Segregation in Toronto Schools
January 29, 2008 10:05 PM Subscribe
Toronto trustees have voted in favor of an 'Afrocentric' school. City staff endorsed the plan, while other groups in the city have not been so supportive.
Large world city decides to create school focused on one of its many cultural groups. Yawn.
posted by Ironmouth at 10:27 PM on January 29, 2008
posted by Ironmouth at 10:27 PM on January 29, 2008
Meh. Wake me when they have a Zulu Nation school.
Seriously, I think this is cool. I have a sneaking suspicion that Toronto is pretty damn cool.
posted by wfrgms at 10:32 PM on January 29, 2008
Seriously, I think this is cool. I have a sneaking suspicion that Toronto is pretty damn cool.
posted by wfrgms at 10:32 PM on January 29, 2008
I think this is full-on.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:33 PM on January 29, 2008
posted by uncanny hengeman at 10:33 PM on January 29, 2008
I have no problem with 'theme' schools, but this is the wrong solution to the dropout problem. It isn't the 'Eurocentric' nature of schools, it is not race, it is culture--the culture of the descendants of people who were brutally taken away from their families, background, culture (with its ethic and morals) to become human cattle, supporting a thriving farming community as slaves. This culture has a depressed, fatalistic outlook on life that often does not appreciate or even believe in education.
If they look at recent immigrants and their kids from Africa (hey, Obama!) they will not see the same dropout rates.
I once was at a graduation ceremony of a inner city school in a mostly African American neighborhood of Oakland, California, and the valedictorian was....Chinese, with a Chinese accent. Certainly the Eurocentric school was at odds with her Chinese background, but it had no relevance since in the Asian culture education is highly regarded.
They need to address the problem of encouraging education in these kids from a very young age (preschool).
posted by eye of newt at 10:38 PM on January 29, 2008 [3 favorites]
If they look at recent immigrants and their kids from Africa (hey, Obama!) they will not see the same dropout rates.
I once was at a graduation ceremony of a inner city school in a mostly African American neighborhood of Oakland, California, and the valedictorian was....Chinese, with a Chinese accent. Certainly the Eurocentric school was at odds with her Chinese background, but it had no relevance since in the Asian culture education is highly regarded.
They need to address the problem of encouraging education in these kids from a very young age (preschool).
posted by eye of newt at 10:38 PM on January 29, 2008 [3 favorites]
I have no doubt that there are racial biases in the educational system but I don't know if the problems kids are having aren't symptomatic of a larger issue, one that won't be solved by this, and may be exacerbated by it. There was a round-table discussion on CBC's Sunday Edition this week that was worth listening to, IMO.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:42 PM on January 29, 2008
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:42 PM on January 29, 2008
Eye of newt: Many of the students in question are the children of immigrants. Just because you saw the word "afrocentric" doesn't mean you should rush to apply the history of the American slave trade in a Canadian context.
Not to say slavery is irrelevant, just that the facts are significantly different.
posted by maledictory at 10:44 PM on January 29, 2008 [2 favorites]
Not to say slavery is irrelevant, just that the facts are significantly different.
posted by maledictory at 10:44 PM on January 29, 2008 [2 favorites]
Hm.
If the city council voted yes on this, the school damn well better get a lot of money to do it right, or we're going to be laughed off of North America.
posted by blacklite at 10:49 PM on January 29, 2008
If the city council voted yes on this, the school damn well better get a lot of money to do it right, or we're going to be laughed off of North America.
posted by blacklite at 10:49 PM on January 29, 2008
It is true that I don't know Toronto, but the city of Toronto website talks an awful lot about slavery and its relevance to the history of Toronto.
Are you saying Toronto has a lot of recent immigrants from Africa? Or are these immigrants mostly from other countries, and another problem altogether?
posted by eye of newt at 10:57 PM on January 29, 2008
Are you saying Toronto has a lot of recent immigrants from Africa? Or are these immigrants mostly from other countries, and another problem altogether?
posted by eye of newt at 10:57 PM on January 29, 2008
The wikipedia page on Black Canadians (and not all would use "African Canadian") notes that "72 percent of all blacks in Canada have Caribbean or Bermudian heritage." Also, "nearly 40 percent of Black Canadians have Jamaican heritage." Having lived in Toronto, that sounds about right. So what is it about Jamaican culture you want to say?
posted by maledictory at 11:22 PM on January 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by maledictory at 11:22 PM on January 29, 2008 [1 favorite]
Ridiculous. This is like trying to make a balloon smaller by squeezing it. This school is going to have the same problems every other school does because it's full of humans. The East Africans will demand a focus on Somalia, Rwanda and Ethiopia; the West Africans will want to focus on the former slave colonies; the South Africans will want their special focus; and the North Africans won't be included at all except in tacky murals where Cleopatra is depicted as a sub-Saharan woman dressed like a pharaoh.
And so new feelings of slight will replace the old one, the kids will be factionalized as much as they were in standard schools, kids will continue to fail and the administrators will call it a huge success for intangible reasons.
The only positive thing I can think of is that this is being done in Canada, so the people founding it are presumably doing it based on good intentions, not a desire to get ahold of city money with little oversight to line their pockets.
We tried "separate but equal" here in the U.S. for a good while. It didn't work out very well, and the advocates of it are not highly regarded amongst educated people.
posted by Mayor Curley at 11:35 PM on January 29, 2008 [6 favorites]
And so new feelings of slight will replace the old one, the kids will be factionalized as much as they were in standard schools, kids will continue to fail and the administrators will call it a huge success for intangible reasons.
The only positive thing I can think of is that this is being done in Canada, so the people founding it are presumably doing it based on good intentions, not a desire to get ahold of city money with little oversight to line their pockets.
We tried "separate but equal" here in the U.S. for a good while. It didn't work out very well, and the advocates of it are not highly regarded amongst educated people.
posted by Mayor Curley at 11:35 PM on January 29, 2008 [6 favorites]
actually we're still trying with mixed results in the Puget Sound. Having worked in a school where the curriculum clearly wasn't reaching a lot of the African American students, I can see the rationale for these schools. If they work I'm all for them, but as Seattle has shown, just having an afrocentric curriculum does not academic achievement guarantee.
posted by nangua at 12:35 AM on January 30, 2008 [1 favorite]
posted by nangua at 12:35 AM on January 30, 2008 [1 favorite]
Has anyone found a layman's explanation of just what the hell they're talking about here? The National Post apparently assumes we already know what an "afrocentric" school is.
Is it really as simple as just taking all the black kids and sending them off to their own special school where they won't have to be around other kids and where anything they do will be special and great because of their wonderful afrocentricity? That sounds phenomenally stupid and I would expect black parents to be rioting in the streets over it instead of fighting to get it. Christ, why not just give them those B. McD. diplomas the English apparently have now and be done with it?
Or is the claim that these schools will use some kind of special afrocentric teaching methods that are supposed to be a better fit with the afrocentric culture the proponents think somehow applies to these kids because of what they look like?
You know, it sounds like a bullshit idea that way too, but I'd at least like to know what's being discussed.
posted by Naberius at 12:44 AM on January 30, 2008
Is it really as simple as just taking all the black kids and sending them off to their own special school where they won't have to be around other kids and where anything they do will be special and great because of their wonderful afrocentricity? That sounds phenomenally stupid and I would expect black parents to be rioting in the streets over it instead of fighting to get it. Christ, why not just give them those B. McD. diplomas the English apparently have now and be done with it?
Or is the claim that these schools will use some kind of special afrocentric teaching methods that are supposed to be a better fit with the afrocentric culture the proponents think somehow applies to these kids because of what they look like?
You know, it sounds like a bullshit idea that way too, but I'd at least like to know what's being discussed.
posted by Naberius at 12:44 AM on January 30, 2008
I like the idea. Experiment. See what happens. See what works. If this doesn't move on and try something else or try and do it better.
I am less of a fan of people who immediately shout "Bullshit", "Bad Idea", "This won't work". Every single change has hundreds of people like you. Sometimes you're right. Sometimes you're wrong. Always you are an obstacle.
posted by srboisvert at 1:47 AM on January 30, 2008
I am less of a fan of people who immediately shout "Bullshit", "Bad Idea", "This won't work". Every single change has hundreds of people like you. Sometimes you're right. Sometimes you're wrong. Always you are an obstacle.
posted by srboisvert at 1:47 AM on January 30, 2008
If Canadian schools are anything like British schools, they are already failing black children on a huge scale, so trying something different might be a good idea.
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 3:12 AM on January 30, 2008
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 3:12 AM on January 30, 2008
Just in case anyone else is getting error messages trying to access the story, here's the google cache.
While I think this school could have all sorts of nasty societal effects a long way down the road if not managed very, very carefully, I figure that if they don't try something, and the dropout rate remains the same, the school board only has itself to blame.
posted by flibbertigibbet at 4:01 AM on January 30, 2008
While I think this school could have all sorts of nasty societal effects a long way down the road if not managed very, very carefully, I figure that if they don't try something, and the dropout rate remains the same, the school board only has itself to blame.
posted by flibbertigibbet at 4:01 AM on January 30, 2008
let me see:
1. black kids are not as bright as others
2. black kids have same IQ but cultural heritage for learning is weak
3. black kids have bad vibes when in mixed schools but with other black kids might perform better
4. black kids will get special focus upon their interests and needs.
5. black kids are usually the butt of poor grades by white teachers and administrators and this might alter things.
6. being with people like you is good for self-esteem and will help your education.
7.blacks in their own school is bad for the idea of One nation as melting pot etc
8. girls seem to learn better when they are in all-girl schools so why not blacks in all-black schools?
9. Canada has a large French mostly area and that is ok so why not further ethnic and cultural distinctions?
posted by Postroad at 4:19 AM on January 30, 2008
1. black kids are not as bright as others
2. black kids have same IQ but cultural heritage for learning is weak
3. black kids have bad vibes when in mixed schools but with other black kids might perform better
4. black kids will get special focus upon their interests and needs.
5. black kids are usually the butt of poor grades by white teachers and administrators and this might alter things.
6. being with people like you is good for self-esteem and will help your education.
7.blacks in their own school is bad for the idea of One nation as melting pot etc
8. girls seem to learn better when they are in all-girl schools so why not blacks in all-black schools?
9. Canada has a large French mostly area and that is ok so why not further ethnic and cultural distinctions?
posted by Postroad at 4:19 AM on January 30, 2008
There are already schools based on religion (especially in Ontario, where they still have a separate Catholic school system).
While making separate schools for separate races (or, to be more accurate, separate cultures) could have the effect, one way or another, of promoting cultural or racial superiority, the fact is that religious institutions presuppose superiority. I'd take this sort of cultural niche school over a religious school any day.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:57 AM on January 30, 2008
While making separate schools for separate races (or, to be more accurate, separate cultures) could have the effect, one way or another, of promoting cultural or racial superiority, the fact is that religious institutions presuppose superiority. I'd take this sort of cultural niche school over a religious school any day.
posted by Sys Rq at 4:57 AM on January 30, 2008
(I'm assuming anyone from any cultural background could attend these schools if they wanted to, right? The only thing keeping it 'segregated' is that outsiders would have no interest in doing so, yes?)
posted by Sys Rq at 5:03 AM on January 30, 2008
posted by Sys Rq at 5:03 AM on January 30, 2008
Here is the TDSB's own press release about the initiative along with a link to a PDF of their report "Improving success for Black students", which may help answer some of the questions being posed in this thread.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 5:42 AM on January 30, 2008
posted by sevenyearlurk at 5:42 AM on January 30, 2008
Well, the major complaint was that the school looked like it was going to be underfunded if it was started, and that is certainly a recipe for disaster.
Anyway, I personally think any kind of segregation is a terrible idea. I mean I can sort of see the rationale for Native Americans, but school should be a place where people get exposed to other cultures, etc. Going to a segregated school would, I think, really cause people to be closed off to other ethnic groups as adults. Which is exactly what we don't need.
Furthermore, why not try to teach African history to all students, along with Asian, European, South and North American history? Kids do get a lot of European history, although a lot of interesting stuff happened in other parts of the world as well.
posted by delmoi at 6:14 AM on January 30, 2008
Anyway, I personally think any kind of segregation is a terrible idea. I mean I can sort of see the rationale for Native Americans, but school should be a place where people get exposed to other cultures, etc. Going to a segregated school would, I think, really cause people to be closed off to other ethnic groups as adults. Which is exactly what we don't need.
Furthermore, why not try to teach African history to all students, along with Asian, European, South and North American history? Kids do get a lot of European history, although a lot of interesting stuff happened in other parts of the world as well.
posted by delmoi at 6:14 AM on January 30, 2008
I'm assuming anyone from any cultural background could attend these schools if they wanted to, right?
Yes, anyone could attend. This is one of the arguments against the suggestion that this is segregation.
A 40% dropout rate is utterly shameful in a city and country such as this, and thus any idea may be worth trying. On the other hand, there is an aboriginal-centered school that has some of the lowest measures of any school in the city. (1/3rd of pupils suspended)
My cynical suspicion is that this school will see a boost in per capita funding and a big reduction in the student:teacher ratio, followed by glowing praise as to how the afro-centric focused curriculum was a success.
posted by Adam_S at 6:36 AM on January 30, 2008 [3 favorites]
Yes, anyone could attend. This is one of the arguments against the suggestion that this is segregation.
A 40% dropout rate is utterly shameful in a city and country such as this, and thus any idea may be worth trying. On the other hand, there is an aboriginal-centered school that has some of the lowest measures of any school in the city. (1/3rd of pupils suspended)
My cynical suspicion is that this school will see a boost in per capita funding and a big reduction in the student:teacher ratio, followed by glowing praise as to how the afro-centric focused curriculum was a success.
posted by Adam_S at 6:36 AM on January 30, 2008 [3 favorites]
Paul Tillich has said that sin is separation. Is not segregation an existential expression of man's tragic separation, his awful estrangement, his terrible sinfulness?
-MLK, Letter from a Birmingham Jail
posted by anotherpanacea at 6:41 AM on January 30, 2008
-MLK, Letter from a Birmingham Jail
posted by anotherpanacea at 6:41 AM on January 30, 2008
When they say "school" many people may get the wrong idea. It's what the Toronto District School Board calls an "alternative school". There are already dozens of them. They're baasically charter school in the American sense, except that they're not actually schools. They're 2 to 4 rooms in an existing public school with a separate set of teachers.
So it's going to be 2 to 4 Afro-centric rooms in an existing school in a community that already has 10-15 school rooms full of black students.
I'm not really sure if this makes any difference to anyone.
posted by GuyZero at 6:42 AM on January 30, 2008
So it's going to be 2 to 4 Afro-centric rooms in an existing school in a community that already has 10-15 school rooms full of black students.
I'm not really sure if this makes any difference to anyone.
posted by GuyZero at 6:42 AM on January 30, 2008
Everyone seems to be focusing on the "segregation" aspect, which is troubling but not a huge problem if in fact they're not keeping nonblack kids out. What bothers me is the "Afrocentric" part, which unless it's an independent use of an already existing term means that the kids are going to get taught a lot of unhistorical nonsense. You'd think the newspaper pieces would at least mention that, and say something about whether that's what the schools will teach.
posted by languagehat at 6:54 AM on January 30, 2008
posted by languagehat at 6:54 AM on January 30, 2008
Furthermore, why not try to teach African history to all students, along with Asian, European, South and North American history? Kids do get a lot of European history, although a lot of interesting stuff happened in other parts of the world as well.
Trouble is, there's just not enough time in the school curriculum to teach every topic that is interesting or important. To condense 6000 years of civilization down into a course lasting a couple of years is going to involve some pretty drastic cuts. History as a whole has a hard enough time justifying its slot in the timetable next to Math and English and Science, so it's only the really big A-list topics that make it: the Romans, the Greeks, the Industrial Revolution, the French Revolution, Colonization, WWII.
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 7:12 AM on January 30, 2008
Trouble is, there's just not enough time in the school curriculum to teach every topic that is interesting or important. To condense 6000 years of civilization down into a course lasting a couple of years is going to involve some pretty drastic cuts. History as a whole has a hard enough time justifying its slot in the timetable next to Math and English and Science, so it's only the really big A-list topics that make it: the Romans, the Greeks, the Industrial Revolution, the French Revolution, Colonization, WWII.
posted by hoverboards don't work on water at 7:12 AM on January 30, 2008
Is not segregation an existential expression of man's tragic separation
Apparently you didin't hear the radio reports this morning with people screaming and crying about segregation. I've heard less wailing at funerals. I was frankly amazed that the motion passed. A LOT of people think this is a very, very bad idea.
posted by GuyZero at 7:21 AM on January 30, 2008
Apparently you didin't hear the radio reports this morning with people screaming and crying about segregation. I've heard less wailing at funerals. I was frankly amazed that the motion passed. A LOT of people think this is a very, very bad idea.
posted by GuyZero at 7:21 AM on January 30, 2008
The press release has some gems:
Encourage children not to copy the tough gangster look that America has sold to
Black youth.
posted by eye of newt at 7:57 AM on January 30, 2008
Encourage children not to copy the tough gangster look that America has sold to
Black youth.
posted by eye of newt at 7:57 AM on January 30, 2008
Perhaps you're not aware that American influence is the all-purpose scapegoat for every problem in Canada. From conservative politicians to gun violence, we wouldn't have these problems if we could just get rid of everything between Canada and Mexico.
And I say this not because I believe it, but I know that it comes out both explicitly and implicitly a lot.
You know how some people in the US blame every problem on illegal Mexican immigrants? Shift everything one country north and it's exactly the same. And about as true.
posted by GuyZero at 8:14 AM on January 30, 2008 [1 favorite]
And I say this not because I believe it, but I know that it comes out both explicitly and implicitly a lot.
You know how some people in the US blame every problem on illegal Mexican immigrants? Shift everything one country north and it's exactly the same. And about as true.
posted by GuyZero at 8:14 AM on January 30, 2008 [1 favorite]
You'd think the newspaper pieces would at least mention that, and say something about whether that's what the schools will teach.
Knowning how the TDSB works, no one knows what the school will teach. They basically have a charter at this point. But it will be a publically funded school and as such it needs to comform to the same standards as every other public school in Ontario. Which in turn means that whatever afrocentric history they teach will get less than an hour a week. Unless they have an afrocentric math curriculum or something.
posted by GuyZero at 8:18 AM on January 30, 2008
Knowning how the TDSB works, no one knows what the school will teach. They basically have a charter at this point. But it will be a publically funded school and as such it needs to comform to the same standards as every other public school in Ontario. Which in turn means that whatever afrocentric history they teach will get less than an hour a week. Unless they have an afrocentric math curriculum or something.
posted by GuyZero at 8:18 AM on January 30, 2008
I have mixed feelings on what it would be like to go there. I imagine that I'd probably get pretty good grades in Black History and Black Lit, but I've always done really poorly in Black Math (excepting Black Geometry) and Black Biology.
Also, I'm just going to come right out and say it... Their sports teams are going to kick the snot out of every other school in the district. Well, maybe not hockey.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 8:20 AM on January 30, 2008
Also, I'm just going to come right out and say it... Their sports teams are going to kick the snot out of every other school in the district. Well, maybe not hockey.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 8:20 AM on January 30, 2008
Encourage children not to copy the tough gangster look that America has sold to
Black youth.
Conspicuous consumption of XXL threads knows no racial boundaries.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 8:43 AM on January 30, 2008
Conspicuous consumption of XXL threads knows no racial boundaries.
posted by solipsophistocracy at 8:43 AM on January 30, 2008
Also, I'm just going to come right out and say it... Their sports teams are going to kick the snot out of every other school in the district. Well, maybe not hockey.
It's Toronto, hockey nation! How can they not be good at hockey?
posted by tksh at 8:58 AM on January 30, 2008
It's Toronto, hockey nation! How can they not be good at hockey?
posted by tksh at 8:58 AM on January 30, 2008
Perhaps you're not aware that American influence is the all-purpose scapegoat for every problem in Canada. From conservative politicians to gun violence, we wouldn't have these problems if we could just get rid of everything between Canada and Mexico.
And I say this not because I believe it, but I know that it comes out both explicitly and implicitly a lot.
That statement leaves me nonplussed, GuyZero. I do hear a lot of "this or that problem isn't at extreme as in the states" but I don't think I ever hear anyone explicitly or implicity saying that American problems are seeping over our borders — except in the case of air pollution and worries about the economy.
posted by orange swan at 9:00 AM on January 30, 2008
And I say this not because I believe it, but I know that it comes out both explicitly and implicitly a lot.
That statement leaves me nonplussed, GuyZero. I do hear a lot of "this or that problem isn't at extreme as in the states" but I don't think I ever hear anyone explicitly or implicity saying that American problems are seeping over our borders — except in the case of air pollution and worries about the economy.
posted by orange swan at 9:00 AM on January 30, 2008
It's Toronto, hockey nation! How can they not be good at hockey?
Torontonians are good at being hockey fans — the dumbest, most die-hard loyalists anywhere in sports. We're not good at building a good hockey team.
posted by orange swan at 9:01 AM on January 30, 2008
Torontonians are good at being hockey fans — the dumbest, most die-hard loyalists anywhere in sports. We're not good at building a good hockey team.
posted by orange swan at 9:01 AM on January 30, 2008
A generation ago, America exported cars and steel.
Nowadays, our main exports are Hollywood horseshit, fast food and political correctness.
Poor Canada. So far from God, so close to the United States.
I'm really sorry about this.
posted by jason's_planet at 9:02 AM on January 30, 2008
Nowadays, our main exports are Hollywood horseshit, fast food and political correctness.
Poor Canada. So far from God, so close to the United States.
I'm really sorry about this.
posted by jason's_planet at 9:02 AM on January 30, 2008
I don't think I ever hear anyone explicitly or implicity saying that American problems are seeping over our borders
People compare Harper to Bush or say that he wants to implemnent "Bush-like" policies. Illegal guns used in crimes are often labelled as "American Guns". People talk about trying to get away from "the tough gangster look that America has sold..." When Ontarians compare Alberta to Texas, it's not a positive thing. If "Canadian" is a code-word for black people in the US, "American" is a code word for social policies that Canadians don't want. The phrase "US-style health care" inevitable describes something people are against. Untimately though, none of these issues has anything to do with the US at all. They're all Canadian issues, just like high drop-out rates in Toronto's black youth is our issue and has nothing to do with US gangster culture.
Perhaps I made the statement too broad - certainly people don't blame every issue on Americans. But the US is used as a scapegoat often enough - too often. I just see this as another example of scapegoating the US. It's unsurprising and irrelevant.
posted by GuyZero at 9:23 AM on January 30, 2008 [1 favorite]
People compare Harper to Bush or say that he wants to implemnent "Bush-like" policies. Illegal guns used in crimes are often labelled as "American Guns". People talk about trying to get away from "the tough gangster look that America has sold..." When Ontarians compare Alberta to Texas, it's not a positive thing. If "Canadian" is a code-word for black people in the US, "American" is a code word for social policies that Canadians don't want. The phrase "US-style health care" inevitable describes something people are against. Untimately though, none of these issues has anything to do with the US at all. They're all Canadian issues, just like high drop-out rates in Toronto's black youth is our issue and has nothing to do with US gangster culture.
Perhaps I made the statement too broad - certainly people don't blame every issue on Americans. But the US is used as a scapegoat often enough - too often. I just see this as another example of scapegoating the US. It's unsurprising and irrelevant.
posted by GuyZero at 9:23 AM on January 30, 2008 [1 favorite]
It's Toronto, hockey nation! How can they not be good at hockey?
Per orange swan's comments, have you seen the Leafs? Toronto is defined by being bad at hockey.
posted by GuyZero at 9:24 AM on January 30, 2008
Per orange swan's comments, have you seen the Leafs? Toronto is defined by being bad at hockey.
posted by GuyZero at 9:24 AM on January 30, 2008
How is this not segregation?
How is this not separate but equal?
This will not wendell.
posted by MythMaker at 9:38 AM on January 30, 2008
How is this not separate but equal?
This will not wendell.
posted by MythMaker at 9:38 AM on January 30, 2008
We have the Plains Indian Cultural Survival School-- an entire school-- in Calgary and have since 2001. In cities like Winnipeg and Saskatoon, where the urban First Nations population is at least 10% of the city, there are most definitely "separate but equal" programs for native youth.
It might be naive to collapse all "Indians" into one group and claim that they all benefit from a similar curriculum and similar pedagogy. But what's proposed in Toronto seems to be much more presumptuous and, frankly, dangerous. What does "afrocentric" mean in a community of "black" people who are so much more diverse than the "black" population in most (non-NYC and non-Miami) American contexts? In Calgary, we have a huge Sudanese population, one comprising, mostly, refugees with needs more urgent than "learning about Africa." They KNOW about "Africa" and they can teach us a lot about their experiences there. Why would they be placed, by virtue of their skin colour, into a classroom with second- and third-generation Jamaican- or Barbadian-Canadian "black" people who are three hundred years removed from Africa and with whom the Sudanese share as much culturally as they do with Martians?
This is issue is more relevant in Toronto. Toronto does not have "black" people as Americans construe them (or that Brits do for that matter). Toronto has Jamaicans and other West Indians (many of whom are of course not "black" on any definition; my partner is Trinidadian East Indian as are hundreds of thousands of people in Toronto); Toronto has a large and burgeoning number of new immigrants and children of immigrants from African nations as disparate as Sudan and Nigeria; Toronto has massive Ethiopian, Eritrean, and Somali populations; Toronto has a smidgen of descendants of American slaves (and even Canadian slaves, though slavery in Canada was brief and minuscule relative to the US, the West Indies or Brazil).
Imposing on all this diversity an "Afrocentric" curriculum is also imposing homogeneity and racialization where it has never existed, and THAT, my well-intentioned friends, is RACISM.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 9:57 AM on January 30, 2008 [5 favorites]
It might be naive to collapse all "Indians" into one group and claim that they all benefit from a similar curriculum and similar pedagogy. But what's proposed in Toronto seems to be much more presumptuous and, frankly, dangerous. What does "afrocentric" mean in a community of "black" people who are so much more diverse than the "black" population in most (non-NYC and non-Miami) American contexts? In Calgary, we have a huge Sudanese population, one comprising, mostly, refugees with needs more urgent than "learning about Africa." They KNOW about "Africa" and they can teach us a lot about their experiences there. Why would they be placed, by virtue of their skin colour, into a classroom with second- and third-generation Jamaican- or Barbadian-Canadian "black" people who are three hundred years removed from Africa and with whom the Sudanese share as much culturally as they do with Martians?
This is issue is more relevant in Toronto. Toronto does not have "black" people as Americans construe them (or that Brits do for that matter). Toronto has Jamaicans and other West Indians (many of whom are of course not "black" on any definition; my partner is Trinidadian East Indian as are hundreds of thousands of people in Toronto); Toronto has a large and burgeoning number of new immigrants and children of immigrants from African nations as disparate as Sudan and Nigeria; Toronto has massive Ethiopian, Eritrean, and Somali populations; Toronto has a smidgen of descendants of American slaves (and even Canadian slaves, though slavery in Canada was brief and minuscule relative to the US, the West Indies or Brazil).
Imposing on all this diversity an "Afrocentric" curriculum is also imposing homogeneity and racialization where it has never existed, and THAT, my well-intentioned friends, is RACISM.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 9:57 AM on January 30, 2008 [5 favorites]
Dude, nobody's forcing these kids to go to this school. Okay, maybe their parents. But you know what? Their parents know what they need better than you do.
It isn't racist to choose to learn about where you come from.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:05 AM on January 30, 2008
It isn't racist to choose to learn about where you come from.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:05 AM on January 30, 2008
Segregation is a red herring, but so is the idea that merely changing the curriculum of a school is going to cause real change. Unless maybe that curriculum covers: "How to study even though you were kept up to 4 am by the sounds of your meth head neighbors fighting", "how to pass standardized tests while hungry", "how to concentrate at school when you feel unsafe at home" and "why it's really in your best interests not to act out, even though every adult in your life has abandoned you." Seeing faces like yours in a textbook is great and will help, but we're talking about some old, old, old problems affecting every (!) social group that is overcoming generational poverty and historical trauma. If solving such a holistic problem were just as easy as changing school curriculum, somebody would have solved these problems already.
Research has shown that persistent, early and holistic one-on-one mentoring creates resilience and real change and has the added bonus of creating contact with real, live role models that look like you and can teach you about your culture, as opposed to textbook facsimiles. However, that kind of long-term 12+ year investment in each student requires community support and buy-in far in excess of the good-feeling, one-off, set-it-and-forget-it pseudo-support of creating a new school, just like the old one. That's not to blame the specific at-risk community, per se, since they have their own problems, but that kind of system could be bootstrapped by city funds and paid mentors.
posted by Skwirl at 10:08 AM on January 30, 2008 [3 favorites]
Research has shown that persistent, early and holistic one-on-one mentoring creates resilience and real change and has the added bonus of creating contact with real, live role models that look like you and can teach you about your culture, as opposed to textbook facsimiles. However, that kind of long-term 12+ year investment in each student requires community support and buy-in far in excess of the good-feeling, one-off, set-it-and-forget-it pseudo-support of creating a new school, just like the old one. That's not to blame the specific at-risk community, per se, since they have their own problems, but that kind of system could be bootstrapped by city funds and paid mentors.
posted by Skwirl at 10:08 AM on January 30, 2008 [3 favorites]
Sys Rq -- If your comment was in response to ethnomethodologist's comment, I don't think they were saying what you think they were saying. The idea that people who came from incredibly diverse cultures and recent histories can be served by one curriculum is what they're calling racist.
posted by Skwirl at 10:19 AM on January 30, 2008
posted by Skwirl at 10:19 AM on January 30, 2008
It isn't racist to choose to learn about where you come from.
But the odds are they're not going to learn about where they came from so much as learn a bunch of tripe about how Egypt was Black and Cleopatra was Black and the Greeks stole everything from the Blacks. Learning false things makes you dumber.
posted by languagehat at 11:08 AM on January 30, 2008 [2 favorites]
But the odds are they're not going to learn about where they came from so much as learn a bunch of tripe about how Egypt was Black and Cleopatra was Black and the Greeks stole everything from the Blacks. Learning false things makes you dumber.
posted by languagehat at 11:08 AM on January 30, 2008 [2 favorites]
People compare Harper to Bush or say that he wants to implemnent "Bush-like" policies.
Of all the major Canadian political parties, the Conservatives are far and away the closest to the US Republicans on environmental issues, fiscal policy, foreign policy, just about any category you can name. When he was Minister of Foreign Affairs, Peter MacKay used a routine photo-op with Condoleeza Rice in Nova Scotia to announce, "I've always been a fan of yours."
Illegal guns used in crimes are often labelled as "American Guns".
I think that might be because a great many of them were purchased in the United States and smuggled illegally into Canada. It's a descriptive term, not a paranoid delusion.
This isn't scapegoating, as far as I'm concerned. This is a healthy wariness of the influence of the most powerful nation on earth as it seems to be teetering on the verge of a collapse that would almost certainly have grave repercussions for its closest neighbour. To resurrect Trudeau's old adage, when you're sleeping next to an elephant, you not only notice every grunt and twitch, you need to be acutely aware that you could wind up crushed by the beast's serious spasms.
posted by gompa at 11:15 AM on January 30, 2008 [1 favorite]
Of all the major Canadian political parties, the Conservatives are far and away the closest to the US Republicans on environmental issues, fiscal policy, foreign policy, just about any category you can name. When he was Minister of Foreign Affairs, Peter MacKay used a routine photo-op with Condoleeza Rice in Nova Scotia to announce, "I've always been a fan of yours."
Illegal guns used in crimes are often labelled as "American Guns".
I think that might be because a great many of them were purchased in the United States and smuggled illegally into Canada. It's a descriptive term, not a paranoid delusion.
This isn't scapegoating, as far as I'm concerned. This is a healthy wariness of the influence of the most powerful nation on earth as it seems to be teetering on the verge of a collapse that would almost certainly have grave repercussions for its closest neighbour. To resurrect Trudeau's old adage, when you're sleeping next to an elephant, you not only notice every grunt and twitch, you need to be acutely aware that you could wind up crushed by the beast's serious spasms.
posted by gompa at 11:15 AM on January 30, 2008 [1 favorite]
I've never been to Toronto. I know its a very multi-ethnic city, but is it a city of integrated cultures, or is it a city of a lot of individual, keeping to ourselves cultures? A friend of mine while visiting Toronto was actually shocked at some explicit racism they observed while there, hence my question. Is this a case of one micro culture in the city giving up on belonging to a greater collective and pushing to have their own society?
posted by Atreides at 11:41 AM on January 30, 2008
posted by Atreides at 11:41 AM on January 30, 2008
learn a bunch of tripe about how Egypt was Black and Cleopatra was Black
Actually, I finally read the recommendation document and they use the term "Africentric" perhaps to distance themselves from that particular movement. From all the newspaper stories and radio stories I have gotten no impression that this is a political movement beyond voluntary segregation. I think these people are sincere in their belief that they can lower drop out rates by nothing more than studying the history of Jamaican immigration to Canada as opposed to the battle of the plains of Abraham.
posted by GuyZero at 11:46 AM on January 30, 2008 [1 favorite]
Actually, I finally read the recommendation document and they use the term "Africentric" perhaps to distance themselves from that particular movement. From all the newspaper stories and radio stories I have gotten no impression that this is a political movement beyond voluntary segregation. I think these people are sincere in their belief that they can lower drop out rates by nothing more than studying the history of Jamaican immigration to Canada as opposed to the battle of the plains of Abraham.
posted by GuyZero at 11:46 AM on January 30, 2008 [1 favorite]
Atreides, this is anecdotal, but I lived in Toronto for eight years and found it to be far and away the most diverse and integrated and least racist city I've ever spent time in. This is increasingly true of urban Canada in general; there are legit criticisms to be made about Canada's official multiculturalism, but I would argue that the relative harmony of the country's diverse cities, which are as polyglot as any in human history, is probably Canada's greatest achievement as a society.
I lived in a neighbourhood on the west side of downtown Toronto during the '98 World Cup, and I'm not exaggerating when I say that literally every single game inspired a victory celebration among some segment of the local populace. I once spoke to a world-issues class at an eastside high school, and it was like addressing the UN. New York, in my experience, is much more balkanized in the way you describe than Toronto is, London vastly moreso.
And as a data point, here's a recent news item placing Toronto in basically the same class as London and NYC in terms of diversity. I once did a bit of checking - don't have the links close at hand - and found that while NYC could claim a larger "nonwhite" population, it drew the majority of that from two groups, blacks and Latinos, whereas there's a greater number of thick stripes in the T.O. multicultural rainbow.
posted by gompa at 11:55 AM on January 30, 2008
I lived in a neighbourhood on the west side of downtown Toronto during the '98 World Cup, and I'm not exaggerating when I say that literally every single game inspired a victory celebration among some segment of the local populace. I once spoke to a world-issues class at an eastside high school, and it was like addressing the UN. New York, in my experience, is much more balkanized in the way you describe than Toronto is, London vastly moreso.
And as a data point, here's a recent news item placing Toronto in basically the same class as London and NYC in terms of diversity. I once did a bit of checking - don't have the links close at hand - and found that while NYC could claim a larger "nonwhite" population, it drew the majority of that from two groups, blacks and Latinos, whereas there's a greater number of thick stripes in the T.O. multicultural rainbow.
posted by gompa at 11:55 AM on January 30, 2008
"American" is a code word for social policies that Canadians don't want.... I just see this as another example of scapegoating the US.
I agree with the first statement, but not the latter. It's not blaming our problems on the U.S. to say we don't want American-style gun laws or medicare. It's just a way of contrasting and comparing American social policy with Canadian.
posted by orange swan at 12:06 PM on January 30, 2008
I agree with the first statement, but not the latter. It's not blaming our problems on the U.S. to say we don't want American-style gun laws or medicare. It's just a way of contrasting and comparing American social policy with Canadian.
posted by orange swan at 12:06 PM on January 30, 2008
literally every single game inspired a victory celebration among some segment of the local populace
This still happens, and it is some pretty happy noise.
Toronto is a patchwork of small areas with their own flavour. My dad likes to say that a mile is a long way in Toronto, and he's so right. Walk for fifteen minutes in any direction and the whole character of the neighbourhood will probably change noticeably. I'm told Toronto's Chinatown is bigger than London's. There's Little India. Bathurst is Jewish. Roncesvalles is Polish. Eglinton West is very West Indies. Besides making Toronto an interesting place to walk around, and besides the availability of every kind of food you can think of, the great thing about them is their relatively small size. They are often just shopping and marketing districts, with a sprinkling of restaurants and businesses. The areas don't become ghettos or insular enclaves mainly populated by people who never set foot outside the boundaries of their own neighbourhoods, and a person not of that ethnicity can feel perfectly comfortable and welcome in any area.
posted by orange swan at 12:19 PM on January 30, 2008
This still happens, and it is some pretty happy noise.
Toronto is a patchwork of small areas with their own flavour. My dad likes to say that a mile is a long way in Toronto, and he's so right. Walk for fifteen minutes in any direction and the whole character of the neighbourhood will probably change noticeably. I'm told Toronto's Chinatown is bigger than London's. There's Little India. Bathurst is Jewish. Roncesvalles is Polish. Eglinton West is very West Indies. Besides making Toronto an interesting place to walk around, and besides the availability of every kind of food you can think of, the great thing about them is their relatively small size. They are often just shopping and marketing districts, with a sprinkling of restaurants and businesses. The areas don't become ghettos or insular enclaves mainly populated by people who never set foot outside the boundaries of their own neighbourhoods, and a person not of that ethnicity can feel perfectly comfortable and welcome in any area.
posted by orange swan at 12:19 PM on January 30, 2008
>[toronto] is it a city of integrated cultures, or is it a city of a lot of individual, keeping to ourselves cultures?
I've lived over 20 years of my white male adult life in Toronto. It's big enough to have a touch of both in different spots, but I do think that on the whole it's a successfully-integrated city. There are no areas that really scare the pants off me, though there are a few spots that I wouldn't want to spend alot of time in after dark. It seems to me that we get just about the best of both worlds - a diverse, harmonious population, and also many opportunities to get deep into your own culture, or somebody else's culture, through visiting the different neighbourhoods, attending festivals, etc.
I haven't been closely following the debates on the afro-centric school, so I can't address all the arguments. The proponents for the separate school have been fairly vocal and in front of the media, and I think that many of the trustees were worried about the optics of being on the "wrong" side of this, which is why it passed. Oh well. I'm not going to picket it or anything. I guess it's worth a try. Can someone point out a similar situation where an afro-centric made a difference?
posted by Artful Codger at 12:48 PM on January 30, 2008
I've lived over 20 years of my white male adult life in Toronto. It's big enough to have a touch of both in different spots, but I do think that on the whole it's a successfully-integrated city. There are no areas that really scare the pants off me, though there are a few spots that I wouldn't want to spend alot of time in after dark. It seems to me that we get just about the best of both worlds - a diverse, harmonious population, and also many opportunities to get deep into your own culture, or somebody else's culture, through visiting the different neighbourhoods, attending festivals, etc.
I haven't been closely following the debates on the afro-centric school, so I can't address all the arguments. The proponents for the separate school have been fairly vocal and in front of the media, and I think that many of the trustees were worried about the optics of being on the "wrong" side of this, which is why it passed. Oh well. I'm not going to picket it or anything. I guess it's worth a try. Can someone point out a similar situation where an afro-centric made a difference?
posted by Artful Codger at 12:48 PM on January 30, 2008
Actually, I finally read the recommendation document and they use the term "Africentric" perhaps to distance themselves from that particular movement.
Ah, that's a good sign. I hope you're right about what it means.
posted by languagehat at 1:03 PM on January 30, 2008
Ah, that's a good sign. I hope you're right about what it means.
posted by languagehat at 1:03 PM on January 30, 2008
Detroit Public Schools tried an Afro-Centric curriculum a few years back by teaching the Baseline Essays, which included such insights as the ancient Egyptians invented electric batteries and mastered electroplating, discovered the principles of quantum mechanics and anticipated Darwin's theories of evolution. All Egyptians were black, and their abundance of the dark skin pigment made them more humane and superior to lighter-skinned people in body and mind and also provided them with such paranormal powers as ESP and psychokinesis.
Considering the current dropout rate, such a curriculum didn't make African-American students like school any better.
posted by Oriole Adams at 1:08 PM on January 30, 2008 [1 favorite]
Considering the current dropout rate, such a curriculum didn't make African-American students like school any better.
posted by Oriole Adams at 1:08 PM on January 30, 2008 [1 favorite]
Their sports teams are going to kick the snot out of every other school in the district. Well, maybe not hockey.
Think again dude!
posted by jkaczor at 3:00 PM on January 30, 2008
Think again dude!
posted by jkaczor at 3:00 PM on January 30, 2008
In case you're wondering, jkaczor links to the bio of one Jarome Arthur-Leigh Adekunle Tig Junior Elvis Iginla, "Iggy" to his friends and adoring Flames fans. I mention this because I live a five-minute walk from the Saddledome, and I had no idea he had such an elaborate moniker. He could be a character in some kind of postmodern post-colonial satire of Restoration drama with a name like that.
posted by gompa at 3:18 PM on January 30, 2008
posted by gompa at 3:18 PM on January 30, 2008
Oh, and as further anecdotal evidence of the reasonably easygoing nature of urban Canada's diversity, I have never heard even a passing, incidental, half-joking-but-maybe-not mention of Iggy's skin colour and cultural heritage in a negative light from even the most over-Pilsnered of yahoo Calgary hockey fans. Not a wink, not a raised eyebrow, not a random gesture. He's just Iggy. His ethnicity's less remarkable in these parts than Miikka Kiprusoff's, at least in my limited experience.
posted by gompa at 3:23 PM on January 30, 2008
posted by gompa at 3:23 PM on January 30, 2008
And this photo, found while googling to double-check the spelling of Kipper's name, is really a pretty awesome photo.
posted by gompa at 3:28 PM on January 30, 2008
posted by gompa at 3:28 PM on January 30, 2008
further to gompa: the ranking of North American cities by the per-capita incidence of immigration in 2007: 1. Toronto; 2. Vancouver; 3. Calgary. Calgary took in almost 14,000 international immigrants last year, which was more, proportionally, than New York, Miami, LA, or any other American city. The most racially diverse non-CMA (ie, "rural") city in Canada is Brooks, Alberta.
posted by ethnomethodologist at 5:58 PM on January 30, 2008
posted by ethnomethodologist at 5:58 PM on January 30, 2008
Wow, that's actually Jarome Iginla's name.
My dad likes to say that a mile is a long way in Toronto
That's because you use kilometers. (I kid.) Really, though, gompa, Toronto is probably more balkanized than New York. The people you're likely to run into at Bathurst and Steeles aren't at all like those at College and Spadina, and neither of those two groups is particularly like people who live at Jane and Finch. You pick a neighborhood, and there's a predominant ethnic group living there.
posted by oaf at 1:19 PM on January 31, 2008
My dad likes to say that a mile is a long way in Toronto
That's because you use kilometers. (I kid.) Really, though, gompa, Toronto is probably more balkanized than New York. The people you're likely to run into at Bathurst and Steeles aren't at all like those at College and Spadina, and neither of those two groups is particularly like people who live at Jane and Finch. You pick a neighborhood, and there's a predominant ethnic group living there.
posted by oaf at 1:19 PM on January 31, 2008
oaf > Toronto is probably more balkanized than New York. The people you're likely to run into at Bathurst and Steeles aren't at all like those at College and Spadina, and neither of those two groups is particularly like people who live at Jane and Finch. You pick a neighborhood, and there's a predominant ethnic group living there.
According to the omniscient Wikipedia: Balkanization is a geopolitical term originally used to describe the process of fragmentation or division of a region or state into smaller regions or states that are often hostile or non-cooperative with each other. [bolding mine]
I don't know whole lot about NYC, but in Toronto, I can safely visit Bathurst and Steeles, or Jane & Finch, or Cabbagetown or Lower Spadina, etc . And the residents of those areas can safely visit my 'hood (shout out to New Toronto & Mimico (south Etobicoke, represent)- big polish population, a pocket of Somalians, alot of teachers and artists in the small working-class houses) . So - are there lots of different neighbourhoods with distinctive cultural or national identities? hell yes. Are they hostile or non-cooperative? For the most part, NO.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:22 AM on February 1, 2008
According to the omniscient Wikipedia: Balkanization is a geopolitical term originally used to describe the process of fragmentation or division of a region or state into smaller regions or states that are often hostile or non-cooperative with each other. [bolding mine]
I don't know whole lot about NYC, but in Toronto, I can safely visit Bathurst and Steeles, or Jane & Finch, or Cabbagetown or Lower Spadina, etc . And the residents of those areas can safely visit my 'hood (shout out to New Toronto & Mimico (south Etobicoke, represent)- big polish population, a pocket of Somalians, alot of teachers and artists in the small working-class houses) . So - are there lots of different neighbourhoods with distinctive cultural or national identities? hell yes. Are they hostile or non-cooperative? For the most part, NO.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:22 AM on February 1, 2008
Today's development is that Ontario's Premier McGuinty says he opposes plans by Toronto District School Board trustees to create the province's first publicly-funded black-focused school. But he says he won't overrule the contentious proposal.
posted by Artful Codger at 8:55 AM on February 1, 2008
posted by Artful Codger at 8:55 AM on February 1, 2008
I can safely visit…Jane & Finch
Sure, it's safer than parts of New York, but it's got just about the worst gun violence in Canada, doesn't it? So, relative to the rest of Canada, you can't safely visit Jane and Finch. Do you hang out in Regent Park for fun?
Are they hostile or non-cooperative?
That's not even required by your linked definition of balkanization.
posted by oaf at 10:36 AM on February 1, 2008
Sure, it's safer than parts of New York, but it's got just about the worst gun violence in Canada, doesn't it? So, relative to the rest of Canada, you can't safely visit Jane and Finch. Do you hang out in Regent Park for fun?
Are they hostile or non-cooperative?
That's not even required by your linked definition of balkanization.
posted by oaf at 10:36 AM on February 1, 2008
Sure, it's safer than parts of New York, but it's got just about the worst gun violence in Canada, doesn't it? So, relative to the rest of Canada, you can't safely visit Jane and Finch. Do you hang out in Regent Park for fun?
I used to go to Jane and Finch fairly frequently because I lived just off Jane and there was a mall there with a Fabriclands. No one ever bothered me. To be sure, I only went in broad daylight and I would dress down somewhat because I didn't want to look as though I had money (not that *I* think I do — but someone living below the poverty line would differ on that). A former co-worker of mine had a friend who got murdered there in 2000. But then he was trying to buy drugs, which is another thing I didn't do. Yes, Jane and Finch is unsafe "relative to the rest of Canada" — but then that's still pretty safe.
posted by orange swan at 7:50 PM on February 1, 2008
I used to go to Jane and Finch fairly frequently because I lived just off Jane and there was a mall there with a Fabriclands. No one ever bothered me. To be sure, I only went in broad daylight and I would dress down somewhat because I didn't want to look as though I had money (not that *I* think I do — but someone living below the poverty line would differ on that). A former co-worker of mine had a friend who got murdered there in 2000. But then he was trying to buy drugs, which is another thing I didn't do. Yes, Jane and Finch is unsafe "relative to the rest of Canada" — but then that's still pretty safe.
posted by orange swan at 7:50 PM on February 1, 2008
I can safely visit…Jane & Finch
Sure, it's safer than parts of New York, but it's got just about the worst gun violence in Canada. So, relative to the rest of Canada, you can't safely visit Jane and Finch
I can and I have, though not too often.
On a purely semantic basis, you already know that the above statement proves nothing, right? You might infer "degrees" of safety from it, but not a safe/not safe distinction.
Are they hostile or non-cooperative?
That's not even required by your linked definition of balkanization.
No but it is a big part of the definition ("... that are often hostile or non-cooperative with each other."). If that's not what you meant, don't use the word.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:59 PM on February 2, 2008
Sure, it's safer than parts of New York, but it's got just about the worst gun violence in Canada. So, relative to the rest of Canada, you can't safely visit Jane and Finch
I can and I have, though not too often.
On a purely semantic basis, you already know that the above statement proves nothing, right? You might infer "degrees" of safety from it, but not a safe/not safe distinction.
Are they hostile or non-cooperative?
That's not even required by your linked definition of balkanization.
No but it is a big part of the definition ("... that are often hostile or non-cooperative with each other."). If that's not what you meant, don't use the word.
posted by Artful Codger at 12:59 PM on February 2, 2008
« Older Didn't Todd Rundgren try this? | free writing courses Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by jouke at 10:12 PM on January 29, 2008