Oakland's Black Muslim bakery raided
August 3, 2007 12:09 PM Subscribe
At 5 am today, Your Black Muslim Bakery in Oakland was raided (video). The hub of Yusuf Bey's empire and religious sect, it has a checkered history involving murders, child rape, political corruption, vigilante justice, liquor store vandalism (previously), and internecine killings. Is today's raid related to yesterday's assassination of Oakland journalist Chauncey Bailey?
Yeah, I don't see that either.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:14 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:14 PM on August 3, 2007
I think the assassination of a newspaper editor rises above newsfilter. This is a useful update to that story.
posted by KokuRyu at 12:17 PM on August 3, 2007 [3 favorites]
posted by KokuRyu at 12:17 PM on August 3, 2007 [3 favorites]
The post seems somewhat one sided and "child rape" seems pretty harsh, though I suppose MetaFilter doesn't run on journalism school standards for sourcing and referencing allegations.
If this place is somehow hugely well-known in Oakland, then I stand corrected.
posted by GuyZero at 12:18 PM on August 3, 2007
If this place is somehow hugely well-known in Oakland, then I stand corrected.
posted by GuyZero at 12:18 PM on August 3, 2007
Hey, thanks for the post, haven't thought about Your Black Muslim Bakery in a while and I always wondered what the deal was...it does bakes a mean mean 7up cake.
posted by Eringatang at 12:21 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by Eringatang at 12:21 PM on August 3, 2007
When I worked in Oakland we used to go there occasionally for fish sandwiches, and maybe some bean pie. Then we started hearing stories about child molestation and such, and stopped going. They made some pretty good pie, though.
And yes, the bakery and the organization are quite well-known in Oaktown (and beyond).
posted by rtha at 12:21 PM on August 3, 2007
And yes, the bakery and the organization are quite well-known in Oaktown (and beyond).
posted by rtha at 12:21 PM on August 3, 2007
Yusuf Bey being charged with 27 counts of felony rape and committing a lewd act with a minor wasn't enough proof for you, GuyZero?
posted by salvia at 12:23 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by salvia at 12:23 PM on August 3, 2007
It's wasn't linked in the original post, that's all. I thought it was a pretty strong statement and I would have expected to see some sort of link for it. Obviously the info is out there. As I said, I stand corrected.
posted by GuyZero at 12:27 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by GuyZero at 12:27 PM on August 3, 2007
Yes, it is a well-known institution in Oakland/the East Bay.
posted by blucevalo at 12:28 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by blucevalo at 12:28 PM on August 3, 2007
GuyZero: For more info check out the Easy Bay Express' expose Part 1 and Part 2.
posted by aspo at 12:30 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by aspo at 12:30 PM on August 3, 2007
"Yusuf Bey being charged with 27 counts of felony rape and committing a lewd act with a minor"
Was he actually CONVICTED of any of this?
posted by davy at 12:35 PM on August 3, 2007
Was he actually CONVICTED of any of this?
posted by davy at 12:35 PM on August 3, 2007
Yeah, GuyZero, you have a point about the one-sidedness -- apparently in earlier years, the group did more for the community. (Some of the linked stories go into that.) So, I think you're right, that I could've made that more clear.
To me what's interesting is how the Black Muslim Bakery ties in to the political history of Oakland during four very intense decades. One of the news articles talks about the love-hate relationship that the political establishment had with them.
The last thing I was going to say (and then I promise I'm leaving the thread) is that I live a block and a half from the bakery, and at the last neighborhood safety meeting I attended, someone who lived directly behind the bakery itself described how eerily quiet everything has been there for the last few months, but with new and odd goings-on (beebee gun target practice at all hours, and hosing down the backyard at 3 am). She said it seemed like something had definitely changed... so maybe the police figured out what it was!
/ getting out of the thread now
posted by salvia at 12:37 PM on August 3, 2007
To me what's interesting is how the Black Muslim Bakery ties in to the political history of Oakland during four very intense decades. One of the news articles talks about the love-hate relationship that the political establishment had with them.
The last thing I was going to say (and then I promise I'm leaving the thread) is that I live a block and a half from the bakery, and at the last neighborhood safety meeting I attended, someone who lived directly behind the bakery itself described how eerily quiet everything has been there for the last few months, but with new and odd goings-on (beebee gun target practice at all hours, and hosing down the backyard at 3 am). She said it seemed like something had definitely changed... so maybe the police figured out what it was!
/ getting out of the thread now
posted by salvia at 12:37 PM on August 3, 2007
though I suppose MetaFilter doesn't run on journalism school standards for sourcing and referencing allegations.
Although it was established a while ago that we do operate somewhere above Livejournalism standards....
posted by COBRA! at 12:44 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
Although it was established a while ago that we do operate somewhere above Livejournalism standards....
posted by COBRA! at 12:44 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
Well, I certainly understand the context better now. I don't live a block and a half from the place, so I needed a little help getting the background on this one. Definitely a crazy story.
posted by GuyZero at 12:45 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by GuyZero at 12:45 PM on August 3, 2007
Sounds suspiciously like the Jews trying to keep a hold on the bakery industry.
posted by b_thinky at 12:48 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by b_thinky at 12:48 PM on August 3, 2007
Huh..I didn't know that I had a muslim bakery. Good to know.
posted by spicynuts at 12:51 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by spicynuts at 12:51 PM on August 3, 2007
Well, you DID have one.
posted by IronLizard at 12:52 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by IronLizard at 12:52 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
The YBMB guys have a reputation for thugishness. A friend who works at a SF food co-op was had been assaulted by a Bakery guy who was selling their pies outside the store, which they have a clear policy against. When he was asked to leave, he dealt with it by punching an employee. Of course, that could just be one badly behaved individual...
I also have to say that I don't know when I've seen a more somber looking group of young women than at YBMB on San Pablo.
posted by smartyboots at 12:58 PM on August 3, 2007
I also have to say that I don't know when I've seen a more somber looking group of young women than at YBMB on San Pablo.
posted by smartyboots at 12:58 PM on August 3, 2007
Huh..I didn't know that I had a muslim bakery. Good to know.
You don't. It's my black muslim bakery. They wrap my cookies up in copies of the Time magazine that named me person of the year.
posted by googly at 12:59 PM on August 3, 2007
You don't. It's my black muslim bakery. They wrap my cookies up in copies of the Time magazine that named me person of the year.
posted by googly at 12:59 PM on August 3, 2007
GuyZero: For more info check out the Easy Bay Express' expose Part 1 and Part 2.
Yet again, opportunistic cultists take advantage of a community in need - and all some can do is condescendingly pat them on the head. Thanks for this. A sad and bizarre story.
posted by Sticherbeast at 1:05 PM on August 3, 2007
Yet again, opportunistic cultists take advantage of a community in need - and all some can do is condescendingly pat them on the head. Thanks for this. A sad and bizarre story.
posted by Sticherbeast at 1:05 PM on August 3, 2007
FWIW, the assassinated reporter Chauncey Bailey shows up in the 2002 East Bay Express article. Curious.
posted by Sticherbeast at 1:22 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by Sticherbeast at 1:22 PM on August 3, 2007
I see: if a person dies while he's being tried that automagically means he's guilty, it's proof of the Judgment of God!
So since Hitler killed himself before he could be put on trial that meant he was innocent then, right?
posted by davy at 1:45 PM on August 3, 2007
So since Hitler killed himself before he could be put on trial that meant he was innocent then, right?
posted by davy at 1:45 PM on August 3, 2007
I see from RTFA: "Bey died of colon cancer in October 2003 while awaiting trial on 27 counts of sex crimes, including at least one count in which DNA identified him as the father of a child of a 13-year-old girl."
We've never known of a reporter not getting his facts straight about that "science" stuff, have we. Anyway, the principle is that the charges remain unproven until the accused is found guilty. That we occasionally have to strain to give a Black Muslim with a lecherous reputation the benefit of the doubt just comes with the territory.
posted by davy at 2:08 PM on August 3, 2007
We've never known of a reporter not getting his facts straight about that "science" stuff, have we. Anyway, the principle is that the charges remain unproven until the accused is found guilty. That we occasionally have to strain to give a Black Muslim with a lecherous reputation the benefit of the doubt just comes with the territory.
posted by davy at 2:08 PM on August 3, 2007
Davy, the child's DNA proved Yusuf Bey was the father. Case closed.
Even the DNA is against him! Conspiracy!
posted by Sticherbeast at 2:20 PM on August 3, 2007
Even the DNA is against him! Conspiracy!
posted by Sticherbeast at 2:20 PM on August 3, 2007
It's pretty well-known that DNA is merely a tool of the zionist conspiracy. I mean, duh.
posted by aramaic at 2:24 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by aramaic at 2:24 PM on August 3, 2007
Davy, the child's DNA proved Yusuf Bey was the father.
Fucking cops. Why they gotta always be playing the evidence card and shit?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 2:35 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
Fucking cops. Why they gotta always be playing the evidence card and shit?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 2:35 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
Why the hell do all of you have to gang up on Davy? Just because what he's saying goes against all that "common sense/logic" stuff doesn't mean you have to automatically assume he's wrong.
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 2:38 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by CitrusFreak12 at 2:38 PM on August 3, 2007
I was going to sign up for an alternative account named "Goliath" and drop the $5 just so I could post "What's the matter, Davy?" -- but stopped myself at the PayPal page, and have decided to take a lovely afternoon walk instead.
posted by davejay at 2:44 PM on August 3, 2007 [4 favorites]
posted by davejay at 2:44 PM on August 3, 2007 [4 favorites]
NYT on Bailey: The editor of a prominent African-American newspaper here was killed on a downtown street Thursday morning in an attack the police described as “targeted.”...
posted by amberglow at 2:44 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by amberglow at 2:44 PM on August 3, 2007
I've always felt really conflicted about YBMB. They have the best veggie and tofu burgers in town, and some of their community work (in the self-determination sense, not the outreach sense) has been really positive. Plus, YBMB actually sells healthy food to the community instead of fast-food garbage.
Obviously, Yusef Bey and his minions have also done a lot of damage. Along with the well-documented sexual abuses, the organization is openly homophobic - so it's always been a bit weird for me as a big old bull dagger to walk in there for some cinamon rolls. If they were involved with this murder, that clearly raises the stakes.
Compare YBMB to McDonalds though, and the damage McDonalds has done is much, much worse. Even one local McDonalds seems as exploitive as YBMB, with no positive counter-balance. Of course, there are other places to eat besides YBMB and McDonalds, but as a local, I've always felt that because they're black, the Black Muslims are held to a stricter standard than corporate chains.
As a side-note, a friend of mine was dumpster-diving there once a number of years ago, and she was caught by some staffers and assaulted pretty severely.
posted by serazin at 2:45 PM on August 3, 2007
Obviously, Yusef Bey and his minions have also done a lot of damage. Along with the well-documented sexual abuses, the organization is openly homophobic - so it's always been a bit weird for me as a big old bull dagger to walk in there for some cinamon rolls. If they were involved with this murder, that clearly raises the stakes.
Compare YBMB to McDonalds though, and the damage McDonalds has done is much, much worse. Even one local McDonalds seems as exploitive as YBMB, with no positive counter-balance. Of course, there are other places to eat besides YBMB and McDonalds, but as a local, I've always felt that because they're black, the Black Muslims are held to a stricter standard than corporate chains.
As a side-note, a friend of mine was dumpster-diving there once a number of years ago, and she was caught by some staffers and assaulted pretty severely.
posted by serazin at 2:45 PM on August 3, 2007
Oh come on. The value of a DNA result is not proven in court until the case is proven in court. (Note that I did say "we occasionally have to strain," didn't I.) And anyway I'm taking law here, legal principles and procedures, not "common sense/logic"; they don't often have much to do with each other.
I admit I'm tempted to believe the reports of DNA evidence in that one charge myself, cult leaders are prone to abusing believers' trust almost by definition, but even that one sin does not prove he was guilty of all the other Bad Things people are saying he did. (All y'all Mefites who don't understand that last point please show further idiocy by chiming in with even more personal abuse.)
Oh and speaking of "Zionist conspiracy," if one professor is right the second-longest- running one (behind Xianity, some say) is Islam. It's a neat idea to play with, though it sounds a bit far-fetched even to me.
posted by davy at 2:53 PM on August 3, 2007
I admit I'm tempted to believe the reports of DNA evidence in that one charge myself, cult leaders are prone to abusing believers' trust almost by definition, but even that one sin does not prove he was guilty of all the other Bad Things people are saying he did. (All y'all Mefites who don't understand that last point please show further idiocy by chiming in with even more personal abuse.)
Oh and speaking of "Zionist conspiracy," if one professor is right the second-longest- running one (behind Xianity, some say) is Islam. It's a neat idea to play with, though it sounds a bit far-fetched even to me.
posted by davy at 2:53 PM on August 3, 2007
davy writes "Anyway, the principle is that the charges remain unproven until the accused is found guilty."
That's in a court of law, and we're not in court. It is possible to have an opinion without waiting for the court to declare his guilt. Al Capone was only ever convicted of tax evasion. I doubt that's all he did.
posted by krinklyfig at 2:56 PM on August 3, 2007
That's in a court of law, and we're not in court. It is possible to have an opinion without waiting for the court to declare his guilt. Al Capone was only ever convicted of tax evasion. I doubt that's all he did.
posted by krinklyfig at 2:56 PM on August 3, 2007
But your opinion, krinklyfig, is not binding on everybody else. And we're speaking here of a court case, are we not?
Oh and aramaic, I don't know what you were getting at by bring up "Zionist conspiracy" upthread: shall I take it you think that everybody who fails to share your prejudices and gullibilities must be out kill all the Jews?
posted by davy at 3:04 PM on August 3, 2007
Oh and aramaic, I don't know what you were getting at by bring up "Zionist conspiracy" upthread: shall I take it you think that everybody who fails to share your prejudices and gullibilities must be out kill all the Jews?
posted by davy at 3:04 PM on August 3, 2007
(Ach, 'by bringING up.' I hate it that sarcasm is lessened by such typos.)
posted by davy at 3:05 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by davy at 3:05 PM on August 3, 2007
It's wasn't linked in the original post, that's all. I thought it was a pretty strong statement and I would have expected to see some sort of link for it. Obviously the info is out there. As I said, I stand corrected.
Wrong!
From the FPP's third link to a San Francsico Chronicle article (hardly poor "journalism school standards for sourcing and referencing..."):
posted by ericb at 3:09 PM on August 3, 2007
Wrong!
From the FPP's third link to a San Francsico Chronicle article (hardly poor "journalism school standards for sourcing and referencing..."):
"Bey turned himself in to police later that year after he was accused of having sex with a 15-year-old girl two decades earlier. The victim, then 36, told police she had had sex with Bey in 1981, when she was 15, and had given birth to his child the next year. DNA evidence confirmed that Bey was the father of the woman's child.And from the fourth link is this Oakland Tribune article:
Barely four months after Bey died of colon cancer, his hand-picked successor to run the bakery chain and other businesses disappeared. Six months later, authorities found Waajid Aljawwaad's decomposing body near a trail in the city's foothills."
"A prominent Muslim leader was jailed Thursday pending $1 million bail after being charged with sexually preying on young girls over a period of nearly 20 years....Bey stood mutely, his hands clasped in front of him, as Hymer arraigned him on the 27 felony sex crime counts Ortega presented in paperwork amending the original charges in the case."Suggestion -- next time read the linked articles before commenting in a thread.
posted by ericb at 3:09 PM on August 3, 2007
I've always felt really conflicted about YBMB. They have the best veggie and tofu burgers in town, and some of their community work (in the self-determination sense, not the outreach sense) has been really positive. Plus, YBMB actually sells healthy food to the community instead of fast-food garbage.
Well, I think it just goes to show you that being right about some things doesn't mean you're right about other things. Just because a group has a healthy respect for the environment, a quality product, and a desire to do good in the community, that doesn't exclude the possibility that the leaders are corrupt and their ideology has more than a few racist, misogynistic, separatist, supremacist, and homophobic threads, and that much of their work in the community may come with a very serious price. People and groups are capable of both good and evil, and charismatic demagogues are brilliant at exploiting troubled communities. And it's a rare demagogue who DOESN'T do something for their community; just ask Boss Tweed.
I'm not here to praise or bury their organization, but I don't see any reason to be any kinder to them than to your standard issue right-wing religious nutjob outfit.
...
Oh come on. The value of a DNA result is not proven in court until the case is proven in court.
"A broken leg isn't proven in court until the case is proven in court. Until then, your leg should be considered whole, and you are encouraged to walk to the hospital!"
We're not in court, and the process of "proving" that DNA result in court would consist of presenting it as evidence. The DNA results exist as an object and hardly require further interpretation, unless you think the poor girl just accidentally fell on his dick on something.
And while there's no guarantee (nor any reason to believe) that ALL of the accusations against Bey are absolutely true in every respect, the idea that this is all one huge conspiracy or misunderstanding seems even more far-fetched, and I can scarcely think of another misogynistic, homophobic, racist crank who'd get a similar benefit of the doubt from MetaFilter.
I can't speak for each and every individual accusation, but the guy sounds like a fanatical, egoistic opportunistic who combines a community's need for order and self-determination with his own hateful, selfish agenda. Bleh.
posted by Sticherbeast at 3:22 PM on August 3, 2007 [5 favorites]
Well, I think it just goes to show you that being right about some things doesn't mean you're right about other things. Just because a group has a healthy respect for the environment, a quality product, and a desire to do good in the community, that doesn't exclude the possibility that the leaders are corrupt and their ideology has more than a few racist, misogynistic, separatist, supremacist, and homophobic threads, and that much of their work in the community may come with a very serious price. People and groups are capable of both good and evil, and charismatic demagogues are brilliant at exploiting troubled communities. And it's a rare demagogue who DOESN'T do something for their community; just ask Boss Tweed.
I'm not here to praise or bury their organization, but I don't see any reason to be any kinder to them than to your standard issue right-wing religious nutjob outfit.
...
Oh come on. The value of a DNA result is not proven in court until the case is proven in court.
"A broken leg isn't proven in court until the case is proven in court. Until then, your leg should be considered whole, and you are encouraged to walk to the hospital!"
We're not in court, and the process of "proving" that DNA result in court would consist of presenting it as evidence. The DNA results exist as an object and hardly require further interpretation, unless you think the poor girl just accidentally fell on his dick on something.
And while there's no guarantee (nor any reason to believe) that ALL of the accusations against Bey are absolutely true in every respect, the idea that this is all one huge conspiracy or misunderstanding seems even more far-fetched, and I can scarcely think of another misogynistic, homophobic, racist crank who'd get a similar benefit of the doubt from MetaFilter.
I can't speak for each and every individual accusation, but the guy sounds like a fanatical, egoistic opportunistic who combines a community's need for order and self-determination with his own hateful, selfish agenda. Bleh.
posted by Sticherbeast at 3:22 PM on August 3, 2007 [5 favorites]
This is a shame. They made some damn good food, and (from the outside) they seemed like a decent community organization. Sucks they are run by morally corrupt assholes.
posted by gnutron at 3:22 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by gnutron at 3:22 PM on August 3, 2007
davy writes "But your opinion, krinklyfig, is not binding on everybody else. And we're speaking here of a court case, are we not? "
I don't think we're discussing whether the court found him guilty. AFAIK, people were opining if he's guilty or not. All was ever said in this thread was that he was charged, not convicted. Not to belabor the obvious, but of course anyone's opinion is just that, an opinion. And again, it's possible to have an opinion about someone's guilt involving a crime without a conviction in court.
posted by krinklyfig at 3:25 PM on August 3, 2007
I don't think we're discussing whether the court found him guilty. AFAIK, people were opining if he's guilty or not. All was ever said in this thread was that he was charged, not convicted. Not to belabor the obvious, but of course anyone's opinion is just that, an opinion. And again, it's possible to have an opinion about someone's guilt involving a crime without a conviction in court.
posted by krinklyfig at 3:25 PM on August 3, 2007
I remember YBMB from when I used to live in the Bay Area. As I recall, they used to sell snacks in the cheap-seats at A's games. I never bought any of their stuff, though. I always stuck to the $8 hot dogs.
Still, I'm dumbfounded as to how a food organization could become so violent. Don't these people know that the smell of freshly baked-bread is, like, I dunno, the Ghandi of scents?
posted by Avenger at 3:31 PM on August 3, 2007
Still, I'm dumbfounded as to how a food organization could become so violent. Don't these people know that the smell of freshly baked-bread is, like, I dunno, the Ghandi of scents?
posted by Avenger at 3:31 PM on August 3, 2007
Oh and aramaic, I don't know what you were getting at by bring up "Zionist conspiracy" upthread...
I assumed that aramaic was alluding to the Nation of Islam, and Louis Farrakahn's statements about Jews and Zionism and whatnot. While Bey's movement grew out of the Nation, following the death of Elijah Muhammad, it became a separate entity.
posted by rtha at 3:52 PM on August 3, 2007
I assumed that aramaic was alluding to the Nation of Islam, and Louis Farrakahn's statements about Jews and Zionism and whatnot. While Bey's movement grew out of the Nation, following the death of Elijah Muhammad, it became a separate entity.
posted by rtha at 3:52 PM on August 3, 2007
AHEM. Where did I ever say that "this is all one huge conspiracy"?
My point is that I'm not so quick to believe everything I read in the paper, and that I regard those who do as not only not too bright but as dangers to democracy. If someone can't understand what "innocent until proven guilty" means I hope you restrict your "opinions" to harmless fora like these, i.e. if you're ever called to jury duty I hope you get the flu or something.
And, to quote you Sticherbeat, "it just goes to show you that being right about some things doesn't mean you're right about other things." If you can't deduce what I'm getting at here then there's really no point in arguing with you.
posted by davy at 3:55 PM on August 3, 2007
My point is that I'm not so quick to believe everything I read in the paper, and that I regard those who do as not only not too bright but as dangers to democracy. If someone can't understand what "innocent until proven guilty" means I hope you restrict your "opinions" to harmless fora like these, i.e. if you're ever called to jury duty I hope you get the flu or something.
And, to quote you Sticherbeat, "it just goes to show you that being right about some things doesn't mean you're right about other things." If you can't deduce what I'm getting at here then there's really no point in arguing with you.
posted by davy at 3:55 PM on August 3, 2007
"Their slogan was, 'We only sell wheat bread. Death to whitey!'"
Oh, I see: he was Black, therefore all those Bad Things they say about him MUST be true.
posted by davy at 3:59 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
Oh, I see: he was Black, therefore all those Bad Things they say about him MUST be true.
posted by davy at 3:59 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
Sorry, SticherbeaSt. I looked that up on Google to see f you've named yourself after a mythical animal or something, a la "baphomet", and found nothing of the sort; I did however find this.
posted by davy at 4:04 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by davy at 4:04 PM on August 3, 2007
Pardon my triviality, but Your Black Muslim Bakery is an excellent name. If only it was next to No Pork On My Fork Coffee Shop...
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:05 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by The corpse in the library at 4:05 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
So ericb, again, how many of those charges was he CONVICTED of?
posted by davy at 4:06 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by davy at 4:06 PM on August 3, 2007
My point is that I'm not so quick to believe everything I read in the paper, and that I regard those who do as not only not too bright but as dangers to democracy. If someone can't understand what "innocent until proven guilty" means I hope you restrict your "opinions" to harmless fora like these, i.e. if you're ever called to jury duty I hope you get the flu or something.
This isn't a jury and we're not obligated to have each and every one of our opinions live up to the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard required to hand down a verdict in a criminal case. If this were a jury, then this entire conversation would be completely different, not to mention a shade less blue.
I can only speak for myself, but while I don't believe every single thing I read in the paper, there are enough sources in this thread to present a credibly unfavorable portrait. If another article surfaces refuting these allegations, then I'd love to read it, but I don't see why I need to be any more skeptical of these articles than I would be of any other article about anything ever. If no one was able to state any alleged fact, conclusion, or opinion in regular conversation without it having to be proven beyond any reasonable doubt, then all thought would stop.
I can't claim beyond a reasonable doubt that Bey and his organization are guilty of every single allegation put against them, but it sounds LIKELY that they are guilty of many ethical and legal infractions, as the alternative - that all of these divers allegations from different sources present a symphony of lies or are the result of mass confusion - is highly, highly, highly unlikely.
Oliver Cromwell was never found guilty in a court of law, but that doesn't mean his forces never murdered an Irishman.
posted by Sticherbeast at 4:06 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
This isn't a jury and we're not obligated to have each and every one of our opinions live up to the "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard required to hand down a verdict in a criminal case. If this were a jury, then this entire conversation would be completely different, not to mention a shade less blue.
I can only speak for myself, but while I don't believe every single thing I read in the paper, there are enough sources in this thread to present a credibly unfavorable portrait. If another article surfaces refuting these allegations, then I'd love to read it, but I don't see why I need to be any more skeptical of these articles than I would be of any other article about anything ever. If no one was able to state any alleged fact, conclusion, or opinion in regular conversation without it having to be proven beyond any reasonable doubt, then all thought would stop.
I can't claim beyond a reasonable doubt that Bey and his organization are guilty of every single allegation put against them, but it sounds LIKELY that they are guilty of many ethical and legal infractions, as the alternative - that all of these divers allegations from different sources present a symphony of lies or are the result of mass confusion - is highly, highly, highly unlikely.
Oliver Cromwell was never found guilty in a court of law, but that doesn't mean his forces never murdered an Irishman.
posted by Sticherbeast at 4:06 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
Sorry, SticherbeaSt. I looked that up on Google to see f you've named yourself after a mythical animal or something, a la "baphomet", and found nothing of the sort; I did however find this.
But are not farts the most beautiful and mythical animals of all?
Also, I apologize profusely for that movie.
posted by Sticherbeast at 4:08 PM on August 3, 2007
But are not farts the most beautiful and mythical animals of all?
Also, I apologize profusely for that movie.
posted by Sticherbeast at 4:08 PM on August 3, 2007
I looked "davy" up on Google to see in which language it means "troll", but I came up empty. I did find this though.
posted by Eekacat at 4:14 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by Eekacat at 4:14 PM on August 3, 2007
Thanks for the post, Salvia. I live a block from where Bailey was shot, so I've been following this story closely. It's nice to have a bunch of background info in one place.
Oh, I see: he was Black, therefore all those Bad Things they say about him MUST be true.
Oh, I see: all Yusef Bey's victims were black, therefore they must be lying.
For fuck's sake.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:22 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
Oh, I see: he was Black, therefore all those Bad Things they say about him MUST be true.
Oh, I see: all Yusef Bey's victims were black, therefore they must be lying.
For fuck's sake.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:22 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
Back in the lands of rumor: Someone at that neighborhood safety meeting said that Bey #1 had ideals to balance out the molesting but those competing to be his successor since his death have not had that same desire to uplift the community and are just in it for the power and money. (Disclaimer: statement not proven in a court of law.)
oneirodynia -- did you see the raid happen then?
posted by salvia at 4:27 PM on August 3, 2007
oneirodynia -- did you see the raid happen then?
posted by salvia at 4:27 PM on August 3, 2007
(By "ideals to balance out the molesting" I just mean, he had some good ideals related to the community, as well as some bad things. I don't actually think things "balance" like that.)
posted by salvia at 4:28 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by salvia at 4:28 PM on August 3, 2007
Oakland Tribune is reporting that a shotgun found at the raid this morning is linked to the Bailey murder. Not really all that surprising.
posted by otherwordlyglow at 4:29 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by otherwordlyglow at 4:29 PM on August 3, 2007
> Anyway, the principle is that the charges remain unproven until the accused is found guilty.
A line spoken by Thomas More in A Man for All Seasons comes to mind. "The world must construe according to its wits. This court must construe according to the law."
Both are true. The court of public opinion has a perfectly valid place in the world, and its standards are not the standards of a court of law--and it's not like you're going to shut it down, anyway. Consider, for example, the number of people here who have the current President impeached and convicted of high crimes and misdemeanors in their minds, though a trial in the appropriate venue has not even begun, let alone ended in a verdict. Who here is ready to trade in his present opinion of GWB in favor of "Now now, he hasn't been given a fair trial"? Don't all speak at once. Those will be the folks who can have no objection to folks' convicting the dude in the fpp in their minds.
posted by jfuller at 4:32 PM on August 3, 2007
A line spoken by Thomas More in A Man for All Seasons comes to mind. "The world must construe according to its wits. This court must construe according to the law."
Both are true. The court of public opinion has a perfectly valid place in the world, and its standards are not the standards of a court of law--and it's not like you're going to shut it down, anyway. Consider, for example, the number of people here who have the current President impeached and convicted of high crimes and misdemeanors in their minds, though a trial in the appropriate venue has not even begun, let alone ended in a verdict. Who here is ready to trade in his present opinion of GWB in favor of "Now now, he hasn't been given a fair trial"? Don't all speak at once. Those will be the folks who can have no objection to folks' convicting the dude in the fpp in their minds.
posted by jfuller at 4:32 PM on August 3, 2007
No, just walked by a closed Black Muslim Bakery on the way to the train this morning, which was actually kind of sad. Then again, the crime scene with all of the Oakland Post's employees crying outside yesterday was also incredibly sad. Oakland can be a goddamned sad place.
posted by oneirodynia at 4:43 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by oneirodynia at 4:43 PM on August 3, 2007
So ericb, again, how many of those charges was he CONVICTED of?
Why you asking me? Read the articles. From what I read "none," since he died and his court hearing(s) could/would never come to a legal conclusion.
posted by ericb at 4:47 PM on August 3, 2007
Why you asking me? Read the articles. From what I read "none," since he died and his court hearing(s) could/would never come to a legal conclusion.
posted by ericb at 4:47 PM on August 3, 2007
Oh man, now where am I gonna get my Kill Whitey Krullers??
posted by jonmc at 4:47 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by jonmc at 4:47 PM on August 3, 2007
Oakland Tribune is reporting that a shotgun found at the raid this morning is linked to the Bailey murder. Not really all that surprising.
Also...
MSNBC: "Police raid bakery investigated by slain editor -- operation reportedly connected to Oakland killing."
NBC11 | KNTV: Attorney: Slain Journalist's Article To Implicate Black Muslim Bakery
Also...
MSNBC: "Police raid bakery investigated by slain editor -- operation reportedly connected to Oakland killing."
NBC11 | KNTV: Attorney: Slain Journalist's Article To Implicate Black Muslim Bakery
"The attorney for Oakland Post editor Paul Cobb told NBC11 that slain journalist Chauncey Bailey was working on an article that would have criminally implicated Your Black Muslim Bakery, which was raided by SWAT teams Friday morning.posted by ericb at 4:54 PM on August 3, 2007
Attorney Walter Riley told NBC11's Jodi Hernandez that Bailey had been working for months on an article about the bakery. Riley said Cobb pulled the article and told Bailey he needed to get more information.
...Bailey, who recently was promoted to be editor of the Oakland Post, was fatally shot in downtown Oakland just before 7:30 a.m. Thursday in what appeared to be a targeted shooting, according to Oakland police spokesman Roland Holmgren.
...Police told Hernandez that investigators have evidence to link the bakery raid to the slaying, but would not say what that evidence was."
While looking to see how old Yusef Bey was when the alleged molestation took place, I came across this piece which brings up the defense that Bey was carrying on Yoruban practices of multiple marriages and, yes, with young women, as is the African custom. He did this openly and while many Western sensibilities are offended, it does seem that the 21 year lapse between the offense and the charge would lead credence to other factors--perhaps including police pressure (I can speculate, too)--were involved.
Let me make clear that I still think that since he lived in Oakland and not Ougadougou, Bey is subject to US laws, just as I think that the old-order LDS compounds are afoul of the law, and I also hold no quarter with Elijah Muhammad, who I think did more damage to Islam than George Bush will ever be able to do.
But I also grew up in the police state of Chicago Illinois in the 60s and witnessed the lying, instigating, and general fomenting of unrest by the repressive state agencies whenever (it seemed) more than three African Americans gathered together to make a difference in their own community.
I don't think it makes any damn difference in today's story about the innocence or guilt of Yusef Bey, since he's been dead awhile, I doubt if he had a direct hand in these recent actions. But given that people in his family and his hand picked successor have also been assassinated, my guess is there's plenty of blame to go around in the East Bay community.
I'm about as irreligious as one can get, but I believe nothing is served by these LOLZ-Islam accusations.
posted by beelzbubba at 5:00 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
Let me make clear that I still think that since he lived in Oakland and not Ougadougou, Bey is subject to US laws, just as I think that the old-order LDS compounds are afoul of the law, and I also hold no quarter with Elijah Muhammad, who I think did more damage to Islam than George Bush will ever be able to do.
But I also grew up in the police state of Chicago Illinois in the 60s and witnessed the lying, instigating, and general fomenting of unrest by the repressive state agencies whenever (it seemed) more than three African Americans gathered together to make a difference in their own community.
I don't think it makes any damn difference in today's story about the innocence or guilt of Yusef Bey, since he's been dead awhile, I doubt if he had a direct hand in these recent actions. But given that people in his family and his hand picked successor have also been assassinated, my guess is there's plenty of blame to go around in the East Bay community.
I'm about as irreligious as one can get, but I believe nothing is served by these LOLZ-Islam accusations.
posted by beelzbubba at 5:00 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
"ideals to balance out the molesting" would make a great campaign slogan for just about anyone in '08.
posted by drjimmy11 at 5:05 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by drjimmy11 at 5:05 PM on August 3, 2007
I was going to sign up for an alternative account named "Goliath" and drop the $5 just so I could post "What's the matter, Davy?"
Sermon on the Mountain Dew
posted by ericb at 5:15 PM on August 3, 2007
Sermon on the Mountain Dew
Tommy: "What just happened here?"We'll never know if Tommy and Davy truly got "hosed," since such "hosement" was only "alleged" and never settled in a court of law. Reason? No survivors from Davy & Goliath were left to testify in "Davy's Court." The clay used for that particular advertisement was recycled to reproduce Gumby and Pokey's Robot Rumpus.
Davy: "We got hosed, Tommy. We got hosed."
Goliath: "Oh, Davy."
posted by ericb at 5:15 PM on August 3, 2007
oneirodynia, sad, yeah. And specifically, did you know about this homicide? (60th & Herzog.) Apparently related to the BMB [find "Odell Roberson"].
I was just reading the Chron article about Bailey, who I hadn't heard of before. What a tragedy.
posted by salvia at 5:24 PM on August 3, 2007
I was just reading the Chron article about Bailey, who I hadn't heard of before. What a tragedy.
posted by salvia at 5:24 PM on August 3, 2007
I believe nothing is served by these LOLZ-Islam accusations.
Which LOLZ-Islam accusations are these? I ask because it seems to be a recent trend to drop into a thread and accuse posters of LOL- Something-or-other, whether it actually exists or not. Perhaps whatever you're referring to has been deleted already, but I don't see anyone here accusing Bey of being a Bad Man Because He Is Islamic.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:30 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
Which LOLZ-Islam accusations are these? I ask because it seems to be a recent trend to drop into a thread and accuse posters of LOL- Something-or-other, whether it actually exists or not. Perhaps whatever you're referring to has been deleted already, but I don't see anyone here accusing Bey of being a Bad Man Because He Is Islamic.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:30 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
Salvia- I hadn't heard about that particular murder, but it certainly ties in with the fact that the BMB has spent significant time over the past several years preying on other Blacks and Muslims in Oakland.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:38 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by oneirodynia at 5:38 PM on August 3, 2007
the defense that Bey was carrying on Yoruban practices of multiple marriages and, yes, with young women, as is the African custom.
The young women themselves took Bey to court. So apparently they were not consulted about whether or not they wanted to participate in this "African Custom".
posted by oneirodynia at 5:50 PM on August 3, 2007
The young women themselves took Bey to court. So apparently they were not consulted about whether or not they wanted to participate in this "African Custom".
posted by oneirodynia at 5:50 PM on August 3, 2007
About 25 years ago, I lived a few blocks from the bakery and bought cookies there for colloquia at UC Berkeley. I haven't lived there since '84, so I hadn't heard a word of the troubles. Naturally, when I heard this story on NPR today it freaked me out. It was kind of like finding out that Toms of Maine was linked to al Qaeda.
posted by lukemeister at 5:55 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by lukemeister at 5:55 PM on August 3, 2007
Metafilter: ideals to balance out the molesting
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 5:59 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by M.C. Lo-Carb! at 5:59 PM on August 3, 2007
I really wish I understood more about Oakland's political history. It sounds like a whole bunch of political leaders gave support to these guys for a long time. To me, part of what's interesting about the bust is that they could even do it.
If the district attorney's allegations are true, how could Yusuf Bey have presided over a regime of such brutality and fraud for so long? How could so many men and women have meekly accepted their places in such an iron hierarchy? Tarika Lewis still remembers what brought her into Bey's orbit.
"I don't say everybody's lost, but the average black person wants to have something they can call their own," she says. "Oakland had a black downtown ... When that economic base was systematically removed, that did away with those businesses. This is the key. Because what happened after that, crime and unemployment went up, the lack of housing went up. The loss of that economic base was monumental. We're still feeling that effect, and it's five generations deep.
"So when someone stands up in the community and starts a business that's employing people, when he tries to do what he preaches, and has the appearance of clean living, when he's an alternative to what the media's projecting -- with the high infant mortality rate, the high crime and drugs, and mortality of young black men -- people start listening to that."
The tragedy, Lewis suggests, is that people will still cling to the promise of Yusuf Bey long after they've seen his real face.
Whereas Chauncey Bailey really was a heroic journalist standing up against racism, and he got killed by this group of pretenders.
Or maybe they really were half good back in the day. An interesting bit about Chauncey Bailey and Yusuf Bey in this article.
posted by salvia at 6:06 PM on August 3, 2007 [2 favorites]
If the district attorney's allegations are true, how could Yusuf Bey have presided over a regime of such brutality and fraud for so long? How could so many men and women have meekly accepted their places in such an iron hierarchy? Tarika Lewis still remembers what brought her into Bey's orbit.
"I don't say everybody's lost, but the average black person wants to have something they can call their own," she says. "Oakland had a black downtown ... When that economic base was systematically removed, that did away with those businesses. This is the key. Because what happened after that, crime and unemployment went up, the lack of housing went up. The loss of that economic base was monumental. We're still feeling that effect, and it's five generations deep.
"So when someone stands up in the community and starts a business that's employing people, when he tries to do what he preaches, and has the appearance of clean living, when he's an alternative to what the media's projecting -- with the high infant mortality rate, the high crime and drugs, and mortality of young black men -- people start listening to that."
The tragedy, Lewis suggests, is that people will still cling to the promise of Yusuf Bey long after they've seen his real face.
Whereas Chauncey Bailey really was a heroic journalist standing up against racism, and he got killed by this group of pretenders.
Or maybe they really were half good back in the day. An interesting bit about Chauncey Bailey and Yusuf Bey in this article.
posted by salvia at 6:06 PM on August 3, 2007 [2 favorites]
salvia - An interesting bit indeed. Do you know what led Bailey to change his mind?
posted by lukemeister at 6:41 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by lukemeister at 6:41 PM on August 3, 2007
Of course, there are other places to eat besides YBMB and McDonalds, but as a local, I've always felt that because they're black, the Black Muslims are held to a stricter standard than corporate chains.
The very act of voluntarily giving your patronage, your hard-earned dollars to an organization that supports your oppression kind of suggests the opposite. It makes me think that people have been excusing away really fucked-up behavior because they're black.
posted by jason's_planet at 6:41 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
The very act of voluntarily giving your patronage, your hard-earned dollars to an organization that supports your oppression kind of suggests the opposite. It makes me think that people have been excusing away really fucked-up behavior because they're black.
posted by jason's_planet at 6:41 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
The value of a DNA result is not proven in court until the case is proven in court.
Yes, since courts are infallible, and DNA tests are hit or miss.
posted by SweetJesus at 7:18 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
Yes, since courts are infallible, and DNA tests are hit or miss.
posted by SweetJesus at 7:18 PM on August 3, 2007 [1 favorite]
Alright, I might be mistaken this time.
But I'm not ashamed to be mistaken while defending American's few remaining freedoms and rights. Someday y'all'll be glad there once was a phenomenon called "knee-jerk libertarians" while you're chained in your cubicles. So there. NYAAH.
I'm also glad they named what's essentially a lunar line of volcanic pecker tracks after me. My mommy told me I was special, once.
posted by davy at 7:32 PM on August 3, 2007
But I'm not ashamed to be mistaken while defending American's few remaining freedoms and rights. Someday y'all'll be glad there once was a phenomenon called "knee-jerk libertarians" while you're chained in your cubicles. So there. NYAAH.
I'm also glad they named what's essentially a lunar line of volcanic pecker tracks after me. My mommy told me I was special, once.
posted by davy at 7:32 PM on August 3, 2007
lukemeister, no idea. Hopefully it will come to light. In the historical news stories linked above, Bailey comes up, but there's nothing obvious. Other stories say he was working on a story about their bankruptcy filing. Supposedly, the last reporter killed in the line of duty in the United States was Don Bolles in 1976.
posted by salvia at 7:43 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by salvia at 7:43 PM on August 3, 2007
I wasn't even aware I had a Black Muslim bakery. Why am I always the last one to know about these things?
posted by ZachsMind at 7:52 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by ZachsMind at 7:52 PM on August 3, 2007
"The concept of a 'Black Muslim' is anathema to Islam."
Malcolm X eventually agreed. That's why Farrakhan had him shot, so the unproven rumor goes.
posted by davy at 7:56 PM on August 3, 2007
Malcolm X eventually agreed. That's why Farrakhan had him shot, so the unproven rumor goes.
posted by davy at 7:56 PM on August 3, 2007
Anyhow, I've been reading about another kind of Muslim. Does anyone know of a pro-Abassid rebuttal? They've gotten a lot of bad press in the past 1257 years.
posted by davy at 8:21 PM on August 3, 2007
posted by davy at 8:21 PM on August 3, 2007
Oh man, now where am I gonna get my Kill Whitey Krullers??
I wish I could just ignore this bullshit remark, but it's too frustrating to let it drop. This sentiment is exactly why I'm not going to jump on some symplistic bandwagon about the Oakland Black Muslims.
Do you know anything about their politics or agenda? Or even what they've been accused of here, which is, in fact, killing black people? If anything, the Bay Area wing of the Black Muslims essentially seem to take a stance of ignore whitey. Who fucking cares about whitey? It's an organization focused on self determination and run by and for black people. They don't care about you. Sorry to break the news.
Rant over.
Salvia: as to Oakland history, I can make a couple recommendations:
Chris Rhomberg's No There There does a nice (if somewhat slow and dry) job of describing the class and racial history of Oakland up through the seventies or so by focusing on three distinct social movements here: the rise of the KKK (which was briefly quite popular here), post-war labor struggles and the 1946 Oakland general strike, and the rise of the Black Panthers (and subsequent mainstreaming of Black politicians).
Our current mayor Ron Dellums is a pretty good example of the type of politician who in the 60s and 70s supported fairly radical activists and although still 'progressive' is now a part of the city's political machinery. For example, back in the day he actually served as a negotiator between the Black Panther Party and the small liquor stores they were picketing (in support of their demand that the stores 'donate' food or money to Panther social programs). I haven't read Dellums' memoir, Lying Down With Lions, but I bet that would be a worth checking out.
For more on the Panthers and radical Black activists of the 70s, you can check out the very long hit piece Shadow of the Panther (extremely biased in the anti-Panther direction, so not a good history of the Panthers, but does have more about Oakland politics than most Panther memoirs).
If you're as obsesive as I am about Oakland, someone put up a pretty amazingly thorough list of Oakland books on Wikipedia which could probably keep you busy for the next 10 years or so.
Anyhow, thanks for the post.
posted by serazin at 9:33 PM on August 3, 2007 [7 favorites]
I wish I could just ignore this bullshit remark, but it's too frustrating to let it drop. This sentiment is exactly why I'm not going to jump on some symplistic bandwagon about the Oakland Black Muslims.
Do you know anything about their politics or agenda? Or even what they've been accused of here, which is, in fact, killing black people? If anything, the Bay Area wing of the Black Muslims essentially seem to take a stance of ignore whitey. Who fucking cares about whitey? It's an organization focused on self determination and run by and for black people. They don't care about you. Sorry to break the news.
Rant over.
Salvia: as to Oakland history, I can make a couple recommendations:
Chris Rhomberg's No There There does a nice (if somewhat slow and dry) job of describing the class and racial history of Oakland up through the seventies or so by focusing on three distinct social movements here: the rise of the KKK (which was briefly quite popular here), post-war labor struggles and the 1946 Oakland general strike, and the rise of the Black Panthers (and subsequent mainstreaming of Black politicians).
Our current mayor Ron Dellums is a pretty good example of the type of politician who in the 60s and 70s supported fairly radical activists and although still 'progressive' is now a part of the city's political machinery. For example, back in the day he actually served as a negotiator between the Black Panther Party and the small liquor stores they were picketing (in support of their demand that the stores 'donate' food or money to Panther social programs). I haven't read Dellums' memoir, Lying Down With Lions, but I bet that would be a worth checking out.
For more on the Panthers and radical Black activists of the 70s, you can check out the very long hit piece Shadow of the Panther (extremely biased in the anti-Panther direction, so not a good history of the Panthers, but does have more about Oakland politics than most Panther memoirs).
If you're as obsesive as I am about Oakland, someone put up a pretty amazingly thorough list of Oakland books on Wikipedia which could probably keep you busy for the next 10 years or so.
Anyhow, thanks for the post.
posted by serazin at 9:33 PM on August 3, 2007 [7 favorites]
The concept of a "Black Muslim" is anathema to Islam.
The idea of a Muslim bakery is anathema to Islam. Except for, maybe, lard-based pie crusts and croissants stuffed with ham (etc), almost all baked goods are halal- in fact, the concept of "halal baked goods" is as absurd as "calorie-free water"; it's just off the radar of most Muslims and you'll see Muslims shopping at just about any bakery. They don't seek out Muslim ones because there's no need to. Now, this "Muslim bakery doesn't even contend anything about its products being halal or eschewing swine-based ingredients- it makes as much sense as calling someplace a "Christian bakery."
posted by ethnomethodologist at 10:41 PM on August 3, 2007
The idea of a Muslim bakery is anathema to Islam. Except for, maybe, lard-based pie crusts and croissants stuffed with ham (etc), almost all baked goods are halal- in fact, the concept of "halal baked goods" is as absurd as "calorie-free water"; it's just off the radar of most Muslims and you'll see Muslims shopping at just about any bakery. They don't seek out Muslim ones because there's no need to. Now, this "Muslim bakery doesn't even contend anything about its products being halal or eschewing swine-based ingredients- it makes as much sense as calling someplace a "Christian bakery."
posted by ethnomethodologist at 10:41 PM on August 3, 2007
Do you know anything about their politics or agenda?
No - unfortunately when the evil scientist Yakub created my white devil ancestors in a magical ripped-from-a-comic-book genesplicing ceremony, he forgot to install in us the comprehension-chip for the NOI agenda.
posted by kid ichorous at 12:32 AM on August 4, 2007
No - unfortunately when the evil scientist Yakub created my white devil ancestors in a magical ripped-from-a-comic-book genesplicing ceremony, he forgot to install in us the comprehension-chip for the NOI agenda.
posted by kid ichorous at 12:32 AM on August 4, 2007
kid ichorous-
I know about Yakub. You're getting your Black Muslims confused (the Oakland group is not Nation of Islam), and belief in an evil scientist does not equal interest in "Killing Whitey".
posted by serazin at 1:54 AM on August 4, 2007
I know about Yakub. You're getting your Black Muslims confused (the Oakland group is not Nation of Islam), and belief in an evil scientist does not equal interest in "Killing Whitey".
posted by serazin at 1:54 AM on August 4, 2007
Serazin, I'd thought it was because of this,
which claims that the founder was a disciple of Elijah Mohammed, and that mob goons from the bakery sported the trademark bow-tie. I'll concede to you that Black Nationalism and the NOI can be different things, in the same way (I suppose) that White Nationalism and Nazism can be different, but damn it, Stormfront does seem rather Aryan and Yusuf Bey does seem rather NOI. You seem to know an awful lot about the YBMB, however, so maybe the particulars diverge. In which case - why don't you write a Wikipedia article?
posted by kid ichorous at 8:32 AM on August 4, 2007
which claims that the founder was a disciple of Elijah Mohammed, and that mob goons from the bakery sported the trademark bow-tie. I'll concede to you that Black Nationalism and the NOI can be different things, in the same way (I suppose) that White Nationalism and Nazism can be different, but damn it, Stormfront does seem rather Aryan and Yusuf Bey does seem rather NOI. You seem to know an awful lot about the YBMB, however, so maybe the particulars diverge. In which case - why don't you write a Wikipedia article?
posted by kid ichorous at 8:32 AM on August 4, 2007
Also, belief in a eugenic mythology that equates white people with nothing less than a biological weapon, an evil-by-design breed on parallel with Tolkien's orcs, is classic race war talk, no different from a Blood Libel. I've read enough of Amiri Baraka's poetry to know that "Killing Whitey" is at the least an unsurprising corollary to the movement's beliefs.
posted by kid ichorous at 8:50 AM on August 4, 2007 [1 favorite]
posted by kid ichorous at 8:50 AM on August 4, 2007 [1 favorite]
I'll concede to you that Black Nationalism and the NOI can be different things, in the same way (I suppose) that White Nationalism and Nazism can be differentLook. I'm not a fan of black nationalism, which seems to me to be pretty reactionary and enamored of capitalism in a lot of ways. (At least, that's my understanding of it, as someone who isn't especially knowledgeable about it at all.) But to equate black nationalism and white nationalism seems profoundly fucked up to me. White nationalism is when privileged people try to use their power to maintain their privileged position in society. Black nationalism is when disadvantaged people decide that they aren't going to get anything worth having from mainstream society and that they will have to carve out their own autonomous space in which they can live with dignity. The former attempts to uphold a fundamentally white-supremacist power structure, and the latter attempts to figure out a way to live outside of that white-supremacist power structure. To equate them is to basically act as if structural racism doesn't matter. And it does, in all sorts of profound ways.
posted by craichead at 10:41 AM on August 4, 2007
I believe nothing is served by these LOLZ-Islam accusations.
Which LOLZ-Islam accusations are these? I ask because it seems to be a recent trend to drop into a thread and accuse posters of LOL- Something-or-other, whether it actually exists or not. Perhaps whatever you're referring to has been deleted already, but I don't see anyone here accusing Bey of being a Bad Man Because He Is Islamic.
Rereading the entire thread, I believe there have been posts deleted, but in any case, I am sure I overreacted in that "accusations" is the wrong word. But while some feeble attempts at humor such as: I didn't know "I" had a black muslim bakery, and variants and responses thereto can easily be overlooked, I found that sevearl of fandango_matt's responses to be apparently to mock and inappropriate. I'll flag those & move on. One by jonmc, too, I person I usually have no problem with.
I think that serazin put it better than I can hope to in several posts above. Perhaps I react strongly because my neighbor for 20 years now is a Muslim who is African American and who I would and have trusted my life and my children's life to, and who has had FBI and ATF agents at his door (and mine--and yes they showed me the badges) for what amounts to harassment and his "crime" was similar to the types of things that brings the power out time after time--black men trying to start businesses in their communities with their own financing.
Call me a suspicious retrograde commie, I won't argue too much, I'm probably as much of a knee-jerk as Davy, but I take the evil-doer characterizations by the popular press with a huge grain of NaCl. In the time between my posts I've read enough to understand that Yusuf Bey was as bad as they come, but yes, also accomplished a lot of good. But people with that fundamentalist background always scare the shit out of me--for the lives of the people who follow them unquestioningly--whether the leader is Bey or Farrakhan, Kouresh, Swaggart, the Stormfront, or Pat Robertson. Yes, there are degrees, of course.
I could do without the idiocy though. Most of the thread has been well reasoned and well argued.
posted by beelzbubba at 10:44 AM on August 4, 2007 [1 favorite]
craichead: White nationalism is when privileged people try to use their power to maintain their privileged position in society. Black nationalism is when disadvantaged people decide that they aren't going to get anything worth having from mainstream society and that they will have to carve out their own autonomous space in which they can live with dignity.
No offense, Craichead, but that's not exactly reality, that's wishful thinking born of American Studies 101. Despite any Peggy-McIntosh nostrums about Invisible Privilege, most of the poor people in this country are white, and most of the people who partake in these stupid racial crusades are poor, politically disenfranchised and lacking education, and laboring under a persecution complex. It's hard to acknowledge this if you live in a prosperous city like San Francisco or Cambridge, but don't assume that whites everywhere share in that lifestyle. The disparity in educational and economic resources available to a white man born in trailer-park Kansas or South Carolina and a black man born in Boston, NY, or San Fran is nontrivial, and class disparity has historically been the wellspring of racist sentiments.
Simply put, there aren't many white-power enclaves in Cambridge MA because there aren't many poor, uneducated whites here. If the Left would stop marginalizing these people as Rednecks (essentially, White Niggers), and insisting on invisible privileges that clash with their most visible poverty, maybe we'd see some of those red states turn blue.
posted by kid ichorous at 11:12 AM on August 4, 2007 [6 favorites]
No offense, Craichead, but that's not exactly reality, that's wishful thinking born of American Studies 101. Despite any Peggy-McIntosh nostrums about Invisible Privilege, most of the poor people in this country are white, and most of the people who partake in these stupid racial crusades are poor, politically disenfranchised and lacking education, and laboring under a persecution complex. It's hard to acknowledge this if you live in a prosperous city like San Francisco or Cambridge, but don't assume that whites everywhere share in that lifestyle. The disparity in educational and economic resources available to a white man born in trailer-park Kansas or South Carolina and a black man born in Boston, NY, or San Fran is nontrivial, and class disparity has historically been the wellspring of racist sentiments.
Simply put, there aren't many white-power enclaves in Cambridge MA because there aren't many poor, uneducated whites here. If the Left would stop marginalizing these people as Rednecks (essentially, White Niggers), and insisting on invisible privileges that clash with their most visible poverty, maybe we'd see some of those red states turn blue.
posted by kid ichorous at 11:12 AM on August 4, 2007 [6 favorites]
"I take the evil-doer characterizations by the popular press with a huge grain of NaCl."
This is what's needed in anyone who might serve on a jury -- that is to say any American citizen and voter. If one is incapable of serving honorably on a jury how can one pretend to be able to choose a President?
The requirements are the same whether you're called upon to decide whether quonsar is really a mass murderer or if Bugs Bunny should be mayor.
Thus I've been considering the proposition that what democracy there still is in the U.S.A. is wasted on the American people.
posted by davy at 11:15 AM on August 4, 2007
This is what's needed in anyone who might serve on a jury -- that is to say any American citizen and voter. If one is incapable of serving honorably on a jury how can one pretend to be able to choose a President?
The requirements are the same whether you're called upon to decide whether quonsar is really a mass murderer or if Bugs Bunny should be mayor.
Thus I've been considering the proposition that what democracy there still is in the U.S.A. is wasted on the American people.
posted by davy at 11:15 AM on August 4, 2007
(I'm not pretending my output is any more systematically logical than Nietzsche's, though I'm sure if anyone wants to apply the same overthinking to my output as Nietzsche Scholars do to Freddy's they might be able to trace out the connections and implications. Now get thee to Rio and fetch me a plate o' beans.)
posted by davy at 11:18 AM on August 4, 2007
posted by davy at 11:18 AM on August 4, 2007
No, I think it's not ok to mock Muslims because someone who can be characterized as sharing or even promoting that faith--though it be a corruption of it--has done reprehensible things.
I think it's not ok to perpetrate a systematic ostracizing of Muslims because they dress differently or worship differently or eat differently.
Look, if you want to say that YBMB was run by thugs, I think there's enough evidence to support that.
But taking the horrible events here as an opportunity to make mean spirited jokes about Muslims is offensive to me. Whether or not my neighborhood has a masjid.
posted by beelzbubba at 1:10 PM on August 4, 2007
I think it's not ok to perpetrate a systematic ostracizing of Muslims because they dress differently or worship differently or eat differently.
Look, if you want to say that YBMB was run by thugs, I think there's enough evidence to support that.
But taking the horrible events here as an opportunity to make mean spirited jokes about Muslims is offensive to me. Whether or not my neighborhood has a masjid.
posted by beelzbubba at 1:10 PM on August 4, 2007
As far as mocking Yusuf Bey, I don't think I saw you or anyone else specifically mock him or his followers. The accusations made against him were because of the things he did, not because of his race or his religion. Because no one mocked him directly, I didn't ask--what purpose is served mocking a dead man?
But more to the point--this specific remark: "I ARE SERIOUS MUSLIM. THIS IS SERIOUS COOKIE. " is what I reacted to. I see absolutely no way that this illuminates this discussion. The plays-on-words of the bakery's name--off topic perhaps, but not offensive.
Get it?
posted by beelzbubba at 1:20 PM on August 4, 2007
But more to the point--this specific remark: "I ARE SERIOUS MUSLIM. THIS IS SERIOUS COOKIE. " is what I reacted to. I see absolutely no way that this illuminates this discussion. The plays-on-words of the bakery's name--off topic perhaps, but not offensive.
Get it?
posted by beelzbubba at 1:20 PM on August 4, 2007
the Oakland group is not Nation of Islam...
Serazin- no, not officially, but they have very strong ties:
"Bey discovered the Nation of Islam in 1964, and in 1971 he moved his Santa Barbara bakery to the East Bay, having named it Your Black Muslim Bakery on the personal recommendation of Nation of Islam leader Elijah Muhammad." (from aspo's East Bay Express Link).
When Bey was running for Mayor of Oakland, he invited Khalid Mohammed to speak at his rally:
More than 1,600 people packed the Calvin Simmons Theater to hear Muhammad, and he didn't disappoint. "You Jews make me sick, always talking about the Holocaust!" he thundered at the cheering crowd. According to press accounts, he turned to the Castlemont controversy and said, "You kicked our babies out on the street. ... Let's kill some white folks in a movie for a change. We got to see some white folks die sometime." And he diagnosed the problem in South Africa, which was still emerging from apartheid, as "the old no-good, hook-nosed Jews sucking our blood."
Because of Muhammad's campaign appearance, and Bey's pointed observation on True Solutions that homosexuals are executed in the Middle East, many Bay Area grocery stores refused to stock his bakery products, forcing him to lay off several employees.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:49 PM on August 4, 2007
Serazin- no, not officially, but they have very strong ties:
"Bey discovered the Nation of Islam in 1964, and in 1971 he moved his Santa Barbara bakery to the East Bay, having named it Your Black Muslim Bakery on the personal recommendation of Nation of Islam leader Elijah Muhammad." (from aspo's East Bay Express Link).
When Bey was running for Mayor of Oakland, he invited Khalid Mohammed to speak at his rally:
More than 1,600 people packed the Calvin Simmons Theater to hear Muhammad, and he didn't disappoint. "You Jews make me sick, always talking about the Holocaust!" he thundered at the cheering crowd. According to press accounts, he turned to the Castlemont controversy and said, "You kicked our babies out on the street. ... Let's kill some white folks in a movie for a change. We got to see some white folks die sometime." And he diagnosed the problem in South Africa, which was still emerging from apartheid, as "the old no-good, hook-nosed Jews sucking our blood."
Because of Muhammad's campaign appearance, and Bey's pointed observation on True Solutions that homosexuals are executed in the Middle East, many Bay Area grocery stores refused to stock his bakery products, forcing him to lay off several employees.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:49 PM on August 4, 2007
CNN is saying that a handyman from that bakery killed the reporter?
posted by amberglow at 2:24 PM on August 4, 2007
posted by amberglow at 2:24 PM on August 4, 2007
Oh yeah, they're saying he confessed. I wonder if he confessed to killing Odell Roberson as well.
posted by salvia at 2:41 PM on August 4, 2007
posted by salvia at 2:41 PM on August 4, 2007
serazin, thanks. I'm excited to start reading some of those.
CNN is saying that a handyman from that bakery killed the reporter?
The article says the Bey family will hold a press conference 3 pm Monday and are distancing themselves from Yusuf Bey IV. I keep thinking about how he's only 23.
posted by salvia at 3:21 PM on August 4, 2007
CNN is saying that a handyman from that bakery killed the reporter?
The article says the Bey family will hold a press conference 3 pm Monday and are distancing themselves from Yusuf Bey IV. I keep thinking about how he's only 23.
posted by salvia at 3:21 PM on August 4, 2007
No offense, Craichead, but that's not exactly reality, that's wishful thinking born of American Studies 101. Despite any Peggy-McIntosh nostrums about Invisible Privilege, most of the poor people in this country are white, and most of the people who partake in these stupid racial crusades are poor, politically disenfranchised and lacking education, and laboring under a persecution complex. It's hard to acknowledge this if you live in a prosperous city like San Francisco or Cambridge, but don't assume that whites everywhere share in that lifestyle. The disparity in educational and economic resources available to a white man born in trailer-park Kansas or South Carolina and a black man born in Boston, NY, or San Fran is nontrivial, and class disparity has historically been the wellspring of racist sentiments.This is silly. By every single measure, black people in America are poorer than white people. They're more likely to be poor. (25% of black people and 8.3% of white people were poor in 2005, according to the census bureau.) Once poor, they're more likely to stay that way. Black people are more likely to be extremely poor than white people, which is to say to have incomes under 50% of the poverty level. (4.4% of white people are in the "extremely poor" category, whereas 11.5% of black people are.) Non-poor black people have, on average, less wealth and are therefore more vulnerable to becoming poor if they lose their jobs, become sick, etc. Non-poor black people are much more likely than non-poor white people to live in close proximity to poor people and to have poor friends and relatives, and therefore to be affected by the problems caused by poverty. It is true that there are more poor white people than poor black people in America, because there are many more white people than black people in America. But that does not offset the existence of structural racism or of the economic disparities that it causes.
Furthermore, I'd love to see some evidence for your contention that white supremacists tend to be poor white people. My sense is that they actually tend to be members of the downwardly-mobile solid working class. They're people who were raised to believe that they were entitled to a certain standard of living, if they worked hard and played by the rules, and when they see that slipping away they blame minorities and immigrants, rather than the economic forces that are really screwing up their lives. They believe they are entitled to a white American standard of living, and they believe they're being reduced to the level of a Mexican or a black person. (Although that's not the word they'd typically use.) This entire way of thinking is predicated on the idea that they are entitled to be better off than people of color, which makes people of color their go-to scapegoats when their economic safety net is ripped out from under them. At least, my grandmother's next-door neighbors ended up being pretty hard-core David Duke supporters, and that was their mentality. They were not poor: they owned a modest house in a working-class neighborhood, and they maintained a reasonable standard of living. What they were was insecure, which is largely the state of the working class, white and otherwise, these days.
And on the other hand, I don't think that black nationalists are exclusively the poorest of the poor. Certainly, the NOI does a lot of prison outreach and such, but a lot of black nationalists come from lower-middle-class backgrounds, rather than poor ones. That was true of Marcus Garvey, the father of black nationalism, and it's been true of a lot of black nationalists ever since. I have a cousin who was in the Panthers in the '60s, and he was college-educated. He turned to the Panthers because he came to believe that even though he had played by every conceivable rule, he was still going to be thwarted by racism. Black nationalism has some appeal to very poor people, but its emphasis on self-help and entrepreneurialism also appeals to upwardly-aspiring lower-middle class people, which is to say people from the same class from which many white small-business-owners come.
Finally, I don't and never have lived in a "prosperous city" like San Francisco or Cambridge. But nice try.
posted by craichead at 5:21 PM on August 4, 2007 [3 favorites]
I see the appeal of black separatism, but cutting oneself from society, even an oppressive society, has counterproductive consequences. While YBMB may represent some of the worst aspects thereof, and while it may be an unkind comparison to make, it's still fair to point out that the movement's reputation has soured among the people who actually wind up having to live next to them, and that, without the charismatic leader to tie them together, those deep within the movement face troubles should they wish to leave the community or to seek growth elsewhere. In one of the newspaper articles discussing the fallout from the raid on YBMB, you see people from the neighborhood opining that many of the bakery's members have never had to pay rent or PG&E or regularly go shopping for food before; I'm sure they'll eventually do fine, but you're looking at a group of people who were NOT empowered by the group, but who were simply taken care for by a group which sought to CONTROL them. That this began with good intentions, in reaction to a racist, controlling society in general, just makes the story sadder.
I don't have the link on me, and my Google-fu is failing me, but I read an article recently discussing Islam in the African-American community, and the author pointed out that many of those who join the NOI tend to leave for Sunni Islam. You go in to clear your head, and then you join a larger community.
As it stands currently, the NOI represents but a minority of the African-American Muslim community, and that's important to note - too many hagiographies of the organization pretend that this is the face of black Islam, or that the NOI is the major force giving self-direction to poor African-Americans. This is not true at all, despite what the NOI might wish to believe.
There's no reason to lionize or demonize the organization and its splinter groups. They do both good and harm for their communities, and I fully accept the right of anyone to associate with whomever they please, especially if society at large is treating them like garbage.But there are a solid number of reasons why it - and black separatism in general - isn't more popular, and while I thoroughly respect the right of an adult to segregate himself, trapping children in that mindset is very dangerous. Without knowing it, you could be weakening them to a great degree.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:15 PM on August 4, 2007
I don't have the link on me, and my Google-fu is failing me, but I read an article recently discussing Islam in the African-American community, and the author pointed out that many of those who join the NOI tend to leave for Sunni Islam. You go in to clear your head, and then you join a larger community.
As it stands currently, the NOI represents but a minority of the African-American Muslim community, and that's important to note - too many hagiographies of the organization pretend that this is the face of black Islam, or that the NOI is the major force giving self-direction to poor African-Americans. This is not true at all, despite what the NOI might wish to believe.
There's no reason to lionize or demonize the organization and its splinter groups. They do both good and harm for their communities, and I fully accept the right of anyone to associate with whomever they please, especially if society at large is treating them like garbage.But there are a solid number of reasons why it - and black separatism in general - isn't more popular, and while I thoroughly respect the right of an adult to segregate himself, trapping children in that mindset is very dangerous. Without knowing it, you could be weakening them to a great degree.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:15 PM on August 4, 2007
craichead - awesome.
I only wish I could have heard your -snap- as you hit the 'Post Comment' button.
(one small point, and I may have been misunderstanding you: Perhaps your cousin would disagree, but from what I've read, the Black Panthers didn't consider themselves Nationalists, and often clashed with 'Cultural Nationalist' groups that emphisized seperatism. The Panthers at all times remained in solidarity with a broad and multiracial range of groups, including white radical activists)
posted by serazin at 11:35 PM on August 4, 2007
I only wish I could have heard your -snap- as you hit the 'Post Comment' button.
(one small point, and I may have been misunderstanding you: Perhaps your cousin would disagree, but from what I've read, the Black Panthers didn't consider themselves Nationalists, and often clashed with 'Cultural Nationalist' groups that emphisized seperatism. The Panthers at all times remained in solidarity with a broad and multiracial range of groups, including white radical activists)
posted by serazin at 11:35 PM on August 4, 2007
(one small point, and I may have been misunderstanding you: Perhaps your cousin would disagree, but from what I've read, the Black Panthers didn't consider themselves Nationalists, and often clashed with 'Cultural Nationalist' groups that emphisized seperatism. The Panthers at all times remained in solidarity with a broad and multiracial range of groups, including white radical activists)
Depends on whom you asked and when you asked them. Most of the time, based on what I've read, the Black Panthers were more nationalist than not, but like a lot of revolutionary organizations they splintered and evolved and had in-fighting and so on and so forth until the movement eventually dissolved.
...
UTTERLY RANDOM TRIVIA: James Cromwell - the farmer from Babe and, at 6'7", the tallest person to have been nominated for an Oscar - was active with the Panthers in the 60s. He's also a noted vegan, and remains to be banned from all Wendy's restaurants, after certain PETA-related activities in which he was involved.
posted by Sticherbeast at 11:54 PM on August 4, 2007
Depends on whom you asked and when you asked them. Most of the time, based on what I've read, the Black Panthers were more nationalist than not, but like a lot of revolutionary organizations they splintered and evolved and had in-fighting and so on and so forth until the movement eventually dissolved.
...
UTTERLY RANDOM TRIVIA: James Cromwell - the farmer from Babe and, at 6'7", the tallest person to have been nominated for an Oscar - was active with the Panthers in the 60s. He's also a noted vegan, and remains to be banned from all Wendy's restaurants, after certain PETA-related activities in which he was involved.
posted by Sticherbeast at 11:54 PM on August 4, 2007
The question of 'privilige' is not as simple as it may sound. A Harvard-educated black stockbroker vs. a high-school dropout white convenience store clerk-who's more priviliged? Depends on who's judging, depends on what level. The white convenience store clerk dosen't have to deal with the racial judgements that the black doctor does, but he's definitely more economically disenfranchised.
As far as the 'kill whitey krullers' joke...I actually admire Malcolm X and the Panthers to a degree, but I'm not a huge fan of the NOI, since I don't believe in separatism and and the Yacub story is a pretty central part of the rhetoric. (plus like evry New Yorker, I've run across these jokers, so my patience wears thin after awhile. The other drawback is that the positive aspects of the NOI program, economic self-sufficiency, cultural education etc. get buried in all the weird stuff. My buddy Dom was in the Million Man March and said he got a positive vibe from it until Farrakhan stopped talking politics and started talking about UFO's. My buddy Kevin, who grew up on Chicago's South Side told me about the $5 million dollar restaurant they built in a ghetto neighborhood, that nobody in the area could afford to patronize, yet somehow stayed in business, which made him wonder if there was financial chicanery happening.
Anecdotal to be sure, but it's enough to sour me on the organization, to say nothing of the anti-Semitism and homophobia.
posted by jonmc at 9:04 AM on August 5, 2007
As far as the 'kill whitey krullers' joke...I actually admire Malcolm X and the Panthers to a degree, but I'm not a huge fan of the NOI, since I don't believe in separatism and and the Yacub story is a pretty central part of the rhetoric. (plus like evry New Yorker, I've run across these jokers, so my patience wears thin after awhile. The other drawback is that the positive aspects of the NOI program, economic self-sufficiency, cultural education etc. get buried in all the weird stuff. My buddy Dom was in the Million Man March and said he got a positive vibe from it until Farrakhan stopped talking politics and started talking about UFO's. My buddy Kevin, who grew up on Chicago's South Side told me about the $5 million dollar restaurant they built in a ghetto neighborhood, that nobody in the area could afford to patronize, yet somehow stayed in business, which made him wonder if there was financial chicanery happening.
Anecdotal to be sure, but it's enough to sour me on the organization, to say nothing of the anti-Semitism and homophobia.
posted by jonmc at 9:04 AM on August 5, 2007
Q. Was the Black Panther Party a nationalist organization?
A. Depends on whom you asked and when you asked them.
True, true, and not the least b/c there was no "national" BPP. Each local BPP was usually led by charismatic leaders who set his/her own agenda.
and to jonmc--I understand completely. Growing up white in the 60s Chicago area I had friends in the Panthers and some of course became "black" muslims. The Yakub stuff within the FOI turned intolerance up to a nasty boil.
Most rewarding confrontation I ever had with FOI was as the only white in a Black Religions humanities class at UIC, and when the sole FOI representative in the class interrupted everyone during the introductions on the first day to demand my removal from an Africans only class (he sat directly in front of me and this tirade was delivered hysterically into my face) the rest of the class told him to sit down and shut up. He left and never returned.
I'm not sure about Kevin's $5 million restaurant on the South Side ( a foreign land to this former West sider) but the financial irregularities of the Elijah Muhammad organization and the infighting between Minister Farrakan's group and those who "converted" to true Islam along with Elijah's son Walid Muhammad was fodder for the Defender (and the Reader when it bubbled up to their level). Visible from the Skyway are two mosques within blocks of each other, one just conservative looking except for the star and crescent on the dome (and of course the dome) and the other quite glamorous looking --obviously a stunner even when viewed from the rapidly moving Skyway.
I'm skeptical of organized religion--my "birth" denomination used to be known for its amassed gold until they had to start paying court judgments--so I would not doubt "financial chicanery", since these organizations promote separating money from those least able to afford it.
posted by beelzbubba at 8:41 PM on August 5, 2007
A. Depends on whom you asked and when you asked them.
True, true, and not the least b/c there was no "national" BPP. Each local BPP was usually led by charismatic leaders who set his/her own agenda.
and to jonmc--I understand completely. Growing up white in the 60s Chicago area I had friends in the Panthers and some of course became "black" muslims. The Yakub stuff within the FOI turned intolerance up to a nasty boil.
Most rewarding confrontation I ever had with FOI was as the only white in a Black Religions humanities class at UIC, and when the sole FOI representative in the class interrupted everyone during the introductions on the first day to demand my removal from an Africans only class (he sat directly in front of me and this tirade was delivered hysterically into my face) the rest of the class told him to sit down and shut up. He left and never returned.
I'm not sure about Kevin's $5 million restaurant on the South Side ( a foreign land to this former West sider) but the financial irregularities of the Elijah Muhammad organization and the infighting between Minister Farrakan's group and those who "converted" to true Islam along with Elijah's son Walid Muhammad was fodder for the Defender (and the Reader when it bubbled up to their level). Visible from the Skyway are two mosques within blocks of each other, one just conservative looking except for the star and crescent on the dome (and of course the dome) and the other quite glamorous looking --obviously a stunner even when viewed from the rapidly moving Skyway.
I'm skeptical of organized religion--my "birth" denomination used to be known for its amassed gold until they had to start paying court judgments--so I would not doubt "financial chicanery", since these organizations promote separating money from those least able to afford it.
posted by beelzbubba at 8:41 PM on August 5, 2007
Eh, anyone catch the Christopher Hitchens article on it in Slate? Revealing total ignorance about pretty much the entire context, he claims the police's failure to act sooner was faith-based. Yeah, I heard so much about them sitting around the precinct house saying, "oh, let's not infringe on their freedom to practice their faith."
And did he just imply that Oakland was Baghdad By the Bay? Last time I checked, Baghdad had just slightly more violent deaths than the 150 Oakland had last year.
posted by salvia at 10:19 PM on August 6, 2007
And did he just imply that Oakland was Baghdad By the Bay? Last time I checked, Baghdad had just slightly more violent deaths than the 150 Oakland had last year.
posted by salvia at 10:19 PM on August 6, 2007
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posted by GuyZero at 12:12 PM on August 3, 2007