"Specifically I've been told black lotus cards are very valuable."
July 7, 2016 2:52 PM Subscribe
Martin Shkreli - He of the 5,500x price increase for a lifesaving drug; he who is the only person on Earth with access to The Wu-Tang Clain's Once Upon a Time in Shaolin - has a new hobby - Magic: The Gathering!
When a fellow reddit user asked if he would actually be playing, he responded "probably just collect. i can sponsor a player."
When a fellow reddit user asked if he would actually be playing, he responded "probably just collect. i can sponsor a player."
off topic but does anyone have access to an industrial printer and some card stock
i'm new at this website sorry if i posted in the wrong place
posted by griphus at 2:57 PM on July 7, 2016 [90 favorites]
i'm new at this website sorry if i posted in the wrong place
posted by griphus at 2:57 PM on July 7, 2016 [90 favorites]
Yeah when I saw this my first thought was: fake MTG cards and sell 'em to Shkreli. Out-fraud the fraudster.
Isn't he under indictment? Is this what you do when you're waiting for your trial to start?
posted by dis_integration at 2:58 PM on July 7, 2016
Isn't he under indictment? Is this what you do when you're waiting for your trial to start?
posted by dis_integration at 2:58 PM on July 7, 2016
I have some very rare Beanie Babies (talking Inch the Worm with felt antennae rare) should he like to expand his repertoire.
posted by msbutah at 2:59 PM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by msbutah at 2:59 PM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
I hear walking directly into the sea is very raw and valuable, and an exclusive and hard to get experience.
posted by Artw at 3:02 PM on July 7, 2016 [54 favorites]
posted by Artw at 3:02 PM on July 7, 2016 [54 favorites]
Maybe we can get him to sell off his license for Daraprim to help pay for rare MTG cards.
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:03 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by Greg_Ace at 3:03 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Quick, somebody sell him a Blacker Lotus!
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 3:05 PM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 3:05 PM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
I've got some first edition pokemon cards he can have.
(If I knew how much some of those original Magic Cards would go for now, I would've bought them when they were in the low hundreds in the 90s).
posted by drezdn at 3:08 PM on July 7, 2016
(If I knew how much some of those original Magic Cards would go for now, I would've bought them when they were in the low hundreds in the 90s).
posted by drezdn at 3:08 PM on July 7, 2016
And expensive, Artw! I hear you have to pay MetaFilter users $100,000 USD *each* just to get access!
posted by epj at 3:22 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by epj at 3:22 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Ugh, why did I trade my black bordered black lotus for two large pizzas? It was a shitty deal even in 1994.
posted by pullayup at 3:23 PM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
posted by pullayup at 3:23 PM on July 7, 2016 [14 favorites]
Does anyone remember Black Lotus burnings at cons back in the mid/late 90s? Part of that bizarre anti-WOTC sentiment among the D&D playing community.
This is more annoying.
posted by howfar at 3:39 PM on July 7, 2016
This is more annoying.
posted by howfar at 3:39 PM on July 7, 2016
Wouldn't destroying Black Lotuses just drive the value UP?
posted by griphus at 3:57 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by griphus at 3:57 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
fuck you martin shkreli you can't have my mana drain
unless you offered substantially over the market value
it's in really good condition
martin call me
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:59 PM on July 7, 2016 [23 favorites]
unless you offered substantially over the market value
it's in really good condition
martin call me
posted by prize bull octorok at 3:59 PM on July 7, 2016 [23 favorites]
The community actually summoned this troll. A week or so ago, someone started buying out high value cards on the Reserve List. This is a list of old cards that Wizards of the Coast promised to never reprint after an early set of reprints was overprinted and threatened confidence in the value of these collectibles.
So cards like Moat, Gaea's Cradle, and Lion's Eye Diamond that play strong roles in eternal formats started disappearing from the marketplace, causing their value to skyrocket. The man behind these buyouts took credit for it on Facebook and Youtube, and gave an interview explaining his actions.
It's smart capitalism, but not something that really engenders good will. But people got very angry that this guy was making older expensive formats even more expensive, and they quickly dubbed him Magic's Martin Shkreli. Well, speak of the devil and Google will Alert him to your presence.
Buying up a few Black Lotuses isn't going to be a problem, those are so far out of almost anyone's reach that it won't have much impact. Just hope Shkreli moves on before he gets smart as to what could actually harm the game. There are still a lot of dual lands out there, but a deep pocketed investor could actually deeply wound the slowly dying Legacy format if they knew what to snap up.
posted by yellowbinder at 4:04 PM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
So cards like Moat, Gaea's Cradle, and Lion's Eye Diamond that play strong roles in eternal formats started disappearing from the marketplace, causing their value to skyrocket. The man behind these buyouts took credit for it on Facebook and Youtube, and gave an interview explaining his actions.
It's smart capitalism, but not something that really engenders good will. But people got very angry that this guy was making older expensive formats even more expensive, and they quickly dubbed him Magic's Martin Shkreli. Well, speak of the devil and Google will Alert him to your presence.
Buying up a few Black Lotuses isn't going to be a problem, those are so far out of almost anyone's reach that it won't have much impact. Just hope Shkreli moves on before he gets smart as to what could actually harm the game. There are still a lot of dual lands out there, but a deep pocketed investor could actually deeply wound the slowly dying Legacy format if they knew what to snap up.
posted by yellowbinder at 4:04 PM on July 7, 2016 [10 favorites]
Next up, he's going to discover Beanie Babies.
posted by Catblack at 4:24 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by Catblack at 4:24 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wouldn't destroying Black Lotuses just drive the value UP?
Well, yeah. It was fucking ridiculous. The idea floating around at the time was that CCGs (Magic in particular) were so addictive that they caused RPG clubs to stop playing RPGs because everyone wanted to play them instead. I don't think it was ever true, but it was a pervasive narrative for a while.
posted by howfar at 4:30 PM on July 7, 2016
Well, yeah. It was fucking ridiculous. The idea floating around at the time was that CCGs (Magic in particular) were so addictive that they caused RPG clubs to stop playing RPGs because everyone wanted to play them instead. I don't think it was ever true, but it was a pervasive narrative for a while.
posted by howfar at 4:30 PM on July 7, 2016
Dude, POGS!
posted by Artw at 4:40 PM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:40 PM on July 7, 2016 [16 favorites]
Dan Bock already did this with Black Lotuses a few years ago. He still has at least a hundred, probably substantially more. I really don't understand why Shkreli is wasting his time with this--realistically, the amount of potential profit is negligible for someone like him, and the time and hassle seems pretty extensive.
I'm not sure if we've reached Peak Idiocy in the Magic financial markets, but we're definitely heading there.
posted by Slinga at 4:44 PM on July 7, 2016
I'm not sure if we've reached Peak Idiocy in the Magic financial markets, but we're definitely heading there.
posted by Slinga at 4:44 PM on July 7, 2016
Thank you MetaFilter, for providing the context to my preferred Canadian sketch comedy.
posted by sysinfo at 4:50 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
posted by sysinfo at 4:50 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Gibson's really outdoing himself with this one. I can wait to see what happens in the next book of the trilogy.
posted by humboldt32 at 4:54 PM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
posted by humboldt32 at 4:54 PM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
Frankly, I'm still not entirely convinced that we aren't living in one of the pre-Jackpot stubs that didn't quite pan out.
posted by sysinfo at 5:07 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
posted by sysinfo at 5:07 PM on July 7, 2016 [7 favorites]
the amount of potential profit is negligible for someone like him, and the time and hassle seems pretty extensive.
Wasn't there something to the theory that he's not actually rich, just incredibly highly leveraged? I thought I read that last time he surfaced.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Wasn't there something to the theory that he's not actually rich, just incredibly highly leveraged? I thought I read that last time he surfaced.
posted by T.D. Strange at 5:18 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
He couldn't have bought the Wu-Tang album if they didn't want to sell it to them.
posted by 1adam12 at 5:23 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by 1adam12 at 5:23 PM on July 7, 2016
Well, yeah. It was fucking ridiculous. The idea floating around at the time was that CCGs (Magic in particular) were so addictive that they caused RPG clubs to stop playing RPGs because everyone wanted to play them instead. I don't think it was ever true, but it was a pervasive narrative for a while.
I remain convinced that WoW sucked a LOT of the air out of the room of video games for a couple of years there.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:30 PM on July 7, 2016
I remain convinced that WoW sucked a LOT of the air out of the room of video games for a couple of years there.
posted by Pope Guilty at 5:30 PM on July 7, 2016
Man, fuck this guy.
posted by boo_radley at 5:47 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by boo_radley at 5:47 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Well, yeah. It was fucking ridiculous. The idea floating around at the time was that CCGs (Magic in particular) were so addictive that they caused RPG clubs to stop playing RPGs because everyone wanted to play them instead. I don't think it was ever true, but it was a pervasive narrative for a while.
Magic colon et cetera was so popular for a moment that my small town coffee shop hangout instituted a ban on all card game playing, which had the weird side effect of really popularizing chess among the lowlifes and slackers who had become accustomed to playing games until sunup instead of the previous custom of small talk, shit talking, and long silences.
posted by rodlymight at 5:53 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Magic colon et cetera was so popular for a moment that my small town coffee shop hangout instituted a ban on all card game playing, which had the weird side effect of really popularizing chess among the lowlifes and slackers who had become accustomed to playing games until sunup instead of the previous custom of small talk, shit talking, and long silences.
posted by rodlymight at 5:53 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Well, yeah. It was fucking ridiculous. The idea floating around at the time was that CCGs (Magic in particular) were so addictive that they caused RPG clubs to stop playing RPGs because everyone wanted to play them instead. I don't think it was ever true, but it was a pervasive narrative for a while.
It was true for a while within my gaming group but it didn't last long. Speculation over cards killed the game in a year. At that point it was not about buying a booster here and there, it was buying whole boxes of card. it became way too expensive to play. And i'm talking about a time when a Black Lotus would set you up for 200$ maybe...
posted by SageLeVoid at 6:20 PM on July 7, 2016
It was true for a while within my gaming group but it didn't last long. Speculation over cards killed the game in a year. At that point it was not about buying a booster here and there, it was buying whole boxes of card. it became way too expensive to play. And i'm talking about a time when a Black Lotus would set you up for 200$ maybe...
posted by SageLeVoid at 6:20 PM on July 7, 2016
I've been playing Commander almost exclusively now and boy that format really takes the game back from Richest Kid Wins.
posted by griphus at 6:24 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by griphus at 6:24 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I have this small voice of hope in my head that says maybe Shkreli is trolling the whole idea of market value, and that good places to do it so far have been hedge funds, pharmaceuticals, and now magic cards.
That doesn't exclude the possibility that he's an asshole. He could be doing that and still be an asshole.
But if you really wanted to get a LOT of people angry about the way medications (or hedge funds, or magic cards, or what-have-you) are priced, I can't think of a better way to do it than what he did.
Maybe that's to say he's a parody speculator.
posted by Pickman's Next Top Model at 6:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
That doesn't exclude the possibility that he's an asshole. He could be doing that and still be an asshole.
But if you really wanted to get a LOT of people angry about the way medications (or hedge funds, or magic cards, or what-have-you) are priced, I can't think of a better way to do it than what he did.
Maybe that's to say he's a parody speculator.
posted by Pickman's Next Top Model at 6:29 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
Personally, as an avid Magic player, I hope he buys up every Reserved List card in all available quantity. Maybe then Wizards will realize what a bullshit overreaction establishing that list actually was.
Honestly, I'd love to see the secondary market completely tank to the point where all the cards are worth only the paper they're printed on. Why, you ask? Because it's a fucking game that should be played!
posted by nickthetourist at 6:30 PM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
Honestly, I'd love to see the secondary market completely tank to the point where all the cards are worth only the paper they're printed on. Why, you ask? Because it's a fucking game that should be played!
posted by nickthetourist at 6:30 PM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]
Commander really is the Magic ideal for me. You get to narrow in on whatever odd interaction or mechanic or tribe or flavour or art quirk you like. Someone has a deck where every card art features a woman looking left. Creatures-sitting-in-chairs tribal is a thing. Or you can build something totally broken. And you get to fight a few friends who are trying to win their favourite way. Table politics and the luck of the draw mean that no one is guaranteed a win based on how expensive or unfair their deck is, and if they do manage to go off you'll get em next time.
My playgroup has mostly abandoned Commander now which is sad, with players preferring expressing dominance in high powered cube drafts to the alternate durdling and explosiveness of EDH. I get my fill online mostly but really need to find more Toronto players.
posted by yellowbinder at 6:37 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
My playgroup has mostly abandoned Commander now which is sad, with players preferring expressing dominance in high powered cube drafts to the alternate durdling and explosiveness of EDH. I get my fill online mostly but really need to find more Toronto players.
posted by yellowbinder at 6:37 PM on July 7, 2016 [5 favorites]
My playgroup has mostly abandoned Commander now which is sad, with players preferring expressing dominance in high powered cube drafts to the alternate durdling and explosiveness of EDH. I get my fill online mostly but really need to find more Toronto players.Commander
high powered cube drafts
alternate durdling
You ever have that moment where you realize that you can't pretend any more that your past experiences with a Thing provide any meaningful knowledge about the current state of that Thing?
posted by Tomorrowful at 7:16 PM on July 7, 2016 [27 favorites]
Honestly, I'd love to see the secondary market completely tank to the point where all the cards are worth only the paper they're printed on. Why, you ask? Because it's a fucking game that should be played!
Yeah, on the one hand #mtgfinance bullshit is annoying and this huge bubble we're in makes it really hard to just play the game. On the other hand, if it gets pushed hard enough, fast enough, hopefully it will pop or Wizards will be forced to do something about it (probably not though).
posted by ODiV at 8:40 PM on July 7, 2016
Yeah, on the one hand #mtgfinance bullshit is annoying and this huge bubble we're in makes it really hard to just play the game. On the other hand, if it gets pushed hard enough, fast enough, hopefully it will pop or Wizards will be forced to do something about it (probably not though).
posted by ODiV at 8:40 PM on July 7, 2016
You ever have that moment where you realize that you can't pretend any more that your past experiences with a Thing provide any meaningful knowledge about the current state of that Thing?
I've been having the very same thought about the very same thing recently. I was an M:tG junkie in the 90s, having gotten in right after Beta came out, and hadn't really played since, oh... Mirage, I think? I sold off most of my cards probably 15 years ago and don't know if I even got more than I paid for them over time. Most of my friends stopped playing at about the same time I did, and I started hanging out with gamers with a different focus.
But a number of players at my current job have started an evening league, and intrigued at the thought of getting back in to it I've done some poking at the current state of the game. And uh... what is all this? I don't understand it... Uh huh. I see. Interesting. And these "blocks"... uh huh. Ok, cool. Oh, by the way, what's a Black Lotus worth these days? If I picked up a couple of 'em when they were a few hundred, would I... what? They're... WHAT?
I just don't know, man. I just don't know.
posted by jammer at 8:41 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
I've been having the very same thought about the very same thing recently. I was an M:tG junkie in the 90s, having gotten in right after Beta came out, and hadn't really played since, oh... Mirage, I think? I sold off most of my cards probably 15 years ago and don't know if I even got more than I paid for them over time. Most of my friends stopped playing at about the same time I did, and I started hanging out with gamers with a different focus.
But a number of players at my current job have started an evening league, and intrigued at the thought of getting back in to it I've done some poking at the current state of the game. And uh... what is all this? I don't understand it... Uh huh. I see. Interesting. And these "blocks"... uh huh. Ok, cool. Oh, by the way, what's a Black Lotus worth these days? If I picked up a couple of 'em when they were a few hundred, would I... what? They're... WHAT?
I just don't know, man. I just don't know.
posted by jammer at 8:41 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
So, wait, I don't understand. This is a card game, right? With cards, little slips of paper?
Can't you just take card-stock, cut it, and then write "Black Lotus!" or whatever that business is on the card and then play the game as it was intended to be played? I'm not in favor of piracy, but it certainly seems like there's a simple samizdat solution here. Or is scarcity part of the very foundation of the game?
This isn't snark, I genuinely don't quite understand.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 9:58 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Can't you just take card-stock, cut it, and then write "Black Lotus!" or whatever that business is on the card and then play the game as it was intended to be played? I'm not in favor of piracy, but it certainly seems like there's a simple samizdat solution here. Or is scarcity part of the very foundation of the game?
This isn't snark, I genuinely don't quite understand.
posted by I EAT TAPAS at 9:58 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Or is scarcity part of the very foundation of the game?
Yes. It's a collectible card game. Hence, cards simultaneously have the properties of game tokens and trading cards.
posted by howfar at 10:05 PM on July 7, 2016
Yes. It's a collectible card game. Hence, cards simultaneously have the properties of game tokens and trading cards.
posted by howfar at 10:05 PM on July 7, 2016
Of course there is a well received board game which has as its theme a well received collectable card game after market.
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 10:07 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by not_that_epiphanius at 10:07 PM on July 7, 2016
If it helps, I EAT TAPAS, imagine a variant of poker where each person uses their own deck. Now imagine that the decks do not all have to have the same cards in them. One unlucky bastard could have a deck full of 4s and 7s and whatnot, while another guy could come with a deck that has 20 aces in it. The catch is that when you buy cards, you don't know what you're going to get. It's just like baseball cards. You buy a foil-wrapped set of cards which could have an ace in it, but it could just be a bunch of 3s and 4s. And now imagine that in addition to rare aces, there are really rare super aces, which can beat regular aces.
So to get a king or an ace or a super ace you either need to be really lucky (buying a silver foil bag that happens to contain one) or really rich (buying one that someone else has found and is selling).
So, at its simplest, like that (yes, it's far more complex and good players with bad cards can beat bad players with good cards, but I think it gets across the basic idea).
Now, that being said, if the people you're playing with are cool with it, yeah, you could totally make your own Black Lotus or whatever. I mean, you couldn't just print it on card stock, because people could totally tell which card in your hand is the Black Lotus, but you could cross out "Weakling Peasant" on a proper card and write "Black Lotus" instead, provided that the person you are playing with is cool with that.
posted by Bugbread at 10:15 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
So to get a king or an ace or a super ace you either need to be really lucky (buying a silver foil bag that happens to contain one) or really rich (buying one that someone else has found and is selling).
So, at its simplest, like that (yes, it's far more complex and good players with bad cards can beat bad players with good cards, but I think it gets across the basic idea).
Now, that being said, if the people you're playing with are cool with it, yeah, you could totally make your own Black Lotus or whatever. I mean, you couldn't just print it on card stock, because people could totally tell which card in your hand is the Black Lotus, but you could cross out "Weakling Peasant" on a proper card and write "Black Lotus" instead, provided that the person you are playing with is cool with that.
posted by Bugbread at 10:15 PM on July 7, 2016 [4 favorites]
Can't you just take card-stock, cut it, and then write "Black Lotus!" or whatever that business is on the card and then play the game as it was intended to be played?
Yes, you could do this, but only for the most casual kitchen table Magic. If you want to play in sanctioned tournaments you have to use the official printed cards. A lot of people I know will play with a proxy card in place of the official version because either A) they simply can't afford the card, or B) they haven't found a copy of the card yet.
Or is scarcity part of the very foundation of the game?
Concerning scarcity, different cards have different rarity within a set - common, uncommon, rare, mythic rare (these are much more recent, but have been around for 8 years or so). Generally speaking, the more rare a card is the more valuable it is.
The big issue with the Reserved List is that it was established many years ago when 'collectors' whined about reprinted cards devaluing their collections. What these 'collectors' either forget or fail to realize is that the first few sets of Magic cards were such short print that they never met demand which resulted in prices being artificially high. When a bunch of them got reprinted their inflated values plummeted*.
The RL also contains cards that are considered to be far too powerful within the game to be reprinted. They are, however, usable in a format called Vintage. If you want to play Vintage competitively, you need to be able to acquire these cards which can run you several thousand dollars. Up until recently, many sanctioned events allowed a certain number of proxy cards in a deck which made the format more accessible to more people, but that loophole was closed a few months ago.
Here's an example of a Vintage deck: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12874&d=274840&f=VI
You can see the estimated $$$$ value under the yellow TCGPlayer box. You can also see individual card prices by clicking on the card names.
posted by nickthetourist at 10:22 PM on July 7, 2016
Yes, you could do this, but only for the most casual kitchen table Magic. If you want to play in sanctioned tournaments you have to use the official printed cards. A lot of people I know will play with a proxy card in place of the official version because either A) they simply can't afford the card, or B) they haven't found a copy of the card yet.
Or is scarcity part of the very foundation of the game?
Concerning scarcity, different cards have different rarity within a set - common, uncommon, rare, mythic rare (these are much more recent, but have been around for 8 years or so). Generally speaking, the more rare a card is the more valuable it is.
The big issue with the Reserved List is that it was established many years ago when 'collectors' whined about reprinted cards devaluing their collections. What these 'collectors' either forget or fail to realize is that the first few sets of Magic cards were such short print that they never met demand which resulted in prices being artificially high. When a bunch of them got reprinted their inflated values plummeted*.
The RL also contains cards that are considered to be far too powerful within the game to be reprinted. They are, however, usable in a format called Vintage. If you want to play Vintage competitively, you need to be able to acquire these cards which can run you several thousand dollars. Up until recently, many sanctioned events allowed a certain number of proxy cards in a deck which made the format more accessible to more people, but that loophole was closed a few months ago.
Here's an example of a Vintage deck: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=12874&d=274840&f=VI
You can see the estimated $$$$ value under the yellow TCGPlayer box. You can also see individual card prices by clicking on the card names.
posted by nickthetourist at 10:22 PM on July 7, 2016
Next up, he's going to discover Beanie Babies.
Said while looking at basement full of old Beanie Babies.
posted by boilermonster at 10:25 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
Said while looking at basement full of old Beanie Babies.
posted by boilermonster at 10:25 PM on July 7, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's weird how he goes on Reddit and just talks to people like he's a regular person and not Satan. And everyone is like "hey Satan, what are you doing here shouldn't you be in prison?" And he's like "Who me? NO."
And how he just brushes off all the mean comments and keeps going trying to try to have normal conversations like he thinks being universally loathed is just a normal thing that happens to regular people, and not any kind of indication that maybe you need to stop being Satan.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 10:51 PM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
And how he just brushes off all the mean comments and keeps going trying to try to have normal conversations like he thinks being universally loathed is just a normal thing that happens to regular people, and not any kind of indication that maybe you need to stop being Satan.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 10:51 PM on July 7, 2016 [20 favorites]
Magic: The Gathering, having been around for almost two and a half decades, has a mind boggling number of unique named cards of different rarities. Wikipedia says "almost 15,000", but their citation for that is two years old, and several more sets have been released in the meantime.
Tournament formats cut down the pool of cards to make things more manageable. The most popular formats are ones that just deal with cards from the current years sets, and cards from the last few years of sets. The game's designers target these styles of play. Often the power of a card comes not from the rules and game mechanics on the individual card, but how that card works together with other cards it's being played with. The limited pool of cards allowed for a tournament cuts down on the potential interactions, and if the designers make a mistake by putting out a card that's overpowered because of an interaction they didn't foresee, the tournament scene only has to live with that mistake for a few years at most (and the developers have a chance to try to correct it by putting out new cards that promote a counter-strategy in the next year's set).
The Vintage format, however, throws ALL that out the window. Nearly every card is available (a few early cards dealt with ownership of cards changing hands in the course of a game, and since tournament play requires players to have a consistent deck with a minimum number of cards from match to match, they're simply incompatible), and so the potential combo interactions are beyond staggering. But it's the fact that the design mistakes can't get rotated out that makes certain cards so valuable for the Vintage format. In early iterations of the game, the designers themselves didn't fully understand how the game worked, so there were a lot of mistakes.
For instance, Black Lotus. Magic games have a certain rhythm to them. You can only play weak cards on your first turn, but as your resources build, your options expand. An early Black Lotus can let you play something on turn one that you shouldn't have access to until turn four. This had such an effect on the game that even back the first tournaments back in '93-'94, Black Lotus was a card that got restricted to one per deck. It wasn't until later that the developers and playerbase realized that fast mana sources such as Black Lotus and other cards like the Moxes were only the foundation to other strategies for effectively winning the game in as few turns as possible. Games in the Vintage format typically have the feel of a wild west high noon duel played with tactical nukes.
And every so often the designers will toss a card into the latest set specifically designed to not have much interaction with the cards used in the more recent formats, but will interact with some card published 8 sets back that results in a degenerate combo that shakes up the Vintage format and keeps things interesting. Even better are the times this happens by accident.
posted by radwolf76 at 11:14 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
Tournament formats cut down the pool of cards to make things more manageable. The most popular formats are ones that just deal with cards from the current years sets, and cards from the last few years of sets. The game's designers target these styles of play. Often the power of a card comes not from the rules and game mechanics on the individual card, but how that card works together with other cards it's being played with. The limited pool of cards allowed for a tournament cuts down on the potential interactions, and if the designers make a mistake by putting out a card that's overpowered because of an interaction they didn't foresee, the tournament scene only has to live with that mistake for a few years at most (and the developers have a chance to try to correct it by putting out new cards that promote a counter-strategy in the next year's set).
The Vintage format, however, throws ALL that out the window. Nearly every card is available (a few early cards dealt with ownership of cards changing hands in the course of a game, and since tournament play requires players to have a consistent deck with a minimum number of cards from match to match, they're simply incompatible), and so the potential combo interactions are beyond staggering. But it's the fact that the design mistakes can't get rotated out that makes certain cards so valuable for the Vintage format. In early iterations of the game, the designers themselves didn't fully understand how the game worked, so there were a lot of mistakes.
For instance, Black Lotus. Magic games have a certain rhythm to them. You can only play weak cards on your first turn, but as your resources build, your options expand. An early Black Lotus can let you play something on turn one that you shouldn't have access to until turn four. This had such an effect on the game that even back the first tournaments back in '93-'94, Black Lotus was a card that got restricted to one per deck. It wasn't until later that the developers and playerbase realized that fast mana sources such as Black Lotus and other cards like the Moxes were only the foundation to other strategies for effectively winning the game in as few turns as possible. Games in the Vintage format typically have the feel of a wild west high noon duel played with tactical nukes.
And every so often the designers will toss a card into the latest set specifically designed to not have much interaction with the cards used in the more recent formats, but will interact with some card published 8 sets back that results in a degenerate combo that shakes up the Vintage format and keeps things interesting. Even better are the times this happens by accident.
posted by radwolf76 at 11:14 PM on July 7, 2016 [6 favorites]
The first thing I ever sold on eBay was my Magic cards. I had stuff from the second print.. beta was it? Up to Ice Age or whatever it was. I was losing interest at that point. If I am remembering the amount right, it was over 4 figures but now... well I do not want to think about what it was probably worth now. Dozens of dual lands, lots of Legends stuff (I sucked because I was obsessed with trying to get the big dragons out just because), a few cards like ancestral recall (x3 iirc) 1 lotus, a time walk and time vault or two, one of each mox. The cards were in nearly like new condition. I dunno, maybe not worth much more than what I got but I do have the occasional thought about if I sold too soon. I'm smart enough not to look them up though just in case. All told it was 2 5,000 count card boxes with magic cards (though not full to capacity as all of the good cards were in plastic sleeves which took some space and had some foam bits in there as dividers as well. Anywho. I liked it when I played but while I recall card names, I don't really remember what most of them did. I recall Shivan Dragon being used a lot but I can not remember the stats or why it was good.
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 11:27 PM on July 7, 2016
posted by weretable and the undead chairs at 11:27 PM on July 7, 2016
Are you planning to short him or something? I don't really know what "publicity" means in this context, I guess or why it's "cool" that Shkreli's getting it for free. It's not like he's a product like Magic: The Gathering, available at your neighborhood game or hobby shop, and online!
Eldritch Moon prerelease events are happening July 16-17!
posted by ODiV at 11:28 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Eldritch Moon prerelease events are happening July 16-17!
posted by ODiV at 11:28 PM on July 7, 2016 [2 favorites]
Shkreli is a moron the smart money is in tulips.
posted by um at 12:02 AM on July 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
posted by um at 12:02 AM on July 8, 2016 [10 favorites]
So, at its simplest, like that (yes, it's far more complex and good players with bad cards can beat bad players with good cards, but I think it gets across the basic idea).
It doesn't quite get across that competitive players are generally playing against other players who have decks of similar quality - at any point in time there will be a lot of people playing minor variations of the same few basic deck designs in fact. So it's less "pay to win" and more "pay to get over the bar to be a legit competitor."
These particular ultra-expensive cards are out-of-print cards from the earliest days of the game, and only even legal in special tournament formats. As mentioned above they are powerful cards and collector's items, which the company that makes the game promised never to reprint. As a result a.) the formats in which they are played are necessarily fairly niche but b.) they have gained value over a good two decades regardless.
posted by atoxyl at 12:41 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
It doesn't quite get across that competitive players are generally playing against other players who have decks of similar quality - at any point in time there will be a lot of people playing minor variations of the same few basic deck designs in fact. So it's less "pay to win" and more "pay to get over the bar to be a legit competitor."
These particular ultra-expensive cards are out-of-print cards from the earliest days of the game, and only even legal in special tournament formats. As mentioned above they are powerful cards and collector's items, which the company that makes the game promised never to reprint. As a result a.) the formats in which they are played are necessarily fairly niche but b.) they have gained value over a good two decades regardless.
posted by atoxyl at 12:41 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Dozens of dual lands, lots of Legends stuff (I sucked because I was obsessed with trying to get the big dragons out just because), a few cards like ancestral recall (x3 iirc) 1 lotus, a time walk and time vault or two, one of each mox.
I won't spoil it exactly but... yeah, even compared to what it was worth then. (I lost some stuff that's worth good money now, if not as much). The funny thing is Shivan Dragon is worth fuck all (well an alpha/beta one probably has some collector appeal).
posted by atoxyl at 12:49 AM on July 8, 2016
I won't spoil it exactly but... yeah, even compared to what it was worth then. (I lost some stuff that's worth good money now, if not as much). The funny thing is Shivan Dragon is worth fuck all (well an alpha/beta one probably has some collector appeal).
posted by atoxyl at 12:49 AM on July 8, 2016
I used to really like the sticks of dusty stale gum that came with Magic: The Gathering cards.
posted by chavenet at 3:35 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by chavenet at 3:35 AM on July 8, 2016
Wait, I've only ever played Magic with friends' decks, so I can't tell: are you kidding, or did/do Magic packs contain gum?
posted by Bugbread at 4:50 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by Bugbread at 4:50 AM on July 8, 2016
There were a pair of official parody sets; head designer Mark Rosewater has said he planned to include gum in them but the idea got quashed for one reason or another. The only TCG gum I'm aware of was in the Star Trek game's Fajo Collection, a limited edition box set of rare and wacky oddities.
posted by yellowbinder at 5:58 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by yellowbinder at 5:58 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Commander
high powered cube drafts
alternate durdling
And to clarify haha:
Commander is a 100 card singleton format built around a legendary creature of your choice. Its colours determine what colours your deck can be, and you always have access to cast it as though it was in your hand.
A cube is a selection of cards, usually 360 or 720 unique cards, that has been curated by its builder. Think of it as building your own set like you would find in booster packs, only you have complete control over every card and every available archetype. You get to put your environment designer hat on, and make the card pool as powerful or not as you wish. These cards are then drafted like you would draft a normal set.
Durdling is a slang term for spending a lot of time and effort and not really accomplishing anything significant. "I spent all my time durdling around with my Divining Top while my opponent resolved Ulamog." "My draft deck is kind of fun but it's super durdly, I don't really know how it'll win."
posted by yellowbinder at 6:08 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
high powered cube drafts
alternate durdling
And to clarify haha:
Commander is a 100 card singleton format built around a legendary creature of your choice. Its colours determine what colours your deck can be, and you always have access to cast it as though it was in your hand.
A cube is a selection of cards, usually 360 or 720 unique cards, that has been curated by its builder. Think of it as building your own set like you would find in booster packs, only you have complete control over every card and every available archetype. You get to put your environment designer hat on, and make the card pool as powerful or not as you wish. These cards are then drafted like you would draft a normal set.
Durdling is a slang term for spending a lot of time and effort and not really accomplishing anything significant. "I spent all my time durdling around with my Divining Top while my opponent resolved Ulamog." "My draft deck is kind of fun but it's super durdly, I don't really know how it'll win."
posted by yellowbinder at 6:08 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Is the black lotus/channel/fireball combo still legal in Vintage? I mean yeah, it's rare to have those cards in your opening hand, but it is an instant kill. I knew a guy with a (blatantly illegal) 8 card deck that had just this combination and nothing else. It was amusing.
(My magic cards are somewhere are my mom's house. I'll find them someday, sell the three valuable cards and then give the rest away.)
posted by Hactar at 7:37 AM on July 8, 2016
(My magic cards are somewhere are my mom's house. I'll find them someday, sell the three valuable cards and then give the rest away.)
posted by Hactar at 7:37 AM on July 8, 2016
Personally, as an avid Magic player, I hope he buys up every Reserved List card in all available quantity. Maybe then Wizards will realize what a bullshit overreaction establishing that list actually was.
Could not agree more. The RL has been a ridiculous creation since day 1, and illustrates a completely asinine few of how collectibles work.
Reprints are not originals. A beta edition of Birds of Paradise costs a fortune, while a 10th edition printing is chump change. Just like how a reprint of Spider-Man #1 or whatever is worth very little.
posted by Dark Messiah at 7:45 AM on July 8, 2016
Could not agree more. The RL has been a ridiculous creation since day 1, and illustrates a completely asinine few of how collectibles work.
Reprints are not originals. A beta edition of Birds of Paradise costs a fortune, while a 10th edition printing is chump change. Just like how a reprint of Spider-Man #1 or whatever is worth very little.
posted by Dark Messiah at 7:45 AM on July 8, 2016
So are prices based purely on rarity, or does power come into it as well? Or is it just a secondary effect -- the overpowered ones don't get remade, so they're rarer?
posted by Etrigan at 7:54 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by Etrigan at 7:54 AM on July 8, 2016
I still play Shandalar on PC.
"oh, you just beat a Mind Stealer? He'll happily duplicate any card in your deck, including the Big 9 rares that you scammed out of a dungeon, and since you bought the perk that eliminates duplicate restrictions in your deck, have fun melting the rest of the game."
Sadly, an Unglued / Unhinged deck is somewhat beyond the realm of PC simulation.
posted by delfin at 8:22 AM on July 8, 2016
"oh, you just beat a Mind Stealer? He'll happily duplicate any card in your deck, including the Big 9 rares that you scammed out of a dungeon, and since you bought the perk that eliminates duplicate restrictions in your deck, have fun melting the rest of the game."
Sadly, an Unglued / Unhinged deck is somewhat beyond the realm of PC simulation.
posted by delfin at 8:22 AM on July 8, 2016
So are prices based purely on rarity, or does power come into it as well? Or is it just a secondary effect -- the overpowered ones don't get remade, so they're rarer?
Power is definitely key, there's a ton of shitty cards like Narwhal on the Reserve List that will never be worth anything. But anything on there that does see casual or tournament play will have value and be a target for speculation. Cards that aren't on the Reserve List can be reprinted, in fact they just printed a set called Eternal Masters that has a lot of valuable old cards in it. They are careful to limit the printing of such products though, so even with new supply the prices generally don't go down that much.
For more recently printed cards, value is all about power, with a multiplier based on the cards rarity and supply level. It's pretty rare that a card in Modern (all cards released since a card border change in 2003) or Standard (all cards released in the last 18 months, roughly) is more than $50, though it does happen.
What do dual lands go for now a days anyways?
Revised duals range from I'd say $50 - $300. The ones that produce blue mana are the expensive ones.
posted by yellowbinder at 8:23 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Power is definitely key, there's a ton of shitty cards like Narwhal on the Reserve List that will never be worth anything. But anything on there that does see casual or tournament play will have value and be a target for speculation. Cards that aren't on the Reserve List can be reprinted, in fact they just printed a set called Eternal Masters that has a lot of valuable old cards in it. They are careful to limit the printing of such products though, so even with new supply the prices generally don't go down that much.
For more recently printed cards, value is all about power, with a multiplier based on the cards rarity and supply level. It's pretty rare that a card in Modern (all cards released since a card border change in 2003) or Standard (all cards released in the last 18 months, roughly) is more than $50, though it does happen.
What do dual lands go for now a days anyways?
Revised duals range from I'd say $50 - $300. The ones that produce blue mana are the expensive ones.
posted by yellowbinder at 8:23 AM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
Love this development! I hope Trump is considering him for the VP slot!
posted by ph00dz at 8:53 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
posted by ph00dz at 8:53 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
My theory is, when you win at Magic, you get to keep your opponents' cards.
posted by bigbigdog at 9:07 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by bigbigdog at 9:07 AM on July 8, 2016
I really don't understand why Shkreli is wasting his time with this--realistically, the amount of potential profit is negligible for someone like him, and the time and hassle seems pretty extensive.
Much as with Trump I expect it's a desire to have people keep talking about him/envying him. And here we are.
posted by emjaybee at 9:15 AM on July 8, 2016
Much as with Trump I expect it's a desire to have people keep talking about him/envying him. And here we are.
posted by emjaybee at 9:15 AM on July 8, 2016
I don't know what Vintage looks like right now but it has in its history has had combo decks much scarier than Channel-Fireball. Well except maybe early early versions before people played with the four-of rule.
posted by atoxyl at 10:07 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by atoxyl at 10:07 AM on July 8, 2016
Or I mean there are better ways to defend yourself now so it's not exactly the same thing. I just mean Channel is legal (I don't think it's even restricted now but I don't remember?) in Vintage because it's not even good compared to other combo cards.
posted by atoxyl at 10:10 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by atoxyl at 10:10 AM on July 8, 2016
Yeah Lotus/Channel/Fireball is a four card combo (requires a mox or untapped land, and you can't fetch it or you're a point short) that folds to Force of Will. There are much more broken things to do. Everybody in eternal formats is all about Eldrazi these days, which fed at least one of the price spikes that prompted all this.
posted by yellowbinder at 10:16 AM on July 8, 2016
posted by yellowbinder at 10:16 AM on July 8, 2016
martin
i have an unopened original copy of that comic where superman dies
martin call me
posted by Existential Dread at 10:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
i have an unopened original copy of that comic where superman dies
martin call me
posted by Existential Dread at 10:31 AM on July 8, 2016 [7 favorites]
yellowbinder: "The community actually summoned this troll. A week or so ago, someone started buying out high value cards on the Reserve List.
[...]
It's smart capitalism, but not something that really engenders good will. But people got very angry that this guy was making older expensive formats even more expensive, and they quickly dubbed him Magic's Martin Shkreli. Well, speak of the devil and Google will Alert him to your presence."
What if... what if this is a long con? What if the MtG community banded together to perpetrate an incredible caper to fleece Martin Shkreli? A Chisei, Heart of Oceans 11* as it were.
* I don't know anything about MtG and just googled for a card that had "ocean" in the name. Turns out there might only be one?
posted by mhum at 12:43 PM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
[...]
It's smart capitalism, but not something that really engenders good will. But people got very angry that this guy was making older expensive formats even more expensive, and they quickly dubbed him Magic's Martin Shkreli. Well, speak of the devil and Google will Alert him to your presence."
What if... what if this is a long con? What if the MtG community banded together to perpetrate an incredible caper to fleece Martin Shkreli? A Chisei, Heart of Oceans 11* as it were.
* I don't know anything about MtG and just googled for a card that had "ocean" in the name. Turns out there might only be one?
posted by mhum at 12:43 PM on July 8, 2016 [8 favorites]
Well, that's nice, isn't it?
It's good that young Martin discover an acceptable diversion for his "talents"...something to keep him busy, and out of trouble, and help him socialize with other boys his own age...
posted by littlejohnnyjewel at 3:22 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
It's good that young Martin discover an acceptable diversion for his "talents"...something to keep him busy, and out of trouble, and help him socialize with other boys his own age...
posted by littlejohnnyjewel at 3:22 PM on July 8, 2016 [1 favorite]
My theory is, when you win at Magic, you get to keep your opponents' cards.
The earliest versions of the game rules did actually have something like this in place as an optional rule. After decks had been shuffled,but before starting hands were drawn each player would take the top card from their decks to be put aside in the Ante pile. At the end of the game, the winner took ownership of the Ante pile. There were a handful of cards that were designed to only be used in games that were played for Ante, usually ones that provided some gamebreaker of an effect at the cost of having to place additional cards on the ante pile, risking increased losses if that overpowered card didn't actually win you the game.
Many primary/secondary schools used this to justify outright bans on magic cards, as they felt that this was technically gambling. (Pogs, which were also at their height of popularity around the inception of the Collectible Card Game genre, also suffered the same fate, even though both games drew the idea from marbles, which had been played "for keeps" longer than those school administrators had even been alive.) After a few years, Wizards of the Coast depreciated this game mechanic and stopped printing cards that used it.
posted by radwolf76 at 7:40 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
The earliest versions of the game rules did actually have something like this in place as an optional rule. After decks had been shuffled,but before starting hands were drawn each player would take the top card from their decks to be put aside in the Ante pile. At the end of the game, the winner took ownership of the Ante pile. There were a handful of cards that were designed to only be used in games that were played for Ante, usually ones that provided some gamebreaker of an effect at the cost of having to place additional cards on the ante pile, risking increased losses if that overpowered card didn't actually win you the game.
Many primary/secondary schools used this to justify outright bans on magic cards, as they felt that this was technically gambling. (Pogs, which were also at their height of popularity around the inception of the Collectible Card Game genre, also suffered the same fate, even though both games drew the idea from marbles, which had been played "for keeps" longer than those school administrators had even been alive.) After a few years, Wizards of the Coast depreciated this game mechanic and stopped printing cards that used it.
posted by radwolf76 at 7:40 PM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]
martin
i have your soul
new
(unused but some shrinkage)
martin call me
posted by nfalkner at 8:23 AM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
i have your soul
new
(unused but some shrinkage)
martin call me
posted by nfalkner at 8:23 AM on July 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
martin
there's this thing bitcoin
it tis magical internet money
martin plrz call meh
posted by ostranenie at 8:24 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
there's this thing bitcoin
it tis magical internet money
martin plrz call meh
posted by ostranenie at 8:24 AM on July 10, 2016 [1 favorite]
Oooooh Fallen Empires was such a lie. I came in at Revised and missed the first four expansions, which were all super cool and powerful. In retrospect the Dark wasn't too powerful but it was still really intense and beautiful. So I was so excited at least for Fallen Empires, and then it was complicated underpowered shit that wasn't even worth anything because it was so overprinted even the flower shop was selling packs for half price.
posted by yellowbinder at 8:19 PM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
posted by yellowbinder at 8:19 PM on July 12, 2016 [1 favorite]
Yeah the famous story is that earlier sets were in such high demand that stores would order 10 times what they actually wanted, expecting to only get half of even that lower number. Fallen Empires was when Wizards finally managed to meet the grossly inflated order numbers so the crash was spectacular.
there's a ton of shitty cards like Narwhal on the Reserve List that will never be worth anything
I was apparently wrong on this as someone has bought Narwhal out, I can only assume as some sort of sick joke.
posted by yellowbinder at 8:32 AM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
there's a ton of shitty cards like Narwhal on the Reserve List that will never be worth anything
I was apparently wrong on this as someone has bought Narwhal out, I can only assume as some sort of sick joke.
posted by yellowbinder at 8:32 AM on July 13, 2016 [2 favorites]
Poor, unloved Thallids. :(
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:41 PM on July 13, 2016
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:41 PM on July 13, 2016
Poor, unloved Thallids. :(
Back in the era when Fallen Empires was new and fresh and no one would realize what a glut on the market the set would become, I was doing some trading with someone, and he really really wanted a card from my set that I didn't want to part with. Kept upping his offer though, until what he was putting up for it was worth like $50 more than the card he wanted.
Out of curiosity, I decided to see just how far I could push it, and told him I'd do the trade if he chose a rare card from his set and ate it in front of me. Without missing a beat, he sorted through his longbox until he found a Dingus Egg, tore it up into about six pieces and swallowed it down with some tea. It was then and there that I kicked my pack-a-day habit.
Found out later that the next day, he turned around and copied my idea while doing a trade with another player, except he got to chose two cards from the other guy's set that the other guy had to eat to make the trade happen: Atog and Thallid Devourer (both of which were cards that ate other things in the game). Reportedly the other guy commented "Needs Thallid Dressing," after eating them.
posted by radwolf76 at 12:02 PM on July 14, 2016 [4 favorites]
Back in the era when Fallen Empires was new and fresh and no one would realize what a glut on the market the set would become, I was doing some trading with someone, and he really really wanted a card from my set that I didn't want to part with. Kept upping his offer though, until what he was putting up for it was worth like $50 more than the card he wanted.
Out of curiosity, I decided to see just how far I could push it, and told him I'd do the trade if he chose a rare card from his set and ate it in front of me. Without missing a beat, he sorted through his longbox until he found a Dingus Egg, tore it up into about six pieces and swallowed it down with some tea. It was then and there that I kicked my pack-a-day habit.
Found out later that the next day, he turned around and copied my idea while doing a trade with another player, except he got to chose two cards from the other guy's set that the other guy had to eat to make the trade happen: Atog and Thallid Devourer (both of which were cards that ate other things in the game). Reportedly the other guy commented "Needs Thallid Dressing," after eating them.
posted by radwolf76 at 12:02 PM on July 14, 2016 [4 favorites]
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posted by burgerrr at 2:55 PM on July 7, 2016 [12 favorites]