"I was like nope, that’s not going to happen"
July 23, 2018 9:18 PM Subscribe
You may have seen the reddit post about the Savannah waitress who body-slammed a groper. The Washington Post now has a story with more background (non-paywalled link here). There's also an editorial cartoon in the local paper.
This:
posted by nnethercote at 9:38 PM on July 23, 2018 [161 favorites]
While the responses to Holden's actions have been overwhelmingly positive, she has also received significant criticism for the nature of her clothing, a crop top and short shorts, she told WTOC.And this:
"It's upsetting to see people that have that train of thought," Holden said. "It's hot out. I can wear whatever I want. Don't touch me, how about that?"
Asked if she has a message for the man who groped her, Holden paused for a moment.Oh snap, she is awesome.
"I got what I wanted when they put him in handcuffs," she said. "Best wishes to your daughters."
posted by nnethercote at 9:38 PM on July 23, 2018 [161 favorites]
She was assaulted. She defended herself and neutralized the threat. I thought the response was proportionate and appropriate. I’m not a guy who is big on resorting to violence, but if you assault someone don’t be surprised if they fight back.
posted by azpenguin at 9:40 PM on July 23, 2018 [102 favorites]
posted by azpenguin at 9:40 PM on July 23, 2018 [102 favorites]
Good on her for it. I am glad she put him in his place so decisively. I am glad he got arrested. But I am really glad it was caught on camera. No trying to spin it to make her sound as if she imagined it or was not smart and sane enough to understand what was happening.
Sadly, he is a big boy; he should have learned to be civilized by now.
And she can wear whatever she wants. It's 2018, people; get civilized yourselves.
Thank you for the link.
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 10:09 PM on July 23, 2018 [21 favorites]
Sadly, he is a big boy; he should have learned to be civilized by now.
And she can wear whatever she wants. It's 2018, people; get civilized yourselves.
Thank you for the link.
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 10:09 PM on July 23, 2018 [21 favorites]
All I can say (after watching the parking space argument escalation video) is he is lucky he ONLY got body slammed and arrested...
posted by Samizdata at 10:12 PM on July 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Samizdata at 10:12 PM on July 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
Whoa. That is an extremely surprising video. In NYC, we were specifically warned that the law would not be on our side if we kept going after the other guy tried to disengage. Is this just a case of the local police going, "Eh, some people need beating," or does Georgia actually let you to chase after people who are already walking away?
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 10:29 PM on July 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 10:29 PM on July 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
While the responses to Holden's actions have been overwhelmingly positive, she has also received significant criticism for the nature of her clothing, a crop top and short shorts, she told WTOC.
Obviously opined by sheltered people of limited intelligence with no empathy or life experience in reality who never worked in the sweltering heat in a crowded pizzeria in the summer where there are brick ovens. We really, really need to have some sort of civil fine for that, like wearing a dunce cap and winter clothing in a sweltering pizzeria near the brick ovens in the summer.
And even if she didn't, she can walk down the street with nothing but a smile, and you are not to touch her.
It never ceases to amaze me that the definition of "sexual assault" involves women not to make a single perceived error, but the men can do everything wrong and people are still looking for a loophole to save him all while moving those goalposts.
I had a wonderful sociology professor who had severe criticism for news stories covering women who were attacked at night waiting for a bus to get to work or home from work, with the never-ending attitude of asking why was she there alone at night.
His answer was brilliant: She was there waiting for a bus not looking to hurt anyone. What was he doing there alone at night?
Again, good on her. I always cry at happy endings!
does Georgia actually let you to chase after people who are already walking away?
How would she know when her back was turned to him when he assaulted her?
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 10:39 PM on July 23, 2018 [62 favorites]
Obviously opined by sheltered people of limited intelligence with no empathy or life experience in reality who never worked in the sweltering heat in a crowded pizzeria in the summer where there are brick ovens. We really, really need to have some sort of civil fine for that, like wearing a dunce cap and winter clothing in a sweltering pizzeria near the brick ovens in the summer.
And even if she didn't, she can walk down the street with nothing but a smile, and you are not to touch her.
It never ceases to amaze me that the definition of "sexual assault" involves women not to make a single perceived error, but the men can do everything wrong and people are still looking for a loophole to save him all while moving those goalposts.
I had a wonderful sociology professor who had severe criticism for news stories covering women who were attacked at night waiting for a bus to get to work or home from work, with the never-ending attitude of asking why was she there alone at night.
His answer was brilliant: She was there waiting for a bus not looking to hurt anyone. What was he doing there alone at night?
Again, good on her. I always cry at happy endings!
does Georgia actually let you to chase after people who are already walking away?
How would she know when her back was turned to him when he assaulted her?
posted by Alexandra Kitty at 10:39 PM on July 23, 2018 [62 favorites]
kept going after the other guy tried to disengage
that guy walking away wasn't "trying to disengage" so much as "sneaking off" though right? That's how it looks to me, anyway.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 10:44 PM on July 23, 2018 [41 favorites]
that guy walking away wasn't "trying to disengage" so much as "sneaking off" though right? That's how it looks to me, anyway.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 10:44 PM on July 23, 2018 [41 favorites]
The comments on the reddit thread are amazingly supportive and unreddit-like, btw.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:45 PM on July 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 10:45 PM on July 23, 2018 [5 favorites]
I mean, I saw this there first and a lot of the comments were of the "oh, so swap the gender and everyone's cool with this" nonsense ilk so there's still plenty of That Sort of Redditting going on in the thread.
posted by ominous_paws at 11:08 PM on July 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by ominous_paws at 11:08 PM on July 23, 2018 [2 favorites]
I used to live in Savannah and recognized it immediately as Vinnie's.... the pizza place that all my punk rock friends worked at. Not surprising at all that he got his assed kicked and all the other employees helped out.
she has also received significant criticism for the nature of her clothing, a crop top and short shorts
Clearly none of these dipshits have ever been to coastal Georgia in July.
posted by bradbane at 11:16 PM on July 23, 2018 [20 favorites]
she has also received significant criticism for the nature of her clothing, a crop top and short shorts
Clearly none of these dipshits have ever been to coastal Georgia in July.
posted by bradbane at 11:16 PM on July 23, 2018 [20 favorites]
AlexandraKitty, I am in total agreement with your comment. Working in a pizza place is miserable in the summer and i loved her answer. I wasn't clear on something you said though:
"I had a wonderful sociology professor who had severe criticism for news stories covering women who were attacked at night waiting for a bus to get to work or home from work, with the never-ending attitude of asking why was she there alone at night."
I guess my question is: why did your professor need to mention that they were waiting for a bus to go home from work? Why is that important? It sounds like there's an implication that if they were waiting for a bus to like, go to a concert or a bar, it would be less ok. (Because if what you're doing is like...sittting there not trying to hurt anyone, that's the thing that matters, right? If you're going to work, a concert, a pizza place, whatever!)
i'm sorry if this was a derail -- i totally agree with the spirit of the anecdote in case that wasn't clear!
posted by capnsue at 11:16 PM on July 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
"I had a wonderful sociology professor who had severe criticism for news stories covering women who were attacked at night waiting for a bus to get to work or home from work, with the never-ending attitude of asking why was she there alone at night."
I guess my question is: why did your professor need to mention that they were waiting for a bus to go home from work? Why is that important? It sounds like there's an implication that if they were waiting for a bus to like, go to a concert or a bar, it would be less ok. (Because if what you're doing is like...sittting there not trying to hurt anyone, that's the thing that matters, right? If you're going to work, a concert, a pizza place, whatever!)
i'm sorry if this was a derail -- i totally agree with the spirit of the anecdote in case that wasn't clear!
posted by capnsue at 11:16 PM on July 23, 2018 [1 favorite]
The smegma claimed that he was "trying to move her out of the way". WOMEN ARE NOT FURNITURE!!!
posted by brujita at 11:43 PM on July 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by brujita at 11:43 PM on July 23, 2018 [13 favorites]
tried to disengage
Disengagement here would mean her ass threw itself - while the rest of her body was managing its work responsibilities - into the passing man's hand, which was conveniently but unknowingly there to cup it, and then kept throwing itself while the man struggled to keep his hand away.
Not the video I saw. Because that video does not exist.
posted by goofyfoot at 11:48 PM on July 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
Disengagement here would mean her ass threw itself - while the rest of her body was managing its work responsibilities - into the passing man's hand, which was conveniently but unknowingly there to cup it, and then kept throwing itself while the man struggled to keep his hand away.
Not the video I saw. Because that video does not exist.
posted by goofyfoot at 11:48 PM on July 23, 2018 [6 favorites]
trying to move her out of the way
I've been doing it for years, I wait for a moment if necessary, and then I politely say, "Excuse me."
It's amazing, it works every time, no touching, grabbing or any other @#$% form of assault necessary.
It's too bad (but sadly not surprising) that Ryan didn't learn his lesson even after all of this.
and really what I mean here, is moving past someone, but the idea, I think, still applies
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 11:50 PM on July 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
I've been doing it for years, I wait for a moment if necessary, and then I politely say, "Excuse me."
It's amazing, it works every time, no touching, grabbing or any other @#$% form of assault necessary.
It's too bad (but sadly not surprising) that Ryan didn't learn his lesson even after all of this.
and really what I mean here, is moving past someone, but the idea, I think, still applies
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 11:50 PM on July 23, 2018 [9 favorites]
According to the Associated Press, Cherwinski told police he touched her by "accident."
Maybe he hasn't seen the video? Because he definitely touched her "assident". On purpose.
posted by chavenet at 1:39 AM on July 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
Maybe he hasn't seen the video? Because he definitely touched her "assident". On purpose.
posted by chavenet at 1:39 AM on July 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
I laughed. I laughed long and hard and whooped. And then I watched it again 20 times. She's awesome.
posted by like_neon at 1:48 AM on July 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by like_neon at 1:48 AM on July 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
That cartoon is terrible.
posted by Brocktoon at 1:49 AM on July 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Brocktoon at 1:49 AM on July 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
I am pleasantly amazed that he was arrested. I've never heard of anyone being arrested for that before!
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:34 AM on July 24, 2018 [26 favorites]
posted by The Underpants Monster at 2:34 AM on July 24, 2018 [26 favorites]
I saw this on my social media feeds yesterday and didn't dig further, the "assaulter gets his comeuppance" genre is not always one I engage with. But I watched the video just now and it's so, so fantastic and satisfying and I'm very glad I did.
posted by naju at 4:32 AM on July 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by naju at 4:32 AM on July 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
I guess my question is: why did your professor need to mention that they were waiting for a bus to go home from work? Why is that important?
The professor in question was referring to a specific incident in which the woman was attacked while standing at a bus stop.
His response wasn't so much a "she was an innocent flower" kind of defense, it was more like, "....duh, people, what did you THINK she was doing?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:40 AM on July 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
The professor in question was referring to a specific incident in which the woman was attacked while standing at a bus stop.
His response wasn't so much a "she was an innocent flower" kind of defense, it was more like, "....duh, people, what did you THINK she was doing?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:40 AM on July 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
That cartoon is terrible.
Pretty typical for home-town ed-cartoons. I'm struck by how phallic the cartoonist's avatar is, though. Yikes.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:52 AM on July 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
Pretty typical for home-town ed-cartoons. I'm struck by how phallic the cartoonist's avatar is, though. Yikes.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:52 AM on July 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
1. I love that woman.
2. In some states, the publicly available list of sex offenders includes what they were convicted of. If he gets convicted of sexual battery, hoo boy is it gonna be hard for him to get a date. And possibly a job and a rented apartment. Yeah, buddy, you made a big mistake.
posted by scratch at 5:10 AM on July 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
2. In some states, the publicly available list of sex offenders includes what they were convicted of. If he gets convicted of sexual battery, hoo boy is it gonna be hard for him to get a date. And possibly a job and a rented apartment. Yeah, buddy, you made a big mistake.
posted by scratch at 5:10 AM on July 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
that guy walking away wasn't "trying to disengage" so much as "sneaking off" though right? That's how it looks to me, anyway.
Oh, he totally groped her while her back was turned and tried to sneak away. No argument.
But my understanding was that that still counts. At least in NYC, if someone walks up, hits you, and walks away, you have to have some reasonable belief that he's about to turn around and hit you again. Otherwise, you're considered retaliating instead of defending.
Maybe because there's no indication that she injured him, the cops just figured that he deserved what he got and decided to focus on the original battery? I could hardly blame them.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 5:33 AM on July 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Oh, he totally groped her while her back was turned and tried to sneak away. No argument.
But my understanding was that that still counts. At least in NYC, if someone walks up, hits you, and walks away, you have to have some reasonable belief that he's about to turn around and hit you again. Otherwise, you're considered retaliating instead of defending.
Maybe because there's no indication that she injured him, the cops just figured that he deserved what he got and decided to focus on the original battery? I could hardly blame them.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 5:33 AM on July 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
You know, my fellow dudes, it's *so easy* to not grope and assault and catcall women. It literally takes no effort at all. And yet.
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:02 AM on July 24, 2018 [29 favorites]
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:02 AM on July 24, 2018 [29 favorites]
That video is a joy to watch.
If y’all are ever in Savannah, stop by Vinnie Van Go-Go’s it’s good pizza .
Sadly, this shit goes on way too often, to thevpoint that the local cops know the wait staff is working hard and drunk assholes get handsy. Hell, part of the reason the camera was installed was show this shit goes on and provide further back up for the wait staff.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:08 AM on July 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
If y’all are ever in Savannah, stop by Vinnie Van Go-Go’s it’s good pizza .
Sadly, this shit goes on way too often, to thevpoint that the local cops know the wait staff is working hard and drunk assholes get handsy. Hell, part of the reason the camera was installed was show this shit goes on and provide further back up for the wait staff.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:08 AM on July 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
I wouldn't say he tried to sneak away, because he seemed to be walking by, take a moment for a brief assault, continued walking because he felt he did nothing wrong. It didn't seem like he changed anything at all about his pace.
posted by jeather at 6:11 AM on July 24, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by jeather at 6:11 AM on July 24, 2018 [12 favorites]
Yes, definitely, jeather—and casually confident she would not respond. Holy cow, was he wrong!
It’s sad how pleasantly surprised so many of us are that the police actually arrested him.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:24 AM on July 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
It’s sad how pleasantly surprised so many of us are that the police actually arrested him.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:24 AM on July 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
someone walks up, hits you, and walks away, you have to have some reasonable belief that he's about to turn around and hit you again. Otherwise, you're considered retaliating instead of defending.
Given the description of how frequently this happens to the servers there, I can well believe that since her back was to him, she expected he’d continue to assault her if she didn’t defend herself.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:35 AM on July 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Given the description of how frequently this happens to the servers there, I can well believe that since her back was to him, she expected he’d continue to assault her if she didn’t defend herself.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:35 AM on July 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
When I worked at McDonald's as a teenager (presenting as female), a coworker grabbed me in a similar manner. I didn't body check him but I did yell WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING loud enough for the entire restaurant to hear. It was pretty great. He got fired, and no one ever fucked with me again.
posted by AFABulous at 6:36 AM on July 24, 2018 [31 favorites]
posted by AFABulous at 6:36 AM on July 24, 2018 [31 favorites]
”Cherwinski tried to tell Holden that he was simply trying to move her out of the way as he walked past her...”
You know how you do that? YOU SAY EXCUSE ME. YOU DON’T GRAB HER ASS.
Douchebag.
posted by panglos at 7:07 AM on July 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
You know how you do that? YOU SAY EXCUSE ME. YOU DON’T GRAB HER ASS.
Douchebag.
posted by panglos at 7:07 AM on July 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
I mean, I have occasionally had to squeeze past people and ended up having to touch them. SO I TAPPED THEIR SHOULDER AS I SAID 'EXCUSE ME' INSTEAD OF PALMING THEIR ASS.
posted by TwoStride at 7:11 AM on July 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 7:11 AM on July 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
“I work there, it was just another Saturday night. This literally happens ALL the time. We just put the cameras up so this was the first guy we’ve been able to prosecute.”
Man, it sounds like this was a combination of a) long pent-up frustration and b) the sweet, glorious knowledge that no one was going to be able to argue that this asshole didn't grope her first. I... cannot really blame her for that, in context.
“It felt a lot longer than it was, but then watching it I realized how quickly I reacted to it,” Holden told WTOC. “I’m 115 pounds. … I didn’t know I could do that.” Cherwinski weighs 175 pounds, the station reported, citing a police report.
I kind of love that response--wow, I physically can do that? I think it's a familiar feeling to anyone who's ever been suddenly hit by a catastrophic lack of fucks in combination with a sudden intense fury--it's a little bit of a heady feeling.
posted by sciatrix at 7:22 AM on July 24, 2018 [18 favorites]
Man, it sounds like this was a combination of a) long pent-up frustration and b) the sweet, glorious knowledge that no one was going to be able to argue that this asshole didn't grope her first. I... cannot really blame her for that, in context.
“It felt a lot longer than it was, but then watching it I realized how quickly I reacted to it,” Holden told WTOC. “I’m 115 pounds. … I didn’t know I could do that.” Cherwinski weighs 175 pounds, the station reported, citing a police report.
I kind of love that response--wow, I physically can do that? I think it's a familiar feeling to anyone who's ever been suddenly hit by a catastrophic lack of fucks in combination with a sudden intense fury--it's a little bit of a heady feeling.
posted by sciatrix at 7:22 AM on July 24, 2018 [18 favorites]
When I worked at McDonald's as a teenager (presenting as female), a coworker grabbed me in a similar manner. I didn't body check him but I did yell WHAT THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU'RE DOING loud enough for the entire restaurant to hear.
Similarly, I had a customer do the same. I turned and yelled (in front of at least 100 customers) “WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?? You dont fucking TOUCH ANYONE in my store!!” And kicked his ass out, then had him arrested. Turns out he did it to two of my staff right before. I wish I had done that one- handed shove first, though.
posted by greermahoney at 7:34 AM on July 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Similarly, I had a customer do the same. I turned and yelled (in front of at least 100 customers) “WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?? You dont fucking TOUCH ANYONE in my store!!” And kicked his ass out, then had him arrested. Turns out he did it to two of my staff right before. I wish I had done that one- handed shove first, though.
posted by greermahoney at 7:34 AM on July 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
This guy chose his cover well. Even here he's managing to steer the conversation: people are engaging with his "trying to move her out of the way as he walked past" excuse, discussing the proper way to get someone to make room for you.
His explanation is patently bullshit (and I think we all know that). He has plenty of room - on the video he has to reach over to touch her bottom. He just thought that was a socially acceptable cover for having come into physical contact with her, that would even put the "real" blame on her for blocking the aisle.
posted by Secret Sparrow at 7:44 AM on July 24, 2018 [15 favorites]
His explanation is patently bullshit (and I think we all know that). He has plenty of room - on the video he has to reach over to touch her bottom. He just thought that was a socially acceptable cover for having come into physical contact with her, that would even put the "real" blame on her for blocking the aisle.
posted by Secret Sparrow at 7:44 AM on July 24, 2018 [15 favorites]
The fact that he was there with his wife and kids and not a bunch of frat guys makes this so much worse/stupid
posted by bq at 7:49 AM on July 24, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by bq at 7:49 AM on July 24, 2018 [15 favorites]
This guy chose his cover well. Even here he's managing to steer the conversation: people are engaging with his "trying to move her out of the way as he walked past" excuse, discussing the proper way to get someone to make room for you.
Exactly. That shit was 100% premeditated, and I guarantee this was not the first server he's done it to.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:52 AM on July 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
Exactly. That shit was 100% premeditated, and I guarantee this was not the first server he's done it to.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:52 AM on July 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
Not just premeditated, extremely practiced/rehearsed.
Except the part about getting slammed into the furnishings. He didn't look like he had practiced that part.
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:57 AM on July 24, 2018 [60 favorites]
Except the part about getting slammed into the furnishings. He didn't look like he had practiced that part.
posted by randomkeystrike at 7:57 AM on July 24, 2018 [60 favorites]
But my understanding was that that still counts. At least in NYC, if someone walks up, hits you, and walks away, you have to have some reasonable belief that he's about to turn around and hit you again. Otherwise, you're considered retaliating instead of defending.
Maybe because there's no indication that she injured him, the cops just figured that he deserved what he got and decided to focus on the original battery? I could hardly blame them.
I mean, my experience (admittedly as a cis white male) in these sort of situations - some kind of altercation in a bar or restaurant, which I have seen in multiple states and cities - is that the cops on the scene have a lot of leeway to do whatever they deem necessary to defuse the situation and stop the fighting ASAP. Sorting out exactly who might have violated which laws gets sorted out down at the station or over the next few days by the DA's office. If the cops have even the slightest pretext to throw the cuffs on someone so they can remove them from the bar, there's a good chance they'll do that just to remove a potential troublemaker from the scene. They're not gonna sit there and parse the fine points of whether the waitress had an appropriate and legal response, they're gonna grab the drunk guy causing the problem and hustle him out.
IF Savannah has a similar law about appropriate response, it's possible the guy could try to press charges in return or start a civil suit, but I don't find it all that surprising that the cops on the scene at the moment might have taken the simplest route - "Here's the video of the guy pinching her ass, that's some kind of battery, throw him in the car and let's get this over with." The pleasant surprise being that they charged him with sexual battery, rather than just using their authority to throw him out of the bar without arresting him, or arresting him for something minor & generic like "public intoxication" or the like.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:00 AM on July 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Maybe because there's no indication that she injured him, the cops just figured that he deserved what he got and decided to focus on the original battery? I could hardly blame them.
I mean, my experience (admittedly as a cis white male) in these sort of situations - some kind of altercation in a bar or restaurant, which I have seen in multiple states and cities - is that the cops on the scene have a lot of leeway to do whatever they deem necessary to defuse the situation and stop the fighting ASAP. Sorting out exactly who might have violated which laws gets sorted out down at the station or over the next few days by the DA's office. If the cops have even the slightest pretext to throw the cuffs on someone so they can remove them from the bar, there's a good chance they'll do that just to remove a potential troublemaker from the scene. They're not gonna sit there and parse the fine points of whether the waitress had an appropriate and legal response, they're gonna grab the drunk guy causing the problem and hustle him out.
IF Savannah has a similar law about appropriate response, it's possible the guy could try to press charges in return or start a civil suit, but I don't find it all that surprising that the cops on the scene at the moment might have taken the simplest route - "Here's the video of the guy pinching her ass, that's some kind of battery, throw him in the car and let's get this over with." The pleasant surprise being that they charged him with sexual battery, rather than just using their authority to throw him out of the bar without arresting him, or arresting him for something minor & generic like "public intoxication" or the like.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:00 AM on July 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Even here he's managing to steer the conversation
I wouldn't describe getting called out on the transparently bullshit nature of his pathetic excuse as him "steering the conversation." He's a pitiful manbaby grasping desperately for any excuse that the adults might choose to accept to avoid punishing him, since he is a Good Boy at heart. But that shit's over. Instead we're all cheering for the 21-year-old who weighs 50 pounds less than him for justly beating the crap out if him in front of his wife and kids. If that's steering, never let this guy drive a car.
posted by biogeo at 8:08 AM on July 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
I wouldn't describe getting called out on the transparently bullshit nature of his pathetic excuse as him "steering the conversation." He's a pitiful manbaby grasping desperately for any excuse that the adults might choose to accept to avoid punishing him, since he is a Good Boy at heart. But that shit's over. Instead we're all cheering for the 21-year-old who weighs 50 pounds less than him for justly beating the crap out if him in front of his wife and kids. If that's steering, never let this guy drive a car.
posted by biogeo at 8:08 AM on July 24, 2018 [6 favorites]
I used to live in Savannah and recognized it immediately as Vinnie's.... the pizza place that all my punk rock friends worked at. Not surprising at all that he got his assed kicked and all the other employees helped out.
Came here to say this. I read the headline and then saw it happened at Vinnie's and instantly thought "well, this should be good."
posted by photoslob at 8:38 AM on July 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
Came here to say this. I read the headline and then saw it happened at Vinnie's and instantly thought "well, this should be good."
posted by photoslob at 8:38 AM on July 24, 2018 [4 favorites]
It would be Georgia law, not Savannah. Yes, the force was probably disproportionate and iffy as self-defense. I don't think anyone cares.
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:40 AM on July 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by snuffleupagus at 8:40 AM on July 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
Isn't Georgia a 'stand your ground' state? That, as we've seen, gives huge leeway about approriate force and defense...
posted by TwoStride at 8:58 AM on July 24, 2018
posted by TwoStride at 8:58 AM on July 24, 2018
Every time some asshole has thought that he can treat me like furniture it's been a double handed squeeze on my shoulders or waist.
posted by brujita at 9:03 AM on July 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by brujita at 9:03 AM on July 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
meaty shoe puppet: "Maybe because there's no indication that she injured him, the cops just figured that he deserved what he got and decided to focus on the original battery? I could hardly blame them."
Yep. The story would be a lot different if he'd broke his neck or something.
posted by Mitheral at 10:11 AM on July 24, 2018
Yep. The story would be a lot different if he'd broke his neck or something.
posted by Mitheral at 10:11 AM on July 24, 2018
It would be Georgia law, not Savannah. Yes, the force was probably disproportionate and iffy as self-defense. I don't think anyone cares.
Bigger thing - find a jury that's gonna convict her.
posted by azpenguin at 10:31 AM on July 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
Bigger thing - find a jury that's gonna convict her.
posted by azpenguin at 10:31 AM on July 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
I noticed that the Washington Post didn't have a comments section on this article.
Good move, WashPost.
posted by el io at 11:10 AM on July 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
Good move, WashPost.
posted by el io at 11:10 AM on July 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
The Post's comments aren't too bad—they moderate pretty well.
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:36 AM on July 24, 2018
posted by Johnny Wallflower at 11:36 AM on July 24, 2018
Someone mentioned tapping the person on the shoulder to get by them. My partner hates being touched to get her attention. Apparently people say excuse me to white workers at her job, but often just touch her. I think we ignore how people of higher perceived social station are often treated differently of those of lower social station, and that figures into this, in my view.
I think you should always, always, say "excuse me," or "pardon me," out loud, and try to avoid touching someone unless absolutely necessary (like they don't respond to your words after you have spoken clearly and loudly, or are in imminent danger if they don't immediately move, not just they are in your way).
posted by gryftir at 11:56 AM on July 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
I think you should always, always, say "excuse me," or "pardon me," out loud, and try to avoid touching someone unless absolutely necessary (like they don't respond to your words after you have spoken clearly and loudly, or are in imminent danger if they don't immediately move, not just they are in your way).
posted by gryftir at 11:56 AM on July 24, 2018 [9 favorites]
I think you should always, always, say "excuse me," or "pardon me," out loud, and try to avoid touching someone unless absolutely necessary (like they don't respond to your words after you have spoken clearly and loudly, or are in imminent danger if they don't immediately move, not just they are in your way).
yes, god. It would never occur to me to purposefully just touch someone without exhausting all other options first.
please keep your hands off me no matter how innocent the gesture, thanks
posted by nogoodverybad at 11:58 AM on July 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
yes, god. It would never occur to me to purposefully just touch someone without exhausting all other options first.
please keep your hands off me no matter how innocent the gesture, thanks
posted by nogoodverybad at 11:58 AM on July 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
He had plenty of room to get by so he didn't need her to move and he's just a fucking weaselly liar anyway.
posted by Squeak Attack at 12:17 PM on July 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Squeak Attack at 12:17 PM on July 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
I almost reflexively elbowed a coworker in the face a few years back because she touched my shoulder while I was sitting at my desk. I probably didn't hear her, but tap on the desk or get in their sight-line if you need someone's attention. There's rarely a need to touch someone besides friends or family, and there's almost never a need to do it without warning.
posted by AFABulous at 12:19 PM on July 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by AFABulous at 12:19 PM on July 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
I have watched this video a few times, and It's awesome. There is so much vehemence in the finger point that I can almost hear her saying (as reported) "You do NOT fucking touch me!" or similar.
Seriously, that finger point is a major scolding on its own.
posted by Brockles at 12:37 PM on July 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Seriously, that finger point is a major scolding on its own.
posted by Brockles at 12:37 PM on July 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
The fact that he was there with his wife and kids...
I hope she was able to ream him good when she got him home!
Maybe. I hope.
posted by BlueHorse at 1:18 PM on July 24, 2018
I hope she was able to ream him good when she got him home!
Maybe. I hope.
posted by BlueHorse at 1:18 PM on July 24, 2018
I think you should always, always, say "excuse me," or "pardon me," out loud
I wait for a moment if necessary, and then I politely say, "Excuse me."
You know how you do that? YOU SAY EXCUSE ME.
SO I TAPPED THEIR SHOULDER AS I SAID 'EXCUSE ME'
I appreciate that this is a pretty yankee-fied kinda place but since this is happening in metro Savannah I feel like I have to issue a reminder that, bless your hearts, y'all totally forgot your sir or ma'am.
(applies only in that most-of-the-time when someone seems pretty clearly to be trying to present as m or f)
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:29 PM on July 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
I wait for a moment if necessary, and then I politely say, "Excuse me."
You know how you do that? YOU SAY EXCUSE ME.
SO I TAPPED THEIR SHOULDER AS I SAID 'EXCUSE ME'
I appreciate that this is a pretty yankee-fied kinda place but since this is happening in metro Savannah I feel like I have to issue a reminder that, bless your hearts, y'all totally forgot your sir or ma'am.
(applies only in that most-of-the-time when someone seems pretty clearly to be trying to present as m or f)
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 1:29 PM on July 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
FYI, roughly speaking, some under 40 women resent the hell out of being called ma'am.
Having lived in the Savannah for the past 17 years, there's never been a problem with saying "Excuse me/Pardon me" without any gender signifier.
You CAN throw in a "young lady" or "young man" if the person has grey hair, and that'll usually spawn a smile. But not always.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:40 PM on July 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Having lived in the Savannah for the past 17 years, there's never been a problem with saying "Excuse me/Pardon me" without any gender signifier.
You CAN throw in a "young lady" or "young man" if the person has grey hair, and that'll usually spawn a smile. But not always.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:40 PM on July 24, 2018 [2 favorites]
Don't touch employees at their job. This isn't about slipping past someone or how to say excuse me. This is an assault case. Save the etiquette for an AskMe.
posted by agregoli at 2:00 PM on July 24, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 2:00 PM on July 24, 2018 [12 favorites]
I believe she was preparing for a citizen's arrest, where you have the right to detain someone if you've seen them commit a crime. For misdemeanors, that may only be allowed if the crime includes breach of peace: "individuals can only make arrests when they have personally witnessed the criminal behavior and the breach has just occurred or there is a strong likelihood that the breach will continue."
I'd say there was a strong likelihood it would continue if he weren't stopped immediately.
"Individuals must only use the amount of force that is reasonable and necessary to make the arrest" - if she said, "hey there, STOP; sit here while I call the cops," he would've laughed and left. Or he would've taken a swing at her. She had to use enough force to convince him to stick around.
(IANAL. IANA cop. I suspect that cops in Georgia who are sympathetic to waitstaff are willing to tolerate a bit of "I didn't know how drunk he was so I couldn't risk letting him get in a punch in addition to the assault he'd already done.")
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 5:05 PM on July 24, 2018
I'd say there was a strong likelihood it would continue if he weren't stopped immediately.
"Individuals must only use the amount of force that is reasonable and necessary to make the arrest" - if she said, "hey there, STOP; sit here while I call the cops," he would've laughed and left. Or he would've taken a swing at her. She had to use enough force to convince him to stick around.
(IANAL. IANA cop. I suspect that cops in Georgia who are sympathetic to waitstaff are willing to tolerate a bit of "I didn't know how drunk he was so I couldn't risk letting him get in a punch in addition to the assault he'd already done.")
posted by ErisLordFreedom at 5:05 PM on July 24, 2018
Knowing the place, there is no restroom in the restaurant. You have to go around the corner to a separate door that leads to a bathroom for all the businesses in the area - think "Festival Mall".
Also looks like late at night, the place isn't packed. he probably had a snootful and was headed to the toilet.
Not much makes me proud of this town.
The way people acted to each other after the hurricane before power was restored was one of those times.
This was another.
BTW folks, she asked that people think of her Pet rescue charities.
posted by rudd135 at 5:21 PM on July 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
Also looks like late at night, the place isn't packed. he probably had a snootful and was headed to the toilet.
Not much makes me proud of this town.
The way people acted to each other after the hurricane before power was restored was one of those times.
This was another.
BTW folks, she asked that people think of her Pet rescue charities.
posted by rudd135 at 5:21 PM on July 24, 2018 [8 favorites]
At least in NYC,
This didn’t occur in NYC,this was in another state, NYC can go sit outside and sip some sweet tea.
It’s pretty simple: dude assaulted her, she made sure he wouldn’t continue the assault, called the cops, they got the story from the waitess, looked at the video and arrested him.
Seems pretty cut and dried.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:35 PM on July 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
This didn’t occur in NYC,this was in another state, NYC can go sit outside and sip some sweet tea.
It’s pretty simple: dude assaulted her, she made sure he wouldn’t continue the assault, called the cops, they got the story from the waitess, looked at the video and arrested him.
Seems pretty cut and dried.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:35 PM on July 24, 2018 [10 favorites]
Man, I love this. He turned his hand to grab her butt. Accidental, yeah, right.
Getting attention can be harder these days with so many people under their headphones, obviously not the case here. I (a male) have a co-worker (also a male) who needs his headphones to concentrate on his work, but it can be a challenge to get his attention. Fortunately he watches his IM client pretty closely and doesn’t react badly if one of us does have to tap his shoulder to get his attention.
posted by lhauser at 9:18 PM on July 24, 2018
Getting attention can be harder these days with so many people under their headphones, obviously not the case here. I (a male) have a co-worker (also a male) who needs his headphones to concentrate on his work, but it can be a challenge to get his attention. Fortunately he watches his IM client pretty closely and doesn’t react badly if one of us does have to tap his shoulder to get his attention.
posted by lhauser at 9:18 PM on July 24, 2018
The only way that was "by accident" is if he was actually trying to grab her by the pussy and got ass by accident.
posted by a humble nudibranch at 1:54 AM on July 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by a humble nudibranch at 1:54 AM on July 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
Seriously, that finger point is a major scolding on its own.
yea, I have had a few run-ins with these sorts of jerks that I have used the finger-point of justice, and it is glorious. and also apparently terrifying. which just adds to it's glory.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 4:19 AM on July 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
yea, I have had a few run-ins with these sorts of jerks that I have used the finger-point of justice, and it is glorious. and also apparently terrifying. which just adds to it's glory.
posted by 5_13_23_42_69_666 at 4:19 AM on July 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
You know, my fellow dudes, it's *so easy* to not grope and assault and catcall women. It literally takes no effort at all. And yet.
He says she was in the way? I bet he can manage not to touch dudes who are in the way.
Maybe he hasn't seen the video? Because he definitely touched her "assident". On purpose.
Or as we say around here, “on accipurpose.”
posted by Room 641-A at 7:12 AM on July 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
He says she was in the way? I bet he can manage not to touch dudes who are in the way.
Maybe he hasn't seen the video? Because he definitely touched her "assident". On purpose.
Or as we say around here, “on accipurpose.”
posted by Room 641-A at 7:12 AM on July 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
"some reasonable belief that he's about to turn around and hit you again"
Here's what I see is wrong with this. It supposes that the perpetrator, as the actor, and his act, are central. That's wrong. The central character here is the victim (survivor, acted-upon, pick your term) and how this has likely happened to her before. It's certainly happened to people in her position before, if not precisely to her. It will keep happening. There is nothing to keep it from happening, and every time it does, the victim/survivor will have to engage with remedies as if it were the first time it happened.
Not only will it happen to the next person in her position, it will happen to her again in her new position.
It will happen to the daughter of the person who takes her job at the pizza place, and it will probably happen to the daughter of the woman who threw this fucker to the ground.
It DOES NOT MATTER how he groped her, how he walked up or walked away. What matters is that he and thousands like him do it routinely and will continue to do it routinely and think nothing of doing it routinely AND ON AND ON AND ON
posted by goofyfoot at 12:40 AM on July 26, 2018 [8 favorites]
Here's what I see is wrong with this. It supposes that the perpetrator, as the actor, and his act, are central. That's wrong. The central character here is the victim (survivor, acted-upon, pick your term) and how this has likely happened to her before. It's certainly happened to people in her position before, if not precisely to her. It will keep happening. There is nothing to keep it from happening, and every time it does, the victim/survivor will have to engage with remedies as if it were the first time it happened.
Not only will it happen to the next person in her position, it will happen to her again in her new position.
It will happen to the daughter of the person who takes her job at the pizza place, and it will probably happen to the daughter of the woman who threw this fucker to the ground.
It DOES NOT MATTER how he groped her, how he walked up or walked away. What matters is that he and thousands like him do it routinely and will continue to do it routinely and think nothing of doing it routinely AND ON AND ON AND ON
posted by goofyfoot at 12:40 AM on July 26, 2018 [8 favorites]
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I am a bad, petty person. Still snickering, too.
posted by rokusan at 9:35 PM on July 23, 2018 [16 favorites]