Glenn Greenwald resigns from The Intercept
October 29, 2020 12:26 PM Subscribe
Glenn Greenwald on Thursday announced that he had resigned from The Intercept—the digital outlet he founded in 2013 with fellow journalists Laura Poitras and Jeremy Scahill, and with funding from First Look Media—claiming “repression, censorship and ideological homogeneity” at the publication. (The Daily Beast no-paywall link. more here.)
Being not altogether up-to-speed on things, I had a neutral-to-favorable impression of Glenn several years ago when I decided to watch that documentary -- "Citizenfour" -- with him in it.
Something about him just skeeved me out so I backed out of the viewing.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 12:30 PM on October 29, 2020 [6 favorites]
Something about him just skeeved me out so I backed out of the viewing.
posted by Heywood Mogroot III at 12:30 PM on October 29, 2020 [6 favorites]
So is he going to Fox or OANN? Or Russia Today?
posted by octothorpe at 12:33 PM on October 29, 2020 [147 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 12:33 PM on October 29, 2020 [147 favorites]
Oh octothorpe, I wish I could favorite that comment 1000x. Thank you.
posted by pjsky at 12:38 PM on October 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by pjsky at 12:38 PM on October 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
EIC Betsy Reed's statement: "The narrative Glenn presents about his departure is teeming with distortions and inaccuracies — all of them designed to make him appear as a victim, rather than a grown person throwing a tantrum."
posted by mcdoublewide at 12:39 PM on October 29, 2020 [33 favorites]
posted by mcdoublewide at 12:39 PM on October 29, 2020 [33 favorites]
> So is he going to Fox or OANN? Or Russia Today?
I think he's actually going to try to set up his own leftier-than-thou InfoWars according to his "goodbye, cruel world" post.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:40 PM on October 29, 2020 [13 favorites]
I think he's actually going to try to set up his own leftier-than-thou InfoWars according to his "goodbye, cruel world" post.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:40 PM on October 29, 2020 [13 favorites]
My bet is RT. We should get a pool going.
posted by aramaic at 12:40 PM on October 29, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 12:40 PM on October 29, 2020 [8 favorites]
If the boy who cried wolf had been right one time, then he'd be Glenn Greenwald. He lost the plot a long, long time ago; I'm not talking about his politics, but the way his writing gradually turned from decent journalism (with a HELL of a scoop) into spittle-flecked ranting on whatever conspiracy he could dream up. Including, one suspects, the one that led to this departure.
Anyway, I'm long past caring. He and Alex Jones can go fight for subscribers.
posted by ZaphodB at 12:47 PM on October 29, 2020 [26 favorites]
Anyway, I'm long past caring. He and Alex Jones can go fight for subscribers.
posted by ZaphodB at 12:47 PM on October 29, 2020 [26 favorites]
He was a genuinely interesting writer for a long time. The Obama years sent him down a weird path, starting with a pretty reasonable "the Obama administration is doing some horrible things y'all should pay attention to" (true enough) that has somehow ended up all these years later in a weird Trump-adjacent territory I find baffling.
It should be possible -- and is possible for other folks on the left -- to hotly criticize mainstream Democratic policies without concluding that the enemy of my enemy is my friend with some pretty vile folks. That he's currently huffing Hunter Biden fumes from Fox News is a good example of this.
posted by feckless at 12:48 PM on October 29, 2020 [52 favorites]
It should be possible -- and is possible for other folks on the left -- to hotly criticize mainstream Democratic policies without concluding that the enemy of my enemy is my friend with some pretty vile folks. That he's currently huffing Hunter Biden fumes from Fox News is a good example of this.
posted by feckless at 12:48 PM on October 29, 2020 [52 favorites]
I had some brief professional interactions with him in his early days of writing for Salon. He seemed very smart but also extraordinarily loquacious, stubborn, pugnacious, and self-righteous. Nothing since then has made me think any differently.
posted by PhineasGage at 12:49 PM on October 29, 2020 [20 favorites]
posted by PhineasGage at 12:49 PM on October 29, 2020 [20 favorites]
When editors choose to write, man.
"In that context, it makes good business sense for Glenn to position himself as the last true guardian of investigative journalism and to smear his longtime colleagues and friends as partisan hacks. We get it. But facts are facts, and The Intercept’s record of fearless, rigorous, independent journalism speaks for itself."
posted by warriorqueen at 12:51 PM on October 29, 2020 [16 favorites]
"In that context, it makes good business sense for Glenn to position himself as the last true guardian of investigative journalism and to smear his longtime colleagues and friends as partisan hacks. We get it. But facts are facts, and The Intercept’s record of fearless, rigorous, independent journalism speaks for itself."
posted by warriorqueen at 12:51 PM on October 29, 2020 [16 favorites]
You have to think Putin must have a secret kennel full of Border Collies somewhere that he's threatening to gas unless Greenwald does exactly what he's told.
posted by jamjam at 12:51 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by jamjam at 12:51 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
My Resignation From The Intercept
The same trends of repression, censorship and ideological homogeneity plaguing the national press generally have engulfed the media outlet I co-founded, culminating in censorship of my own articles.
posted by adamvasco at 12:52 PM on October 29, 2020 [1 favorite]
The same trends of repression, censorship and ideological homogeneity plaguing the national press generally have engulfed the media outlet I co-founded, culminating in censorship of my own articles.
posted by adamvasco at 12:52 PM on October 29, 2020 [1 favorite]
He was a genuinely interesting writer for a long time. The Obama years sent him down a weird path, starting with a pretty reasonable "the Obama administration is doing some horrible things y'all should pay attention to" (true enough) that has somehow ended up all these years later in a weird Trump-adjacent territory I find baffling.
I think a lot of leftists were left deeply illusioned with the atrocities of the Obama years and liberals seeming to not really care about the bad things done by their most decidedly problematic faves. Some of us broke harder and worse than others.
The venom in this thread is a great example of this. Reading the comments here, you would think it was Greenwald who murdered an American child without trial by drone strike. The contradictions contained within American liberalism really are wild as shit.
It's a sad fall for someone who did a lot of good and another great example for why Twitter and media discourse is incredibly corrosive.
posted by Ouverture at 12:55 PM on October 29, 2020 [41 favorites]
I think a lot of leftists were left deeply illusioned with the atrocities of the Obama years and liberals seeming to not really care about the bad things done by their most decidedly problematic faves. Some of us broke harder and worse than others.
The venom in this thread is a great example of this. Reading the comments here, you would think it was Greenwald who murdered an American child without trial by drone strike. The contradictions contained within American liberalism really are wild as shit.
It's a sad fall for someone who did a lot of good and another great example for why Twitter and media discourse is incredibly corrosive.
posted by Ouverture at 12:55 PM on October 29, 2020 [41 favorites]
If you think the comments above are "venomous", then I am not sure what you have been reading. It's a pretty factual assessment of the fact that Greenwald has, as feckless phrased it, ended up "Trump-adjacent".
posted by tavella at 12:59 PM on October 29, 2020 [74 favorites]
posted by tavella at 12:59 PM on October 29, 2020 [74 favorites]
So is he going to Fox or OANN? Or Russia Today?
I figured he was maybe gunning for an early spot at whatever Trump media empire he tries to gin up if he loses.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:01 PM on October 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
I figured he was maybe gunning for an early spot at whatever Trump media empire he tries to gin up if he loses.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:01 PM on October 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
I mean, it's possible to criticize Obama's foreign policy without turning into someone who goes on Tucker to talk about Hunter Biden's Laptop From Hell.
posted by theodolite at 1:01 PM on October 29, 2020 [93 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 1:01 PM on October 29, 2020 [93 favorites]
It's a long road from legitimately pointing out the failures of the Obama administration to blatantly carrying water for the Trump campaign.
posted by octothorpe at 1:02 PM on October 29, 2020 [47 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 1:02 PM on October 29, 2020 [47 favorites]
Greenwald has, as feckless phrased it, ended up "Trump-adjacent".
an example or two? spaciba.
posted by sammyo at 1:03 PM on October 29, 2020 [7 favorites]
an example or two? spaciba.
posted by sammyo at 1:03 PM on October 29, 2020 [7 favorites]
Oh good! Just a couple days ago I was just reading a piece* in The Intercept and weighing up how much I trust the venue. Greenwald's continued involvement with the publication really tainted it for me. I think much better of them now. His work with Snowden was brave and necessary and I, too, am antiwar and anti-drone strikes and deeply suspicious of our state surveillance regimes. But the political judgment he's shown regarding Trump has just been so poor that I was close to writing off the whole magazine.
Glad to find out I was wrong.
* This article on ethical AI initiatives in academia by Rodrigo Ochigame. It seemed a little facile in how it tarred all the programs with the same brush, and a little iffy in how extending the Media Lab case...but I think my attitude towards Greenwald was really coloring my reading. Happily, that didn't keep me from looking up Ochigame's other work, because that other work is pretty great. Definitely someone to watch if you're into well-informed critiques of tech.
posted by col_pogo at 1:04 PM on October 29, 2020 [14 favorites]
Glad to find out I was wrong.
* This article on ethical AI initiatives in academia by Rodrigo Ochigame. It seemed a little facile in how it tarred all the programs with the same brush, and a little iffy in how extending the Media Lab case...but I think my attitude towards Greenwald was really coloring my reading. Happily, that didn't keep me from looking up Ochigame's other work, because that other work is pretty great. Definitely someone to watch if you're into well-informed critiques of tech.
posted by col_pogo at 1:04 PM on October 29, 2020 [14 favorites]
I mean, it's possible to criticize Obama's foreign policy without turning into someone who goes on Tucker to talk about Hunter Biden's Laptop From Hell.
It's a shame so few liberals seem able to do that and that Greenwald of all people was the one who did. Partisanship really is morally poisonous.
The silver lining is that maybe more people will be able to believe stories coming from The Intercept.
posted by Ouverture at 1:04 PM on October 29, 2020 [10 favorites]
It's a shame so few liberals seem able to do that and that Greenwald of all people was the one who did. Partisanship really is morally poisonous.
The silver lining is that maybe more people will be able to believe stories coming from The Intercept.
posted by Ouverture at 1:04 PM on October 29, 2020 [10 favorites]
Greenwald strikes me as someone who at some deep level has an adversarial bent towards any kind of structure / authority and has never been able to process tradeoffs particularly well.
That's going to resonate broadly with readers who in any given moment think the tradeoffs are very bad indeed, and to whatever portion of progressivism for which progress is essentially the process is increasing the fineness of the grain with which we can identify tyranny and denounce it it might be especially tempting.
But it's going to fall flat with readers who think that tradeoffs are good enough or possibly as good as can be reasonably expected, and it always brings you to the end of your ability to cooperate with people.
posted by wildblueyonder at 1:04 PM on October 29, 2020 [33 favorites]
That's going to resonate broadly with readers who in any given moment think the tradeoffs are very bad indeed, and to whatever portion of progressivism for which progress is essentially the process is increasing the fineness of the grain with which we can identify tyranny and denounce it it might be especially tempting.
But it's going to fall flat with readers who think that tradeoffs are good enough or possibly as good as can be reasonably expected, and it always brings you to the end of your ability to cooperate with people.
posted by wildblueyonder at 1:04 PM on October 29, 2020 [33 favorites]
Exactly, wildblueyonder - reflexive contrarians are essentially letting themselves be defined and guided by others.
posted by PhineasGage at 1:09 PM on October 29, 2020 [15 favorites]
posted by PhineasGage at 1:09 PM on October 29, 2020 [15 favorites]
Oh good! Just a couple days ago I was just reading a piece* in The Intercept and weighing up how much I trust the venue. Greenwald's continued involvement with the publication really tainted it for me.
For me, it was The Intercept throwing Reality Winner to the wolves. I have suspicions of Greenwald pushing a discredited story, but what Betsy Reed and her team did immediately makes me suspect their motivations, as well. We're probably not getting the entire story, and their editorial staff are certainly not trustworthy, at this juncture.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:10 PM on October 29, 2020 [26 favorites]
For me, it was The Intercept throwing Reality Winner to the wolves. I have suspicions of Greenwald pushing a discredited story, but what Betsy Reed and her team did immediately makes me suspect their motivations, as well. We're probably not getting the entire story, and their editorial staff are certainly not trustworthy, at this juncture.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 1:10 PM on October 29, 2020 [26 favorites]
I think he's actually going to try to set up his own leftier-than-thou InfoWars according to his "goodbye, cruel world" post.
The spectrum of politics truly is a circle.
posted by wierdo at 1:15 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
The spectrum of politics truly is a circle.
posted by wierdo at 1:15 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
It's a sad fall for someone who did a lot of good and another great example for why Twitter and media discourse is incredibly corrosive.
His Unclaimed Territory blog (which is still there!) was essential reading for me back in the Dubya years.
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 1:16 PM on October 29, 2020 [3 favorites]
His Unclaimed Territory blog (which is still there!) was essential reading for me back in the Dubya years.
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 1:16 PM on October 29, 2020 [3 favorites]
I wouldn't say Greenwald became "Trump-adjacent," more like "Putin-adjacent." His work since Snowden makes a lot of sense if, say, it turned out that Snowden was a Russian asset, and Greenwald all-too aware. He's enough of a narcissist to believe that he's using the GRU, and not the other way around.
posted by touchstone033 at 1:17 PM on October 29, 2020 [18 favorites]
posted by touchstone033 at 1:17 PM on October 29, 2020 [18 favorites]
The problem with being devil's advocate for so long is that eventually you're just advocating for the devil.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:25 PM on October 29, 2020 [54 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:25 PM on October 29, 2020 [54 favorites]
This is definitely a sad decline that I flip-flop between wondering if there's a grain of credibility underlying his changes, or if it is simply as it appears. I started reading him in the Unclaimed Territory years during the Plame Affair, and he was great then. Fire Dog Lake, early Emptywheel, DDay, Digby, Bmaz, Pam Groklaw and more were part of an upstart leftist resistance that Greenwald was definitely a strong part of and who helped spawn an interest in Constitutional law, if not criminal and civil procedure in general. This isn't much of an eulogy for the era, but it exists in only weak connections like a classic rock festival where each band contains only one member from their original lineups, and like those festivals is a sad result.
I've always assumed that Greenwald's post-Snowden, pre-Brazil treatment by the US government changed him profoundly in response to things I think we don't even know about, so there's been a kernel of giving him the benefit of the doubt in the back of my head, hoping he might snap out of it, but I'm guessing PTSD doesn't work that way. Sometimes when things get broken, they're broken forever.
posted by rhizome at 1:33 PM on October 29, 2020 [10 favorites]
I've always assumed that Greenwald's post-Snowden, pre-Brazil treatment by the US government changed him profoundly in response to things I think we don't even know about, so there's been a kernel of giving him the benefit of the doubt in the back of my head, hoping he might snap out of it, but I'm guessing PTSD doesn't work that way. Sometimes when things get broken, they're broken forever.
posted by rhizome at 1:33 PM on October 29, 2020 [10 favorites]
He did good work back in the day but the BothSides braineater eventually got him. Now every story reads "Trump did something despicable; but wait, Democrats did the despicable thing too 30 years ago, they need to clean house and become Gandalf the White before criticizing genocide."
posted by benzenedream at 1:48 PM on October 29, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 1:48 PM on October 29, 2020 [10 favorites]
But it's going to fall flat with readers who think that tradeoffs are good enough or possibly as good as can be reasonably expected, and it always brings you to the end of your ability to cooperate with people.
This. Being president has always been about a lot of choices between shitty fucking thing #1 and shitty fucking thing #2. The guy who points out someone did shitty fucking thing #1 when obvious shitty fucking thing #2 was going to have its own set of bad just ends up being annoying at best and counter-productive at worst.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:49 PM on October 29, 2020 [8 favorites]
This. Being president has always been about a lot of choices between shitty fucking thing #1 and shitty fucking thing #2. The guy who points out someone did shitty fucking thing #1 when obvious shitty fucking thing #2 was going to have its own set of bad just ends up being annoying at best and counter-productive at worst.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 1:49 PM on October 29, 2020 [8 favorites]
So is he going to Fox or OANN? Or Russia Today?
I predict none of the above. I think he'll start his own outlet with mysterious funding.
posted by srboisvert at 1:51 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
I predict none of the above. I think he'll start his own outlet with mysterious funding.
posted by srboisvert at 1:51 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
> Greenwald always has done and continues to do great work, but he really should have been smarter than to take money from a billionaire. Doesn't matter how well you fight against it, your institution is eventually going to push that billionaire's interests.
As we all know, billionaires have long been obsessed with Hunter Biden's Laptop and making sure that Joe Biden becomes President.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:56 PM on October 29, 2020 [6 favorites]
As we all know, billionaires have long been obsessed with Hunter Biden's Laptop and making sure that Joe Biden becomes President.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:56 PM on October 29, 2020 [6 favorites]
Greenwald's professional trajectory makes me genuinely sad, but I won't pretend my immediate reaction to this news was not, "Oh, that's good. Perhaps The Intercept can regain some credibility now. That would be nice." They do good journalism, but the association tarnished that to the point where I always had to weigh whether or not to share even a well-sourced, thoroughly researched article from the outlet because many people would dismiss it without reading due to Greenwald.
The Reality Winner story is still a sore spot, too. She and Manning are both genuine heroes, and both were discarded like rubbish by everyone. There is no reason to be a whistleblower in the current era except a suicidal belief in doing the right thing no matter the cost to oneself.
posted by Lonnrot at 1:58 PM on October 29, 2020 [38 favorites]
The Reality Winner story is still a sore spot, too. She and Manning are both genuine heroes, and both were discarded like rubbish by everyone. There is no reason to be a whistleblower in the current era except a suicidal belief in doing the right thing no matter the cost to oneself.
posted by Lonnrot at 1:58 PM on October 29, 2020 [38 favorites]
Whatever the fuminations from New York and the American left, Greenwald's founding and subsequent work at The Intercept - Brazil is something that will always be remembered and especially the way he stood up to the Bolsonazis last year. This new journalistic institution in only 4 years in a country where one outlet has 80% penetration (Globo) has become the flagship for opposition to the authoritarian right and will hopefully be continued under the editorial leadership of Leandro Demori and Andrew Fishman.
Greenwald will move forward to new ventures and I wish him all sucess that his pen may stay mightier than the sword it is often fighting. On a personal level he also deserves great credit for adopting 2 kids with his partner David Miranda and for his dedication to 25 plus stray dogs that they care for and the homeless people that they assist. Valeu Glenn.
posted by adamvasco at 2:00 PM on October 29, 2020 [31 favorites]
Greenwald will move forward to new ventures and I wish him all sucess that his pen may stay mightier than the sword it is often fighting. On a personal level he also deserves great credit for adopting 2 kids with his partner David Miranda and for his dedication to 25 plus stray dogs that they care for and the homeless people that they assist. Valeu Glenn.
posted by adamvasco at 2:00 PM on October 29, 2020 [31 favorites]
This is definitely a sad decline that I flip-flop between wondering if there's a grain of credibility underlying his changes,
It's worth remembering that Greenwald came to prominence initially by arguing that it was a gross violation of freedom to deny an open white supremacist (and likely domestic terrorist) the right to practice law.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:03 PM on October 29, 2020 [3 favorites]
It's worth remembering that Greenwald came to prominence initially by arguing that it was a gross violation of freedom to deny an open white supremacist (and likely domestic terrorist) the right to practice law.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:03 PM on October 29, 2020 [3 favorites]
I think a lot of leftists were left deeply illusioned with the atrocities of the Obama years and liberals seeming to not really care about the bad things done by their most decidedly problematic faves.
I guess the "Sure, Trump is bad, but how about Barrack Hussain Obama????" takes aren't (err, weren't) just confined to The Intercept.
posted by sideshow at 2:07 PM on October 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
I guess the "Sure, Trump is bad, but how about Barrack Hussain Obama????" takes aren't (err, weren't) just confined to The Intercept.
posted by sideshow at 2:07 PM on October 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
adamvasco Strong agree on the Brazil, as abrasive, annoying, paranoid, and possibly delusional GG is, he performed a powerful service for the people of Brazil by busting open the bullshit lava jato conspiracy. It's understandable that he is paranoid and conspiratorial when he's exposed a bunch of insane conspiracies, and pissed off a LOT of powerful and ruthless people along the way. At the same time, he has a serious case of internet brain and maybe needs to log off and pet his dogs more.
posted by youthenrage at 2:09 PM on October 29, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by youthenrage at 2:09 PM on October 29, 2020 [11 favorites]
I guess the "Sure, Trump is bad, but how about Barrack Hussain Obama????" takes aren't (err, weren't) just confined to The Intercept.
Thank you for illustrating what I'm talking about.
posted by Ouverture at 2:20 PM on October 29, 2020 [9 favorites]
Thank you for illustrating what I'm talking about.
posted by Ouverture at 2:20 PM on October 29, 2020 [9 favorites]
People in the securities and investment industry will finish the 2020 election cycle contributing over $74 million to back Joe Biden’s candidacy for president
Maybe they're simply more likely than the median donor to realize that riding an uncontrolled pandemic to the bitter end is, on balance, bad for the economy
posted by BungaDunga at 2:27 PM on October 29, 2020 [15 favorites]
Maybe they're simply more likely than the median donor to realize that riding an uncontrolled pandemic to the bitter end is, on balance, bad for the economy
posted by BungaDunga at 2:27 PM on October 29, 2020 [15 favorites]
Glenn Greenwald is the most important journalist of his generation (NSA, Brazil, etc.). The fact that he would be prevented from publishing criticisms of Joe Biden in a run up to the election (because, let's be real, that's clearly what this is all about) just underscores his point about how purportedly adversarial left-leaning outlets are really in thrall to the Democratic Party. The cowardly wagon-circling from other media types cheering his public shaming only proves his point.
GG has published the draft that the Intercept refused to publish and his correspondence with the Intercept on his substack.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:27 PM on October 29, 2020 [11 favorites]
GG has published the draft that the Intercept refused to publish and his correspondence with the Intercept on his substack.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:27 PM on October 29, 2020 [11 favorites]
emptywheel is reviewing GG's article in an ever-longer twitter thread.
posted by gladly at 2:29 PM on October 29, 2020 [22 favorites]
posted by gladly at 2:29 PM on October 29, 2020 [22 favorites]
Greenwald has now posted "Emails With Intercept Editors Showing Censorship of My Joe Biden Article," which, to my reading, don't seem to support his argument. [on edit, 'jinx']
posted by PhineasGage at 2:29 PM on October 29, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by PhineasGage at 2:29 PM on October 29, 2020 [7 favorites]
People in the securities and investment industry will finish the 2020 election cycle contributing over $74 million to back Joe Biden’s candidacy for president
It's worth keeping an eye on campaign contributions to anyone, Biden included, but there's also two things worth remembering about this:
1) Contributions can be less an indicator of who donors think represents their interests and more an indicator of who they think will win and want a foot in the door for access, which has its own challenges (and will mean that progressives have to be on the inter-election engagement game) but is fundamentally different in nature than Biden primarily representing the rich.
2) Trump is a con man, more criminal than capitalist. We can list real limits and failures of capitalism here but it has *some* meritocratic features and a lot of people who've been its winners believe in that or even depend on it in some way. Trumpism takes cronyism to new levels and corrodes the meritocratic features of the system that exist, everything gets oriented around for and against him. Biden might raise taxes but sharing a higher percent off the back end for a system in which winners aren't determined by Trump & toadies is absolutely worth it to even some of the rich.
posted by wildblueyonder at 2:31 PM on October 29, 2020 [14 favorites]
It's worth keeping an eye on campaign contributions to anyone, Biden included, but there's also two things worth remembering about this:
1) Contributions can be less an indicator of who donors think represents their interests and more an indicator of who they think will win and want a foot in the door for access, which has its own challenges (and will mean that progressives have to be on the inter-election engagement game) but is fundamentally different in nature than Biden primarily representing the rich.
2) Trump is a con man, more criminal than capitalist. We can list real limits and failures of capitalism here but it has *some* meritocratic features and a lot of people who've been its winners believe in that or even depend on it in some way. Trumpism takes cronyism to new levels and corrodes the meritocratic features of the system that exist, everything gets oriented around for and against him. Biden might raise taxes but sharing a higher percent off the back end for a system in which winners aren't determined by Trump & toadies is absolutely worth it to even some of the rich.
posted by wildblueyonder at 2:31 PM on October 29, 2020 [14 favorites]
Unfortunately, I think he might be planning something with Bari Weiss (he mentioned he was getting closer to her on his recent appearance on Joe Rogan). Not the direction that I would like him to go, given my extremely low opinion of her, and extremely high opinion of him, but c'est la vie.
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:31 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:31 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
Greenwald strikes me as someone who at some deep level has an adversarial bent towards any kind of structure / authority and has never been able to process tradeoffs particularly well.
so the perfect vs the good, I guess. It is possible to be a hero on some things, a dangerous actor on others. History's overloaded with examples.
And worth noting. Yesterday on Joe Rogan's podcast:
Joe Rogan Experience #1556 - Glenn Greenwald
That is, before he was fired.
posted by philip-random at 2:31 PM on October 29, 2020 [1 favorite]
so the perfect vs the good, I guess. It is possible to be a hero on some things, a dangerous actor on others. History's overloaded with examples.
And worth noting. Yesterday on Joe Rogan's podcast:
Joe Rogan Experience #1556 - Glenn Greenwald
That is, before he was fired.
posted by philip-random at 2:31 PM on October 29, 2020 [1 favorite]
For real though the faceblind laptop repair guy story is some Jacob-Wohl-level goofball shit and anyone promoting it is either an incredible dumbass or a liar
posted by theodolite at 2:40 PM on October 29, 2020 [51 favorites]
posted by theodolite at 2:40 PM on October 29, 2020 [51 favorites]
Ctrl-F "Clinton" - no results found..
I mean, it's fine to talk about his disillusionment with the Obama administration being possibly the beginning of this trajectory but are we just not going to talk about the sheer amount of obviously personal animus he carried towards Hilary Clinton and the influence that had on his writing?
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:42 PM on October 29, 2020 [26 favorites]
I mean, it's fine to talk about his disillusionment with the Obama administration being possibly the beginning of this trajectory but are we just not going to talk about the sheer amount of obviously personal animus he carried towards Hilary Clinton and the influence that had on his writing?
posted by Nerd of the North at 2:42 PM on October 29, 2020 [26 favorites]
just underscores his point about how purportedly adversarial left-leaning outlets are really in thrall to the Democratic Party
Adversarial to whom? Are they supposed to be reflexively antagonize centrist Dems? Even if this is true, none of these entities have anything close to the influence of USA Today, CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, and Sinclair.
posted by benzenedream at 2:44 PM on October 29, 2020 [6 favorites]
Adversarial to whom? Are they supposed to be reflexively antagonize centrist Dems? Even if this is true, none of these entities have anything close to the influence of USA Today, CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, and Sinclair.
posted by benzenedream at 2:44 PM on October 29, 2020 [6 favorites]
Glenn Greenwald is the most important journalist of his generation (NSA, Brazil, etc.). The fact that he would be prevented from publishing criticisms of Joe Biden in a run up to the election (because, let's be real, that's clearly what this is all about) just underscores his point about how purportedly adversarial left-leaning outlets are really in thrall to the Democratic Party. The cowardly wagon-circling from other media types cheering his public shaming only proves his point.
Poe's Law or is this serious?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:46 PM on October 29, 2020 [35 favorites]
Poe's Law or is this serious?
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 2:46 PM on October 29, 2020 [35 favorites]
I predict he will make a ton of money on Substack.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:50 PM on October 29, 2020
posted by Bella Donna at 2:50 PM on October 29, 2020
If Greenwald is a GRU asset, I wonder whether they actually have a handler feeding him material and guidance, or whether they just gave him a push and stood back to watch his narcissism take its course.
posted by acb at 2:56 PM on October 29, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by acb at 2:56 PM on October 29, 2020 [5 favorites]
Has Greenwald written about drone strikes at all since March 2017? Did I miss the memo where Trump stopped the drone program as part of his war on the deep state?
posted by muddgirl at 3:08 PM on October 29, 2020 [58 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 3:08 PM on October 29, 2020 [58 favorites]
Trump ended transparency about the nation's drone program, and by some accounts ramped it up.
posted by drezdn at 3:10 PM on October 29, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 3:10 PM on October 29, 2020 [12 favorites]
(Yes of course, I was asking a rhetorical question).
posted by muddgirl at 3:11 PM on October 29, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 3:11 PM on October 29, 2020 [8 favorites]
he would be prevented from publishing criticisms of Joe Biden in a run up to the election
GG has published the draft that the Intercept refused to publish
Prevented, my butt.
The Intercept is not visibly in league with Biden. They published Ryan Grim's Tara Reade story!
posted by BungaDunga at 3:19 PM on October 29, 2020 [18 favorites]
GG has published the draft that the Intercept refused to publish
Prevented, my butt.
The Intercept is not visibly in league with Biden. They published Ryan Grim's Tara Reade story!
posted by BungaDunga at 3:19 PM on October 29, 2020 [18 favorites]
“My arrangement with The Intercept since it began is my opinion pieces are not edited by anyone”
At some level, it's almost impossible to do responsible journalism without a least a modicum of editorial oversight. Whether you're writing "opinion pieces" or not is irrelevant; journalistic integrity still demands that the facts present in those pieces be, if not substantiated, then at least plausible. Editors, when they do their jobs, are a crucial sanity check that keep the writing grounded. Any journalist who insists that they should never have to answer to an editor for anything they've written seems, to me at least, to be on a road to becoming a fabulist, whether or not they have any self-awareness about their drift from reality.
posted by belarius at 3:28 PM on October 29, 2020 [29 favorites]
At some level, it's almost impossible to do responsible journalism without a least a modicum of editorial oversight. Whether you're writing "opinion pieces" or not is irrelevant; journalistic integrity still demands that the facts present in those pieces be, if not substantiated, then at least plausible. Editors, when they do their jobs, are a crucial sanity check that keep the writing grounded. Any journalist who insists that they should never have to answer to an editor for anything they've written seems, to me at least, to be on a road to becoming a fabulist, whether or not they have any self-awareness about their drift from reality.
posted by belarius at 3:28 PM on October 29, 2020 [29 favorites]
Don't count Sputnik out. He isn't the on-air pundit type, he sticks to the written format more often than not.
posted by Chuffy at 3:45 PM on October 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Chuffy at 3:45 PM on October 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
> so the perfect vs the good, I guess. It is possible to be a hero on some things, a dangerous actor on others. History's overloaded with examples.
All that's happened here is that Glenn has been held accountable for the latter after being handsomely rewarded for the former. You don't ignore all the times he's pushed lunatic conspiracy theories just because he's done some other work that has been unambiguously good. The basic and easily-refutable factual errors that he routinely makes when the target of his writing is someone he's labeled an enemy could have easily derailed the great investigative stories he's done in the past, but of course he didn't make those kinds of errors in those stories, because they aren't accidents.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:49 PM on October 29, 2020 [17 favorites]
All that's happened here is that Glenn has been held accountable for the latter after being handsomely rewarded for the former. You don't ignore all the times he's pushed lunatic conspiracy theories just because he's done some other work that has been unambiguously good. The basic and easily-refutable factual errors that he routinely makes when the target of his writing is someone he's labeled an enemy could have easily derailed the great investigative stories he's done in the past, but of course he didn't make those kinds of errors in those stories, because they aren't accidents.
posted by tonycpsu at 3:49 PM on October 29, 2020 [17 favorites]
Curious to see whether those promised email exchanges back him up. I have mixed feelings about Glenn but I’m fairly convinced that, if you think the Hunter story is a non-issue vis-a-vis Joe Biden, the heavy-handed rejection of it by media and social media outlets has been counterproductive as far as making it an issue.
posted by atoxyl at 4:08 PM on October 29, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 4:08 PM on October 29, 2020 [3 favorites]
"He seemed very smart but also extraordinarily loquacious, stubborn, pugnacious, and self-righteous."
Only four synonyms? You're losing your perspicacity.
posted by krisjohn at 4:19 PM on October 29, 2020 [7 favorites]
Only four synonyms? You're losing your perspicacity.
posted by krisjohn at 4:19 PM on October 29, 2020 [7 favorites]
i read the article. i read the intercept rebuttal.
sad news... and strange reaction from metafilter.
this place is reactionary.
Did you also read the emptywheel thread linked above, or did you just read enough to confirm your pre-existing views?
posted by mstokes650 at 4:20 PM on October 29, 2020 [18 favorites]
sad news... and strange reaction from metafilter.
this place is reactionary.
Did you also read the emptywheel thread linked above, or did you just read enough to confirm your pre-existing views?
posted by mstokes650 at 4:20 PM on October 29, 2020 [18 favorites]
I kind of wish we could all just admit that the situation, here in 2020, is that many of us are just utterly unperturbed by the possibility of a candidate’s petty corruption, because we’ve been absolutely saturated with the stuff for the past four years.
posted by atoxyl at 4:23 PM on October 29, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by atoxyl at 4:23 PM on October 29, 2020 [11 favorites]
> I’m fairly convinced that, if you think the Hunter story is a non-issue vis-a-vis Joe Biden, the heavy-handed rejection of it by media and social media outlets has been counterproductive as far as making it an issue.
What sort of less heavy-handed rejection would be appropriate for a story with such flimsy sourcing, no forensic evidence, and a chain of custody for the laptop that starts with an "ardent Trump supporter" and includes Rudy fucking Giuliani?
posted by tonycpsu at 4:25 PM on October 29, 2020 [67 favorites]
What sort of less heavy-handed rejection would be appropriate for a story with such flimsy sourcing, no forensic evidence, and a chain of custody for the laptop that starts with an "ardent Trump supporter" and includes Rudy fucking Giuliani?
posted by tonycpsu at 4:25 PM on October 29, 2020 [67 favorites]
For all of Greenwald’s constant complaining that the Trump-Russia connection is held together by very thin thread, it is bizarre for him to hold so tight to sketchy evidence of mysterious provenance and allegations that, even if true, aren’t don’t suggest any criminal activity. I’d also note that the alleged Biden conspiracy is way too confusing for the average person to grasp - ironically, just like the Trump-Ukraine connection.
posted by schoolgirl report at 4:27 PM on October 29, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by schoolgirl report at 4:27 PM on October 29, 2020 [8 favorites]
I have mixed feelings about Glenn but I’m fairly convinced that, if you think the Hunter story is a non-issue vis-a-vis Joe Biden..Part of the problem is that it is not possible to usefully discuss something as vaguely specified as "the Hunter story" without saying much more specifically what it is that you mean.
Am I happy that Biden has a dubiously qualified son who holds notably remunerative positions that one pretty much has to presume he was eligible for based on his father's resume and not his own accomplishments? Absolutely not.
Do I think that Biden has acknowledged and addressed this sufficiently? Absolutely not.
Did I vote for Biden anyway? Absolutely.
So.. if that's the tune you mean when you refer to "the Hunter story", that's one thing. But for approximately half the country "the Hunter story" is Rudy Giuliani's opus 69, Ukrainian Fantasy with Laptop. I think it's important to be specific.
posted by Nerd of the North at 4:34 PM on October 29, 2020 [26 favorites]
Wow, that Dave Neiwert Twitter thread is a wild ride--I had followed the Matt Hale saga for a while, since he's from my neck of the woods, but had no idea that GG was his lawyer, let alone how assiduously he'd attacked people working in opposition to Hale. Neiwert also notes how he'd initially approved of GG and their eventual falling-out; people inclined to support GG for going after the "Bolsonazis" may want to go back to that thread and peruse it, particularly noting the bit at the end about how GG may be so opposed to them because he lives in Brazil.
Also, someone mentioned firedoglake above WRT the lefty blogosphere, and I wish that there was some history of its rise and fall--I know about it because I followed lots of liberal blogs back in the day, and would note how at first people approved of Jane Hamsher & Co., then be dismayed by their increasingly counterproductive and outright bad behavior (publishing a p-shopped picture of Joe Lieberman in blackface which helped doom Ned Lamont's candidacy for CT senator, teaming up with Grover Norquist). Certain parallels to the subject at hand exist.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:35 PM on October 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
Also, someone mentioned firedoglake above WRT the lefty blogosphere, and I wish that there was some history of its rise and fall--I know about it because I followed lots of liberal blogs back in the day, and would note how at first people approved of Jane Hamsher & Co., then be dismayed by their increasingly counterproductive and outright bad behavior (publishing a p-shopped picture of Joe Lieberman in blackface which helped doom Ned Lamont's candidacy for CT senator, teaming up with Grover Norquist). Certain parallels to the subject at hand exist.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:35 PM on October 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
I'm utterly unperturbed by allegations that are even more poorly sourced, more fantastical, and have a timeline that makes less sense than the buttery emails story of 2016. I will care when people like GG stop writing pieces that are "just asking questions" and start writing ones that credibly show that there is actually a there there.
Some of the people aligning themselves with GG on this railed pretty hard against NYT articles that read almost exactly like the piece he's throwing his tantrum over. Hell, I'm pretty sure I remember Greenwald himself complaining about the credulousness of the emails story after the fact as part of his "feckless MSM" narrative.
posted by wierdo at 4:37 PM on October 29, 2020 [12 favorites]
Some of the people aligning themselves with GG on this railed pretty hard against NYT articles that read almost exactly like the piece he's throwing his tantrum over. Hell, I'm pretty sure I remember Greenwald himself complaining about the credulousness of the emails story after the fact as part of his "feckless MSM" narrative.
posted by wierdo at 4:37 PM on October 29, 2020 [12 favorites]
I have mixed feelings about Glenn but I’m fairly convinced that, if you think the Hunter story is a non-issue vis-a-vis Joe Biden, the heavy-handed rejection of it by media and social media outlets has been counterproductive as far as making it an issue.
the laptop isn't the real issue - control of the media spotlight is - they're trying to shame the mainstream media with lies in the hope that the lies will be rejected and they can be accused of censorship
it's more desperation - the right wing seems to be losing its mind these days
the laptop would never be admitted in court - we don't know who had it, what was done to it, what was and wasn't copied from it and we can never know
posted by pyramid termite at 4:45 PM on October 29, 2020 [10 favorites]
the laptop isn't the real issue - control of the media spotlight is - they're trying to shame the mainstream media with lies in the hope that the lies will be rejected and they can be accused of censorship
it's more desperation - the right wing seems to be losing its mind these days
the laptop would never be admitted in court - we don't know who had it, what was done to it, what was and wasn't copied from it and we can never know
posted by pyramid termite at 4:45 PM on October 29, 2020 [10 favorites]
Yeah, what Hunter Biden story are we even talking about? The general nepotism thing, or the nonsense that probably got some of its start from a fake "intelligence" dossier about him authored by a non-existent person? Is there some big media conspiracy to suppress any of these supposed Hunter Biden stories, or is it just that respected media outlets have correctly identified them as disinformation?
The story here isn't Hunter Biden, it's the swarm of conspiracy theories the right wing is attempting to surround him with, and anyone who's taking the conspiracy theories at face value deserves to be treated with intense skepticism.
posted by yasaman at 4:45 PM on October 29, 2020 [20 favorites]
The story here isn't Hunter Biden, it's the swarm of conspiracy theories the right wing is attempting to surround him with, and anyone who's taking the conspiracy theories at face value deserves to be treated with intense skepticism.
posted by yasaman at 4:45 PM on October 29, 2020 [20 favorites]
I will care when people like GG stop writing pieces that are "just asking questions" and start writing ones that credibly show that there is actually a there there.
This is basically it. Insinuate using "just asking questions" knowing that one can't prove a negative and suddenly you don't even need credible evidence or sources. You can just make stuff up from whole cloth and force the target to prove it didn't happen. It's such lazy "journalism".
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:46 PM on October 29, 2020 [15 favorites]
This is basically it. Insinuate using "just asking questions" knowing that one can't prove a negative and suddenly you don't even need credible evidence or sources. You can just make stuff up from whole cloth and force the target to prove it didn't happen. It's such lazy "journalism".
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 4:46 PM on October 29, 2020 [15 favorites]
I'm glad someone linked the Matt Niewart thread. I remember Greenwald's behavior when he was defending Matt Hale. Because I remember my friend who was shot by Matt Hale's follower, Benjamin Smith. And I remember Greenwald's comments in court filings and in the media where he called the victims of that shooting and their families "odious and repugnant" for suing Matt Hale. My friend, who was shot, was "odious and repugnant." Matt Hale, according to Greenwald, was just a guy trying to exercise his free speech, and not at all a violent white supremacist using harassment and intimidation to shut down OTHER people's free speech, free exercise, or freedom to walk safely around their neighborhoods. Matt Hale's free speech mattered, and the SPLC was suing him to try to silence him; the free speech of the racial minorities and Jews that Hale harassed and intimidated and encouraged his followers to commit physical crimes again didn't matter. Not only did Greenwald not care that they were being silenced (AND MURDERED), he participated in silencing them. He has NEVER been a free speech advocate; he is an advocate for free speech for certain people, who look a lot like him, and he worked HARD to intimidate and abuse those victims for speaking out and for bringing lawsuits.
And I remember how Greenwald almost immediate got into trouble with the Illinois courts, who are NOT NOTABLY PROACTIVE on ethics violations (IMO) because his ethical violations when representing Hale were SUPER egregious, involving fraud and deceit, and violating the legal and civil rights of some of the victims and family members who were witnesses against his client. Hale was later convicted of conspiring to murder a federal judge (whose husband ended up murdered), and Greenwald objected -- again, in the national press -- that Hale was wrongfully convicted. (There was some suspicion that Greenwald may have himself been involved in the conspiracy, as Hale apparently attempted to pass coded messages through Greenwald.)
One of my best friends, also an Illinois attorney, basically does NOTHING BUT defend murderers. Really bad ones! So I don't take issue with lawyers taking on horrible clients. But somehow my friend -- and basically all lawyers I know -- manage to take on odious clients without repeating their disgusting rhetoric in the press or defending their horrifying ideas as ethical or calling the victims of their crimes odious and repugnant or violating a shit-ton of ethical canons for lawyers.
I think Greenwald did good work in his early years with the Intercept. But I've always been HELLA skeptical of him as an ethical scold, because this is not a dude who gave a shit about ethics as a lawyer. He lied and cheated (while trying to convince the courts that Matt Hale shouldn't be refused admission to the bar for ethical concerns, no less!), and he got caught by the courts. And he parroted and promoted Matt Hale's gross white supremacy. He defended not just Matt Hale's right to speak; he defended Matt Hale's SPEECH. And he demonized Black and Asian murder victims to defend Matt Hale's speech. Ethically, Greenwald SUCKS.
I was also sadly unsurprised when he started hanging around the "dirtbag left" and some parts of the right, because boy oh boy was he suuuuuuuuuuuper comfortable repeating white supremacist content 20 years ago.
But yeah, everything about the Matt Hale saga hits incredibly close to home for me (including the state in which I am admitted to the bar), and I will never forget Greenwald's behavior. And I will never forget, and never forgive, him calling Black and Asian murder victims, including my friend, and their families "odious and repugnant" for daring to speak out against his white supremacist client.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:49 PM on October 29, 2020 [140 favorites]
And I remember how Greenwald almost immediate got into trouble with the Illinois courts, who are NOT NOTABLY PROACTIVE on ethics violations (IMO) because his ethical violations when representing Hale were SUPER egregious, involving fraud and deceit, and violating the legal and civil rights of some of the victims and family members who were witnesses against his client. Hale was later convicted of conspiring to murder a federal judge (whose husband ended up murdered), and Greenwald objected -- again, in the national press -- that Hale was wrongfully convicted. (There was some suspicion that Greenwald may have himself been involved in the conspiracy, as Hale apparently attempted to pass coded messages through Greenwald.)
One of my best friends, also an Illinois attorney, basically does NOTHING BUT defend murderers. Really bad ones! So I don't take issue with lawyers taking on horrible clients. But somehow my friend -- and basically all lawyers I know -- manage to take on odious clients without repeating their disgusting rhetoric in the press or defending their horrifying ideas as ethical or calling the victims of their crimes odious and repugnant or violating a shit-ton of ethical canons for lawyers.
I think Greenwald did good work in his early years with the Intercept. But I've always been HELLA skeptical of him as an ethical scold, because this is not a dude who gave a shit about ethics as a lawyer. He lied and cheated (while trying to convince the courts that Matt Hale shouldn't be refused admission to the bar for ethical concerns, no less!), and he got caught by the courts. And he parroted and promoted Matt Hale's gross white supremacy. He defended not just Matt Hale's right to speak; he defended Matt Hale's SPEECH. And he demonized Black and Asian murder victims to defend Matt Hale's speech. Ethically, Greenwald SUCKS.
I was also sadly unsurprised when he started hanging around the "dirtbag left" and some parts of the right, because boy oh boy was he suuuuuuuuuuuper comfortable repeating white supremacist content 20 years ago.
But yeah, everything about the Matt Hale saga hits incredibly close to home for me (including the state in which I am admitted to the bar), and I will never forget Greenwald's behavior. And I will never forget, and never forgive, him calling Black and Asian murder victims, including my friend, and their families "odious and repugnant" for daring to speak out against his white supremacist client.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 4:49 PM on October 29, 2020 [140 favorites]
What sort of less heavy-handed rejection would be appropriate for a story with such flimsy sourcing, no forensic evidence, and a chain of custody for the laptop that starts with an "ardent Trump supporter" and includes Rudy fucking Giuliani?
Don’t treat it as such a crazy dangerous thing it has to be banned from Twitter. Let Glenn rant about whatever because that’s what he does anyway. I mean again I don’t actually know what his editors told him - that’s why I said I’m curious to see what documentation he produces.
posted by atoxyl at 4:50 PM on October 29, 2020
Don’t treat it as such a crazy dangerous thing it has to be banned from Twitter. Let Glenn rant about whatever because that’s what he does anyway. I mean again I don’t actually know what his editors told him - that’s why I said I’m curious to see what documentation he produces.
posted by atoxyl at 4:50 PM on October 29, 2020
Don’t treat it as such a crazy dangerous thing it has to be banned from Twitter. Let Glenn rant about whatever because that’s what he does anyway.
The past four years have been a long running demonstration of not only why this doesn't work, but why it's dangerous in how it allows actual falsehoods to be injected into the public discourse.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:53 PM on October 29, 2020 [37 favorites]
The past four years have been a long running demonstration of not only why this doesn't work, but why it's dangerous in how it allows actual falsehoods to be injected into the public discourse.
posted by NoxAeternum at 4:53 PM on October 29, 2020 [37 favorites]
I’m curious to see what documentation he produces.
Unfortunately, Tucker Carlson lost it in the mail.
posted by valkane at 4:54 PM on October 29, 2020 [12 favorites]
Unfortunately, Tucker Carlson lost it in the mail.
posted by valkane at 4:54 PM on October 29, 2020 [12 favorites]
I don't get this, what negative conclusion are we supposed to draw from Greenwald risking his life and the lives of his family to support human rights?
When you look at how he defended Hale and how he routinely provides support to Tucker Carlson, it's that the impact of white supremacy and fascism only seems real to him when it's something that directly impacts him.
posted by NoxAeternum at 5:06 PM on October 29, 2020 [19 favorites]
When you look at how he defended Hale and how he routinely provides support to Tucker Carlson, it's that the impact of white supremacy and fascism only seems real to him when it's something that directly impacts him.
posted by NoxAeternum at 5:06 PM on October 29, 2020 [19 favorites]
For all of Greenwald’s constant complaining that the Trump-Russia connection is held together by very thin thread, it is bizarre for him to hold so tight to sketchy evidence of mysterious provenance and allegations that, even if true, aren’t don’t suggest any criminal activity. I’d also note that the alleged Biden conspiracy is way too confusing for the average person to grasp - ironically, just like the Trump-Ukraine connection.
It makes a little more sense if you keep in mind his professional training, and former career, as a lawyer. He’s an advocate first, and a journalist second.
posted by notyou at 5:12 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
It makes a little more sense if you keep in mind his professional training, and former career, as a lawyer. He’s an advocate first, and a journalist second.
posted by notyou at 5:12 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
The past four years have been a long running demonstration of not only why this doesn't work, but why it's dangerous in how it allows actual falsehoods to be injected into the public discourse.
The last four years also haven’t done a whole lot to convince me that attempts at gatekeeping the public discourse work real well, I’ll just say that.
Of course sometimes it’s because the would-be gatekeepers are just really bad at it - again thinking of Twitter and their piñata-swing approach to rule-making, here.
posted by atoxyl at 5:16 PM on October 29, 2020
The last four years also haven’t done a whole lot to convince me that attempts at gatekeeping the public discourse work real well, I’ll just say that.
Of course sometimes it’s because the would-be gatekeepers are just really bad at it - again thinking of Twitter and their piñata-swing approach to rule-making, here.
posted by atoxyl at 5:16 PM on October 29, 2020
Greenwald going on Tucker Calrson’s show has been hinted at, but to be clear it just happened.
posted by sjswitzer at 5:31 PM on October 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by sjswitzer at 5:31 PM on October 29, 2020 [2 favorites]
Greenwald has been going on Tucker Carlson’s show for a long time - probably a major thing that turned people here off from him!
I didn’t realize that he actually did put up the emails - here’s what he posted if you want to judge his framing of the situation based on that.
posted by atoxyl at 5:46 PM on October 29, 2020 [3 favorites]
I didn’t realize that he actually did put up the emails - here’s what he posted if you want to judge his framing of the situation based on that.
posted by atoxyl at 5:46 PM on October 29, 2020 [3 favorites]
All the true free speech warriors I know run headlong into the warm embrace of a swastika-patterned boat shoe whenever mean things are said about them on the Twitter.
posted by tonycpsu at 5:53 PM on October 29, 2020 [25 favorites]
posted by tonycpsu at 5:53 PM on October 29, 2020 [25 favorites]
Matt Taibbi's take on Greenwald's resignation:
The Intercept and many media outlets have gotten turned around by the Trump phenomenon. It’s a difficult time for reporters, with an unstable and potentially dangerous president. Some have been convinced to change the way they used to do business, to make sure they are not accused of having helped such a person get elected.posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 5:55 PM on October 29, 2020 [8 favorites]
Many in the press have therefore talked themselves into the proposition that questioning things like the Trump-Russia collusion theory, or the reflexive dismissal of adverse information about politicians like Biden as foreign disinformation, can have no purpose beyond pro-Trump partisanship. In service of this, they’ve surrendered their own traditional roles as questioners and arbiters of fact, giving that power over to the same people and institutions whose poor performance, record of deception, and corruption helped inspire voters to make such a desperate choice in Trump in the first place.
...
A few years ago, reporters had the intelligence community on the defensive. Now, reporters are ratting each other out on their behalf, with the aim of creating an absolute political monoculture. Having pushed out one of journalism’s most accomplished members, they’ve nearly succeeded.
It's hard to believe that Greenwald managed to form contracts with the Intercept and the Guardian where his writing was mostly exempt from editorial scrutiny. The credibility he developed early on allowed him to fail upwards to an incredible degree. The feedback from Peter Maas that Greenwald posted on his Substack is very cogent, and Greenwald's response is arrogant and belligerent and exhibits issues with basic reading comprehension, such as in the section where he compares his draft to Maas's feedback. I'm close with several (Canadian) editors and Greenwald so perfectly fits an archetype they frequently talk about, of an entitled older white man who can't handle editorial feedback, that editors across the world must be doing the living equivalent of rolling over in their graves over this email exchange.
posted by Dr. Send at 6:01 PM on October 29, 2020 [21 favorites]
posted by Dr. Send at 6:01 PM on October 29, 2020 [21 favorites]
Once you start providing cover for Tucker Carlson, one of the world's premier white nationalists, you can just go fuck yourself
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:02 PM on October 29, 2020 [42 favorites]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 6:02 PM on October 29, 2020 [42 favorites]
Ugh, wow that Taibbi clip is embarrassing.
posted by notyou at 6:05 PM on October 29, 2020 [13 favorites]
posted by notyou at 6:05 PM on October 29, 2020 [13 favorites]
All the true free speech warriors I know run headlong into the warm embrace of a swastika-patterned boat shoe whenever mean things are said about them on the Twitter.
It happens so often it's become a cliché.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:06 PM on October 29, 2020 [7 favorites]
It happens so often it's become a cliché.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:06 PM on October 29, 2020 [7 favorites]
Oh you mean Matt Taibbi, sexual abuser?
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 6:43 PM on October 29, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by See you tomorrow, saguaro at 6:43 PM on October 29, 2020 [12 favorites]
A Matt Taibbi piece in support of Glenn Greenwald is like a Ted Bundy piece in support of John Wayne Gacy.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:43 PM on October 29, 2020 [36 favorites]
posted by soundguy99 at 6:43 PM on October 29, 2020 [36 favorites]
I can't stop laughing looking at this screenshot.
posted by octothorpe at 6:51 PM on October 29, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 6:51 PM on October 29, 2020 [3 favorites]
I'm surprised that some of the same people who seem upset that "the media" hasn't covered the Hunter Biden laptop story in greater detail never once reported on the allegations that Glenn Beck murdered and raped a young girl in 1990.
posted by Slothrup at 6:53 PM on October 29, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by Slothrup at 6:53 PM on October 29, 2020 [11 favorites]
Twitter thread from Parker Molloy (editor-at-large from Media Matters, so not exactly a neophyte at this whole writing/editing/analyzing media thing): "It’s amazing that Greenwald thinks that releasing the email conversation he had with editors makes him look good."
posted by soundguy99 at 7:05 PM on October 29, 2020 [21 favorites]
posted by soundguy99 at 7:05 PM on October 29, 2020 [21 favorites]
Many in the press have therefore talked themselves into the proposition that questioning things like the Trump-Russia collusion theory, or the reflexive dismissal of adverse information about politicians like Biden as foreign disinformation, can have no purpose beyond pro-Trump partisanship. In service of this, they’ve surrendered their own traditional roles as questioners and arbiters of fact
There are certainly any number of criticisms with which to target Trump that go well beyond what's been substantiated about Russian collusion, so personally I'm willing to entertain purpose beyond pro-Trump partisanship the minute someone puts out, say, a deconstruction of the Trump-Russia collusion theory that even starts to look like it makes sense, or a criticism of Biden that does too.
But since it apparently escapes the likes of Taibbi, it's worth noting that whatever ostensibly vaunted purpose might be behind "questioning" that theory would be easily pressed into the service of pro-Trump partisanship, in some cases to the point of being functionally indistinguishable, so yeah, people are going to ask you cold hard questions that you can't just be a gadfly about answering. If you think you've got a challenge that has more substance to it than what's already been established regarding Russian collusion, by all means, tell the world, but if you're "just asking questions", find some other pretense for indulging your empty adolescent contrarianism unless you wanna wear it like a blazing scarlet letter across your forehead for the rest of your life.
posted by wildblueyonder at 7:12 PM on October 29, 2020 [16 favorites]
There are certainly any number of criticisms with which to target Trump that go well beyond what's been substantiated about Russian collusion, so personally I'm willing to entertain purpose beyond pro-Trump partisanship the minute someone puts out, say, a deconstruction of the Trump-Russia collusion theory that even starts to look like it makes sense, or a criticism of Biden that does too.
But since it apparently escapes the likes of Taibbi, it's worth noting that whatever ostensibly vaunted purpose might be behind "questioning" that theory would be easily pressed into the service of pro-Trump partisanship, in some cases to the point of being functionally indistinguishable, so yeah, people are going to ask you cold hard questions that you can't just be a gadfly about answering. If you think you've got a challenge that has more substance to it than what's already been established regarding Russian collusion, by all means, tell the world, but if you're "just asking questions", find some other pretense for indulging your empty adolescent contrarianism unless you wanna wear it like a blazing scarlet letter across your forehead for the rest of your life.
posted by wildblueyonder at 7:12 PM on October 29, 2020 [16 favorites]
Greenwald is probably not a Russian asset, he just has a weird and not particularly useful definition of imperial oppression that includes the United States but excludes most of the United States' enemies, many of whom are very keen to be oppressive themselves but don't have the institutional power. I assign most of the credit for the Snowden story to Laura Poitras, and it shames me to realise only now that she's been involved with The Intercept which is why she hasn't been making films. (That high opinion of her was cemented when she went in to do a soft-focus piece on Julian Assange and realised she needed to be way more critical once she actually looked at the footage.)
If you are looking for Russian assets among ostensibly left-leaning journalists, I'd go for Matt Taibbi every time
posted by Merus at 7:22 PM on October 29, 2020 [10 favorites]
If you are looking for Russian assets among ostensibly left-leaning journalists, I'd go for Matt Taibbi every time
posted by Merus at 7:22 PM on October 29, 2020 [10 favorites]
soundguy99: "Twitter thread from Parker Molloy (editor-at-large from Media Matters, so not exactly a neophyte at this whole writing/editing/analyzing media thing): "It’s amazing that Greenwald thinks that releasing the email conversation he had with editors makes him look good.""
They make his editors look like ethical journalists who are actually trying to protect him and keep him from burning down what was left of his credibility.
posted by octothorpe at 7:23 PM on October 29, 2020 [17 favorites]
They make his editors look like ethical journalists who are actually trying to protect him and keep him from burning down what was left of his credibility.
posted by octothorpe at 7:23 PM on October 29, 2020 [17 favorites]
At this point it'd be far more humiliating for Greenwald if he weren't a Russian asset.
Yes I stole this but I don't care.
posted by Justinian at 7:32 PM on October 29, 2020 [12 favorites]
Yes I stole this but I don't care.
posted by Justinian at 7:32 PM on October 29, 2020 [12 favorites]
Greenwald is probably not a Russian asset, he just has a weird and not particularly useful definition of imperial oppression that includes the United States but excludes most of the United States' enemies, many of whom are very keen to be oppressive themselves but don't have the institutional power.
I don’t think it’s hard to argue that this isn’t such a weird definition at all - c.f. similar arguments about institutional racism.
I think Glenn’s problem is more that he’s a blowhard who has to constantly be the iconoclastic media underdog - which, I gotta say, comes across in his emails.
posted by atoxyl at 7:35 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
I don’t think it’s hard to argue that this isn’t such a weird definition at all - c.f. similar arguments about institutional racism.
I think Glenn’s problem is more that he’s a blowhard who has to constantly be the iconoclastic media underdog - which, I gotta say, comes across in his emails.
posted by atoxyl at 7:35 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
For real though the faceblind laptop repair guy story is some Jacob-Wohl-level goofball shit and anyone promoting it is either an incredible dumbass or a liar
If I were conspiricizing I would guess that the Russians hacked Hunter's email and made it available to Giuliani. But Russians hacking Democrats for Trump isn't a particularly flattering story (that whole collusion thing) so they just ginned up this phony backstory.
(The vice-president's son in Ukraine -- I find it hard to believe that the Russians didn't monitor his every email and phone call.)
posted by JackFlash at 8:04 PM on October 29, 2020 [1 favorite]
If I were conspiricizing I would guess that the Russians hacked Hunter's email and made it available to Giuliani. But Russians hacking Democrats for Trump isn't a particularly flattering story (that whole collusion thing) so they just ginned up this phony backstory.
(The vice-president's son in Ukraine -- I find it hard to believe that the Russians didn't monitor his every email and phone call.)
posted by JackFlash at 8:04 PM on October 29, 2020 [1 favorite]
Unfortunately, I think he might be planning something with Bari Weiss (he mentioned he was getting closer to her on his recent appearance on Joe Rogan). Not the direction that I would like him to go, given my extremely low opinion of her, and extremely high opinion of him, but c'est la vie.
I'm going back through Greenwald's articles at the Intercept, it's interesting to hear he's "getting closer" to Weiss. In 2018 he had this to say:
posted by muddgirl at 8:07 PM on October 29, 2020 [7 favorites]
I'm going back through Greenwald's articles at the Intercept, it's interesting to hear he's "getting closer" to Weiss. In 2018 he had this to say:
But what seems far more likely is that, like so many people, Weiss finds censorship and vilification objectionable only when it’s directed at her, her friends, and the viewpoints she supports.Hm.
posted by muddgirl at 8:07 PM on October 29, 2020 [7 favorites]
If I were conspiricizing I would guess that the Russians hacked Hunter's email and made it available to Giuliani
I don't think this is a conspiracy; this is just the Occam's Razor explanation of what really happened. The laptop repair story makes zero sense on ten different levels, but the Russians hacking someone's email and laundering it through Giuliani makes perfect sense.
If I had to guess, the emails are 100% real, because a) either Biden could have plausibly denied their authenticity by now, and b) they're not at all incriminating -- if you were going to all the trouble to fake up some emails like this, you would write one that clearly spelled out something corrupt, but all they have are sideways glancing blows at best, and nothing that could be straightforwardly explained in a New York Times subheadline.
posted by 0xFCAF at 8:07 PM on October 29, 2020 [6 favorites]
I don't think this is a conspiracy; this is just the Occam's Razor explanation of what really happened. The laptop repair story makes zero sense on ten different levels, but the Russians hacking someone's email and laundering it through Giuliani makes perfect sense.
If I had to guess, the emails are 100% real, because a) either Biden could have plausibly denied their authenticity by now, and b) they're not at all incriminating -- if you were going to all the trouble to fake up some emails like this, you would write one that clearly spelled out something corrupt, but all they have are sideways glancing blows at best, and nothing that could be straightforwardly explained in a New York Times subheadline.
posted by 0xFCAF at 8:07 PM on October 29, 2020 [6 favorites]
The evidence that Glenn Greenwald is a Russian asset is, as of yet, unverified. But it's awfully peculiar that the 'mainstream' media outlets aren't willing to report on whether he is or not. After all, if Glenn Greenwald weren't a Russian asset, would he not have come out and denied it by now? His silence on the matter speaks volumes. Here we sit with dozens of claims that he is a Russian asset by independent sources on Internet forums and multiple articles written by Greenwald himself that would seem to corroborate such an assertion--not proof, to be sure, but I'm just asking questions here, right?--and yet no one in the corporate media is willing to ask the tough questions. While I haven't personally verified the documentation brought forward by the personal lawyer of Greenwald's most outspoken opponent and the insurance salesman from Buffalo who once roomed with Greenwald in law school, the fact that he hasn't explicitly denied that one of those documents is true strongly intimates that all of these documents are credible, even the ones that FedEx lost in the mail, and some of the ones I also had on my harddrive but were overwritten under suspicious circumstances by my Twitter app just when I was trying to post cat memes in support of Michael Flynn.
...
Basically Glenn Greenwald's argument. I'm not literally suggesting he's a Russian asset, but I definitely am suggesting he has zero credibility here.
posted by Room 101 at 8:13 PM on October 29, 2020 [42 favorites]
...
Basically Glenn Greenwald's argument. I'm not literally suggesting he's a Russian asset, but I definitely am suggesting he has zero credibility here.
posted by Room 101 at 8:13 PM on October 29, 2020 [42 favorites]
I've been wondering about the right's obsession with hacked emails. Is putting together some nice Swiftboat-style attack ads too much work? But emails have the benefit of not having to actually put together any kind of story that can be falsified. I was going to say it's cheaper but apparently these emails + the alleged sex tape were being shopped around for $5 million.
posted by muddgirl at 8:14 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 8:14 PM on October 29, 2020 [4 favorites]
If I had to guess, the emails are 100% real
Worth remembering that the e-mails could be 95% real. Or perhaps 100% real now, and 20% fake later. You hack some real e-mails, sprinkle in some more damning ones and watch Biden twist trying to selectively deny things.
posted by mark k at 8:16 PM on October 29, 2020 [10 favorites]
Worth remembering that the e-mails could be 95% real. Or perhaps 100% real now, and 20% fake later. You hack some real e-mails, sprinkle in some more damning ones and watch Biden twist trying to selectively deny things.
posted by mark k at 8:16 PM on October 29, 2020 [10 favorites]
We stan Glenn here in Brazil. He faced death threats (in a country where they are routinely carried out) to take a stand against fascism when we needed it most. The Vaza Jato leak that he reported on (tl;dr: proved that Lula was framed) was the first major constitutional challenge of the Bolsonaro regime, and our Constitution prevailed.
He is a free speech and free press absolutist, and also a commited contrarian – a professional pain in the ass. Yeah, it is inconvenient for the left wing when he criticizes frankly shitty candidates like Clinton and Biden or appears on right-wing talk shows. But that just makes his position stronger; the fascists were unable to dismiss him as "just another dirty commie" in his deposition in Congress. Even though he's married to a socialist representative.
And that deposition was fucking epic. 6+ hours (part 1, part 2). He stared down the fascists and straight up told them to get fucked, that he was not afraid of them because the Constitution was on his side. Maybe it doesn't sound like such a big deal for you USians, all spoiled by your strong institutions, but for us it was just fucking epic. This is me carrying my sign in the street protests that followed. I still have that sign and still stand by its message. We're lucky to have him.
And the "Russian asset" talk is just ridiculous bullshit.
posted by Tom-B at 8:27 PM on October 29, 2020 [27 favorites]
He is a free speech and free press absolutist, and also a commited contrarian – a professional pain in the ass. Yeah, it is inconvenient for the left wing when he criticizes frankly shitty candidates like Clinton and Biden or appears on right-wing talk shows. But that just makes his position stronger; the fascists were unable to dismiss him as "just another dirty commie" in his deposition in Congress. Even though he's married to a socialist representative.
And that deposition was fucking epic. 6+ hours (part 1, part 2). He stared down the fascists and straight up told them to get fucked, that he was not afraid of them because the Constitution was on his side. Maybe it doesn't sound like such a big deal for you USians, all spoiled by your strong institutions, but for us it was just fucking epic. This is me carrying my sign in the street protests that followed. I still have that sign and still stand by its message. We're lucky to have him.
Greve_Geral_031_Romerito_Pontes.jpg){kind=link}
And the "Russian asset" talk is just ridiculous bullshit.
posted by Tom-B at 8:27 PM on October 29, 2020 [27 favorites]
I agree that he is the kind of contrarian who is convenient to have on your side and annoying when he is wrong, as he has been wrong about Trump, who he has continually portrayed as essentially harmless compared to the all-powerful Democrats and the US CIA (who believe it or not report to Trump as the commander in chief).
posted by muddgirl at 8:40 PM on October 29, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 8:40 PM on October 29, 2020 [5 favorites]
People on MeFi aren't upset that he criticizes Biden. He's an anti-anti-Trumper. His hatred for Biden and Clinton is so visceral that he invests a lot of time (falsely) saying things like Trump is being unfairly criticized or there was nothing to the Russia charges. He's so overcommitted on this he feels he can concede nothing against Trump.
So yeah, in a tight election and facing the threat of fascism in our own country, that "both sides are the same" bullshit isn't going to win friends. Good that he's not acting like that in Brazil but hopefully you'll allow us to care about our own situation too?
You can find plenty of Biden criticism in, say, the Nation and writers for them like Jeet Heer who are really snarky on the centrist Dems on Twitter. Hell, even a centrist (well, center-left) haven Vox has people like that. No one cares because there's no question of them being Trump enablers.
posted by mark k at 9:21 PM on October 29, 2020 [38 favorites]
So yeah, in a tight election and facing the threat of fascism in our own country, that "both sides are the same" bullshit isn't going to win friends. Good that he's not acting like that in Brazil but hopefully you'll allow us to care about our own situation too?
You can find plenty of Biden criticism in, say, the Nation and writers for them like Jeet Heer who are really snarky on the centrist Dems on Twitter. Hell, even a centrist (well, center-left) haven Vox has people like that. No one cares because there's no question of them being Trump enablers.
posted by mark k at 9:21 PM on October 29, 2020 [38 favorites]
Maybe we could, I dunno, celebrate Greenwald's principled efforts against fascism in Brazil while also criticizing his shameless propagandizing in support of fascism in the United States? Are we to not care about the veracity of his reporting because the candidates he attacks are "shitty"? Is it okay for someone who calls themselves a journalist to have completely different standards of evidence based on who the subject of the story is?
Your fave is problematic, even if he literally saved your country. Maybe read the goddamn room before saying it's okay that he regularly appears on a neo-Nazi's television program because it makes his position in your country stronger.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:22 PM on October 29, 2020 [35 favorites]
Your fave is problematic, even if he literally saved your country. Maybe read the goddamn room before saying it's okay that he regularly appears on a neo-Nazi's television program because it makes his position in your country stronger.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:22 PM on October 29, 2020 [35 favorites]
He didn't leave The Intercept over his opinion articles on Brazil, though. He left because of his apologism for Trump's incredibly thin October Surprise.
posted by muddgirl at 9:30 PM on October 29, 2020 [6 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 9:30 PM on October 29, 2020 [6 favorites]
Ugh sorry tonycpsu, I badly badly misread your comment. Time to log off for the night.
posted by muddgirl at 9:30 PM on October 29, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by muddgirl at 9:30 PM on October 29, 2020 [1 favorite]
Maybe it doesn't sound like such a big deal for you USians, all spoiled by your strong institutions
Only the last three years (arguably 12, since the election of our first Black president) have proven that our institutions are not nearly as strong as we thought they were, that they were mostly held up by "gentlemen's agreements" and are bending and breaking under the assault of America's Bolsonaro.
And Greenwald is an active participant in that bending and breaking.
Greenwald wants to stand in the street in the US and tell Trump he's not afraid because Constitution, great. He wants to be willfully ignorant and contrarian to the point of carrying water for the rising tide of populist fascism growing in the US by dismissing overwhelming evidence of the corruption of the Trump regime? Fuck him.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:35 PM on October 29, 2020 [45 favorites]
Only the last three years (arguably 12, since the election of our first Black president) have proven that our institutions are not nearly as strong as we thought they were, that they were mostly held up by "gentlemen's agreements" and are bending and breaking under the assault of America's Bolsonaro.
And Greenwald is an active participant in that bending and breaking.
Greenwald wants to stand in the street in the US and tell Trump he's not afraid because Constitution, great. He wants to be willfully ignorant and contrarian to the point of carrying water for the rising tide of populist fascism growing in the US by dismissing overwhelming evidence of the corruption of the Trump regime? Fuck him.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:35 PM on October 29, 2020 [45 favorites]
we're all confused these days
posted by philip-random at 10:49 PM on October 29, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by philip-random at 10:49 PM on October 29, 2020 [3 favorites]
I understand that the Left likes (liked?) Greenwald because of his work on the NSA with the Snowden leaks, but he has always been a right wing libertarian, just one that turned anti-interventionist after the Iraq War (which he initially supported) turned into a disaster - basically Pat Buchanan in Brazil.
posted by PenDevil at 11:58 PM on October 29, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by PenDevil at 11:58 PM on October 29, 2020 [3 favorites]
One aspect of the Greenwald/Intercept dispute that a lot of people seem to be glossing over is that this appears to be, from one angle, a contract dispute between Greenwald and his former employer. Specifically, he claims that his employment contract obligated the Intercept to publish his writings, save for very narrow exceptions around legally actionable material. He also claims he had a contractual right to take any story that the Intercept refused to publish and place it in another venue.
Exercising his rights under a contract isn't a "temper tantrum" -- it's an employee asserting his bargained-for rights against his employer. Now it's possible that Greenwald is exaggerating the contract terms, but somehow, I doubt it. This is because if he was doing that, I would expect that the Intercept's statement would have clearly staked out that ground. They didn't. So, I suspect at the very minimum, Greenwald has a cognizable claim for breach of contract against his former employer. I would be surprised if the contract didn't have an arbitration clause, obligating the parties to litigate in front of a private arbitrator under the laws of the State of New York. So the litigation costs might be reasonable enough, vice, a $50k/year legal bill. I suspect that the editors of the Intercept may have just decided that Greenwald is disruptive enough to their workplace that it's worth spending on litigation and settlement, in order to push him out of the picture.
posted by wuwei at 12:43 AM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
Exercising his rights under a contract isn't a "temper tantrum" -- it's an employee asserting his bargained-for rights against his employer. Now it's possible that Greenwald is exaggerating the contract terms, but somehow, I doubt it. This is because if he was doing that, I would expect that the Intercept's statement would have clearly staked out that ground. They didn't. So, I suspect at the very minimum, Greenwald has a cognizable claim for breach of contract against his former employer. I would be surprised if the contract didn't have an arbitration clause, obligating the parties to litigate in front of a private arbitrator under the laws of the State of New York. So the litigation costs might be reasonable enough, vice, a $50k/year legal bill. I suspect that the editors of the Intercept may have just decided that Greenwald is disruptive enough to their workplace that it's worth spending on litigation and settlement, in order to push him out of the picture.
posted by wuwei at 12:43 AM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
He also claims he had a contractual right to take any story that the Intercept refused to publish and place it in another venue.
In the emails that Greenwald posted his EIC Betsy Reed never says he can't do that but that:
"It would be unfortunate and detrimental to The Intercept for this story to be published elsewhere."
posted by PenDevil at 12:53 AM on October 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
In the emails that Greenwald posted his EIC Betsy Reed never says he can't do that but that:
"It would be unfortunate and detrimental to The Intercept for this story to be published elsewhere."
posted by PenDevil at 12:53 AM on October 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
Exercising his rights under a contract isn't a "temper tantrum" -- it's an employee asserting his bargained-for rights against his employer.
It can very easily be both.
posted by JHarris at 1:16 AM on October 30, 2020 [8 favorites]
It can very easily be both.
posted by JHarris at 1:16 AM on October 30, 2020 [8 favorites]
The NYTimes piece has Greenwald strongly claiming the contract allowing unedited publication of opinion pieces. I do not see why a journalist would lie about that. There's not enough information at this time, and people are digging up praiseworthy and unpraiseworthy history of an individual in an attempt to extrapolate from the current dispute.
And for the Editor to claim that the nature of disagreement stems from Greenwald believing that all editing is censorship... How is that not a prima facie straw argument. This is just neoliberals traumatizing leftists every time with the dogwhistle-canard that leftists are accused and framed of perceiving every act of authority as oppression. It isn't proof of the EIC understanding the nature of the conflict, it's proof that the EIC is a neoliberal with a poor understanding of leftist arguments.
I've thought that the horseshoe theory is itself a neoliberal canard. Two points separated by a finite distance look like they converge, if the vantage point is infinitely far away. It is centrists who are the purest extremists, so goes the argument.
posted by polymodus at 2:12 AM on October 30, 2020 [3 favorites]
And for the Editor to claim that the nature of disagreement stems from Greenwald believing that all editing is censorship... How is that not a prima facie straw argument. This is just neoliberals traumatizing leftists every time with the dogwhistle-canard that leftists are accused and framed of perceiving every act of authority as oppression. It isn't proof of the EIC understanding the nature of the conflict, it's proof that the EIC is a neoliberal with a poor understanding of leftist arguments.
I've thought that the horseshoe theory is itself a neoliberal canard. Two points separated by a finite distance look like they converge, if the vantage point is infinitely far away. It is centrists who are the purest extremists, so goes the argument.
posted by polymodus at 2:12 AM on October 30, 2020 [3 favorites]
Is it true that there is a pervasive culture of just-about-legal corruption in the American political system? Sure it is. That includes getting paid an enormous quantity of money for after-dinner speeches, and it certainly includes someone of no real accomplishment or talent getting paid $50k / month to be on a board because he's the VP's son.
Are some of these emails authentic? We don't know. The chain of evidence and the people involved are extremely dubious. On the other hand, the base authenticity of *some* of the emails has not been denied. Quite possibly some of them are, some of them aren't. Or the way they got them isn't what they say. Or for that matter they're all authentic. Or 99.9% are authentic but 50 incriminating words were inserted into three emails. That way the authenticity is impossible to deny, many emails can be verified by third parties, but oops... the really bad ones were only between Hunter and Frank Luntz who mysteriously is able to authenticate that the altered text is actually the original.
Even if they are, the actual content as per GG's own draft article is all Hunter Biden playing up his status as Joe Biden's son (as he must know it is the only reason he's been hired) and nothing indicating that Joe Biden knows anything about any of this. His best evidence of actions taken by Joe is the pushing for the dismissal for a Ukrainian prosecutor and the fact that they accepted as a replacement someone else who wasn't really qualified. The only thing that proves is standard shitty US foreign policy.
Some people are upset about people in the media having decided that they will take a definite position on this and just not run with it. That the story is being supressed. You know what? Even if it's true, I'm glad. I'm tired of only side pretending to uphold standards and codes of conducts. If this is how the fuckers want to play, then ok, let's play it.
It is also comical that having pissed all over every kind of norm and value for four years, they now expect people to care about the low-grade corruption of Hunter Biden. Sorry, if people didn't care about Jared and Ivanka or about the blatant use of the presidency to drive business to Trump hotels, then they're not going to care about this.
posted by atrazine at 2:14 AM on October 30, 2020 [11 favorites]
Are some of these emails authentic? We don't know. The chain of evidence and the people involved are extremely dubious. On the other hand, the base authenticity of *some* of the emails has not been denied. Quite possibly some of them are, some of them aren't. Or the way they got them isn't what they say. Or for that matter they're all authentic. Or 99.9% are authentic but 50 incriminating words were inserted into three emails. That way the authenticity is impossible to deny, many emails can be verified by third parties, but oops... the really bad ones were only between Hunter and Frank Luntz who mysteriously is able to authenticate that the altered text is actually the original.
Even if they are, the actual content as per GG's own draft article is all Hunter Biden playing up his status as Joe Biden's son (as he must know it is the only reason he's been hired) and nothing indicating that Joe Biden knows anything about any of this. His best evidence of actions taken by Joe is the pushing for the dismissal for a Ukrainian prosecutor and the fact that they accepted as a replacement someone else who wasn't really qualified. The only thing that proves is standard shitty US foreign policy.
Some people are upset about people in the media having decided that they will take a definite position on this and just not run with it. That the story is being supressed. You know what? Even if it's true, I'm glad. I'm tired of only side pretending to uphold standards and codes of conducts. If this is how the fuckers want to play, then ok, let's play it.
It is also comical that having pissed all over every kind of norm and value for four years, they now expect people to care about the low-grade corruption of Hunter Biden. Sorry, if people didn't care about Jared and Ivanka or about the blatant use of the presidency to drive business to Trump hotels, then they're not going to care about this.
posted by atrazine at 2:14 AM on October 30, 2020 [11 favorites]
Taibbi with the most concise summary of this controversy: "The key fact of the Greenwald episode: the Intercept uncritically took dictation from John Brennan, Jim Clapper, and Michael Hayden, and killed a piece by their Pulitzer-winning founder because it was critical of the probable next president."
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:04 AM on October 30, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 4:04 AM on October 30, 2020 [5 favorites]
Standard shitty US foreign policy kills countless people, which is why people like Greenwald oppose it instead instead of just accepting and promoting it.
The lives of people of color outside America are generally worth very little to liberal Americans who claim to care about us because the cognitive dissonance of reckoning with the bipartisan white supremacy inherent in standard shitty US foreign policy is understandably too much to handle, especially when Trump's fascism makes it hard for them to think about anything else.
Hopefully journalists who aren't laden with Greenwald's baggage can continue this extremely important work.
posted by Ouverture at 4:21 AM on October 30, 2020 [9 favorites]
The lives of people of color outside America are generally worth very little to liberal Americans who claim to care about us because the cognitive dissonance of reckoning with the bipartisan white supremacy inherent in standard shitty US foreign policy is understandably too much to handle, especially when Trump's fascism makes it hard for them to think about anything else.
Hopefully journalists who aren't laden with Greenwald's baggage can continue this extremely important work.
posted by Ouverture at 4:21 AM on October 30, 2020 [9 favorites]
What sort of less heavy-handed rejection would be appropriate for a story with such flimsy sourcing, no forensic evidence, and a chain of custody for the laptop that starts with an "ardent Trump supporter" and includes Rudy fucking Giuliani?
If Trump's laptop was found by some random Democrat and then given to George Soros, who then passed it along to Rachel Maddow, who lost the contents in the mail... I would dismiss that story out of hand too. Because it is obviously bullshit.
posted by Meatbomb at 4:49 AM on October 30, 2020 [27 favorites]
If Trump's laptop was found by some random Democrat and then given to George Soros, who then passed it along to Rachel Maddow, who lost the contents in the mail... I would dismiss that story out of hand too. Because it is obviously bullshit.
posted by Meatbomb at 4:49 AM on October 30, 2020 [27 favorites]
Specifically, he claims that his employment contract obligated the Intercept to publish his writings, save for very narrow exceptions around legally actionable material.
If so, his email exchanges make no sense. He could have simply pointed to the provision in his contract and said “publish or I sue”. But he instead engaged in discussion about the content.
posted by schoolgirl report at 4:57 AM on October 30, 2020 [8 favorites]
If so, his email exchanges make no sense. He could have simply pointed to the provision in his contract and said “publish or I sue”. But he instead engaged in discussion about the content.
posted by schoolgirl report at 4:57 AM on October 30, 2020 [8 favorites]
and a dangerous Trump enabler in the States.
Journalism here is not seen as the force that keep in check élites,
Being a dangerous Trump enabler is in direct conflict with a mission of using journalism as a force to keep elites in check.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:09 AM on October 30, 2020 [14 favorites]
Journalism here is not seen as the force that keep in check élites,
Being a dangerous Trump enabler is in direct conflict with a mission of using journalism as a force to keep elites in check.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:09 AM on October 30, 2020 [14 favorites]
Only Democrats are "elites", doncha know that?
posted by octothorpe at 5:35 AM on October 30, 2020 [17 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 5:35 AM on October 30, 2020 [17 favorites]
Just like musician and actors who's actions outside of their artistic output have proven themselves to be worthy of disgust I think it becomes easy to separate the limited amount of good Glenn Greenwald has done as a journalist from the consistent damage he's done by providing cover for Trump and other conservatives by continually engaging in both bothsidisms and a willingness to lend credence towards constant attempts by conservatives to undermine Biden and other Democrats. That he cares more for the sketchy and poorly sourced Hunter Biden story rather than the consistently demonstrable level of crony capitalism that the Trump campaign and Trump administration have engaged in is laughable. Even if Hunter Biden has traded on his familial relationship to open doors otherwise closed to him it's nothing in comparison to the actions of the Trump family and the blatant pay for play that foreign nations engage in by staying in Trump properties in order to get favorable deals.
I can understand being skeptical that every little thing Trump does is at the behest of Putin when often enough the more likely explanation is venal self-dealing but Glenn being willing to cast doubt on any Russian tie regardless of the proof given has either indicated he is a stooge or he's more interested in harming centrist Democrats than reporting accurate information or a desperate attempt to maintain a degree of relevancy during the Trump reality show by attaching himself to conservative "journalists" like Tucker.
The reality is that the Intercept is increasingly irrelevant in the current media landscape and maybe getting it less associated with Greenwald's self-aggrandizing behavior might allow it to rebrand itself into a more positive journalistic outlet.
posted by vuron at 7:11 AM on October 30, 2020 [18 favorites]
I can understand being skeptical that every little thing Trump does is at the behest of Putin when often enough the more likely explanation is venal self-dealing but Glenn being willing to cast doubt on any Russian tie regardless of the proof given has either indicated he is a stooge or he's more interested in harming centrist Democrats than reporting accurate information or a desperate attempt to maintain a degree of relevancy during the Trump reality show by attaching himself to conservative "journalists" like Tucker.
The reality is that the Intercept is increasingly irrelevant in the current media landscape and maybe getting it less associated with Greenwald's self-aggrandizing behavior might allow it to rebrand itself into a more positive journalistic outlet.
posted by vuron at 7:11 AM on October 30, 2020 [18 favorites]
Glen Greenwald reminds me of so many former Mefites who have rage quit the community over the years after one of their comments or posts were deleted by the mods for being toxic garbage. I'm also reminded of the larger arc of these folks coming to the community in his case progressive/left and being welcomed and even praised for thought provoking stuff; but then growing increasingly toxic when it seems like they are more interested in shitting on our allies and calling them fascists instead of confronting actual fascists. And once they leave or are kicked out they run over to right wing places and trash our community. In Glen's case he ran to Tucker Carlsen to get his story out.
posted by interogative mood at 7:35 AM on October 30, 2020 [19 favorites]
posted by interogative mood at 7:35 AM on October 30, 2020 [19 favorites]
The thing is that Glenn doesn't even seem like a pox on both of their houses type "progressive" who is really just let's burn it to ashes and start over type like so many of those aforementioned Mefites were. He just seems like he's 99% ego driven and knows that he can achieve more media attention by playing the token liberal journalist on a right wing infotainment show. I heartily disagree with anyone taking the stance of creating a false equivalency between the corporatism of the mainstream Democratic party and the authoritarian corporatism of the current Republican party after all life has been demonstrably worse for some out groups in our country under Trump.
Glenn is insulated from the negative consequences of the water he carries for Trump. Yes he has resigned from the Intercept but he's not hurting for money and will be able to get along quite well doing appearances on Fox and company. Hell he might even parley is contrarianism into a Fox show if they choose to rebrand to a less Trumpist viewpoint in response to a likely Trump election loss. Giving a supposed liberal a soapbox to lambast Biden and company as authoritarian and corporatist while being willing to tolerate much worse from Republicans is just the sort of thing the Murdoch organization would be more than willing to do. In the end he is that he's a member of that selfsame Elite that he and Tucker are so fond of railing against in a faux attempt to appear populist.
posted by vuron at 7:51 AM on October 30, 2020 [10 favorites]
Glenn is insulated from the negative consequences of the water he carries for Trump. Yes he has resigned from the Intercept but he's not hurting for money and will be able to get along quite well doing appearances on Fox and company. Hell he might even parley is contrarianism into a Fox show if they choose to rebrand to a less Trumpist viewpoint in response to a likely Trump election loss. Giving a supposed liberal a soapbox to lambast Biden and company as authoritarian and corporatist while being willing to tolerate much worse from Republicans is just the sort of thing the Murdoch organization would be more than willing to do. In the end he is that he's a member of that selfsame Elite that he and Tucker are so fond of railing against in a faux attempt to appear populist.
posted by vuron at 7:51 AM on October 30, 2020 [10 favorites]
So basically here Greenwald he is on a trial for his personality, "temper tantrum", contrarianism and what not... And what he has to say, it is not even considered at all, dismissed as Russian propaganda, etc.
From what I gather what he "has to say," the whole Hunter Biden thing, is seriously weak sauce, and he was mad that he couldn't get it out unfettered. There is a good chance it is propaganda, judging from sources entirely unrelated to Greenwald.
Standard shitty US foreign policy kills countless people, which is why people like Greenwald oppose it instead instead of just accepting and promoting it.
A lot of those "people like Greenwald" aren't pushing the stupid Hunter Biden story, aka Benghazi 2.0. It is such a non-story that it is obvious anyone pushing it is obviously either a raving right-winger or has an ulterior motive.
Taibbi with the most concise summary of this controversy
Yeah, and Taibbi has his own problems.
Schrödinger Greenwald can be both a committed and principled journalist in Brazil, against a very autocratic Bolsonaro, and a dangerous Trump enabler in the States.
He absolutely can be! People contain multitudes, and the filter of context reveals many hues.
posted by JHarris at 7:58 AM on October 30, 2020 [22 favorites]
From what I gather what he "has to say," the whole Hunter Biden thing, is seriously weak sauce, and he was mad that he couldn't get it out unfettered. There is a good chance it is propaganda, judging from sources entirely unrelated to Greenwald.
Standard shitty US foreign policy kills countless people, which is why people like Greenwald oppose it instead instead of just accepting and promoting it.
A lot of those "people like Greenwald" aren't pushing the stupid Hunter Biden story, aka Benghazi 2.0. It is such a non-story that it is obvious anyone pushing it is obviously either a raving right-winger or has an ulterior motive.
Taibbi with the most concise summary of this controversy
Yeah, and Taibbi has his own problems.
Schrödinger Greenwald can be both a committed and principled journalist in Brazil, against a very autocratic Bolsonaro, and a dangerous Trump enabler in the States.
He absolutely can be! People contain multitudes, and the filter of context reveals many hues.
posted by JHarris at 7:58 AM on October 30, 2020 [22 favorites]
I must not understand this whole "censorship" thing because I just read Greenwald's article with my own two eyes.
posted by JackFlash at 8:17 AM on October 30, 2020 [23 favorites]
posted by JackFlash at 8:17 AM on October 30, 2020 [23 favorites]
It is also comical that having pissed all over every kind of norm and value for four years, they now expect people to care about the low-grade corruption of Hunter Biden.
Right, putsching Ukraine and then installing your wholly unqualified, ne'er-do-well son is just a little light corruption. Upstanding, really, totally above-board. It's staggering what we accept as long as it goes through the proper channels and it's no wonder the establishment is suffering a legitimacy crisis.
As to Greenwald, I've listened to some of the (3+ hours!) conversation with Joe Rogan, linked by philip-random above. He's super-stimulated, at times he's just ranting really, not quite as unhinged as Alex Jones, but perhaps in its fanatical humorlessness even more disturbing. Very Manichean. While Greenwald is in the middle of a rant about freedom of speech and Truth, YouTube interrupts him to show me an ad for the jawzrsize, a rubber doodad you can put in your mouth and chew on, to get a stronger jawline. I don't think he's in good company. I don't think he's very good company himself, and I think he resents it that people don't sufficiently adore him. I don't think he wants to see Trump win, or Biden lose for that matter. I think he wants Greenwald to win.
posted by dmh at 8:26 AM on October 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
Right, putsching Ukraine and then installing your wholly unqualified, ne'er-do-well son is just a little light corruption. Upstanding, really, totally above-board. It's staggering what we accept as long as it goes through the proper channels and it's no wonder the establishment is suffering a legitimacy crisis.
As to Greenwald, I've listened to some of the (3+ hours!) conversation with Joe Rogan, linked by philip-random above. He's super-stimulated, at times he's just ranting really, not quite as unhinged as Alex Jones, but perhaps in its fanatical humorlessness even more disturbing. Very Manichean. While Greenwald is in the middle of a rant about freedom of speech and Truth, YouTube interrupts him to show me an ad for the jawzrsize, a rubber doodad you can put in your mouth and chew on, to get a stronger jawline. I don't think he's in good company. I don't think he's very good company himself, and I think he resents it that people don't sufficiently adore him. I don't think he wants to see Trump win, or Biden lose for that matter. I think he wants Greenwald to win.
posted by dmh at 8:26 AM on October 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
That's an absurd characterization of what happened in Ukraine but I just can't even with this anymore. Life's too short.
posted by Justinian at 8:31 AM on October 30, 2020 [40 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 8:31 AM on October 30, 2020 [40 favorites]
Right, putsching Ukraine and then installing your wholly unqualified, ne'er-do-well son is just a little light corruption. Upstanding, really, totally above-board. It's staggering what we accept as long as it goes through the proper channels and it's no wonder the establishment is suffering a legitimacy crisis.
I am really going to need someone to connect the dots for me on what exactly Joe did here to "Install" his son into anything. Rather than Hunter just trading on his name like every single one of the Trumps do....
posted by Gyre,Gimble,Wabe, Esq. at 8:33 AM on October 30, 2020 [22 favorites]
I am really going to need someone to connect the dots for me on what exactly Joe did here to "Install" his son into anything. Rather than Hunter just trading on his name like every single one of the Trumps do....
posted by Gyre,Gimble,Wabe, Esq. at 8:33 AM on October 30, 2020 [22 favorites]
Is it going to be a "putsch" when the voters of this country throw out their own pro-Russian wannabe dictator on Tuesday (TTTCS)?
posted by Gelatin at 8:36 AM on October 30, 2020 [10 favorites]
posted by Gelatin at 8:36 AM on October 30, 2020 [10 favorites]
I first remember reading GG in Salon about 20 years ago. He seemed like a standard left-libertarian. I disagreed with an article he wrote about the constitutionality of campaign finance laws. Over the years he's struck me as a typical contrarian iconoclast whose great when he's arguing for your "side" but enraging when he's arguing against you. In the waning years of the Bush administration practically everyone was on the same side against Bush II and the Iraq War, so such rough edges didn't stick out as much.
Then again, the fact that Bush II and the Iraq War enablers could be so quickly readmitted to polite liberal society and mainstream liberal media organs like MSNBC to me demonstrates the necessity of such figures. What separates Greenwald from other web 1.0 Slate style contrarians is that he genuinely has stood up to powerful and dangerous figures at great personal risk to himself. That's more than I can say for many of the keyboard warriors condemning him. No, binge watching MSNBC and late political comedy shows while cheering on agents of the American state like the FBI and NSA to take down Trump doesn't count.
Still, its disappointing that while Greenwald publicly opposed fascists at great personal risk in his home country he consorts with them in the US. I suppose one can chalk that up to disengagement with US political culture, blind spots related to race/ethnicity in the US, ego, or opportunism. Personally, I suspect its a combination of the four.
Nevertheless, if I didn't consume media or consider viewpoints from sources with such blindspots and vices, I would be staring at blank pages and a blank computer screen my entire life. After all, the US "paper of record", the New York Times, played a role in promoting false intelligence about Iraqi WMDs to sell the Iraq War and publishes racists on their editorial page. MSNBC happily accepts input from criminals who lied to push the US to the Iraq War because they are now "against Trump".
That's not to excuse Greenwald, or anyone really, but merely to point out the need to consider sources from all angles to form a full picture in the fragmented, polarized, and commercialized media environment of today. Then again, perhaps its naive to expect any single information source or viewpoint to have unproblematic access to "the truth".
And personally I have no doubt that there is "truth" to what Greenwald claims about the Bidens, just like it is true that the Trumps have shady connections to all sorts of foreign actors. I think its clear that there is a pervasive culture of influence peddling and barely legal bribery that exists across and between political parties, economic elites, and national governments. The Biden story honestly seems like an insignificant hill to die on in the grand scheme of things. The question is what bothers you more: the existence of such corruption that ultimately harms you, your family, other humans, and the planet, or the assholes who point out the inconvenient truth that it exists.
posted by eagles123 at 8:57 AM on October 30, 2020 [8 favorites]
Then again, the fact that Bush II and the Iraq War enablers could be so quickly readmitted to polite liberal society and mainstream liberal media organs like MSNBC to me demonstrates the necessity of such figures. What separates Greenwald from other web 1.0 Slate style contrarians is that he genuinely has stood up to powerful and dangerous figures at great personal risk to himself. That's more than I can say for many of the keyboard warriors condemning him. No, binge watching MSNBC and late political comedy shows while cheering on agents of the American state like the FBI and NSA to take down Trump doesn't count.
Still, its disappointing that while Greenwald publicly opposed fascists at great personal risk in his home country he consorts with them in the US. I suppose one can chalk that up to disengagement with US political culture, blind spots related to race/ethnicity in the US, ego, or opportunism. Personally, I suspect its a combination of the four.
Nevertheless, if I didn't consume media or consider viewpoints from sources with such blindspots and vices, I would be staring at blank pages and a blank computer screen my entire life. After all, the US "paper of record", the New York Times, played a role in promoting false intelligence about Iraqi WMDs to sell the Iraq War and publishes racists on their editorial page. MSNBC happily accepts input from criminals who lied to push the US to the Iraq War because they are now "against Trump".
That's not to excuse Greenwald, or anyone really, but merely to point out the need to consider sources from all angles to form a full picture in the fragmented, polarized, and commercialized media environment of today. Then again, perhaps its naive to expect any single information source or viewpoint to have unproblematic access to "the truth".
And personally I have no doubt that there is "truth" to what Greenwald claims about the Bidens, just like it is true that the Trumps have shady connections to all sorts of foreign actors. I think its clear that there is a pervasive culture of influence peddling and barely legal bribery that exists across and between political parties, economic elites, and national governments. The Biden story honestly seems like an insignificant hill to die on in the grand scheme of things. The question is what bothers you more: the existence of such corruption that ultimately harms you, your family, other humans, and the planet, or the assholes who point out the inconvenient truth that it exists.
posted by eagles123 at 8:57 AM on October 30, 2020 [8 favorites]
Beyond that I'm confused as to what Joe Biden was supposed to do to *stop* his son from trading on the Biden name to get a job. I had the same question when Hillary Clinton's mooch brother was trotted out in 2016. Trump's active nepotism is somehow better, why?
posted by muddgirl at 8:58 AM on October 30, 2020 [16 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 8:58 AM on October 30, 2020 [16 favorites]
and killed a piece by their Pulitzer-winning founder because it was critical of the probable next president."
to which I'd add with emphasis ... "mere days before the election. Which makes it naive to think that the piece wouldn't impact the results. Because THE SAME THING HAPPENED LAST TIME WITH A LAST MINUTE DECISION ON THE PART OF FBI DIRECTOR JAMES COMEY TO RE-INVESTIGATE HILARY CLINTON'S EMAILS ... and it's entirely possible that this single decision handed the presidency to Donald Trump."
sorry for shouting
posted by philip-random at 9:04 AM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
to which I'd add with emphasis ... "mere days before the election. Which makes it naive to think that the piece wouldn't impact the results. Because THE SAME THING HAPPENED LAST TIME WITH A LAST MINUTE DECISION ON THE PART OF FBI DIRECTOR JAMES COMEY TO RE-INVESTIGATE HILARY CLINTON'S EMAILS ... and it's entirely possible that this single decision handed the presidency to Donald Trump."
sorry for shouting
posted by philip-random at 9:04 AM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
> That's not to excuse Greenwald, or anyone really, but merely to point out the need to consider sources from all angles to form a full picture in the fragmented, polarized, and commercialized media environment of today. Then again, perhaps its naive to expect any single information source or viewpoint to have unproblematic access to "the truth".
Is there a shortage of people to read on the Internet who have many of Greenwald's virtues but few of his vices? I count several among the non-quitters at the Intercept, along with many more publishing at other outlets who cover many of the same topics with a similar anti-establishment bent without the martyr complex and on-again / off-again relationship with journalistic ethics.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:08 AM on October 30, 2020 [9 favorites]
Is there a shortage of people to read on the Internet who have many of Greenwald's virtues but few of his vices? I count several among the non-quitters at the Intercept, along with many more publishing at other outlets who cover many of the same topics with a similar anti-establishment bent without the martyr complex and on-again / off-again relationship with journalistic ethics.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:08 AM on October 30, 2020 [9 favorites]
Thanks to folks posting examples, the twitter thread was something I would not have found. What a marvelous confluence of conundrums, so much clear ambiguity. Would guess that there are unspoken issues within the staff of the Intercept weblog, unfortunately for the docudrama an editorial meltdown/argument over skype will be much less cine-graphic than the rough and tumble reporter in the newsroom getting called into the glass editors.
Had not noticed Greenwald on Tucker Carlson, just about any other spot on fox would be fine, but that does leave a bad taste. Just really, what the...
posted by sammyo at 9:10 AM on October 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
Had not noticed Greenwald on Tucker Carlson, just about any other spot on fox would be fine, but that does leave a bad taste. Just really, what the...
posted by sammyo at 9:10 AM on October 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
Amusingly, one of the documents that kicked off the whole right-wing Biden conspiracy train some months back has been shown to have been "authored" by a person that doesn't exist, with the actual author having been tracked down and admitting it. Wonder how many retractions we'll see. Any? None?
posted by aramaic at 9:17 AM on October 30, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 9:17 AM on October 30, 2020 [12 favorites]
So basically here Greenwald he is on a trial for his personality, "temper tantrum", contrarianism and what not... And what he has to say, it is not even considered at all, dismissed as Russian propaganda, etc.
So I see you still haven't read the emptywheel thread I asked about above. Or the Parker Molloy thread. Both of those threads are doing exactly what you declare "nobody" is doing - considering the content of what he is saying. And both emptywheel and his own editors (in the Molloy thread) have shown clearly where what he was actually trying to say was badly, badly flawed. Nobody forced Glenn Greenwald to write an article full of debunked lies and misleading "just asking questions" sophistry, and nobody forced him to ragequit when his editors wouldn't publish it without revisions.
posted by mstokes650 at 9:28 AM on October 30, 2020 [35 favorites]
So I see you still haven't read the emptywheel thread I asked about above. Or the Parker Molloy thread. Both of those threads are doing exactly what you declare "nobody" is doing - considering the content of what he is saying. And both emptywheel and his own editors (in the Molloy thread) have shown clearly where what he was actually trying to say was badly, badly flawed. Nobody forced Glenn Greenwald to write an article full of debunked lies and misleading "just asking questions" sophistry, and nobody forced him to ragequit when his editors wouldn't publish it without revisions.
posted by mstokes650 at 9:28 AM on October 30, 2020 [35 favorites]
How a fake persona laid the groundwork for a Hunter Biden conspiracy deluge
oops. aramaic beat me to it.
posted by No Robots at 9:42 AM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
oops. aramaic beat me to it.
posted by No Robots at 9:42 AM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
mere days before the election. Which makes it naive to think that the piece wouldn't impact the results. Because THE SAME THING HAPPENED LAST TIME
This may be a view from inside the bubble. It vastly over-estimates the influence of the Intercept. Less than one person in a thousand has ever even heard of the Intercept. They actually show counts of page views on their articles and most are 10,000 to 20,000 total. Only a handful in their history have ever had even 100,000. So this isn't an argument about turning the election.
This isn't about censorship. It's an internal squabble about the direction of management. The Intercept is rightfully concerned about their reputation being tarred as a Brietbart style hack shop publishing unsupported conspiracy theories.
posted by JackFlash at 9:57 AM on October 30, 2020 [5 favorites]
This may be a view from inside the bubble. It vastly over-estimates the influence of the Intercept. Less than one person in a thousand has ever even heard of the Intercept. They actually show counts of page views on their articles and most are 10,000 to 20,000 total. Only a handful in their history have ever had even 100,000. So this isn't an argument about turning the election.
This isn't about censorship. It's an internal squabble about the direction of management. The Intercept is rightfully concerned about their reputation being tarred as a Brietbart style hack shop publishing unsupported conspiracy theories.
posted by JackFlash at 9:57 AM on October 30, 2020 [5 favorites]
At least one good thing came of all this. I now have a much better understanding of what was meant back in the day by the term "useful idiot." I thought I got it before, but I was mistaken.
posted by wierdo at 10:17 AM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by wierdo at 10:17 AM on October 30, 2020 [7 favorites]
The estimable Zeynep Tufekci posted what she calls, "The Real Hunter Biden Story Everyone is Missing: Why aren't we paying attention to the blatant blackmail?"
posted by PhineasGage at 10:40 AM on October 30, 2020 [14 favorites]
posted by PhineasGage at 10:40 AM on October 30, 2020 [14 favorites]
And the estimable NBC News looks at "How a fake persona laid the groundwork for a Hunter Biden conspiracy deluge. A 64-page document that was later disseminated by close associates of President Donald Trump appears to be the work of a fake 'intelligence firm.'"
posted by PhineasGage at 11:05 AM on October 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by PhineasGage at 11:05 AM on October 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
c'mon guys yasaman beat everybody to post that nbc news story yesterday
posted by grandiloquiet at 11:12 AM on October 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by grandiloquiet at 11:12 AM on October 30, 2020 [4 favorites]
why?
Because that's all they got. Even the borderline shit (such as Biden is actually a secret rapist because he's too huggy) didn't stick because their dude is a billion times worse in that literally same category. Even if the Hunter stuff wasn't just horeshit, everyone out there can see Jared and Ivanka attending Cabinet meetings.
So, in summation, just like sometimes you have to go with "tan suit", "arugula", or "Starbucks cup", if all your opponent gives you is "his son tried to make money using his dad former job title", you have to go with it.
What, you expect Republicans to try to win based on policies and beliefs?
posted by sideshow at 12:29 PM on October 30, 2020 [6 favorites]
Because that's all they got. Even the borderline shit (such as Biden is actually a secret rapist because he's too huggy) didn't stick because their dude is a billion times worse in that literally same category. Even if the Hunter stuff wasn't just horeshit, everyone out there can see Jared and Ivanka attending Cabinet meetings.
So, in summation, just like sometimes you have to go with "tan suit", "arugula", or "Starbucks cup", if all your opponent gives you is "his son tried to make money using his dad former job title", you have to go with it.
What, you expect Republicans to try to win based on policies and beliefs?
posted by sideshow at 12:29 PM on October 30, 2020 [6 favorites]
Marcy Wheeler: Glenn Greenwald’s Self Hack: “I could go on and on”
In which emptywheel distills many of the points made in her Twitter thread above into an easily digestible chronicle of Glenn's fanatical commitment to self-corncobbing.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:48 PM on October 30, 2020 [6 favorites]
In which emptywheel distills many of the points made in her Twitter thread above into an easily digestible chronicle of Glenn's fanatical commitment to self-corncobbing.
posted by tonycpsu at 12:48 PM on October 30, 2020 [6 favorites]
@charlie_savage: Came across a weird claim in @mtaibbi's take on @ggreenwald. The NYT walked back nothing about our reporting that the CIA assessed that Russia offered $ to incentivize killings of US troops, it was in Trump's briefing & the WH developed response options but authorized no action.
Savage goes on in that thread to outline how nothing in the story was ever walked back, and that he stands behind everything that was reported.
Glenn Greenwald, no longer content with self-owns, enters the chat to concede the point, burying his factually-challenged colleague:
@ggreenwald: The NYT may not have walked it back but top Pentagon officials as well as field commanders stated explicitly they found no evidence to demonstrate this happened: link
Setting aside the moving of the goalposts, the link in question offers nothing in terms of refuting any of the facts in the NYT reporting, completely undermining his attempt to cape for his homie.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:40 PM on October 30, 2020 [6 favorites]
Savage goes on in that thread to outline how nothing in the story was ever walked back, and that he stands behind everything that was reported.
Glenn Greenwald, no longer content with self-owns, enters the chat to concede the point, burying his factually-challenged colleague:
@ggreenwald: The NYT may not have walked it back but top Pentagon officials as well as field commanders stated explicitly they found no evidence to demonstrate this happened: link
Setting aside the moving of the goalposts, the link in question offers nothing in terms of refuting any of the facts in the NYT reporting, completely undermining his attempt to cape for his homie.
posted by tonycpsu at 1:40 PM on October 30, 2020 [6 favorites]
Aspen's profile picture was created with an artificial intelligence face generator
I look at sites like this and I'm easily fooled, it seems. Are there features of AI fakes that gave this away? Just generally curious about how they figured it out.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:06 PM on October 30, 2020
I look at sites like this and I'm easily fooled, it seems. Are there features of AI fakes that gave this away? Just generally curious about how they figured it out.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:06 PM on October 30, 2020
Are there features of AI fakes that gave this away?
It's in the NBC article: "The profile picture for Aspen immediately showed signs of being a computer-generated image that can be created by computers and even some websites. Aspen's ears were asymmetrical, for one, but his left eye is what gave away that he did not really exist. Aspen's left iris juts out and appears to form a second pupil, a somewhat frequent error with computer-generated faces."
posted by yasaman at 2:14 PM on October 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
It's in the NBC article: "The profile picture for Aspen immediately showed signs of being a computer-generated image that can be created by computers and even some websites. Aspen's ears were asymmetrical, for one, but his left eye is what gave away that he did not really exist. Aspen's left iris juts out and appears to form a second pupil, a somewhat frequent error with computer-generated faces."
posted by yasaman at 2:14 PM on October 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
Thanks!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:16 PM on October 30, 2020
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 2:16 PM on October 30, 2020
Look at the ears. The ears are often wrong. The jewelry, the hair at the hairline, and the background. But sometimes the fakes are just good and pass scrutiny.
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 2:18 PM on October 30, 2020
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 2:18 PM on October 30, 2020
Ah, beaten to it. Why are the ears the true mark of true humanity?
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 2:19 PM on October 30, 2020
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 2:19 PM on October 30, 2020
Are there features of AI fakes that gave this away?
It varies, and naturally with how quick the state-of-the-art moves (and how one of the tools for training this sort of thing literally builds around "create a fake-maker and a fake-detector. Train the fake-maker until the detector can't tell the difference, then train the fake-detector until it can again. Repeat."), but right now a common tell is inconsistency of consistent details, as in the pupil aforementioned.
These systems don't generally have an idea of things like "This is what an eye looks like" or "this is what teeth look like", so you'll have teeth that look mostly right but stop being separate teeth around the edges; or an eyeball where the pupil has a dent in it, etc. Backgrounds are also worth noting, a lot of them have trouble with hair fanning out & blending into the background.
For videos (this is more "deepfake" than "person made up entirely", so far at least), there's a consistent tell that's difficult to describe verbally but is really obvious once you've watched some: The face tends to be too visible/face the camera a bit too much? The current generation of publicly available tooling is about "take video, isolate face-shape, map old-face to new-face, map new-face to face-shape movements, bob's your uncle", so it has a tendency to be just a bit *too* perfect, in a way.
posted by CrystalDave at 2:24 PM on October 30, 2020
It varies, and naturally with how quick the state-of-the-art moves (and how one of the tools for training this sort of thing literally builds around "create a fake-maker and a fake-detector. Train the fake-maker until the detector can't tell the difference, then train the fake-detector until it can again. Repeat."), but right now a common tell is inconsistency of consistent details, as in the pupil aforementioned.
These systems don't generally have an idea of things like "This is what an eye looks like" or "this is what teeth look like", so you'll have teeth that look mostly right but stop being separate teeth around the edges; or an eyeball where the pupil has a dent in it, etc. Backgrounds are also worth noting, a lot of them have trouble with hair fanning out & blending into the background.
For videos (this is more "deepfake" than "person made up entirely", so far at least), there's a consistent tell that's difficult to describe verbally but is really obvious once you've watched some: The face tends to be too visible/face the camera a bit too much? The current generation of publicly available tooling is about "take video, isolate face-shape, map old-face to new-face, map new-face to face-shape movements, bob's your uncle", so it has a tendency to be just a bit *too* perfect, in a way.
posted by CrystalDave at 2:24 PM on October 30, 2020
And now NBC is back with a clear thumping to Greenwald and everyone else: "Here's what happened when NBC News tried to report on the alleged Hunter Biden emails.
Analysis: Trump complains the media isn't reporting on Hunter Biden's emails. But NBC News met obstacles, including Rudy Giuliani, when it tried."
posted by PhineasGage at 3:31 PM on October 30, 2020 [9 favorites]
Analysis: Trump complains the media isn't reporting on Hunter Biden's emails. But NBC News met obstacles, including Rudy Giuliani, when it tried."
posted by PhineasGage at 3:31 PM on October 30, 2020 [9 favorites]
Putin chose a very interesting time to grant Snowden permanent residency status.
That must have made Greenwald happy.
posted by jamjam at 4:06 PM on October 30, 2020
That must have made Greenwald happy.
posted by jamjam at 4:06 PM on October 30, 2020
After the election, presuming Biden wins, it will be interesting to see what comes of the laptop, the emails, and the investigation into Hunter Biden. I do think there's something there (a sadly run of the mill influence peddling), but the "october surprise" being ignored by most of the media isn't, as Greenwald thinks, a media conspiracy, it's a desire to do better than jumping on dodgy stories where the chain of evidence is corrupt.
posted by chaz at 7:17 PM on October 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by chaz at 7:17 PM on October 30, 2020 [1 favorite]
but the "october surprise" being ignored by most of the media isn't, as Greenwald thinks, a media conspiracy, it's a desire to do better than jumping on dodgy stories where the chain of evidence is corrupt.
And also who gives a shit? Hunter Biden isn't running for president so why does this it even matter at all? Since when are candidates responsible for what their family members do? Surely not in this day and age.. if ever. Especially considering the blatant corruption of the ones making the allegations.
posted by Liquidwolf at 8:06 PM on October 30, 2020 [5 favorites]
And also who gives a shit? Hunter Biden isn't running for president so why does this it even matter at all? Since when are candidates responsible for what their family members do? Surely not in this day and age.. if ever. Especially considering the blatant corruption of the ones making the allegations.
posted by Liquidwolf at 8:06 PM on October 30, 2020 [5 favorites]
Since when are candidates responsible for what their family members do?
Remember Billy Beer?
posted by valkane at 8:23 PM on October 30, 2020 [3 favorites]
Remember Billy Beer?
posted by valkane at 8:23 PM on October 30, 2020 [3 favorites]
The part about trying to use family members to blackmail political candidates or presidents has a long history. Bill Clinton's half-brother being something of a stereotypical Arkansas good ol' boy was a common theme on Rush Limbaugh's radio show in the 90s. Hell, even some in the Democratic Party got shitty about Neil Bush, as I recall.
It has never been a particularly good strategy because most people simply don't give a fuck. Sadly, that seems to be true even for Trump despite his failsons doing more than just living in a spare room.
Happily, it makes such a small difference that it's a very weak line of attack on Biden, which is probably why even Fox News is expecting Hunter smears won't win the election for Trump. Trump's internals have to be looking pretty shitty to explain Fox's recent attitude and Kavanaugh's complete fucking meltdown and departure from reality. He's a hack, but was at least capable of pretending otherwise until very recently.
posted by wierdo at 12:40 AM on October 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
It has never been a particularly good strategy because most people simply don't give a fuck. Sadly, that seems to be true even for Trump despite his failsons doing more than just living in a spare room.
Happily, it makes such a small difference that it's a very weak line of attack on Biden, which is probably why even Fox News is expecting Hunter smears won't win the election for Trump. Trump's internals have to be looking pretty shitty to explain Fox's recent attitude and Kavanaugh's complete fucking meltdown and departure from reality. He's a hack, but was at least capable of pretending otherwise until very recently.
posted by wierdo at 12:40 AM on October 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
Schrödinger Greenwald can be both a committed and principled journalist in Brazil, against a very autocratic Bolsonaro, and a dangerous Trump enabler in the States. This... or the political culture here on MeFi mirror the political culture in the United States and it is totally corrupt, beyond repair.
1. What if there were more than two choices and everything was not black or white?
2. Most humans do indeed contain multitudes. As noted earlier, yes, Greenwald can brave and principled in Brazil while being a Trump enabler. He can even see himself as doing brave and principled things affecting the US, things that appear to enable Trump (who has a fairly shitty record when it comes to supporting democratic institutions in this nation) and not notice any disparity.
3. The political culture in the US is corrupt, you betcha. Totally corrupt, beyond repair? That is a stretch and truly hope you are wrong about about both the US and about MetaFilter. I do not understand how a disagreement about Greenwald's perspective on this particular article makes MeFites corrupt. (Also, I do wish folks would pipe down on the personal insults and terms like useful idiot, but that's me.)
4. At least in my lifetime, journalism has never been seen as a watchdog of élites. C'mon, the US is Extreme Capitalism Central. Mainstream media organizations are usually privately owned and about making money or gaining prestige or both. Still, there are competent publications and competent journalists. As a former journalist and editor, I have been astonished by Greenwald's complaints about his editors. They boil down to, "but I admit there isn't any real evidence, so what is the problem?"
That article is something but not journalism. Cable television, as a whole, is guilty of a lot of things. Long ago it sinned against journalism by creating a pundit class with often-dubious credentials to fill its many hours of air time by simple bullshitting. These shows looked like news to many but were not actual news nor staffed by actual journalists.
I think Greenwald has become a pundit who wants to be seen as a credible journalist (which he has been) without being treated, by his editors, as a credible journalist. Credible journalists doing a basic level of reporting do not get to publish speculative articles with no real confirmation or evidence. Pundits get to write whatever the fuck they want as long as someone will publish it.
I read the editorial comments; this guy's editor was professional and treated Greenwald's work as journalism. In the case of this specific article, my guess is that (unconsciously or not) Greenwald was writing as a pundit and not as a journalist, so of course he got angry and indignant. And righteous indignation can be a hell of a drug.
Does any part of this make it okay that Hunter Biden is running around trying to make money off of his connection to his dad? Of course not. Does that make Joe Biden himself corrupt as fuck? Nope. I imagine plenty of other things make Joe Biden corrupt. He is an American politician of a certain age who is from Delaware. If Greenwald wants to nail Joe Biden by committing one or more acts of journalism, more power to him. If, in the US, he wants to be an irresponsible pundit who is essentially encouraged to bullshit and is mostly immune to the resulting fallout, then hanging with Tucker Carlson was a savvy career choice.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:55 AM on October 31, 2020 [20 favorites]
1. What if there were more than two choices and everything was not black or white?
2. Most humans do indeed contain multitudes. As noted earlier, yes, Greenwald can brave and principled in Brazil while being a Trump enabler. He can even see himself as doing brave and principled things affecting the US, things that appear to enable Trump (who has a fairly shitty record when it comes to supporting democratic institutions in this nation) and not notice any disparity.
3. The political culture in the US is corrupt, you betcha. Totally corrupt, beyond repair? That is a stretch and truly hope you are wrong about about both the US and about MetaFilter. I do not understand how a disagreement about Greenwald's perspective on this particular article makes MeFites corrupt. (Also, I do wish folks would pipe down on the personal insults and terms like useful idiot, but that's me.)
4. At least in my lifetime, journalism has never been seen as a watchdog of élites. C'mon, the US is Extreme Capitalism Central. Mainstream media organizations are usually privately owned and about making money or gaining prestige or both. Still, there are competent publications and competent journalists. As a former journalist and editor, I have been astonished by Greenwald's complaints about his editors. They boil down to, "but I admit there isn't any real evidence, so what is the problem?"
That article is something but not journalism. Cable television, as a whole, is guilty of a lot of things. Long ago it sinned against journalism by creating a pundit class with often-dubious credentials to fill its many hours of air time by simple bullshitting. These shows looked like news to many but were not actual news nor staffed by actual journalists.
I think Greenwald has become a pundit who wants to be seen as a credible journalist (which he has been) without being treated, by his editors, as a credible journalist. Credible journalists doing a basic level of reporting do not get to publish speculative articles with no real confirmation or evidence. Pundits get to write whatever the fuck they want as long as someone will publish it.
I read the editorial comments; this guy's editor was professional and treated Greenwald's work as journalism. In the case of this specific article, my guess is that (unconsciously or not) Greenwald was writing as a pundit and not as a journalist, so of course he got angry and indignant. And righteous indignation can be a hell of a drug.
Does any part of this make it okay that Hunter Biden is running around trying to make money off of his connection to his dad? Of course not. Does that make Joe Biden himself corrupt as fuck? Nope. I imagine plenty of other things make Joe Biden corrupt. He is an American politician of a certain age who is from Delaware. If Greenwald wants to nail Joe Biden by committing one or more acts of journalism, more power to him. If, in the US, he wants to be an irresponsible pundit who is essentially encouraged to bullshit and is mostly immune to the resulting fallout, then hanging with Tucker Carlson was a savvy career choice.
posted by Bella Donna at 2:55 AM on October 31, 2020 [20 favorites]
So, on the one hand Greenwald was a complex dude, and we should take care to look deeply and fully before judging him.
But on the other Obama failed to shutdown the drone strikes, and is therefore the worst President ever.
Good to know hypocrisy is not solely a vice of the right.
posted by Frayed Knot at 6:15 AM on October 31, 2020 [3 favorites]
But on the other Obama failed to shutdown the drone strikes, and is therefore the worst President ever.
Good to know hypocrisy is not solely a vice of the right.
posted by Frayed Knot at 6:15 AM on October 31, 2020 [3 favorites]
> So, on the one hand Greenwald was a complex dude, and we should take care to look deeply and fully before judging him.
But on the other Obama failed to shutdown the drone strikes, and is therefore the worst President ever.
Nah, they squared that circle by simply diminishing or denying the existence of Obama's virtues and accomplishments.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:17 AM on October 31, 2020 [6 favorites]
But on the other Obama failed to shutdown the drone strikes, and is therefore the worst President ever.
Nah, they squared that circle by simply diminishing or denying the existence of Obama's virtues and accomplishments.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:17 AM on October 31, 2020 [6 favorites]
I think almost all US Presidents are guilty of crimes against humanity and have a pretty dismal view of Obama, but that does not make me incapable of recognizing Trump as an existential threat, and Biden as the much lesser evil.
posted by benzenedream at 9:18 AM on October 31, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by benzenedream at 9:18 AM on October 31, 2020 [7 favorites]
So, on the one hand Greenwald was a complex dude, and we should take care to look deeply and fully before judging him.
That is entirely not the point either I or Bella Donna made! Greenwald absolutely should be judged for the worst of what he's done.
No one here has said that Obama is the worst president either! The drone strikes are awful, but as mentioned above (drezdn), the only reason we haven't heard about Trump's use of them is that he's ended transparency about their use! And it's also been said here that being president is often a choice between shitty things! (Your Childhood Pet Rock) This doesn't excuse Obama for his choices, but the consensus here, that I see at least, is not that he is uniquely horrible, but that he was not the fresh breeze we had hoped for.
posted by JHarris at 9:20 AM on October 31, 2020 [3 favorites]
That is entirely not the point either I or Bella Donna made! Greenwald absolutely should be judged for the worst of what he's done.
No one here has said that Obama is the worst president either! The drone strikes are awful, but as mentioned above (drezdn), the only reason we haven't heard about Trump's use of them is that he's ended transparency about their use! And it's also been said here that being president is often a choice between shitty things! (Your Childhood Pet Rock) This doesn't excuse Obama for his choices, but the consensus here, that I see at least, is not that he is uniquely horrible, but that he was not the fresh breeze we had hoped for.
posted by JHarris at 9:20 AM on October 31, 2020 [3 favorites]
Long piece from The Daily Beast on the resignation, after responses from editors, staff, and Greenwald.
Takeaways: 1) this was not entirely unsurprising and
2) "Last year, for example, he irked Intercept colleagues after he publicly mocked an initiative by First Look’s diversity committee to include pronouns in Slack bios, and singled out a First Look staffer who identified as non-binary and had been critical of Greenwald on Twitter.
“I would literally, like, lose an eye before I complied with this,” he said of the initiative on the Girls Chat podcast. “I probably wouldn’t poke out both my eyes, so I didn’t want to use hyperbole, but I would rather be without one of my eyes than submit to this.”"
posted by soundguy99 at 12:28 PM on October 31, 2020 [6 favorites]
Takeaways: 1) this was not entirely unsurprising and
2) "Last year, for example, he irked Intercept colleagues after he publicly mocked an initiative by First Look’s diversity committee to include pronouns in Slack bios, and singled out a First Look staffer who identified as non-binary and had been critical of Greenwald on Twitter.
“I would literally, like, lose an eye before I complied with this,” he said of the initiative on the Girls Chat podcast. “I probably wouldn’t poke out both my eyes, so I didn’t want to use hyperbole, but I would rather be without one of my eyes than submit to this.”"
posted by soundguy99 at 12:28 PM on October 31, 2020 [6 favorites]
Now the NYT has a hilarious look at Giuliani's attempts: "Their First Try Backfired, but Giuliani and Allies Keep Aiming at Biden."
posted by PhineasGage at 12:43 PM on October 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
The former New York mayor’s dirt-digging effort on Hunter Biden in 2019 ended with President Trump’s impeachment. Now he is back with new associates. So far it is not going exactly as planned.Nearly every paragraph is a gem by itself. Utter Keystone Kops.
posted by PhineasGage at 12:43 PM on October 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
I'm sort of baffled as to why Greenwald would want to align himself with that crew of bumblefucks?
posted by octothorpe at 1:05 PM on October 31, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 1:05 PM on October 31, 2020 [2 favorites]
It could be that he sees a Biden win coming and wants to establish himself in the opposition early on.
posted by chaz at 1:40 PM on October 31, 2020
posted by chaz at 1:40 PM on October 31, 2020
It could be that he sees a Biden win coming and wants to establish himself in the opposition early on.
So, 2020's Comey -- but repeated as farce?
posted by Slothrup at 2:14 PM on October 31, 2020
So, 2020's Comey -- but repeated as farce?
posted by Slothrup at 2:14 PM on October 31, 2020
So, 2020's Comey -- but repeated as farce?
Well I'm just spitballing, but picture a Biden win. There will be a media which attacks that administration, and perhaps Greenwald will raise money for an outlet which attacks from the Left/Libertarian position. Now he has clearly established that he is no friend of the Biden Administration. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
posted by chaz at 2:28 PM on October 31, 2020
Well I'm just spitballing, but picture a Biden win. There will be a media which attacks that administration, and perhaps Greenwald will raise money for an outlet which attacks from the Left/Libertarian position. Now he has clearly established that he is no friend of the Biden Administration. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.
posted by chaz at 2:28 PM on October 31, 2020
I read the email exchange on Greenwald's substack, and editor Peter Maas comes across as an idiot who cannot actually read carefully, and is more interested in ideological massaging of employees, and Betsy Reed a authoritarian relativist neoliberal douchebag bureaucrat. They sound like bad managers. But of course there could be context missing from this particular email exchange.
The email does mention Greenwald lawyering up over the contract issue. So the contract issue is still moot.
posted by polymodus at 2:58 PM on October 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
The email does mention Greenwald lawyering up over the contract issue. So the contract issue is still moot.
posted by polymodus at 2:58 PM on October 31, 2020 [1 favorite]
I read the email exchange on Greenwald's substack, and editor Peter Maas comes across as an idiot who cannot actually read carefully, and is more interested in ideological massaging of employees, and Betsy Reed a authoritarian relativist neoliberal douchebag bureaucrat.Glenn, is that you?
Seriously, though, I also read the posted e-mails and I came away with a very different impression.
posted by Nerd of the North at 4:20 PM on October 31, 2020 [15 favorites]
$20, same as.. oh, never mind..
posted by Nerd of the North at 5:13 PM on October 31, 2020 [12 favorites]
posted by Nerd of the North at 5:13 PM on October 31, 2020 [12 favorites]
Damn, I missed my chance to dress up as a authoritarian relativist neoliberal douchebag bureaucrat for halloween. Maybe next year.
posted by octothorpe at 5:15 PM on October 31, 2020 [7 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 5:15 PM on October 31, 2020 [7 favorites]
So, wait. Now there's a second Hunter Biden laptop that happened to be found by the DEA in the Massachusetts office of a Fox News celebrity psychiatrist. Fire the writers. They've surely jumped the shark.
posted by JackFlash at 5:46 PM on October 31, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by JackFlash at 5:46 PM on October 31, 2020 [3 favorites]
In other words, So the Rs last ditch effort is to have us believe that Hunter Biden just traveled the country leaving laptops wherever he went?
(And yes, this makes Greenwald's decision that "suppression of Biden laptop rumors for Nefarious Reasons" was the hill he wanted to die on even more ridiculous.)
posted by soundguy99 at 6:15 PM on October 31, 2020 [5 favorites]
(And yes, this makes Greenwald's decision that "suppression of Biden laptop rumors for Nefarious Reasons" was the hill he wanted to die on even more ridiculous.)
posted by soundguy99 at 6:15 PM on October 31, 2020 [5 favorites]
I have one of Hunter Biden's laptops in the trunk of my car.
posted by mikelieman at 2:25 AM on November 1, 2020 [8 favorites]
posted by mikelieman at 2:25 AM on November 1, 2020 [8 favorites]
I am Hunter Biden's laptop, and so is my wife.
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:39 PM on November 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:39 PM on November 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
"I am Hunter Biden's laptop." "I am Hunter Biden's laptop." "I am Hunter Biden's laptop."
posted by PhineasGage at 1:48 PM on November 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by PhineasGage at 1:48 PM on November 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
So I guess the idea is that the Hunter lappy was the only Republican plank that didn't get laughed out of the headlines instantly, so they'll just circle back and try to pump it up.
One of the many problems of NeverTrumpers is that their presence camouflages the absolute bankruptcy of the Republican Party. They know the current administration has nothing to offer, but they're obviously just waiting in the wings to come back to the fold rather than rethinking what a reasonable conservative party might be. The party they still want to exist is the one that got us here, they just want a do-over to fork away from Trump in 2016 this time. Always fighting the last war.
posted by rhizome at 1:57 PM on November 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
One of the many problems of NeverTrumpers is that their presence camouflages the absolute bankruptcy of the Republican Party. They know the current administration has nothing to offer, but they're obviously just waiting in the wings to come back to the fold rather than rethinking what a reasonable conservative party might be. The party they still want to exist is the one that got us here, they just want a do-over to fork away from Trump in 2016 this time. Always fighting the last war.
posted by rhizome at 1:57 PM on November 1, 2020 [3 favorites]
they're obviously just waiting in the wings to come back to the fold rather than rethinking what a reasonable conservative party might be
Sincere question: Why is this obvious to you?
I don't pay much attention to Never Trumpers because even a "reasonable" center right has no appeal to me. But the handful of Never Trumpers I've listened talk at length say things like "burn it all down," "it was all a lie," etc. and don't date the beginning of problems to 2016.
posted by mark k at 6:08 PM on November 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
Sincere question: Why is this obvious to you?
I don't pay much attention to Never Trumpers because even a "reasonable" center right has no appeal to me. But the handful of Never Trumpers I've listened talk at length say things like "burn it all down," "it was all a lie," etc. and don't date the beginning of problems to 2016.
posted by mark k at 6:08 PM on November 1, 2020 [2 favorites]
But on the other Obama failed to shutdown the drone strikes, and is therefore the worst President ever.
The above partisanship distorting some very recent history is pretty fascinating. It's not that Obama failed to "shutdown the drone strikes", but that just like the great deportation and immigration detention machine, Obama used his competency to scale the drone murder program up only to let Trump really commit all kinds of horror with it (and with less transparency, naturally).
I'm still confused as to why Obama had to murder a 16-year old American citizen without trial though. At least Abdulrahman was fortunate enough to be instantly vaporized by a hyper-competent American president of color instead of his 8-year old sister, who suffered for two hours before dying due to the cruder military operation undertaken by a cruder and less competent fascist conservative white American president.
Oh, look at the author on that last link. What a sad world where Obama and Bush are still welcome in so many parts of polite and woke society, but Greenwald gets swept up in corrosive bullshit and ends up just wasting his entire legacy on said bullshit.
posted by Ouverture at 8:51 PM on November 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
The above partisanship distorting some very recent history is pretty fascinating. It's not that Obama failed to "shutdown the drone strikes", but that just like the great deportation and immigration detention machine, Obama used his competency to scale the drone murder program up only to let Trump really commit all kinds of horror with it (and with less transparency, naturally).
I'm still confused as to why Obama had to murder a 16-year old American citizen without trial though. At least Abdulrahman was fortunate enough to be instantly vaporized by a hyper-competent American president of color instead of his 8-year old sister, who suffered for two hours before dying due to the cruder military operation undertaken by a cruder and less competent fascist conservative white American president.
Oh, look at the author on that last link. What a sad world where Obama and Bush are still welcome in so many parts of polite and woke society, but Greenwald gets swept up in corrosive bullshit and ends up just wasting his entire legacy on said bullshit.
posted by Ouverture at 8:51 PM on November 1, 2020 [4 favorites]
I am feeling confused. I’m pretty sure that this post was about Greenwald and not about, say, Obama’s fucked up drone murder program. When my kid was still in grade school and I was living in Sweden, they came home after school one day furious and said various things about George Bush the younger that would have gotten them thrown into jail if we have been living in the US at the time and they were not a little kid. (Of course, these days, they might get thrown into jail as a child anyway but I digress.) It turned out that a classmate’s cousin had been murdered by US bombs dropped on Iraq. That was completely fucked up. A great deal of Obama’s shit was completely fucked up. What does that have to do with the post?
What a sad world where Obama and Bush are still welcome in so many parts of polite and woke society, but Greenwald gets swept up in corrosive bullshit and ends up just wasting his entire legacy on said bullshit.
Agreed. Things are seriously fucked up. That doesn’t happen to change my opinion about Greenwald.
posted by Bella Donna at 10:11 AM on November 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
What a sad world where Obama and Bush are still welcome in so many parts of polite and woke society, but Greenwald gets swept up in corrosive bullshit and ends up just wasting his entire legacy on said bullshit.
Agreed. Things are seriously fucked up. That doesn’t happen to change my opinion about Greenwald.
posted by Bella Donna at 10:11 AM on November 2, 2020 [8 favorites]
It had never occurred to me that the intercept would be able to pay him half $1 million a year +300K a year to pay for security and attorneys. That’s the only part of the story that thrills me, and I’m sorry that there are so few journalists who make real money.
posted by Bella Donna at 11:38 AM on November 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Bella Donna at 11:38 AM on November 2, 2020 [3 favorites]
If you're wondering what Ouverture is talking about, it appears to be this. Which of course prompts the usual required response:
NO, that isn't great. YES, it's pretty damn awful. Which, again, is AWFUL, the killing of civilians in these strikes is detestable and not nearly reported enough on, and this was a US American whose greatest crime was being the son of a suspected terrorist leader.
B-U-T....
As if once again to prove he's done everything bad Obama did but in spades, Trump has actually ordered the extra-judicial killing of a U.S. citizen on US soil, because he was "antifa." AND the reason we know of Obama's drone strike killing of a US citizen is because he was transparent about it, while Trump ended that transparency, so Trump could well have made the problem worse! We don't even KNOW how many people Trump has killed with drone strikes, but it's probable it's much worse.
posted by JHarris at 6:22 PM on November 2, 2020 [7 favorites]
NO, that isn't great. YES, it's pretty damn awful. Which, again, is AWFUL, the killing of civilians in these strikes is detestable and not nearly reported enough on, and this was a US American whose greatest crime was being the son of a suspected terrorist leader.
B-U-T....
As if once again to prove he's done everything bad Obama did but in spades, Trump has actually ordered the extra-judicial killing of a U.S. citizen on US soil, because he was "antifa." AND the reason we know of Obama's drone strike killing of a US citizen is because he was transparent about it, while Trump ended that transparency, so Trump could well have made the problem worse! We don't even KNOW how many people Trump has killed with drone strikes, but it's probable it's much worse.
posted by JHarris at 6:22 PM on November 2, 2020 [7 favorites]
If anyone in this thread still cares what Glenn Greenwald thinks today, here are some of his comments on the election and Matt Yglesias' commentary.
posted by PhineasGage at 9:05 AM on November 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by PhineasGage at 9:05 AM on November 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
From that Greenwald Twitter thread:
"Other than some tweets and unusual personality affects, there’s been nothing “abnormal” about the Trump presidency compared to what came before it"
IOW:
Lots of people: Well, I think Greenwald's wrong about a lot of stuff, but I don't think he's actually literally on Russia's payroll.
Greenwald: hold my beer.
posted by soundguy99 at 2:45 PM on November 3, 2020 [7 favorites]
"Other than some tweets and unusual personality affects, there’s been nothing “abnormal” about the Trump presidency compared to what came before it"
IOW:
Lots of people: Well, I think Greenwald's wrong about a lot of stuff, but I don't think he's actually literally on Russia's payroll.
Greenwald: hold my beer.
posted by soundguy99 at 2:45 PM on November 3, 2020 [7 favorites]
It had never occurred to me that the intercept would be able to pay him half $1 million a year +300K a year to pay for security and attorneys. That’s the only part of the story that thrills me, and I’m sorry that there are so few journalists who make real money.
I've recently come up with what I think is an easily understandable way of describing how much money one billion dollars is: it's like receiving one million dollars every week, for almost 20 years.
Pierre Omidyar has ten of them. He could pay Glenn Greenwald $800,000 dollars a year for over 12,000 years.
posted by rhizome at 3:49 PM on November 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
I've recently come up with what I think is an easily understandable way of describing how much money one billion dollars is: it's like receiving one million dollars every week, for almost 20 years.
Pierre Omidyar has ten of them. He could pay Glenn Greenwald $800,000 dollars a year for over 12,000 years.
posted by rhizome at 3:49 PM on November 3, 2020 [1 favorite]
Sincere question: Why is this obvious to you?
Because they're only addressing personalities, not policies. They have not renounced the Republican Party that got us here, that they continue to protect by not drawing attention to the fundamental problems that resulted in a Donald Trump presidency. Trump is a symptom of a larger rot, but you wouldn't know it from listening to Steve Schmidt or Rick Wilson or George Conway.
posted by rhizome at 5:25 PM on November 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
Because they're only addressing personalities, not policies. They have not renounced the Republican Party that got us here, that they continue to protect by not drawing attention to the fundamental problems that resulted in a Donald Trump presidency. Trump is a symptom of a larger rot, but you wouldn't know it from listening to Steve Schmidt or Rick Wilson or George Conway.
posted by rhizome at 5:25 PM on November 3, 2020 [2 favorites]
And Glenn continues to carry the bucket for white supremacy.
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:30 PM on November 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 2:30 PM on November 7, 2020 [4 favorites]
Wired publishes about the Lava Jato hackers.
Last year, a hacker gave Glenn Greenwald a trove of damning messages between Brazil’s leaders. Some suspected the Russians. The truth was far less boring.
posted by adamvasco at 4:37 AM on November 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
Last year, a hacker gave Glenn Greenwald a trove of damning messages between Brazil’s leaders. Some suspected the Russians. The truth was far less boring.
posted by adamvasco at 4:37 AM on November 14, 2020 [1 favorite]
Marcy Wheeler: After Wailing That No One Was Reporting on the Hunter Biden Laptop, Glenn Greenwald Is Now Wailing because Ben Collins Did
To recap then. Glenn has spent weeks suggesting no one at big media outlets was reporting on the Hunter Biden laptop.posted by tonycpsu at 4:42 PM on November 17, 2020 [3 favorites]
Collins noted that he did.
Glenn’s response to was to call him a fraud because he did that reporting at NBC.
I guess it wasn’t reporting he was really after.
Greenwald is still beating that dead horse? No one cared before the election and really no one cares now.
posted by octothorpe at 7:01 PM on November 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 7:01 PM on November 17, 2020 [2 favorites]
He's basically trying to argue that it's only "independent" voices like his that are doing "real" journalism, and all the journalists who work for actual outlets are agents of The Man, yo. Because otherwise he's the one who's compromised, and that can't be the case.
There's also his recent attack on the ACLU because the organization is (with help from the larger left leaning community) is starting to rethink the arguments made by free speech "absolutism", and in particular because a staff lawyer who is transgender there made the argument that "hey, TERF lies actually do real fucking harm to transgender people, so perhaps we shouldn't be publishing them." on his private Twitter channel.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:07 AM on November 18, 2020 [6 favorites]
There's also his recent attack on the ACLU because the organization is (with help from the larger left leaning community) is starting to rethink the arguments made by free speech "absolutism", and in particular because a staff lawyer who is transgender there made the argument that "hey, TERF lies actually do real fucking harm to transgender people, so perhaps we shouldn't be publishing them." on his private Twitter channel.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:07 AM on November 18, 2020 [6 favorites]
Greenwald is being particularly pathetically Trump-adjacent these days, what with the claiming Pelosi stopped covid relief and the like.
posted by tavella at 3:10 PM on November 28, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by tavella at 3:10 PM on November 28, 2020 [3 favorites]
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posted by GuyZero at 12:27 PM on October 29, 2020 [11 favorites]