Prosecutors Taking Tougher Stance in Fraternity Hazing Deaths
May 9, 2017 7:45 AM Subscribe
Prosecutors filed criminal charges on Friday against 18 Penn State fraternity brothers in the death of Timothy Piazza. After downing a dangerous amount of alcohol and suffering severe internal injuries during a fraternity hazing, a 19-year-old college sophomore died. Not long ago, the story might have ended there, except for some hand-wringing and litigation.
The case offers the latest evidence of the harder line prosecutors have started taking when initiation rituals end in death from alcohol or physical abuse. At Baruch College, Northern Illinois University, Fresno State University and elsewhere, fraternity hazing deaths that might once have been labeled regrettable accidents have resulted in criminal charges against students.
The case offers the latest evidence of the harder line prosecutors have started taking when initiation rituals end in death from alcohol or physical abuse. At Baruch College, Northern Illinois University, Fresno State University and elsewhere, fraternity hazing deaths that might once have been labeled regrettable accidents have resulted in criminal charges against students.
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I'm not sure that as a whole society is ethically shifting in some way that's disadvantageous to fraternities. The Penn case stuff is more egregious than usual, with much more evidence than the usual hearsay they have to go on in these cases. As it says in the article, "the increase in prosecutions stems not only from a shift in attitudes but also from the ubiquity of electronic evidence."
Also, I highly recommend not reading the nitty gritty details on the case unless you have to as it is truly heartbreaking.
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:59 AM on May 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm not sure that as a whole society is ethically shifting in some way that's disadvantageous to fraternities. The Penn case stuff is more egregious than usual, with much more evidence than the usual hearsay they have to go on in these cases. As it says in the article, "the increase in prosecutions stems not only from a shift in attitudes but also from the ubiquity of electronic evidence."
Also, I highly recommend not reading the nitty gritty details on the case unless you have to as it is truly heartbreaking.
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:59 AM on May 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
Most biker gang initiations I've heard about are less dangerous and disgusting than what some of these frats do. I can't really imagine wanting to belong to anything that badly.
posted by jonmc at 8:05 AM on May 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by jonmc at 8:05 AM on May 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
> I'm not sure that as a whole society is ethically shifting in some way that's disadvantageous to fraternities.
"And when you're in the cool frat, they let you do it. You can do anything." That's pretty much the pitch, right?
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:06 AM on May 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
"And when you're in the cool frat, they let you do it. You can do anything." That's pretty much the pitch, right?
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:06 AM on May 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
“This is a huge challenge because we don’t own the houses, we don’t own the property, we aren’t the national” organization governing fraternities, Penn State’s president, Eric Barron, said Monday in an interview.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 8:08 AM on May 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 8:08 AM on May 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
> In 2015, one fraternity was found to have kept a secret Facebook page with photos of naked, apparently unconscious women — some taken without their knowledge — and evidence of underage drinking, hazing and drug distribution. No one was prosecuted.
I'll try "Fraternities with connections to the football program" for $100, Alex.
posted by at by at 8:09 AM on May 9, 2017 [29 favorites]
I'll try "Fraternities with connections to the football program" for $100, Alex.
posted by at by at 8:09 AM on May 9, 2017 [29 favorites]
I would prefer simply abolishing fraternities and sororities outright, but some fundamental reforms could make these kinds of crimes much more difficult:
1. Require at least two school employees to be present at all fraternity or sorority meetings.
2. Prohibit fraternities and sororities from owning or leasing housing, on or off-campus.
3. Prohibit fraternities and sororities from providing alcohol directly; all alcohol must be provided by an independent catering company.
“This is a huge challenge because we don’t own the houses, we don’t own the property, we aren’t the national” organization governing fraternities
The simple solution is to make membership in a non-compliant fraternity or sorority an expellable offense, on par with academic dishonesty. Make this very, very clear to all incoming students before they enroll, and require all students to reacknowledge the policy every semester as part of the course enrollment process.
posted by jedicus at 8:13 AM on May 9, 2017 [9 favorites]
1. Require at least two school employees to be present at all fraternity or sorority meetings.
2. Prohibit fraternities and sororities from owning or leasing housing, on or off-campus.
3. Prohibit fraternities and sororities from providing alcohol directly; all alcohol must be provided by an independent catering company.
“This is a huge challenge because we don’t own the houses, we don’t own the property, we aren’t the national” organization governing fraternities
The simple solution is to make membership in a non-compliant fraternity or sorority an expellable offense, on par with academic dishonesty. Make this very, very clear to all incoming students before they enroll, and require all students to reacknowledge the policy every semester as part of the course enrollment process.
posted by jedicus at 8:13 AM on May 9, 2017 [9 favorites]
I was in a fraternity in college and had a really positive experience that I look back on fondly, so I tend to be far less instinctively anti-Greek system than the typical Mefite. However, the linked article actually leaves out some of the real gruesome details of this case. It wasn't just drinking too much that led to this man's death, but cold, cruel neglect; his fraternity brothers determining that literally passing out after suffering a head injury was not worthy of seeking medical attention and could just be slept off. Awful. I'm glad this is being prosecuted.
posted by The Gooch at 8:16 AM on May 9, 2017 [15 favorites]
posted by The Gooch at 8:16 AM on May 9, 2017 [15 favorites]
My heart breaks for this young man's family. 12 hours. I cannot even fathom.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:26 AM on May 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 8:26 AM on May 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
You can't approach cracking down on hazing from a property standpoint without doing undue harm to the many non-alcohol-centered social organizations and other group housing options. Affordable housing for students is already an issue and I've seen efforts to make life more difficult for frats backfire on local communities. Any efforts to curb hazing have to be very alcohol-specific.
In the Penn State case, simple education could have helped the matter. The fraternity members were googling things such as how to recognize concussions and alcohol poisoning and apparently not finding what they needed. Another solution is amnesty for alcohol-related emergencies. Some schools and towns agree not to punish under-aged students or their friends who report alcohol poisoning.
Lastly, there's no way that universities and local law enforcement are not complicit in allowing these events to happen. They know when big events are happening and that under-aged drinking is occurring in excess. They don't need new laws, just to enforce the ones that exist.
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:26 AM on May 9, 2017 [7 favorites]
In the Penn State case, simple education could have helped the matter. The fraternity members were googling things such as how to recognize concussions and alcohol poisoning and apparently not finding what they needed. Another solution is amnesty for alcohol-related emergencies. Some schools and towns agree not to punish under-aged students or their friends who report alcohol poisoning.
Lastly, there's no way that universities and local law enforcement are not complicit in allowing these events to happen. They know when big events are happening and that under-aged drinking is occurring in excess. They don't need new laws, just to enforce the ones that exist.
posted by tofu_crouton at 8:26 AM on May 9, 2017 [7 favorites]
I went to maybe four fraternity parties my freshman year in college, at a major public Midwestern university, and while this is obviously tragic and horrible and very, very wrong, the fact that it happened is not particularly shocking to me. I think the reason nobody did anything is because they have guys passed out and falling down all over the place all the time, so nothing about it really seemed out of the ordinary. Kids think they're immortal, and especially in a fraternity situation where alcohol is the lifeblood of the social scene, they see everyone around them getting pass-out drunk all the time, and there are rarely terrible consequences. They probably didn't really believe that he could die. It's more shocking to me that this kind of excessive drinking and lack of common sense among college students is still considered an outlier. I saw it all the time, and I wasn't even a big partier.
To be clear, I am not saying these fraternity brothers should not be charged with a crime. They should be. Their behavior was reprehensible. But I think it doesn't happen more often mainly because of luck and the resilience of 19 year old bodies.
posted by something something at 8:31 AM on May 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
To be clear, I am not saying these fraternity brothers should not be charged with a crime. They should be. Their behavior was reprehensible. But I think it doesn't happen more often mainly because of luck and the resilience of 19 year old bodies.
posted by something something at 8:31 AM on May 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
jedicus: "The simple solution is to make membership in a non-compliant fraternity or sorority an expellable offense, on par with academic dishonesty. Make this very, very clear to all incoming students before they enroll, and require all students to reacknowledge the policy every semester as part of the course enrollment process."
How would that sort of restriction interact with their rights of free association; at least at public universities?
posted by Mitheral at 8:39 AM on May 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
How would that sort of restriction interact with their rights of free association; at least at public universities?
posted by Mitheral at 8:39 AM on May 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Something really seems to be wrong with Penn State.
posted by aramaic at 8:39 AM on May 9, 2017 [31 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 8:39 AM on May 9, 2017 [31 favorites]
A smaller number have withdrawn formal recognition of all Greek-letter groups, forcing them to operate only off campus and without any official ties.This sounds like an entirely reasonable solution, assuming it's genuine. The connection between fraternities and schools is already tenuous and forced. Let's stop pretending they have any legitimate place in the intellectual life of a university.
Expecting colleges to punish students academically for their off-campus behavior - even when it's stupid, ugly, and dangerous - is more disturbing than the behavior itself. If you ask me, it's not the university's business if you spend the weekend engaged in civil disobedience, and thus it shouldn't be their business if you spend the weekend binge drinking off-campus. Both are matters that involve actual police and the adults involved. Let frats fend for themselves, fund themselves, buy their own property, and face criminal and civil legal consequences when they do dangerous and stupid things. Frat members aren't children; treating them as if they were doesn't make the world a better place.
posted by eotvos at 8:44 AM on May 9, 2017 [26 favorites]
Penn's new rules: "no more than 10 socials with alcohol per semester will be permitted for each chapter, a reduction from the current limit of 45"
Forty-five drinking parties per semester was the norm? What the hell? And why are they permitting alcohol at all at these parties. Obviously most of the attendees are under age. Why aren't people being jailed for providing alcohol to minors?
Sure kids will drink anyway, but Penn State is putting their official blessing on these illegal activities.
Something is very wrong with Penn State.
posted by JackFlash at 8:49 AM on May 9, 2017 [16 favorites]
Forty-five drinking parties per semester was the norm? What the hell? And why are they permitting alcohol at all at these parties. Obviously most of the attendees are under age. Why aren't people being jailed for providing alcohol to minors?
Sure kids will drink anyway, but Penn State is putting their official blessing on these illegal activities.
Something is very wrong with Penn State.
posted by JackFlash at 8:49 AM on May 9, 2017 [16 favorites]
I read a summary of the grand jury report and it made me sick. These people thought of nothing except covering their asses, they tried to destroy evidence, and they ultimately transported the victim and dumped him in an alley and tried to claim they had found him there.
posted by thelonius at 9:28 AM on May 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 9:28 AM on May 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
Mitheral: How would that sort of restriction interact with their rights of free association; at least at public universities?
I graduated from Plattsburgh State a few years before this incident that involved an underground fraternity that had been kicked off campus for years. They had been unrecognized, barred from any Greek life activities (but still would pal around with the Greeks off campus). The rule was clear: you were in serious trouble from the administration and the brothers if you walked around campus wearing their letters. It seemed to be a polite fiction to basically ignore each other until a pledge died from hyponatremia and the city finally condemned their frat house.
posted by dr_dank at 9:49 AM on May 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
I graduated from Plattsburgh State a few years before this incident that involved an underground fraternity that had been kicked off campus for years. They had been unrecognized, barred from any Greek life activities (but still would pal around with the Greeks off campus). The rule was clear: you were in serious trouble from the administration and the brothers if you walked around campus wearing their letters. It seemed to be a polite fiction to basically ignore each other until a pledge died from hyponatremia and the city finally condemned their frat house.
posted by dr_dank at 9:49 AM on May 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
You have to be a little bit careful about rules meant to corral fraternities, because they get instantly taken out on the non-white student organizations. Telling white boys they can't have their fun comes with serious repercussions.
posted by Lyn Never at 9:53 AM on May 9, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by Lyn Never at 9:53 AM on May 9, 2017 [11 favorites]
Except for a hazy recollection of the very beginnings of the original Greek letter organizations as reading clubs (because those students believed that their colleges weren't rigorous enough and offering enough academic content!), I'm not familiar with the history of Greek letter organizations in the U.S. However, I am familiar with the broad history of student affairs professionals, the folks who typically mentor and monitor these organizations (and run the residence halls, conduct student code of conduct hearings, provide counseling services, etc.) and I suspect that some of the connections that these independent organizations have with colleges and universities were built explicitly so the colleges and universities could try to exert some kind of oversight and control. That's the broad, early history of U.S. college athletics, too - began as independently organized student associations but were brought into the fold of the colleges to provide oversight and control.
Where I'm going with this is that I fear that things would get much worse on some campuses if the college or university completely ended official approval or association with all of the Greek letter organizations. I'm sure that on some campuses this would end or seriously curtail the organizations but for other campuses this would simply end or curtail much of the "adult" oversight of these organizations and they would not only continue to exist but grow worse. Perhaps the national offices or the pressures of increasing insurance rates would naturally curtail the worst excesses but that's speculative.
Mitheral raised the issue of "free association" which is an excellent question that seems to preclude many colleges and universities from prohibiting students from being members of (non-recognized or unofficial) groups. I'm not a lawyer or even a higher education legal expert but it seems to me that the First Amendment would be a serious bar for public institutions prohibiting student membership in these or any other organizations. I imagine that this could even be an issue for private institutions if they could not make some sort of connection between (a) their mission and goals and (b) the prohibition against membership in these organizations.
Finally, I'm not sure that we can just say that this is a problem at Penn State. I'd like to believe that, too, but these problems - hazing, uncontrolled and harmful drinking, protection of student athletes and programs at all costs, etc. - seem much more widespread. I fear that Penn State is not an outlier but representative of a larger set of (related?) problems.
posted by ElKevbo at 9:58 AM on May 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Where I'm going with this is that I fear that things would get much worse on some campuses if the college or university completely ended official approval or association with all of the Greek letter organizations. I'm sure that on some campuses this would end or seriously curtail the organizations but for other campuses this would simply end or curtail much of the "adult" oversight of these organizations and they would not only continue to exist but grow worse. Perhaps the national offices or the pressures of increasing insurance rates would naturally curtail the worst excesses but that's speculative.
Mitheral raised the issue of "free association" which is an excellent question that seems to preclude many colleges and universities from prohibiting students from being members of (non-recognized or unofficial) groups. I'm not a lawyer or even a higher education legal expert but it seems to me that the First Amendment would be a serious bar for public institutions prohibiting student membership in these or any other organizations. I imagine that this could even be an issue for private institutions if they could not make some sort of connection between (a) their mission and goals and (b) the prohibition against membership in these organizations.
Finally, I'm not sure that we can just say that this is a problem at Penn State. I'd like to believe that, too, but these problems - hazing, uncontrolled and harmful drinking, protection of student athletes and programs at all costs, etc. - seem much more widespread. I fear that Penn State is not an outlier but representative of a larger set of (related?) problems.
posted by ElKevbo at 9:58 AM on May 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
“This is a huge challenge because we don’t own the houses, we don’t own the property, we aren’t the national” organization governing fraternities, Penn State’s president, Eric Barron, said Monday in an interview.
...like this is an accident. Things are structured this way for liability shifting.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:00 AM on May 9, 2017 [10 favorites]
...like this is an accident. Things are structured this way for liability shifting.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:00 AM on May 9, 2017 [10 favorites]
I was the guy who called the parents when I was in high school.
IT WAS ALWAYS POSITIVE.
Parents were thrilled that someone was looking out for their idiot offspring. Idiot Offspring were glad to have someone look after them when they were fucked up beyond function.
EVERY TIME.
Nobody ever gave me any grief for it.
MAKE THE DAMN CALL FOR HELP.
[Also teach your kids to call and let them know it will be a good result]
posted by srboisvert at 10:04 AM on May 9, 2017 [46 favorites]
IT WAS ALWAYS POSITIVE.
Parents were thrilled that someone was looking out for their idiot offspring. Idiot Offspring were glad to have someone look after them when they were fucked up beyond function.
EVERY TIME.
Nobody ever gave me any grief for it.
MAKE THE DAMN CALL FOR HELP.
[Also teach your kids to call and let them know it will be a good result]
posted by srboisvert at 10:04 AM on May 9, 2017 [46 favorites]
As sad as it is for the kids about to be charged as felons, hopefully it will educate parents and future pledges that they will be held personally accountable. Joining the fraternity does not hand them a shield it paints a target on their back.
From the already linked article The Dark Power of Fraternities in the Atlantic:
"As you should by now be able to see very clearly, the interests of the national organization and the individual members cleave sharply as this crisis-management plan is followed. Those questionnaires and honest accounts—submitted gratefully to the grown-ups who have arrived, the brothers believe, to help them—may return to haunt many of the brothers, providing possible cause for separating them from the fraternity, dropping them from the fraternity’s insurance, laying the blame on them as individuals and not on the fraternity as the sponsoring organization. Indeed, the young men who typically rush so gratefully into the open arms of the representatives from their beloved national—an outfit to which they have pledged eternal allegiance—would be far better served by not talking to them at all, by walking away from the chapter house as quickly as possible and calling a lawyer."
posted by sol at 10:31 AM on May 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
From the already linked article The Dark Power of Fraternities in the Atlantic:
"As you should by now be able to see very clearly, the interests of the national organization and the individual members cleave sharply as this crisis-management plan is followed. Those questionnaires and honest accounts—submitted gratefully to the grown-ups who have arrived, the brothers believe, to help them—may return to haunt many of the brothers, providing possible cause for separating them from the fraternity, dropping them from the fraternity’s insurance, laying the blame on them as individuals and not on the fraternity as the sponsoring organization. Indeed, the young men who typically rush so gratefully into the open arms of the representatives from their beloved national—an outfit to which they have pledged eternal allegiance—would be far better served by not talking to them at all, by walking away from the chapter house as quickly as possible and calling a lawyer."
posted by sol at 10:31 AM on May 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
One thing I've noticed over the years of being around places that have frat houses is that it is almost impossible to get rid of them. Something bad happens and they might reel around for a couple years teetering on the edge of collapse, and then some alum with a gazillion dollars who remembers all the happy times they spent there shows up to save the day and donates a huge transfusion of money to fix the old place up and help out the boys. Some of these places end being better off than before whatever it was they did to get themselves in trouble.
posted by lagomorphius at 10:50 AM on May 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by lagomorphius at 10:50 AM on May 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
Forty-five drinking parties per semester was the norm? What the hell? And why are they permitting alcohol at all at these parties. Obviously most of the attendees are under age. Why aren't people being jailed for providing alcohol to minors?
15 week semester, that's three parties per week. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. What's a party? Well, statute probably specifies something like "4 or more individuals gathered."
As in, literally any time some college seniors get together and drink, it is considered a "drinking party."
Doesn't excuse the fraternities for inviting underage revelers or providing alcohol, but it definitely explains why a seemingly high limit might be considered reasonable.
posted by explosion at 10:54 AM on May 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
15 week semester, that's three parties per week. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. What's a party? Well, statute probably specifies something like "4 or more individuals gathered."
As in, literally any time some college seniors get together and drink, it is considered a "drinking party."
Doesn't excuse the fraternities for inviting underage revelers or providing alcohol, but it definitely explains why a seemingly high limit might be considered reasonable.
posted by explosion at 10:54 AM on May 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
some fundamental reforms could make these kinds of crimes much more difficult:
Canada's solution:
posted by bonehead at 10:56 AM on May 9, 2017 [10 favorites]
Canada's solution:
- lower the drinking age to 18 or 19 so that university students have options other than greek houses to get drinks (semi-legally). Sororities and fraternities don't become the gatekeepers for first- and second-year parties and drinkers.
- no on-campus private dorms: all on-campus accommodations are owned/managed by the university.
posted by bonehead at 10:56 AM on May 9, 2017 [10 favorites]
"They know when big events are happening"
I do not agree with this statement. I was a Risk Management Something-or-other with the Interfraternity Council in college - basically, the Greek system's alcohol policy enforcement. (I know some of you think this is fox-guarding-the-henhouse stuff, but we took it seriously.) The main thrust of the policy is that chapters would have to register any event where alcohol was served. We busted a handful of unregistered parties, but for every one we busted, there were untold more we didn't find out about until afterward. I can confirm because my own chapter held several unregistered parties per quarter, which nobody in IFC even found about after the fact. And I'm not aware of any internal events (that is, things like pledge hazings or whatever - anything other than parties) that were ever discovered by IFC. To the extent that they came to campus authorities' attention, it was only ever if a participant blew the whistle after the fact, or if something like this happened and it got media attention.
Maybe my experience is unique to Ohio State. Our Greek population is fairly small compared to the overall student body (about 10%), and the Greek system was pretty highly regulated, both by the school and by norms that had developed over the years. For example, none of our fraternities (that I'm aware of, and I was aware of quite a lot, if only after the fact) held giant parties where you could just walk in off the street and start doing kegstands. Fraternity parties at OSU were generally one fraternity (most of whose members lived on site) hosting one sorority (nearly all of whom walked over to the fraternity together). There was no coming and going to give anything away. If you held the party in the basement, and had some decent sound damping, you could throw a party without anyone outside realizing it. Theoretically, non-members were not permitted to attend. Some did, of course, but in general, they'd arrive before the start of the party, because they were trying to make an impression on members. Again, very little foot traffic.
I remember there was a movement maybe ten or fifteen years ago where several national sororities went dry, and then only permitted their members to attend parties thrown by dry fraternity houses. Does anyone know anything about that? That seemed to me like a good way to get fraternities to voluntarily go dry, but apparently it hasn't caught on.
posted by kevinbelt at 11:01 AM on May 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
I do not agree with this statement. I was a Risk Management Something-or-other with the Interfraternity Council in college - basically, the Greek system's alcohol policy enforcement. (I know some of you think this is fox-guarding-the-henhouse stuff, but we took it seriously.) The main thrust of the policy is that chapters would have to register any event where alcohol was served. We busted a handful of unregistered parties, but for every one we busted, there were untold more we didn't find out about until afterward. I can confirm because my own chapter held several unregistered parties per quarter, which nobody in IFC even found about after the fact. And I'm not aware of any internal events (that is, things like pledge hazings or whatever - anything other than parties) that were ever discovered by IFC. To the extent that they came to campus authorities' attention, it was only ever if a participant blew the whistle after the fact, or if something like this happened and it got media attention.
Maybe my experience is unique to Ohio State. Our Greek population is fairly small compared to the overall student body (about 10%), and the Greek system was pretty highly regulated, both by the school and by norms that had developed over the years. For example, none of our fraternities (that I'm aware of, and I was aware of quite a lot, if only after the fact) held giant parties where you could just walk in off the street and start doing kegstands. Fraternity parties at OSU were generally one fraternity (most of whose members lived on site) hosting one sorority (nearly all of whom walked over to the fraternity together). There was no coming and going to give anything away. If you held the party in the basement, and had some decent sound damping, you could throw a party without anyone outside realizing it. Theoretically, non-members were not permitted to attend. Some did, of course, but in general, they'd arrive before the start of the party, because they were trying to make an impression on members. Again, very little foot traffic.
I remember there was a movement maybe ten or fifteen years ago where several national sororities went dry, and then only permitted their members to attend parties thrown by dry fraternity houses. Does anyone know anything about that? That seemed to me like a good way to get fraternities to voluntarily go dry, but apparently it hasn't caught on.
posted by kevinbelt at 11:01 AM on May 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
I had a feeling this was going to show up here.
I live in PA (not really anywhere near Penn State), and this has been absolutely everywhere on the local news here. That place is a national embarrassment at this point. I'm sure something good may have come out of that school at some time, but gosh-darned if I could tell you what it is.
Another solution is amnesty for alcohol-related emergencies. Some schools and towns agree not to punish under-aged students or their friends who report alcohol poisoning.
I can't find it at the moment, but one of the many articles about this case reported that Penn State/State College already does indeed have this. So, let that sink in.
As sad as it is for the kids about to be charged as felons, hopefully it will educate parents and future pledges that they will be held personally accountable.
Quite frankly, I have zero tears to shed for these people. I am, however, entirely in agreement that painting a target on fraternity members' backs is a fine and long-overdue idea.
.
posted by deep thought sunstar at 11:33 AM on May 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
I live in PA (not really anywhere near Penn State), and this has been absolutely everywhere on the local news here. That place is a national embarrassment at this point. I'm sure something good may have come out of that school at some time, but gosh-darned if I could tell you what it is.
Another solution is amnesty for alcohol-related emergencies. Some schools and towns agree not to punish under-aged students or their friends who report alcohol poisoning.
I can't find it at the moment, but one of the many articles about this case reported that Penn State/State College already does indeed have this. So, let that sink in.
As sad as it is for the kids about to be charged as felons, hopefully it will educate parents and future pledges that they will be held personally accountable.
Quite frankly, I have zero tears to shed for these people. I am, however, entirely in agreement that painting a target on fraternity members' backs is a fine and long-overdue idea.
.
posted by deep thought sunstar at 11:33 AM on May 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
“This is a huge challenge because we don’t own the houses, we don’t own the property, we aren’t the national” organization governing fraternities, Penn State’s president, Eric Barron, said Monday in an interview.
...like this is an accident. Things are structured this way for liability shifting.
Interesting because when I lived in a student co-op system with a history of kids getting fucked up/kids fucking shit up the university had actually taken ownership of some of the properties (the ones bordering their other properties) via eminent domain - presumably at least partly to give them a little more control of the situation, which of course the people living there resented.
posted by atoxyl at 11:39 AM on May 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
...like this is an accident. Things are structured this way for liability shifting.
Interesting because when I lived in a student co-op system with a history of kids getting fucked up/kids fucking shit up the university had actually taken ownership of some of the properties (the ones bordering their other properties) via eminent domain - presumably at least partly to give them a little more control of the situation, which of course the people living there resented.
posted by atoxyl at 11:39 AM on May 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
"lower the drinking age to 18 or 19 so that university students have options other than greek houses to get drinks (semi-legally). Sororities and fraternities don't become the gatekeepers for first- and second-year parties and drinkers."
Something else Canada does in conjunction with a lower drinking age; they have a zero BAC rule for driving if you are under 22. If you've had one drink in the past couple of hours, and you are under 22, you are not allowed to drive. Period.
The US drinking age of 21 is insane, and costs more lives than it saves.
posted by el io at 11:42 AM on May 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
Something else Canada does in conjunction with a lower drinking age; they have a zero BAC rule for driving if you are under 22. If you've had one drink in the past couple of hours, and you are under 22, you are not allowed to drive. Period.
The US drinking age of 21 is insane, and costs more lives than it saves.
posted by el io at 11:42 AM on May 9, 2017 [5 favorites]
The Gooch, it's even worse than that. Two of the fraternity members wanted to all 911. One was just talked out of it. The other was assaulted.
http://www.philly.com/philly/education/A-few-frat-members-wanted-to-call-911.html
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 11:44 AM on May 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
http://www.philly.com/philly/education/A-few-frat-members-wanted-to-call-911.html
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 11:44 AM on May 9, 2017 [6 favorites]
"This is a huge challenge because we don’t own the houses, we don’t own the property, we aren’t the national” organization governing fraternities, Penn State’s president, Eric Barron, said Monday in an interview.I think you're confused--that quote was from a university official, but the article's about the national fraternity organizations avoiding liability, not universities. Or am I misremembering? (It's a while since I read it.)
...like this is an accident. Things are structured this way for liability shifting.
posted by floppyroofing at 11:55 AM on May 9, 2017
The girls I knew in college, high school, junior high, and even grade school would have put a stop to the hazing that killed this kid almost before it got started.
And that's what made fraternity life completely unthinkable for me (and an occasion for some very uncomfortable 'why the hell are you doing this to yourself?' conversations with some of my male high school friends): the dearth of girls and women in everyday life in a fraternity.
And this isn't a sex thing: I have just found the influence of girls and women on the physical space and social relations of people around me to be indispensable.
I'm not saying it was the best thing for the girls and women, though. It probably wasn't.
posted by jamjam at 12:05 PM on May 9, 2017
And that's what made fraternity life completely unthinkable for me (and an occasion for some very uncomfortable 'why the hell are you doing this to yourself?' conversations with some of my male high school friends): the dearth of girls and women in everyday life in a fraternity.
And this isn't a sex thing: I have just found the influence of girls and women on the physical space and social relations of people around me to be indispensable.
I'm not saying it was the best thing for the girls and women, though. It probably wasn't.
posted by jamjam at 12:05 PM on May 9, 2017
The girls I knew in college, high school, junior high, and even grade school would have put a stop to the hazing that killed this kid almost before it got started.
The non-frats I was talking about above are co-ed. It certainly did not eliminate sexual assaults, or say accidental drug overdoses, but I do think the culture was somewhat less fucked up than frats nonetheless.
posted by atoxyl at 12:12 PM on May 9, 2017
The non-frats I was talking about above are co-ed. It certainly did not eliminate sexual assaults, or say accidental drug overdoses, but I do think the culture was somewhat less fucked up than frats nonetheless.
posted by atoxyl at 12:12 PM on May 9, 2017
I think you're confused--that quote was from a university official, but the article's about the national fraternity organizations avoiding liability, not universities. Or am I misremembering?
They're part and parcel of the same structure of blameshifting. The university can't do anything because they're not the national organization; the national organization can't possibly check everything that every chapter does because they're not the university; repeat ad infinitum.
posted by Etrigan at 12:24 PM on May 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
They're part and parcel of the same structure of blameshifting. The university can't do anything because they're not the national organization; the national organization can't possibly check everything that every chapter does because they're not the university; repeat ad infinitum.
posted by Etrigan at 12:24 PM on May 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
“ 'This is a huge challenge because we don’t own the houses, we don’t own the property, we aren’t the national' organization governing fraternities, Penn State’s president, Eric Barron, said Monday in an interview."
Harvard, perhaps for purposes more noble than keeping students from letting each other die from neglect, or perhaps not, has prohibited members of truly élite private clubs the school deems "exclusionary and disempowering" from holding leadership positions in campus organizations and from receiving certain types of letters of recommendation from the school.
If other schools followed Harvard's example and applied it to fraternities, it could deter ambitious and driven students who are giving serious thought to their futures after college from joining frats.
On the other hand, at schools where students' trajectories tend to be less spectacular than Harvard's, or when you're dealing with bros who can't see past the next kegger, being ineligible to run for student body president or from getting a letter of recommendation for a Rhodes scholarship application may not do much to rein in misconduct at fraternities.
posted by A. Davey at 12:34 PM on May 9, 2017
Harvard, perhaps for purposes more noble than keeping students from letting each other die from neglect, or perhaps not, has prohibited members of truly élite private clubs the school deems "exclusionary and disempowering" from holding leadership positions in campus organizations and from receiving certain types of letters of recommendation from the school.
If other schools followed Harvard's example and applied it to fraternities, it could deter ambitious and driven students who are giving serious thought to their futures after college from joining frats.
On the other hand, at schools where students' trajectories tend to be less spectacular than Harvard's, or when you're dealing with bros who can't see past the next kegger, being ineligible to run for student body president or from getting a letter of recommendation for a Rhodes scholarship application may not do much to rein in misconduct at fraternities.
posted by A. Davey at 12:34 PM on May 9, 2017
I've always found the concept of the fraternity pretty stupid. Get ritually abused so that you can have the honor of living like a pig in a house with the pigs that ritually abused you. Oh, and you get a shirt with greek letters on it. How low does your self-esteem have to be to tolerate the kind of purposeless nonsense they put you through to be in a fraternity?
posted by prepmonkey at 12:55 PM on May 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by prepmonkey at 12:55 PM on May 9, 2017 [2 favorites]
These details are horrifying. I can imagine it too well. I was in at a party on a tiny island where someone OD'd. No one functioning well enough to determine if it was serious enough to, bluntly, fuck most everyone's careers there. Being in a certain governmental area. Calling emergency would've meant helicopters, police... I was a guest and everyone else knew each other. 2 closest friends of the seriously ill person took the decision not to call and said "They'll be fine!" Which later turned out to be right. Notwithstanding that if I'm ever in a situation like that again (unlikely as I don't party no more) I'll fucking call the cops, I'm no longer friends with any of those guys anyway.
posted by yoHighness at 12:58 PM on May 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by yoHighness at 12:58 PM on May 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Penn State's campus has several on-campus fraternity houses, but the bulk of the fraternities are in a residential neighborhood off campus. If you remember, before Sarah Koenig did Serial she did a piece about The #1 Drinking School - she lived in the neighborhood where all of the off-campus fraternities are located. Residents in that neighborhood have drunk kids passed out in their yard on a regular basis.
The culture of drinking at Penn State created scenes like "State Paddy's Day" as an alternative to St. Patrick's Day celebration because sometimes St. Patrick's Day falls on a school holiday, like Spring Break. Even local bars push back against State Paddy's Day because it gets out of control. And that's just one example of many.
Penn State administration and the Greek system need to educate their members to be Good Samaritans and to know that it's possible to help people who are injured so that they aren't worried about covering their asses. There needs to be changes on multiple fronts in that community. Holding these kids accountable for their actions is a good start.
posted by BooneTheCowboyToy at 1:03 PM on May 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
The culture of drinking at Penn State created scenes like "State Paddy's Day" as an alternative to St. Patrick's Day celebration because sometimes St. Patrick's Day falls on a school holiday, like Spring Break. Even local bars push back against State Paddy's Day because it gets out of control. And that's just one example of many.
Penn State administration and the Greek system need to educate their members to be Good Samaritans and to know that it's possible to help people who are injured so that they aren't worried about covering their asses. There needs to be changes on multiple fronts in that community. Holding these kids accountable for their actions is a good start.
posted by BooneTheCowboyToy at 1:03 PM on May 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
"Quite frankly, I have zero tears to shed for these people. I am, however, entirely in agreement that painting a target on fraternity members' backs is a fine and long-overdue idea."
That's fine, but I'm pessimistic about that improving things much.
To individual students and their families hearing about this, these are isolated events, possibly avoidable by just being a decent human being, not doing anything stupid, staying away from that one house that had trouble last year, or whatever.
It's the institutions involved (universities, national fraternities) that see that there are consistent patterns. You get a lot more leverage if you can figure out how to ensure that they get both the power to solve the problem and the consequences when they don't.
posted by floppyroofing at 1:10 PM on May 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
That's fine, but I'm pessimistic about that improving things much.
To individual students and their families hearing about this, these are isolated events, possibly avoidable by just being a decent human being, not doing anything stupid, staying away from that one house that had trouble last year, or whatever.
It's the institutions involved (universities, national fraternities) that see that there are consistent patterns. You get a lot more leverage if you can figure out how to ensure that they get both the power to solve the problem and the consequences when they don't.
posted by floppyroofing at 1:10 PM on May 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Canada's solution:
lower the drinking age to 18 or 19 so that university students have options other than greek houses to get drinks (semi-legally). Sororities and fraternities don't become the gatekeepers for first- and second-year parties and drinkers.
no on-campus private dorms: all on-campus accommodations are owned/managed by the university.
Those rules have killed a lot of the benefits particularly on the Canadian equivalent of the land-grant schools out west, which tend to be fairly segregated from the surrounding community. Many schools also don't officially recognize and don't allow on-campus recruiting or events for Greek system clubs, which helps too, but the removal of two major advantages Frats and Sororities have over traditional dorms, access to the best parties and access to convenient housing, has meant they don't get a lot of traction in Canada.
In case people don't know the history Canada has grappled with pretty serious problems with lethal on-campus drinking.
I was a University of Guelph student in the late 80's and early 90's and there were several drinking related fatalities on campus in a very short period of time while I was there. It was a pretty boozy with a lot of students living on campus. I think for a student population of 11 or 12 thousand total there was something like 20 drinking joints on campus. A couple of drunks tumbled down stairs in the late sixties brutalist residence buildings and died of their injuries (concrete stairwells are not a drunk's friend)
As a result they instituted a bunch of changes with the on-campus bars, shut down several of them and made huge changes in their residence supervision and beer deliveries direct to students in the residences (In almost every fatality there was 'pre-loading' - the students were seriously drunk before they even made it to a bar).
So they realized that while bar changes and server training were useful for cutting drunk people off it wasn't sufficient to stop the serious over-drinking. That had to happen in the residences where the pre-loading was done. They needed to make it easier to drink in a safe controlled environment where trained servers could help manage consumption and harder to drink in dorm rooms where students can fall down stairs and lie injured and unnoticed for several hours.
Frat houses are like residences except on steroids and completely unsupervised so I am not surprised the problem is worse.
posted by srboisvert at 2:13 PM on May 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
lower the drinking age to 18 or 19 so that university students have options other than greek houses to get drinks (semi-legally). Sororities and fraternities don't become the gatekeepers for first- and second-year parties and drinkers.
no on-campus private dorms: all on-campus accommodations are owned/managed by the university.
Those rules have killed a lot of the benefits particularly on the Canadian equivalent of the land-grant schools out west, which tend to be fairly segregated from the surrounding community. Many schools also don't officially recognize and don't allow on-campus recruiting or events for Greek system clubs, which helps too, but the removal of two major advantages Frats and Sororities have over traditional dorms, access to the best parties and access to convenient housing, has meant they don't get a lot of traction in Canada.
In case people don't know the history Canada has grappled with pretty serious problems with lethal on-campus drinking.
I was a University of Guelph student in the late 80's and early 90's and there were several drinking related fatalities on campus in a very short period of time while I was there. It was a pretty boozy with a lot of students living on campus. I think for a student population of 11 or 12 thousand total there was something like 20 drinking joints on campus. A couple of drunks tumbled down stairs in the late sixties brutalist residence buildings and died of their injuries (concrete stairwells are not a drunk's friend)
As a result they instituted a bunch of changes with the on-campus bars, shut down several of them and made huge changes in their residence supervision and beer deliveries direct to students in the residences (In almost every fatality there was 'pre-loading' - the students were seriously drunk before they even made it to a bar).
So they realized that while bar changes and server training were useful for cutting drunk people off it wasn't sufficient to stop the serious over-drinking. That had to happen in the residences where the pre-loading was done. They needed to make it easier to drink in a safe controlled environment where trained servers could help manage consumption and harder to drink in dorm rooms where students can fall down stairs and lie injured and unnoticed for several hours.
Frat houses are like residences except on steroids and completely unsupervised so I am not surprised the problem is worse.
posted by srboisvert at 2:13 PM on May 9, 2017 [4 favorites]
It should be noted that a lot of national fraternities (probably all, honestly) are taking steps. I'd be shocked if there were a national fraternity in 2017 that didn't include a module on alcohol in its new member education program. Likewise, I'd be shocked if there were one that didn't include sexual assault awareness training. We had both when I went through in '99. I re-read the sexual assault section of my pledge manual a couple of years ago as there were more and more headlines about campus rape, and I was pretty surprised how progressive it was for being 20 years old. I believe most colleges have alcohol policies for their Greek systems as well.
The big problem is that the burden of actually teaching these policies falls to the undergraduates themselves. You can have the most detailed alcohol policy, but if the upperclassman teaching it to the new members doesn't buy into it, or doesn't understand it, or is merely apathetic, it's not going to get through. And then when those new members become upperclassmen and they have to teach the new classes, they won't buy in, or won't understand, or will be apathetic. (National fraternities also vary in their dedication to teaching their own policies.)
The other big problem is that, even if the undergraduates do get it, and even if they do buy in, they're still afraid of the repercussions if something goes wrong. In this case in particular, and I'd bet in most cases in general, the cover-up is where everything gets fucked up. I'm not at all minimizing the binge drinking and hazing, by any means. But if they'd just taken this kid to the hospital immediately, he'd probably still be alive. The mentality of the average fraternity member in 2017 (and in 2000, when I was in school, and probably for decades before that) is that both the school and national are out to get your charter - they're just looking for reasons to get rid of you. In the disordered thought process, if you can just hide the fact that something happened, things will turn out OK. As anyone who's ever tried to cover something up knows, this doesn't work, and it usually makes things worse.
posted by kevinbelt at 2:18 PM on May 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
The big problem is that the burden of actually teaching these policies falls to the undergraduates themselves. You can have the most detailed alcohol policy, but if the upperclassman teaching it to the new members doesn't buy into it, or doesn't understand it, or is merely apathetic, it's not going to get through. And then when those new members become upperclassmen and they have to teach the new classes, they won't buy in, or won't understand, or will be apathetic. (National fraternities also vary in their dedication to teaching their own policies.)
The other big problem is that, even if the undergraduates do get it, and even if they do buy in, they're still afraid of the repercussions if something goes wrong. In this case in particular, and I'd bet in most cases in general, the cover-up is where everything gets fucked up. I'm not at all minimizing the binge drinking and hazing, by any means. But if they'd just taken this kid to the hospital immediately, he'd probably still be alive. The mentality of the average fraternity member in 2017 (and in 2000, when I was in school, and probably for decades before that) is that both the school and national are out to get your charter - they're just looking for reasons to get rid of you. In the disordered thought process, if you can just hide the fact that something happened, things will turn out OK. As anyone who's ever tried to cover something up knows, this doesn't work, and it usually makes things worse.
posted by kevinbelt at 2:18 PM on May 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
I was hazed in a small Canadian university (for residence, not a sorority) in the very late 80s and frankly it was a horrific experience, spread out over fresh week, and involved getting soaked and running around at night, licking whipped cream off strange guys' thighs (whereupon the guys getting licked got a boner check and the girls got a boner rating..,) and I thankfully don't remember what else.Other dorms did worse and it was a miracle no one died that year.
After some years of protest a new no-hazing policy was enacted that I hope works. This experience however, which you could opt out if bit would brand you in a small town/school forever, is one reason I do not donate to the alumni funds.
I think pressure on the fundraising side might lead to better solutions.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:40 PM on May 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
After some years of protest a new no-hazing policy was enacted that I hope works. This experience however, which you could opt out if bit would brand you in a small town/school forever, is one reason I do not donate to the alumni funds.
I think pressure on the fundraising side might lead to better solutions.
posted by warriorqueen at 2:40 PM on May 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
The Greek system really is a sick system, with all those layers of privileged plausible deniability rolled in. National publishes the rules about booze and sex and hazing and academic integrity down to the chapters, and is there a wink and a nod when those are delivered? Gosh, it's hard to say. The chapter administration assures National and the school that they are very serious about these guidelines, but you know how young guys are, sometimes they just don't take it seriously, we can't take responsibility for that. Most universities have policies that make you a "former" student the second you're charged with a crime, which also makes you a former fraternity member so really, that was an outsider coming in trying to cause trouble.
The only real sin is getting caught. Just don't get caught, don't get everybody else in trouble, don't ruin it for us. All we wanna do is fuck shit up and not have repercussions, man. That's part of the reason for the strong authority hierarchy, so that new entrants into the system get a lot of abuse, gaslighting, and pressure to comply at the stage that they're most likely to call out shit for what it is. After a year, they're complicit and the stakes get too high for whistleblowing, or the morals get too eroded.
And as soon as the chapter's allowed to rush again after a serious incident, they'll get as many pledges as they always have. That's the wild part. If you were looking for a job, would you apply for one at a company where one of the employees was worked to death at the office eight months ago? If you were buying a house, would you buy a murder house as soon as the carpet was replaced? The culture of non-responsibility is so pervasive, and the cachet of white privilege so shiny, that people will voluntarily line up and shake the hands of accessories to murder and say dude, I'm so sorry, that must have really sucked for you.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:40 PM on May 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
The only real sin is getting caught. Just don't get caught, don't get everybody else in trouble, don't ruin it for us. All we wanna do is fuck shit up and not have repercussions, man. That's part of the reason for the strong authority hierarchy, so that new entrants into the system get a lot of abuse, gaslighting, and pressure to comply at the stage that they're most likely to call out shit for what it is. After a year, they're complicit and the stakes get too high for whistleblowing, or the morals get too eroded.
And as soon as the chapter's allowed to rush again after a serious incident, they'll get as many pledges as they always have. That's the wild part. If you were looking for a job, would you apply for one at a company where one of the employees was worked to death at the office eight months ago? If you were buying a house, would you buy a murder house as soon as the carpet was replaced? The culture of non-responsibility is so pervasive, and the cachet of white privilege so shiny, that people will voluntarily line up and shake the hands of accessories to murder and say dude, I'm so sorry, that must have really sucked for you.
posted by Lyn Never at 3:40 PM on May 9, 2017 [3 favorites]
The reality is that 99% of kids that join a fraternity or sorority don't haze anybody into drinking themselves to death, don't sexually assault anybody, and generally don't have that much of a different college experience than anybody else on campus. What happened at Penn State is fucking horrible, but it really has little to do with greek letters. Pretty much any membership organization of any kind has had issues with hazing. My father got hazed when he was inducted into the Royal Order of the Cooties, which is the honor society of the American Legion or VFW, I forget which one. Penn State could ban greek letter organizations, and 30 guys sharing a floor of an apartment complex would invent stupid rituals for the guys that want to move in as people move out. I'd like to think we will eventually grow out of this shit, but the evidence isn't particularly encouraging. 4 and 5 year old kids create secret clubs and exclude the kids they don't like. 50 year old men create honor societies and drink too much and make the new members do stupid stuff. 18-21 year old boys certainly aren't going to be immune. Education and oversight are the only answers I see, and they are never going to be 100% effective.
posted by COD at 5:32 PM on May 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by COD at 5:32 PM on May 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm sure something good may have come out of that school at some time, but gosh-darned if I could tell you what it is.
Russel Marker - (emeritus professor of Organic Chemistry) developed the Marker Degradation which lead to commercially viable synthesis of steroid hormones and essentially the development of hormonal birth control.
On a more fraternity front there is THON which raises approx 10 million for charity every year.
Not that any of this excuses these idiots, but don't tar everyone with the same brush by merely being associated with the university. When you get 50k college aged people in one town then there will be a lot of idiots, but there will also be a lot of good people doing interesting things as well. Similar to a random sampling across the entire population.
posted by koolkat at 1:38 AM on May 10, 2017
Russel Marker - (emeritus professor of Organic Chemistry) developed the Marker Degradation which lead to commercially viable synthesis of steroid hormones and essentially the development of hormonal birth control.
On a more fraternity front there is THON which raises approx 10 million for charity every year.
Not that any of this excuses these idiots, but don't tar everyone with the same brush by merely being associated with the university. When you get 50k college aged people in one town then there will be a lot of idiots, but there will also be a lot of good people doing interesting things as well. Similar to a random sampling across the entire population.
posted by koolkat at 1:38 AM on May 10, 2017
make membership in a non-compliant fraternity or sorority an expellable offense
Double secret probation.
posted by flabdablet at 2:06 AM on May 10, 2017
Double secret probation.
posted by flabdablet at 2:06 AM on May 10, 2017
I'd like to think we will eventually grow out of this shit
Sure we will, but there will always be a roughly equal number just growing into it.
posted by flabdablet at 2:08 AM on May 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
Sure we will, but there will always be a roughly equal number just growing into it.
posted by flabdablet at 2:08 AM on May 10, 2017 [5 favorites]
Maybe fraternities should not be allowed to have staircases
posted by thelonius at 4:49 AM on May 10, 2017
posted by thelonius at 4:49 AM on May 10, 2017
"And as soon as the chapter's allowed to rush again after a serious incident, they'll get as many pledges as they always have. That's the wild part. If you were looking for a job, would you apply for one at a company where one of the employees was worked to death at the office eight months ago?"
The answer to the question is "Of course not." But first you'd have to know about the skeletons in the closet. This is where universities could help students and parents by maintaining a list of past disciplinary action against fraternities. Surely most administrators know there's a communication tool called the Internet that's ideally suited to promoting transparency of this kind.
Yet, at my alma mater, Northwestern University, there's nary a mention that my frat, also Beta Theta Pi, was once shut down by the school for misconduct. Imagine my surprise a number of years ago when I walked down fraternity row only to find the name plaque had been taken down and the house was now an ordinary residence hall. But anyone visiting the Beta on NU's Greek web pages (the school's, not the frat's), would have no way of knowing this history because it's not there.
Isn't amazing when we discover holes this size in the info sphere? Someone could fall in and hurt themselves.
posted by A. Davey at 6:26 AM on May 10, 2017 [2 favorites]
The answer to the question is "Of course not." But first you'd have to know about the skeletons in the closet. This is where universities could help students and parents by maintaining a list of past disciplinary action against fraternities. Surely most administrators know there's a communication tool called the Internet that's ideally suited to promoting transparency of this kind.
Yet, at my alma mater, Northwestern University, there's nary a mention that my frat, also Beta Theta Pi, was once shut down by the school for misconduct. Imagine my surprise a number of years ago when I walked down fraternity row only to find the name plaque had been taken down and the house was now an ordinary residence hall. But anyone visiting the Beta on NU's Greek web pages (the school's, not the frat's), would have no way of knowing this history because it's not there.
Isn't amazing when we discover holes this size in the info sphere? Someone could fall in and hurt themselves.
posted by A. Davey at 6:26 AM on May 10, 2017 [2 favorites]
A. Davey, people drinking way too much and making people drink way too much is entertaining in a way that being overworked just isn't.
It's probably just as well that people can't make a living by getting drunk.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:11 AM on May 10, 2017
It's probably just as well that people can't make a living by getting drunk.
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 7:11 AM on May 10, 2017
drinking way too much and making people drink way too much
Just about the only intelligent discision I made about alcohol, in college, was: I only abused beer. These kids fucking around with making pledges drink large amounts of vodka are asking for disaster. Or doing it themselves. You more or less can't die from acute alcohol poisoning if you only drink beer; you get sick and pass out first. You could still fall off the roof or whatever, of course.
posted by thelonius at 7:42 AM on May 10, 2017
Just about the only intelligent discision I made about alcohol, in college, was: I only abused beer. These kids fucking around with making pledges drink large amounts of vodka are asking for disaster. Or doing it themselves. You more or less can't die from acute alcohol poisoning if you only drink beer; you get sick and pass out first. You could still fall off the roof or whatever, of course.
posted by thelonius at 7:42 AM on May 10, 2017
This is where universities could help students and parents by maintaining a list of past disciplinary action against fraternities.
The problem with that is fraternities are just a collection of young people that have joined an organization, usually for a combination of altruistic, personal / social, and party access related reasons. Change the people and the character of the organization changes with it. Any fraternity that has screwed up bad likely will be significantly downsized as National will come in and clean house, starting over with a small core of kids that a responsible adult from National has determined are high character kids. So the fact that Beta Theta Whatever got busted hard for something 3 years ago means nothing about the kids in the fraternity today. Few of the kids that were around for the screw up will still be there, and the kids still there were likely selected specifically to change the culture of the place. If anything, a fraternity that got in trouble recently is probably a safer place to be for the next few years, as they are under the proverbial microscope, so to speak.
Likewise, there is really no commonality between the kids in a fraternity at one campus and the kids in the same fraternity at a different campus. They could be an athletics focused fraternity at Penn State full of football players dating sorority girls, and at The University of Pittsburgh that same fraternity might be a bunch of stoners that sit around listening to the Dead all day.
posted by COD at 7:45 AM on May 10, 2017
The problem with that is fraternities are just a collection of young people that have joined an organization, usually for a combination of altruistic, personal / social, and party access related reasons. Change the people and the character of the organization changes with it. Any fraternity that has screwed up bad likely will be significantly downsized as National will come in and clean house, starting over with a small core of kids that a responsible adult from National has determined are high character kids. So the fact that Beta Theta Whatever got busted hard for something 3 years ago means nothing about the kids in the fraternity today. Few of the kids that were around for the screw up will still be there, and the kids still there were likely selected specifically to change the culture of the place. If anything, a fraternity that got in trouble recently is probably a safer place to be for the next few years, as they are under the proverbial microscope, so to speak.
Likewise, there is really no commonality between the kids in a fraternity at one campus and the kids in the same fraternity at a different campus. They could be an athletics focused fraternity at Penn State full of football players dating sorority girls, and at The University of Pittsburgh that same fraternity might be a bunch of stoners that sit around listening to the Dead all day.
posted by COD at 7:45 AM on May 10, 2017
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I had read about this earlier, and God damn. I didn't think there was much left that could happen in a frathouse that could surprise me, but I found I was wrong.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:56 AM on May 9, 2017 [3 favorites]