The Black Sun of Democracy
April 13, 2024 5:29 AM Subscribe
The Haudenosaunee Confederacy is arguably one of the oldest continuously functioning democracies in the world, and greatly influenced the thinking of the founders of the United States. This post is about the argument over just how old it is, why that matters, and what eclipses have to do with it.
The Haudenosaunee have always maintained that their Confederacy is very old, like, about a thousand years. Others are invested in arguing that it's not that old, and thus not all that good or special.
But here is another reason – beyond the pleasure of watching a bunch of stuffy academic racists who picked the wrong hill to die on get hoist by their own petard, (and, yes, that is foreshadowing) – to investigate the age of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, a reason that is quite delightful and wondrous.
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Siderea is a psychotherapist with a background in software development. She writes on topics in the intersection of psychology, anthropology, and sociology.
The Haudenosaunee have always maintained that their Confederacy is very old, like, about a thousand years. Others are invested in arguing that it's not that old, and thus not all that good or special.
But here is another reason – beyond the pleasure of watching a bunch of stuffy academic racists who picked the wrong hill to die on get hoist by their own petard, (and, yes, that is foreshadowing) – to investigate the age of the Haudenosaunee Confederacy, a reason that is quite delightful and wondrous.
-----
Siderea is a psychotherapist with a background in software development. She writes on topics in the intersection of psychology, anthropology, and sociology.
If you don't mind video, YouTube channel Historia Civilis has a very interesting explainer on how the Confederacy worked politically.
posted by Rhaomi at 6:06 AM on April 13
posted by Rhaomi at 6:06 AM on April 13
Extra History on Hiawatha who formed the confederacy.
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:29 AM on April 13 [2 favorites]
posted by Your Childhood Pet Rock at 6:29 AM on April 13 [2 favorites]
Really interesting. Thanks.
posted by SoberHighland at 6:41 AM on April 13
posted by SoberHighland at 6:41 AM on April 13
I've been wanting to learn more about the influence Native Americans had on Europeans in the 18th century. I first learned about the bi-directional exchange in The Dawn of Everything which has a chapter or two on it. Graeber and Wengrow also write Hiding in Plain Sight:
Democracy’s indigenous origins in the Americas which is mostly about the polity that the Spanish encountered in Tlaxcala, in Mesoamerica. Far to the south of the Haudenosaunee but another reminder that political structures in the New World were complex and not like European feudal society.
Has anyone read On Savage Shores: How Indigenous Americans Discovered Europe? Following up on another thread in Dawn of Everything, about the experiences of New World people who travelled to Europe, interacted with the intellectuals and politicians there, and communicated their experiences. Been meaning to read it.
posted by Nelson at 7:39 AM on April 13 [5 favorites]
Democracy’s indigenous origins in the Americas which is mostly about the polity that the Spanish encountered in Tlaxcala, in Mesoamerica. Far to the south of the Haudenosaunee but another reminder that political structures in the New World were complex and not like European feudal society.
Has anyone read On Savage Shores: How Indigenous Americans Discovered Europe? Following up on another thread in Dawn of Everything, about the experiences of New World people who travelled to Europe, interacted with the intellectuals and politicians there, and communicated their experiences. Been meaning to read it.
posted by Nelson at 7:39 AM on April 13 [5 favorites]
Indigenous Continent is a great book for anyone interested in this stuff.
There’s actually a decent amount of work on proto-democracy (David Stasavage has a bunch of stuff on this). Przerworskis definition is the best: “democracy happens when the losing party voluntarily gives up their office”. Hard to say if that happens in many of these older regimes. Democracy, in my view, is in practice a continuum
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:11 AM on April 13 [2 favorites]
There’s actually a decent amount of work on proto-democracy (David Stasavage has a bunch of stuff on this). Przerworskis definition is the best: “democracy happens when the losing party voluntarily gives up their office”. Hard to say if that happens in many of these older regimes. Democracy, in my view, is in practice a continuum
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:11 AM on April 13 [2 favorites]
There's a children's cartoon about Hiawatha's journey to form the confederacy that I used to watch over and over... Not sure what it was called though.
The post was wonderful, thanks for sharing.
posted by subdee at 9:45 AM on April 13
The post was wonderful, thanks for sharing.
posted by subdee at 9:45 AM on April 13
Lots about this in Graeber & Wengrow’s The Dawn of Everything
posted by toodleydoodley at 10:11 AM on April 13
posted by toodleydoodley at 10:11 AM on April 13
After reading The White Roots of Peace, if found it interesting that Dekanawida was of Wyandot/Huron origin. Their entire nation was completely destroyed in wars with the Haudenosaunee after they suffered from smallpox devastations.
posted by ovvl at 5:21 PM on April 13
posted by ovvl at 5:21 PM on April 13
Rhaomi: "If you don't mind video, YouTube channel Historia Civilis has a very interesting explainer on how the Confederacy worked politically."
Whoops, just realized this was a broken link; this one should work.
posted by Rhaomi at 11:03 AM on April 14
Whoops, just realized this was a broken link; this one should work.
posted by Rhaomi at 11:03 AM on April 14
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posted by seanmpuckett at 5:37 AM on April 13 [2 favorites]