Arrest Made In JonBenét Ramsey Case
August 16, 2006 2:07 PM Subscribe
Newsfilter: Arrest Made In JonBenét Ramsey Case:
With the arrest today of a suspect in the 1996 murder case of JonBenét Ramsey (previously discussed), we should expect the resurrection of discussions and reporting related to early suspicions of the involvement of a family member (father: John; mother: Patsy; brother: Burke), as well as to childhood beauty pageants.
With the arrest today of a suspect in the 1996 murder case of JonBenét Ramsey (previously discussed), we should expect the resurrection of discussions and reporting related to early suspicions of the involvement of a family member (father: John; mother: Patsy; brother: Burke), as well as to childhood beauty pageants.
Wow! This on top of Castro getting sick! This has truly been an August to remember.
Also, how creepy is the Crime Library? I thought it was pretty creepy, too, until ericb introduced me to Crime Magazine! Now there's a site with links that I'm genuinely afraid to follow!
posted by mr_roboto at 2:14 PM on August 16, 2006
Also, how creepy is the Crime Library? I thought it was pretty creepy, too, until ericb introduced me to Crime Magazine! Now there's a site with links that I'm genuinely afraid to follow!
posted by mr_roboto at 2:14 PM on August 16, 2006
Proves how stupid local cops really can be. If Jon Benet's parents weren't super-rich and able to hire good lawyers (and their own forensic experts) the local pigs would have got them tried and convicted and in prison for life.
posted by delmoi at 2:18 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by delmoi at 2:18 PM on August 16, 2006
Is this a portent? Is the universe is due for more corrections?
OJ? Michael Jackson? You pay'n attention?
posted by tkchrist at 2:26 PM on August 16, 2006
OJ? Michael Jackson? You pay'n attention?
posted by tkchrist at 2:26 PM on August 16, 2006
Arrested on sex charges in Thailand. Nothing against the Thais, but sheesh, I shudder to think what you'd have to do to get arrested on sex charges there.
posted by adamrice at 2:27 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by adamrice at 2:27 PM on August 16, 2006
*pours some OJ on the ground in memory of JonBenét*
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:28 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:28 PM on August 16, 2006
Man, I forgot how hot that little kid was.
And jonson, only two more years until her corpse is 18...
posted by Bugg at 2:29 PM on August 16, 2006 [2 favorites]
And jonson, only two more years until her corpse is 18...
posted by Bugg at 2:29 PM on August 16, 2006 [2 favorites]
No correction needed: police didn't arrest a person they possibly suspect:
posted by CodeBaloo at 2:31 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by CodeBaloo at 2:31 PM on August 16, 2006
Is there where I say how disgusted I am by child beauty pageants?
posted by gottabefunky at 2:32 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by gottabefunky at 2:32 PM on August 16, 2006
Parents who put their children through the hell-that-is-beauty-pageants should all be arrested for child abuse.
posted by eustacescrubb at 2:32 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by eustacescrubb at 2:32 PM on August 16, 2006
eustacescrubb writes "Parents who put their children through the hell-that-is-beauty-pageants should all be arrested for child abuse."
But then how would we ever know which child is the most beautiful? What do you have against beautiful children, euastacescrubb?
posted by mr_roboto at 2:33 PM on August 16, 2006
But then how would we ever know which child is the most beautiful? What do you have against beautiful children, euastacescrubb?
posted by mr_roboto at 2:33 PM on August 16, 2006
Arrested on sex charges in Thailand. Nothing against the Thais, but sheesh, I shudder to think what you'd have to do to get arrested on sex charges there.
Because in Thailand, everyone is a sex criminal?
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 2:36 PM on August 16, 2006
Because in Thailand, everyone is a sex criminal?
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 2:36 PM on August 16, 2006
While American businessmen watch through a hole in the wall.
posted by Zozo at 2:41 PM on August 16, 2006 [8 favorites]
posted by Zozo at 2:41 PM on August 16, 2006 [8 favorites]
Arrested on sex charges in Thailand. Nothing against the Thais, but sheesh, I shudder to think what you'd have to do to get arrested on sex charges there.
Thailand is actually more developed than most of it's neighbors. You should be wondering what Garry Glitter had to do to get kicked out of Cambodia on sex charges.
posted by snofoam at 2:47 PM on August 16, 2006
Thailand is actually more developed than most of it's neighbors. You should be wondering what Garry Glitter had to do to get kicked out of Cambodia on sex charges.
posted by snofoam at 2:47 PM on August 16, 2006
Why is America outsourcing our pedophiles? I blame the Republicans.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:52 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:52 PM on August 16, 2006
yeah - I know Gary Glitter ain't from around here
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:52 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:52 PM on August 16, 2006
i used some fancy aging simulation software to generate an image of what she would look like today, at age 16:
posted by snofoam at 2:52 PM on August 16, 2006 [3 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 2:52 PM on August 16, 2006 [3 favorites]
Yeah, ignorant comments about Thailand aren't helpful. There's an age of consent and laws that get enforced in Thailand, it's not some random hell-hole. People get arrested all the time on sex charges.
posted by AmbroseChapel at 2:54 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by AmbroseChapel at 2:54 PM on August 16, 2006
MetaFilter: the sordid world of Internet chatter
Amazing how much endurance this story has had. Is there a version of "Missing White Woman Syndrome" for Murdered White Girls?
posted by JParker at 2:54 PM on August 16, 2006
Amazing how much endurance this story has had. Is there a version of "Missing White Woman Syndrome" for Murdered White Girls?
posted by JParker at 2:54 PM on August 16, 2006
Wow! This on top of Castro getting sick! This has truly been an August to remember.
Yeah -- and we'd get an August trifecta, if the following were to be reported:
Yeah -- and we'd get an August trifecta, if the following were to be reported:
"Strong evidence is uncovered that reveals Gary Condit did indeed hire the Hell's Angels to off Chandra Levy in the summer of 2001."posted by ericb at 3:00 PM on August 16, 2006
You know, there's been a lot of noise lately about single- vs. multi- link posts, and I think this one is a good example of how padding out a crappy link with "context" doesn't make it any less lame.
posted by signal at 3:13 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by signal at 3:13 PM on August 16, 2006
Also, how creepy is the Crime Library?
Yes, being interested in detective work, criminal behavior, forensics, and the psychology behind them is sick, sick I tell you!
/sarcasm
posted by jonmc at 3:14 PM on August 16, 2006
Yes, being interested in detective work, criminal behavior, forensics, and the psychology behind them is sick, sick I tell you!
/sarcasm
posted by jonmc at 3:14 PM on August 16, 2006
Wow!! I never thought they would figure that one out....
posted by jacob hauser at 3:16 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by jacob hauser at 3:16 PM on August 16, 2006
From the Yahoo article on the same subject:
"It's been a very long 10 years, and I'm just sorry Patsy isn't here for me to hug her neck," the attorney said.
The hell?
posted by Powerful Religious Baby at 3:18 PM on August 16, 2006
"It's been a very long 10 years, and I'm just sorry Patsy isn't here for me to hug her neck," the attorney said.
The hell?
posted by Powerful Religious Baby at 3:18 PM on August 16, 2006
jonmc writes "Yes, being interested in detective work, criminal behavior, forensics, and the psychology behind them is sick, sick I tell you!"
posted by orthogonality at 3:18 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by orthogonality at 3:18 PM on August 16, 2006
The bones of Jimmy Hoffa found inside the Ark of the Covenant!!!
posted by stinkycheese at 3:19 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by stinkycheese at 3:19 PM on August 16, 2006
"Parents who put their children through the hell-that-is-beauty-pageants should all be arrested for child abuse."
Well, I dunno... While I've never been the pageant type or much of a fan of them, I've documented several child pageants, and I gotta say, it's not as bad as you might think. I went in with a lot of preconceived notions and I came away with a better understanding of the situation. A lot of the little girls love doing it, and while you see the occasional temper tantrum, you'll see that in the grocery store or the mall. I saw nothing I would consider coercion. Kids get agitated sometimes.
A lot of them are learning skills along the lines of music and dance, and the mommas who are really into the pageant scenes know that if they really want their young'uns to do well at the higher levels when they're older, they must be eloquent and charming young ladies- which is what I've encountered with the older ones. Are the lengths to which they go to make up the children slightly creepy? Perhaps, but then you have to consider that most little girls love dressing up like princesses, and these ones get swarovski-studded gowns and shiny tiaras and the works. They're not parading around their daughters' sexuality for the world to see- it's a pretty closed-culture.
Just sayin' is all.
posted by TheGoldenOne at 3:19 PM on August 16, 2006
Well, I dunno... While I've never been the pageant type or much of a fan of them, I've documented several child pageants, and I gotta say, it's not as bad as you might think. I went in with a lot of preconceived notions and I came away with a better understanding of the situation. A lot of the little girls love doing it, and while you see the occasional temper tantrum, you'll see that in the grocery store or the mall. I saw nothing I would consider coercion. Kids get agitated sometimes.
A lot of them are learning skills along the lines of music and dance, and the mommas who are really into the pageant scenes know that if they really want their young'uns to do well at the higher levels when they're older, they must be eloquent and charming young ladies- which is what I've encountered with the older ones. Are the lengths to which they go to make up the children slightly creepy? Perhaps, but then you have to consider that most little girls love dressing up like princesses, and these ones get swarovski-studded gowns and shiny tiaras and the works. They're not parading around their daughters' sexuality for the world to see- it's a pretty closed-culture.
Just sayin' is all.
posted by TheGoldenOne at 3:19 PM on August 16, 2006
jon benet did the mackinac bridge.
posted by quonsar at 3:21 PM on August 16, 2006 [2 favorites]
posted by quonsar at 3:21 PM on August 16, 2006 [2 favorites]
In other news, here's a monkey washing a cat.
posted by moonbird at 3:21 PM on August 16, 2006 [1 favorite]
posted by moonbird at 3:21 PM on August 16, 2006 [1 favorite]
Because in Thailand, everyone is a sex criminal?
My point was that Thailand has a reputation for very relaxed laws regarding sex. Was my point really that opaque, or were you looking for an argument? Because that's down the hall, this is abuse.
posted by adamrice at 3:23 PM on August 16, 2006
My point was that Thailand has a reputation for very relaxed laws regarding sex. Was my point really that opaque, or were you looking for an argument? Because that's down the hall, this is abuse.
posted by adamrice at 3:23 PM on August 16, 2006
jonmc writes "Yes, being interested in detective work, criminal behavior, forensics, and the psychology behind them is sick, sick I tell you!"
I don't think it's sick, and I've read plenty of crime library articles, but you've gotta admit: the writing can get a little...lurid. It's given me the occasional willies, is all.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:25 PM on August 16, 2006
I don't think it's sick, and I've read plenty of crime library articles, but you've gotta admit: the writing can get a little...lurid. It's given me the occasional willies, is all.
posted by mr_roboto at 3:25 PM on August 16, 2006
Better to pay close attention to what gets legislated and passed in the next few days. By the Cheneyco rubberstamp brigade. Uh, by both Republicans and Democrats.
posted by Unregistered User at 3:35 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by Unregistered User at 3:35 PM on August 16, 2006
I think Brill's Content broke how some tabloid reporters, bored from staking out the Ramsey house, would call in anonymous tips to the police just to make news to report.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 3:38 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by KirkJobSluder at 3:38 PM on August 16, 2006
You should be wondering what Garry Glitter had to do to get kicked out of Cambodia on sex charges.
He forgot to throw away the Dixie cup. (YouTube/NSFW/Kevin Smith warnings)
posted by CynicalKnight at 3:38 PM on August 16, 2006
He forgot to throw away the Dixie cup. (YouTube/NSFW/Kevin Smith warnings)
posted by CynicalKnight at 3:38 PM on August 16, 2006
That Crime Magazine link is whacked. Check out the pics of when they executed the dude from "Full Metal Jacket."
posted by turducken at 3:41 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by turducken at 3:41 PM on August 16, 2006
I mean, there is a real tragedy here though. Pretty much everyone thought the parents did it. Could you imagine dealing with the loss of your child, and everywhere you go, people look at you sideways, as the 'child-killer'
Then you get cancer, and die.
Fuck, I don't think it gets any worse than that.
posted by PissOnYourParade at 3:47 PM on August 16, 2006
Then you get cancer, and die.
Fuck, I don't think it gets any worse than that.
posted by PissOnYourParade at 3:47 PM on August 16, 2006
Fuck, I don't think it gets any worse than that.
Then people post stuff on the internet about you. Bastards!
posted by horsewithnoname at 3:53 PM on August 16, 2006
Then people post stuff on the internet about you. Bastards!
posted by horsewithnoname at 3:53 PM on August 16, 2006
Hey, here's another thought - the people that loved her care.
Ass.
posted by tristeza at 3:56 PM on August 16, 2006
Ass.
posted by tristeza at 3:56 PM on August 16, 2006
also, why is the father announcing this arrest and not Colorado lawmakers?
posted by amberglow at 3:57 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by amberglow at 3:57 PM on August 16, 2006
Hang on, I thought the peopel taht loved her were the murderers?
posted by Artw at 3:58 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by Artw at 3:58 PM on August 16, 2006
Pretty much everyone thought the parents did it.
And they may have -- the only thing (I've seen) released so far is that this person may have lived in the area, and that he knew details that haven't been made public.
posted by CodeBaloo at 3:58 PM on August 16, 2006
And they may have -- the only thing (I've seen) released so far is that this person may have lived in the area, and that he knew details that haven't been made public.
posted by CodeBaloo at 3:58 PM on August 16, 2006
This is disappointing. I totally thought the brother did it. But then again, I'm one of those types who automatically assumes the one who's being kept out of the public eye is the one who's guilty.
posted by emelenjr at 4:02 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by emelenjr at 4:02 PM on August 16, 2006
I'm holding out for more news. If true, given the particulars of this case, would make it mind-bogglingly outside the normal range of expectations.
posted by frogan at 4:06 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by frogan at 4:06 PM on August 16, 2006
Anyone that thinks that child brothels and underage prostitutes are a thing of the past in Thailand hasn't visited that country lately. Sure, there are arrests for patronizing a child prostitute, but those actually convicted just don't know how to bribe the locals, or had the misfortune of being caught by an agency not representative of the Thai government. Thai cops take non-cash bribes as bizarre as American hair products and booze, and remain notoriously crooked. If you question that, visit Pat Pong sometime where established businesses send half naked girls out the door to hold a laminated card in your face advertising their wares, and the list nearly always contains children as a possible menu option.
posted by onegreeneye at 4:06 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by onegreeneye at 4:06 PM on August 16, 2006
And jonson, only two more years until her corpse is 18...
posted by Bugg at 2:29 PM PST on August 16 [+ 1] [!]
EEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwlolz
posted by dopamine at 4:11 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by Bugg at 2:29 PM PST on August 16 [+ 1] [!]
EEEEEeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeewwwwwlolz
posted by dopamine at 4:11 PM on August 16, 2006
Hey, here's another thought - the people that loved her care.
Wow, I didn't know they read metafilter. Cool!
posted by bob sarabia at 4:41 PM on August 16, 2006
Wow, I didn't know they read metafilter. Cool!
posted by bob sarabia at 4:41 PM on August 16, 2006
I still say it was Professor Plum with the rope in the kitchen.
posted by Bageena at 5:08 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by Bageena at 5:08 PM on August 16, 2006
Well, I'm glad we finally have this vindication. All those who have spent years criticising parents who put their children in pagaents can fall silent, for now we know the truth: without those beauty pagaents, no one would ever be arrested for sex crimes in Thailand.
By the way, the local news here in Boulder says that he's confessed to some aspects of the crime not released to the public. I guess this is the formal announcement and source for information.
posted by koeselitz at 5:16 PM on August 16, 2006
By the way, the local news here in Boulder says that he's confessed to some aspects of the crime not released to the public. I guess this is the formal announcement and source for information.
posted by koeselitz at 5:16 PM on August 16, 2006
The Family Guy's Peter Griffin was on the case (from Wikipedia):
In an episode of Family Guy, during one of the show's cutaways, Peter Griffin promises the Ramsey parents that he will not rest until he finds their daughter's murderer. The cutaway strongly implies that they are, in fact, the killers.
posted by Frank Grimes at 5:23 PM on August 16, 2006
In an episode of Family Guy, during one of the show's cutaways, Peter Griffin promises the Ramsey parents that he will not rest until he finds their daughter's murderer. The cutaway strongly implies that they are, in fact, the killers.
posted by Frank Grimes at 5:23 PM on August 16, 2006
Frank Grimes: "In an episode of Family Guy, during one of the show's cutaways, Peter Griffin promises the Ramsey parents that he will not rest until he finds their daughter's murderer. The cutaway strongly implies that they are, in fact, the killers."
Just a little bit more evidence that can go toward proving in a court of law that The Family Guy was, and is, a shitty, shitty television show.
posted by koeselitz at 5:34 PM on August 16, 2006
Just a little bit more evidence that can go toward proving in a court of law that The Family Guy was, and is, a shitty, shitty television show.
posted by koeselitz at 5:34 PM on August 16, 2006
The Thai government is cracking down on child sex tourists. Adult sex, though is A-OK.
posted by delmoi at 5:55 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by delmoi at 5:55 PM on August 16, 2006
Yes, being interested in detective work, criminal behavior, forensics, and the psychology behind them is sick, sick I tell you!
Of course it's sick. You know it, I know it, and the American people know it.
People get into that stuff because it fascinates them, and so they can be around these corpses and mutilated things without actually committing any crimes. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
posted by delmoi at 5:59 PM on August 16, 2006
Of course it's sick. You know it, I know it, and the American people know it.
People get into that stuff because it fascinates them, and so they can be around these corpses and mutilated things without actually committing any crimes. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
posted by delmoi at 5:59 PM on August 16, 2006
South Park used them too, in a Butters episode (with OJ and Condit) : >
posted by amberglow at 6:00 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by amberglow at 6:00 PM on August 16, 2006
You know what really bothers me about this case?
That fucking accent aigu over the second e in her name.
posted by psmealey at 6:07 PM on August 16, 2006
That fucking accent aigu over the second e in her name.
posted by psmealey at 6:07 PM on August 16, 2006
I'm buying up all the é futures I can get my hands on.
posted by staggernation at 6:09 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by staggernation at 6:09 PM on August 16, 2006
If you question that, visit Pat Pong sometime where established businesses send half naked girls out the door to hold a laminated card in your face advertising their wares, and the list nearly always contains children as a possible menu option.
I do question this, and I have visited Patpong. And there are absolutely no bars there touting "children as a possible menu option".
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 6:19 PM on August 16, 2006
I do question this, and I have visited Patpong. And there are absolutely no bars there touting "children as a possible menu option".
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 6:19 PM on August 16, 2006
This should really exonerate that 'foreign faction'.
/$ can stay the punishment of anyone
/Mother or Father did it and the other was complicit
/People are only 'Innocent until proven guilty' before the BAR OF LAW -in the real world, you can look at something and say, "O.J. did it"
/He did.
posted by squidfartz at 6:29 PM on August 16, 2006
/$ can stay the punishment of anyone
/Mother or Father did it and the other was complicit
/People are only 'Innocent until proven guilty' before the BAR OF LAW -in the real world, you can look at something and say, "O.J. did it"
/He did.
posted by squidfartz at 6:29 PM on August 16, 2006
Jesus, this thread is still going on? People are really yammering about this tripe? The answer, disappointedly, appears to be yes. Fucking hell.
posted by moonbird at 7:03 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by moonbird at 7:03 PM on August 16, 2006
Until more information is forthcoming, color me skeptical.
posted by SPrintF at 7:33 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by SPrintF at 7:33 PM on August 16, 2006
Ramsey Suspect's San Francisco Bay Area Ties -- Was Wanted in Sonoma County For Possession of Child Pornography:
"Laura Karr filed for divorce after her husband was charged in 2001. When he was allowed out of jail, it was with a lot of limitations and restrictions, including supervised visits with his own children and he was not allowed to be around other children. He was ordered to stay off the computer. Investigators say he was using the computer for child pornography.posted by ericb at 7:41 PM on August 16, 2006
His ex-wife also says her husband did a lot of research on the JonBenet Ramsey case and also on Petaluma's own Polly Klaas.
Laura Karr also tells us she's devastated and embarrassed by these murder charges, but she does not believe that her husband did it. She says that during Christmas season of 1996 when JonBenet Ramsey was strangled and beaten to death in Colorado, they were living in Alabama at the time and she was with him the entire Christmas season."
[ABC News/KGO | August 16, 2006]
The suspect's brother was just on Fox saying the guy was researching a book on child killers and had communicated with the Polly Klass killer among others. He said his brother might have been at his house in Atlanta that Christmas and he's checking photos to prove it.
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:42 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:42 PM on August 16, 2006
His ex-wife also says her husband did a lot of research on the JonBenet Ramsey case and also on Petaluma's own Polly Klaas
+ The suspect's brother was just on Fox saying the guy was researching a book on child killers
Brings to mind the charges of kiddie porn brought against the Who's Pete Townshend.
posted by ericb at 7:53 PM on August 16, 2006
+ The suspect's brother was just on Fox saying the guy was researching a book on child killers
Brings to mind the charges of kiddie porn brought against the Who's Pete Townshend.
posted by ericb at 7:53 PM on August 16, 2006
OJ got arrested too. And that Richard Jewell guy.
Just sayin'.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:54 PM on August 16, 2006
Just sayin'.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 7:54 PM on August 16, 2006
So is his alibi going to be his brother or his ex?
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:54 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:54 PM on August 16, 2006
For 10 years, most people have assumed the parents were guilty. Today, following the release of sparse and sketchy details about a foreign arrest, most people have immediately flipped to assume the parents weren't guilty. I don't see a difference. Maybe this arrest will exculpate the parents, but it seems to me that we'll have to wait until more details are released to know that.
posted by cribcage at 7:56 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by cribcage at 7:56 PM on August 16, 2006
I think most of us still think the parents are guilty, crib.
posted by amberglow at 8:10 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by amberglow at 8:10 PM on August 16, 2006
I'm already nauseous from the repeated showing of her creepy beauty pageant footage all over again.
Please make it stop.
posted by 2sheets at 8:27 PM on August 16, 2006
Please make it stop.
posted by 2sheets at 8:27 PM on August 16, 2006
I work at the Boulder County Justice Center, but I had such a busy day that I didn't notice all the media trucks parked outside until I left to go home for work. I assumed something newsworthy had happened, but the Justice Center is going to be a circus tomorrow! Jon-Benet's murder still has popular interest locally-- I didn't think it still did nationally.
posted by jsteffa at 8:29 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by jsteffa at 8:29 PM on August 16, 2006
Well, for the record, I'm with emelenjr: I always figured it was the brother. But I think it's funny how primetime TV is alight with talking heads ranting about how this arrest obviously means that the Ramseys have been wrongfully persecuted for the past 10 years. "See, everyone? Obviously we were wrong, and the Ramseys were innocent. This is why you shouldn't jump to conclusions!"
posted by cribcage at 8:36 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by cribcage at 8:36 PM on August 16, 2006
Wasn't there something about the ransom note having been copied from a novel that Mrs. Ramsey had on her night stand? Am I imagining that?
posted by LarryC at 8:45 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by LarryC at 8:45 PM on August 16, 2006
Here's the note with some guy's textural anal.
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:48 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:48 PM on August 16, 2006
Bangkok -- Gary "Glitter" Condit arrested in textural anal sting.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 9:33 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 9:33 PM on August 16, 2006
John Karr has one arm. - stbalbach
One Armed Bandit Kills Beauty Queen? It's like a 50's detective novel.
posted by dejah420 at 9:59 PM on August 16, 2006
One Armed Bandit Kills Beauty Queen? It's like a 50's detective novel.
posted by dejah420 at 9:59 PM on August 16, 2006
Who is this JonBenet bloke, and would I need a tv to understand?
posted by Brak at 10:00 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by Brak at 10:00 PM on August 16, 2006
Also, how creepy is the Crime Library?
Hey pal, I'm quoted in an article there!
/Resumes licking the yearbook photos of girls I had crushes on in high school.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:15 PM on August 16, 2006
Hey pal, I'm quoted in an article there!
/Resumes licking the yearbook photos of girls I had crushes on in high school.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:15 PM on August 16, 2006
If you were an American busted on sex charges in Thailand, you too might confess to a celebrated unsolved crime in hopes of being extradited. I'll wait for the DNA match. But still: wow.
posted by Scram at 10:25 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by Scram at 10:25 PM on August 16, 2006
Today, following the release of sparse and sketchy details about a foreign arrest, most people have immediately flipped to assume the parents weren't guilty.
Eh, I never really beloved the parents were guilty. It just seemed so unnatural. I mean, people occasionally kill their children, but does it with a wire garrote. And why would they make up that crazy note rather then simply burying or burning the body or disposing of it in some other way.
It really just felt like lazy police work to me, and the forensic expert that was hired by the Ramsies came up with some compelling evidence (I saw a documentary man).
posted by delmoi at 11:07 PM on August 16, 2006
Eh, I never really beloved the parents were guilty. It just seemed so unnatural. I mean, people occasionally kill their children, but does it with a wire garrote. And why would they make up that crazy note rather then simply burying or burning the body or disposing of it in some other way.
It really just felt like lazy police work to me, and the forensic expert that was hired by the Ramsies came up with some compelling evidence (I saw a documentary man).
posted by delmoi at 11:07 PM on August 16, 2006
Eh, I never really beloved the parents were guilty. It just seemed so unnatural. I mean, people occasionally kill their children...
That's precisely why I'm holding out for more info. The sad fact is, statistically, when a kid that young is murdered, it's usually the parents. Plus, there was blunt force trauma to the head first. One of the detectives speculated the killer(s) thought they'd killed her outright that way, and had to use the garrote to finish the job when they later realized she wasn't actually dead.
posted by frogan at 11:19 PM on August 16, 2006
That's precisely why I'm holding out for more info. The sad fact is, statistically, when a kid that young is murdered, it's usually the parents. Plus, there was blunt force trauma to the head first. One of the detectives speculated the killer(s) thought they'd killed her outright that way, and had to use the garrote to finish the job when they later realized she wasn't actually dead.
posted by frogan at 11:19 PM on August 16, 2006
textural anal
Yeah, like I'm gonna click on that.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 11:22 PM on August 16, 2006
Yeah, like I'm gonna click on that.
posted by obiwanwasabi at 11:22 PM on August 16, 2006
Yeah, like I'm gonna click on that.
It's actually pretty interesting. I've seen similar analysis of speech and text patterns. The theory is, you're not near as good a liar as you think you are.
O.J. Simpson's "suicide note" mentions more girlfriends, business partners and golfing buddies than there are mentions of his ex-wife, and doesn't mention his children by name at all. Guess which one was more important to him.
posted by frogan at 11:52 PM on August 16, 2006
It's actually pretty interesting. I've seen similar analysis of speech and text patterns. The theory is, you're not near as good a liar as you think you are.
O.J. Simpson's "suicide note" mentions more girlfriends, business partners and golfing buddies than there are mentions of his ex-wife, and doesn't mention his children by name at all. Guess which one was more important to him.
posted by frogan at 11:52 PM on August 16, 2006
Powerful Religious Baby:
"It's been a very long 10 years, and I'm just sorry Patsy isn't here for me to hug her neck," the attorney said.
The hell?
This after noon I had a very similar reaction when I heard this quote on the MSNBC. Thankfully Tivo let me rewind and reassure myself that my mind wasn’t playing tricks on me.
posted by Tenuki at 12:05 AM on August 17, 2006
"It's been a very long 10 years, and I'm just sorry Patsy isn't here for me to hug her neck," the attorney said.
The hell?
This after noon I had a very similar reaction when I heard this quote on the MSNBC. Thankfully Tivo let me rewind and reassure myself that my mind wasn’t playing tricks on me.
posted by Tenuki at 12:05 AM on August 17, 2006
Also, "hug her neck" is very much a regional slang/saying.
posted by mrbill at 12:13 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by mrbill at 12:13 AM on August 17, 2006
So can the Ramsey's sue Family Guy now? Or is it protected because it's satire?
Keeping in mind of course that the Family Guy scene never actually accused her parents; it merely heavily implied that they killed her.
posted by Effigy2000 at 1:28 AM on August 17, 2006
Keeping in mind of course that the Family Guy scene never actually accused her parents; it merely heavily implied that they killed her.
posted by Effigy2000 at 1:28 AM on August 17, 2006
So can the Ramsey's sue Family Guy now? Or is it protected because it's satire?
Keeping in mind of course that the Family Guy scene never actually accused her parents; it merely heavily implied that they killed her.
posted by Effigy2000 at 1:28 AM on August 17, 2006
Keeping in mind of course that the Family Guy scene never actually accused her parents; it merely heavily implied that they killed her.
posted by Effigy2000 at 1:28 AM on August 17, 2006
So can the Ramsey's sue Family Guy now? Or is it protected because it's satire?
Keeping in mind of course that the Family Guy scene never actually accused her parents; it merely heavily implied that they killed her.
posted by Effigy2000 at 1:28 AM on August 17, 2006
Keeping in mind of course that the Family Guy scene never actually accused her parents; it merely heavily implied that they killed her.
posted by Effigy2000 at 1:28 AM on August 17, 2006
She's probably paying for it anyway. I believe it's covered by standard copyright agreements. So not really very exciting.
posted by asok at 2:42 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by asok at 2:42 AM on August 17, 2006
He doesn't really have one arm - it is a reference to The Fugitive?
posted by A189Nut at 4:00 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by A189Nut at 4:00 AM on August 17, 2006
Fuck, I don't think it gets any worse than that.
I'd say that starving to death in a war-torn third world country while tending your malaria and/or hiv infected relatives would be worse. But hey, who cares about brown people?
posted by spazzm at 4:00 AM on August 17, 2006
I'd say that starving to death in a war-torn third world country while tending your malaria and/or hiv infected relatives would be worse. But hey, who cares about brown people?
posted by spazzm at 4:00 AM on August 17, 2006
John Mark Karr doesn't care about brown crowned people.
(Actually, maybe he cares a little too much about them.)
posted by emelenjr at 4:16 AM on August 17, 2006
(Actually, maybe he cares a little too much about them.)
posted by emelenjr at 4:16 AM on August 17, 2006
From the BBC:
"I was with JonBenet when she died. Her death was an accident."
The six-year-old was found beaten and strangled in the basement of her family's home in Boulder...
Sorta like the time I accidentally stole a car and went on a three county shooting spree, stopping off to set fire to any hospitals I came across. Whoops!
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 4:24 AM on August 17, 2006
"I was with JonBenet when she died. Her death was an accident."
The six-year-old was found beaten and strangled in the basement of her family's home in Boulder...
Sorta like the time I accidentally stole a car and went on a three county shooting spree, stopping off to set fire to any hospitals I came across. Whoops!
posted by PinkStainlessTail at 4:24 AM on August 17, 2006
Man, I'm glad they caught that guy. I feel so much safer. I mean, for the last ten years I was just, y'know, looking over my shoulder constantly. I'd jump at the slightest things. If I accidentally left my home unlocked, I'd have to check all the closets and under everything, just to make sure the killer hadn't snuck in. And I'm terribly glad now that the media will let me know exactly where he is at all times for the forseeable future until after he is tried.
posted by Captaintripps at 5:07 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by Captaintripps at 5:07 AM on August 17, 2006
Is there a Godwin corollary to describe what spazzm just did?
posted by psmealey at 5:11 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by psmealey at 5:11 AM on August 17, 2006
Also, "hug her neck" is very much a regional slang/saying.
Am I the only one thinking "hug her neck" is some kind of backwater euphamism for strangling someone? Pretty apt, considering how she died. I wouldn't want to "hug her neck" now, either. It'd just snap her head off and you'd get all this gross decayed stuff and worms all over your hands. Eww.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:16 AM on August 17, 2006
Am I the only one thinking "hug her neck" is some kind of backwater euphamism for strangling someone? Pretty apt, considering how she died. I wouldn't want to "hug her neck" now, either. It'd just snap her head off and you'd get all this gross decayed stuff and worms all over your hands. Eww.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:16 AM on August 17, 2006
I'm not buying it. I still think that it was the brother.
This new dude may be a squirrel and a pedophile but this is all too bizarre. Ten years and they come up with THIS?!?!?
Nah. It's bullshit.
posted by bim at 5:59 AM on August 17, 2006
This new dude may be a squirrel and a pedophile but this is all too bizarre. Ten years and they come up with THIS?!?!?
Nah. It's bullshit.
posted by bim at 5:59 AM on August 17, 2006
He may look normal but damn, his demeanour in that press conference is creepalicious.
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:01 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:01 AM on August 17, 2006
Am I the only one thinking "hug her neck" is some kind of backwater euphamism for strangling someone?
Well, I can see how it might sound like that if you've never heard it before, but it just means a hug, really. My father used to say "neck hug" instead of just "hug."
posted by JanetLand at 6:16 AM on August 17, 2006
Well, I can see how it might sound like that if you've never heard it before, but it just means a hug, really. My father used to say "neck hug" instead of just "hug."
posted by JanetLand at 6:16 AM on August 17, 2006
This is so so so odd. He has a press conference? Says he's been writing about his guilt to Patsy? Then poses for pictures with the Thai cops?
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:35 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by CunningLinguist at 6:35 AM on August 17, 2006
...visit Pat Pong sometime where established businesses send half naked girls out the door to hold a laminated card in your face advertising their wares, and the list nearly always contains children as a possible menu option.
posted by onegreeneye at 4:06 PM PST on August 16
Bullshit.
posted by the cuban at 6:41 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by onegreeneye at 4:06 PM PST on August 16
Bullshit.
posted by the cuban at 6:41 AM on August 17, 2006
Fuck, I don't think it gets any worse than that.
I'd say that starving to death in a war-torn third world country while tending your malaria and/or hiv infected relatives would be worse. But hey, who cares about brown people?
Hey, call me crazy, but I could do without either.
It never ceases to amaze me that when we're dealing with an undeniably tragic event, people will generally respond with either faux-jaded humor or conspicious indignation about an unrelated issue.
As far as this guy's actually guilt, I suppose the DNA will tell.
posted by jonmc at 6:41 AM on August 17, 2006 [1 favorite]
I'd say that starving to death in a war-torn third world country while tending your malaria and/or hiv infected relatives would be worse. But hey, who cares about brown people?
Hey, call me crazy, but I could do without either.
It never ceases to amaze me that when we're dealing with an undeniably tragic event, people will generally respond with either faux-jaded humor or conspicious indignation about an unrelated issue.
As far as this guy's actually guilt, I suppose the DNA will tell.
posted by jonmc at 6:41 AM on August 17, 2006 [1 favorite]
.visit Pat Pong sometime where established businesses send half naked girls out the door to hold a laminated card in your face advertising their wares, and the list nearly always contains children as a possible menu option.
posted by onegreeneye at 4:06 PM PST on August 16
Bullshit.
That's tellin' him.
posted by jonmc at 6:42 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by onegreeneye at 4:06 PM PST on August 16
Bullshit.
That's tellin' him.
posted by jonmc at 6:42 AM on August 17, 2006
Well, maybe I was wrong.
It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Never a dull moment in this life.
posted by squidfartz at 6:58 AM on August 17, 2006
It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out.
Never a dull moment in this life.
posted by squidfartz at 6:58 AM on August 17, 2006
This is so so so odd. He has a press conference? Says he's been writing about his guilt to Patsy? Then poses for pictures with the Thai cops?
I think that he's an attention freak. Pretty soon he'll confess to being the second shooter on the grassy knoll.
posted by bim at 7:01 AM on August 17, 2006
I think that he's an attention freak. Pretty soon he'll confess to being the second shooter on the grassy knoll.
posted by bim at 7:01 AM on August 17, 2006
Back in 2001, when he was arrested for child porn, he told his dad it was about Jonbenet. Denver Post
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:08 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:08 AM on August 17, 2006
The creep has quite the track record:
"Karr was arrested in April 2001 in Sonoma County and charged with five counts of possession of child pornography, but he fled the county before he could be prosecuted...posted by ericb at 7:09 AM on August 17, 2006
...Karr worked in the Petaluma City Elementary School District as a substitute teacher from Dec. 8, 2000, to April 2, 2001, when he was dismissed.
Karr's father, Wexford Karr of Atlanta, told the Denver Post that his son had told him that he worked at one time at a Roman Catholic girls school in San Francisco and that he had joined the Catholic church.
The California Commission on Teacher Credentialing suspended Karr's credential on April 11, 2002, for allegedly committing an offense 'involving aiding and abetting the unlawful sale, use or exchange to minors of controlled substances,' according to the minutes of the commission's meeting.
...Authorities learned during the investigation that Karr had also been fired from teaching jobs in Georgia and another southern state amid similar allegations.
'We submitted (the case) to the D.A.'s office for prosecution,' Giordano said. 'At some point in the court process he failed to appear, and a warrant was issued for his arrest. That warrant is still outstanding.'
...JonBenet's parents, John and Patsy Ramsey, gave police information about Karr before he was identified as a suspect, their attorney said Wednesday. She would not say how the couple knew Karr....Karr worked in several schools in the district and in other schools in the North Bay."
[San Francisco Chronicle | August 17,2006]
Even more past criminal charges (from the Denver Post to which CunningLinguist links):"...a Colorado state official said John Karr has an extensive criminal record for sexual assaults across the South, including Tennessee."posted by ericb at 7:12 AM on August 17, 2006
But I think it's funny how primetime TV is alight with talking heads ranting about how this arrest obviously means that the Ramseys have been wrongfully persecuted for the past 10 years.
"Funny" is being generous. "Ironic" would be accurate but understated. "Disgraceful" is what it is.
OJ got arrested too. And that Richard Jewell guy.
In other words, police arrest the right guy half the time?
posted by pardonyou? at 7:20 AM on August 17, 2006
"Funny" is being generous. "Ironic" would be accurate but understated. "Disgraceful" is what it is.
OJ got arrested too. And that Richard Jewell guy.
In other words, police arrest the right guy half the time?
posted by pardonyou? at 7:20 AM on August 17, 2006
Jewell was never arrested.
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:31 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by KirkJobSluder at 7:31 AM on August 17, 2006
What a letdown. This guy didn't do it. He's a pedophile making a cry for help, but he wasn't even in Colorado when she died:
"Ms. Karr said that she and Mr. Karr were in Alabama together on Dec. 25, 1996, the day JonBenet Ramsey was murdered in Colorado."
For someone to get into that house without breaking in, to coax her out of her bed and get her into the basement would've at least have to be someone known to her. This guy did not even know about the Ramseys until much later.
posted by mattbucher at 7:31 AM on August 17, 2006
"Ms. Karr said that she and Mr. Karr were in Alabama together on Dec. 25, 1996, the day JonBenet Ramsey was murdered in Colorado."
For someone to get into that house without breaking in, to coax her out of her bed and get her into the basement would've at least have to be someone known to her. This guy did not even know about the Ramseys until much later.
posted by mattbucher at 7:31 AM on August 17, 2006
Yeah, but his brother says he thinks Karr was with him in Atlanta that same Christmas so something's weird.
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:41 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by CunningLinguist at 7:41 AM on August 17, 2006
Alabama, Georgia, neither is Boulder CO....
posted by mattbucher at 7:49 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by mattbucher at 7:49 AM on August 17, 2006
matt, while I do think that's an issue that needs to be resolved in the coming days, I have a hard time believing the cops haven't examined all of those possibilities. This isn't exactly a low-profile case -- I have to assume that they have some evidence to put him in or near Boulder at the time in question. I, obviously, don't know for sure either way, but I don't think it's more plausible to assume the ex-wife is telling the truth.
It is one bizarre case, though.
(on preview: Alabama, Georgia, neither is Boulder CO.... Yes, but by definition at least one alibi is a lie.)
posted by pardonyou? at 7:53 AM on August 17, 2006
It is one bizarre case, though.
(on preview: Alabama, Georgia, neither is Boulder CO.... Yes, but by definition at least one alibi is a lie.)
posted by pardonyou? at 7:53 AM on August 17, 2006
"Am I the only one thinking "hug her neck" is some kind of backwater euphamism for strangling someone?"
Nah, it's just a euphamism, period. My old grandmother back in Alabama used to sing an old song to me, went like:
"I love you / a bushel and a peck / a bushel and a peck / and a hug around the neck"
As for "a bushel and a peck", those are archaic forms of measurement that lived on in the song. You know, how things do down in the backwater.
OK, back to murdered children, Thai sex tours, whatever...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:55 AM on August 17, 2006
Nah, it's just a euphamism, period. My old grandmother back in Alabama used to sing an old song to me, went like:
"I love you / a bushel and a peck / a bushel and a peck / and a hug around the neck"
As for "a bushel and a peck", those are archaic forms of measurement that lived on in the song. You know, how things do down in the backwater.
OK, back to murdered children, Thai sex tours, whatever...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:55 AM on August 17, 2006
I'm not one to give the Boulder PD or DA's office a lot of credit in this case. They do not exactly have a stellar track record. I have a hard time believing that this guy who lived in the south followed the Ramseys to Colorado and then killed their daughter and returned back the next day or whatever. The guy was not in Boulder at the time of the murder.
posted by mattbucher at 7:56 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by mattbucher at 7:56 AM on August 17, 2006
mattbucher writes "For someone to get into that house without breaking in, to coax her out of her bed and get her into the basement would've at least have to be someone known to her. "
That's pretty much the sticking point for me.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 8:00 AM on August 17, 2006
That's pretty much the sticking point for me.
posted by dirtynumbangelboy at 8:00 AM on August 17, 2006
My Oma sang me the bushel and a peck song too. It was only years later I realized it was a cabaret song from Guys and Dolls. Which, for the record, is hardly a backwater type of musical.
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:01 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:01 AM on August 17, 2006
My sticking point is the note. It's just too weird. Then again, Mr. Karr seems very weird too, so who the hell knows.
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:02 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:02 AM on August 17, 2006
You know what really bothers me about this case?
That fucking accent aigu over the second e in her name.
posted by psmealey
Nominated for worlds worst girl's name - JonBenet
posted by telstar
Yes, indeed. Me and Mrs ob happened upon a show last week on the Ramsey case and we both commented on what a terrible name JonBenet is. Especially for a girl. It's a guy's first name and a fake French (faux, I suppose I should say) last name all in one. It's total nouveau riche, and by that I mean rich white trash...
Forget about charging them for child abuse because of the whole creepy pageant thing, the name police should have had first dibs.
posted by ob at 8:04 AM on August 17, 2006
That fucking accent aigu over the second e in her name.
posted by psmealey
Nominated for worlds worst girl's name - JonBenet
posted by telstar
Yes, indeed. Me and Mrs ob happened upon a show last week on the Ramsey case and we both commented on what a terrible name JonBenet is. Especially for a girl. It's a guy's first name and a fake French (faux, I suppose I should say) last name all in one. It's total nouveau riche, and by that I mean rich white trash...
Forget about charging them for child abuse because of the whole creepy pageant thing, the name police should have had first dibs.
posted by ob at 8:04 AM on August 17, 2006
It's a contraction of her father's first two names, John Bennet.
The accent aigu was added to frogify it. Hideous, but I still think the pageant thing was worse.
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:18 AM on August 17, 2006
The accent aigu was added to frogify it. Hideous, but I still think the pageant thing was worse.
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:18 AM on August 17, 2006
Hideous, but I still think the pageant thing was worse.
posted by CunningLinguist at 11:18 AM EST
Yeah you're probably right, but that name. Fuck!!! It's made worse by the fact that they called the son Burke, which is, you know, normal. Fine in fact.
posted by ob at 8:28 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by CunningLinguist at 11:18 AM EST
Yeah you're probably right, but that name. Fuck!!! It's made worse by the fact that they called the son Burke, which is, you know, normal. Fine in fact.
posted by ob at 8:28 AM on August 17, 2006
The Albany school is an online one, I believe. I don't think he was ever in NYS.
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:29 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by CunningLinguist at 8:29 AM on August 17, 2006
E-mails Led to JonBenet Suspect
"John Mark Karr's correspondence with a professor who made documentaries on the JonBenet Ramsey case was key to his arrest in the decade-old slaying, a private investigator was quoted as saying.posted by ericb at 8:45 AM on August 17, 2006
Karr, 41, arrested Wednesday in Bangkok, began an exchange of hundreds of e-mails with University of Colorado journalism professor Michael Tracey four years ago, revealing critical information about the 1996 killing of the 6-year-old beauty-pageant star, investigator Ollie Gray told the Rocky Mountain News.
'(The suspect) talked about being there, about doing this and doing that, and knowing this and knowing that," Gray said. "He had a whole bunch of things that didn't come out before. It wasn't part of what the media was allowed to get at before.'
[Reuters | August 17, 2006]
Time magazine: The JonBenet Suspect: A Loner's Life in Thailand.
posted by ericb at 8:47 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by ericb at 8:47 AM on August 17, 2006
i tend to be peeved about how the media jump on a story like this and randomly turn everyday people into a sideshow, more often ruining their lives in the process, through no fault/action of the victim...even more peeved at how their consumers will assume that the story being reported is complete and accurate--and where it is not, will toss in their own amateur-detective conclusions--and proceed to make judgments on that basis...i guess when it comes down to it, the media really are giving us what we want after all...
...to kind of echo what jonmc said, though: considering that there's a chance now that the parents were unfairly harrassed and accused in the midst of what any of us would consider devastating personal tragedy, what's the justification for continuing to criticize the parents for anything they have done--from pageants to naming their child? child pageants are a popular controversy to toss around these days, but they pale in comparison to (1) actual, intentional infliction of child abuse or (2) many of the excessive pressures and unrealistic expectations that parents put on children that might not happen to involve a stage at the local mall...
...i mean, yeah, you can make a joke out of it, but really, if the parents didn't have anything to do with the death of their child--and considering that whatever choices they made about raising her were most probably not for the purpose of inflicting intentional cruelty--not to mention that those choices are really none of our business anyway--then we should be rather heartbroken at the ever-worsening tragedy faced by this family...that won't keep it from happening again, of course, but considering the magnitude of the attention this case was given, it's really to our shame that it will happen time and again...
posted by troybob at 9:26 AM on August 17, 2006 [2 favorites]
...to kind of echo what jonmc said, though: considering that there's a chance now that the parents were unfairly harrassed and accused in the midst of what any of us would consider devastating personal tragedy, what's the justification for continuing to criticize the parents for anything they have done--from pageants to naming their child? child pageants are a popular controversy to toss around these days, but they pale in comparison to (1) actual, intentional infliction of child abuse or (2) many of the excessive pressures and unrealistic expectations that parents put on children that might not happen to involve a stage at the local mall...
...i mean, yeah, you can make a joke out of it, but really, if the parents didn't have anything to do with the death of their child--and considering that whatever choices they made about raising her were most probably not for the purpose of inflicting intentional cruelty--not to mention that those choices are really none of our business anyway--then we should be rather heartbroken at the ever-worsening tragedy faced by this family...that won't keep it from happening again, of course, but considering the magnitude of the attention this case was given, it's really to our shame that it will happen time and again...
posted by troybob at 9:26 AM on August 17, 2006 [2 favorites]
Some points just made by Boulder District Attorney Mary Lacy during her press conference:
(1) No charges have yet been filed against Karr
(2) It is "early in the investigation"
(3) An arrest was made based on cocerns for "public safety" and "fear of flight" of the suspect.
Hmmm. Seems that all they have at this point is e-mail messages and a statement and confession from the suspect.
Also of interest: the AP is now reporting that Karr said that he drugged JonBenet and then had sex with her. A former prosecutor working on the case in Boulder, CO said that the coroner's toxicology report never indicated the presence of drugs.
posted by ericb at 9:29 AM on August 17, 2006
(1) No charges have yet been filed against Karr
(2) It is "early in the investigation"
(3) An arrest was made based on cocerns for "public safety" and "fear of flight" of the suspect.
Hmmm. Seems that all they have at this point is e-mail messages and a statement and confession from the suspect.
Also of interest: the AP is now reporting that Karr said that he drugged JonBenet and then had sex with her. A former prosecutor working on the case in Boulder, CO said that the coroner's toxicology report never indicated the presence of drugs.
posted by ericb at 9:29 AM on August 17, 2006
He drugged her? Whatever. The only thing in her system was pineapple juice. Check the autopsy report.
posted by mattbucher at 9:35 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by mattbucher at 9:35 AM on August 17, 2006
There are reports that Karr apparently stated that he picked JonBenet up at school and drove her home, then taking her to the basement.
As is well-known, it was Christmas Day (obviously school vacation) and JonBenet had been with her family at a family friend's for a party that day. It was the next morning, December 26th. when her body was found.
With the hedging by the DA during her press conference and the statements of the suspect (assuming they are being reported accurately) I've got to say it is appearing that Karr maybe one of those "wackos" who is making a false confession in a high-profile case.
posted by ericb at 9:58 AM on August 17, 2006
As is well-known, it was Christmas Day (obviously school vacation) and JonBenet had been with her family at a family friend's for a party that day. It was the next morning, December 26th. when her body was found.
With the hedging by the DA during her press conference and the statements of the suspect (assuming they are being reported accurately) I've got to say it is appearing that Karr maybe one of those "wackos" who is making a false confession in a high-profile case.
posted by ericb at 9:58 AM on August 17, 2006
After all he had a deep fascination with the JonBenet case and has been researching it for quite sometime. Apparently, he is obsessed by stories about child slayings.
posted by ericb at 10:03 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by ericb at 10:03 AM on August 17, 2006
Yup. All the squirrels aren't in the trees. And the local police once again look incompetent.
posted by bim at 10:03 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by bim at 10:03 AM on August 17, 2006
Am I the only one thinking "hug her neck" is some kind of backwater euphamism for strangling someone?
Whatever it is, it is a staggeringly poor choice of idioms.
posted by Hypnic jerk at 10:14 AM on August 17, 2006
Whatever it is, it is a staggeringly poor choice of idioms.
posted by Hypnic jerk at 10:14 AM on August 17, 2006
I've got to say it is appearing that Karr maybe one of those "wackos" who is making a false confession in a high-profile case.
ditto
posted by mattbucher at 10:56 AM on August 17, 2006
ditto
posted by mattbucher at 10:56 AM on August 17, 2006
Jonbenet Ramsey D.A.: More Work Needed
"The district attorney in the JonBenet Ramsey slaying said Thursday there is ‘much more work’ to be done in the case against the suspect, and she warned the public not to ‘jump to conclusions.’posted by ericb at 10:58 AM on August 17, 2006
…Lacy suggested that the arrest may have been forced by other circumstances, including the need for public safety and fear the suspect might flee.
‘There are circumstances that exist in any case that mandate an arrest before an investigation is complete,’ Lacy said.
She refused to say whether authorities were worried Karr was lying about killing the little girl. Lacy said Karr has not been formally charged, and declined to speculate what counts he might face."
[Associated Press | August 17, 2006]
i don't get one inconsistency here--the same people who think this is a false confession report this guy's 'deep fascination' with and research of this case...why would his false confession contain so many details that conflict with your (apparently expert +/or obsessive) knowledge of the facts?
posted by troybob at 11:04 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by troybob at 11:04 AM on August 17, 2006
Well, I'm hopeful. First, Michael Kacey, the journalism professor, was in contact with him for years, talking about the case and such. The DA implies that those emails are near-confessions; there were apparently hundreds of them, very detailed. He says that the stack of the printed emails are "3/4 inch thick." That's a lot of paper, and it'll be a big chunk of evidence.
I don't know that a professor, especially one so close to the case, would alert the police to a false lead. He said in his brief response that he wants this guy to be presumed innocent, because the Ramseys weren't, and that he respects the police for taking such a huge risk.
The good news is that suspects are easily tested. DNA tests should be in very quickly once they get him back to the US. Hopefully, the police/ courthouse/ community here in Boulder will be spared the absolute shit they went through ten years ago. My fiancee
posted by koeselitz at 11:09 AM on August 17, 2006
I don't know that a professor, especially one so close to the case, would alert the police to a false lead. He said in his brief response that he wants this guy to be presumed innocent, because the Ramseys weren't, and that he respects the police for taking such a huge risk.
The good news is that suspects are easily tested. DNA tests should be in very quickly once they get him back to the US. Hopefully, the police/ courthouse/ community here in Boulder will be spared the absolute shit they went through ten years ago. My fiancee
posted by koeselitz at 11:09 AM on August 17, 2006
Maybe he wasn't as deeply fascinated with the details of the case as he was with deeply fascinated with Jonbenet's sexuality. Clearly the guy is in need of some professional psychiatric help.
posted by mattbucher at 11:10 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by mattbucher at 11:10 AM on August 17, 2006
sorry, my fiancee was 13 and living a block and a half from the Ramseys when this thing happened, and I can assure you, it was horrificly trailsome for everybody here. It's something people here remember.
posted by koeselitz at 11:11 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by koeselitz at 11:11 AM on August 17, 2006
Karr told Thai interrogators that he picked JonBenet up at her school and brought her to the basement. - AP
posted by CunningLinguist at 11:53 AM on August 17, 2006
posted by CunningLinguist at 11:53 AM on August 17, 2006
Karr told Thai interrogators that he picked JonBenet up at her school and brought her to the basement.
{o,o}
|)__)
-"-"-
O RLY?
posted by mattbucher at 12:26 PM on August 17, 2006
{o,o}
|)__)
-"-"-
O RLY?
posted by mattbucher at 12:26 PM on August 17, 2006
koeselitz says : "sorry, my fiancee was 13..."
Hmmm. Sounds like a confession to me.
posted by Brainy at 12:34 PM on August 17, 2006
Hmmm. Sounds like a confession to me.
posted by Brainy at 12:34 PM on August 17, 2006
I hate to see a spectre behind every tree, but this seems too simple and too tidy from the news reports. Can you imagine the blowback if ABC shows a picture of him 2/3 of a continent away on Christmas Day?
Until the DNA evidence comes in, I'm going to go with "man confesses to assassinating JFK, Garfield, and Lincoln to get out of Thai justice system".
Surely to goodness they have something besides his confession.
Also, "hug her neck" is very much a regional slang/saying.
Am I the only one thinking "hug her neck" is some kind of backwater euphamism for strangling someone? posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:16 AM CST on August 17 [+] [!]
I'm not sure how some of you yankees survive in the wild.
"Hug her neck" is a warm statement of loving and caring. For instance, "My daughter did so well at the beauty pageant that I wanted to just her her neck."
There are what, at least 4 posters in this thread that were completely confounded by this.
It's not that hard. Really. It's exactly what it sounds like.
I can't imagine what you guys are gonna come up with and be horrified by when you hear the phrase "Bless her heart".
I assume Civil will think it has to do with saying grace before consuming someone's cardiac muscle.
posted by Ynoxas at 12:35 PM on August 17, 2006
Until the DNA evidence comes in, I'm going to go with "man confesses to assassinating JFK, Garfield, and Lincoln to get out of Thai justice system".
Surely to goodness they have something besides his confession.
Also, "hug her neck" is very much a regional slang/saying.
Am I the only one thinking "hug her neck" is some kind of backwater euphamism for strangling someone? posted by Civil_Disobedient at 7:16 AM CST on August 17 [+] [!]
I'm not sure how some of you yankees survive in the wild.
"Hug her neck" is a warm statement of loving and caring. For instance, "My daughter did so well at the beauty pageant that I wanted to just her her neck."
There are what, at least 4 posters in this thread that were completely confounded by this.
It's not that hard. Really. It's exactly what it sounds like.
I can't imagine what you guys are gonna come up with and be horrified by when you hear the phrase "Bless her heart".
I assume Civil will think it has to do with saying grace before consuming someone's cardiac muscle.
posted by Ynoxas at 12:35 PM on August 17, 2006
"Hug her neck" is a warm statement of loving and caring.
Confirm. I've only heard US southerners use the term, and weren't the Ramseys from Georgia? Another variation is "love [one's] neck".
posted by telstar at 1:03 PM on August 17, 2006
Confirm. I've only heard US southerners use the term, and weren't the Ramseys from Georgia? Another variation is "love [one's] neck".
posted by telstar at 1:03 PM on August 17, 2006
Sorry, not everyone has heard that phrase. Today was the first time I ever heard "hug your neck." It sounds very strange to me.
posted by agregoli at 1:25 PM on August 17, 2006
posted by agregoli at 1:25 PM on August 17, 2006
It's something people here remember.
It's something that no one in the media will let us forget. Honestly, all due respect to the Ramseys, their friends, with regard to their loss and anguish, but why is this anything other than a local story?? I just went down the cafeteria to grab my afternoon coffee, and the story is all over the mainstream and cable news channels, and apparently has been all day.
posted by Hypnic jerk at 1:26 PM on August 17, 2006
It's something that no one in the media will let us forget. Honestly, all due respect to the Ramseys, their friends, with regard to their loss and anguish, but why is this anything other than a local story?? I just went down the cafeteria to grab my afternoon coffee, and the story is all over the mainstream and cable news channels, and apparently has been all day.
posted by Hypnic jerk at 1:26 PM on August 17, 2006
why is this anything other than a local story??
sexy kids.
posted by sonofsamiam at 1:29 PM on August 17, 2006
sexy kids.
posted by sonofsamiam at 1:29 PM on August 17, 2006
why is this anything other than a local story??
I think precisely because of the whole beauty pagent angle. There were lots and lots of pictures and video available of her in 1996, and most of them were very attention-grabbing and somewhat disturbing due to her being so heavy made-up. Perfect for TV news. Plus, the whole thing where the media only seems to care about wealthy, white missing/murdered kids. I doubt this would have garned such attention if JonBenet had been poor or non-white. Much the same as the Elizabeth Smart case, but with the added punch of a trolloped-up 6 year old.
posted by Shoeburyness at 2:27 PM on August 17, 2006
I think precisely because of the whole beauty pagent angle. There were lots and lots of pictures and video available of her in 1996, and most of them were very attention-grabbing and somewhat disturbing due to her being so heavy made-up. Perfect for TV news. Plus, the whole thing where the media only seems to care about wealthy, white missing/murdered kids. I doubt this would have garned such attention if JonBenet had been poor or non-white. Much the same as the Elizabeth Smart case, but with the added punch of a trolloped-up 6 year old.
posted by Shoeburyness at 2:27 PM on August 17, 2006
Just wanted to add that a tox screen can easily miss a drug with a high potency - unless you know to look specifically for that drug.
And koeselitz: What the hell is "horrificly trailsome?"
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 2:47 PM on August 17, 2006
And koeselitz: What the hell is "horrificly trailsome?"
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 2:47 PM on August 17, 2006
I do question this, and I have visited Patpong. And there are absolutely no bars there touting "children as a possible menu option".
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 6:19 PM PST on August 16 [+] [!]
In several decades of traveling to and from Thailand with my parents, alone, with my husband and with my children, Patpong establishments have always - and still did last December - advertise such wares to tourists male, female, old and young. Also, there's a notorious child brothel in Chiang Mai which, since at least 1987 when I first viewed it, and perhaps longer, foreign nationals have attempted, without success, to bring to the attention of the authorities. The response for at least 2 decades: "When we go there we see no children." Odd, since they wave to tourists from the balcony at all hours of the day and night. It's a tragic, horrible thing which the Thai government has long acknowleged as a problem (see their lame 1997 public statement that they're #2 to the US in child prostitution) but which they have long done little about. Even with the current Ramsey case, it was US authorities there looking for and tracking the suspect that brought any attention to the fact that he was looking for kiddies there.
posted by onegreeneye at 3:34 PM on August 17, 2006
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 6:19 PM PST on August 16 [+] [!]
In several decades of traveling to and from Thailand with my parents, alone, with my husband and with my children, Patpong establishments have always - and still did last December - advertise such wares to tourists male, female, old and young. Also, there's a notorious child brothel in Chiang Mai which, since at least 1987 when I first viewed it, and perhaps longer, foreign nationals have attempted, without success, to bring to the attention of the authorities. The response for at least 2 decades: "When we go there we see no children." Odd, since they wave to tourists from the balcony at all hours of the day and night. It's a tragic, horrible thing which the Thai government has long acknowleged as a problem (see their lame 1997 public statement that they're #2 to the US in child prostitution) but which they have long done little about. Even with the current Ramsey case, it was US authorities there looking for and tracking the suspect that brought any attention to the fact that he was looking for kiddies there.
posted by onegreeneye at 3:34 PM on August 17, 2006
It seems to me that the suspicious thing about the note was that he asked for the odd amount of $118,000, which was the amount of the Father's bonus that year (rounded off) - maybe there's some sort of error in reporting, or maybe that's a weird coincidence, but it always struck me as something that someone who had to make up a number while not thinking clearly would choose.
posted by milovoo at 4:16 PM on August 17, 2006
posted by milovoo at 4:16 PM on August 17, 2006
Remarkable how much this suspect looks like Oswald. I thought Patsy was dead, but apparently not.
posted by emelenjr at 4:49 PM on August 17, 2006
posted by emelenjr at 4:49 PM on August 17, 2006
Patpong establishments have always - and still did last December - advertise such wares
Funny, I never saw anything like that in Patpong, Soy Cowboy, Pattaya, Chang Mai, Chang Rai, Nakhon Ratchasima, or any of the other hundreds of towns/established areas. Nothing remotely like it.
Thailand has been cracking down hard on child prostitution since the 90s. Catching a foriegner "in the act" is one of the favorite pasttimes of the BKK police; the Pattaya Mail would often (as in once every couple of months--not every day) have the standard picture of sullen child predator surrounded by a bunch of happy, smiling Thai police. The only child prostitution that goes on these days is in the minds of naive Johns who think "looks young" equals "is young". Apparently a lot of tourists fall for it, too.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:00 PM on August 17, 2006
Funny, I never saw anything like that in Patpong, Soy Cowboy, Pattaya, Chang Mai, Chang Rai, Nakhon Ratchasima, or any of the other hundreds of towns/established areas. Nothing remotely like it.
Thailand has been cracking down hard on child prostitution since the 90s. Catching a foriegner "in the act" is one of the favorite pasttimes of the BKK police; the Pattaya Mail would often (as in once every couple of months--not every day) have the standard picture of sullen child predator surrounded by a bunch of happy, smiling Thai police. The only child prostitution that goes on these days is in the minds of naive Johns who think "looks young" equals "is young". Apparently a lot of tourists fall for it, too.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 5:00 PM on August 17, 2006
Father's name: Jon Benet
+
Mother's name: Patricia Ramsey
=
Girl in question's name: Jonbenet Patricia Ramsey
That's a crime against nature is what that is.
posted by iron chef morimoto at 5:12 PM on August 17, 2006
+
Mother's name: Patricia Ramsey
=
Girl in question's name: Jonbenet Patricia Ramsey
That's a crime against nature is what that is.
posted by iron chef morimoto at 5:12 PM on August 17, 2006
Just checked up on some numbers. Rohypnol at an effective dose would give a blood level of about 10 ng/ml. Checking the standards for drug screening, they would have cut off at 60 ng/ml for Rohypnol being positive or 300 ng/ml for benzodiazepines in general. There are tests for Rohypnol that are more sensitive if you know that is exactly what you are looking for, but a general screen would not have found it.
As for why I've always found this case interesting it was the strange note and circumstances - made for a good mystery. I always thought the way the public crucified the Ramseys for what many consider odd habits (entering a child in beauty contests) was interesting in its own right.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:19 PM on August 17, 2006
As for why I've always found this case interesting it was the strange note and circumstances - made for a good mystery. I always thought the way the public crucified the Ramseys for what many consider odd habits (entering a child in beauty contests) was interesting in its own right.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 6:19 PM on August 17, 2006
Even if he didn't do it, the suspect deserves to be arrested for that outfit. :>
posted by bim at 7:04 PM on August 17, 2006
posted by bim at 7:04 PM on August 17, 2006
Patpong establishments have always - and still did last December - advertise such wares to tourists male, female, old and young.
Okay, let's get this straight: What you're stating is that in Bangkok, in one of the mostly popular and densely touristed areas of the city, where a tourist police van is parked at the top of the street every night, where tourist families bring their children to shop for souvenirs, there are bars that so blatantly disregard this extremely serious law that they actually print up menus that advertise the availability of children for commercial sex. That's what you said.
Essentially what you're suggesting is that the nation of Thailand is so depraved and callous and utterly without shame that they would allow child prostitution to exist not just openly, but to be advertised in the street to every tourist walking by. You're going to have to come up with some sort of evidence to back up this outrageous assertion; something more than "I've seen it and you can't doubt me because I've been to Thailand a bunch of times." There is a lot of evidence out there to contradict the very plausibility of what you said.
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 7:35 PM on August 17, 2006
Okay, let's get this straight: What you're stating is that in Bangkok, in one of the mostly popular and densely touristed areas of the city, where a tourist police van is parked at the top of the street every night, where tourist families bring their children to shop for souvenirs, there are bars that so blatantly disregard this extremely serious law that they actually print up menus that advertise the availability of children for commercial sex. That's what you said.
Essentially what you're suggesting is that the nation of Thailand is so depraved and callous and utterly without shame that they would allow child prostitution to exist not just openly, but to be advertised in the street to every tourist walking by. You're going to have to come up with some sort of evidence to back up this outrageous assertion; something more than "I've seen it and you can't doubt me because I've been to Thailand a bunch of times." There is a lot of evidence out there to contradict the very plausibility of what you said.
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 7:35 PM on August 17, 2006
I have not seen any news except for this on all the newschannels since i got home from work--nothing about a Judge stating Bush broke the law (again)...no Iraq, no Lebanon--nothing but JonBenet shit.
posted by amberglow at 8:15 PM on August 17, 2006
posted by amberglow at 8:15 PM on August 17, 2006
It could be that one of the parents did write the ransom note while panicked, but I doubt it. Maybe the information about Mr. Ramsey's bonus was somehow conspicuous, perhaps sharing space with the note paper that the author used, in which case the author could have been an intruder.
Karr certainly has the serial killer pedophile backstory, and I wonder whether his research into JonBenet actually started sometime before her murder. She was something of a celebrity before she died.
As far as the discrepancy between his recent confession and material facts of the case, it's been a long time, and he might not be 100% rational (please?). It's possible that his recollection has evolved, and it is also possible that he was delusional at the time of the crime. And, if he was/is crazy, the note is suddenly not so easy to deconstruct, imo.
DNA tests will determine his culpability in the case.
On preview:
Amberglow, that is a tragic point you make. Do you suppose the phenomenon is market-driven?
posted by owhydididoit at 8:23 PM on August 17, 2006
Karr certainly has the serial killer pedophile backstory, and I wonder whether his research into JonBenet actually started sometime before her murder. She was something of a celebrity before she died.
As far as the discrepancy between his recent confession and material facts of the case, it's been a long time, and he might not be 100% rational (please?). It's possible that his recollection has evolved, and it is also possible that he was delusional at the time of the crime. And, if he was/is crazy, the note is suddenly not so easy to deconstruct, imo.
DNA tests will determine his culpability in the case.
On preview:
Amberglow, that is a tragic point you make. Do you suppose the phenomenon is market-driven?
posted by owhydididoit at 8:23 PM on August 17, 2006
totally, owhy--it was a proven attention-getter, and all tragic white girls always get massive media attention, even when dead 8 years or more. It's very perv-ish actually, and it's sick that they think people really care about her anymore. There's been this "only one story all day" thing going on lately on all those channels, and none of them are really vital or important. It's shutting out real news, and i don't think it helps anyone's ratings, so i don't get it.
That guy is totally creepy tho, in a non-obvious way.
posted by amberglow at 8:32 PM on August 17, 2006
That guy is totally creepy tho, in a non-obvious way.
posted by amberglow at 8:32 PM on August 17, 2006
Indeed.
posted by owhydididoit at 9:21 PM on August 17, 2006
posted by owhydididoit at 9:21 PM on August 17, 2006
One more voice to say that onegreeneye is either terribly confused or ... I don't know what the other explanations would be.
I've never been to Chiang Mai, but I've been to Bangkok a few times and PatPong every time I was in Bangkok.
I've seen those "half naked girls" holding the "laminated card in your face advertising their wares" and I've read the cards and indeed I've been into the bars. I've never seen so much as a hint of child prostitution in the bars, let alone printed on the cards. I've never seen a hint of it anywhere in Thailand, actually. Prostitution, yes of course, it's everywhere. It's pretty common outside Thailand too, you know, if really you want something to be upset about.
What those cards normally list, to the best of my recollection, is a list of those stupid shows with the girl who can shoot a ping-pong ball. It's not exactly classy, but it's nothing to do with prostitution.
And I've known a person, a quite normal intelligent person, take a glance at that "menu" and interpret it, in her profound distaste, as a list of sexual services.
But not even she thought "have sex with children" was on the list. What the hell did onegreeneye see, or think she saw?
Is there a MetaFilter member in the area who can go and take a couple of pictures? Maybe onegreeneye can point to something on the card and say "see!" and the rest of us can take it from there?
posted by AmbroseChapel at 9:52 PM on August 17, 2006
I've never been to Chiang Mai, but I've been to Bangkok a few times and PatPong every time I was in Bangkok.
I've seen those "half naked girls" holding the "laminated card in your face advertising their wares" and I've read the cards and indeed I've been into the bars. I've never seen so much as a hint of child prostitution in the bars, let alone printed on the cards. I've never seen a hint of it anywhere in Thailand, actually. Prostitution, yes of course, it's everywhere. It's pretty common outside Thailand too, you know, if really you want something to be upset about.
What those cards normally list, to the best of my recollection, is a list of those stupid shows with the girl who can shoot a ping-pong ball. It's not exactly classy, but it's nothing to do with prostitution.
And I've known a person, a quite normal intelligent person, take a glance at that "menu" and interpret it, in her profound distaste, as a list of sexual services.
But not even she thought "have sex with children" was on the list. What the hell did onegreeneye see, or think she saw?
Is there a MetaFilter member in the area who can go and take a couple of pictures? Maybe onegreeneye can point to something on the card and say "see!" and the rest of us can take it from there?
posted by AmbroseChapel at 9:52 PM on August 17, 2006
Sounds to me that the dude is either insane or is trying to get himself back to the USA out of fear of the Thai prison system.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:07 AM on August 18, 2006
posted by five fresh fish at 12:07 AM on August 18, 2006
mp3 courtesy of Pitchfork, The JonBenéts, Why We're Dead
posted by matteo at 4:36 AM on August 18, 2006
posted by matteo at 4:36 AM on August 18, 2006
More to the creep factor: Karr Wedded Teens
" The man who claimed he killed JonBenet Ramsey was known in his Alabama hometown for his flashy red sports car, but he was also dogged by questions about his marriages to teenage girls and behavior in elementary classrooms where he worked as a substitute teacher.posted by ericb at 8:21 AM on August 18, 2006
...Court records show a 14-year-old girl sought an annulment of their 'ceremonial marriage' in 1985, claiming she feared for her life when she agreed to wed him in 1984, when she was just 13 and he was 19.
Karr admitted she was a minor, documents show, but he disputed she was 13. A judge granted the annulment, and they didn't have any children.
Karr later married Lara Karr, who was 16 when their twin daughters died the day they were born on Sept. 1, 1989. The girls, Angel and Innocence Karr, are buried in the cemetery of a rural church in a family plot.
Former Sheriff A.C. Tice and others recalled the death of the newborns partly because of the circumstances: They were born at home rather than in a hospital."
[Associated Press | August 19, 2006]
'15 Minutes of Fame?' Experts Doubt Confession.
Doubts Over Confession in JonBenet Case.
Authorities Urge Caution Over JonBenet Ramsey Confession.
More Questions Arise in JonBenet Case.
Suspect's Answers Raise Questions About Credibility.
posted by ericb at 8:27 AM on August 18, 2006
Doubts Over Confession in JonBenet Case.
Authorities Urge Caution Over JonBenet Ramsey Confession.
More Questions Arise in JonBenet Case.
Suspect's Answers Raise Questions About Credibility.
posted by ericb at 8:27 AM on August 18, 2006
There's been this "only one story all day" thing going on lately on all those channels, and none of them are really vital or important.
Exactly. I don't get it at all. It's not like people are going to change the channel FROM the one station that's not covering JonBenÉt Ramsey/Chandra Levy/Natalee Holloway news porn stories. It would almost be a selling point to avoid covering them.
Think about it:
"On KYYZ cable news 24, we don't cover missing white girl stories, stories about oversexed teachers/housewives and adolescent boys, lurid details of BDSM/serial killer cases or celebrity news of any kind."
I am all over that news channel.
posted by Hypnic jerk at 2:36 PM on August 18, 2006
Exactly. I don't get it at all. It's not like people are going to change the channel FROM the one station that's not covering JonBenÉt Ramsey/Chandra Levy/Natalee Holloway news porn stories. It would almost be a selling point to avoid covering them.
Think about it:
"On KYYZ cable news 24, we don't cover missing white girl stories, stories about oversexed teachers/housewives and adolescent boys, lurid details of BDSM/serial killer cases or celebrity news of any kind."
I am all over that news channel.
posted by Hypnic jerk at 2:36 PM on August 18, 2006
me too, Hypnic.
And why is Homeland Security involved in this JonBenet shit anyway? ...Homeland Security officials and Thai police seized Karr in his modest Bangkok apartment on Wednesday afternoon, ...
"Upon investigation, we were able to identify that subject, and that is John Mark Karr," Ann Hurst, Homeland Security attache at the US Embassy, said at Bangkok's Department of Immigration Detention Center on Thursday. ...
Is it more illegal spying without warrants?
posted by amberglow at 3:21 PM on August 18, 2006
And why is Homeland Security involved in this JonBenet shit anyway? ...Homeland Security officials and Thai police seized Karr in his modest Bangkok apartment on Wednesday afternoon, ...
"Upon investigation, we were able to identify that subject, and that is John Mark Karr," Ann Hurst, Homeland Security attache at the US Embassy, said at Bangkok's Department of Immigration Detention Center on Thursday. ...
Is it more illegal spying without warrants?
posted by amberglow at 3:21 PM on August 18, 2006
Apparently a lot of tourists fall for it, too.
Westerners working in and/or with the Thai government, and making friends in that field, have gotten an earful for decades over the fact that Americans and Germans come to Thailand to have sex with children (As do the Japanese, but it's not so accepted to mention that). And these "john's" do so with a fair amount of success. The Thai govt. itself acknowledges currently a problem with children being sold for sex second only in numbers to, in their estimation, the U.S. When comparing out two populations, that makes their problem still, regardless of the supposed crack down which results in very few actual convictions vs. pictures in the paper, a major problem. I'm confused - you're saying children are not sold for sex in Thailand, and in the same breath saying that pedophiles are being arrested like mad. Odd.
posted by onegreeneye at 3:47 PM on August 18, 2006
Westerners working in and/or with the Thai government, and making friends in that field, have gotten an earful for decades over the fact that Americans and Germans come to Thailand to have sex with children (As do the Japanese, but it's not so accepted to mention that). And these "john's" do so with a fair amount of success. The Thai govt. itself acknowledges currently a problem with children being sold for sex second only in numbers to, in their estimation, the U.S. When comparing out two populations, that makes their problem still, regardless of the supposed crack down which results in very few actual convictions vs. pictures in the paper, a major problem. I'm confused - you're saying children are not sold for sex in Thailand, and in the same breath saying that pedophiles are being arrested like mad. Odd.
posted by onegreeneye at 3:47 PM on August 18, 2006
I suspected the man they arrested was only seeking publicity and that his 'confession' was a hoax.
posted by nickyskye at 8:05 PM on August 18, 2006
posted by nickyskye at 8:05 PM on August 18, 2006
I'm confused - you're saying children are not sold for sex in Thailand, and in the same breath saying that pedophiles are being arrested like mad. Odd.
Yes, you are confused. Nobody has said there is no child prostitution in Thailand, but several people have taken issue with your claim that children are offered on the "menus" of bars in the middle of Patpong. Do you have any hard evidence to back up this assertion?
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 8:12 PM on August 18, 2006
Yes, you are confused. Nobody has said there is no child prostitution in Thailand, but several people have taken issue with your claim that children are offered on the "menus" of bars in the middle of Patpong. Do you have any hard evidence to back up this assertion?
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 8:12 PM on August 18, 2006
Seriously, onegreeneye. There is one person here saying this bizarre child sex menu thing exists and a number of other people saying you're, at the very least, confused.
As kraftmatic has said, what you're saying is, on the face of it, completely illogical. Your story about Chiang Mai I have no comment on, but you're saying sex with children is openly touted in one of the most popular tourist areas of Bangkok, with printed evidence? Surely you must see why people (sensible well-travelled people who don't think of Asia as some kind of nightmare world anyway) would find that hard to believe?
posted by AmbroseChapel at 5:24 AM on August 19, 2006
As kraftmatic has said, what you're saying is, on the face of it, completely illogical. Your story about Chiang Mai I have no comment on, but you're saying sex with children is openly touted in one of the most popular tourist areas of Bangkok, with printed evidence? Surely you must see why people (sensible well-travelled people who don't think of Asia as some kind of nightmare world anyway) would find that hard to believe?
posted by AmbroseChapel at 5:24 AM on August 19, 2006
AmbroseChapel: Have you been to Pat Pong? It's been a common practice at least, and certainly before, the last 20+ years I've traveled to and worked in Thailand that women, and girls, hold out (to everyone/anyone walking by, including my 72 year old mother) laminated cards describing various sex acts which can be engaged in or viewed for a fee. As there are literally thousands of brothels in Thailand, with estimates that as many as 20% of the sex workers there are children, the Thai govt. attempts to dissuade the trade in children over the years seems, like much of the policing in the country, corrupt and ineffective. For info on the number see this: "The Police Department provides the highest estimate of the numbers of CSWs - 500,000 based on the number of registered entertainment places. The National Commission on Women's Affairs estimated the number to be 150,000 to 200,000, of whom not more than 20 per cent were thought to be children" And these are the registered places. Thailand is a beautiful, magical country to which I will continue to travel, and which my parents and children find equally amazing and life changing. Were money not an issue, I'd spend half the year at least there every year. However, it has it's problems, as do many countries where poverty exists - including the US. In such situations the value that is put on the lives of the children of the poor is not high. In Thailand, a place infused with so much beauty, it's somehow doubly tragic.
Westerners tend to see only the beauty and refuse to believe the horrors that exist for children in that country and many others (India, ugh). That's a convenient way, too, of being able to deny that Westerners are some of the top patronizers of such wares. As far as proof of the laminated cards, ugh, what can I say? Walk around any red light district in the country. It's not at all a hidden thing.
posted by onegreeneye at 9:03 AM on August 19, 2006
Westerners tend to see only the beauty and refuse to believe the horrors that exist for children in that country and many others (India, ugh). That's a convenient way, too, of being able to deny that Westerners are some of the top patronizers of such wares. As far as proof of the laminated cards, ugh, what can I say? Walk around any red light district in the country. It's not at all a hidden thing.
posted by onegreeneye at 9:03 AM on August 19, 2006
As far as proof of the laminated cards, ugh, what can I say?
You could begin by saying that you don't have any proof, to which I would respond: because it doesn't exist. I lived in Bangkok for nine years and I saw those laminated cards you're talking about. They describe the various shows, such as the ping pong ball nastiness, that are performed by adults inside. (Those shows are pretty disgusting to me, but that's just my opinion.) These places DO NOT offer children as sex objects, and if you look closely at those cards you will never see the word "children" on them. You can insist you saw otherwise; logic and testimony by others in this thread suggest you experienced some sort of hysterical imagining.
You seem to have a deep emotional connection with Thailand and a real concern about the tragedy of child sex there. I share the same concerns: I find the situation apalling and sad. But wildly falacious claims and exaggerations of the problem aren't helpful; you're simply spreading misinformation and anyone with any real knowledge of the situation cannot take you seriously. As well, you're discounting the very real progress the government has made in combating the problem in the last fifteen years or so.
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 9:43 AM on August 19, 2006
You could begin by saying that you don't have any proof, to which I would respond: because it doesn't exist. I lived in Bangkok for nine years and I saw those laminated cards you're talking about. They describe the various shows, such as the ping pong ball nastiness, that are performed by adults inside. (Those shows are pretty disgusting to me, but that's just my opinion.) These places DO NOT offer children as sex objects, and if you look closely at those cards you will never see the word "children" on them. You can insist you saw otherwise; logic and testimony by others in this thread suggest you experienced some sort of hysterical imagining.
You seem to have a deep emotional connection with Thailand and a real concern about the tragedy of child sex there. I share the same concerns: I find the situation apalling and sad. But wildly falacious claims and exaggerations of the problem aren't helpful; you're simply spreading misinformation and anyone with any real knowledge of the situation cannot take you seriously. As well, you're discounting the very real progress the government has made in combating the problem in the last fifteen years or so.
posted by Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese at 9:43 AM on August 19, 2006
Mainstream TV Media Drops The Ball On NSA Ruling, Instead Devotes Attention To JonBenet Ramsey.
posted by ericb at 10:40 AM on August 19, 2006
posted by ericb at 10:40 AM on August 19, 2006
And unsurprisingly, the media has all but forgotten Abeer Qassim Hamza al-Janabi.
posted by homunculus at 12:19 PM on August 19, 2006
posted by homunculus at 12:19 PM on August 19, 2006
Kraftmatic Adjustable Cheese: As there are literally thousands of brothels in Thailand, and numerous haunts in Pat Pong catering to the sex trade (the proliferation of bars with the word "Pussy" in the name is quite amazing). I'm fairly sure that unless you have some sort of addiction issue you can't possibly have frequented all the brothels in Thailand or even in Bangkok, much less been upstairs in all of them.
I too lived there, both as a juvenile and as an adult, and have continued to return again and again ever since. It's a lovely country of great beauty. It is not, however, a country where the policing of the sextrade is taken nearly as seriously as the rhetoric would have one believe. In 2003, the government reported 211 trafficking-related arrests, 86 prosecutions, and 20 convictions. During 2004, officials acted to seize assets of suspected traffickers in six cases per (US Department of State, 2005b)
Considering the sheer number of underage prostitutes the govt. itself admits to, and the incredibly low conviction rate for the trade in the underaged, that's evidence enough for me that the country has a long way to go in policing the trade at all.
My apologies for never snagging one of the laminated cards for your perusal. A google search finds plenty of blog entries describing them, as well as the underage girls at the oft frequented tourist spots. It's not at all unheard of.
More interesting than arguing, is the fact that in 2001 a NGO program was started in Chiang Mai to rescue hill tribe children from the brothels, and provide trade schooling and counseling as well as placement in foster-like homes.
posted by onegreeneye at 12:33 PM on August 19, 2006
I too lived there, both as a juvenile and as an adult, and have continued to return again and again ever since. It's a lovely country of great beauty. It is not, however, a country where the policing of the sextrade is taken nearly as seriously as the rhetoric would have one believe. In 2003, the government reported 211 trafficking-related arrests, 86 prosecutions, and 20 convictions. During 2004, officials acted to seize assets of suspected traffickers in six cases per (US Department of State, 2005b)
Considering the sheer number of underage prostitutes the govt. itself admits to, and the incredibly low conviction rate for the trade in the underaged, that's evidence enough for me that the country has a long way to go in policing the trade at all.
My apologies for never snagging one of the laminated cards for your perusal. A google search finds plenty of blog entries describing them, as well as the underage girls at the oft frequented tourist spots. It's not at all unheard of.
More interesting than arguing, is the fact that in 2001 a NGO program was started in Chiang Mai to rescue hill tribe children from the brothels, and provide trade schooling and counseling as well as placement in foster-like homes.
posted by onegreeneye at 12:33 PM on August 19, 2006
I'm fairly sure that...you can't possibly have frequented all the brothels in Thailand...
Uhh...but you just said:
Walk around any red light district in the country. It's not at all a hidden thing.
So which is it? Are these pamphlets everywhere, or are they limited to one specific brothel that you encountered one time in your fevered imagination?
posted by cribcage at 1:40 PM on August 19, 2006
Uhh...but you just said:
Walk around any red light district in the country. It's not at all a hidden thing.
So which is it? Are these pamphlets everywhere, or are they limited to one specific brothel that you encountered one time in your fevered imagination?
posted by cribcage at 1:40 PM on August 19, 2006
>AmbroseChapel: Have you been to Pat Pong?
Yes. If you'd read my posts you'd know that.
For what seems like the tenth time:
You're now saying that the cards don't actually advertise sex with children? I don't even know what your actual belief or assertion is, as of your more recent posts.
If you've given up on the idea that the cards advertise sex with children, and are asking us to believe that it's just implicit, because they advertise sex, we're nearly home.
All you need to do is realise that the cards don't advertise sex either, and you'll be agreeing with everyone else.
I previously posted that a friend of mine believed those cards listed sex acts. She's a sensible, intelligent person who never actually looked at them. I'm a sensible intelligent person who actually did look at them. Her information came from people telling her what was on them. Essentially, telling her horror stories.
So, to bring this down to the simplest possible issue: have you ever actually read one of these cards or not?
That's a question with two possible answers. Yes and no. It doesn't require figures, links, or long dissertations on the history and economy of Thailand.
Have you read one of these cards or not?
If so, what exactly did it say?
If not, where do you get your information?
posted by AmbroseChapel at 3:20 PM on August 19, 2006
Yes. If you'd read my posts you'd know that.
For what seems like the tenth time:
- There is child/underage prostitution in Thailand. Nobody is disputing that.
- There are not printed menus advertising the availablity of child prostitutes. Nobody except you has ever seen such a thing, including someone who lived in Thailand for nine years.
You're now saying that the cards don't actually advertise sex with children? I don't even know what your actual belief or assertion is, as of your more recent posts.
If you've given up on the idea that the cards advertise sex with children, and are asking us to believe that it's just implicit, because they advertise sex, we're nearly home.
All you need to do is realise that the cards don't advertise sex either, and you'll be agreeing with everyone else.
I previously posted that a friend of mine believed those cards listed sex acts. She's a sensible, intelligent person who never actually looked at them. I'm a sensible intelligent person who actually did look at them. Her information came from people telling her what was on them. Essentially, telling her horror stories.
So, to bring this down to the simplest possible issue: have you ever actually read one of these cards or not?
That's a question with two possible answers. Yes and no. It doesn't require figures, links, or long dissertations on the history and economy of Thailand.
Have you read one of these cards or not?
If so, what exactly did it say?
If not, where do you get your information?
posted by AmbroseChapel at 3:20 PM on August 19, 2006
Boys, boys, you're both pretty. No need to fight.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:51 PM on August 19, 2006
posted by five fresh fish at 6:51 PM on August 19, 2006
And unsurprisingly, the media has all but forgotten Abeer Qassim Hamza al-Janabi.
posted by homunculus at 12:19 PM PST on August 19
OMG.
That has to be put into a rock-solid good front page post. I don't know how you'd frame it, but that story needs to be read, even if it is a little cheezy toward the middle.
If that kind of ratswine is becoming an element of your army, you civvies are going to be fucked when the troops come home. Those creepy pyscopathic fuckers are going influence your kids.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:02 PM on August 19, 2006
posted by homunculus at 12:19 PM PST on August 19
OMG.
That has to be put into a rock-solid good front page post. I don't know how you'd frame it, but that story needs to be read, even if it is a little cheezy toward the middle.
If that kind of ratswine is becoming an element of your army, you civvies are going to be fucked when the troops come home. Those creepy pyscopathic fuckers are going influence your kids.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:02 PM on August 19, 2006
Ouch. Those are very young soldiers. And almost all of them are (were) cute as buttons.
Why is the USA still allowing Bush to kill their children? Seriously, looking at those photos... my god, one of the women has a six year-old!
I can't believe there isn't a louder call to bring the troops home.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:30 PM on August 22, 2006
Why is the USA still allowing Bush to kill their children? Seriously, looking at those photos... my god, one of the women has a six year-old!
I can't believe there isn't a louder call to bring the troops home.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:30 PM on August 22, 2006
>Doesnt look like onegreeneye is answering...
No, it doesn't. I can only assume she's been carried off by a jackalope, or had her kidneys stolen, or been stung by spiders nesting in her bouffant hairdo...
You know what gets me? She should have been happy to hear that it wasn't true. She should have been relieved to hear that the average Thai doesn't calmly accept such horrible cruelty and walk on by.
But it seems her "Cynical hardbitten traveller that I am, I love Thailand despite the hideous Fu-Manchu-like evil lurking on every corner" schtick needs that "evil" component or else it just doesn't hit the spot...
posted by AmbroseChapel at 11:54 PM on August 22, 2006
No, it doesn't. I can only assume she's been carried off by a jackalope, or had her kidneys stolen, or been stung by spiders nesting in her bouffant hairdo...
You know what gets me? She should have been happy to hear that it wasn't true. She should have been relieved to hear that the average Thai doesn't calmly accept such horrible cruelty and walk on by.
But it seems her "Cynical hardbitten traveller that I am, I love Thailand despite the hideous Fu-Manchu-like evil lurking on every corner" schtick needs that "evil" component or else it just doesn't hit the spot...
posted by AmbroseChapel at 11:54 PM on August 22, 2006
fff, none of us had ever seen or heard of any of these women killed unless we live in their hometown (and that town is small and/or lucky enough to still have real reporters covering local news instead of a Gannett or other giant chain)--unlike the current kiddie-porn frenzy.
We should be hearing about them all the time--and about why they died and why they were fighting.
posted by amberglow at 8:03 AM on August 23, 2006
We should be hearing about them all the time--and about why they died and why they were fighting.
posted by amberglow at 8:03 AM on August 23, 2006
I heard creepy tales from "tape lady" Wendy Hutchens on Larry King tonight. Here is her "official web page" with something purporting to be John Mark Karr's psychological profile. The Larry King transcript's not up yet so I can't link it here.
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 11:14 PM on August 27, 2006
posted by ClaudiaCenter at 11:14 PM on August 27, 2006
Charges against Karr dropped: his DNA doesn't match the DNA found at the scene.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:22 PM on August 28, 2006
posted by kirkaracha at 2:22 PM on August 28, 2006
Cheer up guys. Maybe OJ'll do something soon. Or, you know, you could check out what's going on elsewhere in the world.
posted by amberglow at 2:26 PM on August 28, 2006
posted by amberglow at 2:26 PM on August 28, 2006
So what was going on that the media needed to be distracted from covering?
posted by five fresh fish at 3:48 PM on August 28, 2006
posted by five fresh fish at 3:48 PM on August 28, 2006
the NSA court decision seems most damning. And i still want to know why Homeland Security was all involved in this guy's situation.
posted by amberglow at 1:34 PM on August 29, 2006
posted by amberglow at 1:34 PM on August 29, 2006
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posted by caddis at 2:14 PM on August 16, 2006