The horse of freedom!
March 14, 2006 8:41 AM Subscribe
Venezuela gets a controversal new flag and seal. In the words of Chavez: "The white horse is now liberated, free, vigorous, trotting toward the left, representing the return of Bolivar and his dream. Long live the fatherland!" Of course, national flag controversies are nothing new, for example, in Iraq, the Confederate States, Macedonia, and Canada. If you want to stay current, there is Flagwire, a site devoted only to flag news, and the extremely cool flag identifier, for those times when you don't know which country you are in.
You are right, that flag identifier is supa-cool.
posted by arcticwoman at 8:50 AM on March 14, 2006
posted by arcticwoman at 8:50 AM on March 14, 2006
No kidding. And how does an 8th star suddenly make the flag "one of totalitarianism, autocracy and communism"???
posted by y6y6y6 at 8:50 AM on March 14, 2006
posted by y6y6y6 at 8:50 AM on March 14, 2006
Venezuelans have two flags - one of totalitarianism, autocracy and communism... and one of democrats
If it weren't for the "communism," I wouldn't know which side he's on....
posted by jefgodesky at 8:56 AM on March 14, 2006
If it weren't for the "communism," I wouldn't know which side he's on....
posted by jefgodesky at 8:56 AM on March 14, 2006
Soon as all you righties stop letting babies go hungry, stealing benefits from hard working americans, burning books, and kicking nice little old ladies down the stairs.
posted by stenseng at 9:27 AM on March 14, 2006
posted by stenseng at 9:27 AM on March 14, 2006
Do you have a flag?
posted by Captaintripps at 9:29 AM on March 14, 2006
posted by Captaintripps at 9:29 AM on March 14, 2006
There's some ballanced reporting...
Yeah, Damn those right wing reporters working atFox News the BBC.
posted by gyc at 9:32 AM on March 14, 2006
Yeah, Damn those right wing reporters working at
posted by gyc at 9:32 AM on March 14, 2006
50th star for Hawaii? COMMUNISTS!
Gawd help us when either Iraq or DC becomes a new state.
(We will never let the Puerto Rican COmmies in! Will WE?)
posted by Elim at 9:35 AM on March 14, 2006
Gawd help us when either Iraq or DC becomes a new state.
(We will never let the Puerto Rican COmmies in! Will WE?)
posted by Elim at 9:35 AM on March 14, 2006
I was wondering as I put this together - would the thread swing towards political debate or vexological discussion? (Though the answer should have been obvious in retrospect). But, just to keep the vexological alive, the best and worst North American flags (Georgia is the big loser), the great Gay Inca flag controversy, and the truly odd flag of Turkmenistan,
posted by blahblahblah at 9:35 AM on March 14, 2006
posted by blahblahblah at 9:35 AM on March 14, 2006
I can't believe Canada's flag was at one time controversial.
posted by mathowie at 9:41 AM on March 14, 2006
posted by mathowie at 9:41 AM on March 14, 2006
i guess i would have to live there to fully appreciate the controversy over a horsie and a star
posted by pyramid termite at 9:53 AM on March 14, 2006
posted by pyramid termite at 9:53 AM on March 14, 2006
There's some ballanced reporting...
Seems more like a simple statement of facts to me. If they were goose-stepping, they were goose-stepping.
posted by empath at 9:56 AM on March 14, 2006
Seems more like a simple statement of facts to me. If they were goose-stepping, they were goose-stepping.
posted by empath at 9:56 AM on March 14, 2006
Soldiers carrying the flag goose-stepped past the podium of Mr Chavez who himself hoisted the new banner.
I doubt any of us are old enough to remember when Germany got a new flag in between world wars, but I see it on tv a lot.
Gotta love the goose stepping soldiers.
posted by a3matrix at 9:59 AM on March 14, 2006
I doubt any of us are old enough to remember when Germany got a new flag in between world wars, but I see it on tv a lot.
Gotta love the goose stepping soldiers.
posted by a3matrix at 9:59 AM on March 14, 2006
Lots of Countries still Goose step, notable most of the former USSR countires in formal parades and such. I have to admit In
long wool coats it looks sharp
posted by Elim at 10:08 AM on March 14, 2006
long wool coats it looks sharp
posted by Elim at 10:08 AM on March 14, 2006
I want my Mtv!
(why does Albania's flag celebrate mutants?)
posted by elr at 10:23 AM on March 14, 2006
(why does Albania's flag celebrate mutants?)
posted by elr at 10:23 AM on March 14, 2006
Can someone point me to an intelligent article about why the USA (or it's leadership at least) seems to hate the nation of Venezuela?
posted by blue_beetle at 10:24 AM on March 14, 2006
posted by blue_beetle at 10:24 AM on March 14, 2006
That flag identifier is awesome, and worthy of an FPP all its own. It even works when you're time travelling.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:25 AM on March 14, 2006
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:25 AM on March 14, 2006
Soldiers carrying the flag goose-stepped past the podium of Mr Chavez who himself hoisted the new banner.
There's some ballanced reporting...
Umm... some countries have soldiers that actually do goosestep. Venezuela is one of them. It's not Godwinization, it's just what actually happened.
posted by unreason at 10:43 AM on March 14, 2006
There's some ballanced reporting...
Umm... some countries have soldiers that actually do goosestep. Venezuela is one of them. It's not Godwinization, it's just what actually happened.
posted by unreason at 10:43 AM on March 14, 2006
The current US administration seems to need a boogeyman now that Saddam is in prison. I think they're setting up Venezula and Chavez for the role.
posted by nyxxxx at 10:51 AM on March 14, 2006
posted by nyxxxx at 10:51 AM on March 14, 2006
When are all you lefties moving there?
We're not. We're gonna invite them here to collectivize your ass. Not everyone's. Just yours. The other 280 million or so of us will be the Central Committee and live in dachas. "The People" will consist of just you.
Sorry for blowing the surprise everybody, but I just had to tell him.
Can someone point me to an intelligent article about why the USA (or it's leadership at least) seems to hate the nation of Venezuela?
I realize that this isn't quite what you asked, but it's very simple: they have natural resources, and they're socialist. You can't understand why a nation whose entire Executive Branch is closely tied to the oil industry would foam at the mouth about that?
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:56 AM on March 14, 2006
We're not. We're gonna invite them here to collectivize your ass. Not everyone's. Just yours. The other 280 million or so of us will be the Central Committee and live in dachas. "The People" will consist of just you.
Sorry for blowing the surprise everybody, but I just had to tell him.
Can someone point me to an intelligent article about why the USA (or it's leadership at least) seems to hate the nation of Venezuela?
I realize that this isn't quite what you asked, but it's very simple: they have natural resources, and they're socialist. You can't understand why a nation whose entire Executive Branch is closely tied to the oil industry would foam at the mouth about that?
posted by George_Spiggott at 10:56 AM on March 14, 2006
I wish I had my own country, where I could rewrite the constitution, raise a private army loyal to me, shut down all opposition media and dissent, spew meaningless rhetoric and change the flag to whatever suits my fancy. Belarus or Khazakstan may have openings for strongmen soon. Maybe I should look into it.
If Chavez is anything like the megalomaniac I would be in his position, it's only a matter of time before the names of months and days are changed to satisfy suitable revolutionary themes and, of course, the leaders of that revolution.
posted by loquax at 10:59 AM on March 14, 2006
If Chavez is anything like the megalomaniac I would be in his position, it's only a matter of time before the names of months and days are changed to satisfy suitable revolutionary themes and, of course, the leaders of that revolution.
posted by loquax at 10:59 AM on March 14, 2006
One other interesting note from the flag identifier, only 17 flags use the color purple. My favorite is the Balearic Islands, it looks like the kind of flag you would see in a bad alternate-US-history science fiction show:
posted by blahblahblah at 11:11 AM on March 14, 2006
posted by blahblahblah at 11:11 AM on March 14, 2006
Soldiers carrying the flag goose-stepped past the podium
Maybe they were doing the can-can.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:11 AM on March 14, 2006
blahblahblah: you cannot possibly understand how happy that purple castle flag has made me.
posted by sonofsamiam at 11:14 AM on March 14, 2006
posted by sonofsamiam at 11:14 AM on March 14, 2006
Can anyone actually explain the historical significance of the eighth star, the province of Guayana, and why these are a source of controversy? Or are we just going to have yet another amateur geopolitics hour over here...
delmoi writes "There's some ballanced reporting..."
I can't fathom this complaint. What's the problem?
posted by mr_roboto at 11:23 AM on March 14, 2006
delmoi writes "There's some ballanced reporting..."
I can't fathom this complaint. What's the problem?
posted by mr_roboto at 11:23 AM on March 14, 2006
Oh, and on the vexological side of things, flags with seals on them are stupid. I shouldn't have to get close to the damn thing to be able to see what it is. It's a flag, goddamnit; it should be instantly identifiable and understandable from a distance.
posted by mr_roboto at 11:30 AM on March 14, 2006
posted by mr_roboto at 11:30 AM on March 14, 2006
loquax : "I wish I had my own country, where I could rewrite the constitution, raise a private army loyal to me, shut down all opposition media and dissent, spew meaningless rhetoric and change the flag to whatever suits my fancy. Belarus or Khazakstan may have openings for strongmen soon. Maybe I should look into it. "
Well, then we know you want to be a dictator - poor Chavez had to win Executive and Legislative elections, all closely observed by independent international organization who declared them clean. Then he had to change the Constitution through the Legislative procedure, as mandated by the same Constitution. Fortunately he didn't had to go to the trouble of raising an expensive private army - as Venezuela is a democratic country, the regular Army owns loyalty to their Commander in Chief, the elected President (that was double nice, since they were mostly there for him when the US financed that failed coup d'etat). If you're going to shut down the opposition media, you'd better avoid the Venezuelan way too, as all media is in private hands (except for the government TV and radio stations Chavez created when he realized all private media, without exception, was owned by the same people who made Venezuela the Paradise we all know it was before Chavez). As for meaningless rhetoric, Chavez is at most a competent amateur - you must hear what comes out of the White House this days. As for changing the flag, you are way better than Chavez as a dictator, as he had to again goes to Congress (and I quote TFA's first line "Parliament last week approved changes to the 200-year-old design, including the addition of an eighth star to honour the province of Guayana."). Yeah, dictatorship is much more amusing than democracy, at least for the dictator.
posted by nkyad at 11:34 AM on March 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
Well, then we know you want to be a dictator - poor Chavez had to win Executive and Legislative elections, all closely observed by independent international organization who declared them clean. Then he had to change the Constitution through the Legislative procedure, as mandated by the same Constitution. Fortunately he didn't had to go to the trouble of raising an expensive private army - as Venezuela is a democratic country, the regular Army owns loyalty to their Commander in Chief, the elected President (that was double nice, since they were mostly there for him when the US financed that failed coup d'etat). If you're going to shut down the opposition media, you'd better avoid the Venezuelan way too, as all media is in private hands (except for the government TV and radio stations Chavez created when he realized all private media, without exception, was owned by the same people who made Venezuela the Paradise we all know it was before Chavez). As for meaningless rhetoric, Chavez is at most a competent amateur - you must hear what comes out of the White House this days. As for changing the flag, you are way better than Chavez as a dictator, as he had to again goes to Congress (and I quote TFA's first line "Parliament last week approved changes to the 200-year-old design, including the addition of an eighth star to honour the province of Guayana."). Yeah, dictatorship is much more amusing than democracy, at least for the dictator.
posted by nkyad at 11:34 AM on March 14, 2006 [1 favorite]
Chavez adds a star to the flag and a thousand people are in the streets crying totalitarianism. Makes our ho-hum response to torture, illegal wire-tapping, unlawful detainment, and general Bush shenanigans seem really quite pathetic.
posted by bcveen at 11:36 AM on March 14, 2006
posted by bcveen at 11:36 AM on March 14, 2006
poor Chavez had to win Executive and Legislative elections
Yes, after his attempts at a coup failed.
Fortunately he didn't had to go to the trouble of raising an expensive private army - as Venezuela is a democratic country, the regular Army owns loyalty to their Commander in Chief
Actually, he has an additional private army that is answerable only to him. They've been caught beating up the opposition at political rallies. Here's some information from Amnesty International.
I'm not saying that Chavez is the devil or anything, but it's a bit simplistic to act like there's nothing bad or undemocratic about his rule.
posted by unreason at 11:42 AM on March 14, 2006
Yes, after his attempts at a coup failed.
Fortunately he didn't had to go to the trouble of raising an expensive private army - as Venezuela is a democratic country, the regular Army owns loyalty to their Commander in Chief
Actually, he has an additional private army that is answerable only to him. They've been caught beating up the opposition at political rallies. Here's some information from Amnesty International.
I'm not saying that Chavez is the devil or anything, but it's a bit simplistic to act like there's nothing bad or undemocratic about his rule.
posted by unreason at 11:42 AM on March 14, 2006
mr_roboto writes "Can anyone actually explain the historical significance of the eighth star, the province of Guayana, and why these are a source of controversy? "
In an attempt to answer my own question, does this have to do with the ongoing border disputes between Venezuela and Guyana (Venezuela claims something like 70% of its neighbor's territory)? Is the addition of the star some kind of chauvinistic assertion of Venezuelan territorial claims?
South America experts, please help me!
posted by mr_roboto at 11:47 AM on March 14, 2006
In an attempt to answer my own question, does this have to do with the ongoing border disputes between Venezuela and Guyana (Venezuela claims something like 70% of its neighbor's territory)? Is the addition of the star some kind of chauvinistic assertion of Venezuelan territorial claims?
South America experts, please help me!
posted by mr_roboto at 11:47 AM on March 14, 2006
nkyad: Wrong, wrong wrong, wrong. How dare you make apologies for Chavez running roughshod over Venezuelan democracy and law? What Chavez has done (arming a militia outside of the military, loyal to him, shutting down private media, bringing the election commission under his control from a previously independent position, increasing the number of supreme court justices and stacking it with personal loyalists, abolishing the senate, passed enabling laws, gave himself the power to rule by decree, reduced the majority needed in the legislature to pass law) is unacceptable, and should be condemned regardless of what Bush does or doesn't do, or how one feels about socialism. If Chavez's platform is so progressive, and so egalitarian, perhaps it should be able to stand on its own, without the two-bit totalitarianism and the cheap propaganda stunts. Changing the flag in this manner is a slap in the face of the opposition, and is a further attempt to equate Venezuela with Chavez. Before long, there will be no separating the two, like North Korea, Cuba, Iraq, the Soviet Union, Uganda, Germany and China before it.
posted by loquax at 11:47 AM on March 14, 2006
posted by loquax at 11:47 AM on March 14, 2006
Actually I seem to remember Chavez winning two free elections, after he tried a Coup in 1992 after the previous government policies led to the riots of 89, WOn the popular vote in 1998 partly because of his actions in the Coup bought him public favor of the poor, Won again 2000 and in 2004 won a recall election and was declared the winner by about 58 percent said 'no' to a recall, while 42 percent said 'yes,' AFTER a Failed US Led Coup in 2002
AND all in a Multi (more than two) party system, The six main pro-Chavez parties, MVR, Podemos, PCV, PPT, MEP, and UPV, won 88.8% of the vote.
All in All a popular leader in his country and the region, and increasingly in the eyes of the rest f the world.
posted by Elim at 12:27 PM on March 14, 2006
AND all in a Multi (more than two) party system, The six main pro-Chavez parties, MVR, Podemos, PCV, PPT, MEP, and UPV, won 88.8% of the vote.
All in All a popular leader in his country and the region, and increasingly in the eyes of the rest f the world.
posted by Elim at 12:27 PM on March 14, 2006
Popular private Media is still free and the most popular, Chavez only started a state run media as well. or does freedom of the press only go one way? Although both side commandeered it during the 2002 coup attempt,
Read the wikipedia for a quick overview before the inevitable embarrassing fact check gets in the way. then at least a general idea of what you arguing about will be in play Loq---
posted by Elim at 12:33 PM on March 14, 2006
Read the wikipedia for a quick overview before the inevitable embarrassing fact check gets in the way. then at least a general idea of what you arguing about will be in play Loq---
posted by Elim at 12:33 PM on March 14, 2006
Human Rights Watch: "Since winning a national referendum on his presidency in 2004, Hugo Chávez and his majority coalition in Congress have taken steps to undermine the independence of the country’s judiciary by packing the Supreme Court with their allies. They have also enacted legislation that seriously threatens press freedoms and freedom of expression. Several high profile members of civil society have faced prosecution on highly dubious charges, and human rights defenders have been repeatedly accused by government officials of conspiring against the nation. Police violence, torture, and abusive prison conditions are also among the country’s most serious human rights problems."
... can we get back to flags now?
posted by blahblahblah at 12:39 PM on March 14, 2006
... can we get back to flags now?
posted by blahblahblah at 12:39 PM on March 14, 2006
Read on my brothers. (login required)
As if that weren’t enough, a new media law allows the state to supervise media content, and a revised criminal code permits the state to imprison any citizen for showing “disrespect” toward government officials. By compiling and posting on the Internet lists of voters and their political tendencies—including whether they signed a petition for a recall referendum in 2004—Venezuela has achieved reverse accountability. The state is watching and punishing citizens for political actions it disapproves of rather than the other way around. If democracy requires checks on the power of incumbents, Venezuela doesn’t come close.
How embarassing for me. You're right, Chavez is just a popular guy, that's why he gets everything he wants! Everyone just loves him so darn much! Whatever flag he raises to proclaim his glory by turning horsies left instead of right is just fine by me.
posted by loquax at 12:40 PM on March 14, 2006
As if that weren’t enough, a new media law allows the state to supervise media content, and a revised criminal code permits the state to imprison any citizen for showing “disrespect” toward government officials. By compiling and posting on the Internet lists of voters and their political tendencies—including whether they signed a petition for a recall referendum in 2004—Venezuela has achieved reverse accountability. The state is watching and punishing citizens for political actions it disapproves of rather than the other way around. If democracy requires checks on the power of incumbents, Venezuela doesn’t come close.
How embarassing for me. You're right, Chavez is just a popular guy, that's why he gets everything he wants! Everyone just loves him so darn much! Whatever flag he raises to proclaim his glory by turning horsies left instead of right is just fine by me.
posted by loquax at 12:40 PM on March 14, 2006
WOW Just Like BUSH? hehheh, I change my mind HE MUST GO!
posted by Elim at 12:41 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by Elim at 12:41 PM on March 14, 2006
What does Bush have to do with Chavez ruling Venezuela like it was his beach house? Oh yeah, nothing. Or is your point that just because George Bush does things you don't approve of, license is granted to every despot in the world to do as they please with the livelihoods of their people?
It's funny how some people react once their naive assumptions are proven wrong.
posted by loquax at 12:49 PM on March 14, 2006
It's funny how some people react once their naive assumptions are proven wrong.
posted by loquax at 12:49 PM on March 14, 2006
Elim writes "WOW Just Like BUSH? hehheh, I change my mind HE MUST GO!"
This is really gonna win you the argument....
posted by mr_roboto at 12:50 PM on March 14, 2006
This is really gonna win you the argument....
posted by mr_roboto at 12:50 PM on March 14, 2006
To Quote My Old Congressmen "...Chavez is a revolutionary, and you can agree with him or not with how far he goes with his rhetoric, but he has placed the resources from his country's oil sales into health care and literary programs for the poorest of the poor. I have to admire that. I know of no credible sources claiming that he is enriching himself at his peoples' expense. That has been the clear habit of Latin American leaders in the last several decades, but Chavez seems clean. He is an avowed leftist and friend of Fidel, but a corrupt militarist he's not"
posted by Elim at 1:00 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by Elim at 1:00 PM on March 14, 2006
Regardless of your old Congressman's personal feelings, people not allied with Bush, such as Amnesty International, have documented Chavez's people beating and imprisoning his political opponents. That is a fact. It does not matter whether you like Chavez, it does not matter if you like Bush. The fact remains that people are getting the crap beaten out of them by Chavez' folks for demonstrating against him.
posted by unreason at 1:04 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by unreason at 1:04 PM on March 14, 2006
Mr Roboto, ture but the parallel was compelling. The fact is the People of Bolivia as a whole seem happier with him than we do, and if we are to be fair about it, that IS what matters.
They want him, they got him democratically and with a Well define majority in an internationally monitored election.
We are pissed because he is not like us and does things differently, talks to people we don't like and Has oil he won't share with the rich guys.
and where I CAN find an action he is accused of and CAN find that we are PROUDLY trying the same crap in the U.S.
"Hugo Chávez and his majority coalition in Congress have taken steps to undermine the independence of the country’s judiciary by packing the Supreme Court with their allies. They have also enacted legislation that seriously threatens press freedoms and freedom of expression" we are all the sudden ashamed to face this, well fuck me very much for pointing out the obvious... color me not amazed but disappointed.
posted by Elim at 1:09 PM on March 14, 2006
They want him, they got him democratically and with a Well define majority in an internationally monitored election.
We are pissed because he is not like us and does things differently, talks to people we don't like and Has oil he won't share with the rich guys.
and where I CAN find an action he is accused of and CAN find that we are PROUDLY trying the same crap in the U.S.
"Hugo Chávez and his majority coalition in Congress have taken steps to undermine the independence of the country’s judiciary by packing the Supreme Court with their allies. They have also enacted legislation that seriously threatens press freedoms and freedom of expression" we are all the sudden ashamed to face this, well fuck me very much for pointing out the obvious... color me not amazed but disappointed.
posted by Elim at 1:09 PM on March 14, 2006
Well, then, that settles it I guess! It's a great day when reason is trumped by anonymous personal quotations. How does your congressman feel about Chavez's enabling act? His purchase of 100,000 machine guns for his private militia? His usurping of the electoral commission? His prosecution of citizens that disparage the government? I guess he thinks it's just fine as long as he doesn't open a swiss bank account?
On preview: If I'm not American, can I condemn Chavez without having the actions of the US government thrown in my face as some sort of counter-argument?
posted by loquax at 1:11 PM on March 14, 2006
On preview: If I'm not American, can I condemn Chavez without having the actions of the US government thrown in my face as some sort of counter-argument?
posted by loquax at 1:11 PM on March 14, 2006
Elim writes "The fact is the People of Bolivia as a whole seem happier with him than we do, and if we are to be fair about it, that IS what matters."
Bolivia?
posted by mr_roboto at 1:13 PM on March 14, 2006
Bolivia?
posted by mr_roboto at 1:13 PM on March 14, 2006
Unreason, That is atleast a good critique and a fair one. Now what can we do to resolve that here?
Alot of what I see on the Human Rights watch Page has to do with political prisoners involved in the 2002 Coup attempt. and the presidential disrespect law Both of which are concerning to the Left as well. Adding a Star to the Flag however means war!
posted by Elim at 1:21 PM on March 14, 2006
Alot of what I see on the Human Rights watch Page has to do with political prisoners involved in the 2002 Coup attempt. and the presidential disrespect law Both of which are concerning to the Left as well. Adding a Star to the Flag however means war!
posted by Elim at 1:21 PM on March 14, 2006
The rest on the 'other" Hugo Chavez post!. The Group is right I have used this thread incorrectly to soapbox.
posted by Elim at 1:22 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by Elim at 1:22 PM on March 14, 2006
His purchase of 100,000 machine guns for his private militia?
Well, if I had to worry about US-backed coups and televangelist-assassins coming after me, I would be upgrading my private militia, too.
posted by solipse at 1:26 PM on March 14, 2006
Well, if I had to worry about US-backed coups and televangelist-assassins coming after me, I would be upgrading my private militia, too.
posted by solipse at 1:26 PM on March 14, 2006
Kid, the next time I say, "Let's go someplace like Bolivia," let's go someplace like Bolivia.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:41 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by kirkaracha at 1:41 PM on March 14, 2006
... televangelist-assassins ...
Do they harangue you to death?
posted by me & my monkey at 1:42 PM on March 14, 2006
Do they harangue you to death?
posted by me & my monkey at 1:42 PM on March 14, 2006
« Older Pancakes: Is there anything they can't do? | Saddam Hussein Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
There's some ballanced reporting...
posted by delmoi at 8:43 AM on March 14, 2006