cruel and unusual

July 1, 2005 4:34 PM

U.S. to Seize State Prison Health System The California Prison Health system kills an inmate a week due to neglect or incompetence, so a federal judge put the entire system into receivership. Thing is, that's not that half of it.
posted by raaka (46 comments total)

Horrified doesn't even begin to cover my feelings after reading these two links (well, I'm still reading the second one).

And fear at how little attention is given to Hepatitis.
posted by fenriq at 4:51 PM on July 1, 2005

Well, my disgust certainly didn't improve as I finished reading the link to the Wrongful Death Institute. Truly appalling and disgusting and made all the worse that there's nothing being done to stop it. CMS gets to keep making fat money off the pain of prisoner's who have no alternative.

Scary, sad and completely avoidable.
posted by fenriq at 5:16 PM on July 1, 2005

Who was it that said something akin to, "The civility of a nation can be judged by the state of it's prisons."?

I don't remember the exact quote, but jeez, it seems to aply here.
posted by snsranch at 5:21 PM on July 1, 2005

Apply.
posted by snsranch at 5:23 PM on July 1, 2005

Dostoevsky, who would know.
posted by kenko at 5:37 PM on July 1, 2005

These stories are terrible. How can we expect to rehabilitate anyone in a system like this?
posted by LeeJay at 6:09 PM on July 1, 2005

kenko: thank you.

LeeJay: yes, clearly this system is all about punishment.

I'm waiting for comments like, "Well they ARE convicts, screw 'em!"

California is a state in which, many times, illegal immigrants get better health care that lower class law-abiding (tax-paying) citizens. Why should I be surprised that convicted criminals are treated like animals when law-abiding folks are too?

The problem is bigger than the prison system. It's just plain poor management.
posted by snsranch at 6:44 PM on July 1, 2005

snsranch, I wouldn't pity inmates if they were denied NyQuil for the sniffles, but this is definitely way beyond that. I agree with your assessment on illegal immigrants versus pretty much any taxpayer without health insurance. The US health care system is seriously broken, and we're going to be hearing about it worse and worse as the baby boomer generation ages more and needs more pill popping just to get out of bed each morning.
posted by Saydur at 7:00 PM on July 1, 2005

To cut off the "well they are convicts" jerk before he starts, yes these people were convicted of crimes. But none of them were sentenced to death.
posted by ilsa at 7:28 PM on July 1, 2005

I agree with your assessment on illegal immigrants versus pretty much any taxpayer without health insurance.

Huh? There aren't special free clinics just for illegal immigrants. If you're a poor illegal, then you're just as screwed as a poor legal resident if you run into health problems.
posted by rdr at 7:30 PM on July 1, 2005

What was Leland Hunley in prison for?
posted by buzzman at 7:42 PM on July 1, 2005

ilsa: Actually, some of them weren't convicted of crimes. Remember, some people are in the system awaiting trail. Judging from the articles, they don't get preferential medical treatment...
posted by kaemaril at 8:09 PM on July 1, 2005

Actually, kaemaril, I believe that people awaiting trial go to jail which is under the care of the counties, rather than prison that is under the care of the state.

Irrespective of that, however, it doesn't matter if someone has been convicted of a crime or not; this is wrong.
posted by leftcoastbob at 8:31 PM on July 1, 2005

rdr: calling B.S. No there are not "special free clinics". They can just walk into any old hospital and get care. That's a federal mandate that is not paid for by the feds. Can YOU do that? No.
posted by snsranch at 8:37 PM on July 1, 2005

Sorry if my comments take away from the post. This is a horrible situation in which the shit, as usual, just happens to run down-hill.

I want to hear Gov. Arnold's take on this. I voted for him, perhaps foolishly, and I am disappointed. I want reform NOW.
posted by snsranch at 8:40 PM on July 1, 2005

leftcoastbob: from the second link --> I was also interested to hear about jailhouse medicine in general. People in prison, after all, have been convicted of a crime and have forfeited some of their rights (the right to vote, the right to own handguns, etc.), but most people in jail are still awaiting trial, and they haven't necessarily been convicted of anything. Not only have those awaiting trial not forfeited their rights; they are still officially innocent. Our legal system takes great pains to insist on this, so I was curious to know whether or not it made any difference to CMS.

The short answer, according to Christy (former CMS nurse being interviewed in the article), was no
posted by kaemaril at 8:44 PM on July 1, 2005

Ironically, I bet the inmates on death row end up getting better health care than most of the others. Gotta keep them well enough to execute, ya know?
posted by fenriq at 8:52 PM on July 1, 2005

" the general population, where the infection rate is, for now, only about 2 percent. "

Two percent actually seems pretty high for such a nasty chronic disease. Is this true?
posted by weston at 8:52 PM on July 1, 2005

rdr: calling B.S. No there are not "special free clinics". They can just walk into any old hospital and get care. That's a federal mandate that is not paid for by the feds. Can YOU do that? No.

I was under the impression that the federal mandate requires hospitals to treat anyone regardless of their ability to pay. So technically, yes, he can do that. Anyone can. It's not just illegal immigrants.
posted by LeeJay at 9:03 PM on July 1, 2005

LeeJay: Sorry, but that's wrong. I know from first hand experience that illegal immigrants get priority over uninsured citizens. This is just true, and not cool at all.
posted by snsranch at 9:16 PM on July 1, 2005

This is an excellent post, and as a Californian, an important one. I don't fear being an inmate any time soon, but I do feel some resposnsibility for this.

Does anyone have any ideas how this problem can be resolved?
posted by snsranch at 9:24 PM on July 1, 2005

just think - a lot of those prisoners are there because the government's got to ensure the public health by banning drugs ... but i guess hepatitis c is another matter ...

don't ask where our homegrown terrorists are going to come from ... i think we know
posted by pyramid termite at 9:25 PM on July 1, 2005

snsranch, you are mistaken. Federally mandated clinics are open to anyone, regardless of their citizen status. Look at slide #5. I know sometimes it looks as if the poorest amongst us really have it made, what with all the free stuff the government gives away (especially free medicine! Who ever heard of such a thing?) but no... in fact the free stuff is up for grabs by pretty much anyone.
Except for free college. That's only for smart people or kids with poor parents.
posted by Baby_Balrog at 9:27 PM on July 1, 2005

I know from first hand experience that illegal immigrants get priority over uninsured citizens.

Why do you spend your time wandering around ER's asking people nosy questions about their citizenship, immigration status, and health insurance? That being the only way you could know who was illegal, and who were citizens, and who had health insurance and who didn't.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:47 PM on July 1, 2005

Wow, you guys are really sharp tonight. But actually not so much.

1. I am not talking about "free clinics". That is a different story. I am saying that EVERY HOSPITAL according to federal mandate MUST SERVICE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, but not you citizens, UNLESS YOU HAVE INSURANCE.

2. ROU_Xenophobe: You said it yourself in your profile, TEX-ASS.

3. Wake up, it's only getting worse.
posted by snsranch at 9:57 PM on July 1, 2005

LeeJay: Sorry, but that's wrong. I know from first hand experience that illegal immigrants get priority over uninsured citizens. This is just true, and not cool at all.

So what you're saying is, if someone shows up at a hospital they ask if they are an illegal, and if they actual they get better treatment?

1. I am not talking about "free clinics". That is a different story. I am saying that EVERY HOSPITAL according to federal mandate MUST SERVICE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, but not you citizens, UNLESS YOU HAVE INSURANCE.

Ah, so you are.

As far as I know police in California aren't even allowed to ask about a person's immigration status, so I doubt hospital workers are even allowed to ask that question. I don't believe its legal to turn anyone away for necessary medical work because they do not have insurance. If you show up, you get treated, if you don't have insurance they send you a bill. If you don't pay the bill you get bad credit, and eventually, I guess they could sue you but I doubt this happens very often. It used to be you would declare bankruptcy but recent laws have made that a lot harder, if not impossible.

Unless you can come up with some documented evidence that this has happened, at least have the decency to stop making the claim.
posted by delmoi at 10:15 PM on July 1, 2005

Also illegal immigrants do pay taxes, $7 billion in social security gets paid by illegal immigrants.
posted by delmoi at 10:16 PM on July 1, 2005

snsranch, you are mistaken. Federally mandated clinics are open to anyone, regardless of their citizen status. Look at slide #5. I know sometimes it looks as if the poorest amongst us really have it made, what with all the free stuff the government gives away

I realize you're being sarcastic, but in fact poor people pay more for a lot of things, especialy any kind of financial service.
posted by delmoi at 10:18 PM on July 1, 2005

snsranch:

You're confused. You can't even get the basic anti-immigrant rhethoric right. There is a problem funding emergency services for illegal immigrants. The costs fall on local government and the anti-immigrant people are all in a tizzy about how this is a unfunded federal mandate.

There is a mandate that health care be provided to anyone who needs it. How you go from this to "knowing for certain" that "illegal immigrants get priority over uninsured citizens" is a mystery to me.
posted by rdr at 10:25 PM on July 1, 2005

All I can say after reading the second link is that this is sick, and borders on the sadistic.

Unfortunately I can't say that I'm entirely shocked. It does represent an institutional counterpart to most Americans' attitude towards those who are in prison.
posted by clevershark at 10:57 PM on July 1, 2005

clevershark, I agree. I need look no further than certain members of my own family to hear about how convicts deserve no rights at all. We need a complete overhaul not only of the prison system itself but of our own views on what that system is for and how it can accomplish its goals. But how do we do that?
posted by LeeJay at 11:00 PM on July 1, 2005

As an ex-Californian, I find it heartwarming to the extreme to see that fine state spreading it's kindness, wealth and grace to one and all equally, in it's long-running, everloving tradition.

(And if I have to clarify whether or not I'm snarking here...)
posted by Samizdata at 11:11 PM on July 1, 2005

And, FWIW, although I do believe that convicts do deserve the forfeiture of a broad spectrum of rights, I do not believe health care is one of them, especially not when dealing with conditions inflicted by the prison system itself...
posted by Samizdata at 11:13 PM on July 1, 2005

My father worked for nearly 40 years in San Quentin Prison.

He died more than 10 years ago, but at the time, it was his opinion that there was no more corrupt institution in the state than the prison system. I see no sign that it has improved in the least.

People want to 'get tough on prisoners!', but they just have no idea what they're asking for. What's worse, is it doesn't work... if you treat people like animals, that's what they will become.

After he died, I heard over and over again from friends of my father, "Prison isn't the answer, it just doesn't work. We really wish we knew what did, because this is awful." And that was from a reasonably well-run prison (SQ) 10 years ago. (I went on a tour after he died, and no fewer than four separate people in four separate conversations said that to me, in various different ways. No joke!)

He stayed, I believe, because he could do some good there. And they tried like hell to get rid of him, but they were never able to. He was very proud of that.

In the California prison system, the staff is probably less human than their prisoners... and from everything I've heard, as Corrections departments go, that's a VERY GOOD one.

Most are worse. Much worse. "Wretched hives of scum and villainy" doesn't begin to cover it... and I haven't even gotten to the prisoners yet.
posted by Malor at 12:01 AM on July 2, 2005

CMS response to the second article.
posted by swell at 12:47 AM on July 2, 2005

...with a trough of bullshit.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 3:55 AM on July 2, 2005

Can we get Ken Lay convicted in California? And Ahnold too?
posted by nofundy at 4:00 AM on July 2, 2005

Two anecdotes on this subject (from my blog)
posted by glider at 5:25 AM on July 2, 2005

snsranch: "I am saying that EVERY HOSPITAL according to federal mandate MUST SERVICE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, but not you citizens, UNLESS YOU HAVE INSURANCE."

Please reread your lastest Minuteman/Malkin Project Buzz Flash email, your messing up the talking points.

Hospitals cannot refuse emergency treatment to *anybody* based on ability to pay. Your facts are simply wrong as even the most cursory Google search reveals. The level and quality of services provided to undocumented aliens and low income people in general is a worthwhile topic of discussion and in my opinion a fucking travesty, but to put forth the blatantly false concept that illegals somehow recieve preferential treatment isn't helping your case. Private practioners, clinics or hospitals (those who do not recieve state/federal funding or participate in the Medicare program) are not going to treat the poor regardless of immigration status. The lack of a green card or citizenship has no more bearing on eligibility than a Social Security card or US birth certificate does.

On the other hand, who has less income than the lowest paid day laborer? Who has less access to information than a non-English speaking new immigrant? Who engenders less sympathy than a migrant farm worker? Is it any wonder that prisoners recieve substandard health care when there are tens of thousands of children who cannot obtain adequate medical care.
posted by cedar at 5:33 AM on July 2, 2005

i had a serious medical problem a few years ago and didn't have any insurance ... first, they admitted me to the hospital and began treatment ... they didn't start asking me about insurance until the next day

snsranch, a public hospital DOES have to admit you, whoever you are ... and if you're sick enough, they'll take care of the problem first and then worry about the bill ... even after they learned i didn't have any, that didn't stop them from scheduling me for surgery the next month ... it was a very serious condition and they insisted, even though they knew they might never get paid ... none of the doctors or nurses or anyone hassled me about it

the bill collection department is another story ...
posted by pyramid termite at 6:48 AM on July 2, 2005

An attorney for the inmate plaintiffs, who claimed in a 2001 class-action lawsuit that prison healthcare amounted to unconstitutionally cruel and unusual punishment

This has been an interest of mine for some time. Prison for the able-bodied is hell, but for the sick or handicapped is unfathomable. Imagine life in prison with eczema, for example, or M.S. or asthma, or diabetes. Or something as simple as the flu.

At home there are cool sheets and OTC medicines to control the aches and fever and vomiting and diarrhea. There is a quiet darkened bedroom, and fruit juices, and television. There is a clean bathroom and privacy and fresh pajamas to change into. Somehow I don't think these amenities are available to the inmate.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:05 AM on July 2, 2005

but most people in jail are still awaiting trial, and they haven't necessarily been convicted of anything.

Just to clarify, people in California awaiting trial or sentencing are held in County jails. Everyone incarcerated in the state prison system has been convicted and sentenced.

In January I was wondering where the Frank Johnson of today was. It is good to know he is in California.

In the early 1970s Johnson made important rulings regarding the rights of two other neglected groups in Alabama -- mental patients and the incarcerated. He called for the state to reform Alabama’s mental hospitals, or "human warehouses" as the judge called them, and affirmed the right of patients to adequate care and treatment. In 1975 Johnson issued a court order requiring Alabama to improve the "barbaric" conditions in its state prisons.
posted by mlis at 7:36 AM on July 2, 2005

perhaps this is why california is implementing draconian outdoor smoking bans? a distraction from the real issues plaguing society.
posted by brandz at 8:00 AM on July 2, 2005

CMS response to the second article.

"It is easy to vilify a corporation and to blame it for any number of problems."

That's funny because it's true.

I especially like the "The allegation is false" thing.
Outside observer: untrustworthy. Motivated by...uh... being caustic and bias.

CMS: trustworthy. Motivated by professional commitment (to profit).

Ah well, at least the prisoner's health care is free right? Perhaps they should have thought of this before they committed a crime. Crime doesn't pay. Slogan, slogan slogan. (etc).

I'd play the devils advocate, but I'm not that devilish.
posted by Smedleyman at 8:21 AM on July 2, 2005

illegal immigrants get better health care that lower class law-abiding (tax-paying) citizens

so say you are canadian
posted by mr.marx at 9:02 AM on July 2, 2005

I spent a couple weeks on the L.A. County jail ward as a medical student. Among the atrocities I witnessed was a 25 year old HIV+ man who shared my birthday being beaten to death.

He'd gotten into a prison fight and broken his jaw; the open fracture was wired but became infected. About two weeks later, fevered and weak, he was admitted to the LA County jail ward, having had no solid food in nearly a month. The emaciated, deathly ill young man became delirious and, when woken by a sheriff, took a weak swing at the officer. I was there watching; I don't think the blow even landed.

Immediately, six sheriffs beat him senseless with billy clubs; one hustled me out of the room, but I continued watching through the small window in the door. Based on subsequent neurologic exams, I believe they fractured his skull and possibly caused cerebral hemorrhages, but over the next six days no sheriff was available to transport this patient to the CT scanner for diagnosis. He died without regaining consciousness.

I reported the incident to Amnesty International, not knowing what else to do. He had no family, no friends as far as I am aware.
posted by ikkyu2 at 1:37 PM on July 4, 2005