For men, failing to be good often seems like the easiest choice
March 5, 2019 7:04 AM Subscribe
I sort of sympathize. Freaking out when you start thinking about being a parent for the first time and you have no idea what you’re doing is the most natural thing in the world; it seems to have manifested itself in a very particular way for this guy.
posted by TheShadowKnows at 7:20 AM on March 5, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by TheShadowKnows at 7:20 AM on March 5, 2019 [4 favorites]
Dude, my dude, don't overthink it. Steven Universe. There is no step 2.
posted by signal at 7:27 AM on March 5, 2019 [24 favorites]
posted by signal at 7:27 AM on March 5, 2019 [24 favorites]
Somehow those $financial_product ads beat both PiHole and uBlock Origin. I am irritated and also impressed.
posted by salt grass at 7:28 AM on March 5, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by salt grass at 7:28 AM on March 5, 2019 [9 favorites]
Teach and demonstrate good behavior and your children will follow suit.
But parents aren't the only ones children learn from. There are lots of other sources of ideology in our world. It's hard to know if you're doing enough to anticipate and counter the messages your kid is going to receive out there.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:29 AM on March 5, 2019 [51 favorites]
But parents aren't the only ones children learn from. There are lots of other sources of ideology in our world. It's hard to know if you're doing enough to anticipate and counter the messages your kid is going to receive out there.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 7:29 AM on March 5, 2019 [51 favorites]
having a boy feels like an excuse to relive my own childhood, only make it good this time — to encourage him in everything I wanted to do, but never dared to; to understand him on a level that, I always felt growing up, my own parents never could understand me. A second self, that I can form into being a far more happier and more successful person than I, personally, have ever been capable of being.
I think a higher priority than anything about gender, for this particular dad, is letting go of this stuff.
posted by escabeche at 7:30 AM on March 5, 2019 [58 favorites]
I think a higher priority than anything about gender, for this particular dad, is letting go of this stuff.
posted by escabeche at 7:30 AM on March 5, 2019 [58 favorites]
Look, I also freaked out when I learned I was having a son. I had not been friends with boys growing up; they were jerks! How could I possibly relate to one as my son?
Turns out, babies is babies and babies mostly just need love and care for the first few years, so that gave me some breathing room. (also per his fear in the article, my kiddo never peed in my face during changing, so that's possible!)
Once they start noticing the world more, that's when you have to be aware of modeling behaviors. His dad liked to cook, so that was good. I was the only one who cared much about cleaning, that was something we are still dealing with; I have to consciously talk about the division of labor with my kiddo and how things should be and that's hard when his parents didn't 100% get it right (we're split now, so not sure if that will help or hurt).
But yes: Steven Universe. Stories with girl heroes, in general, as a totally normal thing. Being an out and proud feminist. Talking about consent, a lot (he is now at the point where he lectures ME when I adjust his shirt without asking; touche, kid).
But he's 13 and I still don't know if we succeeded. He could still decide to be a jerk. I hope he won't; he's compassionate and sensitive and I didn't have to teach him to resist authority, he came out that way. But a lot of the work will be up to him now.
posted by emjaybee at 7:35 AM on March 5, 2019 [19 favorites]
Turns out, babies is babies and babies mostly just need love and care for the first few years, so that gave me some breathing room. (also per his fear in the article, my kiddo never peed in my face during changing, so that's possible!)
Once they start noticing the world more, that's when you have to be aware of modeling behaviors. His dad liked to cook, so that was good. I was the only one who cared much about cleaning, that was something we are still dealing with; I have to consciously talk about the division of labor with my kiddo and how things should be and that's hard when his parents didn't 100% get it right (we're split now, so not sure if that will help or hurt).
But yes: Steven Universe. Stories with girl heroes, in general, as a totally normal thing. Being an out and proud feminist. Talking about consent, a lot (he is now at the point where he lectures ME when I adjust his shirt without asking; touche, kid).
But he's 13 and I still don't know if we succeeded. He could still decide to be a jerk. I hope he won't; he's compassionate and sensitive and I didn't have to teach him to resist authority, he came out that way. But a lot of the work will be up to him now.
posted by emjaybee at 7:35 AM on March 5, 2019 [19 favorites]
I'm glad I didn't know whether we were having a boy or girl the first time around, it helped me avoid thinking about "what kind of Man am I bringing into the world?" and just think about the baby we were having and how to prepare him or her for the world, in a way that was necessarily divorced from gender. And I think that maybe having this four or five month period where literally all people know about their child is the nature of their genetalia fosters a sort of gender essentialism that maybe we could avoid. It certainly seems to me that this guy might benefit from it, if only through reduced anxiety.
posted by skewed at 7:37 AM on March 5, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by skewed at 7:37 AM on March 5, 2019 [3 favorites]
I think a higher priority than anything about gender, for this particular dad, is letting go of this stuff.
Seriously. He sounds like he thinks he's going to have a Frankenstein monster sewn together from thinkpieces, not an autonomous human who is going to have flaws and make mistakes.
posted by thelonius at 7:47 AM on March 5, 2019 [15 favorites]
Seriously. He sounds like he thinks he's going to have a Frankenstein monster sewn together from thinkpieces, not an autonomous human who is going to have flaws and make mistakes.
posted by thelonius at 7:47 AM on March 5, 2019 [15 favorites]
On a practical level: Seek out male friends who are good men. And pay attention to what women and non-cis-men say about those guys - if you think a fellow is a great guy and women frequently find him creepy, abusive or dangerous; if you think a fellow is a great guy but there's a rumor going around that he's a rapist; if you think that a fellow is a great guy but you notice that he is always making himself the center of attention, bossing others, etc - well, that means he's just a great guy around you.
And seek out male friends who share your values around things other than gendered concerns - who aren't hypnotized by money and material possessions, who don't take advantage of the weak or ignorant, who don't, eg, bully homeless people. Seek out male friends who know themselves - men who, for instance, think through whether they want kids before they have kids rather than having kids and being absent fathers; men who think seriously about whether they want to be in a committed relationship before entering one rather than treating a string of partners badly.
It's not just you, it's the men around you. It's what you show your child that you accept or value. The bigger the world of good men that your child sees, the weaker the majority/asshole world will be in comparison, so don't just keep asshole men in your life.
~~
Also, keep your kids off YouTube! Lock it away! Not a gendered thing, but I'm helping out with a friend's kid right now, and she sneaked into the YouTube and watched some meme-related channel and when we noticed, we saw that it was full of Nazi memes. And TBH the rest of the content isn't that much better. Keep your kids off YouTube.
posted by Frowner at 7:47 AM on March 5, 2019 [47 favorites]
And seek out male friends who share your values around things other than gendered concerns - who aren't hypnotized by money and material possessions, who don't take advantage of the weak or ignorant, who don't, eg, bully homeless people. Seek out male friends who know themselves - men who, for instance, think through whether they want kids before they have kids rather than having kids and being absent fathers; men who think seriously about whether they want to be in a committed relationship before entering one rather than treating a string of partners badly.
It's not just you, it's the men around you. It's what you show your child that you accept or value. The bigger the world of good men that your child sees, the weaker the majority/asshole world will be in comparison, so don't just keep asshole men in your life.
~~
Also, keep your kids off YouTube! Lock it away! Not a gendered thing, but I'm helping out with a friend's kid right now, and she sneaked into the YouTube and watched some meme-related channel and when we noticed, we saw that it was full of Nazi memes. And TBH the rest of the content isn't that much better. Keep your kids off YouTube.
posted by Frowner at 7:47 AM on March 5, 2019 [47 favorites]
And so, I suppose, I need to forget about that little one sitting on my knee with the same face as me. I need to let my son grow a face of his own. I love you so much already, wee lad. I can't wait to find out who you are.
Seems like he has things figured out. It's a good thing he and other guys are openly discussing fatherhood and that being a father has never been more difficult because the world is fractured and makes so little sense right now. You can't change what you don't see.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 7:59 AM on March 5, 2019 [9 favorites]
Seems like he has things figured out. It's a good thing he and other guys are openly discussing fatherhood and that being a father has never been more difficult because the world is fractured and makes so little sense right now. You can't change what you don't see.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 7:59 AM on March 5, 2019 [9 favorites]
I had a bit of this freakout myself when I had a son -- not exactly that men are terrible, I knew plenty of men who aren't, but that I had a clear idea of how I disagreed with society's expectations for girls, and knew what I wanted to push back against for my daughter. For a son, I had a picture of how some men turn out bad, but I didn't have a clear idea (beyond the obvious Free To Be You And Me kind of thing) what exactly was wrong with what society did to boys. He's seventeen now, and seems to be a good kid, although as his mother I may not be able to judge.
I don't know that there's all that much to it beyond, you know, expecting and modeling decent behavior.
posted by LizardBreath at 8:01 AM on March 5, 2019 [3 favorites]
I don't know that there's all that much to it beyond, you know, expecting and modeling decent behavior.
posted by LizardBreath at 8:01 AM on March 5, 2019 [3 favorites]
IDK about this advice not to overthink. I'm firmly in the YES PLS OVERTHINK AND ALSO OVERDO IT camp. That's what it takes to swim against the tide of the entire rest of the world, ya know?
Me, I was turning every animal character in every children's book female when I read to my babies. I went to war with my husband, parents, and inlaws to make them shut the fuck up about my boy wearing dresses. I gave him dolls to put into his trucks, made "no means no" and "if one person isn't having fun, the game stops" into major household mantras, and resolutely referred to every hypothetical firefighter as "she" and every hypothetical nurse as "he". When people ask him if he has a girlfriend (it starts so early, and he's only 10 yet) I always make sure to add "or boyfriend?" to their question.
And it pays off, the work does. My kid isn't perfect, he still has absorbed a bunch of unsavory messages from the rest of the world, but he pushes back against his friends laughing at his painted toes and he will always have my voice in his head saying "he OR SHE" every time he uses a pronoun for an unknown person.
Overthinking works.
posted by MiraK at 8:10 AM on March 5, 2019 [71 favorites]
Me, I was turning every animal character in every children's book female when I read to my babies. I went to war with my husband, parents, and inlaws to make them shut the fuck up about my boy wearing dresses. I gave him dolls to put into his trucks, made "no means no" and "if one person isn't having fun, the game stops" into major household mantras, and resolutely referred to every hypothetical firefighter as "she" and every hypothetical nurse as "he". When people ask him if he has a girlfriend (it starts so early, and he's only 10 yet) I always make sure to add "or boyfriend?" to their question.
And it pays off, the work does. My kid isn't perfect, he still has absorbed a bunch of unsavory messages from the rest of the world, but he pushes back against his friends laughing at his painted toes and he will always have my voice in his head saying "he OR SHE" every time he uses a pronoun for an unknown person.
Overthinking works.
posted by MiraK at 8:10 AM on March 5, 2019 [71 favorites]
I was just thinking the other day about how Achewood taught me a lot about the experience of American masculinity, for better and worse.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:13 AM on March 5, 2019 [15 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 8:13 AM on March 5, 2019 [15 favorites]
I don't know that there's all that much to it beyond, you know, expecting and modeling decent behavior.
I think not enforcing - and countering and problematizing - essentialist or toxic gender expectations ("boys don't do this", "boys don't play with this", etc.) is also helpful.
We've ended up with a 8 year old boy that loves fart jokes, roughhousing, prehistoric sharks, and Lego ninjas, but who is also into making Barbie clothes and baking, regularly cries at sad parts in movies, and is insistent about wearing his hair long and sometimes in pigtails, even though he regularly gets mistaken for a girl because of it.
It seems like a pretty good approximation of who he actually is, and maybe a product of our not telling him what he's supposed to be interested in, or how he is supposed to feel about things that aren't directly related to the usual required kid-discipline stuff.
I feel bad for this guy - being a father to a son is often a really interesting and rewarding experience, and you can get a lot of mileage out of just not being an asshole, and from not letting other assholes tell you how to parent.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:13 AM on March 5, 2019 [8 favorites]
I think not enforcing - and countering and problematizing - essentialist or toxic gender expectations ("boys don't do this", "boys don't play with this", etc.) is also helpful.
We've ended up with a 8 year old boy that loves fart jokes, roughhousing, prehistoric sharks, and Lego ninjas, but who is also into making Barbie clothes and baking, regularly cries at sad parts in movies, and is insistent about wearing his hair long and sometimes in pigtails, even though he regularly gets mistaken for a girl because of it.
It seems like a pretty good approximation of who he actually is, and maybe a product of our not telling him what he's supposed to be interested in, or how he is supposed to feel about things that aren't directly related to the usual required kid-discipline stuff.
I feel bad for this guy - being a father to a son is often a really interesting and rewarding experience, and you can get a lot of mileage out of just not being an asshole, and from not letting other assholes tell you how to parent.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:13 AM on March 5, 2019 [8 favorites]
I think a higher priority than anything about gender, for this particular dad, is letting go of this stuff.
Oh, I dunno. I mean, we have a daughter, two sons, and another daughter. The kids are mostly-good kids, though being a teenager is hard these days. They all volunteer a lot, none of them is a sexist pig or a racist: we're pretty proud.
Now, my sons are only two years apart but are very different -- and yet I very much wish that I could get them both to be better than I was, and to succeed at the stuff that I now know I was bad at. *shrug* But teenagers sometimes just....don't listen to their parents, and a lot of my talk is simply ignored.
Anyway, the writer recognizes that he isn't perfect and is hoping the next generation is better, and I have to admit that I agree with that much.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:15 AM on March 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
Oh, I dunno. I mean, we have a daughter, two sons, and another daughter. The kids are mostly-good kids, though being a teenager is hard these days. They all volunteer a lot, none of them is a sexist pig or a racist: we're pretty proud.
Now, my sons are only two years apart but are very different -- and yet I very much wish that I could get them both to be better than I was, and to succeed at the stuff that I now know I was bad at. *shrug* But teenagers sometimes just....don't listen to their parents, and a lot of my talk is simply ignored.
Anyway, the writer recognizes that he isn't perfect and is hoping the next generation is better, and I have to admit that I agree with that much.
posted by wenestvedt at 8:15 AM on March 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
Teach and demonstrate good behavior and your children will follow suit.
You would think that...
What I have learned 16 1/2 year after having a son is that at any point all your expectations about anything can be tossed out the window. Lather rinse, repeat.
Try to raise a good human. Teach it love and respect. Some of it might stick. Love your child.
posted by bondcliff at 8:26 AM on March 5, 2019 [8 favorites]
You would think that...
What I have learned 16 1/2 year after having a son is that at any point all your expectations about anything can be tossed out the window. Lather rinse, repeat.
Try to raise a good human. Teach it love and respect. Some of it might stick. Love your child.
posted by bondcliff at 8:26 AM on March 5, 2019 [8 favorites]
I... made "no means no"... into [a] major household mantra
Huh. I wonder how this works when you tell a two-year-old to go to bed and he shouts "NO!"
posted by SPrintF at 8:27 AM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
Huh. I wonder how this works when you tell a two-year-old to go to bed and he shouts "NO!"
posted by SPrintF at 8:27 AM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
I wonder how this works when you tell a two-year-old to go to bed and he shouts "NO!"
Oh, that's easy. You join in with them all concerned-like, and negotiate and bribe and use parental trickery to gain co-operation. 2 yr olds are dumb af, easy to outwit.
The real question is, what am I going to do when the kids are 15 and I ask them to come home at 10 pm and they say NO. I am assuming my parenting skills will magically level up. Send klonopin pls.
posted by MiraK at 8:36 AM on March 5, 2019 [7 favorites]
Oh, that's easy. You join in with them all concerned-like, and negotiate and bribe and use parental trickery to gain co-operation. 2 yr olds are dumb af, easy to outwit.
The real question is, what am I going to do when the kids are 15 and I ask them to come home at 10 pm and they say NO. I am assuming my parenting skills will magically level up. Send klonopin pls.
posted by MiraK at 8:36 AM on March 5, 2019 [7 favorites]
Also, keep your kids off YouTube! Lock it away!
I'm raising sons and this is probably our biggest issue and my biggest fear, besides their peers. There is a toxic model of masculinity that is very prevalent on the 'net and in gaming culture.
But our family's solution (of many) is not to lock it away and have them discover it right at the point that they are rebelling and we no longer have years ahead to guide them. We watch YouTube with them...my eldest was talking about an Egyptian pyramid conspiracy-type theory his friends had told him about so we watched the video together and discussed science and why people are attracted by conspiracy theories...and then yes, that did bring up a rabbit hole of YouTube videos (on my account) so we discussed that.
Listening is so important, too. I volunteer to drive my son's friends around and in fact got a minivan to do so, and if I am quiet, I learn quite a lot.
Specifically:
"No means no" -- we have actually taught affirmative consent. So, for example, you don't play games, especially games where you are shooting Nerf darts or throwing balls at people, without asking people first if they want to play. And if someone says "stop touching me!" you do, after the age you have to keep them from running into the road. When my kids were very small I would (if it wasn't an immediate danger thing) say things like "If you can't stay in bed yourself, mummy will help you get back into the bed. But you can choose."
We have actively sought out activities for our kids (martial arts, a very diversity-focused arts camp, a D&D group at our local game shop that is committed to attracting players of colour and women) where our values are supported and where they can meet friends whose families also are paying $cash$ to send their boys to that activity. As a result, we have a network of families working together to raise our sons to support our values. I also did the same with a mom-tot group years ago. Also, this is time not spent gaming/online.
We talk a lot about equality, equity, respect, affirmative consent, responsibility, etc.
Our public school is doing an excellent job. My son just finished an assignment on residential schools that really required a lot of thinking. Parents are not alone in this fight.
We're not done, by a long shot, but so far so good. There are so many parents, educators, and community leaders out there dedicated to this work, and when we get together it is actually pretty powerful stuff.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:37 AM on March 5, 2019 [21 favorites]
I'm raising sons and this is probably our biggest issue and my biggest fear, besides their peers. There is a toxic model of masculinity that is very prevalent on the 'net and in gaming culture.
But our family's solution (of many) is not to lock it away and have them discover it right at the point that they are rebelling and we no longer have years ahead to guide them. We watch YouTube with them...my eldest was talking about an Egyptian pyramid conspiracy-type theory his friends had told him about so we watched the video together and discussed science and why people are attracted by conspiracy theories...and then yes, that did bring up a rabbit hole of YouTube videos (on my account) so we discussed that.
Listening is so important, too. I volunteer to drive my son's friends around and in fact got a minivan to do so, and if I am quiet, I learn quite a lot.
Specifically:
"No means no" -- we have actually taught affirmative consent. So, for example, you don't play games, especially games where you are shooting Nerf darts or throwing balls at people, without asking people first if they want to play. And if someone says "stop touching me!" you do, after the age you have to keep them from running into the road. When my kids were very small I would (if it wasn't an immediate danger thing) say things like "If you can't stay in bed yourself, mummy will help you get back into the bed. But you can choose."
We have actively sought out activities for our kids (martial arts, a very diversity-focused arts camp, a D&D group at our local game shop that is committed to attracting players of colour and women) where our values are supported and where they can meet friends whose families also are paying $cash$ to send their boys to that activity. As a result, we have a network of families working together to raise our sons to support our values. I also did the same with a mom-tot group years ago. Also, this is time not spent gaming/online.
We talk a lot about equality, equity, respect, affirmative consent, responsibility, etc.
Our public school is doing an excellent job. My son just finished an assignment on residential schools that really required a lot of thinking. Parents are not alone in this fight.
We're not done, by a long shot, but so far so good. There are so many parents, educators, and community leaders out there dedicated to this work, and when we get together it is actually pretty powerful stuff.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:37 AM on March 5, 2019 [21 favorites]
A few years ago, I had several lady friends who all crowed about how happy they were when they found out they were having boys. These were progressive, cool ladies, at least one of whom I met at women's college. Their whole, oh thank god, I'm having a boy. Boys are so much easier and so much nicer and God, teenage girls are THE WORST and now I don't have to worry about vicariously transmitting my of my weird body image issues onto my children because boys are cool and smart and they totally don't have any problems really bummed me out so much that I kind of had to stop hanging out with them for a while. One of them STILL talks all the time about how happy she is having a boy because girls are just so dramatic and neurotic.
Anyway, I guess this article is like the other foot. It doesn't make me feel better, exactly. I'm not a parent, but I just want to be like, your kid is a kid, let them be a kid, all your negative, stereotypical presumptions about your baby's gender are not helping
posted by thivaia at 8:39 AM on March 5, 2019 [11 favorites]
Anyway, I guess this article is like the other foot. It doesn't make me feel better, exactly. I'm not a parent, but I just want to be like, your kid is a kid, let them be a kid, all your negative, stereotypical presumptions about your baby's gender are not helping
posted by thivaia at 8:39 AM on March 5, 2019 [11 favorites]
"The real question is, what am I going to do when the kids are 15 and I ask them to come home at 10 pm and they say NO. I am assuming my parenting skills will magically level up. Send klonopin pls. "
Buy them a subscription to WoW or the modern equivalent so they will just choose to be at home all night anyway.
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:42 AM on March 5, 2019
Buy them a subscription to WoW or the modern equivalent so they will just choose to be at home all night anyway.
posted by GoblinHoney at 8:42 AM on March 5, 2019
Right, because online gaming is so non-toxic.
posted by agregoli at 8:47 AM on March 5, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by agregoli at 8:47 AM on March 5, 2019 [8 favorites]
Huh. I wonder how this works when you tell a two-year-old to go to bed and he shouts "NO!"
Congrats, you've made the same joke my father makes every time I try to teach my kid that he can't hit other children for not wanting to play with him!
And I mean, yes, I know, you're making a joke, but one of my very first memories of sexuality as a kid is of waking up in my childhood bedroom, opening the door to my room, and seeing my father chase my mother down the hall. I asked what was going on, and my mother shouted that my father wanted her to have sex, and she didn't want to.
Hoarse with anger, my father turned around and shouted for me to close the door, and to my deep and eternal shame, I did. I have vivid memories of being six years old and curled up in a corner of the kitchen floor while my father kicked me.
Now, I have a three year old, and my father -- my abusive, violent, selfish, emotionally repressed, rapist of a father -- is my son's favorite playmate, because my mother refuses to leave my father for complicated reasons of her own, and that means they show up at my house every weekend, looking to spend time with their grandson. And when they show up at my house, my mother is so glad to not have to be near my father that she hides away in the kitchen, ceding the living room to my dad, who then spends the whole day there, showing my kid how to make paper airplanes and pillow forts and being endlessly goddamn patient about reading toddler book after book to him, because my father drinks up the adoration that my kid gives him.
But I still remember how vividly I learned that my father did not take no for an answer in any dimension of his life where he had power, so we will continue teaching my son that no means no.
Yes, you told a joke, SPrintF, but not a novel one or a funny one to me.
I wrestle with a lot of the questions that the author of the article did, even though I'm a cis lady. In a lot of ways, my father raised me like the son he didn't have, and I'm determined not to let it pass to my son.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:48 AM on March 5, 2019 [39 favorites]
Congrats, you've made the same joke my father makes every time I try to teach my kid that he can't hit other children for not wanting to play with him!
And I mean, yes, I know, you're making a joke, but one of my very first memories of sexuality as a kid is of waking up in my childhood bedroom, opening the door to my room, and seeing my father chase my mother down the hall. I asked what was going on, and my mother shouted that my father wanted her to have sex, and she didn't want to.
Hoarse with anger, my father turned around and shouted for me to close the door, and to my deep and eternal shame, I did. I have vivid memories of being six years old and curled up in a corner of the kitchen floor while my father kicked me.
Now, I have a three year old, and my father -- my abusive, violent, selfish, emotionally repressed, rapist of a father -- is my son's favorite playmate, because my mother refuses to leave my father for complicated reasons of her own, and that means they show up at my house every weekend, looking to spend time with their grandson. And when they show up at my house, my mother is so glad to not have to be near my father that she hides away in the kitchen, ceding the living room to my dad, who then spends the whole day there, showing my kid how to make paper airplanes and pillow forts and being endlessly goddamn patient about reading toddler book after book to him, because my father drinks up the adoration that my kid gives him.
But I still remember how vividly I learned that my father did not take no for an answer in any dimension of his life where he had power, so we will continue teaching my son that no means no.
Yes, you told a joke, SPrintF, but not a novel one or a funny one to me.
I wrestle with a lot of the questions that the author of the article did, even though I'm a cis lady. In a lot of ways, my father raised me like the son he didn't have, and I'm determined not to let it pass to my son.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:48 AM on March 5, 2019 [39 favorites]
remember this, thinkpiece writer
the values you work so hard to instill in your kids in their early years are the ones they will rebel against when they start entering adolescence
have fun squaring that circle bye
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:50 AM on March 5, 2019 [3 favorites]
the values you work so hard to instill in your kids in their early years are the ones they will rebel against when they start entering adolescence
have fun squaring that circle bye
posted by prize bull octorok at 8:50 AM on March 5, 2019 [3 favorites]
Also, keep your kids off YouTube!
I agree mostly with your comment Frowner (and similar comments above) but I'd add, especially in regards to Youtube & media in general, that you can't entirely keep it away from them so it is critical to teach them early about the media they consume and evaluate its worth. I'm not talking about exposing them to the worst of Youtube but to be open to talking about protecting themselves and to recognise the good and bad. As parents there is always the desire to protect your children from the worst of the world & to keep it hidden from them but I think it is better to approach it gradually in terms they can understand.
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:52 AM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
I agree mostly with your comment Frowner (and similar comments above) but I'd add, especially in regards to Youtube & media in general, that you can't entirely keep it away from them so it is critical to teach them early about the media they consume and evaluate its worth. I'm not talking about exposing them to the worst of Youtube but to be open to talking about protecting themselves and to recognise the good and bad. As parents there is always the desire to protect your children from the worst of the world & to keep it hidden from them but I think it is better to approach it gradually in terms they can understand.
posted by Ashwagandha at 8:52 AM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
JFC like I needed more evidence that most people just shouldn't reproduce.
posted by aspersioncast at 8:53 AM on March 5, 2019
posted by aspersioncast at 8:53 AM on March 5, 2019
I do a fair amount of volunteer work with older teenagers and young adults and—I freely admit this is obviously open to sample bias—it's been really heartening. My general sense is that the world is going to hell, to the point where I have serious questions about whether I want kids because of the seemingly high odds they're going to die horribly as our unsustainable civilization consumes itself, but... the young people I know seem, somehow, just nicer than what I remember of people at that age.
That sounds trivializing, but I don't mean it that way; they genuinely seem more decent and caring and respectful of each other than I recall anyone being in highschool.
Naturally, maybe they're just performing self-awareness for me, and are shitty to each other when nobody is looking. It's hard to say. Maybe it's a perverse, positive side-effect of the stakes being so much higher, the margin for any error at all in life slimmer, resulting in the sort of casual fuckery that characterized that period of life getting finally wrung out of youth culture. Or maybe I'm just not seeing the real shitheels because they're probably not volunteering, they're off getting drunk and sexually assaulting people in parking lots like it's still the Reagan Administration. I dunno.
But I know I'd do four years in a Federal Correctional Institution of someone else's choice before I'd step into a time machine and do my highschool years again. But if it was four years with the kids that I see in that age bracket today, it'd be a harder pick. And they're in basically the same demographic that I was in, economically and socially; it's not like I'm suddenly seeing how the other half lives.
So while some things—most things, and sadly some of the most critical things—are all moving in the wrong direction, and I still think we're quite possibly looking at a future that will make the worst parts of the 20th century seem like a pleasant memory... the kids seem, strangely, alright.
Whatever people are doing with respect to their kids, whether it's parents or teachers or culture in general, by and large, it seems to be working. Maybe the fact that this guy is even worried about it is a good sign.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:58 AM on March 5, 2019 [15 favorites]
That sounds trivializing, but I don't mean it that way; they genuinely seem more decent and caring and respectful of each other than I recall anyone being in highschool.
Naturally, maybe they're just performing self-awareness for me, and are shitty to each other when nobody is looking. It's hard to say. Maybe it's a perverse, positive side-effect of the stakes being so much higher, the margin for any error at all in life slimmer, resulting in the sort of casual fuckery that characterized that period of life getting finally wrung out of youth culture. Or maybe I'm just not seeing the real shitheels because they're probably not volunteering, they're off getting drunk and sexually assaulting people in parking lots like it's still the Reagan Administration. I dunno.
But I know I'd do four years in a Federal Correctional Institution of someone else's choice before I'd step into a time machine and do my highschool years again. But if it was four years with the kids that I see in that age bracket today, it'd be a harder pick. And they're in basically the same demographic that I was in, economically and socially; it's not like I'm suddenly seeing how the other half lives.
So while some things—most things, and sadly some of the most critical things—are all moving in the wrong direction, and I still think we're quite possibly looking at a future that will make the worst parts of the 20th century seem like a pleasant memory... the kids seem, strangely, alright.
Whatever people are doing with respect to their kids, whether it's parents or teachers or culture in general, by and large, it seems to be working. Maybe the fact that this guy is even worried about it is a good sign.
posted by Kadin2048 at 8:58 AM on March 5, 2019 [15 favorites]
I found out that me and Mrs. Dillionaire will also be bringing a young male into the world. We're due in April. I must admit that these undulations of panic did occasionally rear their head.
I guess in some regards I would encourage future parents that have worries about gender struggles to unpack the whole thing one more level. Gender, is a social construct...it's also not absolute. So, instead of thinking about what is or is not dangling...just show compassion and love and be the parent you wish to be the most. I've been surprised with the amount of coworkers that assume that my young boy is either going to be "so pink and purple and liberal he identifies himself as a muppet" or "he'll pop out with a tiny beard and that'll be the only way to see him in his camo snuggies"... Be present and attentive and focused and leave the fear based parenting behind. The little one doesn't have to immediately identify as being a "feminist man" he just has to not eat too many bugs and leave the marbles out of his nose.
posted by Dillionaire at 8:58 AM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
I guess in some regards I would encourage future parents that have worries about gender struggles to unpack the whole thing one more level. Gender, is a social construct...it's also not absolute. So, instead of thinking about what is or is not dangling...just show compassion and love and be the parent you wish to be the most. I've been surprised with the amount of coworkers that assume that my young boy is either going to be "so pink and purple and liberal he identifies himself as a muppet" or "he'll pop out with a tiny beard and that'll be the only way to see him in his camo snuggies"... Be present and attentive and focused and leave the fear based parenting behind. The little one doesn't have to immediately identify as being a "feminist man" he just has to not eat too many bugs and leave the marbles out of his nose.
posted by Dillionaire at 8:58 AM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
IANAP but i second these thoughts
1) monitoring and providing context and counter weights to internet time is a huge new issue, TV has its downsides but the adictivity and toxicity of ipads and,smart phones /the internet can be unrival.
2) how quickly children pick up,swearing is a good bellweather for how "we will be perfect around them and they will only learn from us" is not a great parenting strategy. they might spend 90% of their toddler time,with you and,you might be on your best behavior 99% of the time and they will talk like sailors.
3) the more above average you are in some aspect of life, the harder it will be for your child to meet, let alone exceed you in that aspect. regression to the mea is a thing. love your child even when they do worse than you.
4) only in the first few years of your childs life will you be the major influence, they will spend most of their childhood learning from other children. those children will be a grab bag of nonsense and marketing.
5) It is absolutely important to address directly and indirectly toxic masculinity and how what is/was "normal" in society is harmful. "your grandpa loves you, and we love, lets talk about how he treats female waitors and why thats not ok"
posted by Anchorite_of_Palgrave at 9:00 AM on March 5, 2019 [3 favorites]
1) monitoring and providing context and counter weights to internet time is a huge new issue, TV has its downsides but the adictivity and toxicity of ipads and,smart phones /the internet can be unrival.
2) how quickly children pick up,swearing is a good bellweather for how "we will be perfect around them and they will only learn from us" is not a great parenting strategy. they might spend 90% of their toddler time,with you and,you might be on your best behavior 99% of the time and they will talk like sailors.
3) the more above average you are in some aspect of life, the harder it will be for your child to meet, let alone exceed you in that aspect. regression to the mea is a thing. love your child even when they do worse than you.
4) only in the first few years of your childs life will you be the major influence, they will spend most of their childhood learning from other children. those children will be a grab bag of nonsense and marketing.
5) It is absolutely important to address directly and indirectly toxic masculinity and how what is/was "normal" in society is harmful. "your grandpa loves you, and we love, lets talk about how he treats female waitors and why thats not ok"
posted by Anchorite_of_Palgrave at 9:00 AM on March 5, 2019 [3 favorites]
Heh. Ninety percent of the effect you will have on your child's behavior will be genetic. Of the remaining ten percent, most of what has effect will be what you do, not what you say, and you won't know most of what you do till you see the child imitate it, because you do it unthinkingly. No matter what you do, your child will turn out like you in deeply surprising, embarrassing ways.
That said, I think that when raising any child rigorous attention to fairness and justice is at least as important as sensitivity to other people's feelings. I can't say about girls, but boys sometimes find themselves among people who are just bad, and often find themselves among people who are wrong about just about everything. In circumstances like that, you don't want to be thinking about not hurting your friends' feelings. You want to be wondering if what is going on is fair or right.
I worried about all the wrong things when raising my boy, and he has turned out embarrassingly and revealingly like me, but damn he turned out fine in a lot of ways. Some of it is his mother, but some of it is just his own work, looking at the hand we dealt him and figuring out how to play it. They do that.
posted by ckridge at 9:10 AM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
That said, I think that when raising any child rigorous attention to fairness and justice is at least as important as sensitivity to other people's feelings. I can't say about girls, but boys sometimes find themselves among people who are just bad, and often find themselves among people who are wrong about just about everything. In circumstances like that, you don't want to be thinking about not hurting your friends' feelings. You want to be wondering if what is going on is fair or right.
I worried about all the wrong things when raising my boy, and he has turned out embarrassingly and revealingly like me, but damn he turned out fine in a lot of ways. Some of it is his mother, but some of it is just his own work, looking at the hand we dealt him and figuring out how to play it. They do that.
posted by ckridge at 9:10 AM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
But parents aren't the only ones children learn from. There are lots of other sources of ideology in our world. It's hard to know if you're doing enough to anticipate and counter the messages your kid is going to receive out there.
It's not really that hard. I have a 14 y.o. son. We talk. All the time. this helps me know if I am anticipating and countering messages he's getting out there. One of the skills I'm trying to give him is critical thinking.
He reads Metafilter over my shoulder, and he also watches a lot on Youtube. He basically taught himself how to use a 3-d printer, how to build an aluminum foundry, how to make a medieval shield, and how to backlight his 3ds. I was careful all along, and most of his exposure to youtube came from places like the Kid Should See This, so his idea of the content was educational. We did talk about the toxicity of online communities, and his school did as well. He seems to have gotten the message and his behavior seems to reflect that. It's the feedback i get from teachers as well (that he has great empathy and is very inclusive and that his circle of friends are "good kids")
Maybe I'm lucky that Steven Universe has also been an influence. maybe i'm just lucky.
Youtube is no greater evil in this world than the bible imo, so long as we're talking about what's in it and how it can be used.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:18 AM on March 5, 2019 [4 favorites]
It's not really that hard. I have a 14 y.o. son. We talk. All the time. this helps me know if I am anticipating and countering messages he's getting out there. One of the skills I'm trying to give him is critical thinking.
He reads Metafilter over my shoulder, and he also watches a lot on Youtube. He basically taught himself how to use a 3-d printer, how to build an aluminum foundry, how to make a medieval shield, and how to backlight his 3ds. I was careful all along, and most of his exposure to youtube came from places like the Kid Should See This, so his idea of the content was educational. We did talk about the toxicity of online communities, and his school did as well. He seems to have gotten the message and his behavior seems to reflect that. It's the feedback i get from teachers as well (that he has great empathy and is very inclusive and that his circle of friends are "good kids")
Maybe I'm lucky that Steven Universe has also been an influence. maybe i'm just lucky.
Youtube is no greater evil in this world than the bible imo, so long as we're talking about what's in it and how it can be used.
posted by OHenryPacey at 9:18 AM on March 5, 2019 [4 favorites]
Trans parent of a boy reporting in:
I don't think this dad is overthinking it. As a pathological overthinker, I promise I've overthought it harder. What he's actually trying to do, or should be trying to do, is to learn what it is to embody masculinity without being a douche. It's hard. Because how can his son, if even he can't? He's looking back on the lessons he's learned and the people (mostly female people) he's hurt. And how can you protect your own child from learning those lessons?
My son is only 8, but I also work extensively with queer teens. I know teenagers are a pain in the ass but they're also AMAZING humans, and if the hundred or so I've spent time with over the last few years in a support group are anything to go by, I have so much hope for what boys can learn to be. And they learn to be those things with the help of grown folks who care about being better people.
posted by libraritarian at 9:19 AM on March 5, 2019 [16 favorites]
I don't think this dad is overthinking it. As a pathological overthinker, I promise I've overthought it harder. What he's actually trying to do, or should be trying to do, is to learn what it is to embody masculinity without being a douche. It's hard. Because how can his son, if even he can't? He's looking back on the lessons he's learned and the people (mostly female people) he's hurt. And how can you protect your own child from learning those lessons?
My son is only 8, but I also work extensively with queer teens. I know teenagers are a pain in the ass but they're also AMAZING humans, and if the hundred or so I've spent time with over the last few years in a support group are anything to go by, I have so much hope for what boys can learn to be. And they learn to be those things with the help of grown folks who care about being better people.
posted by libraritarian at 9:19 AM on March 5, 2019 [16 favorites]
A few years ago, I had several lady friends who all crowed about how happy they were when they found out they were having boys. These were progressive, cool ladies, at least one of whom I met at women's college. Their whole, oh thank god, I'm having a boy. Boys are so much easier and so much nicer and God, teenage girls are THE WORST and now I don't have to worry about vicariously transmitting my of my weird body image issues onto my children because boys are cool and smart and they totally don't have any problems really bummed me out so much that I kind of had to stop hanging out with them for a while.
It's so frustrating when people who you expect would do better suddenly trot out the gender essentialist poison.
A number of years ago I was volunteering with a children's program run by a progressive LGBT+ friendly social justice oriented organization. At a leadership & volunteer meeting to discuss future curriculum plans everyone at the table besides me started talking and agreeing with each other about how Boys Learn Like This and Enjoy These Types of Things and Girls Learn Like That and Enjoy Those Types of Things. We were literally sitting below a copy of the For Every Girl/For Every Boy poster and I just could not believe what I was hearing.
Text of Poster:
posted by Secret Sparrow at 9:21 AM on March 5, 2019 [19 favorites]
It's so frustrating when people who you expect would do better suddenly trot out the gender essentialist poison.
A number of years ago I was volunteering with a children's program run by a progressive LGBT+ friendly social justice oriented organization. At a leadership & volunteer meeting to discuss future curriculum plans everyone at the table besides me started talking and agreeing with each other about how Boys Learn Like This and Enjoy These Types of Things and Girls Learn Like That and Enjoy Those Types of Things. We were literally sitting below a copy of the For Every Girl/For Every Boy poster and I just could not believe what I was hearing.
Text of Poster:
For every girl who is tired of acting weak when she is strong,I was the only person at the meeting who was not either a parent or a paid professional who worked with children, and as a relatively new volunteer I didn't have the courage to call them to account for the things they were saying. I just found myself looking from their faces to the poster and back again and wondering what the hell was going on.
there is a boy tired of appearing strong when he feels vulnerable.
For every boy who is burdened with the constant expectation of knowing everything,
there is a girl tired of people not trusting her intelligence.
For every girl who is tired of being called over-sensitive,
there is a boy who fears to be gentle, to weep.
For every boy for whom competition is the only way to prove his masculinity,
there is a girl who is called unfeminine when she competes.
For every girl who throws out her E-Z-Bake Oven,
there is a boy who wishes to find one.
For every boy struggling not to let advertising dictate his desires,
there is a girl facing the ad industry's attacks on her self-esteem.
For every girl who takes a step towards her liberation,
there is a boy find the way to freedom a little easier.
posted by Secret Sparrow at 9:21 AM on March 5, 2019 [19 favorites]
Yes, you told a joke, SPrintF
It was a joke with a point, though. Parents learn to work around their kids' objections, perhaps resorting, as my parents did, to "because I said so that's why!" I wonder if some boys learn to manipulate "no means no" because their parents have done that with them. They have to learn that sense of destructive entitlement from someone. But parents can't always reason with their kids, modeling authority, so it's a real puzzle about how to teach kids the limits of their own power over others.
posted by SPrintF at 9:31 AM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
It was a joke with a point, though. Parents learn to work around their kids' objections, perhaps resorting, as my parents did, to "because I said so that's why!" I wonder if some boys learn to manipulate "no means no" because their parents have done that with them. They have to learn that sense of destructive entitlement from someone. But parents can't always reason with their kids, modeling authority, so it's a real puzzle about how to teach kids the limits of their own power over others.
posted by SPrintF at 9:31 AM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
I wonder if some boys learn to manipulate "no means no" because their parents have done that with them.
This is exactly why overthinking and overdoing is such a great idea. I paraphrased and summarized in my comment for the sake of length, but in reality, here is what making "no means no" a mantra actually sounds like in my house:
"Kid! Your friend said stop! What does that mean?"
------------------"BUT I'M JUST...."
"Wait. Your friend said stop. What does that mean?"
------------------ "... Stop?"
"That's right. What do you do?"
------------------ "Stop tickling?"
"That's right. And why is that?"
------------------ "Because he said stop?"
"Yes, because that's HIS body so you listen to HIM about it."
------------------ "But HE tickled me before...."
"And that's not okay either. Why?"
------------------ "Because it's my body?"
"That's right. And you need to stop because....?"
------------------ "That's his body?"
"Yep, high five, etc."
It's not just about repeating "stop means stop." You explain and contextualize this shit every single time.
You also talk about rules and parenting and kids obedience in other contexts at other times! "No means no" is not literally the only thing that's ever said to them. We often talk about what our roles are, e.g. "I'm a mommy and what is a mommy's job? ... That's right, it's to keep you safe and healthy. So I get to make rules about ______ because that keeps you safe and healthy."
So when they say NO to bedtime, you can be like "What does the clock say?" or "Do you want to read TWO stories today?" or even "I'mma count to three!" - and if they respond with, "I said no, and no means no," I can reasonably and intelligibly say something like, "I'm not going to pick you up and put you in bed, because I respect your body, and your body belongs to you. But mommy needs to do her job. Bedtime keeps you safe and healthy, so it's a rule, off we go!"
There isn't manipulation and trickery (I was joking about that before). There is only exhaustive and repeated conversations and a truly stupendous amount of energy and patience expended.
posted by MiraK at 9:48 AM on March 5, 2019 [24 favorites]
This is exactly why overthinking and overdoing is such a great idea. I paraphrased and summarized in my comment for the sake of length, but in reality, here is what making "no means no" a mantra actually sounds like in my house:
"Kid! Your friend said stop! What does that mean?"
------------------"BUT I'M JUST...."
"Wait. Your friend said stop. What does that mean?"
------------------ "... Stop?"
"That's right. What do you do?"
------------------ "Stop tickling?"
"That's right. And why is that?"
------------------ "Because he said stop?"
"Yes, because that's HIS body so you listen to HIM about it."
------------------ "But HE tickled me before...."
"And that's not okay either. Why?"
------------------ "Because it's my body?"
"That's right. And you need to stop because....?"
------------------ "That's his body?"
"Yep, high five, etc."
It's not just about repeating "stop means stop." You explain and contextualize this shit every single time.
You also talk about rules and parenting and kids obedience in other contexts at other times! "No means no" is not literally the only thing that's ever said to them. We often talk about what our roles are, e.g. "I'm a mommy and what is a mommy's job? ... That's right, it's to keep you safe and healthy. So I get to make rules about ______ because that keeps you safe and healthy."
So when they say NO to bedtime, you can be like "What does the clock say?" or "Do you want to read TWO stories today?" or even "I'mma count to three!" - and if they respond with, "I said no, and no means no," I can reasonably and intelligibly say something like, "I'm not going to pick you up and put you in bed, because I respect your body, and your body belongs to you. But mommy needs to do her job. Bedtime keeps you safe and healthy, so it's a rule, off we go!"
There isn't manipulation and trickery (I was joking about that before). There is only exhaustive and repeated conversations and a truly stupendous amount of energy and patience expended.
posted by MiraK at 9:48 AM on March 5, 2019 [24 favorites]
Youtube is no greater evil in this world than the bible imo, so long as we're talking about what's in it and how it can be used.
I've never met a kid who will voluntarily read the bible for sixteen hours a day.
posted by skewed at 9:49 AM on March 5, 2019 [11 favorites]
I've never met a kid who will voluntarily read the bible for sixteen hours a day.
posted by skewed at 9:49 AM on March 5, 2019 [11 favorites]
What he's actually trying to do, or should be trying to do, is to learn what it is to embody masculinity without being a douche.
This is a great big conversation, and one I am not really smart enough to have yet, but I don't think anyone can or should embody masculinity. I am not sure what sort of thing masculinity is, but I don't think any one person has it. The problem is, I think, more of this shape:
How do I hand down this fortitude without the brutality that came with it?
How do I hand down this work ethic without handing down needing other people to help me rest?
How do I hand down this sense of responsibility without handing down the accompanying bossiness?
. . . and so on. There are no gender-specific virtues or vices, and we all have to figure how to hand down the former without the latter. We will mostly fail, but we are obliged to try.
posted by ckridge at 9:51 AM on March 5, 2019 [11 favorites]
This is a great big conversation, and one I am not really smart enough to have yet, but I don't think anyone can or should embody masculinity. I am not sure what sort of thing masculinity is, but I don't think any one person has it. The problem is, I think, more of this shape:
How do I hand down this fortitude without the brutality that came with it?
How do I hand down this work ethic without handing down needing other people to help me rest?
How do I hand down this sense of responsibility without handing down the accompanying bossiness?
. . . and so on. There are no gender-specific virtues or vices, and we all have to figure how to hand down the former without the latter. We will mostly fail, but we are obliged to try.
posted by ckridge at 9:51 AM on March 5, 2019 [11 favorites]
Americans Might No Longer Prefer Sons Over Daughters
"It should be celebrated that parents want to raise confident young women,” said Michael Thompson, a psychologist who studies the development of boys. “But there is now a subtle fear of boys and the trouble they might bring. Parents think: ‘My son might have A.D.H.D., might not fit in as well in school, there might not be jobs for him. Life is going to be a little tougher for him as a boy.’ ”
I wonder, based on some of the responses in this thread, if there's something deeper going on there than the above article realizes.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:58 AM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
"It should be celebrated that parents want to raise confident young women,” said Michael Thompson, a psychologist who studies the development of boys. “But there is now a subtle fear of boys and the trouble they might bring. Parents think: ‘My son might have A.D.H.D., might not fit in as well in school, there might not be jobs for him. Life is going to be a little tougher for him as a boy.’ ”
I wonder, based on some of the responses in this thread, if there's something deeper going on there than the above article realizes.
posted by leotrotsky at 9:58 AM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
But parents aren't the only ones children learn from. There are lots of other sources of ideology in our world. It's hard to know if you're doing enough to anticipate and counter the messages your kid is going to receive out there.
years ago, I came across some info (I can't recall the source) which suggested that families did indeed have a huge effect on their children's worldviews ... but only until around age ten. At age ten, peers started to have an equal or greater effect (and things like teachers and coaches, the community in general, and just following their own noses). So the conclusion was that the time for the family to affect character is when children are still quite young, the goal being to imbue values etc that will be up to the persuasions and temptations of the rest of the world. Which does dovetail with the old Jesuit line:
Give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man.
posted by philip-random at 10:00 AM on March 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
years ago, I came across some info (I can't recall the source) which suggested that families did indeed have a huge effect on their children's worldviews ... but only until around age ten. At age ten, peers started to have an equal or greater effect (and things like teachers and coaches, the community in general, and just following their own noses). So the conclusion was that the time for the family to affect character is when children are still quite young, the goal being to imbue values etc that will be up to the persuasions and temptations of the rest of the world. Which does dovetail with the old Jesuit line:
Give me the child for the first seven years and I will give you the man.
posted by philip-random at 10:00 AM on March 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
how happy she is having a boy because girls are just so dramatic and neurotic.
There is so much to hate about this sentence, ugh.
Also, while I would not call any kid neurotic, I would say drama i inherent to kid-dom and that boys are perfectly capable of it, and if you disagree, come witness a few of our discussions when the kiddo and I are both Having a Bad Day and just not able to cope with things and doors get slammed and voices get raised.
My kiddo in particular excels at the teenage thing where they remind you of some Terrible Parenting Decision you made 10 years ago that has Scarred Them for Life and getting really really upset if you don't agree that you are The Worst. Usually it was something like "You didn't believe me that time I said I was sick and then I threw up," or some other parenting fail that now means they can never trust or love again.
I do a lot of deep breathing.
posted by emjaybee at 10:11 AM on March 5, 2019 [7 favorites]
There is so much to hate about this sentence, ugh.
Also, while I would not call any kid neurotic, I would say drama i inherent to kid-dom and that boys are perfectly capable of it, and if you disagree, come witness a few of our discussions when the kiddo and I are both Having a Bad Day and just not able to cope with things and doors get slammed and voices get raised.
My kiddo in particular excels at the teenage thing where they remind you of some Terrible Parenting Decision you made 10 years ago that has Scarred Them for Life and getting really really upset if you don't agree that you are The Worst. Usually it was something like "You didn't believe me that time I said I was sick and then I threw up," or some other parenting fail that now means they can never trust or love again.
I do a lot of deep breathing.
posted by emjaybee at 10:11 AM on March 5, 2019 [7 favorites]
I’m a lot more sympathetic to the author’s concerns than many of you. A big reason for that is seeing several men I love and trust go from being stable, trustworthy good men, strong allies to the women in their lives, to hateful misogynists. All of these transformations have taken place in the last two to three years, and all happened very quickly. One male family member, a person I used to idolize, is now talking about how we should shame women who have sex before marriage and that doing this will cut down on mass shootings.
It’s incredibly sad, and scary, as a parent of two boys.
posted by scantee at 10:25 AM on March 5, 2019 [21 favorites]
It’s incredibly sad, and scary, as a parent of two boys.
posted by scantee at 10:25 AM on March 5, 2019 [21 favorites]
^^ That is extremely perplexing, scantee. Obviously they're men in your life and you know them best, but in all the cases of sudden change that I've had described to me, there was not in fact a sudden change, and the misperception only existed because the bar for "good men" and "strong ally to women" is soooo fucking low for men that most men can fake it forever without showing their true colors. We are all of us too ready to go to battle crying, "Not MY Nigel!"
posted by MiraK at 10:29 AM on March 5, 2019 [9 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 10:29 AM on March 5, 2019 [9 favorites]
I've never met a kid who will voluntarily read the bible for sixteen hours a day.
they're out there, and when they grow up they vote, or protest women's health clinics, or shame women who have premarital sex, or shoot up schools , just as we imagine kids who watch youtube do, and their parents condone or even encourage it.
Prohibition (of youtube, or weed, or whatever) hasn't really proven to be a very effective way of parenting, has it? Moderation has multiple meanings, and can be a useful tool as well as a good philosophy.
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:35 AM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
they're out there, and when they grow up they vote, or protest women's health clinics, or shame women who have premarital sex, or shoot up schools , just as we imagine kids who watch youtube do, and their parents condone or even encourage it.
Prohibition (of youtube, or weed, or whatever) hasn't really proven to be a very effective way of parenting, has it? Moderation has multiple meanings, and can be a useful tool as well as a good philosophy.
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:35 AM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
I was just thinking the other day about how Achewood taught me a lot about the experience of American masculinity, for better and worse.
Which is ironic considering how the creator ended up becoming the exact sort of toxic male this article describes.
posted by Young Kullervo at 10:37 AM on March 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
Which is ironic considering how the creator ended up becoming the exact sort of toxic male this article describes.
posted by Young Kullervo at 10:37 AM on March 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
Ninety percent of the effect you will have on your child's behavior will be genetic.
Not to start a "nature vs. nurture" fork here, but this seems...arbitrary?
I come at this from the perspective of being a dad of a 17 year old boy and as someone who's thought a *lot* over the years about how the effects of adult actions influence kids (some of that thinking was done somewhat notoriously here on Mefi.)
I feel as if there are certain universal strategies for child-rearing that rely on self awareness. For example, as soon as my son had a level of critical thinking, we made a game of analyzing commercials on TV to understand what the advertisers were trying to make you buy and how they were doing it. As it turns out, sometimes this is super-obvious, other times not so much. This "critically active" framework, I guess you'd call it, is super-dependent on my own take on our modern capitalistic system.
I'd like to think that this framework would have been the same whether I had a son or daughter: the goal was to promote healthy skepticism of authority. Quickly, however, one realizes that the path to this skepticism diverges the older they get and as gender roles become more pronounced. Helping boys in the US have "critically active" thinking on gender issues and confronting the existence of male privilege really requires a team effort on the part of the parents. It's easier said than done, because it assumes there is a healthy dialog between partners to begin with, which is also a major assumption.
posted by jeremias at 10:41 AM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
Not to start a "nature vs. nurture" fork here, but this seems...arbitrary?
I come at this from the perspective of being a dad of a 17 year old boy and as someone who's thought a *lot* over the years about how the effects of adult actions influence kids (some of that thinking was done somewhat notoriously here on Mefi.)
I feel as if there are certain universal strategies for child-rearing that rely on self awareness. For example, as soon as my son had a level of critical thinking, we made a game of analyzing commercials on TV to understand what the advertisers were trying to make you buy and how they were doing it. As it turns out, sometimes this is super-obvious, other times not so much. This "critically active" framework, I guess you'd call it, is super-dependent on my own take on our modern capitalistic system.
I'd like to think that this framework would have been the same whether I had a son or daughter: the goal was to promote healthy skepticism of authority. Quickly, however, one realizes that the path to this skepticism diverges the older they get and as gender roles become more pronounced. Helping boys in the US have "critically active" thinking on gender issues and confronting the existence of male privilege really requires a team effort on the part of the parents. It's easier said than done, because it assumes there is a healthy dialog between partners to begin with, which is also a major assumption.
posted by jeremias at 10:41 AM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
have fun squaring that circle bye
That's easy. Just be a complete asshole to and around your children and it'll be certain they'll be the complete opposite of that!
posted by FJT at 11:08 AM on March 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
That's easy. Just be a complete asshole to and around your children and it'll be certain they'll be the complete opposite of that!
posted by FJT at 11:08 AM on March 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
that is simultaneously the worst possible parenting advice and also not even wrong a lot of the time
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:12 AM on March 5, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by prize bull octorok at 11:12 AM on March 5, 2019 [10 favorites]
Which is ironic considering how the creator ended up becoming the exact sort of toxic male this article describes.
Is this referring to something specific? I had Onstad pegged as "probably kind of an asshole in reality" a long time ago, but I wasn't aware that he'd become more (or less) of an asshole. I mean has he started retweeting Quillette or something?
posted by atoxyl at 11:22 AM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
Is this referring to something specific? I had Onstad pegged as "probably kind of an asshole in reality" a long time ago, but I wasn't aware that he'd become more (or less) of an asshole. I mean has he started retweeting Quillette or something?
posted by atoxyl at 11:22 AM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
My 11yo was with eating dinner with a friend at our house and the friend says 'I wish there where something like YouTube but not as toxic'.
The kids are more aware than you think they are.
posted by signal at 11:28 AM on March 5, 2019 [11 favorites]
The kids are more aware than you think they are.
posted by signal at 11:28 AM on March 5, 2019 [11 favorites]
Ninety percent of the effect you will have on your child's behavior will be genetic
I overheard a conversation a while back -- a mother of two grown sons talking to an old friend. The mother basically said nature trumps nurture every time, because while both her kids got similar TLC, education options and the rest, they couldn't have grown up more different. One being an artist type, the other being a finance type.
"But they're both kind, decent people," said the friend
posted by philip-random at 11:47 AM on March 5, 2019 [4 favorites]
I overheard a conversation a while back -- a mother of two grown sons talking to an old friend. The mother basically said nature trumps nurture every time, because while both her kids got similar TLC, education options and the rest, they couldn't have grown up more different. One being an artist type, the other being a finance type.
"But they're both kind, decent people," said the friend
posted by philip-random at 11:47 AM on March 5, 2019 [4 favorites]
Teach and demonstrate good behavior and your children will follow suit.
Ok. Have you met my daughter? Actual rocket scientist. I mostly stood back & got out of her way. My son, raised in the same house by the same people, is a 19 y.o. resentful, angry, emotionally stifled, underachieving video game addict who was resistant to all importunings, gentle, or otherwise. It's not always that simple. We've been pretty damn good parents, and we're contemplating kicking him out of the house because we can't stand him shouting at his computer any more. At least he has a part-time job & isn't a drug addict, but man, it's been rough since puberty.
I considered sending him this article, but he'd take it as an act of hostility.
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:13 PM on March 5, 2019 [13 favorites]
Ok. Have you met my daughter? Actual rocket scientist. I mostly stood back & got out of her way. My son, raised in the same house by the same people, is a 19 y.o. resentful, angry, emotionally stifled, underachieving video game addict who was resistant to all importunings, gentle, or otherwise. It's not always that simple. We've been pretty damn good parents, and we're contemplating kicking him out of the house because we can't stand him shouting at his computer any more. At least he has a part-time job & isn't a drug addict, but man, it's been rough since puberty.
I considered sending him this article, but he'd take it as an act of hostility.
posted by Devils Rancher at 12:13 PM on March 5, 2019 [13 favorites]
I think the hardest thing about being a parent is knowing that you can do your best, but whether your child turns out great or a monster is largely a matter of luck.
posted by SPrintF at 1:09 PM on March 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 1:09 PM on March 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
I'm a little concerned that this narrative is a bit self-fulfilling. Can we stop trashing men in general and trash toxic behavior? I think there are probably a lot more good men out there than you would generally assume, given societal discourse the last two years.
My son, who is 10, walked to the store with his friend the other day, to buy some candy. When he was there he forgot to pay for a piece of candy and left with his buddy. As he tells me this, I am thinking just ahead "of he is going to say he shoplifted by accident" but as soon as the thought forms, he says, "I went back and paid for it and the shopkeeper gave me these snap-pops for free!"
He's a GOOD kid. Maybe puberty will ruin him, but maybe it might also be a society that doesn't value him, or that tells him he's a bad person. God knows I get this enough myself as an over 50 year old white guy (in the tech industry, no less).
posted by BigBrooklyn at 1:45 PM on March 5, 2019 [6 favorites]
My son, who is 10, walked to the store with his friend the other day, to buy some candy. When he was there he forgot to pay for a piece of candy and left with his buddy. As he tells me this, I am thinking just ahead "of he is going to say he shoplifted by accident" but as soon as the thought forms, he says, "I went back and paid for it and the shopkeeper gave me these snap-pops for free!"
He's a GOOD kid. Maybe puberty will ruin him, but maybe it might also be a society that doesn't value him, or that tells him he's a bad person. God knows I get this enough myself as an over 50 year old white guy (in the tech industry, no less).
posted by BigBrooklyn at 1:45 PM on March 5, 2019 [6 favorites]
Not to start a "nature vs. nurture" fork here, but this seems...arbitrary?
I am going by twin and adoption studies, most notably the Colorado Adoption Study (CAP). It is not that heredity has a whole hell of a lot to do with how people think. It has something to do with it, but not all that much. It is just that parenting has even less to do with it, because parents just aren't all that much of a well-brought-up child's environment. Part of being even an adequate parent is letting your child out to meet other people, and thereby reducing your parental influence. The CAP found almost no correlation between the cognitive abilities of adopted children and their parents, and substantial, increasing correlation between that of biological children and their parents. Environment counts, but the whole environment, of which parents are only part.
"The CAP is a multifaceted study. The uses of its data extend from parent–offspring analyses of IQ to investigations of adoption outcomes in adolescence. An example of the parent–offspring data analyses is the longitudinal investigation of Plomin et al. (1997). They estimated the changing contributions of genetic and environmental factors to general and specific cognitive abilities from childhood through late adolescence and found that for adoptive parents and their adopted child, correlations remained close to zero at all time points, whereas the correlation between both biological parents and their adopted away offspring and control parents rearing biological offspring increased from this span from about 0.1 at age 3 to nearly 0.4 at age 16."
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/twin-research-and-human-genetics/article/colorado-adoption-project/E03A165DC666060646D7D8DA3E4DFCFA
Temperament may be more amenable to environmental influence than cognitive abilities, of course, or behaving well may be independent of temperament. I think not, but reasonable people may differ. Either way, we have to do what we can.
posted by ckridge at 1:54 PM on March 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
I am going by twin and adoption studies, most notably the Colorado Adoption Study (CAP). It is not that heredity has a whole hell of a lot to do with how people think. It has something to do with it, but not all that much. It is just that parenting has even less to do with it, because parents just aren't all that much of a well-brought-up child's environment. Part of being even an adequate parent is letting your child out to meet other people, and thereby reducing your parental influence. The CAP found almost no correlation between the cognitive abilities of adopted children and their parents, and substantial, increasing correlation between that of biological children and their parents. Environment counts, but the whole environment, of which parents are only part.
"The CAP is a multifaceted study. The uses of its data extend from parent–offspring analyses of IQ to investigations of adoption outcomes in adolescence. An example of the parent–offspring data analyses is the longitudinal investigation of Plomin et al. (1997). They estimated the changing contributions of genetic and environmental factors to general and specific cognitive abilities from childhood through late adolescence and found that for adoptive parents and their adopted child, correlations remained close to zero at all time points, whereas the correlation between both biological parents and their adopted away offspring and control parents rearing biological offspring increased from this span from about 0.1 at age 3 to nearly 0.4 at age 16."
https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/twin-research-and-human-genetics/article/colorado-adoption-project/E03A165DC666060646D7D8DA3E4DFCFA
Temperament may be more amenable to environmental influence than cognitive abilities, of course, or behaving well may be independent of temperament. I think not, but reasonable people may differ. Either way, we have to do what we can.
posted by ckridge at 1:54 PM on March 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
My son, raised in the same house by the same people . . .
Oldest of five children reporting in here. No two of us were raised by the same people. Each subsequent child was raised by parents who had been changed by age and by the previous children, and each of us was raised in part by the other children, who in turn were changed by raising each other.
The way it worked around our place is that it became progressively harder for the younger kids to find a way to be good, because they couldn't compete with older kids already being good is some particular way. This can't possibly be the rule, because there are families with several children who are good in the same way, but it can go that way.
posted by ckridge at 2:05 PM on March 5, 2019 [12 favorites]
Oldest of five children reporting in here. No two of us were raised by the same people. Each subsequent child was raised by parents who had been changed by age and by the previous children, and each of us was raised in part by the other children, who in turn were changed by raising each other.
The way it worked around our place is that it became progressively harder for the younger kids to find a way to be good, because they couldn't compete with older kids already being good is some particular way. This can't possibly be the rule, because there are families with several children who are good in the same way, but it can go that way.
posted by ckridge at 2:05 PM on March 5, 2019 [12 favorites]
Each subsequent child was raised by parents who had been changed by age and by the previous children (...)
You have a point here. My 2 kids are only 5 years apart, but what seemed like would work for the first one as far as parenting techniques just did not work for the second. Lots of positive reinforcement, gentle encouragement, "you can do it, I believe in you, how can I help?" always being the message when things got rough for the both of them. By high school, the daughter was crying because her homework wasn't perfect & my son was throwing it across the room because he had to do it at all.
He's a really a very nice, empathetic, caring person a lot of the time, he's got a sweet girlfriend & he treats her like royalty, but if anything gets between him & his games, there's hell to pay. We took them away for weeks at a stretch & he just slept & refused to do his schoolwork, & quietly hated our guts. We spent over 2 years together in therapy, & by the time he was 15, we were speaking normally again.
I'm not saying it's because he's a boy -- he's just stubborn & unmotivated person. His brain is just different from his sister's & all the stuff that worked spectacularly with her ("Yes, I'll drive you to school an hour early so you can meet with your calc teacher, I'm looking at the college application tonight - did you eat??") just fell flat with him.
"Just be a good parent" is reductionist. Sometimes, you simply cannot figure out how to be a good parent, no matter your intentions. I have certainly done a 100% job of setting an example as to how a man should behave. I hope that when he grows old enough to gain some perspective, some of that will remain with him.
posted by Devils Rancher at 2:27 PM on March 5, 2019 [4 favorites]
You have a point here. My 2 kids are only 5 years apart, but what seemed like would work for the first one as far as parenting techniques just did not work for the second. Lots of positive reinforcement, gentle encouragement, "you can do it, I believe in you, how can I help?" always being the message when things got rough for the both of them. By high school, the daughter was crying because her homework wasn't perfect & my son was throwing it across the room because he had to do it at all.
He's a really a very nice, empathetic, caring person a lot of the time, he's got a sweet girlfriend & he treats her like royalty, but if anything gets between him & his games, there's hell to pay. We took them away for weeks at a stretch & he just slept & refused to do his schoolwork, & quietly hated our guts. We spent over 2 years together in therapy, & by the time he was 15, we were speaking normally again.
I'm not saying it's because he's a boy -- he's just stubborn & unmotivated person. His brain is just different from his sister's & all the stuff that worked spectacularly with her ("Yes, I'll drive you to school an hour early so you can meet with your calc teacher, I'm looking at the college application tonight - did you eat??") just fell flat with him.
"Just be a good parent" is reductionist. Sometimes, you simply cannot figure out how to be a good parent, no matter your intentions. I have certainly done a 100% job of setting an example as to how a man should behave. I hope that when he grows old enough to gain some perspective, some of that will remain with him.
posted by Devils Rancher at 2:27 PM on March 5, 2019 [4 favorites]
Maybe puberty will ruin him
I see a lot of parents basically check out of active parenting around this time and it's like no, puberty didn't ruin your kid, you just got tired of how much fucking work it is raising a kid and decided you'd done enough back when they were toddlers and you've earned yourself a break now. I get it, adolescence is hugely challenging and teenagers can be very mean, but it's kind of horrifying when your peers in parenting tell you with a smile on their face how they've justified abdicating responsibility a few years early.
Invariably, they will tell you they "did all they could for them" when their kid spirals out.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:50 PM on March 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
I see a lot of parents basically check out of active parenting around this time and it's like no, puberty didn't ruin your kid, you just got tired of how much fucking work it is raising a kid and decided you'd done enough back when they were toddlers and you've earned yourself a break now. I get it, adolescence is hugely challenging and teenagers can be very mean, but it's kind of horrifying when your peers in parenting tell you with a smile on their face how they've justified abdicating responsibility a few years early.
Invariably, they will tell you they "did all they could for them" when their kid spirals out.
posted by prize bull octorok at 2:50 PM on March 5, 2019 [5 favorites]
a father who re-evaluates his own assumptions, admits his own errors, misconceptions, and mistakes, and makes apologies and amends with a light heart is a great gift to and model for a boy. in the same vein, I'm not sure anyone who believes they're a spotless role model for how a boy should be is ever a good one.
parents who argue that they must have been good parents because they themselves think so, without regard to what their children think, are no worse for boys than for girls. but I don't think they're good for either.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:49 PM on March 5, 2019 [7 favorites]
parents who argue that they must have been good parents because they themselves think so, without regard to what their children think, are no worse for boys than for girls. but I don't think they're good for either.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:49 PM on March 5, 2019 [7 favorites]
>> Teach and demonstrate good behavior and your children will follow suit.
>
> My son, raised in the same house by the same people, is a 19 y.o.
> resentful, angry, emotionally stifled, underachieving video game addict
My comment was a response to the proposition that young men are born ripe to dragged into a life of misogyny by the world, and my statement was a dismissal of that. I wasn't trying to suggest a cure all for perfect parenting. I wouldn't even know how to start.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:32 PM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
>
> My son, raised in the same house by the same people, is a 19 y.o.
> resentful, angry, emotionally stifled, underachieving video game addict
My comment was a response to the proposition that young men are born ripe to dragged into a life of misogyny by the world, and my statement was a dismissal of that. I wasn't trying to suggest a cure all for perfect parenting. I wouldn't even know how to start.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:32 PM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
An aspect which I've been thinking about a lot recently, as I get closer to having my own kids, is that the world not only allows men to be bad in so many ways but indeed requires it.
For example: there's a certain level of violence required of young boys. The teachers will break things up at some point, e.g., if they see someone going for the eyes or using a tool or biting. But you can do plenty within the rules. Shoving people around is definitely in bounds. Knocking them down is probably fine as long as you don't kick them or anything while they're down. You can probably even bounce them off a wall, as long as you don't hit their heads against the brick.
I once tackled someone from behind as he was walking away, and brought him down hard enough to bloody his nose on the ground. This happened right in front of a teacher. I can't remember what she said any more, probably not something so explicitly approving, but I remember the way she said it. The tone was definitely one of, "You're learning to stand up for yourself! Good for you!"
I need to teach my son to de-escalate confrontations, and to give people second chances and the benefit of the doubt.
Also, I need to teach him that if someone is yelling at him and steps abruptly closer, he should start a long, slow inhalation because that sometimes masks startlement, and he must definitely not step back. I need to teach him that if someone shoves him, he needs to lean forward as soon as the guy's hands come up, so that he's ready to step in to meet the shove. He needs to make those entirely unnatural and, in the latter case, frankly aggressive responses his unthinking reflexes.
So, yeah, I don't know. In fact, here I am, awake at two in the morning because I just can't stop thinking about my utter lack of anything approaching a good answer.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 10:59 PM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
For example: there's a certain level of violence required of young boys. The teachers will break things up at some point, e.g., if they see someone going for the eyes or using a tool or biting. But you can do plenty within the rules. Shoving people around is definitely in bounds. Knocking them down is probably fine as long as you don't kick them or anything while they're down. You can probably even bounce them off a wall, as long as you don't hit their heads against the brick.
I once tackled someone from behind as he was walking away, and brought him down hard enough to bloody his nose on the ground. This happened right in front of a teacher. I can't remember what she said any more, probably not something so explicitly approving, but I remember the way she said it. The tone was definitely one of, "You're learning to stand up for yourself! Good for you!"
I need to teach my son to de-escalate confrontations, and to give people second chances and the benefit of the doubt.
Also, I need to teach him that if someone is yelling at him and steps abruptly closer, he should start a long, slow inhalation because that sometimes masks startlement, and he must definitely not step back. I need to teach him that if someone shoves him, he needs to lean forward as soon as the guy's hands come up, so that he's ready to step in to meet the shove. He needs to make those entirely unnatural and, in the latter case, frankly aggressive responses his unthinking reflexes.
So, yeah, I don't know. In fact, here I am, awake at two in the morning because I just can't stop thinking about my utter lack of anything approaching a good answer.
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 10:59 PM on March 5, 2019 [2 favorites]
(I don't mean to fixate on physical violence. It was just the example I felt best able to write about, concretely and clearly and uncontroversially. I'm not really prepared to talk about the emotional thing, which in itself is probably a thing, or at least an epi-thing. I would welcome contributions from someone who can.)
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 11:09 PM on March 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by meaty shoe puppet at 11:09 PM on March 5, 2019 [1 favorite]
The CAP found almost no correlation between the cognitive abilities of adopted children and their parents,
Yeah well we aren't talking about cognitive abilities here, are we? A lot of "bad behavior" stems from insecure attachment, insufficient moral guidance, inadequate role models, and low expectations. All of these are quite strongly affected by primary caregivers, biological or otherwise.
posted by MiraK at 12:25 AM on March 6, 2019 [8 favorites]
Yeah well we aren't talking about cognitive abilities here, are we? A lot of "bad behavior" stems from insecure attachment, insufficient moral guidance, inadequate role models, and low expectations. All of these are quite strongly affected by primary caregivers, biological or otherwise.
posted by MiraK at 12:25 AM on March 6, 2019 [8 favorites]
I am sympathetic with the author to a certain extent, because I remember the amount of thinking that went into parenting BEFORE having children. What a lot of expectant parents don't realize is that (in my experience and the experience of other parents I've spoken to) 95% of parenting is improvisation and the other 5% is trying desperately not to do the horrible shit that your parents did to you.
I respect the thought that we can and should try to be aware of avoiding the traps of toxic masculinity when raising our own sons. I certainly have tried to do so with my own son, who will be 16 next month. But there's no road map or instruction manual, and most of it has been guesswork. I have been extremely lucky that my son is kind, thoughtful, hard-working, and effusive (if occasionally a drama queen), and I don't feel that I can really take credit for him being that way. I honestly don't know how we would have handled it he'd been cruel, or physically aggressive, or determined to play Fortnite, or whatever, and I can't criticize others who have approached parenting differently than I have (assuming they're not physically or psychologically abusive). It's hard work.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 9:15 AM on March 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
I respect the thought that we can and should try to be aware of avoiding the traps of toxic masculinity when raising our own sons. I certainly have tried to do so with my own son, who will be 16 next month. But there's no road map or instruction manual, and most of it has been guesswork. I have been extremely lucky that my son is kind, thoughtful, hard-working, and effusive (if occasionally a drama queen), and I don't feel that I can really take credit for him being that way. I honestly don't know how we would have handled it he'd been cruel, or physically aggressive, or determined to play Fortnite, or whatever, and I can't criticize others who have approached parenting differently than I have (assuming they're not physically or psychologically abusive). It's hard work.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 9:15 AM on March 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
Also, yes on Steven Universe. Thank the gods for Rebecca Sugar.
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 9:15 AM on March 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by Ben Trismegistus at 9:15 AM on March 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
For example: there's a certain level of violence required of young boys. The teachers will break things up at some point, e.g., if they see someone going for the eyes or using a tool or biting. But you can do plenty within the rules. Shoving people around is definitely in bounds. Knocking them down is probably fine as long as you don't kick them or anything while they're down. You can probably even bounce them off a wall, as long as you don't hit their heads against the brick.
This was my experience growing up, but watching my nieces and nephews go through the process I can tell you that things have changed A LOT since then. Things that might have gotten a sharp word or a detention now result in suspensions and expulsions.
If I were having a child now I would heavily emphasize de-escalation and the importance of just walking away. Punishment seems to be applied without regard to who the aggressor is.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:23 AM on March 6, 2019 [4 favorites]
This was my experience growing up, but watching my nieces and nephews go through the process I can tell you that things have changed A LOT since then. Things that might have gotten a sharp word or a detention now result in suspensions and expulsions.
If I were having a child now I would heavily emphasize de-escalation and the importance of just walking away. Punishment seems to be applied without regard to who the aggressor is.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:23 AM on March 6, 2019 [4 favorites]
I could say a million things here, I'm not a father, and I come from an extended family with a history of adoption, of which I'm an indirect yet genetically related part, but there's nothing I could say that is more true than this
a father who re-evaluates his own assumptions, admits his own errors, misconceptions, and mistakes, and makes apologies and amends with a light heart is a great gift to and model for a boy.
I could say a lot of things about my father, but I don't talk to him anymore, because he doesn't change. I'm not who I was. He is, and he can't comprehend why I'm not. I strive to be someone who can put down cherished self-conceptions if I find out they're hurting someone.
the ultrasound technician turned to us and said: “I can tell you that this little person is going to be a little male person,”
In China, this would land the ultrasound technician in jail, because if it wasn't a little male person, it might get the little person aborted. I'm all for reproductive freedom. I'm even a little torn on selective abortion for kids with debilitating genetic conditions, because if hunter-gatherers wouldn't carry the extra child across the tundra or something, but that's an abstract debate to me, but, I can't help but wonder how much masculine toxicity foments in the knowing of "it's a boy" months before birth. I know that in China (lived here 15 years, I know), it's sometimes lethal to females, to the point that there are 70 million more men than women in China and India. This leads me to think the answer to how to be a good father to a son starts with how to be a good father to a son or daughter.
Choosing to bring a son to term in this world of excess males, adoptable children, and rampant toxic masculinity? And knowing that's what you're doing? Damn right you better overthink that decision. Best of luck to them. I'm glad I don't have to make that choice.
posted by saysthis at 9:41 AM on March 6, 2019 [3 favorites]
a father who re-evaluates his own assumptions, admits his own errors, misconceptions, and mistakes, and makes apologies and amends with a light heart is a great gift to and model for a boy.
I could say a lot of things about my father, but I don't talk to him anymore, because he doesn't change. I'm not who I was. He is, and he can't comprehend why I'm not. I strive to be someone who can put down cherished self-conceptions if I find out they're hurting someone.
the ultrasound technician turned to us and said: “I can tell you that this little person is going to be a little male person,”
In China, this would land the ultrasound technician in jail, because if it wasn't a little male person, it might get the little person aborted. I'm all for reproductive freedom. I'm even a little torn on selective abortion for kids with debilitating genetic conditions, because if hunter-gatherers wouldn't carry the extra child across the tundra or something, but that's an abstract debate to me, but, I can't help but wonder how much masculine toxicity foments in the knowing of "it's a boy" months before birth. I know that in China (lived here 15 years, I know), it's sometimes lethal to females, to the point that there are 70 million more men than women in China and India. This leads me to think the answer to how to be a good father to a son starts with how to be a good father to a son or daughter.
Choosing to bring a son to term in this world of excess males, adoptable children, and rampant toxic masculinity? And knowing that's what you're doing? Damn right you better overthink that decision. Best of luck to them. I'm glad I don't have to make that choice.
posted by saysthis at 9:41 AM on March 6, 2019 [3 favorites]
I could say a lot of things about my father, but I don't talk to him anymore, because he doesn't change. I'm not who I was. He is, and he can't comprehend why I'm not. I strive to be someone who can put down cherished self-conceptions if I find out they're hurting someone.
Oh man, this is something that's been on my mind a lot this week. Thank you for putting it so eloquently.
Yes, it's extremely important to listen to what people are, not what you think they are.
posted by ambrosen at 10:42 AM on March 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
Oh man, this is something that's been on my mind a lot this week. Thank you for putting it so eloquently.
Yes, it's extremely important to listen to what people are, not what you think they are.
posted by ambrosen at 10:42 AM on March 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
Also, I need to teach him that if someone is yelling at him and steps abruptly closer, he should start a long, slow inhalation because that sometimes masks startlement, and he must definitely not step back. I need to teach him that if someone shoves him, he needs to lean forward as soon as the guy's hands come up, so that he's ready to step in to meet the shove. He needs to make those entirely unnatural and, in the latter case, frankly aggressive responses his unthinking reflexes.
This sort of thing seems so incredibly different by social group. I would swear that my seventeen-year-old hasn't been in a situation where it was important to deal competently? aggressively? with someone threatening physical violence since grade school (and in grade school it wasn't important, of course, but there was some shoving.) Like, the world my kids live in? Opting out of violence is a genuinely available option.
posted by LizardBreath at 10:43 AM on March 6, 2019
This sort of thing seems so incredibly different by social group. I would swear that my seventeen-year-old hasn't been in a situation where it was important to deal competently? aggressively? with someone threatening physical violence since grade school (and in grade school it wasn't important, of course, but there was some shoving.) Like, the world my kids live in? Opting out of violence is a genuinely available option.
posted by LizardBreath at 10:43 AM on March 6, 2019
This sort of thing seems so incredibly different by social group...Like, the world my kids live in? Opting out of violence is a genuinely available option.
From my own experience growing up and traveling, I will say that this is true until it isn't. It's like knowing not to pump ABS brakes vs. to pump manual brakes when you're skidding. You try not to get into situations where you're skidding, but it does happen. I can count the number of situations I've been in where physical violence has been a factor on one hand, and I've never been in a fight, but I can also say that in two of those situations, being able to take a punch and not hit back or lose my cool probably saved my skin. The aggressor made his "point", his friends pulled him off and apologized, in those situations. Drunk ppl amirite? Learning even a little about how to fight (from a competent coach who doesn't glorify violence! this part is key!) teaches you that it's always better not to, not least because it teaches you to control the fighty reflexes. Doing so in an organized setting from a responsible coach in a mixed-gender setting also sets a really good precedent about when and how to use violence (on the mat, at the dojo, never anywhere else, and girls will kick your ass as quick as boys), what degree is acceptable, how to channel emotions, etc.
See also - Shaolin kung fu masters are Buddhist monks. Knowing about violence doesn't mean it's socially acceptable to cause it, and for well-adjusted people, I'd argue that it helps them avoid situations where violence is likely at all.
posted by saysthis at 11:50 AM on March 6, 2019 [3 favorites]
From my own experience growing up and traveling, I will say that this is true until it isn't. It's like knowing not to pump ABS brakes vs. to pump manual brakes when you're skidding. You try not to get into situations where you're skidding, but it does happen. I can count the number of situations I've been in where physical violence has been a factor on one hand, and I've never been in a fight, but I can also say that in two of those situations, being able to take a punch and not hit back or lose my cool probably saved my skin. The aggressor made his "point", his friends pulled him off and apologized, in those situations. Drunk ppl amirite? Learning even a little about how to fight (from a competent coach who doesn't glorify violence! this part is key!) teaches you that it's always better not to, not least because it teaches you to control the fighty reflexes. Doing so in an organized setting from a responsible coach in a mixed-gender setting also sets a really good precedent about when and how to use violence (on the mat, at the dojo, never anywhere else, and girls will kick your ass as quick as boys), what degree is acceptable, how to channel emotions, etc.
See also - Shaolin kung fu masters are Buddhist monks. Knowing about violence doesn't mean it's socially acceptable to cause it, and for well-adjusted people, I'd argue that it helps them avoid situations where violence is likely at all.
posted by saysthis at 11:50 AM on March 6, 2019 [3 favorites]
Yeah well we aren't talking about cognitive abilities here, are we?
Twin studies - for what they're worth, which is another whole question - also suggest a fairly small impact of parenting on personality measures (Big Five being the main one) when genetics are controlled for. I agree that these measures don't always map that easily onto behavior, though.
posted by atoxyl at 1:03 PM on March 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
Twin studies - for what they're worth, which is another whole question - also suggest a fairly small impact of parenting on personality measures (Big Five being the main one) when genetics are controlled for. I agree that these measures don't always map that easily onto behavior, though.
posted by atoxyl at 1:03 PM on March 6, 2019 [2 favorites]
> there's a certain level of violence required of young boys. The teachers will break things up at some point, e.g., if they see someone going for the eyes or using a tool or biting. But you can do plenty within the rules. Shoving people around is definitely in bounds. Knocking them down is probably fine as long as you don't kick them or anything while they're down. You can probably even bounce them off a wall, as long as you don't hit their heads against the brick.
It's definitely not that way any more, at least not in my school district. Any one of those things would get labeled "assault" and the boy would be suspended for at least a day.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:31 PM on March 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
It's definitely not that way any more, at least not in my school district. Any one of those things would get labeled "assault" and the boy would be suspended for at least a day.
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:31 PM on March 6, 2019 [1 favorite]
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Teach and demonstrate good behavior and your children will follow suit. Humans are not hanging over the edge of the abyss and only rescued by fear of punishment.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 7:14 AM on March 5, 2019 [42 favorites]