The worst thing since Elvis Presley, to do black music so selfishly
December 21, 2023 4:59 AM Subscribe
FD Signifier talks about the 'white rapper' paradox and how it functions with whiteness and commercialism/fame/etc. In discussion: mainly Eminem and his influence on hip hop, but also some focus on Vanilla Ice before him and Mac Miller after, shout-outs to El-P, Lil Dicky, Jack Harlow (where apparently FD was bugged about doing a vid on the recent superstar) and Marlon Craft.
Previously with FD Signifier: You're Wrong About Black Panther (2018), Dissecting the Manosphere, Bo Burnham's Inside and "White Liberal Performative Art"
Previously with FD Signifier: You're Wrong About Black Panther (2018), Dissecting the Manosphere, Bo Burnham's Inside and "White Liberal Performative Art"
Can't hang with Eminem, dude is corny, but his heart seems to be in the right place. White dudes who I appreciate are El P, Action Bronson, Tommy Richman and (I'll probably regret saying this) BLP Kosher.
Jack Harlow is forgettable, Lil Dicky is a joke.
That's my speech about whiteness.
posted by cloeburner at 7:12 AM on December 21, 2023
Jack Harlow is forgettable, Lil Dicky is a joke.
That's my speech about whiteness.
posted by cloeburner at 7:12 AM on December 21, 2023
If you're old enough to remember MC Miker and DJ Sven, the early warning signs were there.
posted by mhoye at 7:35 AM on December 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 7:35 AM on December 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
Thanks for posting, Pachylad! I was thinking about Eminem the other day after listening to a pretty weak discussion of appropriation and hip hop, and this video was exactly what I needed to think with.
posted by cupcakeninja at 8:23 AM on December 21, 2023
posted by cupcakeninja at 8:23 AM on December 21, 2023
"We're gonna ring-rang-a-dong for a holiday!"
posted by the sobsister at 9:16 AM on December 21, 2023
posted by the sobsister at 9:16 AM on December 21, 2023
I got to about the 55m mark of this when he suddenly turned into an old guy complaining about how things today aren't the way they used to be.
I really can't speak well to rap or hip hop culture in general. The rapper I'm most fascinated by is Falco, who is so far outside of any of the discussion FD is having here that I'm not sure FD even knows that Falco released a dozen albums and was buried as a national hero in Austria.
But yeah, it was really interesting right up until he got all "but today, it isn't like what it used to be and that's bad", and maybe he just needs a cloud to shout at.
posted by hippybear at 9:38 AM on December 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
I really can't speak well to rap or hip hop culture in general. The rapper I'm most fascinated by is Falco, who is so far outside of any of the discussion FD is having here that I'm not sure FD even knows that Falco released a dozen albums and was buried as a national hero in Austria.
But yeah, it was really interesting right up until he got all "but today, it isn't like what it used to be and that's bad", and maybe he just needs a cloud to shout at.
posted by hippybear at 9:38 AM on December 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
I really can't speak well to rap or hip hop culture in general.
Then what are you talking about?
posted by anansi at 10:02 AM on December 21, 2023 [16 favorites]
Then what are you talking about?
posted by anansi at 10:02 AM on December 21, 2023 [16 favorites]
Sad to see MC Frontalot not mentioned in the nerdcore rap sub-sub-sub-sub-subsection of the video.
@%@# Jack Harlow. I remember hearing "First Class" on the radio and thinking "that is one lazy-ass song" and then to find out that the jabroni behind it was a megastar? Oof. I've always hated Lil' Dickey. White rappers who do the whole "look how white I am!" thing are terrible, as are those who try to adopt the vocal mannerisms and stylings of Black rappers. Rap is fundamentally about authenticity, and both approaches violate that core precept.
"I don't like rap, except for Eminem" is functionally equivalent to "I like all music, except rap."
Happy that Aesop continues to get love. I went to middle school and high school with him and had no idea that he rapped at all, let alone that he would become such a legend.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:36 AM on December 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
@%@# Jack Harlow. I remember hearing "First Class" on the radio and thinking "that is one lazy-ass song" and then to find out that the jabroni behind it was a megastar? Oof. I've always hated Lil' Dickey. White rappers who do the whole "look how white I am!" thing are terrible, as are those who try to adopt the vocal mannerisms and stylings of Black rappers. Rap is fundamentally about authenticity, and both approaches violate that core precept.
"I don't like rap, except for Eminem" is functionally equivalent to "I like all music, except rap."
Happy that Aesop continues to get love. I went to middle school and high school with him and had no idea that he rapped at all, let alone that he would become such a legend.
posted by grumpybear69 at 11:36 AM on December 21, 2023 [7 favorites]
I've always hated Lil' Dickey. White rappers who do the whole "look how white I am!"
Are comedy rappers like Dicky really that different from nerdcore? I dunno, I always felt like that subgenre suffered precisely from an excess of “look, I’m rapping about stuff that isn’t stereotypically rap subject matter,” especially because regular rap has plenty of nerdy cultural references.
posted by atoxyl at 11:48 AM on December 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
Are comedy rappers like Dicky really that different from nerdcore? I dunno, I always felt like that subgenre suffered precisely from an excess of “look, I’m rapping about stuff that isn’t stereotypically rap subject matter,” especially because regular rap has plenty of nerdy cultural references.
posted by atoxyl at 11:48 AM on December 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
I never really listened to Mac Miller that much - I guess I filed him as the “major label indie” version of the previous generation of white indie rappers who get namechecked in the video (and who I listened to plenty) but that might be inaccurate.
posted by atoxyl at 11:55 AM on December 21, 2023
posted by atoxyl at 11:55 AM on December 21, 2023
especially because regular rap has plenty of nerdy cultural references.
MFers act like they forgot about Del
posted by Roommate at 11:58 AM on December 21, 2023 [13 favorites]
MFers act like they forgot about Del
posted by Roommate at 11:58 AM on December 21, 2023 [13 favorites]
Are comedy rappers like Dicky really that different from nerdcore?
There's definitely a lot of overlap. And 100% nerdcore was founded on the (perceived) dissonance of rapping about "uncool" things. It has been nice to see the genre produce what I consider to be real standout talent like Megaran and Sammus.
My biggest problem with Dicky is that he is a bad rapper and also seems extremely obnoxious, so for him to then get his own TV show was like "WHAT" but is precisely the issue at the core of FD's video.
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:00 PM on December 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
There's definitely a lot of overlap. And 100% nerdcore was founded on the (perceived) dissonance of rapping about "uncool" things. It has been nice to see the genre produce what I consider to be real standout talent like Megaran and Sammus.
My biggest problem with Dicky is that he is a bad rapper and also seems extremely obnoxious, so for him to then get his own TV show was like "WHAT" but is precisely the issue at the core of FD's video.
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:00 PM on December 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
Really bad white rapper - absolutely nothing less respectable in the genre.
Competent, attractive white rapper - not credible but marketable.
Goofy white rapper, skilled/authentic white rapper who isn’t trying to get huge - there’s a steady niche for you.
Goofy, skilled and generally authentic-seeming white rapper - you’re Eminem.
(I think this is all basically within the scope of what he’s talking about but that’s how I’ve observed it playing out)
posted by atoxyl at 12:18 PM on December 21, 2023
Competent, attractive white rapper - not credible but marketable.
Goofy white rapper, skilled/authentic white rapper who isn’t trying to get huge - there’s a steady niche for you.
Goofy, skilled and generally authentic-seeming white rapper - you’re Eminem.
(I think this is all basically within the scope of what he’s talking about but that’s how I’ve observed it playing out)
posted by atoxyl at 12:18 PM on December 21, 2023
I ended up listening to the whole piece, and I guess I kind of regret it. I do agree with most of his perspectives and thought he did a great job explaining them. I don't know why he felt he had to sour parts of the piece with tired and irrelevant tropes like "white people have no rhythm", but maybe that's because I fit the stereotype.
Like hippybear, I also felt there was an element of cloud-shouting disappointment with how the popular music scene has evolved since FD's youth. But what do I know? I mostly stopped listening to hip-hop in 1991 when KDAY went off the air and have since been filling my "void" and "vacuous space" with a variety of other kinds of music.
Some random notes I took while watching are more reflective of the kind of piece I wanted to hear than the kind he wanted to produce:
The lack of "rock bands" at half-time shows he noted is a great exhibit of overall cultural change. Popular music has largely moved on from "rock", just as it previously moved on from "jazz" or "swing". This is just the way culture works. But the spiritual successor of "rock" as "white person" music is arguably "country" and not "hip-hop".
Speaking of jazz, it's interesting to contrast jazz with rock. Here too is an art form with distinctly African-American roots wherein some white Americans found financial success. But I'm hard-pressed to think of a "jazz Elvis", and by the time FD is born jazz is a decidedly niche enterprise.
(By the way, an interesting spiritual companion to this piece is Adam Neely's Is Laufey Jazz?).
I don't know that I would have described Public Enemy as "white friendly". "White friendly" hip-hop of that era or slightly later would have been more like Young MC or MC Hammer. At least among my friends, NWA was probably more popular than Public Enemy.
posted by Slothrup at 12:19 PM on December 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
Like hippybear, I also felt there was an element of cloud-shouting disappointment with how the popular music scene has evolved since FD's youth. But what do I know? I mostly stopped listening to hip-hop in 1991 when KDAY went off the air and have since been filling my "void" and "vacuous space" with a variety of other kinds of music.
Some random notes I took while watching are more reflective of the kind of piece I wanted to hear than the kind he wanted to produce:
The lack of "rock bands" at half-time shows he noted is a great exhibit of overall cultural change. Popular music has largely moved on from "rock", just as it previously moved on from "jazz" or "swing". This is just the way culture works. But the spiritual successor of "rock" as "white person" music is arguably "country" and not "hip-hop".
Speaking of jazz, it's interesting to contrast jazz with rock. Here too is an art form with distinctly African-American roots wherein some white Americans found financial success. But I'm hard-pressed to think of a "jazz Elvis", and by the time FD is born jazz is a decidedly niche enterprise.
(By the way, an interesting spiritual companion to this piece is Adam Neely's Is Laufey Jazz?).
I don't know that I would have described Public Enemy as "white friendly". "White friendly" hip-hop of that era or slightly later would have been more like Young MC or MC Hammer. At least among my friends, NWA was probably more popular than Public Enemy.
posted by Slothrup at 12:19 PM on December 21, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah this is another great video from FD. The big argument is that white rappers can do "everything right," but the needs of whiteness will still distort the result, disproportionally elevating what they do and even ruining it.
Coincidentally right before I saw this one the algorithm served me up this interview with Slug (of Atmosphere), who is multiracial and grew up in a Black neighborhood, yet is generally categorized as a white MC. The TLDR on that is that it took him a while to understand it and he just does the best he can? The two pieces go together well.
I don't see what the headline here has to do with the piece, TBH. It's the opposite of what FD argues.
posted by anhedonic at 12:37 PM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Coincidentally right before I saw this one the algorithm served me up this interview with Slug (of Atmosphere), who is multiracial and grew up in a Black neighborhood, yet is generally categorized as a white MC. The TLDR on that is that it took him a while to understand it and he just does the best he can? The two pieces go together well.
I don't see what the headline here has to do with the piece, TBH. It's the opposite of what FD argues.
posted by anhedonic at 12:37 PM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't see what the headline here has to do with the piece, TBH. It's the opposite of what FD argues.
It's an Eminem lyric.
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:47 PM on December 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's an Eminem lyric.
posted by grumpybear69 at 12:47 PM on December 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's an interesting video, and as uncomfortable as it is to hear hippybear bring up Falco in this thread, there is a lot of generational... unease... in this video that F.D Signifier hasn't thought to unpack in himself. Not to say it isn't valid for him personally, but it's really something missing in his breakdown that affects his credibility in an unfair way.
posted by groda at 12:56 PM on December 21, 2023
posted by groda at 12:56 PM on December 21, 2023
But I'm hard-pressed to think of a "jazz Elvis"
I’m not much of a jazz historian but doesn’t the big band era offer a whole bunch? And then it kind of became the substrate of popular music, as rock and hip hop did in turn. I feel like the conventional wisdom is that the last is distinct from the preceding two in how long black cultural gatekeepers have been able to retain some influence.
there is a lot of generational... unease... in this video that F.D Signifier hasn't thought to unpack in himself
Certainly one thing that isn’t really discussed is that it’s not just Eminem blowing the doors open, it’s generations of white kids growing up with hip hop being the dominant musical form.
posted by atoxyl at 1:12 PM on December 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
I’m not much of a jazz historian but doesn’t the big band era offer a whole bunch? And then it kind of became the substrate of popular music, as rock and hip hop did in turn. I feel like the conventional wisdom is that the last is distinct from the preceding two in how long black cultural gatekeepers have been able to retain some influence.
there is a lot of generational... unease... in this video that F.D Signifier hasn't thought to unpack in himself
Certainly one thing that isn’t really discussed is that it’s not just Eminem blowing the doors open, it’s generations of white kids growing up with hip hop being the dominant musical form.
posted by atoxyl at 1:12 PM on December 21, 2023 [4 favorites]
But I'm hard-pressed to think of a "jazz Elvis", and by the time FD is born jazz is a decidedly niche enterprise.
There were plenty of white swing bands playing the same tunes as African-American bands and making more money thanks to better access to record companies for distribution and access to more performance venues thanks to Jim Crow laws. While some white band leaders, Benny Goodman is one example, made efforts to include black musicians and play authentic jazz, the differences in style were significant and the acknowledgments to the sources were few. There were plenty of parallels to Elvis in the 50s (Elvis, to his credit was honest about his influences).
posted by tommasz at 1:32 PM on December 21, 2023 [9 favorites]
There were plenty of white swing bands playing the same tunes as African-American bands and making more money thanks to better access to record companies for distribution and access to more performance venues thanks to Jim Crow laws. While some white band leaders, Benny Goodman is one example, made efforts to include black musicians and play authentic jazz, the differences in style were significant and the acknowledgments to the sources were few. There were plenty of parallels to Elvis in the 50s (Elvis, to his credit was honest about his influences).
posted by tommasz at 1:32 PM on December 21, 2023 [9 favorites]
But MC Hawking is still cool, though, right?
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:38 PM on December 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 1:38 PM on December 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
I guess I was thinking of swing and big band as things distinct from "jazz", probably due to a combination of personal ignorance and a dislike of drawing lines around genres.
posted by Slothrup at 1:43 PM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Slothrup at 1:43 PM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is the Killarmy reference I needed in 2023.
posted by kensington314 at 1:50 PM on December 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 1:50 PM on December 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
And Elvis, from what I know, made efforts to promote black artists and was a staunch supporter of civil rights. Like Eminem & Mac Miller, he's someone (so it seems) tried to do everything right, but white supremacy will white supremacize.
posted by Saxon Kane at 3:09 PM on December 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 3:09 PM on December 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
I thought it was kind of bad. Ok, there's lots of mediocre white rappers who become stars, but 'becoming a star' is not synonymous with skill in any music genre. So points off there. I'm sorry the most popular rappers are not the best ones - it separated by the mid '80s, so a long time ago.
Using popularity signifiers to identify future Super Bowl artists - I mean LOL. Usher is the next one. LOL. Playing the Super Bowl basically means your music is generic enough not to get too many people to change the channel. And during the rock era, they mostly featured marching bands and Up with People.
Second white people are 75% of the US population - so the purchasing power of blacks just isn't the same. Everything blacks come up with that whites halfway like will be swallowed by whites due to the differences. It's no different with Indian and Asian musical formats. He just can't see it because those aren't popular enough to be subsumed, at least not at the same level. This is part of white supremacy - that white people are a huge percentage of the US population that dominates every other 'race'.
Thirdly, the primary factor of rap music, when it first became popular, was songs about robbing and killing people and being rich (gangster rap), and white people still love that kind of media - movies, books etc, so heck yeah it was going to become popular with kids. Is the average rapper rapping about their real life - not really. They are rapping a made-up form that he or she may be a bit closer to than your average upper middle class white, but the aspiration still exists. And the switch over happened 30 plus years ago.
On the other hand, I thought the thing about German food was kinda unintentionally funny - it's just food now, the Germans have lost it. Kinda the same with rap music.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:15 PM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
Using popularity signifiers to identify future Super Bowl artists - I mean LOL. Usher is the next one. LOL. Playing the Super Bowl basically means your music is generic enough not to get too many people to change the channel. And during the rock era, they mostly featured marching bands and Up with People.
Second white people are 75% of the US population - so the purchasing power of blacks just isn't the same. Everything blacks come up with that whites halfway like will be swallowed by whites due to the differences. It's no different with Indian and Asian musical formats. He just can't see it because those aren't popular enough to be subsumed, at least not at the same level. This is part of white supremacy - that white people are a huge percentage of the US population that dominates every other 'race'.
Thirdly, the primary factor of rap music, when it first became popular, was songs about robbing and killing people and being rich (gangster rap), and white people still love that kind of media - movies, books etc, so heck yeah it was going to become popular with kids. Is the average rapper rapping about their real life - not really. They are rapping a made-up form that he or she may be a bit closer to than your average upper middle class white, but the aspiration still exists. And the switch over happened 30 plus years ago.
On the other hand, I thought the thing about German food was kinda unintentionally funny - it's just food now, the Germans have lost it. Kinda the same with rap music.
posted by The_Vegetables at 3:15 PM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
My first reaction is to find this somewhat reductive and offensive. FD front-loads his argument with a lot of racial stereotyping, avoids the complexities of the development of musical styles and genres, and goes straight in with a conclusion that he treats as foregone.
But . . . I'm going to go through it again.
I feel like I'm missing something
posted by pt68 at 3:21 PM on December 21, 2023
But . . . I'm going to go through it again.
I feel like I'm missing something
posted by pt68 at 3:21 PM on December 21, 2023
I don't know that I would have described Public Enemy as "white friendly".
They were 100% not considered "white friendly" back in the day, and that was part of their appeal.
Public Enemy, Security of the First World, and all allied forces are traveling west to head off a white supremacy scheming to destroy the national celebration of Martin Luther King's birthday. Public Enemy believes that the powers that be in the states of New Hampshire and Arizona have found psychological discomfort in paying tribute to a black man who tried to teach white people the meaning of civilization. Good luck brothers, show 'em what you got...
posted by praemunire at 3:26 PM on December 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
They were 100% not considered "white friendly" back in the day, and that was part of their appeal.
Public Enemy, Security of the First World, and all allied forces are traveling west to head off a white supremacy scheming to destroy the national celebration of Martin Luther King's birthday. Public Enemy believes that the powers that be in the states of New Hampshire and Arizona have found psychological discomfort in paying tribute to a black man who tried to teach white people the meaning of civilization. Good luck brothers, show 'em what you got...
posted by praemunire at 3:26 PM on December 21, 2023 [2 favorites]
no macklemore? :P
i really liked mac miller's posthumous circles; i'll check out j cole's 4 your eyez only.
> (By the way, an interesting spiritual companion to this piece is Adam Neely's Is Laufey Jazz?).
Nardwuar vs. Laufey!
also btw re: jazz rap, the story of nujabes
posted by kliuless at 7:32 PM on December 21, 2023
i really liked mac miller's posthumous circles; i'll check out j cole's 4 your eyez only.
> (By the way, an interesting spiritual companion to this piece is Adam Neely's Is Laufey Jazz?).
Nardwuar vs. Laufey!
also btw re: jazz rap, the story of nujabes
posted by kliuless at 7:32 PM on December 21, 2023
I like the video, but I'm a little caught off-guard that I can't seem to find any information on who FD Signifier actually is. Which, I can understand wanting to protect your identity on a very hostile internet, especially if you're a teacher, but still, it is weird.
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:35 AM on December 22, 2023
posted by grumpybear69 at 7:35 AM on December 22, 2023
But I'm hard-pressed to think of a "jazz Elvis"
Apparently Pat Metheny (jazz guitarist) wasn't. TLDR: He doesn't think much of Kenny G (jazz saxophonist), and provides a solid historical basis for his opinion.
Using popularity signifiers to identify future Super Bowl artists - I mean LOL. Usher is the next one. LOL. Playing the Super Bowl basically means your music is generic enough not to get too many people to change the channel.
That may have been true before the NFL hired Jay-Z to produce the Super Bowl halftime shows. However, I wouldn't call musical artists such as Shakira, the Weeknd, or Mary J Blige (each of whom performed in one of the last three halftimes) "generic."
The standard now seems to be how likely the artist is to be heard on an iHeart radio station which plays a mix of current hits and popular oldies from the aughts forward. Usher has a deep catalog in R&B and pop spanning the past 25+ years.
posted by fuse theorem at 8:02 AM on December 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Apparently Pat Metheny (jazz guitarist) wasn't. TLDR: He doesn't think much of Kenny G (jazz saxophonist), and provides a solid historical basis for his opinion.
Using popularity signifiers to identify future Super Bowl artists - I mean LOL. Usher is the next one. LOL. Playing the Super Bowl basically means your music is generic enough not to get too many people to change the channel.
That may have been true before the NFL hired Jay-Z to produce the Super Bowl halftime shows. However, I wouldn't call musical artists such as Shakira, the Weeknd, or Mary J Blige (each of whom performed in one of the last three halftimes) "generic."
The standard now seems to be how likely the artist is to be heard on an iHeart radio station which plays a mix of current hits and popular oldies from the aughts forward. Usher has a deep catalog in R&B and pop spanning the past 25+ years.
posted by fuse theorem at 8:02 AM on December 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Thank you, hippybear, for mentioning Falco. An artist who was *way* ahead of his time. He's so much more than Rock Me Amadeus.
posted by Wild_Eep at 1:44 PM on December 22, 2023
posted by Wild_Eep at 1:44 PM on December 22, 2023
That may have been true before the NFL hired Jay-Z to produce the Super Bowl halftime shows. However, I wouldn't call musical artists such as Shakira, the Weeknd, or Mary J Blige (each of whom performed in one of the last three halftimes) "generic."
The standard now seems to be how likely the artist is to be heard on an iHeart radio station which plays a mix of current hits and popular oldies from the aughts forward. Usher has a deep catalog in R&B and pop spanning the past 25+ years.
I would. They fit perfectly in the generic serviceable pop/hip hop genre. Jay-Z is the epitome of hip/hop generic.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:50 PM on December 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
The standard now seems to be how likely the artist is to be heard on an iHeart radio station which plays a mix of current hits and popular oldies from the aughts forward. Usher has a deep catalog in R&B and pop spanning the past 25+ years.
I would. They fit perfectly in the generic serviceable pop/hip hop genre. Jay-Z is the epitome of hip/hop generic.
posted by The_Vegetables at 2:50 PM on December 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
Okay, after having felt like I got punched in the mouth for even saying anything, I went back and watched this for a second time, and came back and read the comments here...
And I do think he's got some blind spots. If he's going to really discuss white rap that was influential, he really HAS to mention West End Girls by Pet Shop Boys, and also probably One Night In Bangkok by Murray Head written by the guys from ABBA. And early on a comment here alluded to Holiday Rap, a late-Eighties Euro-rap masterpiece of sorts.
So, I guess the way rap might have gone across the pond and gotten reflected back upon the US from either the UK or Sweden or Austria... I mean, none of those have a hip hop basis behind their rap, I guess. And the conversation about the separation of hip hop and rap is something he only barely notices.
As in, the real existence of Rock Island, a group rap song from the late Fifties, where different members of the group even trade off solos and argue for attention. It's from The Music Man, but it's way more proto-rap than Blondie, really.
I really am only trying to talk about his very obvious blind spots, ones which are glaringly obvious to me in a sort of neon sign sort of way. And that's really mostly because I'm Whitey McWhite Guy who isn't one of those white guys who listens to rap like FD listens to rap.
Anyway, I wasn't trying to poison the conversation.. Falco is such a giant in his home country... and when it comes to what might be considered "living the big time lifestyle", he did that completely. If he was bragging on a track, he was bragging about his own life but he was doing it in two or three languages at once. His novelty status here in the US belies what he meant elsewhere.
posted by hippybear at 8:33 PM on December 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
And I do think he's got some blind spots. If he's going to really discuss white rap that was influential, he really HAS to mention West End Girls by Pet Shop Boys, and also probably One Night In Bangkok by Murray Head written by the guys from ABBA. And early on a comment here alluded to Holiday Rap, a late-Eighties Euro-rap masterpiece of sorts.
So, I guess the way rap might have gone across the pond and gotten reflected back upon the US from either the UK or Sweden or Austria... I mean, none of those have a hip hop basis behind their rap, I guess. And the conversation about the separation of hip hop and rap is something he only barely notices.
As in, the real existence of Rock Island, a group rap song from the late Fifties, where different members of the group even trade off solos and argue for attention. It's from The Music Man, but it's way more proto-rap than Blondie, really.
I really am only trying to talk about his very obvious blind spots, ones which are glaringly obvious to me in a sort of neon sign sort of way. And that's really mostly because I'm Whitey McWhite Guy who isn't one of those white guys who listens to rap like FD listens to rap.
Anyway, I wasn't trying to poison the conversation.. Falco is such a giant in his home country... and when it comes to what might be considered "living the big time lifestyle", he did that completely. If he was bragging on a track, he was bragging about his own life but he was doing it in two or three languages at once. His novelty status here in the US belies what he meant elsewhere.
posted by hippybear at 8:33 PM on December 22, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't know that I would have described Public Enemy as "white friendly".
According to this Wikipedia article, more than half the sales of "Fear of a Black Planet" were to white listeners.
(Anecdotally- I was a white college kid when this came out, and *everyone* I knew, in my white college-kid world, had that album)
posted by ManInSuit at 10:57 PM on December 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
According to this Wikipedia article, more than half the sales of "Fear of a Black Planet" were to white listeners.
(Anecdotally- I was a white college kid when this came out, and *everyone* I knew, in my white college-kid world, had that album)
posted by ManInSuit at 10:57 PM on December 22, 2023 [2 favorites]
From the Adam Neely piece: "Genre is more than just the sound of the music. It's also at the bottom the culture and the community of the people that make the music and listen to the music and talk about the music. And then also at the top, it's the institutions that promote the music, that market the music and then present the music in live performance situations."
I think what distinguishes Falco or West End Girls or One Night in Bangkok from Blondie is that the first three don't have the connection to the people or the institutions. Blondie (as cringe as that song may sound to my ears today) did have at least some connection to the hip-hop artists of her time, at a time when that would have been completely foreign to the vast majority of white Americans.
Or to put it another way, it might be necessary to distinguish rapping from a musical or vocal technique from hip-hop as a specific genre of music.
posted by Slothrup at 7:50 AM on December 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think what distinguishes Falco or West End Girls or One Night in Bangkok from Blondie is that the first three don't have the connection to the people or the institutions. Blondie (as cringe as that song may sound to my ears today) did have at least some connection to the hip-hop artists of her time, at a time when that would have been completely foreign to the vast majority of white Americans.
Or to put it another way, it might be necessary to distinguish rapping from a musical or vocal technique from hip-hop as a specific genre of music.
posted by Slothrup at 7:50 AM on December 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
none of those have a hip hop basis behind their rap, I guess
Or to put it another way, it might be necessary to distinguish rapping from a musical or vocal technique from hip-hop as a specific genre of music.
Yeah that’s one way to put it. Or, I mean - I like “West End Girls” and I can see how the whole package of it was influenced by hip hop and other contemporary Black music, it makes sense that this is what a couple of British guys would make of rap in 1984, but listening any time after about 1987 I almost wouldn’t even think of it as rap, because the craft of rapping was evolving rapidly. When Eric B. & Rakim released their second album, the Pet Shop Boys version of rapping still sounded like this.
posted by atoxyl at 11:49 AM on December 23, 2023
Or to put it another way, it might be necessary to distinguish rapping from a musical or vocal technique from hip-hop as a specific genre of music.
Yeah that’s one way to put it. Or, I mean - I like “West End Girls” and I can see how the whole package of it was influenced by hip hop and other contemporary Black music, it makes sense that this is what a couple of British guys would make of rap in 1984, but listening any time after about 1987 I almost wouldn’t even think of it as rap, because the craft of rapping was evolving rapidly. When Eric B. & Rakim released their second album, the Pet Shop Boys version of rapping still sounded like this.
posted by atoxyl at 11:49 AM on December 23, 2023
(which I’m not saying is bad, just that at that point it comes off more as “spoken word” than “rap”)
posted by atoxyl at 11:53 AM on December 23, 2023
posted by atoxyl at 11:53 AM on December 23, 2023
I don't know that I would have described Public Enemy as "white friendly".
I mean,
*Points left
"Photo of Chuck D and Flav in the Minor Threat Shirts*
*Points Right
*Whole Ass 'Bring the Noise' Crossover Track with Anthrax
And I say this as a white kid who absolutely loved and loves this to this day...but Public Enemy marketed themselves to white kids, I mean it s just facts
posted by eustatic at 2:58 PM on December 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mean,
*Points left
"Photo of Chuck D and Flav in the Minor Threat Shirts*
*Points Right
*Whole Ass 'Bring the Noise' Crossover Track with Anthrax
And I say this as a white kid who absolutely loved and loves this to this day...but Public Enemy marketed themselves to white kids, I mean it s just facts
posted by eustatic at 2:58 PM on December 25, 2023 [1 favorite]
white people are 75% of the US population -
Some clarity, this bugged me. White people had 85% of the buying power in 1990, vs 65% of the population, and less than 70% of the buying power in 2021, at just over 60% of the population
African American buying power has doubled, Hispanic has tripled, but the structure of the market is similar. Maybe we should only be looking at under 25 population, but I dunno if the buying power data would support a breakdown
posted by eustatic at 12:44 PM on December 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Some clarity, this bugged me. White people had 85% of the buying power in 1990, vs 65% of the population, and less than 70% of the buying power in 2021, at just over 60% of the population
African American buying power has doubled, Hispanic has tripled, but the structure of the market is similar. Maybe we should only be looking at under 25 population, but I dunno if the buying power data would support a breakdown
posted by eustatic at 12:44 PM on December 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
But I'm hard-pressed to think of a "jazz Elvis"
LaRocca, an Italian American, claimed to have invented jazz. He arguably made the first recording, in New York.
To this day, your Italian American uncles will not let you forget that "we invented jazz"
Is selling one million records in 1917 Elvis level? Buddy Bolden never even cut a record, and is buried in Holt cemetery, so...
posted by eustatic at 1:01 PM on December 30, 2023
LaRocca, an Italian American, claimed to have invented jazz. He arguably made the first recording, in New York.
To this day, your Italian American uncles will not let you forget that "we invented jazz"
Is selling one million records in 1917 Elvis level? Buddy Bolden never even cut a record, and is buried in Holt cemetery, so...
posted by eustatic at 1:01 PM on December 30, 2023
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(This is really good, though.)
posted by mhoye at 6:44 AM on December 21, 2023 [1 favorite]