The United States does not torture -- GWB, 11/05
March 14, 2006 12:59 PM Subscribe
Abu Ghraib, continued. A new cache of disturbing images and videos from the original interrogations, with commentary from Salon. [Definitely NSFW, or for Earth, for that matter.]
Do we really need to not have seen this earlier?
posted by Smedleyman at 1:16 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by Smedleyman at 1:16 PM on March 14, 2006
I think we just bought our next terrorist attack. Paid in full.
posted by Balisong at 1:17 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by Balisong at 1:17 PM on March 14, 2006
.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 1:27 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by Optimus Chyme at 1:27 PM on March 14, 2006
*Thumbs Up!*
posted by MaxVonCretin at 1:35 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by MaxVonCretin at 1:35 PM on March 14, 2006
Oh boy.
posted by greasy_skillet at 1:35 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by greasy_skillet at 1:35 PM on March 14, 2006
Some former marine had a bumper sticker on his van that said
"When you have 'em by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow".
He was paralized from the waist down, so I'm not exactly sure what he meant by "having them by the balls".
posted by delmoi at 1:36 PM on March 14, 2006
"When you have 'em by the balls, their hearts and minds will follow".
He was paralized from the waist down, so I'm not exactly sure what he meant by "having them by the balls".
posted by delmoi at 1:36 PM on March 14, 2006
The videos don't seem to include everything.
Will this affect the ACLU's FOIA lawsuit against the Department of Defense? This press release from a month ago says the government's appeal is in the Second Circuit Court of Appeals.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:39 PM on March 14, 2006
Will this affect the ACLU's FOIA lawsuit against the Department of Defense? This press release from a month ago says the government's appeal is in the Second Circuit Court of Appeals.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:39 PM on March 14, 2006
Hmmm... And then we wonder why we are the target of contemptuous actions?
posted by lrkuperman at 1:55 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by lrkuperman at 1:55 PM on March 14, 2006
Why did I read that as the Second City Court of Appeals?
posted by mischief at 2:03 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by mischief at 2:03 PM on March 14, 2006
C'mon, we all know that Abu Ghraib was just a few bad apples engaing in fraternity hijinks.
Freedom is on teh March!
posted by oncogenesis at 2:03 PM on March 14, 2006
Freedom is on teh March!
posted by oncogenesis at 2:03 PM on March 14, 2006
I've been desensitized by the previous Abu Gharaib photos - but the banana shot just pushed me over the edge.
posted by metaxa at 2:08 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by metaxa at 2:08 PM on March 14, 2006
bush is the ultimate patsy. he should resign over this.
posted by phaedon at 3:00 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by phaedon at 3:00 PM on March 14, 2006
I am sick of looking at that thick fucking goon Grainer's face. I hope he is rotting in captivity right now.
posted by fire&wings at 3:26 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by fire&wings at 3:26 PM on March 14, 2006
If you're sick of that look on Grainer's face, it's Rumsfeld you should think dark thoughts about. He's the top of that particular chain, this happened on his OK, make no mistake about it.
posted by dbiedny at 3:44 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by dbiedny at 3:44 PM on March 14, 2006
I doubt Grainer is that unpopular in military prison, f&w -- he was "lettin' off a little steam" and all, see? he was protecting America from "the worst of the worst". he's a victim of the liberal media and the activist judges.
anyway, I was just thinking about that awesome Moussaoui fiasco, how these guys cannot even get a slam-dunk of a conviction in court -- it's clear that they just don't know how to do things, they're too incompetent. they cannot prevent attacks (see the summer-2001 ignored memos), they cannot arrest real terrorists (Abu Ghraib is full of car thieves and looters, Gitmo's inmates have been captured/kidnapped basically at random by Afghan warlords and who knows what they really did), they cannot keep them in custody like a civilized nation is supposed to do, they cannot even charge them and put them on trial (see Padilla, Moussaoui)
they barely got a conviction for Lindh, for Chrissakes. they keep fucking things up.
at this point, I'm not surprised by the thuggishness, I'm just appalled by the incompetence
posted by matteo at 3:44 PM on March 14, 2006
anyway, I was just thinking about that awesome Moussaoui fiasco, how these guys cannot even get a slam-dunk of a conviction in court -- it's clear that they just don't know how to do things, they're too incompetent. they cannot prevent attacks (see the summer-2001 ignored memos), they cannot arrest real terrorists (Abu Ghraib is full of car thieves and looters, Gitmo's inmates have been captured/kidnapped basically at random by Afghan warlords and who knows what they really did), they cannot keep them in custody like a civilized nation is supposed to do, they cannot even charge them and put them on trial (see Padilla, Moussaoui)
they barely got a conviction for Lindh, for Chrissakes. they keep fucking things up.
at this point, I'm not surprised by the thuggishness, I'm just appalled by the incompetence
posted by matteo at 3:44 PM on March 14, 2006
What are you talking about, matteo. These guys are tough, tough as nails. Just look at Rumsfeld and Cheney -- real men's men who know what they want and don't waffle. It's too bad they never went over to 'Nam -- we would have won that war. Everyone knows it's the Democrats that are incompetent.
posted by digaman at 3:47 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by digaman at 3:47 PM on March 14, 2006
What purpose other than titillation is served by those first two videos? Yuck.
posted by veronica sawyer at 3:50 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by veronica sawyer at 3:50 PM on March 14, 2006
Can we all agree that we might not be the good guys in this particular war NOW?
posted by Elim at 4:10 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by Elim at 4:10 PM on March 14, 2006
These guys are tough, tough as nails. Just look at Rumsfeld and Cheney -- real men's men who know what they want and don't waffle. It's too bad they never went over to 'Nam.
Oh, for God's sake cut it out. You're on an Agenda-Filter tear as it is, which gets a pass because most folks here (including me) agree with you, but you're seriously over-moderating your posts and comments like the one I quoted just plain suck and add nothing other that to show how much more you care than the rest of us.
And, no, I'm not going to take it to MetaTalk. I made my position on such things clear here. You're taking advantage of Metatalk Outrage Fatigue to get your political wank on. And it sucks.
posted by Cyrano at 4:20 PM on March 14, 2006
Oh, for God's sake cut it out. You're on an Agenda-Filter tear as it is, which gets a pass because most folks here (including me) agree with you, but you're seriously over-moderating your posts and comments like the one I quoted just plain suck and add nothing other that to show how much more you care than the rest of us.
And, no, I'm not going to take it to MetaTalk. I made my position on such things clear here. You're taking advantage of Metatalk Outrage Fatigue to get your political wank on. And it sucks.
posted by Cyrano at 4:20 PM on March 14, 2006
“I'm not surprised by the thuggishness, I'm just appalled by the incompetence” - posted by matteo
“I don't mind a parasite. I object to a cut-rate one.”
posted by Smedleyman at 5:01 PM on March 14, 2006
“I don't mind a parasite. I object to a cut-rate one.”
posted by Smedleyman at 5:01 PM on March 14, 2006
add nothing other that to show how much more you care than the rest of us.
That's not in my agenda in the least, but thanks for the feedback. I will grant that I've been feeling politically outraged lately, but I had no idea that I was creating some kind of "Metatalk Outrage Fatigue" (whatever that is, but I can imagine). Frankly, the sin of "over-moderating posts" never occurred to me. But I hear ya.
posted by digaman at 5:14 PM on March 14, 2006
That's not in my agenda in the least, but thanks for the feedback. I will grant that I've been feeling politically outraged lately, but I had no idea that I was creating some kind of "Metatalk Outrage Fatigue" (whatever that is, but I can imagine). Frankly, the sin of "over-moderating posts" never occurred to me. But I hear ya.
posted by digaman at 5:14 PM on March 14, 2006
You want to know something really freaking scary? The people who did all of this; ordered it, watched it, performed it, recorded it, all of it...will be mingling with the rest of the American population.
Walking down the streets...our multicultural, many hued, streets...after being trained to do this. Desensitized. Made to think it's acceptable, it's "all fair in love and war", it's for "God and Country".
In a country where a significant number of our Vietnam vets are homeless, lost and undertreated, we're not going to give these soldiers the therapy they need to come back to being rational, ethical humans.
We're just going to set them out on the street corners like we did with every generation of soldier from Vietnam to present, and hope one of them doesn't go all Timothy McVeigh.
The fear will come back to our own shores, and it may be our own people bringing it.
posted by dejah420 at 5:29 PM on March 14, 2006
Walking down the streets...our multicultural, many hued, streets...after being trained to do this. Desensitized. Made to think it's acceptable, it's "all fair in love and war", it's for "God and Country".
In a country where a significant number of our Vietnam vets are homeless, lost and undertreated, we're not going to give these soldiers the therapy they need to come back to being rational, ethical humans.
We're just going to set them out on the street corners like we did with every generation of soldier from Vietnam to present, and hope one of them doesn't go all Timothy McVeigh.
The fear will come back to our own shores, and it may be our own people bringing it.
posted by dejah420 at 5:29 PM on March 14, 2006
I think we just bought our next terrorist attack.
Actually, these are from 2003.
posted by Aknaton at 6:05 PM on March 14, 2006
Actually, these are from 2003.
posted by Aknaton at 6:05 PM on March 14, 2006
While there might be outrage fatigue here at Metafilter, in some quarters people still think we are punishing those in Iraq who attacked us on 911. Others buy the propaganda lies about a few bad steamy apples.
Man, those heartbreaking images bring Paul Simon’s thoughts from “American Tune” to mind. In that song Simon spoke of our age’s most uncertain hours, of shattered dreams, weary bones and how we’ve lived so well so long in America. “Still,” he asks considering our nation’s tack many year back, “when I think about this road we’re traveling on, can’t help but I wonder what’s gone wrong?”
How much outrage will be enough?
posted by BillyElmore at 6:12 PM on March 14, 2006
Man, those heartbreaking images bring Paul Simon’s thoughts from “American Tune” to mind. In that song Simon spoke of our age’s most uncertain hours, of shattered dreams, weary bones and how we’ve lived so well so long in America. “Still,” he asks considering our nation’s tack many year back, “when I think about this road we’re traveling on, can’t help but I wonder what’s gone wrong?”
How much outrage will be enough?
posted by BillyElmore at 6:12 PM on March 14, 2006
That's not in my agenda in the least, but thanks for the feedback. I will grant that I've been feeling politically outraged lately, but I had no idea that I was creating some kind of "Metatalk Outrage Fatigue" (whatever that is, but I can imagine). Frankly, the sin of "over-moderating posts" never occurred to me. But I hear ya.
Aaargh! I'm headed to the Angry Dome for a while because I screwed with my original response to your comment and lost it somehow in a MS-IS refresh. But, anyhoo...
Like I said, I agree with you on pretty much everything. I'm totally there with the outrage.
You post good and important stuff (although I often feel a "preaching to the choir" vibe with your posts and some other's.) Most of them would stand of their own two feet if you'd let them.
And, as I've said more than a few times before: thank you for the reasonable response. I know full-well that I can get overly-hyperbolic at times.
posted by Cyrano at 6:44 PM on March 14, 2006
Aaargh! I'm headed to the Angry Dome for a while because I screwed with my original response to your comment and lost it somehow in a MS-IS refresh. But, anyhoo...
Like I said, I agree with you on pretty much everything. I'm totally there with the outrage.
You post good and important stuff (although I often feel a "preaching to the choir" vibe with your posts and some other's.) Most of them would stand of their own two feet if you'd let them.
And, as I've said more than a few times before: thank you for the reasonable response. I know full-well that I can get overly-hyperbolic at times.
posted by Cyrano at 6:44 PM on March 14, 2006
I'm outraged. If I feel this horrified, just think how horrified the Iraquis feel.
posted by leftcoastbob at 6:47 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by leftcoastbob at 6:47 PM on March 14, 2006
I still can't believe there are people who try and justify this crap. How did they get into positions of power again?
posted by Balisong at 6:56 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by Balisong at 6:56 PM on March 14, 2006
Can we all agree that we might not be the good guys in this particular war NOW?
posted by Elim at 7:10 PM EST on March 14
You never have good guys in wars. Everyone will be very very evil. Never fool yourself that this is not the case because of how much worse some other side seems.
People, no worse than yourself, will die in great numbers and it will not be in the quest for some greater good. They will die in bloody and gruesome ways and, at best, it will be so that you have a somewhat better chance of not being killed by them.
You can try to control when and if a war starts but after that you are just along for the ride. You side with the whomever it seems to you, at the time, to be the lesser of all available evils. If you are very lucky it will be over quickly and the worst of them let go when it is.
posted by prak at 7:44 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by Elim at 7:10 PM EST on March 14
You never have good guys in wars. Everyone will be very very evil. Never fool yourself that this is not the case because of how much worse some other side seems.
People, no worse than yourself, will die in great numbers and it will not be in the quest for some greater good. They will die in bloody and gruesome ways and, at best, it will be so that you have a somewhat better chance of not being killed by them.
You can try to control when and if a war starts but after that you are just along for the ride. You side with the whomever it seems to you, at the time, to be the lesser of all available evils. If you are very lucky it will be over quickly and the worst of them let go when it is.
posted by prak at 7:44 PM on March 14, 2006
I am not against killing to defend yourself or others. I am can even be convinced that there are cases when people whom do not pose a direct threat must be killed to improve some longer term chances of survival.
I do not fool myself into thinking I am a good person.
posted by prak at 7:47 PM on March 14, 2006
I do not fool myself into thinking I am a good person.
posted by prak at 7:47 PM on March 14, 2006
You know, Prak, neither am I, personally.
But I don't want to have that as a national policy.
This country needs to be the shining beacon of freedom, or we can't claim that we are better than any other jackass country that tortures people.
posted by Balisong at 8:09 PM on March 14, 2006
But I don't want to have that as a national policy.
This country needs to be the shining beacon of freedom, or we can't claim that we are better than any other jackass country that tortures people.
posted by Balisong at 8:09 PM on March 14, 2006
"We can't claim that we are better than any other jackass country that tortures people."
We aren't. Thanks Bushies for trashing this country.
posted by tgyg at 8:50 PM on March 14, 2006
We aren't. Thanks Bushies for trashing this country.
posted by tgyg at 8:50 PM on March 14, 2006
they barely got a conviction for Lindh, for Chrissakes
Actually, they didn't; it was a plea bargain.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:29 PM on March 14, 2006
well PP, dios, come out of your hidey-holes and defend this from your Saddam-Bush contrivance. I dare you. I double dog dare you. How is this supposed to make the american people look good? How is this supposed to make americans the defenders of freedom and human rights and the advancement of civilization? How? The best you could do at this point is to resign from Me-Fi and any deluded, contrived and uninformed opionion you might have about anything regarding the U.S. because face it: You are the Maoists. You are the Stalinists. You are the god-damned commie hoard you stupidly protest against. Ask not for whom the bell tolls. The bell tolls for thee.
posted by mk1gti at 9:49 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by mk1gti at 9:49 PM on March 14, 2006
Looking out the window I couldn't help but notice that it's a full moon tonight, or at least close enough. . .
posted by mk1gti at 9:51 PM on March 14, 2006
posted by mk1gti at 9:51 PM on March 14, 2006
Oh, shut up, mk1gti. Seriously. Don't piss in the well. Direct your justified fury at targets that actually matter, like your elected representatives, or the lickspittle castrati journalists and media companies, not at other citizens whose politics you disagree with.
America makes me cry.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:26 PM on March 14, 2006
America makes me cry.
posted by stavrosthewonderchicken at 11:26 PM on March 14, 2006
But I don't want to have that as a national policy.
This country needs to be the shining beacon of freedom, or we can't claim that we are better than any other jackass country that tortures people.
posted by Balisong at 11:09 PM EST on March 14
Oh, sure. Nor I. I suspect, however, the boat for that sailed when we accepted the idea of a standing military, it just took a little while to land. When you have things around they tend to get used.
The second post was because the first made it sound like I could actually manage to be a pacifist. Which would be unfair to those few people that can actually manage it. I am just a coward.
We are not a shining beacon of freedom; perhaps we are a little better than average but that is hardly saying much. I think it is time to come to terms with our new role as another jackass country that tortures people. Even if everything went as you or I might wish the best we would be is another jackass country that tortured people.
I do not like the idea that so many people seem to have that a war can be just. Or militaries good. War is always evil and militaries, on every side, do evil things. One can only hope that the result provides some good but that does nothing to ameliorate the unspeakable evil that is done to get us there. This is what you have to accept when you accept war. I think it is important to not allow people to so easily deceive themselves.
posted by prak at 1:35 AM on March 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
This country needs to be the shining beacon of freedom, or we can't claim that we are better than any other jackass country that tortures people.
posted by Balisong at 11:09 PM EST on March 14
Oh, sure. Nor I. I suspect, however, the boat for that sailed when we accepted the idea of a standing military, it just took a little while to land. When you have things around they tend to get used.
The second post was because the first made it sound like I could actually manage to be a pacifist. Which would be unfair to those few people that can actually manage it. I am just a coward.
We are not a shining beacon of freedom; perhaps we are a little better than average but that is hardly saying much. I think it is time to come to terms with our new role as another jackass country that tortures people. Even if everything went as you or I might wish the best we would be is another jackass country that tortured people.
I do not like the idea that so many people seem to have that a war can be just. Or militaries good. War is always evil and militaries, on every side, do evil things. One can only hope that the result provides some good but that does nothing to ameliorate the unspeakable evil that is done to get us there. This is what you have to accept when you accept war. I think it is important to not allow people to so easily deceive themselves.
posted by prak at 1:35 AM on March 15, 2006 [1 favorite]
Well, I AM a good person. Over the course of my life, my good acts have far outnumbered my bad acts. A hundred to one, at least.
prak: I do not fool myself into thinking I am a good person.
But do you fool yourself into not even trying?
posted by ryanrs at 5:08 AM on March 15, 2006
prak: I do not fool myself into thinking I am a good person.
But do you fool yourself into not even trying?
posted by ryanrs at 5:08 AM on March 15, 2006
This is one of the major reasons I have moved out of the United States of America.
posted by greasepig at 6:16 AM on March 15, 2006
posted by greasepig at 6:16 AM on March 15, 2006
They're not even humans fer' chrissake!
We're better than them and this proves it.
Just ask any 101st fightin' keyboarder!
Fighting for freedom and democracy and God and Mom and apple pie and goodness can never be wrong no matter what you do to those ragheaded hajis!
They're all terraists anyways and wanna kill us. FEAR!!!!
So just follow O'Reilly's good advice and SHUT UP you bunch of America hating liberal pussies!
Sorry, that was my evil twin. They're super cool these days you know (evil twins) and everyone needs one to blame things on.
Get away from my keyboard you!!
posted by nofundy at 6:19 AM on March 15, 2006
Dammit, he did it again. Sorry folks.
posted by nofundy at 6:35 AM on March 15, 2006
greasepig: This is one of the major reasons I have moved out of the United States of America.
But this problem is harder to fix from abroad. Expats can't vote for the executive or legislature, can they?
posted by ryanrs at 10:37 AM on March 15, 2006
But this problem is harder to fix from abroad. Expats can't vote for the executive or legislature, can they?
posted by ryanrs at 10:37 AM on March 15, 2006
nofundy: "Sorry, that was my evil twin. They're super cool these days you know (evil twins) and everyone needs one to blame things on."
Not even joking. Really.
posted by rafter at 11:37 AM on March 15, 2006
Not even joking. Really.
posted by rafter at 11:37 AM on March 15, 2006
But this problem is harder to fix from abroad. Expats can't vote for the executive or legislature, can they?
posted by ryanrs at 10:37 AM PST on March 15 [!]
What the hell are you talking about? All we need is an absentee ballot, a stamp and a post office!
posted by sic at 12:29 PM on March 15, 2006
posted by ryanrs at 10:37 AM PST on March 15 [!]
What the hell are you talking about? All we need is an absentee ballot, a stamp and a post office!
posted by sic at 12:29 PM on March 15, 2006
But do you fool yourself into not even trying?
posted by ryanrs at 8:08 AM EST on March 15
Of course not, but I also realize that given the right situation it is unlikely I would remain good. People whom we would consider basically good, under the right conditions, routinely fail to remain so; this has been shown time and time again.
My "goodness" is more a product of my environment than it is a reflection of my nature. Living in the first world and being upper middle class affords you few opportunities to do many bad acts.
I think the best way to keep from being evil when conditions no longer favor me is to understand how easy it is to justify evil acts. They would be easy to justify because I am not, at heart, a good person.
Nor do I think it is likely you are. Your suggestion that not being evil is just a matter of making sure your ratio of good to bad acts favors good by some reasonably large number is concerning.
posted by prak at 1:39 PM on March 15, 2006
posted by ryanrs at 8:08 AM EST on March 15
Of course not, but I also realize that given the right situation it is unlikely I would remain good. People whom we would consider basically good, under the right conditions, routinely fail to remain so; this has been shown time and time again.
My "goodness" is more a product of my environment than it is a reflection of my nature. Living in the first world and being upper middle class affords you few opportunities to do many bad acts.
I think the best way to keep from being evil when conditions no longer favor me is to understand how easy it is to justify evil acts. They would be easy to justify because I am not, at heart, a good person.
Nor do I think it is likely you are. Your suggestion that not being evil is just a matter of making sure your ratio of good to bad acts favors good by some reasonably large number is concerning.
posted by prak at 1:39 PM on March 15, 2006
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posted by mischief at 1:03 PM on March 14, 2006