Do these guys remember Lyle?
July 27, 2004 2:27 AM Subscribe
So Jason Giambi (likely) has amoebas in his intestines. Funny, this is the kind of potentially fatal illness someone gets when their immune system is weakened by anabolic steroids. A good doctor of a professional athelete is going to tell his patient "if you want to, you know, live through this, stop taking steroids."
Maybe that's why Giambi is only hitting .220 and looks like a pale facsimile of his former self. So given the BALCO investigation and baseball's utter unwillingness to address this issue seriously, how much longer do these guys get away with asking "Who you going to believe? Me or your lying eyes?" before a prominent player goes the way of Lyle Alzado? Is it none of our business? Are steroids just part of modern sports?
I just have this intuition that he was taking steroids--because he joined the Yankees, and the Yankees are Evil.
That said, would one's immune system be weaked during steroid use, or afterward, when one, also, "coincidentally," "bulks-down" and becomes a sucky baseball player?
(And you just assumed ParisParmus would have liked Giambi because PP is Evil, like the Yankees. Well, actually, I'm a Met fan--even after last night's disgrace in Montreal [where they speak French, although probably few of the Expos do])
posted by ParisParamus at 4:12 AM on July 27, 2004
That said, would one's immune system be weaked during steroid use, or afterward, when one, also, "coincidentally," "bulks-down" and becomes a sucky baseball player?
(And you just assumed ParisParmus would have liked Giambi because PP is Evil, like the Yankees. Well, actually, I'm a Met fan--even after last night's disgrace in Montreal [where they speak French, although probably few of the Expos do])
posted by ParisParamus at 4:12 AM on July 27, 2004
To srboisvert's point, there remains no evidence that Alzado's cancer was due to steroid use.
That said, I think there's a pretty interesting piece of circumstantial evidence that I haven't seen developed yet. Someone who actually cares about baseball and knows the stats could probably dig this up, but here's my thought:
Has the number of fights increased over the last decade or so? (Note that you'll need to correct for expansion...)
Because if they have, then there's good reason to believe that there's something driving it. Like, say, use of steroids.
Just a thought...
posted by lodurr at 4:18 AM on July 27, 2004
That said, I think there's a pretty interesting piece of circumstantial evidence that I haven't seen developed yet. Someone who actually cares about baseball and knows the stats could probably dig this up, but here's my thought:
Has the number of fights increased over the last decade or so? (Note that you'll need to correct for expansion...)
Because if they have, then there's good reason to believe that there's something driving it. Like, say, use of steroids.
Just a thought...
posted by lodurr at 4:18 AM on July 27, 2004
From the US Library of Medicine on Ambiasis:
Malnutrition, old age, pregnancy, use of steroids, malignancy (cancer), and alcoholism predispose a person to more severe disease, as does immunosuppression. Recent travel to a tropical region is a risk factor. In the US, amebiasis is most common among gay men and residents of institutions.
So, if Giambi has ambiasis, then perhaps he took steroids. Of course, he might be a crazy gay alcoholic, too.
posted by F Mackenzie at 4:35 AM on July 27, 2004
Malnutrition, old age, pregnancy, use of steroids, malignancy (cancer), and alcoholism predispose a person to more severe disease, as does immunosuppression. Recent travel to a tropical region is a risk factor. In the US, amebiasis is most common among gay men and residents of institutions.
So, if Giambi has ambiasis, then perhaps he took steroids. Of course, he might be a crazy gay alcoholic, too.
posted by F Mackenzie at 4:35 AM on July 27, 2004
Has the number of fights increased over the last decade or so? (Note that you'll need to correct for expansion...)
No, baseball's got less fighting in it. At least according to anecdotal evidence from Jim Bouton and my dad.
posted by Mayor Curley at 4:38 AM on July 27, 2004
No, baseball's got less fighting in it. At least according to anecdotal evidence from Jim Bouton and my dad.
posted by Mayor Curley at 4:38 AM on July 27, 2004
Of course the causal links are all speculation on my part. But it sure does seem like a lot of circumstancial evidence. I just thought I'd throw it all out there. Plus I'm a Red Sox fan... :-)
posted by McBain at 4:42 AM on July 27, 2004
posted by McBain at 4:42 AM on July 27, 2004
All I know is that Giambi is a whole lote cuter now, and we need to know whether it's the diet, the amoebas, or the absence of steroids that's responsible.
posted by stonerose at 4:48 AM on July 27, 2004
posted by stonerose at 4:48 AM on July 27, 2004
Even if your wildly speculative accusations are true, your Nelson-Muntzish ("HA ha") tone is pretty shitty. HA HA - Lance Armstrong probably did performance-enhancing drugs, which probably led to his cancer. FUCK YOU BUDDY! That's what you get!
I find many Americans' attitudes toward steroid abuse very telling. It really intensifies our already overt the top jealousy toward professional athletes.
Steroids are bad, mmkay, but so what? Pressure MLB to get rid of them, fine. But gloating when someone gets sick from using them because you wish you had his paycheck is pretty ugly.
posted by jpoulos at 4:50 AM on July 27, 2004
I find many Americans' attitudes toward steroid abuse very telling. It really intensifies our already overt the top jealousy toward professional athletes.
Steroids are bad, mmkay, but so what? Pressure MLB to get rid of them, fine. But gloating when someone gets sick from using them because you wish you had his paycheck is pretty ugly.
posted by jpoulos at 4:50 AM on July 27, 2004
Has the number of fights increased over the last decade or so? (Note that you'll need to correct for expansion...)
Because if they have, then there's good reason to believe that there's something driving it. Like, say, use of steroids.
There are too many confounders for this. For one, penalties for fights are more severe today. In the old days, there was no ESPN on 24 hours a day to loop the fights over and over and over. Hell, many of the games weren't even televised.
I fully admit this is all speculation on my part, I just thought it might make a good set of links. Giambi may be totally clean and his illness may be totally unrelated. But it just seems like a ton of coincidences. Sure anyone could get amoebas, but someone with an immune system wacked out from years of steroid use seems a little more likely. My wife (a third year medical student) said "Steroids?" immediately when I told her about Giambi's problems while we were at the Yankees-Red Sox game the other night.
posted by McBain at 4:52 AM on July 27, 2004
Because if they have, then there's good reason to believe that there's something driving it. Like, say, use of steroids.
There are too many confounders for this. For one, penalties for fights are more severe today. In the old days, there was no ESPN on 24 hours a day to loop the fights over and over and over. Hell, many of the games weren't even televised.
I fully admit this is all speculation on my part, I just thought it might make a good set of links. Giambi may be totally clean and his illness may be totally unrelated. But it just seems like a ton of coincidences. Sure anyone could get amoebas, but someone with an immune system wacked out from years of steroid use seems a little more likely. My wife (a third year medical student) said "Steroids?" immediately when I told her about Giambi's problems while we were at the Yankees-Red Sox game the other night.
posted by McBain at 4:52 AM on July 27, 2004
HA HA - Lance Armstrong probably did performance-enhancing drugs, which probably led to his cancer. FUCK YOU BUDDY! That's what you get!
I have little reason to believe Lance Armstrong used steroids. Giambi has had rather prominent weight changes as well as being involved in a federal investigation on illegal drugs. If I have a HA HA attitude, it is because I think MLB's drug policy is completely moronic and does nothing to enforce the rules. If Giambi's problems are from drug abuse, the league deserves what they get. And people will continue to question the home run derby we've seen the last few years.
posted by McBain at 4:56 AM on July 27, 2004
I have little reason to believe Lance Armstrong used steroids. Giambi has had rather prominent weight changes as well as being involved in a federal investigation on illegal drugs. If I have a HA HA attitude, it is because I think MLB's drug policy is completely moronic and does nothing to enforce the rules. If Giambi's problems are from drug abuse, the league deserves what they get. And people will continue to question the home run derby we've seen the last few years.
posted by McBain at 4:56 AM on July 27, 2004
But gloating when someone gets sick from using them because you wish you had his paycheck is pretty ugly.
You're misreading me. There is a difference between gloating and having a sort of "Well, what did you think was going to happen?" attitude.
posted by McBain at 5:01 AM on July 27, 2004
You're misreading me. There is a difference between gloating and having a sort of "Well, what did you think was going to happen?" attitude.
posted by McBain at 5:01 AM on July 27, 2004
Didn't his wife and also his teammate, Kevin Brown, have the same parasite? I don't imagine his wife uses 'roids and nobody has accused Brown. Might these circumstances lead you to believe the infection has origins other than the implication of the fpp?
posted by crank at 5:14 AM on July 27, 2004
posted by crank at 5:14 AM on July 27, 2004
Didn't his wife and also his teammate, Kevin Brown, have the same parasite? I don't imagine his wife uses 'roids and nobody has accused Brown. Might these circumstances lead you to believe the infection has origins other than the implication of the fpp?
Some kind of swinging scat party?
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 5:20 AM on July 27, 2004
Some kind of swinging scat party?
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 5:20 AM on July 27, 2004
You can look at any unhealthy behavior and say it is a possible factor. Alcoholism leads to higher rates of all kinds of problems. Same with IV drug use, or unprotected sex or smoking or anything. Since Giambi is already involved in a steroid scandal, it seems as possible a cause for his health problems as any other. Hopefully MLB will wake up.
By the way, Lance is openly tested constantly. MLB players are tested secretly and intermittently.
posted by McBain at 5:26 AM on July 27, 2004
By the way, Lance is openly tested constantly. MLB players are tested secretly and intermittently.
posted by McBain at 5:26 AM on July 27, 2004
jpoulos - I think your post is a bit harsh and excessive (gloating, jealous). I didn't read any of what you accuse McBain of in his post. Sure, it's speculative, but so what. It's not like it's without merit whatsoever.
posted by Witty at 5:44 AM on July 27, 2004
posted by Witty at 5:44 AM on July 27, 2004
You people are all overlooking the obvious- it's a result of kicking his "cheeseburger habit".
OK, seriously. I think Giambi's body is completely breaking down this year after a lifetime of steroid abuse. He's been playing well below normal all year. BUT, I think that the most likely scenario here is food poisoning, given that Kevin Brown has been going through similar (though less drastic) symptoms.
posted by mkultra at 6:22 AM on July 27, 2004
OK, seriously. I think Giambi's body is completely breaking down this year after a lifetime of steroid abuse. He's been playing well below normal all year. BUT, I think that the most likely scenario here is food poisoning, given that Kevin Brown has been going through similar (though less drastic) symptoms.
posted by mkultra at 6:22 AM on July 27, 2004
I think your post is a bit harsh and excessive
Point taken. I should never post before I've had my coffee. I think I conflated McBain's opinion with those of other people I've discussed this with. I think many people, Americans in particular, are jealous of pro athletes, and when things like this happen they tend to gloat.
I also completely flubbed my point on Armstrong. I think people aren't coming down on Armstrong in the way they are on Giambi because cycling doesn't pay as much. (I should have said something like: "You don't hear people saying 'Lance Armstrong did drugs which gave him cancer....'") He's seen as a working-man's hero, not a highly paid celebrity.
posted by jpoulos at 6:23 AM on July 27, 2004
Point taken. I should never post before I've had my coffee. I think I conflated McBain's opinion with those of other people I've discussed this with. I think many people, Americans in particular, are jealous of pro athletes, and when things like this happen they tend to gloat.
I also completely flubbed my point on Armstrong. I think people aren't coming down on Armstrong in the way they are on Giambi because cycling doesn't pay as much. (I should have said something like: "You don't hear people saying 'Lance Armstrong did drugs which gave him cancer....'") He's seen as a working-man's hero, not a highly paid celebrity.
posted by jpoulos at 6:23 AM on July 27, 2004
BUT, I think that the most likely scenario here is food poisoning, given that Kevin Brown has been going through similar (though less drastic) symptoms.
Well, of course, the steroids depress the immune system. The contaminant still has to come from somewhere. Why would Giambi be having a harder time with it possibly? Oh, yeah...
posted by McBain at 6:26 AM on July 27, 2004
Well, of course, the steroids depress the immune system. The contaminant still has to come from somewhere. Why would Giambi be having a harder time with it possibly? Oh, yeah...
posted by McBain at 6:26 AM on July 27, 2004
My god, what do we have here, the Jason Giambi fan-club?
I've never seen so much defense for him except on a Yankees message board.
The man's head is almost the size of Bonds' and Sosa's, and his body seemingly doubled in size at nearly the same time as theirs. Sure, that proves nothing, but at what point does the all of the circumstantial evidence become enough?
Generally the people who poo-poo the whole steroids-in-baseball controversy are those who really don't care much about the game, its history, and the integrity of the records/statistics.
But gloating when someone gets sick from using them because you wish you had his paycheck is pretty ugly.
It has nothing to do with wishing for his paycheck. I gloat whenever any cheater suffers due to the very thing he is using to cheat.
posted by eas98 at 6:27 AM on July 27, 2004
I've never seen so much defense for him except on a Yankees message board.
The man's head is almost the size of Bonds' and Sosa's, and his body seemingly doubled in size at nearly the same time as theirs. Sure, that proves nothing, but at what point does the all of the circumstantial evidence become enough?
Generally the people who poo-poo the whole steroids-in-baseball controversy are those who really don't care much about the game, its history, and the integrity of the records/statistics.
But gloating when someone gets sick from using them because you wish you had his paycheck is pretty ugly.
It has nothing to do with wishing for his paycheck. I gloat whenever any cheater suffers due to the very thing he is using to cheat.
posted by eas98 at 6:27 AM on July 27, 2004
One reason, I think, that people are up in arms (not me, personally...I don't really care much for baseball one way or the other) about the steroid scandals, beyond the simple "they're cheating" aspect of the issue, is the way their use tampers with the historical record. By which I mean, die-hard baseball fans take their history seriously, and if today's stars are juiced up, it makes it hard to compare the feats of Barry Bonds and, say, Joe DiMaggio. A few years ago, when Bonds was hitting 73 HRs and Maguire 70, a lot of people were calling those "Nintendo numbers," because they were off the charts in terms of prior achievements.
Personally, when it comes to the question of steroid use in baseball (and many other sports), where there's smoke there's fire. Occam's Razor also comes into play...funny how a lot of fans will jump through hoops to explain away Bonds' weight gain, the ridicuous surge in power numbers over the past ten years, etc..
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:33 AM on July 27, 2004
Personally, when it comes to the question of steroid use in baseball (and many other sports), where there's smoke there's fire. Occam's Razor also comes into play...funny how a lot of fans will jump through hoops to explain away Bonds' weight gain, the ridicuous surge in power numbers over the past ten years, etc..
posted by The Card Cheat at 6:33 AM on July 27, 2004
I just read a bit about Giambi's potential entamoeba histolytica infection...
"Humans are infected by ingesting cysts, most often via food or water contaminated with human fecal material."
My conclusion is that it is not so much his steroid use as it is his feces-eating.
posted by tpl1212 at 6:36 AM on July 27, 2004
"Humans are infected by ingesting cysts, most often via food or water contaminated with human fecal material."
My conclusion is that it is not so much his steroid use as it is his feces-eating.
posted by tpl1212 at 6:36 AM on July 27, 2004
Well the comparison between eras is complicated also by smaller ballparks and the 'juiced' ball after the '94 strike... and I guess 'juiced' players as well... But really, look at the pre '94 homerun numbers. It was a huge feat to hit over 40 homers as recently as 10 years ago. Now it's fairly commonplace.
posted by crank at 6:39 AM on July 27, 2004
posted by crank at 6:39 AM on July 27, 2004
I've never seen so much defense for him except on a Yankees message board.
a. I'm a Red Sox fan who would just as soon see Giambi's arms fall off it will help the Sox win the division.
b. I love the game and I hate steroids and I think they should banned and anyone who's caught using them should be kicked out of the league.
BUT...
The league has been looking the other way for so long, and the rewards are so great for top players, you can't be surprised that some players have turned to steroids to find an edge.
Like it or not, there are a lot of gray areas here:
1. A lot of athletes don't think it's cheating--since "everyone else is doing it", it's only "leveling the playing field".
2. Who decides which drugs and techniques should be illegal? Should androstenedione be banned? What about creatine? (Obviously, the league should decide. But since they haven't done an acceptable job of banning substances, this remains a gray area.)
3. If the league has been giving tacit approval to this for so long, is it fair to suddenly start enforcing it?
I think the league needs to come down hard on this, but they need to declare a Day One: a day when all past transgressions are forgiven, but after which any violations will be dealt with harshly.
I gloat whenever any cheater suffers due to the very thing he is using to cheat.
So a potentially fatal disease is the price for cheating at baseball? That seems a little harsh, don't you think?
posted by jpoulos at 6:42 AM on July 27, 2004
a. I'm a Red Sox fan who would just as soon see Giambi's arms fall off it will help the Sox win the division.
b. I love the game and I hate steroids and I think they should banned and anyone who's caught using them should be kicked out of the league.
BUT...
The league has been looking the other way for so long, and the rewards are so great for top players, you can't be surprised that some players have turned to steroids to find an edge.
Like it or not, there are a lot of gray areas here:
1. A lot of athletes don't think it's cheating--since "everyone else is doing it", it's only "leveling the playing field".
2. Who decides which drugs and techniques should be illegal? Should androstenedione be banned? What about creatine? (Obviously, the league should decide. But since they haven't done an acceptable job of banning substances, this remains a gray area.)
3. If the league has been giving tacit approval to this for so long, is it fair to suddenly start enforcing it?
I think the league needs to come down hard on this, but they need to declare a Day One: a day when all past transgressions are forgiven, but after which any violations will be dealt with harshly.
I gloat whenever any cheater suffers due to the very thing he is using to cheat.
So a potentially fatal disease is the price for cheating at baseball? That seems a little harsh, don't you think?
posted by jpoulos at 6:42 AM on July 27, 2004
It was a huge feat to hit over 40 homers as recently as 10 years ago. Now it's fairly commonplace.
Not that I don't think steroid abuse contributed to the situation, I think you also need to look at the tremendous advances that are regularly made in the "science" of training. New technologies have made it much easier to identify, for example, mechanical problems with pitchers and minor-but-important injuries.
tpl1212- Yeah, I've seen that as well. Remember that next time you see a cook at a restaurant come out of the bathroom and ask yourself, "Did he wash his hands?"
eas98- I LOVE the Yanks. Giambi is an overrated, overpaid player.
posted by mkultra at 6:46 AM on July 27, 2004
Not that I don't think steroid abuse contributed to the situation, I think you also need to look at the tremendous advances that are regularly made in the "science" of training. New technologies have made it much easier to identify, for example, mechanical problems with pitchers and minor-but-important injuries.
tpl1212- Yeah, I've seen that as well. Remember that next time you see a cook at a restaurant come out of the bathroom and ask yourself, "Did he wash his hands?"
eas98- I LOVE the Yanks. Giambi is an overrated, overpaid player.
posted by mkultra at 6:46 AM on July 27, 2004
Didn't his wife and also his teammate, Kevin Brown, have the same parasite?
Hmmm. So Giambi has amoebiasis. My mother had a fairly severe case of both amoebiasis and giardia (the treatment can be nastier than the disease, btw .... her course of treatment involved arsnic, which was nasty), which she caught from drinking contaminated water on a camping trip. Are you saying that my mother also takes steroids?
McBain, I think, frankly, you didn't read your own link:
"Amebiasis is transmitted by fecal contamination of drinking water and foods, but also by direct contact with dirty hands or objects as well as by sexual contact."
"The infection is "not uncommon" in the tropics and arctics, but also in crowded situations of poor hygiene in temperate-zone urban environments. It is also frequently diagnosed among homosexual men."
(You could say that it is equally likely that he's gay or bisexual as it is likley that this is a result of steriod use.)
"All people are believed to be susceptible to infection, but individuals with a damaged or undeveloped immunity may suffer more severe forms of the disease. AIDS / ARC patients are very vulnerable."
emphasis mine
"The most dramatic incident in the USA was the Chicago World's Fair outbreak in 1933 caused by contaminated drinking water; defective plumbing permitted sewage to contaminate the drinking water. There were 1,000 cases (with 58 deaths). In recent times, food handlers are suspected of causing many scattered infections, but there has been no single large outbreak."
From the amebiasis FAQ:
Who is at risk for amebiasis?
Although anyone can have this disease, it is most common in people who live in developing countries that have poor sanitary conditions. In the United States, amebiasis is most often found in immigrants from developing countries. It also is found in people who have traveled to developing countries and in people who live in institutions that have poor sanitary conditions. Men who have sex with men can become infected and can get sick from the infection, but they often do not have symptoms.
I'm a casual, heartbroken Red Sox fan, but I don't care much about Giambi one way or the other. I'm certainly not defending him out of some misguided "Yankee Love". I do, however, tend to feel bad for a guy who is probably sicker than he's ever been in his life (a severe case of amoebiasis is an awful thing to have, trust me on this), who is still attempting to play a professional sport at a point where you and I would probably be taking some time away from work to rest and recuperate, who now has to defend himself against allegations of some kind of illegal behavior on top of fighting this wretched, wretched illness.
McBain, even you admit that this is "all speculation" on your part ... try to have a bit of sympathy for the guy, won't you. I wouldn't wish his current illness on my worst enemy. All of us spreading idle chatter and gossip on the internet isn't going to help curb steriod use in professional sports.
posted by anastasiav at 6:47 AM on July 27, 2004
Hmmm. So Giambi has amoebiasis. My mother had a fairly severe case of both amoebiasis and giardia (the treatment can be nastier than the disease, btw .... her course of treatment involved arsnic, which was nasty), which she caught from drinking contaminated water on a camping trip. Are you saying that my mother also takes steroids?
McBain, I think, frankly, you didn't read your own link:
"Amebiasis is transmitted by fecal contamination of drinking water and foods, but also by direct contact with dirty hands or objects as well as by sexual contact."
"The infection is "not uncommon" in the tropics and arctics, but also in crowded situations of poor hygiene in temperate-zone urban environments. It is also frequently diagnosed among homosexual men."
(You could say that it is equally likely that he's gay or bisexual as it is likley that this is a result of steriod use.)
"All people are believed to be susceptible to infection, but individuals with a damaged or undeveloped immunity may suffer more severe forms of the disease. AIDS / ARC patients are very vulnerable."
emphasis mine
"The most dramatic incident in the USA was the Chicago World's Fair outbreak in 1933 caused by contaminated drinking water; defective plumbing permitted sewage to contaminate the drinking water. There were 1,000 cases (with 58 deaths). In recent times, food handlers are suspected of causing many scattered infections, but there has been no single large outbreak."
From the amebiasis FAQ:
Who is at risk for amebiasis?
Although anyone can have this disease, it is most common in people who live in developing countries that have poor sanitary conditions. In the United States, amebiasis is most often found in immigrants from developing countries. It also is found in people who have traveled to developing countries and in people who live in institutions that have poor sanitary conditions. Men who have sex with men can become infected and can get sick from the infection, but they often do not have symptoms.
I'm a casual, heartbroken Red Sox fan, but I don't care much about Giambi one way or the other. I'm certainly not defending him out of some misguided "Yankee Love". I do, however, tend to feel bad for a guy who is probably sicker than he's ever been in his life (a severe case of amoebiasis is an awful thing to have, trust me on this), who is still attempting to play a professional sport at a point where you and I would probably be taking some time away from work to rest and recuperate, who now has to defend himself against allegations of some kind of illegal behavior on top of fighting this wretched, wretched illness.
McBain, even you admit that this is "all speculation" on your part ... try to have a bit of sympathy for the guy, won't you. I wouldn't wish his current illness on my worst enemy. All of us spreading idle chatter and gossip on the internet isn't going to help curb steriod use in professional sports.
posted by anastasiav at 6:47 AM on July 27, 2004
I think you also need to look at the tremendous advances that are regularly made in the "science" of training.
This is a good point. For some, drawing the line at performance-enhancing drugs is fairly arbitrary. Babe Ruth didn't have a personal hitting coach who could follow him around, or his own fitness trainer, or a personal chef and dietician, or a million dollar home gym, or the knowledge that today's athletes have about the science of training. Or even video tape of opposing pitchers, for that matter.
For some, the drugs are part of the extra 10% in "giving 110%". And unless MLB is going to be unequivocal in it's opposition to drugs, and 100% clear in what's allowed and what's not, someone is going to cheat. And if one guy cheats, others will cheat to keep up with him.
posted by jpoulos at 6:54 AM on July 27, 2004
This is a good point. For some, drawing the line at performance-enhancing drugs is fairly arbitrary. Babe Ruth didn't have a personal hitting coach who could follow him around, or his own fitness trainer, or a personal chef and dietician, or a million dollar home gym, or the knowledge that today's athletes have about the science of training. Or even video tape of opposing pitchers, for that matter.
For some, the drugs are part of the extra 10% in "giving 110%". And unless MLB is going to be unequivocal in it's opposition to drugs, and 100% clear in what's allowed and what's not, someone is going to cheat. And if one guy cheats, others will cheat to keep up with him.
posted by jpoulos at 6:54 AM on July 27, 2004
So a potentially fatal disease is the price for cheating at baseball? That seems a little harsh, don't you think?
Actually, no. I don't take cheating lightly. I don't cheat at anything, and I have no respect for those who do.
But for argument's sake, I will take it a little further. Maybe Giambi's 'harmless' cheating influences 100 kids to do the same thing and start taking steroids. Maybe this culture of cheating in baseball prevents talented athletes who don't cheat from succeeding, thus preventing them from being able to feed their families. I could go on..
The point is that personal, harmless cheating could have wide ranging negative effects on those around the person cheating, so sympathy is going to be hard to come by from my end.
posted by eas98 at 6:55 AM on July 27, 2004
Actually, no. I don't take cheating lightly. I don't cheat at anything, and I have no respect for those who do.
But for argument's sake, I will take it a little further. Maybe Giambi's 'harmless' cheating influences 100 kids to do the same thing and start taking steroids. Maybe this culture of cheating in baseball prevents talented athletes who don't cheat from succeeding, thus preventing them from being able to feed their families. I could go on..
The point is that personal, harmless cheating could have wide ranging negative effects on those around the person cheating, so sympathy is going to be hard to come by from my end.
posted by eas98 at 6:55 AM on July 27, 2004
Anastasiav, people have already gone over your points. Of course, anyone can have this problem, but steroid use weakens your immune system and makes you more suseptable. Steroid use is a clear risk factor.
try to have a bit of sympathy for the guy, won't you
Of course, but again I'll say my attitude is "What do you expect?" Everyone knows that steroid use causes health problems. I have sympathy for the guy who has lung cancer from smoking, or liver problems from drinking, but what did they expect?
posted by McBain at 7:00 AM on July 27, 2004
try to have a bit of sympathy for the guy, won't you
Of course, but again I'll say my attitude is "What do you expect?" Everyone knows that steroid use causes health problems. I have sympathy for the guy who has lung cancer from smoking, or liver problems from drinking, but what did they expect?
posted by McBain at 7:00 AM on July 27, 2004
A slight aside here, talking about amebiasis..
From the FAQ: On average, about one in 10 people who are infected with E. histolytica becomes sick from the infection.
So does this mean that there could be people carrying this for years without even knowing it? Does ones immune system eventually take care of the problem? And this is just one parasite. It is quite possible that many people out there have parasites in them without knowing.. !
posted by eas98 at 7:01 AM on July 27, 2004
From the FAQ: On average, about one in 10 people who are infected with E. histolytica becomes sick from the infection.
So does this mean that there could be people carrying this for years without even knowing it? Does ones immune system eventually take care of the problem? And this is just one parasite. It is quite possible that many people out there have parasites in them without knowing.. !
posted by eas98 at 7:01 AM on July 27, 2004
All of us spreading idle chatter and gossip on the internet isn't going to help curb steriod use in professional sports.
None of the items is gossip in itself. Giambi has been ill. His name is widely associated with a federal investigation concerning steroids at BALCO. He is noticably smaller (look at the pictures, do you disagree?). I'm only offering a possible connecting of dots.
posted by McBain at 7:04 AM on July 27, 2004
None of the items is gossip in itself. Giambi has been ill. His name is widely associated with a federal investigation concerning steroids at BALCO. He is noticably smaller (look at the pictures, do you disagree?). I'm only offering a possible connecting of dots.
posted by McBain at 7:04 AM on July 27, 2004
Maybe Giambi's 'harmless' cheating influences 100 kids to do the same thing and start taking steroids.
I don't think anyone here is saying his alleged cheating is "harmless". I think it's very serious, and I've said several times it should be dealt with very harshly. I live and breathe baseball for these six months a year, and I think steroid use is a blight on the game. But I can't ignore that this is a complex issue that can't be dealt with with grand pronouncements and righteous moralizing.
Maybe a 'harmless' post on a website suggesting that someone deserves death because they took steroids influences 100 kids to do the same thing and grow up to be callous and cold.
posted by jpoulos at 7:16 AM on July 27, 2004
I don't think anyone here is saying his alleged cheating is "harmless". I think it's very serious, and I've said several times it should be dealt with very harshly. I live and breathe baseball for these six months a year, and I think steroid use is a blight on the game. But I can't ignore that this is a complex issue that can't be dealt with with grand pronouncements and righteous moralizing.
Maybe a 'harmless' post on a website suggesting that someone deserves death because they took steroids influences 100 kids to do the same thing and grow up to be callous and cold.
posted by jpoulos at 7:16 AM on July 27, 2004
For some, the drugs are part of the extra 10% in "giving 110%". And unless MLB is going to be unequivocal in it's opposition to drugs, and 100% clear in what's allowed and what's not, someone is going to cheat. And if one guy cheats, others will cheat to keep up with him.
You are failing to draw on the examples of other sports with unequivocal opposition to medical performance enhancement. What opposition does is produce more effective cheaters and confers an even greater advantage on people with the budget to have the latest undetectable juice. Look at how many of the BALCO targets are Olympic athletes.
BTW: You have got to love Google's Ad Sense on this thread...
posted by srboisvert at 7:53 AM on July 27, 2004
You are failing to draw on the examples of other sports with unequivocal opposition to medical performance enhancement. What opposition does is produce more effective cheaters and confers an even greater advantage on people with the budget to have the latest undetectable juice. Look at how many of the BALCO targets are Olympic athletes.
BTW: You have got to love Google's Ad Sense on this thread...
posted by srboisvert at 7:53 AM on July 27, 2004
You are failing to draw on the examples of other sports with unequivocal opposition to medical performance enhancement.
Agreed. People will cheat, as long as it's possible to cheat. Perhaps what I should have said is that you can't expect the athletes to stay clean on principle alone.
posted by jpoulos at 8:41 AM on July 27, 2004
Agreed. People will cheat, as long as it's possible to cheat. Perhaps what I should have said is that you can't expect the athletes to stay clean on principle alone.
posted by jpoulos at 8:41 AM on July 27, 2004
My thinking is that Giambi did take steroids and stopped this year resulting in much lower numbers so he comes up with all these possible medical reasons for the slumping to cover it up and set himself up to retire quietly at the end of the year. I'd be incredibly surprised if he returned next year even though I'm 99% positive all these tests for terminal diseases will come back negative.
Yea I hate the yankees and yea it's my opinion and yea I feel sorry for him.
posted by Hypharse at 8:49 AM on July 27, 2004
Yea I hate the yankees and yea it's my opinion and yea I feel sorry for him.
posted by Hypharse at 8:49 AM on July 27, 2004
Are you saying that my mother also takes steroids?
In fact I was implying the exact opposite: that there a reasons other than steroid use to explain Giambi's malady... especially considering that others around him had the same parasite.
My thinking is that Giambi did take steroids and stopped this year resulting in much lower numbers so he comes up with all these possible medical reasons for the slumping to cover it up and set himself up to retire quietly at the end of the year. I'd be incredibly surprised if he returned next year even though I'm 99% positive all these tests for terminal diseases will come back negative.
He's been bad this year for sure, but his offensive numbers as a whole have been way down. I don't think there's any doubt that steroid use could turn a warning-track flyball into a homerun, but is there any reason the believe steroids would make you a better contact hitter? I think you can either pick up the ball as it leaves the pitcher's hand or you can't. No banned substance will give you a better eye in the batter's box. Plus, he looked absolutely awful in his pinch hit in that excellent yankees-red sox game a few weeks ago. It's clear there was something seriously wrong with him....
posted by crank at 9:04 AM on July 27, 2004
In fact I was implying the exact opposite: that there a reasons other than steroid use to explain Giambi's malady... especially considering that others around him had the same parasite.
My thinking is that Giambi did take steroids and stopped this year resulting in much lower numbers so he comes up with all these possible medical reasons for the slumping to cover it up and set himself up to retire quietly at the end of the year. I'd be incredibly surprised if he returned next year even though I'm 99% positive all these tests for terminal diseases will come back negative.
He's been bad this year for sure, but his offensive numbers as a whole have been way down. I don't think there's any doubt that steroid use could turn a warning-track flyball into a homerun, but is there any reason the believe steroids would make you a better contact hitter? I think you can either pick up the ball as it leaves the pitcher's hand or you can't. No banned substance will give you a better eye in the batter's box. Plus, he looked absolutely awful in his pinch hit in that excellent yankees-red sox game a few weeks ago. It's clear there was something seriously wrong with him....
posted by crank at 9:04 AM on July 27, 2004
McBain, could not find one link which is a clue here regarding parasite = steroids.
I'm only offering a possible connecting of dots.
If I missed the dot that points this out, please connect me.
posted by thomcatspike at 9:08 AM on July 27, 2004
I'm only offering a possible connecting of dots.
If I missed the dot that points this out, please connect me.
posted by thomcatspike at 9:08 AM on July 27, 2004
I remember how skinny poor lean Tony Kukoc was back when he played in Europe.
then he goes to America and -- BOOM! he suddendly gets the massive deltoids, the bulky trapezii, the Hulk-like latissimi dorsi.
it's gotta be that USDA prime beef, I say.
same for the ball players who land in the USA from the Caribbean and they suddendly grow 25 pounds of muscle.
you know, pro athletes lift a lot of weights outside of the US, too. so it's kinda... weird?
anyway having said that, it's hard to tell wether Giambi's illness is steroid-related. he certainly is half the man he used to be. but of course steroids use make you more prone (potentially) to various injuries, like tendon problems et al.
I suggest this book:
"You're Okay, It's Just a Bruise": A Doctor's Sideline Secrets About Pro Football's Most Outrageous Team
by Rob Huizenga
posted by matteo at 9:15 AM on July 27, 2004
then he goes to America and -- BOOM! he suddendly gets the massive deltoids, the bulky trapezii, the Hulk-like latissimi dorsi.
it's gotta be that USDA prime beef, I say.
same for the ball players who land in the USA from the Caribbean and they suddendly grow 25 pounds of muscle.
you know, pro athletes lift a lot of weights outside of the US, too. so it's kinda... weird?
anyway having said that, it's hard to tell wether Giambi's illness is steroid-related. he certainly is half the man he used to be. but of course steroids use make you more prone (potentially) to various injuries, like tendon problems et al.
I suggest this book:
"You're Okay, It's Just a Bruise": A Doctor's Sideline Secrets About Pro Football's Most Outrageous Team
by Rob Huizenga
posted by matteo at 9:15 AM on July 27, 2004
but is there any reason the believe steroids would make you a better contact hitter?
If anything, I would think steroids would make you a worse contact hitter. Bigger == slower.
Having said that, I would imagine that significant weight loss or a change in the size or proportions of one's body could seriously mess up one's swing.
posted by jpoulos at 9:15 AM on July 27, 2004
If anything, I would think steroids would make you a worse contact hitter. Bigger == slower.
Having said that, I would imagine that significant weight loss or a change in the size or proportions of one's body could seriously mess up one's swing.
posted by jpoulos at 9:15 AM on July 27, 2004
but steroid use weakens your immune system and makes you more suseptable
Ok found yourtin foil hat educated guess.
posted by thomcatspike at 9:23 AM on July 27, 2004
Ok found your
posted by thomcatspike at 9:23 AM on July 27, 2004
McBain, could not find one link which is a clue here regarding parasite = steroids.
Because that would be a fucking moronic statement. How many times does it need to be explained? Read the thread, jesus.
posted by McBain at 9:24 AM on July 27, 2004
Because that would be a fucking moronic statement. How many times does it need to be explained? Read the thread, jesus.
posted by McBain at 9:24 AM on July 27, 2004
thomcatspike- Ah.. those medical doctors and their tinfoil hats.
See your response now.
posted by McBain at 9:26 AM on July 27, 2004
See your response now.
posted by McBain at 9:26 AM on July 27, 2004
I think many people, Americans in particular, are jealous of pro athletes, and when things like this happen they tend to gloat.
I agree with you 99% of the time, jpoulos, but I reserve my right to Shaqenfreude.
posted by Ufez Jones at 9:54 AM on July 27, 2004
I agree with you 99% of the time, jpoulos, but I reserve my right to Shaqenfreude.
posted by Ufez Jones at 9:54 AM on July 27, 2004
but I reserve my right to Shaqenfreude.
I remember when Shaq signed his first contract. Here I was, a college graduate, and this kid two years younger than me was making literally 100 times more than I was. I pulled out my wallet--I had 32 dollars. "So Shaq's walking around with $3,200 in pocket change right now," I thought.
I never liked that guy.
posted by jpoulos at 10:42 AM on July 27, 2004
I remember when Shaq signed his first contract. Here I was, a college graduate, and this kid two years younger than me was making literally 100 times more than I was. I pulled out my wallet--I had 32 dollars. "So Shaq's walking around with $3,200 in pocket change right now," I thought.
I never liked that guy.
posted by jpoulos at 10:42 AM on July 27, 2004
See your response now.
My attack on you was settle - I did see where you linked it, then commented above. He is sick what more should we further prove?
Have you ever been wrongly accused by the medical profession regarding your private life? Add, they discussed it with your family and & friends w/o your knowledge - I have.
posted by thomcatspike at 10:46 AM on July 27, 2004
My attack on you was settle - I did see where you linked it, then commented above. He is sick what more should we further prove?
Have you ever been wrongly accused by the medical profession regarding your private life? Add, they discussed it with your family and & friends w/o your knowledge - I have.
posted by thomcatspike at 10:46 AM on July 27, 2004
Thom- I should have said "On preview" I was trying to say, that I see it is settled now.
posted by McBain at 10:55 AM on July 27, 2004
posted by McBain at 10:55 AM on July 27, 2004
So does this mean that there could be people carrying this for years without even knowing it? Does ones immune system eventually take care of the problem?
eas98: I came down with amebic dysentery about 30 years ago. (It was severe enough that I crossed the legendary line between fearing I would die and fearing I wouldn't die soon enough.) Several courses of antibiotics cleared up the more obvious effects. Some of the other people in my unit tested positive for amebiasis, but none showed as severe effects as I did.
One thing the doctor said struck me: "Don't even think about ever donating blood." I've always assumed that the parasite is lurking within, sort of like malaria.
posted by joaquim at 11:04 AM on July 27, 2004
eas98: I came down with amebic dysentery about 30 years ago. (It was severe enough that I crossed the legendary line between fearing I would die and fearing I wouldn't die soon enough.) Several courses of antibiotics cleared up the more obvious effects. Some of the other people in my unit tested positive for amebiasis, but none showed as severe effects as I did.
One thing the doctor said struck me: "Don't even think about ever donating blood." I've always assumed that the parasite is lurking within, sort of like malaria.
posted by joaquim at 11:04 AM on July 27, 2004
If you had parisites living in your intestine, you'd loose a lot of weight too, regardless of steriod use.
This is so obvious, in fact, that I have to point out that McBain is a complete idiot.
posted by delmoi at 11:20 AM on July 27, 2004
This is so obvious, in fact, that I have to point out that McBain is a complete idiot.
posted by delmoi at 11:20 AM on July 27, 2004
McBain, that is fine, after I posted, wondered if you meant that. {talking through a monitor can create an illusion on my part}
Recall Rush L. going deaf. Then we find out down the road - his drug use was the cause.
posted by thomcatspike at 11:22 AM on July 27, 2004
Recall Rush L. going deaf. Then we find out down the road - his drug use was the cause.
posted by thomcatspike at 11:22 AM on July 27, 2004
delmoi: Did you read joaqium's comment? Did you know everyone has E. Coli inside of them? It's a foreign strand of E. Coli that kills you. And, everyone has cancerous cells inside of them- they get weeded out 99.9% of the time, though. So, yea, your "fact" isn't so obvious.
posted by jmd82 at 11:41 AM on July 27, 2004
posted by jmd82 at 11:41 AM on July 27, 2004
If you had parisites living in your intestine, you'd loose a lot of weight too, regardless of steriod use.
No shit? Begs the question, what allowed them to get out of control? Could it be a depressed immune system? An immune system depressed by steroid use? Thanks for playing! Who's the idiot?
posted by McBain at 12:27 PM on July 27, 2004
No shit? Begs the question, what allowed them to get out of control? Could it be a depressed immune system? An immune system depressed by steroid use? Thanks for playing! Who's the idiot?
posted by McBain at 12:27 PM on July 27, 2004
Remember when he jacked those two homers over the center field wall against Pedro in game 7 of the ALCS?
posted by crank at 4:18 PM on July 27, 2004
posted by crank at 4:18 PM on July 27, 2004
Shouldn't it be amoebae ?
I don't think amoebas is the plural of amoeba
posted by davebarnes at 7:37 PM on July 27, 2004
I don't think amoebas is the plural of amoeba
posted by davebarnes at 7:37 PM on July 27, 2004
More circumstantial evidence, apart from the ones mentioned above:
* Dying young (eg. Flo Jo).
* Getting a bad case of acne zits in your mid to late 20s (eg. any number of USA track and field athletes from 1984 on).
* Needing to get braces on your teeth in your mid to late 20s (eg. any number of USA track and field athletes from 1984 on).
* Needing a heart operation (eg. Arnie).
posted by uncanny hengeman at 11:45 PM on July 27, 2004
* Dying young (eg. Flo Jo).
* Getting a bad case of acne zits in your mid to late 20s (eg. any number of USA track and field athletes from 1984 on).
* Needing to get braces on your teeth in your mid to late 20s (eg. any number of USA track and field athletes from 1984 on).
* Needing a heart operation (eg. Arnie).
posted by uncanny hengeman at 11:45 PM on July 27, 2004
Can someone explain to me why we give such a titanic shit about steroids in baseball?
I mean, really. The equivalent of something like three entire major league teams (an equivalent number of players) is found, in anonymous testing, to be using some sort of banned substance, and it takes baseball months and years on end to really start addressing the problem.
The solution isn't really that complicated: season-long, random, public-results testing for performance-enhancing substances.
But then, who cares. Maybe we should all just admit that we enjoy seeing Barry Bonds et al hit an ever-increasing number of dingers every year.
posted by Yelling At Nothing at 12:35 AM on July 28, 2004
I mean, really. The equivalent of something like three entire major league teams (an equivalent number of players) is found, in anonymous testing, to be using some sort of banned substance, and it takes baseball months and years on end to really start addressing the problem.
The solution isn't really that complicated: season-long, random, public-results testing for performance-enhancing substances.
But then, who cares. Maybe we should all just admit that we enjoy seeing Barry Bonds et al hit an ever-increasing number of dingers every year.
posted by Yelling At Nothing at 12:35 AM on July 28, 2004
BART: But why Mr. McGwire?
McGWIRE: Do you want to know the terrifying truth? Or do you want to see me sock a few dingers!
EVERYONE: Dingers! Dingers!"
posted by jpoulos at 6:21 AM on July 28, 2004
McGWIRE: Do you want to know the terrifying truth? Or do you want to see me sock a few dingers!
EVERYONE: Dingers! Dingers!"
posted by jpoulos at 6:21 AM on July 28, 2004
The best reason to care about steroids and other performance drugs in sports is to help the athletes who want to compete cleanly. In any sport that looks the other way, the doping athletes will get a huge edge, leading to a situation where the clean competitors must decide whether to accept that disadvantage, and likely end up a loser, or join the cheaters.
Genuine sports fans ought to help the clean athletes stay that way by putting pressure on the governing bodies to test and bar doping.
posted by rcade at 6:28 AM on July 28, 2004
Genuine sports fans ought to help the clean athletes stay that way by putting pressure on the governing bodies to test and bar doping.
posted by rcade at 6:28 AM on July 28, 2004
BTW, it is now being reported that Giambi has a benign tumor.
posted by terrapin at 6:56 AM on July 31, 2004
posted by terrapin at 6:56 AM on July 31, 2004
* Dying young (eg. Flo Jo).
A coroner's report says the sprinter Florence Griffith Joyner, whose death at 38 shocked the athletics world, suffered an epileptic seizure that caused her to suffocate
posted by thomcatspike at 9:00 AM on August 10, 2004
A coroner's report says the sprinter Florence Griffith Joyner, whose death at 38 shocked the athletics world, suffered an epileptic seizure that caused her to suffocate
posted by thomcatspike at 9:00 AM on August 10, 2004
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This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
Lets see...
Lyle Alzado had brain tumors.
Lyle Alzado took steroids.
Therefore steroids cause cancer.
Jason Giambi may have intestinal parasites.
Jason Giambi may have taken steroids
Therefore steroids cause intestnal parasites.
It is important to keep in mind that a certain proportion of MLB players will get some sort of serious illness not because of any 'evil' steroid usage but because they represent a sample of humanity. One thing that people do is get sick, often with no clear cause.
Some key quotes from your cited articles:
"Although there is no medical link between steroids and brain lymphoma, Alzado was certain the drugs were responsible for his cancer. He became a symbol of the dangers of steroid abuse"
I don't know about you but I don't want a football player as my doctor or medical researcher.
"All people are believed to be susceptible to infection, but individuals with a damaged or undeveloped immunity may suffer more severe forms of the disease. AIDS / ARC patients are very vulnerable."
While I personally don't doubt that performance enhancing drug use is endemic in pro sports I do find myself wondering if the link to health problems is based on a WMD style investigation. Because we have a preconceived sense that the drugs are bad for sports we select evidence that provides a scientific and medical basis for our moral outrage at cheating while ignoring the caveats and qualifiers.
Would everything be okay if the players were allowed to take steroids and the players' health was protected by professional medical staff aggressively monitoring their drug use? I suspect the real issue here is the moral indignation at cheating more than a concern for players health.
posted by srboisvert at 4:03 AM on July 27, 2004