Protesting for Gaza on US universities
April 22, 2024 7:20 AM Subscribe
Pro-Palestinian orgs at universities across the world protest in support of "Columbia Gaza Solidarity Encampment" Columbia Spectator, the newspaper run by undergrad Columbia University students, published an editorial asking if Columbia University is in crisis, stating: Columbia’s crisis is not as the committee has attempted to define it—a characterization stemming from the belief that the University has become a hotbed of antisemitic thought and behavior. Rather, the crisis is rooted in a lack of genuine community engagement on the part of the administration, as well as a failure to fulfill its duty of care to all affiliates.
Rep. Elise Stefanik (R-N.Y.) issued a statement on Sunday calling on University President Minouche Shafik to resign immediately and the board of trustees to appoint someone “who will protect Jewish students and enforce school policies.”
Meanwhile, students have reported a rise in antisemitic incidents as the Gaza Solidarity Encampment gains more publicity and outsiders attempt to come on campus. Laura Nour-Walton reports on what happened for The Nation: While she did not join the encampment for fear of disciplinary action, Roxanne said that “this cause is really important to me as an anti-Zionist Jew. I wanted to help the people who were brave enough to put their bodies and academics on the line.” Other supporters went to the dining halls to bring armfuls of coffees for the protesters. And when Maryam Alwan, an undergraduate in the encampment, mentioned having dry eyes, one student rushed to a nearby Duane Reade and returned with eye drops in hand.
Yale has arrested over 45 pro-divestment protesters.
On the West Coast, USC has cancelled all commencement speakers after canceling its valedictorian's speech. UCLA's Daily Bruin editorial board accuses USC of infringing on Asna Tabassum's free speech rights for fear of pro-Israel hecklers.
Rep. Elise Stefanik (R-N.Y.) issued a statement on Sunday calling on University President Minouche Shafik to resign immediately and the board of trustees to appoint someone “who will protect Jewish students and enforce school policies.”
Meanwhile, students have reported a rise in antisemitic incidents as the Gaza Solidarity Encampment gains more publicity and outsiders attempt to come on campus. Laura Nour-Walton reports on what happened for The Nation: While she did not join the encampment for fear of disciplinary action, Roxanne said that “this cause is really important to me as an anti-Zionist Jew. I wanted to help the people who were brave enough to put their bodies and academics on the line.” Other supporters went to the dining halls to bring armfuls of coffees for the protesters. And when Maryam Alwan, an undergraduate in the encampment, mentioned having dry eyes, one student rushed to a nearby Duane Reade and returned with eye drops in hand.
Yale has arrested over 45 pro-divestment protesters.
On the West Coast, USC has cancelled all commencement speakers after canceling its valedictorian's speech. UCLA's Daily Bruin editorial board accuses USC of infringing on Asna Tabassum's free speech rights for fear of pro-Israel hecklers.
Harvard Yard Closed Until Friday in Anticipation of Pro-Palestine Protests
posted by Horace Rumpole at 7:29 AM on April 22 [4 favorites]
posted by Horace Rumpole at 7:29 AM on April 22 [4 favorites]
Let us hope that Hochul and Biden don't try to turn Columbia into Kent State in search of the all-important racist centrist vote.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:17 AM on April 22 [16 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:17 AM on April 22 [16 favorites]
Balance is important:
on the one hand you have people saying some profoundly disgusting, anti semitic things.
On the other you have two million people in camps being denied food, water, basic medical care, and shelter.
This is clearly ethnic cleansing, and I do not think the anti semetic rhetoric is important to address until the large scale starving of the Palestinian people is addressed.
I suspect that the Jewish people will come to regret the silencing these protests, as in the future concerns of antisemitism will be taken less seriously because of their bad faith use in this instance.
posted by constraint at 8:18 AM on April 22 [56 favorites]
on the one hand you have people saying some profoundly disgusting, anti semitic things.
On the other you have two million people in camps being denied food, water, basic medical care, and shelter.
This is clearly ethnic cleansing, and I do not think the anti semetic rhetoric is important to address until the large scale starving of the Palestinian people is addressed.
I suspect that the Jewish people will come to regret the silencing these protests, as in the future concerns of antisemitism will be taken less seriously because of their bad faith use in this instance.
posted by constraint at 8:18 AM on April 22 [56 favorites]
And here we have the problem where even, or perhaps especially, in a world of ubiquitious communication doubt, uncertainty, and confusion and disinformation remains a useful tool for oppressors everywhere.
If, in fact, Jewish students are being harassed and threatened that's completely unjustifiable and morally wrong.
But if, in fact, oppressor allies are maliciously using false claims of harassment to cut off protest and attempt to shame their critics into silence then that's unjustifiable and morally wrong too.
And worst of all, anyone who's been to a protest knows there's always an asshole or even a group of assholes who do try to harass people and generally cause problems. So I'm in the morally dubious position of saying "if there was harassment above and beyond the usual asshole contingent you find at any protest". Which isn't nearly as cleancut as we'd like it to be and if there really is malicious intent among the majority of protesters it provides them with excuses and justifications to continue doing wrong.
Given the way Israel's supporters have been weaponizing blatantly false accusations of antisemitism I don't think it's exactly wrong to start from a skeptical position WRT claims of harassment by Jewish students.
But that runs smack into the proper behavior of believing victims and acknowledging the long historic wrongs and ongoing actual antiemitism facing Jews worldwide.
In a world where we SHOULD have high resolution 4k video of everything and no doubt at all about what's really happening we have a miasma of confusion and FUD.
On balance I side with the protesters. Pro-genocide forces are known liars and protest is sufficiently messy that I'd like to see solid video evidence of harassment before I agree with claims of harassment.
But I'd really like to have some actual clarity here.
posted by sotonohito at 8:21 AM on April 22 [52 favorites]
If, in fact, Jewish students are being harassed and threatened that's completely unjustifiable and morally wrong.
But if, in fact, oppressor allies are maliciously using false claims of harassment to cut off protest and attempt to shame their critics into silence then that's unjustifiable and morally wrong too.
And worst of all, anyone who's been to a protest knows there's always an asshole or even a group of assholes who do try to harass people and generally cause problems. So I'm in the morally dubious position of saying "if there was harassment above and beyond the usual asshole contingent you find at any protest". Which isn't nearly as cleancut as we'd like it to be and if there really is malicious intent among the majority of protesters it provides them with excuses and justifications to continue doing wrong.
Given the way Israel's supporters have been weaponizing blatantly false accusations of antisemitism I don't think it's exactly wrong to start from a skeptical position WRT claims of harassment by Jewish students.
But that runs smack into the proper behavior of believing victims and acknowledging the long historic wrongs and ongoing actual antiemitism facing Jews worldwide.
In a world where we SHOULD have high resolution 4k video of everything and no doubt at all about what's really happening we have a miasma of confusion and FUD.
On balance I side with the protesters. Pro-genocide forces are known liars and protest is sufficiently messy that I'd like to see solid video evidence of harassment before I agree with claims of harassment.
But I'd really like to have some actual clarity here.
posted by sotonohito at 8:21 AM on April 22 [52 favorites]
Norman Finkelstein, "Questions About the Shoah" Part 1
posted by elkevelvet at 8:29 AM on April 22 [1 favorite]
posted by elkevelvet at 8:29 AM on April 22 [1 favorite]
a rise in antisemitic incidents as the Gaza Solidarity Encampment gains more publicity
I read through that article, and while there are actual antisemitic incidents, many seems to just be pro-israel protesters saying that people saying anti-israel things at them are being antisemitic. The article does not differentiate the two, and it's very very harmful to conflate anti-israel as being antisemitic.
posted by numaner at 8:34 AM on April 22 [77 favorites]
I read through that article, and while there are actual antisemitic incidents, many seems to just be pro-israel protesters saying that people saying anti-israel things at them are being antisemitic. The article does not differentiate the two, and it's very very harmful to conflate anti-israel as being antisemitic.
posted by numaner at 8:34 AM on April 22 [77 favorites]
Yeah, at this point "anti-semitic" is an unfortunately deeply hijacked term.
Which is terrible because this opportunistic use of the term not only silences people from fighting against genocide (as intended), but also muddles actual anti-semitism, which is very much alive in the world.
In the USA, I notice this term is weaponized most often by evangelical Christians.
posted by splitpeasoup at 8:44 AM on April 22 [20 favorites]
Which is terrible because this opportunistic use of the term not only silences people from fighting against genocide (as intended), but also muddles actual anti-semitism, which is very much alive in the world.
In the USA, I notice this term is weaponized most often by evangelical Christians.
posted by splitpeasoup at 8:44 AM on April 22 [20 favorites]
An op-ed from Jewish faculty published 4/10/2024:
To be sure, antisemitism is a grave concern that should be scrutinized alongside racism, sexism, Islamophobia, homophobia, and all other forms of hate. These hateful ideologies exist everywhere and we would be ignorant to believe that they don’t exist at Columbia. When antisemitism rears its head, it should be swiftly denounced, and its perpetrators held to account. However, it is absurd to claim that antisemitism—“discrimination, prejudice, hostility or violence against Jews as Jews,” according to the Jerusalem Declaration’s definition—is rampant on Columbia’s campus. To argue that taking a stand against Israel’s war on Gaza is antisemitic is to pervert the meaning of the term.
Labeling pro-Palestinian expression as anti-Jewish hate speech requires a dangerous and false conflation of Zionism with Jewishness, of political ideology with identity. This conflation betrays a woefully inaccurate understanding—and disingenuous misrepresentation—of Jewish history, identity, and politics. It erases more than a century of debates among Jews themselves about the nature of a Jewish homeland in the biblical Land of Israel, including Israel’s status as a Jewish nation-state. It dismisses the experiences of the post-Zionist, non-Zionist, and anti-Zionist Jews who work, study, and live on our campus.
Many of the students participating in the Gaza solidarity encampment are themselves Jewish.
posted by toastyk at 8:49 AM on April 22 [67 favorites]
To be sure, antisemitism is a grave concern that should be scrutinized alongside racism, sexism, Islamophobia, homophobia, and all other forms of hate. These hateful ideologies exist everywhere and we would be ignorant to believe that they don’t exist at Columbia. When antisemitism rears its head, it should be swiftly denounced, and its perpetrators held to account. However, it is absurd to claim that antisemitism—“discrimination, prejudice, hostility or violence against Jews as Jews,” according to the Jerusalem Declaration’s definition—is rampant on Columbia’s campus. To argue that taking a stand against Israel’s war on Gaza is antisemitic is to pervert the meaning of the term.
Labeling pro-Palestinian expression as anti-Jewish hate speech requires a dangerous and false conflation of Zionism with Jewishness, of political ideology with identity. This conflation betrays a woefully inaccurate understanding—and disingenuous misrepresentation—of Jewish history, identity, and politics. It erases more than a century of debates among Jews themselves about the nature of a Jewish homeland in the biblical Land of Israel, including Israel’s status as a Jewish nation-state. It dismisses the experiences of the post-Zionist, non-Zionist, and anti-Zionist Jews who work, study, and live on our campus.
Many of the students participating in the Gaza solidarity encampment are themselves Jewish.
posted by toastyk at 8:49 AM on April 22 [67 favorites]
if it matters, to clarify my statement, I am purely talking about my own personal involvement. i am happy to, and frequently mention to others that i support the pro palestine movement in general, give money to palestine and oppose the actions of israel (as well as its ability to somehow speak for the diaspora... but that's a whole different issue).
on the other hand - i certainly do not appreciate being pressured to mention this, a pressure i have felt repeatedly over the past 6 months.
i guess it's better than having to explain to christians that i'm not a hardcore zionist when they learn i'm jewish. sort of.
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 8:54 AM on April 22 [13 favorites]
on the other hand - i certainly do not appreciate being pressured to mention this, a pressure i have felt repeatedly over the past 6 months.
i guess it's better than having to explain to christians that i'm not a hardcore zionist when they learn i'm jewish. sort of.
posted by AlbertCalavicci at 8:54 AM on April 22 [13 favorites]
there was a redneck in a Ford F-250 holding the flag of Israel out of his window while cruising by the Palestinian prayer demonstration when I was visiting Dealey Plaza the Friday before this month's eclipse.
just a little intersectional shittiness on display there.
posted by torokunai at 9:06 AM on April 22 [9 favorites]
just a little intersectional shittiness on display there.
posted by torokunai at 9:06 AM on April 22 [9 favorites]
How is it possible that with every incident I can watch videos of horrendous, blatantly antisemitic statements and chants with signs to match and then come here to find a post explaining there is no antisemitism and even if there were it wouldn't matter because other things are more important? Just go look up the explosive year over year growth of antisemitism in the US and UK and consider that nothing should be an excuse for it.
There is more than enough to criticise about Israel, whether its history, its current government, or its current actions in Gaza, without blindly propagating falsehoods. And yet every time, that is what I see.
What happened to this website that this became permissible? Desirable, even. A lot of you need to wake up and figure out how to support causes without supporting every hateful asshole who claims to share the cause.
posted by seraphine at 9:14 AM on April 22 [34 favorites]
There is more than enough to criticise about Israel, whether its history, its current government, or its current actions in Gaza, without blindly propagating falsehoods. And yet every time, that is what I see.
What happened to this website that this became permissible? Desirable, even. A lot of you need to wake up and figure out how to support causes without supporting every hateful asshole who claims to share the cause.
posted by seraphine at 9:14 AM on April 22 [34 favorites]
I read through that article, and while there are actual antisemitic incidents, many seems to just be pro-israel protesters saying that people saying anti-israel things at them are being antisemitic. The article does not differentiate the two, and it's very very harmful to conflate anti-israel as being antisemitic.
I broadly agree with this take—see this Jewish Currents podcast, for example, and the research by Eitan Hersh that it draws upon—but I think there's also a tendency to view this conflation as always very deliberate, calculating, and instrumental. It's not (at least, not always): students can be facing political ostracism rather than bona fide racial or religious discrimination and still feel genuinely uncomfortable, anxious, and even in danger. Recognizing this fact doesn't necessarily mean we should bow to specific policy demands these students make, but I think they do deserve empathy and should (by default) be treated as good-faith actors with imperfect priors.
The same can't really be said of non-students—social and traditional media figures—who amplify these messages about antisemitism. These more often are done for nakedly political ends, and should be treated with suspicion. (Looking at you, Shai Davidai.) Plenty of students in various contexts (including, but not limited to, Columbia) have drawn attention to this dynamic.
Many of the students participating in the Gaza solidarity encampment are themselves Jewish.
One of the issues I have with this particular thread of argument is that it misses a lot of intersectional nuance. Not to claim that Zionism is a form of DEI or anything—but if Jewish Zionists are targeted more often than Christian ones, that would still be antisemitic (much as how, if I claimed to hate redheads but only directed this towards red-haired women, you might justifiably accuse me of misogyny). Ofc this is all hypothetical until further reportage, but I'm not sure it's entirely unjustified.
posted by the tartare yolk at 9:17 AM on April 22 [5 favorites]
I broadly agree with this take—see this Jewish Currents podcast, for example, and the research by Eitan Hersh that it draws upon—but I think there's also a tendency to view this conflation as always very deliberate, calculating, and instrumental. It's not (at least, not always): students can be facing political ostracism rather than bona fide racial or religious discrimination and still feel genuinely uncomfortable, anxious, and even in danger. Recognizing this fact doesn't necessarily mean we should bow to specific policy demands these students make, but I think they do deserve empathy and should (by default) be treated as good-faith actors with imperfect priors.
The same can't really be said of non-students—social and traditional media figures—who amplify these messages about antisemitism. These more often are done for nakedly political ends, and should be treated with suspicion. (Looking at you, Shai Davidai.) Plenty of students in various contexts (including, but not limited to, Columbia) have drawn attention to this dynamic.
Many of the students participating in the Gaza solidarity encampment are themselves Jewish.
One of the issues I have with this particular thread of argument is that it misses a lot of intersectional nuance. Not to claim that Zionism is a form of DEI or anything—but if Jewish Zionists are targeted more often than Christian ones, that would still be antisemitic (much as how, if I claimed to hate redheads but only directed this towards red-haired women, you might justifiably accuse me of misogyny). Ofc this is all hypothetical until further reportage, but I'm not sure it's entirely unjustified.
posted by the tartare yolk at 9:17 AM on April 22 [5 favorites]
How is it possible that with every incident I can watch videos of horrendous, blatantly antisemitic statements and chants with signs to match
Links showing this for the Columbia protestors?
(Note that they, like me, like any random person who lives in the city, have zero control over what assholes are saying off-campus; for Columbia, "off-campus" is a very short distance away but embraces extremely busy streets traveled by all sorts of people at all hours. Neither Columbia nor any of the student groups have any jurisdiction over Broadway.)
posted by praemunire at 9:21 AM on April 22 [29 favorites]
Links showing this for the Columbia protestors?
(Note that they, like me, like any random person who lives in the city, have zero control over what assholes are saying off-campus; for Columbia, "off-campus" is a very short distance away but embraces extremely busy streets traveled by all sorts of people at all hours. Neither Columbia nor any of the student groups have any jurisdiction over Broadway.)
posted by praemunire at 9:21 AM on April 22 [29 favorites]
The claim that campus antisemitism is overblown despite concrete instances of hate speech and violence is itself antisemitic. It feeds off of the stereotype that Jews are cunning, devious, and unscrupulous, and will use both legal and illegal strategems to foment strife and disorder and gain the upper hand.
Columbia and Yale are not the first historical examples of this prejudicial view.
posted by Gordion Knott at 9:24 AM on April 22 [8 favorites]
Columbia and Yale are not the first historical examples of this prejudicial view.
posted by Gordion Knott at 9:24 AM on April 22 [8 favorites]
I feel like there's probably (based on some experience attending pro-Palestine events) a small percentage of conscious anti-semites who don't really care about Palestine but are eager for an opportunity to spew hate, a small percentage of Palestinians who will say anti-semitic things in the heat of the moment (something I have witnessed) and a slightly larger percentage of people who have really not thought things through and say things that are anti-semitic out of stupidity (conflating all Jews with Israel, saying ignorant things about Judaism) while believing that they are not being anti-semitic. This I've also witnessed.
I think this is a really dangerous moment because we've seen that this country has active, vocal fascist anti-semites who aren't just mumbling bigotry at the country club but actually organizing. Anything that gives those people cover has to be called out and stopped, so definitely, absolutely whenever there is either intentional anti-semitism or mistaken/ignorant language about Judaism or Israel, it has to be shut down.
The disingenuous claims that criticizing Israel or the IDF or supporting a Palestinian state is anti-semitic makes things much more dangerous. Partly because I think it pushes people toward unconscious but actual anti-semitism, based on constant "it's an insult to Judaism to criticize the IDF" messaging having an unconscious effect by repetition* and partly because it makes it much harder to identify and call out actual anti-semitism in the chaos and noise. It's not that it's hard for people to call out what they see, but where there's constant churn and hate and noise, it's hard to see.
This is all just really, really bad. We're getting both state-sponsored Islamophobia and fascist anti-semitism and the course of events means that they are reinforcing each other.
*I'm not trying to diminish individual culpability here; it's just that there's so much noise and chaos AND because many non-Jewish Americans don't know much about Judaism or know any Jewish people well enough to talk about this stuff with, it is easier for thin end of the wedge "I didn't understand that this was anti-semitic" ideas to take root.
posted by Frowner at 9:25 AM on April 22 [52 favorites]
I think this is a really dangerous moment because we've seen that this country has active, vocal fascist anti-semites who aren't just mumbling bigotry at the country club but actually organizing. Anything that gives those people cover has to be called out and stopped, so definitely, absolutely whenever there is either intentional anti-semitism or mistaken/ignorant language about Judaism or Israel, it has to be shut down.
The disingenuous claims that criticizing Israel or the IDF or supporting a Palestinian state is anti-semitic makes things much more dangerous. Partly because I think it pushes people toward unconscious but actual anti-semitism, based on constant "it's an insult to Judaism to criticize the IDF" messaging having an unconscious effect by repetition* and partly because it makes it much harder to identify and call out actual anti-semitism in the chaos and noise. It's not that it's hard for people to call out what they see, but where there's constant churn and hate and noise, it's hard to see.
This is all just really, really bad. We're getting both state-sponsored Islamophobia and fascist anti-semitism and the course of events means that they are reinforcing each other.
*I'm not trying to diminish individual culpability here; it's just that there's so much noise and chaos AND because many non-Jewish Americans don't know much about Judaism or know any Jewish people well enough to talk about this stuff with, it is easier for thin end of the wedge "I didn't understand that this was anti-semitic" ideas to take root.
posted by Frowner at 9:25 AM on April 22 [52 favorites]
Also, it is important to keep in mind that many of the claims of supposedly uncontrolled anti-Semitism on the Columbia campus are being made by Elise Stefanik, who is literally a supporter of Great Replacement theory, literally, and so if you think she actually cares about anti-Semitism on campus, as opposed to a general agenda of breaking the independence of universities, destroying free speech, and cowing liberals, you probably should not be allowed to cross the street without someone holding your hand. There are many difficult questions involved here, but that in particular is not a hard one.
posted by praemunire at 9:26 AM on April 22 [85 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 9:26 AM on April 22 [85 favorites]
Like, it's a "never let a serious crisis go to waste" situation - this is a terrible, terrible situation which will be turned to advantage by the US government (fascist arms-mongering in support of Israel) and GOP/neo-Nazi/Musk-ites who will seize the moment to promulgate outright anti-semitism.
posted by Frowner at 9:27 AM on April 22 [9 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 9:27 AM on April 22 [9 favorites]
This will be my last comment - I forgot to add that the "there's lots of anti-semitism at Columbia" lie is going to be used as cover for the state to crack down and as "see what a lie it is to claim that anti-semitism exists" by the fascists. This is just really bad, let's not kid ourselves.
posted by Frowner at 9:29 AM on April 22 [17 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 9:29 AM on April 22 [17 favorites]
I live next to NYPD headquarters which means my building gets these protestors every night. It is infuriating because I can't get to my building without showing my identification and pushing my way through them. The protestors drum until the wee hours of the morning (2am) and scare the children in the buildings (we have 400+ apartments of mostly families and seniors). Because the police have barricaded them right outside our building side, it feels like they are protesting us and not the NYPD. I bet you the NYPD are loving the overtime because they are being paid to watch the protestors protest. There has got to be a better way to prove their point instead of scaring little kids and seniors and keeping them awake at night.
posted by ichimunki at 9:34 AM on April 22 [11 favorites]
posted by ichimunki at 9:34 AM on April 22 [11 favorites]
A good litmus test is looking at how Alex Jones covers this. He enjoys calling Israel genocidal because he hates Jews, not because h cares for Palestinian life and well-being. In fact, he would happily see all of them die so that none of them might seek refuge in the US. Despite his hatred for the Jews, he also enjoys calling protesting students antisemitic because, well, he hates most college students. The last 6 months have been a rich feast for him, so a good metric is to ask yourself if something you are thinking might come out of Jones’ mouth; if so, take a long hard look at it.
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:35 AM on April 22 [19 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 9:35 AM on April 22 [19 favorites]
who is literally a supporter of Great Replacement theory, literally
In a happier place of my mind, a supporter is someone eager to let the supposed replacement happen.
posted by pwnguin at 9:36 AM on April 22 [1 favorite]
In a happier place of my mind, a supporter is someone eager to let the supposed replacement happen.
posted by pwnguin at 9:36 AM on April 22 [1 favorite]
It feeds off of the stereotype that Jews are cunning, devious, and unscrupulous,
(a) I think it's primarily Christian Evangelicals who see Jewish people as crash test dummies for their apocalypse and would-be American fascists who think Jewish people provide a great stick to beat (other) liberals with, or both, primarily engaging in fabrications/exaggerations/bad-faith interpretations in this instance (where they are fabrications/exaggerations/bad-faith interpretations, I would never say that there is no anti-Semitism in any American institution); but
(b) I don't think it's sustainable to take the position that any time you question the veracity or interpretation of a story told by a Jewish person you are reinforcing an anti-Semitic stereotype of Jewish people being deceptive. I think it is extremely important to fight that stereotype in your own thinking and to express your concerns in a way highly cognizant of the need not to promote that stereotype, but...sorry, Netanyahu, for example, is as unscrupulous as they come. He's in a tier with plenty of other Gentile leaders (many of whom, like Trump, are anti-Semitic), but he's in that tier.
posted by praemunire at 9:37 AM on April 22 [31 favorites]
(a) I think it's primarily Christian Evangelicals who see Jewish people as crash test dummies for their apocalypse and would-be American fascists who think Jewish people provide a great stick to beat (other) liberals with, or both, primarily engaging in fabrications/exaggerations/bad-faith interpretations in this instance (where they are fabrications/exaggerations/bad-faith interpretations, I would never say that there is no anti-Semitism in any American institution); but
(b) I don't think it's sustainable to take the position that any time you question the veracity or interpretation of a story told by a Jewish person you are reinforcing an anti-Semitic stereotype of Jewish people being deceptive. I think it is extremely important to fight that stereotype in your own thinking and to express your concerns in a way highly cognizant of the need not to promote that stereotype, but...sorry, Netanyahu, for example, is as unscrupulous as they come. He's in a tier with plenty of other Gentile leaders (many of whom, like Trump, are anti-Semitic), but he's in that tier.
posted by praemunire at 9:37 AM on April 22 [31 favorites]
What I see is a lot of going from "Israel is committing atrocities" (true) to "Israel shouldn't exist" to "I don't care about what happens to Israelis and neither should anyone else".
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 9:40 AM on April 22 [15 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 9:40 AM on April 22 [15 favorites]
How is it possible that with every incident I can watch videos of horrendous, blatantly antisemitic statements and chants with signs to match and then come here to find a post explaining there is no antisemitism and even if there were it wouldn't matter because other things are more important?
I do not think you are engaging with the featured post. Have you read the TFA? Are you grappling with the information in the TFA?
A lot of you need to wake up and figure out how to support causes without supporting every hateful asshole who claims to share the cause.
Two words: Representative Stefanik
I find, once again, the insertion of antisemitism concerns into a discussion featuring concrete information on actual impacts on people attempting to raise to prominence the genocide in Gaza--a situation where thousands of women and children are actually dying as a result of Israeli state policy--to be counter-productive.
At the very least, offer substantive contributions. But no: it's allegations and feelings. To which I say: students are getting expelled, people are dying.
posted by elkevelvet at 9:42 AM on April 22 [30 favorites]
I do not think you are engaging with the featured post. Have you read the TFA? Are you grappling with the information in the TFA?
A lot of you need to wake up and figure out how to support causes without supporting every hateful asshole who claims to share the cause.
Two words: Representative Stefanik
I find, once again, the insertion of antisemitism concerns into a discussion featuring concrete information on actual impacts on people attempting to raise to prominence the genocide in Gaza--a situation where thousands of women and children are actually dying as a result of Israeli state policy--to be counter-productive.
At the very least, offer substantive contributions. But no: it's allegations and feelings. To which I say: students are getting expelled, people are dying.
posted by elkevelvet at 9:42 AM on April 22 [30 favorites]
Based on what I know is happening at Yale because my nesting partner has been there at the protests and what I've read in CNN about those protests, the antisemitism is massively overblown and latched onto versus the points of the students who are protesting an ongoing atrocity.
I expect the same is true at Columbia.
Saying "Israel is a racist state" is not antisemitism. It's truth.
posted by kokaku at 9:43 AM on April 22 [36 favorites]
I expect the same is true at Columbia.
Saying "Israel is a racist state" is not antisemitism. It's truth.
posted by kokaku at 9:43 AM on April 22 [36 favorites]
Netanyahu, for example, is as unscrupulous as they come. He's in a tier with plenty of other Gentile leaders (many of whom, like Trump, are anti-Semitic), but he's in that tier.
But... nobody's discussing Netanyahu here, and I'm not sure that Gordion Knott was saying that you should always believe every statement said by every Jew. I think they're saying that the presumption of good faith that's extended to other ethnicities discussing their experiences of discrimination isn't extended to Jewish people—in this case, Jewish students—discussing antisemitism, and that this state of affairs has gained so much traction because of antisemitic ideas about Jewish deceit.
I don't think that's strictly true (sotonohito's comment above, for example, shows some really creditable wrestling with the moral issues around this discourse, and I certainly don't think it's coming from a place of antisemitism), but it's important to engage with the actual argument rather than a straw man.
posted by the tartare yolk at 9:45 AM on April 22 [4 favorites]
But... nobody's discussing Netanyahu here, and I'm not sure that Gordion Knott was saying that you should always believe every statement said by every Jew. I think they're saying that the presumption of good faith that's extended to other ethnicities discussing their experiences of discrimination isn't extended to Jewish people—in this case, Jewish students—discussing antisemitism, and that this state of affairs has gained so much traction because of antisemitic ideas about Jewish deceit.
I don't think that's strictly true (sotonohito's comment above, for example, shows some really creditable wrestling with the moral issues around this discourse, and I certainly don't think it's coming from a place of antisemitism), but it's important to engage with the actual argument rather than a straw man.
posted by the tartare yolk at 9:45 AM on April 22 [4 favorites]
This one caught my attention as a possible agent provocateur (no, not the one with the mummy-wrapped keffiyeh around their head with a sign that spelled 'al-qasam' though they both share similar grammatical errors that is very much dependent on, despite the length of time of the occupation, non-arabic-speaking Israelis and Jewish diaspora not at all aware of their semitic sister languages) shouting "yehudim" + "go back to Poland" except that pronoun is a Hebrew construction not an Arabic one, which begs the question why it's used in the first place to alarm and agitate people. But these have been only new instances of bad-faith trolling in activist spaces (not helped by then-later exposes of the most egregious public attacks are done by pro-Israeli individuals, a fact that confuses me and I'm only tentatively landing on the observation that retraumatisation is a key tactic to maintain support) and early on distracting enough (in the sense of taking up all the discourse oxygen) that I'm noticing this round, much to the frustration of those who thinks there's just never enough apologizing, the general 'leadership' position is to keep on moving and not get distracted by them.
Something similarly frustrating (for those seeking to get a rise) is happening in London as well with Gideon Falter only lately succeeding in making a policeman at fault but the protests and activism have just kept on moving. Unfortunately both the provocateurs and actual anti-Semites continue to be fodder on the pro-Israel side of socmed that I'm tracking, and it's genuinely very sad. People are being actively traumatized to the point they can't see straight, even if it always feels like I'm in a different reality when I go to those spaces.
posted by cendawanita at 9:47 AM on April 22 [7 favorites]
Something similarly frustrating (for those seeking to get a rise) is happening in London as well with Gideon Falter only lately succeeding in making a policeman at fault but the protests and activism have just kept on moving. Unfortunately both the provocateurs and actual anti-Semites continue to be fodder on the pro-Israel side of socmed that I'm tracking, and it's genuinely very sad. People are being actively traumatized to the point they can't see straight, even if it always feels like I'm in a different reality when I go to those spaces.
posted by cendawanita at 9:47 AM on April 22 [7 favorites]
(also the current Palestine catch-all thread with an emphasis on the current siege and violence - now definitely expanding to the other parts of the occupied territories - is still open)
posted by cendawanita at 9:52 AM on April 22 [7 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:52 AM on April 22 [7 favorites]
I wanted to get some details beyond people saying "anti-semitic incidents" so (lacking a NYTimes subscription) I went to the Columbia University student paper. This story seems to contain a rundown of incidents based on the student journalists' interviewing of Jewish students and reviewing videos they provided.
I tried to read it objectively. It seemed like there was perhaps one attempted assault, a pretty clear incident of hate speech (protestors calling for more October 7ths) and a whole lot of ugliness -- largely from non-students lurking near and possibly on the campus -- that could be called free speech but also would be scary as hell if it were said to you.
One Jewish student who was verbally attacked seemed to sum it up well -- that the Encampment was legitimate but the constant verbal abuse was not. His section in the story is too long to quote here but it's worth a click through. Here's the end of his statement:
posted by martin q blank at 9:54 AM on April 22 [35 favorites]
I tried to read it objectively. It seemed like there was perhaps one attempted assault, a pretty clear incident of hate speech (protestors calling for more October 7ths) and a whole lot of ugliness -- largely from non-students lurking near and possibly on the campus -- that could be called free speech but also would be scary as hell if it were said to you.
One Jewish student who was verbally attacked seemed to sum it up well -- that the Encampment was legitimate but the constant verbal abuse was not. His section in the story is too long to quote here but it's worth a click through. Here's the end of his statement:
De Dekér has since decided to leave campus for the time being and is staying with a friend outside of New York state.Speaking as someone who used to help manage a college's crisis response, and worked with police to do so: From the story, it seems like Columbia is botching this, badly, by shutting down legit student protests while failing to protect its students from abuse.
De Dekér said that he does not classify the encampment itself as antisemitism.
“Them sitting there and sharing their rights to free speech and advocating for peace in the Middle East is not antisemitism. I want to make that very clear,” he said. “What is antisemitism, though, is the numerous experiences of which I have had experience.”
posted by martin q blank at 9:54 AM on April 22 [35 favorites]
Gordion Knott The claim that campus antisemitism is overblown despite concrete instances of hate speech and violence is itself antisemitic. It feeds off of the stereotype that Jews are cunning, devious, and unscrupulous, and will use both legal and illegal strategems to foment strife and disorder and gain the upper hand.
That's a hell of a catch 22 you've just created there. It's not QUITE as good as the Christian presuppositonalist line of sophistry, but it's pretty close.
The problem is that your argument requires us to ignore the long history of Israeli apologists and zelots weaponizing maliciously false accusations of antisemitism as a means of pursuing their political objectives. Like when Internal Security Minister Gilad Erdan said that Natalie Portman, who is in fact both Jewish and Israeli, was antisemitic because she chose not to attend an award ceremony.
We are awash in false accusations of antisemitism. So the claim that it is inherently antisemitic to note that there's a history of false accusations of antisemitism is audacious at the very least.
seraphine Well, in my particular case I haven't actually seen any videos showing clear antisemitism. Or even dogwhistle antisemitism at Colombia. If you know of any I'd like to see them.
posted by sotonohito at 9:54 AM on April 22 [26 favorites]
That's a hell of a catch 22 you've just created there. It's not QUITE as good as the Christian presuppositonalist line of sophistry, but it's pretty close.
The problem is that your argument requires us to ignore the long history of Israeli apologists and zelots weaponizing maliciously false accusations of antisemitism as a means of pursuing their political objectives. Like when Internal Security Minister Gilad Erdan said that Natalie Portman, who is in fact both Jewish and Israeli, was antisemitic because she chose not to attend an award ceremony.
We are awash in false accusations of antisemitism. So the claim that it is inherently antisemitic to note that there's a history of false accusations of antisemitism is audacious at the very least.
seraphine Well, in my particular case I haven't actually seen any videos showing clear antisemitism. Or even dogwhistle antisemitism at Colombia. If you know of any I'd like to see them.
posted by sotonohito at 9:54 AM on April 22 [26 favorites]
Having been at there myself in person recently, I will say that the protest is mostly peaceful, civil, calm, very diverse.
Like all protests, it's a site of psychological projection. Everyone who is seeing what they want to see.
Let me break it down.
1. The on-campus protests are diverse, warm, supportive, peaceful. Many protestors and organizers are Jewish -- for example, a shabbat prayer was held there over the weekend.
2. Minouche Shafik's order to have the NYPD arresting the students has been widely panned by much of the faculty, tenured or untenured. It seems that she acted alone, against the advice of the University Senate, saying: "The executive committee did not approve the presence of NYPD on campus". Even the NYPD said that "the students were peaceful."
3. Yes, there appears to be some incidents of antisemitism. This is not good. There is also some indicents of Islamophobia. This is not good. As this tweet says: "Nothing about supporting a ceasefire or the protestors at Columbia commits you to denying that anti-semitism is real, more visible of late, and can sometimes be found among the left."
4. A protest, while often coordinated by organizations, is itself not an organization; it's ultimately a group of individuals shouting out whatever they want to shout. But individual actions are taken as evidence for the whole, very very quickly (and often in bad faith). It appears that student groups are clear that protest must be peaceful, even by shutting down anti-semitic speech. This doesn't stop the worst of imagery from spreading and altering public perception. The same deal goes for media coverage that now gives the opinion that the NYC subway is very dangerous, etc, when in reality a crime happens once every million rides.
5. There appears to be clear bad-faith actors or agent provocateurs attempting to create false-flag situations and inciting conflict. For example a pro-Israel org hiring people to 'inflitrate' the 'enemy' protests. An incident of antisemitic speech seems as if ">they might be by provocateurs.
6. There's a distinction between protestors inside Columbia and outside Columbia. This tweet: "Seems clear that a lot of the really egregious stuff isn't registered students but a kind of flotsam of radicals from the broader NYC community." This is true, judging from the protestors I follow.
7. Regardless, the media fervor of people who are not actually present is accusing people of anti-semitism and doxxing them left-and-right, in ugly mob fashion.
8. Counter-protestors like Shai Davidai seem to be interested in creating a spectacle and inciting conflict, ultimately being denied access to Columbia.
9. As James Schamus points out, much of this outrage is being manufactured. The protesting students themselves clarify: "We are frustrated by media distractions focusing on inflammatory individuals who do not represent us…Our members have been misidentified by a politically motivated mob. We firmly reject any form of hate or bigotry."
10. The expelled student protestors who are Jewish claim they are actually being negatively impacted and made unsafe by the administrations actions.
posted by many more sunsets at 10:14 AM on April 22 [83 favorites]
Like all protests, it's a site of psychological projection. Everyone who is seeing what they want to see.
Let me break it down.
1. The on-campus protests are diverse, warm, supportive, peaceful. Many protestors and organizers are Jewish -- for example, a shabbat prayer was held there over the weekend.
2. Minouche Shafik's order to have the NYPD arresting the students has been widely panned by much of the faculty, tenured or untenured. It seems that she acted alone, against the advice of the University Senate, saying: "The executive committee did not approve the presence of NYPD on campus". Even the NYPD said that "the students were peaceful."
3. Yes, there appears to be some incidents of antisemitism. This is not good. There is also some indicents of Islamophobia. This is not good. As this tweet says: "Nothing about supporting a ceasefire or the protestors at Columbia commits you to denying that anti-semitism is real, more visible of late, and can sometimes be found among the left."
4. A protest, while often coordinated by organizations, is itself not an organization; it's ultimately a group of individuals shouting out whatever they want to shout. But individual actions are taken as evidence for the whole, very very quickly (and often in bad faith). It appears that student groups are clear that protest must be peaceful, even by shutting down anti-semitic speech. This doesn't stop the worst of imagery from spreading and altering public perception. The same deal goes for media coverage that now gives the opinion that the NYC subway is very dangerous, etc, when in reality a crime happens once every million rides.
5. There appears to be clear bad-faith actors or agent provocateurs attempting to create false-flag situations and inciting conflict. For example a pro-Israel org hiring people to 'inflitrate' the 'enemy' protests. An incident of antisemitic speech seems as if ">they might be by provocateurs.
6. There's a distinction between protestors inside Columbia and outside Columbia. This tweet: "Seems clear that a lot of the really egregious stuff isn't registered students but a kind of flotsam of radicals from the broader NYC community." This is true, judging from the protestors I follow.
7. Regardless, the media fervor of people who are not actually present is accusing people of anti-semitism and doxxing them left-and-right, in ugly mob fashion.
8. Counter-protestors like Shai Davidai seem to be interested in creating a spectacle and inciting conflict, ultimately being denied access to Columbia.
9. As James Schamus points out, much of this outrage is being manufactured. The protesting students themselves clarify: "We are frustrated by media distractions focusing on inflammatory individuals who do not represent us…Our members have been misidentified by a politically motivated mob. We firmly reject any form of hate or bigotry."
10. The expelled student protestors who are Jewish claim they are actually being negatively impacted and made unsafe by the administrations actions.
posted by many more sunsets at 10:14 AM on April 22 [83 favorites]
(I should correct the above in point 7: internet mobs are attempting to doxx people based on nothing but blurry photographs and speculation)
posted by many more sunsets at 10:26 AM on April 22 [5 favorites]
posted by many more sunsets at 10:26 AM on April 22 [5 favorites]
Thank you, many more sunsets. I am currently sitting on the Columbia campus and think what you have written is very very accurate to my own lived experiences. I wish that people would listen more to those who are physically here (including Jewish students at Columbia) and less to the bloviating of people who are not physically here.
posted by branca at 10:34 AM on April 22 [34 favorites]
posted by branca at 10:34 AM on April 22 [34 favorites]
How is it possible that with every incident I can watch videos of horrendous, blatantly antisemitic statements and chants with signs to match and then come here to find a post explaining there is no antisemitism and even if there were it wouldn't matter because other things are more important? Just go look up the explosive year over year growth of antisemitism in the US and UK and consider that nothing should be an excuse for it.
Frankly, as someone who's been to dozens of Palestine actions over the last six months, most of them with Jewish comrades, I just don't believe you that these incidents are common at these actions or protests. I'm sorry you've seen videos that have upset you but you are repeating narratives that are false, and disseminated almost exclusively by bad faith actors to induce the exact reaction you've had. And they are subsequently used to suppress dissent, intimidate protestors and in the long term, provide more political support for a horrific genocide that has led to 37,000 deaths.
And yes, there are absolutely other things that are more important.
Also, "there is no anti-semitism" is a strawman that literally no one has said. But I emphatically do not believe that Palestine actions and protests are sites where there is rampant anti-Semitism.
posted by lizard2590 at 10:36 AM on April 22 [22 favorites]
Frankly, as someone who's been to dozens of Palestine actions over the last six months, most of them with Jewish comrades, I just don't believe you that these incidents are common at these actions or protests. I'm sorry you've seen videos that have upset you but you are repeating narratives that are false, and disseminated almost exclusively by bad faith actors to induce the exact reaction you've had. And they are subsequently used to suppress dissent, intimidate protestors and in the long term, provide more political support for a horrific genocide that has led to 37,000 deaths.
And yes, there are absolutely other things that are more important.
Also, "there is no anti-semitism" is a strawman that literally no one has said. But I emphatically do not believe that Palestine actions and protests are sites where there is rampant anti-Semitism.
posted by lizard2590 at 10:36 AM on April 22 [22 favorites]
I wish MeFites who come blazing into these discussions shouting "ANTISEMITISM" would produce their receipts, and contend with the actual content of the post
otherwise they're literally contributing to the problem
also: thank you, many more sunsets
exactly this weekend I encountered antisemitism. I'm with friends, someone mentions Gaza, someone criticizes Israeli policy, and someone says "actually the Jews control a lot of things in the world" and a few people jumped on that: what do you mean, how is this relevant to the discussion, etc. The person also happens to be from Syria, and I can say their beliefs are likely coloured by that
so personally, I am quite aware of a type of antisemitism but I don't find the need to blast it into every discussion with impunity
posted by elkevelvet at 10:38 AM on April 22 [23 favorites]
otherwise they're literally contributing to the problem
also: thank you, many more sunsets
exactly this weekend I encountered antisemitism. I'm with friends, someone mentions Gaza, someone criticizes Israeli policy, and someone says "actually the Jews control a lot of things in the world" and a few people jumped on that: what do you mean, how is this relevant to the discussion, etc. The person also happens to be from Syria, and I can say their beliefs are likely coloured by that
so personally, I am quite aware of a type of antisemitism but I don't find the need to blast it into every discussion with impunity
posted by elkevelvet at 10:38 AM on April 22 [23 favorites]
"I think they're saying that the presumption of good faith that's extended to other ethnicities discussing their experiences of discrimination..."
I'm gonna have to stop you there.
"...that's extended to other ethnicities discussing their experiences of discrimination isn't extended to Jewish people—in this case, Jewish students—discussing antisemitism, and that this state of affairs has gained so much traction because of antisemitic ideas about Jewish deceit.
Let's be clear, antisemitism is always wrong. I'd even strongly disagree with constraint's assertion that "I do not think the anti semetic rhetoric is important to address until the large scale starving of the Palestinian people is addressed." We can do more than one thing. Being opposed to antisemitism and genocide is not a tough ask, I think. Having said that, mischaracterizing protest movements with the very worst thing that happens at a march or rally with thousands of participants is a tried and true "fallacy of composition" tactic of reactionaries. At the same time I'd concede there can be a valid critique of some leftist protest movements that, for the sake of solidarity and staying on message, they sometimes tend to overlook the worst elements in their fringes.
Anyway, I don't think there's any contradiction in believing Jewish students who have experienced discrimination, and condemning that discrimination, while being fed up with mainstream media's constant campaign to delegitimize all opposition to Israel's current and historical actions toward the Palestinian people. And, while we're at it, condemning atrocities committed by Hamas. Decent people have no problem opposing all these things. And antisemitism surely weakens the greater cause. Once we accept that some groups are ok to dehumanize, then moral suasion loses its impact.
posted by xigxag at 10:42 AM on April 22 [16 favorites]
I'm gonna have to stop you there.
"...that's extended to other ethnicities discussing their experiences of discrimination isn't extended to Jewish people—in this case, Jewish students—discussing antisemitism, and that this state of affairs has gained so much traction because of antisemitic ideas about Jewish deceit.
Let's be clear, antisemitism is always wrong. I'd even strongly disagree with constraint's assertion that "I do not think the anti semetic rhetoric is important to address until the large scale starving of the Palestinian people is addressed." We can do more than one thing. Being opposed to antisemitism and genocide is not a tough ask, I think. Having said that, mischaracterizing protest movements with the very worst thing that happens at a march or rally with thousands of participants is a tried and true "fallacy of composition" tactic of reactionaries. At the same time I'd concede there can be a valid critique of some leftist protest movements that, for the sake of solidarity and staying on message, they sometimes tend to overlook the worst elements in their fringes.
Anyway, I don't think there's any contradiction in believing Jewish students who have experienced discrimination, and condemning that discrimination, while being fed up with mainstream media's constant campaign to delegitimize all opposition to Israel's current and historical actions toward the Palestinian people. And, while we're at it, condemning atrocities committed by Hamas. Decent people have no problem opposing all these things. And antisemitism surely weakens the greater cause. Once we accept that some groups are ok to dehumanize, then moral suasion loses its impact.
posted by xigxag at 10:42 AM on April 22 [16 favorites]
. I think they're saying that the presumption of good faith that's extended to other ethnicities discussing their experiences of discrimination isn't extended to Jewish people—in this case, Jewish students—discussing antisemitism, and that this state of affairs has gained so much traction because of antisemitic ideas about Jewish deceit.
Oh yeah, this is also silly. As a member of one of those "other ethnicities" and from a Muslim country, I've rarely experienced much "good faith" from white people when talking about racism--on this site or elsewhere--and frankly, I've seen a tenth of as much coverage of the rise in Islamophobia and anti-Palestinian sentiment (which has included multiple shootings and the murder of a child!) as I have of anti-Semitism.
Please don't speak for POC and what you assume to be their experiences with racism.
posted by lizard2590 at 10:45 AM on April 22 [33 favorites]
Oh yeah, this is also silly. As a member of one of those "other ethnicities" and from a Muslim country, I've rarely experienced much "good faith" from white people when talking about racism--on this site or elsewhere--and frankly, I've seen a tenth of as much coverage of the rise in Islamophobia and anti-Palestinian sentiment (which has included multiple shootings and the murder of a child!) as I have of anti-Semitism.
Please don't speak for POC and what you assume to be their experiences with racism.
posted by lizard2590 at 10:45 AM on April 22 [33 favorites]
I think they're saying that the presumption of good faith that's extended to other ethnicities discussing their experiences of discrimination isn't extended to Jewish people
/laughs in blackness
posted by anansi at 11:08 AM on April 22 [38 favorites]
/laughs in blackness
posted by anansi at 11:08 AM on April 22 [38 favorites]
The claim that campus antisemitism is overblown despite concrete instances of hate speech and violence is itself antisemitic.
Look, here's the thing. You're going to have to bring receipts because a lot of us have been protesting for several months now and being called antisemitic for things as varied as "saying the state of Israel is an apartheid state" or "saying apartheid states like Israel should not exist" or "saying that Palestine needs to be free" or "saying that the IOF commits war crimes and is killing children".
And when members of the National Lawyers Guild on campus are getting their fucking laptops smashed for being legal observers at pro Palestinian protests, and when pro-Israel protesters are bringing assault rifles and dogs to counter pro-Palestinian protesters, you're going to have to bring receipts on the "it's the pro-Palestinians who are bringing the violence", too.
posted by corb at 11:16 AM on April 22 [54 favorites]
Look, here's the thing. You're going to have to bring receipts because a lot of us have been protesting for several months now and being called antisemitic for things as varied as "saying the state of Israel is an apartheid state" or "saying apartheid states like Israel should not exist" or "saying that Palestine needs to be free" or "saying that the IOF commits war crimes and is killing children".
And when members of the National Lawyers Guild on campus are getting their fucking laptops smashed for being legal observers at pro Palestinian protests, and when pro-Israel protesters are bringing assault rifles and dogs to counter pro-Palestinian protesters, you're going to have to bring receipts on the "it's the pro-Palestinians who are bringing the violence", too.
posted by corb at 11:16 AM on April 22 [54 favorites]
Last week, the Supreme Court decided to leave in place a lower court ruling affecting Texas, Louisiana and Mississippi that holds "organizers" accountable for any illegal act that happens at a protest. Given that protests are public events that by their nature attract thousands of individuals, any one of whom might throw a rock at a car or impede traffic or worse, this is being presented as effectively outlawing protest in these states.
I bring this up because elsewhere I have seen people saying that the Supreme Court decision is obviously bad, but then suggesting in a completely different train of thought that students being arrested and evicted at Columbia are responsible for any threats or antisemitic remarks made as part of the protest that they were a part of. I think we want to be very careful to distinguish the harmful acts of some participants from the exercise of first amendment rights for the whole, because we are all better off when we have access to those first amendment rights.
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:33 AM on April 22 [34 favorites]
I bring this up because elsewhere I have seen people saying that the Supreme Court decision is obviously bad, but then suggesting in a completely different train of thought that students being arrested and evicted at Columbia are responsible for any threats or antisemitic remarks made as part of the protest that they were a part of. I think we want to be very careful to distinguish the harmful acts of some participants from the exercise of first amendment rights for the whole, because we are all better off when we have access to those first amendment rights.
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:33 AM on April 22 [34 favorites]
I really dislike the type of protest that has undertones of violence & aggression. I see this in the footage of many of these protests where they physically block observers or counter-protestors. Protest occurs in public spaces and you have zero right to use physical intimidation to push others out. When protesters use that tactic it feels like the purpose of their occupation of public space is to intimidate.
posted by haptic_avenger at 11:49 AM on April 22 [5 favorites]
posted by haptic_avenger at 11:49 AM on April 22 [5 favorites]
In relation to the absolutely reprehensible and disgraceful behavior of my fucking alma mater, USC may be in legal hot water as pulling Tabassum from speaking could very well fall afoul of California's Leonard Laws - a set of laws that further codifies free speech protections at educational organizations in the state, most notibly extending First Amendment protections to private universities. The ACLU is currently looking into whether the school has violated the law here.
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:59 AM on April 22 [6 favorites]
posted by NoxAeternum at 11:59 AM on April 22 [6 favorites]
"a horrific genocide that has led to 37,000 deaths." seems like the most important part here (understatement of the century)
Re: disliking the types of protest, well anyone can have any opinion they like. But lots of above comments are from folks actually on campus and they all say it does NOT have undertones of violence and aggression. But hey, Elise Stefanik and Virginia Foxx (clearly lifetime opponents of anti-semitism, despite the professional harms they've suffered (/S) are obviously much more reliable than in-person witnesses (/S)...
posted by WatTylerJr at 12:03 PM on April 22 [9 favorites]
Re: disliking the types of protest, well anyone can have any opinion they like. But lots of above comments are from folks actually on campus and they all say it does NOT have undertones of violence and aggression. But hey, Elise Stefanik and Virginia Foxx (clearly lifetime opponents of anti-semitism, despite the professional harms they've suffered (/S) are obviously much more reliable than in-person witnesses (/S)...
posted by WatTylerJr at 12:03 PM on April 22 [9 favorites]
I have also lived through the “fallacy of composition” at anti-war protests, but that seems like a whole lot of bean plating when the actual organizing groups SJP and JVP at Columbia University published the letter on Oct 9 that plainly justified the murders on Oct 7 as legitimate resistance
If someone attends a rally organized by groups that support anti-semitic terrorism, or at least uncritically parrot the terrorist’s talking points, what message does that send? How does it support peace? How does it save lives?
It’s like saying there’s nothing bigoted about wearing a MAGA hat because you only support the message of making America great. Where is the message coming from and who is it designed to hurt?
posted by Skwirl at 12:04 PM on April 22 [6 favorites]
If someone attends a rally organized by groups that support anti-semitic terrorism, or at least uncritically parrot the terrorist’s talking points, what message does that send? How does it support peace? How does it save lives?
It’s like saying there’s nothing bigoted about wearing a MAGA hat because you only support the message of making America great. Where is the message coming from and who is it designed to hurt?
posted by Skwirl at 12:04 PM on April 22 [6 favorites]
I really dislike the type of protest that has undertones of violence & aggression. I see this in the footage of many of these protests where they physically block observers or counter-protestors.
It's interesting how all of the opinions in this thread of folks feeling intimidated by these protests are people who openly admit to have only ever seen them on TV. While people actually attending the protests say they are largely peaceful and diverse, with the exception of occasional and rare generally non-student agitators--which you would expect from any mass gathering.
So, I'm sorry you dislike it but I hope you understand that the media footage is deliberately manipulated to make you feel that way--and to believe that students gathering against genocide on a campus you have no connection with pose some sort of threat to you.
posted by lizard2590 at 12:11 PM on April 22 [16 favorites]
It's interesting how all of the opinions in this thread of folks feeling intimidated by these protests are people who openly admit to have only ever seen them on TV. While people actually attending the protests say they are largely peaceful and diverse, with the exception of occasional and rare generally non-student agitators--which you would expect from any mass gathering.
So, I'm sorry you dislike it but I hope you understand that the media footage is deliberately manipulated to make you feel that way--and to believe that students gathering against genocide on a campus you have no connection with pose some sort of threat to you.
posted by lizard2590 at 12:11 PM on April 22 [16 favorites]
If someone attends a rally organized by groups that support anti-semitic terrorism, or at least uncritically parrot the terrorist’s talking points, what message does that send? How does it support peace? How does it save lives?
So is the allegation that the Columbia rallies are "organized by groups that support anti-Semitic terrorism"? Because that's a wild and honestly hilarious allegation. And I hope you understand that basically no one but dyed in the wool Zionists and Fox News watchers are falling for it anymore.
How does it support peace? How does it save lives?
The protests over the last six months have, unfortunately, not saved many lives from Israel's campaign of genocidal terrorism. But they have led to a sea change in public opinion about the humanity and lives of Palestinians, particularly among young people. I don't know if it supports peace because I don't support peace without actual justice and an end to apartheid. But it is bringing us closer to a world where people recognize America's horrific complicity in this genocide and our extreme hypocrisy about the lives of people in the Global South.
posted by lizard2590 at 12:12 PM on April 22 [17 favorites]
So is the allegation that the Columbia rallies are "organized by groups that support anti-Semitic terrorism"? Because that's a wild and honestly hilarious allegation. And I hope you understand that basically no one but dyed in the wool Zionists and Fox News watchers are falling for it anymore.
How does it support peace? How does it save lives?
The protests over the last six months have, unfortunately, not saved many lives from Israel's campaign of genocidal terrorism. But they have led to a sea change in public opinion about the humanity and lives of Palestinians, particularly among young people. I don't know if it supports peace because I don't support peace without actual justice and an end to apartheid. But it is bringing us closer to a world where people recognize America's horrific complicity in this genocide and our extreme hypocrisy about the lives of people in the Global South.
posted by lizard2590 at 12:12 PM on April 22 [17 favorites]
Also, it is important to keep in mind that many of the claims of supposedly uncontrolled anti-Semitism on the Columbia campus are being made by Elise Stefanik
Is the problem the anti Semitisim, or the person pointing out the anti Semitisim?
posted by 2N2222 at 12:14 PM on April 22
Is the problem the anti Semitisim, or the person pointing out the anti Semitisim?
posted by 2N2222 at 12:14 PM on April 22
Is the problem the anti Semitisim, or the person pointing out the anti Semitisim?
So, if you reread the sentence you're responding to, it says "the claims of supposedly uncontrolled anti-Semitism." So the implication is that those claims are false. Therefore, the claim that is being made is that there is no "uncontrolled anti-Semitism" on Columbia's campus and pointing it out is lying.
posted by lizard2590 at 12:16 PM on April 22 [9 favorites]
So, if you reread the sentence you're responding to, it says "the claims of supposedly uncontrolled anti-Semitism." So the implication is that those claims are false. Therefore, the claim that is being made is that there is no "uncontrolled anti-Semitism" on Columbia's campus and pointing it out is lying.
posted by lizard2590 at 12:16 PM on April 22 [9 favorites]
“So, I'm sorry you dislike it but I hope you understand that the media footage is deliberately manipulated to make you feel that way.”
What I saw was raw footage, not “media footage.” And it depicted the sort of low-level menace that I’ve seen in person at multiple protests when black-blockish folks show up. In particular, some of the current crop of protestors seem to believe they have the right to bodily force people out of “their space” - presumably believing that their public protest is a private event? It’s this kind of exclusionary bullying conduct that might merit breaking up an “encampment” on a college campus. A protest is not a private party.
posted by haptic_avenger at 12:17 PM on April 22 [4 favorites]
What I saw was raw footage, not “media footage.” And it depicted the sort of low-level menace that I’ve seen in person at multiple protests when black-blockish folks show up. In particular, some of the current crop of protestors seem to believe they have the right to bodily force people out of “their space” - presumably believing that their public protest is a private event? It’s this kind of exclusionary bullying conduct that might merit breaking up an “encampment” on a college campus. A protest is not a private party.
posted by haptic_avenger at 12:17 PM on April 22 [4 favorites]
in the footage of many of these protests where they physically block observers or counter-protestors
that is often done because the right (which includes many Zionist supporters) has no qualms about doxxing people who disagree with their views (putting the fash in fascism). this happened at Harvard iirc with trucks displaying info about protectors.
posted by kokaku at 12:23 PM on April 22 [16 favorites]
that is often done because the right (which includes many Zionist supporters) has no qualms about doxxing people who disagree with their views (putting the fash in fascism). this happened at Harvard iirc with trucks displaying info about protectors.
posted by kokaku at 12:23 PM on April 22 [16 favorites]
In the USA, I notice this term is weaponized most often by evangelical Christians.
Hard-right evangelicals are fiercely zionist/pro-israel. They need Israel to survive just long enough to rebuild the temple and bring-about the second coming.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:26 PM on April 22 [8 favorites]
Hard-right evangelicals are fiercely zionist/pro-israel. They need Israel to survive just long enough to rebuild the temple and bring-about the second coming.
posted by Thorzdad at 12:26 PM on April 22 [8 favorites]
>”So is the allegation that the Columbia rallies are ‘organized by groups that support anti-Semitic terrorism’ “
I said that on Oct 9 these groups at Columbia published a letter justifying the terrorist attacks on Oct 7, yes. You can seek out their own words yourself. When I protested the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars I sure as hell didn’t associate with any groups writing screeds justifying Bin Laden’s actions. That wouldn’t be peacemaking, that would be promoting war in the name of peace
posted by Skwirl at 12:27 PM on April 22 [5 favorites]
I said that on Oct 9 these groups at Columbia published a letter justifying the terrorist attacks on Oct 7, yes. You can seek out their own words yourself. When I protested the Afghanistan and Iraq Wars I sure as hell didn’t associate with any groups writing screeds justifying Bin Laden’s actions. That wouldn’t be peacemaking, that would be promoting war in the name of peace
posted by Skwirl at 12:27 PM on April 22 [5 favorites]
I have friends who are well meaning but end up getting fed talking points from the vaguely antisemitic left on Instagram. Like, I've had to explain that no, not every Israeli has another passport and could leave, Israelis aren't all "white" and cosplaying as persecuted ethnics, etc. I haven't been to much in the way of protests but this sort of nasty stuff is apparently quite compelling to some people who care a lot but aren't well-informed. That doesn't justify anything about the Right's cynical exploitation and exaggeration of this stuff, but it's real.
posted by BungaDunga at 12:43 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 12:43 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
I said that on Oct 9 these groups at Columbia published a letter justifying the terrorist attacks on Oct 7, yes. You can seek out their own words yourself.
Here is the text of the letter.
For the purposes of this discussion, could you please provide citations instead of asking everyone to do their own research? Vague references are not very conducive to a productive conversation and only lead to people speaking past one another.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:44 PM on April 22 [33 favorites]
Here is the text of the letter.
For the purposes of this discussion, could you please provide citations instead of asking everyone to do their own research? Vague references are not very conducive to a productive conversation and only lead to people speaking past one another.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 12:44 PM on April 22 [33 favorites]
(meta)Filter not feelings
I could not agree more elkevelvet, we are supposed to filter and critique things in the world. (Especially) with topics like this people should only be bringing something new, or arguing from their knowledge of a situation.
praemunires addition is great filtering as it adds significant information, in a relevant frame. But rational comments are being subsumed by a lot of what can only be called apologetics for atrocity, and bad faith dealers who (seem) to be unable to hold that two or more things can be true, instead pushing bothsidesism.
posted by unearthed at 12:45 PM on April 22 [1 favorite]
I could not agree more elkevelvet, we are supposed to filter and critique things in the world. (Especially) with topics like this people should only be bringing something new, or arguing from their knowledge of a situation.
praemunires addition is great filtering as it adds significant information, in a relevant frame. But rational comments are being subsumed by a lot of what can only be called apologetics for atrocity, and bad faith dealers who (seem) to be unable to hold that two or more things can be true, instead pushing bothsidesism.
posted by unearthed at 12:45 PM on April 22 [1 favorite]
I said that on Oct 9 these groups at Columbia published a letter justifying the terrorist attacks on Oct 7, yes.
this is a straight up lie.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:47 PM on April 22 [23 favorites]
this is a straight up lie.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:47 PM on April 22 [23 favorites]
Is the problem the anti Semitisim, or the person pointing out the anti Semitisim?
When a reasonable, relatively neutral information source provides evidence of "uncontrolled anti-Semitism," I will listen to them.
Stefanik is not a reasonable person, an even remotely neutral person on the subject of either anti-Semitism or what happens on the campus of universities, or a source of reliable information on any subject. I don't know how else to say that.
posted by delfin at 12:52 PM on April 22 [21 favorites]
When a reasonable, relatively neutral information source provides evidence of "uncontrolled anti-Semitism," I will listen to them.
Stefanik is not a reasonable person, an even remotely neutral person on the subject of either anti-Semitism or what happens on the campus of universities, or a source of reliable information on any subject. I don't know how else to say that.
posted by delfin at 12:52 PM on April 22 [21 favorites]
So, if you reread the sentence you're responding to, it says "the claims of supposedly uncontrolled anti-Semitism." So the implication is that those claims are false. Therefore, the claim that is being made is that there is no "uncontrolled anti-Semitism" on Columbia's campus and pointing it out is lying.
Controlled antisemitism on the other hand...
The problem is that there's little to no message discipline, so the protests can be anything to anybody, to interpret as they see fit. Let's hear it for the protest class of activists again!
But rational comments are being subsumed by a lot of what can only be called apologetics for atrocity, and bad faith dealers who (seem) to be unable to hold that two or more things can be true, instead pushing bothsidesism.
Which atrocity? Can we pick more than one? I know my comments are rational, but everyone else is (insert expletive here).
posted by 2N2222 at 12:56 PM on April 22
Controlled antisemitism on the other hand...
The problem is that there's little to no message discipline, so the protests can be anything to anybody, to interpret as they see fit. Let's hear it for the protest class of activists again!
But rational comments are being subsumed by a lot of what can only be called apologetics for atrocity, and bad faith dealers who (seem) to be unable to hold that two or more things can be true, instead pushing bothsidesism.
Which atrocity? Can we pick more than one? I know my comments are rational, but everyone else is (insert expletive here).
posted by 2N2222 at 12:56 PM on April 22
Meanwhile, Republican Senators Tom Cotton and Josh Hawley are calling for the National Guard to be sent in to the protests.
posted by toastyk at 12:56 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
posted by toastyk at 12:56 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
this is a straight up lie.
But I'm reading the letter right now?
posted by Justinian at 12:57 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
But I'm reading the letter right now?
Finally, we remind Columbia students that the Palestinian struggle for freedom is rooted in international law, under which occupied peoples have the right to resist the occupation of their land. If every political avenue available to Palestinians is blocked, we should not be surprised when resistance and violence break out.Are you saying that they don't mean this to be applied to Hamas despite it being published two days after the Hamas attacks?
posted by Justinian at 12:57 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
there's a difference between explaining or connecting dots and justifying. they're not saying Hamas was right. they're saying it's not surprising it happened, considering the conditions that Palestinians live within.
how is that negative, untrue, or anti-Semetic?
posted by kokaku at 1:02 PM on April 22 [35 favorites]
how is that negative, untrue, or anti-Semetic?
posted by kokaku at 1:02 PM on April 22 [35 favorites]
Israelis aren't all "white" and cosplaying as persecuted ethnics
No but they absolutely are cosplaying, that's what's happening. Israelis are cosplaying as being persecuted, that's the actual thing that is actually happening in actual reality, rather than in the fantasy-land they concoct to sustain a narrative to justify how their country needs to do ethnic cleansing or else they'll get ethnically cleansed first.
Let's be extremely clear that "Israeli" and "Persecuted" should probably never be in the same sentence because Israelis as a whole are by definition not a "persecuted" population of people in any conceivable way the same way "Americans" are not persecuted when we talk about them in the context of geopolitics and global conflict.
Israelis live an extremely high quality of life at the expense of persecuting and segregating others. Sometimes this quality of life is disrupted with terrorist threats and violence as a result of that. That's the reality.
posted by windbox at 1:06 PM on April 22 [26 favorites]
No but they absolutely are cosplaying, that's what's happening. Israelis are cosplaying as being persecuted, that's the actual thing that is actually happening in actual reality, rather than in the fantasy-land they concoct to sustain a narrative to justify how their country needs to do ethnic cleansing or else they'll get ethnically cleansed first.
Let's be extremely clear that "Israeli" and "Persecuted" should probably never be in the same sentence because Israelis as a whole are by definition not a "persecuted" population of people in any conceivable way the same way "Americans" are not persecuted when we talk about them in the context of geopolitics and global conflict.
Israelis live an extremely high quality of life at the expense of persecuting and segregating others. Sometimes this quality of life is disrupted with terrorist threats and violence as a result of that. That's the reality.
posted by windbox at 1:06 PM on April 22 [26 favorites]
No but they absolutely are cosplaying, that's what's happening.
Sasha Baron-Cohen's career finally makes sense to me. (Note: Contextualizing Sasha Baron-Cohen's career should not be misinterpreted as justifying or supporting Sasha Baron-Cohen's career.)
posted by i like crows very much at 1:15 PM on April 22 [3 favorites]
Sasha Baron-Cohen's career finally makes sense to me. (Note: Contextualizing Sasha Baron-Cohen's career should not be misinterpreted as justifying or supporting Sasha Baron-Cohen's career.)
posted by i like crows very much at 1:15 PM on April 22 [3 favorites]
Balance is important:
on the one hand you have people saying some profoundly disgusting, anti semitic things.
On the other you have two million people in camps being denied food, water, basic medical care, and shelter.
I wish I could favorite this a hundred times.
posted by subdee at 1:17 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
on the one hand you have people saying some profoundly disgusting, anti semitic things.
On the other you have two million people in camps being denied food, water, basic medical care, and shelter.
I wish I could favorite this a hundred times.
posted by subdee at 1:17 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
Ernest question , Are Palestinians also semite? Judahism and Islam spring from the same root, the covenant of Abraham. It seems that we're stuck in a cycle of conflict concerning Jacob and Esau , the morality of birthright and feeding the hungry..
posted by hortense at 1:27 PM on April 22 [1 favorite]
posted by hortense at 1:27 PM on April 22 [1 favorite]
“ that is often done because the right (which includes many Zionist supporters) has no qualms about doxxing people who disagree with their views”
No, that doesn’t justify the behavior I’ve seen and experienced. It’s a protest in a public space - you don’t get to push people out of it.
posted by haptic_avenger at 1:29 PM on April 22 [1 favorite]
No, that doesn’t justify the behavior I’ve seen and experienced. It’s a protest in a public space - you don’t get to push people out of it.
posted by haptic_avenger at 1:29 PM on April 22 [1 favorite]
Fun times at the Sedar-of-convenience yesterday asking if the Humanistic version of the Haggadah we read, which changes the focus of the Passover story from God leading the Jews to the holy land (as my mother says: Passover is the most Zionist of all the Jewish holidays) to a more generalized and universal message about "freedom," also applies to the Palestinians.
There are some synagogues that aren't pro-Israel but most are, hats off to all the Jewish people attending these protests especially if they are going against their rabbis and risking their social relationships in the process. Hats off to the University students risking expulsion also. Takes courage.
posted by subdee at 1:33 PM on April 22 [18 favorites]
There are some synagogues that aren't pro-Israel but most are, hats off to all the Jewish people attending these protests especially if they are going against their rabbis and risking their social relationships in the process. Hats off to the University students risking expulsion also. Takes courage.
posted by subdee at 1:33 PM on April 22 [18 favorites]
Finally, we remind Columbia students that the Palestinian struggle for freedom is rooted in international law, under which occupied peoples have the right to resist the occupation of their land. If every political avenue available to Palestinians is blocked, we should not be surprised when resistance and violence break out.
Are people here on Metafilter actually arguing that this plain historical analysis is antisemitic? Is this what people have been claiming is antisemitic? Jesus Christ on a fucking pogo stick, I live in bizarro land. If we are now arguing that political science is antisemitic then I don't even know what to say anymore.
posted by corb at 1:43 PM on April 22 [42 favorites]
Are people here on Metafilter actually arguing that this plain historical analysis is antisemitic? Is this what people have been claiming is antisemitic? Jesus Christ on a fucking pogo stick, I live in bizarro land. If we are now arguing that political science is antisemitic then I don't even know what to say anymore.
posted by corb at 1:43 PM on April 22 [42 favorites]
I thought the argument was that these protesting groups released a statement justifying the terrorist attack in its immediate aftermath (which seems foolish imo but not necessarily antisemitic).
posted by otsebyatina at 1:49 PM on April 22 [2 favorites]
posted by otsebyatina at 1:49 PM on April 22 [2 favorites]
Like, I've had to explain that no, not every Israeli has another passport and could leave, Israelis aren't all "white" and cosplaying as persecuted ethnics, etc. I haven't been to much in the way of protests but this sort of nasty stuff is apparently quite compelling to some people who care a lot but aren't well-informed.
This is not anti-Semitism (nor particularly nasty) unless you stretch the meaning of the word to absolutely absurd proportions.
Also, yes, Israelis are white in the eyes of most American people because race is contextual and about a lot more than skin color. Some Israelis have used American white liberal guilt to construct a bizarre, diversionary narrative about how they can’t be racist because they’re persecuted brown people. That’s the plain truth and saying that does not make me less “well-informed” than you.
posted by lizard2590 at 2:07 PM on April 22 [4 favorites]
This is not anti-Semitism (nor particularly nasty) unless you stretch the meaning of the word to absolutely absurd proportions.
Also, yes, Israelis are white in the eyes of most American people because race is contextual and about a lot more than skin color. Some Israelis have used American white liberal guilt to construct a bizarre, diversionary narrative about how they can’t be racist because they’re persecuted brown people. That’s the plain truth and saying that does not make me less “well-informed” than you.
posted by lizard2590 at 2:07 PM on April 22 [4 favorites]
Plenty of Israelis have left, that's part of the reason why Israeli's right wing has such a hold on the country today. Lots of the Israelis who didn't support that direction for their country went elsewhere.
posted by subdee at 2:11 PM on April 22 [5 favorites]
posted by subdee at 2:11 PM on April 22 [5 favorites]
The implication ends up being "why don't all the Jews in Israel just move back to where they came from" which feels like one step away from "the Jews are really Khazars" and so on. I'm not Jewish and not qualified to say what counts as antisemitism but some of the sentiments seem quite ugly.
posted by BungaDunga at 2:12 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
posted by BungaDunga at 2:12 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
>” October 9th, 2023
>Columbia Students for Justice in Palestine stands in full solidarity with Palestinian resistance against over 75 years of Israeli settler-colonialism and apartheid. Palestinians have been subjected to the longest ongoing military occupation inmodern history and their right to resist is enshrined in international law.
>Yesterday was an unprecedented historic moment for the Palestinians of Gaza, who tore through the wall that has been suffocating them in one of the most densely-populated areas on Earth for the past 16 years […]”
This is the specific published letter that I’m referring to. And I see that the quibbling about whether or not this heavily laden with academic words justification for violence against civilians really supports terrorism has already started which isn’t a debate I’m interested in revisiting. These student letters were widely published and criticized at the time for anyone following media other than biased social media sources
We don’t debate whether dogwhistles are dogwhistles for any other racism and this isn’t even a dogwhistle. My point is that never before in my experience of the left in my lifetime have I ever seen any need *at all* to equivocate about terroristic murders. Something has changed. People want blood for blood
lizard2590
>”I don't know if it supports peace because I don't support peace without actual justice and an end to apartheid. But it is bringing us closer to a world where people recognize America's horrific complicity in this genocide and our extreme hypocrisy about the lives of people in the Global South.”
Case in point. “I don’t support peace.” If I were Arafat at Camp David in the year 2000 and negotiations weren’t in my favor, but my only best alternative to a negotiated agreement was to return to terrorism that would cause death for my neighbors and multiples of that death and suffering for my own people from also amoral retaliations? I wouldn’t leave that negotiating table. I would grow old and die at that negotiating table
Peace has been achievable. A peace that would bring freedom and prosperity to Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and 1948 Palestinian Israeli citizens. The current protests have no plan for peace. They advocate for none of the plans of the past and posit no new plan for the future. It follows that they do not support peace. They want, at best, to ethnically cleanse Israelis from Israel. To make that same argument about any other nationality on earth would be instantly recognized as hate
posted by Skwirl at 2:18 PM on April 22 [8 favorites]
>Columbia Students for Justice in Palestine stands in full solidarity with Palestinian resistance against over 75 years of Israeli settler-colonialism and apartheid. Palestinians have been subjected to the longest ongoing military occupation inmodern history and their right to resist is enshrined in international law.
>Yesterday was an unprecedented historic moment for the Palestinians of Gaza, who tore through the wall that has been suffocating them in one of the most densely-populated areas on Earth for the past 16 years […]”
This is the specific published letter that I’m referring to. And I see that the quibbling about whether or not this heavily laden with academic words justification for violence against civilians really supports terrorism has already started which isn’t a debate I’m interested in revisiting. These student letters were widely published and criticized at the time for anyone following media other than biased social media sources
We don’t debate whether dogwhistles are dogwhistles for any other racism and this isn’t even a dogwhistle. My point is that never before in my experience of the left in my lifetime have I ever seen any need *at all* to equivocate about terroristic murders. Something has changed. People want blood for blood
lizard2590
>”I don't know if it supports peace because I don't support peace without actual justice and an end to apartheid. But it is bringing us closer to a world where people recognize America's horrific complicity in this genocide and our extreme hypocrisy about the lives of people in the Global South.”
Case in point. “I don’t support peace.” If I were Arafat at Camp David in the year 2000 and negotiations weren’t in my favor, but my only best alternative to a negotiated agreement was to return to terrorism that would cause death for my neighbors and multiples of that death and suffering for my own people from also amoral retaliations? I wouldn’t leave that negotiating table. I would grow old and die at that negotiating table
Peace has been achievable. A peace that would bring freedom and prosperity to Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank and 1948 Palestinian Israeli citizens. The current protests have no plan for peace. They advocate for none of the plans of the past and posit no new plan for the future. It follows that they do not support peace. They want, at best, to ethnically cleanse Israelis from Israel. To make that same argument about any other nationality on earth would be instantly recognized as hate
posted by Skwirl at 2:18 PM on April 22 [8 favorites]
Since I see mentions of 'terrorism,' it's worth noting that the legal category of terrorism was designed to suppress Palestinian resistance.
Anti-Palestinian Animus at Root of U.S. Anti-Terrorism Laws, New Report Reveals:
Published by Palestine Legal and the Center for Constitutional Rights, the paper provides historical and political context for the escalating effort to restrict the rights of activists protesting Israel’s brutal assault on Gaza – and those that extend well beyond the movement for Palestinian rights. In just the past few months, the Anti-Defamation League has called on university presidents to investigate Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) chapters for “material support for terrorism,” and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis used the same rationale to order a ban of SJPs from the state’s public universities – a move that a federal court recognized would likely violate the First Amendment. Efforts to defund the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) have invoked these same “support for terrorism” laws.
“In passing anti-terrorism laws, legislators have made little secret that a primary aim has been to repress Palestinian freedom struggles,” said Darryl Li, author of the briefing paper. “This briefing paper connects the dots, showing how the anti-Muslim policies of the post-9/11 era were built on a foundation of anti-Palestinian animus.”
Some details from the paper itself:
This Briefing Paper maps how early U.S. antiterrorism legislation evolved specifically to oppose Palestinian liberation struggles. Key findings include:
posted by i like crows very much at 2:21 PM on April 22 [17 favorites]
Anti-Palestinian Animus at Root of U.S. Anti-Terrorism Laws, New Report Reveals:
Published by Palestine Legal and the Center for Constitutional Rights, the paper provides historical and political context for the escalating effort to restrict the rights of activists protesting Israel’s brutal assault on Gaza – and those that extend well beyond the movement for Palestinian rights. In just the past few months, the Anti-Defamation League has called on university presidents to investigate Students for Justice in Palestine (SJP) chapters for “material support for terrorism,” and Florida Governor Ron DeSantis used the same rationale to order a ban of SJPs from the state’s public universities – a move that a federal court recognized would likely violate the First Amendment. Efforts to defund the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) have invoked these same “support for terrorism” laws.
“In passing anti-terrorism laws, legislators have made little secret that a primary aim has been to repress Palestinian freedom struggles,” said Darryl Li, author of the briefing paper. “This briefing paper connects the dots, showing how the anti-Muslim policies of the post-9/11 era were built on a foundation of anti-Palestinian animus.”
Some details from the paper itself:
This Briefing Paper maps how early U.S. antiterrorism legislation evolved specifically to oppose Palestinian liberation struggles. Key findings include:
- The earliest mention of “terrorism” in a federal statute, in 1969, dealt specifically with restricting humanitarian aid to Palestinians and inaugurated a pattern of rendering Palestinians synonymous with terrorism;
- The first government-issued terrorism blacklist was championed by Israel’s supporters in Congress and has been overwhelmingly used to pressure governments accused of supporting Palestinian resistance;
- The first and only time Congress has labeled a non-state group a terrorist organization was in a 1987 law aimed at the Palestine Liberation Organization;
- The first immigration law to include terrorism as a basis for exclusion and deportation singled out the PLO in its definition of terrorist activity;
- The first law authorizing private terrorism lawsuits was drafted to target the PLO and has been heavily used by dual citizens of Israel and the United States against defendants accused of supporting Palestinian resistance;
- The first financial sanctions blacklist of terrorist organizations was created in response to Israeli demands to crack down on Hamas and other Palestinian factions;
- Although the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing was perpetrated by domestic extremists, the antiterrorism provisions passed in its wake – including the material support statute – targeted only foreign groups, with Palestinian organizations being a primary concern.
posted by i like crows very much at 2:21 PM on April 22 [17 favorites]
Case in point. “I don’t support peace.” If I were Arafat at Camp David in the year 2000 and negotiations weren’t in my favor, but my only best alternative to a negotiated agreement was to return to terrorism that would cause death for my neighbors and multiples of that death and suffering for my own people from also amoral retaliations? I wouldn’t leave that negotiating table. I would grow old and die at that negotiating table
Maybe while you're sitting around eroding, you could spend some time doing a little more research about what actually happened, rather than blabbing canards about Arafat at Camp David. JFC.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:34 PM on April 22 [8 favorites]
Maybe while you're sitting around eroding, you could spend some time doing a little more research about what actually happened, rather than blabbing canards about Arafat at Camp David. JFC.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:34 PM on April 22 [8 favorites]
Olúfémi Táíwò on Bluesky summarizes basically how I’ve felt for months: “losing my mind over the constant shifting from evaluating causes to evaluating people fighting for them. If someone proved every single ceasefire protestor was an anti-Semite that cheats on their exams, romantic partners, and taxes, what would we learn about whether or not to support IDF bombs?”
it’s obviously not good for there to be violence or anti-semitic speech or any of that, but it’s pretty clear that a lot of folks (especially many politicians) are more interested in talking about how awful they thinks students on college campuses are behaving than they are willing to talk about United States support for the murder of 13,000 or more literal children (and the orphaning of thousands more).
posted by R343L at 2:45 PM on April 22 [17 favorites]
it’s obviously not good for there to be violence or anti-semitic speech or any of that, but it’s pretty clear that a lot of folks (especially many politicians) are more interested in talking about how awful they thinks students on college campuses are behaving than they are willing to talk about United States support for the murder of 13,000 or more literal children (and the orphaning of thousands more).
posted by R343L at 2:45 PM on April 22 [17 favorites]
I mean, groups like the PLO were pretty terrorist-y. Not going to make many friends hijacking airplanes and shit.
posted by otsebyatina at 2:46 PM on April 22
posted by otsebyatina at 2:46 PM on April 22
My point is so uncontroversial that even Bojack Horseman made a throwaway joke about it
Or if the horse’s mouth isn’t good enough, there’s Clinton’s:
>”I killed myself to give the Palestinians a state […] I had a deal they turned down that would have given them all of Gaza, 96 to 97 percent of the West Bank, compensating land in Israel, you name it."
source
posted by Skwirl at 2:48 PM on April 22 [1 favorite]
Or if the horse’s mouth isn’t good enough, there’s Clinton’s:
>”I killed myself to give the Palestinians a state […] I had a deal they turned down that would have given them all of Gaza, 96 to 97 percent of the West Bank, compensating land in Israel, you name it."
source
posted by Skwirl at 2:48 PM on April 22 [1 favorite]
Formally surrendering to a conqueror isn't peace, it's just another step in the process of violence- specifically, one in which the conqueror gets what they want.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:52 PM on April 22 [20 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:52 PM on April 22 [20 favorites]
Wow even Bill Clinton!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:54 PM on April 22 [10 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:54 PM on April 22 [10 favorites]
I feel like the fact that Bill Clinton and Arafat are your primary reference points for what a just peace would look like for Palestinians indicates that you perhaps don’t have a very good sense of the contemporary dynamics of the region. Or even the mainstream of public opinion on it for any person who does not clearly remember the Clinton era.
Also, I’m really bemused by why you think Yasser Arafat’s mistakes in the 90s (or not? I don’t really care) are in any relevant to student protests at Columbia and many other campuses.
Many of the Palestinians who have been murdered by Israel were not alive during the Clinton administration.
posted by lizard2590 at 3:05 PM on April 22 [22 favorites]
Also, I’m really bemused by why you think Yasser Arafat’s mistakes in the 90s (or not? I don’t really care) are in any relevant to student protests at Columbia and many other campuses.
Many of the Palestinians who have been murdered by Israel were not alive during the Clinton administration.
posted by lizard2590 at 3:05 PM on April 22 [22 favorites]
Skwirl, would you like a list of times Israel scuttled peace negotiations? I'll take Norman Finkelstein's word on this history before I take the word of a former US president
also from your linked article: "There’s nobody who’s blameless in the Middle East, but we cannot really ever make a fundamental difference in the Middle East unless the Israelis think we care whether they live or die," Politico quotes Clinton as saying. "If they do, we have a chance to keep pushing for peace."
I see, the Israelis don't think the US cares enough
posted by elkevelvet at 3:05 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
also from your linked article: "There’s nobody who’s blameless in the Middle East, but we cannot really ever make a fundamental difference in the Middle East unless the Israelis think we care whether they live or die," Politico quotes Clinton as saying. "If they do, we have a chance to keep pushing for peace."
I see, the Israelis don't think the US cares enough
posted by elkevelvet at 3:05 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
“ Formally surrendering to a conqueror isn't peace, it's just another step in the process of violence- specifically, one in which the conqueror gets what they want.”
This is the kind of dilettantish, radical chic statement that makes me think you don’t grasp what’s actually at stake. Meanwhile, prior to 10/7, a majority of Palestinians supported a 2-state solution and had very little trust in Hamas. Why do you now from your comfortable perch believe you have the right to effectively embrace neverending violence?
The war will end with diplomacy; not undergrads in keffiyahs saying silly things online and putting tents up in their 60k/year college courtyard (meanwhile getting ready to work for McKinsey.)
https://news.stanford.edu/report/2023/12/05/palestinians-views-oct-7/
posted by haptic_avenger at 3:18 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
This is the kind of dilettantish, radical chic statement that makes me think you don’t grasp what’s actually at stake. Meanwhile, prior to 10/7, a majority of Palestinians supported a 2-state solution and had very little trust in Hamas. Why do you now from your comfortable perch believe you have the right to effectively embrace neverending violence?
The war will end with diplomacy; not undergrads in keffiyahs saying silly things online and putting tents up in their 60k/year college courtyard (meanwhile getting ready to work for McKinsey.)
https://news.stanford.edu/report/2023/12/05/palestinians-views-oct-7/
posted by haptic_avenger at 3:18 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
Meanwhile, prior to 10/7, a majority of Palestinians supported a 2-state solution and had very little trust in Hamas. Why do you now from your comfortable perch believe you have the right to effectively embrace neverending violence
I’m sorry that you have such a lack of respect for those who disagree with you on this issue that you have to resort to ad hominem insults rather than engaging with their arguments.
My comfortable perch (very different from yours since you’re clearly commenting directly from Gaza) does seem to be the one that actual Palestinians and Palestinian-Americans are behind.
The ‘war’ may end that way but it certainly will not mean justice or peace for Palestinians or anyone else in the region, if it continues the system of apartheid and ethnic cleansing and occasional genocide that has been the Palestinian reality for 75 years.
posted by lizard2590 at 3:20 PM on April 22 [13 favorites]
I’m sorry that you have such a lack of respect for those who disagree with you on this issue that you have to resort to ad hominem insults rather than engaging with their arguments.
My comfortable perch (very different from yours since you’re clearly commenting directly from Gaza) does seem to be the one that actual Palestinians and Palestinian-Americans are behind.
The ‘war’ may end that way but it certainly will not mean justice or peace for Palestinians or anyone else in the region, if it continues the system of apartheid and ethnic cleansing and occasional genocide that has been the Palestinian reality for 75 years.
posted by lizard2590 at 3:20 PM on April 22 [13 favorites]
The war will end with diplomacy; not undergrads in keffiyahs saying silly things online and putting tents up in their 60k/year college courtyard
they're protesting for Columbia to financially divest from companies that support the Israeli military
there's multiple ways to stop a war
(so many bad faith arguments in this thread)
posted by kokaku at 3:27 PM on April 22 [37 favorites]
they're protesting for Columbia to financially divest from companies that support the Israeli military
there's multiple ways to stop a war
(so many bad faith arguments in this thread)
posted by kokaku at 3:27 PM on April 22 [37 favorites]
“ be the one that actual Palestinians and Palestinian-Americans are behind”
You mean a 2-state solution and displacing Hamas with more robust civil society and free speech rights? Because that’s what they wanted before Hamas triggered the war.
posted by haptic_avenger at 3:28 PM on April 22 [2 favorites]
You mean a 2-state solution and displacing Hamas with more robust civil society and free speech rights? Because that’s what they wanted before Hamas triggered the war.
posted by haptic_avenger at 3:28 PM on April 22 [2 favorites]
“ they're protesting for Columbia to financially divest from companies that support the Israeli military”
Like Microsoft, which they are no doubt writing their IB and PE internships cover letters on.
posted by haptic_avenger at 3:29 PM on April 22
Like Microsoft, which they are no doubt writing their IB and PE internships cover letters on.
posted by haptic_avenger at 3:29 PM on April 22
It’s also rather upsetting to see such contempt for college activism on this site! “Dilettantish” “radical chic” “undergrads in keffiyahs [sic] saying silly things online.”
Is this really what you think about student protest movements? Do you really think the thousands of people on the streets for the last six months, many of them Muslim and PoC and almost all organized by Palestinians and anti-Zionist Jews—do you really think we’re all dumb dilettante children who’ve accomplished nothing?
If so, honestly, I pity your cynicism and I hope you can heal your heart.
posted by lizard2590 at 3:30 PM on April 22 [28 favorites]
Is this really what you think about student protest movements? Do you really think the thousands of people on the streets for the last six months, many of them Muslim and PoC and almost all organized by Palestinians and anti-Zionist Jews—do you really think we’re all dumb dilettante children who’ve accomplished nothing?
If so, honestly, I pity your cynicism and I hope you can heal your heart.
posted by lizard2590 at 3:30 PM on April 22 [28 favorites]
You mean a 2-state solution and displacing Hamas with more robust civil society and free speech rights? Because that’s what they wanted before Hamas triggered the war.
Have you talked to many? You seem to have a direct line to Palestinian public opinion unlike me on my comfortable perch! What are they thinking now?
posted by lizard2590 at 3:31 PM on April 22 [9 favorites]
Have you talked to many? You seem to have a direct line to Palestinian public opinion unlike me on my comfortable perch! What are they thinking now?
posted by lizard2590 at 3:31 PM on April 22 [9 favorites]
This is the specific published letter that I’m referring to. And I see that the quibbling about whether or not this heavily laden with academic words justification for violence against civilians really supports terrorism has already started which isn’t a debate I’m interested in revisiting. These student letters were widely published and criticized at the time for anyone following media other than biased social media sourcesI see no racism or anti-Semitism in the letter. A bit callous and blasé perhaps, but the primary thrust isn't wrong and I'm sure the writers foresaw how the topic would play out in the public, which is why they wrote it - to try and forestall the inevitable "Israel has a right to exist" -> "Israel has a right to defend itself" -> "Therefore it has the right to slaughter thousands of Palestinians with impunity". No coverage of 7 Oct can be complete without situating it in the historical context. The consequence of issuing Israel a rhetorical blank check is playing out right now.
We don’t debate whether dogwhistles are dogwhistles for any other racism and this isn’t even a dogwhistle. My point is that never before in my experience of the left in my lifetime have I ever seen any need *at all* to equivocate about terroristic murders. Something has changed. People want blood for blood
posted by ndr at 3:34 PM on April 22 [19 favorites]
You mean a 2-state solution and displacing Hamas with more robust civil society and free speech rights? Because that’s what they wanted before Hamas triggered the war.
this revisionism and outright falsehood is disgusting
to read your comments Israel has been piously seeking to find common cause with Palestinians "if only they weren't savages and terrorists SIGH war it is"
please, you are embarrassing yourself.
posted by elkevelvet at 3:43 PM on April 22 [18 favorites]
this revisionism and outright falsehood is disgusting
to read your comments Israel has been piously seeking to find common cause with Palestinians "if only they weren't savages and terrorists SIGH war it is"
please, you are embarrassing yourself.
posted by elkevelvet at 3:43 PM on April 22 [18 favorites]
“ Have you talked to many? You seem to have a direct line to Palestinian public opinion unlike me on my comfortable perch! What are they thinking now?”
I would imagine that the vast majority of those actually there severely regret that Hamas did 10/7.
posted by haptic_avenger at 3:46 PM on April 22
I would imagine that the vast majority of those actually there severely regret that Hamas did 10/7.
posted by haptic_avenger at 3:46 PM on April 22
It's a little difficult to follow who is responding to what comment, but my reading of haptic_avenger's comment was that they were primarily responding to the fact that pre-Oct. 7 over half of Gazans supported a two-state solution and that someone above mentioned that Clinton had worked toward a two state solution but then Pope Guilty remarked "Formally surrendering to a conqueror isn't peace, it's just another step in the process of violence- specifically, one in which the conqueror gets what they want." and that seemed to be rejecting the idea of a two state solution and that was what the “Dilettantish” “radical chic” comment was responding to-- the notion that we as commenters on an internet message board have more radical positions than those directly involved in the conflict.
posted by gwint at 3:53 PM on April 22 [3 favorites]
posted by gwint at 3:53 PM on April 22 [3 favorites]
To ravage, to slaughter, to usurp under false titles, they call empire, and where they make a desert, they call it peace.
- some dilettantish, radical chic person who knew nothing
posted by pyramid termite at 4:06 PM on April 22 [6 favorites]
- some dilettantish, radical chic person who knew nothing
posted by pyramid termite at 4:06 PM on April 22 [6 favorites]
There's no such thing as a two-state solution, Israel squashed that when they started turning the west bank into fucking swiss cheese and those 500k+ settlers are not going anywhere. That's why any time anyone says "two-state solution" it just means literally nothing and should be treated with zero respect. If Palestinians support it in some survey it's because they support a Palestinian state with complete rights and autonomy and sovereignty side by side with Israel; I assure you it is not because they are stoked on some stupid fucking plan proposed by Jared Kushner where super-highways and tunnels and access roads connect everything as Israel continues to control all ports and airspace. Stupid convulted liberal nonsense.
posted by windbox at 4:08 PM on April 22 [26 favorites]
posted by windbox at 4:08 PM on April 22 [26 favorites]
Here's the "Arab-Barometer" report referred to earlier:
I'm unsure why the representative opinions of the actual Palestinian people "means literally nothing and should be treated with zero respect"
posted by gwint at 4:31 PM on April 22 [2 favorites]
Palestinian-Israeli relations AB8 explored attitudes of PalestiniansThere's a good deal more detail in the report.
toward various solutions that would put an end to the conflict. The poll
offered three solutions: the two-state solution based on the 1967 borders,
the one-state solution for Palestinians and Israelis, and a confederation
between the two states. Respondents can select one of the three or
alternatively reject all three and select “other” solutions. The poll found a
slim majority favoring the two-state solution followed by “other”
solutions, one-state solution, and the confederation. Palestinian youth
and those who support Hamas are more likely to oppose the two-state
solution while older Palestinians and those who support all other factions
are more likely to support that solution.
I'm unsure why the representative opinions of the actual Palestinian people "means literally nothing and should be treated with zero respect"
posted by gwint at 4:31 PM on April 22 [2 favorites]
I mean, groups like the PLO were pretty terrorist-y.
The point is that the notion of terrorism itself was designed with Palestinians in mind even though, as the report says, "Palestinian armed struggle has been no more violent than in other anticolonial movements."
Rashid Khalidi explains:
When and if the Palestinians can get their own act together and form some kind of, for example, reformed PLO, there is no way to exclude Hamas from that. This idea that Hamas, because of what it did on October 7, is completely excluded from Palestinian governance is a fantasy. An Israeli-American-European fantasy. You do not negotiate with the people who have already agreed to a terms. You couldn't do that in Ireland— you had to bring the IRA in. You couldn't do that in South Africa. You had to bring the ANC in. You couldn't do that in Algeria. You had to bring the FLA in. These are groups that had carried out horrific attacks, in many cases on civilians. These are groups that were described by the colonial powers in South Africa, Algeria, Ireland as terrorists or bandits or different terms at different times.
Regardless of what you think of the PLO, you can't control how these laws will be used:
The Paper also highlights the pivotal role of Zionist organizations in shaping these tools, to the extent that many antiterrorism laws are essentially bespoke instruments for Zionist interests in crushing any Palestinian resistance. Most prominent has been the ADL, whose most active period in advocating for terrorism legislation – from the late 1980s to the mid-1990s – coincided with its engagement in extensive private espionage activities against Palestinian and Arab groups and anti-apartheid activists.
These laws have over the last two decades been used liberally by Zionist groups to tar those advocating for Palestinian rights as “terrorist supporters,” egging on federal prosecutions of Palestinians and taking the law in their own hands to sue non-profits such as American Muslims for Palestine and the U.S. Campaign for Palestinian Rights In more recent years, Zionist groups have also maneuvered in the shadow of antiterrorism law, seeking to extend repression even further. The Zionist organization Zachor has written to federal and state authorities demanding terrorism investigations of Black-led and Palestine solidarity organizations in the U.S. for their advocacy on Palestine. The Zionist Advocacy Center, a registered agent of an Israeli government-linked organization, has used terrorism smears to weaponize federal law against organizations providing humanitarian aid in Palestine. Zionist groups have invoked antiterrorism laws to pressure social media companies and fundraising sites to exclude supporters of Palestinian liberation from their platforms. These harassment and defamation efforts have repeatedly invoked frivolous accusations that target protected speech activities.
posted by i like crows very much at 4:38 PM on April 22 [16 favorites]
The point is that the notion of terrorism itself was designed with Palestinians in mind even though, as the report says, "Palestinian armed struggle has been no more violent than in other anticolonial movements."
Rashid Khalidi explains:
When and if the Palestinians can get their own act together and form some kind of, for example, reformed PLO, there is no way to exclude Hamas from that. This idea that Hamas, because of what it did on October 7, is completely excluded from Palestinian governance is a fantasy. An Israeli-American-European fantasy. You do not negotiate with the people who have already agreed to a terms. You couldn't do that in Ireland— you had to bring the IRA in. You couldn't do that in South Africa. You had to bring the ANC in. You couldn't do that in Algeria. You had to bring the FLA in. These are groups that had carried out horrific attacks, in many cases on civilians. These are groups that were described by the colonial powers in South Africa, Algeria, Ireland as terrorists or bandits or different terms at different times.
Regardless of what you think of the PLO, you can't control how these laws will be used:
The Paper also highlights the pivotal role of Zionist organizations in shaping these tools, to the extent that many antiterrorism laws are essentially bespoke instruments for Zionist interests in crushing any Palestinian resistance. Most prominent has been the ADL, whose most active period in advocating for terrorism legislation – from the late 1980s to the mid-1990s – coincided with its engagement in extensive private espionage activities against Palestinian and Arab groups and anti-apartheid activists.
These laws have over the last two decades been used liberally by Zionist groups to tar those advocating for Palestinian rights as “terrorist supporters,” egging on federal prosecutions of Palestinians and taking the law in their own hands to sue non-profits such as American Muslims for Palestine and the U.S. Campaign for Palestinian Rights In more recent years, Zionist groups have also maneuvered in the shadow of antiterrorism law, seeking to extend repression even further. The Zionist organization Zachor has written to federal and state authorities demanding terrorism investigations of Black-led and Palestine solidarity organizations in the U.S. for their advocacy on Palestine. The Zionist Advocacy Center, a registered agent of an Israeli government-linked organization, has used terrorism smears to weaponize federal law against organizations providing humanitarian aid in Palestine. Zionist groups have invoked antiterrorism laws to pressure social media companies and fundraising sites to exclude supporters of Palestinian liberation from their platforms. These harassment and defamation efforts have repeatedly invoked frivolous accusations that target protected speech activities.
posted by i like crows very much at 4:38 PM on April 22 [16 favorites]
This probably belongs in the open Gaza war thread, but I don't ever see anything from the pro-IDF people on this question: how many Gaza's have to die before the IDF and Netanyahu end this? All of them? Cause it seems like the pro-IDF people will only accept the deaths of every single Gazan. Then what of the West Bank Palestinians? They all should die too?
posted by WatTylerJr at 4:38 PM on April 22 [9 favorites]
posted by WatTylerJr at 4:38 PM on April 22 [9 favorites]
Is Rashida Tlalib allowed to talk about her friends and family being at risk of immolation by the IDF? Or does that cross the bounds of anti-semitism as well?
posted by WatTylerJr at 4:40 PM on April 22 [10 favorites]
posted by WatTylerJr at 4:40 PM on April 22 [10 favorites]
Meanwhile, Israeli armored vehicles and tanks begin movement towards Rafah for ground assault.
https://twitter.com/deepbarot/status/1782486863128739944
posted by subdee at 4:43 PM on April 22 [6 favorites]
https://twitter.com/deepbarot/status/1782486863128739944
posted by subdee at 4:43 PM on April 22 [6 favorites]
That question probably belongs somewhere with people that are extolling the virtues of the IDF. Hardly anyone suggesting the IDF is covering themselves in glory here. More just suggesting You Do Not, Under Any Circumstances, "Gotta Hand It To Them" re Hamas.
posted by otsebyatina at 4:45 PM on April 22 [4 favorites]
posted by otsebyatina at 4:45 PM on April 22 [4 favorites]
A few hours ago, Mother Jones published a cool, short interview with two students who run WKCR, the radio station at Columbia.
posted by ElKevbo at 4:48 PM on April 22 [8 favorites]
posted by ElKevbo at 4:48 PM on April 22 [8 favorites]
This is the kind of dilettantish, radical chic statement that makes me think you don’t grasp what’s actually at stake. Meanwhile, prior to 10/7, a majority of Palestinians supported a 2-state solution
It's a little difficult to follow who is responding to what comment, but my reading of haptic_avenger's comment was that they were primarily responding to the fact that pre-Oct. 7 over half of Gazans supported a two-state solution
Are the 1967 borders on the table? Because that poll/study specifically frames the two-state solution as resulting in the 1967 borders.
This specific data point, which is being given a lot of weight, seems at odds with this poll/study by the Palestinian-Israeli Pulse which was "A Joint Poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR) in Ramallah and the International Program in Conflict Resolution and Mediation at Tel Aviv University with funding from the Netherlands Representative Office in Ramallah and the Representative Office of Japan to Palestine through UNDP/PAPP. The
joint poll was conducted during December 2022."
This study asserts:
Support for a two-state solution among Palestinians and Israelis s declines to just one-third on each side, along with growing opposition to the detailed items of a permanent peace agreement for implementing a twostate solution. Slightly more Israeli Jews support one unequal state under Israeli rule than the two-state solution; but both publics still prefer two states to any other democratic framework for resolving the conflict. Pairs of reciprocal incentives can raise support somewhat on both sides, showing some flexibility particularly among the Israelis. But trust is declining to new low points, and a majority of Palestinians reject four proposed confidence building measures while a majority of Israelis accepts half of them.
And finds
Support for the two-state solution drops significantly among Palestinians and Israeli Jews, from 43% in September 2020 to 33% among the Palestinians and 34% among Israeli Jews.
Which demonstrates a periodic decrease in support. This aligns with other reporting I've seen from this time period (e.g., Washington Institute,)
Though we don't need any of this data to know that
"Formally surrendering to a conqueror isn't peace, it's just another step in the process of violence- specifically, one in which the conqueror gets what they want."
Is a true statement on its face.
posted by CPAnarchist at 5:03 PM on April 22 [14 favorites]
It's a little difficult to follow who is responding to what comment, but my reading of haptic_avenger's comment was that they were primarily responding to the fact that pre-Oct. 7 over half of Gazans supported a two-state solution
Are the 1967 borders on the table? Because that poll/study specifically frames the two-state solution as resulting in the 1967 borders.
This specific data point, which is being given a lot of weight, seems at odds with this poll/study by the Palestinian-Israeli Pulse which was "A Joint Poll conducted by the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research (PSR) in Ramallah and the International Program in Conflict Resolution and Mediation at Tel Aviv University with funding from the Netherlands Representative Office in Ramallah and the Representative Office of Japan to Palestine through UNDP/PAPP. The
joint poll was conducted during December 2022."
This study asserts:
Support for a two-state solution among Palestinians and Israelis s declines to just one-third on each side, along with growing opposition to the detailed items of a permanent peace agreement for implementing a twostate solution. Slightly more Israeli Jews support one unequal state under Israeli rule than the two-state solution; but both publics still prefer two states to any other democratic framework for resolving the conflict. Pairs of reciprocal incentives can raise support somewhat on both sides, showing some flexibility particularly among the Israelis. But trust is declining to new low points, and a majority of Palestinians reject four proposed confidence building measures while a majority of Israelis accepts half of them.
And finds
Support for the two-state solution drops significantly among Palestinians and Israeli Jews, from 43% in September 2020 to 33% among the Palestinians and 34% among Israeli Jews.
Which demonstrates a periodic decrease in support. This aligns with other reporting I've seen from this time period (e.g., Washington Institute,)
Though we don't need any of this data to know that
"Formally surrendering to a conqueror isn't peace, it's just another step in the process of violence- specifically, one in which the conqueror gets what they want."
Is a true statement on its face.
posted by CPAnarchist at 5:03 PM on April 22 [14 favorites]
To not abuse the edit window, also this:
the notion that we as commenters on an internet message board have more radical positions than those directly involved in the conflict
Has not been demonstrated as true, as even a majority representation for a particular answer to particular question in a single poll does not invalidate minority positions in the sample nor population.
posted by CPAnarchist at 5:06 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
the notion that we as commenters on an internet message board have more radical positions than those directly involved in the conflict
Has not been demonstrated as true, as even a majority representation for a particular answer to particular question in a single poll does not invalidate minority positions in the sample nor population.
posted by CPAnarchist at 5:06 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
So this thread is supposed to be about the US collegiate anti-genocide protests; there is an open Gaza thread in which things like the so-called "two-state solution" are much more on topic. In an attempt to rerail this one, i would like to suggest that discussion of whether, for instance, a bantustan is a state (it's not) should go over there—i've left a comment you're all welcome to react to!
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:11 PM on April 22 [14 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:11 PM on April 22 [14 favorites]
Don't make me get out my "The plural of anecdote is NOT data!" paddle, cause it's been a while and I drilled a couple holes in it for aerodynamics.
That said, all you have to do in these situations and look where the R's stand and not be on that side. This isn't rocket science.
posted by Sphinx at 5:46 PM on April 22 [4 favorites]
That said, all you have to do in these situations and look where the R's stand and not be on that side. This isn't rocket science.
posted by Sphinx at 5:46 PM on April 22 [4 favorites]
Hi. Jewish person here.
I should probably know better than to put my $0.02 in here. And I am probably just pissing into the wind, but here goes.
I am so… sad at the current intractable state of affairs. I do not support the policies of Israel’s far right government. I support Israel’s right to exist. I do not support the policies of Hamas. I support the Palestinian’s right for freedom and self-determination and wish it could be realized.
But here’s what I’d like to communicate. There are people that sincerely wish to harm, intimidate, and threaten Jewish people right now. From many Jews’ perspectives, pro-Palestinian protestors are bedfellows with these people, even if they do not intend it - because in their speech and action there is inherent support and advancement of the beliefs of the people who wish actual harm to Jews. Jewish people are not synonymous with the policies of the Israeli far right. Harming, intimidating, and threatening Jewish people does not move the situation towards peace
In no way do I wish to minimize the suffering of Palestinians in the US or Gaza or anywhere else. But as a 45yo Jewish person and the parent of a Jewish teenager, I have never felt less safe in my life.
posted by gnutron at 6:29 PM on April 22 [22 favorites]
I should probably know better than to put my $0.02 in here. And I am probably just pissing into the wind, but here goes.
I am so… sad at the current intractable state of affairs. I do not support the policies of Israel’s far right government. I support Israel’s right to exist. I do not support the policies of Hamas. I support the Palestinian’s right for freedom and self-determination and wish it could be realized.
But here’s what I’d like to communicate. There are people that sincerely wish to harm, intimidate, and threaten Jewish people right now. From many Jews’ perspectives, pro-Palestinian protestors are bedfellows with these people, even if they do not intend it - because in their speech and action there is inherent support and advancement of the beliefs of the people who wish actual harm to Jews. Jewish people are not synonymous with the policies of the Israeli far right. Harming, intimidating, and threatening Jewish people does not move the situation towards peace
In no way do I wish to minimize the suffering of Palestinians in the US or Gaza or anywhere else. But as a 45yo Jewish person and the parent of a Jewish teenager, I have never felt less safe in my life.
posted by gnutron at 6:29 PM on April 22 [22 favorites]
Also going to try and steer this thread back to the original topic.
I'd say this New Yorker cartoon from April 11 is actually pretty spot on.
This isn't a particular novel insight, but I keep thinking about how different this would all be without social media. I'm sure there would still be tensions, but for example upthread:
What I saw was raw footage, not “media footage.” And it depicted the sort of low-level menace that I’ve seen in person at multiple protests when black-blockish folks show up. In particular, some of the current crop of protestors seem to believe they have the right to bodily force people out of “their space” - presumably believing that their public protest is a private event? It’s this kind of exclusionary bullying conduct that might merit breaking up an “encampment” on a college campus. A protest is not a private party.
I'm pretty sure I've see the same footage as you on Twitter, posted by Jewish Columbia student, claiming they were targeted simply for being Jewish. The footage, at face-value, is concerning. Also concerning is that people (as you've perhaps demonstrated) are more likely to believe "raw footage" than footage they deem to be sufficiently mediated to not be trusted. But dig just a little into this video, and the protestors are responding this way not because the student is Jewish, but because they are filming the protestors despite being asked, repeatedly, not to do so. And given that pro-Palestine students have been doxxed by right-wing nutters, in part facilitated by social media, it's an understandable fear. Personally, I find chanting "A Zionist has infiltrated our camp and now we need to push them out" to be a bit counterproductive, but these are college students, they are allowed to sometimes miss the the mark on the optics of their actions. To address the user I've quoted, on the one hand I agree that no group of students should get to turn a part of campus, which belongs to all students, into an autonomous space with their own set of rules - on the other hand, I appreciate that the other side has already done real harm to college kids simply on the basis of them supporting Palestine so I can see why they'd be protective against filming. In any case, I don't think they're being antisemitic in the video - they are simply responding to students being aggressive towards them.
Meanwhile, if it wasn't for social media, I'd probably never know the name Shai Davidai. I'm sure he'd write some angry op-eds if we were back in old days of print media, but that would be about it. Instead, he's managed to make the whole situation much worse by antagonizing students online and in-person, drawing national attention to what should be a local matter, and building a fanbase that has begun coming out to support him and escalate tensions (many of which, have nothing to do with Columbia). I know a few Columbia professors, and the guy is generally reviled among the faculty - he does not represent them certainly, and again, if this was being handled as an internal campus issue, he'd just be the campus crank - instead he able to wield this power through the following he's built on social media.
Anyway, sorry if this is a bit rambley, the piano has been drinking.
posted by coffeecat at 6:41 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
I'd say this New Yorker cartoon from April 11 is actually pretty spot on.
This isn't a particular novel insight, but I keep thinking about how different this would all be without social media. I'm sure there would still be tensions, but for example upthread:
What I saw was raw footage, not “media footage.” And it depicted the sort of low-level menace that I’ve seen in person at multiple protests when black-blockish folks show up. In particular, some of the current crop of protestors seem to believe they have the right to bodily force people out of “their space” - presumably believing that their public protest is a private event? It’s this kind of exclusionary bullying conduct that might merit breaking up an “encampment” on a college campus. A protest is not a private party.
I'm pretty sure I've see the same footage as you on Twitter, posted by Jewish Columbia student, claiming they were targeted simply for being Jewish. The footage, at face-value, is concerning. Also concerning is that people (as you've perhaps demonstrated) are more likely to believe "raw footage" than footage they deem to be sufficiently mediated to not be trusted. But dig just a little into this video, and the protestors are responding this way not because the student is Jewish, but because they are filming the protestors despite being asked, repeatedly, not to do so. And given that pro-Palestine students have been doxxed by right-wing nutters, in part facilitated by social media, it's an understandable fear. Personally, I find chanting "A Zionist has infiltrated our camp and now we need to push them out" to be a bit counterproductive, but these are college students, they are allowed to sometimes miss the the mark on the optics of their actions. To address the user I've quoted, on the one hand I agree that no group of students should get to turn a part of campus, which belongs to all students, into an autonomous space with their own set of rules - on the other hand, I appreciate that the other side has already done real harm to college kids simply on the basis of them supporting Palestine so I can see why they'd be protective against filming. In any case, I don't think they're being antisemitic in the video - they are simply responding to students being aggressive towards them.
Meanwhile, if it wasn't for social media, I'd probably never know the name Shai Davidai. I'm sure he'd write some angry op-eds if we were back in old days of print media, but that would be about it. Instead, he's managed to make the whole situation much worse by antagonizing students online and in-person, drawing national attention to what should be a local matter, and building a fanbase that has begun coming out to support him and escalate tensions (many of which, have nothing to do with Columbia). I know a few Columbia professors, and the guy is generally reviled among the faculty - he does not represent them certainly, and again, if this was being handled as an internal campus issue, he'd just be the campus crank - instead he able to wield this power through the following he's built on social media.
Anyway, sorry if this is a bit rambley, the piano has been drinking.
posted by coffeecat at 6:41 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
On the main topic of the actual post, I'll say the following: I'm not happy that Elise Stefanik is now in charge of campus conduct and speech in American academia.
posted by mr_roboto at 6:58 PM on April 22 [19 favorites]
posted by mr_roboto at 6:58 PM on April 22 [19 favorites]
From many Jews’ perspectives, pro-Palestinian protestors are bedfellows with these people, even if they do not intend it - because in their speech and action there is inherent support and advancement of the beliefs of the people who wish actual harm to Jews.
Can you clarify what you mean by that? What speech & action are you talking about? I want to give a generous interpretation, but the wording seems perilously close to suggesting that supporting Palestinians is akin to wishing harm on Jews.
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:02 PM on April 22 [15 favorites]
Can you clarify what you mean by that? What speech & action are you talking about? I want to give a generous interpretation, but the wording seems perilously close to suggesting that supporting Palestinians is akin to wishing harm on Jews.
posted by Saxon Kane at 7:02 PM on April 22 [15 favorites]
I think it’s important to unpack what these accusations of antisemitism mean in this specific context. For disclosure, I’ve taught Columbia undergrads Middle East politics. There are two groups of kids who are interested in Israel/Palestine, two groups of kids who at members of groups like students for justice in Palestine. Those two groups are: Arab and/or Muslim kids, and Jewish kids. These two groups comprise the overwhelming majority of Israel/Palestine activism on Columbias campus and probably elsewhere. It’s important to recognize that these accusations of antisemitism are designed to do two things: shut brown people up, and paint anti-Zionist Jews as somehow not really Jewish.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:21 PM on April 22 [22 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:21 PM on April 22 [22 favorites]
Can you clarify what you mean by that? What speech & action are you talking about? I want to give a generous interpretation, but the wording seems perilously close to suggesting that supporting Palestinians is akin to wishing harm on Jews.
Off the top of my head:
- chanting “from the river to the sea” - this is a direct call for the elimination of Israel’s right to exist.
- hearing a college professor publicly describe how he was “exhilarated” by the events of October 7th.
It is absolutely possible to support Palestinians without wishing harm on Jews. But there is a lot of intentional and unintentional overlap between supporting Palestine and wishing harm on Jews.
posted by gnutron at 7:33 PM on April 22 [5 favorites]
Off the top of my head:
- chanting “from the river to the sea” - this is a direct call for the elimination of Israel’s right to exist.
- hearing a college professor publicly describe how he was “exhilarated” by the events of October 7th.
It is absolutely possible to support Palestinians without wishing harm on Jews. But there is a lot of intentional and unintentional overlap between supporting Palestine and wishing harm on Jews.
posted by gnutron at 7:33 PM on April 22 [5 favorites]
I love this series of comments. Starts out with something like “gee wilikers, I’m just a simple person who is non ideological. I support Palestine abstractly. But I’m really bothered by some of the gross antisemitism I hear” then when pressed it’s “I heard a slogan I didn’t understand but whatevs it’s actually vile racism.”
Like clockwork.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:39 PM on April 22 [25 favorites]
Like clockwork.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:39 PM on April 22 [25 favorites]
Thanks MisanthropicPainforest, for quickly jumping in to invalidate my perspective.
Like clockwork. This used to be a nice place. Now I’ll show myself the door.
posted by gnutron at 7:50 PM on April 22 [5 favorites]
Like clockwork. This used to be a nice place. Now I’ll show myself the door.
posted by gnutron at 7:50 PM on April 22 [5 favorites]
chanting “from the river to the sea”
Please check the Likud party charter too, while you're at it.
posted by cendawanita at 8:08 PM on April 22 [17 favorites]
Please check the Likud party charter too, while you're at it.
posted by cendawanita at 8:08 PM on April 22 [17 favorites]
I dunno, I have lefty friends happy that “Hamas is still fighting the good fight”, which … they have never done. In that context I can believe people are targeting all Jews with their words in the same way the ridiculously dumb “all cops are bastards” sprayed spittle all over a good debate. I’m more of a candlelight vigil guy - I can’t get down with people yelling at each other, especially since as a former young yeller I realize the yelling was more about my personal anger.
Also are there two Columbia letters being discussed? I read the first one and it seemed totally fine to me, but then someone linked one that congratulated Hamas for breaking the wall on 10/7, which, fuck whoever wrote that, man.
posted by caviar2d2 at 8:10 PM on April 22 [1 favorite]
Also are there two Columbia letters being discussed? I read the first one and it seemed totally fine to me, but then someone linked one that congratulated Hamas for breaking the wall on 10/7, which, fuck whoever wrote that, man.
posted by caviar2d2 at 8:10 PM on April 22 [1 favorite]
But here’s what I’d like to communicate. There are people that sincerely wish to harm, intimidate, and threaten Jewish people right now. From many Jews’ perspectives, pro-Palestinian protestors are bedfellows with these people, even if they do not intend it - because in their speech and action there is inherent support and advancement of the beliefs of the people who wish actual harm to Jews. Jewish people are not synonymous with the policies of the Israeli far right. Harming, intimidating, and threatening Jewish people does not move the situation towards peaceI understand unsavory elements exist but you can't honestly believe an entire movement whose highest priority is stopping the ongoing military campaign and humanitarian relief are all in it because they hate Jews. If you believe over half the population is supportive of anti-Semitism then you have already lost. Honest question: Is there any pro-Palestinian group with a message you can get behind?
- chanting “from the river to the sea” - this is a direct call for the elimination of Israel’s right to exist."From the river to the sea" was originally a Zionist formulation! It's part of Likud's original manifesto! From my perspective, the attempts to portray the rallying cry as some sort of eliminationist rhetoric function only to paint pro-Palestinian protestors as supportive of "terrorists" and make them targets for state suppression. I promise you the overwhelmingly vast majority of people do not support this interpretation.
posted by ndr at 8:33 PM on April 22 [23 favorites]
Still, I can't help but feel that as we approach the seventh month of active violence (the longest Operation yet; and even saying 'active' is a misnomer when Oct 6 there was already a report that 2023 was the most violent year for Palestinian children), trying to tie the conversation as an equivalence of fandom behaviour between Team 'military wing of a political resistance of an occupied population' with Team 'actual state-supported military actors being resourced by other countries officially (not via mere proxy)' as means to diminish people objecting against genocide and (crucially for this topic) their institution's support for it is incredibly in bad-faith (not to mention outdated and blind to the urgency of a death toll that is probably comfortably pushing 40,000 dead just in Gaza alone). It's also in bad faith because unfortunately as evidenced by the earlier FPP just next to this one, I still remember the conversation over supporting Ukraine and how the existence of neo-nazis or nationalist military wings like the Azov battalion must not be a distraction from supporting Ukraine against Russian invasion. Where's the ability for nuance now?
It's also sad - I push back so much against wahhabists (for example) and islamofascists using our shared religious identity for political ends because those politicians don't deserve to keep my community in captive but perhaps I had the mental space to do so because villainizing such folks is par of the course in the society I live in, but is it that comfortable living by the terms set out by the most dishonest actors claiming to be in community?
But it's also another facet of trying to engage with this fear for me. It's readily apparent the appeals to sympathy was designed for a majoritarian audience like white Americans. As though Muslim Americans and Palestinian Americans on US soil haven't literally been physically harmed and even lost their lives against the backdrop of societal shifts happening right now. But always we must hear the terms of the argument as set out by those partial to the actually existing nation-states (a political entity that is hard to disappear - in fact the opposite situation is more common), as though Palestinians must always be the one to establish they're the most moral, but not the nation who has numerous times been operating in bad faith and in violent ways, SUPPORTED by other states, which brings us to these protests. Intersectionality isn't a question of oppression Olympics - the moment when you can't access moral superiority and therefore rhetorical success just by demonstrating your politicised identity is the worst-done by is always the threshold I've noticed where the exit is announced (this also looks like when people have to tap out because the privileged group cannot see past their prejudices, it's true - which is why the mechanics or acts to me means nothing until the context is set).
Anyway: (Guardian) Anti-woke Republicans attacked Columbia University. It capitulated (by Alisa Solomon, Marianne Hirsch, Sarah Haley and Helen Benedict)
As Jewish faculty at Columbia University, we watched with alarm as our president, Minouche Shafik, appeared before the House education and workforce committee on Wednesday to answer questions about antisemitism on our campus. While we are deeply concerned about antisemitism, we are also disturbed by the ways the hearing – like those in December, and surely those to follow – used specious charges of rampant antisemitism to advance an illiberal agenda.
We were shocked that President Shafik capitulated to its mendacious premises and failed to stand up for fundamental academic principles of honest intellectual inquiry and free expression. Most galling was the absence of any acknowledgment of the relentless devastation in Gaza: the urgent reason for the student protests that the committee caricatures and condemns as antisemitic.
posted by cendawanita at 8:36 PM on April 22 [11 favorites]
It's also sad - I push back so much against wahhabists (for example) and islamofascists using our shared religious identity for political ends because those politicians don't deserve to keep my community in captive but perhaps I had the mental space to do so because villainizing such folks is par of the course in the society I live in, but is it that comfortable living by the terms set out by the most dishonest actors claiming to be in community?
But it's also another facet of trying to engage with this fear for me. It's readily apparent the appeals to sympathy was designed for a majoritarian audience like white Americans. As though Muslim Americans and Palestinian Americans on US soil haven't literally been physically harmed and even lost their lives against the backdrop of societal shifts happening right now. But always we must hear the terms of the argument as set out by those partial to the actually existing nation-states (a political entity that is hard to disappear - in fact the opposite situation is more common), as though Palestinians must always be the one to establish they're the most moral, but not the nation who has numerous times been operating in bad faith and in violent ways, SUPPORTED by other states, which brings us to these protests. Intersectionality isn't a question of oppression Olympics - the moment when you can't access moral superiority and therefore rhetorical success just by demonstrating your politicised identity is the worst-done by is always the threshold I've noticed where the exit is announced (this also looks like when people have to tap out because the privileged group cannot see past their prejudices, it's true - which is why the mechanics or acts to me means nothing until the context is set).
Anyway: (Guardian) Anti-woke Republicans attacked Columbia University. It capitulated (by Alisa Solomon, Marianne Hirsch, Sarah Haley and Helen Benedict)
As Jewish faculty at Columbia University, we watched with alarm as our president, Minouche Shafik, appeared before the House education and workforce committee on Wednesday to answer questions about antisemitism on our campus. While we are deeply concerned about antisemitism, we are also disturbed by the ways the hearing – like those in December, and surely those to follow – used specious charges of rampant antisemitism to advance an illiberal agenda.
We were shocked that President Shafik capitulated to its mendacious premises and failed to stand up for fundamental academic principles of honest intellectual inquiry and free expression. Most galling was the absence of any acknowledgment of the relentless devastation in Gaza: the urgent reason for the student protests that the committee caricatures and condemns as antisemitic.
posted by cendawanita at 8:36 PM on April 22 [11 favorites]
chanting “from the river to the sea”
Palestine will be free.
Which is the problem, right, because I've had it explained by liberals I used to vaguely respect so many times in the last 6 months that Palestinian self-determination and human rights are a direct threat to Israel, which must be allowed to exist as an ethnonationalist state. So avowing freedom for Palestine *is* seen as violence.
posted by Audreynachrome at 8:37 PM on April 22 [20 favorites]
Palestine will be free.
Which is the problem, right, because I've had it explained by liberals I used to vaguely respect so many times in the last 6 months that Palestinian self-determination and human rights are a direct threat to Israel, which must be allowed to exist as an ethnonationalist state. So avowing freedom for Palestine *is* seen as violence.
posted by Audreynachrome at 8:37 PM on April 22 [20 favorites]
And look at how hard the institutions are pulling at the bit just to keep their reins on the apparently untouchable premise that Israel as a country is above any reproach, this is from Harvard 2 weeks ago: Harvard Undergraduate Association Indefinitely Postpones Student Referendum on Israel Divestment:
A referendum on whether Harvard should divest from institutions supporting “Israel’s occupation of Palestine” was postponed indefinitely after two Harvard Undergraduate Association officers invoked an obscure procedural motion to delay the vote.
The postponement prompted a wave of backlash from undergraduate pro-Palestine activists, who claimed that the postponement represented another example of an effort to suppress pro-Palestinian speech on Harvard’s campus.
The Harvard Undergraduate Palestine Solidarity Committee successfully passed a petition three days earlier to initiate the referendum. The vote would have been the latest in a series of student government votes across Harvard’s schools calling for the University to divest from institutions with financial ties to Israel’s war on Gaza or settlements in the West Bank.
Two HUA executive officers moved to form a problem-solving team to “solve a dispute” regarding the referendums section of the HUA’s constitution and bylaws, according to an email sent by the HUA Election Commission to PSC.
“All referendums, including those received today, are postponed pending the acceptance of the Problem Solving Team’s recommendations,” the Election Commission wrote.
I remember there was a public protest in my historically (in the last 40 years) averse-to-public-demos country (on account they're being made functionally illegal). I remember feeling skepticism about the movement and the organisers and thinking that I could see they're not the people I would support 100%. Then various institutional barriers were set up: no cars in the city; the metro was paused specifically for the stops nearby the area of protest; etc. Seeing all that hinkiness was enough for me - I might not agree entirely but they deserve to have their moment.
I think something similar is happening. A Streisand effect, if you will.
posted by cendawanita at 8:58 PM on April 22 [6 favorites]
A referendum on whether Harvard should divest from institutions supporting “Israel’s occupation of Palestine” was postponed indefinitely after two Harvard Undergraduate Association officers invoked an obscure procedural motion to delay the vote.
The postponement prompted a wave of backlash from undergraduate pro-Palestine activists, who claimed that the postponement represented another example of an effort to suppress pro-Palestinian speech on Harvard’s campus.
The Harvard Undergraduate Palestine Solidarity Committee successfully passed a petition three days earlier to initiate the referendum. The vote would have been the latest in a series of student government votes across Harvard’s schools calling for the University to divest from institutions with financial ties to Israel’s war on Gaza or settlements in the West Bank.
Two HUA executive officers moved to form a problem-solving team to “solve a dispute” regarding the referendums section of the HUA’s constitution and bylaws, according to an email sent by the HUA Election Commission to PSC.
“All referendums, including those received today, are postponed pending the acceptance of the Problem Solving Team’s recommendations,” the Election Commission wrote.
I remember there was a public protest in my historically (in the last 40 years) averse-to-public-demos country (on account they're being made functionally illegal). I remember feeling skepticism about the movement and the organisers and thinking that I could see they're not the people I would support 100%. Then various institutional barriers were set up: no cars in the city; the metro was paused specifically for the stops nearby the area of protest; etc. Seeing all that hinkiness was enough for me - I might not agree entirely but they deserve to have their moment.
I think something similar is happening. A Streisand effect, if you will.
posted by cendawanita at 8:58 PM on April 22 [6 favorites]
Punishing personal opinions is the first step to authoritarianism - a defense of USC valedictorian Asna Tabassum by Wolf Gruner, Shapell-Guerin Chair in Jewish Studies and Professor of History - Founding Director, USC Dornsife Center for Advanced Genocide Research:
As the Shapell-Guerin Chair in Jewish Studies and founding director of the USC Dornsife Center for Advanced Genocide Research, as well as the cofounder and academic advisor for the resistance to genocide minor, I am appalled that you seem to have fallen for a campaign which conflates antisemitism with pro-Palestinian or anti-Israel views for political purposes.
I have dedicated my life to the study of antisemitism. I have written 10 books on the Holocaust. But as a result of this political campaign against Tabassum and her connection to the resistance to genocide minor, I am now being called an antisemite on social media. This is a first in a long career, but it should demonstrate to you how ridiculous, absurd, unfounded and untrue all these accusations are, in my case as much as in Tabassum’s.
A picture of the students in the Columbia encampment celebrating Passover. Live updates from NYUNews. UMich students camp out for full divestment. Encampment at UC Berkeley.
Columbia U. students working overtime to get reporting right: Karam said she and her fellow reporters and editors have worked hard to distinguish the faculty and student protests on the campus from the chaos beyond its gated walls, which she said have gotten conflated, often leading to the breathless coverage from outside media..
“It's sort of hard to make that distinction sometimes super clear where these are the protesters who are off campus and might be coming from around the city versus the students who are on campus,” Karam said. “We have seen many arrests off-campus since Thursday, but we have not seen any arrests on campus since Thursday. So the distinction is hard to make sometimes, and I think what can be lost is sort of that nuance.”
Knight Institute calls for urgent course correction: Here, again, we were dismayed that neither you nor the co-chairs defended foundational free speech principles. This campus has often been a venue for impassioned political debate. Often that debate has included speech that some find offensive. But there is no convincing argument that the pro-Palestinian slogans in themselves constitute threats or harassment as those terms are defined by Columbia’s policies. While in theory the University could carve these slogans out from the protection usually afforded to political speech, it could not do so without doing immense damage to principles that are central to any community that privileges free inquiry and the production of knowledge. Once one accepts that these political slogans can be rebranded as harassment or suppressed on the grounds that they are offensive or hurtful to others, there is no principled basis to limit the suppression to only these slogans.
posted by toastyk at 9:14 PM on April 22 [20 favorites]
As the Shapell-Guerin Chair in Jewish Studies and founding director of the USC Dornsife Center for Advanced Genocide Research, as well as the cofounder and academic advisor for the resistance to genocide minor, I am appalled that you seem to have fallen for a campaign which conflates antisemitism with pro-Palestinian or anti-Israel views for political purposes.
I have dedicated my life to the study of antisemitism. I have written 10 books on the Holocaust. But as a result of this political campaign against Tabassum and her connection to the resistance to genocide minor, I am now being called an antisemite on social media. This is a first in a long career, but it should demonstrate to you how ridiculous, absurd, unfounded and untrue all these accusations are, in my case as much as in Tabassum’s.
A picture of the students in the Columbia encampment celebrating Passover. Live updates from NYUNews. UMich students camp out for full divestment. Encampment at UC Berkeley.
Columbia U. students working overtime to get reporting right: Karam said she and her fellow reporters and editors have worked hard to distinguish the faculty and student protests on the campus from the chaos beyond its gated walls, which she said have gotten conflated, often leading to the breathless coverage from outside media..
“It's sort of hard to make that distinction sometimes super clear where these are the protesters who are off campus and might be coming from around the city versus the students who are on campus,” Karam said. “We have seen many arrests off-campus since Thursday, but we have not seen any arrests on campus since Thursday. So the distinction is hard to make sometimes, and I think what can be lost is sort of that nuance.”
Knight Institute calls for urgent course correction: Here, again, we were dismayed that neither you nor the co-chairs defended foundational free speech principles. This campus has often been a venue for impassioned political debate. Often that debate has included speech that some find offensive. But there is no convincing argument that the pro-Palestinian slogans in themselves constitute threats or harassment as those terms are defined by Columbia’s policies. While in theory the University could carve these slogans out from the protection usually afforded to political speech, it could not do so without doing immense damage to principles that are central to any community that privileges free inquiry and the production of knowledge. Once one accepts that these political slogans can be rebranded as harassment or suppressed on the grounds that they are offensive or hurtful to others, there is no principled basis to limit the suppression to only these slogans.
posted by toastyk at 9:14 PM on April 22 [20 favorites]
It is a great pity that so many people have become so incandescent over others' perceived failures to adequately condemn Hamas as to blind themselves to whose ongoing abuses of power are responsible for the rise of that organization in the first place.
Ongoing threats to the safety of Israeli civilians, from sporadic rocket fire all the way to the atrocities perpetrated by Hamas on October 7th, are predictable and predicted consequences of longstanding policy made by the powers in full military control of the region from the Jordan to the sea: the Israeli government, aided and abetted by that of the US.
Hamas should not exist. It should not need to. But the idea that it is possible to "eliminate Hamas" by intensifying the horror that created and sustains it is the most fundamentally stupid I've seen in my 62 years on this planet. The idea that inflicting multiple lifetimes of grinding oppression upon a population deemed threatening would reduce rather than perpetuate that threat runs a very close second.
posted by flabdablet at 9:21 PM on April 22 [33 favorites]
Ongoing threats to the safety of Israeli civilians, from sporadic rocket fire all the way to the atrocities perpetrated by Hamas on October 7th, are predictable and predicted consequences of longstanding policy made by the powers in full military control of the region from the Jordan to the sea: the Israeli government, aided and abetted by that of the US.
Hamas should not exist. It should not need to. But the idea that it is possible to "eliminate Hamas" by intensifying the horror that created and sustains it is the most fundamentally stupid I've seen in my 62 years on this planet. The idea that inflicting multiple lifetimes of grinding oppression upon a population deemed threatening would reduce rather than perpetuate that threat runs a very close second.
posted by flabdablet at 9:21 PM on April 22 [33 favorites]
Thanks MisanthropicPainforest, for quickly jumping in to invalidate my perspective.
Like clockwork. This used to be a nice place. Now I’ll show myself the door.
I'm so sorry that you feel like it's no longer nice! But frankly, I'm going to be shouting "from the river to sea" as you see yourself to the door. I'm sorry if it makes you sad. But I hope you understand that what you are experiencing as I and my POC and Palestinian comrades shout "from the river to the sea" has absolutely nothing to do with racism.
So very sorry!
And I hope you understand that as more people who are the victims of American and European imperialism (like myself and my family) immigrate to the US, there will be fewer and fewer "nice place[s]" where you can hide from the violence of that imperialism
Also, from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free! From the sea to the river, Palestine will live forever..
posted by lizard2590 at 9:30 PM on April 22 [19 favorites]
Like clockwork. This used to be a nice place. Now I’ll show myself the door.
I'm so sorry that you feel like it's no longer nice! But frankly, I'm going to be shouting "from the river to sea" as you see yourself to the door. I'm sorry if it makes you sad. But I hope you understand that what you are experiencing as I and my POC and Palestinian comrades shout "from the river to the sea" has absolutely nothing to do with racism.
So very sorry!
And I hope you understand that as more people who are the victims of American and European imperialism (like myself and my family) immigrate to the US, there will be fewer and fewer "nice place[s]" where you can hide from the violence of that imperialism
Also, from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free! From the sea to the river, Palestine will live forever..
posted by lizard2590 at 9:30 PM on April 22 [19 favorites]
I went to Columbia, live around the corner from campus, and have been walking through. Some observations:
- The NYPD presence is completely disproportionate. There are cops everywhere in the neighborhood now, completely ringing the campus, bristling with guns, far outnumbering the protestors on Broadway.
- Within campus, the mood is closer to festival / carnival than chaos (at least during the daytime, when I've been). Students milling around, chants / circles, tables set up for food and supplies, prayer groups, hugs and high-fives. Kids being kids.
- Jewish students have played a leadership role in organizing the protests from the very start: I saw many signs from Jewish Voice For Peace, and several students walking around with watermelon (and non-watermelon) yarmulkes. There have been Shabbat and Passover services in the encampment (which, to be clear, is a bunch of tents set up on a lawn)
- There has always been a creepy fringe of extreme radicals who are attracted to Columbia, and get especially activated by stuff like this. There are some LaRouche followers who show up with pamphlets and posters at the farmers market every week, and Bob Avakian and the RCP were on the march today. I have no reason to doubt that some of these folks would spew vile antisemitism, and the stories in the Columbia Spectator article linked upthread were genuinely horrifying. At the same time, I'm not sure what the student groups are supposed to do about this other than condemn it (which they've done).
- The only explicit invocation of violence I witnessed was a woman walking down Broadway yelling "Hamas is going to kill you" at anyone she could see wearing a keffiyeh. I had to chuckle at a student with her friends who responded, without missing a beat, with a pitch-perfect "okay loserrrrr."
- You see keffiyehs everywhere on the streets, worn by basically a complete cross-section of race / gender / age. It's about as concrete an instantiation of solidarity as you could hope to find, and it warms my heart.
- IMO all of the noise has kind of obscured the fundamental reasonability of the protestors' demands. Columbia currently has policies that prevent direct investment in tobacco companies, thermal coal companies, and private prison operators. From 2006 - 2020 there was a policy preventing investment in companies that operated in Sudan. There is nothing a priori absurd or unrealistic about wanting to add Israel to that list. For whatever it's worth, a recent referendum of students at the College recommended divestment with 76% of the vote.
- Columbia is normally a completely open campus. The campus is in the middle of the city grid (116th street runs through campus), and people in the neighborhood are used to being able to cut through. Closing the campus to the public (I can get in with my alumni card) is a major disruption, and almost unprecedented (I can never really remember it happening when I was in school).
- It's kind of bizarre to see my neighborhood on the front page of the newspaper, and frankly it's ridiculous. Walking around campus you see camera crews and confused-looking journalists with press passes trying to figure out how they're going to manufacture a story out of a bunch of college students chanting some slogans on a sunny day. Kids holding a protest over asset allocation policy is not and should not be national news when the former president is on criminal trial, and innocent people are being starved to death every day.
posted by rishabguha at 9:37 PM on April 22 [48 favorites]
- The NYPD presence is completely disproportionate. There are cops everywhere in the neighborhood now, completely ringing the campus, bristling with guns, far outnumbering the protestors on Broadway.
- Within campus, the mood is closer to festival / carnival than chaos (at least during the daytime, when I've been). Students milling around, chants / circles, tables set up for food and supplies, prayer groups, hugs and high-fives. Kids being kids.
- Jewish students have played a leadership role in organizing the protests from the very start: I saw many signs from Jewish Voice For Peace, and several students walking around with watermelon (and non-watermelon) yarmulkes. There have been Shabbat and Passover services in the encampment (which, to be clear, is a bunch of tents set up on a lawn)
- There has always been a creepy fringe of extreme radicals who are attracted to Columbia, and get especially activated by stuff like this. There are some LaRouche followers who show up with pamphlets and posters at the farmers market every week, and Bob Avakian and the RCP were on the march today. I have no reason to doubt that some of these folks would spew vile antisemitism, and the stories in the Columbia Spectator article linked upthread were genuinely horrifying. At the same time, I'm not sure what the student groups are supposed to do about this other than condemn it (which they've done).
- The only explicit invocation of violence I witnessed was a woman walking down Broadway yelling "Hamas is going to kill you" at anyone she could see wearing a keffiyeh. I had to chuckle at a student with her friends who responded, without missing a beat, with a pitch-perfect "okay loserrrrr."
- You see keffiyehs everywhere on the streets, worn by basically a complete cross-section of race / gender / age. It's about as concrete an instantiation of solidarity as you could hope to find, and it warms my heart.
- IMO all of the noise has kind of obscured the fundamental reasonability of the protestors' demands. Columbia currently has policies that prevent direct investment in tobacco companies, thermal coal companies, and private prison operators. From 2006 - 2020 there was a policy preventing investment in companies that operated in Sudan. There is nothing a priori absurd or unrealistic about wanting to add Israel to that list. For whatever it's worth, a recent referendum of students at the College recommended divestment with 76% of the vote.
- Columbia is normally a completely open campus. The campus is in the middle of the city grid (116th street runs through campus), and people in the neighborhood are used to being able to cut through. Closing the campus to the public (I can get in with my alumni card) is a major disruption, and almost unprecedented (I can never really remember it happening when I was in school).
- It's kind of bizarre to see my neighborhood on the front page of the newspaper, and frankly it's ridiculous. Walking around campus you see camera crews and confused-looking journalists with press passes trying to figure out how they're going to manufacture a story out of a bunch of college students chanting some slogans on a sunny day. Kids holding a protest over asset allocation policy is not and should not be national news when the former president is on criminal trial, and innocent people are being starved to death every day.
posted by rishabguha at 9:37 PM on April 22 [48 favorites]
"allowed" and "flourish" seems to be doing a lot of work esp, unlike Gaza or the West Bank and East Jerusalem, we have actual Mefites in this very thread reporting from the location whose descriptions don't match the intensity of those words.
posted by cendawanita at 9:48 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:48 PM on April 22 [7 favorites]
I think it's pretty clear that one massive axis of this divide in this country is a generational one.
And we older Americans are the only ones who get taken seriously so the viewpoint of younger Americans is marginalized away and treated in bad faith. In the halls of government, in the press, in mainstream society, and, of course, on MetaFilter.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:50 PM on April 22 [12 favorites]
And we older Americans are the only ones who get taken seriously so the viewpoint of younger Americans is marginalized away and treated in bad faith. In the halls of government, in the press, in mainstream society, and, of course, on MetaFilter.
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:50 PM on April 22 [12 favorites]
You are racist and anti-Semitic, and I hope that at one point you have the capability to feel ashamed of yourself.
So very ashamed. Thanks for the reality check!
I'm sure I'll be ashamed forever and my fellow Muslim and Palestinian comrades alongside me will so terribly ashamed of our awful anti-Semitism. Egg on my face.
We are definitely the folks who will look back on our role during this genocide and think that we were the ones on the wrong side of history.
posted by lizard2590 at 10:09 PM on April 22 [18 favorites]
So very ashamed. Thanks for the reality check!
I'm sure I'll be ashamed forever and my fellow Muslim and Palestinian comrades alongside me will so terribly ashamed of our awful anti-Semitism. Egg on my face.
We are definitely the folks who will look back on our role during this genocide and think that we were the ones on the wrong side of history.
posted by lizard2590 at 10:09 PM on April 22 [18 favorites]
I'm so sorry that you feel like it's no longer nice! But frankly, I'm going to be shouting "from the river to sea" as you see yourself to the door. I'm sorry if it makes you sad.
You are racist and anti-Semitic, and I hope that at one point you have the capability to feel ashamed of yourself.
I'm going to unpack this a little more to explain.
"From the river to the sea" is not an anti-Semitic chant. Even if it is a "a direct call for the elimination of Israel’s right to exist" - it is not an anti-Semitic chant, because the state of Israel is not synonymous with all Jews, no matter what it would like people to believe. An apartheid state does not have the right to exist. (I hold, of course, as the resident anarchist, the position no nation-state has a right to exist, but I recognize that's a minority position)
But a state is not its people. If I were to call for the destruction of the United States of America as an imperialist nation that does harm abroad and that incarcerates more of its citizens than any other nation, that would not call for the destruction of everyone currently residing within its borders. It's just a state. A state can't feel. Unlike the millions of people currently starving to death in Gaza, it has no immortal human soul.
When Austria-Hungary lost WW1, the winning side demanded that nationalist movements within Austria Hungary be permitted the chance to break it up. And...they did. And somehow, the people kept on keeping on. Who weeps now for Austria-Hungary? The people of Israel, even if the state of Israel were destroyed, would be fine. States don't create safety. They create war, and famine, and misery.
posted by corb at 10:14 PM on April 22 [36 favorites]
You are racist and anti-Semitic, and I hope that at one point you have the capability to feel ashamed of yourself.
I'm going to unpack this a little more to explain.
"From the river to the sea" is not an anti-Semitic chant. Even if it is a "a direct call for the elimination of Israel’s right to exist" - it is not an anti-Semitic chant, because the state of Israel is not synonymous with all Jews, no matter what it would like people to believe. An apartheid state does not have the right to exist. (I hold, of course, as the resident anarchist, the position no nation-state has a right to exist, but I recognize that's a minority position)
But a state is not its people. If I were to call for the destruction of the United States of America as an imperialist nation that does harm abroad and that incarcerates more of its citizens than any other nation, that would not call for the destruction of everyone currently residing within its borders. It's just a state. A state can't feel. Unlike the millions of people currently starving to death in Gaza, it has no immortal human soul.
When Austria-Hungary lost WW1, the winning side demanded that nationalist movements within Austria Hungary be permitted the chance to break it up. And...they did. And somehow, the people kept on keeping on. Who weeps now for Austria-Hungary? The people of Israel, even if the state of Israel were destroyed, would be fine. States don't create safety. They create war, and famine, and misery.
posted by corb at 10:14 PM on April 22 [36 favorites]
I'm sure I'll be ashamed forever and my fellow Muslim and Palestinian comrades alongside me will so terribly ashamed of our awful anti-Semitism. Egg on my face.
I mean, if it helps others, Muslim-majority and Arab countries are definitely complicit in this injustice too. Like, that's not even theoretical but it's always funny even when it's established in a specific discussion space that the active pro-Palestinian voices are cognizant of this fact somehow it's a fact that is wrapped in invisibility. I suppose one can't really use the "well other Muslims are on-board with Israel's right to defend itself," argument when one's baseline larger premise has always been the villainization of non-European cultural groups specifically the group from which "Orientalism" was first conceptualized about. To use other Muslims and Arabs as a criteria of support for Israel?? Yet that fact is literally right there. I wonder why.
posted by cendawanita at 10:24 PM on April 22 [3 favorites]
I mean, if it helps others, Muslim-majority and Arab countries are definitely complicit in this injustice too. Like, that's not even theoretical but it's always funny even when it's established in a specific discussion space that the active pro-Palestinian voices are cognizant of this fact somehow it's a fact that is wrapped in invisibility. I suppose one can't really use the "well other Muslims are on-board with Israel's right to defend itself," argument when one's baseline larger premise has always been the villainization of non-European cultural groups specifically the group from which "Orientalism" was first conceptualized about. To use other Muslims and Arabs as a criteria of support for Israel?? Yet that fact is literally right there. I wonder why.
posted by cendawanita at 10:24 PM on April 22 [3 favorites]
the state of Israel is not synonymous with all Jews, no matter what it would like people to believe
It's not even synonymous with all Israelis.
As I've said before, a State's right to exist does not imply that it also has a right to continue flouting international law, and the dismantling of South Africa's apartheid did not make South Africa cease to exist.
posted by flabdablet at 11:24 PM on April 22 [13 favorites]
It's not even synonymous with all Israelis.
As I've said before, a State's right to exist does not imply that it also has a right to continue flouting international law, and the dismantling of South Africa's apartheid did not make South Africa cease to exist.
posted by flabdablet at 11:24 PM on April 22 [13 favorites]
States don't create safety. They create war, and famine, and misery.
I used to believe pretty passionately in this line of reasoning, but the older I've got, the more I've come to understand that people are perfectly capable of banding together to create war, famine and misery whether in the name of a formal State or not. Give anarchy a few centuries to evolve and you just get States, because hierarchical control is the most potent means of organizing power and the collective power of large groups is always and everywhere greater than that of small ones.
And States do create welfare, and resist to some extent the rapaciousness of private enclosures of the commons. Almost none are as good at that as they should be, but they're better at it than corporations.
posted by flabdablet at 11:34 PM on April 22 [8 favorites]
I used to believe pretty passionately in this line of reasoning, but the older I've got, the more I've come to understand that people are perfectly capable of banding together to create war, famine and misery whether in the name of a formal State or not. Give anarchy a few centuries to evolve and you just get States, because hierarchical control is the most potent means of organizing power and the collective power of large groups is always and everywhere greater than that of small ones.
And States do create welfare, and resist to some extent the rapaciousness of private enclosures of the commons. Almost none are as good at that as they should be, but they're better at it than corporations.
posted by flabdablet at 11:34 PM on April 22 [8 favorites]
The point I'm making there is that there's no getting rid of States, so our next best option is reconstructing them along the most humane lines available. I think the UN was a good step in that direction, and I hope that some day the Empire will get over its self-limiting need to fuck with it.
posted by flabdablet at 11:41 PM on April 22 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 11:41 PM on April 22 [2 favorites]
Mod note: One deleted; don't attack fellow members. Please just discuss the post topic, share information and express your own thoughts.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:52 PM on April 22
posted by taz (staff) at 11:52 PM on April 22
Give anarchy a few centuries to evolve and you just get States
anarchism is if anything in many ways like housecleaning, cyclic work
posted by away for regrooving at 11:59 PM on April 22 [8 favorites]
anarchism is if anything in many ways like housecleaning, cyclic work
posted by away for regrooving at 11:59 PM on April 22 [8 favorites]
Walking around campus you see camera crews and confused-looking journalists with press passes trying to figure out how they're going to manufacture a story out of a bunch of college students chanting some slogans on a sunny day.
"Where is the violence? We were told there would be violence."
"Who told you that?"
"Errrr... them!" (fingers of blame pointing in a perfectly simulated circular firing squad)
"I don't know. Maybe you should ask a policeman."
posted by flabdablet at 12:07 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]
"Where is the violence? We were told there would be violence."
"Who told you that?"
"Errrr... them!" (fingers of blame pointing in a perfectly simulated circular firing squad)
"I don't know. Maybe you should ask a policeman."
posted by flabdablet at 12:07 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]
The only explicit invocation of violence I witnessed was a woman walking down Broadway yelling "Hamas is going to kill you" at anyone she could see wearing a keffiyeh. I had to chuckle at a student with her friends who responded, without missing a beat, with a pitch-perfect "okay loserrrrr."
Let's be absolutely clear here: the racism and antisemitism in this thread has been almost entirely from people criticizing the students (many of whom are Jewish) based on cultural markers like those and/or the idea that they are some mixture of brainwashed, idiots, or dangerous agents of a foreign power (lotta libs here believe this is somehow Russia's doing).
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:22 AM on April 23 [6 favorites]
Let's be absolutely clear here: the racism and antisemitism in this thread has been almost entirely from people criticizing the students (many of whom are Jewish) based on cultural markers like those and/or the idea that they are some mixture of brainwashed, idiots, or dangerous agents of a foreign power (lotta libs here believe this is somehow Russia's doing).
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:22 AM on April 23 [6 favorites]
It's also digustingly antisemitic to see so many attempts--from the White House on down--to erase Jewish support and allyship with the protests, as are the attempts of Jews and mainstream Jewish hate groups like the ADL to continually characterize them as bad or worse than Nazis, the KKK, etc.
Lex Rofeberg:
Lex Rofeberg:
Sending love as Passover approaches, to Jewish college students. In particular, a shout to those whose Jewish practices are being invisibilized and rendered anti-Jewish. Your pro-Palestine activism is not a threat to "Jewish students." It is an extension of your Judaism.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:31 AM on April 23 [26 favorites]
There is a conscious framing that operates in discussions about college campuses where "Jewish students" is conflated with "Jewish students who are Zionists," while all Jews who are not Zionists are framed as people who happen to be Jewish, who act in solidarity with non-Jews.
Non and Anti-Zionist organizing on campus is no more a "threat to Jewish students" than Zionist organizing is. All of these constituencies contain Jews and non-Jews. All of them contain Jews who conceptualize their ideologies as an extension of their Jewishness and Judaism.
Every time we pose "Jewish students" on the one hand and "pro-Palestine protesters" on the other, we perpetuate a false dichotomy. Nationally, for years, Jews have not only been present as participants -- but over-represented -- in Palestine solidarity work.
Whenever somebody talks about the safety of "Jewish students" on campus -- ask them which students they are referring to. Do they mean the safety of Jewish students who have had charges pressed against them by their universities for participation in pro-Palestine protests?
Do they mean the safety of Jewish students holding Shabbat observances with Muslim, Christian, and Atheist fellow activists? Not usually. Often it's one set of Jews named as "threat" and another being deemed "threatened" -- with that latter group being "Zionist Jews on campus."
I'm not here to say nobody can make that argument. But make it precisely.
Jews on campus are Zionist, and Anti-Zionist, and I-don't-wanna-talk-about-Zionism, and everything in-between.
If "Jewish students" are your framed concern, you have to actually care about all of them.
If you see Anti-Zionist Jews as something other than the threatened group, "Jewish students," that you're worried about -- turns out you're not worried about Jewish students! You're worried about the group "Jewish students roughly aligned with my politics."
The letter from the Knight First Amendment Institute at Columbia University linked above is excellent, offering a sharp critique of the Columbia admins' ongoing, "viewpoint-discriminatory" responses to the protests, their total abandonment of basic free speech principles at their recent Congressional hearing, and the completely indefensible decision to bring the NYPD onto campus for the first time in decades to arrest peaceful protesters. Worth a read in full.
posted by mediareport at 4:36 AM on April 23 [7 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 4:36 AM on April 23 [7 favorites]
The way these colleges and the news are reporting on these simple protests as antisemitic and how supposedly Jewish people/campus groups are "afraid" yet in the age of modern media they cant cite one sign, soundbyte, or slogan to back up their bullshit, to me speaks volumes.
The crybulling and boths sides-ing going on is either purposefully or ignorantly supporting genocide.
posted by RajahKing at 6:47 AM on April 23 [6 favorites]
The crybulling and boths sides-ing going on is either purposefully or ignorantly supporting genocide.
posted by RajahKing at 6:47 AM on April 23 [6 favorites]
The way these colleges and the news are reporting on these simple protests as antisemitic and how supposedly Jewish people/campus groups are "afraid" yet in the age of modern media they cant cite one sign, soundbyte, or slogan to back up their bullshit, to me speaks volumes.I think part of what is happening is that when some really bad news is breaking in Gaza, like the recent discovery of mass graves in areas that the IDF have pulled out of, the mainstream media doesn't want to cover it.
If you instead create a media cycle about a fancy college melting down over pro Palestine protests you can still "cover the conflict" without talking about the mass graves.
posted by zymil at 7:06 AM on April 23 [22 favorites]
Slate has an interview with Colin Roedl and Milène Klein, the current and former editorial page editors of the Spectator and how they view the ongoing protests:
Why do you imagine rhetoric around Jewish students feeling targeted is rapidly increasing like this, then?
Klein: The increased alarm relates directly to the scale of the protests. The protests are larger than anything we’ve seen before, really, aside from the Oct. 10 protest. As a result, pro-Zionist students feel swamped and don’t feel comfortable making their voices heard as opposition just due to the sheer number and constant physical presence of demonstrators. But just because these students feel unsafe does not mean that the center is going to be overrun by a mob, or endangered by people who are protesting not against Jews, but against Israel. I think the rhetoric is honestly the source of a lot of the alarm, as opposed to what’s actually happening. I think it is scary because it feels like campus has been handed over to the police. It almost feels like a military coup. I actually don’t think it has much to do with the protests at all.
What is national media getting wrong right now?
Roedl: Actively calling for more police contributes to feelings of unsafety. And those feelings of unsafety are contributing to more police. So we’re seeing a feedback loop with absolutely no communication from our administration. That is the uniting point for a lot of people, regardless of politics, that we’re seeing complete silence from our administration. They made the decision to authorize NYPD on campus, and that’s the last time we have heard from her. Updates from the university either through the university required text messages, or by email, like the one we just read aloud, all read more like press statements about what Columbia is doing, rather than what Columbia is doing for its students. We’re getting a lot of criticisms asking where is Shafik and the Columbia administration. That’s what the newsroom is really interested in right now.
posted by toastyk at 7:07 AM on April 23 [16 favorites]
Why do you imagine rhetoric around Jewish students feeling targeted is rapidly increasing like this, then?
Klein: The increased alarm relates directly to the scale of the protests. The protests are larger than anything we’ve seen before, really, aside from the Oct. 10 protest. As a result, pro-Zionist students feel swamped and don’t feel comfortable making their voices heard as opposition just due to the sheer number and constant physical presence of demonstrators. But just because these students feel unsafe does not mean that the center is going to be overrun by a mob, or endangered by people who are protesting not against Jews, but against Israel. I think the rhetoric is honestly the source of a lot of the alarm, as opposed to what’s actually happening. I think it is scary because it feels like campus has been handed over to the police. It almost feels like a military coup. I actually don’t think it has much to do with the protests at all.
What is national media getting wrong right now?
Roedl: Actively calling for more police contributes to feelings of unsafety. And those feelings of unsafety are contributing to more police. So we’re seeing a feedback loop with absolutely no communication from our administration. That is the uniting point for a lot of people, regardless of politics, that we’re seeing complete silence from our administration. They made the decision to authorize NYPD on campus, and that’s the last time we have heard from her. Updates from the university either through the university required text messages, or by email, like the one we just read aloud, all read more like press statements about what Columbia is doing, rather than what Columbia is doing for its students. We’re getting a lot of criticisms asking where is Shafik and the Columbia administration. That’s what the newsroom is really interested in right now.
posted by toastyk at 7:07 AM on April 23 [16 favorites]
There is no turning back, and this terrifies some people
The worst elements of Israeli society are running the show and the worst parts of Israel's history have been exposed. The state-that-could-have-been, the one that white western liberals have imagined, is the ghost of a promised fantasy. A construct that has collapsed under the weight of evidence.
Don't get me wrong, something might persist for years to come, but its brutal nature is perhaps a perfect signal of the century we have chosen. When I tried to articulate this in a different thread, I don't know, people seemed to think I was diminishing something specific to the plight of the Palestinians. I mean this: we must care because this is our fate. For the Christian tradition that hasn't gone full bastard, this is the Body of Christ. I don't have the heritage of Judaism to express it properly, but it's such a colossal betrayal of the messages I've heard from Jewish friends also.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:14 AM on April 23 [10 favorites]
The worst elements of Israeli society are running the show and the worst parts of Israel's history have been exposed. The state-that-could-have-been, the one that white western liberals have imagined, is the ghost of a promised fantasy. A construct that has collapsed under the weight of evidence.
Don't get me wrong, something might persist for years to come, but its brutal nature is perhaps a perfect signal of the century we have chosen. When I tried to articulate this in a different thread, I don't know, people seemed to think I was diminishing something specific to the plight of the Palestinians. I mean this: we must care because this is our fate. For the Christian tradition that hasn't gone full bastard, this is the Body of Christ. I don't have the heritage of Judaism to express it properly, but it's such a colossal betrayal of the messages I've heard from Jewish friends also.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:14 AM on April 23 [10 favorites]
The state of Israel was founded on the ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians, this isn't some fallen dream, this has always been the project.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:22 AM on April 23 [17 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:22 AM on April 23 [17 favorites]
The way these colleges and the news are reporting on these simple protests as antisemitic and how supposedly Jewish people/campus groups are "afraid" yet in the age of modern media they cant cite one sign, soundbyte, or slogan to back up their bullshit, to me speaks volumes.
It's because they aren't actually "afraid" for their actual safety, they are afraid that they are becoming socially ostracized for having shitty views in spaces where common sense is predominant. It's the same reflex as the MAGA Trumpers whining about how no one would date them in DC because everyone is so "intolerant" there - it's just impossible to accept that your views are plain old fucking bad so you have to create a dumb victim complex about it.
Israel-supporting students default to the Israeli government party line which is that it's all antisemitism and it's all threats to Jewish safety and that they should be afraid all the time and that Holocaust 2.0 could happen any minute now and only Daddy Israel can keep Jews safe. But the reality is they just know they risk looking like the colossal fucking losers that they are on campus and this makes them so mad that their views are not "cool", like everything right-wing it's never enough that they are winning the entire policy war and getting basically everything they want, they're so furious that they can't win the youth/hollywood/liberal/campus/social media culture war too. It's the same dynamic as whiney little fucking loser college republicans.
posted by windbox at 7:24 AM on April 23 [29 favorites]
It's because they aren't actually "afraid" for their actual safety, they are afraid that they are becoming socially ostracized for having shitty views in spaces where common sense is predominant. It's the same reflex as the MAGA Trumpers whining about how no one would date them in DC because everyone is so "intolerant" there - it's just impossible to accept that your views are plain old fucking bad so you have to create a dumb victim complex about it.
Israel-supporting students default to the Israeli government party line which is that it's all antisemitism and it's all threats to Jewish safety and that they should be afraid all the time and that Holocaust 2.0 could happen any minute now and only Daddy Israel can keep Jews safe. But the reality is they just know they risk looking like the colossal fucking losers that they are on campus and this makes them so mad that their views are not "cool", like everything right-wing it's never enough that they are winning the entire policy war and getting basically everything they want, they're so furious that they can't win the youth/hollywood/liberal/campus/social media culture war too. It's the same dynamic as whiney little fucking loser college republicans.
posted by windbox at 7:24 AM on April 23 [29 favorites]
The state of Israel was founded on the ethnic cleansing of 750,000 Palestinians, this isn't some fallen dream, this has always been the project.
Is this necessary? Please correct me about the beliefs many generations grew up with in North America, aided and abetted by the full firehose of media and lobbying, because that's what we do here. I'm not suggesting the history is otherwise, I'm telling you that the fantasy was fucking real to people and its realness caused real damage.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:32 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]
Is this necessary? Please correct me about the beliefs many generations grew up with in North America, aided and abetted by the full firehose of media and lobbying, because that's what we do here. I'm not suggesting the history is otherwise, I'm telling you that the fantasy was fucking real to people and its realness caused real damage.
posted by elkevelvet at 7:32 AM on April 23 [3 favorites]
Please correct me about the beliefs many generations grew up with in North America, aided and abetted by the full firehose of media and lobbying, because that's what we do here.
I'm old enough to remember the line "a land without people for a people without land" getting trotted out as a defense of Zionism.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:11 AM on April 23 [8 favorites]
I'm old enough to remember the line "a land without people for a people without land" getting trotted out as a defense of Zionism.
posted by NoxAeternum at 8:11 AM on April 23 [8 favorites]
Please correct me about the beliefs many generations grew up with in North America
Many generations in North America also grew up being told George Custer was a tragic hero and Native Americans were murderous brutes who had it coming. Doesn't mean it was true, though.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:30 AM on April 23 [8 favorites]
Many generations in North America also grew up being told George Custer was a tragic hero and Native Americans were murderous brutes who had it coming. Doesn't mean it was true, though.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:30 AM on April 23 [8 favorites]
Even my "progressive" Reform congregation growing up portrayed Israel as basically a blank slate prior to 1948.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:35 AM on April 23 [5 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 8:35 AM on April 23 [5 favorites]
Meanwhile, on the specific topic of college protests, the University of Pittsburgh’s students started up an encampment to protest Israeli apartheid an hour ago. Their demands are in this Instagram post.
posted by Stacey at 8:55 AM on April 23 [8 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 8:55 AM on April 23 [8 favorites]
I'm old enough to remember the line "a land without people for a people without land" getting trotted out as a defense of Zionism.
Me too. Usually delivered as some kind of punchline, complete with the smug little grin that I've since learned to associate with the dopamine hit that always comes with falling face down into a well-made thought-terminating cliche.
And it worked. My clear understanding as a kid in the early 1970s was that what is now Israel was all basically sand until the kibbutzim "made the desert bloom".
That was some years before I first encountered the term "terra nullius" and began to be appalled by just how much of the history I'd been taught was self-serving lies.
At some point in the 1980s my world-travelling friend came back from the Middle East with stories of having watched as massive Israeli bulldozers came rumbling up the road to the West Bank village he was in and pushed over every house for no apparent reason.
All of us were larval engineers at the time, paying much more attention to programming than to politics. But the casual brutality of that ongoing destruction completely scrubbed the last vestiges of Plucky Little Israel from my own worldview.
posted by flabdablet at 8:58 AM on April 23 [20 favorites]
Me too. Usually delivered as some kind of punchline, complete with the smug little grin that I've since learned to associate with the dopamine hit that always comes with falling face down into a well-made thought-terminating cliche.
And it worked. My clear understanding as a kid in the early 1970s was that what is now Israel was all basically sand until the kibbutzim "made the desert bloom".
That was some years before I first encountered the term "terra nullius" and began to be appalled by just how much of the history I'd been taught was self-serving lies.
At some point in the 1980s my world-travelling friend came back from the Middle East with stories of having watched as massive Israeli bulldozers came rumbling up the road to the West Bank village he was in and pushed over every house for no apparent reason.
All of us were larval engineers at the time, paying much more attention to programming than to politics. But the casual brutality of that ongoing destruction completely scrubbed the last vestiges of Plucky Little Israel from my own worldview.
posted by flabdablet at 8:58 AM on April 23 [20 favorites]
Yair Lapid, who I should stress is the leader of the opposition to Netanyahu and Likud, is openly calling for the Biden administration to send federal "intervention" to the protests.
These assholes know exactly what they're doing.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:37 PM on April 23 [10 favorites]
These assholes know exactly what they're doing.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:37 PM on April 23 [10 favorites]
"About 8:30 p.m. Monday night, the Islamic call to prayer echoed through a speaker across the Diag, the center of campus at the University of Michigan in Ann Arbor. The Arabic words recited by observant Muslims reverberated off the historic academic buildings as Palestinian flags tied to flagpoles fluttered in the wind."
Tents set up in Diag at the University of Michigan...."There was also a small group of counter-protesters waving Israeli flags who said some of the slogans of the pro-Palestinian protesters were antisemitic."
No art of the claim but scroll through the story. Seems police blocked a small caravan and turned them around from possibly protesting on the ambassador bridge something the police are adamant that will not take place as it will disrupt commerce and International traffic.
posted by clavdivs at 12:56 PM on April 23
Tents set up in Diag at the University of Michigan...."There was also a small group of counter-protesters waving Israeli flags who said some of the slogans of the pro-Palestinian protesters were antisemitic."
No art of the claim but scroll through the story. Seems police blocked a small caravan and turned them around from possibly protesting on the ambassador bridge something the police are adamant that will not take place as it will disrupt commerce and International traffic.
posted by clavdivs at 12:56 PM on April 23
Likud, is openly calling for the Biden administration to send federal "intervention" to the protests.
holy smokes you called that one on the tin solders and Nixon's gone and up/ thread.
posted by clavdivs at 12:58 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
holy smokes you called that one on the tin solders and Nixon's gone and up/ thread.
posted by clavdivs at 12:58 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
What I see is a lot of going from "Israel is committing atrocities" (true) to "Israel shouldn't exist" to "I don't care about what happens to Israelis and neither should anyone else".
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:40 PM on April 22
This is a great summary of exactly how the anti-Semitism moves into the protests.
The first statement - Israel is committing atrocities - is patently true. (So did Hamas, of course, though some radical leftists refuse to acknowledge this - there are too many babies dead on both sides). The second statement is an opinion and not an anti-semitic one (though I do wonder why of all the colonial states, it is specifically Israel and not Canada, New Zealand, the United States, Australia,.which should not exist - especially since Israeli's status as a colonial state is much less clear, given the large percentage of Israelis of African and West Asian origin.)
But this last statement - it comes too quickly after the first two. Maybe it's not anti-semitic, maybe they just want Israelis to die and not all Jews. It's still prejudiced and just as genocidal as the most horrific of the Ben-Gvirs on the other side.
posted by jb at 1:00 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
posted by Nancy Lebovitz at 12:40 PM on April 22
This is a great summary of exactly how the anti-Semitism moves into the protests.
The first statement - Israel is committing atrocities - is patently true. (So did Hamas, of course, though some radical leftists refuse to acknowledge this - there are too many babies dead on both sides). The second statement is an opinion and not an anti-semitic one (though I do wonder why of all the colonial states, it is specifically Israel and not Canada, New Zealand, the United States, Australia,.which should not exist - especially since Israeli's status as a colonial state is much less clear, given the large percentage of Israelis of African and West Asian origin.)
But this last statement - it comes too quickly after the first two. Maybe it's not anti-semitic, maybe they just want Israelis to die and not all Jews. It's still prejudiced and just as genocidal as the most horrific of the Ben-Gvirs on the other side.
posted by jb at 1:00 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
Ben Gvir is Israel's Minister of National Security and a person can pull dozens of quotes from that individual, and point to dozens of policy decisions that originate from his office, that have contributed to thousands of deaths in the past 12 months
You've quoted what another MeFite has said, and though I'm not contesting what they feel I am saying: it amounts to an expression of their feelings
So again: I read the title of the post, I look at the many dozens of comments on whether we care enough about the feelings of Israelis and whether we aren't being careful enough about antisemitism, and I wonder what the fuck is going on
posted by elkevelvet at 1:15 PM on April 23 [12 favorites]
You've quoted what another MeFite has said, and though I'm not contesting what they feel I am saying: it amounts to an expression of their feelings
So again: I read the title of the post, I look at the many dozens of comments on whether we care enough about the feelings of Israelis and whether we aren't being careful enough about antisemitism, and I wonder what the fuck is going on
posted by elkevelvet at 1:15 PM on April 23 [12 favorites]
(though I do wonder why of all the colonial states, it is specifically Israel and not Canada, New Zealand, the United States, Australia,.which should not exist - especially since Israeli's status as a colonial state is much less clear, given the large percentage of Israelis of African and West Asian origin.)
Are you saying that Africans or Asians can’t do colonialism?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:23 PM on April 23 [8 favorites]
Are you saying that Africans or Asians can’t do colonialism?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:23 PM on April 23 [8 favorites]
Yeah that's weird, though the rest of the comment is a good question. I assume it's because a lot (but not all) of the colonial stuff is slightly further in the past and a bit more successful, though that presents its own moral hazards. If the way to avoid having your state's existence seriously questioned is to be more thorough in your colonialist actions, well, that present some really bad incentives.
posted by Justinian at 1:27 PM on April 23 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 1:27 PM on April 23 [1 favorite]
I think a comparison of Israel to Canada will run into important differences but it's an entirely fair comparison
One major difference is the sheer scale of deaths in the past year, this is the reason we've had multiple threads and the level of discussion. Tens of thousands have been killed in needless overreach of an oppressive state response to an act of terrorism, within a context of rigid apartheid that has spanned generations
that last part is worth comparing to Canada, for sure. Comparisons with differences
posted by elkevelvet at 1:31 PM on April 23 [1 favorite]
One major difference is the sheer scale of deaths in the past year, this is the reason we've had multiple threads and the level of discussion. Tens of thousands have been killed in needless overreach of an oppressive state response to an act of terrorism, within a context of rigid apartheid that has spanned generations
that last part is worth comparing to Canada, for sure. Comparisons with differences
posted by elkevelvet at 1:31 PM on April 23 [1 favorite]
The first statement - Israel is committing atrocities - is patently true. (So did Hamas, of course, though some radical leftists refuse to acknowledge this - there are too many babies dead on both sides). The second statement is an opinion and not an anti-semitic one (though I do wonder why of all the colonial states, it is specifically Israel and not Canada, New Zealand, the United States, Australia,.which should not exist - especially since Israeli's status as a colonial state is much less clear, given the large percentage of Israelis of African and West Asian origin.)
But this last statement - it comes too quickly after the first two. Maybe it's not anti-semitic, maybe they just want Israelis to die and not all Jews. It's still prejudiced and just as genocidal as the most horrific of the Ben-Gvirs on the other side.
Sorry this "hmmm this one sentence comes after this other sentence" and "hmmmm interesting how no one brings up XYZ" "hmmm some leftists refuse to acknowledge hamas atrocities" "hmmm this isn't antisemtiic BUT ONE MUST WONDER why blah blah fucking blah" mickey mouse bullshit doesn't work anymore it's so boring and tired and cooked no one gives a shit dude there's an ongoing US funded genocide happening.
posted by windbox at 1:33 PM on April 23 [27 favorites]
But this last statement - it comes too quickly after the first two. Maybe it's not anti-semitic, maybe they just want Israelis to die and not all Jews. It's still prejudiced and just as genocidal as the most horrific of the Ben-Gvirs on the other side.
Sorry this "hmmm this one sentence comes after this other sentence" and "hmmmm interesting how no one brings up XYZ" "hmmm some leftists refuse to acknowledge hamas atrocities" "hmmm this isn't antisemtiic BUT ONE MUST WONDER why blah blah fucking blah" mickey mouse bullshit doesn't work anymore it's so boring and tired and cooked no one gives a shit dude there's an ongoing US funded genocide happening.
posted by windbox at 1:33 PM on April 23 [27 favorites]
There is nothing anti-semitic about looking at a government's actions and thinking of that government, "I wouldn't piss on them if they were burning".
This is, for me, encompassing of a great many current governments.
posted by Slackermagee at 1:36 PM on April 23 [7 favorites]
This is, for me, encompassing of a great many current governments.
posted by Slackermagee at 1:36 PM on April 23 [7 favorites]
Israeli's status as a colonial state is much less clear, given the large percentage of Israelis of African and West Asian origin
This is just absurd. Zionism is an explicitly colonial project. Herzl said so, Jabotinsky said so, all the early Zionists said so. The fact that some percentage of Israelis came from somewhere besides Europe to Palestine doesn't mean that Israel isn't a colonial state. The fact that some significant percentage of those people were fleeing persecution in their countries of origin also doesn't make Israel not a colonial state. That argument is kind of like saying that the descendants of English Catholics and French Protestants who settled in North America couldn't be colonists because they were persecuted in Europe, which is patent nonsense.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:10 PM on April 23 [29 favorites]
This is just absurd. Zionism is an explicitly colonial project. Herzl said so, Jabotinsky said so, all the early Zionists said so. The fact that some percentage of Israelis came from somewhere besides Europe to Palestine doesn't mean that Israel isn't a colonial state. The fact that some significant percentage of those people were fleeing persecution in their countries of origin also doesn't make Israel not a colonial state. That argument is kind of like saying that the descendants of English Catholics and French Protestants who settled in North America couldn't be colonists because they were persecuted in Europe, which is patent nonsense.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:10 PM on April 23 [29 favorites]
Are we going to continue these tedious accusations of antisemitism without a single acknowledgment of what Jewish people who are on the ground, and who are part of the protest movements, and what they say about their own experiences? Do they not matter? See below statement from a Jewish student at Columbia:
On Monday, I joined hundreds of my fellow student workers for a walk-out in solidarity with the encampment; we listened respectfully as a similarly sizable group of Columbia faculty held a rally on the library steps. Frankly, it didn’t feel much different from the environment during my union’s most recent strike on campus – I felt inspired again by my colleagues’ commitment to making Columbia a safer and better place to work and study.
Later that night, a Passover Seder service was held at the encampment. Would an antisemitic student movement welcome Jews in this way? I think not.
Here’s what you’re not being told: The most pressing threats to our safety as Jewish students do not come from tents on campus. Instead, they come from the Columbia administration inviting police onto campus, certain faculty members, and third-party organizations that dox undergraduates. Frankly, I regret the fact that writing to confirm the safety of Jewish Ivy League students feels justified in the first place. I have not seen many pundits hand-wringing over the safety of my Palestinian colleagues mourning the deaths of family members, or the destruction of Gaza’s cherished universities.
posted by toastyk at 2:18 PM on April 23 [39 favorites]
On Monday, I joined hundreds of my fellow student workers for a walk-out in solidarity with the encampment; we listened respectfully as a similarly sizable group of Columbia faculty held a rally on the library steps. Frankly, it didn’t feel much different from the environment during my union’s most recent strike on campus – I felt inspired again by my colleagues’ commitment to making Columbia a safer and better place to work and study.
Later that night, a Passover Seder service was held at the encampment. Would an antisemitic student movement welcome Jews in this way? I think not.
Here’s what you’re not being told: The most pressing threats to our safety as Jewish students do not come from tents on campus. Instead, they come from the Columbia administration inviting police onto campus, certain faculty members, and third-party organizations that dox undergraduates. Frankly, I regret the fact that writing to confirm the safety of Jewish Ivy League students feels justified in the first place. I have not seen many pundits hand-wringing over the safety of my Palestinian colleagues mourning the deaths of family members, or the destruction of Gaza’s cherished universities.
posted by toastyk at 2:18 PM on April 23 [39 favorites]
especially since Israeli's status as a colonial state is much less clear, given the large percentage of Israelis of African and West Asian origin.)
I feel like I hear this line constantly from white Zionists who think it's such an impressive conversation ender. Like, There are Israelis of color. So I guess they can't be racist after all. Checkmate.
(Curiously, I have never once heard one of these many Israelis of 'African and West Asian origin' make this argument that their race makes Israel somehow magically incapable of colonialism and immune to racism--if you have come across a perspective from an Israeli of African or West Asian origin who believes this, I'd love to read it, as this may simply be my own ignorance.)
It's amusing to watch because it's an understanding of race that is so lacking in nuance and clearly coming from people who have not spent much time in POC spaces or had many conversations about race, except on the most simplistic level. Race and being a racialized person is not a "get out of jail free" card, even though a lot of white people seem to believe it is. There are Black cops! Lots of them! Colin Powell and Condolezza Rice were critical to the invasion of Iraq. Every European colonial regime relied on natives to enforce their policies. Anti-Blackness is rampant in Asian communities.
Not to mention so many Asian countries have long and very well-documented histories of violent colonialism far older than European colonialism. Don't objectify us and turn us into powerless victims in your imagination.
Literally, either read a book or avoid making such bizarre declarative statements about things you clearly know very little about.
posted by lizard2590 at 2:59 PM on April 23 [16 favorites]
I feel like I hear this line constantly from white Zionists who think it's such an impressive conversation ender. Like, There are Israelis of color. So I guess they can't be racist after all. Checkmate.
(Curiously, I have never once heard one of these many Israelis of 'African and West Asian origin' make this argument that their race makes Israel somehow magically incapable of colonialism and immune to racism--if you have come across a perspective from an Israeli of African or West Asian origin who believes this, I'd love to read it, as this may simply be my own ignorance.)
It's amusing to watch because it's an understanding of race that is so lacking in nuance and clearly coming from people who have not spent much time in POC spaces or had many conversations about race, except on the most simplistic level. Race and being a racialized person is not a "get out of jail free" card, even though a lot of white people seem to believe it is. There are Black cops! Lots of them! Colin Powell and Condolezza Rice were critical to the invasion of Iraq. Every European colonial regime relied on natives to enforce their policies. Anti-Blackness is rampant in Asian communities.
Not to mention so many Asian countries have long and very well-documented histories of violent colonialism far older than European colonialism. Don't objectify us and turn us into powerless victims in your imagination.
Literally, either read a book or avoid making such bizarre declarative statements about things you clearly know very little about.
posted by lizard2590 at 2:59 PM on April 23 [16 favorites]
I do wonder why of all the colonial states, it is specifically Israel and not Canada, New Zealand, the United States, Australia,.which should not exist
Tell me you've never met a leftist without telling me you've never met a leftist.
But in seriousness, this is like the men's rights advocates who post on Mother's Day being like "Why is no one talking about the FATHERS today, you fucking SEXISTS?" No, man, like, we talk about fathers on father's day. Mother's day is for mothers. "Why aren't you talking about the colonialism of AMERICA?" Because it's not Thanksgiving, or Columbus Day, or July 4, or any of the days that I promise you we will go on ad fucking nauseum about the colonialism of America and its murder of indigenous people and why we think it may not deserve to exist in its current form.
Right now is for the genocide actively going on. It's marked in the fucking article and it's marked in the thread. If you want to make a thread about the colonialism of America I promise you I'll fucking participate with bells on. But that's not what this thread is about.
Unless you're only bringing up America's colonialism as a gotcha to take the heat off Israel, in which case, shame on you.
posted by corb at 3:06 PM on April 23 [37 favorites]
Tell me you've never met a leftist without telling me you've never met a leftist.
But in seriousness, this is like the men's rights advocates who post on Mother's Day being like "Why is no one talking about the FATHERS today, you fucking SEXISTS?" No, man, like, we talk about fathers on father's day. Mother's day is for mothers. "Why aren't you talking about the colonialism of AMERICA?" Because it's not Thanksgiving, or Columbus Day, or July 4, or any of the days that I promise you we will go on ad fucking nauseum about the colonialism of America and its murder of indigenous people and why we think it may not deserve to exist in its current form.
Right now is for the genocide actively going on. It's marked in the fucking article and it's marked in the thread. If you want to make a thread about the colonialism of America I promise you I'll fucking participate with bells on. But that's not what this thread is about.
Unless you're only bringing up America's colonialism as a gotcha to take the heat off Israel, in which case, shame on you.
posted by corb at 3:06 PM on April 23 [37 favorites]
I mean, the whole "there are Israelis of Arab origin so Israelis are physically incapable of being colonialist" is truly a wonderful little gem of an argument, the more you unpeel it. I'm an American of Asian origin. Guess America can't be a colonial state either!
posted by lizard2590 at 3:06 PM on April 23 [8 favorites]
posted by lizard2590 at 3:06 PM on April 23 [8 favorites]
"some of my best friends are Black"
Racism in Israel
posted by elkevelvet at 3:09 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
Racism in Israel
posted by elkevelvet at 3:09 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
"They want, at best, to ethnically cleanse Israelis from Israel".... um, I think what they want is a ceasefire and for the IDF to stop shooting children in the head? But you know, you do you.
posted by WatTylerJr at 3:21 PM on April 23 [13 favorites]
posted by WatTylerJr at 3:21 PM on April 23 [13 favorites]
“ they're protesting for Columbia to financially divest from companies that support the Israeli military”
Like Microsoft, which they are no doubt writing their IB and PE internships cover letters on.
Insulting everyone not on the pro-genocide train certainly has changed my mind! Lets kill all the kids!
posted by WatTylerJr at 3:24 PM on April 23 [4 favorites]
Like Microsoft, which they are no doubt writing their IB and PE internships cover letters on.
Insulting everyone not on the pro-genocide train certainly has changed my mind! Lets kill all the kids!
posted by WatTylerJr at 3:24 PM on April 23 [4 favorites]
but it's an entirely fair comparison.
interesting. comparative analysis of any two countries geopolitical past and even present is an aggregate for the context of conversation.
Comparisons with differences
essentially a contrast. for example you can compare Canada and the United States genocide towards the native people but there's contrast in the methodology. I can see this being part of the conversation in the context of part of the protests are divestment from American interests contributing to the genocide.
The Narrative shift in Media, and bureaucratic leadership towards concern of anti-semitism in various ways redirects the reason for the protests themselves. The increased crackdown, imo is not from counter protesters with Israeli flags but other counter protesters waving American flags, it's the flashpoint griengof alluded too.
posted by clavdivs at 3:29 PM on April 23
interesting. comparative analysis of any two countries geopolitical past and even present is an aggregate for the context of conversation.
Comparisons with differences
essentially a contrast. for example you can compare Canada and the United States genocide towards the native people but there's contrast in the methodology. I can see this being part of the conversation in the context of part of the protests are divestment from American interests contributing to the genocide.
The Narrative shift in Media, and bureaucratic leadership towards concern of anti-semitism in various ways redirects the reason for the protests themselves. The increased crackdown, imo is not from counter protesters with Israeli flags but other counter protesters waving American flags, it's the flashpoint griengof alluded too.
posted by clavdivs at 3:29 PM on April 23
More news from what's actually happening at the Columbia encampment: Motaz Azaiza, the incredibly brave 25-year old photojournalist who was documenting atrocities in Gaza before he was evacuated, came to the encampment (along with Edward Said's daughter!) today. This is an Instagram link with video--I couldn't find any news reporting on it yet.
posted by lizard2590 at 3:44 PM on April 23 [13 favorites]
posted by lizard2590 at 3:44 PM on April 23 [13 favorites]
Literally, either read a book--
Or follow the current Palestine threads. Even if one's own mental peace is so precious, dip into it every once in a while - or else we can keep making fresh per-interesting articles threads that just bother people so much to persist making old arguments.
One of my latest shares had an article about the Mizrahim and their current rightward shift (that's absolutely attributed to leftist Ashkenazim racism), but it also taught me about the Israeli Black Panthers so that was cool. These aren't the first time non-Ashkenazim Israelis and their writings were shared too. It's such a disgrace to see them being trotted out as a shield. Pfft, like that Indonesia's occupation of West Papua must be a diversity win. Modi's institutionalizing Islamophobia in India is simply decolonisation (an actual argument I've seen in Indian discursive spaces).
I see the function of having these thematic FPPs now. Containment.
posted by cendawanita at 4:42 PM on April 23 [9 favorites]
Or follow the current Palestine threads. Even if one's own mental peace is so precious, dip into it every once in a while - or else we can keep making fresh per-interesting articles threads that just bother people so much to persist making old arguments.
One of my latest shares had an article about the Mizrahim and their current rightward shift (that's absolutely attributed to leftist Ashkenazim racism), but it also taught me about the Israeli Black Panthers so that was cool. These aren't the first time non-Ashkenazim Israelis and their writings were shared too. It's such a disgrace to see them being trotted out as a shield. Pfft, like that Indonesia's occupation of West Papua must be a diversity win. Modi's institutionalizing Islamophobia in India is simply decolonisation (an actual argument I've seen in Indian discursive spaces).
I see the function of having these thematic FPPs now. Containment.
posted by cendawanita at 4:42 PM on April 23 [9 favorites]
I just read on instagram that Robert Kraft (assshit who owns the patriots) pulled like a billion dollars from Columbia and now classes are online?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:25 PM on April 23 [3 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 5:25 PM on April 23 [3 favorites]
Classes are online that's true.
posted by CPAnarchist at 6:38 PM on April 23 [1 favorite]
posted by CPAnarchist at 6:38 PM on April 23 [1 favorite]
It looks like he's threatening to pull his donations; he's donated millions, not a billion, though.
I do think that there are some uncomfortable things happening in the intersection of Jewish Zionist donors and universities around this issue, though, that are having a counterproductive effect if stopping antisemitism is the desired outcome, but it's not coming from the pro-Palestinian protesters. Because due to the unwillingness to separate Zionism and Jewishness in the reporting around this issue, instead of accurately reporting that Zionist donors are threatening to shut down funding to universities if they don't brutalize students who disagree with them politically, media is reporting that Jewish donors are threatening the universities.
And so to people who aren't politically educated on this, I think there is likely to be created a ripe ground for antisemitism on campuses - but it's being created by the threats by donors, the university yielding to those threats, and the media reportage on those threats, rather than by anything the protesters are doing.
posted by corb at 7:04 PM on April 23 [12 favorites]
I do think that there are some uncomfortable things happening in the intersection of Jewish Zionist donors and universities around this issue, though, that are having a counterproductive effect if stopping antisemitism is the desired outcome, but it's not coming from the pro-Palestinian protesters. Because due to the unwillingness to separate Zionism and Jewishness in the reporting around this issue, instead of accurately reporting that Zionist donors are threatening to shut down funding to universities if they don't brutalize students who disagree with them politically, media is reporting that Jewish donors are threatening the universities.
And so to people who aren't politically educated on this, I think there is likely to be created a ripe ground for antisemitism on campuses - but it's being created by the threats by donors, the university yielding to those threats, and the media reportage on those threats, rather than by anything the protesters are doing.
posted by corb at 7:04 PM on April 23 [12 favorites]
Not to mention so many Asian countries have long and very well-documented histories of violent colonialism far older than European colonialism
here's the thing European colonialism, some consider, began with fiasco da Gama.
what was before that Columbus, the crusaders they only reached Aleppo and be back for a few years that's not really colonialism it's a war of religion. so we're back to Calicut probably the most diverse trade culture in the world. the glorious syncretism. mosques built like new temples mosque with Greek columns and arches roadside temples and chapels difficultural narrative threat emerges hindus, arabs, persian, turks, and historians, alexandrian's, abyssinians, venetians, a few chinese, a few Japanese they all King and made Calicut and the Malabar coast that very soon by 1503 the gamma came in guns blazing and that's pretty much it. I'm sure the comparison analysis from 1503 to today of Western colonialism is hardly a comparison to the rest of the world before that time in a sense it's using the past to justify the present ones argument.
I'm not going to edit that.
"I see the function of having these thematic FPPs now. Containment."
should be framed
posted by clavdivs at 7:38 PM on April 23 [1 favorite]
here's the thing European colonialism, some consider, began with fiasco da Gama.
what was before that Columbus, the crusaders they only reached Aleppo and be back for a few years that's not really colonialism it's a war of religion. so we're back to Calicut probably the most diverse trade culture in the world. the glorious syncretism. mosques built like new temples mosque with Greek columns and arches roadside temples and chapels difficultural narrative threat emerges hindus, arabs, persian, turks, and historians, alexandrian's, abyssinians, venetians, a few chinese, a few Japanese they all King and made Calicut and the Malabar coast that very soon by 1503 the gamma came in guns blazing and that's pretty much it. I'm sure the comparison analysis from 1503 to today of Western colonialism is hardly a comparison to the rest of the world before that time in a sense it's using the past to justify the present ones argument.
I'm not going to edit that.
"I see the function of having these thematic FPPs now. Containment."
should be framed
posted by clavdivs at 7:38 PM on April 23 [1 favorite]
Classes are online that's true
pro-Palestinian activism is a longterm plot for a Covid-conscious social life, who knew.
posted by cendawanita at 8:00 PM on April 23 [9 favorites]
pro-Palestinian activism is a longterm plot for a Covid-conscious social life, who knew.
posted by cendawanita at 8:00 PM on April 23 [9 favorites]
Posted an hour ago, Nathan Tankus: (with screenshot of letter) NEW: about 20 minutes ago the president of Columbia says negotiations over ending the encampments have a deadline of midnight and is signaling that it will be violently cleared past that point.
Prem Thakker (30 mins ago): Sources say Columbia University has threatened to authorize the NYPD and National Guard to sweep the protest encampment as soon as tonight
posted by cendawanita at 8:04 PM on April 23 [5 favorites]
Prem Thakker (30 mins ago): Sources say Columbia University has threatened to authorize the NYPD and National Guard to sweep the protest encampment as soon as tonight
posted by cendawanita at 8:04 PM on April 23 [5 favorites]
The Powers That Be really getting erect at the thought of another Kent State.
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:13 PM on April 23 [10 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 8:13 PM on April 23 [10 favorites]
A thread from Israeli journalist/analyst, Mairav Zonsvein: A lot of what is happening on college campuses, to me, is a direct culmination of a generation worth's effort to conflate antisemitism and criticism of Israel, an extension of the Zionist effort a generation before that to equate Judaism and Israeli nationalism. /1
Much like Zionism and the creation of Israel had a tectonic impact on world Jewry, the moment we are in is going to huge consequences for Jewish people everywhere. /2
One of those consequences is not being able to identify when Jews are genuinely unsafe, not being able to combat antisemitism, and continuously pitting Jews against the world. /
posted by cendawanita at 8:20 PM on April 23 [8 favorites]
Much like Zionism and the creation of Israel had a tectonic impact on world Jewry, the moment we are in is going to huge consequences for Jewish people everywhere. /2
One of those consequences is not being able to identify when Jews are genuinely unsafe, not being able to combat antisemitism, and continuously pitting Jews against the world. /
posted by cendawanita at 8:20 PM on April 23 [8 favorites]
Sources say Columbia University has threatened to authorize the NYPD and National Guard to sweep the protest encampment as soon as tonight
"In every American community, you have varying shades of political opinion. One of the shadiest of these is the liberals. An outspoken group on many subjects. Ten degrees to the left of center in good times, ten degrees to the right of center if it affects them personally."
...
Ah, but I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me
Love me, I'm a liberal
posted by corb at 8:54 PM on April 23 [10 favorites]
"In every American community, you have varying shades of political opinion. One of the shadiest of these is the liberals. An outspoken group on many subjects. Ten degrees to the left of center in good times, ten degrees to the right of center if it affects them personally."
...
Ah, but I've grown older and wiser
And that's why I'm turning you in
So love me, love me
Love me, I'm a liberal
posted by corb at 8:54 PM on April 23 [10 favorites]
If you want to listen right now, WKCR (Columbia's student radio) is giving live updates on how students are organizing and preparing for arrests.
posted by many more sunsets at 8:56 PM on April 23 [5 favorites]
posted by many more sunsets at 8:56 PM on April 23 [5 favorites]
Per that radio, the deadline has been extended to 8AM, and also reporters, including NYT reporters, are being denied access to campus, although CBS news has managed to get a helicopter up over the site. Thankfully, unlike Israel, Columbia doesn't have rocket-propelled grenade launchers to keep the press out.
posted by corb at 9:15 PM on April 23 [8 favorites]
posted by corb at 9:15 PM on April 23 [8 favorites]
Keeping the press out very much seems like a move in solidarity with Israel, yes.
The establishment very much wants these kids Kent Stated and to be able to feel good about it.
Referring to anything as “the establishment” feels shockingly antiquated, like some 60s protest thing, but boy do politicians, media university legacy billionaires et al all feel unified on fucking hating these kids to a deranged degree.
posted by Artw at 10:14 PM on April 23 [11 favorites]
The establishment very much wants these kids Kent Stated and to be able to feel good about it.
Referring to anything as “the establishment” feels shockingly antiquated, like some 60s protest thing, but boy do politicians, media university legacy billionaires et al all feel unified on fucking hating these kids to a deranged degree.
posted by Artw at 10:14 PM on April 23 [11 favorites]
I noted that many Israelis are West Asian and African to point out that they are from that region (I was going to specify North African, but didn't want to exclude Ethiopian Israelis). They are just as "indigenous" as Palestinians - and ended up in that specific part of West Asia because of the ethnic cleansing that took place before as well as after the founding of Israel.
I know that the European Zionists conceived of their project as a part of colonialism - that's why I was talking about it being an unclear status.
But it's a complex issue that no one here wishes to discuss in good faith - Like the nonsense of claiming that "from the river to the sea" isn't calling for genocide/ethnic cleansing. It was when the Zionists said it, and it still is regardless of who says it. No one should be justifying it.
posted by jb at 10:54 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
I know that the European Zionists conceived of their project as a part of colonialism - that's why I was talking about it being an unclear status.
But it's a complex issue that no one here wishes to discuss in good faith - Like the nonsense of claiming that "from the river to the sea" isn't calling for genocide/ethnic cleansing. It was when the Zionists said it, and it still is regardless of who says it. No one should be justifying it.
posted by jb at 10:54 PM on April 23 [2 favorites]
"They want, at best, to ethnically cleanse Israelis from Israel".... um, I think what they want is a ceasefire and for the IDF to stop shooting children in the head? But you know, you do you.
I went to a protest to stand against the excessive brutality and to call for a ceasefire.
I left when the genocidal chants started. Me doing me is not protesting genocide by calling for genocide of the other side. I don't give a fuck how brutal the government is, killing babies and elderly peace activists isn't justifiable - whether it is Hamas or the IDF.
As for the "have you met a leftist" - I just had a nice Seder with several leftists. They were also Jews. We leftist Jews have been abandoned by the rest of the Left because we happen to think that both Israelis and Palestinians deserve to live in peace, security and freedom. We know that Israel is fucked up, we know that the West Bank settlers are violent thugs; we also know Israelis who have lived with violence against them.
That's the thing about being a leftist, pluralistic Jew: I know Palestinians and Israelis, I have listened to all of their experiences - and I respect them. They have their lived experiences.
What I come away thinking is that too many damn people are dead and if I could drain the Jordan just to stop anyone ever saying "from the river to the sea" again, I would, environmental devastation be damned.
Because if you say this, you are part of the problem.
posted by jb at 11:09 PM on April 23 [14 favorites]
I went to a protest to stand against the excessive brutality and to call for a ceasefire.
I left when the genocidal chants started. Me doing me is not protesting genocide by calling for genocide of the other side. I don't give a fuck how brutal the government is, killing babies and elderly peace activists isn't justifiable - whether it is Hamas or the IDF.
As for the "have you met a leftist" - I just had a nice Seder with several leftists. They were also Jews. We leftist Jews have been abandoned by the rest of the Left because we happen to think that both Israelis and Palestinians deserve to live in peace, security and freedom. We know that Israel is fucked up, we know that the West Bank settlers are violent thugs; we also know Israelis who have lived with violence against them.
That's the thing about being a leftist, pluralistic Jew: I know Palestinians and Israelis, I have listened to all of their experiences - and I respect them. They have their lived experiences.
What I come away thinking is that too many damn people are dead and if I could drain the Jordan just to stop anyone ever saying "from the river to the sea" again, I would, environmental devastation be damned.
Because if you say this, you are part of the problem.
posted by jb at 11:09 PM on April 23 [14 favorites]
I contest the notion that the phrase is being used to indicate ethnic cleansing or genocidal intent. I will say that it is existentially alarming because right now the working political definition for it is coalescing around the idea of a one unified state with equal rights for all. This I do see as an existential crisis, as much as it was for the US before native american sovereignty as at least translated via the various treaties was actually legally put in practice. The question isn't good or bad faith for me - the matter is that there is a distinct lack of sympathy in current discourse for the Zionist position and even the two-state position. Bad faith renders dishonest arguments, but it's actually a situation where the argument is presented with a high degree of political accuracy and factual objectivity, but there's just no sympathy left for the position.
but I will also say I have observed hardline positions - they do exist; they're as merciless against people like MoTaz or Rashid Khalidi for example. But their existence doesn't negate the larger struggle - and maybe this is also where speaking to other racialised people would help, rather than persisting to find community with the majoritarian western thinking. Do you know there's a fresh round of salty discussions about how highly privileged Indian students are coopting Kashmiri chants of freedom on uni grounds, but even so there's just as much support for mainstreaming the use even as there's a side eye to be thrown that Hindu Brahmin kids can have the political space to use it.? What would be the conclusion? To leave the space? To practice ideological white flight? Racialized people have to work with so much discomfort and it's pure fiction to imagine "we" are in perfect amity and comity with each other.
And just like the larger problem of racism, where it's not just a matter of expressed prejudice but institutionalised and systemic prejudice, genocide is a function of racism, so both-sidesing it and elevating an oppressed community to a locus of power is so cockeyed, BUT I am very familiar with this coming from a postcolonial society where most of the majoritarian groups can cite chapter and verse of their respective oppressions and colonialism's impact on their community and conveniently always use it as citation to prevent solidarity.
posted by cendawanita at 11:19 PM on April 23 [17 favorites]
but I will also say I have observed hardline positions - they do exist; they're as merciless against people like MoTaz or Rashid Khalidi for example. But their existence doesn't negate the larger struggle - and maybe this is also where speaking to other racialised people would help, rather than persisting to find community with the majoritarian western thinking. Do you know there's a fresh round of salty discussions about how highly privileged Indian students are coopting Kashmiri chants of freedom on uni grounds, but even so there's just as much support for mainstreaming the use even as there's a side eye to be thrown that Hindu Brahmin kids can have the political space to use it.? What would be the conclusion? To leave the space? To practice ideological white flight? Racialized people have to work with so much discomfort and it's pure fiction to imagine "we" are in perfect amity and comity with each other.
And just like the larger problem of racism, where it's not just a matter of expressed prejudice but institutionalised and systemic prejudice, genocide is a function of racism, so both-sidesing it and elevating an oppressed community to a locus of power is so cockeyed, BUT I am very familiar with this coming from a postcolonial society where most of the majoritarian groups can cite chapter and verse of their respective oppressions and colonialism's impact on their community and conveniently always use it as citation to prevent solidarity.
posted by cendawanita at 11:19 PM on April 23 [17 favorites]
Pro-Palestine activists have been saying "from the river to the sea" as a primary slogan for what, over a decade now? It might have been big before that, I just wasn't around. As we've been over, states are not people, states don't have rights. Anyone who's just getting worked up over it in the last six months is either far too under-informed to participate in the conversation or, more commonly, outright lying.
It doesn't matter if it generates fear in some people's minds, because that fear is driven by their poisoned media diet. Fear and risk are not the same thing. I don't have any more respect for someone who claims that claims that "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" causes them genuine fear than I do for someone who thinks that every city is a hotbed of gang crime you can't traverse without an assault rifle.
Same reason there's people going around saying that a Jewish person was "stabbed", in at least one case I saw it claimed "murdered" and its come out that they bumped into a flag in a crowded protest. Living in bubbles of toxic, right-wing fear. There's a reason so many Zionists have been pulling out all the stops on homophobia and misogyny, they know who they're standing with.
posted by Audreynachrome at 11:44 PM on April 23 [18 favorites]
It doesn't matter if it generates fear in some people's minds, because that fear is driven by their poisoned media diet. Fear and risk are not the same thing. I don't have any more respect for someone who claims that claims that "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" causes them genuine fear than I do for someone who thinks that every city is a hotbed of gang crime you can't traverse without an assault rifle.
Same reason there's people going around saying that a Jewish person was "stabbed", in at least one case I saw it claimed "murdered" and its come out that they bumped into a flag in a crowded protest. Living in bubbles of toxic, right-wing fear. There's a reason so many Zionists have been pulling out all the stops on homophobia and misogyny, they know who they're standing with.
posted by Audreynachrome at 11:44 PM on April 23 [18 favorites]
Dr Steven Thrasher: (commenting on the announcement that Uni of Minnesota is shutting off water supply and toilet access) NYU building a barrier wall.
UMM turning off the water.
Techniques used in colonies always come home to the metropole, don’t they?
posted by cendawanita at 11:50 PM on April 23 [12 favorites]
UMM turning off the water.
Techniques used in colonies always come home to the metropole, don’t they?
posted by cendawanita at 11:50 PM on April 23 [12 favorites]
Like the only thing to do is just treat anyone who buys into the "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is just to treat them with utter disdain. Disavow them socially. Make sure all your friends know that they're far more worried about the possibility of one democratic state than they are about starving, dying children. Make sure your friends know that inviting them to things will be making yourself responsible on some level if they end up offending other, presumably more reasonable, humane guests. If none of that is possible - get new friends. If they're suspect on Palestine, susceptible to right-wing nonsense, they'll wiggle on your rights too when it comes to that.
Treat it like you would someone opening up about how "men do all the hard jobs" or "aren't these gays just a little in-your-face". It's been a very long time now that Palestine has been a pillar of left-wing politics, long enough for them to have educated themselves if they wanted to. Unless they're a child, you don't have to hold their hands and tolerate this sort of wishy-washy entry-level pro-ethnic cleansing rhetoric in the same way you don't have to tolerate entry-level misogyny shit.
posted by Audreynachrome at 11:54 PM on April 23 [14 favorites]
Treat it like you would someone opening up about how "men do all the hard jobs" or "aren't these gays just a little in-your-face". It's been a very long time now that Palestine has been a pillar of left-wing politics, long enough for them to have educated themselves if they wanted to. Unless they're a child, you don't have to hold their hands and tolerate this sort of wishy-washy entry-level pro-ethnic cleansing rhetoric in the same way you don't have to tolerate entry-level misogyny shit.
posted by Audreynachrome at 11:54 PM on April 23 [14 favorites]
who buys into "the "from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free" is genocidal speech" line...*
Is probably an important correction.
posted by Audreynachrome at 12:03 AM on April 24 [13 favorites]
Is probably an important correction.
posted by Audreynachrome at 12:03 AM on April 24 [13 favorites]
Thanks for the correction. I was genuinely struggling to parse that.
posted by Zumbador at 12:10 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
posted by Zumbador at 12:10 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
The other thing I would like to address is the elision of native status and being indigenous. Let's start with an example: would you call Xi Jinping China's indigenous president? How about Modi? But they're native to their respective locations right?
This confusion exists especially in western spaces because an indigenous person is seen as a minority class with no political power who is also able to demonstrate a long native heritage to the land. But indigineity is a contingent status that is a politically defined to being colonized and therefore unable to fully practice their culture to govern themselves. I am telling you now, in the global south you are more likely to find people reacting to the idea that Israelis are indigenous with incredulity and not because they're always antisemites who deny that there's a historical connection to the land, but because they're also natives who see the vapid conclusion to the argument, living inside native politics where there's elite capture and assorted fun colonial things.
I close by calling back to Indonesia. Are you saying because they're native to the region, they're also as indigenous IN WEST PAPUA as the Papuans they're occupying? This is why I note how non-Ashkenazi Israelis are used as shields because guess what, that's old rhetoric in these parts.
Always always always only talking to white culture.
posted by cendawanita at 12:40 AM on April 24 [20 favorites]
This confusion exists especially in western spaces because an indigenous person is seen as a minority class with no political power who is also able to demonstrate a long native heritage to the land. But indigineity is a contingent status that is a politically defined to being colonized and therefore unable to fully practice their culture to govern themselves. I am telling you now, in the global south you are more likely to find people reacting to the idea that Israelis are indigenous with incredulity and not because they're always antisemites who deny that there's a historical connection to the land, but because they're also natives who see the vapid conclusion to the argument, living inside native politics where there's elite capture and assorted fun colonial things.
I close by calling back to Indonesia. Are you saying because they're native to the region, they're also as indigenous IN WEST PAPUA as the Papuans they're occupying? This is why I note how non-Ashkenazi Israelis are used as shields because guess what, that's old rhetoric in these parts.
Always always always only talking to white culture.
posted by cendawanita at 12:40 AM on April 24 [20 favorites]
At this rate China's actions in Xinjiang can't be framed in a colonial way since it's also conducted by Central and East Asian peoples. Saying so would be racist.
posted by cendawanita at 12:47 AM on April 24 [9 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 12:47 AM on April 24 [9 favorites]
Malay Singaporeans are indigenous. But if my dumb ass goes around saying that Malay Malaysians are indigenous, the Orang Asli and Borneans will form a queue to hit me with their sandals, and no one will stop them. That's how contingent and conditional that political identity is. I *am* sorry the political identity for indigenous people in western countries are solidifying into sociocultural ones but that is not a reason at all for pro-Israel positions to start randomly cosplaying being indigenous.
posted by cendawanita at 1:19 AM on April 24 [11 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 1:19 AM on April 24 [11 favorites]
As for the "have you met a leftist" - I just had a nice Seder with several leftists. They were also Jews. We leftist Jews have been abandoned by the rest of the Left because we happen to think that both Israelis and Palestinians deserve to live in peace, security and freedom.
Okay, I am going to say this in the nicest possible way I know how, but if you believe in colonialist states doing an imperialism, you are not a leftist. You might be a liberal, but you're not a leftist. Being to the left of the United States center does not make you a leftist; it has a fairly specific definition.
It is not that "leftist Jews have been abandoned by the rest of the Left", it's that the state of Israel made a choice in the 1960s to align itself in opposition to global anti-colonial movements and *with* colonial states in exchange for security. And since 1967, and the election of Menachem Begin shortly afterwards, Israel has taken a massive rightward shift for the last half-century. To support Israel is to support a right-wing state currently doing a genocide.
And there are a lot of leftist Jews out in the streets right now. There are leftist Jews in the encampments. There are leftist Jews in the green hats of the National Lawyers Guild. There are leftist Jews getting arrested and thrown out of their universities for showing solidarity with Palestinians. They haven't been left behind. We welcome them. Leftist Jews are welcome - Zionists who support right-wing states that exist through the oppression of others are not.
posted by corb at 2:49 AM on April 24 [24 favorites]
Okay, I am going to say this in the nicest possible way I know how, but if you believe in colonialist states doing an imperialism, you are not a leftist. You might be a liberal, but you're not a leftist. Being to the left of the United States center does not make you a leftist; it has a fairly specific definition.
It is not that "leftist Jews have been abandoned by the rest of the Left", it's that the state of Israel made a choice in the 1960s to align itself in opposition to global anti-colonial movements and *with* colonial states in exchange for security. And since 1967, and the election of Menachem Begin shortly afterwards, Israel has taken a massive rightward shift for the last half-century. To support Israel is to support a right-wing state currently doing a genocide.
And there are a lot of leftist Jews out in the streets right now. There are leftist Jews in the encampments. There are leftist Jews in the green hats of the National Lawyers Guild. There are leftist Jews getting arrested and thrown out of their universities for showing solidarity with Palestinians. They haven't been left behind. We welcome them. Leftist Jews are welcome - Zionists who support right-wing states that exist through the oppression of others are not.
posted by corb at 2:49 AM on April 24 [24 favorites]
The constant erasure of the huge, committed presence of Jews at these protests isn't by accident, nor will it end well now that it looks like at least one deep-blue state has already decided a new Kent State is a desirable outcome.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:16 AM on April 24 [16 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:16 AM on April 24 [16 favorites]
Meanwhile, the NYT editorial page decides that not being able to listen to 4 minutes and 33 seconds of silence deserves a murderous crackdown.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:20 AM on April 24 [10 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:20 AM on April 24 [10 favorites]
in some ways, history is repeating itself
posted by pyramid termite at 4:10 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
posted by pyramid termite at 4:10 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
Pro-Palestine activists have been saying "from the river to the sea" as a primary slogan for what, over a decade now?
Just mentioning again that "from the river to the sea" is also clearly stated in the first paragraph of Likud's 1977 founding charter:
a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
I gather we're all to now assume that's a call for Palestinian genocide? I mean, if it's a call to genocide when Palestinians say it, then it's also call to genocide when Likud officially announces it, right?
posted by mediareport at 4:55 AM on April 24 [15 favorites]
Just mentioning again that "from the river to the sea" is also clearly stated in the first paragraph of Likud's 1977 founding charter:
a. The right of the Jewish people to the land of Israel is eternal and indisputable and is linked with the right to security and peace; therefore, Judea and Samaria will not be handed to any foreign administration; between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.
I gather we're all to now assume that's a call for Palestinian genocide? I mean, if it's a call to genocide when Palestinians say it, then it's also call to genocide when Likud officially announces it, right?
posted by mediareport at 4:55 AM on April 24 [15 favorites]
Mod note: Comment removed. Telling another community go member to "toughen the fuck up" goes against the Guidelines
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:17 AM on April 24
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 5:17 AM on April 24
They are just as "indigenous" as Palestinians
That is not how that works. Some of my French Huguenot ancestors were victims of persecution that basically amounts to ethnic cleansing; after Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes in 1685, Huguenot men who couldn't flee were executed by breaking on the wheel or sold into galley slavery, women were sent to prisons, and children to convents. It is the Huguenots who gave the English language the word "refugee". Doesn't give me the right to go back to France, after over 300 years, and claim to be "indigenous". The co-option of the language of indigineity by Zionists in the service of justifying a genocidal settler-colonial state is something no-one should take seriously.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:38 AM on April 24 [9 favorites]
That is not how that works. Some of my French Huguenot ancestors were victims of persecution that basically amounts to ethnic cleansing; after Louis XIV revoked the Edict of Nantes in 1685, Huguenot men who couldn't flee were executed by breaking on the wheel or sold into galley slavery, women were sent to prisons, and children to convents. It is the Huguenots who gave the English language the word "refugee". Doesn't give me the right to go back to France, after over 300 years, and claim to be "indigenous". The co-option of the language of indigineity by Zionists in the service of justifying a genocidal settler-colonial state is something no-one should take seriously.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:38 AM on April 24 [9 favorites]
Oof. That NYT editorial and its complete lack of self-awareness or critical reflection in asserting specific allowed and disallowed sounds for “surrounding noise” for a performance of 4:33.
posted by eviemath at 6:37 AM on April 24 [7 favorites]
posted by eviemath at 6:37 AM on April 24 [7 favorites]
Okay, I am going to say this in the nicest possible way I know how, but if you believe in colonialist states doing an imperialism, you are not a leftist. You might be a liberal, but you're not a leftist. Being to the left of the United States center does not make you a leftist; it has a fairly specific definition.
I have been opposed to the Israeli settlements for years. As someone in the Jewish community, I am constantly needing to engage with these issues. I have supported organizations seeking peace, I know people who actively work with Israelis and Palestinians on peace.
How does, hey, let's not call for the extermination of anyone, turn into I wish to support a government committing an ethnic cleansing?
If being against ethnic cleansing this makes me not a leftist, then I am proud to be not a leftist.
As for why I am not at protests - well, aside from the constant anti-Semitism that I encountered there - I have a job and a toddler, and I barely have time to read threads, let alone write endless paragraphs. b
But thanks for making Metafilter, even less welcoming.
posted by jb at 6:40 AM on April 24 [7 favorites]
I have been opposed to the Israeli settlements for years. As someone in the Jewish community, I am constantly needing to engage with these issues. I have supported organizations seeking peace, I know people who actively work with Israelis and Palestinians on peace.
How does, hey, let's not call for the extermination of anyone, turn into I wish to support a government committing an ethnic cleansing?
If being against ethnic cleansing this makes me not a leftist, then I am proud to be not a leftist.
As for why I am not at protests - well, aside from the constant anti-Semitism that I encountered there - I have a job and a toddler, and I barely have time to read threads, let alone write endless paragraphs. b
But thanks for making Metafilter, even less welcoming.
posted by jb at 6:40 AM on April 24 [7 favorites]
I'm sorry, but your failure to address any criticism of how you're reading "From the river to the sea..." is not making you more credible.
If I say Canada is stolen land, do you get equally worked up? If I say that from Atlantic to Pacific, the First Nations of Turtle Island should be free?
If your main concern, over half a year into a program of ethnic cleansing, is that a slogan can be interpreted poorly? Maybe you're not coming across as leftist as you think! Maybe accusing people of supporting ethnic cleansing (via milquetoast slogans) is not very welcoming either!
posted by sagc at 6:52 AM on April 24 [17 favorites]
If I say Canada is stolen land, do you get equally worked up? If I say that from Atlantic to Pacific, the First Nations of Turtle Island should be free?
If your main concern, over half a year into a program of ethnic cleansing, is that a slogan can be interpreted poorly? Maybe you're not coming across as leftist as you think! Maybe accusing people of supporting ethnic cleansing (via milquetoast slogans) is not very welcoming either!
posted by sagc at 6:52 AM on April 24 [17 favorites]
Meanwhile a perspective from NYU Palestinian-American adjunct professor who grew up in Israel and is also a human rights lawyer:
KABAS: How does having grown up in Israel shape your perspective on the American protests?
DAKWAR: My experience growing up in Israel was of a country that denies equal citizenship to non-Jewish citizens, especially Palestinians who are treated as undesirable guests in their own homeland. Growing up as a second-class citizen in a working class, segregated neighborhood in Haifa drove me to become an activist since attending high school, and later on as Arab student movement leader at Tel Aviv University. We had fought for free speech on campus, equal access to housing, as well as against institutional racism and advocated for transforming Israel into a real democracy—a state for all its citizens. We also protested against Israel’s military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza, and believed the Oslo peace process was deeply flawed as it perpetuated Israeli control and domination over Palestinian people, lands and natural resources and intentionally sidelined root causes of the Palestinian question, namely self determination and rights of refugees.
KABAS: You mentioned this double standard, and that's coming up a lot now with the student protests that kicked off at Columbia. There's been a lot of attempts to reframe the conversation to talk about antisemitic incidents and the safety of Jewish students on campus. What do you think the purpose is of reshaping the conversation that way?
DAKWAR: We know that well before October 7th, weaponizing anti-semitism was a way to shut down speech critical of Israel or critical of Zionism. It’s not a new thing.
What's new is the attempt to completely ignore the impact of such a shift on free speech and the safety of all students. I think that antisemitism is real and we should take it very seriously. We should protect people from being attacked for being Jewish. Intimidation or threats need to be taken seriously.
That’s different from criticism of Israel as a state, or criticism of its politics. If Israel is criticized as a state that's committing atrocities, that shouldn't be considered antisemitism.
Unfortunately, accusations of antisemitism are again being used to shut down legitimate criticism of Israel—and what Israel is doing in Gaza, in particular.
Providing a safe campus environment is a noble cause and goal. That doesn't mean that you have to subject people to disciplinary measures by stating particular slogans that are uncomfortable for certain people to hear. Slogans like, “From the river to the sea,” which the House of Representatives condemned in a resolution. To me, it doesn’t represent antisemitism: It is a representation of freeing people from systemic violations of human rights, and creating something that is equal and provides justice for all.
posted by toastyk at 6:59 AM on April 24 [14 favorites]
KABAS: How does having grown up in Israel shape your perspective on the American protests?
DAKWAR: My experience growing up in Israel was of a country that denies equal citizenship to non-Jewish citizens, especially Palestinians who are treated as undesirable guests in their own homeland. Growing up as a second-class citizen in a working class, segregated neighborhood in Haifa drove me to become an activist since attending high school, and later on as Arab student movement leader at Tel Aviv University. We had fought for free speech on campus, equal access to housing, as well as against institutional racism and advocated for transforming Israel into a real democracy—a state for all its citizens. We also protested against Israel’s military occupation in the West Bank and Gaza, and believed the Oslo peace process was deeply flawed as it perpetuated Israeli control and domination over Palestinian people, lands and natural resources and intentionally sidelined root causes of the Palestinian question, namely self determination and rights of refugees.
KABAS: You mentioned this double standard, and that's coming up a lot now with the student protests that kicked off at Columbia. There's been a lot of attempts to reframe the conversation to talk about antisemitic incidents and the safety of Jewish students on campus. What do you think the purpose is of reshaping the conversation that way?
DAKWAR: We know that well before October 7th, weaponizing anti-semitism was a way to shut down speech critical of Israel or critical of Zionism. It’s not a new thing.
What's new is the attempt to completely ignore the impact of such a shift on free speech and the safety of all students. I think that antisemitism is real and we should take it very seriously. We should protect people from being attacked for being Jewish. Intimidation or threats need to be taken seriously.
That’s different from criticism of Israel as a state, or criticism of its politics. If Israel is criticized as a state that's committing atrocities, that shouldn't be considered antisemitism.
Unfortunately, accusations of antisemitism are again being used to shut down legitimate criticism of Israel—and what Israel is doing in Gaza, in particular.
Providing a safe campus environment is a noble cause and goal. That doesn't mean that you have to subject people to disciplinary measures by stating particular slogans that are uncomfortable for certain people to hear. Slogans like, “From the river to the sea,” which the House of Representatives condemned in a resolution. To me, it doesn’t represent antisemitism: It is a representation of freeing people from systemic violations of human rights, and creating something that is equal and provides justice for all.
posted by toastyk at 6:59 AM on April 24 [14 favorites]
I noted that many Israelis are West Asian and African to point out that they are from that region (I was going to specify North African, but didn't want to exclude Ethiopian Israelis). They are just as "indigenous" as Palestinians - and ended up in that specific part of West Asia because of the ethnic cleansing that took place before as well as after the founding of Israel.
Erm… that someone is indigenous to Ethiopia doesn’t make them indigenous to Israel/Palestine. There is a significant physical and cultural distance between the two. Indigeneity within Egypt doesn’t even translate to indigeneity within the Arabian peninsula doesn’t translate to indigeneity within modern-day Syria, Turkey, Iran, Georgia, Azerbaijan, etc., even though a few of those sub-regions (modern day Egypt, Israel/Palestine, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, and Iraq) are grouped together as the broader Levant region for other purposes.
posted by eviemath at 7:00 AM on April 24 [6 favorites]
Erm… that someone is indigenous to Ethiopia doesn’t make them indigenous to Israel/Palestine. There is a significant physical and cultural distance between the two. Indigeneity within Egypt doesn’t even translate to indigeneity within the Arabian peninsula doesn’t translate to indigeneity within modern-day Syria, Turkey, Iran, Georgia, Azerbaijan, etc., even though a few of those sub-regions (modern day Egypt, Israel/Palestine, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey, and Iraq) are grouped together as the broader Levant region for other purposes.
posted by eviemath at 7:00 AM on April 24 [6 favorites]
that the Jews were expelled from the land 2000 years before doesn't really matter when they arrived and there were people living there and they proceeded to treat those people as an other, displacing them with much killing and destruction from the land they were living on.
none of that matters when the issue right now is that the Israeli government with the backing of the US government is destroying a mostly civilian population. that's what people are protesting.
posted by kokaku at 7:29 AM on April 24 [15 favorites]
none of that matters when the issue right now is that the Israeli government with the backing of the US government is destroying a mostly civilian population. that's what people are protesting.
posted by kokaku at 7:29 AM on April 24 [15 favorites]
Trying to call “from the river to the sea” a call for violence is right from the playbook of MAGA spin of “Black Lives Matter.” How anyone fails to see this is beyond me.
posted by iamck at 7:50 AM on April 24 [22 favorites]
posted by iamck at 7:50 AM on April 24 [22 favorites]
Most Americans probably know neither the name of the river nor the sea in question. With the baseline level of ignorance involved, I imagine an awful lot of people interpret it with unfavorable connotations. It's just not a good slogan to be reaching for in stateside protests where the goal is presumably to win people over to your side. Especially considering y'know, the whole genocide thing, it shouldn't be so difficult to find a better rallying cry.
posted by otsebyatina at 8:09 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
posted by otsebyatina at 8:09 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
the whole genocide thing
The genocide Israel is currently commiting, you mean? And realistically, has been for the last 75 years?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:12 AM on April 24 [7 favorites]
The genocide Israel is currently commiting, you mean? And realistically, has been for the last 75 years?
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:12 AM on April 24 [7 favorites]
know what would shut down the slogan for good? freedom for Palestinians from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River.
posted by sagc at 8:13 AM on April 24 [5 favorites]
posted by sagc at 8:13 AM on April 24 [5 favorites]
Is that a real question? What else would it be referring to do you imagine?
posted by otsebyatina at 8:14 AM on April 24
posted by otsebyatina at 8:14 AM on April 24
I'd say the time spent discussing whether people are saying the right things in the right way is a distraction from the people making the decisions that lead to daily deaths in Gaza
we talk about slogans in N. America but if it wasn't that it would be something else: "sure they can protest, but they're giving some students bad vibes"
remember when the BDS campaigns were hit with the antisemitism charges? so if you have 1,000 people trying to effect some kind of pressure to force a state to stop bulldozing and oppressing a targeted group, and a few dozens of those people say the wrong thing, now the whole deal is illegitimate?
these comments in isolation, they are pernicious. the whole focus gets shifted to stuff that matters far less than the daily reality of what is happening to Palestinians. some fucking chant "river to the sea" may cause some people discomfort, but Israel state policies are meanwhile are contributing to a world that will be less safe for everybody and especially the diaspora of Jewish people
posted by elkevelvet at 8:19 AM on April 24 [11 favorites]
we talk about slogans in N. America but if it wasn't that it would be something else: "sure they can protest, but they're giving some students bad vibes"
remember when the BDS campaigns were hit with the antisemitism charges? so if you have 1,000 people trying to effect some kind of pressure to force a state to stop bulldozing and oppressing a targeted group, and a few dozens of those people say the wrong thing, now the whole deal is illegitimate?
these comments in isolation, they are pernicious. the whole focus gets shifted to stuff that matters far less than the daily reality of what is happening to Palestinians. some fucking chant "river to the sea" may cause some people discomfort, but Israel state policies are meanwhile are contributing to a world that will be less safe for everybody and especially the diaspora of Jewish people
posted by elkevelvet at 8:19 AM on April 24 [11 favorites]
Also, if the purpose of activism is only to communicate who know every single detail of the platform... But I guess, when in doubt, lean on the low-information myth. It also sounds similar to how so much handwringing about how confrontational "ACAB" is.
posted by cendawanita at 8:23 AM on April 24 [6 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:23 AM on April 24 [6 favorites]
It would probably be helpful if the US mainstream news media and political elites weren't 100% committed to the dehumanisation of Palestinians and the unconditional support of Israel regardless of what atrocities it may commit. That's significantly more of a problem than a slogan. The pearl-clutching and histrionics over mere words has gone beyond absurd to appalling.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:23 AM on April 24 [12 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:23 AM on April 24 [12 favorites]
I have been opposed to the Israeli settlements for years. As someone in the Jewish community, I am constantly needing to engage with these issues.
Congratulations you have the baseline common sense views of pretty much every bog-standard right wing liberal zionist.
If being against ethnic cleansing
Once again, Israel is not at risk of "ethnic cleansing" this is not a thing, this is some shit that right-wingers have to make up to support their right-wing narrative to support apartheid and war, no matter how much you want to make the deliberate choice to read into some chants or slogans you heard some people doing at some protests.
"River to the sea", "not condemning Hamas loudly enough", "Criticizing Israel but not XYZ", saying this sentence too closely to that other sentence, all of this stupid shit that the same people wet their pants over again and again - none of it is antisemitic, none of it is a "threat" to anyones "safety", none of it is "supporting ethnic cleansing" of jews in Israel. You're just objectively wrong, take the L and move on, it's boring, no one cares. It's over. It's done. It doesn't work. You can't say you're a "leftist" or a progressive or whatever and also parrot these Israeli government party lines, sorry, doesn't work that way!
posted by windbox at 8:29 AM on April 24 [15 favorites]
Congratulations you have the baseline common sense views of pretty much every bog-standard right wing liberal zionist.
If being against ethnic cleansing
Once again, Israel is not at risk of "ethnic cleansing" this is not a thing, this is some shit that right-wingers have to make up to support their right-wing narrative to support apartheid and war, no matter how much you want to make the deliberate choice to read into some chants or slogans you heard some people doing at some protests.
"River to the sea", "not condemning Hamas loudly enough", "Criticizing Israel but not XYZ", saying this sentence too closely to that other sentence, all of this stupid shit that the same people wet their pants over again and again - none of it is antisemitic, none of it is a "threat" to anyones "safety", none of it is "supporting ethnic cleansing" of jews in Israel. You're just objectively wrong, take the L and move on, it's boring, no one cares. It's over. It's done. It doesn't work. You can't say you're a "leftist" or a progressive or whatever and also parrot these Israeli government party lines, sorry, doesn't work that way!
posted by windbox at 8:29 AM on April 24 [15 favorites]
I don’t really think the debate over the meaning or application of the word indigenous is particularly important compared to all the people dying right now, but as a matter of history, there is a population of Jews that has lived continuously in Israel and were never expelled. Some are called Samaritans and they have an independent religious authority. It is not a large group, about 1,000. In addition to the group specifically identifying as Samaritans, I’ve seen historical estimates of the religious population of the area throughout the Ottoman Empire of about 85%/10%/5% Muslim, Christian, and Jewish.
Not that it matters. ‘Indigenous’ isn’t a get out of jail free card.
posted by bq at 8:30 AM on April 24 [2 favorites]
Not that it matters. ‘Indigenous’ isn’t a get out of jail free card.
posted by bq at 8:30 AM on April 24 [2 favorites]
Fair enough. I'll keep my histrionic comments to my pearl-clutching self in the future, and just hope the rest of you know well enough what you're doing.
posted by otsebyatina at 8:33 AM on April 24
posted by otsebyatina at 8:33 AM on April 24
just hope the rest of you know well enough what you're doing.
Yes standing against an actual genocide and not a pretend hypothetical one that is very much Not a Thing is what some of us are doing.
posted by windbox at 8:38 AM on April 24 [10 favorites]
Yes standing against an actual genocide and not a pretend hypothetical one that is very much Not a Thing is what some of us are doing.
posted by windbox at 8:38 AM on April 24 [10 favorites]
but as a matter of history, there is a population of Jews that has lived continuously in Israel and were never expelled.
Where do you think the Palestinians came from? They're the descendants of the historical population of Roman Palestine who never left in the first place and converted first to Christianity and then to Islam. The fact that some of the population never converted doesn't give Jews in general any kind of superior claim to indigineity.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:39 AM on April 24 [2 favorites]
Where do you think the Palestinians came from? They're the descendants of the historical population of Roman Palestine who never left in the first place and converted first to Christianity and then to Islam. The fact that some of the population never converted doesn't give Jews in general any kind of superior claim to indigineity.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:39 AM on April 24 [2 favorites]
Did I say it did?
posted by bq at 8:41 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
posted by bq at 8:41 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
You are the problem.
I mean this controversially but sincerely! You are the problem, as in, we are the problem, as in, I am the problem.
‘Getting angry and vicious at someone you perceive to be on the wrong side’ is itself how this whole thing spreads. I hope we can understand this. This is a massive victim complex, a huge trauma response at the level of cultures and nation states.
What is needed is compassion and wisdom, not angry righteousness. And it needs to start in you, in me, not in the other person.
I hope this doesn’t come across as a naive gesture. I say this as somehow who has been to Palestine (West Bank), and Israel, and seen firsthand the situation of oppression and apartheid taking place; I’ve been herded through checkpoints, I’ve seen protests, I’ve talked to people who have been shot or lost loved ones, I’ve seen how an atmosphere of fear and paranoia and deep trauma perpetuates the conflict. There is real power and oppression at place. I’m sure many people here know this too.
AND - thus is a psychodrama, with roles to play. They beckon us: “persecuted” and “persecutor”. Which one will you play?
(The trap, of course, is that choosing one creates the other. The only winning move is not to play..)
Do you understand what I’m saying? By getting angry and oppositional, we are replicating precisely the same psychodrama that leads to the conflict in the first place. The problem isn’t “out there”; it’s in here. If we want to help resolve the issue, we might choose to be kinder and calmer in this forum first.
posted by many more sunsets at 8:49 AM on April 24 [15 favorites]
I mean this controversially but sincerely! You are the problem, as in, we are the problem, as in, I am the problem.
‘Getting angry and vicious at someone you perceive to be on the wrong side’ is itself how this whole thing spreads. I hope we can understand this. This is a massive victim complex, a huge trauma response at the level of cultures and nation states.
What is needed is compassion and wisdom, not angry righteousness. And it needs to start in you, in me, not in the other person.
I hope this doesn’t come across as a naive gesture. I say this as somehow who has been to Palestine (West Bank), and Israel, and seen firsthand the situation of oppression and apartheid taking place; I’ve been herded through checkpoints, I’ve seen protests, I’ve talked to people who have been shot or lost loved ones, I’ve seen how an atmosphere of fear and paranoia and deep trauma perpetuates the conflict. There is real power and oppression at place. I’m sure many people here know this too.
AND - thus is a psychodrama, with roles to play. They beckon us: “persecuted” and “persecutor”. Which one will you play?
(The trap, of course, is that choosing one creates the other. The only winning move is not to play..)
Do you understand what I’m saying? By getting angry and oppositional, we are replicating precisely the same psychodrama that leads to the conflict in the first place. The problem isn’t “out there”; it’s in here. If we want to help resolve the issue, we might choose to be kinder and calmer in this forum first.
posted by many more sunsets at 8:49 AM on April 24 [15 favorites]
I'm with many more sunsets, people can stand to check their tone (I can stand to check my tone)
aggressively shutting people down is not helping the situation.. I suppose the momentary dopamine rush is something, but sometimes it feels like we're quick to engage on a level that is.. not helpful
like, not every single comment needs a corrective
posted by elkevelvet at 8:59 AM on April 24 [9 favorites]
aggressively shutting people down is not helping the situation.. I suppose the momentary dopamine rush is something, but sometimes it feels like we're quick to engage on a level that is.. not helpful
like, not every single comment needs a corrective
posted by elkevelvet at 8:59 AM on April 24 [9 favorites]
OMG NO! We don't need compassion for people actively committing a genocide. We have to be really really really mean to Joe Biden and everyone in the US government who is abetting this genocide.
By getting angry and oppositional, we are replicating precisely the same psychodrama that leads to the conflict in the first place.
Do you honestly think the cause of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is that people were too angry and oppositional?
Sure 10,000 children have been murdered, but could you be a little more kinder to the people who did the murdering of children?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:01 AM on April 24 [18 favorites]
By getting angry and oppositional, we are replicating precisely the same psychodrama that leads to the conflict in the first place.
Do you honestly think the cause of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is that people were too angry and oppositional?
Sure 10,000 children have been murdered, but could you be a little more kinder to the people who did the murdering of children?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:01 AM on April 24 [18 favorites]
"The situation of oppression and apartheid taking place," "people who have been shot or lost loved ones," "an atmosphere of fear and paranoia and deep trauma" ...why use the NYT style guide if they're not even paying you?
posted by i like crows very much at 9:06 AM on April 24 [12 favorites]
posted by i like crows very much at 9:06 AM on April 24 [12 favorites]
We have to be really really really mean to Joe Biden and everyone in the US government who is abetting this genocide.
I agree, but to use a Gen Z meme, are the people in the US government in the room right now? Still, I know where I'm directing my saltiness at, and if anything for here, I try to not be confused between being firm and being mean. I am definitely sarcastic though.
Anyway came in here to say: I find the reception (not here) to Naomi Klein interesting, in that it was clear she was seen as too sympathetic to Zionism for a group of people - there's an old tweet from Refaat Alareer that is still going around sometimes - and her post-Oct 7 Guardian opinion piece that also expressed what she thought was too much celebration over Jewish deaths also gets brought up as evidence for distrust. But you know, for all that she didn't follow the other Naomi that sparked her Doppelganger book, and one that would be unsurprising, to depend on some comments here - instead in the last few months she's been a reliable critical voice against Zionism, especially within the diaspora, and she shows up, and keeps on keeping on. So her actions indicates to me it's not like it's an impossible ask to, paraphrase windbox's comments, to get over the discomfort and commit to solidarity.
She's not spent these last months being upset at having her past work brought up, and those are by her hands, not even a theoretical bit of being potentially upset expressed to no one in particular. Anyway, the text from her speech she gave at the emergency Seder yesterday in NYC is on the Guardian now: We need an exodus from Zionism
posted by cendawanita at 9:08 AM on April 24 [14 favorites]
I agree, but to use a Gen Z meme, are the people in the US government in the room right now? Still, I know where I'm directing my saltiness at, and if anything for here, I try to not be confused between being firm and being mean. I am definitely sarcastic though.
Anyway came in here to say: I find the reception (not here) to Naomi Klein interesting, in that it was clear she was seen as too sympathetic to Zionism for a group of people - there's an old tweet from Refaat Alareer that is still going around sometimes - and her post-Oct 7 Guardian opinion piece that also expressed what she thought was too much celebration over Jewish deaths also gets brought up as evidence for distrust. But you know, for all that she didn't follow the other Naomi that sparked her Doppelganger book, and one that would be unsurprising, to depend on some comments here - instead in the last few months she's been a reliable critical voice against Zionism, especially within the diaspora, and she shows up, and keeps on keeping on. So her actions indicates to me it's not like it's an impossible ask to, paraphrase windbox's comments, to get over the discomfort and commit to solidarity.
She's not spent these last months being upset at having her past work brought up, and those are by her hands, not even a theoretical bit of being potentially upset expressed to no one in particular. Anyway, the text from her speech she gave at the emergency Seder yesterday in NYC is on the Guardian now: We need an exodus from Zionism
posted by cendawanita at 9:08 AM on April 24 [14 favorites]
MisantropicPainforest, in your haste to comment you may have missed that no-one is suggesting anyone needs to back down against murderous regimes. There are people contributing to the discussion in this space who aren't necessarily aligned to your view 100% of the time. If you think everyone who engages in this space and fails to meet your personal level of correct thought needs to be jumped on, I disagree. Is this a discussion space or a shouting space?
There are lots of examples, it just seems unnecessary. Who are we performing for?
posted by elkevelvet at 9:11 AM on April 24 [4 favorites]
There are lots of examples, it just seems unnecessary. Who are we performing for?
posted by elkevelvet at 9:11 AM on April 24 [4 favorites]
Hurt people hurt people.
It’s necessary to act in justice and compassion at the same time, to stop injustice in a compassionate way. Isn’t this what prison abolition is about? Isn’t this what liberation is about? If we are all to be free, it means to acknowledge the traumas and hurts that lead people to be lash out and be violent, on all ends, so that suffering for everyone is lessened.
Being compassionate does not mean being passive. To me, this means, trying not to act on one’s unconscious cruelty or sadism under the guise of justice.
posted by many more sunsets at 9:12 AM on April 24 [10 favorites]
It’s necessary to act in justice and compassion at the same time, to stop injustice in a compassionate way. Isn’t this what prison abolition is about? Isn’t this what liberation is about? If we are all to be free, it means to acknowledge the traumas and hurts that lead people to be lash out and be violent, on all ends, so that suffering for everyone is lessened.
Being compassionate does not mean being passive. To me, this means, trying not to act on one’s unconscious cruelty or sadism under the guise of justice.
posted by many more sunsets at 9:12 AM on April 24 [10 favorites]
If we’re in this to be on ‘the winning team’ or ‘the right side of history’, I don’t think it will resolve. Everyone believes themselves to be on the right side. Everyone gets into the same arguments, over and over.
Are we on the side of ‘taking sides’? Or are we on the side that doesn’t have sides, that values a human life, full stop? Which ‘side’ do you choose?
In a family, two brothers get into a fight. One is strangling the other to death. The one being strangled is frantically stabbing the other. Which brother should you save? This is a trick question.
posted by many more sunsets at 9:22 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
Are we on the side of ‘taking sides’? Or are we on the side that doesn’t have sides, that values a human life, full stop? Which ‘side’ do you choose?
In a family, two brothers get into a fight. One is strangling the other to death. The one being strangled is frantically stabbing the other. Which brother should you save? This is a trick question.
posted by many more sunsets at 9:22 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
Thanks cendawanita for linking the Klein piece. It’s a transcript of a speech given at a Seder in the Streets event in NYC — such events happened all over yesterday. I came here to post it because one thing it gets very right is reminding us how much the Passover story and the Exodus impacted many world religions. I grew up going to a Presbyterian church and that part of the Bible was one of my favorite stories. The variants of christianity I’ve been engaged with have always been fairly liberal so the stories of the Exodus were always taken metaphorically and pretty liberally — a call for freedom and self-determination.
It hurts that the US discourse and especially the criticism of campus protests has focused so much on word choices and minor incidents (most overblown or not actually at protests) instead of the very real underlying concerns that some people are not seen as equal members of the human family and are denied freedom and self-determination. There’s active violence killing many thousands of children and others who are not commiting violence.
posted by R343L at 9:24 AM on April 24 [8 favorites]
It hurts that the US discourse and especially the criticism of campus protests has focused so much on word choices and minor incidents (most overblown or not actually at protests) instead of the very real underlying concerns that some people are not seen as equal members of the human family and are denied freedom and self-determination. There’s active violence killing many thousands of children and others who are not commiting violence.
posted by R343L at 9:24 AM on April 24 [8 favorites]
You can't even stop picking on the jews, even on Passover?
We have a story of liberation, too... and I know you want to deny it, but it looks a lot like freedom from the folks who want to murder us all because we're jewish.
posted by ph00dz at 9:31 AM on April 24
We have a story of liberation, too... and I know you want to deny it, but it looks a lot like freedom from the folks who want to murder us all because we're jewish.
posted by ph00dz at 9:31 AM on April 24
*resets the countdown back to zero*
posted by cendawanita at 9:35 AM on April 24 [15 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:35 AM on April 24 [15 favorites]
Naomi Klein is Jewish. She is not "picking on the Jews…on Passover", she is celebrating Passover.
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:41 AM on April 24 [17 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:41 AM on April 24 [17 favorites]
I spent my whole Passover seder trying not to point out that Palestinians, right now, are the people brutally suffering at the hands of a tyrannical empire that goes out of its way to exterminate their children. Naomi Klein is not the first one to notice this connection.
The notion that it's anti-semitic not to think of the Palestinian people on Passover flies in the face of what Passover's really celebrating: the liberation of a people without a home from their oppressive overlords. The moral at the end isn't "Man, it would be great if WE could do the oppressing for a change."
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 9:54 AM on April 24 [24 favorites]
The notion that it's anti-semitic not to think of the Palestinian people on Passover flies in the face of what Passover's really celebrating: the liberation of a people without a home from their oppressive overlords. The moral at the end isn't "Man, it would be great if WE could do the oppressing for a change."
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 9:54 AM on April 24 [24 favorites]
For what it's worth -- coming from a seder last night in a previously pretty liberal synagogue, we're horrified by the state of antisemitism in the US. You can say "shut up little Jew" and lecture it away, but that's our experience. Like, what happened to all our allies? How would the situation in Gaza be different if, instead of immediately denouncing Israel on Oct 8, these "human rights" organizations had stood by their values and called for justice against the terrorists who murdered, raped and killed civilians.
It goes without saying, everything we do now is under even heavier guard than before. I walk my 3 year old past a guy with a machine gun, when I deliver him to school... I'll make sure to reassure him that there are significant numbers of people who would celebrate his murder, or if he was kidnapped, would rip down his signs reminding people of his captivity.
I know you disagree, but this is your report from a pretty run-of-the-mill Jewish community. You don't need to lecture me about how I'm wrong, thanks Goyim.
... and for what it's worth, I don't disagree Tom Hanks.
posted by ph00dz at 9:57 AM on April 24 [3 favorites]
It goes without saying, everything we do now is under even heavier guard than before. I walk my 3 year old past a guy with a machine gun, when I deliver him to school... I'll make sure to reassure him that there are significant numbers of people who would celebrate his murder, or if he was kidnapped, would rip down his signs reminding people of his captivity.
I know you disagree, but this is your report from a pretty run-of-the-mill Jewish community. You don't need to lecture me about how I'm wrong, thanks Goyim.
... and for what it's worth, I don't disagree Tom Hanks.
posted by ph00dz at 9:57 AM on April 24 [3 favorites]
Naomi Klein is Jewish. She is not "picking on the Jews…on Passover", she is celebrating Passover
Yes, it’s really important to note that her condemnation of Zionism is woven deeply into the Passover story. The entire thing is worth a read, but:
Yes, it’s really important to note that her condemnation of Zionism is woven deeply into the Passover story. The entire thing is worth a read, but:
That false idol is called Zionism.posted by corb at 9:59 AM on April 24 [9 favorites]
It is a false idol that takes our most profound biblical stories of justice and emancipation from slavery – the story of Passover itself – and turns them into brutalist weapons of colonial land theft, roadmaps for ethnic cleansing and genocide.
…
From the start it has produced an ugly kind of freedom that saw Palestinian children not as human beings but as demographic threats – much as the pharaoh in the Book of Exodus feared the growing population of Israelites, and thus ordered the death of their sons.”
You don't need to lecture me about how I'm wrong, thanks Goyim.
You don't speak for Naomi Klein, or me, or millions of other Jews in this country. Your rabidly antisemitic worldview denies us our Judaism and accuses us of being the monsters who want to murder Jews, when it is the Jewish hate groups and apparently the vast majority of the Israeli government who are publicly calling for the feds to maim and murder Jews peacefully exercising their right to protest.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:06 AM on April 24 [23 favorites]
You don't speak for Naomi Klein, or me, or millions of other Jews in this country. Your rabidly antisemitic worldview denies us our Judaism and accuses us of being the monsters who want to murder Jews, when it is the Jewish hate groups and apparently the vast majority of the Israeli government who are publicly calling for the feds to maim and murder Jews peacefully exercising their right to protest.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:06 AM on April 24 [23 favorites]
I thought this piece by Amir Fleischmann (How European nationalism and Zionism crushed the Arab-Jewish alliance) can respond to the Mizrahim tangent:
The Arab Jews that came to Israel did so as both refugee and coloniser. This is no contradiction. The application of the label of settler colonialism to Israel is not a matter of moral condemnation. It describes a structure of ongoing dispossession and elimination of native inhabitants for the benefit of the settlers.
Though Arab Jews were initially placed in camps when they came to Israel, though they have been attacked by Jewish supremacists mistaking them for Muslim Arabs, and though there has never been a 'Mizrahi' Prime Minister, Arab Jews in Israel still benefit from the colonial expropriation of Palestine.
This is captured even in the nomenclature used to describe Arab citizens of Israel: in a chain of erasures, Arab Jews are recast as 'Mizrahim', eliding their Arab identity, and 1948 Palestinian citizens of Israel become 'Arab Israelis', eliding their Palestinian identity. In both cases, their identity must be restructured in the face of Zionism.
posted by cendawanita at 10:11 AM on April 24 [10 favorites]
The Arab Jews that came to Israel did so as both refugee and coloniser. This is no contradiction. The application of the label of settler colonialism to Israel is not a matter of moral condemnation. It describes a structure of ongoing dispossession and elimination of native inhabitants for the benefit of the settlers.
Though Arab Jews were initially placed in camps when they came to Israel, though they have been attacked by Jewish supremacists mistaking them for Muslim Arabs, and though there has never been a 'Mizrahi' Prime Minister, Arab Jews in Israel still benefit from the colonial expropriation of Palestine.
This is captured even in the nomenclature used to describe Arab citizens of Israel: in a chain of erasures, Arab Jews are recast as 'Mizrahim', eliding their Arab identity, and 1948 Palestinian citizens of Israel become 'Arab Israelis', eliding their Palestinian identity. In both cases, their identity must be restructured in the face of Zionism.
posted by cendawanita at 10:11 AM on April 24 [10 favorites]
OMG, are we using biblical stories for historical and political analysis really is Edward g Robinson going to pop in and go where's your God now, sheeh. Is Ankheaten available for comment via the Armana letters and how perhaps a 10-year Revolution and exploration of monotheism was really 40 years in the making. do we really need to blame Amun and Titus.
posted by clavdivs at 10:31 AM on April 24 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 10:31 AM on April 24 [2 favorites]
The reason people "immediately denounced Israel" on Oct 8th is because everyone correctly assumed that Israel's response to the Oct 7th attacks would be almost incomprehensibly brutal.
"Like, what happened to all our allies? How would the situation in Gaza be different if, instead of immediately denouncing Israel on Oct 8, these "human rights" organizations had stood by their values and called for justice against the terrorists who murdered, raped and killed civilians."
Hm, the situation probably would be exactly the same, with a death toll rapidly approaching 40,000 while stateside Zionists cheer on a barbaric genocide.
Are you saying Israel would have NOT killed almost 40,000 people including literally thousands of children if human rights organizations hadn't correctly guessed that they were about to kill literally thousands of children?
How do people say things like this? "I'll make sure to reassure him that there are significant numbers of people who would celebrate his murder, or if he was kidnapped, would rip down his signs reminding people of his captivity." You're talking about hypothetical celebration of murder. There is actual celebration of murder taking place.''
Once again tabling a motion for "condemnations" to be proportional to death toll, so, we're at about thirty-eight anti-Israel statements for every single anti-Hamas one.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 10:31 AM on April 24 [19 favorites]
"Like, what happened to all our allies? How would the situation in Gaza be different if, instead of immediately denouncing Israel on Oct 8, these "human rights" organizations had stood by their values and called for justice against the terrorists who murdered, raped and killed civilians."
Hm, the situation probably would be exactly the same, with a death toll rapidly approaching 40,000 while stateside Zionists cheer on a barbaric genocide.
Are you saying Israel would have NOT killed almost 40,000 people including literally thousands of children if human rights organizations hadn't correctly guessed that they were about to kill literally thousands of children?
How do people say things like this? "I'll make sure to reassure him that there are significant numbers of people who would celebrate his murder, or if he was kidnapped, would rip down his signs reminding people of his captivity." You're talking about hypothetical celebration of murder. There is actual celebration of murder taking place.''
Once again tabling a motion for "condemnations" to be proportional to death toll, so, we're at about thirty-eight anti-Israel statements for every single anti-Hamas one.
posted by Cpt. The Mango at 10:31 AM on April 24 [19 favorites]
An old interview with Yeshayahu Leibowitz, in 1990 with another Israeli, Eyal Sivan:
Q: Perhaps we’re prisoners of our own memory?
A: No. We use this memory to distract our thoughts from the real question: what are we really? What is our nature? What duty do we recognize?
We can avoid all problems, even the most difficult ones, whether those of Man in general or the Jewish man in particular, by deviating these questions into “what harm have they caused us?” As though the wrongs that we have suffered from have a role to play in defining our essence. What has happened is significant for the ‘Goyim’ world [the non-Jewish people], not to our essence!
And since our educational system is absolutely incapable of providing us with any form of Jewish values adapted to our present reality, the escape towards the past, what happened to us, is very well exploited to distract our minds from all problems, from all obligations.
From all responsibility as well. We have no responsibility regardless of what we do because in the end we have become the people who did this to us. [note: translating this was difficult. The original French was “Nous n’avons aucune responsabilite quoi que nous fassions, puisque enfin nous sommes precisement ceux a qui on a fait tout cela!” could be understood as him saying that “‘we’ (the Israeli Jews) have become the oppressors”]
---
Q: You always go back to World War II and you use words like “Judeo-Nazis”. Why?
A: The minister of Defense [Yitzhak Rabin] who gave the order to break the arms and legs of Palestinian prisoners is a Nazi. And the president of the High Court [Moshe Landau] who judged that torturing prisoners was allowed is a Nazi.
Q: But how could those “Judeo-Nazis” be raised here, in Israel?
A: Because they have no other value than patriotism. No other value. No other value for the people of the State of Israel than their nationality!
Q: So are all of these days dedicated to “memory” pure fabrications? Part of a process that, starting from humanity, passes by nationality and ends up in barbarism..
A: Ends up in bestiality! Don’t avoid using the same term! He talked specifically about “bestiality.” Yes.. bestiality is when a man receives the order to break the arms and legs of another man and obeys it! Without hesitation!
Q: But how is it possible that students who learned about the Holocaust for 12 years are capable of acting like Nazis?
A: Ask them!
Q: But what do you think?
A: I don’t think. I simply determine what the facts are. I know for a fact that those soldiers who received the order to break the legs and arms of prisoners obeyed such order, exactly like the German soldiers who obeyed their orders.
Q: A very common slogan repeated in Israel is “the whole world is against us”. Why?
A: Because it’s very comfortable! There’s nothing more comfortable for a man than to convince himself that the others are bad and the he is in the right. It’s extremely cheap. Whereas in fact, no state has ever been so spoiled as the State of Israel. It was created solely thanks to the Goyim world. You think we had the strength to create it on our own? I know how much we did during the 60 years that preceded the creation of the State. But all of that would’ve been insufficient if the Goys hadn’t decided that this state should be created. In fact, it was one of the anomalies of the cold war: both the US and the USSR had agreed on the creation of the State.
What tools did we use during the War of Independence? I can tell you that. I had a Soviet weapon in my hand, as did all the soldiers who were with me. We all had Soviet weapons. But the money was American. And these were all gifts. Soviet weapons and American money! I know today that the young men and women who hear this from me are astounded. We fought in the War of Independence with Soviet weapons via Czechoslovakia. Those of the Stalin era, not those of today. I still remember how during the night of the 5 to 6th of May 1948, the first military plane from Prague landed, piloted by one of my colleagues from Prague University! Prague during the time of Stalinist Czechoslovakia. This is what’s called “the whole world is with us”. It was the mistake of the Arabs who didn’t understand that by opposing the creation of the State of Israel, they were fighting against the entire world. That was their folly. Today, it’s ours. We do not understand that we’re fighting against the world world. Yes, the whole world is now on the side of the Arabs.
Q: In the end, the “whole world is against us” is therefore justified..
A: Yes, but it’s a situation that we provoked, because we are against the whole world! Do you realize how comfortable that is?
Q: For who?
A: For us. We therefore avoid asking ourselves “What have we become?”, “What should we do?”. Nothing more comfortable than reducing our reality into what they have done to us. We’re evading any conscience evaluation. Who are we? What do we value? What should we do? What values do we recognize? We are those who have gone through horrible things and this exempts us from all responsibility. This is our psychological back drop today.
Q: Is our education system aware of that?
A: I already told you that I don’t know if teachers are aware of this. But when you do ask them such questions as “Who are we?”, “What are we?”, “What are our values?”, the question is very hard to answer so we avoid it because we are those to whom all the wrongs have been inflicted. So we allow ourselves to be pretentious, immoral… but who cares since we are those to whom all the wrongs have been inflicted! We just need to be reminded of that and we’re immediately exempted from everything! We can therefore massacre Arabs in refugee camps. Aren’t we those that have once caused us all of this?
Q: What sort of person would this education system produce?
A: A fascist.
posted by cendawanita at 10:35 AM on April 24 [17 favorites]
Q: Perhaps we’re prisoners of our own memory?
A: No. We use this memory to distract our thoughts from the real question: what are we really? What is our nature? What duty do we recognize?
We can avoid all problems, even the most difficult ones, whether those of Man in general or the Jewish man in particular, by deviating these questions into “what harm have they caused us?” As though the wrongs that we have suffered from have a role to play in defining our essence. What has happened is significant for the ‘Goyim’ world [the non-Jewish people], not to our essence!
And since our educational system is absolutely incapable of providing us with any form of Jewish values adapted to our present reality, the escape towards the past, what happened to us, is very well exploited to distract our minds from all problems, from all obligations.
From all responsibility as well. We have no responsibility regardless of what we do because in the end we have become the people who did this to us. [note: translating this was difficult. The original French was “Nous n’avons aucune responsabilite quoi que nous fassions, puisque enfin nous sommes precisement ceux a qui on a fait tout cela!” could be understood as him saying that “‘we’ (the Israeli Jews) have become the oppressors”]
---
Q: You always go back to World War II and you use words like “Judeo-Nazis”. Why?
A: The minister of Defense [Yitzhak Rabin] who gave the order to break the arms and legs of Palestinian prisoners is a Nazi. And the president of the High Court [Moshe Landau] who judged that torturing prisoners was allowed is a Nazi.
Q: But how could those “Judeo-Nazis” be raised here, in Israel?
A: Because they have no other value than patriotism. No other value. No other value for the people of the State of Israel than their nationality!
Q: So are all of these days dedicated to “memory” pure fabrications? Part of a process that, starting from humanity, passes by nationality and ends up in barbarism..
A: Ends up in bestiality! Don’t avoid using the same term! He talked specifically about “bestiality.” Yes.. bestiality is when a man receives the order to break the arms and legs of another man and obeys it! Without hesitation!
Q: But how is it possible that students who learned about the Holocaust for 12 years are capable of acting like Nazis?
A: Ask them!
Q: But what do you think?
A: I don’t think. I simply determine what the facts are. I know for a fact that those soldiers who received the order to break the legs and arms of prisoners obeyed such order, exactly like the German soldiers who obeyed their orders.
Q: A very common slogan repeated in Israel is “the whole world is against us”. Why?
A: Because it’s very comfortable! There’s nothing more comfortable for a man than to convince himself that the others are bad and the he is in the right. It’s extremely cheap. Whereas in fact, no state has ever been so spoiled as the State of Israel. It was created solely thanks to the Goyim world. You think we had the strength to create it on our own? I know how much we did during the 60 years that preceded the creation of the State. But all of that would’ve been insufficient if the Goys hadn’t decided that this state should be created. In fact, it was one of the anomalies of the cold war: both the US and the USSR had agreed on the creation of the State.
What tools did we use during the War of Independence? I can tell you that. I had a Soviet weapon in my hand, as did all the soldiers who were with me. We all had Soviet weapons. But the money was American. And these were all gifts. Soviet weapons and American money! I know today that the young men and women who hear this from me are astounded. We fought in the War of Independence with Soviet weapons via Czechoslovakia. Those of the Stalin era, not those of today. I still remember how during the night of the 5 to 6th of May 1948, the first military plane from Prague landed, piloted by one of my colleagues from Prague University! Prague during the time of Stalinist Czechoslovakia. This is what’s called “the whole world is with us”. It was the mistake of the Arabs who didn’t understand that by opposing the creation of the State of Israel, they were fighting against the entire world. That was their folly. Today, it’s ours. We do not understand that we’re fighting against the world world. Yes, the whole world is now on the side of the Arabs.
Q: In the end, the “whole world is against us” is therefore justified..
A: Yes, but it’s a situation that we provoked, because we are against the whole world! Do you realize how comfortable that is?
Q: For who?
A: For us. We therefore avoid asking ourselves “What have we become?”, “What should we do?”. Nothing more comfortable than reducing our reality into what they have done to us. We’re evading any conscience evaluation. Who are we? What do we value? What should we do? What values do we recognize? We are those who have gone through horrible things and this exempts us from all responsibility. This is our psychological back drop today.
Q: Is our education system aware of that?
A: I already told you that I don’t know if teachers are aware of this. But when you do ask them such questions as “Who are we?”, “What are we?”, “What are our values?”, the question is very hard to answer so we avoid it because we are those to whom all the wrongs have been inflicted. So we allow ourselves to be pretentious, immoral… but who cares since we are those to whom all the wrongs have been inflicted! We just need to be reminded of that and we’re immediately exempted from everything! We can therefore massacre Arabs in refugee camps. Aren’t we those that have once caused us all of this?
Q: What sort of person would this education system produce?
A: A fascist.
posted by cendawanita at 10:35 AM on April 24 [17 favorites]
ph00dz You can't even stop picking on the jews, even on Passover?
Just a question, if I may.
Do you ACTUALLY believe that saying "Israel shouldn't be committing genocide" is antisemitic picking on Jews, or are you just being hyperbolic?
We have a story of liberation, too
What does that have to do with Israel committing genocide?
... and I know you want to deny it, but it looks a lot like freedom from the folks who want to murder us all because we're jewish.
Every single Palestinian is a genocidal antisemite who wants to murder all Jews simply becuase of their religion? Including the infants?
The ONLY possible way for Jews not to be victims of a hypothetical future genocide is to actively commit a genocide today?
Really?
In your opinion is it possible to be Jewish and not support genocide? Or do you believe that support for genocide is an essential qulity of Judaism so that criticism of genocide is a direct attack on Judaism?
posted by sotonohito at 10:42 AM on April 24 [23 favorites]
Just a question, if I may.
Do you ACTUALLY believe that saying "Israel shouldn't be committing genocide" is antisemitic picking on Jews, or are you just being hyperbolic?
We have a story of liberation, too
What does that have to do with Israel committing genocide?
... and I know you want to deny it, but it looks a lot like freedom from the folks who want to murder us all because we're jewish.
Every single Palestinian is a genocidal antisemite who wants to murder all Jews simply becuase of their religion? Including the infants?
The ONLY possible way for Jews not to be victims of a hypothetical future genocide is to actively commit a genocide today?
Really?
In your opinion is it possible to be Jewish and not support genocide? Or do you believe that support for genocide is an essential qulity of Judaism so that criticism of genocide is a direct attack on Judaism?
posted by sotonohito at 10:42 AM on April 24 [23 favorites]
I’d like to interject a relevant point to the ostensible thread topic: one of the student protestors reasons for protesting is that their own institutions of learning and their own government are supporting and funding the killing. You hear less condemnation of Hamas not because all that many people truly support Hamas or their actions, but because their own government and universities aren’t supporting Hamas with literally billions in military aid (in the case of the US government) or finances (in the case of universities’ investment portfolios). Also: pretty much every humanitarian organization has repeatedly condemned Hamas’ actions but they are justifiably more focused on stopping ongoing killing. Continually re-litigating whether or not a certain group is sufficiently condemnatory of Hamas’s brutality is a tactic to distract from the reality that children in Gaza are dying RIGHT NOW, their education and health systems have been nearly entirely destroyed and their families murdered often orphaning the ones who aren’t murdered. Also many are starving.
posted by R343L at 10:43 AM on April 24 [42 favorites]
posted by R343L at 10:43 AM on April 24 [42 favorites]
It takes an interesting level of projection for westerners to take genocidal violence happening to Palestinians into a story about themselves.
posted by iamck at 11:03 AM on April 24 [12 favorites]
posted by iamck at 11:03 AM on April 24 [12 favorites]
Can anybody offer any insight into just why at least two elite universities have set invited cops onto campus, entertained inviting the National Guard, set deadlines, etc? I have read so many articles on this and I can't really find any clear reasoning.
It just seems sort of surprising in light of 10 or 15 years of history at these liberal institutions -- Occupy, the George Floyd protests, etc. These have all kind of accustomed institutions to weeks of disruption and trying to accommodate those disruptions. It seems crazy in this case to just offer these kids up to the cops, especially because parents, whatever their politics, know that when the cops are called in on someone, they aren't very kind, and presumably parents do expect the university to keep their kids safe from violence even at the hands of the cops.
I can think of just a couple possibilities but none of them are really satisfactory:
1. A subset of big-dollar donors yanking funding--though I've only heard of one big instance of this so far.
2. Recently one Ivy League prez was deposed over Republican manufactured horror over this issue.
3. They just really are that anti-Palestinian and averse to Palestinians being able to live, let alone have some kind of self-determination down the line somewhere. I don't actually buy this one.
I just have to admit I am confused. I don't really "understand" or "give a shit about" Ivy League institutions in general so maybe that's part of why I feel lost in my understanding of this.
posted by kensington314 at 11:10 AM on April 24 [10 favorites]
It just seems sort of surprising in light of 10 or 15 years of history at these liberal institutions -- Occupy, the George Floyd protests, etc. These have all kind of accustomed institutions to weeks of disruption and trying to accommodate those disruptions. It seems crazy in this case to just offer these kids up to the cops, especially because parents, whatever their politics, know that when the cops are called in on someone, they aren't very kind, and presumably parents do expect the university to keep their kids safe from violence even at the hands of the cops.
I can think of just a couple possibilities but none of them are really satisfactory:
1. A subset of big-dollar donors yanking funding--though I've only heard of one big instance of this so far.
2. Recently one Ivy League prez was deposed over Republican manufactured horror over this issue.
3. They just really are that anti-Palestinian and averse to Palestinians being able to live, let alone have some kind of self-determination down the line somewhere. I don't actually buy this one.
I just have to admit I am confused. I don't really "understand" or "give a shit about" Ivy League institutions in general so maybe that's part of why I feel lost in my understanding of this.
posted by kensington314 at 11:10 AM on April 24 [10 favorites]
projection is an image from the past.
these protests are a part of ourselves currently now. you can compare and contrast these protests to the Vietnam War but America was directly involved but let's go back to 1963 October University of Wisconsin when America only had advisors in Vietnam and President Kennedy was still alive. so Americans were protesting the war before we came fully blown out years later perhaps the comparison to these protests is the same in as much as making it known that America's indirect involvement and aiding Israel it's not acceptable.
what I do think is that everybody here agrees these protests should not turn violent.
posted by clavdivs at 11:17 AM on April 24
these protests are a part of ourselves currently now. you can compare and contrast these protests to the Vietnam War but America was directly involved but let's go back to 1963 October University of Wisconsin when America only had advisors in Vietnam and President Kennedy was still alive. so Americans were protesting the war before we came fully blown out years later perhaps the comparison to these protests is the same in as much as making it known that America's indirect involvement and aiding Israel it's not acceptable.
what I do think is that everybody here agrees these protests should not turn violent.
posted by clavdivs at 11:17 AM on April 24
Can anybody offer any insight into just why at least two elite universities have set invited cops onto campus, entertained inviting the National Guard, set deadlines, etc? I have read so many articles on this and I can't really find any clear reasoning.
I think it's as simple as the university presidents don't want to find themselves in DC having a public conversation with Elise. It's humiliating for an intellectual to be dressed down by a ridiculous MAGA buffoon. And it exposes them to the rightwing media machine, which will proceed to unearth anything in their past that can be cast as remotely shameful or dishonest.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:27 AM on April 24 [6 favorites]
I think it's as simple as the university presidents don't want to find themselves in DC having a public conversation with Elise. It's humiliating for an intellectual to be dressed down by a ridiculous MAGA buffoon. And it exposes them to the rightwing media machine, which will proceed to unearth anything in their past that can be cast as remotely shameful or dishonest.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:27 AM on April 24 [6 favorites]
Like, what happened to all our allies?
Do you think being allies to Jews somehow prevents one from being allies with Palestinians? Can you read the goddamn FPP here? I don't know the exact numbers but the leadership of many of these pro-Palestine groups at Columbia are themselves Jewish. This is a Jewish protest against Israel's genocide in Palestine.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:30 AM on April 24 [17 favorites]
Do you think being allies to Jews somehow prevents one from being allies with Palestinians? Can you read the goddamn FPP here? I don't know the exact numbers but the leadership of many of these pro-Palestine groups at Columbia are themselves Jewish. This is a Jewish protest against Israel's genocide in Palestine.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 11:30 AM on April 24 [17 favorites]
I think it's as simple as the university presidents don't want to find themselves in DC having a public conversation with Elise.
Well that's disgusting. But also do they even have to go to Congress, if called?
posted by kensington314 at 11:30 AM on April 24 [4 favorites]
Well that's disgusting. But also do they even have to go to Congress, if called?
posted by kensington314 at 11:30 AM on April 24 [4 favorites]
Can anybody offer any insight into just why at least two elite universities have set invited cops onto campus, entertained inviting the National Guard, set deadlines, etc? I have read so many articles on this and I can't really find any clear reasoning.
I think a lot of it is about the money.
Our campus right now is engaging in a lot of repression, and it's worth noting that it's after some major donors threatened to withdraw funding, but also after some major law firms threatened not to hire students. If we lose BigLaw hiring, then our ranking goes down, and the school loses money, and it can ill afford to lose these big donors who do major institutional giving. And it's worth noting that the donors are threatening in blocs - it's not just one or two, it's like "Ten of your largest donors are all threatening at the same time."
posted by corb at 11:46 AM on April 24 [17 favorites]
I think a lot of it is about the money.
Our campus right now is engaging in a lot of repression, and it's worth noting that it's after some major donors threatened to withdraw funding, but also after some major law firms threatened not to hire students. If we lose BigLaw hiring, then our ranking goes down, and the school loses money, and it can ill afford to lose these big donors who do major institutional giving. And it's worth noting that the donors are threatening in blocs - it's not just one or two, it's like "Ten of your largest donors are all threatening at the same time."
posted by corb at 11:46 AM on April 24 [17 favorites]
Well that's disgusting. But also do they even have to go to Congress, if called?
My understanding is that they do not. So why do they go?!? Hubris?
posted by bq at 11:55 AM on April 24
My understanding is that they do not. So why do they go?!? Hubris?
posted by bq at 11:55 AM on April 24
Pictures from Bluesky: Texas state troopers try to subdue pro-Palestinian protesters at UT-Austin.
Instagram: encampment being set up at Harvard University.
Encampment set up at Brown University. USC. AP live feed at UC Berkeley on YouTube - currently there's a speaker critiquing Zionist feminism. Protests shut down campus at CSU Humboldt.
posted by toastyk at 11:57 AM on April 24 [12 favorites]
Instagram: encampment being set up at Harvard University.
Encampment set up at Brown University. USC. AP live feed at UC Berkeley on YouTube - currently there's a speaker critiquing Zionist feminism. Protests shut down campus at CSU Humboldt.
posted by toastyk at 11:57 AM on April 24 [12 favorites]
An old interview with Yeshayahu Leibowitz, in 1990 with another Israeli, Eyal Sivan
I really don't understand the point of sharing this snippet of Holocaust Inversion, and actually don't care to understand. I do understand it is gross as fuck to read a mefite saying Jews are the real nazis. Hiding it in a pull-quote makes no difference.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 11:58 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
I really don't understand the point of sharing this snippet of Holocaust Inversion, and actually don't care to understand. I do understand it is gross as fuck to read a mefite saying Jews are the real nazis. Hiding it in a pull-quote makes no difference.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 11:58 AM on April 24 [1 favorite]
Albert Einstein believed more or less the same thing, he even predicted that what is now Likud would become a fascist, nationalist thugocracy aimed at a genocidal ethnostate. He also made explicit their ties to both prior and contemporary fascist movements.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:03 PM on April 24 [17 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:03 PM on April 24 [17 favorites]
I should also note that this viewpoint wasn't unusual amongst American Jews at the time. In fact, one of the other signatories of an open letter to the NYT expressing those concerns was none other than Hannah Arendt, who I think we can all agree knows a little something about fascism in general, and Nazis in particular.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:42 PM on April 24 [14 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:42 PM on April 24 [14 favorites]
Intra-Jewish thought is not a good reason for non-Jews to inject random antisemitic tropes into this discussion, call me crazy.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 12:50 PM on April 24 [1 favorite]
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 12:50 PM on April 24 [1 favorite]
How is an open letter to the fucking New York Times "intra-Jewish thought"?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:53 PM on April 24 [15 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 12:53 PM on April 24 [15 favorites]
For those who are interested, here is the full text of the letter.
At no point is there anything indicating this was "intra-Jewish thought" or that it was intended for anything but the entire audience of the newspaper in questions. In fact, it very publicly shames American Zionists of the time for "refus[ing] to campaign against Begin's efforts, or even to expose its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin."
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:13 PM on April 24 [7 favorites]
At no point is there anything indicating this was "intra-Jewish thought" or that it was intended for anything but the entire audience of the newspaper in questions. In fact, it very publicly shames American Zionists of the time for "refus[ing] to campaign against Begin's efforts, or even to expose its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin."
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:13 PM on April 24 [7 favorites]
As we see the government, finance industry, police, and conservative organizations tighten the screws on the various pro-Palestine protesters, let's remember that mass social and student movements in the US have been wrong on so many things: women's rights, voting rights, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, climate change, segregated schools, Black lives, gun control, reproductive freedom, LGBTQ rights, sweatshops ...
OH WAIT. I meant to say *RIGHT* on so many things 😁
Obviously there's antisemitism out there, and anti-state-of-Israel-policy anger which some may choose to interpret as anti-Semitic, but it seems blatantly obvious that 95% of what's going on on these campuses is what we want as a nation: young, idealistic, intelligent leaders of tomorrow mapping the ideals they were taught in school and their communities to the real world, and trying to do better than the last generation. That is:
* The US should not be giving weapons to countries who use them on civilians or to conquer other countries (Ukraine aid = good; Israel aid = bad).
* The US should not reward bad international actors with money or other support unless that money is conditioned on positive change.
* All people are equally entitled to basic human rights.
* Don't be a chicken and not stand up for these things because you're worried about getting the swing votes.
* Same goes for being a chicken and not standing up to billionaire donors or other financial interests.
It's really depressing to see the US cram our international reputation even farther down the toilet (thanks Trump!) over this. We have to get on the right side of history and the world consensus. And yes, I'm still voting for Biden, because UNBELIEVABLY Trump and RFK's positions on the Middle East are even more hawkish and insane. What a world.
posted by caviar2d2 at 1:14 PM on April 24 [11 favorites]
OH WAIT. I meant to say *RIGHT* on so many things 😁
Obviously there's antisemitism out there, and anti-state-of-Israel-policy anger which some may choose to interpret as anti-Semitic, but it seems blatantly obvious that 95% of what's going on on these campuses is what we want as a nation: young, idealistic, intelligent leaders of tomorrow mapping the ideals they were taught in school and their communities to the real world, and trying to do better than the last generation. That is:
* The US should not be giving weapons to countries who use them on civilians or to conquer other countries (Ukraine aid = good; Israel aid = bad).
* The US should not reward bad international actors with money or other support unless that money is conditioned on positive change.
* All people are equally entitled to basic human rights.
* Don't be a chicken and not stand up for these things because you're worried about getting the swing votes.
* Same goes for being a chicken and not standing up to billionaire donors or other financial interests.
It's really depressing to see the US cram our international reputation even farther down the toilet (thanks Trump!) over this. We have to get on the right side of history and the world consensus. And yes, I'm still voting for Biden, because UNBELIEVABLY Trump and RFK's positions on the Middle East are even more hawkish and insane. What a world.
posted by caviar2d2 at 1:14 PM on April 24 [11 favorites]
I do understand it is gross as fuck to read a mefite saying Jews are the real nazis
What I don't understand is this strident insistence on the part of some on conflating the actions of the state of Israel, or of Likudnik extremists, with "Jews". Israel is a supremacist ethnostate founded on ethnic cleansing and presently engaged in genocide. That it happens to claim to be a specifically Jewish supremacist ethnostate is beside the point and not especially relevant to the larger issue of genocide, except insofar as that Jewishness is used as a cudgel to accuse critics of genocide of antisemitism.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:15 PM on April 24 [24 favorites]
What I don't understand is this strident insistence on the part of some on conflating the actions of the state of Israel, or of Likudnik extremists, with "Jews". Israel is a supremacist ethnostate founded on ethnic cleansing and presently engaged in genocide. That it happens to claim to be a specifically Jewish supremacist ethnostate is beside the point and not especially relevant to the larger issue of genocide, except insofar as that Jewishness is used as a cudgel to accuse critics of genocide of antisemitism.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:15 PM on April 24 [24 favorites]
“Judeo-Nazis”
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 1:19 PM on April 24
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 1:19 PM on April 24
Again from the open letter:
Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our time is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the "Freedom Party" (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinistic organization In Palestine.posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:23 PM on April 24 [5 favorites]
Again you're being obtuse. It's gross when non-Jews call Jews "Nazis". Einstein in 1948 is a different thing.
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 1:26 PM on April 24
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 1:26 PM on April 24
Cool, cool. Any more inconvenient Jews you want to eliminate from the discussion?
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:28 PM on April 24 [8 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:28 PM on April 24 [8 favorites]
Press Butt.on to Check, naturally a person recoils from the word: Judeo-Nazi
if your instinct is to stop there, and dismiss the rationale for using such a loaded term, then you must accept what that also means
for my part, today I'm introduced to Yeshayahu Leibowitz and he strikes me as someone who has earned the right to have these opinions and use these words, whether you agree with him or not. I'd go further and say we are failing to learn terrible lessons. this is nothing if not the repetition of terrible crimes.
posted by elkevelvet at 1:28 PM on April 24 [7 favorites]
if your instinct is to stop there, and dismiss the rationale for using such a loaded term, then you must accept what that also means
for my part, today I'm introduced to Yeshayahu Leibowitz and he strikes me as someone who has earned the right to have these opinions and use these words, whether you agree with him or not. I'd go further and say we are failing to learn terrible lessons. this is nothing if not the repetition of terrible crimes.
posted by elkevelvet at 1:28 PM on April 24 [7 favorites]
Yeshayahu Leibowitz did not post on metafilter
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 1:30 PM on April 24
posted by Press Butt.on to Check at 1:30 PM on April 24
Stop trying to gatekeep the public words of Jews who would never have wanted their thoughts kept away from gentiles, whether they be typing in 1948 or 2024.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:32 PM on April 24 [14 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 1:32 PM on April 24 [14 favorites]
It's gross when non-Jews call Jews "Nazis".
When one group of people have marked another group of people for extermination, and made a public call for "breathing room" as a reason for the need to murder children, I do not think that the gross thing is the words we choose to use, no matter how historically resonant those words might be. If those words are particularly historically and morally resonant - if they seem to shock the conscience - I think, however, it is worth wondering whether the things being done should also be shocking the conscience.
posted by corb at 1:45 PM on April 24 [22 favorites]
When one group of people have marked another group of people for extermination, and made a public call for "breathing room" as a reason for the need to murder children, I do not think that the gross thing is the words we choose to use, no matter how historically resonant those words might be. If those words are particularly historically and morally resonant - if they seem to shock the conscience - I think, however, it is worth wondering whether the things being done should also be shocking the conscience.
posted by corb at 1:45 PM on April 24 [22 favorites]
“Judeo-Nazis”
Absurd performative histrionics meant to distract from the issue at hand, which is that Israel is presently committing actual genocide. The comparison is entirely apt when the actions (dehumanisation, ethnic cleansing, deliberate extermination) are functionally indistinguishable.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 1:50 PM on April 24 [8 favorites]
The Zionist nonsense in this thread is Zionist nonsensing too much so here is a link to the BDS Movement's boycott list webpage to check what Zionist products we're boycotting in solidarity with the rapidly growing groups of college protestors.
posted by CPAnarchist at 1:54 PM on April 24 [18 favorites]
posted by CPAnarchist at 1:54 PM on April 24 [18 favorites]
Once again, Israel is not at risk of "ethnic cleansing" this is not a thing, this is some shit
Tell that to the dead in southern Israel. Hamas has explicitly called for the ethnic cleansing of Israelis, and they made a start on it.
The fact that the Israeli government is more effective at being evil doesn't make Hamas not evil - and it doesn't make it less threatening.
I was talking with an Israeli colleague about her experiences under threat in the 1990s. I made a reference to kids throwing rocks and how they weren't a threat. She told me about how one of those rocks smashed the window beside her head and she had glass in her face. She actually moved out of Israel so that her sons would not have to serve in the IDF and commit violence defending settlers. But she was also the target of violence, just as a university student trying to take the bus to her classes.
The 1967 and the 1973 wars weren't started by Israel, and they did intend to end Israel. The fact that they again were not terribly competent at it does not take away from their intentions.
None of this justifies in the least what Israel is currently doing in the Gaza which is a crime against all decency. But the claim that Israelis have not been threatened with ethnic cleansing is itself shit.
The nakba was ethnic cleansing, and it followed ethnic cleansing of Jews - there were pogroms back and forth. No one's hands are clean and no one is safe until we all recognize the right to life.
I wish that I could get the wider Jewish community to be more adamant that there must be a ceasefire in, and that the settlements need to be dismantled. But just denying that there is been threats against the Israeli communities - threats which became real and started the whole damn war - that is ignorant of both the history and the reality of the situation.
There will be no peace, and my heart breaks for it.
posted by jb at 2:10 PM on April 24 [5 favorites]
Tell that to the dead in southern Israel. Hamas has explicitly called for the ethnic cleansing of Israelis, and they made a start on it.
The fact that the Israeli government is more effective at being evil doesn't make Hamas not evil - and it doesn't make it less threatening.
I was talking with an Israeli colleague about her experiences under threat in the 1990s. I made a reference to kids throwing rocks and how they weren't a threat. She told me about how one of those rocks smashed the window beside her head and she had glass in her face. She actually moved out of Israel so that her sons would not have to serve in the IDF and commit violence defending settlers. But she was also the target of violence, just as a university student trying to take the bus to her classes.
The 1967 and the 1973 wars weren't started by Israel, and they did intend to end Israel. The fact that they again were not terribly competent at it does not take away from their intentions.
None of this justifies in the least what Israel is currently doing in the Gaza which is a crime against all decency. But the claim that Israelis have not been threatened with ethnic cleansing is itself shit.
The nakba was ethnic cleansing, and it followed ethnic cleansing of Jews - there were pogroms back and forth. No one's hands are clean and no one is safe until we all recognize the right to life.
I wish that I could get the wider Jewish community to be more adamant that there must be a ceasefire in, and that the settlements need to be dismantled. But just denying that there is been threats against the Israeli communities - threats which became real and started the whole damn war - that is ignorant of both the history and the reality of the situation.
There will be no peace, and my heart breaks for it.
posted by jb at 2:10 PM on April 24 [5 favorites]
The 1967 and the 1973 wars weren't started by Israel, and they did intend to end Israel.
It is a matter of historical fact that the 1967 war was started by an Israeli surprise attack.
posted by rishabguha at 2:25 PM on April 24 [14 favorites]
It is a matter of historical fact that the 1967 war was started by an Israeli surprise attack.
posted by rishabguha at 2:25 PM on April 24 [14 favorites]
Once again, Israel is not at risk of "ethnic cleansing" this is not a thing, this is some shit
But the claim that Israelis have not been threatened with ethnic cleansing is itself shit.
I think you're conflating "at risk" with "threatened". Recall that post 9/11 time in America when the USA was "threatened" with destruction but not actually "at risk"? Recall how that justified millions dead throughout Afghanistan and Iraq? I sure remember that, and I remember how the war hawks liked to mix up the two to justify mass murder.
posted by iamck at 2:27 PM on April 24 [28 favorites]
But the claim that Israelis have not been threatened with ethnic cleansing is itself shit.
I think you're conflating "at risk" with "threatened". Recall that post 9/11 time in America when the USA was "threatened" with destruction but not actually "at risk"? Recall how that justified millions dead throughout Afghanistan and Iraq? I sure remember that, and I remember how the war hawks liked to mix up the two to justify mass murder.
posted by iamck at 2:27 PM on April 24 [28 favorites]
The nakba was ethnic cleansing, and it followed ethnic cleansing of Jews - there were pogroms back and forth
In Europe and Russia, not Palestine, fwiw. Don’t want to give anyone the impression that the nakba was a response to pogroms against Jews in Palestine
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:36 PM on April 24 [10 favorites]
In Europe and Russia, not Palestine, fwiw. Don’t want to give anyone the impression that the nakba was a response to pogroms against Jews in Palestine
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:36 PM on April 24 [10 favorites]
I suspect some people repeat the "it's complicated" language, and generally have the impression that the history of Israeli/Palestinian relations is a convoluted one of wrongs done by one side to the other, and retaliation, and failed attempts at peace processes due to the intransigence of one side (or the other), etc.
This is the lie we've been fed for generations. It's a useful lie. As Norman Finkelstein has said, this is one of the least complicated situations in modern history. There is an oppressor state, and an oppressed group. You may as well refer to the events leading up to the Trail of Tears as complicated. No, it was the western expansion of settler populations and the slaughter of Indigenous peoples, the confiscation of their lands, and the final containment of the remnants of Indigenous populations to reservations. The occasional act of violence by Indigenous fighters against a handful of settler families does not make that 'complicated.'
posted by elkevelvet at 2:57 PM on April 24 [17 favorites]
This is the lie we've been fed for generations. It's a useful lie. As Norman Finkelstein has said, this is one of the least complicated situations in modern history. There is an oppressor state, and an oppressed group. You may as well refer to the events leading up to the Trail of Tears as complicated. No, it was the western expansion of settler populations and the slaughter of Indigenous peoples, the confiscation of their lands, and the final containment of the remnants of Indigenous populations to reservations. The occasional act of violence by Indigenous fighters against a handful of settler families does not make that 'complicated.'
posted by elkevelvet at 2:57 PM on April 24 [17 favorites]
Don’t want to give anyone the impression that the nakba was a response to pogroms against Jews in Palestine
List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine, including the 1929 Hebron Massacre that ended the centuries old Hebron Jewish community.
Again - this is no justification for settlements, bombing Gaza or anything else - but why do we need to deny this history to oppose further ethnic cleansing?
If you look into the lists of the massacres, are not all against Jews - the perpetrators are Jews, Arabs, British soldiers - and the targets were equally mixed.
posted by jb at 3:37 PM on April 24 [3 favorites]
List of killings and massacres in Mandatory Palestine, including the 1929 Hebron Massacre that ended the centuries old Hebron Jewish community.
Again - this is no justification for settlements, bombing Gaza or anything else - but why do we need to deny this history to oppose further ethnic cleansing?
If you look into the lists of the massacres, are not all against Jews - the perpetrators are Jews, Arabs, British soldiers - and the targets were equally mixed.
posted by jb at 3:37 PM on April 24 [3 favorites]
Every time I see "Jewish militants (Irgun)" in that list, it reminds me that the terrorists are now running the country, and have been for large swaths of its existence.
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:48 PM on April 24 [7 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 3:48 PM on April 24 [7 favorites]
Ethnic cleansing has a specific meaning and not all ethnic violence = ethnic cleansing.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:55 PM on April 24 [7 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 3:55 PM on April 24 [7 favorites]
Meanwhile, to drag things back around to the actual topic of the thread: Mike Johnson spoke at Columbia and called for the president of the university to resign, and threatened to call in the National Guard; Netanyahu can't help sticking his snout into US domestic politics; the Texas Department of Public Safety was called in on protesters at UT Austin and made several arrests (including a TV news cameraman), and the campus of Cal Poly Humboldt has been shut down following a student occupation of a campus building.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:17 PM on April 24 [13 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 4:17 PM on April 24 [13 favorites]
I will say, if you ever wonder what side you're on, "Which side are Mike Johnson and Benjamin Netanyahu on?" surely would point you roughly in the right direction.
posted by kensington314 at 4:22 PM on April 24 [19 favorites]
posted by kensington314 at 4:22 PM on April 24 [19 favorites]
Once again, and I will never stop: Israel is not facing "extermination", they are not facing "destruction", they are not facing "genocide".
People are talking about one of the most advanced militaries on the planet, a nuclear power backed by billions of dollars from the entire western world, as though they are just a wittle smol bean. Do you understand how fucking silly this gets after a certain point? Why I can not bring myself to take it even remotely fucking seriously or respectfully?
Israel is not facing any kind of existential threat, they are facing a fucking security risk. Their day to day peace and security is what is being threatened, their "right" to a peaceful daily life while administering apartheid and disproportionate violence and death
is what is being threatened. Be fucking realistic for one second!
It's a security threat! That's the threat they are under, the threat to their daily safety from non-state acting violent militias that are by all accounts a pretty damn predictable response to an apartheid state. Legitimately scary for civilians to live this way for sure! The path their country has chosen however is collective punishment and ethnic cleansing all the way down as the solution to it all, as their way of "managing" this issue, and from there just convince all these suckers and rubes that what they're actually facing is some kind of urgent threat of extinction. Well guess what, they fucking aren't.
posted by windbox at 4:41 PM on April 24 [29 favorites]
People are talking about one of the most advanced militaries on the planet, a nuclear power backed by billions of dollars from the entire western world, as though they are just a wittle smol bean. Do you understand how fucking silly this gets after a certain point? Why I can not bring myself to take it even remotely fucking seriously or respectfully?
Israel is not facing any kind of existential threat, they are facing a fucking security risk. Their day to day peace and security is what is being threatened, their "right" to a peaceful daily life while administering apartheid and disproportionate violence and death
is what is being threatened. Be fucking realistic for one second!
It's a security threat! That's the threat they are under, the threat to their daily safety from non-state acting violent militias that are by all accounts a pretty damn predictable response to an apartheid state. Legitimately scary for civilians to live this way for sure! The path their country has chosen however is collective punishment and ethnic cleansing all the way down as the solution to it all, as their way of "managing" this issue, and from there just convince all these suckers and rubes that what they're actually facing is some kind of urgent threat of extinction. Well guess what, they fucking aren't.
posted by windbox at 4:41 PM on April 24 [29 favorites]
I think a useful thought experiment is: how we would describe it if someone rounded up a bunch of Israelis at gunpoint and forced them into living conditions equivalent to the pre 10/7 Gaza Strip? Now how about the post 10/7 Gaza Strip?
posted by rishabguha at 5:20 PM on April 24 [6 favorites]
posted by rishabguha at 5:20 PM on April 24 [6 favorites]
A thread collecting videos of police action at UT Austin.
posted by audi alteram partem at 5:22 PM on April 24 [6 favorites]
posted by audi alteram partem at 5:22 PM on April 24 [6 favorites]
worth mentioning in the context of US university communities' displays of solidarity with palestinians: US Campaign for the Academic and Cultural Boycott of Israel. if you're in a position to sign and want to discuss what it entails (e.g. it's a boycott of institutions, not individuals) or what some others have done in terms of the ramifications of signing, please feel free to memail me.
safety on campus; let's avoid offenses against perspective.
on that note, an earlier comment reminds me: if you see dishonesty, hypocrisy, hyperbole, or special pleading in this thread, running interference for genocide, and you have anything to spare, the swear jar is just there.
posted by busted_crayons at 5:39 PM on April 24 [9 favorites]
safety on campus; let's avoid offenses against perspective.
on that note, an earlier comment reminds me: if you see dishonesty, hypocrisy, hyperbole, or special pleading in this thread, running interference for genocide, and you have anything to spare, the swear jar is just there.
posted by busted_crayons at 5:39 PM on April 24 [9 favorites]
I think a useful thought experiment is: how we would describe it if someone rounded up a bunch of Israelis at gunpoint and forced them into living conditions equivalent to the pre 10/7 Gaza Strip? Now how about the post 10/7 Gaza Strip?
If you pitch it as a reality show, you won't have to hold anyone at gunpoint to get them to sign up.
posted by mikelieman at 5:53 PM on April 24 [1 favorite]
If you pitch it as a reality show, you won't have to hold anyone at gunpoint to get them to sign up.
posted by mikelieman at 5:53 PM on April 24 [1 favorite]
You know what, yeah, I'm tired of this thread getting choked up with distractions and genocide apologia. Those student journalists at UT Austin are LIT - they just asked cops where all this energy was for the Uvalde shooting, damn.
Also I just sent some money to the bail fund and I could see on the Venmo it is lighting off, payments rolling in every minute. Those kids are going to be out as soon as bail is set.
posted by corb at 5:53 PM on April 24 [32 favorites]
Also I just sent some money to the bail fund and I could see on the Venmo it is lighting off, payments rolling in every minute. Those kids are going to be out as soon as bail is set.
posted by corb at 5:53 PM on April 24 [32 favorites]
I do understand it is gross as fuck to read a mefite saying Jews are the real nazis
What's gross as fuck to ME, personally, is the realization that, while my Rabbi and my Sunday school teachers were sitting down with my classmates and me to have serious, sober discussions about bigotry, senselessness, and genocide, a bunch of other American Jews were apparently being fed a line of propaganda that makes the Pledge of Allegiance look politically sophisticated by comparison.
Because the shit I learned as a child wasn't about recognizing Jewish identity as a simultaneous source of nationalist Israeli pride and never-ending persecution complex. Yes, we talked about Judaism as a minority religion, and we talked about Jewish history as a series of minority statuses in every country we found ourselves in... and then we focused on the broader, more universal issues.
We talked about the reasons why a human might stop caring to see another human as... well, human.
We talked about nationalism, tribalism, and the horrors that ensue when your focus on yourself, your family, or your country leads you to decide that your chosen group should come out ahead. No matter the costs.
We listened to Holocaust survivors speak. And we also listened to old German men from families who sheltered their Jewish neighbors from the Nazis. We listened to them talk about what their non-Jewish neighbors were like. We listened to them describe what Nazis sound like when they're talking to you like they assume you already agree with them.
We talked about Never Forget, and Never Again, like they meant more than just preventing another attack against Jews. We talked about it like the duty of every Jewish person alive, as of the 20th century, was to ensure that horrors like this would never happen to anyone ever again. Like our duty was, not just to one another, but to the world.
Because we'd all seen what happens when "just to one another" is taken to its extreme. That was the fucking POINT. The survivors and the shelterers all spoke to us of a time when one people separated themselves from another people, called themselves the more deserving race, and decided it was the dreaded others who were holding them back.
So what I think is pretty fucking GROSS, if you ask me, is when people invoke the admittedly-very-shitty-and-scary rise of anti-semitism as a way of claiming that the shit we American Jews suffer is REMOTELY FUCKING EQUIVALENT to mass graves, to literally hundreds of child amputations, to hospitals and school systems systematically targeted and destroyed.
I find it a little DISGUSTING, if we're being COMPLETELY HONEST, that anyone who was raised as Jewish as I was could look at the unfolding situation and think that the appropriate response is to say "Shame on you" to the people who dare to feel horrified and outraged by what Israel is doing in the name of my fucking people.
I find it UNBELIEVABLY self-centered when people invoke my religious fucking upbringing while invalidating the Jewish faith of every protestor at Columbia, every American Jew horrified by their nation supporting an open-and-shut genocide. I find it REPREHENSIBLE that so many of Israel's sympathizers are invoking purity tests for "what it means to be Jewish" at a time like this. Beyond that, I find it appalling that Jewishness is being invoked as a gate at ALL, when every living goddamn human being has, not only the right, but the DUTY to call these atrocities what they are.
If Jewishness means standing in solidarity against genocidal evil, then every person speaking out against Israel's despicable crimes is more a sibling to me than every so-called Jewish person who thinks their identity gives them the right to shut down voices crying out in anguish.
And this didn't start on October 7th. Israel has been committing atrocities since the day I was born. We have each of us had plenty of time to see what Israel is doing, was doing, has always done. We had no excuses not to see. We had no justifications for looking away. Now, we have less than none.
Genocide is fucking genocide. Know what's grosser than genocide? Literally nothing. How can you grow up Jewish and think that anything, anything, is more central to your upbringing and your faith than defying wanton slaughters of the powerless? How can you observe Passover and not realize that the entire holiday revolves around the horrors of imperial might and systematic violence?
When Moses spoke to the Egyptians, as a man who'd been thought to be Egyptian all his life, they abruptly ceased to see a citizen, because Moses was nothing more than a Jew. How can you possibly let someone's identity determine their credibility as a human being? And when Moses spoke out against Egyptian treatment of the Jewish people, how many Egyptians bristled, to hear a Jewish man criticize things done in their name? How many bristled as if their "name" was something flesh-and-blood, something that could be hurt, something that could die? How many were upset by that, rather than by the realization that terrible things had been done in their name, and signed in blood with the name of their people?
So you don't want Israelis to be likened to Nazis? What's worse: that we call them Nazis now, or the possibility that, 80 years from now, "Israeli" will be the new epithet that people use to designate murderous human monsters? The name hardly matters. I was raised Jewish, but as a Jew I was raised to believe that no creed comes before human dignity. As the one who freed the enslaved from their oppressors said, "Thou shalt have no other God but me."
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 6:02 PM on April 24 [92 favorites]
What's gross as fuck to ME, personally, is the realization that, while my Rabbi and my Sunday school teachers were sitting down with my classmates and me to have serious, sober discussions about bigotry, senselessness, and genocide, a bunch of other American Jews were apparently being fed a line of propaganda that makes the Pledge of Allegiance look politically sophisticated by comparison.
Because the shit I learned as a child wasn't about recognizing Jewish identity as a simultaneous source of nationalist Israeli pride and never-ending persecution complex. Yes, we talked about Judaism as a minority religion, and we talked about Jewish history as a series of minority statuses in every country we found ourselves in... and then we focused on the broader, more universal issues.
We talked about the reasons why a human might stop caring to see another human as... well, human.
We talked about nationalism, tribalism, and the horrors that ensue when your focus on yourself, your family, or your country leads you to decide that your chosen group should come out ahead. No matter the costs.
We listened to Holocaust survivors speak. And we also listened to old German men from families who sheltered their Jewish neighbors from the Nazis. We listened to them talk about what their non-Jewish neighbors were like. We listened to them describe what Nazis sound like when they're talking to you like they assume you already agree with them.
We talked about Never Forget, and Never Again, like they meant more than just preventing another attack against Jews. We talked about it like the duty of every Jewish person alive, as of the 20th century, was to ensure that horrors like this would never happen to anyone ever again. Like our duty was, not just to one another, but to the world.
Because we'd all seen what happens when "just to one another" is taken to its extreme. That was the fucking POINT. The survivors and the shelterers all spoke to us of a time when one people separated themselves from another people, called themselves the more deserving race, and decided it was the dreaded others who were holding them back.
So what I think is pretty fucking GROSS, if you ask me, is when people invoke the admittedly-very-shitty-and-scary rise of anti-semitism as a way of claiming that the shit we American Jews suffer is REMOTELY FUCKING EQUIVALENT to mass graves, to literally hundreds of child amputations, to hospitals and school systems systematically targeted and destroyed.
I find it a little DISGUSTING, if we're being COMPLETELY HONEST, that anyone who was raised as Jewish as I was could look at the unfolding situation and think that the appropriate response is to say "Shame on you" to the people who dare to feel horrified and outraged by what Israel is doing in the name of my fucking people.
I find it UNBELIEVABLY self-centered when people invoke my religious fucking upbringing while invalidating the Jewish faith of every protestor at Columbia, every American Jew horrified by their nation supporting an open-and-shut genocide. I find it REPREHENSIBLE that so many of Israel's sympathizers are invoking purity tests for "what it means to be Jewish" at a time like this. Beyond that, I find it appalling that Jewishness is being invoked as a gate at ALL, when every living goddamn human being has, not only the right, but the DUTY to call these atrocities what they are.
If Jewishness means standing in solidarity against genocidal evil, then every person speaking out against Israel's despicable crimes is more a sibling to me than every so-called Jewish person who thinks their identity gives them the right to shut down voices crying out in anguish.
And this didn't start on October 7th. Israel has been committing atrocities since the day I was born. We have each of us had plenty of time to see what Israel is doing, was doing, has always done. We had no excuses not to see. We had no justifications for looking away. Now, we have less than none.
Genocide is fucking genocide. Know what's grosser than genocide? Literally nothing. How can you grow up Jewish and think that anything, anything, is more central to your upbringing and your faith than defying wanton slaughters of the powerless? How can you observe Passover and not realize that the entire holiday revolves around the horrors of imperial might and systematic violence?
When Moses spoke to the Egyptians, as a man who'd been thought to be Egyptian all his life, they abruptly ceased to see a citizen, because Moses was nothing more than a Jew. How can you possibly let someone's identity determine their credibility as a human being? And when Moses spoke out against Egyptian treatment of the Jewish people, how many Egyptians bristled, to hear a Jewish man criticize things done in their name? How many bristled as if their "name" was something flesh-and-blood, something that could be hurt, something that could die? How many were upset by that, rather than by the realization that terrible things had been done in their name, and signed in blood with the name of their people?
So you don't want Israelis to be likened to Nazis? What's worse: that we call them Nazis now, or the possibility that, 80 years from now, "Israeli" will be the new epithet that people use to designate murderous human monsters? The name hardly matters. I was raised Jewish, but as a Jew I was raised to believe that no creed comes before human dignity. As the one who freed the enslaved from their oppressors said, "Thou shalt have no other God but me."
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 6:02 PM on April 24 [92 favorites]
From 3 weeks ago, but useful to note how things have been even outside the CU flashpoint: US college becomes first American institution to end study abroad programme in Israel -
Student activists say Pitzer College is refusing to admit the move was linked to sustained pressure to sever ties to an Israeli university
posted by cendawanita at 7:47 PM on April 24 [5 favorites]
Student activists say Pitzer College is refusing to admit the move was linked to sustained pressure to sever ties to an Israeli university
posted by cendawanita at 7:47 PM on April 24 [5 favorites]
And from Haaretz, how their academics are feeling the heat: 'I Won't Work With You. You're Committing Genocide': Israeli Academia Faces an Unprecedented Global Boycott -
Canceled invitations to conferences, a freeze on hiring Israelis at overseas institutions, rejection of scientific articles on political grounds, disruption of lectures abroad – Israeli scholars from various disciplines paint a painful picture of the foreign boycott that has afflicted them since the war broke out in Gaza (ungated)
Ymmv on how you take the language of the reporting but there are testimonials so it seems worth sharing. I was just waiting on certain analytical threads to be drawn to no avail otherwise, when reading.
posted by cendawanita at 7:51 PM on April 24 [12 favorites]
Canceled invitations to conferences, a freeze on hiring Israelis at overseas institutions, rejection of scientific articles on political grounds, disruption of lectures abroad – Israeli scholars from various disciplines paint a painful picture of the foreign boycott that has afflicted them since the war broke out in Gaza (ungated)
Ymmv on how you take the language of the reporting but there are testimonials so it seems worth sharing. I was just waiting on certain analytical threads to be drawn to no avail otherwise, when reading.
posted by cendawanita at 7:51 PM on April 24 [12 favorites]
Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted, as usual, fucking nails it.
Thank you. Flagged as fantastic.
posted by flabdablet at 8:38 PM on April 24 [6 favorites]
Thank you. Flagged as fantastic.
posted by flabdablet at 8:38 PM on April 24 [6 favorites]
Catching up on arrests happening/that happened in Texas and elsewhere... I mean, my country isn't exactly known to have any particularly robust democratic institutions or customs, but the USA will really burn it all to the ground huh, and for what, it's not even your war.
posted by cendawanita at 9:23 PM on April 24 [8 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:23 PM on April 24 [8 favorites]
and for what, it's not even your war.
seems rather than inflammatory, what are people protesting again oh that's right. of course you're right it's not our war so draw a historical parallel to Vietnam War people were protesting it in 1963, wasn't our war then.
my country isn't exactly known to have any particularly robust democratic institutions or well, consider the subject matter as a reason for students to protest doesn't quite exist yeah? they seem to enjoy democratic protests in the United States which I applaud.
posted by clavdivs at 10:10 PM on April 24 [1 favorite]
seems rather than inflammatory, what are people protesting again oh that's right. of course you're right it's not our war so draw a historical parallel to Vietnam War people were protesting it in 1963, wasn't our war then.
my country isn't exactly known to have any particularly robust democratic institutions or well, consider the subject matter as a reason for students to protest doesn't quite exist yeah? they seem to enjoy democratic protests in the United States which I applaud.
posted by clavdivs at 10:10 PM on April 24 [1 favorite]
To be fair, it's because it's an allowed political subject to protest even though technically illegal (we're heavily protest-averse unless it's politically acceptable, and what's notable here is that socialists were running this one ie not a government or establishment party and worse, from the left, so just this once, we're okay with the communists), so when the owner of the car park where the encampment finally settled on just did a shruggie and said, it's fine, it's my private property and no one's using the space much since it's holiday season, the fig leaf was accepted and the sit-in continued. Crucially the organisers never encouraged it to grow beyond the established terms. I'm glad for it, but yeah, that's the cultural dimension backstory. We clock in for our protests, we clock out, it's all very professional. Wildcat anything would've gotten the boot.
posted by cendawanita at 10:21 PM on April 24 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 10:21 PM on April 24 [2 favorites]
The fact that the Israeli government is more effective at being evil doesn't make Hamas not evil - and it doesn't make it less threatening.
...It does make it less threatening, actually. Sort of by definition.
posted by Gadarene at 2:00 AM on April 25 [19 favorites]
...It does make it less threatening, actually. Sort of by definition.
posted by Gadarene at 2:00 AM on April 25 [19 favorites]
I suspect that even more than in the 1960's the modern American police force views universities as evil and students as enemies. The Austin police department infamously hates the entire city and has taken great care to assure that all residents of Austin know that the police view them as an enemy population in need of subjugation rather than a population to be served.
The NYPD is equally infamous for being awful and viewing themselves more as an occupying force than a protective force serving the population, and there's every reason to think they are especially hateful towards the students at Columbia.
Plus the Christian right in America is 100% aligned with the Jewish right in Israel on the topic of Jewish supremacy and manifest destiny WRT Israel out to its Biblical borders.
The American Christian right is deeply antisemitic and hates Jews, but believe that Jews being the undisputed bosses of Israel (and ideally all Jews worldwide forced to move to Israel) is a necessary precondition for Armageddon and the end of the world.
For anyone wondering why Mike Johnson seems especially vicious towards protests against Israeli genocide, that's the explanation. He is a true believer in a form of Christianity that says Jeebus can't come save him from dying until Israel finishes killing all the Palestinians. After that, per Johnson's theology, Jesus will kick off the end of the world by smiting Israel and killing all the Jews so they can be sent to burn in hell for eternity because they aren't Christian. So, you know, he's not exactly motivated by a real affection for Israel.
My point is that for many of the right wingers involved in the assault on American universities this goes beyond simple culture war hatred of eduction. It's a holy cause for them, a concrete way they can accelerate the return of Jesus, the end of the world, and their own personal bodily ascension into Heaven so they can escape death.
I strongly suspect soon we'll see even more reports of extreme police brutality than we normally do at protests.
posted by sotonohito at 7:34 AM on April 25 [16 favorites]
The NYPD is equally infamous for being awful and viewing themselves more as an occupying force than a protective force serving the population, and there's every reason to think they are especially hateful towards the students at Columbia.
Plus the Christian right in America is 100% aligned with the Jewish right in Israel on the topic of Jewish supremacy and manifest destiny WRT Israel out to its Biblical borders.
The American Christian right is deeply antisemitic and hates Jews, but believe that Jews being the undisputed bosses of Israel (and ideally all Jews worldwide forced to move to Israel) is a necessary precondition for Armageddon and the end of the world.
For anyone wondering why Mike Johnson seems especially vicious towards protests against Israeli genocide, that's the explanation. He is a true believer in a form of Christianity that says Jeebus can't come save him from dying until Israel finishes killing all the Palestinians. After that, per Johnson's theology, Jesus will kick off the end of the world by smiting Israel and killing all the Jews so they can be sent to burn in hell for eternity because they aren't Christian. So, you know, he's not exactly motivated by a real affection for Israel.
My point is that for many of the right wingers involved in the assault on American universities this goes beyond simple culture war hatred of eduction. It's a holy cause for them, a concrete way they can accelerate the return of Jesus, the end of the world, and their own personal bodily ascension into Heaven so they can escape death.
I strongly suspect soon we'll see even more reports of extreme police brutality than we normally do at protests.
posted by sotonohito at 7:34 AM on April 25 [16 favorites]
To provide context to the protests in UT Austin... there were protests at other colleges around Texas too, including one in Houston. Yet the state sent DPS troopers from Houston to Austin to stop a nonviolent protest that was scheduled to include a pizza party, a teach-in and an art workshop. The riot police showing up with hundreds of rounds strapped to their chest is part of a political ploy for state politicians to show that they are cracking down on Austin. Not just Austin the city, but Austin the concept, and the concept of Texas as a purple state where dem voters are mostly disenfranchised. It was a photo opportunity to show donors how authoritatrian Texas is. These photos will be used alongside photos of the border wall to get more conservative money flowing into Texas.
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:36 AM on April 25 [24 favorites]
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:36 AM on April 25 [24 favorites]
“Some thoughts about the Columbia University protests,” Margaret Sullivan, American Crisis, 25 April 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 7:37 AM on April 25 [1 favorite]
posted by ob1quixote at 7:37 AM on April 25 [1 favorite]
Its just so hard for people to decide which side to be on. On the one hand, you have students and activists protesting an ongoing genocide, on the other hand, you have the police and the far-right.
The fact that university presidents and the democrats in both the executive and legislative branch are almost completely aligning themselves with the far-right here tells you all you need to know. This is not an umambiguous or potentially bad thing---this is an ongoing genocide. Liberal institutions have chosen their friends.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:38 AM on April 25 [21 favorites]
The fact that university presidents and the democrats in both the executive and legislative branch are almost completely aligning themselves with the far-right here tells you all you need to know. This is not an umambiguous or potentially bad thing---this is an ongoing genocide. Liberal institutions have chosen their friends.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:38 AM on April 25 [21 favorites]
That Margaret Sullivan piece is reasonable but its telling how deeply entrenched the pro-Israel narrative is that this sentence was apparently written in good faith:
"Another demanded that people remember 1948 — the year of Israel’s founding in which many Palestinians fled or were displaced from their homes."
Israel was founded! People fled their homes! Some 'were displaced'!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:42 AM on April 25 [17 favorites]
"Another demanded that people remember 1948 — the year of Israel’s founding in which many Palestinians fled or were displaced from their homes."
Israel was founded! People fled their homes! Some 'were displaced'!
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:42 AM on April 25 [17 favorites]
As someone on BlueSky aptly put it:
the Kent State massacre was metabolized as a tragedy in history books, but it was cheered by reactionaries at the time. the fantasy of delivering violence to naive young liberals is foundational to the modern right. they never learned the lesson of Kent State because they never stopped supporting it
And Kent State is, of course, the dictionary definition of unjust violence against college protestors but far, far from the only one. Jackson State and People's Park, among many others, say hello. The cop-pepper-spraying-seated-protestors-in-a-line photo that Cal worked so hard to suppress beckons.
What's remarkable about this particular set of crackdowns is how rapidly they moved from "well, this is an annoying disruption" to "break some skulls and arrest and expel these Hamas-lovers" without, well, evidence that the protests were turning violent, putting lives/safety at risk or endangering public welfare. I mean, I expected Trumpoids on social media to immediately bay for blood and demand swift and blinding violence, but these are so-called liberal enclaves whose administrations are shifting gears quickly.
Kind of reminds me of the BLM protests, in a way. A vulnerable population sticking its necks out to be heard attracts those with a compulsion to bite those necks and remind them of their proper place, and not all of those are Archie Bunker conservatives.
posted by delfin at 8:03 AM on April 25 [29 favorites]
the Kent State massacre was metabolized as a tragedy in history books, but it was cheered by reactionaries at the time. the fantasy of delivering violence to naive young liberals is foundational to the modern right. they never learned the lesson of Kent State because they never stopped supporting it
And Kent State is, of course, the dictionary definition of unjust violence against college protestors but far, far from the only one. Jackson State and People's Park, among many others, say hello. The cop-pepper-spraying-seated-protestors-in-a-line photo that Cal worked so hard to suppress beckons.
What's remarkable about this particular set of crackdowns is how rapidly they moved from "well, this is an annoying disruption" to "break some skulls and arrest and expel these Hamas-lovers" without, well, evidence that the protests were turning violent, putting lives/safety at risk or endangering public welfare. I mean, I expected Trumpoids on social media to immediately bay for blood and demand swift and blinding violence, but these are so-called liberal enclaves whose administrations are shifting gears quickly.
Kind of reminds me of the BLM protests, in a way. A vulnerable population sticking its necks out to be heard attracts those with a compulsion to bite those necks and remind them of their proper place, and not all of those are Archie Bunker conservatives.
posted by delfin at 8:03 AM on April 25 [29 favorites]
Texas Gov. Abbott faces backlash after mass arrest at UT Austin pro-Palestine protest
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:41 AM on April 25 [4 favorites]
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:41 AM on April 25 [4 favorites]
I'm continually astonished at how every thread on the Palestinian genocide on this site turns into rebutting the exact same boring Zionist arguments and genocide apologia over and over again, rather than mobilizing action or sharing resources and education around the ongoing genocide the US government is bankrolling.
That is, of course, the whole point--the Zionist strategy of getting people to rebut the exact same fucking talking points that never made any sense in the first place and having to prove that they're not terroristic, anti-Semitic monsters every time they breathe.
It's like if every thread on racism in US was just a back and forth on whether racism is real and whether POC are actually oppressed or is reverse discrimination a thing and prove that you actually are not a fan of white genocide.
What's the point? I genuinely don't get it. The hardliners who've decided that being against an ongoing genocide makes you a horrible monster and saying "from the river to the sea" is a massive crime against humanity are clearly never going to come around. Why are they still indulged like this, by their arguments being taken seriously and rebutted in the exact same terms every single time? It's exhausting and incredibly tiresome.
posted by lizard2590 at 9:47 AM on April 25 [23 favorites]
That is, of course, the whole point--the Zionist strategy of getting people to rebut the exact same fucking talking points that never made any sense in the first place and having to prove that they're not terroristic, anti-Semitic monsters every time they breathe.
It's like if every thread on racism in US was just a back and forth on whether racism is real and whether POC are actually oppressed or is reverse discrimination a thing and prove that you actually are not a fan of white genocide.
What's the point? I genuinely don't get it. The hardliners who've decided that being against an ongoing genocide makes you a horrible monster and saying "from the river to the sea" is a massive crime against humanity are clearly never going to come around. Why are they still indulged like this, by their arguments being taken seriously and rebutted in the exact same terms every single time? It's exhausting and incredibly tiresome.
posted by lizard2590 at 9:47 AM on April 25 [23 favorites]
> mass social and student movements in the US
I was tangentially/spectatorially involved in one you missed:
25 Anti-Apartheid Demonstrators Arrested
https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/how-students-helped-end-apartheid
posted by torokunai at 9:56 AM on April 25 [2 favorites]
I was tangentially/spectatorially involved in one you missed:
25 Anti-Apartheid Demonstrators Arrested
https://www.universityofcalifornia.edu/news/how-students-helped-end-apartheid
posted by torokunai at 9:56 AM on April 25 [2 favorites]
Why are they still indulged like this
Until relatively recently, it was actually an official moderation policy on this very site that any criticism of Israel was to be regarded as de facto antisemitic, and people making such criticism would be told they weren't allowed to participate in any of the (relatively few) threads related to the issue. Not everyone seems to've gotten the memo that there was evidently a policy change; what you're seeing is basically working the refs.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:04 AM on April 25 [20 favorites]
Until relatively recently, it was actually an official moderation policy on this very site that any criticism of Israel was to be regarded as de facto antisemitic, and people making such criticism would be told they weren't allowed to participate in any of the (relatively few) threads related to the issue. Not everyone seems to've gotten the memo that there was evidently a policy change; what you're seeing is basically working the refs.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:04 AM on April 25 [20 favorites]
“Manufacturing dissent,” Don Moynihan, Can We Still Govern?, 25 April 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 10:18 AM on April 25 [2 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 10:18 AM on April 25 [2 favorites]
“Now The Students Are ‘Terrorists,’” Spencer Ackerman, FOREVER WARS, 25 April 2024
Politicians and administrators are playing the 9/11 Era hits against students protesting a genocide—and want so badly to kill them.posted by ob1quixote at 10:23 AM on April 25 [5 favorites]
This, from an Austin journalist on Twitter, made me laugh:
NEW: Both prosecutors and magistrate judges at the jail reviewed probable cause affidavits for arrested UT protesters and found that they didn't meet the lowest standard to go forward, I'm told. Police may continue to investigate, however, and possibly resubmit new charges.
So did the reply from an Atlanta journalist:
It's kind of difficult to prosecute a professor for trespassing on the campus where they teach
posted by mediareport at 10:29 AM on April 25 [18 favorites]
NEW: Both prosecutors and magistrate judges at the jail reviewed probable cause affidavits for arrested UT protesters and found that they didn't meet the lowest standard to go forward, I'm told. Police may continue to investigate, however, and possibly resubmit new charges.
So did the reply from an Atlanta journalist:
It's kind of difficult to prosecute a professor for trespassing on the campus where they teach
posted by mediareport at 10:29 AM on April 25 [18 favorites]
The lawsuits are gonna be fun to watch.
posted by mediareport at 10:31 AM on April 25 [2 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 10:31 AM on April 25 [2 favorites]
"Iran has their military proxies like Hezbollah, and Iran has their campus proxies like these groups, like Students for Justice in Palestine, Jewish Voice for Peace." -Jonathan Greenblatt, Anti-Defamation League
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:38 AM on April 25 [3 favorites]
posted by Glegrinof the Pig-Man at 10:38 AM on April 25 [3 favorites]
Anyway, someone rounded up a list of bail funds for the protesters. Send any new ones to JordanUhl.
posted by toastyk at 10:46 AM on April 25 [7 favorites]
posted by toastyk at 10:46 AM on April 25 [7 favorites]
Really loved this USC dad
https://twitter.com/sunraysunray/status/1783503350425641071?s=42
posted by kensington314 at 10:59 AM on April 25 [6 favorites]
https://twitter.com/sunraysunray/status/1783503350425641071?s=42
posted by kensington314 at 10:59 AM on April 25 [6 favorites]
Here this Emory U chair of the philosophy dept being hauled off for . . . umm . . . trespassing at her job?
https://twitter.com/PatrickQuinnTV/status/1783532600637681964
posted by kensington314 at 11:13 AM on April 25 [10 favorites]
https://twitter.com/PatrickQuinnTV/status/1783532600637681964
posted by kensington314 at 11:13 AM on April 25 [10 favorites]
Tear gas, assault rifles, and possibly rubber bullets at Emory. Anything but let an encampment go up, right?
posted by corb at 11:22 AM on April 25 [9 favorites]
posted by corb at 11:22 AM on April 25 [9 favorites]
Capital has been waiting for this moment. This may not be THE moment, but cop city atlanta doesn't exist for no reason, and two dozen plus other cop cities going up around the country are going up for a reason.
posted by CPAnarchist at 11:25 AM on April 25 [17 favorites]
posted by CPAnarchist at 11:25 AM on April 25 [17 favorites]
Video of the police tazing an undergraduate while they are lying on the ground already in custody.
posted by corb at 12:52 PM on April 25 [11 favorites]
posted by corb at 12:52 PM on April 25 [11 favorites]
Article from the Emory student paper, which includes photo of person being tased.
“There were about … 35 peaceful protesters drinking coffee, eating snacks, chanting on the lawn,” Gough said. “They were absolutely non-violent. This is an institution of learning and dialogue. That’s exactly what they were participating in.”posted by audi alteram partem at 12:56 PM on April 25 [7 favorites]
did not think that non violent protests against a genocide would have the side effect of unleashing full police state violence... a reminder that eventually that'll come for anyone who fights the status quo (and also a reminder that non violent resistance has not worked historically unless the police/military either stay out of it or side with the protestors)
posted by kokaku at 1:16 PM on April 25 [7 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 1:16 PM on April 25 [7 favorites]
(I think this is the link you meant to share, corb.)
What a glorious day it must be for cops around the nation bravely taking on these protestors!
I imagine these officers, modern day paladins that they are, grew up being regaled by their grandfathers about the good ol' days of bustin' the heads of hippies during the 60s and 70s, and dreaming of a day when they too -- with their riot shields, long guns, tasers, and tear gas -- could bravely attack peacefully protesting unarmed young adults in order to show them the glory of the freedom we enjoy in the United States of America.
posted by lord_wolf at 1:24 PM on April 25 [11 favorites]
What a glorious day it must be for cops around the nation bravely taking on these protestors!
I imagine these officers, modern day paladins that they are, grew up being regaled by their grandfathers about the good ol' days of bustin' the heads of hippies during the 60s and 70s, and dreaming of a day when they too -- with their riot shields, long guns, tasers, and tear gas -- could bravely attack peacefully protesting unarmed young adults in order to show them the glory of the freedom we enjoy in the United States of America.
posted by lord_wolf at 1:24 PM on April 25 [11 favorites]
Goddamnit, yes, thanks, lord_wolf, I don't know what happened there. I think I'm just exhausted.
posted by corb at 1:29 PM on April 25 [3 favorites]
posted by corb at 1:29 PM on April 25 [3 favorites]
Here's a professor being arrested literally for just asking a cop "What the fuck are you doing?" when he was brutalizing one of her students.
posted by corb at 1:36 PM on April 25 [19 favorites]
posted by corb at 1:36 PM on April 25 [19 favorites]
No administrator who invited, approved or allowed police presence to quell peaceful protests and brutalize students on their campus should ever again be allowed to hold any position in higher education. Not a single one.
What's happening on these campuses is a profound betrayal of both the duty of care owed to their students and to the principles on which their universities were founded.
The only backward, twisted favor they've granted their students is a live demonstration of Masha Gessen's third rule: Institutions will not save you.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 1:57 PM on April 25 [31 favorites]
What's happening on these campuses is a profound betrayal of both the duty of care owed to their students and to the principles on which their universities were founded.
The only backward, twisted favor they've granted their students is a live demonstration of Masha Gessen's third rule: Institutions will not save you.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 1:57 PM on April 25 [31 favorites]
There’s the violent threat to Jewish (and all other) students everyone was talking about.
posted by Artw at 1:59 PM on April 25 [13 favorites]
posted by Artw at 1:59 PM on April 25 [13 favorites]
I was at (witnessing, not participating in) the protests at USC yesterday. They called in the fucking LAPD on what was essentially a drum circle.
posted by mr_roboto at 2:18 PM on April 25 [17 favorites]
posted by mr_roboto at 2:18 PM on April 25 [17 favorites]
“Following Violent Police Crackdown of Anti-War Protests, Campus and Building Occupations Spread,” Staff, It's Going Down, 23 April 2024 (Updated 25 April 2024)
posted by ob1quixote at 2:31 PM on April 25 [9 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 2:31 PM on April 25 [9 favorites]
Cop CIty was the declaration of war. This is the first battle.
posted by ob1quixote at 2:33 PM on April 25 [6 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 2:33 PM on April 25 [6 favorites]
I'm keeping an eye on Northwestern's protest today thanks to a liveblogging page from the The Daily Northwestern. At time of writing, things remain peaceful.
The protest organizers have promulgated a People's Resolution.
posted by ursus_comiter at 2:38 PM on April 25 [7 favorites]
The protest organizers have promulgated a People's Resolution.
posted by ursus_comiter at 2:38 PM on April 25 [7 favorites]
"The University of Southern California canceled its main commencement ceremony, citing new safety measures put in place in the days since the Los Angeles school has been rocked by student-led protests against the war in Gaza."
What war, Washington Post writer??
posted by torokunai at 2:58 PM on April 25 [9 favorites]
What war, Washington Post writer??
posted by torokunai at 2:58 PM on April 25 [9 favorites]
We've always been at war with Eastasia Gaza, and when there are no Gazans left in Gaza, we'll designate a new Gaza and the war will continue.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 3:02 PM on April 25 [4 favorites]
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 3:02 PM on April 25 [4 favorites]
The Daily Princetonian's reporting considers just how viewpoint neutral Princeton's alleged protest policies are:
In a column published by The Daily Princetonian on April 25, University President Christoper Eisgruber ’83 argued that student protesters should consider “time, place, and manner” of protest. “These time, place, and manner regulations are viewpoint-neutral and content-neutral,” he wrote. “They apply to any protest or event, regardless of which side they take or what issues they raise.”posted by audi alteram partem at 3:12 PM on April 25 [7 favorites]
....
The University has not always barred students from campus following an arrest. After Larry Giberson ’23 was arrested in March 2023 for coordinating a “heave-ho” effort at the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021, he was able to remain on campus and complete the spring semester of his senior year. Giberson received his diploma at graduation and told the ‘Prince’ at the time that the University had not contacted him about his criminal case.
Police snipers on the roof at Ohio State watching the encampment
posted by Artw at 4:25 PM on April 25 [9 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:25 PM on April 25 [9 favorites]
I couldn't possibly even decide which links are worth sharing, thanks to those who are. There's just so much unreal content. I want to link the "can you tell the philosophy department I've been arrested, I'm the chair..." lady but I don't want the focus to be on academics instead of students.
Has Biden said anything yet? Lots of people pairing this with the Tik-Tok ban as effective evidence of an active decision that he doesn't want to be president next year.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:20 PM on April 25 [13 favorites]
Has Biden said anything yet? Lots of people pairing this with the Tik-Tok ban as effective evidence of an active decision that he doesn't want to be president next year.
posted by Audreynachrome at 5:20 PM on April 25 [13 favorites]
Police snipers on the roof at Ohio State watching the encampment
all this stuff i'm seeing has strong september 2023 birzeit university kidnappings of students by the occupying army energy.
posted by busted_crayons at 5:42 PM on April 25 [5 favorites]
all this stuff i'm seeing has strong september 2023 birzeit university kidnappings of students by the occupying army energy.
posted by busted_crayons at 5:42 PM on April 25 [5 favorites]
Students at Emory are now occupying the School of Theology in response to Theology students arrests, hearing that Atlanta PD is rolling up to brutalize them again. Unfortunately it is night so news cameras have likely gone home.
posted by corb at 6:17 PM on April 25 [6 favorites]
posted by corb at 6:17 PM on April 25 [6 favorites]
Lordy be, before I read 300+ posts on this subject can we all agree that an individual actor has overstepped their bounds?
posted by coolxcool=rad at 6:33 PM on April 25
posted by coolxcool=rad at 6:33 PM on April 25
To protect rapists, universities are notorious for claiming the local police have no jurisdiction on their campus — but now the schools are hopping right into bed with the dirtiest cops to suppress peaceful student protesters.
Recall the national guard wasn't even immediately sent during the Jan 6th white supremacist terrorist attacks, and actual Insurrectionists storming the Capitol and killing cops were just allowed to fly home. They also didn’t call the national guard in for Charlottesville when non-students came to protest using anti-Semitic chants.
And this time they can't spin this as “Antifa!” or “those violent Black Lives Matter rioters!” Because now, it’s quite literally the whitest, richest, most privileged young faction of this country putting their asses on the line, and with all of the receipts.
I saw a comment that basically said “American History shows us, time and again, if you have to oppose student protests you know you are on the wrong side.” Seems the students are going to be up 6-0: Civil Rights, Vietnam, Feminism, Apartheid, BLM, and hopefully Gaza, too.
posted by edithkeeler at 6:43 PM on April 25 [21 favorites]
Recall the national guard wasn't even immediately sent during the Jan 6th white supremacist terrorist attacks, and actual Insurrectionists storming the Capitol and killing cops were just allowed to fly home. They also didn’t call the national guard in for Charlottesville when non-students came to protest using anti-Semitic chants.
And this time they can't spin this as “Antifa!” or “those violent Black Lives Matter rioters!” Because now, it’s quite literally the whitest, richest, most privileged young faction of this country putting their asses on the line, and with all of the receipts.
I saw a comment that basically said “American History shows us, time and again, if you have to oppose student protests you know you are on the wrong side.” Seems the students are going to be up 6-0: Civil Rights, Vietnam, Feminism, Apartheid, BLM, and hopefully Gaza, too.
posted by edithkeeler at 6:43 PM on April 25 [21 favorites]
What war, Washington Post writer?
They called it "the war on the Plains" in the 1860's when the US Cavalry was committing atrocities against Native Americans, too.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 7:23 PM on April 25 [4 favorites]
And this time they can't spin this as “Antifa!” or “those violent Black Lives Matter rioters!” Because now, it’s quite literally the whitest, richest, most privileged young faction of this country putting their asses on the line, and with all of the receipts.
idk, a Fox News headline today was saying the protestors are acting on behalf of Iran. A comment further up in the thread suggests the same. It seems like they are very glad to spin this as: the whitest, richest, most privileged young faction of this country is being manipulated by Iranian interests (in addition to all the accusations of rampant antisemitism, etc. etc.).
posted by knotty knots at 7:58 PM on April 25 [2 favorites]
idk, a Fox News headline today was saying the protestors are acting on behalf of Iran. A comment further up in the thread suggests the same. It seems like they are very glad to spin this as: the whitest, richest, most privileged young faction of this country is being manipulated by Iranian interests (in addition to all the accusations of rampant antisemitism, etc. etc.).
posted by knotty knots at 7:58 PM on April 25 [2 favorites]
Oh oh, how opportune:
Robert Skvarla: "Starting a thread of all the groups allegedly in control of the student protests"
With citations, we've got:
- Russia
- China (multiple)
- Iran
- Houthis
- Hamas ofc
- uh Jewish millionaires... (Soros)
- the other millionaires (Rockefeller)
- Communists
- Muslims
- Qatar
- NGOs
- Democrats
- Trump
We need a bigger donkey.
posted by cendawanita at 8:12 PM on April 25 [8 favorites]
Robert Skvarla: "Starting a thread of all the groups allegedly in control of the student protests"
With citations, we've got:
- Russia
- China (multiple)
- Iran
- Houthis
- Hamas ofc
- uh Jewish millionaires... (Soros)
- the other millionaires (Rockefeller)
- Communists
- Muslims
- Qatar
- NGOs
- Democrats
- Trump
We need a bigger donkey.
posted by cendawanita at 8:12 PM on April 25 [8 favorites]
And according to NYT, watch out for "anti-Israel slurs".
posted by cendawanita at 8:14 PM on April 25 [7 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 8:14 PM on April 25 [7 favorites]
Police snipers on the roof at Ohio State watching the encampment
I don't think those are snipers. You wouldn't put a rifle on a tripod like that, a sniper wouldn't stand upright like that, there wouldn't be two next to each other like that, and there's no weapon visible in that picture.
This is a sniper. Reported on twitter at Indiana University; hard to track down the original sourcing.
posted by mr_roboto at 8:14 PM on April 25 [5 favorites]
I don't think those are snipers. You wouldn't put a rifle on a tripod like that, a sniper wouldn't stand upright like that, there wouldn't be two next to each other like that, and there's no weapon visible in that picture.
This is a sniper. Reported on twitter at Indiana University; hard to track down the original sourcing.
posted by mr_roboto at 8:14 PM on April 25 [5 favorites]
Dropping this here, per David Sirota: SIROTA’S SIGNALS: Trump Could Get New Powers — With Dems’ Help - If bipartisan legislation passes and Trump wins, he’ll have new power to punish nonprofits he deems to be “terrorist supporting.”
Over at the Palestine thread I'm currently posting updates from the discovery of the three mass graves in North Gaza (body count right now at 700~), and from the US side: U.S. Refuses to Back U.N. Calls for Probe into Mass Graves at Gaza Hospitals
I am absolutely praying for the kids to prevail.
posted by cendawanita at 9:10 PM on April 25 [11 favorites]
Over at the Palestine thread I'm currently posting updates from the discovery of the three mass graves in North Gaza (body count right now at 700~), and from the US side: U.S. Refuses to Back U.N. Calls for Probe into Mass Graves at Gaza Hospitals
I am absolutely praying for the kids to prevail.
posted by cendawanita at 9:10 PM on April 25 [11 favorites]
(Slight detour into Germany where it's being reported activists are being arrested in the middle of the night)
posted by cendawanita at 9:12 PM on April 25 [4 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:12 PM on April 25 [4 favorites]
Do with it what you will: NY Mag profile, posted today, on Shai Davidai.
posted by cendawanita at 9:15 PM on April 25 [2 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:15 PM on April 25 [2 favorites]
“A Message from the Chancellor on the Recent Student Protest,” Andrew Patrick Clark, McSweeney's Internet Tendency, 01 December 2023
posted by ob1quixote at 9:42 PM on April 25 [6 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 9:42 PM on April 25 [6 favorites]
“They’ll say we’re disturbing the peace, but there is no peace. What really bothers them is that we are disturbing the war.”
(Howard Zinn)
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:48 PM on April 25 [30 favorites]
(Howard Zinn)
posted by adrienneleigh at 11:48 PM on April 25 [30 favorites]
Taleed el-Sabawi: The internet is down in parts of Rafah again because of bombardment of internet structure, so I shared some of the news with my cousins including pictures of the protests at U.S. Universities. His response, “Wooow, all of this for Palestine? 🥹”
(Note: I believe in paying people for sharing their lived experience. So I will be including donation links whenever I share a story shared with me by someone in Gaza. Donation Link: chuffed.org/project/108486…)
Also: People in Gaza are praying that the students continue their peaceful protest. They hope it will make a difference—that it will be what turns the tide. 🤲🏽
posted by cendawanita at 12:33 AM on April 26 [9 favorites]
(Note: I believe in paying people for sharing their lived experience. So I will be including donation links whenever I share a story shared with me by someone in Gaza. Donation Link: chuffed.org/project/108486…)
Also: People in Gaza are praying that the students continue their peaceful protest. They hope it will make a difference—that it will be what turns the tide. 🤲🏽
posted by cendawanita at 12:33 AM on April 26 [9 favorites]
Some more notes from Emory:
The theological students occupying Candler speak. "As people who are being trained to be religious leaders, we really need to be able to step up in this moment." The crowd of students out to support them was reported by media as thousands.
Atlanta NLG reports that legal observers were detained first before police moved into arresting students because "The President doesn't want Green Hats on campus".
Emory is now admitting that most of those arrested were students and faculty, but have an absolutely wild statement claiming essentially that their police department figured real students would love to talk to cops, so anyone who didn't they figured was fair game for arrest.
Some Georgia legislators are opposing the response, but never fear, Georgia governor Kemp and attorney general Carr fully support continuing the brutalization as long as it's stopping "pro-terrorist radicals and liberal anarchists" on campuses.
posted by corb at 1:15 AM on April 26 [18 favorites]
The theological students occupying Candler speak. "As people who are being trained to be religious leaders, we really need to be able to step up in this moment." The crowd of students out to support them was reported by media as thousands.
Atlanta NLG reports that legal observers were detained first before police moved into arresting students because "The President doesn't want Green Hats on campus".
Emory is now admitting that most of those arrested were students and faculty, but have an absolutely wild statement claiming essentially that their police department figured real students would love to talk to cops, so anyone who didn't they figured was fair game for arrest.
Some Georgia legislators are opposing the response, but never fear, Georgia governor Kemp and attorney general Carr fully support continuing the brutalization as long as it's stopping "pro-terrorist radicals and liberal anarchists" on campuses.
posted by corb at 1:15 AM on April 26 [18 favorites]
This could have been the response to actual nazis and associated bigots on campus the entire time. A very small number of the Free Speech crowd that demanded we hear the chuds speak are now aghast at the fashy crackdown. Popehat, I think, is the highest profile one who is actually principled on this from what I can briefly see.
And so, so many of them aren't just quiet, they're full throated proponents of another Kent State.
posted by Slackermagee at 5:35 AM on April 26 [6 favorites]
And so, so many of them aren't just quiet, they're full throated proponents of another Kent State.
posted by Slackermagee at 5:35 AM on April 26 [6 favorites]
This could have been the response to actual nazis and associated bigots on campus the entire time.
That's because the party of actual nazis and racists has been cynically exploiting "campus antisemitism" as an Issue and have already effectively gotten the president of one university fired (yes, she resigned, but it may as well have been a firing).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:53 AM on April 26 [7 favorites]
That's because the party of actual nazis and racists has been cynically exploiting "campus antisemitism" as an Issue and have already effectively gotten the president of one university fired (yes, she resigned, but it may as well have been a firing).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 5:53 AM on April 26 [7 favorites]
I went to observe the Zionist protest, led by MAGA antivaxxer Sean Feucht, yesterday. Israeli flags were everywhere. The protest was predominantly supporters of Israel exerting their right to respond to the peace activists on campus and demand the release of the hostages held by Hamas; the most common chant was "bring them home." The vast majority of people there were polite and respectful. As a brown person without any visible signifiers of which side I support, I never felt in danger.
However. I saw a burly man with a tattoo that said "Jewish power" yell "I shot that flag while I was in the IDF---how many do you want dead, 60,000?" at a young person waving a Palestinian flag, while his friend yelled "they're going to die--join them in a shallow grave." I saw a man shout "Nakba Nakba Nakba Fuck You Nakba" at a counter protestor. I saw a crowd surround an (incredibly brave) young person wearing a kippah, keffiyeh, and kn95 mask and try to forcibly remove his mask while screaming "show your face".
Somehow, I doubt I'm going to see any of that in today's New York Times.
posted by rishabguha at 6:29 AM on April 26 [31 favorites]
However. I saw a burly man with a tattoo that said "Jewish power" yell "I shot that flag while I was in the IDF---how many do you want dead, 60,000?" at a young person waving a Palestinian flag, while his friend yelled "they're going to die--join them in a shallow grave." I saw a man shout "Nakba Nakba Nakba Fuck You Nakba" at a counter protestor. I saw a crowd surround an (incredibly brave) young person wearing a kippah, keffiyeh, and kn95 mask and try to forcibly remove his mask while screaming "show your face".
Somehow, I doubt I'm going to see any of that in today's New York Times.
posted by rishabguha at 6:29 AM on April 26 [31 favorites]
The Columbia Spectator coverage is excellent, and matches what I saw
posted by rishabguha at 6:44 AM on April 26 [4 favorites]
posted by rishabguha at 6:44 AM on April 26 [4 favorites]
It sickens me that right wing Christians are invoking antisemitism and throwing gasoline on the fire. You know what's antisemitic? Using Israel and Israeli Jews as a prop for end-times Revelations nonsense.
posted by kokaku at 8:51 AM on April 26 [9 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 8:51 AM on April 26 [9 favorites]
My heart: children in Gaza express their support for US college students fighting for them.
Meanwhile: IU Bloomington changed policy 24 hours before IU Divestment set up encampments. “To invoke a reference to an ad hoc committee that might have existed half a century ago and attempt to use it to justify the on-the-fly creation of a new policy today, is utterly unprincipled,” Sanders said in an email. “If a university lawyer was involved in concocting this rationalization, then no one should trust their integrity or judgment.”
In an email to faculty, Whitten confirmed the university changed the policy Wednesday night after becoming aware of the Thursday protest to “balance free speech and safety in the context of similar protests occurring nationally.” She wrote that the policy was posted online the morning of the protest.
Video of CUNY faculty forming a barrier between their students and campus police. (Twitter)
Stanford encampment set up during Admit weekend: “It’s important for admitted students to know that activism is alive on this campus and that this campus is not just filled with people who prioritize profits,” said Farah Tantawy ’26, a SAAP organizer.
SAAP, which was founded after the University removed the 120-day Sit-in to Stop Genocide, has five demands of the University: divesting from and boycotting entities and companies “complicit in Israeli war crimes, apartheid, and genocide,” calling for a ceasefire in a University statement, providing resources to Palestinian diaspora, Arab and Muslim students, identifying and addressing educational biases against Palestinian and Arab issues and creating five student seats on the Special Committee on Investment Responsibility.
24 hours at the Free Palestine encampment at UC Berkeley - While other student protests across the country are making headlines for confrontations with police, mass suspensions and political scrutiny, the scenes at UC Berkeley are calm. There have been no reported altercations or arrests relating to the protest as of press time, and despite the encampment being on the steps of UCPD’s headquarters, police were nowhere to be seen through the night.
The Times of Israel point of view of the protests: “Something really bad has to happen for something to be done about it. [The protesters] got what they wanted. The campus is Judenrein now. It’s occupied territory. It’s so funny they call it a de-occupation, or liberated zone, but Jews are not allowed,” Noah Miller said in a Zoom interview from his family home in Houston. (Note: I don't know what Judenrein means, could someone explain?)
posted by toastyk at 9:25 AM on April 26 [10 favorites]
Meanwhile: IU Bloomington changed policy 24 hours before IU Divestment set up encampments. “To invoke a reference to an ad hoc committee that might have existed half a century ago and attempt to use it to justify the on-the-fly creation of a new policy today, is utterly unprincipled,” Sanders said in an email. “If a university lawyer was involved in concocting this rationalization, then no one should trust their integrity or judgment.”
In an email to faculty, Whitten confirmed the university changed the policy Wednesday night after becoming aware of the Thursday protest to “balance free speech and safety in the context of similar protests occurring nationally.” She wrote that the policy was posted online the morning of the protest.
Video of CUNY faculty forming a barrier between their students and campus police. (Twitter)
Stanford encampment set up during Admit weekend: “It’s important for admitted students to know that activism is alive on this campus and that this campus is not just filled with people who prioritize profits,” said Farah Tantawy ’26, a SAAP organizer.
SAAP, which was founded after the University removed the 120-day Sit-in to Stop Genocide, has five demands of the University: divesting from and boycotting entities and companies “complicit in Israeli war crimes, apartheid, and genocide,” calling for a ceasefire in a University statement, providing resources to Palestinian diaspora, Arab and Muslim students, identifying and addressing educational biases against Palestinian and Arab issues and creating five student seats on the Special Committee on Investment Responsibility.
24 hours at the Free Palestine encampment at UC Berkeley - While other student protests across the country are making headlines for confrontations with police, mass suspensions and political scrutiny, the scenes at UC Berkeley are calm. There have been no reported altercations or arrests relating to the protest as of press time, and despite the encampment being on the steps of UCPD’s headquarters, police were nowhere to be seen through the night.
The Times of Israel point of view of the protests: “Something really bad has to happen for something to be done about it. [The protesters] got what they wanted. The campus is Judenrein now. It’s occupied territory. It’s so funny they call it a de-occupation, or liberated zone, but Jews are not allowed,” Noah Miller said in a Zoom interview from his family home in Houston. (Note: I don't know what Judenrein means, could someone explain?)
posted by toastyk at 9:25 AM on April 26 [10 favorites]
Police Arrest Rabbis Near Gaza-Israel Border at a Rally to Highlight Starvation
posted by Artw at 9:29 AM on April 26 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 9:29 AM on April 26 [3 favorites]
(Note: I don't know what Judenrein means, could someone explain?)
It was the term the Nazis used for regions where their genocidal project had been executed - that the region was "free" of Jewish people.
It's a vile comment, especially given how many protestors are Jewish.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:31 AM on April 26 [17 favorites]
It was the term the Nazis used for regions where their genocidal project had been executed - that the region was "free" of Jewish people.
It's a vile comment, especially given how many protestors are Jewish.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:31 AM on April 26 [17 favorites]
Slightly more specific, "rein" means something similar to "pure" or "cleansed". So "Judenrein" means "pure of Jews" or "cleansed of Jews".
posted by Zumbador at 9:42 AM on April 26 [1 favorite]
posted by Zumbador at 9:42 AM on April 26 [1 favorite]
Compare and contrast that description of events on campus with the first few paragraphs of the Shai Davidai profile.
posted by Artw at 9:55 AM on April 26
posted by Artw at 9:55 AM on April 26
From Artw's Rabbis link: A majority of Jewish Israelis oppose the delivery of more aid to Gaza, according to a poll conducted in February by the Israel Democracy Institute
Not sure I believe this but either way, February was a long time ago at this point.
posted by Glinn at 10:15 AM on April 26 [1 favorite]
Not sure I believe this but either way, February was a long time ago at this point.
posted by Glinn at 10:15 AM on April 26 [1 favorite]
I actually kind of regretted posting upthread about some of the less-hinged sentiments about Israel that I'd seen percolating from online into my well-meaning friends' beliefs, since it seemed maybe a bit irrelevant and hypothetical. But, well, NYT found a prominent student in the Columbia protests who has been a prolific poster in the same vein: Student Leader of Columbia Protests: ‘Zionists Don’t Deserve to Live’ (NYT):
[He] said in the January video that “Zionists don’t deserve to live” and “Be grateful that I’m not just going out and murdering Zionists."... during and after a disciplinary hearing with Columbia administrators that he recorded and then posted on Instagram.posted by BungaDunga at 10:37 AM on April 26 [3 favorites]
(and we all know that he isn't talking about murdering Christian Zionists...)
anyway, I feel terrible for these students and professors who have become the target of apparently the combined might of America's various violent uniformed enforcers, abetted by feckless administrators, for the crime of trying to do something about an ongoing genocide
posted by BungaDunga at 10:43 AM on April 26 [3 favorites]
anyway, I feel terrible for these students and professors who have become the target of apparently the combined might of America's various violent uniformed enforcers, abetted by feckless administrators, for the crime of trying to do something about an ongoing genocide
posted by BungaDunga at 10:43 AM on April 26 [3 favorites]
That guy certainly seems to be a prize idiot and I guess we are going to see his face plastered everywhere now.
posted by Artw at 10:58 AM on April 26 [7 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:58 AM on April 26 [7 favorites]
Yeah there's an overlap with the personality types who's currently all-in for Palestine (good) and susceptible to the same kinds of fascism that feels okay because they're currently not in power (see tankies; stan culture once they've discovered social justice language). What's happened to the guy since? He's apologised, according to the article - in combination with the message discipline within those running leadership roles it's looking like there's been a process of learning: Early Friday morning, Mr. James posted a statement on social media addressing his comments. “What I said was wrong,” he wrote. “Every member of our community deserves to feel safe without qualification.” He noted that he made these comments in January before he become involved with the protest movement and added that the leaders of the student protests did not condone the comments. “I agree with their assessment,” he wrote.
--
Earlier, Ben Lorber (with screen recordings): On last night's livestream, Christian nationalist organizers of today's 'United for Israel' march at Columbia explained that they're actually excited about rising antisemitism: it's a sign the End Times is near & Jews will convert to Christianity. Rally leader Sean Feucht:
Rally leader Russell Johnson explains he stands with Israel because the country serves as a "redemptive sign", "proof positive" that the fast-approaching End Times will bring "massive souls turning to the Lord in the nation of Israel". These are Jews' supposed allies?!
---
Statements of appreciation/support:
Ahmed El-Madhoun: For the first time, we're witnessing hope! Thank you to the student movement in America. From Gaza, we love you, we see your actions! Keep protesting until we can return to our homes in the north!
#ColumbiaUniversity
Jeune Palestine in France, as reported by National Students for Justice in Palestine: We’ve received a letter from a Palestinian youth formation in France to be delivered to the US Student Movement
This level of international communication and joint action hasn’t happened in decades! ❤️🔥
Students organizations in Gaza: "Statement: Student organizations in the Gaza Strip in solidarity with the Student Intifada in the United States"
"From Gaza to Columbia, to Ann Arbor and Berkeley, our hands are joined to end Nazi genocide & achieve our collective liberation"
(Yemenis in their regular Friday marches also were carrying banners of support, btw. )
--
Still:
WAWOG: Hassan Sayed, a fifth year PhD candidate in economics, and Achinthya Sivalingan, a SPIA MPA second year, have been arrested, evicted, and permanently banned from the @Princeton campus, thereby preventing them from finishing their degrees.
Yahoo (Fox News report): Foreign students could face harsher penalties than suspension for anti-Israel rioting: DHS
---
Literally what it says on the tin: A list of campus bail funds
posted by cendawanita at 11:00 AM on April 26 [11 favorites]
--
Earlier, Ben Lorber (with screen recordings): On last night's livestream, Christian nationalist organizers of today's 'United for Israel' march at Columbia explained that they're actually excited about rising antisemitism: it's a sign the End Times is near & Jews will convert to Christianity. Rally leader Sean Feucht:
Rally leader Russell Johnson explains he stands with Israel because the country serves as a "redemptive sign", "proof positive" that the fast-approaching End Times will bring "massive souls turning to the Lord in the nation of Israel". These are Jews' supposed allies?!
---
Statements of appreciation/support:
Ahmed El-Madhoun: For the first time, we're witnessing hope! Thank you to the student movement in America. From Gaza, we love you, we see your actions! Keep protesting until we can return to our homes in the north!
#ColumbiaUniversity
Jeune Palestine in France, as reported by National Students for Justice in Palestine: We’ve received a letter from a Palestinian youth formation in France to be delivered to the US Student Movement
This level of international communication and joint action hasn’t happened in decades! ❤️🔥
Students organizations in Gaza: "Statement: Student organizations in the Gaza Strip in solidarity with the Student Intifada in the United States"
"From Gaza to Columbia, to Ann Arbor and Berkeley, our hands are joined to end Nazi genocide & achieve our collective liberation"
(Yemenis in their regular Friday marches also were carrying banners of support, btw. )
--
Still:
WAWOG: Hassan Sayed, a fifth year PhD candidate in economics, and Achinthya Sivalingan, a SPIA MPA second year, have been arrested, evicted, and permanently banned from the @Princeton campus, thereby preventing them from finishing their degrees.
Yahoo (Fox News report): Foreign students could face harsher penalties than suspension for anti-Israel rioting: DHS
---
Literally what it says on the tin: A list of campus bail funds
posted by cendawanita at 11:00 AM on April 26 [11 favorites]
“Dingus of the week: Free speech absolutists who want kids arrested,” lyz, Men Yell At Me, 26 April 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 11:01 AM on April 26 [5 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 11:01 AM on April 26 [5 favorites]
“The Carnage Is the Point,” Daniel W. Drezner, Drezner's World, 26 April 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 11:06 AM on April 26 [4 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 11:06 AM on April 26 [4 favorites]
Up to a point, the protests are a valuable adornment on what the US likes to call democracy. We can see that adornment get removed in an instant (e.g. Kent State) where your life is literally worthless if someone wants to make a point.
The pressure brought to bear on these protests is substantial. I think mostly this is associated with donor pressure, follow the money, etc. But to the extent that this resembles how protests are handled in Russia, well.
Some of these students are risking a lot, and they stand to risk a lot more if the power of the state decides to flex even more violently.
posted by elkevelvet at 11:17 AM on April 26 [10 favorites]
The pressure brought to bear on these protests is substantial. I think mostly this is associated with donor pressure, follow the money, etc. But to the extent that this resembles how protests are handled in Russia, well.
Some of these students are risking a lot, and they stand to risk a lot more if the power of the state decides to flex even more violently.
posted by elkevelvet at 11:17 AM on April 26 [10 favorites]
Hassan Sayed, a fifth year PhD candidate in economics, and Achinthya Sivalingan, a SPIA MPA second year, have been arrested, evicted, and permanently banned from the @Princeton campus, thereby preventing them from finishing their degrees.
Their advisors should do everything in their power to reinstate them. A FIFTH year phd student? JFC they were at the end of the fucking finish line.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:12 PM on April 26 [16 favorites]
Their advisors should do everything in their power to reinstate them. A FIFTH year phd student? JFC they were at the end of the fucking finish line.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:12 PM on April 26 [16 favorites]
Hassan's advisor is Leah Boustan, who has shitty ass politics on this issue. Poor guy is fucked.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:14 PM on April 26 [5 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:14 PM on April 26 [5 favorites]
It was the term the Nazis used for regions where their genocidal project had been executed - that the region was "free" of Jewish people.
perhaps you're thinking of Judenfrei.
posted by clavdivs at 2:07 PM on April 26
perhaps you're thinking of Judenfrei.
posted by clavdivs at 2:07 PM on April 26
They both mean that, with slightly different connotations (Judenrein being even possibly slightly worse, if that's imaginable).
posted by Justinian at 2:57 PM on April 26 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 2:57 PM on April 26 [1 favorite]
I don't participate in social media anymore so maybe I've missed something but it's surprising to me how much the Great March of Return has been seemingly memory-holed.
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 4:10 PM on April 26 [4 favorites]
posted by GalaxieFiveHundred at 4:10 PM on April 26 [4 favorites]
Student Leader of Columbia Protests: ‘Zionists Don’t Deserve to Live’ (NYT):
You'll find assholes in any group or movement. At least this asshole realized they were wrong, accepts responsibility and issued a public apology for it. I am not unsympathetic to the aspect that LGBTQ+ persons of color are able take just so much abuse and shit before they say something they may regret later.
posted by mikelieman at 4:57 PM on April 26 [7 favorites]
You'll find assholes in any group or movement. At least this asshole realized they were wrong, accepts responsibility and issued a public apology for it. I am not unsympathetic to the aspect that LGBTQ+ persons of color are able take just so much abuse and shit before they say something they may regret later.
posted by mikelieman at 4:57 PM on April 26 [7 favorites]
Their advisors should do everything in their power to reinstate them. A FIFTH year phd student? JFC they were at the end of the fucking finish line.
any decent advisor would be strapping on their quixote armour and their che face, bidding their loved ones farewell, and employing literally any means necessary to ensure that either the student is reinstated or princeton fucking university loses its accreditation in a vanishingly improbable wave of cleansing bureaucratic fire. this sort of decency will fail and if they're really serious will probably end with them driving the school bus with prof salaita but if one is going to be a prof, as opposed to a goddamn functionary, there's pretty much one rule and it's that your grad student is an autonomous professional to be treated as such and given guidance on a fully generous but consensual/egalitarian basis, but if the system fucks with them then so help you jesus it's gonna end with you doing stuff that you later have to excuse by invoking your "right to defend my...".
posted by busted_crayons at 5:55 PM on April 26 [9 favorites]
any decent advisor would be strapping on their quixote armour and their che face, bidding their loved ones farewell, and employing literally any means necessary to ensure that either the student is reinstated or princeton fucking university loses its accreditation in a vanishingly improbable wave of cleansing bureaucratic fire. this sort of decency will fail and if they're really serious will probably end with them driving the school bus with prof salaita but if one is going to be a prof, as opposed to a goddamn functionary, there's pretty much one rule and it's that your grad student is an autonomous professional to be treated as such and given guidance on a fully generous but consensual/egalitarian basis, but if the system fucks with them then so help you jesus it's gonna end with you doing stuff that you later have to excuse by invoking your "right to defend my...".
posted by busted_crayons at 5:55 PM on April 26 [9 favorites]
“Chartbook 279: Columbia University's ‘crisis’ - a political economy sketch map.,” Adam Tooze, Chartbook, 26 April 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 6:17 PM on April 26 [2 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 6:17 PM on April 26 [2 favorites]
Good news: (Austin American-Statesman) Charges dropped against all 57 arrested in connection to UT-Austin pro-Palestinian protest
Bad news (unless you're in for bipartisanship): (Jewish Insider)
Torres, Lawler push for federal antisemitism monitors on college campuses -
The COLUMBIA Act would pull federal funding from schools that don’t comply with federal monitoring procedures
posted by cendawanita at 6:39 PM on April 26 [4 favorites]
Bad news (unless you're in for bipartisanship): (Jewish Insider)
Torres, Lawler push for federal antisemitism monitors on college campuses -
The COLUMBIA Act would pull federal funding from schools that don’t comply with federal monitoring procedures
posted by cendawanita at 6:39 PM on April 26 [4 favorites]
(and we all know that he isn't talking about murdering Christian Zionists...)
On what basis do you say that? From the article you linked:
He also compared Zionists to white supremacists and Nazis. “These are all the same people,” he said. “The existence of them and the projects they have built, i.e. Israel, it’s all antithetical to peace. It’s all antithetical to peace. And so, yes, I feel very comfortable, very comfortable, calling for those people to die.”
[...]
But in an interview earlier in the week, Mr. James drew a distinction between the ideas of anti-Zionism, which describes opposition to the Jewish state of Israel, and antisemitism. “There is a difference, he said. “We’ve always had Jewish people as part of our community where they have expressed themselves, they feel safe, and they feel loved. And we want all people to feel safe in this encampment. We are a multiracial, multigenerational group of people.”
posted by i like crows very much at 7:05 PM on April 26 [12 favorites]
On what basis do you say that? From the article you linked:
He also compared Zionists to white supremacists and Nazis. “These are all the same people,” he said. “The existence of them and the projects they have built, i.e. Israel, it’s all antithetical to peace. It’s all antithetical to peace. And so, yes, I feel very comfortable, very comfortable, calling for those people to die.”
[...]
But in an interview earlier in the week, Mr. James drew a distinction between the ideas of anti-Zionism, which describes opposition to the Jewish state of Israel, and antisemitism. “There is a difference, he said. “We’ve always had Jewish people as part of our community where they have expressed themselves, they feel safe, and they feel loved. And we want all people to feel safe in this encampment. We are a multiracial, multigenerational group of people.”
posted by i like crows very much at 7:05 PM on April 26 [12 favorites]
George Washington University live coverage. The school tried to get the Metropolitan Police Department to clear the protest encampment, but they evidently declined.
posted by ndr at 7:11 PM on April 26 [2 favorites]
posted by ndr at 7:11 PM on April 26 [2 favorites]
“Student Revolt and the Curtailing of Critical Speech,” Thomas Zimmer, Democracy Americana, 27 April 2024
The violent crackdown on campus protests reveals an alliance between the Right and mainstream elites who are driven by reactionary impulses and status anxieties.posted by ob1quixote at 7:22 PM on April 26 [8 favorites]
Bad news (unless you're in for bipartisanship): (Jewish Insider)
Torres, Lawler push for federal antisemitism monitors on college campuses -
The COLUMBIA Act would pull federal funding from schools that don’t comply with federal monitoring procedures<>
Tankies devastated to learn that commissars aren't just back, they're bipartisan and bougie now.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:35 PM on April 26 [5 favorites]
Torres, Lawler push for federal antisemitism monitors on college campuses -
The COLUMBIA Act would pull federal funding from schools that don’t comply with federal monitoring procedures<>
Tankies devastated to learn that commissars aren't just back, they're bipartisan and bougie now.
posted by Slackermagee at 9:35 PM on April 26 [5 favorites]
I'm a little confused. Surely everyone who has a problem with "death to Zionists", pure denotation, trusting they actually mean Zionists, not Jews, also has a problem with "death to fascists"?
I mean, not everyone believes in punching Nazis, sure, but like, if you believe in punching Nazis, you probably believe in punching Zionists?
I keep missing from all of this the recognition that perhaps committed pro-Zionists counterprotesting in favour of genocide are being treated like the genocide advocates they are? Like, it's not actually that weird to say "all ethnic supremacists, avowed racists and genocide advocates get the same treatment".
posted by Audreynachrome at 6:31 AM on April 27 [12 favorites]
I mean, not everyone believes in punching Nazis, sure, but like, if you believe in punching Nazis, you probably believe in punching Zionists?
I keep missing from all of this the recognition that perhaps committed pro-Zionists counterprotesting in favour of genocide are being treated like the genocide advocates they are? Like, it's not actually that weird to say "all ethnic supremacists, avowed racists and genocide advocates get the same treatment".
posted by Audreynachrome at 6:31 AM on April 27 [12 favorites]
Planned Biden Morehouse Visit Angers Black Student Gaza Supporters
By engaging with students at the town hall, Thomas took a different approach than Columbia’s Shafik to the discord at Morehouse. He hosted the Q&A session inside the Bank of America Auditorium about 24 hours after news broke that Biden would come to the campus on May 19. He also endured personal criticism of his decision.posted by audi alteram partem at 7:38 AM on April 27 [1 favorite]
On what basis do you say that? From the article you linked:This may be reading too closely, but how many people really credit Christian Zionists with building Israel? Supporting, enabling, and so on, sure. Unless he's blaming white supremacists and Nazis for building Israel, which is a whole other kettle of fish.
He also compared Zionists to white supremacists and Nazis. “These are all the same people,” he said. “The existence of them and the projects they have built, i.e. Israel
posted by BungaDunga at 7:43 AM on April 27
The Emory Faculty Senate will be voting on the issue of "No-Confidence" against President Fenves, who invited the police to campus, this upcoming week.
posted by corb at 7:46 AM on April 27 [9 favorites]
posted by corb at 7:46 AM on April 27 [9 favorites]
Well, the difficulty is that a significant portion of people assume that Zionists are Jews, and there's a significant number of Jewish people who are Zionists. There is no separation for a lot of people.
In the meantime, the current news may start highlighting all the anti-BDS laws in the US:
Ohio State University says it can't legally divest from Israel: Johnson is referring to Ohio Revised Code (ORC) Section 9.76 — which was signed into law by then-Gov. John Kasich in 2016 and later amended in 2022 — which prohibits state agencies like universities from contracting with companies that are boycotting or disinvesting from Israel.
38 states have passed anti-BDS laws.
That is not to say that there isn't already an informal academic boycott; cendawanita, I think, posted this article the other day highlighting how Israeli academics are being disinvited from conferences, face overseas rejections, etc.
List of all the colleges where students have voted to cut ties with Israel.
Cal-Poly Humboldt passed a no-confidence vote of their president.
posted by toastyk at 7:48 AM on April 27 [8 favorites]
In the meantime, the current news may start highlighting all the anti-BDS laws in the US:
Ohio State University says it can't legally divest from Israel: Johnson is referring to Ohio Revised Code (ORC) Section 9.76 — which was signed into law by then-Gov. John Kasich in 2016 and later amended in 2022 — which prohibits state agencies like universities from contracting with companies that are boycotting or disinvesting from Israel.
38 states have passed anti-BDS laws.
That is not to say that there isn't already an informal academic boycott; cendawanita, I think, posted this article the other day highlighting how Israeli academics are being disinvited from conferences, face overseas rejections, etc.
List of all the colleges where students have voted to cut ties with Israel.
Cal-Poly Humboldt passed a no-confidence vote of their president.
posted by toastyk at 7:48 AM on April 27 [8 favorites]
ACLU: Open Letter to College and University Presidents on Student Protests
First, university administrators must not single out particular viewpoints — however offensive they may be to some members of the community — for censorship, discipline, or disproportionate punishment. Viewpoint neutrality is essential. Harassment directed at individuals because of their race, ethnicity, or religion is not, of course, permissible. But general calls for a Palestinian state “from the river to the sea,” or defenses of Israel’s assault on Gaza, even if many listeners find these messages deeply offensive, cannot be prohibited or punished by a university that respects free speech principles.posted by audi alteram partem at 7:54 AM on April 27 [3 favorites]
Out Of Control US Cops Arresting Professors At Palestine Protests (Novara Media, YouTube/Piped/Invidious, 10m5s)
posted by flabdablet at 8:00 AM on April 27 [4 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 8:00 AM on April 27 [4 favorites]
Cal-Poly Humboldt passed a no-confidence vote of their president.
Only three no votes. I have to say I'm pretty impressed with how faculty have been stepping up to protect their students in recent days: they were shocked at first and slow to move, but they're doing it now. If nothing else, I think seeing the violence enacted at some of the uglier police actions at campuses is making professors everywhere realize that they could be seeing snipers and tear gas and rubber bullets at their colleges too if they don't look out.
posted by corb at 8:00 AM on April 27 [10 favorites]
Only three no votes. I have to say I'm pretty impressed with how faculty have been stepping up to protect their students in recent days: they were shocked at first and slow to move, but they're doing it now. If nothing else, I think seeing the violence enacted at some of the uglier police actions at campuses is making professors everywhere realize that they could be seeing snipers and tear gas and rubber bullets at their colleges too if they don't look out.
posted by corb at 8:00 AM on April 27 [10 favorites]
Curious because I’m not familiar with academia: what are the consequences of the faculty no confidence votes?
posted by toastyk at 8:07 AM on April 27 [3 favorites]
posted by toastyk at 8:07 AM on April 27 [3 favorites]
This may be reading too closely, but how many people really credit Christian Zionists with building Israel?
Not a lot, I think, which probably says that it is indeed too close a read. I take "These are all the same people" to mean "all these people have the same worldview", which I think is self-evident; all of those groups routinely act as if "abuse of power" were an oxymoron.
posted by flabdablet at 8:08 AM on April 27 [4 favorites]
Not a lot, I think, which probably says that it is indeed too close a read. I take "These are all the same people" to mean "all these people have the same worldview", which I think is self-evident; all of those groups routinely act as if "abuse of power" were an oxymoron.
posted by flabdablet at 8:08 AM on April 27 [4 favorites]
Curious because I’m not familiar with academia: what are the consequences of the faculty no confidence votes?
There are none. High-level admins typically work for a board of trustees (which go by wildly different names from place to place), who can usually be summarized broadly as "regional business executives and real-estate developers," and not in any way shape or form for the faculty.
In a vote like the one reported from Humboldt, there are no real consequences. In other places where the vote was more split, the consequences are that the president or provost has confirmation about who his or her enemies are who are standing in the way of their StrAtEGiC iNItIaTivES, so they will presumably adjust funding priorities accordingly.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:49 AM on April 27 [5 favorites]
There are none. High-level admins typically work for a board of trustees (which go by wildly different names from place to place), who can usually be summarized broadly as "regional business executives and real-estate developers," and not in any way shape or form for the faculty.
In a vote like the one reported from Humboldt, there are no real consequences. In other places where the vote was more split, the consequences are that the president or provost has confirmation about who his or her enemies are who are standing in the way of their StrAtEGiC iNItIaTivES, so they will presumably adjust funding priorities accordingly.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 8:49 AM on April 27 [5 favorites]
Curious because I’m not familiar with academia: what are the consequences of the faculty no confidence votes?
I understand it's the academic equivalent of sliding a revolver with a single bullet across the table. No real consequences, but the social consequences are enormous, and many presidents simply resign afterwards when the vote is as unanimous as that. Also because Boards of Trustees often prefer that their appointed presidents be people who can do relational work, and there is nothing more damning of your inability to do relational work than losing a vote 170-3.
posted by corb at 8:57 AM on April 27 [8 favorites]
I understand it's the academic equivalent of sliding a revolver with a single bullet across the table. No real consequences, but the social consequences are enormous, and many presidents simply resign afterwards when the vote is as unanimous as that. Also because Boards of Trustees often prefer that their appointed presidents be people who can do relational work, and there is nothing more damning of your inability to do relational work than losing a vote 170-3.
posted by corb at 8:57 AM on April 27 [8 favorites]
Curious because I’m not familiar with academia: what are the consequences of the faculty no confidence votes?
It's very dependent on the situation and the institution. The president is not formally or officially answerable to a faculty vote, but if they're already on the edge, publicly losing the support of the faculty can push them over. They can still do their job, but it's going to be a pain in the ass. Also, a vocal condemnation of the president by the faculty might be enough to push skeptical trustees into the anti-president faction.
posted by mr_roboto at 9:08 AM on April 27 [9 favorites]
It's very dependent on the situation and the institution. The president is not formally or officially answerable to a faculty vote, but if they're already on the edge, publicly losing the support of the faculty can push them over. They can still do their job, but it's going to be a pain in the ass. Also, a vocal condemnation of the president by the faculty might be enough to push skeptical trustees into the anti-president faction.
posted by mr_roboto at 9:08 AM on April 27 [9 favorites]
how many people really credit Christian Zionists with building Israel?
All these campus protests are very explicitly criticizing US backing (military aid, vetoing ceasefire, refusal to condemn atrocities).
And US backing is mostly driven by White conservatives and centrists, i.e. Christian Zionists and WASPs in general.
Jews in America are a minority and not the main power behind US support of Israel (though AIPAC and ADL certainly have blood on their hands, they would be ineffective if Christian evangelicals weren't on the same side).
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:49 AM on April 27 [16 favorites]
All these campus protests are very explicitly criticizing US backing (military aid, vetoing ceasefire, refusal to condemn atrocities).
And US backing is mostly driven by White conservatives and centrists, i.e. Christian Zionists and WASPs in general.
Jews in America are a minority and not the main power behind US support of Israel (though AIPAC and ADL certainly have blood on their hands, they would be ineffective if Christian evangelicals weren't on the same side).
posted by splitpeasoup at 9:49 AM on April 27 [16 favorites]
A few tidbits from Twitter/X:
Apparently police enlisted fraternity members to clear the encampment at Arizona State
EIC of Jewish Currents on false accusations of antisemitism (prompted by a recent one at Northeastern)
CUNY protesters push back a police attempt to enter the encampment
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 1:05 PM on April 27 [6 favorites]
Apparently police enlisted fraternity members to clear the encampment at Arizona State
EIC of Jewish Currents on false accusations of antisemitism (prompted by a recent one at Northeastern)
CUNY protesters push back a police attempt to enter the encampment
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 1:05 PM on April 27 [6 favorites]
The Student-Led Protests Aren’t Perfect. That Doesn’t Mean They’re Not Right.
What I saw were moving, creative and peaceful protests by people seeking to end the slaughter in Gaza, where more than 34,000 people have died, the majority of them women and children. I also saw things that left me quite troubled, and heard from Jewish students both inside and outside the camps navigating a campus fraught with emotions. But while reporting on the protests up close gave me insight into how unsettling some aspects of activism can be, it doesn’t mean the protesters’ actions are misguided. These young people seek a worthy cause: to end what may be the most brutal military operation for civilians in the 21st century....posted by BungaDunga at 1:49 PM on April 27 [13 favorites]
It is easy when looking backward to remember the fight for a good cause as pure and untainted, even if it did not seem so at the time. In the same way, we now remember the Vietnam War as an American tragedy. The students at Columbia University who protested it seem, in retrospect, to have been right. But our memories elide some of their more outré tactics. A list of popular chants employed by antiwar protesters at a time when thousands of American soldiers were dying each year fighting in the war included things like “One side’s right, one side’s wrong, We’re on the side of the Viet Cong!” and “Save Hanoi, Lose Saigon, Victory to the Viet Cong!”
A list of popular chants employed by antiwar protesters at a time when thousands of American soldiers were dying each year fighting in the war included things like “One side’s right, one side’s wrong, We’re on the side of the Viet Cong!”
you can question the tactical utility or suggest that organisers ought to have thought differently about the optics of chants like that, but one needn't take any particular position on vietnamese politics at the time to get that that's a completely sensible slogan expressing the obvious, and unique, correct opinion on the specific question of who was in the right in the specific matter of confrontation between the us military and the nlf. it's not like campus protesters at the time favoured the deaths of american soldiers, either; those deaths were an atrocity which was the fault of the architects of the invasion the same protesters opposed. this is all totally orthogonal to how one feels about the nlf and their goals and methods in general.
an organisation does a bunch of different stuff, and it does not make one a supporter/admirer/whatever of that organisation in general to wish them success in resisting a literal invasion, which is what whoever is shooting back at the idf in gaza, where the latter are actual genocidal invaders is doing, and which they (the defending palestinian combatants) are not merely entitled to do, but actually responsible for doing. the same way that the specific idf personnel who responded to attacks on israeli civilians last autumn acted, in that specific moment, within their rights and in response to a real duty. by invading gaza, israel created a situation where further violence by hamas --- not an org likely to arouse the sympathies of leftish us students on their political merits, unlike the viet cong --- in defence of territory and people it is their responsibility to defend, looks pretty legitimate by most people's standards if applied consistently, no matter whether they admit it or how they view the political situation more broadly. if protesters want to point out who's acting within their rights and duties in the specific matter of confrontation in gaza between palestinian and israeli combatants and who isn't, that doesn't make them "hamas supporters" and, though such comments might or might not be strategically optimal, anyone taking offence should be reminded that facts (to borrow from a noted staunch supporter of israel) don't care about one's feelings.
posted by busted_crayons at 6:11 PM on April 27 [4 favorites]
you can question the tactical utility or suggest that organisers ought to have thought differently about the optics of chants like that, but one needn't take any particular position on vietnamese politics at the time to get that that's a completely sensible slogan expressing the obvious, and unique, correct opinion on the specific question of who was in the right in the specific matter of confrontation between the us military and the nlf. it's not like campus protesters at the time favoured the deaths of american soldiers, either; those deaths were an atrocity which was the fault of the architects of the invasion the same protesters opposed. this is all totally orthogonal to how one feels about the nlf and their goals and methods in general.
an organisation does a bunch of different stuff, and it does not make one a supporter/admirer/whatever of that organisation in general to wish them success in resisting a literal invasion, which is what whoever is shooting back at the idf in gaza, where the latter are actual genocidal invaders is doing, and which they (the defending palestinian combatants) are not merely entitled to do, but actually responsible for doing. the same way that the specific idf personnel who responded to attacks on israeli civilians last autumn acted, in that specific moment, within their rights and in response to a real duty. by invading gaza, israel created a situation where further violence by hamas --- not an org likely to arouse the sympathies of leftish us students on their political merits, unlike the viet cong --- in defence of territory and people it is their responsibility to defend, looks pretty legitimate by most people's standards if applied consistently, no matter whether they admit it or how they view the political situation more broadly. if protesters want to point out who's acting within their rights and duties in the specific matter of confrontation in gaza between palestinian and israeli combatants and who isn't, that doesn't make them "hamas supporters" and, though such comments might or might not be strategically optimal, anyone taking offence should be reminded that facts (to borrow from a noted staunch supporter of israel) don't care about one's feelings.
posted by busted_crayons at 6:11 PM on April 27 [4 favorites]
“Have We Learned Nothing About How Protest Works?” Charles P. Pierce, Esquire, 27 April 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 7:37 PM on April 27 [4 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 7:37 PM on April 27 [4 favorites]
Esquire:
posted by flabdablet at 9:25 PM on April 27 [12 favorites]
A protest movement again has encountered the warrior-cop mentality, to use Corey Robin’s useful phrase. Senators and mayors and pundits and the Speaker of the House of Representatives have called for ladling the National Guard on top of the riot squads. And what is the cause of this? A foreign policy issue regarding something our well-armed ally is doing far from our shores, where mass graves are now being discovered. Propaganda and disinformation abound. And now we’re unleashing the brutal power of modern law-enforcement—and, possibly, armed troops—against our fellow citizens on one side of the issue. Jesus.Um... when your military-industrial complex is making as much money as it is by pouring arms into it, all funded by your taxes, then it is your war: you broke it, you bought it. The ruling classes understand this.
It…is…not…our…war.
We have learned nothing and our leaders, it seems, have learned even less.The collective worldwide yawn in response to Israel's use of snipers to kill and maim children participating in the Great March of Return have shown our leaders that dominance over the news cycle is an effective counter to having gross injustices and abuses of power laid bare for all to see. They're betting that it doesn't matter what is laid bare for all to see once enough of the witnesses are adequately tampered with.
posted by flabdablet at 9:25 PM on April 27 [12 favorites]
> The Student-Led Protests Aren’t Perfect. That Doesn’t Mean They’re Not Right.
This opinion piece is pretty good, honestly, but this bit made me roll my eyes:
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:01 PM on April 27 [14 favorites]
This opinion piece is pretty good, honestly, but this bit made me roll my eyes:
“There is only one solution, intifada revolution,” went another.The word "solution" was chosen because it rhymes with "revolution", lady! They're not trying to evoke the Nazis!
I winced upon hearing the last chant. Not so much the word intifada, which has many meanings and intonations depending on the context. But why choose the word “solution,” one so redolent of the Nazis’ “final solution,” which murdered six million Jews across Europe?
posted by adrienneleigh at 10:01 PM on April 27 [14 favorites]
EIC of Jewish Currents on false accusations of antisemitism (prompted by a recent one at Northeastern)
I caught up to that via this Daily Beast reporting (repost on Yahoo Canada): Pro-Israel Agitator Shouts ‘Kill the Jews,’ Gets Everyone Else Arrested
If I have one American cent for every time something like this happens... Well, unlike the usual joke where I'd have 2 cents, I think at this point I can comfortably buy one American-priced coffee as well.
In addition to the Adam Tooze piece upthread that was really interesting for me about the economic situation in Columbia with regards to its endowment and overall income, I thought this thread by Marcelius Braxton useful for understanding as well, where divestment is even harder than before because endowments moved their investments away from low-risk equities and how this impacted spending which is not actually on the student body but instead maximising ranking and other publicity criteria that attracts funding.
Independent: Gen-Z sees the Gaza protests as their 1968 moment: ‘We built this on their legacy’
Bisan back in Gaza had a lovely video just reacting to the student protests (which I've seen the moniker "Student Spring" arise, but I wasn't present where and when that came up)
---
Just random comments I thought interesting:
Hafsa Halawa: (in a comment on a UT law on the protestors) In 2013-14, when huge student protests engulfed Egyptian campuses, police arrested tens of thousands of students, govt passed a law that prohibited any of them ever returning to school again (incl private unis). USG rightly conditioned aid citing this and related protest laws.
- Report about Portland State University: BREAKING: Anticipating pro-Palestine campus divestment protests, Portland State University has just announced it will “pause” accepting donations from genocide-profiteer @Boeing, a major funding contributor.
We’ve obtained a copy of the email sent to faculty & students:
- Transcription of first 3 minutes of the call from Mumia Abu-Jamal to the CUNY students
- Shireen Abu Akleh's niece is part of the Columbia protest
- Anjali Enjeti: Every so often I’m reminded of how, after the police killing of Michael Brown, Palestinians shared with Ferguson protestors how to take the sting out of tear gas.
- Tali Shapiro (an Israeli fyi) has been very sardonic about the documented ways the protests are trying to be shut down:
- Fashion Institute of Technology's security not allowing pizza delivery into the encampment: I see the @FIT is importing Israel’s starvation methods 🫠
- CUNY not allowing toilet access: And @CUNY is going for using basic needs as a bargaining chip 🫠
Basically left/radical/anti-war/anti-occupation/Palestinian/not-on-metafilter Israelis have been going at it, eg from when this first all broke out:
Amal Oraby: אני ממש גאה באוניברסיטת חיפה הקדימה את המקבילות שלה בארה"ב בכמעט עשור, כאשר הביאה לנו פרשים כדי לפזר את ההפגנה שלנו על הדשא ב 2012 נגד עוד מלחמה בעזה.
האקדמיה הישראלית תמיד הייתה פורצת דרך. (as translated by @ireallyhateyou: "I am really proud of the University of Haifa, which was almost a decade ahead of its counterparts in the US, when it brought us cavalry to disperse our demonstration on the lawn in 2012 against another war in Gaza.
Israeli academia has always been a trailblazer.")
posted by cendawanita at 11:45 PM on April 27 [17 favorites]
I caught up to that via this Daily Beast reporting (repost on Yahoo Canada): Pro-Israel Agitator Shouts ‘Kill the Jews,’ Gets Everyone Else Arrested
If I have one American cent for every time something like this happens... Well, unlike the usual joke where I'd have 2 cents, I think at this point I can comfortably buy one American-priced coffee as well.
In addition to the Adam Tooze piece upthread that was really interesting for me about the economic situation in Columbia with regards to its endowment and overall income, I thought this thread by Marcelius Braxton useful for understanding as well, where divestment is even harder than before because endowments moved their investments away from low-risk equities and how this impacted spending which is not actually on the student body but instead maximising ranking and other publicity criteria that attracts funding.
Independent: Gen-Z sees the Gaza protests as their 1968 moment: ‘We built this on their legacy’
Bisan back in Gaza had a lovely video just reacting to the student protests (which I've seen the moniker "Student Spring" arise, but I wasn't present where and when that came up)
---
Just random comments I thought interesting:
Hafsa Halawa: (in a comment on a UT law on the protestors) In 2013-14, when huge student protests engulfed Egyptian campuses, police arrested tens of thousands of students, govt passed a law that prohibited any of them ever returning to school again (incl private unis). USG rightly conditioned aid citing this and related protest laws.
- Report about Portland State University: BREAKING: Anticipating pro-Palestine campus divestment protests, Portland State University has just announced it will “pause” accepting donations from genocide-profiteer @Boeing, a major funding contributor.
We’ve obtained a copy of the email sent to faculty & students:
- Transcription of first 3 minutes of the call from Mumia Abu-Jamal to the CUNY students
- Shireen Abu Akleh's niece is part of the Columbia protest
- Anjali Enjeti: Every so often I’m reminded of how, after the police killing of Michael Brown, Palestinians shared with Ferguson protestors how to take the sting out of tear gas.
- Tali Shapiro (an Israeli fyi) has been very sardonic about the documented ways the protests are trying to be shut down:
- Fashion Institute of Technology's security not allowing pizza delivery into the encampment: I see the @FIT is importing Israel’s starvation methods 🫠
- CUNY not allowing toilet access: And @CUNY is going for using basic needs as a bargaining chip 🫠
Basically left/radical/anti-war/anti-occupation/Palestinian/not-on-metafilter Israelis have been going at it, eg from when this first all broke out:
Amal Oraby: אני ממש גאה באוניברסיטת חיפה הקדימה את המקבילות שלה בארה"ב בכמעט עשור, כאשר הביאה לנו פרשים כדי לפזר את ההפגנה שלנו על הדשא ב 2012 נגד עוד מלחמה בעזה.
האקדמיה הישראלית תמיד הייתה פורצת דרך. (as translated by @ireallyhateyou: "I am really proud of the University of Haifa, which was almost a decade ahead of its counterparts in the US, when it brought us cavalry to disperse our demonstration on the lawn in 2012 against another war in Gaza.
Israeli academia has always been a trailblazer.")
posted by cendawanita at 11:45 PM on April 27 [17 favorites]
Police disperse protesters at Washington University in St. Louis
Yemenis honoring the US student protests
Gazans thanking US students for protesting on their behalf
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:41 AM on April 28 [7 favorites]
Yemenis honoring the US student protests
Gazans thanking US students for protesting on their behalf
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 2:41 AM on April 28 [7 favorites]
The word "solution" was chosen because it rhymes with "revolution", lady! They're not trying to evoke the Nazis!
oh my god yes exactly.
this reminds me of a story about something that happened to my friend recently. he teaches at a liberal arts college in the northeastern us that operates some sort of private kindergarten. my friend has nothing to do with this, he's just a prof at the college. he's been, unusually for tenured people in our academic discipline, pretty outspoken about the genocide, and has given some public invited lectures about the usacbi boycott of israeli universities. my friend is an admirably confident person and was anticipating unpleasant consequences. eventually, he and his family members got doxxed, there's an ongoing pressure campaign against his employer to sack him, organisers of his lectures are having to mobilise union support and hire lawyers because their employers retaliated against them, etc. and my friend gets lots of unhinged hate mail now. he recently shared one from someone that claimed to be about to enrol their kid in the aforementioned on-campus kindergarten, and went on for multiple sanctimonious paragraphs about their "fear" that he (my friend, a [jewish] professor in a part of the college unrelated to the kindergarten programme) might commit violent hate crimes against their kid. it was incredible --- literally, expressing a fear that is not credible --- while also self-righteous and aggressive in tone. the article's comment on the use of the word "solution", despite the fact that it comes from someone whose overall take is very different from that of the person who harassed my friend over email, strikes a similar note to the email's breathless repetition of "are you going to attack my daughter?" to a random stranger.
(my friend, in a move that makes me vaguely worried that he also clicks on links in phishing emails and thinks pro wrestling is real, but also displays a lot of commitment to pedagogy even outside the classroom, responded patiently and relatively kindly to this person, explaining his position and how it differs completely from that of people who do actual hate crimes. most of one's time is spent on the most confused and that's just how the job works, i guess.)
i suppose it's not possible to tell whether the person who wrote that email really is afraid of my friend, or whether the author's reaction to "solution" is real. but most of my real feelings don't make any damn sense, either, and it's not anyone else's responsibility to accommodate them when they are far down a fairly objective priority list. the same goes double for fear that's been manipulated and moulded by years of propaganda. at a certain point, "nuanced" support for the protesters, like some parts of that article, puts one on the side of the riot police.
posted by busted_crayons at 3:26 AM on April 28 [17 favorites]
oh my god yes exactly.
this reminds me of a story about something that happened to my friend recently. he teaches at a liberal arts college in the northeastern us that operates some sort of private kindergarten. my friend has nothing to do with this, he's just a prof at the college. he's been, unusually for tenured people in our academic discipline, pretty outspoken about the genocide, and has given some public invited lectures about the usacbi boycott of israeli universities. my friend is an admirably confident person and was anticipating unpleasant consequences. eventually, he and his family members got doxxed, there's an ongoing pressure campaign against his employer to sack him, organisers of his lectures are having to mobilise union support and hire lawyers because their employers retaliated against them, etc. and my friend gets lots of unhinged hate mail now. he recently shared one from someone that claimed to be about to enrol their kid in the aforementioned on-campus kindergarten, and went on for multiple sanctimonious paragraphs about their "fear" that he (my friend, a [jewish] professor in a part of the college unrelated to the kindergarten programme) might commit violent hate crimes against their kid. it was incredible --- literally, expressing a fear that is not credible --- while also self-righteous and aggressive in tone. the article's comment on the use of the word "solution", despite the fact that it comes from someone whose overall take is very different from that of the person who harassed my friend over email, strikes a similar note to the email's breathless repetition of "are you going to attack my daughter?" to a random stranger.
(my friend, in a move that makes me vaguely worried that he also clicks on links in phishing emails and thinks pro wrestling is real, but also displays a lot of commitment to pedagogy even outside the classroom, responded patiently and relatively kindly to this person, explaining his position and how it differs completely from that of people who do actual hate crimes. most of one's time is spent on the most confused and that's just how the job works, i guess.)
i suppose it's not possible to tell whether the person who wrote that email really is afraid of my friend, or whether the author's reaction to "solution" is real. but most of my real feelings don't make any damn sense, either, and it's not anyone else's responsibility to accommodate them when they are far down a fairly objective priority list. the same goes double for fear that's been manipulated and moulded by years of propaganda. at a certain point, "nuanced" support for the protesters, like some parts of that article, puts one on the side of the riot police.
posted by busted_crayons at 3:26 AM on April 28 [17 favorites]
In this thread, we have someone who admitted they're "not qualified to say what counts as antisemitism". Then they posted an article to an anti-Zionist who was advocating violence and confidently implied he was antisemitic because "we all know that he isn't talking about murdering Christian Zionists" [emphasis theirs]. People didn't all agree with that take. When I quoted a part of the article that contradicted this claim, it turns out their argument depended on a particular reading of "the projects they have built" to mean Jews. This was very debatable.
It's a miniature study of how accusations of antisemitism can fall apart when you look a little bit closer. I would urge people to fact check things posted by the NYT, taking care to distinguish anti-Zionism from antisemitism. There's a lot of that in their reporting.
posted by i like crows very much at 5:13 AM on April 28 [10 favorites]
It's a miniature study of how accusations of antisemitism can fall apart when you look a little bit closer. I would urge people to fact check things posted by the NYT, taking care to distinguish anti-Zionism from antisemitism. There's a lot of that in their reporting.
posted by i like crows very much at 5:13 AM on April 28 [10 favorites]
🫠 CUNY not allowing toilet access: And @CUNY is going for using basic needs as a bargaining chip 🫠
We need to support these students. For those of us that are alums of these campuses, make our voices heard. I just called and told them that I will never send them a single alumni dollar if they don’t stop this. I know we can’t compete with the big hitters, but they should hear that a lot of small folks also are getting turned off from ever supporting these institutions.
posted by corb at 6:31 AM on April 28 [12 favorites]
We need to support these students. For those of us that are alums of these campuses, make our voices heard. I just called and told them that I will never send them a single alumni dollar if they don’t stop this. I know we can’t compete with the big hitters, but they should hear that a lot of small folks also are getting turned off from ever supporting these institutions.
posted by corb at 6:31 AM on April 28 [12 favorites]
“‘They're Obviously Not Antisemitic Protests’: Jewish Yale University Professor Speaks Out,” Staff, Zeteo, 28 April 2024
“War or Nothing,” A.R. Moxon, The Reframe, 28 April 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 8:58 AM on April 28 [9 favorites]
“War or Nothing,” A.R. Moxon, The Reframe, 28 April 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 8:58 AM on April 28 [9 favorites]
busted_crayons: fuck. i hope your friend and his family are okay.
corb: well, using basic needs as a bargaining chip sure is taking a cue from Israel, innit?
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:38 PM on April 28 [4 favorites]
corb: well, using basic needs as a bargaining chip sure is taking a cue from Israel, innit?
posted by adrienneleigh at 2:38 PM on April 28 [4 favorites]
The New York Review: "Storm Over Columbia," an interview with Nadia Abu El-Haj, Anthropologist at Barnard College and Columbia University and Co-director of the Center for Palestinian Studies:
If the students in the encampment at Columbia walked away today, they would still have won. It’s an extraordinary victory. They have shaken up Columbia and Barnard at an administrative level in a very serious way. They have stoked faculty opposition to the administration’s behavior. Most importantly, they’ve launched a national and, increasingly, an international movement. What I find shocking is the number of police crackdowns around the country to break up their own student encampments—because it worked so well at Columbia? You have to wonder, do these administrations learn nothing? Do they really think this is going to make students back down, rather than mobilize further?
I think something is going to come out of all this. Even if you don’t agree with the students’ politics, you need to recognize that this is a serious political movement and that they’re doing an awfully good job. It’s a generation that understands the genocide in Gaza as the great moral crisis of our time, and bringing the riot police onto Columbia’s campus was the final spark.
posted by i like crows very much at 6:23 PM on April 28 [7 favorites]
If the students in the encampment at Columbia walked away today, they would still have won. It’s an extraordinary victory. They have shaken up Columbia and Barnard at an administrative level in a very serious way. They have stoked faculty opposition to the administration’s behavior. Most importantly, they’ve launched a national and, increasingly, an international movement. What I find shocking is the number of police crackdowns around the country to break up their own student encampments—because it worked so well at Columbia? You have to wonder, do these administrations learn nothing? Do they really think this is going to make students back down, rather than mobilize further?
I think something is going to come out of all this. Even if you don’t agree with the students’ politics, you need to recognize that this is a serious political movement and that they’re doing an awfully good job. It’s a generation that understands the genocide in Gaza as the great moral crisis of our time, and bringing the riot police onto Columbia’s campus was the final spark.
posted by i like crows very much at 6:23 PM on April 28 [7 favorites]
“How Washington is responding to the campus Israel protests,” David Weigel, Semafor Americana, 26 April 2024
“WILSON | I Was Just Suspended by Cornell University. Here’s My Story,” Opinion Department, The Cornell Daily Sun, 27 April 2024
“Prisonculture: ‘I made a zine titled ‘White People Hate Protests’ which compiled opinion surveys from the 1960s. You can read it here and also share it with people who flap their gums about how so many people supported the tactics of the Black freedom movement of the 60s.: https://queer.archive.work/library/download/prisonculture/whitepeoplehateprotests.pdf?ref=organizingmythoughts.org’”—Bluesky Social, 28 April 2024
“The real rioters? Cops and college presidents.,” Marisa Kabas, The Handbasket, 28 April 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 7:07 PM on April 28 [14 favorites]
“WILSON | I Was Just Suspended by Cornell University. Here’s My Story,” Opinion Department, The Cornell Daily Sun, 27 April 2024
“Prisonculture: ‘I made a zine titled ‘White People Hate Protests’ which compiled opinion surveys from the 1960s. You can read it here and also share it with people who flap their gums about how so many people supported the tactics of the Black freedom movement of the 60s.: https://queer.archive.work/library/download/prisonculture/whitepeoplehateprotests.pdf?ref=organizingmythoughts.org’”—Bluesky Social, 28 April 2024
“The real rioters? Cops and college presidents.,” Marisa Kabas, The Handbasket, 28 April 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 7:07 PM on April 28 [14 favorites]
A map of all the student Palestine protests in North America, with links to each protest's demands
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 1:46 AM on April 29 [9 favorites]
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 1:46 AM on April 29 [9 favorites]
“Following Violent Police Crackdown of Anti-War Protests, Campus and Building Occupations Spread,” Staff, It's Going Down, 23 April 2024 (Updated 25 April 2024)
Setting aside the question of whether you think the protests are good or bad, it just seems so obvious to me that the use of disproportionate police power to try and crush the protests is going to have the opposite effect, because that is how it always is. It's such a clumsy move by the campus administrations that have done this and I'm surprised that so many are choosing to follow along. (Versus, say, some kind of cooptation approach, where you allow and contain the protests and frame it more as "awww, look at those cute idealistic students, so ineffective but isn't their commitment inspiring.")
It's kind of wild to me to keep seeing in real time how ostensibly smart and informed people repeatedly fall into obvious patterns that didn't work before and won't work now, like bringing the police onto campus, or reacting to extremist violence in ways that simply create new extremist recruits. There's near-zero learning from and taking lessons from the recent past.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:13 AM on April 29 [3 favorites]
Setting aside the question of whether you think the protests are good or bad, it just seems so obvious to me that the use of disproportionate police power to try and crush the protests is going to have the opposite effect, because that is how it always is. It's such a clumsy move by the campus administrations that have done this and I'm surprised that so many are choosing to follow along. (Versus, say, some kind of cooptation approach, where you allow and contain the protests and frame it more as "awww, look at those cute idealistic students, so ineffective but isn't their commitment inspiring.")
It's kind of wild to me to keep seeing in real time how ostensibly smart and informed people repeatedly fall into obvious patterns that didn't work before and won't work now, like bringing the police onto campus, or reacting to extremist violence in ways that simply create new extremist recruits. There's near-zero learning from and taking lessons from the recent past.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:13 AM on April 29 [3 favorites]
ob1quixote shared "War or Nothing" upthread
nothing surprises me about the managerial class and their capacity to make bad decisions
what percentage of young people will be radicalized by this? more than zero, I'd imagine. what percentage will become disengaged from conventional politics? we are losing the give and take of a pluralistic democracy.. more and more: zero sum
posted by elkevelvet at 7:37 AM on April 29 [2 favorites]
nothing surprises me about the managerial class and their capacity to make bad decisions
what percentage of young people will be radicalized by this? more than zero, I'd imagine. what percentage will become disengaged from conventional politics? we are losing the give and take of a pluralistic democracy.. more and more: zero sum
posted by elkevelvet at 7:37 AM on April 29 [2 favorites]
My feeling is that university presidents are performing for donors and the media - better to be seen to try with all their might to crush dissent than to do something equivocal, even a "let them march and chant until they wear themselves out and/or leave for the summer" strategy, which would be the cynical and more effective thing to do*. If they aren't seen to crush critics of Israel, they'll be accused of being pro-Palestine and that will have donor/media consequences, but if they're seen to be doing something, even if it's something stupid and destructive in the long term, they'll keep in with conservatives and donors, and the way our universities are now, that's what matters. President Compliant will be president for another year or two, then move on to being an even higher-paid president at an even fancier school, then maybe do some consulting for big money, etc. This is well-known and really works to discredit university administrations.
*Although one of the things that mainstream media, presidents, etc don't seem to grasp is that this is a much more intense matter than merely protesting over bans on BDS, the presence of the alt-right on campus or even labor issues. People are responding because there is literally video all the time of unarmed people being starved and killed in grotesque ways with blatant US support and weapons - it's like we're funding a snuff film and broadcasting it on everyone's phone. That's not something that people just give up on.
I would argue that it's also a protest fueled by the death politics of the last ten years or so - the total failure to address school shootings and mass murder, the total failure to address police killings and violence, the murder of an activist in the Cop City protests. The state has exposed itself to everyone who cares at all as just the most blatant, accelerating death machine. I think that police violence is key here - the way that the cops not only weren't defunded, they've been given more money, COVID money, and the way that no matter how visibly brutal and violent the police are, they always get a pass. The undemocratic defense of Cop City and the fact that more cop cities are getting proposed nationwide - it's really clear that they're anticipating having to crush dissent as things get worse. A lot of people who would probably have been left-wing or left-liberal in an engaged but not extremely militant way are now activated because the state no longer seems capable of even gesturing at justice or creating anything good at all.
posted by Frowner at 8:45 AM on April 29 [28 favorites]
*Although one of the things that mainstream media, presidents, etc don't seem to grasp is that this is a much more intense matter than merely protesting over bans on BDS, the presence of the alt-right on campus or even labor issues. People are responding because there is literally video all the time of unarmed people being starved and killed in grotesque ways with blatant US support and weapons - it's like we're funding a snuff film and broadcasting it on everyone's phone. That's not something that people just give up on.
I would argue that it's also a protest fueled by the death politics of the last ten years or so - the total failure to address school shootings and mass murder, the total failure to address police killings and violence, the murder of an activist in the Cop City protests. The state has exposed itself to everyone who cares at all as just the most blatant, accelerating death machine. I think that police violence is key here - the way that the cops not only weren't defunded, they've been given more money, COVID money, and the way that no matter how visibly brutal and violent the police are, they always get a pass. The undemocratic defense of Cop City and the fact that more cop cities are getting proposed nationwide - it's really clear that they're anticipating having to crush dissent as things get worse. A lot of people who would probably have been left-wing or left-liberal in an engaged but not extremely militant way are now activated because the state no longer seems capable of even gesturing at justice or creating anything good at all.
posted by Frowner at 8:45 AM on April 29 [28 favorites]
Like, it says a lot about someone when their response to the protests is, "this is just like that time when students felt that the cafeteria's low-quality banh mi were culturally offensive rather than just bad and there was a rally".
posted by Frowner at 8:49 AM on April 29 [9 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 8:49 AM on April 29 [9 favorites]
Per jon ben-menachem (who is, himself, at Columbia and working with the encampment):
Columbia University has notified members of the Gaza Solidarity Encampment that if they do not vacate by 2pm, the university will initiate mass evictions and interim suspensions. CUAD statement TK
(Screenshots of the notification document are in the tweet)
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:53 AM on April 29 [3 favorites]
Columbia University has notified members of the Gaza Solidarity Encampment that if they do not vacate by 2pm, the university will initiate mass evictions and interim suspensions. CUAD statement TK
(Screenshots of the notification document are in the tweet)
posted by adrienneleigh at 9:53 AM on April 29 [3 favorites]
, it turns out their argument depended on a particular reading of "the projects they have built" to mean Jews. This was very debatable.
It's a miniature study of how accusations of antisemitism can fall apart when you look a little bit closer. I would urge people to fact check things posted by the NYT, taking care to distinguish anti-Zionism from antisemitism. There's a lot of that in their reporting.
Cards on the table, my bias is that people online talking about killing Zionists in the streets are probably not committed anti-fascists, and are liable to be antisemites. Maybe this guy is an exception, I hope he is and that he's learned something from his experiences in the last several months.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:03 AM on April 29 [1 favorite]
It's a miniature study of how accusations of antisemitism can fall apart when you look a little bit closer. I would urge people to fact check things posted by the NYT, taking care to distinguish anti-Zionism from antisemitism. There's a lot of that in their reporting.
Cards on the table, my bias is that people online talking about killing Zionists in the streets are probably not committed anti-fascists, and are liable to be antisemites. Maybe this guy is an exception, I hope he is and that he's learned something from his experiences in the last several months.
posted by BungaDunga at 10:03 AM on April 29 [1 favorite]
"this is just like that time when students felt that the cafeteria's low-quality banh mi were culturally offensive rather than just bad and there was a rally".
A story that was essentially concern trolling bullshit.
posted by Artw at 10:23 AM on April 29 [4 favorites]
A story that was essentially concern trolling bullshit.
posted by Artw at 10:23 AM on April 29 [4 favorites]
One of the most famous incidents of campus outrage was totally misrepresented
How a single article in Oberlin’s student paper about food got turned into a major national controversy — and why this matters.
posted by Artw at 10:56 AM on April 29 [4 favorites]
How a single article in Oberlin’s student paper about food got turned into a major national controversy — and why this matters.
posted by Artw at 10:56 AM on April 29 [4 favorites]
Yes, exactly - it's something that was an internal matter that was debated on campus and, as even Vox said, a "minor, easily resolved issue". Equating minor campus disagreements that matter mostly to the students with the present situation is what I'm seeing a lot from mainstream twitter, with the tone of "this is a minor student opinion matter and yet students are rioting over it, stupid students have no sense of proportion". It's the depraved inability to understand the difference between student responses to cafeteria food concerns and student responses to genocide which is worth flagging to me. A normal person could have kind of stupid opinions about, eg, cultural appropriation and still understand that genocide demands a moral response. The whole thing comes from this absolute racist, Islamophobic indifference to Palestinian lives, where they're worth nothing more than a sandwich.
On another note, the UMN has just sent a security notification that the core East Bank part of campus will be closed at 2pm today, which leads me to believe either that the crackdown is happening right now or it's on the docket for today, also that they don't want students taking over any buildings. Partly this seems inevitable because the UMN simply isn't going to want to divest for financial and financial/political (don't want to seem left-wing to right-wing donors) reasons, and so it has to come to this, but on the other you always hope for a little better from institutions you have some positive feelings about.
posted by Frowner at 11:08 AM on April 29 [7 favorites]
On another note, the UMN has just sent a security notification that the core East Bank part of campus will be closed at 2pm today, which leads me to believe either that the crackdown is happening right now or it's on the docket for today, also that they don't want students taking over any buildings. Partly this seems inevitable because the UMN simply isn't going to want to divest for financial and financial/political (don't want to seem left-wing to right-wing donors) reasons, and so it has to come to this, but on the other you always hope for a little better from institutions you have some positive feelings about.
posted by Frowner at 11:08 AM on April 29 [7 favorites]
the UMN simply isn't going to want to divest for financial and financial/political (don't want to seem left-wing to right-wing donors) reasons, and so it has to come to this
I think this is actually both the genius and the tragedy of these protests.
They are asking for something eminently reasonable: put your money where your mouth is, and don't invest in companies actively contributing to genocide. But the thing is - these universities are often a velvet glove of progressivism over a ruthless capitalist fist. They will grant any feel-good measures that don't involve them risking their bottom line - but take not a single step that affects that bottom line. And this does affect the bottom line, both in terms of losing right wing (and liberal Zionist) donors, and also in terms of having to pull out of mutual funds and actually have brokers that pay attention to specific requests.
It's why I think the universities are unlikely to give in - but I also think it's good to highlight just how far they are willing to go. Care about students? No, they're willing to risk their students' entire futures rather than have their pristine commencement pictures interfered with by an encampment.
posted by corb at 11:14 AM on April 29 [8 favorites]
I think this is actually both the genius and the tragedy of these protests.
They are asking for something eminently reasonable: put your money where your mouth is, and don't invest in companies actively contributing to genocide. But the thing is - these universities are often a velvet glove of progressivism over a ruthless capitalist fist. They will grant any feel-good measures that don't involve them risking their bottom line - but take not a single step that affects that bottom line. And this does affect the bottom line, both in terms of losing right wing (and liberal Zionist) donors, and also in terms of having to pull out of mutual funds and actually have brokers that pay attention to specific requests.
It's why I think the universities are unlikely to give in - but I also think it's good to highlight just how far they are willing to go. Care about students? No, they're willing to risk their students' entire futures rather than have their pristine commencement pictures interfered with by an encampment.
posted by corb at 11:14 AM on April 29 [8 favorites]
“Six Things You Need to Know About the Growing Anti-War Movement,” It's Going Down, 28 April 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 11:28 AM on April 29 [3 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 11:28 AM on April 29 [3 favorites]
It's the depraved inability to understand the difference between student responses to cafeteria food concerns and student responses to genocide which is worth flagging to me. A normal person could have kind of stupid opinions about, eg, cultural appropriation and still understand that genocide demands a moral response. The whole thing comes from this absolute racist, Islamophobic indifference to Palestinian lives, where they're worth nothing more than a sandwich.
Not just that but the absolutely insane idea that students are only protesting genocide because of Russian propaganda, rather than the crimes against humanity they've seen documented on social media for over six months now (floated by out-of-touch clowns like Nancy Pelosi, among others).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:36 AM on April 29 [16 favorites]
Not just that but the absolutely insane idea that students are only protesting genocide because of Russian propaganda, rather than the crimes against humanity they've seen documented on social media for over six months now (floated by out-of-touch clowns like Nancy Pelosi, among others).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:36 AM on April 29 [16 favorites]
The state really is a death machine, and it produces the kind of people who can be like "yes, we need to send one billion dollars to a country so that they can drop white phosphorus on two million trapped and starving people, that is completely normal and reasonable and if you object you're a bigot or a dupe". The idea that a morally alive person might see some terrified little child get sniped or someone getting maggots in their wounds because there's no treatment and want it to stop escapes them. That they might want it to stop even though there are other evils in the world also confuses them. Presumably our leaders march down the beach stomping the beached starfish - why save one when there are thousands beached, in fact, since there are thousands beached elsewhere it's actually virtuous to kill the ones in front of you.
This whole thing reminds me of going to do distro at a homeless encampment in the winter a year or so ago. It was this horrible mixture of mud and ice and garbage, and tents on top of the mud and ice and garbage, and yet this was a relatively safe encampment due to its location. It just produced such strong feelings of emergency in me, like the morally normal thing should be to scramble medical and logistical assistance because regardless of everything else, no one should be living on a heap of mud and ice and rot. But we don't, and most people are baffled that anyone would even see anything wrong with the situation other than the inconvenience it presents to homeowners. Death machine all the way, zombie-producing death machine.
posted by Frowner at 11:47 AM on April 29 [27 favorites]
This whole thing reminds me of going to do distro at a homeless encampment in the winter a year or so ago. It was this horrible mixture of mud and ice and garbage, and tents on top of the mud and ice and garbage, and yet this was a relatively safe encampment due to its location. It just produced such strong feelings of emergency in me, like the morally normal thing should be to scramble medical and logistical assistance because regardless of everything else, no one should be living on a heap of mud and ice and rot. But we don't, and most people are baffled that anyone would even see anything wrong with the situation other than the inconvenience it presents to homeowners. Death machine all the way, zombie-producing death machine.
posted by Frowner at 11:47 AM on April 29 [27 favorites]
A fun experiment is to read all the media coverage about the protests without knowing anything about what the students are actually protesting. I can then see how someone could come away with “wow these kids are being unruly and unreasonable”. Then reveal to the reader that what they’re protesting is the murder of ten thousand children. Wow! What a reveal. The students are being incredibly tame and the administrators are savages! Like in all the media coverage it gets lost how severe this crime is. Would any of the hand wringing about mean students continue if it was 50 thousand murdered kids? 100,000? A million? I think it would, but only if the ones who are murdered are Palestinians.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:04 PM on April 29 [15 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:04 PM on April 29 [15 favorites]
Apparently Democratic Congressional representatives think it's okay to send a letter asking Columbia to brutalize its students.
I'm going to be honest. Anyone who participated in calling for shutting down these protests is going to have to make an apology tour over the metaphorical equivalent of broken glass before they ever get a single dollar or vote from me, and this is the prevailing mood among my peers. So go ahead, Dems, keep burning the fucking seed corn.
posted by corb at 1:54 PM on April 29 [22 favorites]
I'm going to be honest. Anyone who participated in calling for shutting down these protests is going to have to make an apology tour over the metaphorical equivalent of broken glass before they ever get a single dollar or vote from me, and this is the prevailing mood among my peers. So go ahead, Dems, keep burning the fucking seed corn.
posted by corb at 1:54 PM on April 29 [22 favorites]
fucking Dems
posted by kokaku at 3:57 PM on April 29 [3 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 3:57 PM on April 29 [3 favorites]
“There’s a Sniper on the Roof of the School Where I Studied Authoritarianism,” Sarah Kendzior, Sarah Kendzior’s Newsletter, 29 April 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 6:01 PM on April 29 [9 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 6:01 PM on April 29 [9 favorites]
Apparently Democratic Congressional representatives think it's okay to send a letter asking Columbia to brutalize its students.
Lot of signatories here who should absolutely know better. Getting increasingly hard to take Adam Schiff seriously for example. Just glad I don't see my local reps on the list.
I do see fucking Bob Menendez though, out there courageously tackling the issues of the day. Sit the fuck down, Bob.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 6:04 PM on April 29 [9 favorites]
Lot of signatories here who should absolutely know better. Getting increasingly hard to take Adam Schiff seriously for example. Just glad I don't see my local reps on the list.
I do see fucking Bob Menendez though, out there courageously tackling the issues of the day. Sit the fuck down, Bob.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 6:04 PM on April 29 [9 favorites]
He's probably already sitting, the gold bars in his jacket pockets get heavy.
posted by Justinian at 6:43 PM on April 29 [2 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 6:43 PM on April 29 [2 favorites]
“Storming colleges with riot cops to keep them ‘safe’ should scare America about what’s next,” Will Bunch, The Philadelphia Inquirer, 28 April 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 8:49 PM on April 29 [11 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 8:49 PM on April 29 [11 favorites]
They are asking for something eminently reasonable: put your money where your mouth is, and don't invest in companies actively contributing to genocide. But the thing is - these universities are often a velvet glove of progressivism over a ruthless capitalist fist. They will grant any feel-good measures that don't involve them risking their bottom line - but take not a single step that affects that bottom line. And this does affect the bottom line, both in terms of losing right wing (and liberal Zionist) donors, and also in terms of having to pull out of mutual funds and actually have brokers that pay attention to specific requests.All the more remarkable given that public universities are supposed to serve the public benefit and the private ones attracting all the attention aren't exactly hurting for cash or answerable to shareholders. Even the cases where BDS has been made illegal in the state, schools have the resources to fight it in court instead of being enthusiastic enforcers. How much of steering universities away from their core mission of education can be attributed to the explosion in administrators hijacking a gravy train?
posted by ndr at 9:10 PM on April 29 [4 favorites]
Holy fuck Nancy Pelosi on TV actually saying "There were protests against the Vietnam war and Nixon won, and protests against the Iraq War and Bush won." as a reason why Biden doesn't have to pay attention to these protests.
posted by corb at 2:30 AM on April 30 [16 favorites]
posted by corb at 2:30 AM on April 30 [16 favorites]
Did the US win the Vietnam war? I've always thought about it as like, one of the incidentally cool things about being a leftist, at least we won that war against the seppo tyrant and their allies. My sister went to see the tomb of Ho Chi Minh a couple of weeks ago. I will only be visiting Nixon's grave if it has particularly poor security.
Also, since Carter gave the go-ahead to giving the Taliban their big headstart, if I was angry because I'd swallowed some wild Zionist conception that terrorism committed by Islamic people means all "Arab" people are worthy of a new Srebrenica, I'm not sure I think he deserves any better.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:43 AM on April 30 [2 favorites]
Also, since Carter gave the go-ahead to giving the Taliban their big headstart, if I was angry because I'd swallowed some wild Zionist conception that terrorism committed by Islamic people means all "Arab" people are worthy of a new Srebrenica, I'm not sure I think he deserves any better.
posted by Audreynachrome at 3:43 AM on April 30 [2 favorites]
I think there was a non insignificant number of right leaning centrist who did vote for Nixon because they really hated the protests. I just don’t see anything like that happening for Biden. The more salient Biden’s enablement of genocide is, the worse it is for Biden. He doesn’t have my vote anymore.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:15 AM on April 30 [7 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 4:15 AM on April 30 [7 favorites]
Glad to see that my local dems are on the right side of history. I look forward to this November when I get to vote for a city council member who has been providing jail support for students.
Yesterday here at UT Austin, three police forces swarmed campus and deployed flashbangs and mace against students. The weather was terrible, and even as someone who is heat tolerant, I was struggling. The medics had to take several people away for dehydration and heat-related issues. The students who were instead taken away by cops had to sit in jail, dehydrated and without water for hours. I heard of some people getting a drink twelve hours after arrests started.
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:22 AM on April 30 [7 favorites]
Yesterday here at UT Austin, three police forces swarmed campus and deployed flashbangs and mace against students. The weather was terrible, and even as someone who is heat tolerant, I was struggling. The medics had to take several people away for dehydration and heat-related issues. The students who were instead taken away by cops had to sit in jail, dehydrated and without water for hours. I heard of some people getting a drink twelve hours after arrests started.
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:22 AM on April 30 [7 favorites]
Holy fuck Nancy Pelosi on TV actually saying "There were protests against the Vietnam war and Nixon won, and protests against the Iraq War and Bush won."
This is The Onion breaking through into reality again, isn't it?
I hate it when that happens. Fuck Global Tetrahedron.
posted by flabdablet at 6:17 AM on April 30 [5 favorites]
This is The Onion breaking through into reality again, isn't it?
I hate it when that happens. Fuck Global Tetrahedron.
posted by flabdablet at 6:17 AM on April 30 [5 favorites]
The other thing that Pelosi has possibly missed here is that it's not really safe to assume that massive student protests are no impediment to the incumbent winning, when the very same examples she cites could just as easily be interpreted as showing that massive student protests are no impediment to the Republican winning.
oh, the temper of the time
posted by flabdablet at 7:10 AM on April 30 [5 favorites]
oh, the temper of the time
posted by flabdablet at 7:10 AM on April 30 [5 favorites]
Lot of signatories here who should absolutely know better.
I just got off the phone with NC Dem Wiley Nickel's office, telling them how disappointed I was in his name on that letter, mentioning the far-right Netanyahu government does not speak for me as an American Jew and the students were absolutely correct to protest the ongoing brutal murders. I had high hopes for him as a progressive, but no more.
I encourage everyone in this thread to immediately call their representatives to emphasize how much you do not want them signing letters like this.
posted by mediareport at 7:20 AM on April 30 [10 favorites]
I just got off the phone with NC Dem Wiley Nickel's office, telling them how disappointed I was in his name on that letter, mentioning the far-right Netanyahu government does not speak for me as an American Jew and the students were absolutely correct to protest the ongoing brutal murders. I had high hopes for him as a progressive, but no more.
I encourage everyone in this thread to immediately call their representatives to emphasize how much you do not want them signing letters like this.
posted by mediareport at 7:20 AM on April 30 [10 favorites]
if you are going to talk big about democracy in the world and act like you invented it, but your actions look like Russia with a few more steps, my question is: why bother
I think the elite has reached that 'why bother' stage
posted by elkevelvet at 7:26 AM on April 30 [3 favorites]
I think the elite has reached that 'why bother' stage
posted by elkevelvet at 7:26 AM on April 30 [3 favorites]
Global Breakdown of International Law Amid Flagrant War Crimes in Gaza & Beyond, Says Amnesty Chief (Democracy Now!, YouTube/Piped/Invidious, 23m21s)
posted by flabdablet at 7:35 AM on April 30 [8 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 7:35 AM on April 30 [8 favorites]
With this business the Democrats are doing as much to harm democracy in this country as the Republicans. Just on the most reform-lib level, people don't have confidence in the government if the government gratuitously ignores the popular will on an important and widely understood issue. Most Americans don't like the present state of US support of Israel. This probably isn't the same as "most Americans share my views and support Palestinian liberation", but watching your own side send billions in arms so that another country can starve and snipe babies is going to dismay and disgust most people. More so when things are going to shit here at home.
The most indifferent person eventually starts wondering why it's billions for Israel and millions for police brutality insurance but we can't get prices down or have anything nice.
~~
The thing is, for years we've been destroying faith in democracy - I don't mean anything grand, just people's general sense that the government can do good and at least attempts to understand and enact the popular will. The GOP does this intentionally as a strategy; the Democrats do it because they're greedy and don't really care if the country collapses as long as they've made their fortunes.
People may indeed hold their noses and re-elect Biden if the alternative is Trump, but that really, really doesn't mean that the system is working. It means that more and more people see the federal government as something like bad weather - you can't get rid of it, you can't change it, all you can do is protect yourself from it as much as possible. This is absolutely the consequence of the perpetual "vote blue no matter who" rhetoric. People who are voting "don't let Trump kill me by withholding maternal care" do not have a positive vision or any sense of their country as worthwhile.
If we're lucky, this is just how the country comes apart into relatively well-governed states and absolute grifter cesspits like Florida. If we're not lucky, god knows - absolute tyranny at the federal level and the de facto collapse of the states, actual civil war.
Depravity is just what this is, absolute hellbound depravity - we have a government that is willing to destroy America's democratic possibilities and murder untold thousands of Palestinians so that our elite class can buddy up to arms manufacturers and a fascist donor class.
posted by Frowner at 7:55 AM on April 30 [33 favorites]
The most indifferent person eventually starts wondering why it's billions for Israel and millions for police brutality insurance but we can't get prices down or have anything nice.
~~
The thing is, for years we've been destroying faith in democracy - I don't mean anything grand, just people's general sense that the government can do good and at least attempts to understand and enact the popular will. The GOP does this intentionally as a strategy; the Democrats do it because they're greedy and don't really care if the country collapses as long as they've made their fortunes.
People may indeed hold their noses and re-elect Biden if the alternative is Trump, but that really, really doesn't mean that the system is working. It means that more and more people see the federal government as something like bad weather - you can't get rid of it, you can't change it, all you can do is protect yourself from it as much as possible. This is absolutely the consequence of the perpetual "vote blue no matter who" rhetoric. People who are voting "don't let Trump kill me by withholding maternal care" do not have a positive vision or any sense of their country as worthwhile.
If we're lucky, this is just how the country comes apart into relatively well-governed states and absolute grifter cesspits like Florida. If we're not lucky, god knows - absolute tyranny at the federal level and the de facto collapse of the states, actual civil war.
Depravity is just what this is, absolute hellbound depravity - we have a government that is willing to destroy America's democratic possibilities and murder untold thousands of Palestinians so that our elite class can buddy up to arms manufacturers and a fascist donor class.
posted by Frowner at 7:55 AM on April 30 [33 favorites]
People may indeed hold their noses and re-elect Biden if the alternative is Trump, but that really, really doesn't mean that the system is working.
It's working just fine for the lizards, which is only to be expected. There's a reason why all the Founding Fathers are only ever pictured with very high necklines.
posted by flabdablet at 10:43 AM on April 30
It's working just fine for the lizards, which is only to be expected. There's a reason why all the Founding Fathers are only ever pictured with very high necklines.
posted by flabdablet at 10:43 AM on April 30
Colombia protesters broke into Hamilton Hall last night and are occupying it until their demands are met. They have renamed the hall Hinds Hall, after a 6-year-old Palestinian child that was murdered in a bombardment by Israeli occupying forces.
And because I don't see it up thread, Angela Davis visited Auraria Campus (a Colorado University) to celebrate students’ persistence in calling for a cease-fire in Gaza.
I don't know about y'all, but if I found myself on the opposing side of a protest movement championed by Angela Davis, I would rethink a lot of things for a long long time.
posted by CPAnarchist at 11:09 AM on April 30 [18 favorites]
And because I don't see it up thread, Angela Davis visited Auraria Campus (a Colorado University) to celebrate students’ persistence in calling for a cease-fire in Gaza.
I don't know about y'all, but if I found myself on the opposing side of a protest movement championed by Angela Davis, I would rethink a lot of things for a long long time.
posted by CPAnarchist at 11:09 AM on April 30 [18 favorites]
“White House denounces Columbia protesters’ occupation of campus building ,” Caroline Anders, Semafor, 30 April 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 11:41 AM on April 30 [1 favorite]
posted by ob1quixote at 11:41 AM on April 30 [1 favorite]
WaPo: Journalism professors call on New York Times to review Oct. 7 report
The College Democrats and Fairfax Democrats have denounced the campus crackdown
Mounted police deployed at Tulane
Arrests at University of Southern Florida
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:44 AM on April 30 [1 favorite]
The College Democrats and Fairfax Democrats have denounced the campus crackdown
Mounted police deployed at Tulane
Arrests at University of Southern Florida
posted by Noisy Pink Bubbles at 11:44 AM on April 30 [1 favorite]
Brown commits to a vote on divestment: The University agreed that five students will be invited to meet with five members of the Corporation of Brown University in May to present their arguments to divest Brown’s endowment from “companies enabling and profiting from the genocide in Gaza.” In addition, Paxson will ask the Advisory Committee on University Resources Management to provide a recommendation on the matter of divestment by Sept. 30, and this will be brought to the Corporation for a vote at its October 2024 meeting.
Apparently CA has an anti-divestment law signed into law by Jerry Brown. The CA Republican Senate candidate Steve Garvey called the protesters "terrorists" and meanwhile Democratic candidate Adam Schiff called the protests antisemitic: “Jewish students need to both be safe and feel safe on their college campuses — but that will never be the case as long as universities allow hateful, antisemitic rhetoric, or even violence, to be tolerated,” Schiff said in the statement. “The participation of faculty or administrative personnel in antisemitic demonstrations is even more malignant… .I stand firm in condemning antisemitism in all its forms and affirm the need to ensure the safety and inclusion of all students on campus.”
posted by toastyk at 12:38 PM on April 30 [6 favorites]
Apparently CA has an anti-divestment law signed into law by Jerry Brown. The CA Republican Senate candidate Steve Garvey called the protesters "terrorists" and meanwhile Democratic candidate Adam Schiff called the protests antisemitic: “Jewish students need to both be safe and feel safe on their college campuses — but that will never be the case as long as universities allow hateful, antisemitic rhetoric, or even violence, to be tolerated,” Schiff said in the statement. “The participation of faculty or administrative personnel in antisemitic demonstrations is even more malignant… .I stand firm in condemning antisemitism in all its forms and affirm the need to ensure the safety and inclusion of all students on campus.”
posted by toastyk at 12:38 PM on April 30 [6 favorites]
Apparently Biden is now saying that the word "intifada" is hate speech, which is...a choice, I fucking guess.
posted by corb at 1:12 PM on April 30 [15 favorites]
posted by corb at 1:12 PM on April 30 [15 favorites]
Also we now have a history professor hospitalized with broken ribs and hand from a police beating at Wash U in St. Louis.
posted by corb at 1:39 PM on April 30 [4 favorites]
posted by corb at 1:39 PM on April 30 [4 favorites]
CA Republican Senate candidate Steve Garvey called the protesters "terrorists" and meanwhile Democratic candidate Adam Schiff called the protests antisemitic
Garvey is a fascist clown and Schiff is an AIPAC stooge. Many of the protesters are in fact Jewish, which is consistently elided in media reporting and politcal bloviating.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:42 PM on April 30 [5 favorites]
Garvey is a fascist clown and Schiff is an AIPAC stooge. Many of the protesters are in fact Jewish, which is consistently elided in media reporting and politcal bloviating.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:42 PM on April 30 [5 favorites]
That Wash U footage is fucking wild.
posted by kensington314 at 2:45 PM on April 30
posted by kensington314 at 2:45 PM on April 30
Garvey is a fascist clown and Schiff is an AIPAC stooge.
Schiff is in an interesting place; he has a firm political base in the LA County Armenian community and has relied on this community for support over the years. This is all happening in the shadow of the recent blow-up of the Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, which the Armenian community considers an act of anti-Armenian ethnic cleansing or even genocide. Now, we're seeing Republic of Artsakh flags flying alongside Palestinian flags at these protests. I'm surprised Schiff said anything so committal.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:17 PM on April 30 [2 favorites]
Schiff is in an interesting place; he has a firm political base in the LA County Armenian community and has relied on this community for support over the years. This is all happening in the shadow of the recent blow-up of the Artsakh/Nagorno-Karabakh conflict, which the Armenian community considers an act of anti-Armenian ethnic cleansing or even genocide. Now, we're seeing Republic of Artsakh flags flying alongside Palestinian flags at these protests. I'm surprised Schiff said anything so committal.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:17 PM on April 30 [2 favorites]
The NYPD is clearing the occupied building on Columbia's campus. Columbia shut down campus and issued a shelter-in-place order today so this was not unexpected.
posted by Wretch729 at 6:51 PM on April 30
posted by Wretch729 at 6:51 PM on April 30
UNC Faculty member: “I don’t think I will ever get over what I saw my employer do to its own students and faculty today.”
posted by audi alteram partem at 8:30 PM on April 30 [9 favorites]
posted by audi alteram partem at 8:30 PM on April 30 [9 favorites]
It's so fucking infuriating, how Democratic leaders from Biden all the way down just cheerfully accept and echo the right-wing position that any defense of Palestine or condemnation of the violence in Gaza is indistinguishable from antisemitism. There's no pushback anywhere, they just cede that position right out of the gate. Everywhere I look it's someone with a D next to their name condemning these protests for antisemitism, when it's common knowledge (though mysteriously omitted from reporting somehow!) that some of the earliest and most passionate participants in these protests are Jewish students who cannot accept the violence that Israel is perpetrating in their name.
I'm sure Greenblatt and his ADL pals are thankful, not to mention Bibi and his bloodthirsty cabinet. It certainly saves them a lot of time and effort when even the leaders who might be expected to both know better and say so just blithely accept this skewed framing and run with it.
I've said it before in jest but more and more I'm thinking, let's get Biden elected, and then on January 21, let's start impeachment proceedings. We can't afford for him not to win in November, but we also can't afford to turn a blind eye to enthusiastic support for genocide. Someone has got to be held accountable. The alternative is intolerable.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 8:59 PM on April 30 [11 favorites]
I'm sure Greenblatt and his ADL pals are thankful, not to mention Bibi and his bloodthirsty cabinet. It certainly saves them a lot of time and effort when even the leaders who might be expected to both know better and say so just blithely accept this skewed framing and run with it.
I've said it before in jest but more and more I'm thinking, let's get Biden elected, and then on January 21, let's start impeachment proceedings. We can't afford for him not to win in November, but we also can't afford to turn a blind eye to enthusiastic support for genocide. Someone has got to be held accountable. The alternative is intolerable.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 8:59 PM on April 30 [11 favorites]
let's get Biden elected
That ship has sailed. Muslim voters in Michigan hate Biden and wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire. That stupid grinning motherfucker thought that supporting genocide wouldn't be a major deal-breaker and they'd have to come around because "Trump is worse". Unfortunately for him after six months of enthusiastic support for genocide and dehumanisation of Palestinians, they don't see it that way.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:11 PM on April 30 [11 favorites]
That ship has sailed. Muslim voters in Michigan hate Biden and wouldn't piss on him if he were on fire. That stupid grinning motherfucker thought that supporting genocide wouldn't be a major deal-breaker and they'd have to come around because "Trump is worse". Unfortunately for him after six months of enthusiastic support for genocide and dehumanisation of Palestinians, they don't see it that way.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 9:11 PM on April 30 [11 favorites]
I'm hoping Biden can still eke out a win, with or without Michigan, but at this point I can't blame Muslim voters who can't bring themselves to support him, and if Biden loses, there'll be no one to blame but himself. He's certainly not winning any converts among the 18-24 demographic this week either.
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 9:18 PM on April 30 [4 favorites]
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 9:18 PM on April 30 [4 favorites]
It's so fucking infuriating, how Democratic leaders from Biden all the way down just cheerfully accept and echo the right-wing position that any defense of Palestine or condemnation of the violence in Gaza is indistinguishable from antisemitism. There's no pushback anywhere, they just cede that position right out of the gate.
It's "Saddam kicked out the weapons inspectors" all over again.
posted by flabdablet at 9:33 PM on April 30 [9 favorites]
It's "Saddam kicked out the weapons inspectors" all over again.
posted by flabdablet at 9:33 PM on April 30 [9 favorites]
let's get Biden elected
I'm sorry, but at this point, I will not vote for Biden if the alternative is literal Voldemort, and the entire Democratic party is going to have to do some fucking work if they would like to convince me to vote or donate to them ever fucking again. And I mean ever. If the Democrats are going to endorse sending riot cops to break the heads of our young people who are protesting a genocide then I simply do not see enough of a difference between the smiling face and the scowling face of hell, and I think I owe my leftist comrades who have been telling me I am a fool to vote for Democrats a fucking apology.
posted by corb at 10:06 PM on April 30 [13 favorites]
I'm sorry, but at this point, I will not vote for Biden if the alternative is literal Voldemort, and the entire Democratic party is going to have to do some fucking work if they would like to convince me to vote or donate to them ever fucking again. And I mean ever. If the Democrats are going to endorse sending riot cops to break the heads of our young people who are protesting a genocide then I simply do not see enough of a difference between the smiling face and the scowling face of hell, and I think I owe my leftist comrades who have been telling me I am a fool to vote for Democrats a fucking apology.
posted by corb at 10:06 PM on April 30 [13 favorites]
I simply do not see enough of a difference between the smiling face and the scowling face of hell
Warren Ellis's an asshole in his own regard (to put it mildly), but I keep coming back to his Transmetropolitan arc of The Beast vs. The Smiler.
The Beast is the incumbent, portrayed as Nixon & Kissinger & Cheney blended together and poured into a chisel-jawed "A hard job requires a hard man" archetype. "an animal squatting in the heart of America... the thing in us that votes to fuck other people in the gall bladder, the lizard brain that says nothing but eat-kill-hump-shit", with a monologue about "getting through the day", doing what's just required to ensure that 51% of the population survives & continues to vote for him because as he sees it that's as much as he *can* do.
And then you've got The Smiler. Everything to everybody, theoretically more innocuous at first because at least he's not The Beast?, but proving to be more actively malicious, not interested in even the 51% idea of the Beast but out to use the power of the office to further personal ends. Third Way politics writ large.
I don't actually know where to go with this from here. All that was published from 1997-2002, well before my time. But it keeps coming to mind.
posted by CrystalDave at 11:01 PM on April 30 [5 favorites]
Warren Ellis's an asshole in his own regard (to put it mildly), but I keep coming back to his Transmetropolitan arc of The Beast vs. The Smiler.
The Beast is the incumbent, portrayed as Nixon & Kissinger & Cheney blended together and poured into a chisel-jawed "A hard job requires a hard man" archetype. "an animal squatting in the heart of America... the thing in us that votes to fuck other people in the gall bladder, the lizard brain that says nothing but eat-kill-hump-shit", with a monologue about "getting through the day", doing what's just required to ensure that 51% of the population survives & continues to vote for him because as he sees it that's as much as he *can* do.
And then you've got The Smiler. Everything to everybody, theoretically more innocuous at first because at least he's not The Beast?, but proving to be more actively malicious, not interested in even the 51% idea of the Beast but out to use the power of the office to further personal ends. Third Way politics writ large.
I don't actually know where to go with this from here. All that was published from 1997-2002, well before my time. But it keeps coming to mind.
posted by CrystalDave at 11:01 PM on April 30 [5 favorites]
Mod note: Several deleted: let's drop the Biden vs. Trump derail, there's plenty of opportunity for that now and in the coming months.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 11:44 PM on April 30 [3 favorites]
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane (staff) at 11:44 PM on April 30 [3 favorites]
Mirabile dictu! Auntie just gave Antony Loewenstein a run on its drive time hour, which he used to hammer the point that pro-Palestine protests are not only no threat to Jewish students but are in large part organized by Jewish students.
The electric fence will surely kick in almost immediately, so supportive feedback to Radio National would be helpful. Contact details are behind the "Auntie" link above.
The segment was only just broadcast and has not yet been published online. I'll link to it when (if?) it appears.
posted by flabdablet at 12:47 AM on May 1 [5 favorites]
The electric fence will surely kick in almost immediately, so supportive feedback to Radio National would be helpful. Contact details are behind the "Auntie" link above.
The segment was only just broadcast and has not yet been published online. I'll link to it when (if?) it appears.
posted by flabdablet at 12:47 AM on May 1 [5 favorites]
Pro-Palestinian protests spread across Australian universities (RN Drive, 9m)
posted by flabdablet at 12:56 AM on May 1 [2 favorites]
posted by flabdablet at 12:56 AM on May 1 [2 favorites]
I'll be honest, I sat down and cried for about twenty minutes this morning as I watched the occupations in New York get broken by riot police; first Columbia, and then CUNY. In New York fucking City, stronghold of the Dems, my home stomping ground. Unconscious students lying on the ground. NYPD casually texting "thought we fucking shot someone" to their buddies. These kids aren't much older than I was when I went to war, and they're in one. And they aren't going to get benefits when they get back; they're going to be lucky to get out without criminal convictions.
For those of you who lived through the 60s, what was the aftermath of this stuff like then?
posted by corb at 1:27 AM on May 1 [10 favorites]
For those of you who lived through the 60s, what was the aftermath of this stuff like then?
posted by corb at 1:27 AM on May 1 [10 favorites]
As someone who didn't live through the '60s, this year's Democratic convention is probably going to be very reminiscent of Chicago' 68 (assuming the Dems don't go the fully remote route like they did 4 years ago, because of cowardice rather than covid this time).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:10 AM on May 1 [3 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:10 AM on May 1 [3 favorites]
And, happening now, armed Zionist thugs attacking protesters at UCLA and aiming fireworks at them.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:25 AM on May 1 [5 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 2:25 AM on May 1 [5 favorites]
Close up of Pro-Israel counterprotestors at UCLA beating pro-Palestinian protestor (warning: slurs, violence)
If the roles were reversed this would be plastered all over to label all the protests as anti-semitic but since it's not, I'm sure it'll be dismissed as "violence" and even more reason to disperse the protests, as if both sides are equally responsible.
posted by ndr at 2:38 AM on May 1 [18 favorites]
If the roles were reversed this would be plastered all over to label all the protests as anti-semitic but since it's not, I'm sure it'll be dismissed as "violence" and even more reason to disperse the protests, as if both sides are equally responsible.
posted by ndr at 2:38 AM on May 1 [18 favorites]
truly and emphatically fuck the police. also any journalist who thinks "rival groups clash" is a good way to describe protesters being attacked by masked armed fascists.
posted by busted_crayons at 2:42 AM on May 1 [13 favorites]
posted by busted_crayons at 2:42 AM on May 1 [13 favorites]
For those of you who lived through the 60s, what was the aftermath of this stuff like then?
richard nixon and a discredited democratic party, not to mention alienated youth
then, after the impeachment of richard nixon a republican party that is still looking for revenge
i don't want to dwell on it, but we really don't have an anti-fascist party left in this country
posted by pyramid termite at 3:37 AM on May 1 [6 favorites]
richard nixon and a discredited democratic party, not to mention alienated youth
then, after the impeachment of richard nixon a republican party that is still looking for revenge
i don't want to dwell on it, but we really don't have an anti-fascist party left in this country
posted by pyramid termite at 3:37 AM on May 1 [6 favorites]
The last couple of days have been unrelenting - too bad the tiktok ban isn't coming in quickly enough for the establishment, or else there'd be enough breathing space to distract with a whataboutism, once they can find someone foolish enough to (only) say something problematic.
Because genuine antisemitic tropes and grifters are being fucking normalized as we speak (eg Jackson Hinkle; white suburban mom tiktoks casually using "zios" and interchangeably using "Jews" and "Zionists" even as they are supporting the students) but the defenders of Israel would rather spend time cosplaying Kahanists in East Jerusalem on uni grounds apparently or random stupid batshit memes like waving bananas around because it's been made known that one of the student organizers have a banana allergy, and call that as an intifada against antisemitism, except not because Arabic is a scary language.
But we can't actually address the antisemites, we're too busy beating kids up. At least not (generally) fatally. Then it's not cosplay anymore, just a straightforward remake.
posted by cendawanita at 4:54 AM on May 1 [10 favorites]
Because genuine antisemitic tropes and grifters are being fucking normalized as we speak (eg Jackson Hinkle; white suburban mom tiktoks casually using "zios" and interchangeably using "Jews" and "Zionists" even as they are supporting the students) but the defenders of Israel would rather spend time cosplaying Kahanists in East Jerusalem on uni grounds apparently or random stupid batshit memes like waving bananas around because it's been made known that one of the student organizers have a banana allergy, and call that as an intifada against antisemitism, except not because Arabic is a scary language.
But we can't actually address the antisemites, we're too busy beating kids up. At least not (generally) fatally. Then it's not cosplay anymore, just a straightforward remake.
posted by cendawanita at 4:54 AM on May 1 [10 favorites]
This post isn't about protests per se, but it does speak to the kind of university governance that would invite state violence onto campus: I'm a Tenured College Professor. I'm Quitting. Here's Why. Jessica Wildfire
Hedge fund managers and CEOs have captured the boards of trustees of most public universities. They're funneling all the money to the top, away from smaller satellite schools like mine and away from the arts in general. They're directing all the cash and resources to business schools and STEM programs at their flagships, and they're letting everyone else wither and die. They don't want normal people to get an education, not anymore. They want normal people to do undesirable jobs, at least until the right robot comes along.posted by audi alteram partem at 5:17 AM on May 1 [11 favorites]
If you look at the history of higher education itself, all this fits. In the beginning, universities were never intended for ordinary people. Higher education didn't become an engine of democracy in this country until the G.I. Bill, after WWII. Universities actually didn't want these students. They were always seen as a problem to be dealt with, and at best a source of income.
genuine antisemitic tropes and grifters are being fucking normalized as we speak
Don't forget "Soros is funding the protests" (from the "pro-Israel" Murdoch rag NY Post, among others).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:06 AM on May 1 [5 favorites]
Don't forget "Soros is funding the protests" (from the "pro-Israel" Murdoch rag NY Post, among others).
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:06 AM on May 1 [5 favorites]
Hebrew news going with the classic octopus metaphor for the Soros conspiracy
posted by Artw at 6:43 AM on May 1 [3 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:43 AM on May 1 [3 favorites]
This post isn't about protests per se...They don't want normal people to get an education, not anymore. They want normal people to do undesirable jobs, at least until the right robot comes along.
QFT. this type of analysis is extremely relevant, glad to see it posted here. donors, "partners", "stakeholders": these are the systemic reasons university management are strongly incentivised to take an embarrassing, hypocritical, anti-pedagogical position on most student activism, and a nakedly authoritarian position in this particular instance.
i guess there are individual psychological reasons, too: i think that for many of the individual people in upper management, especially the ones who are actual academics, the whole point of the enterprise is to give them opportunities to feel and express contempt, and that this is a very strong urge. i think they think that that's what "higher learning" is for; the elitism is the point, like the linked piece suggests.
posted by busted_crayons at 6:56 AM on May 1 [3 favorites]
QFT. this type of analysis is extremely relevant, glad to see it posted here. donors, "partners", "stakeholders": these are the systemic reasons university management are strongly incentivised to take an embarrassing, hypocritical, anti-pedagogical position on most student activism, and a nakedly authoritarian position in this particular instance.
i guess there are individual psychological reasons, too: i think that for many of the individual people in upper management, especially the ones who are actual academics, the whole point of the enterprise is to give them opportunities to feel and express contempt, and that this is a very strong urge. i think they think that that's what "higher learning" is for; the elitism is the point, like the linked piece suggests.
posted by busted_crayons at 6:56 AM on May 1 [3 favorites]
Donors also get mad when their daughters learn how capitalism might have some issues.
posted by armacy at 7:02 AM on May 1 [2 favorites]
posted by armacy at 7:02 AM on May 1 [2 favorites]
Re: employment of antisemitic tropes in this case Soros supposedly being behind the protests--
Oh don't worry, per this this immediate classic that gets a golf clap for the attempt: (JC) Anti-Israel Jews are worse than just antisemitic
That opens with a fairly uncontroversial point: One of the most irritating things an anti-Israel progressive can say is that this or that Jew, Israeli or otherwise, says such and such nasty thing about Israel, and so it must not be antisemitic or beyond the pale. The idea that Jews or Israelis can’t be antisemitic is plain stupid.
And goes somewhere bananas and venomous. But this is the same Zoe Strimpel who also just wrote for the Telegraph this marvel of a clause: the slippage into the mainstream of slurs like “genocide” and “famine”, for instance, neither of which are remotely accurate descriptions for what is going on in Gaza
Bringing up updated polling of Israeli populace here because I believe this was the thread when an older poll was cited and some query if the sentiments still hold. Per Nathan Tankus (and I can't access the site; same institute that conducted the other poll): Mid-April IDI poll:
Only 6.5% of Jewish Israelis believe the Gaza Strip should be handed back to a Palestinian org of any kind (in this case the PA). 22.5% want settlements in Gaza, while 27.2% want to indefinitely "control Gaza militarily" & 34.1% want a "international force"
33.9% of Jewish israelis have said they've seen "many pictures & video" of the destruction of Gaza while 53.3% say a "few". 11.4% say none. Of those who have seen images, 45.2% say they have seen from Israeli media, 25.8% on social media, 21.9 on Whatsapp or Telegram.
80% of Jewish Israelis think Israel should not participate in Gaza's rebuilding. 12.8% think Israel should.
Most interesting of all, hostage families joining the anti-Netanyahu protests are seen by 22.9% of Jewish Israelis to increase Israeli support for "bringing the hostages home now, even if the price being demanded by Hamas is very high". while 40.3% believe it decreases support.
posted by cendawanita at 7:07 AM on May 1 [6 favorites]
Oh don't worry, per this this immediate classic that gets a golf clap for the attempt: (JC) Anti-Israel Jews are worse than just antisemitic
That opens with a fairly uncontroversial point: One of the most irritating things an anti-Israel progressive can say is that this or that Jew, Israeli or otherwise, says such and such nasty thing about Israel, and so it must not be antisemitic or beyond the pale. The idea that Jews or Israelis can’t be antisemitic is plain stupid.
And goes somewhere bananas and venomous. But this is the same Zoe Strimpel who also just wrote for the Telegraph this marvel of a clause: the slippage into the mainstream of slurs like “genocide” and “famine”, for instance, neither of which are remotely accurate descriptions for what is going on in Gaza
Bringing up updated polling of Israeli populace here because I believe this was the thread when an older poll was cited and some query if the sentiments still hold. Per Nathan Tankus (and I can't access the site; same institute that conducted the other poll): Mid-April IDI poll:
Only 6.5% of Jewish Israelis believe the Gaza Strip should be handed back to a Palestinian org of any kind (in this case the PA). 22.5% want settlements in Gaza, while 27.2% want to indefinitely "control Gaza militarily" & 34.1% want a "international force"
33.9% of Jewish israelis have said they've seen "many pictures & video" of the destruction of Gaza while 53.3% say a "few". 11.4% say none. Of those who have seen images, 45.2% say they have seen from Israeli media, 25.8% on social media, 21.9 on Whatsapp or Telegram.
80% of Jewish Israelis think Israel should not participate in Gaza's rebuilding. 12.8% think Israel should.
Most interesting of all, hostage families joining the anti-Netanyahu protests are seen by 22.9% of Jewish Israelis to increase Israeli support for "bringing the hostages home now, even if the price being demanded by Hamas is very high". while 40.3% believe it decreases support.
posted by cendawanita at 7:07 AM on May 1 [6 favorites]
Blaming the anti-Israel protests on Soros is such a wild turnaround. There is so much WTF in that claim that I don't even know where to start. I will give that claim credit for managing to be simultaneously antisemitic and anti-Palestinian, which takes creativity to achieve.
It's so disappointing to see the photos and footage of the arrests and clashes this morning. There are imperfections with the protests (like the needless vandalism of buildings, which is a bad look, and the small-but-noticeable percentage of antisemitic voices), but the right approach is deescalation, patience, and negotiation, not jumping immediately to bringing in the police. Universities have had plenty of previous building takeovers and sit-ins, and many if not most have been peacefully resolved rather than storming with police.
And call me paranoid, but I suspect there is a component of external agitators involved, either undercover police officers or right wing activists or whatever, because there have been moments (like taking down the US flag on a day when the flags were at half mast for killed police) that are a bit too picture-perfect in terms of creating a negative impression of the protests.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:11 AM on May 1 [3 favorites]
It's so disappointing to see the photos and footage of the arrests and clashes this morning. There are imperfections with the protests (like the needless vandalism of buildings, which is a bad look, and the small-but-noticeable percentage of antisemitic voices), but the right approach is deescalation, patience, and negotiation, not jumping immediately to bringing in the police. Universities have had plenty of previous building takeovers and sit-ins, and many if not most have been peacefully resolved rather than storming with police.
And call me paranoid, but I suspect there is a component of external agitators involved, either undercover police officers or right wing activists or whatever, because there have been moments (like taking down the US flag on a day when the flags were at half mast for killed police) that are a bit too picture-perfect in terms of creating a negative impression of the protests.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:11 AM on May 1 [3 favorites]
“The youth need your help”—F.D. Signifier, 01 May 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 8:04 AM on May 1 [3 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 8:04 AM on May 1 [3 favorites]
taking down the US flag on a day when the flags were at half mast for killed police
The fact that anyone has ever put the US flag to half mast for a cop is a violation and if you need permission to say it, tell them your friend who is an Iraq veteran said it is a pollution of the American flag and the entire notion of lowering flags to half mast. I would rather people fly the flag upside down or pull it down and raise an entire other flag than lower it for fucking cops. The flag is supposed to be lowered to half mast for people for whom the nation mourns, not people for whom bootlickers who have no concept of the Constitution or their civil liberties do.
the needless vandalism of buildings, which is a bad look
First and foremost: the cops vandalized more parts of that building than the protesters ever did. If anyone isn't leading with that, it's because they think the cop vandalism was necessary in order to break into the building and tear the protesters out. If cop vandalism is necessary to pull protesters out, then every bit of protester vandalism in order to stay in (like breaking windows so they can padlock the door handles) is also absolutely necessary.
Secondly: spraypaint cleans off easier than blood, and the instant people decided to start spilling the latter, the idea that nobody should use the former is ridiculous. They brought the war to campus and now are complaining about its after effects. Nobody was vandalizing before the cops came.
posted by corb at 8:07 AM on May 1 [31 favorites]
The fact that anyone has ever put the US flag to half mast for a cop is a violation and if you need permission to say it, tell them your friend who is an Iraq veteran said it is a pollution of the American flag and the entire notion of lowering flags to half mast. I would rather people fly the flag upside down or pull it down and raise an entire other flag than lower it for fucking cops. The flag is supposed to be lowered to half mast for people for whom the nation mourns, not people for whom bootlickers who have no concept of the Constitution or their civil liberties do.
the needless vandalism of buildings, which is a bad look
First and foremost: the cops vandalized more parts of that building than the protesters ever did. If anyone isn't leading with that, it's because they think the cop vandalism was necessary in order to break into the building and tear the protesters out. If cop vandalism is necessary to pull protesters out, then every bit of protester vandalism in order to stay in (like breaking windows so they can padlock the door handles) is also absolutely necessary.
Secondly: spraypaint cleans off easier than blood, and the instant people decided to start spilling the latter, the idea that nobody should use the former is ridiculous. They brought the war to campus and now are complaining about its after effects. Nobody was vandalizing before the cops came.
posted by corb at 8:07 AM on May 1 [31 favorites]
“Opinion: I was part of UConn's Gaza protests. Here's how it went.,” Joey Gottlieb, CT Mirror, 30 April 2024
“At Emory University, Cops Are Using a Sledgehammer to Swat a Fly,” Hannah Riley, The Nation, 01 May 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 8:07 AM on May 1 [9 favorites]
“At Emory University, Cops Are Using a Sledgehammer to Swat a Fly,” Hannah Riley, The Nation, 01 May 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 8:07 AM on May 1 [9 favorites]
taking down the US flag on a day when the flags were at half mast for killed police
MLK is perennially relevant:
the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"
Same as it ever was. Right down to blaming "outside agitators".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:21 AM on May 1 [18 favorites]
MLK is perennially relevant:
the white moderate, who is more devoted to "order" than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: "I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action"
Same as it ever was. Right down to blaming "outside agitators".
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 8:21 AM on May 1 [18 favorites]
"you know, I was troubled by the tortures and the bombings and the napalm and the deaths of entire villages of women and children, but when those filthy hippies burned the flag that was TOO FAR"
posted by elkevelvet at 8:33 AM on May 1 [10 favorites]
posted by elkevelvet at 8:33 AM on May 1 [10 favorites]
The fact that anyone has ever put the US flag to half mast for a cop is a violation and if you need permission to say it, tell them your friend who is an Iraq veteran said it is a pollution of the American flag and the entire notion of lowering flags to half mast. I would rather people fly the flag upside down or pull it down and raise an entire other flag than lower it for fucking cops.
how can one not, uhm, flag this as fantastic?
posted by busted_crayons at 8:33 AM on May 1 [2 favorites]
how can one not, uhm, flag this as fantastic?
posted by busted_crayons at 8:33 AM on May 1 [2 favorites]
If cops cared about cop fatalities they’d take basic COVID precautions and take more care when standing in traffic.
posted by Artw at 8:40 AM on May 1 [8 favorites]
posted by Artw at 8:40 AM on May 1 [8 favorites]
NYU grad workers withholding their labor and refusing to issue final grades until cops are off campus
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 10:12 AM on May 1 [14 favorites]
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 10:12 AM on May 1 [14 favorites]
“They Are Insecure For A Reason” David Roth, Defector,, 30 April 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 10:23 AM on May 1 [5 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 10:23 AM on May 1 [5 favorites]
Who gives a shit about the “needless vandalism” of buildings. How many times in your life have you given a shit about Hamilton hall? Would you give a shit if, say, some months ago someone spray painted or broke some windows there? Why are you giving a shit now?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:28 AM on May 1 [8 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 10:28 AM on May 1 [8 favorites]
lol who fucking gives a shit dude
I don't give a shit about the flag , any more than I cared about the people burning flags back during the Iraq protests, but I do care about the protests and would like to see them reach a broad audience who will support the protestors not getting arrested and bludgeoned. It's just a really dud messaging approach in terms of reaching people who are not currently radicalized, since so many people care about the flag in a pretty simplistic way. Not caring that it is a dud messaging is fine, and people don't always want to reach the people who aren't radicalized anyway and that's fine, too.
Same as it ever was. Right down to blaming "outside agitators".
That article (which is great, thank you for linking it) is about the exact opposite, where they are claiming (falsely) that the protests are not student-led. My point is that there is a long history of police departments (local and FBI both) sending in undercover officers to incite violence, that they can then claim is from the protestors.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:30 AM on May 1 [2 favorites]
I don't give a shit about the flag , any more than I cared about the people burning flags back during the Iraq protests, but I do care about the protests and would like to see them reach a broad audience who will support the protestors not getting arrested and bludgeoned. It's just a really dud messaging approach in terms of reaching people who are not currently radicalized, since so many people care about the flag in a pretty simplistic way. Not caring that it is a dud messaging is fine, and people don't always want to reach the people who aren't radicalized anyway and that's fine, too.
Same as it ever was. Right down to blaming "outside agitators".
That article (which is great, thank you for linking it) is about the exact opposite, where they are claiming (falsely) that the protests are not student-led. My point is that there is a long history of police departments (local and FBI both) sending in undercover officers to incite violence, that they can then claim is from the protestors.
posted by Dip Flash at 10:30 AM on May 1 [2 favorites]
“They Are Insecure For A Reason” David Roth, Defector,, 30 April 2024
Really good article on the little mini industry of coddling far right causes from supposedly liberal vantage points.
posted by Artw at 10:37 AM on May 1 [7 favorites]
Really good article on the little mini industry of coddling far right causes from supposedly liberal vantage points.
posted by Artw at 10:37 AM on May 1 [7 favorites]
sending in undercover officers to incite violence
Definitely shouldn't discount agent provocateurs. That said, I'm not up to speed with American undercover cop little giveaways, outside of the international code of their shoes, and I'm not there, but in general you'll have to make the assessment on which party line the establishment is interested to discredit and I cannot conclude the likelihood of the pro-Israel side to be significantly infested with such actors with their attendant resources. (Not on this week with Amy Schumer getting a Vanity Fair cover, instead of maybe, idk, Melissa Barrera). But that's my read, of course. But I'll note that this resource question seems to be why the various wild guesses on who's supporting this, which I'll just state outright, is a projection. It was an exercise that could've easily occupied several news cycles if the students themselves haven't been practicing real messaging discipline, so now we're just speedrunning to escalation to get any kind of defensive action that can be painted violent. The fact that the escalation is done in such a haphazard way tells me that it's unfortunately quite organic (in the sense it's not being done strategically to discredit the counter protestors, but rather genuine anger, hatred, and fear of this 'threat' to their existence).
It's also not new. But in polite company for years no one really could talk about the standard abusive and aggressive actions due to the indoctrination that dehumanized Palestinians and their supporters (which really just takes a leaf from the state who would rather have its soldiers shoot the kneecaps of peaceful protestors if they're Palestinian eg the Great March of Return or make pancake memes of an American girl) for fear of being called racist so it seems shocking but I am just saying, these kinds of things takes practice, both imaginative and practical.
posted by cendawanita at 11:01 AM on May 1 [2 favorites]
Definitely shouldn't discount agent provocateurs. That said, I'm not up to speed with American undercover cop little giveaways, outside of the international code of their shoes, and I'm not there, but in general you'll have to make the assessment on which party line the establishment is interested to discredit and I cannot conclude the likelihood of the pro-Israel side to be significantly infested with such actors with their attendant resources. (Not on this week with Amy Schumer getting a Vanity Fair cover, instead of maybe, idk, Melissa Barrera). But that's my read, of course. But I'll note that this resource question seems to be why the various wild guesses on who's supporting this, which I'll just state outright, is a projection. It was an exercise that could've easily occupied several news cycles if the students themselves haven't been practicing real messaging discipline, so now we're just speedrunning to escalation to get any kind of defensive action that can be painted violent. The fact that the escalation is done in such a haphazard way tells me that it's unfortunately quite organic (in the sense it's not being done strategically to discredit the counter protestors, but rather genuine anger, hatred, and fear of this 'threat' to their existence).
It's also not new. But in polite company for years no one really could talk about the standard abusive and aggressive actions due to the indoctrination that dehumanized Palestinians and their supporters (which really just takes a leaf from the state who would rather have its soldiers shoot the kneecaps of peaceful protestors if they're Palestinian eg the Great March of Return or make pancake memes of an American girl) for fear of being called racist so it seems shocking but I am just saying, these kinds of things takes practice, both imaginative and practical.
posted by cendawanita at 11:01 AM on May 1 [2 favorites]
“Warrantless Spying on Pro-Palestine Protesters Is Easier Than Ever,” Spencer Ackerman, FOREVER WARS, 01 May 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 11:19 AM on May 1 [3 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 11:19 AM on May 1 [3 favorites]
The Democrats have been playing chicken with their voters since as far back as I can remember. They seem to take a ghoulish delight in finding out exactly how evil they can be while still being able to say "lulz what are you gonna do, vote Republican?" and win elections on the basis of lesser evil.
I believe the Democrats are going to find out in November that they've lost the game and "support for a publicized and televised genocide while brutally crushing protesters" turns out to be the line.
I don't want Trump to win, but Biden sure seems to. Or, at least, Biden views losing to Trump as an acceptable price to pay for the extermination of the Palestinian people.
I think the Democratic cheerleading for the pigs while they crush protesters is bringing home to a lot of people just how unwaveringly committed the Democrats really are to their goal of Palestinian genocide.
posted by sotonohito at 11:30 AM on May 1 [17 favorites]
I believe the Democrats are going to find out in November that they've lost the game and "support for a publicized and televised genocide while brutally crushing protesters" turns out to be the line.
I don't want Trump to win, but Biden sure seems to. Or, at least, Biden views losing to Trump as an acceptable price to pay for the extermination of the Palestinian people.
I think the Democratic cheerleading for the pigs while they crush protesters is bringing home to a lot of people just how unwaveringly committed the Democrats really are to their goal of Palestinian genocide.
posted by sotonohito at 11:30 AM on May 1 [17 favorites]
That said, I'm not up to speed with American undercover cop little giveaways, outside of the international code of their shoes.
always check the bottom of their souls for gum:)
I thought about the provocateur angle. someone or someone's officially acting whether police FBI etc, I doubt it, if they're caught-boy howdy.
I said early in the thread that the biggest threat to the gaza protesters was not people with the Israeli flags that are counter protesters but when the counter protesters are caring American flags, that's when it becomes dangerous hence look at the fireworks or flashbangs thrown into the crowd that shocked me a bit, could see the concussion waves. way up here in University of Michigan things seem to be going quite peaceful and police are keeping a standoffish presence. my experience of protests University of Michigan that they're generally peaceful to digress when I was two my mother had to take me to the hospital, she worked there, about 10:30 at night during the south campus riots and there was smoke bombs and tear gas. she took an indirect route but someone was blocking the road and she just got right out of the car and said I got to get my son to the hospital I will tell you what those protesters moved and made way. even then they weren't blinded to citizens need to access. I would think it's pretty much a given that the counter-processors have infiltrated in one way or another even if it's walking through if there's any provocation, I would think it'd be done at a distance of anything major happened it would be a probably a lone wolf for a two-person team and I must say that that's what officials are worried about or at least claim to is that someone with not good intentions is going to seriously cause harm to the protesters or citizens. states oft used the claim to protected citizens from violence for shutting down protests and it's interesting that the FBI put out alert warnings before Columbia about a hightened possibility of a terror attack.
posted by clavdivs at 11:37 AM on May 1 [1 favorite]
always check the bottom of their souls for gum:)
I thought about the provocateur angle. someone or someone's officially acting whether police FBI etc, I doubt it, if they're caught-boy howdy.
I said early in the thread that the biggest threat to the gaza protesters was not people with the Israeli flags that are counter protesters but when the counter protesters are caring American flags, that's when it becomes dangerous hence look at the fireworks or flashbangs thrown into the crowd that shocked me a bit, could see the concussion waves. way up here in University of Michigan things seem to be going quite peaceful and police are keeping a standoffish presence. my experience of protests University of Michigan that they're generally peaceful to digress when I was two my mother had to take me to the hospital, she worked there, about 10:30 at night during the south campus riots and there was smoke bombs and tear gas. she took an indirect route but someone was blocking the road and she just got right out of the car and said I got to get my son to the hospital I will tell you what those protesters moved and made way. even then they weren't blinded to citizens need to access. I would think it's pretty much a given that the counter-processors have infiltrated in one way or another even if it's walking through if there's any provocation, I would think it'd be done at a distance of anything major happened it would be a probably a lone wolf for a two-person team and I must say that that's what officials are worried about or at least claim to is that someone with not good intentions is going to seriously cause harm to the protesters or citizens. states oft used the claim to protected citizens from violence for shutting down protests and it's interesting that the FBI put out alert warnings before Columbia about a hightened possibility of a terror attack.
posted by clavdivs at 11:37 AM on May 1 [1 favorite]
I said early in the thread that the biggest threat to the gaza protesters was not people with the Israeli flags
Apparently you didn't see what happened at UCLA.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:44 AM on May 1 [8 favorites]
Apparently you didn't see what happened at UCLA.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:44 AM on May 1 [8 favorites]
that was yesterday I was referring to earlier in time. interesting though I scroll through all the pictures and didn't see an Israeli flag maybe I should look twice, no I did read about it. I'll stand by my assertion because it's essentially correct.
posted by clavdivs at 11:52 AM on May 1
posted by clavdivs at 11:52 AM on May 1
NYU grad workers withholding their labor and refusing to issue final grades until cops are off campus
based. marking boycotts can genuinely frighten uni management if done right.
posted by busted_crayons at 12:08 PM on May 1 [5 favorites]
based. marking boycotts can genuinely frighten uni management if done right.
posted by busted_crayons at 12:08 PM on May 1 [5 favorites]
Did you also miss how pro Israel protesters were bringing food that the pro Palestinian protesters were allergic to?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:11 PM on May 1 [11 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 12:11 PM on May 1 [11 favorites]
I thought about the provocateur angle. someone or someone's officially acting whether police FBI etc, I doubt it, if they're caught-boy howdy.
They sure weren't shy about doing that with the radical ecological activists a decade or so back (plus outright framing some people). So there's a tradition of it, whether or not it is happening now.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:12 PM on May 1 [1 favorite]
They sure weren't shy about doing that with the radical ecological activists a decade or so back (plus outright framing some people). So there's a tradition of it, whether or not it is happening now.
posted by Dip Flash at 12:12 PM on May 1 [1 favorite]
The press is doing a bad job of explaining the UCLA clashes. From what I can tell, it was a bunch of toughs just attacking the original protestors in the middle of the night for no reason, yet media outlets across the spectrum are mostly framing it as “groups clash”. I’d like to see some proper reporting on what happened but am not finding it. The first video I watched showed burly skinhead dudes with Star of David forearm tattoos … like, what even is that? Is it like IDF guys who got deported for bad behavior, or are fascist Jewish skinheads a thing in America now?
posted by caviar2d2 at 12:14 PM on May 1 [2 favorites]
posted by caviar2d2 at 12:14 PM on May 1 [2 favorites]
just met some students at my workplace's new-as-of-today encampment (which was set up in explicit solidarity with the ones in the US). it's still small but they said it's been chill so far and almost all interactions with passerby have been supportive. some of the students had met with our vice-chancellor following earlier actions they were part of. they told me that uber-boss professor galaxy brain told them she disapproves of their "extreme" methods, which she likened to the suffragettes "setting back womens' rights with their tactics". in case this comment about uni boss psychology was lacking in anecdotal support. the only extremism i saw was an extreme willingness to chill on the grass in the rain, but obviously i don't have the sort of understanding that gets one into the big chair.
posted by busted_crayons at 12:19 PM on May 1 [4 favorites]
posted by busted_crayons at 12:19 PM on May 1 [4 favorites]
The press is doing a bad job of explaining the UCLA clashes. From what I can tell, it was a bunch of toughs just attacking the original protestors in the middle of the night for no reason, yet media outlets across the spectrum are mostly framing it as “groups clash”.
Always worth double checking any headline like “groups clash” where one of those groups might be the far right or the police and 100% the instigators despite “balanced” headlines and coverage.
posted by Artw at 12:36 PM on May 1 [10 favorites]
Always worth double checking any headline like “groups clash” where one of those groups might be the far right or the police and 100% the instigators despite “balanced” headlines and coverage.
posted by Artw at 12:36 PM on May 1 [10 favorites]
Last night, UCLA-employed police stood down and allowed a fascist mob to beat students at the protest encampment for hours.
My union, UAW 4811, representing 48,000 academic workers across UC, has initiated a strike authorization vote in response.
We will protect our students and communities.
posted by Artw at 2:16 PM on May 1 [21 favorites]
My union, UAW 4811, representing 48,000 academic workers across UC, has initiated a strike authorization vote in response.
We will protect our students and communities.
posted by Artw at 2:16 PM on May 1 [21 favorites]
house passes antisemitism bill
It requires the Department of Education to use the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance working definition of antisemitism when enforcing federal anti-discrimination laws. The working definition says antisemitism is in-part "a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews." The definition includes denying Jewish people their right to self-determination by claiming that the State of Israel is a racist state and drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
posted by pyramid termite at 2:29 PM on May 1 [3 favorites]
It requires the Department of Education to use the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance working definition of antisemitism when enforcing federal anti-discrimination laws. The working definition says antisemitism is in-part "a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews." The definition includes denying Jewish people their right to self-determination by claiming that the State of Israel is a racist state and drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
posted by pyramid termite at 2:29 PM on May 1 [3 favorites]
Jfc. Can’t call a state that just killed 10,000 brown children racist. Has Biden said anything?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:41 PM on May 1 [6 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 2:41 PM on May 1 [6 favorites]
Pretty sure all serious counter-antisemitism work is dead at this point.
posted by Artw at 2:44 PM on May 1 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:44 PM on May 1 [5 favorites]
Here’s the definition. TBH most of anything bad done with it will be done by deliberate misreading and broad interpretation.
posted by Artw at 2:46 PM on May 1 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:46 PM on May 1 [2 favorites]
In the bulletpoints at the bottom, this one is going to be used very selectively:
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
These two are going to be used ridiculously broadly and frequently in denial of reality:
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
And this one is really about tastefulness, and is going to cause trouble because genocides follow particular language and patterns and often one is very similar to another:
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
posted by Artw at 2:59 PM on May 1 [6 favorites]
Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.
These two are going to be used ridiculously broadly and frequently in denial of reality:
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
And this one is really about tastefulness, and is going to cause trouble because genocides follow particular language and patterns and often one is very similar to another:
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
posted by Artw at 2:59 PM on May 1 [6 favorites]
Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.
"We're the only nation on earth that can't be compared to the Nazis! It's literally illegal now!"
Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
"But don't you dare apply double standards to us and our behavior!"
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 3:05 PM on May 1 [9 favorites]
"We're the only nation on earth that can't be compared to the Nazis! It's literally illegal now!"
Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
"But don't you dare apply double standards to us and our behavior!"
posted by Two unicycles and some duct tape at 3:05 PM on May 1 [9 favorites]
So there's a tradition of it, whether or not it is happening now.
Well, yeah. The Handschu agreement
posted by clavdivs at 3:54 PM on May 1
Well, yeah. The Handschu agreement
posted by clavdivs at 3:54 PM on May 1
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
strongly reminiscent of infuriating corporate/institutional "this is/isn't who we are" language that attempts to mould reality by fiat.
of course, something is a racist endeavour or it isn't; one can argue about the general criteria that separate racist endeavours from other things, one can argue about the facts, and one can argue about whether or not a given set of facts imply that the general criteria are satisfied in a given instance, but one can't say in advance that a given example categorically cannot verify the general criteria, irrespective of whatever facts happen to arise. well, one can do this in a trivial way --- "part of the definition of 'racist endeavour' is that it doesn't include israel, ever" --- but (beyond the fact that that itself teeters on the brink of applying a double standard, even if a supposedly positive one) that's exactly one of those orwellian "this isn't who we are" attempts to dictate reality with the sheer force of disembodied words. insane. genocidally solipsistic.
(also the IHRA definition is really bad news in instances where it's already being used; here is an alternative that is seemingly better.)
posted by busted_crayons at 4:06 PM on May 1 [7 favorites]
strongly reminiscent of infuriating corporate/institutional "this is/isn't who we are" language that attempts to mould reality by fiat.
of course, something is a racist endeavour or it isn't; one can argue about the general criteria that separate racist endeavours from other things, one can argue about the facts, and one can argue about whether or not a given set of facts imply that the general criteria are satisfied in a given instance, but one can't say in advance that a given example categorically cannot verify the general criteria, irrespective of whatever facts happen to arise. well, one can do this in a trivial way --- "part of the definition of 'racist endeavour' is that it doesn't include israel, ever" --- but (beyond the fact that that itself teeters on the brink of applying a double standard, even if a supposedly positive one) that's exactly one of those orwellian "this isn't who we are" attempts to dictate reality with the sheer force of disembodied words. insane. genocidally solipsistic.
(also the IHRA definition is really bad news in instances where it's already being used; here is an alternative that is seemingly better.)
posted by busted_crayons at 4:06 PM on May 1 [7 favorites]
""As a proud co-lead of the Combating International Islamophobia Act, I was thrilled to see it pass the House today," said Congresswoman Schakowsky. "In the U.S. alone, nearly 70 percent of American Muslims have reported personally experiencing anti-Muslim hate, bigotry, and even violence. This anti-Muslim hate isn't just confined to certain areas of the country or the globe. It happens everywhere – including in the halls of Congress. It is well past time for the U.S. to seriously examine and address anti-Muslim hate at home and abroad.""
posted by clavdivs at 4:09 PM on May 1 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 4:09 PM on May 1 [2 favorites]
clavdivs, do you think they're identical bills uso g identical definitions? Do they outlaw the same types of speech on campus?
Or maybe it's not a very precise parallel to draw, and there are entirely valid criticisms being made above?
posted by sagc at 4:54 PM on May 1 [5 favorites]
Or maybe it's not a very precise parallel to draw, and there are entirely valid criticisms being made above?
posted by sagc at 4:54 PM on May 1 [5 favorites]
Trump praises New York police raid on Columbia university protesters.
posted by Justinian at 5:13 PM on May 1
posted by Justinian at 5:13 PM on May 1
This is like that bill… if it said you couldn’t mention bonesaw murders when Mohammed bin Salman is being talked about .
posted by Artw at 5:15 PM on May 1 [8 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:15 PM on May 1 [8 favorites]
also i think there is a certain way that islamophobia gets brought up as a diversionary measure (not saying this is what clavdiv's comment is doing at all). the IDF is not murdering Palestinian people due to the religion many of them practice. the Nakba would have happened if zero Palestinians practiced Islam. liberal authority figures like to say "...and islamophobia" to cover their bases, but while it's certainly a big factor, it's also a way to sound unbiased while not talking about land, water, resources, justice, mass graves, etc. it's also a thing to say instead of saying "Palestine". islamophobia is a thing, like antisemitism, but eyes on the prize, here, y'all.
posted by busted_crayons at 5:28 PM on May 1 [8 favorites]
posted by busted_crayons at 5:28 PM on May 1 [8 favorites]
I mean, the IDF is just as murderous and genocidal toward Palestinian Christians as they are toward Palestinian Muslims, so yeah, "islamophobia" is a factor but not at all the relevant political category here.
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:52 PM on May 1 [9 favorites]
posted by adrienneleigh at 5:52 PM on May 1 [9 favorites]
Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.
No-one has the right to "self-determine" in territory already occupied by another people; the existence of the State of Israel was a criminal endeavour from the outset, founded on war crimes of ethnic cleansing and genocide (and ethnic nationalism is inherently racist). No-one has the "right" to commit ethnic cleansing! That's a pretty basic principle of post-WWII international law! They executed Nazis for it at Nuremberg!
Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.
I don't know, I expect democratic nations to respect the rights of everyone within their borders, and not to practise apartheid and ethnic cleansing and genocide. These are literally the same fucking standards that are applied to every democratic state under international law.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:02 PM on May 1 [11 favorites]
I was going to post both bills side by side with links but I think it might be a minor derail though interesting the timing of this bill.
the first bill requires more data and instances of islamophobia to Congress where is the current bill will actually increase the powers of the Secretary of education.
the IDF is not murdering Palestinian people due to the religion many of them practice. the Nakba would have happened if zero Palestinians practiced Islam.
I tend to agree with this. is my belief that Wars of religion were considered, by many military analysts through history, as some of those the longest most bloodiest conflicts but I think this is being outweighed by War of resources as it ismore exigent for global reality today.
sound unbiased while not talking about land, water, resources, justice, mass graves, etc.
very interesting point it's one of the reasons I centered on the water situation contaminants and other countries trying to help the Palestinian people by building desalination plants that have been destroyed by Israel to me that's one of them Hallmark tenants of genocide. the restriction and redistribution of water has been an age-old tactic of warfare.
I haven't fully investigated this new bill but it seems like it's investing more powers in the executive branch all the while claiming not to infringe on First amendment rights.
posted by clavdivs at 6:03 PM on May 1 [1 favorite]
the first bill requires more data and instances of islamophobia to Congress where is the current bill will actually increase the powers of the Secretary of education.
the IDF is not murdering Palestinian people due to the religion many of them practice. the Nakba would have happened if zero Palestinians practiced Islam.
I tend to agree with this. is my belief that Wars of religion were considered, by many military analysts through history, as some of those the longest most bloodiest conflicts but I think this is being outweighed by War of resources as it ismore exigent for global reality today.
sound unbiased while not talking about land, water, resources, justice, mass graves, etc.
very interesting point it's one of the reasons I centered on the water situation contaminants and other countries trying to help the Palestinian people by building desalination plants that have been destroyed by Israel to me that's one of them Hallmark tenants of genocide. the restriction and redistribution of water has been an age-old tactic of warfare.
I haven't fully investigated this new bill but it seems like it's investing more powers in the executive branch all the while claiming not to infringe on First amendment rights.
posted by clavdivs at 6:03 PM on May 1 [1 favorite]
No-one has the right to "self-determine" in territory already occupied by another people
How does this work or did work or not work in post-war Germany.
They executed Nazis for it at Nuremberg!
All 23 of them. that's one of the problems of using the Nuremberg trials in contemporary historical analysis is the Justice meted out was disproportionate for the crimes committed..
hmm.
The German courts executed 20,000 German soldiers during World War II.
posted by clavdivs at 6:29 PM on May 1
How does this work or did work or not work in post-war Germany.
They executed Nazis for it at Nuremberg!
All 23 of them. that's one of the problems of using the Nuremberg trials in contemporary historical analysis is the Justice meted out was disproportionate for the crimes committed..
hmm.
The German courts executed 20,000 German soldiers during World War II.
posted by clavdivs at 6:29 PM on May 1
house passes antisemitism bill
1. Man, British commonwealth Muslim-majority states had to be colonized by the British first before blasphemy became an actual law
2. Takfiri bingo just evolved to its final form eh
(Things to keep in my pocket anytime a westerner is tempted to say things like "the Christian Taliban")
posted by cendawanita at 6:56 PM on May 1 [5 favorites]
1. Man, British commonwealth Muslim-majority states had to be colonized by the British first before blasphemy became an actual law
2. Takfiri bingo just evolved to its final form eh
(Things to keep in my pocket anytime a westerner is tempted to say things like "the Christian Taliban")
posted by cendawanita at 6:56 PM on May 1 [5 favorites]
also i think there is a certain way that islamophobia gets brought up as a diversionary measure (not saying this is what clavdiv's comment is doing at all). ... islamophobia is a thing, like antisemitism, but eyes on the prize, here, y'all.
If it's coming from the right wing like Stefanik, whether in the US or EU or wherever, and they are talking about Islamophobia or antisemitism, it's 100% guaranteed to be diversionary at the absolute best. These are people who are openly racist and only love Israel in terms of the End Times, and despise Muslims all the time. But they've found a cudgel and dammit they are going to pound with it.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:12 PM on May 1 [2 favorites]
If it's coming from the right wing like Stefanik, whether in the US or EU or wherever, and they are talking about Islamophobia or antisemitism, it's 100% guaranteed to be diversionary at the absolute best. These are people who are openly racist and only love Israel in terms of the End Times, and despise Muslims all the time. But they've found a cudgel and dammit they are going to pound with it.
posted by Dip Flash at 7:12 PM on May 1 [2 favorites]
I’ve Covered Violent Crackdowns on Protests for 15 Years. This Police Overreaction Was Unhinged. (Natasha Lennard at The Intercept)
The negligible acts of property damage were not, of course, what was being policed. Nor was the holding of campus space; students have done this before in recent decades without their university administrators inviting the force of militarized police.posted by adrienneleigh at 7:24 PM on May 1 [16 favorites]
Instead, it was the protesters’ message that was being handcuffed — the condemnation of Israel and the calls for a free Palestine — and young peoples’ commitment to it.
I have been reporting on political dissent and violent policing for 15 years, particularly in New York City. Compared to Tuesday night, I have never witnessed, at the scene of a protest, the use of police power so disproportionate to the type of demonstration taking place.
Make no mistake: This is an authoritarian escalation.
about Islamophobia or antisemitism, it's 100% guaranteed to be diversionary at the absolute best.
from what, the media, the people that watch media but don't care. is the diversion within the media or the narrative or with the codification of existing laws cuz that's what we're talking about here, codification of existing law that gives more power to the executive branch. this falls in line with historical narrative for example one-sided narrative says that outside agitators etc etc. is there a parallel to the Vietnam War and perhaps other demonstrations were outside protesters would come in so other students wouldn't feel threatened with expulsion for taking part a legal protest or did they come for or and to support. were there this many demonstrations 6 months after America's involvement into Vietnam in an advisory capacity, did it look like anything like the protest today. it's been what 6 months and protests have spread to triple digits at universities. snippets of culture, History, may semm trivial or diversionary but I think it's culmination what has been learned from past protests in the United States to today. another example would be the double-edged sword of the codification of laws within the British Commonwealth muslim-majority countries that forbode blasphemy.
(I love it. Christian taliban. see the oxy moron and that is neither side would trust. but for historical contrast, the Knights Templar.)
posted by clavdivs at 8:02 PM on May 1 [1 favorite]
from what, the media, the people that watch media but don't care. is the diversion within the media or the narrative or with the codification of existing laws cuz that's what we're talking about here, codification of existing law that gives more power to the executive branch. this falls in line with historical narrative for example one-sided narrative says that outside agitators etc etc. is there a parallel to the Vietnam War and perhaps other demonstrations were outside protesters would come in so other students wouldn't feel threatened with expulsion for taking part a legal protest or did they come for or and to support. were there this many demonstrations 6 months after America's involvement into Vietnam in an advisory capacity, did it look like anything like the protest today. it's been what 6 months and protests have spread to triple digits at universities. snippets of culture, History, may semm trivial or diversionary but I think it's culmination what has been learned from past protests in the United States to today. another example would be the double-edged sword of the codification of laws within the British Commonwealth muslim-majority countries that forbode blasphemy.
(I love it. Christian taliban. see the oxy moron and that is neither side would trust. but for historical contrast, the Knights Templar.)
posted by clavdivs at 8:02 PM on May 1 [1 favorite]
Haven't seen this shared here, from the Columbia student protest twitter, on Monday:
BREAKING:
LEAKED DOCUMENT from Columbia University admin detailing:
1. Discriminatory Admissions policies for the Tel Aviv Dual Degree program
2. Disproportionate financial aid given to Tel Aviv Dual Degree Students
3. Bias from the Dean of General Studies
Thread 🧵
(Threadreader)
From Palestine:
Taleed el-Sabawi: I’ve been sending videos of U.S. college protestors to my cousins in Gaza to help lift their spirits. This is what Mohammed said to me today:
“This videos of how the students are being treated is heartbreaking.💔 ”
“I hope their protests will bring us the end of this war.”
(Match your protests with donations to help those in Gaza: chuffed.org/project/108980… ).
I saw this tweet that was responding to a Ramy Abdu tweet about the children in Gaza printing out signs of thanks to the American universities: God this shit is gonna make me cry. Finding out that somewhere across the world the country arming your killers has many citizens who do not wish you dead and taking some small solace in that. Thanking them for not wanting you dead.
And a letter of solidarity from Birzeit University: (an excerpt) “We draw inspiration from the courage of those who refuse and resist the continuing injustices of settler colonialism and military occupation. We welcome you at our universities in a liberated Palestine.”
(On a similar tenor: Campus Protests for Gaza: The View From the Resistance Axis - American college protesters supporting Gaza receive recognition from Iranian professors, Lebanese students, Yemeni demonstrators, and Palestinian factions. - needs paid access tho, and I don't have any gift links)
Editorial change or one-off? LAT: Four UCLA student journalists attacked by pro-Israel counterprotesters on campus
Daily Bruin news editor Catherine Hamilton, 21, told The Times she recognized one of the counterprotesters as someone who had previously verbally harassed her and taken pictures of her press badge. The individual instructed the group to encircle the student journalists, she said, before they sprayed the four with mace or pepper spray, flashed lights in their faces and chanted Hamilton’s name.
As she tried to break free, Hamilton said, she was punched repeatedly in the chest and upper abdomen; another student journalist was pushed to the ground and beaten and kicked for nearly a minute. The attack was first reported in the Daily Bruin.
“We expected to be harassed by counterprotesters,” Hamilton said in an interview Wednesday, adding that every Daily Bruin reporter was instructed to use a buddy system, to report from outside the encampment and to leave the area if it became unsafe. “I truly did not expect to be directly assaulted.”
AP: A retired teacher saw inspiration in Columbia’s protests. Eric Adams called her an outside agitator
Canada: (CBC) Student protesters at McGill encampment determined to stay after judge rejects injunction -
Ruling proves that 'fights for equality and justice always prevail,' protester says
Accusation, projection, confession etc: (Daily Beast) Jessica Seinfeld and Bill Ackman Fund Pro-Israel Counterprotests at Colleges
posted by cendawanita at 10:44 PM on May 1 [10 favorites]
BREAKING:
LEAKED DOCUMENT from Columbia University admin detailing:
1. Discriminatory Admissions policies for the Tel Aviv Dual Degree program
2. Disproportionate financial aid given to Tel Aviv Dual Degree Students
3. Bias from the Dean of General Studies
Thread 🧵
(Threadreader)
From Palestine:
Taleed el-Sabawi: I’ve been sending videos of U.S. college protestors to my cousins in Gaza to help lift their spirits. This is what Mohammed said to me today:
“This videos of how the students are being treated is heartbreaking.💔 ”
“I hope their protests will bring us the end of this war.”
(Match your protests with donations to help those in Gaza: chuffed.org/project/108980… ).
I saw this tweet that was responding to a Ramy Abdu tweet about the children in Gaza printing out signs of thanks to the American universities: God this shit is gonna make me cry. Finding out that somewhere across the world the country arming your killers has many citizens who do not wish you dead and taking some small solace in that. Thanking them for not wanting you dead.
And a letter of solidarity from Birzeit University: (an excerpt) “We draw inspiration from the courage of those who refuse and resist the continuing injustices of settler colonialism and military occupation. We welcome you at our universities in a liberated Palestine.”
(On a similar tenor: Campus Protests for Gaza: The View From the Resistance Axis - American college protesters supporting Gaza receive recognition from Iranian professors, Lebanese students, Yemeni demonstrators, and Palestinian factions. - needs paid access tho, and I don't have any gift links)
Editorial change or one-off? LAT: Four UCLA student journalists attacked by pro-Israel counterprotesters on campus
Daily Bruin news editor Catherine Hamilton, 21, told The Times she recognized one of the counterprotesters as someone who had previously verbally harassed her and taken pictures of her press badge. The individual instructed the group to encircle the student journalists, she said, before they sprayed the four with mace or pepper spray, flashed lights in their faces and chanted Hamilton’s name.
As she tried to break free, Hamilton said, she was punched repeatedly in the chest and upper abdomen; another student journalist was pushed to the ground and beaten and kicked for nearly a minute. The attack was first reported in the Daily Bruin.
“We expected to be harassed by counterprotesters,” Hamilton said in an interview Wednesday, adding that every Daily Bruin reporter was instructed to use a buddy system, to report from outside the encampment and to leave the area if it became unsafe. “I truly did not expect to be directly assaulted.”
AP: A retired teacher saw inspiration in Columbia’s protests. Eric Adams called her an outside agitator
Canada: (CBC) Student protesters at McGill encampment determined to stay after judge rejects injunction -
Ruling proves that 'fights for equality and justice always prevail,' protester says
Accusation, projection, confession etc: (Daily Beast) Jessica Seinfeld and Bill Ackman Fund Pro-Israel Counterprotests at Colleges
posted by cendawanita at 10:44 PM on May 1 [10 favorites]
This is being treated as significant in terms of trendwatching the various US electoral bases: National College Democrats Slam Biden On Gaza And Back Campus Protesters
The national group representing college Democrats released a statement Tuesday standing with pro-Palestinian campus protesters and criticizing President Joe Biden for his “bear hug” of what the group called “the genocidal acts of the far-right radical extremist Israeli government.”
The statement, released by the College Democrats of America, illustrated a break with the Democratic Party — of which it is an official arm. It was approved by an 8-2 vote of the group’s executive board, which is made up of national leadership that has been elected by representatives of campus and state college Democrats chapters across the country.
--
Israeli pro boxer identified as assailant intimidating UCLA protestors in video -
David Kaminsky, an Israeli boxer who goes by the moniker “The Lion of Zion” was seen hurling racial slurs and spitting at pro-Palestine demonstrators during a UCLA protest on Sunday.
--
Posting here because it opens with the student protests but anyway, The Atlantic keeping on keeping on: Charge Palestine With Genocide Too
As well as, though this could be its own FPP: Judith Butler Will Not Co-Sign Israel’s Alibi for Genocide -
The famed scholar on why reducing Hamas to a terrorist label sanctions Israel’s war on Palestinians. (Intercept podcast, with transcript)
I think that there are spurious and completely objectionable grounds that universities have given for unleashing police on students. One of them has to do with security. One has to ask security for whom or for what — certainly not security for protesters. They’re not interested in protesters being secure, secure enough, to exercise their rights of expression, their rights of protest. It seems like that would be good if we wanted to guarantee rights of protest on campus, since that would be a defense of freedom of expression and what we call “extramural speech” in the academy.
But also it becomes clear that the security at issue is twofold. One: security for the campus, its own property — security of the entrance, allowing students to come and leave as they wish, imagining that those protests, those encampments, are somehow keeping people from moving on and off campus.
But also, as we know, there is a security concern raised by some Jewish students — and here, it’s really important to say some Jewish students, because not all Jewish students agree — those Jewish students who claim that they are unsafe on campus or feel that they need security, telling us that certain utterances make them feel unsafe.
Now, utterances that truly jeopardize another person’s safety are those that threaten them with harm. And what we’re seeing in some of the justifications that are used by college and university presidents to bring police onto campus is an equivocation between utterances that may be objectionable and hurtful or disturbing, and utterances that are threats, literally threats to the physical safety of a student.
So I think that the blurring of that distinction has quite frankly become nefarious because any student who says “I feel unsafe by what I hear another student say” is saying that “My security and safety is more important than that person’s freedom of expression.” And if we countenance that, if we give too much leeway to that claim that a student feels unsafe because, say, an anti-Zionist — or a statement in support of Palestine, or a statement opposing genocide makes that Jewish student feel unsafe, we are saying that that student is perceiving a personal threat or is threatened by the discourse itself — even when the discourse is expressive rather than portending physical harm.
Now, if somebody does say, listen, if somebody uses a deeply antisemitic slur, any kind of antisemitic slur, or addresses a Jewish student in an antisemitic way, and then says, “And because you’re Jewish,” or “Because I feel the following way about Jews, I’m also going to do physical damage to you. I’m going to harm you.” — that is not acceptable speech. That is not protected speech. There’s nothing about that speech that is protected.
But if calling for an end of genocide against Palestine is understood as making a Jewish student feel unsafe, then we see that the safety of the situation has been oddly co-opted by that particular Jewish student. It’s as if they are being threatened with harm when, in fact, the opposition to the genocide in Gaza is quite explicitly an opposition to doing harm and killing numerous people who are huddled in Rafah looking for safety.
So I call it nefarious because it’s so clear that Palestinians — who are under bombardment and will now, or have undergone, unfathomable loss, who are living through a spree of killing and genocide that stretches the human imagination and appalls anybody whose heart is open to the reality before them — that they are the ones in need of safety. And the international community has failed to provide that safety. They are in need of safety from harm, like real physical harm. They need to be safe from killing, from being killed. They need to be protected against being killed. They need to protect their families, what’s left of their families.
So for an utterance that opposes the genocide in Gaza to suddenly make a Jewish student feel unsafe — because that Jewish student identifies with Zionism or with the state of Israel — is a grotesque claim in the sense that that student is safe.
That student is having to hear something that might be deeply disturbing and sometimes antisemitic — and I think we must all agree that antisemitic speech, narrowly, clearly, lucidly defined, is radically unobjectionable under all circumstances. But we can talk about that as well, since what counts as antisemitic has so expanded beyond the limits of its established definitions that, unfortunately, the call for justice in Palestine is registered by some as nothing more than antisemitism.
Slate: The Anti-Defamation League Has Abandoned Some of the People It Exists to Protect -
For those with the wrong opinions, the group is now a threat to Jewish safety.
I understand Greenblatt disagrees with JVP, which is anti-Zionist. I understand that when he speaks about Jewish students, he is not speaking about the Jewish students sitting as part of the protests. Still, I do wonder how, exactly, likening a Jewish student group to a terrorist organization helps stop the defamation of the Jewish people, or secures justice and fair treatment to all.
What makes this especially baffling is that Greenblatt did not need to do this to make his point about antisemitism on campus. It would be easy enough to say something like, “I disagree with these students on everything related to Israel, but I am glad they feel safe on campus. But safety on campus for Jewish students shouldn’t hinge on their views on Israel.”
But perhaps saying something more along those lines would not have been easy for him. Doing so would have required him to admit that these are Jewish students, albeit ones with whom he has profound disagreements, and to acknowledge that they see the world differently than he does, and are motivated by different principles.
I can understand that Greenblatt is motivated by a desire to defend not only Israel, but also the American Jews who see support for Israel as an important part of their Jewish identities. Is it really so hard for him to imagine that other American Jews—particularly Jews born in this century, a decade after the Oslo Accords, who have only seen the situation on the ground move farther out of peace’s reach—are motivated by wanting an end to war? That they see Israel as more culpable for the death in Gaza than he does? That they see Israel as carrying out actions that are at odds with—not extensions of—their own Jewishness? That they, too, feel they deserve to have a say in what constitutes antisemitism?
posted by cendawanita at 2:11 AM on May 2 [12 favorites]
The national group representing college Democrats released a statement Tuesday standing with pro-Palestinian campus protesters and criticizing President Joe Biden for his “bear hug” of what the group called “the genocidal acts of the far-right radical extremist Israeli government.”
The statement, released by the College Democrats of America, illustrated a break with the Democratic Party — of which it is an official arm. It was approved by an 8-2 vote of the group’s executive board, which is made up of national leadership that has been elected by representatives of campus and state college Democrats chapters across the country.
--
Israeli pro boxer identified as assailant intimidating UCLA protestors in video -
David Kaminsky, an Israeli boxer who goes by the moniker “The Lion of Zion” was seen hurling racial slurs and spitting at pro-Palestine demonstrators during a UCLA protest on Sunday.
--
Posting here because it opens with the student protests but anyway, The Atlantic keeping on keeping on: Charge Palestine With Genocide Too
As well as, though this could be its own FPP: Judith Butler Will Not Co-Sign Israel’s Alibi for Genocide -
The famed scholar on why reducing Hamas to a terrorist label sanctions Israel’s war on Palestinians. (Intercept podcast, with transcript)
I think that there are spurious and completely objectionable grounds that universities have given for unleashing police on students. One of them has to do with security. One has to ask security for whom or for what — certainly not security for protesters. They’re not interested in protesters being secure, secure enough, to exercise their rights of expression, their rights of protest. It seems like that would be good if we wanted to guarantee rights of protest on campus, since that would be a defense of freedom of expression and what we call “extramural speech” in the academy.
But also it becomes clear that the security at issue is twofold. One: security for the campus, its own property — security of the entrance, allowing students to come and leave as they wish, imagining that those protests, those encampments, are somehow keeping people from moving on and off campus.
But also, as we know, there is a security concern raised by some Jewish students — and here, it’s really important to say some Jewish students, because not all Jewish students agree — those Jewish students who claim that they are unsafe on campus or feel that they need security, telling us that certain utterances make them feel unsafe.
Now, utterances that truly jeopardize another person’s safety are those that threaten them with harm. And what we’re seeing in some of the justifications that are used by college and university presidents to bring police onto campus is an equivocation between utterances that may be objectionable and hurtful or disturbing, and utterances that are threats, literally threats to the physical safety of a student.
So I think that the blurring of that distinction has quite frankly become nefarious because any student who says “I feel unsafe by what I hear another student say” is saying that “My security and safety is more important than that person’s freedom of expression.” And if we countenance that, if we give too much leeway to that claim that a student feels unsafe because, say, an anti-Zionist — or a statement in support of Palestine, or a statement opposing genocide makes that Jewish student feel unsafe, we are saying that that student is perceiving a personal threat or is threatened by the discourse itself — even when the discourse is expressive rather than portending physical harm.
Now, if somebody does say, listen, if somebody uses a deeply antisemitic slur, any kind of antisemitic slur, or addresses a Jewish student in an antisemitic way, and then says, “And because you’re Jewish,” or “Because I feel the following way about Jews, I’m also going to do physical damage to you. I’m going to harm you.” — that is not acceptable speech. That is not protected speech. There’s nothing about that speech that is protected.
But if calling for an end of genocide against Palestine is understood as making a Jewish student feel unsafe, then we see that the safety of the situation has been oddly co-opted by that particular Jewish student. It’s as if they are being threatened with harm when, in fact, the opposition to the genocide in Gaza is quite explicitly an opposition to doing harm and killing numerous people who are huddled in Rafah looking for safety.
So I call it nefarious because it’s so clear that Palestinians — who are under bombardment and will now, or have undergone, unfathomable loss, who are living through a spree of killing and genocide that stretches the human imagination and appalls anybody whose heart is open to the reality before them — that they are the ones in need of safety. And the international community has failed to provide that safety. They are in need of safety from harm, like real physical harm. They need to be safe from killing, from being killed. They need to be protected against being killed. They need to protect their families, what’s left of their families.
So for an utterance that opposes the genocide in Gaza to suddenly make a Jewish student feel unsafe — because that Jewish student identifies with Zionism or with the state of Israel — is a grotesque claim in the sense that that student is safe.
That student is having to hear something that might be deeply disturbing and sometimes antisemitic — and I think we must all agree that antisemitic speech, narrowly, clearly, lucidly defined, is radically unobjectionable under all circumstances. But we can talk about that as well, since what counts as antisemitic has so expanded beyond the limits of its established definitions that, unfortunately, the call for justice in Palestine is registered by some as nothing more than antisemitism.
Slate: The Anti-Defamation League Has Abandoned Some of the People It Exists to Protect -
For those with the wrong opinions, the group is now a threat to Jewish safety.
I understand Greenblatt disagrees with JVP, which is anti-Zionist. I understand that when he speaks about Jewish students, he is not speaking about the Jewish students sitting as part of the protests. Still, I do wonder how, exactly, likening a Jewish student group to a terrorist organization helps stop the defamation of the Jewish people, or secures justice and fair treatment to all.
What makes this especially baffling is that Greenblatt did not need to do this to make his point about antisemitism on campus. It would be easy enough to say something like, “I disagree with these students on everything related to Israel, but I am glad they feel safe on campus. But safety on campus for Jewish students shouldn’t hinge on their views on Israel.”
But perhaps saying something more along those lines would not have been easy for him. Doing so would have required him to admit that these are Jewish students, albeit ones with whom he has profound disagreements, and to acknowledge that they see the world differently than he does, and are motivated by different principles.
I can understand that Greenblatt is motivated by a desire to defend not only Israel, but also the American Jews who see support for Israel as an important part of their Jewish identities. Is it really so hard for him to imagine that other American Jews—particularly Jews born in this century, a decade after the Oslo Accords, who have only seen the situation on the ground move farther out of peace’s reach—are motivated by wanting an end to war? That they see Israel as more culpable for the death in Gaza than he does? That they see Israel as carrying out actions that are at odds with—not extensions of—their own Jewishness? That they, too, feel they deserve to have a say in what constitutes antisemitism?
posted by cendawanita at 2:11 AM on May 2 [12 favorites]
Re: the whole Islamophobia angle,
the average Zionist tries to convince everyone that actually, the white supremacist view of the world is correct. We should all live in ethnically separated states. They do this every time they say "why won't the Arab world take the Palestinians in?". They view the world, and people, as existing only according to their ethnicity/religion. The Trump immigration ban is entirely congruent with their beliefs, and a lot of them proudly champion it.
I don't only think we don't need to listen to what Zionists think about racism and bigotry, I think it harms as us people to listen to them. They think it's normal, natural, and expected. That's why they go so well hand-in-hand with TERFs. Both groups refuse the possibility of a better world, and want to return to fascist boundaries of personhood enforced by state violence.
I'm not sure I've ever had an in-person or online conversation with a Zionist where they fully acknowledged the personhood of someone who was either/both PoC and Muslim. They really just can't help themselves but to come out swinging with at best "Palestinians are lesser people incapable of democracy" and more usually just slurs and hate speech.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:31 AM on May 2 [13 favorites]
the average Zionist tries to convince everyone that actually, the white supremacist view of the world is correct. We should all live in ethnically separated states. They do this every time they say "why won't the Arab world take the Palestinians in?". They view the world, and people, as existing only according to their ethnicity/religion. The Trump immigration ban is entirely congruent with their beliefs, and a lot of them proudly champion it.
I don't only think we don't need to listen to what Zionists think about racism and bigotry, I think it harms as us people to listen to them. They think it's normal, natural, and expected. That's why they go so well hand-in-hand with TERFs. Both groups refuse the possibility of a better world, and want to return to fascist boundaries of personhood enforced by state violence.
I'm not sure I've ever had an in-person or online conversation with a Zionist where they fully acknowledged the personhood of someone who was either/both PoC and Muslim. They really just can't help themselves but to come out swinging with at best "Palestinians are lesser people incapable of democracy" and more usually just slurs and hate speech.
posted by Audreynachrome at 2:31 AM on May 2 [13 favorites]
But if calling for an end of genocide against Palestine is understood as making a Jewish student feel unsafe, then we see that the safety of the situation has been oddly co-opted by that particular Jewish student. It’s as if they are being threatened with harm when, in fact, the opposition to the genocide in Gaza is quite explicitly an opposition to doing harm and killing numerous people who are huddled in Rafah looking for safety.
right. butler is describing what i was clumsily trying to get at with "genocidal solipsism". it's like karen calling the cops on a birdwatcher for being Black in the park. it's the hyper-individualistic american-type ideal where (fine print: the right people's) subjectivity and individual ease and comfort is so elevated, and feelings are so unimpeachably Valid, that reality itself is subordinate to (fine print: the right people's) feelings. live your truth (fine print: certain decisions about what your truth is may entail others having to die your truth; we will endeavour to ensure you don't need to think about that).
posted by busted_crayons at 2:46 AM on May 2 [18 favorites]
right. butler is describing what i was clumsily trying to get at with "genocidal solipsism". it's like karen calling the cops on a birdwatcher for being Black in the park. it's the hyper-individualistic american-type ideal where (fine print: the right people's) subjectivity and individual ease and comfort is so elevated, and feelings are so unimpeachably Valid, that reality itself is subordinate to (fine print: the right people's) feelings. live your truth (fine print: certain decisions about what your truth is may entail others having to die your truth; we will endeavour to ensure you don't need to think about that).
posted by busted_crayons at 2:46 AM on May 2 [18 favorites]
University of Toronto Faculty Association statement (PDF):
The Administration appears to believe that with the stroke of a pen it can transform freedom of expression from a fundamental right, the protection of which is the sine qua non of the University, into a privilege that the Administration may confer or deny at its pleasure. This cannot stand.posted by audi alteram partem at 5:25 AM on May 2 [8 favorites]
Rutgers postpones morning finals due to pro-Palestinian protests, encampment (NJ)
posted by armacy at 6:12 AM on May 2
posted by armacy at 6:12 AM on May 2
Happening now: UCLA riot cops are shooting student protesters in the face with 40mm "less than lethal" munitions. Awesome seeing fascism unleashed under a Democratic administration in the name of stifling criticism of a genocidal ethnostate.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:14 AM on May 2 [10 favorites]
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:14 AM on May 2 [10 favorites]
In Ukraine it seems that Russia may be using tear gas against Ukranian soldiers. This is a violation of the Geneva Conventions which explicitly prohibit the use of tear gas in war, and Russia is being condemned by the US government for using tear gas.
In UCLA the pigs are using tear gas on American citizens as part of their brutal subjugation of students at the university. This is being lauded by the US government as a necessary if firm measure to prevent lawlessness and "antisemitism".
I'm not sure what exactly needs to happen to hold the pigs accountable, reign in their obscene immunity and power, and end their brutality, especially since it seems an overwhelming majority of Americans favor pig violence and are in support of brutalizing anyone who speaks against the genocide Israel is carrying out.
posted by sotonohito at 6:26 AM on May 2 [10 favorites]
In UCLA the pigs are using tear gas on American citizens as part of their brutal subjugation of students at the university. This is being lauded by the US government as a necessary if firm measure to prevent lawlessness and "antisemitism".
I'm not sure what exactly needs to happen to hold the pigs accountable, reign in their obscene immunity and power, and end their brutality, especially since it seems an overwhelming majority of Americans favor pig violence and are in support of brutalizing anyone who speaks against the genocide Israel is carrying out.
posted by sotonohito at 6:26 AM on May 2 [10 favorites]
especially since it seems an overwhelming majority of Americans favor pig violence and are in support of brutalizing anyone who speaks against the genocide Israel is carrying out.
A majority of Americans are actually opposed to Israel's genocide (polling from late March, numbers have probably shifted more since), not that you'd know that from the behaviour of the people who supposedly represent them.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:46 AM on May 2 [5 favorites]
A majority of Americans are actually opposed to Israel's genocide (polling from late March, numbers have probably shifted more since), not that you'd know that from the behaviour of the people who supposedly represent them.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 6:46 AM on May 2 [5 favorites]
Honestly let me also say it's surreal for those who think that campuses can just keep rolling with what's going on. I have papers due so I can pass my law school semester and I have to viscerally force myself to write, and I want to keep writing "are you fucking kidding me do you not see us walking into the law school with literal wounds from where the cops hit us".
posted by corb at 6:55 AM on May 2 [15 favorites]
posted by corb at 6:55 AM on May 2 [15 favorites]
Lockout reported at the WKCR student radio station.
posted by audi alteram partem at 8:38 AM on May 2
posted by audi alteram partem at 8:38 AM on May 2
On the lighter side: Lauren Boebert met with chants of "Beetlejuice" when she visited George Washington University and failed at pulling a Palestinian flag off a statue of George Washington.
Joe Biden gave his statements about the protests: Breaking days of silence on the issue since the arrests of students and other protesters at Columbia University, the University of California, Los Angeles, and elsewhere, Biden emphasized that “peaceful protest is in the best tradition of how Americans respond to consequential issues” and that the U.S. is not a “lawless country.”
“Violent protest is not protected — peaceful protest is," the president said. "It’s against the law when violence occurs. Destroying property is not a peaceful protest."
Author Viet Thanh Nguyen on the protests (Zeteo/Substack link): The student protesters are on the right side of history, as they were in the 1960s and 1970s, demonstrating against the immoral and racist war the U.S. was waging in Viet Nam, Laos, and Cambodia. The students were right again in the 1980s, campaigning against apartheid and forcing universities to divest from South Africa.
It is amazing how institutions teach idealism, including these cases of opposition to war and apartheid, and are then astonished that students are idealists. We are now witnessing a student rebellion against the hypocrisy of their elders and the powerful, who tell them they have to accept the lesser of two evils, and who weaponize antisemitism to justify genocide.
posted by toastyk at 8:41 AM on May 2 [15 favorites]
Joe Biden gave his statements about the protests: Breaking days of silence on the issue since the arrests of students and other protesters at Columbia University, the University of California, Los Angeles, and elsewhere, Biden emphasized that “peaceful protest is in the best tradition of how Americans respond to consequential issues” and that the U.S. is not a “lawless country.”
“Violent protest is not protected — peaceful protest is," the president said. "It’s against the law when violence occurs. Destroying property is not a peaceful protest."
Author Viet Thanh Nguyen on the protests (Zeteo/Substack link): The student protesters are on the right side of history, as they were in the 1960s and 1970s, demonstrating against the immoral and racist war the U.S. was waging in Viet Nam, Laos, and Cambodia. The students were right again in the 1980s, campaigning against apartheid and forcing universities to divest from South Africa.
It is amazing how institutions teach idealism, including these cases of opposition to war and apartheid, and are then astonished that students are idealists. We are now witnessing a student rebellion against the hypocrisy of their elders and the powerful, who tell them they have to accept the lesser of two evils, and who weaponize antisemitism to justify genocide.
posted by toastyk at 8:41 AM on May 2 [15 favorites]
UAW chief slams mass arrests of pro-Palestinian protesters on college campuses
“Our union has been calling for a ceasefire for six months. This war is wrong, and this response against students and academic workers, many of them UAW members, is wrong.”
posted by CPAnarchist at 9:00 AM on May 2 [9 favorites]
“Our union has been calling for a ceasefire for six months. This war is wrong, and this response against students and academic workers, many of them UAW members, is wrong.”
posted by CPAnarchist at 9:00 AM on May 2 [9 favorites]
Joe Biden gave his statements about the protests: Breaking days of silence on the issue since the arrests of students and other protesters at Columbia University, the University of California, Los Angeles, and elsewhere, Biden emphasized that “peaceful protest is in the best tradition of how Americans respond to consequential issues” and that the U.S. is not a “lawless country.”
That's why when you have a big protest against something deeply unpopular with a majority, the government listens and changes what it does! Consider the 2003 anti-war protests, for instance! And protests against police brutality and immigrant internment! And how we have Medicare for All and childcare subsidies and a beefed up social security and all those great things we've gotten by building a majority and peacefully protesting! We certainly are a nation of laws, with effective and time-honored ways for the citizens to get action from government!
posted by Frowner at 9:25 AM on May 2 [18 favorites]
That's why when you have a big protest against something deeply unpopular with a majority, the government listens and changes what it does! Consider the 2003 anti-war protests, for instance! And protests against police brutality and immigrant internment! And how we have Medicare for All and childcare subsidies and a beefed up social security and all those great things we've gotten by building a majority and peacefully protesting! We certainly are a nation of laws, with effective and time-honored ways for the citizens to get action from government!
posted by Frowner at 9:25 AM on May 2 [18 favorites]
Per the WKCR reporting, many of the protesters are being charged with misdemeanors. I want everyone to consider the many other crimes that are misdemeanors and consider whether they think it's appropriate for riot cops to attack people to enforce misdemeanor arrests.
posted by corb at 9:27 AM on May 2 [12 favorites]
posted by corb at 9:27 AM on May 2 [12 favorites]
Joe Biden gave his statements about the protests
See above re white moderates; describing occupying buildings and disrupting classes as "violent protest" is absurd nonsense. The violence came when the cops were called in, not before.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:05 AM on May 2 [16 favorites]
See above re white moderates; describing occupying buildings and disrupting classes as "violent protest" is absurd nonsense. The violence came when the cops were called in, not before.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 10:05 AM on May 2 [16 favorites]
WLCR is now giving a live interview with one of the protesters; it's HORRIFIC. According to her, all protesters were together with their hands on their heads when the police started with the brutality. "Some were kicked on limbs, some were kicked in the chest, some in the face...none of us were armed, none of us decided to resist arrest."
posted by corb at 10:28 AM on May 2 [13 favorites]
posted by corb at 10:28 AM on May 2 [13 favorites]
You can tell they’re peaceful protestors as the police were prepared to go near them. Violent mobs they ignore or protect.
posted by Artw at 10:43 AM on May 2 [12 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:43 AM on May 2 [12 favorites]
Pro-Palestinian protesters, University of Minnesota reach agreement to end encampment
posted by Artw at 10:54 AM on May 2 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 10:54 AM on May 2 [2 favorites]
Marjorie Taylor Greene and Mart Gaetz were both against the bill because they thought it might harm actual antisemites, a concern that I suspect is deeply misplaced.
posted by Artw at 12:12 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:12 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]
If anyone has too much time on their hands, then Israels' genocide here does not yeat appear in list of genocides on wikipedia.
Aside from casualties which already appear elsewhere, one could cite Genocide Watch's emergencies & warnings lists for 2024, which discusses Israel in the second half of page 2 of 3 (entry 10 out of 17).
Among the 11 emergencies listed by Genocide Watch, wikipedia only lists Myanmar (43k dead) and Sudan (500k dead) appear marked as continuing through the present day, so maybe some tighter rules on definitions or sources.
Also, there are many past genocides which killed far more people far faster of course, like Rwanda, Cambodia, Zimbabwe, Somalia, and both Congo genocides, but if comapred to other on-going genocides, and assuming Palestine casualty figures hold, then Israel's genocide is killing people slightly faster than in Darfur & Sudan, and much faster than in Myanmar. That seems relevant.
Amusing remarks from the dead birde site:
Why has the US and the EU not demanded an investigation after mass graves were discovered in Gaza?
In the end it's not the Houthis but Columbia University that's about to find out why America doesn't have free healthcare...
As the NYPD’s “strategic response group” .. was originally pitched as an elite counterterror unit that would stop ISIS attacks. 9 yrs on they’re primarily used to spy on and arrest protestors and clear out homeless camps.
I've written on political dissent & violent policing for 15 years, particularly in NYC. Compared to Tuesday night, I have never witnessed, at the scene of a protest, the use of police power so disproportionate to the type of demonstration taking place.
There’s this weird slippage people do where by “peaceful” they mean “lawful” but then they want to use MLK as an example and seem to forget where “letter from Birmingham Jail” was written from
Today the House will vote on a bill to define antisemitism with the intent to increase prosecutions of activity on campuses.
Lifelong Democrat, author of a book on the threat of fascism, Virginia voter, and postdoc at the Yale Program for the Study of Antisemitism.
When *I* say this has gone too far and puts my vote in jeopardy, I don't do it lightly.
And remarks about Minouche Shafik's book lol
posted by jeffburdges at 12:13 PM on May 2 [11 favorites]
Aside from casualties which already appear elsewhere, one could cite Genocide Watch's emergencies & warnings lists for 2024, which discusses Israel in the second half of page 2 of 3 (entry 10 out of 17).
Among the 11 emergencies listed by Genocide Watch, wikipedia only lists Myanmar (43k dead) and Sudan (500k dead) appear marked as continuing through the present day, so maybe some tighter rules on definitions or sources.
Also, there are many past genocides which killed far more people far faster of course, like Rwanda, Cambodia, Zimbabwe, Somalia, and both Congo genocides, but if comapred to other on-going genocides, and assuming Palestine casualty figures hold, then Israel's genocide is killing people slightly faster than in Darfur & Sudan, and much faster than in Myanmar. That seems relevant.
Amusing remarks from the dead birde site:
Why has the US and the EU not demanded an investigation after mass graves were discovered in Gaza?
In the end it's not the Houthis but Columbia University that's about to find out why America doesn't have free healthcare...
As the NYPD’s “strategic response group” .. was originally pitched as an elite counterterror unit that would stop ISIS attacks. 9 yrs on they’re primarily used to spy on and arrest protestors and clear out homeless camps.
I've written on political dissent & violent policing for 15 years, particularly in NYC. Compared to Tuesday night, I have never witnessed, at the scene of a protest, the use of police power so disproportionate to the type of demonstration taking place.
There’s this weird slippage people do where by “peaceful” they mean “lawful” but then they want to use MLK as an example and seem to forget where “letter from Birmingham Jail” was written from
Today the House will vote on a bill to define antisemitism with the intent to increase prosecutions of activity on campuses.
Lifelong Democrat, author of a book on the threat of fascism, Virginia voter, and postdoc at the Yale Program for the Study of Antisemitism.
When *I* say this has gone too far and puts my vote in jeopardy, I don't do it lightly.
And remarks about Minouche Shafik's book lol
posted by jeffburdges at 12:13 PM on May 2 [11 favorites]
A lot of textbook due process violations reported - police withheld food and water from arrested protesters. Police presented felony charging papers (burglary and hate crime) to the protesters even though the DA had given misdemeanor charges. Police failed to give Miranda warnings to arrested protesters.
posted by corb at 12:19 PM on May 2 [6 favorites]
posted by corb at 12:19 PM on May 2 [6 favorites]
Marjorie Taylor Greene and Mart Gaetz were both against the bill because they thought it might harm actual antisemites, a concern that I suspect is deeply misplaced.
And Tucker Carlson has declared that the House of Representatives has voted to "make the New Testament illegal."
Nothin' but good times ahead.
posted by delfin at 1:28 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]
And Tucker Carlson has declared that the House of Representatives has voted to "make the New Testament illegal."
Nothin' but good times ahead.
posted by delfin at 1:28 PM on May 2 [1 favorite]
Evergreen State college agrees to divest from Israel.
This is the college that Rachel Corrie studied at before being crushed under Israeli bulldozers in 2003.
"Corrie, wearing an orange fluorescent vest and speaking through a bullhorn, was determined to stop them. Standing alone on a mound of earth in the path of the armored vehicle, she expected the Israeli bulldozer approaching her to come to a halt, as other bulldozers had done when faced with international protesters.
But it kept going, and, as her fellow activists screamed and tried to stop it, the 23-year-old college student from Olympia, Washington, was crushed to death. The Nasrallah family's children watched in horror through a crack in their garden wall."
posted by CPAnarchist at 1:54 PM on May 2 [15 favorites]
This is the college that Rachel Corrie studied at before being crushed under Israeli bulldozers in 2003.
"Corrie, wearing an orange fluorescent vest and speaking through a bullhorn, was determined to stop them. Standing alone on a mound of earth in the path of the armored vehicle, she expected the Israeli bulldozer approaching her to come to a halt, as other bulldozers had done when faced with international protesters.
But it kept going, and, as her fellow activists screamed and tried to stop it, the 23-year-old college student from Olympia, Washington, was crushed to death. The Nasrallah family's children watched in horror through a crack in their garden wall."
posted by CPAnarchist at 1:54 PM on May 2 [15 favorites]
Claims That Student Protestors Are Chanting 'Death to America' Are Bullshit - But Washington is falling for the hoax, urging an FBI crackdown
posted by Artw at 4:09 PM on May 2 [8 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:09 PM on May 2 [8 favorites]
Rutgers protesters abide by university's 4 p.m. deadline to leave encampment. Here's the latest on postponed exams.
"They accepted eight of the 10 [demands] but not the most important, which is divesting, so that's what we want to do but we also want to respect the campus," one protester said.
posted by armacy at 4:20 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]
"They accepted eight of the 10 [demands] but not the most important, which is divesting, so that's what we want to do but we also want to respect the campus," one protester said.
posted by armacy at 4:20 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]
All the universities that called down violence upon their students and faculty? They could have just waited a little bit. Or thrown out crumbs. Instead they had to apply maximum histrionics, escalate all the way to the federal government and shoot peaceful protestors in the face.
posted by Artw at 4:30 PM on May 2 [14 favorites]
posted by Artw at 4:30 PM on May 2 [14 favorites]
Due to circumstances, I watched ABC World News Tonight this evening. My advice? Don't do that.
posted by ob1quixote at 5:18 PM on May 2 [7 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 5:18 PM on May 2 [7 favorites]
Because of the face-shooting or because of the march-to-Iraq-war style justification of the face shooting?
posted by Artw at 5:30 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 5:30 PM on May 2 [2 favorites]
The reportinglies made me extremely angry, but somehow the reporting on what certain people who believed those lies had to say while standing behind a podium made me even angrier.
Hearing someone speaking reasonably about it did calm me down some.
“Chris Hayes: Why campus protests are ‘the easier debate’” [8:00]—MSNBC, 02 May 2024
Via “1968 Intensifies,” Rusty Foster, Today in Tabs, 02 May 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 5:55 PM on May 2 [8 favorites]
Hearing someone speaking reasonably about it did calm me down some.
“Chris Hayes: Why campus protests are ‘the easier debate’” [8:00]—MSNBC, 02 May 2024
Via “1968 Intensifies,” Rusty Foster, Today in Tabs, 02 May 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 5:55 PM on May 2 [8 favorites]
Starbucks earning call reveals they fell deeply short of their Q1 estimates.
Stock prices down 16 to 20% year-to-date.
Boycotts work
I recommend the No Thanks app, which identifies products that support Israel on the spot.
posted by CPAnarchist at 6:43 PM on May 2 [4 favorites]
Stock prices down 16 to 20% year-to-date.
Boycotts work
I recommend the No Thanks app, which identifies products that support Israel on the spot.
posted by CPAnarchist at 6:43 PM on May 2 [4 favorites]
All the universities that called down violence upon their students and faculty? They could have just waited a little bit. Or thrown out crumbs. Instead they had to apply maximum histrionics, escalate all the way to the federal government and shoot peaceful protestors in the face.
Exactly. It has been completely needless and counterproductive, versus patience, deescalation, and negotiation. (I mean, it's not just a hypothetical, other universities have managed to deescalate successfully.) But it is serving the purpose of polarization and creating a false narrative of chaos, so...
posted by Dip Flash at 7:42 PM on May 2 [3 favorites]
Exactly. It has been completely needless and counterproductive, versus patience, deescalation, and negotiation. (I mean, it's not just a hypothetical, other universities have managed to deescalate successfully.) But it is serving the purpose of polarization and creating a false narrative of chaos, so...
posted by Dip Flash at 7:42 PM on May 2 [3 favorites]
Klippenstein:
Consent to fascism isn't going to manufacture itself, now is it?
posted by flabdablet at 8:16 PM on May 2 [15 favorites]
None of this is because there is any intelligence validating a controlling foreign hand or financing of the student protests. It is, in fact, the news media frenzy that is the most dangerous. Fox and other conservative outlets repeat the false allegation that the students are chanting “Death to America,” commentators and even members of Congress pick up the claim without checking, social media becomes saturated and the new reality emerges.It's a good piece, but "the news media got it wrong" is a misleading framing. Fox and its fellow travellers didn't "get it wrong", they just flat lied. Again. As they do, and have always done every time something that might look a bit like actual democracy threatens to assert itself.
I can imagine right now a meeting on Pennsylvania Avenue in which an official is asking some spy agency to “look into” the allegations. That leads to surveillance and infiltration and pretty soon you have the full force of the national security state involved — all because the news media got it wrong.
Consent to fascism isn't going to manufacture itself, now is it?
posted by flabdablet at 8:16 PM on May 2 [15 favorites]
All the universities that called down violence upon their students and faculty? They could have just waited a little bit.
Yep, the option to deescalate was. right. there. Classes were almost over. Let the students camp out, like universities did with many other protests before. Don't call in the militarized-but-largely-untrained and brutalizing cops, who are just itching to escalate, you fucking dumbasses.
other universities have managed to deescalate successfully.
But that Violates Law And Order! We need to body slam and arrest the woman who's a former head of Dartmouth's Jewish Studies department to show how much we're working to stop anti-semitism!
posted by mediareport at 8:27 PM on May 2 [16 favorites]
Yep, the option to deescalate was. right. there. Classes were almost over. Let the students camp out, like universities did with many other protests before. Don't call in the militarized-but-largely-untrained and brutalizing cops, who are just itching to escalate, you fucking dumbasses.
other universities have managed to deescalate successfully.
But that Violates Law And Order! We need to body slam and arrest the woman who's a former head of Dartmouth's Jewish Studies department to show how much we're working to stop anti-semitism!
posted by mediareport at 8:27 PM on May 2 [16 favorites]
Fox and its fellow travellers
Lordy, I wish this was just FOX and not CNN, MSNBC, New York Times, Atlantic etc… and not just a little bit, they’re all super all in on it.
posted by Artw at 10:48 PM on May 2 [10 favorites]
Lordy, I wish this was just FOX and not CNN, MSNBC, New York Times, Atlantic etc… and not just a little bit, they’re all super all in on it.
posted by Artw at 10:48 PM on May 2 [10 favorites]
nick glastonbury on Twitter:
don’t really see anyone talking about this but: arrestees at CUNY were charged with *felonies* while arrestees at Columbia were charged with misdemeanors. nobody should be charged with anything but it is a travesty that poorer & racialized students bear the brunt of this struggleposted by adrienneleigh at 1:02 AM on May 3 [10 favorites]
NYPD officer fired gun while clearing protesters from Hamilton Hall at Columbia, DA's office confirms
posted by Artw at 6:52 AM on May 3 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 6:52 AM on May 3 [2 favorites]
The police are now trying to use, among other things, "Know Your Rights" pamphlets that they found as evidence of a Sinister Conspiracy. "They had pamphlets telling them not to talk to police" uh bro that is common advice literally every defense lawyer will tell you. What the fuck is this country even anymore.
posted by corb at 7:03 AM on May 3 [12 favorites]
posted by corb at 7:03 AM on May 3 [12 favorites]
“May 2, 2024 ,” Heather Cox Richardson, Letters from an American, 02 May 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 7:29 AM on May 3 [2 favorites]
posted by ob1quixote at 7:29 AM on May 3 [2 favorites]
The NYPD crackdown on Columbia U students was led by a member of the school’s faculty
Rebecca Weiner is a Columbia prof who leads an NYPD intel division that maintains an office in Tel Aviv
Weiner said student "rhetoric" necessitated the violent raid
posted by jeffburdges at 10:14 AM on May 3 [6 favorites]
Rebecca Weiner is a Columbia prof who leads an NYPD intel division that maintains an office in Tel Aviv
Weiner said student "rhetoric" necessitated the violent raid
posted by jeffburdges at 10:14 AM on May 3 [6 favorites]
ICC asks the US stop its intimidation
Federal Surveillance Targeted Israel-Hamas War Protests (twitter)
posted by jeffburdges at 10:17 AM on May 3 [4 favorites]
Federal Surveillance Targeted Israel-Hamas War Protests (twitter)
posted by jeffburdges at 10:17 AM on May 3 [4 favorites]
They just passed a bill making it illegal to accuse Congressman Bryan Mast of dual loyalty to Israel. He wore an Israeli uniform to congress.
Bryan Mast is not Jewish, he's an evangelical Christian who wants to see Jews burn in an inferno, which is why he supports Israel. That's as anti-Semitic as it gets.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:20 AM on May 3 [4 favorites]
Bryan Mast is not Jewish, he's an evangelical Christian who wants to see Jews burn in an inferno, which is why he supports Israel. That's as anti-Semitic as it gets.
posted by jeffburdges at 10:20 AM on May 3 [4 favorites]
ICC asks the US stop its intimidation
And meanwhile Mike Johnson and Chuck Schumer are going to invite Netanyahu (who may plausibly be subject to an ICC arrest warrant for war crimes, by then) to address Congress.
posted by Pseudonymous Cognomen at 11:07 AM on May 3 [2 favorites]
From the Heather Cox Richardson piece:
Biden and Secretary of State Antony Blinken have insisted that Israel has a right to defend itself from Hamas and have continued to provide Israel with military defenses, whose importance in stopping the war from spreading showed on April 14, when those defenses shot down virtually all of the weapons Iran launched at Israel. They are working hard for a ceasefire, with Blinken currently in the Middle East and a proposal on the table that Israel has accepted but Hamas has not.
It's a shame that Iran attacked Israel without provocation like that. I feel chastened in my previous opposition to the US arming this genocide, thank you Heather. Glad we are working so hard for a ceasefire that would make all those weapons transfers unnecessary and irrelevant.
posted by kensington314 at 12:33 PM on May 3
Biden and Secretary of State Antony Blinken have insisted that Israel has a right to defend itself from Hamas and have continued to provide Israel with military defenses, whose importance in stopping the war from spreading showed on April 14, when those defenses shot down virtually all of the weapons Iran launched at Israel. They are working hard for a ceasefire, with Blinken currently in the Middle East and a proposal on the table that Israel has accepted but Hamas has not.
It's a shame that Iran attacked Israel without provocation like that. I feel chastened in my previous opposition to the US arming this genocide, thank you Heather. Glad we are working so hard for a ceasefire that would make all those weapons transfers unnecessary and irrelevant.
posted by kensington314 at 12:33 PM on May 3
“It is only shocking when it happens in certain places,” Garrett Bucks, The White Pages, 02 May 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 12:51 PM on May 3
posted by ob1quixote at 12:51 PM on May 3
Not suggested: Israel stops bombing embassies.
posted by Artw at 12:59 PM on May 3 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 12:59 PM on May 3 [2 favorites]
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posted by AlbertCalavicci at 7:28 AM on April 22 [38 favorites]