Sarah Palin as McCain's running-mate
August 29, 2008 7:52 AM Subscribe

Fox, the BBC and CNN have all revealed that Republican US presidential candidate John McCain has picked Alaskan Governor Sarah Palin as his running mate on his 72nd birthday on the eve of the start of Republican National Convention. Despite being wildly popular in Alaska, Palin has recently been involved in an investigation over whether she dismissed a public safety commissioner because he refused to dismiss her former brother-in-law.
posted by HaloMan (5448 comments total) 131 users marked this as a favorite

Palin comparison. Too easy.
posted by ColdChef at 7:57 AM on August 29, 2008 [9 favorites]

a bitty?
posted by yonation at 7:58 AM on August 29, 2008

That CNN link is strong.
posted by Kwantsar at 7:58 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

In 2005, before Palin ran for office, the Palin family accused [ex-brother-in-law]Wooten of drinking a beer while in his patrol car, illegal hunting and firing a Taser at his 11-year-old stepson. The Palins also claimed Wooten threatened to kill Sarah Palin's father.

Jerry! Jerry! Jerry!
posted by ColdChef at 7:59 AM on August 29, 2008 [50 favorites]

Wait, wait, one of the Pythons has been....?

Oh, sorry. I'll get me coat.
posted by Happy Dave at 7:59 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

You beat me to the punch, though this FPP is better than mine would've been! Never heard of this woman, but it's a smart strategy if only to attract those couple-of-million or so PUMAs, the Clintonites who won't vote for Obama. (Not to be confused with cougars, btw).
posted by zardoz at 7:59 AM on August 29, 2008

Oooww, this is gonna be fun to watch at Alegre's Corner.

(Alegre being a Hillary dead-ender whose fervent support of Hillary has been eclipsed by her hate for Obama, ostensibly out of love for Hillary.)
posted by orthogonality at 8:00 AM on August 29, 2008

All snark aside: History is now guaranteed to be made in November. (Perhaps a silver lining in one case, though.)
posted by DU at 8:00 AM on August 29, 2008 [9 favorites]

McCain wants to siphon the disgruntled/woman scorned Hillary vote, I guess.

Obama's speech last night was incredibly moving. America, such an amazing, wonderful place, would do well to elect Obama. He is the dream realized.
posted by plexi at 8:01 AM on August 29, 2008 [21 favorites]

It'll be interesting to see how successful the strategy of trying to siphon off -- or at least create some cognitive dissonance in -- disappointed Hillary supporters will be. My guess is that even the most bitter Hillary supporters won't pull the lever for someone as pro-life as Palin apparently is.
posted by pardonyou? at 8:02 AM on August 29, 2008

who?
posted by pyramid termite at 8:03 AM on August 29, 2008

She admits that she used marijuana when it was legal in Alaska, but says that she did not like it.
posted by R. Mutt at 8:03 AM on August 29, 2008

She was a heartbeat away from being Miss Alaska.
posted by Poolio at 8:06 AM on August 29, 2008 [15 favorites]

First black president or first female vice president? That's awesome.

My two cents, since that's what this thread is I guess: in comparison to Biden, who seems to have been picked for his expertise and experience, Palin seems like the ultimate ploy to hack the vote demographically - women, younger voters, the base - that seems really off to me. Shouldn't we be thinking now more than ever about who is ready to lead this country on day one, not who can get elected? It all just looks like such a nakedly political move to me in a way that Biden's selection really didn't come off as.

Then again, I'm just another rabid Obama fan in our little echo chamber here, so I don't think the campaign cares what I think
posted by Muffpub at 8:06 AM on August 29, 2008 [6 favorites]

Movin' water wiv a bukkit? That's Palin.
posted by Mister_A at 8:06 AM on August 29, 2008 [12 favorites]

She admits that she used marijuana when it was legal in Alaska, but says that she did not like it.

At least she inhaled.
posted by pardonyou? at 8:06 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

All the presidents and VPs in US history have been white and male. That is guaranteed to change this January, barring some freak occurrence, and I think that's awesome.

But is the Christian right really going to accept a mother with a 5-month-old infant going on the campaign trail? I've known too many who think that mothers shouldn't be working at all, or at least not till the kids are in school. And there's no way she's prepard to take over if McCain dies.
posted by Jeanne at 8:07 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

McCain/Palin: Do it for your ovaries.
posted by plexi at 8:07 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

She was crowned Miss Wasilla in 1984 and was a runner-up in the Miss Alaska pageant.
posted by ColdChef at 8:07 AM on August 29, 2008

What's the over/under on how long it takes McCain to flip-flop on his position on drilling in ANWAR? He currently claims to be opposed. She is for. Hmmm... who do you think will win? Not the oil companies, surely?
posted by The Bellman at 8:07 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Sarah and Todd Palin have five children: boys Track, 19, and Trig, 4 months, and daughters Bristol, 17, Willow, 13, and Piper, 7.

Dear GOD! Vice Presidents don't get to NAME anything, do they?!
posted by ColdChef at 8:09 AM on August 29, 2008 [215 favorites]

Her?
posted by mjthomas at 8:10 AM on August 29, 2008 [13 favorites]

So Hillary was cheering for Obama to lose so she can have her run in 2012. Now what? If Obama loses, You have McCain for 4-8 years, then you have to run against Palin, another woman and the sitting Vice President. Not only does this cinch the election for McCain, it completely screws over and buries Clinton. Her dream of being the first female President just got a lot harder.
posted by loquax at 8:10 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

Very smart choice by McCain. I mean, sure, nobody knows anything about her, but she covers his biggest flaws: too old, and more of the same. Honestly, is there anyone else he could have picked that anyone would be excited about at all?

(Although, the talking heads are going to have a field day with the beauty queen angle.)
posted by designbot at 8:10 AM on August 29, 2008

I have this dreadful feeling that America *will* vote for ~~four~~ eight years more of McBush. Obama seems a bit too good to be true, and a adding a somewhat 'progressive' (if an anti-abortion, life-time member of NRA can be called that) swing to his campaign... my somewhat bitter money is on McCain winning this thing.

Also, she (hopefully unfairly) reminds me of Mrs. Kitty Farmer from Donnie Darko.
posted by Harry at 8:10 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Twenty bucks says Lorne Michaels gets Tina Fey to play her on SNL. It's uncanny!
posted by ColdChef at 8:11 AM on August 29, 2008 [34 favorites]

Hah! I can't wait until the former Hillary supporters decide that having two X chromosomes is more important than any conceivable position on the issues. Four more years! 100 more years of war! Woohoo!

What's Bizzare is that some of the really hard-core Hillary types have been demanding that Obama not pick any other woman.

Sarah Palin is totally out of left Feild, some people were expecting McCain to pick Kay Bailey Hutchison or even Meg Whitman, along with the usual suspects of Pawlenty or Lieberman or Tom Ridge.

I don't know that much about Palin, I do know she got into office after defeating seriously corrupt incumbent (Lisa Merkowski's father, IIRC) in the republican primary.
posted by delmoi at 8:12 AM on August 29, 2008

Shouldn't we be thinking now more than ever about who is ready to lead this country on day one, not who can get elected?

Don't be silly. I'd take a milf over smarmy Joe Biden any day.
posted by jsavimbi at 8:12 AM on August 29, 2008

Might as well start:

...and this spring she gave birth to her fifth child, who was found to have Down syndrome.

Uh-huh. 44 years old and four kids aren't enough? Did she not get the memo about the high chance of Down's Syndrome for babies born by older (over 35 I believe) women? I imagine wanting to have as many kids as possible has something to do with her religious beliefs. Probably everything to do with her religious beliefs.

The investigation outlined in that last link sounds like an episode of COPS. Real class act we got here. She is easy on the eyes, though, which can only help her TV presence.

And yes, she really was Miss Congeniality. No, really.
posted by zardoz at 8:14 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

And there's no way she's prepard to take over if McCain dies.

I've heard this from a number of times already, and I don't think the Obama supporters making this claim realize how ridiculous it sounds coming from them. Four years as a Senator is plenty of experience, but two years of governorship? No way she's prepared.
posted by Kwantsar at 8:14 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

MCCAIN CHOOSES YOUNGER WOMAN.

Cindy said to be worried.
posted by djgh at 8:14 AM on August 29, 2008 [15 favorites]

I question the wisdom of this choice from a McCain perspective. You'll get some PUMAs, sure, but it severely undercuts the Republicans' main line of attack against Obama: that he's not experienced enough. Has Palin ever been outside of the country? Met a foreign leader?

Also: how long before we see footage of the Miss Alaska pageant juxtaposed with a scary attack-ad narrator reminding Americans that the presidency is "not a beauty pageant"?
posted by sy at 8:15 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Not only does this cinch the election for McCain...

What.

she ~~covers~~accentuates his biggest flaws: too old,

FTFY
posted by DU at 8:15 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

In a near 50/50 split, all the Republicans would need is a bunch of crooked voting machines.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 8:16 AM on August 29, 2008 [7 favorites]

I heard they are sending Palin to Russia to sort out this war!

That would be a weird scoop
posted by Harry at 8:16 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

"Senator McCain, where is your VP candidate from?"

"Alaska"

"No, I'm asking YOU the question, Senator."
posted by flashboy at 8:16 AM on August 29, 2008 [89 favorites]

In a near 50/50 split, all the Republicans would need is a small number of Hillary supporters who cared more about what Hillary represented than her policies to switch over. The man is crazy like a fox.

That's what Im thinking. A lot of women who may reluctantly vote Democrat or who dont usually vote will come out in droves to vote for another women, solely on gender. If that gets McCain an extra half percent in 2 or 3 strategic states then he just won. I think this is a genius move.

I feel that Obama just lost or that this race will be decided on a razor thin margin.
posted by damn dirty ape at 8:16 AM on August 29, 2008

Clearly McCain's got a thing for beauty queens.
posted by hydrophonic at 8:17 AM on August 29, 2008

Wait, what... McCain selected Harriet Myers as his VP?
posted by GhostintheMachine at 8:17 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I have that same dread. But maybe (just maybe) Obama can actually get the younger demographic to come out and !(@!& vote on what is probably the most important elected position on this planet.
posted by Harry at 8:18 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

According to Wikipedia she eats moose burgers. Recipe here
posted by randomination at 8:18 AM on August 29, 2008

Two years ago she was the mayor of Wasilla, Alaska (named after a pagan god), pop. 8,471.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:18 AM on August 29, 2008

experience: She has none. Palin is utterly unqualified to be president of the U.S. Senate, let alone the country should anything befall McCain.

She’s a former beauty pageant winner who’s done multiple cover shoots for fashion and culture magazines

Take a gander at Fox News sometime. Do you think any of those peroxide blondes have ever taken a journalism course?

Joe Republican wants gays to stay in San Francisco, a closet full of guns, and a TV full of war and pretty women. If "experience" or "qualifications' were any sort of requirement Republicans would never win.
posted by plexi at 8:18 AM on August 29, 2008 [12 favorites]

Looks like a pretty naked attempt to go after the Ellen Jamesian Society vote -- voters so blinded with anger and bitterness about the primary loss to Obama, that they'll vote for McCain just out of spite, even against the exhortations of their own messiah -- on McCain's part.

I do not think that this cohort is statistically significant in anyway, so it won't work. It's a blown opportunity for McCain.

I was really hoping for Lieberman, if for no other reason than for an opportunity to see both of these demagogic jackasses run out of the country on a rail come November.
posted by psmealey at 8:18 AM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

I gather she hates bears.
posted by twsf at 8:19 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Uh-huh. 44 years old and four kids aren't enough? Did she not get the memo about the high chance of Down's Syndrome for babies born by older (over 35 I believe) women? I imagine wanting to have as many kids as possible has something to do with her religious beliefs. Probably everything to do with her religious beliefs.

Sarah Palin appears to be an inexperienced politician chosen primarily for short-sighted demographic appeal. But (imho, of course) it's completely distasteful to criticize her for wanting to have children, or for having the misfortunate to have a disabled child. Quite frankly, I found her quoted response about her child in the Wikipedia article:

"I'm looking at him right now, and I see perfection," Palin said. "Yeah, he has an extra chromosome. I keep thinking, in our world, what is normal and what is perfect?"

To be quite inspiring.
posted by pardonyou? at 8:20 AM on August 29, 2008 [31 favorites]

Wow. If there was any doubt that this whole election is about identity politics, that's pretty much gone now.

Problem is - McCain is old. Are Republicans really going to be okay with this woman as President?

He's playing to the undecideds, here, but he risks losing his Republican base.

I heard that he might pick her on NPR this morning. The only clue? Someone had updated the wikipedia article about her and then quickly changed it back....
posted by lunit at 8:20 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Thank you.
posted by Daddy-O at 8:21 AM on August 29, 2008

It's gonna take a lot of popcorn and beer and a real comfortable chair to sit and watch the next few months.....
posted by HuronBob at 8:22 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

"I'm looking at him right now, and I see perfection," Palin said. "Yeah, he has an extra chromosome. I keep thinking, in our world, what is normal and what is perfect?"

"Thank God he's not gay, amirite?" she added.
posted by notmydesk at 8:22 AM on August 29, 2008 [64 favorites]

Celebrity: She’s a former beauty pageant winner who’s done multiple cover shoots for fashion and culture magazines and her claim to fame is being the subject of an article titled “America’s Hottest Governor.” There will be more talk about how she’s attractive than her actual policy credentials. Her gender, in light of her utter political weakness, will be seen blatantly- and rightly- as the novelty McCain picked it for. There is no clearer a celebrity pick for McCain than this one.

I also wonder if that's going to seriously backfire with the PUMA types as well, I mean if these older women are upset about all the men that they feel have gotten an easier time in life because of their gender, how are they going to feel about a beautiful woman getting ahead based on her looks, rather then her "hard work". Hillary was never about good looks and glamor.

I mean I don't know at all, but I imagine that some of those women are going to feel that she was picked for her looks, since she really doesn't have much experience. Certainly doesn't compare to Biden or even Obama himself.
posted by delmoi at 8:23 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I've heard this from a number of times already, and I don't think the Obama supporters making this claim realize how ridiculous it sounds coming from them. Four years as a Senator is plenty of experience, but two years of governorship? No way she's prepared.

From wikipedia:

Palin's experience: After being selected as the runner up in the 1984 Miss Alaska contest, Palin served two terms on the Wasilla, Alaska City Council from 1992 to 1996, was elected mayor of Wasilla in 1996, and ran unsuccessfully for Lieutenant Governor in 2002.

After charging ethical violations by state Republican Party leaders,[2] she won election in 2006 by first defeating the incumbent governor in the Republican primary, then a former Democratic Alaskan governor in the general election.

Obama's experience: A graduate of Columbia University and Harvard Law School, where he served as president of the Harvard Law Review, Obama worked as a community organizer and practiced as a civil rights attorney before serving in the Illinois Senate from 1997 to 2004. He taught constitutional law at the University of Chicago Law School from 1992 to 2004. Following an unsuccessful bid for a seat in the U.S. House of Representatives in 2000, he announced his campaign for the U.S. Senate in January 2003. After a primary victory in March 2004, Obama delivered the keynote address at the Democratic National Convention in July 2004. He was elected to the Senate in November 2004 with 70% of the vote.

As a member of the Democratic minority in the 109th Congress, he helped create legislation to control conventional weapons and to promote greater public accountability in the use of federal funds. He also made official trips to Eastern Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. During the 110th Congress, he helped create legislation regarding lobbying and electoral fraud, climate change, nuclear terrorism, and care for returned U.S. military personnel. After announcing his presidential campaign in February 2007, Obama emphasized withdrawing American troops from Iraq, energy independence, decreasing the influence of lobbyists, and promoting universal health care as top national priorities.

Who sounds more qualified to be President?
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 8:24 AM on August 29, 2008 [24 favorites]

She's a spokesmodel for the conservative right. It's a smart, if revolting, pick.
posted by argybarg at 8:25 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I don't like Sarah Palin. I admit it's something of a pet issue of mine, but her wildlife management practices in Alaska are horrible. After Alaskan voters voted against aerial hunting of wolves, she went against the will of the people by adding a bounty for wolf kills.

I'm sick to death of this entire "presidential race" and I wish they could just get things over with and let the Republicans steal the election now so we can all go back to our lives already.
posted by infinitywaltz at 8:25 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

How tough will Joe Biden be able to get on her in the debate without people calling him a sexist pig? (Notwithstanding his voting record and the whole violence against women legislation thing or anything that actually makes sense)
posted by wabbittwax at 8:25 AM on August 29, 2008

Who sounds more qualified to be President?
posted by Fuzzy Monster

Hyuk. Garsh. The purdy one!!!
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 8:26 AM on August 29, 2008

I also wonder if that's going to seriously backfire with the PUMA types as well, I mean if these older women are upset about all the men that they feel have gotten an easier time in life because of their gender, how are they going to feel about a beautiful woman getting ahead based on her looks, rather then her "hard work".

Hey, in John McCain's time, this was social progress.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:26 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

> In a near 50/50 split, all the Republicans would need is a bunch of crooked voting machines.

You're living in the past, Fuzzy Monster. It's just like that rainforest scare a few years back. Our officials saw there was a problem and they fixed it, didn't they?
posted by The Card Cheat at 8:27 AM on August 29, 2008

"I still can’t answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?"

-- Sarah Palin, on being the possible vice presidential nominee
posted by Rhaomi at 8:28 AM on August 29, 2008 [13 favorites]

Bumbling, old senator as President, and the hot, young moose-burger-eating Governor from Alaska as VP?

I've got a great idea for a sitcom.
posted by R. Mutt at 8:28 AM on August 29, 2008 [25 favorites]

I can't wait for the VP debates. "Governor Palin, Recent polls have shown a fifth of Americans can't locate the U.S. on a world map. Why do you think this is?"
posted by hydrophonic at 8:28 AM on August 29, 2008 [29 favorites]

Remember when GHWB picked Dan Quale as his Vice Presidential running mate? People have been saying ever since that it was a misstep. This is an even bigger misstep and John McCain doesn't have the horsepower and momentum to overcome such an obviously poor choice. Experience and judgement indeed.
posted by Daddy-O at 8:29 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Rhaomi: ""I still can’t answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?"

-- Sarah Palin, on being the possible vice presidential nominee"

Source please.
posted by geekyguy at 8:29 AM on August 29, 2008

I've had this nagging fear all along that McCain was going to win no matter what Obama did. Now I know he is. This is indeed a brilliant PR move and yes, this election is historic no matter what.

*sigh* The first woman VP is pretty awesome. I just wish it could be from a campaign that wasn't going to flush America further down the toilet.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 8:29 AM on August 29, 2008

LONGBOAT VEEP
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 8:29 AM on August 29, 2008 [10 favorites]

come again?
posted by photoslob at 8:30 AM on August 29, 2008

But (imho, of course) it's completely distasteful to criticize her for wanting to have children, or for having the misfortunate to have a disabled child.

I am criticizing her for wanting to have children, but what does that have to do with having a disabled child? Please don't conflate these two things. I think it is a fair criticism to question a woman who is 44 years of age, and therefore more likely to have a disabled child. Her decision to have a child in the first place put the child at risk before he/she was even born. I dunno, maybe I'm cranky at the motives of religious types these days, but just because someone wants to be a mother doesn't automatically make it a good idea.
posted by zardoz at 8:31 AM on August 29, 2008 [22 favorites]

Shouldn't we be thinking now more than ever about who is ready to lead this country on day one, not who can get elected? It all just looks like such a nakedly political move to me in a way that Biden's selection really didn't come off as.

What are you talking about? The McCain camp has critized Obama as being too young and inexperienced in foreign policy, and not ready to lead, so Obama chose someone who can offset those charges -- someone who is old and experienced and has lots of foreign policy experience. Of course it was a political move to pick him. Pick the person who can most help you win the election. I mean, duh.

Obama's camp has critized McCain for being old and stuffy and too much like George Bush, and one of McCain's biggest weaknesses is in not being seen as someone who will bring about change, someone who cares about little people, someone who will bring in the breath of fresh air that Obama is seen as. Palin could not be further from George Bush and Washington. She has the same youth that Obama has and McCain lacks. She is a big reformer in Alaska, and is supposedly the most popular Governor in the US. The fact that she may appeal to the ex-Hillary voters is frankly a brilliantly political move. And it reinforces his reputation as a maverick, something the Democrats have been trying to erase during the convention.

I don't usually mind it, and I guess I don't mind it so much in this thread, either, but it is clear to me that Metafilter is so partisan that it can't really view election issues clearly or with any distance. This was a really smart move for McCain, as long as she doesn't have something in her past that will come back to bite him. This next week and the Republican convention might be tough for Democrats.
posted by onlyconnect at 8:31 AM on August 29, 2008 [7 favorites]

I've gathered some immediate reactions from around the liberal blogosphere, illustrated by pictures of faceless, featureless DC Comics superheroine The Question.
posted by gerryblog at 8:32 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'll work my fingers to the bone for Obama, but this is depressing. Palin is good shtick -- imagine the convention address, the mooseburger recipes, etc. She'll be a horrible VP, but she's politically good pick.
posted by argybarg at 8:32 AM on August 29, 2008

pardonyou? writes "'I'm looking at him right now, and I see perfection,' Palin said. 'Yeah, he has an extra chromosome. I keep thinking, in our world, what is normal and what is perfect?'"

Lots of Rupublican compassion for an extra chromosome, not so much for men born liking show-tunes and cock.
posted by orthogonality at 8:32 AM on August 29, 2008 [19 favorites]

Well, they won with Quayle.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:32 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

My $1.99 opinion: It's a desperation move. Someone who can make the ticket look younger and whom they hope will pull just enough PUMA votes away from the Obama-Biden ticket. I also think they are hoping her looks and personality will take some of the attention off McCain. Clearly, they are tightly managing his interviews and appearances...and for good reason!
posted by jleisek at 8:32 AM on August 29, 2008

Her previous office was the mayor of an Alaskan town with a population smaller than 3,000 people.

The GOP is sick of your lies. The town has 8,000 people now!
posted by Ironmouth at 8:32 AM on August 29, 2008

geekyguy: "Source please."

Here you go. (@2:50)
posted by Rhaomi at 8:33 AM on August 29, 2008 [15 favorites]

"Thank God he's not gay, amirite?" she added.

Joke acknowledged, but she's not as conservative on that issue as you might think (which may actually end up causing a problem with ultra-conservatives):

She opposes same-sex marriage, but she has stated that she has gay friends and is receptive to gay and lesbian concerns about discrimination. While the previous administration did not implement same-sex benefits, Palin complied with a state Supreme Court order and signed them into law...Palin's first veto was used to block legislation that would have barred the state from granting benefits to gay state employees and their partners. In effect, her veto granted State of Alaska benefits to same-sex couples. The veto occurred after Palin consulted with Alaska's attorney general on the constitutionality of the legislation

on preview: same point to orthogonality
posted by pardonyou? at 8:33 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

This was a really smart move for McCain, as long as she doesn't have something in her past that will come back to bite him.

oops!.

This is a desperation pick folks.
posted by Ironmouth at 8:34 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

P-A-N-D-E-R-I-N-G.
posted by agregoli at 8:36 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

brilliant pick; even more brilliant given the fact that many, many Hillary voters saw Hillary as a step in the direction of women's rights. These voters aren't policy voters; they're visceral voters. That's why people still don't understand why Kerry lost in 2004. Voters are more visceral than most think; instead of fighting that ( like dems do), repulicans embrace it, and win. Our voting populace may be stupid, and we may elect corrupt bastards, but Dems have been so inept at understanding voter thinking that they think they'll win on the issues. McCain has such a great shot now.
posted by SeizeTheDay at 8:36 AM on August 29, 2008 [8 favorites]

The smartest thing that McCain has done so far. Kudos to him for not selecting the "obvious" choices (Pawlenty, Ridge, etc). Palin brings energy, "youth," interesting background, and personality to the campaign.
posted by davidmsc at 8:38 AM on August 29, 2008

Palin faces probe.

That just sounds naisty!
posted by ColdChef at 8:38 AM on August 29, 2008

>Lots of Rupublican compassion for an extra chromosome, not so much for men born liking show-tunes and cock.

What? Where is this gay gene? Science explains homosexuality as being sourced for a slew of issues and we have seen that twins with identical DNA do not fall into the same sex preference. Its highly highly disingenuous to compare down's syndrome to homosexuality. That doesnt make homosexuality a choice, but we cant keep spreading the convenient lie that its no different than downs or hemophilia for bullshit political points. It makes your side look bad. Real bad.
posted by damn dirty ape at 8:38 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

This is a new era in American history. No matter who wins, a long-standing barrier will be broken. At long last, a non-contiguous state will be represented in the White House!

If only Eisenhower was still here to see the realization of his beautiful dream. *sniff*
posted by designbot at 8:39 AM on August 29, 2008 [16 favorites]

Source please.

Via Politico:

Larry Kudlow of CNBC’s “Kudlow & Co.” asked her about the possibility of becoming McCain's ticket mate.
Palin replied: “As for that VP talk all the time, I’ll tell you, I still can’t answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the VP does every day? I’m used to being very productive and working real hard in an administration. We want to make sure that that VP slot would be a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans and for the things that we’re trying to accomplish up here for the rest of the U.S., before I can even start addressing that question.”

On preview: Rhaomi found the vid.
posted by mjthomas at 8:40 AM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

I've been carrying on a conversation with my sister all morning about who we wanter to see as McCain's VP. (we're both liberal Democrats.) My best-case scenario for Dems was Palin:

1. The Repubs just lost the "Obama hasn't got the experience" issue,

2. I can't wait to see her head to head against Biden in the debates.

3. I've always thought the PUMA issue was BS. Now McCain looks like he's pandering.
posted by Mcable at 8:40 AM on August 29, 2008

I guess McCain gets to put his "Maverick" hat back on.
posted by ColdChef at 8:41 AM on August 29, 2008

Hey! Here's a female politician it's okay to hate! And she's pretty! Let's break out the sexism!
posted by lunit at 8:43 AM on August 29, 2008 [20 favorites]

It really doesn't matter who John McCain picks.
John McCain could choose a former beauty queen from Alaska as a running mate and he'd still win this election.

Wait...
posted by sour cream at 8:43 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

Weird, just weird. So far, this is the most confusing moment in this election cycle.

The effects of this are unpredictable.

It's like Obama upped the ante on the turn last night, forcing McCain, down on chips and with a mediocre hand, to decide whether to give up a substantial pot or gamble and go all in. This is McCain going all in.
posted by C.Batt at 8:44 AM on August 29, 2008 [8 favorites]

This was a really smart move for McCain

I can't disagree with this more. She is a political lightweight, is in no way qualified to be president, and this decision will completely torpedo John McCain's claim to good judgement and the value of experience. If she makes the mistake of attempting to take Biden on in a debate, she will be utterly humiliated. Think John Connally eviscerated Dan Quayle? Just you wait.
posted by Daddy-O at 8:44 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

On preview: XQUZYPHYR nailed it.
posted by Mcable at 8:44 AM on August 29, 2008

Think John Connally eviscerated Dan Quayle? Just you wait.

I'd love to hear Biden say this: "I knew Dan Quayle. I served in the senate with Dan Quayle. You are no Dan Quayle."
posted by Mcable at 8:46 AM on August 29, 2008 [35 favorites]

On preview: XQUZYPHYR nailed it.

Seriously.
posted by gerryblog at 8:46 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

when did Alaska become a state? I thought it was still a territory.
posted by Postroad at 8:47 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

No, this is not good for Biden in the debates.

Mitt Romney or Tim Pawlenty, Biden could have wiped the floor with, no holds barred. But where are people's sympathies going to lie when they see an angry old man yelling at the nice, pretty hockey mom who only had a few weeks to get ready before being thrust into the national spotlight?
posted by designbot at 8:47 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

I guess Susan Collins, Christie Todd Whitman, Oympia Snowe, and Elizabeth Dole were busy.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:48 AM on August 29, 2008 [22 favorites]

"I still can’t answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the V.P. does every day?"

Well, to be fair no one really knows what the V.P does every day, it's kind of a job you get to define in your own terms with the President. On the one hand you have Cheney, on the other you have Quayle. Some are powerful, some are not.
posted by delmoi at 8:48 AM on August 29, 2008

Or...

"I know Hillary Clinton. Hillary Clinton is a friend of mine...."
posted by R. Mutt at 8:48 AM on August 29, 2008 [7 favorites]

Hillary voters saw Hillary as a step in the direction of women's rights. These voters aren't policy voters; they're visceral voters. That's why people still don't understand why Kerry lost in 2004. Voters are more visceral than most think; instead of fighting that ( like dems do), repulicans embrace it, and win.

Hillary voters didn't just vote for a woman, they voted for Hillary Clinton. There's a big difference. Many of them have been following her political career for over a decade, and won't be likely to jump ship to some other woman in politics. If she campaigns strongly against Palin, she has a very good chance of defusing this momentum.

And as far as visceral, GWB won in 2004 off of the Evangelical vote. Many of those same people voted for Huckabee in the primaries this year rather than McCain. And many of those same people probably don't like the idea of having a woman president. I think this pick will lose more voters for McCain than it gains.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:48 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

It's gonna take a lot of popcorn and beer and a real comfortable chair to sit and watch the next few months.....
indeed!
LOL
posted by a3matrix at 8:49 AM on August 29, 2008

pardonyou? writes "on preview: same point to orthogonality"

Point taken, thanks for the correction.

But note I said "Republican compassion", not "Palin's compassion". Now, since she's pro-life but doesn't hate the gays, so it'll be interesting to see how the Fundies (who don't much like McCain) react to his choice. If he's gained Hillary dead-endrs with Palin but further eroded th Republican base's support, is this a net gain?

I mean, the Fundie base will man your phonebanks and vote. I can't see most of the Hillary dead-enders (other than the public faces of PUMA, who are probably mainly Republican operatives anyway) manning, er, womanning the phone banks. They might vote McCain to spite Obama, but they aren't going to make phone calls for an anti-choice candidate.
posted by orthogonality at 8:49 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I can't fathom anyone actually buying into this crap. What a joke.
posted by fusinski at 8:50 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

What a weird choice. An unknown, inexperienced woman from the back of beyond, tainted with the whiff of scandal.

The Republicans either don't want to be elected (can't blame them; the mess that needs to be cleaned up is horrifying) or are so cock-sure about cheating themselves into rule that they can mock the electorate.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:52 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

She is a political lightweight...

One wonders how fast she'll be on her feet in front of the national press. Can she take a curveball with both feet out of her mouth?
posted by DU at 8:52 AM on August 29, 2008

But, can she spell 'potato?'
posted by ericb at 8:52 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

"Senator McCain, where is your VP candidate from?"

"Alaska"

"No, I'm asking YOU the question, Senator."

"Juneau."

"No, I DON'T know—that's why I'm asking!"
posted by Atom Eyes at 8:53 AM on August 29, 2008 [36 favorites]

Meg Whitman, Carly Fiorina, and Condoleeza Rice were busy, too.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:54 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

Good god I am peeing myself waiting for the debate with Biden now.

I was thinking the exact same thing. His experience and ability to quickly cut deep with his words? It's going to be like watching a fight between an attack dog and a balloon.
posted by quin at 8:54 AM on August 29, 2008 [17 favorites]

If Hilary campaigns against Palin, going on record as to why Palin is no substitute for herself and that one is better to vote Obama, I doubt there's going to be much crossover voting.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:56 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

But where are people's sympathies going to lie when they see an angry old man yelling at the nice, pretty hockey mom who only had a few weeks to get ready before being thrust into the national spotlight?

There is no way he'll yell. He won't intimidate and he won't push hard. Quiet gravitas and appeals to experience, the very themes McCain has been hammering home as essential to this election, will be enough to wilt this pick.

Seriously, you have to wonder what these people are thinking. They push the celebrity line and then McCain undercuts it with his seven homes stumble. They push the experience line and McCain undercuts it by picking a running mate with next to no experience. The underlying anxiety about his candidacy is his age and his fading faculties, a concern which is only exacerbated by this choice. Obama is making decisive moves. He's building an organization and addressing his weaknesses on the national stage. Against that, McCain's campaign begins to look very small.

Also, how can Palin ever hope to fill this suit?
posted by felix betachat at 8:58 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Why is everyone assuming she'll do so poorly in the debates? Because she's a pretty woman?
posted by Perplexity at 8:58 AM on August 29, 2008 [7 favorites]

lunit: Wow. If there was any doubt that this whole election is about identity politics, that's pretty much gone now.

In spite of the disagreeable fractiousness of identity politics, which feels like the play-at-home version of corporate special interests, I sense something else in picks like this - a refined political theater that decouples the identity from the politics. That they can win public approval by fulfilling the pattern of "first woman X" without substantively bending to any associated policy is now obvious to them - I submit the Bush administration's very own Black female Secretary of State. Others have already pointed out Palin's stance on abortion.

It's worse than voting for someone who looks like me because I expect preferential representation. It's voting for someone who looks like me for the sympathetic magic, for the drama, for the vicarious hell of it.
posted by kid ichorous at 8:59 AM on August 29, 2008 [6 favorites]

"All the presidents and VPs in US history have been white and male."

Yes, and if I'm remembering right, so have all the first ladies. Palin's husband is Yupik.
posted by merelyglib at 8:59 AM on August 29, 2008

As long as Biden can maintain the "hate the sin, not the sinner" approach that was (imho) well established during the convention, he ought to be able to attack her as firmly on the issues as he would've Romney or Pawlenty.
posted by feloniousmonk at 9:00 AM on August 29, 2008

Why is everyone assuming she'll do so poorly in the debates? Because she's a pretty woman?

Why do you assume that's the only basis on which to doubt her performance in the debates?
posted by felix betachat at 9:00 AM on August 29, 2008 [26 favorites]

Here's a female politician it's okay to hate! And she's pretty! Let's break out the sexism!

Suggesting that someone is sexist because they don't like the Anti-Choice, creationist person who counts a beauty contest as election experience is like saying that because you don't care for Obama's healthcare plan, you are a racist.
posted by ColdChef at 9:00 AM on August 29, 2008 [57 favorites]

I just took two minutes out of my day to read up on her bio: this person has never had a job. Either this is a joke, or the GOP brass are the only ones in the know that the occupants of the White House are merely trade representatives of USA, Inc., and when it comes to peddling crap, it's better to offer something better to look at than your competition.
posted by jsavimbi at 9:01 AM on August 29, 2008

All the first ladies have been white males?! Well, that explains Eleanor Roosevelt.
posted by ColdChef at 9:02 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

Quite frankly, I found her quoted response about her child in the Wikipedia article:

"I'm looking at him right now, and I see perfection," Palin said. "Yeah, he has an extra chromosome. I keep thinking, in our world, what is normal and what is perfect?"

To be quite inspiring.

Apart from the amazing and apparently unself-conscious irony of this statement in the mouth of a beauty pageant contestant, I'd be more inclined to agree if it weren't for the fact that all people with Down syndrome develop Alzheimer disease in ther forties or early fifties.
posted by jamjam at 9:02 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

This is a really poor choice, IMO. Disgruntled PUMA's were going to vote for McCain anyway, and voters who wanted Clinton because of her history of "being a fighter" and a champion of women's rights are not going to be pleased with obvious pandering. Anyone who has the least concern about electing a 72 year old President is not going to be comforted by the thought of a former Alaskan governor with hardly any experience running the country. I think the campaign shot itself in the foot.
posted by oneirodynia at 9:02 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

oops!.

Are you kidding me? The possible "scandal" is that she might — might — have abused her authority to try to get a cop who drove drunk on the job and tasered his 11-year-old kid fired. I'm sure people are going to be really fucking up in arms over that one. Come the fuck on. If it comes out during the campaign that she did do it, watch her positives jump as the campaign frames her as being hounded by meddling Democratic investigators for taking a bad cop off the street and if she had to bend a few rules to do it, well, that's just how effing mavericky she is ain't it?

Think John Connally eviscerated Dan Quayle? Just you wait.

You mean former vice president Dan Quayle? The guy who won?

Or, what onlyconnect said.
posted by enn at 9:03 AM on August 29, 2008 [8 favorites]

I wouldn't be surprised if someone in the Obama campaign suggested preparing an ad with the video of Palin saying she needs someone to tell her what the VP does and the suggestion was shot down because no way would McCain make such a poor choice.

The Hillary supporters are going to be insulted that McCain made such a bad choice just to pander to women. I'm glad that Obama didn't pick Hillary as his VP, but it would have been killer diller to watch Hillary smash Palin in such a one sided debate.
posted by Daddy-O at 9:03 AM on August 29, 2008

Why is everyone assuming she'll do so poorly in the debates? Because she's a pretty woman?

Yes, it's entirely a sexist thing, and has nothing to do with her lack of experience. Now quick, use the widest brush you have to tar "the left" for being sexist.

Is it December yet?
posted by Remy at 9:03 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

I heard that there are so few women in Alaska that a "ten" is a four that brings a six-pack.
posted by Bitter soylent at 9:04 AM on August 29, 2008 [15 favorites]

Trophy running mate? To go with the trophy wife, no?
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:05 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

I can't believe how many apparent Lefties on this site are so eager to trip over themselves in anguish over this "brilliant" move, like McCain has somehow locked up the election or something with this move.

As XQUZYPHYR said, "Really?"

Looks like a desperation move to me. What's she bringing to the table other than "woman"? And how is this pick going to bring the Evangelical Right, who already dislike McCain, back into the fold?

Folks, this election is not even going to be close. Mark my words.
posted by mkultra at 9:06 AM on August 29, 2008 [6 favorites]

What are the other reasons? Why would lack of experience correlate with being bad at debating?
posted by Perplexity at 9:06 AM on August 29, 2008

[I]t is clear to me that Metafilter is so partisan that it can't really view election issues clearly or with any distance. This was a really smart move for McCain, as long as she doesn't have something in her past that will come back to bite him. This next week and the Republican convention might be tough for Democrats.

Palin was named on Veep lists (and future Pres. lists) a year or two ago, but not recently at all. From a purely pragmatic and political standpoint, the female Veep possibilities were "supposed" to be either Meg Whitman or Kay Bailey Hutchinson. The conventional wisdom has been that Palin was off the table because of her ongoing ethics scandal, it would grossly highlight's McCain's age, fallout from McCain's own hammering Obama on the experience/"ready to lead" issue would land on her as well, she adds little following, name-recognition, or clout to the ticket other than being fairly unobjectionable to the Republican base, and Palin herself has not made any deliberate play for or even demonstrated any interest in the position given that she's been busy taking care of her newborn. In short, she was eliminated from virtually all political insiders' first-tier picks for many, many reasons when she was looked at under cold, objective light a number of months ago. "Smart" is definitely overstating the case for choosing Palin, but "desperate" is being too uncharitable. Let's call a spade a spade: Palin as the VP pick would be extremely risky. I think a pick like this would say more about the McCain camp's own view of their current position, the other VP possibilities, and the expected trajectory of the rest of the campaign than anything else.

It's not the team sitting on a safe lead that calls for a Hail Mary -- but then again, the play's been known to win many a game. It's not exactly a smart play, but not quite as desperate as an onside kick or faked punt, either. It's a risky, usually unsuccessful maneuver that occasionally reaps massive dividends. Palin means McCain is a gambling man.
posted by DaShiv at 9:06 AM on August 29, 2008 [58 favorites]

An awful lot of you seem to be assuming that women voters are shallow idiots, and that PUMAs are more than an invention of Fox News.
posted by QIbHom at 9:07 AM on August 29, 2008 [28 favorites]

But (imho, of course) it's completely distasteful to criticize her for wanting to have children, or for having the misfortunate to have a disabled child.

I think the really pertinent thing here is that her fifth child was born in April 2008, and she returned to work just three days after giving birth.

Obama has been a strong critic of the fact that the US is basically the only "first world" nation that fails to provide paid leave for new mothers. I have to wonder what Palin's view on parental leave is, given the example she's set that basically says to mothers "hey, its not that hard. Just go back to work. You can do it if you try hard enough."
posted by anastasiav at 9:07 AM on August 29, 2008 [7 favorites]

A seemingly brilliant move, but in reality, a 100% cynical choice.
posted by interrobang at 9:07 AM on August 29, 2008

Well, if nothing else this clarifies the contours of the crossroads America's arrived at. So which path will it be, America? Which version of yourself will you embrace in this dark hour? Are you the keepers of the bright and perpetual flame of enlightenment values and constitutional democracy, or are you a reality TV show cast handing out free junk food?
posted by gompa at 9:07 AM on August 29, 2008 [6 favorites]

zardoz: Her decision to have a child in the first place
It is quite likely that she did not decide to have a child, but that she became pregnant. It happens. Whatever the case, it is non of our business. Did you remark on the number of McCains children, and the fact that it is risky to have a child at a later age as a father (he was 55) in the threads about his nomination?

I found your Did she not get the memo about the high chance of Down's Syndrome for babies born by older (over 35 I believe) women? incredibly offensive. What exactly do you mean? Women who are older than 35 should not have children? Children with Down's syndrome should not exist? Women who get a child with Down syndrome are somehow stupid?
posted by davar at 9:07 AM on August 29, 2008 [27 favorites]

It's like Obama upped the ante on the turn last night, forcing McCain, down on chips and with a mediocre hand ...

What on earth are you talking about, "down on chips"?
For all I know, the media are yapping about how McCain closed the gap in the polls despite the Democratic convention and might be even leading now (although personally, I don't trust the polls and think they are one half skewed and the other half made up on the fly). He's poised to win.

quin on Biden: His experience and ability to quickly cut deep with his words? It's going to be like watching a fight between an attack dog and a balloon.

And this is why Biden will lose the debates. Nobody likes the attack dog who picked on the pretty girl. It's a situation where Biden cannot possibly score any points. Not that it matters much, since noone would choose Obama just because his VP candidate did good on the debates anyway. The situation is different for McCain, though, since there are enough idiots in the US that will make their choice solely based on gender, race or sexual history of the candidate, completely irregardless of their policy. The Republicans have figured this out better than the Dems.
posted by sour cream at 9:08 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Why is everyone assuming she'll do so poorly in the debates? Because she's a pretty woman?

No, it's because she doesn't have much experience and doesn't seem to know what the VP even does. That's 10th grade Government class basics, and she wants to BE the VP? Holy cow, McCain is DONE.
posted by Daddy-O at 9:09 AM on August 29, 2008

I also think the pick reflects McCain's intense displeasure at being upstaged by anyone, particularly his VP choice.

And how is this pick going to bring the Evangelical Right, who already dislike McCain, back into the fold?

Sarah Palin thinks creationism should be taught alongside evolution in schools. She's anti-choice. This is definitely a fundie pander as well.
posted by oneirodynia at 9:09 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

I was going to write something, but XQUZYPHYR, wrote it for me.
posted by rmmcclay at 9:09 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

More and more, I think the Republican party is deliberately throwing this election. They don't want to do the dirty work of cleaning up after Bush. It's going to be a difficult, costly, unpopular job, and I bet they're counting on the pain it causes to be such that it destroys the Democrats chances for re-election. They're giving up four years in return for twenty.

The same seems to be happening in Canada. The Reeeeeform party is out for blood, the intention being to wholly destroy our centrist Liberal party, turning this into a two-party state of extreme right and extreme left views.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:10 AM on August 29, 2008 [17 favorites]

Why is everyone assuming she'll do so poorly in the debates? Because she's a pretty woman?

Remy beat me to it, but it has nothing to do with the fact that she's a woman and everything to do with Biden having 35 years of experience as an elected official versus her eighteen or so months. Also, Biden has proven repeatedly that he can verbally eviscerate his opposition even when they have years of practice, so unless she has some kind of hidden debate-jujitsu, I'm betting she doesn't fare well against him.
posted by quin at 9:13 AM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

Sour cream: "..completely irregardless of their policy."

Fail.
posted by shiu mai baby at 9:13 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

this feels a little bit like george mc govern's search for a vice presidential candidate in 1968: ted kennedy declined, sargent shriver was out of reach, walter mondale also said no, abe ribicoff had better things to do, kevin white was vetoed, walter cronkite wasn't asked until it was too late, gaylord nelson refused and by this time around it was down to the guy running the ice cream truck down the street and some obscure senater named tom eagleton nobody seemed to know all that well. we all know how that story turned out: words like landslide and electro-shock-therapy have been used more often than I care to recount.

so, dearest barack: you may have a funny name, you may be black, you may be against abortion, you may have a real problem with the hillary crowd but the republicans seem to have acquired a taste for that old dance the democrats have very nearly perfected since the days of good old hapless george mc govern. you may be hopeful.

and so am I.
posted by krautland at 9:13 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Is the Clinton thing all he's got?
posted by Artw at 9:14 AM on August 29, 2008

An awful lot of you seem to be assuming that ~~women~~ voters are shallow idiots

If the shoe fits…
posted by designbot at 9:14 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Think John Connally eviscerated Dan Quayle? Just you wait.

You mean former vice president Dan Quayle? The guy who won?

George H W Bush won in spite of picking Quayle as VP. Remember?
posted by Daddy-O at 9:15 AM on August 29, 2008

"brilliant pick; even more brilliant given the fact that many, many Hillary voters saw Hillary as a step in the direction of women's rights. These voters aren't policy voters; they're visceral voters." SeizeTheDay

Agreed. But I don't know why everyone's so quick to hate on or even be surprised by the "visceral" women; look at Obama's 90+ to 1 margin among black voters. Is the tribal nature of our politics so surprising to us that we can't move past it?
posted by resurrexit at 9:16 AM on August 29, 2008

damn... for abortion. I don't even get their pseudo-arguments listed right.
I need more sleep.
posted by krautland at 9:16 AM on August 29, 2008

For all I know, the media are yapping about how McCain closed the gap in the polls despite the Democratic convention and might be even leading now (although personally, I don't trust the polls and think they are one half skewed and the other half made up on the fly). He's poised to win.

I don't understand this- McCain's not leading the polls at the moment; convention bounce (if any) won't really be seen until Monday. 78% of women don't know who the heck Sarah Palin is. There hasn't been a single debate, and yet you can confidently state three months before the election that McCain is poised to win?
posted by oneirodynia at 9:17 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Suggesting that someone is sexist because they don't like the Anti-Choice, creationist person who counts a beauty contest as election experience...

Ah, but that's not what I suggested. I was referring to how quickly the thread filled with sex jokes. This knee-jerk defensiveness thing is old.
posted by lunit at 9:17 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

George H W Bush won in spite of picking Quayle as VP. Remember?

YES. YESYESYES. Oh my god yes.
posted by krautland at 9:17 AM on August 29, 2008

Think John Connally eviscerated Dan Quayle?

No, I think Lloyd Bentsen did it. And still lost by 7 million votes and an 80/20 split of the electoral college. She's a lightweight, yes, but bad VP choices don't lose you an election. Perot grabbed nearly 20 million votes in spite of Stockdale's embarrassing performance.

Her abysmal qualifications only means the bar will be set so incredibly low that not killing herself tripping over it will be seen as a monumental achievement. OK, so McCain has put Eddie Gaedel up to bat for him. The Dems can't strike her out. And if she does happen to even touch the ball, it's a veritable home run.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 9:19 AM on August 29, 2008

Am I the only one thinking he is going for Laura Roslin and the BSG vote?
posted by well_balanced at 9:19 AM on August 29, 2008 [13 favorites]

No, it's because she doesn't have much experience and doesn't seem to know what the VP even does.

That's not what she said. She said she doesn't know what a VP does from day to day. That's very different from not knowing what a VP's constitutional functions are, and is really not all that ignorant of a question--given the complete lack of powers given to the Vice President by the Constitution, the issue of spending your time usefully is certainly real.
posted by nasreddin at 9:19 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

George H W Bush won in spite of picking Quayle as VP. Remember?

Food for thought. If it hadn't been for H. Ross Perot, Dan Quayle may well have been just settling into his 2nd term as President on 9/11/01.
posted by loquax at 9:20 AM on August 29, 2008

And this is why Biden will lose the debates. Nobody likes the attack dog who picked on the pretty girl.

I hadn't considered this angle, but I don't think I completely agree. People have argued for so long that Democrats are soft and ineffectual, it would be a huge tonal shift for them to suddenly argue that the Dems are playing too rough.

Not saying they won't try it, though.
posted by quin at 9:20 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

I'm surprised there are no baby boomers in this election. All the candidates were either born before 1945 or after 1960 (Obama is "technically" a baby boomer but he gives the impression of someone younger than 47). You would think this election would have baby boomers represented as they approach 60 and should be at the height of experience without being too old.

I wonder if those middle-aged Hillary supporters will like Palin or will they see someone who is closer in age to Lewinsky than them.
posted by bobo123 at 9:20 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

>Is the tribal nature of our politics so surprising to us that we can't move past it?

Absolutely. Humans will never move past it. its our nature. Never underestime a swing or sometimes voter with something in common with a candidate.
posted by damn dirty ape at 9:20 AM on August 29, 2008

For those of you not old enough to have been there, the prevailing thought on the Quayle selection was that he was assassination insurance. People would think twice about killing the President when they saw who was next in line. There were no age or disease issues with George Bush, so the fact that Quayle was inexperienced and generally seen as a silver spooned buffoon wasn't really an issue. He did provide a young face to the ticket, and that was an advantage to counter Bush's experience.
posted by Eekacat at 9:21 AM on August 29, 2008

Think John Connally eviscerated Dan Quayle?

No, I think Lloyd Bentsen did it.

Duh.
posted by Daddy-O at 9:22 AM on August 29, 2008

So I will give the Canadian guy view - I am only and observer, but I am damn sure not neutral.

For people talking about debates, I think Joe Biden is in tough because its going to be a lot harder for him to go on the attack without looking like a jerk. That said, I am not sure the VP debate matters - hard core Republicans who have stuck with them through these last few years are clearly not people who think deep; nothing Biden/Palin could say would change their minds. If Biden plays it safe, and doesn't do anything to alienate his base he can't lose. Biden just has to play defence, and Palin would need a knockout to gain anything.

Last night also showed that when Barack Obama decides to go on offence he can do it with an impressive level of precision and authority, his acceptance speech was notable for a number of reason - he is perhaps the best speaker of his generation. Barack can clearly be his own attack dog, if he needs to be and Biden really only needs to face off agains Palin once, so its not that hard to dodge.

I don't see this Palin move as a factor. First, Palin's home base is geographically isolated. While Palin may pick off a few Hilary supporters, but I suspect the number of truly disaffected Hilary supporters has been overcounted and magnified by media coverage. Otherwise the Palin selection is a move to appeal to Republican supports, who want to cling to the idea that the Repubs can be fresh-looking, younger, and interesting too but have sufficient powers of denial to ignore the other advantages of the democratic ticket. Palin only becomes a true mainstream political asset on the vote-getting front if she publically declares herself to be anti-war, and talks about being a dove to balance McCain's hawk; I don't see that happening.

My prediction today is the same as it was last week. Obama takes the presidential election, by something like 52%-48%. I somehow think a lot of people who normally vote Republican will stay home on election day.
posted by Deep Dish at 9:22 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

More and more, I think the Republican party is deliberately throwing this election.

Could well be. On the other hand, hype aside, you could almost think the same of the democrats. I mean to say, it should be shoo in for them, and yet the polls do not show a trouncing.

Then again, such a strategy might really be beyond the Men In The Smoke Filled Room. It's not like the old days. Too many ambitious people who really do want to be president.

the prevailing thought on the Quayle selection was that he was assassination insurance.

Could be true, but for such an outrageous statement, we really do want a citation. "Prevailing thought" too vague.
posted by IndigoJones at 9:24 AM on August 29, 2008

Does the VP do something from day to day?
posted by Artw at 9:25 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

FFF...I've been saying the same thing for a long time now. Yeah, it's beyond cynical, but it really does fall in-line with the sort of calculations I've come to expect from the Rove-era GOP.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:27 AM on August 29, 2008

I think she's a poor choice and torpedoes McCain's attack line on experience (particularly given his own age and dodgy health) but I don't think the VP line is particularly bad.

VPs have in the past taken on different roles, and in context she was trying to do the politician thing of disclaiming a suggested job without implying she didn't want it.
posted by athenian at 9:27 AM on August 29, 2008

Not according to Sarah Palin:

In an interview just a month ago, she dissed the job, saying it didn’t seem “productive.”

In fact, she said she doesn’t know what the vice president does.

Larry Kudlow of CNBC’s “Kudlow & Co.” asked her about the possibility of becoming McCain's ticket mate.

Palin replied: “As for that VP talk all the time, I’ll tell you, I still can’t answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the VP does every day? I’m used to being very productive and working real hard in an administration. We want to make sure that that VP slot would be a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans and for the things that we’re trying to accomplish up here for the rest of the U.S., before I can even start addressing that question.”
posted by oneirodynia at 9:28 AM on August 29, 2008

"especially for Alaskans"?

So what's the general feel for Alaska, are they seen as crazy right-wing pork addicts?
posted by Artw at 9:30 AM on August 29, 2008

Am I the only one thinking he is going for Laura Roslin and the BSG vote?

No, Margaret Spellings will be president when the robot revolution comes.
posted by designbot at 9:30 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

* munches popcorn *

Goddamn, I do love being an American.

But sometimes I am not sure why.
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 9:33 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Jesus tap-dancing Christ. If McCain wanted a former beauty queen with no experience and a criminal investigation on her record I don’t know why he didn’t just pick his own wife.

Like many other goods lines I pick up here, that one is so good I will shamelessly steal it and re-use it elsewhere. ;-)
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:34 AM on August 29, 2008 [16 favorites]

You know, I think there's also a very good case to be made that this may motivate Hillary Clinton to work even harder to elect Barack Obama. There's absolutely no way that she would find the idea of a republican female president heartwarming. I think the Obama campaign is pretty pleased with this choice.

If that makes you feel good, ok. I don't see it though.

So, you think Clinton will be pleased about the thought of Sarah Palin being closer in line to the presidency than she was, just by default of being chosen as the anti-Obama news item?
posted by oneirodynia at 9:35 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I liked Bailey Hutchinson, maybe she had some skeletons that made her a bad choice, I don't know. Palin's a gamble because, obviously, it's silly to select her for a ticket that has made the other side's "inexperience" a huge issue, but if you seriously think that the media will call bullshit on the next thre months of McCain hammering Obama for being inexperienced, you're either too naive or blinded by wishful thinking.

George ""I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun" Bush and Dick "other priorities" Cheney, two proven draft dodgers (Cheney even bragged about it), were allowed by the media to slam with impunity people like Kerry, Murtha, and poor Max Cleland who had actually gone to war (and in Clelend's case, left a few limbs there).

the media, that in a functioning democracy is supposed to be the ref, thought it O.K. and allowed the draft dodgers to cover the veterans in lies (Swift Boat and otherwise).

If you think the media will point out the bad faith in McCain's slamming Obama's inexperience these next three months, think again. unless there's a provable scandal that can damage her, Palin's home free. she has a Down syndrome baby, if you attack her you not only are a baby-killer but you also hate babies with Down syndrome. and those of you who hope she's clueless, she can't be more clueless than Dan Quayle. and Bush I / Quayle won in '88.
posted by matteo at 9:35 AM on August 29, 2008 [11 favorites]

Does the VP do something from day to day?

Well, I read she is in the NRA and likes hunting so she can keep up the tradition of the VP shooting people in the face every now and then.
posted by starzero at 9:36 AM on August 29, 2008 [15 favorites]

OH GOD OH GOD OH GOD. Her voice isn't that far off from "Will & Grace's" Karen Walker!!!!

Anastasia Beaverhausen for VP!!!! (.wav file)
posted by matty at 9:36 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think a pick like this would say more about the McCain camp's own view of their current position, the other VP possibilities, and the expected trajectory of the rest of the campaign than anything else.

And possibly what the other VP possibilites' view of the expected trajectory. I wonder if even Romney, let alone Pawlenty, want the WH badly enough to get McCain/Bush all over their clean names.
posted by DU at 9:37 AM on August 29, 2008

She has a 5 month old baby. I don't think most women relate to having a 5 month old, returning to work 3 days later, and then running for VP.
posted by cell divide at 9:38 AM on August 29, 2008

Um, and it's not about me "feeling good". If you've got a good argument for why Clinton won't campaign harder, say so. I'm not making stuff up to post here in order to "feel good".
posted by oneirodynia at 9:38 AM on August 29, 2008

heh, I meant to say, "having a child, returning to work 3 days later, and 5 months later running for VP".
posted by cell divide at 9:38 AM on August 29, 2008

She's on CNN now (and here; she's got a really weird speaking voice. I guess that's what an Alaskan accent sounds like.
posted by designbot at 9:39 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

"Senator McCain, where is your VP candidate from?"

"Alaska"

"No, I'm asking YOU the question, Senator."

"Juneau."

"No, I DON'T know—that's why I'm asking!"

"Anchorage."

"Do you really need encouragement just to answer the question?"

Nome?

No sir, we do not. That's why we're asking you.

"Fairbanks."

"Senator McCain, there will be time to discuss your financial policies later. I'm asking about your VP selection."

"What was the question again?"

[fuming] "Listen. Let me put it to you this way: the people who come from this place—they must call themselves something. What's the word they use to refer to themselves?"

"Inuit."

"Good. I suppose you wouldn't mind sharing it with me, then?"

"Eskimo."

"I'm not interviewing Moe—I'm asking you!"
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:39 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

Ah, this must be why people are winding up at my blog's review of Sarah Plain and Tall by searching for "Sarah Plain". Palin, people, Palin.
posted by orange swan at 9:40 AM on August 29, 2008 [17 favorites]

Metafilter: post made up stuff here to "feel good"
posted by Artw at 9:40 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

STOP CLAPPING INTO THE MIKE
posted by designbot at 9:41 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

http://www.vpilf.com/
posted by nitsuj at 9:42 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

IT'S A TRAP!

If the left thinks they can attack her on the fact that she's some backwoods breeder they are going to step in it with "middle America."

How dare the left attack this woman for choosing to bring a new (if retarded) life into this world! How dare the left attack her small town values!

The left is out of touch, elitist, effete, and beholden to ivory towers socialists and inner city welfare leeches and their attacks on Palin just confirm this!

Who will keep us safe? The party of the welfare queens, the queers, and the baby killers? Or the party of the vets, the frontiersmen (and women) and those who recognize that family is the foundation of our society!

Not a genius move, but theirs is a party that neither desires nor respects genius...
posted by wfrgms at 9:42 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

How tough will Joe Biden be able to get on her in the debate without people calling him a sexist pig?

As a feminist and supporter of full equal rights for pretty much everyone, I say, "eviscerate the shit out of her".

Also, McCain is a known skirt chaser who left his former-beauty-queen wife for a younger, might-as-well-be-former-beauty-queen heiress, and now wants to make a younger former beauty queen his #2. You want to talk about fucked up sexual dynamics? It's not Biden anyone has to worry about.
posted by mkultra at 9:42 AM on August 29, 2008 [31 favorites]

I can't help but think this is part of some bigger GOP plan. Have the dems focus on her inexperience and then after a few weeks she decides she cannot be the VP candidate because family comes first or something else. Then they go after Obama's inexperience again using quotes from dems about her inexperience. Or something like that. It just seems like such a desperate move.

My paranoid thought is she could be another Harriet Miers - an inappropriate candidate tossed out as a possibility (and a distraction), then later pulled back in favor of the person who was the "real" candidate all along.
posted by yhbc at 9:44 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

"Senator McCain, where is your VP candidate from?"

"Alaska"

"No, I'm asking YOU the question, Senator."

"Juneau."

"No, I DON'T know—that's why I'm asking!"

"Anchorage."

"Do you really need encouragement just to answer the question?"

Nome?

No sir, we do not. That's why we're asking you.

"Fairbanks."

"Senator McCain, there will be time to discuss your financial policies later. I'm asking about your VP selection."

"What was the question again?"

[fuming] "Listen. Let me put it to you this way: the people who come from this place—they must call themselves something. What's the word they use to refer to themselves?"

"Inuit."

"Good. I suppose you wouldn't mind sharing it with me, then?"

"Eskimo."

"I'm not interviewing Moe—I'm asking you!"

"So, Senator, is it true you picked Gov. Palin as a pandering move to women voters?"

"Denali."
posted by shiu mai baby at 9:44 AM on August 29, 2008 [7 favorites]

mkultra - Ugh. Creepy. And it's about that time in his breeding cycle, things could go very wrong.
posted by Artw at 9:44 AM on August 29, 2008

Wait - the Harriet Miers thing was deliberate? What did it gain them?
posted by Artw at 9:45 AM on August 29, 2008

Holy Christ McCain is going to get fucking stomped
posted by i_am_a_Jedi at 9:46 AM on August 29, 2008

Let the VPILF jokes begin.

Meh. Give me Jennifer Granholm or Stephanie Herseth any day.

Or Margaret Thatcher. What, you don't think power is sexy? Tell me you don't think power is sexy.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:46 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

she's got a really weird speaking voice

Really??? Sounds pretty normal to me. Certainly not the flat tv-announcer voice, but just sounds like most other regular folks. Of course, I am from Michigan, which is famous for its distinctive high-throated/nasal accent. And I now live in Montana, which is not as distinctive, and which I have probably acclimated to.

In any case, I wouldn't have the immediate reaction that she has a "weird" speaking voice. It's certainly less grating than some others.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 9:47 AM on August 29, 2008

McCain picks a pro-life, pro-second amendment, fiscal conservative, and current governor for VP. Sounds pretty normal.

Oh, and she's an attractive woman. OMG METAFILTER RAAAAAAAAAGE!!!

I thought the Republicans were supposed to be the male chauvinists.
posted by jsonic at 9:47 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Or Margaret Thatcher. What, you don't think power is sexy? Tell me you don't think power is sexy.

If you're, you know, into that whole dominatrix/GMILF thing.

you know who you are
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:49 AM on August 29, 2008

You know, male democrats who don't get the whole Hillary Clinton thing have been pissing off female democrats who do during the entire primary season.

Lead Hillary off with all the tough debate questions and send a few easy ones to Obama, and then if the Hillary camp complains call them whining complainers.

Market a bunch of sexist products that make fun of Hillary (where no one would dare do the same thing to Obama), and have a bunch of media talking heads say awful sexist things to her, and then say her camp is a bunch of whiners and complainers when they speak up about it.

Once Obama has effectively won the primary, make it clear that he is not going to seriously consider her for VP, and don't let us know why, and pick some stuffy old white guy instead. Okay, fine.

Then, at the convention, when she more than any other losing candidate in history comes out and supports Obama and tells her voters to get out there and support Obama through a really moving speech, pick it apart and say that she didn't do enough, she wasn't really sincere, she should have talked more about why he is qualified to be president.

And now, when McCain surprises a large portion of americans who thought he was going to pick some old rich white dude as his VP but instead picks a "youngish" (mid-forties) woman (again, supposedly the most popular governor in America and known as a serious reformer), bust out jokes about how she was a beauty queen and how dumb she must be and how ridiculously political this move is. And how dumb it is to pick your VP just to go after the female vote.

It seems to me like a bunch of male democrats have been underestimating the importance of the female vote for a pretty serious stretch of time here. Maybe this will work out for McCain and maybe it won't. But you might do better with a little less derision and a little more understanding for what these women are on about. You think she got elected Governor of Alaska -- a state full of men -- because she is pretty? Whatever. This is really disappointing.
posted by onlyconnect at 9:49 AM on August 29, 2008 [39 favorites]

I get the experience meme now. That insight is like a kick in the gut. I know Obama's record, so I always just wrote off the problem of experience. But now, the problem of experience actually applies, and it's terrifying.

I'm going to have an honest question for my Republican friends that I know love this country: what if McCain dies?

I do not think this is terrifying because Palin is a woman, or a beauty queen, or a mother. None of those are close to reasons to think she cannot do the job. It's going to be sickening once those attacks start, from the right or from the left. (Republicans don't have the monopoly on sexism, and I'm afraid of the attacks that are going to come from Democrats.) I believe the time is way overdue for a woman to get into office. But the sad fact of our past and current sexism does nothing to change the fact that she is not presidential material. The very worst part of this is that so many women are presidential material and they got passed over because she's an easy choice. She tows the party line, betraying her fellow women on the issues that count.

The problem with picking a woman for purely political purposes is a deep one. It confirms that the movers and shakers in the Republican political machine have nothing but contempt for women. "Yes, we were mean to you, but look, we got you this shiny handbag, just for you..."

This terrifies me because so much is riding on this election. Only a historic choice will do. I want a woman in office, but please, not one that doesn't even know what the job entails. Not one chosen in the cynical and desperate spirit of demographic politics.
posted by dosterm at 9:53 AM on August 29, 2008 [36 favorites]

I have to wonder what Palin's view on parental leave is, given the example she's set that basically says to mothers "hey, its not that hard. Just go back to work. You can do it if you try hard enough."

@anastasiav would you prefer if she were against paid leave and took a 90 day break herself? Be a sport and at least praise her for walking the talk - that is, if she IS against paid leaves, which I believe you're just speculating and it's all bullshit. Just another opportunity to put Obama in a good light by comparison.
posted by falameufilho at 9:53 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm really looking forward to the VP debates. Biden won't attack Palin, he'll attack John McCain, and she'll look helpless trying to respond. Biden doesn't have to say anything about her at all, and he can attack McCain with a smile on his face. It's a demographic ploy to shore up the evangelical base and try to lure Clinton voters, pure and simple. All Hillary has to do is come out strongly against Palin; she will. I think this choice is a big win for the Obama campaign; it's the sort of move that would have worked against Kerry and his Ineffectual Hamster Wheel Campaign of No Hope, but Obama and his people play in the big leagues.
posted by Kwine at 9:53 AM on August 29, 2008 [6 favorites]

Palin's husband is Yupik.
Yupik?
No, you pick!
posted by lukemeister at 9:54 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Not sure if this has been said yet, but it strikes me that it this is to throw a wrench in the works of Biden's debate performance. He's going to have to pull his punches with a woman, believe it or not. This strikes me as a pretty crass and cynical pick for VP. Of course the GOP would pick a woman VP without any substance whatsoever, a dolled up pretty-faced hack. They'd have done better with one of those blond women on CNBC.
posted by bukharin at 9:55 AM on August 29, 2008

just heard her speech: She sounds like one of the ladies from Prairie Home Companion. Genius, pure genius.
posted by elwoodwiles at 9:57 AM on August 29, 2008

Man, I just want to hear the dialogue between Fleischman and O'Connell about this. He'd say something about how she's not competent to be president, and she'd take it as sexist, and then he'd have to dig himself out of a hole. Then, a couple of seasons later, they'd fuck. Off-camera, of course. Ah, man *wipes away a tear* good times, good times.

Too bad Ruth-Anne never ran for governor.
posted by Eideteker at 9:58 AM on August 29, 2008 [10 favorites]

George H W Bush won in spite of picking Quayle as VP. Remember?

Bush won 40 states and 400+ electoral votes. I don't think it was quite possible for him to win even more had he picked anyone else.
posted by gyc at 9:59 AM on August 29, 2008

Funny that Mickey C picked a running-mate with a name no one can pronounce. Pah-lin? Pay-lin?
posted by ijoshua at 10:00 AM on August 29, 2008

betraying her fellow women on the issues that count.

Which issues? Which women? Not all women believe the same thing. No political party or ideaology has a lock on "women's issues."
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 10:01 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

You know what's really pissing me off about this pick? The sentiment among the smug conservative pundits that McCain "broke the glass ceiling" with this selection. Bull. Shit. The fact that they cannot see the enormous logical fallacy of that statement is just staggering. The proverbial glass ceiling will be broken by a strong woman who does so of her own merit, not because the condescending establishment saw fit to cut a hole in it big enough only for her -- and did so only because it served their own cynical, fuck-the-95%-of-you agenda.
posted by shiu mai baby at 10:06 AM on August 29, 2008 [85 favorites]

I knew the GOP was the party of evil geniuses, but damn, bravo, they just hoisted the DNC on its own petard by choosing a rabidly pro-life (keep the party faithful happy) woman (oh hai center-right voters HRC was attracting) who started her political career around the same time as Obama (experience!). If they call out the sexist attacks on her that will certainly be made by the same fauxgressives who attacked Clinton while Obama, Dean etc said nothing, omfg, supermega evil genius.
posted by mandymanwasregistered at 10:06 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Picking Biden let the democrats counter the GOP's claims that Obama lacked experience and foreign policy chops. Clearly the GOP wanted to do something similar with their VP pick, getting someone who could similarly dull an enemy attack and shore up weaknesses.

Problem is, even if the age thing has always been on the table, the Obama campaign has steered clear of it. As far as I know, there aren't Obama ads saying "McCain would be a great president... if he was younger." Even if it is implicit, it was never stated openly.

All this really does is to make McCain look desperate and pandering, and has the added effect of robbing McCain of his second big attack against Obama's lack of experience and his youth.
posted by Uppity Pigeon #2 at 10:06 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Just after Palin's speech a Fox News commentator read the Democratic response, which was basically that it was unseemly to have a person who has only been governor for two years and the mayor of a town of 8,000 a "heartbeat away from the presidency".

Immediately followed by:

ALERT:
OBAMA CAMPAIGN DISSES PALIN FOR SMALL-TOWN ORIGINS

Seriously.

The release I saw from Bill Burton only mentions that she was a former small town mayor and doesn't mention the fact that she's Governor. To me, that was very insulting and definitely a try at playing the LOL she's hot so she must be stupid card.
posted by gyc at 10:07 AM on August 29, 2008

I feel that Palin's total lack of experience does not take the experience debate off the table.

I think it puts Obama in an awkward position. If he attacks Palin for being inexperienced, he validates the Republican claim that experience is important.

The natural Republican response would be that if experience is that important, then surely it is more important that the person who will actually be President is the experienced one.
posted by vorpal bunny at 10:09 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

I heard they are sending Palin to Russia to sort out this war!

Fox News TV Host: Palin knows about foreign policy because Alaska is ‘right next door to Russia’
posted by ericb at 10:10 AM on August 29, 2008

Several have said this removes McCain's 'experience' talking point. I don't see it. McCain's already got experience. n + 0 is still n.

Regarding the 'doesn't know what a VP does' meme, I think that may be a misreading of her statement from a few weeks ago:

....I’m used to being very productive and working real hard in an administration. We want to make sure that that VP slot would be a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans and for the things that we’re trying to accomplish up here for the rest of the U.S., before I can even start addressing that question.”

It sounds like she's saying to McCain and the Republican Party,"if you want me, you better give me a real job (oh, and there better be something in it for Alaska too)."

She only wants to run if she's going to do more than attend the funerals of lesser heads of state.
posted by zippy at 10:10 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

anastasiav would you prefer if she were against paid leave and took a 90 day break herself? Be a sport and at least praise her for walking the talk - that is, if she IS against paid leaves, which I believe you're just speculating and it's all bullshit. Just another opportunity to put Obama in a good light by comparison.

So, now we have to praise politicians for actually doing what they expect their constituents to do? I do think it's weird to extrapolate from a female politician's behavior what she represents, because no woman governor in her right mind is going to take three months off, no matter what her position is. But acting all surprised that people would wonder about it is silly. Until we learn more about Palin, everyone is going to be speculating. That's a large part of why this announcement was made today: to take attention away from Obama.

Politics is all about framing your opponents' in such a way that it puts you in a good light by comparison.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:10 AM on August 29, 2008

The beauty queen jokes would be sexist, if it were just a way for people to make fun of her looks. But she actually was a beauty queen. Maybe it's not the most incisive critique of her qualifications, but the fact that she competed to be "Miss Congeniality" tells you something about her. As I recall, lots of women have issues with beauty contests and the contestants who tape and vaseline themselves to win them.
posted by PlusDistance at 10:10 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

The choice strikes me as a tad "Can Hamsters Fly Planes?"-esque.
posted by Metroid Baby at 10:10 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

When John McCain is ailin'
He brings in Sarah Palin.
When the polls are trailin'
He puts his hopes in Palin.
When the rhetoric's failin'
There's always Sarah Palin.
If liberalism's prevailin'
Then trust in Sarah Palin!

When the election was over, McCain was asked why
And he sheepishly grinned and said with a sigh:
"There once thing I wanted from Sarah Palin:
I needed someone who could explain emailin'."
posted by Astro Zombie at 10:11 AM on August 29, 2008 [8 favorites]

An awful lot of you seem to be assuming that women voters are shallow idiots, and that PUMAs are more than an invention of Fox News.

Jesus Christ, yes, for the thousandth time: PUMA is a Republican operation. Its chairman voted for McCain in 2000 and contributed $500 bucks out of her own pocket to his campaign.

STOP TALKING ABOUT PUMA, FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST.
posted by middleclasstool at 10:11 AM on August 29, 2008 [10 favorites]

But is the Christian right really going to accept a mother with a 5-month-old infant going on the campaign trail?

If the guy from the Christian right who has an office across from mine is any indication, the answer is yes. Before the Palin pick he was ready to sit out this election. What's important here is her pro-life, creationist position. As much as I hate to generalize, this is the one overriding factor for most folks I know who have this political bent.

The Hillary supporters are going to be insulted that McCain made such a bad choice just to pander to women. I'm glad that Obama didn't pick Hillary as his VP, but it would have been killer diller to watch Hillary smash Palin in such a one sided debate.

I can almost guarantee that if the Democratic ticket was Obama/Hillary, Palin would not have been McCain's veep choice, exactly for the reason you cite.

As it stands, the VP debates will be interesting to watch. Though Biden's a seasoned politician, when he strays from prepared speech, he can really stick his foot in his mouth.

It appears to me that Obama's choice of Biden is based on the assumption that Biden would actually make a good vice president. The cynic in me sees McCain's pick not as somebody who will help him govern, rather the opportunity to pick up a few votes.
posted by SteveInMaine at 10:13 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Barack: "Wait, McCain's VP pick is married to an Eskimo, champion snowmobile racer??"

*divorces Michelle, marries native-Hawaiian surfing champion.*

"Take *that,* Johnny!"
posted by ericbop at 10:15 AM on August 29, 2008

The questions about the VP debate will be interesting. The previous thinking was that you let Biden be Biden. Unleash the hounds, so to speak.

Now, not so much. Biden is going to have to play it straight, or else he looks like an asshole. I think he can do it, and do it well, but it certainly changes the equation.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:16 AM on August 29, 2008

She graduated with a degree in journalism. *blink* I am entirely confused as to how this is the best of the best to be the first person in the presidential line of succession.

I don't care what her beliefs are, this is astounding.

It's the only thing XQUZYPHYR didn't mention, otherwise I am in agreement with that post.
posted by fluffycreature at 10:16 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Obama's speech last night was incredibly moving. America, such an amazing, wonderful place, would do well to elect Obama. He is the dream realized.

I just hope he doesn't suffer too much from stigmata or halo-chafing.
posted by mattholomew at 10:17 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Has Geraldine Ferraro spoken up about this? If there's anyone to compare Palin to, it would be her. Ferraro had a law degree and three terms in the House when she was on the ticket, and was perceived to be inexperienced.

^{But that was way back before the Culture War}
posted by jsavimbi at 10:20 AM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

She might be inexperienced in absolute terms, but look at the bigger picture, people. Obama is claiming 12 years of experience out of 4.5 billion years of Earth, but Palin's got two years out of a mere 6,000 — she totally wins on the percentages.
posted by enn at 10:20 AM on August 29, 2008 [152 favorites]

So the woman VP is bad due to her lack of experience. Let's not forget that Obama's 'experience' led him to vote FOR retroactive immunity for the telecoms that helped Bush illegally spy on us all. But I guess we're all supposed to agree that one's quantity of experience is more important than its quality.
posted by jsonic at 10:24 AM on August 29, 2008

Despite the risks, one major McCain reason for picking Palin is becoming increasingly obvious: highest probability of self-inflicted Democratic wounds through various overenthusiastic and overreaching attacks. She's a ready-made target for the loose cannons. Hey there Democrats: a Palin pick is supposed designed purely to help McCain, and it's almost impossible for it to hurt Obama. In other words, it shores up his base but has virtually no effect on Obama's base -- PUMAs are minuscule in number, have never intended to vote to Obama under any circumstances to begin with, and they're not concentrated in any particular battleground state. Democratic women are strongly and overwhelmingly pro-choice, and for the most part independent women are as well. In short, Palin is supposed to generate more enthusiasm/turnout among Republicans (by addressing certain McCain weaknesses among his base -- for instance, her stanch creationist stance comes into play here), and Palin will not win crossover votes from Obama/Biden unless you people give voters a reason to. Don't screw it up with ill-conceived rhetoric like some are doing in this thread and elsewhere on various blogs, because that's exactly what McCain is hoping for, too. Especially from Biden in the VP debates, where I expect the McCain campaign to have a few particularly goading lines prepared for him. (HAI BIDEN, 4 PWNAGE STAY ON POLICY PLZ, KTHXBYE.)

As long as Democrats stay tactful, disciplined, and on-message, all the reasons why Palin was discounted as a serious veep possibility not so long ago will manifest themselves clearly during the course of the campaign. Very few people seriously expected McCain to pick Palin for many reasons, and those reasons will be played out in due time as long as Democrats don't trip over themselves trying too hard to push things along. Of course, asking Democrats not to screw up a campaign is like asking a bear not to shit in the woods. It might be even asking too much of the fabled Obama team to keep their party on-message.
posted by DaShiv at 10:25 AM on August 29, 2008 [30 favorites]

Uh-oh!

McCain's pick of Palin is backfiring with the Hillary dead-enders!
posted by orthogonality at 10:25 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

McCain's pick shows all the judgment and wisdom of George W. Bush picking Harriet Myers as the best possible candidate for the Supreme Court.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:27 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

I guess Susan Collins, Christie Todd Whitman, Oympia Snowe, and Elizabeth Dole were busy.

Or not batshit anti-abortion enough.
posted by jonp72 at 10:28 AM on August 29, 2008

Who cares if she's a woman? She's anti-choice, corrupt and in Big Oil's pocket. Picking her doesn't make John McCain a maverick. It makes him a Republican.
posted by Bookhouse at 10:29 AM on August 29, 2008 [19 favorites]

I hope Palin campaigns wearing a sash that says "For disgruntled Hillary fans".
posted by Cranberry at 10:29 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Americans were giddy with scorn when the media exposed Chinese Olympic officials had substituted a "pretty child" for the "ugly one" in the opening ceremonies ...

McCain has copied the strategy.

He has chosen an unqualified beauty queen over a long list of much more qualified and respected Republican women - i.e., Kathleen Sibelius Janet Napolitano Elizabeth Dole ...

I am not a Republican, and so should probably be happy about this horrific decision. However, I am a feminist. I find this act emblematic of people who view women as no more than decorative objects.

This kind of diminuation of women is such an insult. Don't EVEN compare this woman to Hillary!
posted by Surfurrus at 10:31 AM on August 29, 2008 [6 favorites]

The couple-of-million or so PUMAs, the Clintonites who won't vote for Obama. (Not to be confused with cougars, btw).

There's a high degree of intersection.
posted by rokusan at 10:32 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

My first reaction was "cynical", followed immediately by "coldly calculating" which looped back to "cynical" again.

I do think it'll gain more votes than it loses, unless she falls very flat on her face in the next couple of months.
posted by rokusan at 10:33 AM on August 29, 2008

Uh-oh!

McCain's pick of Palin is backfiring with the Hillary dead-enders!

Ha! Serves them right. There are a lot of unsavory adjectives you could apply to the Hillary dead-enders, but "Easily placated" sure is not one of them.
posted by Uppity Pigeon #2 at 10:33 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

Gonna second Kwine's comment above, because it's the best attack line for the Democrats, and so far the Obama camp has been pretty damned good about following the right attack line. Palin's a non-entity. Biden is the anti-McCain attack dog, and as long as he stays on that scent he'll do fine. He doesn't have to attack Palin because there's just nothing there. Have Biden hammer against McCain in the debates, and he wins.
posted by GhostintheMachine at 10:33 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Biden is a better politician, a smarter person, and a more qualified candidate than her by an exponential factor.

Um, what? "Better Politician"?? What does that even mean? And how do you know if he's smarter or not?
posted by mattholomew at 10:33 AM on August 29, 2008

This certainly puts the abortion issue back in play, which should boil away the mushy middle and leave us the starkly split electorate we've had in recent past.

onlyconnect: You know, male democrats who don't get the whole Hillary Clinton thing have been pissing off female democrats who do during the entire primary season.

Lead Hillary off with all the tough debate questions and send a few easy ones to Obama, and then if the Hillary camp complains call them whining complainers.

The debates were moderated by male Democrats?

Market a bunch of sexist products that make fun of Hillary (where no one would dare do the same thing to Obama), and have a bunch of media talking heads say awful sexist things to her, and then say her camp is a bunch of whiners and complainers when they speak up about it.

Which male democrats marketed these products? Which media talking heads were male Democrats?

Once Obama has effectively won the primary, make it clear that he is not going to seriously consider her for VP, and don't let us know why, and pick some stuffy old white guy instead. Okay, fine.

Which male Democrats said this? And let me just say, as Hillary fan (but Obama voter), I would much, MUCH rather have her kicking ass in the Senate than withering away as VP. If you wanted Hillary as VP for either the historical hit points or because you felt she deserved it, I think you should re-evaluate your political priorities. VP is for losers.

Then, at the convention, when she more than any other losing candidate in history comes out and supports Obama and tells her voters to get out there and support Obama through a really moving speech, pick it apart and say that she didn't do enough, she wasn't really sincere, she should have talked more about why he is qualified to be president.

Who the frak are you talking about? Male Democrats or the media?

And now, when McCain surprises a large portion of americans who thought he was going to pick some old rich white dude as his VP but instead picks a "youngish" (mid-forties) woman (again, supposedly the most popular governor in America and known as a serious reformer), bust out jokes about how she was a beauty queen and how dumb she must be and how ridiculously political this move is. And how dumb it is to pick your VP just to go after the female vote.

It's not "dumb", in fact it's politically expedient. But I for one am sick of political expediency. Nor is she dumb, and I don't know that anyone is claiming she is. But governor --> VP in two years does not inspire confidence that the pick was made for her political savvy.

It seems to me like a bunch of male democrats have been underestimating the importance of the female vote for a pretty serious stretch of time here.

You appear to claiming that the only way male Democrats could properly estimate the importance of the female vote would be to give them a female to vote for. Seems to me you're underestimating the intelligence of the average female voter.
posted by schoolgirl report at 10:33 AM on August 29, 2008 [26 favorites]

He has chosen an unqualified beauty queen over a long list of much more qualified and respected Republican women - i.e., Kathleen Sibelius Janet Napolitano Elizabeth Dole ...

Well, one out of three ain't bad.
posted by EarBucket at 10:33 AM on August 29, 2008

She's a creationist.

"In an interview Thursday, Palin said she meant only to say that discussion of alternative views should be allowed to arise in Alaska classrooms: "I don't think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn't have to be part of the curriculum."

She added that, if elected, she would push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state's required curriculum."

So, she believes (and wishes to enforce teaching) that the Earth was "created" 1000 years after the Sumerians invented glue.
posted by plexi at 10:33 AM on August 29, 2008 [19 favorites]

I had to look up PUMA. Thank you for the education.
posted by malaprohibita at 10:34 AM on August 29, 2008

First black president or first female ~~vice~~ president? That's awesome.

Fixed that for you. McCain is eleventy-six years old, so whoever his VP is is very very likely to become President, too.

And pretty or not, that sort of scares me, though I do like that we'll get one or the other, assuming she isn't impeached or resigns first.
posted by rokusan at 10:34 AM on August 29, 2008

When I opened my browser this morning and went to Yahoo to check my e-mail, this was the lead story. And I know people kid about this, and jokingly make this claim, but in this instance I literally did do a spit take with my Nescafé.

This so blatantly reaks of desperation as to be humorous.

Also, what XQUZYPHYR said.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:34 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

SteveInMaine: As it stands, the VP debates will be interesting to watch. Though Biden's a seasoned politician, when he strays from prepared speech, he can really stick his foot in his mouth.

As it stands, the Presidential debates will be interesting to watch. Though McCain's a seasoned politician, when he strays from prepared speech, he can really stick his foot in his mouth.
posted by mkultra at 10:35 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Palin's unfit to be vice-president.

HAHA. You just found out about this lady this morning. Yet you're already absolutely sure she can't be VP just because she has slightly less experience than Obama. Talk about jumping to conclusions, and then trying to rationalize them afterwards.
posted by jsonic at 10:35 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

Surfurrus writes "He has chosen an unqualified beauty queen over a long list of much more qualified and respected Republican women - i.e., Kathleen Sibelius Janet Napolitano Elizabeth Dole ..."

Are you trying to be funny here? Sibelius and Napolitano are both Democrats. (And Liddy Dole started out working for Kennedy-Johnson '60, and then worked in LBJ's Whitehouse.)
posted by orthogonality at 10:36 AM on August 29, 2008

Has Geraldine Ferraro spoken up about this?

Kind of.
posted by ericbop at 10:37 AM on August 29, 2008

Jeanne: And there's no way she's prepard to take over if McCain dies.

Palin has more executive governmental experience than Obama and Biden combined.
posted by Jahaza at 10:39 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

He has chosen an unqualified beauty queen over a long list of much more qualified and respected Republican women - i.e., Kathleen Sibelius Janet Napolitano Elizabeth Dole ...

Sebelius and Napolitano are Democrats.
posted by arianell at 10:39 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Though McCain's a seasoned politician, when he strays from prepared speech, he can really stick his foot in his mouth.

Yeah, at least Biden doesn't do that.
posted by mattholomew at 10:39 AM on August 29, 2008

You know, I'm really naive in thinking that at some point in my life people will actually get it through their heads that feminism is as much about equally judging women's faults as it is about judging their attributes.

I felt the same way when I had to defend my choice of voting for Obama over Clinton. Because I am a woman and a feminist, I was "supposed" to vote for Clinton. It took a lot to explain that being a feminist meant placing women on equal footing with men and not just voting for a woman just because she's a woman.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 10:40 AM on August 29, 2008 [17 favorites]

And if you think any of that is "chauvinist," then I really just give up on you.

Yeah, lets just ignore all the 'beauty queen' comments that are being attached quite liberally to most criticisms of this lady. I'm sure that has nothing to do with dismissing her based on her gender.
posted by jsonic at 10:40 AM on August 29, 2008

(My third reaction was: That old horndog McCain must have misunderstood the term "running mate".)
posted by rokusan at 10:41 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Has Geraldine Ferraro spoken up about this?

Geraldine will love Palin. 'Cause she's white.
posted by EarBucket at 10:41 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

She graduated with a degree in journalism.

Holy shit. I'M GONNA BE PRESIDENT! This is gonna fucking rock!
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:41 AM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

Biden is in a catch-22, he will be eviscerated in the debate. I won't argue my opinion, but I'll be happy to go down in mefi history as the guy who thought Joe would lose the debate...badly.
I'm pissed that Obama chose an old white beltway failed hothead as veep. Poor decision making. Play it safe move by team Obama. Methinks Palin intimidates some people here already.
NOT a McCain man at all.
posted by dawson at 10:41 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

ColdChef: "Sarah and Todd Palin have five children: boys Track, 19, and Trig, 4 months, and daughters Bristol, 17, Willow, 13, and Piper, 7.

Dear GOD! Vice Presidents don't get to NAME anything, do they?!"

Operation Ashley
Operation Britney
Operation Madison
etc.....

Leno just creamed his slacks.
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 10:42 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Palin has more executive governmental experience than Obama and Biden combined.

By that measure, she has more than McCain as well.
posted by Slothrup at 10:42 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

jsonic, the beauty queen comments are coming from the fact that we're talking about a woman who was, literally, a beauty queen. Why is this an issue for you?
posted by shiu mai baby at 10:43 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

I wish McCain had chosen Hillary. Now that would have made for an interesting election.
posted by you just lost the game at 10:43 AM on August 29, 2008

Yeah, lets just ignore all the 'beauty queen' comments that are being attached quite liberally to most criticisms of this lady. I'm sure that has nothing to do with dismissing her based on her gender.

I think the non-sexist point there, whether on the mark or not, is that that's the BEST thing one can find to say about her. It's no more sexist than calling GWB a college cheerleader.
posted by rokusan at 10:45 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Whatever may be her faults, McCain certainly succeeded in pushing last night's historic performance off the front page.
posted by DU at 10:45 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Though McCain's a seasoned politician, when he strays from prepared speech, he can really stick his foot in his mouth.

Yeah, at least Biden doesn't do that.

Heck, Biden can't give a prepared speech.
posted by Jahaza at 10:45 AM on August 29, 2008

So, she believes (and wishes to enforce teaching) that the Earth was "created" 1000 years after the Sumerians invented glue.

that's because the sumerians got sick of sticking to each other in space - god had to do something ...
posted by pyramid termite at 10:46 AM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

I wish McCain had chosen Hillary. Now that would have made for an interesting election.
posted by mattholomew at 10:46 AM on August 29, 2008

McCain's biggest problem was that social conservatives don't like him and were contemplating staying home on election day. Social conservatives are euphoric over this pick and will now turn out in droves.
posted by spudsilo at 10:46 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

I wish McCain had chosen Hillary. Now that would have made for an interesting election.

Yikes, sorry about the double post - but I thought the same thing, that would be world-class entertainment.
posted by mattholomew at 10:47 AM on August 29, 2008

I'm going to have an honest question for my Republican friends that I know love this country: what if McCain dies?

I'd much rather have Palin as my President than Obama.

jsonic, the beauty queen comments are coming from the fact that we're talking about a woman who was, literally, a beauty queen. Why is this an issue for you?

Because it's very clearly that it's being used in this thread, if not outright, but as a subtext, to insinuate that somehow she's not smart enough to be Veep.
posted by gyc at 10:47 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

mattholomew: "Biden is a better politician, a smarter person, and a more qualified candidate than her by an exponential factor.

Um, what? "Better Politician"?? What does that even mean? And how do you know if he's smarter or not?"

Jesus, don't make us do all your work, eh?
posted by KevinSkomsvold at 10:47 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

everyone's saying sarah palin is a conservative, but really, she's a feminist....for life.
posted by snofoam at 10:48 AM on August 29, 2008

My .02 is she is in for a fall, being set up as it were, and Lieberman is chosen (or Romney). That way McCain can say he tried, offered a woman for VP, but when she couldn't pass muster he went with the more expeirenced and proven (Fill in the blank).
posted by Gungho at 10:48 AM on August 29, 2008

She seems like more of a Mussolini than a Thatcher to me.
posted by Artw at 10:49 AM on August 29, 2008

Of course she is! Because denying women control over their own bodies is oh so feminist.
posted by agregoli at 10:49 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I wouldn't be surprised to find out that her opponents two years ago were saying Palin didn't have the experience to be governor.
posted by Daddy-O at 10:49 AM on August 29, 2008

The announcement was made when McCain and another masked figure rode up to the assembled press on motorcycles. McCain, wearing his visor up, got off his bike and walked forward; the other figure, clothed all in black leather, with a black visor, stayed still. After some preamble, McCain said: "and now, the next Vice President of the United States!" All eyes turned to the masked rider, who then removed the helmet and *gasp* revealed herself to be a woman, with long hair spilling down about her shoulders.

Or at least, that's how it should have been.
posted by roombythelake at 10:50 AM on August 29, 2008 [8 favorites]

Are you trying to be funny here?

Nope, just didn't know any Republican women candidates offhand ... used a blog's list
(http://www.rightwingnews.com/mt331/2008/02/john_mccains_top_22_potential.php).

Perhaps I should have left the list blank? Actually, maybe I should have put the question out:

-- DOES the Republican party have any 'respected, qualified' candidates who DON'T look like beauty contestants???

I still feel this is the case of a "pretty girl" substituted for an "ugly" one.

This Palin choice is no "advancement for women". It is just one more insult.
posted by Surfurrus at 10:50 AM on August 29, 2008

First sighting of 'I know Hillary Clinton, and...' meme...

More to come.
posted by rokusan at 10:52 AM on August 29, 2008

"Senator McCain, where is your VP candidate from?"

"Alaska"

"No, I'm asking YOU the question, Senator."

"Juneau."

"No, I DON'T know—that's why I'm asking!"

"Anchorage."

"Do you really need encouragement just to answer the question?"

Nome?

No sir, we do not. That's why we're asking you.

"Fairbanks."

"Senator McCain, there will be time to discuss your financial policies later. I'm asking about your VP selection."

"What was the question again?"

[fuming] "Listen. Let me put it to you this way: the people who come from this place—they must call themselves something. What's the word they use to refer to themselves?"

"Inuit."

"Good. I suppose you wouldn't mind sharing it with me, then?"

"Eskimo."

"I'm not interviewing Moe—I'm asking you!"

"So, Senator, is it true you picked Gov. Palin as a pandering move to women voters?"

"Denali."

"You can't deny that she's your running mate."

"Wasilla"
posted by goethean at 10:52 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

But governor --> VP in two years does not inspire confidence that the pick was made for her political savvy.

Call me cynical but in my book "political savvy" = retread D.C. hack (Joe Biden anyone?). Do we really need yet another high elected official with decades of experience kowtowing to their corporate paymasters?
posted by MikeMc at 10:52 AM on August 29, 2008

Because it's very clearly that it's being used in this thread, if not outright, but as a subtext, to insinuate that somehow she's not smart enough to be Veep.

No, the deal is that we have a woman who's been governor of of a state (population of which is smaller than Obama's congressional district) for a mere 18 months, and before that was a mayor of a town smaller than the one where Elvis was born. We've got that and the beauty queen thing to go on. And not a whole hell of a lot else. Fair game.
posted by shiu mai baby at 10:52 AM on August 29, 2008

wow. when did fark get this nice blue background?
posted by dawson at 10:53 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

This pick makes fools and hypocrites of all the Republicans who have been saying that Obama doesn't have enough experience and that that's why they won't vote for him.
posted by goethean at 10:53 AM on August 29, 2008

Don't make us do all your work, eh?

Sorry, you might have to do a bit more -- you've shown that Biden is mostly a democrat and Palin is mostly a Republican although I haven't seen anything that indicates that one is a 'better politician' or 'smarter' than the other. Biden's collossal verbal gaffe against Obama certainly doesn't help either case.
posted by mattholomew at 10:54 AM on August 29, 2008

the beauty queen comments are coming from the fact that we're talking about a woman who was, literally, a beauty queen. Why is this an issue for you?

It's always brought up derisively. It's the equivalent of saying she's an airhead because she's pretty. Otherwise why even bring it up? The entire relevance is the idea that "we all know" beauty queens shouldn't be taken seriously.

And admit it: If it were the republicans doing this, all of you would be raging hard.
posted by jsonic at 10:54 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

The Daily Show is going to use "Hot for Teacher" for any segments on her. They must.
posted by RakDaddy at 10:54 AM on August 29, 2008

I'd much rather have Palin as my President than Obama.

Okay, gyc, I'll bite -- why?
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 10:56 AM on August 29, 2008

jsonic, so you consider beauty pageants worthy of some kind of respect? I don't see anything of substance or honorable about being in one.
posted by agregoli at 10:56 AM on August 29, 2008

wow. when did fark get this nice blue background?

It's part of the transition to full on /b/. You'll get over it.
posted by MikeMc at 10:58 AM on August 29, 2008

Yeah, lets just ignore all the 'beauty queen' comments that are being attached quite liberally to most criticisms of this lady. I'm sure that has nothing to do with dismissing her based on her gender.

Does everything need a disclaimer around here?

At some point, this woman decided to compete in a beauty contest. She seems to be proud of her performance in it. Therefore, this decision is fair game for criticism, especially with regard to what this could mean for jilted Hillary voters.

Lots of feminists consider beauty contests A Bad Thing™. I personally question someone's judgment who participates in one. This is clearly a red flag if we're operating under the hypothesis that this VP pick is pandering to Hillary supporters.
posted by butterstick at 11:00 AM on August 29, 2008 [12 favorites]

bukharin, I have the same concern. I think the point Biden has to drive home is that Ahmedinajad/Medvedev/Putin/etc. are not going to pull punches when seated across the nuclear non-proliferation negotiating table from a possible President Palin (*shudder*), so she had better be able to conduct herself in a lousy VP debate.
posted by fingers_of_fire at 11:01 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

so you consider beauty pageants worthy of some kind of respect? I don't see anything of substance or honorable about being in one.

Nobody is making that argument. The beauty pageant comments are an attempt to discredit her as an airheaded woman. The fact that left-leaning commentors feel justified in doing this just adds to the hypocrisy.
posted by jsonic at 11:02 AM on August 29, 2008

I haven't seen anything that indicates that one is a 'better politician' or 'smarter' than the other.

Palin believes the Earth is 4,000 years old. What the hell more do you need?
posted by rokusan at 11:02 AM on August 29, 2008 [23 favorites]

Why is this an issue for you?

It is an issue for jsonic because jsonic likes to find things to chide metafilter for. If it hadn't been that, he'd have been offended by something else, possibly something only he could see.

It's the equivalent of saying she's an airhead because she's pretty.

For whatever it's worth to others who are actually interested in a conversation instead of the automatic gainsay of whatever "lefty" posture jsonic projects onto metafilter, it's not.

It's the equivalent of saying that she's an airhead because she participates in vapid, airheaded activities. Having voluntarily competed in beauty pageants should be as embarrassing as appearing on the Gong Show to any adult who wants to be taken seriously.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:02 AM on August 29, 2008 [12 favorites]

mattholomew: Biden's collossal verbal gaffe

You've got an interesting interpretation of "collossal". "Makaka" was a collossal gaffe. All those folks saying gross and insulting things when they (incorrectly) think the mic is off are collossal gaffes.

Biden could have chosen his words better, but that was largely MSM manufactured outrage.
posted by mkultra at 11:02 AM on August 29, 2008

rokusan writes "First sighting of 'I know Hillary Clinton, and...' meme..."

You know, it's funny. Here is where I first saw the Plin news,and it didn't even occur to me to check the mainstream media's reaction.

I looked here, and on reddit and fark and dailykos, and on a few other blogs.

In fact, I never read the Washington Post's site anymore, because it requires a log-in. I don't read CNN or Reuters or the AP much, because they require javascript to work correctly.

And really, I'm more interested in blog or aggregator sites, because they give an idea of how Americans are reacting to the news. Weird, but except as sources for aggregators too link to, I don't have a use for the MSM; instead on rely on bloggers to filter my news.
posted by orthogonality at 11:02 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

I think there have been some sexist comments in this thread, but I don't think bringing up the nominee for Vice President's days in a beauty pageant is sexist. Unless we want to assume that something like that is intrinsic to being a woman, which is more insulting that any mention of the contest - I'm a woman, I think beauty pageants are stupid and demeaning and I think poorly of women who participate in them. I don't want women involved in them as my political leaders and I don't want them representing me unless they have a cornucopia of experience that overrides that one negative one. Which Palin really doesn't.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 11:03 AM on August 29, 2008 [19 favorites]

It's the equivalent of saying she's an airhead because she's pretty.

No.

It's a sad, funny, pathetic accomplishment on her resume, akin to "Sang and Danced in Local Theatre Production of Miss Saigon."

It would be so whether she was pretty or not.
posted by rokusan at 11:04 AM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

Call me cynical but in my book "political savvy" = retread D.C. hack (Joe Biden anyone?). Do we really need yet another high elected official with decades of experience kowtowing to their corporate paymasters?

Well shoot, high government experience has to count for something, doesn't it? Otherwise we might as well elect as President any old smartypants who made a meteoric rise from county clerk to head of the city council in two years. We want our politicians to get things done, yes? For better or for worse, getting things done doesn't mean just wanting to get them done, it means knowing how to get them done.
posted by schoolgirl report at 11:04 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Video of her speech today
posted by Perplexity at 11:04 AM on August 29, 2008

You know, it's funny. Here is where I first saw the Plin news,and it didn't even occur to me to check the mainstream media's reaction.

I just Googled "Hillary +Palin" to find reactions. I'm now reading all the right wing sites in my bookmarks. It's... mixed.
posted by rokusan at 11:05 AM on August 29, 2008

Something I can't figure out from her bio: has she ever had a job aside from sports reporter and commercial fisherman? (And yes, I mean job outside of the home.)
posted by miss tea at 11:05 AM on August 29, 2008

Beauty pageants are all about judging a woman on how she looks. Period. You can burnish it all you like by calling it a "scholarship competition," have the participants sing opera and twirl batons and proclaim their desire for world peace, but there's no getting around that winners are selected using the most shallow and inconsequential of standards -- ones that completely undercut every effort for equality that women have tried to make. In other words, it's the ultimate endorsement of the belief that women are pretty objects that are placed on god's green earth for the oggling.

Beauty pageant participants are not automatically stupid, and no one here is saying that. But someone who values them enough to be a competitor indicates an obsession and an elevation of principles that I really wouldn't want in a politician, much less someone who has the very real potential to be president.
posted by shiu mai baby at 11:06 AM on August 29, 2008 [22 favorites]

Biden could have chosen his words better, but that was largely MSM manufactured outrage.

Right. Well, as long as it's convenient to think so, good luck with that.
posted by mattholomew at 11:06 AM on August 29, 2008

It's the equivalent of saying that she's an airhead because she participates in vapid, airheaded activities.

It's still an ad hominem attack for the most part, though. Dick Cheney is a bad vice president because he supports bad policies, not because he has stupid hobbies.
posted by burnmp3s at 11:06 AM on August 29, 2008

In thinking more about the bizarreness of this pick and it's shades of Bush's Harriet Miers moment...

I really wonder how the Republican establishment feels about it. Certainly the Wall St. Republicans who have always wanted a Romney-esq pick are probably a little unsettled.

I don't think it will happen, but I wouldn't be greatly surprised if, in a few news cycles, Palin declines or changes her mind in the same manner that Miers was quietly swept under the rug. Stranger things have happened...
posted by wfrgms at 11:06 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Okay, gyc, I'll bite -- why?

Because I oppose Obama's policies and, from my research of her political views, support hers. I think working with McCain, who has a wealth of experience to share, she will be ready to lead. She's also shown that she's willing to call out corruption in her own political party, while I haven't seen anything like that from Obama, even though he comes from one of the most corrupt political environment in the country.

It's nothing personal against Obama, I just don't agree with much of his policies and he hasn't shown much tendency to call out his own party when necessary, as opposed to McCain and now Palin.
posted by gyc at 11:06 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

The beauty pageant comments are an attempt to discredit her as an airheaded woman.

It's not that beauty queens are stupid. I think it has more like, beauty queens are to feminism what Stepin Feticht is to civil rights. They place a woman's looks above every other aspect of her, demeaning and objectifying women everywhere.
posted by Bookhouse at 11:06 AM on August 29, 2008 [12 favorites]

Oh please, jsonic. If you're not arguing that it's worthy of respect, than it's somehow off-limits to criticize a possible VP picks choices? *I* don't respect beauty pageants, and added to her record and positions, it's only one more thing that proves she's as non-feminist as they come. I find it absolutely fair game to criticize someone's non-feminism, as that's important to me. It has nothing to do with calling her an airhead - it's questioning her beliefs about women.
posted by agregoli at 11:07 AM on August 29, 2008

McCain couldn't chose Hillary for the same reason Obama couldn't : they want to stay alive.
posted by jeffburdges at 11:07 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Obama doesn't kiss Biden on the cheek like that.
posted by XMLicious at 11:07 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin believes the Earth is 4,000 years old. What the hell more do you need?

If I'm not mistaken McCain, Obama and Biden all profess to believe in the Zombie Carpenter From Galilee so what does that say about them?
posted by MikeMc at 11:08 AM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

Agreed. But I don't know why everyone's so quick to hate on or even be surprised by the "visceral" women; look at Obama's 90+ to 1 margin among black voters. Is the tribal nature of our politics so surprising to us that we can't move past it?

The idea that women were for Hillary just because she's a woman, or Blacks are for Obama just because he's black misses the point by a wide margin.

Blacks are so overwhelmingly for Obama because on a visceral level, his Blackness isn't the first thing they see, it's his obvious gifts. They well up with pride and emotion for Obama not because he's "one of us" because he's so damn good.

Women are so overwhelmingly for Clinton because on a visceral level, Her gender isn't the first thing they see, it's her obvious gifts. They well up with pride and emotion for Clinton not because she's "one of us", but because she's so damn good.

A lot of Black folks and Women have been seeing for the past 18 months what a lot of people just saw this week.

If McCain picked a Woman as a political ploy, then he truly doesn't get it. I mean, there's not a lot of women OR Black people exactly welling up with pride about Condoleeza Rice.

I think this might have been the best thing McCain could hae done, even if he did it for cynical, wrong headed reasons. If her being an Less experienced woman levels the playing field for him, then it levels the playing field for the Dems as well. If "experience", and "history" are off the table, that's just more room to talk about the bigger issues.

If McCain made this choice for cynical reasons, or because he really, really deep down in his heart believes Obama is an empty suit coasting in on a cult of personality, then he's in big trouble. Because from the looks of the past week, he has a bigger fight on his hands than he realizes.
posted by billyfleetwood at 11:08 AM on August 29, 2008 [14 favorites]

In thinking more about the bizarreness of this pick and it's shades of Bush's Harriet Miers moment...

I disagree. Social conservatives hated Miers because they didn't trust her to be a reliably conservative Justice. Meanwhile, most social conservatives so far seem to love Palin.
posted by gyc at 11:09 AM on August 29, 2008

Everyone cites a lack of experience, but that hasn't stopped Obama or Hillary.
posted by VicNebulous at 11:09 AM on August 29, 2008

I want to know why the hell McCain was fiddling with his wedding ring during her speech.
posted by kyleg at 11:10 AM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

Her voice isn't that far off from "Will & Grace's" Karen Walker!

Karen Walker for VP?
posted by ericb at 11:11 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Although some folks are calling this a move out of desperation, I don't think that's the case at all. McCain is pretty much running even with Obama, there's no desperation involved here. Hell, even his timing is spot on. You'll have to look deep to find any mention of Obama's speech, every news outlet is so busy reporting on Palin.

McCain's handlers are clearly on top of their game right now.
posted by tommasz at 11:12 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

MikeMc:

Thank you sir or madam, check's in the mail.
posted by mattholomew at 11:12 AM on August 29, 2008

DOES the Republican party have any 'respected, qualified' candidates who DON'T look like beauty contestants???

Sure. Maine's excellent Senator Olympia Snowe.

FYI: I'm a hardcore Dem and Obama supporter. I wish McCain had picked Olympia. She rocks.
posted by anastasiav at 11:12 AM on August 29, 2008

"She's also shown that she's willing to call out corruption in her own political party, while I haven't seen anything like that from Obama, even though he comes from one of the most corrupt political environment in the country."

And so the Coburn–Obama Transparency Act was... what exactly?
posted by shiu mai baby at 11:12 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

I'm going to have an honest question for my Republican friends that I know love this country: what if McCain dies?

"What do you mean?
Bill Clinton was 47 and governor of Arkansas when he became President. Sarah Palin is 44 and governor of Alaska and running for VP, not president. I can't understand why you call her "inexperienced".

Besides, she has given birth to five children. Even though she knew that the last one was going to be disabled. This alone proves that she can make the right choices and I trust that she would also be making the right choices as POTUS. She is strong and principled and she would also have the strength to make the right decisions as president.

How dare you criticize her just because she is from a small town?"

And how dare you diss John McCain, a former POW who lived in a box for five years and had to subsist on a thin stew of vegetables, beans, fish, potatoes, chicken, prawns and four kinds of rice.
posted by sour cream at 11:13 AM on August 29, 2008 [6 favorites]

Well shoot, high government experience has to count for something, doesn't it?

To be honest with you I'd rather see more candidates drawn from the civil service ranks that elected officials. Doesn't experience gained without begging lobbyists for money count for anything?
posted by MikeMc at 11:13 AM on August 29, 2008

McCain’s VP Choice Is Under Ethics Investigation For Abuse Of Power In Alaska
posted by homunculus at 11:15 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Well, I don't really know exactly what McCain was thinking with this choice. Get some disaffected Hillaryites I guess? But this totally shoots down his "experience" message, because he has picked someone with less experience by far than anyone else on either ticket, and this would be someone one step from being leader of the free world if McCain were elected. She does not inspire confidence in me, at all, from a leadership perspective.

Oh, there's one other benefit for McCain: there's nothing in the media records showing her attacking McCain for anything. For anyone better-known, like his primary opponents, there probably is.

As a Democrat, I'm not displeased at all by his choice. I don't think this selection particularly shores up any McCain weaknesses, but it does detract from the efficacy of his "experience" message. And without that...what else does he have? Not much!
posted by jamstigator at 11:15 AM on August 29, 2008

It's not a contest, it's a scholarship program!
posted by garlic at 11:15 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

gyc: I think working with McCain, who has a wealth of experience to share, she will be ready to lead.

Where does the "ready to lead" part come from? You share her position on policies, so would you be ready to lead if you were working with McCain? Does Palin's 1.5 years as governor tip the scales in her favor over you?

Ultimately, this "ready to lead" issue is crap. You think she's ready to lead because you want her to be. I think Obama is ready to lead because I want him to be. Neither of us has a clue how ready either of them are, because it is not a measurable quality. This is why we should vote on the issues. And it's also why we don't. Because voting based on what you want is easy, while voting based on what is likely is hard.
posted by schoolgirl report at 11:15 AM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

This is exactly the sort of VP candidate that I had been hoping Obama would pick — a governor from a Western or Southern state, youngish, a sort of rising star but who had carved out some idiosyncratic approaches rather than a party hack.

Instead, Obama chose an older white guy, a senator no less, from a small northeastern state. If that were a recipe for success, we'd be talking about whether or not VP Lieberman was considering a White House run about now. Biden is a nice guy, experienced, and really smart, but he doesn't exactly add a lot of zing to the ticket.

I think that this is a really smart move by McCain. She comes out of some pretty rough-and-tumble state politics (where the senior people are starting to have some real problems running into corruption charges), and is smart and fast on her feet. She's as tied to the energy business as anyone the GOP is likely to pick, but with a blend of western conservationism that permeates both parties out here. She's attractive and lively in a way that plays well against McCain, and he knows it.

So good for him, bad for my hopes of an end to republican presidents for the next four years.
posted by Forktine at 11:16 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

sour cream, again, has it.
posted by Artw at 11:16 AM on August 29, 2008

Schoolgirl report: The debates were moderated by male Democrats? . . . Which male democrats marketed these products? Which media talking heads were male Democrats? You're correct that it was not necessarily male democrats committing the original acts (though many journalists are both male and democrat), but look back at any of the Metafilter threads on the primaries for tons and tons of male democrats calling Hillary's camp whining whiners for calling out the weird debate dynamics and the sexist behavior and full of praise for Obama for downplaying the race card.

Which male Democrats said this? I never heard Obama say he was considering Clinton for vice president, and from the short list that was talked about in the media -- which most often is leaked by the candidate's staff to get opinions about it before the decision was made -- it was clear she wasn't on it.

Who the frak are you talking about? Male Democrats or the media? Male democrats I talked to at work the day after Clinton's speech, and male liberals commenting in "The Fray" at Slate.
posted by onlyconnect at 11:18 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

And so the Coburn–Obama Transparency Act was... what exactly?

A bill that passed by unanimous conseent in the Senate?
posted by gyc at 11:18 AM on August 29, 2008

Is there a source that shows Palin is a young-Earth creationist (Earth is only 6000 years old), or is she just a creationist (God got things going 4.5B years ago)? The two are pretty different.
posted by olinerd at 7:11 PM on August 29

They are both predicated on magic, and neither is science.
posted by plexi at 11:19 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

Beauty pageant participants are not automatically stupid, and no one here is saying that.

Yeah, and I'm sure that's why people keep bringing it up in order to dismiss her. Stay classy, guys.
posted by jsonic at 11:20 AM on August 29, 2008

'sup /b/?

I don't think think that there's anything sexist or chauvinistic about deriding any part of Palin questionable qualifications to be VP. In case anyone has been in a coma for the past seven years, let me remind them that the stakes are FAR TOO IMPORTANT to even allow such a person to even compete for the position.

A governor, you say? Yes, she is. Of a corrupt, former territory backwater which she took with 114,000 votes.

People, it's time we returned to 48 states.
posted by jsavimbi at 11:20 AM on August 29, 2008

Conservatives react to Palin.
posted by lunit at 11:20 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Because I oppose Obama's policies and, from my research of her political views, support hers.

Which means you oppose abortion rights and gay rights, while supporting capital punishment and the teaching of creationism in schools. She's a whistle-blower, I grant you that, but according to the Wikipedia, "Governor Palin is currently under investigation by an independent investigator hired by a legislative panel to determine if she abused her power when firing Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan."

Well, we'll see.
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 11:21 AM on August 29, 2008

jsonic, the beauty queen comments are coming from the fact that we're talking about a woman who was, literally, a beauty queen. Why is this an issue for you?

Because it's very clearly that it's being used in this thread, if not outright, but as a subtext, to insinuate that somehow she's not smart enough to be Veep.

Yeah, because when men who are former wrestlers, body builders, and actors campaign for office, no one ever makes comments about the lack of intelligence required in those lines of work. Get off it already.
posted by Nattie at 11:21 AM on August 29, 2008 [22 favorites]

Where does the "ready to lead" part come from? You share her position on policies, so would you be ready to lead if you were working with McCain? Does Palin's 1.5 years as governor tip the scales in her favor over you?

Sure, I would probably be just as ready to lead as Obama. He's been a Senator for 3.5 years, and has pretty much been spending most of that time campaigning to be President. Meanwhile, she's actually been spending her time as Governor actually governing and not running for another office.
posted by gyc at 11:22 AM on August 29, 2008

Besides, she has given birth to five children. Even though she knew that the last one was going to be disabled. This alone proves that she can make the right choices and I trust that she would also be making the right choices as POTUS.

So...every woman who has given birth is qualified to be POTUS? I don't understand the logic here.
posted by agregoli at 11:23 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I seriously think McCain's VP selection was probably the most important part of his campaign.

McCain's choice is much more important than Obama's due to his very real health issues. Thinking that people don't consider the VP of a 72 year old cancer survivor is amazingly naive, so to see so little thought put into this choice is quite remarkable. How did he expect the electorate to imagine her in the White House if something were to happen?

I've been watching his campaign make some pretty stellar blunders lately, but this is astounding. And it was CRUCIAL to get it right the first time.
posted by butterstick at 11:24 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

If I'm not mistaken McCain, Obama and Biden all profess to believe in the Zombie Carpenter From Galilee so what does that say about them?

Point.
posted by rokusan at 11:24 AM on August 29, 2008

I'd much rather have Palin as my President than Obama.

Wow, you must really hate America, huh.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:26 AM on August 29, 2008 [7 favorites]

I've read fifty-seven different people pointing out how this choice torpedoes McCain's previous attack on Obama's inexperience, but it seems everyone is missing the OTHER attack on Obama that this mitigates.

Palin named two of her children after TV witches. Witches.

You read it here first: I don't trust her. She's a secret pagan.
posted by rokusan at 11:26 AM on August 29, 2008 [18 favorites]

lunit, thanks for the link.

Tokenism. Can anyone say with a straight face that Palin would have gotten picked if she were a man?
posted by Surfurrus at 11:27 AM on August 29, 2008

anastasiav: I'm a hardcore Dem and Obama supporter. I wish McCain had picked Olympia. She rocks.

I agree, but a lot of republicans consider Olympia a liberal, which means she was never in the running.
posted by SteveInMaine at 11:27 AM on August 29, 2008

A bill that passed by unanimous conseent in the Senate?

Well, exactly. So I'm still trying to figure out how you can tout Palin's work against government corruption and yet say that you "haven't seen anything like that" from Obama, when he was one of the Senators who introduced the act. I mean, I have no illusions about persuading you to vote for the man, but if you're going to not vote for him, at least try to be accurate in your reasons why.
posted by shiu mai baby at 11:27 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

Also, heh heh headline: McCain taps Alaska Gov. Palin

Oh, to be a Daily Show writer today.
posted by rokusan at 11:28 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Even though she knew that the last one was going to be disabled. This alone proves that she can make the right choices and I trust that she would also be making the right choices as POTUS.

CrassFilter: I'd honestly have t say that she lacks the killer instinct that I'd like to see in my [potential] Commander in Chief.
posted by jsavimbi at 11:29 AM on August 29, 2008

Which means you oppose abortion rights and gay rights, while supporting capital punishment and the teaching of creationism in schools. She's a whistle-blower, I grant you that, but according to the Wikipedia, "Governor Palin is currently under investigation by an independent investigator hired by a legislative panel to determine if she abused her power when firing Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan."

I'm sure you agree 100% on every issue with your chosen candidate, right? Such as subsidies for corn ethanol and high tariffs for imported cellulosic ethanol, telecom immunity, being for the Bush-Cheney energy bill, being against gay marriage, and picking a corporate shill as Veep, right?
posted by gyc at 11:29 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Wikipedia better get rid of this pic of Palin giving a speech.
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 11:31 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

If I'm not mistaken McCain, Obama and Biden all profess to believe in the Zombie Carpenter From Galilee so what does that say about them?

So? There's a real different between being religious and being an extremist (what do you think a creationist is?) who wants to force schools to teach only their brand of craziness? Or are all non-atheists 100% alike?
posted by damn dirty ape at 11:31 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

plexi: agreed (I'm as atheist as they come), but to me, it's the difference between real fundamentalism and more mainstream Christianity. One scares the hell out of me, the other makes me a little nervous.

(Voting Obama in any case; just want to know what to argue about with the Republican parents)
posted by olinerd at 11:31 AM on August 29, 2008

Well, gvc, you're the one that made the original statement, not me.
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 11:32 AM on August 29, 2008

agregoli, sour cream was making fun of how a McCain voter might defend the Palin choice, I think. Read his/her comment again.
posted by Kwine at 11:32 AM on August 29, 2008

She hunts wookies! And wears their pelts!
posted by Artw at 11:32 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Plus, all the posts in here about how she only thinks the world is 4000 or 6000 years old are rather misguided, and it does her a lot of disrespect to paint her as a fundamentalist if she's not.

If she is, though, all's fair.
posted by olinerd at 11:32 AM on August 29, 2008

“She’s not from these parts, and she’s not from Washington, but when you get to know her, you’re going to be as impressed as I am,” Mr. McCain said as he introduced Ms. Palin to a crowd estimated by his campaign to be 15,000 at the Ervin J. Nutter Center here.

I am a Brit and this is far better than any soap opera, well did McCain deliberately chose the Nutter center to make this announcement from, Micheal Palin is this your doing?
posted by dollyknot at 11:33 AM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

so what does that say about them?

That they are all willing to tell a few unverifiable lies to pander to people who are demonstrably gullible, and to whom that fairy tale is extremely important?
posted by dirtdirt at 11:33 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Republican McCain picks woman as running mate
Keep it classy CNN.

Really though, what? Did they say "Obama picks man as running mate?" Obama picks caucasian as running mate?" Of course not, they would have just used Biden's name. Argh. This shit makes me mad. I guess they're just being honest though, I mean the reason she was chosen is that she's a woman.
posted by arcticwoman at 11:34 AM on August 29, 2008 [9 favorites]

It seems like most of the Obama supporters on Mefi (which is sort of redundant) think that this choice was a really bad idea for McCain.

I'm not sure they are the most reliable judges on this issue.
posted by Slap Factory at 11:35 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Ah yes, Kwine. Sorry, sour cream. Reads too closely to actual rhetoric these days.
posted by agregoli at 11:35 AM on August 29, 2008

She hunts wookies! And wears their pelts!

artw, more likely to be a wampa. Cold weather, don'tcha know.
posted by Guy_Inamonkeysuit at 11:35 AM on August 29, 2008

Is there a source that shows Palin is a young-Earth creationist (Earth is only 6000 years old), or is she just a creationist (God got things going 4.5B years ago)? The two are pretty different.

I'm going to guess that she'll probably "believe" both depending on the audience.

"Teach the controversy about Evolution!" is a dog-whistle that means different things in different settings. If Palin said something like that in a Baptist church, most listeners would *think* that she means a 6000 year old Earth. If she said something like that in, say, a Rotary Club meeting, most people would *think* she's just saying "Yeah, the Earth is real old but God created it!"

Creationism isn't about details anyway. Creationism has no details. Modern American Creationism is just a backdoor way to get God and Jesus back into classrooms, so the actual mechanics of little things like the age of the Earth are unimportant to creationist politicians. The most important thing, to them, is putting little stickers in science books that say "JESUS PROBABLY DID THIS!!!" so that kids will see that and stop doing drugs and being gay, or something.
posted by Avenger at 11:35 AM on August 29, 2008 [30 favorites]

Republican McCain picks woman as running mate

Well, it's not like anyone knows anything else about her without googling it.
posted by Artw at 11:36 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

It's still an ad hominem attack for the most part, though.

So? It's an attack that's ad the hominem that's running for election.

This isn't a debate, where "You are a terrible person, therefore your position is invalid" is treyf.

This is an election, where "You are a terrible person, so people should not vote for you" is entirely kosher.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:37 AM on August 29, 2008 [6 favorites]

Besides, she has given birth to five children. Even though she knew that the last one was going to be disabled. This alone proves that she can make the right choices and I trust that she would also be making the right choices as POTUS.

What if she gets pregnant with #6 while in office?
posted by bink at 11:37 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

Palin has more executive governmental experience than Obama and Biden combined.

Population of Alaska: 683,478
Population of Fort Worth, TX: 681,818

If I'm not mistaken McCain, Obama and Biden all profess to believe in the Zombie Carpenter From Galilee so what does that say about them?

They live in a country where you have to profess that to get elected.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:37 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

A choice so crazy that it's political genius. A choice so far from anyone's expectations and so middle America that everybody forgot about that guy who gave a speech in Denver last night and they're talking about Sarah Palin.

I can imagine a GOP strategist saying (a la "Wag the Dog,") "Suppose instead of a VP, we're casting a reality show. Who can we find that is so Middle America that she wouldn't miss the lane if she bowled, could slug back a couple of boilermakers without wincing, clings to guns and religion hard enough to make Obama stop looking off into the distance and gaze at her and has some experience in elected office." I think a lot of Americans will see themselves in her.
posted by Frank Grimes at 11:37 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

She just said "nuke-ular."
posted by [NOT HERMITOSIS-IST] at 11:40 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

Jesus tap-dancing Christ. If McCain wanted a former beauty queen with no experience and a criminal investigation on her record I don’t know why he didn’t just pick his own wife.

Tell us how you really feel . . .

I'm amazed he picked her with that investigation still outstanding. It's a huge distraction. Did he even really vet her?
posted by Critical_Beatdown at 11:40 AM on August 29, 2008

I think a lot of Americans will see themselves in her.

Too bad the likelihood is that those those same Americans won't follow that thought to its logical conclusion, namely, most of us aren't anywhere nearly qualified enough to be Vice President of the United States. Me, I'd be pissing myself in abject terror.
posted by shiu mai baby at 11:41 AM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

Oh good Christ...
posted by Artw at 11:41 AM on August 29, 2008

olinerd: Is there a source that shows Palin is a young-Earth creationist (Earth is only 6000 years old), or is she just a creationist (God got things going 4.5B years ago)? The two are pretty different.

rokusan's comment made me go looking to confirm that and I couldn't. All I'm finding is that she said creationism should be discussed in school (backing off from a previous statement where she appeared to say it should be part of Alaska public school curriculum) and that she believes there is a creator. So this may be an equivalent of the "Obama is a Muslim" FUD.
posted by XMLicious at 11:42 AM on August 29, 2008

A choice so far from anyone's expectations and so middle America that everybody forgot about that guy who gave a speech in Denver last night and they're talking about Sarah Palin.

Which is all well and good, but you need to have more bullets in the gun to satisfy the media machine, or else they will bury you. In other words, you can steal thunder now (and everyone knew you could, simply because of the timing of the conventions), but what will you talk about on the Monday morning after the Republican convention?

McCain will talk about patriotism.
Obama will talk about hope.
Biden will talk about that time he knocked back beers with world leaders and all his time in the Senate.
Palin will talk about ... talk about ... umm ... ?

It's not a good long-term move, IMO.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 11:44 AM on August 29, 2008

Little known facts about Sarah Palin

Little Known Fact: Sarah Palin keeps her hair in a beehive to hide her ninja weaponry.
Little Known Fact: Sarah Palin will send Biden a pre-debate cheat sheet. The sheet will have tips on defending against Kung Fu Death Grip.
Little Known Fact: Sarah Palin became governor because five children left her with too much spare energy.
Little Known Fact: Sarah Palin's hotness is the largest single contributor to melting polar ice caps.

...and so on
posted by Class Goat at 11:44 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

So? There's a real different between being religious and being an extremist

The difference is one epiphany. One "I saw the light" moment is all that separates the casually religious from the "True Believers". And if, as some have mentioned, they don't really believe but need to say they do, well, I guess it's ok to take advantage of people's personal beliefs for your own political gain. All's fair in love and war after all.
posted by MikeMc at 11:44 AM on August 29, 2008

Palin will talk about ... talk about ... umm ... ?

Palin will talk about getting rid of corruption.
posted by Class Goat at 11:45 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Now you'll have another target for misogynist vitriol besides Ann Coulter or Michelle Malkin.

As opposed to Islamophobic bigotry for someone who isn't even Muslim, of course.

Interesting tactic, for Republican thugs to call anyone who questions Palin's choice a misogynist, when Palin was picked by a man, McCain, for the cynical reason that she is a woman.

How you guys get away with this, I'll never figure out. But it's fascinating to see you get away with this tactic time and time again. It never gets old.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:46 AM on August 29, 2008 [20 favorites]

A governor, you say? Yes, she is. Of a corrupt, former territory backwater which she took with 114,000 votes.

You make her sound almost..."Clintonesque".
posted by MikeMc at 11:47 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Palin will talk about ... talk about ... umm ... ?

She will talk about defending unborn life and other conservative social issues. McCain isn't supported enthusiastically by social conservatives, and Palin fits the bill perfectly.
posted by jsonic at 11:48 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

If I'm not mistaken McCain, Obama and Biden all profess to believe in the Zombie Carpenter From Galilee so what does that say about them?

Not sure what it says about them, but casting sweeping generalizations across millions of people in this country who call themselves "Christian" says a lot about you. They all think, feel and believe the same things, right? Way to rise above the intolerance you supposedly rail against.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:49 AM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

Palin will talk about getting rid of corruption.

McCain’s VP Choice Is Under Ethics Investigation For Abuse Of Power In Alaska
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:50 AM on August 29, 2008

kyleg: I want to know why the hell McCain was fiddling with his wedding ring during her speech.

I thought this was a joke, but I watched the video- you're totally right, and it's totally creepy.
posted by mkultra at 11:50 AM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

Reminds me of the chutzpah & cynicism involved when GHW Bush appointed Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court to replace Thurgood Marshall. Hey- Palin's a woman, Hillary's a woman, and all women are just alike. Right?

Clarence Thomas is to Thurgood Marshall as Sarah Palin is to Hillary Clinton.

Chalk & cheese.
posted by squalor at 11:52 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

Palin will talk about ... talk about ... umm ... ?

about her husband hit by shrapnel in Iraq

about her son who'll be deployed in Iraq on 9/11

about the time when the doctor told her she was carrying a Down's syndrome baby and she decided to keep it

about hockey, PTAs, hockey moms, etc.

all while looking so very white, so very American, smalltown American, so very non threatening.

So non-Muslim.
posted by matteo at 11:52 AM on August 29, 2008 [18 favorites]

Little Known Fact: Sarah Palin keeps her hair in a beehive to hide her ninja weaponry.
Little Known Fact: Sarah Palin will send Biden a pre-debate cheat sheet. The sheet will have tips on defending against Kung Fu Death Grip.
Little Known Fact: Sarah Palin became governor because five children left her with too much spare energy.
Little Known Fact: Sarah Palin's hotness is the largest single contributor to melting polar ice caps.

I will vote for whichever presidential campaign promises to have Chuck-Norrisian yucksters dragged out to the old granite quarry and shot in the head.
posted by Uppity Pigeon #2 at 11:53 AM on August 29, 2008 [7 favorites]

Palin will talk about ... talk about ... umm ... ?

Palin will talk about getting rid of corruption.

She's decided to withdraw already?
posted by Bookhouse at 11:54 AM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Palin will talk about getting rid of corruption.

"Only Nixon can go to China." - Old Vulcan proverb
posted by Bromius at 11:54 AM on August 29, 2008

I think a lot of Americans will see themselves in her.

Is that sexual innuendo based on her physical attractiveness? If so, I laughed.

I can't keep up.

Honestly, isn't 8 years of this dipshit President (and his even dumber heir apparent in McCain) enough of an argument to kill this "I vote for the candidate I most want to have a beer with" nonsense that idiots like Chris Matthews and Joe Scarborough harp on so endlessly?
posted by psmealey at 11:55 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

Sorry, I learned about her creationism right here in this thread... which I will henceforth stop trusting before factchecking. :)
posted by rokusan at 11:56 AM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

They all think, feel and believe the same things, right?

Isn't God creating the Earth one of the bedrock tenets of Christianity (and the other Abrahamic religions) ? If Palin is a "Young Earth" Creationist is she really that far from other Christians many, if not most, of whom believe the Bible is the Divine Word of God?
posted by MikeMc at 11:56 AM on August 29, 2008

Can we please retire "[keep it | stay] classy"?
posted by everichon at 11:58 AM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

all while looking so very white, so very American, smalltown American, so very non threatening.

... and with five kids I guess we know she could be awakened easily by a three am phone call ...

[ oops, she probably has five (undocumented?) nannies! ]
posted by Surfurrus at 12:00 PM on August 29, 2008

Can we please retire "[keep it | stay] classy"?

Classy retired years ago and is fishing up in Lake Obichokee, fifty miles up Rt. 9.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:01 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

If Palin is a "Young Earth" Creationist is she really that far from other Christians many, if not most, of whom believe the Bible is the Divine Word of God?

There is actually a large continuum of belief on this matter. Very few of the Catholics I grew up with, and likely none of the Jesuits I knew, regarded the Bible as something to be taken as literal truth.

I am pretty sure this is also true for certain Protestant denominations as well.

/not a believer in anything except Bacchus
posted by everichon at 12:01 PM on August 29, 2008

Wait, so as far as her creationism goes, wanting it to be part of the state educational curriculum isn't damning enough?

I'm sure the red-meat evangelicals will love her for it, but I think that's pretty wrongheaded.
posted by butterstick at 12:01 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

MikeMc: If Palin is a "Young Earth" Creationist is she really that far from other Christians many, if not most, of whom believe the Bible is the Divine Word of God?

In a thread full of allegations of sexism, this has to be the most culturally ignorant thing said here so far.
posted by mkultra at 12:02 PM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

She is like "Ice Road Truckers," "Deadliest Catch," "Dirty Jobs," "Survivorman" and "Next Top Model" all rolled into one with a dash of "Orange County Choppers" meets "Wife Swap" (her husband is a snow mobile racer). The GOP saw that TV viewers wanted this and they delivered. Reagan came from Hollywood and now that scripted shows are fading into history it's time for a reality show candidate.
posted by Frank Grimes at 12:03 PM on August 29, 2008 [6 favorites]

The difference is one epiphany.

So? What isnt that true of? Non-religious people convert all the time to being religious and religious people convert to being non-religious. There's no guarantees in life, especially in politics.
posted by damn dirty ape at 12:03 PM on August 29, 2008

If Palin is a "Young Earth" Creationist is she really that far from other Christians many, if not most, of whom believe the Bible is the Divine Word of God?

Yes. Most modern, "enlightened" Christians believe that the Old Testament was crafted in a pre-literate time when such stories had to be told using vivid imagery on their audiences, and that while they agree with the prevailing messages, dismiss the literal "truth" of it.

Not sure where the numbers break down among Christians as a group, but anecdotally most mainline Protestants and Catholics think that "Young Earth" Creationists are morons.
posted by psmealey at 12:03 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

> FYI: I'm a hardcore Dem and Obama supporter. I wish McCain had picked Olympia. She rocks.

Agreed. Sadly, Snowe's brand of Republicanism no longer flies outside of New England and maybe a few other quasi-blue areas. She'd be a no-go in much of the country for exactly the same reasons why I (and probably many other MeFites) find her so attractive as a candidate: she's a secularist, pro-choice, pro-environment, if-not-pro-than-at-least-not-anti-gay Republican. The pro-choice part alone would scuttle her in large parts of the country.

I think at least at one point I remember her being listed as a member/supporter of the Republican Majority for Choice, but they seem to no longer list affiliated members of Congress.
posted by Kadin2048 at 12:04 PM on August 29, 2008

Wait, so as far as her creationism goes, wanting it to be part of the state educational curriculum isn't damning enough?

Oh yeah, that's damning, it's just in no way an excuse to make shit up about here religious beliefs.
posted by XMLicious at 12:05 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

If anything non-religious people are MORE likely to spontaniously convert to the batshitinane branches of religion.
posted by Artw at 12:05 PM on August 29, 2008

Here's the thing: it's not the inexperience--experience as such is not necessarily dispositive--she's not accomplished. She's not a policy wonk; she does not have academic credentials; she has virtually no legislative experience of any kind; nothing in her resume even remotely suggests that she has a clue about matters of national security or foreign policy. I am not impressed. I want to be impressed. I want somebody smart and accomplished in the White House.

You say the same thing about Obama? I say bullshit. Give them both a fucking quiz. In fact, give all four candidates a quiz. Any issue, any policy, the Bible, the history of the Republican party. Whatever.

How we got to calling a law professor, policy expert with a steel trap memory and a powerful, nuanced intellect a naive, inexperienced and unprepared candidate will never cease to amaze me. How we got to calling yet another son of privilege of below average intelligence "ready to lead" and "strong" on foreign policy amazes me even more.

Palin is not impressive. She just isn't. There are impressive conservatives out there--many of them are women. This particular woman is weak sauce, and while clearly a talented politician and not totally frivolous, not the sort of accomplished person, thinker, or intellect--left or right, that can competently occupy the second seat, and, lest we forget, preside over the fucking Senate.
posted by kosem at 12:05 PM on August 29, 2008 [96 favorites]

Also, for whatever it’s worth, I’m totally okay with the fact that Obama is far more of a Christian than McCain.
posted by Artw at 12:07 PM on August 29, 2008 [6 favorites]

What if she gets pregnant with #6 while in office?

What is that supposed to mean?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:08 PM on August 29, 2008 [8 favorites]

Did he even really vet her?

Not he, per se, but they did and their pick is great. They're surrendering the election before their own convention and they're getting their ducks lined up for 2012. All the while showing that McCain received what he was promised and they build some capital with the nut wing and women voters by throwing Palin up there.

The outcome is great for them, even though they lose this one. If she does well, they'll be able to use her to help build up the candidates in the next election, generating goodwill and plenty of TV coverage because SHE'S A GOOD LOOKING WOMAN. Maybe she'll even take over for Stevens. If she does poorly, come next election when women republicans demand another candidate (I'm being silly here), the good ol' boys can come back and say "Look, we gave it a shot, but women just aren't electable" and the issue won't rear its head for another fifty years. And they can say the same thing to "values voters". All this paves the way for Michael Bloomberg, a serious candidate with experience, in 2012.

You read it here first.
posted by jsavimbi at 12:08 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Cool Papa Bell: McCain will talk about patriotism.
Obama will talk about hope.
Biden will talk about that time he knocked back beers with world leaders and all his time in the Senate.
Palin will talk about ... talk about ... umm ... ?

Palin will talk about how the doctor told her that her child will have Down syndrome.
How she discussed the issue with her family.
How she made a decision.
How she held the little baby in her arms and it was sooo sweet and she realized it was the right decision (which she knew all along).

And the whole country will go: Awwwwww...

How she can't understand that anyone can even consider murdering such a sweet little baby.
How hundred thousands are killed every year. Not in Iraq, but in our hospitals.
How it is now your turn to make the right decision on election day.

Thereby giving you the choice to vote for her ticket or for the baby killers.
posted by sour cream at 12:09 PM on August 29, 2008 [14 favorites]

Isn't God creating the Earth one of the bedrock tenets of Christianity (and the other Abrahamic religions) ?

Sure, but there's the notion that God created the Big Bang, God created the universe but not 6,000 years ago, and so on. Not everyone believes the Bible is a science textbook. I guess what really irks me about this is I have to not only watch the Talibaptists strangle this country just like everyone else, but I watch them strangle my faith as well. Where's the tolerance and forgiveness among these people? If the topic of religion comes up in mixed company - and it's a topic I avoid like the plague - I'll hear otherwise tolerant and intelligent people describe Christians as clinic-bombing, snake-handling, tongue-speaking, neo-fascist pricks. And the sad part is, I can't really blame them. It's the evangelicals who've muscled their way into the spotlight for the past 25 years or so. It doesn't matter how many other political leaders in history, in this country, and in the world in general have been both professed Christians and perfectly reasonable and tolerant people - it's the Pentacostalist voodoo men who get the air time. And my same multi-cultural, feminist, anti-war friends will use the word "Christian" as pretty much synonyous with these insane bigots. It just sicks and saddens me.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:10 PM on August 29, 2008 [10 favorites]

The Dinosaur and the Ditz. One can't remember anything after he was released from his POW camp, the other is campaigning for a job without knowing what it is.

"Because it's very clearly that it's being used in this thread, if not outright, but as a subtext, to insinuate that somehow she's not smart enough to be Veep."

She believes in Creationism. She's not smart enough for school board.
posted by klangklangston at 12:10 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

Ta-daaa! VPILF.COM
posted by Class Goat at 12:11 PM on August 29, 2008

You're scaring me with how good at this you are.
posted by Artw at 12:11 PM on August 29, 2008

(That would be sour cream, not Mr. Goat)
posted by Artw at 12:12 PM on August 29, 2008

Metafilter: batshitinane.
posted by cog_nate at 12:12 PM on August 29, 2008

"Wait, so as far as her creationism goes, wanting it to be part of the state educational curriculum isn't damning enough?"

Oh yeah, that's damning, it's just in no way an excuse to make shit up about here religious beliefs.

Fair enough, and noted. I see that some do, but I take no issue with her beliefs (cloudy as they are as of yet). I take issue with an attempt to foist them on schoolchildren, so as far as I'm concerned she's still got shitty judgment.
posted by butterstick at 12:14 PM on August 29, 2008

In a thread full of allegations of sexism, this has to be the most culturally ignorant thing said here so far.

This is America, there is no culture here.

and that while they agree with the prevailing messages, dismiss the literal "truth" of it.

Not sure where the numbers break down among Christians as a group, but anecdotally most mainline Protestants and Catholics think that "Young Earth" Creationists are morons.

I agree that most mainline Christians don't take the Bible literally, but if you don't why bother calling yourself a Christian? I would think Unitarian might be a better choice. Is it just me?.
posted by MikeMc at 12:15 PM on August 29, 2008

Maybe she'll even take over for Stevens.

BWAAHAAHAHAHAHA! Please tell me you're kidding. Because you are, after all, talking about someone WHO DOES NOT HAVE A LEGAL DEGREE.

I am seriously having a Mugatu-esqe "I feel like I'm taking crazy pills!" moment about that prediction.
posted by shiu mai baby at 12:15 PM on August 29, 2008

Voters can be willfully smart or stubbornly stupid, so it's hard to see how this will go over. Either way, the past two elections and their practical results have taught me that whatever the outcome, as a whole we pretty much get the president we earn and deserve.
posted by troybob at 12:17 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Todd Palin
posted by small_ruminant at 12:17 PM on August 29, 2008

Ta-daaa! VPILF.COM

Vice Presidents I'd Like to Fuck?

Is this what Republicans meant by picking her based on her merits? It's nice to see your party show such respect for your own candidate.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:19 PM on August 29, 2008

Oh wait -- I just realized you were probably referring to Series of Tubes Ted, and not the most senior member of the Supreme Court. Sorry about that.

You were talking about Ted, right?
posted by shiu mai baby at 12:20 PM on August 29, 2008

It's the evangelicals who've muscled their way into the spotlight for the past 25 years or so.

It's the non-evangelicals who have remained conveniently silent about them when it happens to suit their moralizing or political needs.
posted by troybob at 12:22 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Sarah Palin opposes listing polar bears as a threatened species.

Why? Because it could restrict the oil industry that fills her pockets. I can't help but wonder if the republican VP position is now a defacto big-oil position.
posted by furtive at 12:23 PM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

Reminds me of the chutzpah & cynicism involved when GHW Bush appointed Clarence Thomas to the Supreme Court to replace Thurgood Marshall.

Or like when Jack Ryan dropped out of the 2004 Senate race against Obama and the GOP replaced him with Alan Keyes.

You're going to hear a lot about Palin's toughness, demonstrated by her delivering a speech after her water broke when she was carrying her fifth child. Here's a reply to a Nat Hentoff column (scroll down to the last comment by JakeW) that takes a different view of her actions and contrasts it against her pro-life positions:

Palin made the decision to travel to Texas to a Governor's conference while 36 weeks pregnant, a time during which obstetricians would tell you it’s foolish to travel via plane. Air travel is a known risk for pregnancy complications, which is indeed what happened. The governor, while on a self-promoting trip to deliver a speech, had premature rupture of fetal membranes: her water broke.

Call your local OB department and ask what to do if you think that your water has broken. You’ll be advised to seek an immediate hands-on examination by an obstetrician. The baby will be placed on a monitor to make sure it’s OK. Premature rupture of membranes can lead to life-threatening infection and premature delivery.

What did Sarah Palin do? She did NOT go to a local hospital and did NOT have her baby checked on a fetal monitor to make sure it was OK. She called her family practice doctor in Alaska for advice. What advice was given isn’t clear, but it’s clearly quoted that she "did not ask for a medical OK to fly". Whether it was OK to fly should be the FIRST question anyone considering traveling by air should have, if they were at all interested in protecting the life of the unborn. Regardless, she decided to give her speech at the conference without having any evaluation other than the long-distance advice of a family practitioner. Her speech was more important to her than making any effort to make sure her unborn child was OK. Then, she decided to fly back to Alaska, an 11-hour trip. In addition, she failed to inform flight personnel that her water had broken.

I don't know much about obstetrics, so I can't really judge whether JakeW's accusations have any merit. But it's an interesting take on a story that's going to be coming up a lot.
posted by hydrophonic at 12:24 PM on August 29, 2008 [32 favorites]

When I casually mentioned this lady as McCain's choice today (while at the gym) three out of three times I was told by each person I was speaking to that they were voting for McCain.

No, the deal is that we have a woman who's been governor of of a state (population of which is smaller than Obama's congressional district) for a mere 18 months, and before that was a mayor of a town smaller than the one where Elvis was born. We've got that and the beauty queen thing to go on

We have someone who is just about as far away from the Washington beltway as it is possible to get. Someone who has already been known to fight against corruption. Someone who has proved she is a very strong campaigner, even when her own party was not a fan of hers. Joe Sixpack is gonna be thrilled.

Guys, I hear you re the experience thing, but I think you'd better not underestimate this woman. It takes a really strong, really forceful person to do what she has done and not only that, at the same time be a parent to five children. She is not only prolife but has a down's syndrome child in a time where many of these children are indeed aborted. People like my son, who up until now was planning to write in a candidate rather than vote for either, are going to at the very least sit up and take notice.

I had never even heard of her before today, but I think we'd all better fasten our seatbelts. We ain't seen nuttin' yet. This is gonna be quite a ride.
posted by konolia at 12:25 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Palin will talk about getting rid of corruption.

Republican corruption? That should be fun to watch.
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:26 PM on August 29, 2008

[Todd] Palin's advocacy dovetails neatly with his wife's No. 1 priority: forging a construction contract with private companies to transport natural gas from the North Slope to the Lower 48. The export of natural gas would presumably replace revenue from the state's dwindling oil reserves, which funded 80 percent of the state budget last year.

The oil connections get thicker.
posted by furtive at 12:27 PM on August 29, 2008

Harriet Miers Jr.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:28 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

What if she gets pregnant with #6 while in office?

What is that supposed to mean?

Just that: what if? She is still of childbearing age, had the last one just a few months ago, and hasn't gone four years without being pregnant in a while; I think it's relevant. How would the stresses of such a job combine with a pregnancy? She's had babies while in office in Alaska, but how does that translate to the far bigger job of VP or POTUS?
posted by bink at 12:30 PM on August 29, 2008

MikeMc : I agree that most mainline Christians don't take the Bible literally, but if you don't why bother calling yourself a Christian? I would think Unitarian might be a better choice. Is it just me?

Yeah, that would be just you. Christians generally call themselves Christians because they believe that Christ was a divine being. (And I've even run into some who don't believe that and still call themselves Christians.)

</atheist>
posted by XMLicious at 12:30 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

Oops, that should be ...is a divine being.
posted by XMLicious at 12:31 PM on August 29, 2008

Because it's very clearly that it's being used in this thread, if not outright, but as a subtext, to insinuate that somehow she's not smart enough to be Veep.

LOL. The repub defenders are revealing their hidden prejudices, methinks.
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:32 PM on August 29, 2008

It's the non-evangelicals who have remained conveniently silent about them when it happens to suit their moralizing or political needs.

Some have remained silent, but I think it's erroneous to claim that you know why. Maybe some people believe they can be worked with, and toned down. Others, like Richard Cizik, have tried changing the structure from within. Others still see idiots like Robertson and Haggard call themselves Christian, then hear their own friends talk about Christians in general as being crazy fascists, and think, "Well, fuck this." Sure, it avoids a moral obligation to right a wrong, but I think it's perfectly natural that some people just don't get involved in the entire discussion - not right, just understandable. I think there's also some complicity in believe that Christians are more easily represented by people like Swaggart than people like Tutu - that it's the hypocritical grandstander, and not the civil activist, who best represents what being Christian means.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:32 PM on August 29, 2008

Pat Buchanan said that the Palin pick was the "biggest political gamble I believe just about in American political history." Interesting thing to say about a candidate like McCain with a known weakness for craps.

Only recently have McCain's aides urged him to pull back from the pastime. In the heat of the G.O.P. primary fight last spring, he announced on a visit to the Vegas Strip that he was going to the casino floor. When his aides stopped him, fearing a public relations disaster, McCain suggested that they ask the casino to take a craps table to a private room, a high-roller privilege McCain had indulged in before. His aides, with alarm bells ringing, refused again, according to two accounts of the discussion.

"He clearly knows that this is on the borderline of what is acceptable for him to be doing," says a Republican who has watched McCain play. "And he just sort of revels in it."

Did McCain roll the dice with the vice presidency?
posted by gerryblog at 12:33 PM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

VPILF.COM

Oy god.
posted by cortex at 12:33 PM on August 29, 2008

Just that: what if? She is still of childbearing age

You realize you are essentially questioning if a woman can be president or VP because she might get preggers, right?
posted by jsonic at 12:33 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

MikeMc, you don't know much about Xtianity in the United States, do you?
posted by everichon at 12:34 PM on August 29, 2008

We have someone who is just about as far away from the Washington beltway as it is possible to get.

This, IMHO, is her strongest selling point and appeals to people, like myself, who are tired of the same tired faces and the same "business as usual" candidates. If only Obama and McCain would swap running mates. Two entrenched Beltway hands vs. a couple of fresh young faces, that would be a race for the ages.
posted by MikeMc at 12:35 PM on August 29, 2008

How would the stresses of such a job combine with a pregnancy?

Not super well, but I know lots of women who have had babies while holding down a stressful job. Everybody involved is fine.

Also, I hope she loses.
posted by Camofrog at 12:35 PM on August 29, 2008

It's the non-evangelicals who have remained conveniently silent about them when it happens to suit their moralizing or political needs.

Some have remained silent, but I think it's erroneous to claim that you know why.

I didn't claim to know why. Just when.
posted by troybob at 12:36 PM on August 29, 2008

You realize you are essentially questioning if a woman can be president or VP because she might get preggers, right?

No kidding. Yes, being Vice President or President is stressful. I don't know of any job that isn't stressful (and if there is a stress-free job out there, could someone please tell me where it is, because I'm about to snap necks over here, and I am not anywhere near Vice President of the US). Women have been getting pregnant since the beginning of history, and the working world hasn't come to end, so should Palin chose to add to her familiy while holding the office of Vice President, I'm sure everyone will be just fine.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:37 PM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

You realize you are essentially questioning if a woman can be president or VP because she might get preggers, right?

You realize your party regularly questions if Obama can be president because he is black and has a Muslim-sounding name, right?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:38 PM on August 29, 2008 [18 favorites]

I think the saddest thing about all of this is, it shows what a crap system democracy is.

Well it might be as Churchill stated "It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried"

The problem is, all the followers of Goebbels out there, think language should not be used for communication, the only purpose of language is to manipulate, but wait the Neocons did not use language, they used semiotics, they said go for the Billary vote by waving a beauty queen at us.

The low opinion most advertisers and spammers, have for the rest of humanity is indicative of the problem.

I vote Chinese.
posted by dollyknot at 12:40 PM on August 29, 2008

When I casually mentioned this lady as McCain's choice today (while at the gym) three out of three times I was told by each person I was speaking to that they were voting for McCain.

When I casually mentioned this woman as McCain's choice today (while at the gym) three out of three times I was told by each person I was speaking to that they were voting for Obama.
posted by ericb at 12:40 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I agree with DaShiv that this is a risky move with potential huge payoffs for McCain. I think the elections of 2000 and 2004 showed very clearly that winning elections when the electorate is divided so closely between conservatives and progressives isn't about appealing to the mythical "independent voter." It's about mobilizing your base, so more of your people than those of your opponent are fired up to go to the polls.

The reason this could pay off so hugely:

1. McCain recognized that social conservatives who were kind of meh about him could be a huge problem. By nominating a social conservative who is on the right side of all those issues, he fires up the base and makes it more likely they'll come out to vote rather than stay home. Her strong anti-choice positions are probably somewhat softened for a lot of moderate Republican women because she supports things like Feminists for Life--a group that pays at least lip service to expanding the resources that unexpectedly pregnant women have so they aren't forced to abort. And true pro-choicers and progressives aren't ever going to vote for McCain anyway, so there's no loss there.

2. McCain has obviously already recognized that not only does he need to get his base to the polls, but he needs to neutralize the enormous groundswell of support that Obama has from the left. I'd argue that his ads talking about how Hillary was passed over aren't really about convincing her disillusioned supporters to vote for him--that'd be a tough sell--but rather to keep them angry and disillusioned enough that they just don't show up at all. His choice of Palin is probably going to be really effective on this score as well. What do you want to bet we're going to see a bunch of the petty, sexist crap** flung at her that was flung at Hillary? Seeing that shit for 2 months won't make a lot of women want to vote for McCain, but it very well may make a lot of them stay home, reasoning that they can't in good conscience vote for either candidate because they're too disgusted with the whole thing.

**To all those who say "talking about her derisively for being in a beauty pagent isn't sexist!!", I'd urge you to read onlyconnect's comment, which hits the nail on the head. You don't have to agree with her analysis, but if you weren't someone who thought that Hillary faced a lot of sexist bullshit in the primaries, you're not really the target of this anyway. I was someone who was pissed off at her treatment, and I absolutely see how 2 months of crap from Democrats along those lines would make it hard for me to want to show up and vote, no matter how much I hate McCain. Which is probably exactly what McCain is going for.
posted by iminurmefi at 12:41 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

I watched her speech on CNN this morning and felt like I was being given a cheery yet unpleasant talking to by the church lady. That voice! Poor McCain looks all that much more on death's door standing next to her, even though she'd incredibly prim and oldish for her age. She looks more like my grandmother than my mother, by a long shot.

Uhm, wtf is a PUMA, please?

I am hoping for the best for you long suffering Americans, I don't know how you can stand the cynical moves, the lies, the smears, and the hypocrisy for such a protracted length of time and all done with so much gusto! The republicans really seem to revel in it, it's gross. You really need to have shortened campaign time frame, written in law (not to mention pencil & paper ballots right across the country). I can only watch a few minutes of this stuff on your news and I start to feeling incredibly anxious, it takes my breath away. I'm gonna have to avoid it altogether now, since poor old Canada is about to be thrust into a federal election and I'll need all my nerve for that particular crock of shit, lol.

Best of luck Democrats, you have the best candidate, may he win.
posted by zarah at 12:42 PM on August 29, 2008

MikeMc, you don't know much about Xtianity in the United States, do you?

I try no to. Between Catholics, evangelicals, mainline Protestants, Mormons, Greek Orthodox, Coptics, Amish, Mennonites, Chaldeans etc... it's all too much for me to keep track of.
posted by MikeMc at 12:44 PM on August 29, 2008

>It's the non-evangelicals who have remained conveniently silent about them when it happens to suit their moralizing or political needs.

>Some have remained silent, but I think it's erroneous to claim that you know why.

>I didn't claim to know why. Just when.

Huh. Still sounds like you're claiming you know the reasons behind the silence of some, but alright.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:44 PM on August 29, 2008

You realize you are essentially questioning if a woman can be president or VP because she might get preggers, right?

You realize what a misguided question this is, right?

Aside from Palin hypothetically bearing a child, you realize the Republican party also does anything it can to make life miserable for almost all working pregnant women and low-income families trying to raise children in the United States, right?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:44 PM on August 29, 2008 [6 favorites]

She believes in Creationism. She's not smart enough for school board.

Reagan, Creatonist: 8 years in office.

Bush II, Creatonist: 8 years in office

Bush I, unclear, but his VP was indeed a proud creationist: 4 years in office.

Mondale, Kerry, Edwards, Gore -- all non-Creatonists.

see, this is why Republicans get such a kick out of beating you guys, because you always, always get it wrong about this stuff.

People like my son, who up until now was planning to write in a candidate rather than vote for either, are going to at the very least sit up and take notice

oh, Palin will energize the fetus/Jesus base, nobody here is denying that. McCain, for all his talk about bogus stories of "gooks" (his word, not mine) drawing crosses in the dirt, is indeed secular and has little love for the fundies (who hate him back, despite his solid anti-Roe record). what's your point? everybody knows she's good to energize the fundies (except those who have a problem with her Catholicism, there must still be some anti-Papists out there).

(while at the gym)

this would not be one of those gyms right next -- or inside -- evangelical church compounds, right? just to have a better idea about where your sample is coming from.
posted by matteo at 12:45 PM on August 29, 2008

Blaze and TPS, I'm starting to really like you guys. I may have to go lie down somewhere with a cool towel on my forehead.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:46 PM on August 29, 2008

Is there a source that shows Palin is a young-Earth creationist (Earth is only 6000 years old), or is she just a creationist (God got things going 4.5B years ago)? The two are pretty different.

The latter isn't even a scientific question, it's theological. If she wants creationism taught in the classroom (and she does), she is arguing against accepted science and believes in the former. The attempt to conflate the two is a political strategy for some.
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:47 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

The oil connections get thicker.
That's a particularly viscous attack.
posted by Floydd at 12:47 PM on August 29, 2008 [13 favorites]

I don't see a conflict between her claims of feminism and her participation in beauty pageants or pro-life behavior. There's nothing in feminism that directly forbids opportunism, to my knowledge.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:48 PM on August 29, 2008

Uhm, wtf is a PUMA, please?

ENOUGH
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:48 PM on August 29, 2008

What if she gets pregnant with #6 while in office?

This being a prime example of #2 above. If Biden--putting his foot in his mouth as he seems somewhat wont to do when speaking off-the-cuff (remember when he called Obama "articulate"?)--ever said something like this, I think it'd kill my vote. I hate to say that, because I hate McCain with heat of a thousand suns, but I absolutely, positively couldn't vote for a candidate who even suggested something like this.

And I'd bet dollars to donuts that I'm not the only female Democrat who feels this way. It'd only take one or two sexist gaffes to keep enough potential voters home to deliver toss-up states like Virginia.
posted by iminurmefi at 12:48 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

How would the stresses of such a job combine with a pregnancy? She's had babies while in office in Alaska, but how does that translate to the far bigger job of VP or POTUS?

Yeah! Or what if she got PMS? She could get hysterical!

But seriously, it doesn't seem like any more of an issue than Cheney's bum ticker or McCain's melanoma. This is what we have the 25th Amendment for.
posted by XMLicious at 12:49 PM on August 29, 2008

Women have been getting pregnant since the beginning of history, and the working world hasn't come to end

Yes, but they tend to take maternity leaves to do it. Does the office have a provision for that? What if there's a war on at the time?
posted by bink at 12:50 PM on August 29, 2008

Uhm, wtf is a PUMA, please?

"Party Unity, My Ass!" It refers to Hillary supporters who don't want to support Obama because they hold a grudge about how Hillary was treated.
posted by Class Goat at 12:51 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

bink, did you miss that she didn't take maternity leave for the last one?
posted by agregoli at 12:51 PM on August 29, 2008

Uhm, wtf is a PUMA, please?

ENOUGH

Is that an actual answer (some other acronym I'm ignorant of) or are you yelling at me for some reason? I briefly googled and came up with a sneaker and a wild cat.
posted by zarah at 12:52 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

Either way, the past two elections and their practical results have taught me that whatever the outcome, as a whole we pretty much get the president we earn and deserve.

If the vote hadn't been oursourced to private, for profit, Republican organizations, who view tallying MY VOTE as a "trade secret", I'd agree with you.

As it is, I think Gore won. And Kerry did too. (The putzes.)
posted by Critical_Beatdown at 12:52 PM on August 29, 2008

If Biden--putting his foot in his mouth as he seems somewhat wont to do when speaking off-the-cuff (remember when he called Obama "articulate"?)--ever said something like this, I think it'd kill my vote.

So never mind the billions of dollars Biden set aside for the Violence Against Women Act. He says something stupid off the cuff, that trumps his voting record, which is one of the most pro-women in the Congress?

Forgive me if that strikes me as a little short-sighted.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:53 PM on August 29, 2008 [20 favorites]

"Party Unity, My Ass!" It refers to Hillary supporters who don't want to support Obama because they hold a grudge about how Hillary was treated.

Oh, I see! Thank you Class Goat!
posted by zarah at 12:53 PM on August 29, 2008

Yes, but they tend to take maternity leaves to do it. Does the office have a provision for that? What if there's a war on at the time?

I wonder if elected officials are covered by the Familiy and Medical Leave Act? Anyone know?

Beyond that question, I find it funny that the same people who would yell themself blue about hating this woman would also yell at her for taking any leave. We think you're lousy at your job, and you better not take one day off, either!!!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:53 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

All this "what if she gets preggers?" talk sounds like some serious false flag bullshit to me.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:54 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

It takes a really strong, really forceful person to do what she has done and not only that, at the same time be a parent to five children. She is not only prolife but has a down's syndrome child in a time where many of these children are indeed aborted.

I think Konolia makes a good point here. Unless she has been extremely wealthy her whole life, this does denote a strong and strong-willed woman who may present a formidable opponent in the race. We would be unwise to underestimate her, in spite of her misguided beauty pageant forays.
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:54 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

If she & McCain promise to campaign in pelts for the rest of the election season, they will have my attention. Not my vote, just my attention.
posted by Wolfdog at 12:55 PM on August 29, 2008

Ta-daaa! VPILF.COM

Well, that was...fast...
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:55 PM on August 29, 2008

Is that an actual answer (some other acronym I'm ignorant of) or are you yelling at me for some reason?

Sorry about that, didn't mean to yell. There's been a lot of talk about these people here lately, and I'm all Swift Boated out.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:57 PM on August 29, 2008

Palin says she felt safe flying to Alaska to have baby
posted by SteveInMaine at 12:57 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

You realize your party regularly questions if Obama can be president because he is black and has a Muslim-sounding name, right?

Really? The Republican Party has said Obama can't be president because he's black? I'm well aware that some voters think that. Then again, some lefty voters believe some dumb things too.

You realize what a misguided question this is, right?

Someone implies that a women can't be president due to preggers. I point this out, and you say I'm the one who's misguided? Is that really a position you want to take?
posted by jsonic at 1:00 PM on August 29, 2008

For the record, I am in possession of a set of ovaries myself, and wouldn't vote for her in a million years. I'm just asking questions about something that could potentially take someone off a pretty significant job for a few months. There's no woman-hating motive here, I'm just curious about what would happen. What's wrong with wondering about these eventualities?
posted by bink at 1:01 PM on August 29, 2008

How is babby flown?
posted by orthogonality at 1:04 PM on August 29, 2008 [11 favorites]

bink, did you miss that she didn't take maternity leave for the last one?
I did miss that. That's exactly the kind of information I was wondering about. Thanks.
posted by bink at 1:04 PM on August 29, 2008

this would not be one of those gyms right next -- or inside -- evangelical church compounds, right?

No, it's owned by our local hospital. The three I spoke with were my male spin instructor (who went to a Benedictine college and originally told me he liked Hillary a few months ago), another instructor (married to a military guy) and a friend of mine, also an instructor, who is a casual mostly nonpracticing Catholic and fairly liberal type. That latter person liked Obama originally but was turned off by the brouhaha re his former pastor.
posted by konolia at 1:04 PM on August 29, 2008

Would you call this comment about how she played fast and loose with the safety of her unborn child, which unless I am TOTALLY mistaken was the one who we now know has Downs Syndrome, "misogynistic"? I call it one of the scariest things I have ever heard about a politician of either party.

(cross posted with in the MeTa callout thread)
posted by wendell at 1:05 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm probably late to posting this campaign portrait.
posted by empath at 1:06 PM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

You realize you are essentially questioning if a woman can be president or VP because she might get preggers, right?

You realize McCain voted against the Violence Against Women Act of 1994, right?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:06 PM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

I wonder if this was the ONLY incident of her risking the life of an unborn child with Downs. Sounds like a Republican Abortion attempt to me.
posted by wendell at 1:07 PM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

Nah, if pro-lifers want abortions they just go ahead and have them.
posted by Artw at 1:08 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Watching her speech, it's interesting to see how they're trying to snag the "Change" meme by going on about how she and McCain are "the best choice for change in Washington."

Also that she spends about 45 seconds talking very vaguely about how she fought some corruption once and then plays the McCain was a POW card.
posted by Shepherd at 1:09 PM on August 29, 2008

What did Sarah Palin do? She did NOT go to a local hospital and did NOT have her baby checked on a fetal monitor to make sure it was OK.

What a maverick.
posted by felix betachat at 1:11 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

You realize McCain voted against the Violence Against Women Act of 1994, right?

Is that the one that the Supreme Court found unconstitutional in United States v. Morrison?
posted by Perplexity at 1:12 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

It refers to an astroturf group purporting to be Hillary supporters who don't want to support Obama because they hold a grudge about how Hillary was treated.

FTFY
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:12 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

What if she gets pregnant with #6 while in office?

Bink raises a crucial issue.

WHO WOULD PRESIDE OVER PROCEDURAL MATTERS IN THE SENATE DURING HER BRIEF MATERNITY LEAVE????
(Assuming that the President pro tempore was also pregnant at the time.)
(And also all the junior senators who usually fill in for the President pro tempore to help them learn parliamentary procedure.)
(Also, every other senator.)

WHAT THEN, AMERICA?!?!? Won't someone think of the procedural matters?
posted by designbot at 1:13 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

Wow I just stepped out for a minute there and, uh, so what did I miss?
posted by From Bklyn at 1:13 PM on August 29, 2008

One thing a lot of staunch Democrats and staunch Republicans might be forgetting is that there are an awful lot of people out there who while they might be registered for a party are not necessarily folks interested in the party line. They vote for who they like, not necessarily to forward an agenda (anathema, I know, to any true Party partisan.)

So, what I want to know is, how do Joe and Sally Sixpack see a woman like her? THAT will tell you what you need to know re the coming election. Go sit in the Waffle House this weekend, order a cup of coffee, and just listen. Because those are the people who will give us our next administration.
posted by konolia at 1:13 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Paul Begala: "When you're 72 and you have had four bouts with cancer, you ought to choose a qualified VP."
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:14 PM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

Palin Pleased with Obama's Energy Plan ("This is Google's cache of http://www.gov.state.ak.us/news.php?id=1384. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on Aug 28, 2008 01:01:30 GMT. The current page could have changed in the meantime." Whaddaya know, it doesn't seem to be on her site any more.)
posted by kirkaracha at 1:14 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

This was a stupid stupid move by McCain. He's just laid waste to the only line of criticism against Obama that had any momentum.

Also, it reminds everyone that he's old. And not in a good way.
posted by bshort at 1:17 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I want to know why the hell McCain was fiddling with his wedding ring during her speech.

"His eyes hold Edith, his left hand holds his right.
What does that hand desire, that he grips it so tight ...?"

Joni Mitchell : "Edith and the Kingpin"
posted by essexjan at 1:17 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Is that the one that the Supreme Court found unconstitutional in United States v. Morrison?

Nope. The VAWA is still United States Law. Only the civil rights remedy of VAWA was struck down. Which you could have learned if you just clicked the link to the VAWA in the Wikipedia article you linked to, unless you were deliberately misrepresenting it.
posted by Astro Zombie at 1:19 PM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

Palin is quite obviously a wacky choice. But the qualities she does have as a pro-life, pro-oil, creationist female are pretty attractive to the Republican base right now, who still aren't convinced McCain is the man for the job. Sure she's under a cloud of scandal, but what Republican isn't, amirite?

Here is my theory:

Rumor has it that McCain wanted to pick Lieberman. This might have won him some "change" voters, but would have done very little to appease the Republican base.

I think that the heads of the Republican party forced Palin on McCain not because she was the best candidate to run against the Democrats, but because she's attractive to the right.

I think they're punting on this election altogether and guaranteeing that whatever happens, the Republican right won't be so pissed off at being marginalized in 2008 that they won't be there in 2012.
posted by crickets at 1:20 PM on August 29, 2008

Bring out your disenfranchised Clinton supporters! [CLANG]
Bring out your disenfranchised Clinton supporters! [CLANG]
Bring out your disenfranchised Clinton supporters! [CLANG]
...
posted by jim in austin at 1:20 PM on August 29, 2008 [10 favorites]

Woah, talk about some heat in here today.

All I know is that I think she should give Kim Campbell a call and maybe back out before it's too late.
posted by GuyZero at 1:21 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Someone implies that a women can't be president due to preggers. I point this out, and you say I'm the one who's misguided?

I also point out that the Republican Party has a long history of being against career-track mommies in general, at all levels of the workforce.

Aside from it being misguided for you to suggest that it is wrong to ask reasonable questions how Palin would handle her putative and significant vice-presidential responsibilities while bringing a child to term, it is also misguided, because the question sidesteps the long, misogynistic history of the party she is affiliated with.

At the very least, we should examine the misogynistic record of her presidential running mate, John McCain, who voted against the Violence Against Women Act, skipped on voting to provide equal pay to women (and is on record for stating he would have otherwise voted against providing equal pay to women, had he showed up), voted to gut the Family and Medical Leave Act, and has voted against providing reproductive healthcare and education to young American women. This is in addition to promising to do what he can to overturn reproduction choice laws.

You are misguided.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:22 PM on August 29, 2008 [11 favorites]

I'd just like to point out the Palin is not the governor of just any state, she is governor of Alaska. Why does is this important? Well, Alaska is bought and paid for by the oil companies. Oil money, subsidized with federal money, is what runs the state government - not income tax. A governor of Alaska doesn't have to worry about tax rates, balancing budgets or social spending - it's already dialed in.

Alaska, per capita, is one of the wealthiest states in the union.

Now compare this to other states, like, say, Ohio. Ohio is dealing with rampant unemployment, a mortgage crisis and yearly budget shortfalls funded by a declining tax-base. In Ohio, as in other states, the governor's office faces some real issues and has to show some real leadership.

Yes, she's a governor, but no, that doesn't amount to much "executive experience." If anything the Mayor of Dayton, Ohio has more executive experience - and if not, the Mayors of Chicago, New York, hell, even Cleveland do.

It's easy to dismiss criticisms of her lack of experience by claiming she's more experience than "Obama and Biden combined," but ultimately this is just empty rhetoric to back up a empty point.
posted by elwoodwiles at 1:23 PM on August 29, 2008 [37 favorites]

Astro Zombie, I really hate it when people do the "if X wins the primary, then I'm gonna vote for X's opponent, so THERE!" thing, so I recognize the frustration in your question, but... yeah. I don't particularly like to admit it, I don't think it's necessarily right (in the sense of optimizing my life), but I'm being honest because I think this is an essential component of the strategy that McCain is trying to use. Casual, off-the-cuff sexism bothers me a lot, and I would have a really hard time overcoming my gut dislike of someone who said something like that. Combine it with the general PITA it is to vote--you know, waking up early, standing in line for an hour or two, having to work late because you got in late--and I think it's possible that my personal disappointment and dislike of a particular candidate on a ticket would lead me to not vote.

I guess I'm not saying it to point out "la la la I'm a special snowflake, PANDER TO ME"--let's be honest, one vote has a vanishingly small probability of actually deciding the election, Florida in 2000 aside--but rather to explain why I think the choice of Palin was probably a really canny one on McCain's part. A lot of people on metafilter didn't really seem to grok why so many women were angry about Hillary's treatment during the primaries, and while respecting that people can have different views on whether a specific incident or phrase is sexist or not, I think it's counterproductive to pretend that the issue doesn't exist. I really, really hope that the Democratic party doesn't fall into the trap that I think McCain has set for them by having a sexist foot-in-mouth moment every couple of days between now and November. I am not, however, particularly hopeful on that point.
posted by iminurmefi at 1:23 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Is that the one that the Supreme Court found unconstitutional in United States v. Morrison?

You mean that one that was reauthorized in 2000 and again in 2005? Signed into law by Bush? Yeah, it was that one.

The Supreme Court ruling only ruled out the civil rights remedy, not the funding.

You know, you could, like, read the Wikipedia article.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 1:24 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

So, what I want to know is, how do Joe and Sally Sixpack see a woman like her? ... Because those are the people who will give us our next administration.

And if the election were held the same day McCain made the announcement, it might just turn the election. But if the Sixpacks bother to learn anything about Sarah beyond "Woman Governor with Maverick Image!" in the next two months, not so much.
posted by wendell at 1:24 PM on August 29, 2008

Am I the only one thinking he is going for Laura Roslin and the BSG vote?

I have never been more proud of Metafilter than I was when I read this comment. Word up, well_balanced. I came here to post the same thing.

*Waves BSG Flag*
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:28 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

George W. Bush had a lot more "executive experience" than Sarah Palin in a much bigger (in every way but land mass) and complex state. What does that prove?
posted by wendell at 1:28 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

So, what I want to know is, how do Joe and Sally Sixpack see a woman like her? THAT will tell you what you need to know re the coming election. Go sit in the Waffle House this weekend, order a cup of coffee, and just listen. Because those are the people who will give us our next administration.

My guess is that they will be laughing and shaking their heads. And voting for either Obama or Barr.
posted by billysumday at 1:29 PM on August 29, 2008

A lot of people on metafilter didn't really seem to grok why so many women were angry about Hillary's treatment during the primaries, and while respecting that people can have different views on whether a specific incident or phrase is sexist or not, I think it's counterproductive to pretend that the issue doesn't exist.

Any woman who was pro-Clinton and then decides to switch to McCain over this has pretty much earned her second-class citizenship.
posted by troybob at 1:29 PM on August 29, 2008 [11 favorites]

When I casually mentioned this lady as McCain's choice today (while at the gym) three out of three times I was told by each person I was speaking to that they were voting for McCain.

HOLY SHIT!

You found McCain voters in FAYETTEVILLE? Alert the news!

At 11: Rumors of Obama supporter in San Francisco.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:33 PM on August 29, 2008 [18 favorites]

Any woman who was pro-Clinton and then decides to switch to McCain over this has pretty much earned her second-class citizenship.

Classy.

In terms of people switching over to McCain after Hilary lost the primary, I say let them go. They aren't voting on any real issues, they aren't really involved in any process but their own, and more importantly, there aren't really that many of them.
posted by elwoodwiles at 1:34 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

You are misguided.

LOL. I think women deserve to be considered for president and VP, regardless of their potential for getting pregnant. How terribly misguided of me.
posted by jsonic at 1:35 PM on August 29, 2008

troybob, as I pointed out in my original comment, I think it's too simplistic to assume McCain is trying to win over pro-Clinton voters.

I think he's trying to get Obama's people (or hell, maybe just the media) to play the same game as in the primaries, which may have the effect of making pro-Clinton voters decide to just stay home.

(Also, that comment you made? About a woman who votes in a way you disagree with having "pretty much earned her second-class citizenship"? That's exactly the sort of shit that will create said backlash.)
posted by iminurmefi at 1:35 PM on August 29, 2008

You know, I think there's also a very good case to be made that this may motivate Hillary Clinton to work even harder to elect Barack Obama.

What the fuck is Hillary Clinton supposed to do at this point, exactly? I'm tired of the HILLARY MUST WORK HARDER TO ELECT OBAMA idiocy, online and off. Is she supposed to immolate herself on a giant damn float that says I LOVE SENATOR OBAMA while singing the Star Spangled Banner? Will that do it? Or will people carp that she should have written PRESIDENT Obama so that we all know she's rlly, rlly serious this time?
posted by winna at 1:37 PM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

"George W. Bush had a lot more "executive experience" than Sarah Palin in a much bigger (in every way but land mass) and complex state. What does that prove?"

nothing

a necessary criteria does not mean it is a sufficient criteria

you can argue experience is not a necessary factor for competency,
but I don't think anyone is arguing it is the only factor and thus guarantees success
posted by sloe at 1:37 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I agree that most mainline Christians don't take the Bible literally, but if you don't why bother calling yourself a Christian?

The Christians that don't take the the Bible as a literal record of fact are the same Christians who believe that God must be smart enough to use metaphors.
posted by infinitywaltz at 1:38 PM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

What the fuck is Hillary Clinton supposed to do at this point, exactly?

I'm pretty well convinced that no matter what she does or how hard she works, plenty of people will be ready to blame her first if Obama loses November. And that will be really annoying. It's Obama's campaign now.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:40 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

What the fuck is Hillary Clinton supposed to do at this point, exactly? I'm tired of the HILLARY MUST WORK HARDER TO ELECT OBAMA idiocy, online and off. Is she supposed to immolate herself on a giant damn float that says I LOVE SENATOR OBAMA while singing the Star Spangled Banner? Will that do it? Or will people carp that she should have written PRESIDENT Obama so that we all know she's rlly, rlly serious this time?

Well, it would certainly be better than standing in front of the classroom, shuffling her feet and stammering "I um support Barack Obama for president ok I'm going to go home now" like she basically did this week. I think the idea is that she cares more about her own ascension to presidency than her party or purported ideals winning.
posted by cellphone at 1:40 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think it's too simplistic to assume McCain is trying to win over pro-Clinton voters.

I didn't speak to McCain's motives at all.

About a woman who votes in a way you disagree with...

I didn't apply this to any woman who votes in a way I disagree with. Just those who would shift their vote to McCain 'over this' (e.g., for this reason).
posted by troybob at 1:41 PM on August 29, 2008

i.e., not e.g. ugh
posted by troybob at 1:42 PM on August 29, 2008

"(Also, that comment you made? About a woman who votes in a way you disagree with having "pretty much earned her second-class citizenship"? That's exactly the sort of shit that will create said backlash.)"

A woman who votes for a candidate who wants to make her a second-class citizen because of some perceived imperfection in the character of the candidates who are working to make her a fully-equal citizen pretty fucking much deserves to get what she voted for.
posted by klangklangston at 1:42 PM on August 29, 2008 [12 favorites]

Any woman who was pro-Clinton and then decides to switch to McCain over this has pretty much earned her second-class citizenship.

Youch! I'm suddenly feeling better about my comments in this thread.
posted by MikeMc at 1:45 PM on August 29, 2008

Um, one thing that has sort of struck me- apparently it's a big thing that she didn't terminate her last pregnancy after learning that the child would have Downs syndrome? Like, Republicans think this is a huge deal? I know at least two people who have done the same thing, people who were actually okay with abortion in general. I don't know ANYONE who, after planning to carry a pregnancy to term, changed their mind because of something like that; I'm not saying that it doesn't happen, but I've just never met anyone who has done that. I just think it's really bizarre that people think it's a crazy big deal that a person who doesn't believe in getting an abortion didn't get an abortion. Of course she didn't get an abortion, she was NEVER going to get an abortion, and the idea that people think it would be rare for this to happen generally makes me feel depressed about how people feel about people with learning disabilities in general.
posted by 235w103 at 1:46 PM on August 29, 2008 [10 favorites]

"I'm pretty well convinced that no matter what she does or how hard she works, plenty of people will be ready to blame her first if Obama loses November."

Which is a shame, because her speech (and her husband's speech, since he's often also labeled as a submariner) was pretty fantastic and hit exactly the right notes regarding appeals to HER base, which is more important than the broader coterie of folks who already support Obama.

"Well, it would certainly be better than standing in front of the classroom, shuffling her feet and stammering "I um support Barack Obama for president ok I'm going to go home now" like she basically did this week. I think the idea is that she cares more about her own ascension to presidency than her party or purported ideals winning."

Dude, that's totally bullshit given the speeches that she's made. She was enthusiastic, she was blunt, she was pretty damn brilliant in reaching HER audience, which is a significant subset of likely-Democratic voters. She did exactly what she was supposed to and exactly what she needed to do. I was about to complain to TPS that I thought the idea of her being less-than-gracious was something that was only being kept alive by idiots on CNN, who clearly came to her speech with their frames already hung, but c'mon.
posted by klangklangston at 1:47 PM on August 29, 2008 [9 favorites]

A woman who votes for a candidate who wants to make her a second-class citizen because of some perceived imperfection in the character of the candidates who are working to make her a fully-equal citizen pretty fucking much deserves to get what she voted for.

Either that OR your claim that the Republicans and McCain want to make women second-class citizens is just blowhard partisan rhetoric.
posted by jsonic at 1:48 PM on August 29, 2008

Well, it would certainly be better than standing in front of the classroom, shuffling her feet and stammering "I um support Barack Obama for president ok I'm going to go home now" like she basically did this week.

Oh, come on. Her speech was great.

But I do agree with the pink superhero: this is Obama's campaign now - if he loses it isn't Hilary's fault, but his own.
posted by elwoodwiles at 1:48 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

It's nice that she didn't abort her pregnancy even after finding out the fetus had Down's Syndrome. Good for her, happy happy.

You know what's even nicer? That she CHOSE not to abort. That not aborting wasn't simply mandated. Anyone who thinks that anti-abortion leanings give you the right to get all up in others' vaginas needs an attitude adjustment.
posted by Dipsomaniac at 1:49 PM on August 29, 2008 [22 favorites]

Newsweek writes that Palin “felt kind of bad she couldn’t support a woman, but she didn’t like Clinton’s ‘whining.’”^*
posted by ericb at 1:49 PM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

So, what I want to know is, how do Joe and Sally Sixpack see a woman like her?

I participate in an online group which is pretty much the polar opposite of this one politically - it's a group for mothers in Charlotte, NC. There are a few of us token lib'ruls, but most of the membership is cheerily conservative, with Bible verses or quotes like "Only two forces ever agreed to die for you: Jesus Christ and the American Soldier" in their signature lines.

They're already saying that Palin is "more experienced" than Obama, because it's executive experience, or something. They like her because she's pro-life, and a mother, and didn't abort her Down Syndrome baby, and that's enough to make them ignore any possible questions about her qualifications.

I'm not feeling very optimistic about North Carolina turning blue this year.
posted by Daily Alice at 1:49 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

"Either that OR your claim that the Republicans and McCain want to make women second-class citizens is just blowhard partisan rhetoric."

Well, since it's not (based on the legislative, judicial and executive priorities and actions of the party), I'll take it that you agree with me.
posted by klangklangston at 1:50 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

jsonic: "Either that OR your claim that the Republicans and McCain want to make women second-class citizens is just blowhard partisan rhetoric."

McCain wants to remove from women a right that nobody would ever propose taking from men. Sounds like a second-class strategy to me.
posted by Dipsomaniac at 1:50 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Scandal-Plagued Ted Stevens Endorses Palin For VP, Says He’s ‘Known And Worked’ With Her ‘For Over A Decade’
posted by ericb at 1:50 PM on August 29, 2008

Palin denies global warming is man-made and is a "champion for Big Oil."
posted by ericb at 1:52 PM on August 29, 2008

I was curious who's behind VPILF. I guess I was hoping it wouldn't be an Obama supporter. Alas, no such luck.

Two clues from the top of the page:

1) masthead URL: http://web.me.com/dnksr/vpilf.com/[...]

2) "Brought to you by the same people who gave you: TheMovieSpoiler.com"

Alexa info for TheMovieSpoiler.com:

Kaiser, Dan
6111 97th Ave Ct W
Tacoma, WA
98467
US
Phone: +1 253 565 XXXX
dnksr [at] mac.com

note: web.me.com and mac.com are apple services that host user content. So dnksr@mac.com and web.me.com/dnksr/ are likely the same person.

...and a cached news article from the Tacoma News Tribune hints at Mr. Kaiser's political affiliation:

The stories behind the customized vanity license plates
IAN DEMSKY; ian.demsky@thenewstribune.com; 235-597-8872
Published: February 27th, 2008 01:00 AM
[...]
Dan Kaiser of University Place didn’t fare as well. State officials revoked his plate joking about President Bush. It read “F DUBYA.”

Congrats, Dan Kaiser, you're a dick.
posted by ryanrs at 1:55 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Well, since it's not (based on the legislative, judicial and executive priorities and actions of the party)

Based on your interpretation of their positions. Many people of both sexes don't agree with your framing.
posted by jsonic at 1:55 PM on August 29, 2008

@ijoshua:
It's pronounced "pale-in".

As in "McCain's VP choice will pale in comparison with Obama's."
posted by AngerBoy at 1:56 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

It seems to me that the pick is at least partly based on two misconceptions:

1. I've seen some Republicans attribute their losses in the 2006 midterms to voters being fed up with corruption, so Palin's whistleblowing was probably a plus for her. I'm not convinced that corruption was all that important an issue in 2006, and it's not a major issue this year.

2. It drastically overestimates the number of "Hillary voters." If there's really this block of 18 million pissed-off Hillary supporters, why haven't they each chipped in $2 and retired her campaign debt?

This was a smart pick today because it took attention off Obama's great speech last night, but picking an underqualified unknown (even to McCain: Palin Recently Said She Had Met McCain Only a Few Times) demonstrates poor judgment. If he wanted to pick someone else and was pressured into picking her, that demonstrates an inability to command.

The vice president should be qualified to step in as president from Day One. Biden is, Palin isn't. Picking Palin will only affect McCain's chances of winning the election; there's no indication she'll be able to help run the country. Obama's pick of Biden shows better judgement: Biden would be an asset in governing the country, and could help Obama's chances in the election.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:57 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

"Based on your interpretation of their positions. Many people of both sexes don't agree with your framing."

Many people of both sexes believe that the earth wasn't formed roughly 4.5 billion years ago. As with your example, those people are wrong. Show me someone who believes that GOP policies are better for women and I'll show you a fool or a liar.
posted by klangklangston at 1:58 PM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

McCain wants to remove from women a right that nobody would ever propose taking from men. Sounds like a second-class strategy to me.

Oh, so being against the killing of unborn life means McCain is anti-women. I guess that makes those who support the killing of unborn life anti-everybody.
posted by jsonic at 1:59 PM on August 29, 2008

Based on your interpretation of their positions

Based more on roll calls for Senate legislation, and actual policy, you mean.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 1:59 PM on August 29, 2008

Scandal-Plagued Ted Stevens Endorses Palin For VP

Oooohhhh, that's gotta hurt. Stevens probably hates her and is trying to take her down with him.
posted by MikeMc at 1:59 PM on August 29, 2008

Her primary four qualities, from McCain's perspective: 1) she's anti-choice/pro-life; 2) she's a she; 3) there isn't any video footage of her dissing McCain, as there is for just about every other person in this country that anyone's ever heard of; and 4) she's kinda hawt (although he won't admit this one, of course).

The big downside is that she completely eviscerates McCain's "experience is important" message, which is really the only message he had that was working at all among voters who aren't already pinned to the Republican Party because of social issues like keeping gays from getting married and keeping women from access to safe abortions.

I'm not objective here, but that one big downside seems to me to outweigh all the positives combined, because that leaves McCain with a whole lotta nothing to work with.
posted by jamstigator at 2:01 PM on August 29, 2008

Based on your interpretation of their positions. Many people of both sexes don't agree with your framing

Voted against a law protecting women from violence. Voted against making certain women got equal pay. Has consistently voted antichoice.

I'm sorry, this is not merely an issue of framing. This sort of voting really does relegate someone to a second-class status. Not everything is just a matter of opinion.
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:02 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

Maria Bartiromo Talks With Sarah Palin
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 2:02 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh, so being against the killing of unborn life means McCain is anti-women.

McCain voting against the Violence Against Women Act is anti-women. McCain voting against equal pay for women is anti-women. McCain voting against family leave is anti-women. McCain voting against reproductive healthcare and education is anti-women.

McCain being against reproductive choice is just the nail in the coffin.

Your continued, conscious decision to ignore McCain's voting record on all of these issues as they concern women is also anti-women.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:03 PM on August 29, 2008 [41 favorites]

For the record, Fayetteville is filled with Democrats.
posted by konolia at 2:03 PM on August 29, 2008

Who cares if she's a woman, who cares if she's experienced. That's not what the election is about. If the Dems spend all their time trying to show why she's not a good VP pick, they're focusing on the wrong things. Obama's speech last night was about moving forward, and not letting these little things distract us. There are much bigger issues then anything represented in the Palin pick.
posted by cell divide at 2:04 PM on August 29, 2008 [14 favorites]

jsonic, you move those goalposts just 10% faster and I'm pretty sure you'll start travelling in time.
posted by Shepherd at 2:04 PM on August 29, 2008 [11 favorites]

"I'm sorry, this is not merely an issue of framing. This sort of voting really does relegate someone to a second-class status. Not everything is just a matter of opinion."

If I recall correctly, jsonic's also the guy who freaked out and got all belligerent because some woman said that she'd kick a guy in the balls if he asked to grope her breasts, so jsonic might not have the best grasp of gender equality.
posted by klangklangston at 2:04 PM on August 29, 2008 [6 favorites]

Oh, so being against the killing of unborn life means McCain is anti-women.

Yes.
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:04 PM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

From this, just posted: Maria Bartiromo Talks With Sarah Palin:

"Q: How important is drilling in Alaska to ease the burden of high oil prices on Americans?

A: Not only to ease the high prices of energy in America but also for national security reasons. Drilling in Alaska is going to be a matter of life and death. Up here in Alaska, we're bursting with billions of barrels of oil that are warehoused underground. We have to pump [this oil] and feed our hungry markets instead of relying on the foreign sources of energy. "

LOL.
posted by Perplexity at 2:06 PM on August 29, 2008

cell divide for the win.

I'm outta here.
posted by elwoodwiles at 2:10 PM on August 29, 2008

jamstigator: The big downside is that she completely eviscerates McCain's 'experience is important' message,

Totally. One of McCain's assertions was that someone who hasn't been to Iraq, and been there recently, can have no grasp of the proper way to handle the situation there. Well looky who that's applying to now.

I'm not objective here, but that one big downside seems to me to outweigh all the positives combined,

Exact-a-mundo, I agree with you 100%. As an Obama supporter I am very pleased with McCain's choice.
posted by XMLicious at 2:11 PM on August 29, 2008

Oooohhhh, that's gotta hurt. Stevens probably hates her and is trying to take her down with him.

"In 2006, Sen. Ted Stevens endorsed Palin.

Last month, after Stevens was indicted, Palin refused to call for his resignation, saying that he had 'dedicated his life to the betterment of the state.' She had previously called for another indicted lawmaker to resign."^*

And she touts herself as a reformer and corruption fighter.
posted by ericb at 2:11 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Incidentally, I'd love to see a woman elected to either the prez or VP office. (I'm a white male.) When I was in the Army and overseas, I'd get my local ballots. This was before the internet though, so I knew none of the people on the ballots or what they stood for, nothing. Yet I did not want my vote to not count for *anything*, so I looked for all the Democrat females and voted for all of them, wherever there was one. Where there was no woman running, I picked the Democrat. So I blindly voted Democrat-but-weighted-toward-women, so that at least my vote would have some purpose behind it, addressing the one inequality in our society that I could identify solely based on the names of the candidates.

Since that young age, I've always wanted to see a woman elected to our highest offices. But it has to be the right woman, at least for me. Just any woman won't do, because it'll be a historic precedent when it happens, and you don't want the first woman to accomplish the feat to make it harder for the women of the future by being anything less than competent. This particular woman isn't the one. I was fine with Hillary, would in fact have preferred her to Obama, but life goes on, she was the loser, and I'm still a Democrat, so Obama it is.

Maybe this is McCain's way of saying, 'If you vote for two *dudes* then you're a fag, so vote for me and the hot chick and no one will think that." Sadly, that might even work in some parts of rural Bubbaville.
posted by jamstigator at 2:12 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Voted against a law protecting women from violence.

Did he possibly think there are already laws against abusing people? Remember, just because a bill has a positive sounding name, like the "Patriot Act", does not make voting against it wrong.

McCain voting against equal pay for women is anti-women

Or maybe he thinks it's not a politician's job to determine wages through law.

McCain voting against family leave is anti-women

Or maybe he thinks it's not a politican's job to specify employment contracts between an individual and a company.

McCain being against reproductive choice is just the nail in the coffin

Or maybe he wants to stop people from killing unborn life.
posted by jsonic at 2:14 PM on August 29, 2008

What is McCain Thinking? One Alaskan’s Perspective. (Includes a panoramic photo of downtown Wasilla, Alaska.)
posted by kirkaracha at 2:15 PM on August 29, 2008 [6 favorites]

I think sour cream is clairivoyant.

What will your role be at the upcoming convention?
I'm doing a pro-life speech. Four months ago, my fifth child was born with Down syndrome…so I value innocent life. It took many months for me to get my arms around the idea of, first, having a fifth child at my age, but also knowing that my child would have an extra chromosome. But I prayed the whole time, "God, just prepare me, prepare my heart and prepare my family." And talk about confirmation of that prayer, I mean, Trig is just—he is to me—absolutely perfect. And everybody's in love with him, and he's the sweetest little baby in the world.
posted by designbot at 2:15 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

"Maybe this is McCain's way of saying, 'If you vote for two *dudes* then you're a fag, so vote for me and the hot chick and no one will think that.""

If I hadn't blown my irony vote in 2000, I would vote for McCain with that slogan. Even better if he phrased it "Vote 4 2 dudez=UR fag."

I can just see Wolf Blitzer seriously contemplating whether that would win him the 4chan vote.
posted by klangklangston at 2:15 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

jsonic: "Oh, so being against the killing of unborn life means McCain is anti-women. I guess that makes those who support the killing of unborn life anti-everybody."

I guess you're just being a dick, right? Because that's not what I wrote. What I said was that if anyone proposed a law that forced men to be a life-support system against their will, they'd be laughed at.

But, yes. Wanting the US Constitution to be amended to specifically take away women's rights based on the condition of their uterus IS anti-woman, REGARDLESS of the 'flaw' that you think needs correcting.
posted by Dipsomaniac at 2:15 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

This could all be very horrible.
posted by Artw at 2:16 PM on August 29, 2008

Interpret them as you will, jsonic; nonetheless, those votes had a cumulative effect of rekegating women to a second-class position in society. I don't care what logic goes into making decisions that are bad for people. They're still decisions that are bad for people.
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:17 PM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

Jsonic: Lot of maybes there, and the problem is that all of those things could be true and it would still add up to a net effect of making women second-class citizens. Frankly, I don't care if he votes against those bills because his pagan idol Yojo tells him to—it still adds up to being against the interests of women.
posted by klangklangston at 2:18 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

relegating
posted by Astro Zombie at 2:18 PM on August 29, 2008

This choice makes me think a couple of things:

-- McCain has given up on the "experience" attacks - probably his polling shows it was getting traction, probably also he waited to see Bill Clinton's strong support of Obama and also was influenced by the choice of Biden. In this sense, the choice is a huge win for Obama because it means they forced a sub-optimal choice onto McCain, a choice that seems entirely about "solidifying the base", almost none of whom would vote meaning I think McCain will now try to move to the centre which will expose him mightily form both sides - he loses points for judgment from some, will lose policy support from others, and may only make marginal gains in the centre.

-- The Republicans fear Obama's rhetorical skills such that they needed a nuclear bomb of publicity to try to nullify his acceptance speech which even had hard core Republican commentators wetting their pants, and quite likely would have been the most attention many voters & the media would have paid to Obama until the debates. So -- a short term choice designed for short term tactica reasons, not strategic ones within the context of the election as a whole, and one that reveals a deep, abiding Republican fear of Obama's ability to inspire.
posted by Rumple at 2:19 PM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

What is McCain Thinking? One Alaskan’s Perspective.

And prominent in that photo of downtown Wasilla is the 'Mugshot Saloon.' How very appropriate.
posted by ericb at 2:19 PM on August 29, 2008

If I recall correctly, jsonic's also the guy who freaked out and got all belligerent because some woman said that she'd kick a guy in the balls if he asked to grope her breasts, so jsonic might not have the best grasp of gender equality.

LOL. You think violence is ok if someone offends you. But only if you're a girl. Wonderful 'gender equality' you support there.
posted by jsonic at 2:20 PM on August 29, 2008

Arguably, the greatest tragedy of Palin's fifth child is that name she saddled the poor guy with. Like, he's already got enough to deal with—he doesn't need people assuming that his parents are yuppie assholes too.
posted by klangklangston at 2:20 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

I can't believe it took hundreds of comments for someone (235w103 and Dipsomaniac) to question the idea of Palin's choice to have her youngest son as some sort of paragon of her militant anti-choice ideals. It's completely irrelevant to questions of reproductive rights. She's one person, whose right it was to choose, and she made her choice, and anything beyond that is none of our business. And that's how choice works.

I mean, I see how it would matter to pro-life voters who get wrapped up in the issue emotionally and it warms their little hearts. But it doesn't really mean anything, legally. Like I've said here before, pro-life women have babies sometimes and also abortions sometimes. So do pro-choice women. It's got nothing to do with other women's pregnancies.

I've been perplexed about this all day, and I've been trying to find something on the internet that answers my totally honest question: Has Sarah Palin ever done anything pro-life/anti-choice? Everywhere I've looked has shown concrete examples of her position on gay rights, energy, the environment, etc.--you know, things like signing and vetoing laws, rescinding appointments, selling jets, and so on. On abortion, it's "she is pro-life" and nothing more. So far, it looks like her pro-life creds are:

1. Saying she's pro-life; other people saying she's pro-life.
2. Being a member of FFL.
3. Bearing children.

Those aren't really executive actions. It's not that I doubt that she's anti-choice. I'm sure she is; it's not like I've seen evidence to the contrary. But I can't help feel like I'm missing something. Am I? Seriously, I want to know.
posted by lampoil at 2:23 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

I'm thinking they going to make the race ENTIRELY about abortion. They have nothing else, bar experience (busted) and Obama being a sekret muslim (never overtly stated, getting a bit tired).

And if they win they will be in a position to do something about it.

I think they have a pretty good shot.
posted by Artw at 2:23 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I guess that makes those who support the killing of unborn life anti-everybody.

Also, who supports the "killing" of "unborn life"? Removing your scientifically unsound terms here, people who are pro-choice aren't marching around crowing about how friggin' awesome abortions are. I'd suggest reading up on what pro-choice means before digging an even deeper hole.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:25 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

What the fuck is Hillary Clinton supposed to do at this point, exactly? I'm tired of the HILLARY MUST WORK HARDER TO ELECT OBAMA idiocy, online and off. Is she supposed to immolate herself on a giant damn float that says I LOVE SENATOR OBAMA while singing the Star Spangled Banner? Will that do it? Or will people carp that she should have written PRESIDENT Obama so that we all know she's rlly, rlly serious this time?

This is not an issue of "Clinton should be sucking up to her new lord and master Obama." If she cares about her party at all, it makes sense for her to address her voters who might now abandon her party and her ideals.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:25 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

**To all those who say "talking about her derisively for being in a beauty pagent isn't sexist!!", I'd urge you to read onlyconnect's comment, which hits the nail on the head. You don't have to agree with her analysis, but if you weren't someone who thought that Hillary faced a lot of sexist bullshit in the primaries, you're not really the target of this anyway.

I did read it, I do think Hillary faced a lot of sexist bullshit in the primaries, and I still disprove strongly of her for being in a beauty pageant.

Beauty pageants are the antithesis of everything I stand for as a feminist, and I do. not. want. people who participate in their bullshit to represent me as a woman, and as a human being.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 2:26 PM on August 29, 2008 [12 favorites]

From the Mudflats ("Tiptoeing Through the Muck of Alaskan Politics") blog (to which kirkaracha links):

“Before her meteoric rise to political success as governor, just two short years ago Sarah Palin was the mayor of Wasilla. I had a good chuckle at MSN.com’s claim that she had been the mayor of ‘Wasilla City’. It is not a city. Just Wasilla. Wasilla is the heart of the Alaska ‘Bible belt’ and Sarah was raised amongst the tribe that believes creationism should be taught in our public schools, homosexuality is a sin, and life begins at conception. She’s a gun-toting, hang ‘em high conservative. Remember…this is where her approval ratings come from. There is no doubt that McCain again is making a strategic choice to appeal to a particular demographic - fundamentalist right-wing gun-owning Christians. And Republican bloggers are already gushing about how she has ‘more executive experience’ than Obama does! Above is a picture of lovely downtown Wasilla, for those of you unfamiliar with the area. Behind the Mug-Shot Saloon (the first bar I visited when I moved to Alaska long ago) is a little strip mall. There are street signs in Wasilla with bullet holes in them. Wasilla has a population of about 5500 people, and 1979 occupied housing units. This is where your potential Vice President was two short years ago. Can you imagine her negotiating a nuclear non-proliferation treaty? Discussing foreign policy? Understanding non-Alaskan issues? Frankly, I don’t even know if she’s ever been out of the country. She may ‘get’ Alaska, but there are only a half a million people here. Don’t get me wrong….I love Alaska with all my heart. I’m just saying.”

posted by ericb at 2:26 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

"relegating"

You were first because you misspelled!

"LOL. You think violence is ok if someone offends you. But only if you're a girl. Wonderful 'gender equality' you support there."

Yeah, y'know how your first comment in that thread was so out-of-line that it got deleted, and how you spent, like, 30 more comments getting all apoplectic without understanding anything of the underlying issue? It makes your defender-of-women act here seem pretty hollow.
posted by klangklangston at 2:29 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

plenty of people will be ready to blame her first if Obama loses November. And that will be really annoying. It's Obama's campaign now.

why, of course. Hillary only wrote the script for the GOP's strategy against Obama, covered him in racist filth ("hardworking Americans, white Americans") allowing the McCain camp to step back and simply watch, letting her test the limits of you can and can not say against a black candidate (see Ferraro's statement, Bill's outburst) and take the heat for it. she wrote the plan, she's a star in the GOP's ads, she got herself an ovation earlier today during Palin's speech, but you're right, you're not running. there will be time to figure out who lost this thing that was almost impossible to lose given Bush's numbers and Congressional races polls and McCain's own long list of problems. there will be time, about three years exactly.

then, Sen. Clinton will be more than welcome to run again in the Democratic primaries in 2012 and try to unseat McCain/Palin. she's not exactly a shoo-in for the 2012 nomination either, because some of the bad mojo from 2008 may indeed get stuck on her, too, but we'll see. me, I'd advise the Democrats to run a non-liberal guy from the South next time, though.

"Either that OR your claim that the Republicans and McCain want to make women second-class citizens is just blowhard partisan rhetoric."

no, that's the gays -- they're the ones who thanks to the GOP can't marry like straight people can, because their love is filthy and immoral and abnormal and can not be sanctioned by the government. women, in the GOP's own platform, are the ones who can't decide what happens once they get pregnant -- Antonin Scalia decides for them.
posted by matteo at 2:31 PM on August 29, 2008 [15 favorites]

And matteo nails it.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:34 PM on August 29, 2008

A woman who votes for a candidate who wants to make her a second-class citizen because of some perceived imperfection in the character of the candidates who are working to make her a fully-equal citizen pretty fucking much deserves to get what she voted for.

Well, I guess by your reasoning, women are pretty much just fucked either way, then, since my original hypothetical was about not voting for someone who made a comment implying that women weren't suitable for holding the office of the Presidency solely by virtue of the fact that they have functioning reproductive organs--which, hello, I'd call a pretty strong statement about women being second-class citizens. I'm not talking about some random, unimportant "inperfection" in the character of the candidates like being a furry; I'm speaking specifically about what might happen if one of them starts spewing out sexist crap as talking points against Palin. (I guess you could believe that one's policies and one's beliefs are totally separate, but I have a hard time buying that.)

If you're making the argument that women deserve to be second-class citizens because they fail to vote for the candidate who is less bad on the issue (and honestly, anyone who thinks that Biden is some sort of paragon of pro-choice pro-woman policies has not investigated his record closely enough--he's worlds better than McCain, but certainly has some bad positions on reproductive rights, and VAWA doesn't just erase that), that's a different argument. I tend to believe that no woman "deserves" to be a second-class citizen, but I'm also one of the killjoys who hates rape jokes about Ann Coulter, so what the hell do I know.
posted by iminurmefi at 2:35 PM on August 29, 2008

Y'know, I realize it's silly, but by now I just want the Dems to win so that matteo will shut up for ten minutes (before attacking Obama for not being socialist enough). How's Berlusconi treatin' you?
posted by klangklangston at 2:37 PM on August 29, 2008

600th.
posted by Zambrano at 2:37 PM on August 29, 2008

Remember, Obama is a poker player - and I think he just put McCain all-in on a weak flop. Could pay, but it's a bad bet.
posted by nicwolff at 2:39 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

If someone actively sells out not only their rights, but the rights of others, they don't necessarily deserve the bad things that will happen. But they shouldn't expect the rest of us to be throwing them a freaking pity party anytime soon, either.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 2:42 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

"All eyes turned to the masked rider, who then removed the helmet and *gasp* revealed herself to be a woman, with long hair spilling down about her shoulders."

Just shows your political naivety. You've never heard of "helmet head", have you.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 2:43 PM on August 29, 2008

The repugnant VPILF site has posts dating back to last week, which is interesting (is it a new domain with back dated posts?).

I think this selection is also de facto acknowledgment that the PUMAs are a republican trojan horse with Palin meant to hoover up their support.
posted by Rumple at 2:44 PM on August 29, 2008

"(I guess you could believe that one's policies and one's beliefs are totally separate, but I have a hard time buying that.)"

In some sense, yes. Like I said upthread, it doesn't matter why McCain votes against the interests of women, just that he does. They're not totally separate, but I care much more about the policies than the beliefs that inform them. Given the choice between "says sexist crap+votes for women's rights" and "says sexist crap+votes against women's rights," I'd think the choice would still be clear, that the interest of a woman would be best served by someone who says sexist crap but votes in their interest. The ideal would be someone who doesn't say sexist crap and also votes in women's interests, but given the choice between two less-than-ideal candidates, an adult that votes against her interests does deserve to have a government that works against her interests.
posted by klangklangston at 2:44 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

You can see an inversion of that when you think about the rural poor—Republicans claim to work in their interest and say the right things, but vote against programs that would help them. Rural poor who vote for Republicans get what they deserve, broadly stated. The folks that get screwed are the ones who voted against those folks and lost.
posted by klangklangston at 2:46 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Go sit in the Waffle House this weekend, order a cup of coffee, and just listen. Because those are the people who will give us our next administration.

You heard it here first, folks. The programmers at Premier(Diebold) love Waffle House.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 2:46 PM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

But I also have very little but contempt for undecided voters, so I recognize that Dean won't be putting me on the phone banks anytime soon.
posted by klangklangston at 2:47 PM on August 29, 2008

Republican bloggers are already gushing about how she has ‘more executive experience’ than Obama does!

Wouldn't that mean she has more "executive experience" than McCain as well? Seems like a bad point to focus on.
posted by MikeMc at 2:49 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Artw nailed it. This announcement is, above all, a signal that McCain's campaign is going to make abortion the signature wedge issue from here on out. Sarah Palin's speech at the convention is going to have the pro-life church-going moms in tears.

"Sarah Palin thinks that babies are a precious gift from God, while Barack Obama wants to abort them alive and toss them in soiled utility baskets." I guarantee the e-mails are being frantically forwarded as we speak.
posted by designbot at 2:49 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

For the record, Fayetteville is filled with Democrats.

I don't doubt it. Democrats that keep voting for Republicans for President, like you find all over the south.

I mean, look. Cumberland County went just slightly for Bush in 04... but Cumberland County is also about 40% black.

If you really want I can try to dig up GIS data for election precincts in Cumberland County and cross-reference them with Census demographics and then with votes by precinct, but come on. White people in Cumberland County were almost certainly voting for Bush by three to one or more.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:52 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

FIRST!

oh, wait...damn.
posted by Muddler at 2:53 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

>> You know, I think there's also a very good case to be made that this may motivate Hillary Clinton to work even harder to elect Barack Obama.

> What the fuck is Hillary Clinton supposed to do at this point, exactly? I'm tired of the HILLARY MUST WORK HARDER TO ELECT OBAMA idiocy, online and off.

I think you're looking at it bass ackwards: suddenly, the ante's been raised for Sen. Clinton. It's an opportunity, rather than an onerous burden -- especially if she still has her sights set on 2012/2016, governorship, whatever. The media, freshly consumed with the "what will Hillary's supporters do?" hype all over again, will be hanging on Sen. Clinton's every word on the stump now with Palin on the scene. Sen. Clinton is now, in every way, the Anti-Palin:

fought a long, bruising campaign whereas Palin was a last-minute secret pick;
earned every vote of her support from the primaries, whereas Palin was handed her spot on the ticket;
is the older, experienced politician who ran on her merits working her way up from lawyer, decades as a political wife, a U.S. state emissary as First Lady, two terms as U.S. Senator of a huge and enormously important state, and now has undisputed clout within her party, unmatched name recognition across the entire voting public, and significant independent appeal, whereas Palin's career is one of beauty pageant contestant, fisherman, sports reporter, four years on small-town city council, four years as small-town mayor, then less than two years apiece on the state Oil commission and Governor's office in a state with less population than most major U.S. cities;
well-known for her commanding grasp of policy and delivered a major human rights speech in China whereas Palin has neither national nor international exposure;
and ultimately, as someone who few would question in a national executive role at this point whereas few in either party have anywhere near the same confidence in a potential President Palin;

and so on. Even without getting into the sexist notion of the younger woman being handed her position due to her attractiveness (and I scoff at any commentator who suggests with a straight face that Palin's resume and qualifications were more instrumental to her selection than the demographic appeal stemming largely from her age, gender, and photogenic appearance): Palin provides an absolute gold mine of contrasts for Clinton and her supporters, the proverbial silver lining in this whole campaign season. Regardless of which future position Sen. Clinton is angling for at this point (even if she hasn't decided), her speeches and attacks against the McCain/Palin ticket will suddenly matter in a whole new way, she can make those hits nobody else can without being labeled a bully or a sexist, and best of all she no longer has to play defense at all (which has always been the worst Clinton liability) -- it's all freebie opportunities to grow her political stature and increase her exposure in the media spotlight without any of the fratricidal concerns that she kept bumping into during the primaries. I can't imagine a better opportunity for her at this point to really flex her political muscles.

Just like that, the Obama/Biden campaign has suddenly become relevant again for Sen. Clinton. The press is going to be waiting to hear everything she has to say, and she's savvy enough to know it. I fully expect her to be working extra hard to elect Obama now -- because win or lose, she's going to reap those rewards. Other than Obama and Biden themselves, at this point no other Democrat stands to gain so much from this election.

Palin recycled Sen. Clinton's "18 million cracks" phrase in her speech today -- there's no way Sen. Clinton's going to let Palin try to co-opt her legacy from the primaries so easily like that. No way, no how, and Sen. Clinton's supporters know how this saying ends.
posted by DaShiv at 2:54 PM on August 29, 2008 [71 favorites]

I for one fully support the killing of unborn life. For the same reason I support the killing of undead zombies and vampires. Because the whole concept is an oxymoron based on fantasy and I am generally Reality-Based.
posted by wendell at 2:54 PM on August 29, 2008 [10 favorites]

Soiled utility baskets. The very worst kind.
posted by fleetmouse at 2:56 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

God, I hope that Clinton comes out swinging like that. I think, freed of some of the dumber elements from her campaign staff and the necessities of infrastructure, she could be an awesome hammer of rhetorical justice.
posted by klangklangston at 2:59 PM on August 29, 2008

ROU_Xenophobe, don't bother. My husband probably knows the stats by heart.

But also remember these folks here vote for the person, not the party, and I also know Obama had a big turnout when he was here.

Also remember that McCain is considered as fairly liberal by folks here, and that Obama is, well, Obama. The guy is incredibly charismatic. If it weren't for the topic of abortion I'd be tempted to drink the kool-aid.
posted by konolia at 3:02 PM on August 29, 2008

The ideal would be someone who doesn't say sexist crap and also votes in women's interests, but given the choice between two less-than-ideal candidates, an adult that votes against her interests does deserve to have a government that works against her interests.

There's a part of me that just really chokes on the "deserving it" rhetoric, but that's probably a holdover from my hate of how it's used against women in other situations. Setting aside my knee-jerk reaction to that particular phrasing, I don't disagree with you at all that it's in women's best interest to vote Obama/Biden. I don't think anyone who really calls themselves pro-womens-rights would disagree with that point. (Although I have to point out that I think in some ways it's easier to be a guy--no offense klang--and say, "Well of course you should vote Dem, no matter what offensive thing they say," because I don't think it really hits you in the gut the same way it does for some women. It's not the same sort of personal insult.)

I'm trying to draw a distinction, I guess, between what is rationally in people's best interest and how they are likely to act in that situation, and how the Democratic ticket should take that into account when deciding on their strategy for attacking McCain/Palin. I think a lot of Obama supporters are really misguided with the belief that because McCain is worse than Obama on women's rights, Palin doesn't represent some threat electorally. He doesn't have to convince women to vote for him, just to stay home--it's like the Nader argument of, well, both parties are so bad it's pointless to vote for either. In a close state, low turnout among women, who are much more likely to support Democrats, could be a deciding factor in tipping the state red. There are things that Obama and Biden can do to counteract this--number 1 being aware of it and not falling into the trap of (inadvertently) insulting women while trying to tear down Palin, and number 2 speaking out against anything like that when it comes up in the media or through their surrogates/supporters.
posted by iminurmefi at 3:03 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I can just see Wolf Blitzer seriously contemplating whether that would win him the 4chan vote

Needs more Desu.
posted by MikeMc at 3:03 PM on August 29, 2008

they will have a vote, someone will win, yet again i will realise that mefites are all rabid democrats and not a representative cross setion of us society - so i wont get my hopes up.
posted by sgt.serenity at 3:04 PM on August 29, 2008

I just think it's really bizarre that people think it's a crazy big deal that a person who doesn't believe in getting an abortion didn't get an abortion. Of course she didn't get an abortion, she was NEVER going to get an abortion

Depends on how she found out.

I've known women who would tell you that there's no reason to get specifically screened for Downs unless you're at least thinking of abortion.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:04 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

GuyZero, Kim Campbell had 15 kinds of class and way more relevant experience than this Palin person.

Man, US politics has gotten so skewed to the right that I'm wistfully looking at failed Conservative Canadian pols....
posted by QIbHom at 3:05 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

What a monumentally disastrous mistake by McCain. All of his gaffes over the past few months suggest to me a deteriorating mental acuity on his part. This choice is more evidence of impaired judgement. I'm really looking forward to the debates where networks such as CBS will not be able to excise his errors, or to hide Palin's painful inexperience.
posted by Neiltupper at 3:08 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

You missed the news, or didn't pay attention. "Experience" just became utterly irrelevant, and a mcCain victory just became the most likely outcome.
posted by Artw at 3:10 PM on August 29, 2008

Soiled utility baskets. The very worst kind.

I wish I was exaggerating.

(To be perfectly clear, the source of these claims is a whack job, and the state's investigation turned up no evidence that what she alleges actually happened, and even if it did, it would have already been illegal under state law, making the bill Obama voted against completely irrelevant.)
posted by designbot at 3:10 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh, I know, konolia.

But... it's not like running into conservative people, who would hold their nose and vote for McCain or just not vote, is hard to do in the rural south wedged between Pope and Bragg. That's all.

I'm sure that Palin will get some conservative evangelicals to the polls who weren't going to show up otherwise.

OTOH, I can't help but wonder what her being Catholic, and especially obviously Catholic with her parade of children, will have on the more fundamentalist voters. A papist a heartbeat away? When she wants prayer in school... is it to Christ or to Mary? Though by this point I'd bet the fraction who thinks Catholics aren't really Christian is pretty small.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:14 PM on August 29, 2008

and I scoff at any commentator who suggests with a straight face that Palin's resume and qualifications were more instrumental to her selection than the demographic appeal stemming largely from her age, gender, and photogenic appearance

She's pro-life, which fills in a big hole for McCain supporters. She is not a Washington insider. She's the most popular governor in the United States, with an approval rating in the 90 percent range. She has a reputation as a reformer -- she vetoed 13% of the state's proposed budget for capital projects and showed herself as someone capable of making tough decisions. She resigned from the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission after complaining about ethical violations from another commissioner, and was villified for a while and then became a hero for it. (Again, another tough decision.)

Not a single one of these qualities or accomplishments are dependant on her age, gender, or photogenic appearance, but perhaps they are all things that you think it is appropriate to scoff at. But go ahead and continue to believe that McCain picked her because she is a pretty, pretty princess. Because Democrats have never underestimated Republicans before -- or the willingness of middle america to elect the folks who are not necessarily the smartest or went to the best schools, but seem to them like the most decent people. Scoff away. You're still not getting it.
posted by onlyconnect at 3:15 PM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

>> You know, I think there's also a very good case to be made that this may motivate Hillary Clinton to work even harder to elect Barack Obama.

> What the fuck is Hillary Clinton supposed to do at this point, exactly? I'm tired of the HILLARY MUST WORK HARDER TO ELECT OBAMA idiocy, online and off.

And what the fuck makes you think that saying someone "may (be) motivate(d)" is the same as saying that she "MUST WORK HARDER"? Hillary can choose to do whatever she wants. However, I very much doubt she'll choose to sit this one out, for all the reasons DaShiv pointed out above.
posted by oneirodynia at 3:17 PM on August 29, 2008

All of his gaffes over the past few months suggest to me a deteriorating mental acuity on his part.

Do the candidates get to dictate these things? I assumed the party basically told them what to do, (but that the candidate probably got veto power if it was something they couldn't tolerate).
posted by small_ruminant at 3:21 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

BEST THREAD EVAH!
posted by Slothrup at 3:22 PM on August 29, 2008

Kim Campbell had 15 kinds of class and way more relevant experience than this Palin person.

Sure. Absolutely. But her career was destroyed by crashing onto the rocks during the backlash from Mulroney.

He's the worst case for Palin: McCain wins. McCain does a bunch of stuff all goes sour (like Mulroney at the end). Then he has a heart attack or something (election time finally came around for the Conservatives, now Campbell is at the helm). And who pays the price for the public's dislike of McCain (Mulroney)? That's right: the woman.

Seriously, for a (relatively) young politician, getting elected as VP could be the best, last move of Palin's political career. Campbell won the battle (becoming the first woman PM) but lost the war (was she the shortest-serving PM ever?). Palin could en up the exact same way. if I were her I would have stayed in Alaska and looked forward to a long series of oil company "loans" and "gifts" like ol' Ted.
posted by GuyZero at 3:22 PM on August 29, 2008

"I'm trying to draw a distinction, I guess, between what is rationally in people's best interest and how they are likely to act in that situation, and how the Democratic ticket should take that into account when deciding on their strategy for attacking McCain/Palin. "

I think that's a fair distinction, and I will agree that it's necessary to win irrational voters in order to win the presidency. I might even go so far as to say that morons are the biggest single demographic in America, and that the moron vote is often what decides the outcome of the presidential race.
posted by klangklangston at 3:27 PM on August 29, 2008 [12 favorites]

Huh. Wikipedia says she cancelled the "bridge to nowhere" after the federal funds were withdrawn and she declined to cough up the several hundred million dollar difference out of state funds. I keep hearing how she cancelled it, but that titbit sure casts it in a different light.
posted by Rumple at 3:32 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

The repugnant VPILF site has posts dating back to last week, which is interesting (is it a new domain with back dated posts?).

It looks like Dan Kaiser registered the domain on August 4 2008. Back in 1992 he ran as a Dem in the Washington state senate primary, district 28. So he's probably not a Republican insider.

All the HTML and photos from the earlier posts have a modification date of August 29 2008, as do the reader comments. I think the dates on the posts are the publication dates of the linked news articles.

The Aug 4 domain registration date is pretty curious though.
posted by ryanrs at 3:33 PM on August 29, 2008

Because Democrats have never underestimated Republicans before -- or the willingness of middle america to elect the folks who are not necessarily the smartest or went to the best schools, but seem to them like the most decent people. Scoff away. You're still not getting it.

McCain is the son and grandson of two four-star admirals. Obama was abandoned by his father and raised by a mother who had to use food stamps to get by. Bush was the son of a President of the United States and the grandson of a U.S. Senator and went to Yale and Harvard Business School. Bill Clinton was similarly abandoned by his father. It really is time to drop the whole 'Democrats are elitists' trope and acknowledge that the facts show otherwise.

This isn't 1988 or even 2004. This is 2008 and so much has changed and the GOP brand is so discredited that it is highly unlikely that "middle America" will save McCain from his rightful fate as a losing presidential candidate.
posted by Ironmouth at 3:35 PM on August 29, 2008 [12 favorites]

I never heard Obama say he was considering Clinton for vice president

Well, in May, Obama said she would be on anyone's short list of vice presidential candidates. But, indeed, that seems likely to have been more about flouting his lead than about his short list, given her absence when names were actually floated.

For what it's worth, I'm a male Democrat, and think Clinton faced a lot of disgusting sexism (and wish, particularly, that Chris Matthews were out of a job.)
posted by Zed_Lopez at 3:36 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Because the whole concept is an oxymoron based on fantasy and I am generally Reality-Based.

Oh, so now abortion doesn't kill a life? I wonder why people have abortions in the first place then? Oh, that's right, it's because if they didn't have the abortion, a human life would pop-out of them a few months later.

A woman's right to her own body is a very compelling argument in the abortion debate. And using that argument, I understand why people have a different position on this issue than me. But to try and claim that abortion doesn't end a developing baby's life runs counter to the ENTIRE reason people have abortions in the first place.
posted by jsonic at 3:37 PM on August 29, 2008

Campbell has that cushy think tank job in Spain still, right? I take your point, but she didn't exactly land hard.

While I'm fantasizing about Canadian female pols in US politics, maybe we could take Carolyn Parrish off your hands?
posted by QIbHom at 3:39 PM on August 29, 2008

Oh, so now abortion doesn't kill a life? I wonder why people have abortions in the first place then? Oh, that's right, it's because if they didn't have the abortion, a human life would pop-out of them a few months later.

And if they had a miscarriage, it wouldn't. Don't try to reduce the complexity of human reproduction down to a simmple binary of "is it life/isn't it?" It's awesomely complex and nobody knows for certain the moment when a mass of cells becomes something other than a mass of cells, which is why, when it comes time to make that decision, we leave it in the hands of the person we know to be affected by it, the women who has the mass of cells growing inside her.
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:42 PM on August 29, 2008 [14 favorites]

Women have abortions when they have 'stupid sex' with men who won't use condoms.
posted by Surfurrus at 3:44 PM on August 29, 2008

Okay, it's just turned into crazy talk down here.
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:46 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

OTOH, I can't help but wonder what her being Catholic
My understanding, for what it's worth, is that she is of the Pentecostal Assemblies of God persuasion.
posted by dawson at 3:48 PM on August 29, 2008

McCain is the son and grandson of two four-star admirals. Obama was abandoned by his father and raised by a mother who had to use food stamps to get by. Bush was the son of a President of the United States and the grandson of a U.S. Senator and went to Yale and Harvard Business School. Bill Clinton was similarly abandoned by his father. It really is time to drop the whole 'Democrats are elitists' trope and acknowledge that the facts show otherwise.

Were we watching the same campaign between Bush and Gore? Bush the Younger was the guy that everybody wanted to have a beer with, whereas Gore was the guy that talked like a robot in his speeches and folks thought was too much of a policy wonk, and not relatable to the average Joe. Likewise, Clinton was the guy who could talk to anybody, who had a way of making you feel like you were the only person in the room when he talked to you, whereas Bush the Elder was the guy who was so out of touch with middle america that he didn't know what a scanner in a grocery store was.

Obama's mom may have used food stamps, but as Obama himself said last night, he was able to go to the finest schools in the nation despite that. Surely you have heard the talk from naysayers that he has a messiah complex and is an elitist and is a "celebrity" candidate. McCain went to a military school (where he did badly) and went to war and spent half a decade in a prison camp and gets angry at people when he thinks they are rude to him.

So, in short, no, I don't think it's time to drop the trope that some people pick their presidential choice on the basis of who'd they'd rather have a beer with.
posted by onlyconnect at 3:48 PM on August 29, 2008

I'd rather have a beer with Obama.
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:50 PM on August 29, 2008 [15 favorites]

What the fuck is Hillary Clinton supposed to do at this point, exactly? I'm tired of the HILLARY MUST WORK HARDER TO ELECT OBAMA idiocy, online and off.

Stump continuously in Ohio. Really, she has everything to gain by going around just like she was on the ticket about how important Pres. Obama will be to accomplishing her goals for America. She and Obama will vote together 90% of the time. If she delivers from the Senate a healthcare bill with mandates, Obama will probably have to sign it. If she delivers that same bill to McCain he will laugh and laugh and veto. Maybe mention how she doesn't really want VP, but a cabinet position might be nice.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 3:50 PM on August 29, 2008

While I'm fantasizing about Canadian female pols in US politics, maybe we could take Carolyn Parrish off your hands?

Please.
posted by mazola at 3:51 PM on August 29, 2008

I'm curious as to where on the list Palin appeared as a potential presidential candidate. If she wasn't worth mention before, why would she be so now?

And I'm hoping someone will put the question to McCain about who his VP candidate would be if Obama were not black. The charge of cynical tokenism applies here as much as it did back when Rice's name was being thrown about as a possibility, back when Clinton had a chance.
posted by troybob at 3:51 PM on August 29, 2008

Women have abortions when they have 'stupid sex' with men who won't use condoms.

With so much trolling potential in a thread like this, that's the best you could do? Amateur.
posted by iamabot at 3:53 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

If it weren't for the topic of abortion I'd be tempted to drink the kool-aid.

So, knowing that the country could not possibly go back to outlawing abortion, you still choose to go with the less qualified and attractive candidate, because they mouth the right words on abortion? Let me know how that foot feels after the bullet passes through it.
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:55 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

It's awesomely complex and nobody knows for certain the moment when a mass of cells becomes something other than a mass of cells

We do know for certain, however, that baring a natural miscarriage, if you don't kill those living cells, a living human baby will be born. So any type of argument that claims a human life is not ended by abortion flies in the face of the very reason people have them in the first place.
posted by jsonic at 3:56 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Please... don't bare a natural miscarriage.

And this is hardly fertile ground for the same old abortion debate everyone has had a thousand times.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 3:58 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Clinton's statement on Palin:

"We should all be proud of Governor Sarah Palin’s historic nomination, and I congratulate her and Senator McCain. While their policies would take America in the wrong direction, Governor Palin will add an important new voice to the debate."

Not exactly what DaShiv was predicting, I think.
posted by spiderwire at 3:58 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

re: beauty queen Because it's very clearly that it's being used in this thread, if not outright, but as a subtext, to insinuate that somehow she's not smart enough to be Veep.

I am halfway through 400+ posts, and I want to say I'm not getting that impression at all. Some people just want to see that subtext.
posted by glycolized at 3:59 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

With so much trolling potential in a thread like this, that's the best you could do? Amateur.

Yes, sad. That comment (the condom one) was for jsonic. MEN who rage on about abortion piss me off.

I got carried away ... I will go now ...

... lighting candles for shriveling penises.
posted by Surfurrus at 4:00 PM on August 29, 2008

I am not a McCain supporter. I know nothing about Sarah Palin. I wouldn't vote for John McCain if Zombie Jesus himself was his running mate.

However. I would like to remind everyone that is yapping about "blah blah beauty pageant blah blah blah not smart enough to be VP blah blah blah" that Gerald Ford was a male model and coached JV Cheerleading before becoming VP, and then later, POTUS.

(That's not to say I'm a fan of Gerald Ford, either. It's just to say OH SHUT UP. Being pretty does NOT equal being stupid.)
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:00 PM on August 29, 2008

We do know for certain, however, that baring a natural miscarriage, if you don't kill those living cells, a living human baby will be born. So any type of argument that claims a human life is not ended by abortion flies in the face of the very reason people have them in the first place.

So what? The question is not what will it turn into, but what is it now, when it is still a zygote. And the answer is, we don't know. We just don't know when we should define it as human life. That's not an issue science can answer, and neither is it an issue religions agree on (nor should they be the ones to decide.) Which is why pro-choice is called pro-choice -- because, in the absense of certainty, the only fair thing we can do is allow the person (and I mean the person we know to be a person) affected by it to be the one to choose, base don their own ethics and morals and ability to reason.

Really, this is abortion debate 101. Go out and read a little, why don't you?
posted by Astro Zombie at 4:01 PM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

The question of the presidency is not resolved by the colour of the contendants skin it is asked by wether they have been circumcised or not?
posted by dollyknot at 4:01 PM on August 29, 2008

So any type of argument that claims a human life is not ended by abortion flies in the face of the very reason people have them in the first place.

FFS. Other things that will end a potential human life:

Condoms
The Pill
Getting turned down at the bar
posted by mkultra at 4:02 PM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

For future reference, here's a direct link to the Alaska Daily News article about Palin flying down to the Texas Governor's conference while 36 months pregnant with her Down syndrome child.

Way up in the thread, dollyknot commented that this (i.e., Palin's selection) just shows what is wrong with democracy.

Wrong. It shows that the way we implement democracy is broken. When you amalgamate opinion using a single vote system, you tend to wind up with two dominant parties (Duverger's Law). Of course, I'm slightly unhinged on this topic, never mind me.
posted by Araucaria at 4:02 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Male models can't walk and chew gum.
posted by Artw at 4:02 PM on August 29, 2008

She's not stupid because Gerald Ford wasn't stupid, grapefruitmoon? Eehhhh.... not a winning argument!!
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 4:03 PM on August 29, 2008

While I'm fantasizing about Canadian female pols in US politics, maybe we could take Carolyn Parrish off your hands?

Who was that woman I saw you with last night?

That was no woman - that was the ex-MP for Mississauga-Erindale!

I'm here all week, try the veal!

Besides, who would Parish score cheap points off of in the US? Hating Mexicans? oh god, I think I may actually be right

Still, Canada has had several female politicians that could both kick Palin's ass in a street fight and shut her down in a debate. Mainly I'm thinking of Sheila Cops here, whom I would not want to meet in either a dark alley or a parliamentary debate. Maybe McCain could have picked Belinda Stronach who kind of walks the Liberal-Conservative line. VPILF indeed. Rumors say Mr. Clinton may have.
posted by GuyZero at 4:03 PM on August 29, 2008

onlyconnect, it was a relief to read your excellent comment. You were able to articulate things that had only vaguely rattled around in the back of my thoughts. Thank you. Since the planet is divided fairly equally between the genders, it's always been so disheartening and bewildering to see, experience, the still rampant misogyny.

I never did like Hillary Clinton especially but I would have voted for her, reluctantly. However, I do think it was expected for her to be Obama's VP choice and when Biden was chosen it seemed lame, imo. The energy Hillary has put into Obama's election after she lost, it almost seems as if she has been like a VP choice. When McCain picked a female VP candidate, my first thought was how pathetically copycat wannabe. The thing is, by choosing a female VP, McCain may well get a larger percent of the women's vote. And that would be awful.

I just hope the Democrats are able to win.
posted by nickyskye at 4:04 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

36 months pregnant?

FFS. Other things that will end a potential human life:

Condoms
The Pill
Getting turned down at the bar

At least two of those will be illegal in 8 years time.
posted by Artw at 4:04 PM on August 29, 2008

However. I would like to remind everyone that is yapping about "blah blah beauty pageant blah blah blah not smart enough to be VP blah blah blah" that Gerald Ford was a male model and coached JV Cheerleading before becoming VP, and then later, POTUS.

Gerald Ford was not known for having either a good mind or good presidency.
posted by mkultra at 4:06 PM on August 29, 2008

We do know for certain, however, that baring a natural miscarriage, if you don't kill those living cells, a living human baby will be born. So any type of argument that claims a human life is not ended by abortion flies in the face of the very reason people have them in the first place.

And if you don't spay or neuter your pets, kittens will be born. STOP SPAYING YOUR PETS. WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE KITTENS.

Human life is not ended by abortion. What is removed in an abortion is not human. It is not viable. It can not live outside the uterus. It is, essentially, a tumor. A network of cells dependent on the host organism for growth. It is a human when it is born, living and breathing on its own. Trying to justify a pro-life stance by advocating that "babies" are killed isn't scientifically accurate and is a thinly veiled appeal to emotion, not reason.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:06 PM on August 29, 2008 [10 favorites]

Also, no tears for McCain not picking Meg Whitman? Was she really in the running in the end? She lacks the pageant credentials, but otherwise she's probably got more actual leadership experience than Palin. She could hire some developer to implement an eBay-like system for lobbyists to improve the economic efficiencies in buying off senators and house reps.
posted by GuyZero at 4:06 PM on August 29, 2008

grapefruitmoon, you are aware I'm sure that Gerald Ford was never elected to a National office? He was appointed VP, never elected to it, and we all know the rest of that story...
posted by Eekacat at 4:07 PM on August 29, 2008

She's not stupid because Gerald Ford wasn't stupid, grapefruitmoon? Eehhhh.... not a winning argument!!

No. She may be stupid because she's stupid. BUT. She's not stupid because she's pretty.

She may be pretty. She may be stupid. The two are NOT connected.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:08 PM on August 29, 2008

Konolia, I'd like to understand you and voters like you a bit better. What drives the abortion issue more for you with regard to presidential politics, is it that candidate's own belief that troubles you and colors your view of his judgement, or is it that you're afraid that he will appoint judges who will continue to not make abortion illegal? Or is it all the same thing?
posted by cell divide at 4:09 PM on August 29, 2008

True, Copps (especially) or Stronach would be better. I've just always had a weakness for the "screw it, I'm saying it" style of good ol' Carolyn. And doesn't McCain deserve being locked in a room with Parrish?

36 months pregnant, Arucaria? Holy shit! I'd be doing anything to bring that to an end I could, myself...
posted by QIbHom at 4:09 PM on August 29, 2008

Gerald Ford was not known for having either a good mind or good presidency.

Sure, I'm not debating that. I'm just saying that any perceived stupidity is completely INDEPENDENT of modeling/beauty pageant participation and it sticks in my craw to see people say "She was in beauty pageants! She can't be smart enough to be VP!"
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:10 PM on August 29, 2008

We do know for certain[sic], however, that baring[sic] a natural miscarriage, if you don't kill those living cells, a living human baby will be born.

[shaking his head like Reagan]There you go again, oversimplifying. Miscarriage isn't the only possibility and when you talk about possibilities rather than actualities, you are on a slippery slope. How probable does the anticipated human life have to be? As I've said before, each cell in your body is potentially a new human being, granted with very small probability, but if you wanted to you could get a molecular biologist to genetically engineer a clone from DNA out of one of your cells. So every time you spit, by your definition, human life is being killed.

Ah, well, we won't prosecute you when the laws change, murderer, but just know that you are one.
posted by Mental Wimp at 4:10 PM on August 29, 2008

I'm totally not going to vote for Palin just because I was a Hillary supporter. I'm voting Democrat because I agree with (most) of the Obama/Biden policies. However, I did think it was cool that she called her husband, "Alaska's First Dude" in that Bartiromo interview. I can't imagine Biden calling his wife "Delaware's First Chick."
posted by bluefly at 4:11 PM on August 29, 2008

Clinton's statement on Palin

I assume this means Hillary Clinton's statement on Palin; the link didn't specify exactly which Clinton this was, I'll assume it was her. Interesting that her comment on Palin is almost an exact mirror of what McCain said about Obama in the nomination ad.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:12 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

grapefruitmoon, you are aware I'm sure that Gerald Ford was never elected to a National office? He was appointed VP, never elected to it, and we all know the rest of that story...

Oh geez. What brand of shampoo are we going to use on all of these hairs that we are splitting? I was talking about how any physical attractiveness-based program activities do NOT immediately place the participants on the short bus, ineligible for national office. Should we instead debate the merits of Gerald Ford's entire political career?
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:14 PM on August 29, 2008

OTOH if Palin offered me beer and nachos, I would accept.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 4:14 PM on August 29, 2008

I personally don't care that a fetus could become a human being. I am ALREADY a human being, with legally given rights.

I am very afraid right now that they are going to make the entire election about abortion. And that if McCain is made President, well, I can kiss my reproductive rights (as well as many of those pesky Constitutional rights) out the window.

I'm not engaging in hyperbole - I am honestly, deeply, truly afraid.
posted by agregoli at 4:15 PM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

wedged between Pope and Bragg

Point of order: Pope is wedged INSIDE Bragg. No rednecks in between, sorry.
posted by konolia at 4:15 PM on August 29, 2008

Should we instead debate the merits of Gerald Ford's entire political career?

It's less tedious and fresher than the abortion debate.
posted by GuyZero at 4:17 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

I was talking about how any physical attractiveness-based program activities do NOT immediately place the participants on the short bus, ineligible for national office.

But why not? It's pretty laughable to engage in.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 4:19 PM on August 29, 2008

I don't understand, everybody seems to be completely missing the most important qualification:

Was she a POW or wasn't she?
posted by Flunkie at 4:19 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

But to try and claim that abortion doesn't end a developing baby's life runs counter to the ENTIRE reason people have abortions in the first place.

Which puts you in full support of Forced Childbirth, which is pretty much the bottom-line of the anti-abortion position. Which leads logically to the concept that any action to prevent conception is also immoral as another attempt to deny future children their lives. But you very nearly admitted the simple fact that fetuses are potential human life and, in the first few weeks, as close to a living human as a completed set of blueprints and a cleared lot are to a constructed house.

But even as one who places a distinct line between potential and realized human life, I still find the evidence that Mrs. Palin gave making an out-of-state poltical appearance priority over her unborn child's future life and health earlier this year to be extremely significant.
posted by wendell at 4:20 PM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

(That's not to say I'm a fan of Gerald Ford, either. It's just to say OH SHUT UP. Being pretty does NOT equal being stupid.)

Look, really, before you go tossing around the "OH SHUT UP"s, how many people are saying that? At this point you're willfully ignoring many responses to your same accusation, but I'll go ahead and say it again:

Beauty Pageant Contestant does NOT = Sarah Palin is stupid!

Beauty Pageant Contestant does = Sarah Palin supporting a practice many of us disagree with and fight against as feminists. Does being pretty mean you have to take part in competitions designed to rank and judge women based on their looks, as if society itself wasn't bad enough?
posted by Solon and Thanks at 4:20 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

Palin on the Charlie Rose show.

I saw this when it aired, and was actually pretty impressed with her. I in no way think that she is presidential material, but... she's impressive on camera.
posted by Espoo2 at 4:21 PM on August 29, 2008

She may be pretty. She may be stupid. The two are NOT connected.

Which is why the whole "it's a scholarship program" angle is such a joke.
posted by hydrophonic at 4:21 PM on August 29, 2008

I'm not engaging in hyperbole - I am honestly, deeply, truly afraid.

I'm pretty much assuming that's what's happening and that forcing the election to be an up down poll on abortion means an automatic win for the Republicans - because arguing against abortion is tricky (see: this thread), and if it's the only thing anyone talks about democrats can't really NOT tackle it.

If anyone has a good argument as to why I'm wrong so I can not be horribly depressed for this weekend (and the next two months) I'd be really happy to hear it right now.
posted by Artw at 4:22 PM on August 29, 2008

I don't think she's stupid because she was the runner up for Miss Alaska. I think she's funny because she was the runner up for Miss Alaska.
posted by Astro Zombie at 4:23 PM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

Hello Whatsitsname,

Metafilter you are the star, whatever the result of the American fool elections.

A fool will end up running the human race.

okay.

Ask me why
posted by dollyknot at 4:23 PM on August 29, 2008

Oh, and also Sarah Palin got a 4 year scholarship from being in that beauty pageant. How 'stupid' is that I ask?
posted by dawson at 4:23 PM on August 29, 2008

An interview with Sarah Palin by Newsweek. Topics include her beauty queen past, her reaction to the media treatment of Hillary Clinton, motherhood and politics, corruption in Alaskan politics, partisanship and criticism of her by the Republican party.
posted by netbros at 4:24 PM on August 29, 2008

Just to throw the discussion off on another ridiculous tangent:

Am I the only one who thinks that Mrs. Palin resembles a slighly older version of Tina Fey? (Or is that just the glasses?)
posted by wendell at 4:24 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

on non-preview, me go now.
posted by dawson at 4:24 PM on August 29, 2008

John McCain's gimmick: He doesn't even know Sarah Palin. They've only met twice.

No one knows Palin [video | 01:19].
posted by ericb at 4:24 PM on August 29, 2008

Human life is not ended by abortion

If a pregnant lady lets her baby develop, then a human life is born. If she has an abortion, then no baby is born. Yet you continue to claim that a human life is not actively ended by abortion. Regardless of one's opinion on when human life begins, the result is the same. This is completely different than the pill (in most cases) and condoms where no life has already started developing.

And this whole argument of "hey, a miscarriage might happen, so it's ok if we kill it now regardless" makes no sense and is kinda twisted. Might as well kill old people then, they might have a heart-attack tomorrow.
posted by jsonic at 4:24 PM on August 29, 2008

The Colonel Tigh (R- Hanoi Hilton)/Laura Roslin (R- Bosom of Jesus) ticket is actually going to be very hard to beat.
posted by darth_tedious at 4:26 PM on August 29, 2008 [7 favorites]

Yawns widely

Smiles sadly
posted by dollyknot at 4:26 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin is a fundamentalist whacko. Obama is a poor choice to lead the charge against fundamentalist whack jobs, because he believes that religion is politically useful and should be rewarded by government.
posted by Brian B. at 4:27 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

And this whole argument of "hey, a miscarriage might happen, so it's ok if we kill it now regardless" makes no sense and is kinda twisted. Might as well kill old people then, they might have a heart-attack tomorrow.

Yeah, as I thought. You're not following the discussion at all, have not bothered to research it, and are falling back on the tiredest, most reductive argument of all, despite its flaws being repeatedly pointed out. I'm done.
posted by Astro Zombie at 4:27 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

60 Days To Judge a Commander in Chief?

"I'm going to be very blunt, here. I wish Senator McCain a very long and happy life. But, at age 72 with a history of cancer, John McCain may not live through his first term, if elected. That would make Sarah Palin our Commander in Chief. I, and other vets and troops, have about 60 days to determine if she'll grow to be ready.

She's not ready now -- not based on the complete blank resume on global strategic issues and veterans issues. To be fair, Barack Obama wasn't ready to be Commander in Chief when he became Senator in 2005.

But, over the course of the last few years, and the last year-and-a-half in particular, I've been able to soundly judge Senator Obama, and watch him grow into a readied potential Commander in Chief. In the Senate, serving on the Foreign Affairs committee, he's tackled some of the major issues of our time, asking probing and highly informed questions of military leaders and diplomatic leaders.

I've been able to watch his thought process in action, and have seen him been proven right on Iraq, right on Afghanistan, right on talking to Iran, and right on the war on terror. He's shown an incredible ability to think in much larger strategic terms than this president, to the point that I'm supremely confident he is ready to lead our Armed Forces.

Sarah Palin? God only knows."

-- Jon Soltz, Co-Founder and Chair of VoteVets.org

posted by ericb at 4:28 PM on August 29, 2008 [9 favorites]

McCain Spokeswoman: I Have No Idea What McCain's Relationship Is With Palin.
posted by ericb at 4:31 PM on August 29, 2008

Oh, and also Sarah Palin got a 4 year scholarship from being in that beauty pageant. How 'stupid' is that I ask?

I don't think it's stupid. I think it's selling out, assuming she considers herself a feminist in a first place. It's like showing your boobs at mardi gras for beads. She got beads, how awesome! Who cares about setting women back or giving in to the disgusting misogynists who run the competitions... beads!!
posted by Solon and Thanks at 4:31 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

“As for that VP talk all the time, I’ll tell you, I still can’t answer that question until somebody answers for me what is it exactly that the VP does every day? I’m used to being very productive and working real hard in an administration. We want to make sure that that VP slot would be a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans and for the things that we’re trying to accomplish up here for the rest of the U.S., before I can even start addressing that question.”

Excuse me?

She wants to be Vice President of the United States of America so long as she can use her position to benefit Alaskans specifically?
posted by Flunkie at 4:32 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm not educated about these things, but is it customary in the Army to be deployed exactly one year to the day after you have enlisted? For him to be shipped off to Iraq on September 11th, it all seems so .. contrived.
posted by Ugh at 4:35 PM on August 29, 2008

Palin is seemingly unaware of McCain’s Iraq plan.

"In an August 14 interview with Time Magazine, Gov. Sarah Palin (R-AK), now Sen. John McCain’s (R-AZ) running mate, suggested that McCain had not shared his plan for Iraq with her. Palin, who has not been to Iraq, said she does not know 'what the plan is to ever end the war.' She later said its 'tough' to 'talk about the plan for the war' because her son will be deployed to Iraq this September. 'Let’s make sure we have a plan here,' she said. Palin then added, 'respecting McCain’s position on that too though.'

Matt Duss notes that by trying to 'make news with an unknown, stunt VP pick, McCain has shortchanged the issue which he himself insists is the most important — national security.'"

posted by ericb at 4:40 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I would vote Obama regardless of the abortion issue (I'm stridently anti-abortion), what I'm wondering is, how many of you that embrace abortion rights more than, say, the right to belong to a religion, would NOT vote for McCain because of this veep pick? What I mean is, is the right to abort an unborn human as large an issue to you as it seems?

I'd choose the first amendment over Roe v. Wade, if that's what you're asking. Though I think the likelihood of seeing in my lifetime a candidate who'd strike the First and uphold Roe run against one who'd do the opposite, in a situation where both would be equally likely to succeed at those goals if elected, is...low.

In the real world, I don't think McCain's choice of VP would have any effect at all at whether Roe would be overturned as a result of a McCain presidency, no matter who he'd picked. He'll either get the chance to appoint justices or he won't. After that, it's in the hands of the court. It's more that choosing a pro-life VP reassures pro-life voters that he's really pro-life.
posted by lampoil at 4:41 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

YouTube footage of Sarah Palin calling Hillary Clinton's criticism of sexist media coverage as a perceived whine.
posted by jonp72 at 4:44 PM on August 29, 2008

There are 209 posts on the 18-hour-old Metafilter thread about Obama's historic nomination acceptance speech. This 8-hour-old thread, discussing McCain's VP choice of a little-known person with a thin resume, has 650 posts and rising. Palin's name and face are all over the front of every major news site, while coverage of the DNC has pretty much disappeared.

It's certainly getting attention, but I think a full week of around-the-clock coverage would be neccesary just to get people to remember her name. And I think all the comments in this thread are indicative not of McCain's bold and decisive whatever, but of how completely hilarious a choice this was.
posted by Uppity Pigeon #2 at 4:45 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Sarah Palin's Workout
Coming Sept. 6 in the debut issue of WSJ. Magazine, a conversation with Gov. Sarah Palin about her unusual fitness routine. Preview excerpt :P

viz!
posted by kliuless at 4:45 PM on August 29, 2008

grapefruitmoon, no, I'm not splitting hairs with you at all. Gerald Ford is just a bad example to use for anything Presidential since he never had to run for the national office he held, and when he did run, he lost. He was pretty much put in to be a patsy for a corrupt administration, and the fact he was a male model was probably to his benefit in getting confirmed. A dumb pretty boy was preferable to a jowly schemer.
posted by Eekacat at 4:46 PM on August 29, 2008

McCain Spokeswoman: I Have No Idea What McCain's Relationship Is With Palin.

Well it's not like McCains going to know either.
posted by Artw at 4:48 PM on August 29, 2008

Flunkie: "Excuse me?

She wants to be Vice President of the United States of America so long as she can use her position to benefit Alaskans specifically?"

To be completely fair, she's the Gov of AK. I don't think there's any shame in, when acting in that capacity, publicly desiring the best for one's constituency.

Less subtle: the other 49 weren't here problem then: they are now.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 4:50 PM on August 29, 2008

Kliuless, that interview is so freaking cutesy.

And I always wear sunglasses. My kids tell me to put them on so I don't freak people out when they see me with a goofy hairdo and no makeup."

Yay!
posted by agregoli at 4:51 PM on August 29, 2008

Put me in the camp that thinks this pick was used as a distraction and she'll be replaced by someone else soon.
posted by diogenes at 4:51 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

Gov. Palin, a mother of five kids, says exercise is still very much a "family thing." She and her husband, Todd, also an athlete, named their first son Track because he was born in that sport's season.

Good thing he wasn't born in a different season.

"TEAM HANDBALL PALIN! Dinner time! And get your sister Synchronized Diving!"
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:51 PM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

Beauty Pageant Contestant does = Sarah Palin supporting a practice many of us disagree with and fight against as feminists. Does being pretty mean you have to take part in competitions designed to rank and judge women based on their looks, as if society itself wasn't bad enough?

I'm getting a lot of vibes from this thread that I've encountered a lot in Meat Space that, well, stick in my craw. And the vibes go as follows: attractive women are not allowed to "flaunt" said attractiveness without every other thing that they may ever do being negated by other women. You, yourself, say that she is participating in a system that is anti-feminist and that itself is worthy of scorn. So, you, as a feminist feel that beauty pageants are awful. Great. Don't participate in them! It doesn't strike me as very "feminist" to me to hear the message "You can be pretty, or you can be smart, but you can't be both!"

I'm a feminist. I've also worked as a model, both in fashion and in art. Not extensively, mind, but I have put myself on display to be ranked and judged - willingly. Did being pretty mean that I *had* to do this? No. But it was MY CHOICE. I refuse to accept that if you're a woman and you're pretty, that you should do everything you can to deny that or else you're a "bad feminist." And this is a message that I hear from other women, all the time.

Her decision to participate in a beauty pageant has no bearing on her ability to be VP. None. Whatsoever. Any faults she may have are completely independent of physical attractiveness and how she chooses to present it. If she is a "bad feminist," it is because of her political opinions, not because she won Miss Congeniality.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:56 PM on August 29, 2008 [12 favorites]

It's not the team sitting on a safe lead that calls for a Hail Mary -- but then again, the play's been known to win many a game. It's not exactly a smart play, but not quite as desperate as an onside kick or faked punt, either. It's a risky, usually unsuccessful maneuver that occasionally reaps massive dividends. Palin means McCain is a gambling man.

Well that's certainly a fantastic characteristic for a President.

Oh, wait, I didn't mean "fantastic". I got confused, because the word I meant to say is also an adjective.
posted by Flunkie at 4:57 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

If a pregnant lady lets her baby develop, then a human life is born. If she has an abortion, then no baby is born. Yet you continue to claim that a human life is not actively ended by abortion. Regardless of one's opinion on when human life begins, the result is the same. This is completely different than the pill (in most cases) and condoms where no life has already started developing.

I think viability is a lousy metric to use to define personhood. It is ridiculously reductive, saying nothing about why a human life is important. I would suggest that it begins with the development of mind and the capacity for experience, a view that I expect many to most others here share. This is a process that begins, most neurologic evidence suggests, at some point fairly comfortably into the third trimester. Shrilly harping on about murdering unborn lives or whatever is doing very little to convince me that your metric is right and mine is wrong. May I suggest you take some time out to reflect on arguments you could make to me and others that at least carry some recognition of and which are directed towards this difference in our fundamental assumptions? I bet everyone will find it to be more interesting, and who knows, maybe there is some possibility that you'll convince someone of something.
posted by monocyte at 4:57 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I don't think it's stupid. I think it's selling out, assuming she considers herself a feminist in a first place. It's like showing your boobs at mardi gras for beads. She got beads, how awesome! Who cares about setting women back or giving in to the disgusting misogynists who run the competitions... beads!!

This is exactly what I'm talking about.

Do we really all need to grow mullets and wear cargo pants and burlap sacks to be good feminists? Because you're going to have to rip my mascara out of my cold, dead hands.
posted by grapefruitmoon at 4:59 PM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

By the way, I'm going to add about Palin's scholarship. I have a four year scholarship for a higher ranked university than UI and I wasn't even in the top third of my high school class. I'm not a prodigy in anything, either - I practiced a lot for tests, in addition to applying to a lot of scholarships and spending a lot of time on essays.

Forgive me for not having a lot of patience with people who feel they'd rather earn a scholarship by trotting around in a swimsuit and having people score them. God. Don't get me wrong, they can do whatever they want to get that money - I just don't feel they represent me and have in fact done more to hurt my reputation as a woman than they have helped.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 5:00 PM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

Palin's name and face are all over the front of every major news site, while coverage of the DNC has pretty much disappeared.

Fine by me. 38 MILLION people watched Barack's speech. The quicker the pundits talk about something else and let that direct experience marinate, the better. The alternative is is Fox newscasters and Ron Fournier of the AP explaining why Obama's speech wasn't what it appeared to be.
posted by msalt at 5:00 PM on August 29, 2008 [10 favorites]

Do we really all need to grow mullets and wear cargo pants and burlap sacks to be good feminists? Because you're going to have to rip my mascara out of my cold, dead hands.

Did I say that? Do you really see no difference between wearing what one wants and participating in being judged and scored based basically solely on your looks? Do you not understand how one is a fundamentally messed up practice designed to perpetrate the idea that it's fine and dandy to judge women based on how pretty they are?

I love my mascara, too, but if someone wants to score me based on my appearance they're going to find that nice stick of mascara jammed into their forehead.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 5:02 PM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

Jesus tap-dancing Christ. If McCain wanted a former beauty queen with no experience and a criminal investigation on her record I don’t know why he didn’t just pick his own wife.

Maybe, but she's not NRA, not very religious (only pious), not all the kids are her own and she a second wife, not good for the ultraconservatives, and she had problems with drugs. She much more Diana than a soccer mom.

I guess McCain is going for identification, attempting to look less "librl lol" to some audience, captivating their vote, while looking moderate, but still better than Obama just because he's not librl, lol! bump and shit. Any critic direct to Palin could be seen as an attack to an archetype conservative, doesn't matter if it's an witty observation, it will be framed as an otrageous attack.
posted by elpapacito at 5:03 PM on August 29, 2008

Lets say that the only requisite for being a feminist is not objectifying women. Beauty Pageants make that... dissonant at best.
posted by butterstick at 5:04 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

FWIW I'd consider modeling a lot less weird and creepy than beauty pageant. Other things I consider less creepy than beauty pageant would include softcore and spiders.
posted by Artw at 5:05 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Things more creepy than beauty pageants: Dolls.
posted by Artw at 5:05 PM on August 29, 2008

Have you seen child beauty pageants, Artw? Pretty much combine the two. Terrifying.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 5:06 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Put me in the camp that thinks this pick was used as a distraction and she'll be replaced by someone else soon.

Does this mean that there's still hope of a McCain/Romney ticket? It's been my dream all year to see Romney somewhere on the national ballot...
posted by kaibutsu at 5:06 PM on August 29, 2008

grapefruitmoon, I hear where you're coming from, I do. But her participation in beauty pageants, when combined with her known political positions, contributes to my viewing of her as someone who does not hold the same values as me - particularly feminist ones.

I still can't quite grok it - you don't have to "deny" your attractiveness to be truly feminist. But I'm not going to be all fuzzy about someone who says they are a feminist and yet participates in a competition with other women to be judged the most beautiful, when that is a metric often used to "rate" women outside of competitions, where it most certainly doesn't belong.

Your being a model in both fashion and art, is slightly different than being in a competition soley judging on looks. Both the fashion and art industries, despite their known evil connotations, are still based on good design and a desire for an artistic aesthetic. I can get behind that in many instances. Beauty pageants, not so much. I get what you're saying, I do...but I don't agree.
posted by agregoli at 5:07 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

Solon - They scare the living shit out of me to the point where I consider them to be a portion of the ULTRA-WRONG UNIVERSE into the earthly plane.
posted by Artw at 5:07 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

what if McCain dies?

Indeed. With Tim Russert's sudden demise, Bernie Mac's turn for the worse -- I don't know which bothers me more, McCain's vulnerability to the onset of illness or his seeming obliviousness to the fact that whoever serves as VP, will have to be "ready" at a moment's notice.
posted by skyper at 5:07 PM on August 29, 2008

so, dearest barack: you may have a funny name, you may be black, you may be against abortion, you may have a real problem with the hillary crowd but the republicans seem to have acquired a taste for that old dance the democrats have very nearly perfected since the days of good old hapless george mc govern. you may be hopeful.

Barack Obama is a consistent and strong supporter of the right to choose.
posted by Flunkie at 5:09 PM on August 29, 2008

Does it have to be the VP?
posted by Artw at 5:09 PM on August 29, 2008

We all know that to date, Obama has received the lion's share of media coverage in this race.

Hmm, but look at this - so far mefites have offered:
209 comments on Obama's speech last night
653 comments on McCain's selection of Palin.

McCain's choice is, at the very least, getting him some attention.
posted by marlys at 5:10 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Put me in the camp that thinks this pick was used as a distraction and she'll be replaced by someone else soon.

There's no way that could be worth the horrible PR of screwing up your first VP pick. No, they (hilariously) mean to ride this one out.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:11 PM on August 29, 2008

The New Nixon
posted by homunculus at 5:12 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

(was she the shortest-serving PM ever?)

Nope, that was Sir Charles Tupper, for 2 months in 1896. For 9 days in 1894 we had no PM at all though, so Nobody wins the race for shortest term, as it were, lol.
posted by zarah at 5:16 PM on August 29, 2008

I wonder if anybody will notice this completely off-topic and useless comment in this vast sea of debate. *crosses fingers*
posted by tehloki at 5:17 PM on August 29, 2008 [20 favorites]

I assume this means Hillary Clinton's statement on Palin; the link didn't specify exactly which Clinton this was, I'll assume it was her.

Yeah, it's from TalkLeft and it wasn't cited, so take it for what you will, etc. I'm hopeful that Hillary will at least eventually take a few swings -- I think DaShiv's right that her political and personal motives, as far as I'm able to divine them, both seem to counsel in favor of it.

The pandering that's implicit in the pick would have been bad enough on its own. But for Palin to explicitly invoke Hillary's campaign and to check the "18 million cracks" line is an insult. Hillary Clinton has been a New York Senator for longer than Sarah Palin has even been governor. Clinton was the First Lady of the United States and an accomplished national figure in her own right before Palin even entered politics as the mayor of a 9,000-person podunk town in Alaska. I mean, give me a break.

I wouldn't have said the same thing about, say, Kay Bailey Hutchinson, or any of a number of other eminently-qualified women who were apparently vetted by the McCain campaign. But this is lame.
posted by spiderwire at 5:19 PM on August 29, 2008

750 comments? Crazy

Other things I consider less creepy than beauty pageant would include softcore and spiders.

That seems very strange. Although I do think people have a stereotype of beauty pageant participants as being, well, not that bright.

attractive women are not allowed to "flaunt" said attractiveness without every other thing that they may ever do being negated by other women.

Well, attractive women are allowed to "flaunt" their attractiveness by men, but of course less attractive women are going to be jealous. Attractive women are able to achieve much more in life due to their good looks. What is a less attractive woman going to say "gosh, she's dumber then me and lazier, but she's so good looking so I don't mind her working half as hard for ten times as much money!"
posted by delmoi at 5:20 PM on August 29, 2008

I wouldn't have said the same thing about, say, Kay Bailey Hutchinson, or any of a number of other eminently-qualified women who were apparently vetted by the McCain campaign. But this is lame.

They went with Palin because she's a huckabeesque bible Thumper. The other women that were being considered for the job were much more feminist (read: pro-life).

Sarah Palin is not going to pick up disaffected Hillary voters, but she will really help congeal the religious part of the base, and make lots of news.
posted by delmoi at 5:23 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

She and her husband, Todd, also an athlete, named their first son Track because he was born in that sport's season.

Drome would have worked better.
posted by netbros at 5:26 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

The Alaska Legislature's report on Palin's trouper scandal to be released in the first couple days of November...
posted by delmoi at 5:27 PM on August 29, 2008

In addition to what I wrote above, let' see what Rush had to say to his loyal audience when John introduced her (just some bits taken here and there):

RUSH: He just bashed the liberals! All right!
RUSH: Okay, here she comes. She's coming out with her family and her husband who works in the oil business helping to create the fuel that Obama uses to fly all over the country.
RUSH: This is going so well. She's wearing a skirt, too, folks. She just introduced her family. Her husband and her celebrating their 20th anniversary today.
RUSH: Hockey mom. Pistol-packing hockey mom!
PALIN: It was rightly noted in Denver this week that Hillary left 18 million cracks in the highest, hardest glass ceiling in America. But it turns out the women of America aren't finished yet, and we can shatter that glass ceiling once and for all!
posted by elpapacito at 5:27 PM on August 29, 2008

Just chiming in here with those who said that abortion will be one of the central themes of this election -- except that it will probably be embedded into a broader theme. Something like 'family values' or 'American values'.

This is bad news for Obama: He will try to tip-toe around the issue, giving non-committal statements, whereas the other camp will just state their opinion straightforwardly. Straight-talk indeed. Obama is going to look bad in the process. Can he be trusted? Isn't his tiptoeing precisely the kind of politics he was promising to change? And speaking of change, why isn't he willing to do anything about the 100,000 babies killed each year? And if he doesn't care, why would he care about our troops in Iraq?

Also, like Artw said, experience just became utterly irrelevant. And for a good reason. Obama doesn't look or sound inexperienced. Casting him as inexperienced didn't work for Hillary, so why should it work for McCain?

In addition, I think there will be an additional 'Alaska angle'. Such as a stand-off with Russia regarding oil fields near Alaska that now have suddenly become accessible. This will not only create a general sense of crisis that will make the ex-POW look like the better choice, but will also give Palin the chance to look knowledgeable and relevant. ("Joe Biden may know a lot about Iranian arms programs, but how often has he been to Alaska? Obama may be popular in Europe, but will he do what is necessary to defend the largest state of the union?")

To sum up, this was a brilliant move. I can't wait to learn what they come up with next.
posted by sour cream at 5:29 PM on August 29, 2008

A great pick for McCain. A few hours ago I got an email from Joe Biden via Obama's website saying that today McCain would announce who the next Dick Cheney would be. Can they really paint this lady as Dick Cheney? Takes away a lot of the "McCain is Bush" rhetoric.

Her experience is a concern but Obama can't bring it up without the conversation turning to his own lack of experience, which is a conversation McCain wants to have. FWIW, executive experience is more valuable than senatorial experience. Until Gore and Cheney, the VP's job was basically to wake up and see if the president was dead. Perhaps we're going back to those days in either case.

Lots of dems are excited to see the VP debates, but how can Biden pound on a pretty, polite mother of 5? A difficult feat to pull off. Besides, here's a prediction on the VP debates: Republicans will say Palin is won and Dems will say Biden won.

With regards to military issues, a big cry from the anti-war crowd over the past 8 years was how Bush/Cheney's sent other people's kids to war when they never served and their own kids didn't either. Now you have two Iraq war proponents who's own children served or will serve in Iraq.

Finally, she's a pro-gun, pro-life mom with traditional values, which should play well to the religious right McCain was said to have trouble with.

The more I think about it, the more this shuts down so many of Obama's arguments. It's a really, really great pick, politically at least.
posted by b_thinky at 5:32 PM on August 29, 2008

I've never understood why it's OK for people to flaunt/use their intelligence (which you are to a large extent born with) to get ahead, but not their appearance. Both have a big innate quality, and both can be shaped by hard work (exercise, hygiene, etc in the case of appearance).

And the idea that all women are hurt because some choose to use their appearance seems equally lame. If you have to change your behavior based on what others (those who judge women solely/mostly on appearance for all things, ie assholes) are doing, they've still won. Women should be free to make either choice, like men are (or for the lucky ones, both). Maybe society is not quite there yet, but I don't think that should restrict individuals decisions on their own lives.
posted by wildcrdj at 5:32 PM on August 29, 2008

She admits that she used marijuana when it was legal in Alaska, but says that she did not like it.

FAIL.

First off, she's not extremely attractive (no more so than Cynthia McKinney), so let's just throw out that canard.

Second, I don't get the whole P.U.M.A. thing. Until today, I thought the puma slang term meant "cougar in training."

Did they pick that name on purpose? Ugh.

If you support Hillary Clinton and hate Barack Obama because of "the lack of respect" he gave to Clinton supporters, wouldn't you be better off supporting Cynthia McKinney or Ralph Nader (who lean much closer to Clinton politically) than John McCain?

I've known women who would tell you that there's no reason to get specifically screened for Downs unless you're at least thinking of abortion.

Agreed. Can anyone explain why else you would screen for genetic abnormalities unless you were considering abortion if the tests came back positive? My wife and I are expecting, and did not do any genetic or diagnostic testing because we wouldn't abort in any case.

It took many months for me to get my arms around the idea of, first, having a fifth child at my age, but also knowing that my child would have an extra chromosome.

So how and why did Sarah Palin find out ahead of time? Is there any other reason to test if you would never consider abortion?

If not, isn't the pro-choice story here that Sarah Palin had that choice to make and indeed made a choice, just like every other woman deserves?
posted by mrgrimm at 5:33 PM on August 29, 2008

So, how many favorites do we think DaShiv picks up in the next three months? I'm going with 2500. Seriously. Twenty five hundred favorites between now and and, say, two weeks after the election.
posted by Kwine at 5:40 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Can anyone explain why else you would screen for genetic abnormalities unless you were considering abortion if the tests came back positive?

Just off the top of my head; if you're particularly conscientious, you would probably need to learn about the adjustments you'll need to make to your life in the future to care for a child with Downs syndrome. Maybe people like to find out in advance so they can start preparing to care for a child with special needs?

You don't need to know the sex of your child (and I'd hope no-one out there is getting abortions based on the sex of their foetus) but it's something people like to find out. Now that the technology exists, why not find out about genetic conditions your child will have as well?
posted by Jimbob at 5:45 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin's name and face are all over the front of every major news site, while coverage of the DNC has pretty much disappeared.

Obama's speech was front-page news on most newspapers this morning. I watched CNN, MSNBC and NBC Nightly News this evening and they all covered last night's record-breaking speech -- albeit after a story on Palin.

There are 209 posts on the 18-hour-old Metafilter thread about Obama's historic nomination acceptance speech. This 8-hour-old thread, discussing McCain's VP choice of a little-known person with a thin resume, has 650 posts and rising.

Yeah. So, what?

The fact that this thread is generating more comments than the Obama Speech thread is indicative of the fact that Palin is such an 'unknown' that we here on MeFi seek to discuss her selection as a V.P. candidate, learn more about her past, qualifications, etc.

There's not much nuance left to discuss regarding Obama's phenomenal performance last night.

“MSNBC Pat Buchanan – ‘It was a genuinely outstanding speech. It was magnificent. It is the finest – and I saw Cuomo’s speech, I saw Kennedy in ‘80, I even saw Douglas MacArthur, I saw Martin Luther King – this is the greatest convention speech, and probably the most important because unlike Cuomo and the others this is an acceptance speech. This came out of the heart of America and he went right at the heart of America…’

FOX Bill Kristol – ‘Barack Obama faced very high expectations tonight and honestly I think he met them and I honestly think he exceeded them…He eloquently explained America’s promise. He explained why the Bush Cheney administration had fallen short of that…I thought it was an awfully impressive performance.

CNN David Gergen – ‘In many ways it was less a speech than a symphony…It was a masterpiece’

MSNBC Tom Brokaw – ‘It was a wonderfully crafted political speech and the Republicans I’m sure were looking in and wondering what they’re going to be able to do next week to match it’

CNN Paul Begala – ‘He went fearlessly at John McCain’s greatest strength, national security. He went proudly into the social issue terrain that Democrats are usually so afraid of. He went boldly attacking the status quo of George Bush, Dick Cheney and John McCain, and then he went very comfortably in your living room…This is my ninth convention, it was as very nearly a perfect convention speech as I can imagine…’

MSNBC Chris Matthews – ‘I thought it was amazing – I’ve written speeches all my life, of course nothing like this…It was a great way of throwing back the other side’s best shot and saying it’s full of crap’

CNN Campbell Brown – ‘If anybody ever thought that Barack Obama was not tough enough to run against John McCain this speech should really put an end to that…’

FOX Chris Wallace – ‘I thought it was an exceedingly smart speech in which Barack Obama played offense and defense very effectively.’

CNN – Sen. Clinton delegates on Obama’s speech:
Jessica Yellin: ‘I have three people who as you say have been following this for a long time. Two of these women are Hillary Clinton supporters and I wanted to ask you first…

Woman: ‘Were.’

Yellin: ‘Were Hillary Clinton supporters. What turned you tonight?

Woman: ‘His speech, and I like her enjoyed it all but the end is what got me. You know, it’s a dream and it’s going to come true we gotta’ work for it. That’s what I got out of it.’”

posted by ericb at 5:45 PM on August 29, 2008 [13 favorites]

A moment ago, I just saw video of her speech today. As she was talking, it genuinely looked like McCain was checking out her ass, or something like that.

I'm not snarking - I feel weird posting this, and it seemed genuinely bizarre to me. He kept doing it, too.

Did anyone else notice this, or am I imagining it?
posted by Flunkie at 5:49 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Google reveals that I am not alone in thinking that McCain was checking out her ass.
posted by Flunkie at 5:50 PM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

Palin's name and face are all over the front of every major news site, while coverage of the DNC has pretty much disappeared.

BTW -- press coverage of the GOP convention this weekend (and next week) will likely have to compete with that of hurricane Gustav. A "split-screen" convention?

On Third Anniversary Of Katrina, Officials Aren’t Confident New Orleans’ Levees Can ‘Handle’ Gustav.
posted by ericb at 5:51 PM on August 29, 2008

Is there any other reason to test if you would never consider abortion?

Many women opt for the test so that they can prepare to care for a child with special needs. In addition, the "triple screen" test can also help to detect spina bifida, which may require surgery on the fetus while it's still in the womb.
posted by jrossi4r at 5:52 PM on August 29, 2008

Despite this anti-choice nut managing to push Obama off the front page, let us hold our heads high. We'll go dancing, everything will be all right.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:58 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

From the WP:
"Palin's political career began a decade later when she was elected to the Wasilla City Council and, four years after that, in 1996, she won the mayorship -- knocking off the incumbent by just a handful of votes."

Funny; I think there were only a handful of votes in total.
posted by kaibutsu at 5:59 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

A moment ago, I just saw video of her speech today. As she was talking, it genuinely looked like McCain was checking out her ass, or something like that.

Maybe he was looking at that lump on her back.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:59 PM on August 29, 2008

IIRC the same screening picks up things like Trisome 18, which causes fatal deformities, and which would in most cases lead to an abortion (the exception being die-hard pro-lifers).

(As I've mentioned elsewhere we had a risk factor for this, leading to an amnio which thankfully turned out negative, but it meant an extremely stressful time for us and some Googling that I really wish I hadn't done. )
posted by Artw at 5:59 PM on August 29, 2008

I keep seeing the video of this on the newsesque show that I'm watching. Now I'm thinking that there must have been a script on the lectern in front of her, and he must have been looking down at it, not at her ass.

She didn't seem to ever look down to the lectern, though.

But it has to be something like that. Doesn't it?

I mean, it was so blatant, and he did it so often.
posted by Flunkie at 6:07 PM on August 29, 2008

McCain has a history of having affairs with women that he works with, how will his wife feel about him working long hours with a younger, more attractive, more powerful woman? Having basically bought him his political career with her family money, how will she feel about him elevating a younger, more attractive woman to work along side him as an equal? I bet there are going to be some awkward conversations in the white house.

How long will it take John McCain to cheat on his wife again? He cheated on his first wife pretty much the first time that he met Cindy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npPJAN5MvJk

Notice that he's staring at her ass the whole time she's talking and what's he doing with his wedding ring? I bet he can't wait to take it off.

When does McCain's lechery become a campaign issue? He's willing to risk the country's future on a beauty queen, just like he wrecked his first marriage for a beauty queen.
posted by empath at 6:16 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin has more executive governmental experience than Obama and Biden combined.
They're already saying that Palin is "more experienced" than Obama, because it's executive experience

Thank goodness Abraham Lincoln had those terms as Governor of Illinois to steel him for the work that lay ahead.
posted by lukemeister at 6:19 PM on August 29, 2008

It took me three quarters of the thread to realize that Feminists for Life meant, you know, anti-choice, rather than Feminists Por Vida, Feminists for LYFE.

Feminist gangsters.
posted by sugarfish at 6:20 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

McCain has a history of having affairs with women that he works with, how will his wife feel about him working long hours with a younger, more attractive, more powerful woman?

Right, because obviously Palin has no agency in that hypothetical. Or perhaps it's just assumed that she'd be *shudder* attracted to his power, like some pretty Alaskan Anakin Skywalker?!?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 6:24 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

I executively wouldn't hit it
posted by uandt at 6:25 PM on August 29, 2008

good point! i'm just throwin' stuff up the flagpole to see what sticks. I'm sure someone will come up with a better variation of that before long, though.
posted by empath at 6:27 PM on August 29, 2008

He is an adulterer and a lech, though.
posted by empath at 6:28 PM on August 29, 2008

STOP MAKING ME PICTURE JOHN MCCAIN GETTING FREAKY.
posted by ColdChef at 6:33 PM on August 29, 2008 [6 favorites]

As rokusan pointed out about 400 comments ago: McCain Taps Alaska Gov. Palin

(Nothing in the article, just the title of course...)
posted by XMLicious at 6:35 PM on August 29, 2008

hydrophonic, quoting someone else: "Call your local OB department and ask what to do if you think that your water has broken. You’ll be advised to seek an immediate hands-on examination by an obstetrician. The baby will be placed on a monitor to make sure it’s OK."

Eh? No, that's not true. You've got 24 hours to get the kid out after the water breaks before anyone panics, unless there's something else going on. Monitors are standard with hospital births -- they're not indicative of things going pear-shaped.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:41 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

onlyconnect: Re: gov'r of Alaska. First of all, Alaska is an incredibly homogeneous state -- overwhelmingly white, mostly male, one-party Republican rule -- and that pushes poll numbers toward the extremes. Thus, her approval ratings have to be taken with a grain of salt; governors like Schweitzer, Napolitano, and Sebelius who maintain very high approval ratings while governing as a minority-party governor are the ones whose high approval ratings are truly remarkable. Also, the article you link to is more than a year out of date. While Palin indeed had a 90%+ approval rating early this year, her ethics scandal and her controversial pipeline plan have combined to send her poll numbers into freefall the past months. The latest Rasmussen (8/29/08) pegs her at 67% -- a 25% drop in months, faster than even Bush's approval rating loss and more importantly, a continuous drop with no sign of bottoming out, let alone reversing. Had she not been picked for VP, it's quite likely her approval would've continue to fall below 50% since both of her scandals are still are ongoing, and a number of other Alaskan officials (most notably Sen. Stevens) are also suffering scandals of their own, dropping Republican party support across the board. (This is why Obama has been making a serious play for Alaska recently -- the last six polls have McCain leading by just an average of 5.9 points, an unheard of margin in such a solidly red state.) The timing of her precipitous fall in popularity was one major factor in her being written off as a viable VP candidate months ago.

Another issue: executive experience as gov'r of Alaska. Alaska has a statewide population of just two-thirds of a million people; New York City has a population of more than ten times that just by itself. Alaska's tax code and bureaucracy is greatly simplified by, again, the dominance of just a few industries (again, look at their income tax system as an example). Titles like "governor" and "mayor" aside, there's no doubt that candidates like "merely mayor" Guiliani have far more executive experience from an financial, organizational, and human-resources perspective, nevermind other governors like Romney and Pawlenty. If you're saying that Palin was picked because of her governorship of Alaska gives her an executive edge over the other contenders, I submit that you're nuts -- and I don't think you're hinging it all on her governorship. On that front, there are tons of stronger mayors, governors, CEOs, you name it with stronger executive records.

Her reputation as a reformer? Her ethics scandal, plummeting popularity, and Alaska's growing notoriety as a haven of Republican corruption have severely undermined that. It was thought to be too risky to tap her while some new development in Alaska could severely undermine the ticket; there are plenty of other GOP reformers like Jindal, DeMint, etc. if McCain were interested in a purely reform angle.

In fact that's what it boils down to. No matter what you're looking for in terms of resume and experience, there are better candidates. Virtually all the alternatives have a better executive resume, and most are stronger in various other areas as well. In fact, just looking at the women thought to be among the finalists: Fiorina has a far superior executive/economic/Washington-outsider background as a female Romney alternative, and Hutchinson is much stronger from a political qualifications and social issues perspective if McCain's primary goal were to shore up evangelical support. And that's ignoring the other female contenders like Dole that were eliminated early on alongside Palin. Looking at male contenders included, and we're talking about well over a dozen, probably two dozen more names here, and many of them do a better job of "covering all the bases" on the resume/experience question than Palin. In short, Palin was not chosen simply based on her resume and experiences.

"Not a single one of these qualities or accomplishments are dependant on her age, gender, or photogenic appearance, but perhaps they are all things that you think it is appropriate to scoff at. But go ahead and continue to believe that McCain picked her because she is a pretty, pretty princess. [...] You're still not getting it."

No, you're still not getting it. Palin isn't being dismissed just because she's a pretty, pretty princess; she's being dismissed because she was widely thought to have already been eliminated looking at purely the "paper qualifications", and given all the other choices at McCain's disposal, the only plausible reason remaining excludes resume and experience as the determining factors. Even though she checks all the necessary boxes -- a minimum of executive experience, pro-life, non-establishment, etc. -- just like many other more qualified candidates, the overwhelming consensus among those criticizing the choice is that she was chosen because she was "New and Different" as a counter to Obama's "New and Different." And in this case the derision comes from New and Different being -- in this case -- rather blatantly being young, female, and photogenic. I'm not scoffing at her for being a "pretty, pretty princess." If you look at my actual words, I was scoffing at what was "instrumental to her selection" -- that is to say, the cynicism behind the McCain camp's choice that this was more important than purely the various executive, reformer, outsider, social issues, etc criteria, when weighed against the other contenders.

You're tilting at conjured windmills constructed by strawmen here. I'm trying to describe why this was such a surprise pick, to choose someone widely considered eliminated months ago and the McCain camp's rationale for doing so when compared against the remaining field (if you don't believe me, search the news archives at various sites following the veepstakes and follow the evolution of names and the pros and cons being weighed for months; there's a reason why everyone thought it was down to a handful like Romney and Pawlenty this past weekend). You're acting as if I were taking an opportunistic jab at her as unqualified because she's merely a "pretty, pretty princess", and frankly that's a myopic and knee-jerk assessment. This is the last, surprising chapter of a process that's gone on for months, and you can't really describe why Palin is a surprise pick without looking at the timeline and the reasons behind her being listed, being dropped from mentioning, and now her sudden resurfacing in the Republican veepstakes.

Or you can believe that Palin was chosen because her record as a reformer was so strong, her governorship experience so remarkable, and her social credentials so morally pack-leading that it's actually a complete coincidence that she happens to be a "pretty, pretty princess." Personally, I think that's a flat-out wrong assessment. And it's not just me: while the GOP-win-go-win and the social conservative (NO RIDGE/LIEBERMAN/ROMNEY) sites are stoked and are falling in line, if you look at -- purely on the conservative sites -- the politics-as-sports horserace followers, the indy-conservative curmudgeons, the small-government libertarian-leaners, and the paleocon/old-school fiscal/isolationist Republican communities and commentators, you'll find the same criticism but in much harsher terms: "gender pandering", "tokenism", "trophy veep", and many similar assessments, laid out in arguments with far more data and more links. This isn't concern trolling to sink the Republican ticket or Palin-bashing for being a woman: this is about tracking and making sense of the radically altered trajectory of a story that has been closely followed for months. I think we'd all be interested in hearing a different, more plausible take from you -- but the argument that Palin won the pick based on just her resume and experience has far too many refutations. Setting aside the yay-GOP/yay-pro-life reactions, the aggregate reactions being tracked on both sides -- like on Kos/RedState and pundits like Ambinder/Halpern/etc -- have made the case I mentioned above pretty consistently and strongly.

And by the way, there's no double standard here when it comes to Obama. Obama's main selling pitch wasn't his resume -- he was emphasizing his judgment, his ability to lead through inspiration, his ability to turn out voters, his fund-raising, his infrastructure-building and managing the best-run campaign this primary season, etc. Bill Clinton alluded to this explicitly when he says Obama has gotten "stronger" as a candidate through the campaign. Obama been building all this since last January (and before then) to supplement the fact that his resume is thinner than most other Democratic candidates. Palin on the other hand has 60 days after the convention to make that case for herself, while acting as a newly-formed appendage shoehorned into an existing campaign framework. It's all somewhat farcical prima facie. That's why the resume and experience question for a veep is so crucial, because she won't be given the lengthy chance to prove herself as Obama has been for almost two years now. I've been seeing Palin being labeled as "Geraldine Quayle" from some on both the right and left; it'll be interesting to see if the charge sticks.

spiderwire: Clinton's statement on Palin: [...] Not exactly what DaShiv was predicting, I think.

It's the same echo of the faint praise McCain has been giving Obama for his historic nomination. After the GOP convention the campaign starts in earnest, and I'll be shocked if Sen. Clinton doesn't make some substantive attacks against the McCain/Palin ticket between now and November, especially on the issues of choice and health care. The real questions are how and how hard, because she's not going to just phone this one in. There are simply too many people watching her, especially after the Palin pick.
posted by DaShiv at 6:42 PM on August 29, 2008 [68 favorites]

I'm not a woman, though I enjoy doing a lot of things women do, but I'm curious as to whether this will, over time, be seen more as an insult to their sex. The Republicans are basically saying that yeah, when backed into a corner they'll go as far as putting a woman on the ticket, but only in second place. You can't take seriously that they appreciate her qualifications considering this is the first time they have been considered worth mention. Her name was never discussed for presidential nomination, though the qualifications are ostensibly the same. And then they're playing up the motherhood/Down's syndrome thing to draw in the Lifetime-movie-of-the-week crowd. I wouldn't say that this is how Republicans in general view women, but they shouldn't go as far as to brag that how they have gone about this is in any way complimentary.
posted by troybob at 6:42 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

You know, reading all the comments in regards to abortion, it seems very few ever address the simple pragmatic aspects of abortion being legal. In countries where abortion is illegal, the number of abortions per capita is not any less than in those countries where it is legal. What changes when it goes from legal to illegal is the number of *unsafe* abortions increases, while the number of abortions themselves remains more or less the same. In other words, when abortion is a crime the number of dead teenagers increases. That's it. So being 'pro-life' is an irony until itself, in that the goal of people who use that term to describe themselves, if ever (re)fulfilled, would result in an increased number of deaths -- of actual people, not clumps of fetal tissue. To be pragmatically accurate, the term should be something like 'pro-more-dead-young-people-unnecessarily'.
posted by jamstigator at 6:42 PM on August 29, 2008 [28 favorites]

...'unto itself'. I suck tonight. Pass the bong. ;)
posted by jamstigator at 6:46 PM on August 29, 2008

Let's see what happens. I think this is a very stupid pick. Once the bloom is off and her very serious ethical problems, total lack of foreign policy opinions (not experience, opinions) and the basely insulting nature of the pick are well aired, I think she'll live on in history as a punchline.

I'd lay money on it.
posted by Bookhouse at 6:50 PM on August 29, 2008

Imagine this scenario:

Clinton edges out Obama in a close fought primary race, leaving african americans bitter and dejected. McCain, seeing an opportunity to placate his Christianist base and to draw in alienated blacks nominates:

Alan Keyes.

Does anybody think black people would fall for that? Why would women democrats fall for this bamboozle?
posted by empath at 6:50 PM on August 29, 2008 [6 favorites]

"Let's suppose that that phone rings at 3am in the morning and either Joe Biden or Sarah Palin has to answer it. You tell me," continued Cafferty. "After this pick, ask yourself again who has the better judgment, John McCain or Barack Obama."
posted by lukemeister at 6:54 PM on August 29, 2008 [6 favorites]

This certainly puts the abortion issue back in play, which should boil away the mushy middle and leave us the starkly split electorate we've had in recent past.

Are today's younger people, ie. <4>really anti-choice? I should think most Americans are actually pretty much "meh" about the issue: no one actually wants abortion to be used, but most everyone pretty much understands it's a necessary option.

A vehemently vocal anti-choice candidate would, I should think, be a liability.

That, or the USA is way more bass-ackwards than I thought.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:05 PM on August 29, 2008

Does anybody think black people would fall for that? Why would women democrats fall for this bamboozle?

Well, hang on, meow. Alan Keyes is recognizably batshitinsane. Palin, for whatever faults she may have, so far has not exhibited anything akin to Alan Keyes.
posted by cavalier at 7:08 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Am I too late to the thread to discuss the incredibly odd rumor that the new kid may not be hers at all, but her daughter's?
posted by The Bellman at 7:08 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

That, or the USA is way more bass-ackwards than I thought.

Not just more ass-backwards than you think, but more ass-backwards than you can imagine.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 7:10 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

how will his wife feel about him working long hours with a younger, more attractive, more powerful woman?

Seriously, when's the last time a president actually worked long hours with a veep? The current administration doesn't count seeing as this President works for, not with, the Vice-President. Vice-Presidents exist to attend foreign state funerals and break ties in the Senate, anything over and above that only occurs in exceptional circumstances.
posted by MikeMc at 7:11 PM on August 29, 2008

"Here under protest is mooseburgers." -Orson Wells
posted by moonbird at 7:13 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

"She may be pretty. She may be stupid. The two are NOT connected."

No, but it does strongly correlate with being shallow. Which doesn't correlate well with governing.
posted by klangklangston at 7:14 PM on August 29, 2008

You know, it's funny. Here is where I first saw the Plin news,and it didn't even occur to me to check the mainstream media's reaction. I looked here, and on reddit and fark and dailykos, and on a few other blogs.

One of my hopes for this election is that it turns out there is a great, previously-unacknowledged citizenry of internet-connected wonks who get off their asses and vote for common sense. I mean, come on people, Palin is a damned creationist! Even the Pope doesn't believe that shit any more. How vastly ignorant is she?
posted by five fresh fish at 7:14 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

The Bellman: "Am I too late to the thread to discuss the incredibly odd rumor that the new kid may not be hers at all, but her daughter's?"

Not at all. What an excellent rumor.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:15 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

I confess, I have been pondering Harriet Miers for much of today.

Palin is used to knock Obama out of the headlines. She campaigns for a couple of weeks, gets the base worked up about pro-life issues, and then realizes that the campaign is too hard on her family and regretfully drops out to return to Alaska. McCain then picks Romney or some other more liberal VP with tons of experience and finishes the campaign with an added "feel bad for the Republicans because they lost their VP" boost.

/tinfoil
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:16 PM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

The Post's James Grimaldi got an exclusive interview with Walter Monegan, the canned Alaska Public Safety Commissioner at the center of Palin trooper-gate scandal. And he basically says Palin is lying in her assertion that while some of her aides contacting Monegan about firing her brother-in-law, that she herself did not.

How could the republicans miss this? It may be minor, it may not, but in the echo chamber of presidential politics even the most minor thing can get blown way out of proportion, just look at Obama's "land deal" with Rezko, a tiny issue that wouldn't even merit a senate ethics inquiry is showing up in T.V. ads.

Just chiming in here with those who said that abortion will be one of the central themes of this election -- except that it will probably be embedded into a broader theme. Something like 'family values' or 'American values'.

This is bad news for Obama: He will try to tip-toe around the issue, giving non-committal statements, whereas the other camp will just state their opinion straightforwardly. Straight-talk indeed. -- sour cream

Are you kidding? Did you actually watch the democratic convention? Democrats talk constantly about the need to protect Roe, about how the republicans are going to take it away, etc. Meanwhile the republicans tiptoe around it, talking about 'judicial appointments' and 'strict constructionists' when what they mean is they'll nominate judges who will overturn Roe v. Wade

Anyway, poll after poll shows that most Americans favor legalized abortion. It isn't a winning issue for the republicans, but it helps to motivate their base.
posted by delmoi at 7:17 PM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

You, yourself, say that she is participating in a system that is anti-feminist and that itself is worthy of scorn. So, you, as a feminist feel that beauty pageants are awful. Great. Don't participate in them! It doesn't strike me as very "feminist" to me to hear the message "You can be pretty, or you can be smart, but you can't be both!"

Look, all I'm trying to say at the end of the day is that she can do whatever the heck she wants to, but I don't feel she represents me if she does something I disagree with. Maybe if someone is really anti-drugs they won't vote for a person who has done drugs to represent them, even if that doesn't have a lot to do with running a country. That's their prerogative.

I don't think that's such a novel point. And I think you've been unfairly characterizing my argument as a series of strawmen re: what I feel about attractive people, who can be pretty, who can wear makeup.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 7:18 PM on August 29, 2008

(and really, the scare quotes around feminist were unnecessary to say the least.)
posted by Solon and Thanks at 7:20 PM on August 29, 2008

I'm not a woman, though I enjoy doing a lot of things women do, but I'm curious as to whether this will, over time, be seen more as an insult to their sex.

I am a woman, I voted for Hillary on Super Tuesday, I had a grudging respect for the more centrist, "party maverick" McCain during the 2000 race--and let me tell you, Palin excites me and makes me feel all warm and proud inside the way the African American community *hearts* Alan Keyes during his presidential bids.

In this particular race, at this particular moment in time, I wouldn't jump party lines for anything, just like I held my nose and voted for Kerry in 2004. But I would have had much more respect for McCain--and less fear about a McCain ticket winning the Oval Office--if he had chosen Kay Bailey Hutchinson, Mitt Romney, anyone else. You can't pander to me like that ("but she's got boobs and a uterus! what more do you broads want?"). I have a hard time believing that even the most embittered PUMA would sign off on someone even further right than McCain on women's issues, gay rights, and environmental concerns, just because she's a chick.

Please.
posted by availablelight at 7:21 PM on August 29, 2008 [7 favorites]

She's a model Republican feminist: Make the most of yourself by selling yourself however you can, then do whatever you want - buy houses, humvees, hookers, blow and lawyers, make babies, wars, gorgeous new McMansions with granite, whatever you like. The world is your oyster and consequences are for someone else, someone who'll be eating your dust come the Rapture.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 7:22 PM on August 29, 2008 [16 favorites]

The thing about the pregnancy is very weird and kind of plausible. I've seen it on some dkos diaries and newsgroups, but nothing legit yet. It does seem weird that at 7 months, she wasn't showing at all, and that when she did have the kid, her water broke at a conference and she flew all the way back to alaska to deliver it?

If her daughter really did miss all that school from 'mono' at the same time, it's quite a plausible scenario to me. Are there any pictures of a pregnant Palin from this time period? I found a pic of her at 7 months, where she doesn't look slightly pregnant.

Random person from google image search for 7 months pregnant.

Sarah Palin, supposedly 7 months pregnant.
posted by empath at 7:23 PM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

All right, this rumor re: covering up for her pregnant daughter is discussed here among other places. It is, of course, a rumor and there aren't really any non-bulletin board sources that suggest that it might be true.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:23 PM on August 29, 2008

Have the GOP backroom power brokers thought this through? I wish no poor health to McCain, but what if there's a William Henry Harrison situation and McCain after a month in office checks out?

Back in 2000, people on both sides of the aisle that questioned Bush's qualifications said relax, Dick Cheney will be around to counsel. Jokes aside about Cheney being a puppet master, Cheney has made the office of the VP quite powerful (Gore started it, before that VPs waited around for the president to die, attended second tier country's state funerals, coronations and other shit the president didn't want or have time to do). So if McCain checks out, who will Palin go to for counsel? A yet-to-be-named member of the cabinet? Or will Cheney still be around from an undisclosed location. I'm not saying that Palin isn't intelligent and able to think on her feet, but running the country is a hell of a lot different than running a state with 600K people. A state where the second largest private employer is Safeway. Not trying to knock Alaska but really?

I really thought the bombshell McCain was going to drop today was saying Condi Rice was getting the nod. She has credentials. She's ready for the 3am call (and gets it more often that W does already). Or even Kay Bailey Hutchison (a complete hack, but still way more qualified). If McCain and the strategy guys wanted a woman to "diversify" and show the the GOP is down with change too, there are thousands of more qualified women around. All of them would tow the GOP line. And of course, it doesn't even have to be a woman!

John McCain has lost his mind! He is saying that of all 300+ million of us, he is the qualified to run the country. And his first big decision is saying Sarah Palin is his VP? Really?
posted by birdherder at 7:35 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Uhm, wtf is a PUMA, please?
"Party Unity, My Ass!" It refers to Hillary supporters who don't want to support Obama because they hold a grudge about how Hillary was treated.
No. It refers to a Republican-funded disinformation campaign.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:36 PM on August 29, 2008 [11 favorites]

you can believe that Palin was chosen because her record as a reformer was so strong

apparently, according to brooks' people fwiw, she was picked because:

what he saw when he looked at her, according to the people I spoke to, is someone who fights the same fights I fight. The first gateway sort of fight that he thought they have in common was the bridge to nowhere. He's been talking about that for years. She's the one who killed it...

The second thing he liked was she took on the Republican Party. She had a corrupt Republican Party. It was her own party. She took it on in a very risky way. McCain sort of sometimes sees himself in that role, Jack Abramoff.

And the third thing was the fight she had with the oil companies over the pipeline, which was a big fight. And he saw her -- he goes after Boeing, she goes after the oil companies.

So he said, "This is someone who's like me." I mean, I'm sure he appreciated that she's a woman and all the differences. But the essential thing was a reformer like me, even though he doesn't know her that well.

a minimum of executive experience

in the other segment on the newshour, i thought this was kind of telling:

"The other thing you have to remember is Alaska is in a period of affluence now. The state treasury is filled with money. The high oil prices the rest of the country are paying has made the rest of us up here -- given us a full treasury, and now we don't have to worry about taxing.

"We can spend money on people and just -- we don't have to make the tough choices that you have to make where you live." -- Michael Carey, host of a weekly political program for Alaska Public Television and a columnist for the Anchorage Daily News

in part because of her windfall profits tax on oil companies & support for drilling :P altho...

and btw:

JUDY WOODRUFF: Well, how does she get along with state legislators?

[Alaska State Representative (D)] LINDSEY HOLMES: Well, I think it depends on the state legislator. There's been a bit of a hands-off approach, I would have to say. It's not...

JUDY WOODRUFF: A hands-off approach on whose...

LINDSEY HOLMES: To the legislature, from the governor's office to the legislature. There are definitely people in the legislature she just doesn't get along with at all.

JUDY WOODRUFF: Are they all Democrats?

LINDSEY HOLMES: No, actually, they're mostly Republicans, a lot of Republicans, some Democrats. It kind of depends on the issue. There have been some arguments over handling of things like budget vetoes without communicating them ahead of time to the legislature, just a lack of communication, I think, on a lot of things that we've been working on.

cheers!
posted by kliuless at 7:40 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Sarah Palin, supposedly 7 months pregnant.

It would help if you linked to the article where the photo appeared.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:41 PM on August 29, 2008

This photo is undated, but might have fed some of the rumors.

Although:

Many teen aged girls have little "pooches" on otherwise slim bodies, and all sorts of women carry differently when pregnant (very thin women, very tall women, and very overweight women can even have babies without realizing they're pregnant until the actual delivery pains).
posted by availablelight at 7:41 PM on August 29, 2008

Her much-blogged-about "whiner" comment, captured here on video, happened the day before she announced she was 7 months pregnant. I can see why the reporter was surprised to later learn the news.
posted by mothershock at 7:55 PM on August 29, 2008

Um, and it's not about me "feeling good". If you've got a good argument for why Clinton won't campaign harder, say so. I'm not making stuff up to post here in order to "feel good".

And what was the good argument that Hilary would campaign harder? That Palin is a republican?
posted by JohnnyGunn at 7:55 PM on August 29, 2008

That is a deliciously nasty rumor and a correspondingly terrific rationalization. Like someone posted above, the next few months are going to be interesting!
posted by sfts2 at 7:57 PM on August 29, 2008

Huh. I thought birth certificates were public records, but I was wrong. In Alaska, there's a hundred-year wait.
posted by Bookhouse at 7:58 PM on August 29, 2008

And what was the good argument that Hilary would campaign harder? That Palin is a republican?

DaShiv, upthread, gave quite a good rundown I think.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 8:03 PM on August 29, 2008

While dashiv is verbose, I don't think he's particularly intelligent on this. Anyone can go on blah blah blah without really saying anything. Just watch cable news some time.

I've been following this and have been perplexed at the choice. The best answer I've heard for her selection is that she represents a next generation of conservative that's the next step from the Reagan Republican. Ever so slightly more progressive on various issues, but supposedly still fiscally and socially conservative. It's a symbolic transition from McCain as an old-school (though he supposedly never was) conservative.

I think the Republican ticket looks a bit confused right now, and I imagine they'll try to focus themselves at their convention. They do have their work cut out for them, but the choice was intelligent as far as taking the news wind out of the sail of the democrats. Thing is 38 million people watched Obama's speech on TV, and who knows how many online. It's available to watch anytime anyone wants. I don't see McCain matching the rhetoric or the presentation of Obama, and they'll have to fall back on their perky "hockey mom" who is under investigation. Her choice is an incredible long shot, but I think if Obama's organization maintains their discipline, it'll end up being a negative. I expect to see Palin fade to obscurity after this election cycle.
posted by Eekacat at 8:03 PM on August 29, 2008

I was a little surprised to see, right over McCain's shoulder when he made the announcement about Palin, was Geoff Davis, the Kentucky congressman who called Obama "boy" just a few months ago. Was that a whistle only dogs can hear?
posted by tizzie at 8:10 PM on August 29, 2008

And he saw her -- he goes after Boeing, she goes after the oil companies.

No, he goes after Boeing because all his campaign advisors used to lobby for Lockheed, EADS, and McDonnell-Douglas.

This election is such a joke.
posted by spiderwire at 8:11 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

I have been pondering Harriet Miers

fallows, fwiw, thinks she's more clarence thomas :P "an unbelievably obvious but potentially effective attempt to jiu-jitsu the standard identity politics of the moment in a way that flummoxes the Democrats," but citing brooks again, i'll entertain the idea that it's a genuine effort to take the party in a new direction:

she is an under-45 Republican. That means she's unwedded to Reaganism. She's Evangelical, but she's pretty progressive on gay and lesbian issues. She's for drilling in ANWR, but she talks about global warming quite a lot.

She's got different categories in her head than, I think, the older conservatives who are pretty much down the line ideologically.

that's the hope anyway!
posted by kliuless at 8:11 PM on August 29, 2008

Google reveals that I am not alone in thinking that McCain was checking out her ass.

What scares me is the sneaking suspicion that McCain was "thinking with his dick" when he made his vice presidential pick.
posted by jonp72 at 8:11 PM on August 29, 2008

Well I think that for now the rumor about it being her daughter's kid is confined to the truly insane lefty sources, but if it does turn out to be the real thing it's going to be a lot more interesting than her flip-flop on the Bridge to Nowhere.
posted by The Bellman at 8:22 PM on August 29, 2008

This election is such a joke.

They all are, sadly.
posted by a3matrix at 8:26 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

ColdChef: "STOP MAKING ME PICTURE JOHN MCCAIN GETTING FREAKY."

Why? Sex sells.
posted by Rhaomi at 8:27 PM on August 29, 2008

I told myself I wouldn't post on this thread, but I do think I should point out that the incidence of Down syndrome in kids of teen moms is really low, which argues against the crazy rumor.
posted by escabeche at 8:33 PM on August 29, 2008

Once the dwarfs accepted an easy path. Discovering it copied, a spew of hypocrisy enveloped the spheroid, great inconsequential masses paddled against the current.

Same as it ever was.
posted by Mblue at 8:38 PM on August 29, 2008

All this "what if she gets preggers?" talk sounds like some serious false flag bullshit to me.

I don't know, considering her personal history (and not just the case of any woman in office having any baby, ever) I would really question her decision to have another child.

If it were me? I'd consider that at 44 nature (or God, etc) has already given me a big fucking clue-by-four that I'm too old to have any more children, due to the lamentable but completely predictable trisomy 21 issue with the most recent child. I'd consider that with 5 other children requiring their allotted attention from me, and the youngest being a Downs baby requiring even more than a normal baby would, that a sixth child would necessarily cut into that already-limited mom time that they get, and that's not really fair to them. And I'd consider that elected office, *especially* something at the highest national level being an incredibly demanding career, that I'd be stretched too thin and struggle to give both my job and my family the attention that they deserve (yes it's a difficult balance with 5 but I think a 6th would take even more time away from work).

Personally I'd hope that at the highest levels women would have their childbearing years behind them, at least. There are just too many complications - how would she be perceived by other world leaders? What if she went into labor at an inopportune time? What about the complication of trying to make everyone understand her breastfeeding for two years (what every kid deserves, at the least, imho)? That's an uphill battle right there. In today's politics it is just a bridge too far, I'm afraid. There are too many traditionally-minded people who will think she should be at home, and that will detract from her electability and effectiveness.

You don't need to know the sex of your child (and I'd hope no-one out there is getting abortions based on the sex of their foetus) but it's something people like to find out. Now that the technology exists, why not find out about genetic conditions your child will have as well?

Unfortunately in other places in the world people abort female fetuses (solely because they are female) in vast numbers, I'm afraid. Personally I think keeping it a surprise is more fun, which is something I am glad I did with my kid.

And the genetic testing? It can cause miscarriage. It is a not-insignificant risk. "Your baby was perfectly healthy. Sorry that you lost it due to a complication from the amnio." It's a nightmare scenario to be sure but the risk is real, and lots of people won't chance it unless they have a serious reason to suspect abnormality. And other types of tests which may be less risky can have a high false-positive rate which only causes extreme worry about something that is likely to be just fine.
posted by marble at 8:39 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

One should mention that The Daily Show has done a kick-ass job of reporting on the Convention and have made so much fun of Obama that all Republicans should be watching. "Every time Obama speaks, an angel has an orgasm." They're ripping on him.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:39 PM on August 29, 2008

five fresh fish, I totally forgot to mention that! Thursday's show in particular was excellent. The segment on Biden's speech was particularly good. I think a democratic president would be a godsend for their comedy, though some people suggest otherwise.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 8:44 PM on August 29, 2008

I'm going to steal from Joe Conason, who steals from a prominent conservative in this piece:

Looking back on the Ferraro nomination, another well-known conservative wrote: "I believe that someday we are going to have a woman president, possibly during my life, and I've often thought the best way to pave the way for this was to first nominate and elect a woman as vice-president. But I think Mondale made a serious mistake when he picked Geraldine Ferraro as his running mate. In my view, he guessed wrong in deciding to take a congresswoman that almost nobody had ever heard of and try to put her in line for the presidency ... I don't know who among the Democrats might have been a better choice, but it was obvious Mondale picked Geraldine Ferraro simply because he believed there was a 'gender gap' where I was concerned and she was a woman."

Those are the words of Ronald Reagan in his 1991 memoir, "An American Life," pouring scorn on the nomination of a woman who had served six years in Congress working on foreign policy issues. In retrospect, he had a point. Only this Palin gambit could make the Ferraro mistake look responsible and wise.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 8:44 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

five fresh fish: "One should mention that The Daily Show has done a kick-ass job of reporting on the Convention and have made so much fun of Obama that all Republicans should be watching. "Every time Obama speaks, an angel has an orgasm." They're ripping on him."

Oh, absolutely. Here's the clip, for anyone who missed it.
posted by Rhaomi at 8:45 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

At 820 comments, I'm clearly late to the game here, but, you know.

I was at the rally this morning in Dayton when the announcement was made - begrudgingly, because I'm probably going to vote for Obama, but my mom wanted me to go, and it's half a mile from where I live, so, I went. And now I'm glad I did.

I really do think, despite her lack of experience, it'll help McCain. I'll tell you that in her speech she came off as incredibly capable and strong, but also very down-to-earth and genuine at the same time. She was immediately likeable in both personality and the way they described her life, and I really think that's what McCain needs right now.

My mom and at least 3 of my friends came away saying "Wow, I really like her! Wow, they've definetely got my vote!" Of course my data points don't prove anything, but all the conservative-leaning people I know (and I know a bunch) definetely think Obama is the essence of evil, and would probably vote for Mccain, except that they're not convinced he's in touch with the needs and wants of America at large, because he's 72, etc. Now that's he's picked a woman that they "really like", they'll definetely vote for him.

The bottom line is that the bulk of America, especially the bulk of conservative America, isn't going to vote for who they're going to vote for because they look long and hard at voting records and experience - they're going to say "Wow, I really like her! She's got 5 kids! Her son's in the military!" and that will be the end of it.

All in all I still don't think it will be enough to push McCain ahead of Obama in November. But I do think it was a smart decision on his part. The crowd went nuts for her this morning.
posted by Quidam at 8:54 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

Personally I'd hope that at the highest levels women would have their childbearing years behind them, at least. There are just too many complications - how would she be perceived by other world leaders? What if she went into labor at an inopportune time? What about the complication of trying to make everyone understand her breastfeeding for two years (what every kid deserves, at the least, imho)? That's an uphill battle right there. In today's politics it is just a bridge too far, I'm afraid. There are too many traditionally-minded people who will think she should be at home, and that will detract from her electability and effectiveness.

Regarding parenting, I don't see how that would be any different than what a male VP with a child-bearing wife would have to go through - the amount of care involved, the time and energy of parenting so many kids. Should we object to any parent of a child with Down's Syndrome, a parent with multiple children, or both, from holding public office, or just the mothers? I also don't see how the physical aspects of pregnancy themselves would interfere with carrying out the duties of the office of the vice presidency.

Also, the same "traditional-minded" people who would object to a woman in the work place are the same people who will probably be able to overlook her not abiding her wifely place in the household if it means keeping Obama out of the White House.

For these reasons, and because I doubt a party that wants to retain women voters is going to try any strategy that involves Pailn's reproductive system, I seriously doubt there's going to be much of this coming from the Democratic side.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:56 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

I too would hope that our highest elected officials were pretty much past their child bearing years, male or female. You want someone who has a bit more time to devote.
posted by gjc at 8:59 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

A great line:

We can't take four more years of this.

If McCain lives, it's going to be four more years of this. If McCain dies, the powers behind the administration will manipulate the naïf into delivering the same. It's not even a coded message: it's plain as day. This is an election between what has been, and a shot at making things what they should be.

I don't think the nation can survive another four years of following the gang who have hijacked the Republican party. This is not the America the Americans want. This is not the America Americans deserve.

Hell, if you're Republican, you should be voting for Obama so that you can spend four years reclaiming your party and be able to run a candidate of your own choosing, who must surely be a better man than McCain.

frankly, I think this is the last chance you have for reclaiming your party. If McCain is really the best you got, then your next government will effectively be your last. It'll be a gang-operated office forever.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:06 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

This was a crazy and stupid pick but as we've seen for the past eight years, Americans love crazy and stupid.
posted by effwerd at 9:12 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

comments about her reproductive choices are just completely out of bounds, and ironic to boot, at least from liberals.

buuuut - i feel pretty superficial at the moment so i'll just echo illiad, above. dana perino was *hot* - and i must say, guiltily, that her repulsive prevaricating somehow made her hotter.

palin is an average, normal-looking white woman. she has good skin and teeth, and she wears her hair with confidence, but she's an average-looking person, just like everybody else walking down the street.
posted by facetious at 9:15 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Let's not do any creepy analysis of teenager's bodies looking for baby bumps, ok?
posted by garlic at 9:15 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

If McCain wins, Palin's going to have a hell of a time being both President and the nursing mother of a newborn. She'd have all my support were she to choose to be a good mother. At the same time, there is going to be one hell of a mess on her hands, a country crippled. And if she fails at managing that mess, Hilary will never be President. Hmmmm....
posted by five fresh fish at 9:16 PM on August 29, 2008

We had a similar situation in Canada a few years ago involving a woman named Belinda Stronach, a good-looking woman from a monied family who had nothing else going for her. She'd never even been able to finish university, and her career had consisted of holding a series of ill-defined jobs within her father's companies - it wasn't ever clear exactly what she had done. When asked in an interview to name one important decision she had made as director of the Magna Corporation she was unable to do so. Thank heavens, despite the heavy backing of a wealthy, successful and well-connected father she didn't get far. She became an MP, but when she ran for Conservative party leader she lost. Then she "crossed the floor" to become a member of the then in-power Liberal party in return for a Cabinet portfolio, but the Liberals proceeded to promptly lose the next election to the Conservatives. I didn't like it that Stephen Harper won, but damn that particular consequence was satisfying and hilarious for me at least.

A columnist for the Globe and Mail commented at the time that choosing a physically attractive yet grossly unqualified woman for important political positions like that of Cabinet minister is a slap in the face for qualified women everywhere, and I quite agree. I'd predict that Palin will fall flat on her face shortly, but there's another dimension to this that did not exist in the whole Belinda Stronach fiasco and that frightens me.

There are so MANY Americans who will vote for anyone who is pro-life, pro-creationism, will keep the queers in line, and looks like a good person with whom to have a beer (or in this case, a date). It just sickens me that anyone can be so unthinking and so irresponsible to use such incredibly bad criteria for making a vote. And I wouldn't care if we were talking about some banana or potato republic and the consequences could mainly rest on the voters' own heads, but we're talking about the most powerful country in the world. Haven't Americans had enough of idiots driving the elephant?
posted by orange swan at 9:17 PM on August 29, 2008 [12 favorites]

Governor Palin Visits troops.
posted by garlic at 9:19 PM on August 29, 2008

True, the salmon fishin' snow runnin' ex-beauty queen reformist conservative ardent pro-lifer whose water broke when performing her governmental duties was, I'm guessing, from Season Four or so, but I can't quite pin down the episode, which bothers me.

Anyway, Northern Exposure sucked once the Fleischman character left. There was just no tension anymore.
posted by darth_tedious at 9:25 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

.
posted by mazola at 9:28 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Anyway, Northern Exposure sucked once the Fleischman character left.

And that disc jockey who talkedtalkedtalkedtalkedtaaalked. Really don't miss that.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:30 PM on August 29, 2008

Lies, damn lies & statistics. "most popular governor", means: she has the highest approval (recognition) rating in her own state. That's Alaska, which is like a small town the size of Texas. I've met schoolteachers in Alaska who knew families from darn near every small village all over the state.

So... Please. If she was "the most popular governor in America", then there wouldn't be all these headlines saying "who?". Honestly, I couldn't even think of her name on the way home after we'd been talking about her @ work all day. Look away from the screen(s) in front of you right now. Say her name.

I'm in California. We have the most popular governor in the world.

Please.
posted by Lukenlogs at 9:34 PM on August 29, 2008

i'm beginning to wonder something - is it possible that palin got the nod because mccain asked several other people and they all said no?
posted by pyramid termite at 9:46 PM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

You called it. Gotta be.
posted by jettloe at 9:56 PM on August 29, 2008

Women have abortions when they have 'stupid sex' with men who won't use condoms.

Bullshit. Pregnancy does occur when birth control fails (I AM pro-choice).

Looks like a pretty naked attempt to go after the Ellen Jamesian Society vote

My favorite lines from The World According to Garp were:

My name is Ellen James. I am NOT an Ellen Jamesian.
posted by brujita at 9:56 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Worth repeating, IMO:

They call her husband, the reigning champion in the annual Iron Dog snowmachine race, First Dude.

Also, can we just talk about this picture of her office in Anchorage?
posted by Quidam at 10:00 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

MikeMc: If Palin is a "Young Earth" Creationist is she really that far from other Christians many, if not most, of whom believe the Bible is the Divine Word of God?

Response:
In a thread full of allegations of sexism, this has to be the most culturally ignorant thing said here so far. posted by mkultra at 12:02 PM on August 29 [5 favorites +]

Being culturally ignorant about religious stupidity is refreshing to me. I dismiss those who pretend to understand it, and especially those who deem it normal.
posted by Brian B. at 10:00 PM on August 29, 2008

Even without getting into the sexist notion of the younger woman being handed her position due to her attractiveness (and I scoff at any commentator who suggests with a straight face that Palin's resume and qualifications were more instrumental to her selection than the demographic appeal stemming largely from her age, gender, and photogenic appearance)

Can you retire this canard already? It's about as relevant as pointing out that Senator Clinton's "resume and qualifications were more instrumental" to her professional career than the fact that she was married for years to the governor of a corrupt Southern state who became President. Maybe both points are true, but, really, we're going to try to separate objective qualifications and resume points from looks or personal relations now? I mean, do you think that you earned all the favorites to these posts and got none of them because you happen to take great pictures?
posted by Slap Factory at 10:01 PM on August 29, 2008

She's for drilling in ANWR, but she talks about global warming quite a lot.

This is like implying that Strom Thurmond was a stalwart civil rights activist because he spoke about black people a lot.
posted by Flunkie at 10:05 PM on August 29, 2008 [14 favorites]

I mean, do you think that you earned all the favorites to these posts and got none of them because you happen to take great pictures?

note: Help maintain a healthy, respectful discussion by focusing comments on the issues, topics, and facts at hand—not at other members of the site.
posted by ColdChef at 10:06 PM on August 29, 2008

Palin has more executive governmental experience than Obama and Biden combined.
posted by Jahaza

Hang on, now. If you really want to pick apart what "executive experience" means, I think that her time as governor & mayor in Alaska does not compare to Biden's experience as chairman of several Senate committees.

Obama won a senate seat in a state of 12,000,000+ citizens. Alaska's population is just shy of 700,000.

Also, Biden & Obama both have law degrees, and both taught law @ universities, FWIW.
posted by Lukenlogs at 10:14 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

shhhh, Lukenlogs....don't interrupt when official taking points are being conveyed...it makes them confused, and they automatically revert to blaming everything on Bill Clinton...
posted by troybob at 10:17 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

WOW. Congratulations, Marble, for leaving the most sexist comment in this whole nightmare thread. I especially like the deftness of the "I'm afraid" and "too many traditionally minded people who will think she should be at home". UM THAT'S YOU. YOU ARE THE ONE SAYING THAT.

Yeah, my favorite part of this whole election cycle has been the way blatant racism and sexism are now legitimized at a meta-level by saying "You know, I don't believe this, some of my best friends are $MINORITY_GROUP, but those people over there--it's going to be a dealbreaker for them. Better stick to the safe white male candidates." There was even a poll some months back, in which a vast majority said they'd be willing to vote for a black person as president--but half of them said their neighbors wouldn't.
posted by nasreddin at 10:17 PM on August 29, 2008 [4 favorites]

My favorite part was definitely "What about the complication of trying to make everyone understand her breastfeeding for two years (what every kid deserves, at the least, imho)". Yes, how could a woman make "other people" understand the thing she is doing because they "think" she should do it? How indeed???
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:21 PM on August 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

corrupt Southern state

I'm going to go way out on a limb here and guess, just guess that you've never set foot in Arkansas and in fact don't know a goddamn thing about it beyond the Clintons, Mike Huckabee, Johnny Cash, and Billy Bob Thornton. Please proceed to wow me with your next comment about how uniquely (or even remarkably) corrupt Arkansas government is compared to the rest of the nation. I await your informed, balanced answer with bated breath. And no good just googling up one or two political scandals -- that can be done with any state easily. Please, please tell me how worse we are than New York and California and D.C. and Illinois and Florida and really any of the other 46 states. Feel free to throw in Puerto Rico and Guam, if you'd really like to underscore your point.
posted by middleclasstool at 10:26 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

Does the VP do something from day to day?

Actually, yes. The Vice President is the presiding officer of the Senate. The duties are normally delegated to the President pro tem , but the V.P. does have the power to break a tie vote. This is only occasionally necessary, though, and it is the only time the V.P. can vote at all. Otherwise, the V.P. may only show up on special occasions such as the State of the Union address (the practice established by Thomas Jefferson). Since 1947, the V.P. is also a member of the National Security Council.

I'm surprised there are no baby boomers in this election. All the candidates were either born before 1945 or after 1960 (Obama is "technically" a baby boomer but he gives the impression of someone younger than 47). You would think this election would have baby boomers represented as they approach 60 and should be at the height of experience without being too old.

This was remarked on during the primaries and even in 2004. The boomers, as a generation, seem to be skipping the presidency. It's not like there's a shortage of them! It's especially odd when you consider that the two major party candidates both chose non-boomers to balance their tickets. They both skipped over -- in different directions, yet! -- several potential eligible boomers. It's a pretty small sample size, but I wonder what this means.
posted by dhartung at 10:44 PM on August 29, 2008

This was remarked on during the primaries and even in 2004. The boomers, as a generation, seem to be skipping the presidency.

Well, I guess they gave up the presidency, but as a result would like us to spend the rest of our lives reliving their debates from the 60/70s.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 10:54 PM on August 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

George W And Bill Clinton were both born in 1946 - doesn't that make them boomers? So yeah, the boomers skipped the Presidency, other than those 16 years.
posted by Rumple at 11:04 PM on August 29, 2008

Okay, you know, I'm aware we've moved on and this isn't the Solon show, but after thinking about it a little more I owe you, grapefruitmoon, and perhaps several other readers an apology if many are still hanging around this ridiculously long thread.

In retrospect, my argument drifted to a degree I'm not really comfortable with. I wanted to make the point that I feel it's possible to dislike Palin's involvement with pageants without intrinsically feeling that way because of sexism/without feeling that she is stupid because of it. That ended up becoming way more moralistic than it should have been and more of a "she is a bad person/feminist for doing this" rather than "this is one aspect of many that I am dubious about when viewed in combination with other things - not because I am trying to be sexist, but the opposite."

I should have been more sensitive to that fact that many people have faced arguments similar to mine, only those arguments were aimed at making people feel bad for their looks/intelligence/usage of such. I hope I didn't trod too much on anyone's feet while being caught up in the discussion.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 11:10 PM on August 29, 2008 [3 favorites]

Yes W and Clinton were both boomers. So maybe you could say they skipped the presidency this year but they certainly got their turn.

Also, I just have to comment that the "what if she gives birth while presidentin!?'" comments are pretty ridiculous.
posted by delmoi at 11:22 PM on August 29, 2008

I couldn't believe it today when McCain picked such an inexperienced VP, so I thought I would tune in to right wing talk radio to see how they were coping with the news. Both Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity were saying what a great choice, maverick move, eminently qualified, out of the park home run, blah, blah, blah. It was the biggest fake orgasm in the history of the world. They've always hated McCain anyway.

Could you imagine how popular McCain would be if he really had acted as the maverick over the past 8 years? Picture McCain stridently battling Bush/Cheney over the lies that got us into Iraq, speaking out against torture and extraordinary rendition, defending Americans against the erosion of our Constitutional rights, condemning illegal wiretapping and ethnic profiling, and denouncing budget deficits like he once did. That would be a maverick, speaking truth to his party and earning the respect of all Americans. He would have been unstoppable. I think he discarded his principles and sold his soul over the last 8 years for a crack at the White House in 2008. THe Palin nomination is the icing on the cake.
posted by Daddy-O at 11:33 PM on August 29, 2008 [8 favorites]

Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, John McCain's surprise vice-presidential pick, is the subject of a legislative probe into claims that she abused her office by trying to get her former brother-in-law fired from his job as an Alaska state trooper.

Palin is likely to be deposed soon in the case, according to State Sen. Hollis French, who leads the state Senate's Legislative Counsel Committee.

Well, middleclasstool, I don't know anything about the government of Arkansas, but I can guess that it's no more corrupt than the Alaskan government! (See that! I diverted the derail!) Louisiana comes to mind, though. and florida, but it's arguable that they aren't 'really' Southern.

That's a pretty low bar. The Alaskan government has got to be one of the most corrupt state governments in the nation. They have two senators and one congressperson. One of the senators (Ted Stevens) is under indictment. Their congressman has hired a defense attorney and could be indicted as well. Palin came into office after defeating the incumbent governor, Frank Murkowski, in a primary, as he was under a cloud of scandal and on march 4th of this year his former chief of staff plead guilty to conspiracy.

What about Alaska's other senator, well, that would be Lisa Murkowski, franks daughter. She recently had to give back a house she purchased from a developer a deep discount, and Frank actually appointed her to fill his spot on the senate after leaving to become governer.

And now Sara Palin herself is in trouble and could be deposed soon in a legislative probe.

It's a fucking Orgy of corruption up there, man.
posted by delmoi at 11:34 PM on August 29, 2008

Solon and Thanks writes "In retrospect, my argument drifted to a degree I'm not really comfortable with. I wanted to make the point that I feel it's possible to dislike Palin's involvement with pageants without intrinsically feeling that way because of sexism/without feeling that she is stupid because of it. "

I don't think you need to apologize at all. You were pointing out that pageant participation is indicative of values. Anyone participating in any competition, beauty pageant or math decathlon, is putting time and effort into preparing for that competition. That's time and effort that could be used for other things, other things which are therefore evidentially not as valued by the cmpetitor.

Are beauty pageants less worthy of time and effort than, say, learning calculus (or French, or volunteering at a soup kitchen)? I'd argue yes, because in the case of a beauty pageant, the pay-off of all that preparation is transient and ephemeral, lasting only until the judges have judged and the make-up is washed off. Spending that same time learning calculus or French gives one a skill that lasts a lifetime and can be usefully applied in many situations. Spending that time at a soup-kitchen brightens many people's lives.

Learning to walk down a runway or apply make-up is also, I guess, a lasting skill, but it doesn't solve problems, or allow communication, or enrich others' lives; it's usefulness is pretty much limited to self-adornment. (Of course there are exceptions: the pageant winner who uses her make-up artistry to make cancer patients feel better, etc.)

So pageant participation is a window into a person's values, and it tells me that they value pageantry and presentation and ephemeral puffery over solid, substantial, lasting, meaningful uses of their time.

And I pesonally prefer substance. Especially for the position of understudy and possible successor to the highest office in the land.
posted by orthogonality at 11:47 PM on August 29, 2008 [5 favorites]

And I personally prefer substance. Especially for the position of understudy and possible successor to the highest office in the land.

Why do you hate America? *</sarky>
posted by Dipsomaniac at 11:50 PM on August 29, 2008

And that disc jockey who talkedtalkedtalkedtalkedtaaalked. Really don't miss that.

No way, Chris was one of my favorites!

It's not the thing you fling, it's the fling itself.
posted by naoko at 11:55 PM on August 29, 2008

delmoi:
Josh Marshall has been running stories on Alaskan corruption cases all. year. long. It's mind boggling just how screwed up they're government is.
posted by kaibutsu at 12:17 AM on August 30, 2008

George W And Bill Clinton were both born in 1946 - doesn't that make them boomers? So yeah, the boomers skipped the Presidency, other than those 16 years.

You know, you're right-- I forgot my facts.* What was true in 2004 was that no member of the Silent Generation had been or seemed likely to be President. The White House was held by members of the Greatest Generation (the Strauss & Howe name) from 1961 to 1993, when it skipped to Boomers with Clinton. Now, we face a choice between a Silent (11th) and a Thirteen (commonly, Generation Xer). But the Silent guy has picked an Xer as sidekick (overlooking several Boomers), while the Xer has picked another Boomer. If Obama wins, demographically, it's the Silents who will have skipped the presidency. Unless there's someone who can run in 2012 at age 71 or older. [US News, recently]

But yeah, the Boomers definitely got their chance. Sorry about that.

* In my defense, I'm having a devil of a time with my browser at the moment.
posted by dhartung at 12:59 AM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Ugh, I can't sleep with the absurdity. I mean, seriously:

The reasoning for why John McCain should be elected President of the United States seems to boil down to "He was a POW".

And now, to one-up that, the reasoning for why Sarah Palin should be elected Vice President of the United States seems to boil down to "She didn't have an abortion".

Seriously? Come on.
posted by Flunkie at 1:07 AM on August 30, 2008 [4 favorites]

Are beauty pageants less worthy of time and effort than, say, learning calculus (or French, or volunteering at a soup kitchen)? I'd argue yes, because in the case of a beauty pageant, the pay-off of all that preparation is transient and ephemeral, lasting only until the judges have judged and the make-up is washed off.

Subjectively, I can't agree more. My inclinations tell me that some arts (like clothes design) are lesser, and some (like poetry) greater; but I can't offer a single objective reason outside of my own preferences why this should be so. And further, this makes no account of interdependency between disciplines - without the trite little planktons of the arts, would the greater ones still flourish? Any less labor put into honing some woman's edged beauty, and we wouldn't have Adam's Curse or half of Yeats' repertoire.
posted by kid ichorous at 1:14 AM on August 30, 2008

Palin won't last September. Mark my words. After all the political backlash that accompanies her selection, McCain will have no real choice but to drop her. Of course, he won't do it himself--she'll suddenly decide "her family needs more right now." And then he'll go with some middle-of-the-road Republican (someone perhaps with some actual experience) holding out a faint hope that his base with their nanosecond-long attention spans will come swinging back to his defense for a last-ditch rally at the 11th hour. The media will be more than accomodating by giving the "sudden, surprising" twist of events plenty of free coverage in an advertising spree before the election. They'll bring plenty of "seasoned" Republican analysists who will reassure the people that McCain just had a momentary lapse of reason, and boy isn't that gal great for taking care of her retarded son, and boy howdy does this new (white, male) fella sure round McCain out. There won't be a dry Republican eye as they gush over how "hard" the decision must have been for her, and how "brave" she was for choosing her family over politics (not like them heartless Democrats!)

At this point, that's the best thing McCain can do. Palin is not going to be the VP ticket come November. No way, no how.
posted by Civil_Disobedient at 1:17 AM on August 30, 2008 [9 favorites]

Please proceed to wow me with your next comment about how uniquely (or even remarkably) corrupt Arkansas government is compared to the rest of the nation.

Well for starters, there's the issue of how you pronounce 'Arkansas'.
posted by Ritchie at 1:22 AM on August 30, 2008

Oh, the best part of the Palin remarks is at about 23:30, when she thanks Geraldine Ferraro and Hillary Clinton. With both names the crowd desperately wants to boo and it starts that way but turns into a pro forma cheer. Delicious to imagine the cognitive dissonance in the mind of the average person in that crowd -- after years of being told to do one thing, well, now dutifully they switch to doing the other. (We have always been at ~~war~~ peace with Eastasia.) In fact it's a speech taht must be full of pro forma cheering, because who many people knew who Palin was that morning, or by the time they showed up?

Anyway, that also followed an odd sort of dog whistle to Kennedy Democrats, with the Profiles in Courage thing. Did they not realize that the Kennedy contingent were the peacemakers between the Obama and Clinton camps, such as was necessary? There was an appeal to union membership and thereby "lunchbucket" voters, but they can't think that the Kennedy stuff really helps them there, can they?

Not to mention the nice things that John Glenn said about Mac. Boy, that Keating Five sure were thick as, uh, thieves .....
posted by dhartung at 1:23 AM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

I don't think anyone has posted this yet:

The Daily Show covers the Sarah Palin Announcement.
posted by paisley henosis at 2:12 AM on August 30, 2008 [6 favorites]

Dangit, Civil_Disobedient, I wanted to be the first one to make that prediction. I think you've nailed it. She'll drop, someone else will step into the Veep spot, but the one part of your prediction that missed is that it isn't going to be middle-of-the-road R. It's going to be a far Right choice. That's the only way they can get a mass of voters [big enough to swing the whole election] to make that screeching U-turn.
posted by Lukenlogs at 2:34 AM on August 30, 2008

Civil_Disobedient: Palin won't last September. Mark my words. After all the political backlash that accompanies her selection, McCain will have no real choice but to drop her. Of course, he won't do it himself--she'll suddenly decide "her family needs more right now."

Oooh, excellent angle, I didn't see that one.
I guess this will give them the opportunity to steal this election as well, in case the whole new family/character thing doesn't pan out as planned: Like C_D suggested, they could just replace her by someone white, male and experienced, except that the replacement would take place only two weeks prior to the election. The polls will swing widely in both directions, as everybody is trying to make up their minds about the new situation, and at the finish line, the McCain team will be just slightly ahead, thanks to a little help by Premier/Diebold. "I guess this last-minute replacement did give the McCain team the last-minute boost it needed to come out on top."
posted by sour cream at 2:48 AM on August 30, 2008

LISTEN PEOPLE THE MOST FEMINIST RESPONSE is to recognize that all women live under and have to respond to and survive the patriarchy. And that competing in beauty pageants is a totally legit response to the shit that gets rained down, to the opportunities that are closed off, to the questions asked and the responses demanded. Everyone has their methods, their vanities, their ways of struggling, of taking advantage when necessary, of capitalizing on possible advances. It's a fucked up game and everyone is playing it. Beauty-Queen Palin is low-neckline everyone, is makeup and flirting or not, is pushing and pulling in response to the power that circulates. It doesn't mean what you think it means, her intelligence is not on the line.
posted by wemayfreeze at 3:19 AM on August 30, 2008 [3 favorites]

Talk about the most transparently token choice in recent political history.

Any other Mad Men fans out there?
posted by rafter at 3:31 AM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

I guess Susan Collins, Christie Todd Whitman, Oympia Snowe, and Elizabeth Dole were busy.

Yup, busy being pro-choice, pro-gay rights or, in Elizabeth Dole's case, being 77.

Seriously, try finding Republican woman in government who isn't pro-choice. I haven't checked the House, but it's darn rare.
posted by heathkit at 3:38 AM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

She and her husband, Todd, also an athlete, named their first son Track because he was born in that sport's season.

I'm hoping the next kid's named Camp David.
posted by essexjan at 3:48 AM on August 30, 2008

Dammit, if Mitt Romney would have got the party nomination, instead of McCain, he and Palin could have run on the Sexy Fundy ticket.

The New Republicans: You want to fuck us, and boy, are we going to fuck you.
posted by dgaicun at 4:25 AM on August 30, 2008 [4 favorites]

I guess Susan Collins, Christie Todd Whitman, Oympia Snowe, and Elizabeth Dole were busy.

Actually Liddy's had nothing but free time since NC sent her to the Senate 6 years ago, because she sure as hell hasn't been doing anything there. But she probably remembers the 1996 campaign and isn't particularly interested in doing it again.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:30 AM on August 30, 2008

the issue of how you pronounce 'Arkansas'

ar-kansas? like pirate kansas?
posted by kliuless at 4:54 AM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

the reasoning for why Sarah Palin should be elected Vice President of the United States seems to boil down to "She didn't have an abortion".

C'mon, there's more to her than that. She didn't have five abortions.
posted by hydrophonic at 4:56 AM on August 30, 2008 [3 favorites]

Whew. I can't believe I read the whole thing.

Fascinating stuff. I still can't decide if it's a brilliant choice or a totally stupid one. My gut reaction is that it's entirely banking on Hillary defection which I've always thought was more smoke than fire.

And sure she's got some hardcore right-wing points but I thought McCain would have those in the bag by default. Who else were the pro-gun, anti-abortion folks going to vote for?

It does neutralize some attacks (Biden probably can't be as mean without seeming like a jerk) but it also undermines many of McCain's lines of attack.

All in all it's a real interesting pick. As a Canadian Obama supporter I was hoping for Romney because he seems like a generic Republican creep who'd get brutalized by Biden in the debates. Now I'm not sure how it'll play out, which is something.
posted by frenetic at 4:57 AM on August 30, 2008

God, she sounds completely incoherent talking about foreign policy. I kept expecting her to propose sending maps to the Iraq.
posted by EarBucket at 4:59 AM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Fascinating stuff. I still can't decide if it's a brilliant choice or a totally stupid one.

In any case, John McCain has, again, demonstrated his ability to think outside the box, a trait that he picked up and perfected when he was forced to live in one for five years.

And Sarah Palin isn't doing to bad in that department either. I mean, Trig Paxson Van Palin!?
posted by sour cream at 5:48 AM on August 30, 2008 [3 favorites]

yeah, so after a day, i'm going with the 'emerging narrative' of shoring up the base with a like-minded fellow maverick with a record of reform :P that is all!
posted by kliuless at 5:59 AM on August 30, 2008

'sarah palin' is an anagram for 'sip anal hair'
posted by quonsar at 6:07 AM on August 30, 2008 [4 favorites]

named their first son Track because he was born in that sport's season.

With criteria like that, I'm surprised the other kids weren't named Duck, Deer, Bear and Football.
posted by kuujjuarapik at 6:28 AM on August 30, 2008 [3 favorites]

Well stated point, orthogonality, and I do agree with you. I was just moving more into "she is a bad person" realm than I felt comfortable.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 6:29 AM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

ar-kansas? like pirate kansas?

"The pronunciation of Arkansas (ar-kan-saw) was made official by an act of the state legislature in 1881 after a dispute between the two U.S. Senators from Arkansas. One wanted to pronounce the name ar-kán-sas and the other wanted ár-kan-saw." [wiki, footnote of interest]
posted by paisley henosis at 6:30 AM on August 30, 2008

Kevin Drum has an excellent post on Palin's stance on the issues, which lays out seven talking points the Obama camp ought to hammer hard:

Joe Klein on taxes: Palin exploded her state's coffers by imposing a windfall profits tax on the oil companies...sort of — no, exactly — like the proposal Barack Obama has made and John McCain has attacked. Apparently, she also supported the Bridge to Nowhere, despite her disclaimer at today's event. So how does McCain explain putting a tax-raising porker on his ticket?

Alaska native Charles Wohlforth on the Troopergate scandal: In July, Palin fired the beloved commissioner of Public Safety, Walt Monegan, without meaningful explanation. Monegan said he had resisted administration pressure to fire a State Trooper who was in a bitter child custody battle with Palin's sister. Palin first denied the pressure, then released evidence, including a recorded phone call, that backed up Monegan's story. The legislature, which isn't exactly Palin-friendly, hired an ex-prosecutor to investigate.

Sarah Palin on creationism vs. evolution in public schools: I am a proponent of teaching both. And, you know, I say this, too, as the daughter of a science teacher. Growing up with being so privileged and blessed to be given a lot of information on, on both sides of the subject — creationism and evolution. It’s been a healthy foundation for me. But don’t be afraid of information and let kids debate both sides.

Anchorage Daily News reporter Tom Kizzia on social issues: A significant part of Palin's base of support lies among social and Christian conservatives. Her positions on social issues emerged slowly during the campaign: on abortion (should be banned for anything other than saving the life of the mother), stem cell research (opposed), physician-assisted suicide (opposed), creationism (should be discussed in schools), state health benefits for same-sex partners (opposed, and supports a constitutional amendment to bar them).

Sierra Club Executive Director Carl Pope on big oil: Palin herself told Roll Call earlier this week, "When I look every day, the big oil company's building is right out there next to me, and it's quite a reminder that we should have mutually beneficial relationships with the oil industry." No one is closer to the the oil industry than Governor Palin. Along with her support for drilling in the Arctic Wildlife Refuge and off our coasts, she also opposes a windfall profit tax on the richest oil companies. Under her leadership, Alaska has sued the federal governent for considering listing the Polar Bear as a threatened species even though global warming threatens its very existence.

Sarah Palin on global warming: A changing environment will affect Alaska more than any other state, because of our location. I'm not one though who would attribute it to being man-made.

Politico's Glenn Thrush on spending: Palin, who portrays herself as a fiscal conservative, racked up nearly $20 million in long-term debt as mayor of the tiny town of Wasilla — that amounts to $3,000 per resident. She argues that the debt was needed to fund improvements.
posted by EarBucket at 6:37 AM on August 30, 2008 [5 favorites]

What a depressing thread, I came here excited to see the unqualified, inexperienced and going to be deposed Palin ripped to pieces as an obviosly horrible choice and great news for Obama. But it seems like the majority of Obama supporters here still can only see the glass as half empty.

Obama could have picked Jesus as his VP and McCain could have picked Zombie Hitler, y'all would still be whining that "Jesus is an all right guy, but what is he going to do in the debates with his turn the other cheek policy? Zombie Hitler will probably just eat is arm right off and he won't do anything about it."
posted by afu at 6:44 AM on August 30, 2008 [12 favorites]

Oh man. I saw Newt Gringrich on the Today Show this morning and he was talking about how, looking at the candidates on a split screen with the sound off he couldn't get over how they got the exciting young candidate and the Democrats picked the boring old white guy.

I just don't know what to do with that. My satire meter has exploded.
posted by Solon and Thanks at 6:48 AM on August 30, 2008 [6 favorites]

It does neutralize some attacks (Biden probably can't be as mean without seeming like a jerk) but it also undermines many of McCain's lines of attack.

No, it doesn't. It's ok to have the inexperienced but talented person in the #2 slot, but putting that person in the #1 slot, like the Democrats did, when we're in the midst of two wars?! That's not only crazy and stupid, that's just plain irresponsible and UnAmerican! Expect similar arguments.

The Dems would do well to stop calling her a lightweight, especially in terms of debating Biden. At this point all she has to do is hold her own and she'll come out looking golden while Biden, the supposed experienced master, wouldn't be portrayed as a buffoon for not being able to beat that skirt from podunk Alaska.

McCain is the issue. Hit HIM hard.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:07 AM on August 30, 2008

Sarah Palin laughs with radio host as he calls her opponent a "bitch" and a "cancer".

Well I guess that explains this reaction by fellow Republican Green:

Alaska State Senate President Lyda Green (R): “She’s not prepared to be governor. How can she be prepared to be vice president or president? Look at what she’s done to this state. What would she do to the nation?” (Green is from Palin’s home town of Wasilla.)

But in any case, she is a fresh face and has her heart in the right place, so she can say anything she wants, including all that stupid nonsense about how the earth was created 6000 years ago and global warming is not man-made. Didn't you get the memo?
posted by sour cream at 7:16 AM on August 30, 2008

McCain's Folly... enough said.
posted by JoeXIII007 at 7:17 AM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

“Top McCain aide says McCain won't die during his first term in office, and admits Palin isn't ready to be commander in chief

Putting aside the creepiness of a top McCain adviser having to reassure the nation that McCain, at 72 years of age with four bouts of cancer, won't die in office, what Charlie Black said today was particularly damning of McCain's VP choice, Sarah Palin:
Mr. McCain’s advisers said Friday that Mr. McCain was well aware that Ms. Palin would be criticized for her lack of foreign policy experience, but that he viewed her as exceptionally talented and intelligent and that he felt she would be able to be educated quickly.

‘She’s going to learn national security at the foot of the master for the next four years, and most doctors think that he’ll be around at least that long,’ said Charlie Black, one of Mr. McCain’s top advisers, making light of concerns about Mr. McCain’s health, which Mr. McCain’s doctors reported as excellent in May.
So Black, the guy who said another 9/11-style attack on America would help McCain's campaign, is saying that McCain's VP doesn't know a thing about national security, but she can learn on the job over the next four years, you know, like night school. We're at war. And they're admitting that Palin may be our next commander in chief on day one, if McCain were to die or fall ill in office, yet she knows nothing about national security, and has never met a world leader.”

While Palin crams for the "Commander-in-Chief" test, Bill Frist reviews McCain's medical records and guarantees him immortality!
posted by ericb at 7:20 AM on August 30, 2008 [3 favorites]

Delicious to imagine the cognitive dissonance in the mind of the average person in that crowd ...

Rove Flips On Qualifications For Vice Presidency, Says Palin Is Qualified For Same Reason Kaine Was Not

“Earlier this month, Karl Rove repeatedly argued that Virginia Gov. Tim Kaine (D) would not be ‘capable’ of being Vice President. He complained that ‘he’s been a governor for three years’ and said Kaine was mayor of only the ‘the 105th largest city in America,’ referring to Kaine’s tenure as mayor of Richmond, VA. ‘It’s not a big town,’ he quipped.

Yesterday, however, Rove argued just the opposite with regard to Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin (R). He explained on Fox News that Palin was a good choice as McCain’s vice presidential nominee because she was ‘mayor of the second largest city in Alaska’:
ROVE: She’s a populist, she’s an economic and a social conservative, she’s a reformer, she took on the incumbent governor of the state Frank Murkowski — Republican — beat him in the primary, won an upset in the general election. She’s a former mayor. She’s the mayor of, I think, the second largest city in Alaska before she ran for governor.
Kaine was indeed mayor of the ‘the 105th largest city in America.’ While there, he governed nearly 200,000 people and managed a bureaucracy of over 8,000 employees. By contrast, Palin was mayor of Wasilla, AK, a town of just over 8,000 people that currently employs just over 100 individuals and — contrary to Rove’s claim — didn’t even make it into the 10 largest cities in AK while she was mayor.”

posted by ericb at 7:29 AM on August 30, 2008 [9 favorites]

Governor Palin Visits troops.

"Ms. Palin appears to have traveled very little outside the United States. In July 2007, she had to get a passport before she visited members of the Alaska National Guard stationed in Kuwait, according to her deputy communications director, Sharon Leighow. She also visited wounded troops in Germany during that trip."

posted by ericb at 7:32 AM on August 30, 2008

Watching them on stage yesterday, it seemed kind of Pygmalion-ish.
posted by carter at 7:40 AM on August 30, 2008

Excellent point- like Gore and W in 2000, Biden is in an almost unwinnable situation.

It's fine. He should not even engage her in the Veep debate, as she has nothing. All Biden has to do is ignore her (but not in a dismissive, sexist way... the tricky part) and focus his debate on attacking the Bush/McCain record. She won't be able to defend the record, and he can avoid looking like he's attacking her.
posted by psmealey at 7:44 AM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

SCANDAL! RUMOR! EXTRA!

Is Trig Palin really Bristol's child?

SCANDAL! HEARSAY! READ ALL ABOUT IT!
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 7:47 AM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Already mentioned above: Am I too late to the thread to discuss the incredibly odd rumor that the new kid may not be hers at all, but her daughter's?
posted by ericb at 7:50 AM on August 30, 2008

Yeah, I think Biden has a bit of a tricky line to walk in the debate, but so does Palin. All she has to do is say one stupid thing and that becomes her narrative. All it'll take is one "potatoe" soundbyte.

Remember John McCain talking a few weeks ago about the border between Iraq and Pakistan? That didn't stick with him, because the existing narrative is that he knows all about foreign policy, and gaffes usually don't get traction unless they reinforce people's preconceptions about someone. If Palin had said that, she'd become a punchline. And given the stuff that's already coming out just from the last month (saying she doesn't know what the vice president's job is? really?) I don't think we have long to wait.
posted by EarBucket at 7:51 AM on August 30, 2008

The Dems would do well to stop calling her a lightweight, especially in terms of debating Biden. At this point all she has to do is hold her own and she'll come out looking golden while Biden, the supposed experienced master, wouldn't be portrayed as a buffoon for not being able to beat that skirt from podunk Alaska.

As if it matters. Kerry absolutely destroyed Bush in all three debates, leaving Bush stammering like a buffoon and still lost. The debates don't do anything to change elections. The only thing idiot Americans have the attention span for are 30 second tv spots. That's the only way to move the people of America. The most important thing to happen so far in this election was the McCain Paris Hilton ad. If the Dems don't wake up and figure out how to connect McCain's anger to something in pop culture that they can relate to he'll have no chance. The Dems historically make the mistake that Americans are intelligent people, we are not, we are idiots, treat us like idiots and you'll have a chance.
posted by any major dude at 7:56 AM on August 30, 2008 [5 favorites]

900!
Or thereabouts

Stay positive fellow Obama people, she's greener than a fluorescent booger. And McCain's older than Archimede's Screw. These are not great first impressions for the low information voters. There is much hope yet for November.
posted by nudar at 7:57 AM on August 30, 2008

As far as the pregnancy thing goes, this video looks to me like she could be pregnant. She doesn't look seven months along at all, but some women do carry differently.
posted by EarBucket at 8:00 AM on August 30, 2008

Good call, psmealey. It's just like debating stuff here — or anywhere, for that matter. It's always best to stick to the issues rather than making personal attacks. Someone who knows his or her stuff will always come across better than someone who doesn't.
posted by orange swan at 8:01 AM on August 30, 2008

It's fine. He should not even engage her in the Veep debate, as she has nothing. All Biden has to do is ignore her (but not in a dismissive, sexist way... the tricky part) and focus his debate on attacking the Bush/McCain record. She won't be able to defend the record, and he can avoid looking like he's attacking her.

Biden is a smart man, so I reckon that's exactly what he'll do. He's not going to beat her up. Which is exactly why she'll bring up her kids, her unaborted disabled child, over and over and over. Hopefully, Biden will respond by talking about which party has tried to do more for the nation's children and their parents, and which party has forsaken their futures to finance a disastrous war. Biden could play the child card just as well as Palin, if not better, because while she'll have the one-note melody of "I didn't abort my kids", he'll be able to say, "And no one loves kids as much as the Democratic Party, because of A, B, C, and D."
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:02 AM on August 30, 2008

Ack, ericb, I swear I searched. Big thread makes brain go ow.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 8:02 AM on August 30, 2008

Her reproductive and child rearing choices are hers and the "first dude"'s. I find the discussion of these choices here utterly creepy. Privacy is at least the legal foundation of abortion rights in the US, right?

Also - with regards to the "problem" of breastfeeding while in office or campaigning... Grow up. America should have such problems as a VP who is a breastfeeding PSA.
posted by ~ at 8:19 AM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

dhartung: Oh wow, the crowd starts chanting "Yes We Can" at the 25:00 Mark. I have no idea what that means.
posted by Weebot at 8:23 AM on August 30, 2008

But it seems like the majority of Obama supporters here still can only see the glass as half empty.

It's okay. Novelty wears off quickly. And this whole election cycle has played out like some meth-crazed cleaning spree so I can't see it lasting long. The Palin pick was mostly unexpected and Obama supporters went to bed with the acceptance speech dominating the news then basically woke up to the Palin pick dominating the news. It was a well played media ploy and on the surface the pick appears (barely) effective and exciting. I'm sure there's also some lingering doubts about the Biden pick in the context of the FISA and offshore drilling compromises Obama has supported since winning the nomination. And the timing and unexpectedness of the pick basically took a lot of air out of the media gains from the Democratic Convention and effectively neutralized the Obama speech, so this was a fantastic morale killer.

I think of it like a bad chess move, though. McCain has just put his queen in the center of the board very early in the game. But it actually isn't a queen, it's two pawns taped together, and he moved it three spaces forward and four spaces to the right in one move, seemingly putting Obama in check. But that all depends on if you buy the story that the two pawns taped together is actually a queen and accept the improper move. Sure, it kinda looks like a queen, and the move was kinda like a diagonal, but the bluff is ridiculous and obvious.
posted by effwerd at 8:28 AM on August 30, 2008 [9 favorites]

... the crowd starts chanting "Yes We Can" at the 25:00 Mark. I have no idea what that means.

Co-opting the Obama phrase and chant from the other night: "Yes We Can" (as per the original will.i.am video).
posted by ericb at 8:29 AM on August 30, 2008

"Amid chants of "Yes we can," Democrats nominated Barack Obama for president."^*
posted by ericb at 8:33 AM on August 30, 2008

Obama Modifies 'Yes We Can' Message To Exclude Area Loser
posted by lukemeister at 8:38 AM on August 30, 2008

She doesn't look seven months along at all, but some women do carry differently.

Nicole Kidman had a baby this year, and she never looked as pregnant as she was. I have a friend, too, who didn't gain enough weight while pregnant to have to wear maternity clothes.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:41 AM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Here's an essay that explains the major reason this was a huge mistake.
posted by Bookhouse at 8:42 AM on August 30, 2008

New Obama television ad featuring McCain's choice of Palin: "No Change."
posted by ericb at 8:44 AM on August 30, 2008

As far as the pregnancy thing goes, this video looks to me like she could be pregnant.

Yes, but she's drinking COFFEE! OMG who will think of the CHILDRUN!!!11ELEVENTY1!
posted by The Bellman at 8:45 AM on August 30, 2008

Newsweek: McCain’s ‘Hail Sarah’ Pass -- "His choice for veep is all but set up for failure in the fall."
posted by ericb at 8:49 AM on August 30, 2008

Hey, guys, don't worry! This guy says she'll step down if McCain dies!

This election is such an awesome roller coaster.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:12 AM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Is Trig Palin really Bristol's child?

My sister! My daughter! My sister! My daughter!
posted by shakespeherian at 9:18 AM on August 30, 2008 [11 favorites]

ericb writes "‘She’s going to learn national security at the foot of the master for the next four years, and most doctors think that he’ll be around at least that long,’ said Charlie Black, one of Mr. McCain’s top advisers,"

Most doctors. At least that long.

Wow, just wow.
posted by orthogonality at 9:20 AM on August 30, 2008 [4 favorites]

That might be the worst piece of spin yet in this election cycle. "Yeah, she's not ready, but we figure she can learn on the job, and she'll probably be up to it in a couple of years. And we're pretty sure McCain won't drop dead by then. Probably."
posted by EarBucket at 9:23 AM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think the big mistake everyone here is making is this: you focus on why she is a poor choice and why she will fail.

You need to keep in mind that she was very deliberately selected. There is a reason why the powers behind the process chose her. It advances them toward a goal.

What you should be doing is trying to figure out what that goal is.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:27 AM on August 30, 2008 [7 favorites]

Alaska House Speaker John Harris (R): “She’s old enough. She’s a U.S. citizen.”

That's a ringing endorsement. She's much more qualified than I am. I'm not old enough, and I'm not a U.S. citizen.

Anyway, Northern Exposure sucked once the Fleischman character left.

Fleishman and O'Connell were the most annoying characters on the show - the storylines about the other characters were much better. I think the problem with the end of the series is not that Fleishman left, but that they tried to (badly) replace him. Also, they were messing around with the schedule - that's just a death knell to any show.

Course, I would have happily tuned into the "Ed & Ruth-anne Show" (with Marilyn as perpetual guess star). I think Ed was enough neroses for the show, they didn't need to import so many nervous southerners.
posted by jb at 9:31 AM on August 30, 2008

I think the goal is pretty clear. McCain is the underdog. If he does nothing, he's doomed in November. He figures that rather than play it safe and lose for sure, he'd rather make a high-risk play and at least have a chance at winning.

Obama's choice of Biden is fundamentally confident. Biden doesn't bring a huge amount to the table electorally, but he's very much someone you could be comfortable with running the country. It's a governance choice, not an electoral one. It means he thinks he's going to win.

McCain choosing Palin means he thinks he's going to lose, and he needs to take a longshot chance at winning and deal with governing once he gets in.
posted by EarBucket at 9:33 AM on August 30, 2008 [10 favorites]

Palin Ad Starring Ted Stevens Already Scrubbed From Palin's Campaign Website
posted by homunculus at 9:41 AM on August 30, 2008

I'm sure there's also some lingering doubts about the Biden pick in the context of the FISA and offshore drilling compromises Obama has supported since winning the nomination.

The lingering doubts about Biden are that he's a boring old wrinkly white guy from a small northeastern state, not policy details. McCain picked an exciting VP option; Obama went boring.

An exciting VP choice is no guarantee of a win. But all the attention McCain's choice is getting is a good example of how a good choice has the potential to transform the race.
posted by Forktine at 9:46 AM on August 30, 2008

Why shouldn't Biden beat her up (rhetorically) in the VP debate? Isn't it sexist to say that? Wouldn't that contradict what she says herself in her comments about Hillary's "whining"?

This pick is a continuation of George W. Bush's tradition of picking unqualified incompetents and putting them into roles that are way over their heads, like putting Michael "Heckuva Job" Brown in charge of FEMA.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:49 AM on August 30, 2008 [3 favorites]

Also, I owe Dan Quayle an apology. I compared him to Governor Palin, but he was considerably more experienced when he was picked as the VP candidate.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:52 AM on August 30, 2008

Interestingly, she's polling much better among men than women.
posted by EarBucket at 9:52 AM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

The Dems historically make the mistake that Americans are intelligent people, we are not, we are idiots, treat us like idiots and you'll have a chance.

I cannot stress this enough.

The much-smarter powers behind the party selected Palin for a purpose. "Longshot chance at winning" was certainly not the reason for selecting her.

What you should be doing is trying to figure out what that goal is.

To get her something tantamount to the pow card? McCain has been in war, obviously. Palin's son is going off to war on (coinkydinkyinky!) 9/11 right? Let's say he dies in combat. Then you have McCain talking about the war, p.o.w.!p.o.w.!p.o.w.!, and Palin now is the grieving military mom who nobody can question because her son just died in Iraq. The news will be abuzz and they'll play the pow/grieving military mother angle with flags flying and eagles soaring and them looking sooo American.

"Palin isn't experienced. She had no opinion on the war in March 2007"

"Well she's had the experience of just losing a son in Iraq - is that not enough?"

"She's not ready - she doesn't have the experience to lead our troops"

"She already gave the life of her child. Who better to sincerely have their interests in mind."
posted by cashman at 10:07 AM on August 30, 2008

ericb: Well, I know that part already. I'm referring more to the fact that Obama's rhetoric seems to be defining his opponent's campaigns — Hillary's, McCain's. It's not a bad position to be in.
posted by Weebot at 10:16 AM on August 30, 2008

I also think those initial polling numbers are as good as it's going to get for her; it's all downhill from here. A year and a half ago, when she was mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, the GOP base was fired up over Fred Thompson, who was going to be the second coming of Ronald Reagan and save the party. Remember that guy?
posted by EarBucket at 10:49 AM on August 30, 2008

Exactly, EarBucket.

(good name, BTW)
posted by Bookhouse at 11:05 AM on August 30, 2008

It just gets better and better:

Former House Speaker Gail Phillips, a Republican political leader who has clashed with Palin in the past, was shocked when she heard the news Friday morning with her husband, Walt.

"I said to Walt, 'This can't be happening, because his advance team didn't come to Alaska to check her out," Phillips said.

Phillips has been active in the Ted Stevens re-election steering committee and remains in close touch with Sen. Lisa Murkowski and other party leaders, and she said nobody had heard anything about McCain's people doing research on his prospective running mate.

"We're not a very big state. People I talk to would have heard something."

It sounds like the McCain campaign didn't bother to vet her. How is that possible?
posted by EarBucket at 11:14 AM on August 30, 2008 [9 favorites]

LOL THE REPUBLICANS ARE SCREWED

LET'S GO PARTY NOW, WE'VE WON.
posted by kldickson at 11:23 AM on August 30, 2008

Quidam: The bottom line is that the bulk of America, especially the bulk of conservative America, isn't going to vote for who they're going to vote for because they look long and hard at voting records and experience - they're going to say "Wow, I really like her! She's got 5 kids! Her son's in the military!" and that will be the end of it.

any major dude:The Dems historically make the mistake that Americans are intelligent people, we are not, we are idiots, treat us like idiots and you'll have a chance.

This. This, this, this. Average Americans have already proved that their votes are driven by gut feelings, not rationality. I can't believe the number of Dems making the same mistake they made in previous elections, making fun of a candidate for perceived lack of intelligence, lack of academic credentials, etc. Average Americans don't value intellectualism the way you do. You think if Palin makes a mistake like "potatoe" it'll sink her? Guess what, average Americans can't spell. They identify with people who are like them. They'll vote for people who are like them. The more they hear from Dems making fun of people like them, the more they'll reject the Dems' candidate.

Dems can ridicule her until the cows come home (and criticizing her for having a Downs kid? Christ!), and all they'll be doing is proving to Dick and Jane American that Dems have nothing but contempt for hardworking people who care about their families, who never got a college degree but worked their way up, despite intellectual snobbery from people like you.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 11:26 AM on August 30, 2008 [13 favorites]

The Dems historically make the mistake that Americans are intelligent people, we are not, we are idiots, treat us like idiots and you'll have a chance.

I disagree. The same mistake I've seen Democrats make over the years is taxes and guns. They've been taxing poor people to the detriment of the economy and government. A Republican can still dishonestly claim to lower taxes in America and get the attention of the working class. Dollar for dollar, the worst mistake ever for raising money in a demand economy. As for guns, they made people who see themselves as guardians take the side of the raider.
posted by Brian B. at 11:36 AM on August 30, 2008

Dems can ridicule her until the cows come home (and criticizing her for having a Downs kid? Christ!), and all they'll be doing is proving to Dick and Jane American that Dems have nothing but contempt for hardworking people who care about their families, who never got a college degree but worked their way up, despite intellectual snobbery from people like you.

You know, this old saw about what some vague, nebulous "Dick and Jane American" thinks and feels is wearing thin. "Dick and Jane American would never make a black man a viable candidate" - "Dick and Jane American would never vote for a guy with 'Hussein' for a middle name" - "Dick and Jane American in Iowa are going to put some old white guy in the forefront, Obama's done." Looks like we've got a different set of Dick and Jane Americans this year!

Votes are driven by gut feelings, sure. But it seems that this year, there's a different set of feelings people are voting from.

And do you honestly think it's "intellectual snobbery" to go after someone's lack of experience? Seemed to be good enough for "plain-talkin" McCain, up until yesterday, anyway.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:37 AM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Why shouldn't Biden beat her up (rhetorically) in the VP debate? Isn't it sexist to say that? Wouldn't that contradict what she says herself in her comments about Hillary's "whining"?

It *is* sexist to think that she can't handle a debate with the good ol' boys. But that won't stop the media from playing it that way- what sells more Ped-Eggs?:

- "More experienced candidate wins debate."

or

- "Mean old white guy makes sexy librarian lady-governor cry."
posted by gjc at 11:43 AM on August 30, 2008

I disagree. The same mistake I've seen Democrats make over the years is taxes and guns. They've been taxing poor people to the detriment of the economy and government. A Republican can still dishonestly claim to lower taxes in America and get the attention of the working class. Dollar for dollar, the worst mistake ever for raising money in a demand economy. As for guns, they made people who see themselves as guardians take the side of the raider.

How are we going to pay for all the GOP big-government programs with out taxes?
posted by gjc at 11:45 AM on August 30, 2008

Hey, guys, don't worry! This guy says she'll step down if McCain dies!

McCain/To Be Announced '08

The lingering doubts about Biden are that he's a boring old wrinkly white guy from a small northeastern state, not policy details.

I won't argue. It works out the same in the end.

As far as the merits of making an exciting pick over a practical pick, well, I'm glad Obama went with practical.

It just gets better and better:

Former House Speaker Gail Phillips, a Republican political leader who has clashed with Palin in the past, was shocked when she heard the news Friday morning with her husband, Walt.

"I said to Walt, 'This can't be happening, because his advance team didn't come to Alaska to check her out," Phillips said.

I know it was suggested far up in the thread but this "Hockey Mom President" idea is sounding better and better. I mean someone at Lifetime has to be smacking their forehead.
posted by effwerd at 11:45 AM on August 30, 2008

He didn't vet her?

THE NEW SEASON OF "WHO WANTS TO BE PRESIDENT" IS AWESOME!!!111!
posted by Bookhouse at 11:51 AM on August 30, 2008 [6 favorites]

Regarding the teen-pregnancy rumors, the Democrats AND liberal websites need to stay far, far away from that one. It's SO soap opera-esque and sleazy. Just leave it to the National Enquirer to crack the case ... if there's any truth to it, I'm sure they'll have it into print, vetted by lawyers, within a week. Since they brought down Edwards, it wouldn't seem partisan ... the Enquirer's role IS to go after the high-drama and sleazy. But the left should try to stay above it all.

As for the equally distasteful thread of "parents (especially mothers) of young kids shouldn't have stressful, high-level jobs" ... you'd think that anyone smart and efficient enough to get a stressful, high-level job can also organize their personal life well enough to take care of everybody.

Really, there's enough to talk about regarding Palin's government experience and policies that we don't need to go anyplace else.
posted by lisa g at 11:56 AM on August 30, 2008 [3 favorites]

McCain did not choose Palin. McCain does not make very many choices during a campaign. He is a professionally-managed player. The much-smarter powers behind the party selected Palin for a purpose. "Longshot chance at winning" was certainly not the reason for selecting her.

What has the McCain campaign done that has made you think it's well run, it's near bankruptcy last year, the massive staff rearrangement in the middle of the summer or was it the fact that he won because the rest of the field imploded on themselves? Karl Rove is not running the McCain campaign, and while some of his spawn are, they are not showing themselves to be his equal.

Democrats have huge structural and political advantages this year and a great candidate for president. he adults that run the republican party understand this better than progressives scared shittless by Rove, which is why they went with the hail mary that is Palin. We need to stop being such so fucking scared of the republicans and start showing some confidence.
posted by afu at 11:57 AM on August 30, 2008 [3 favorites]

How are we going to pay for all the GOP big-government programs with out taxes?

Tax the people with accountants, not wage earners who need new tires and brakes. How to do this fairly? Just don't tax anyone for any income under the average line. Levy a flat tax on all income after that.
posted by Brian B. at 11:58 AM on August 30, 2008

Please let Trig be short for Trigonometry, and Track short for Tracheotomy. Please.
posted by Grangousier at 12:00 PM on August 30, 2008

Thanks, lisa g. I agree 100%. No good can come of either strategy, and I have my doubts that any serious Democratic players - or any party that wants to keep women voters - are going to fling either one about. Especially since the Dems have the momentum and the energy to go all the way.

This is what I meant upthread about a "her reproductive system" offense seeming, to me, like false flag concern trolling.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:07 PM on August 30, 2008

The Dems historically make the mistake that Americans are intelligent people, we are not, we are idiots, treat us like idiots and you'll have a chance.

I disagree. The same mistake I've seen Democrats make over the years is taxes and guns. They've been taxing poor people to the detriment of the economy and government. A Republican can still dishonestly claim to lower taxes in America and get the attention of the working class. Dollar for dollar, the worst mistake ever for raising money in a demand economy. As for guns, they made people who see themselves as guardians take the side of the raider.

Your comment proves the point that Americans don't vote on facts.

The current tax proposal from the Democratice candidate would cut taxes for poor people and the middle class BY A GREATER PERCENTAGE than the Republican candidate. Every family making up to about $111,000 a year (well above the median household income, and thus including all middle class people, who are, you know, suposedly in the middle of income distribution) would be taxed less by the so-called "tax & spend" Democratic candidate than the actually tax you more and rich people less Republican candidate. The current Republican candidate who wishes to tax poor people and the middle class -- a lot more than the current Democrats -- while doing nothing to address the cost of healthcare - a far greater burden for poor and middle class families in economic bad times than taxes. At the end of this year, I will have paid about $1500 in taxes for myself and my husband; my health care costs $2400, and that's after my employer has already paid half.

It's not just that the Republicans lie about who their tax cuts are for - it's also that the American people apparently let themselves be so ill-informed that they don't even understand the simplest aspect of the differences in the candidates - differences that can be summed up (and which have been summed up) on a simple graphic which is widely available.

Leaving aside the debate about whether tax cuts are or are not a good idea (so far, economic history does not support their efficacy as economic stimulants), in November thousands or even millions of Americans who support tax cuts will be voting against the candidate who would give them a bigger tax cut because they refuse to inform themselves as to the actual facts of the two platforms. By their own ideals, they will be voting like idiots.
posted by jb at 12:07 PM on August 30, 2008 [4 favorites]

Vet her, nothing - it's starting to sound like they didn't even focus group her. The first round of polls has opinion running from a high of warm fuzzies and outright disdain. The choice might get a few more people out to vote - some of the evangelicals who were thinking of staying home this year - but I think it's going to register as a joke for the majority of people.

On the other hand, talk about setting the bar low... She could probably just start flinging poo at reporters and later be hailed as exceeding expectations. And the papers would call her a maverick, unafraid to fling shit at the press corps in the face of hard questions about the issues.
posted by kaibutsu at 12:07 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Tax the people with accountants, not wage earners who need new tires and brakes.

Good christ, generalize much? Accountants bad tires good?

How to do this fairly? Just don't tax anyone for any income under the average line. Levy a flat tax on all income after that.

I bet that doesn't seem fair to all the people who are stuck with that tax bill.
posted by gjc at 12:10 PM on August 30, 2008

Yup, busy being pro-choice, pro-gay rights or, in Elizabeth Dole's case, being 77.

Actually, it's 72, but that's still pretty shocking. She looks like she's in her late 40s or something. Must have had a lot of work done.

This. This, this, this. Average Americans have already proved that their votes are driven by gut feelings, not rationality. I can't believe the number of Dems making the same mistake they made in previous elections, making fun of a candidate for perceived lack of intelligence, lack of academic credentials, etc. Average Americans don't value intellectualism the way you do. You think if Palin makes a mistake like "potatoe" it'll sink her? Guess what, average Americans can't spell. They identify with people who are like them. They'll vote for people who are like them. The more they hear from Dems making fun of people like them, the more they'll reject the Dems' candidate.

Oh god not this again. That's such bullshit. Look, Obama is up in the polls, he's been up in the polls all year except for a few points where McCain managed to pull within the margin of error, and he's been way up since the start of his Convention. All this fear about how all Americans are pig-ignorant religious nutbag xenophobes is wearing a little thin. The average American doesn't fall for that bullshit. Now there certainly may be some below average people out there who will be fooled, and unfortunately they make up a key swing demographic: People to stupid to know what's going on. A lot of the campaign is tailored to them and it gives people the impression that the entire country is retarded.

But in fact it's just a key swing demographic, just like old people in Florida, Soccer Moms, etc.

Most Americans have made up their mind and Sarah Palin is not going to change it. It will have a huge motivational effect on the republican base, though, because she is a hardcore religious nutter, like Mike Huckabee
posted by delmoi at 12:13 PM on August 30, 2008 [4 favorites]

Palin Adds Right-Wing Cruelty To GOP Ticket
posted by homunculus at 12:20 PM on August 30, 2008

I know it was suggested far up in the thread but this "Hockey Mom President" idea is sounding better and better. I mean someone at Lifetime has to be smacking their forehead.

Geena Davis is Mackenzie Allen, a leftfield VP pick who becomes the first femaie president after the guy that picked her suddenly dies in office. Her arch-nemesis is, er, this dude.
posted by cillit bang at 12:21 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Tax the people with accountants, not wage earners who need new tires and brakes
posted by Brian B. at 2:58 PM on August 30 [+] [!]

Then you will be voting for Obama then in the fall? Since his tax-cut proposals favour wage earners far more than McCain's do.

However, you also don't seem to realise that any flat tax (as you propose) would benefit "people with accountants", at the detriment of "wage earners who need new tires and brakes".

How to tax people fairly? By having a progressive, tiered income tax whereby those who make more income (and thus have a higher proportion of their income as disposable income) pay a higher proportion of that income in taxes, with suitable deductions to recognize that people are individuals with individual situations and needs. It's a simple matter of arithmetic -- taking 15% from someone who has a disposable income of 15% is less fair than taking 15% from someone whose disposable income is 60% of the total. So why not take 5% from the first person, and 20% from the second? In both cases, you are taking 1/3 of their disposable income, whereas under a flat tax, one person would be paying 100% of their disposable income in tax, while the richer person who has more disposable income to start with pays only 1/4 of that in tax. Even in a progressive system, rich people have way more money than poor or middle class people, so you can't make any "incentive" argument against it.*

Funny enough, that would be a tax system like the one that exists in most first world countries, including the U.S. (to a degree). McCain's proposals would like to weaken that system at a time when the gov't is looking at bankruptcy in just a few decades, while Obama's would like to shore up government financing while offering tax cuts to the exact people you claim to care about.

* (Seriously - if anyone tries to make the argument that poor people are better off under current tax regimes, I want to see them live off minimum wage for a year. Until then, your words are like the quacking of birds. Not pretty song birds, but really uninformed and illogical birds.)
posted by jb at 12:25 PM on August 30, 2008 [5 favorites]

Your comment proves the point that Americans don't vote on facts.

They vote on preferences, which becomes a fact. The fact they never got the solution memo or the problem memo is more likely than not. Either way I don't support treating anyone like dummies, because educating is easier than misinforming, and the latter presumes they're being taken advantage of--the excuse of likely the motive. The New York Times withheld all that damaging information on Bush, in favor of Kerry, until after the election because they believed in their own corrupt superiority.

Good christ, generalize much? Accountants bad tires good?

Over your head it seems.
posted by Brian B. at 12:26 PM on August 30, 2008

Well, as long as we are doing anagrams, I favor 'sharia plan' and 'a sharp nail'.
posted by A-Train at 12:31 PM on August 30, 2008

jb: In November thousands or even millions of Americans who support tax cuts will be voting against the candidate who would give them a bigger tax cut because they refuse to inform themselves as to the actual facts of the two platforms.

I think it is quite simple. Obama wants tax cuts for some people and a tax increase for other people. McCain, on the other hand, wants tax cuts for everybody! Don't all of the hard-working people in this country deserve a tax cut? People who want tax cuts for everybody should vote for McCain! How's that not in their best interest?

Hey, the same argument worked for Bush, why shouldn't it work this time?
posted by sour cream at 12:33 PM on August 30, 2008

Just don't tax anyone for any income under the average line. Levy a flat tax on all income after that.

Flat taxes are effectively regressive and harder on people with lower incomes. And why should I work harder to pull myself up above the average line if it suddenly means I'll be taxed and have a cut to my take home pay?
posted by hydrophonic at 12:39 PM on August 30, 2008

Hard working people like... John McCain, who married into a fortune that financed his senate run and bought his eight-to-ten-depending-on-how-you-count luxury homes.
posted by kaibutsu at 12:48 PM on August 30, 2008

please dont die please dont die please dont die...
"Im not supposed to say this anymore, but people, i ran a town thats about as big as a Biden family reunion. ive been governor of alaska for 19 months. Yesterday, somoene was talking about the asian flu and i figured we were talking health care so i said something about the importance of pharmaceutical research and it turned out they meant a central banking crisis and aspirin wasnt going to help."
posted by madamjujujive at 12:55 PM on August 30, 2008 [10 favorites]

Then you will be voting for Obama then in the fall?

I live in a crimson red state, Obama doesn't need my vote anymore than some others do.

However, you also don't seem to realise that any flat tax (as you propose) would benefit "people with accountants", at the detriment of "wage earners who need new tires and brakes".

No. I realize the ins and outs of progressive tax brackets and marginal rates just fine, I've been correcting people for years on the giant misconception of its unfairness. So after wasting all that time, I realized that it would be easier to simply assume the logic that any money taken needs to be after subsistence spending first, and that creates the margin. Compare a 32% flat tax after a $40,000 household exemption and you'll see progressive rates. The 80K income pays 16% of total, and the 800K income exceeds 30% of total.
posted by Brian B. at 12:55 PM on August 30, 2008

Hard working people like... John McCain, who married into a fortune that financed his senate run and bought his eight-to-ten-depending-on-how-you-count luxury homes.

And don't forget: McCain's trophy wife bought him a private jet so that he could fly around the country and denounce his opponent as an elitist.
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 1:01 PM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

This. This, this, this. Average Americans have already proved that their votes are driven by gut feelings, not rationality.

I think you are right. Karl Rove, et al, know that many Americans harken back to the days of junior high school/high school student council and Prom Queen elections (e.g. With whom would you rather have a beer at the 'kegger.). Hence, the attempt to cast Obama as "effete, elite, intellectual, nerdy," etc. and McCain as "real guy, macho, maverick, P.O.W., 5^th from the bottom of his class at Annapolis." McCain/Rove have now introduced a woman, ex-beauty queen, working mother with a young child with disabilities and a son soon off to Iraq. It's about the "life stories" and how they get framed. It's all about "identity politics."

Unfortunately, the majority of us fall for it and do not dig deeper (as many do here on MeFi) -- and enter the voting booth, casting a ballot often in contrast to our best interests as individuals and collectively as a country.
posted by ericb at 1:09 PM on August 30, 2008

This is presumably meant to be charming

(and where the fuck is Bridget?)
posted by cillit bang at 1:16 PM on August 30, 2008

Unfortunately, the majority of us fall for it and do not dig deeper (as many do here on MeFi) -- and enter the voting booth, casting a ballot often in contrast to our best interests as individuals and collectively as a country.

I wouldn't really say the majority of us fall for it. 2000 was very, very close, and 2004 had a Dem running against an incumbent, popular president in wartime. Then the Dems take Congress in 2006, and that's before Obama managed to trash most pre-conceived notions (including my own) of what it takes to win, and is still holding a lead in the polls. As has been mentioned, there's always a certain chunk of the electorate who vote decidedly Lifetime channel. But I think the notion that the majority of America votes this way can be safely put to bed.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:28 PM on August 30, 2008

But I think the notion that the majority of America votes this way can be safely put to bed.

Point well taken. Yet, many do vote on the "identity" and the "life story" without really understanding the issues, etc. Let's hope it truly is different this time around.
posted by ericb at 1:31 PM on August 30, 2008

McCain's Decision: Game-changing Move or Gimmick?

“The case for Palin.
For McCain, the biggest thing Sarah Palin brings is buzz. It's something the campaign has been seeking for some time. In fact, it has bothered Team McCain that it doesn’t get the same ‘gee whiz’ kind of coverage that Obama gets. Palin changes that discrepancy -- for now. She also helps McCain re-introduce himself as a change-reform candidate. Palin's whole shtick in Alaska is reformer; it's what got her into the governors mansion. Indeed, the Palin pick may signal that the McCain folks have concluded that ‘experience’ as a message isn't a winning one, even though they spent the entire summer developing that argument. So they are hoping Palin helps redefine GOP ticket as change. What's more, she brings a historical first to the McCain campaign. And finally, there's Palin's gender, which the McCain folks hope reopens some of the Clinton-Obama wounds that the Dem convention seemed to heal.
The case against Palin.
The biggest negative about the pick is that on its face, it looks like a political gimmick, a political calculation. And McCain's supposed to be anything but a calculating or gimmicky pol. Indeed, as the Los Angeles Times wonders, isn’t McCain supposed to be the guy putting ‘country first’ and not playing politics? The fact that McCain doesn't know Palin and spent all but a couple of hours getting to know her before making his pick is going to invite A LOT of judgment criticism. The perception is going to be that McCain panicked and wanted to do something radical to shake up the race. Well, he may have shaken up the race, but at the cost of undermining his best asset: that he was ready to lead. This decision doesn't look like it was well thought out, even as Palin has made a tremendous first impression.
The vetting question.
Just how well was she vetted? There's going to be a race to define Palin, and while the McCain has bought time by shocking the world with the pick, there's going to be a lot of interest by the press to dig around in Alaska. And this ‘Troopergate’ story is perhaps just the beginning. What's more, since she isn't well known, any little thing could get blown up pretty quickly.”

posted by ericb at 1:36 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

What other country in the developed world produces beauty queens who hunt caribou and serve up a terrific moose stew? As an immigrant, I'm not saying I came to the United States purely to meet chicks like that, but it was certainly high on my list of priorities. And for the gun-totin' Miss Wasilla then to go on to become Governor while having five kids makes it an even more uniquely American story. Next to her resume, a guy who's done nothing but serve in the phony-baloney job of "community organizer" and write multiple autobiographies looks like just another creepily self-absorbed lifelong member of the full-time political class that infests every advanced democracy

The always amusing Mark Steyn. NB: Link goes to NRO, so if you have some principle about not going there, as I do about Daily Kos, don't click link.
posted by dawson at 1:55 PM on August 30, 2008

Regarding the teen-pregnancy rumors, the Democrats AND liberal websites need to stay far, far away from that one.

I agree 100% because even if it's true... I don't think it hurts her. I think people will see a mom trying to protect her daughter and grandson. I think the "OMG, HER TEENAGE DAUGHTER GOT KNOCKED-UP" sentiment gets lost in the sheer weirdness of the situation.
posted by kimdog at 2:16 PM on August 30, 2008

Regarding the teen-pregnancy rumors, the Democrats AND liberal websites need to stay far, far away from that one.

As Sarah Palin was recognized only as 'Miss Congenialty' in the 'Miss Alaska Beauty Contest,' I was second runner-up in my 7^th. Grade Poetry Contest. Hence, I offer you my take on the specious rumor regarding the five-month old child, Trig Palin.

What Child is This?

What child is this, who, laid to rest
On Sarah's lap, is sleeping?
Whom Repubs greet with anthems sweet,
While pollsters watch are keeping?
This, this is McCain’s one hope,
Whom operatives guard and Fox News sings:
Haste, haste to bring him forth,
The Babe, to slay Obama!

So bring him incest, gold, and beer,
Come NASCAR things to own just him,
The one from one (?), freedom rings,
Let loving hearts think he’s of her.
Raise, raise the song on high,
But isn’t he from Bristol’s thigh?
Joy, joy, for Trig is born,
The Babe, the Grandson of sweet Sarah!

posted by ericb at 2:22 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

I further support the "leave Brixton alone" sentiment. Appearing to attack the children of prominent politicians is still icky. I'm looking at you Mr. "Janet Reno was her father" McCain.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:24 PM on August 30, 2008

The much-smarter powers behind the party selected Palin for a purpose

That's not my sense at all. I think that the powers behind the party are sitting this one out and McCain is running the show. How else can you explain the flubs, the bizarre platform of running on Bush's economic plan, touting the Iraq war as won and otherwise offering no other policy proposals other than to snipe and snark at Obama.

If he wanted a serious woman politico as his running mate, he would have picked Kay Bailey Hutchison. Personally, I can't stand her, but she's a much more serious and sober choice than Palin. I suspect that Hutchison wanted nothing to do with him.

I really think his list was very short, only because a lot of prominent Republicans opted out of it. There's nothing to be gained from being his running mate. Barring any kind of major revelation about Obama in the next three months, he will surely lose, the only question left is by how much, and his running mate will be tainted forever.

I think that in Palin, he found someone with more ambition than brains (a kindred spirit in that way), and that it was 100% his own choice.
posted by psmealey at 2:28 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Next to her resume, a guy who's done nothing but serve in the phony-baloney job of "community organizer" and write multiple autobiographies looks like just another creepily self-absorbed lifelong member of the full-time political class that infests every advanced democracy

Spoken like a true member of the tax-cuts-for-me-first,-then-fuck-the-poor class.
posted by psmealey at 2:33 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

McCain's trophy wife bought him a private jet so that he could fly around the country and denounce his opponent as an elitist.

I think you have it backwards. When they married, McCain was the trophy husband.
posted by MegoSteve at 2:46 PM on August 30, 2008

It's simply absurd to think that anyone's sitting this one out. The presidency is arguably the most powerful office in the country, why wouldn't the Republicans have their best and brightest out front fighting to take it? Anyone talking about McCain's VP choice being a crazy mistake or his own folly is about as misinformed and ignorant of the issues as the people who will end up voting Republican this year against their own interests.

I'm as confident as anyone in the Obama team's organizational abilities, but I've learned never to underestimate the other team when it comes to campaigning.
posted by palidor at 2:52 PM on August 30, 2008

The presidency is arguably the most powerful office in the country, why wouldn't the Republicans have their best and brightest out front fighting to take it?

Well, clearly they don't. So, explain, please.
posted by psmealey at 2:55 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Also, my "misinformed and ignorant" comment isn't intended to be mean-spirited. I just get the feeling sometimes that there's a lot of overconfidence and glossing over the fact that people vote for many different reasons; it's not just about which candidate has the best solutions or is the most dignified. The point about Democrats treating voters as if they're intelligent when they're not can't be repeated enough (although I wouldn't say voters are idiots so much as they're ignorant).
posted by palidor at 3:02 PM on August 30, 2008

FOX News' Alan Colmes: Conservative Family Values.

"In her speech in Dayton today, Gov. Sarah Palin announced that she and her husband are celebrating their 20th wedding anniversary, which means they were married on August 29, 1988.

On April 20, 1989 – less than eight months after they eloped – their first son, Track, was born.

I think I can guess the real reason why they eloped, and it wasn’t to save money on an expensive wedding."

posted by ericb at 3:06 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Right; I've been sensing mainly confusion on the part of McCain's advisers over the pick. There are multiple quotes from aides that are the public-eye-friendlified version of 'WHAT. THE. FUCK. McCAIN?" There's also stuff like the Karl Rove clip criticizing Kaine that make the key strategists sound scarily flip-floppy in the immediate wake of this. I think this was McCain's personal doing - he decided to 'be the maverick' and not consult his people at all. The other people in the VP running sound like they're actively pissed. If the choice does end up going badly in the public eye, I think we can expect some good infighting within Camp McCain.

And the best response is, I think, that McCain is obviously rolling the dice here. We don't need a president who plays dice with the fate of the country.
posted by kaibutsu at 3:07 PM on August 30, 2008

I would agree with that to some degree. I think the bigger problem is not that McCain is so much a formidable candidate (he's, in fact, terrible... weaker than Dole, Dukakis and Kerry), it's that Obama is also running against the mainstream media. The media has, all summer long, been doing that very thing they did in 2000 and 2004 where they repeat rumor, innuendo, and spiteful remarks as though they have equal counterweight to his policy details.

The only thing that stands in the way of this really being a relatively easy victory for Obama is this point: the accusation always appears on Page 1, and the retraction/correction invariably appears on Page 4 in tiny type.
posted by psmealey at 3:08 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Anyone talking about McCain's VP choice being a crazy mistake or his own folly is about as misinformed and ignorant of the issues as the people who will end up voting Republican this year against their own interests.

Do you know something about Palin we don't? Is she really Karl Rove in a mask? Because I don't think people across the country are scratching their heads over this choice for nothing.

It's not like the Republicans are infallable or something, incapable of making poor choices that lead to election defeats, and we seriously need to get over this attitude that the Dems are somehow up against a formidable opponent just because he's a Republican. It's defeatist, for one, and contradictory to what's been going on in this country since 2006 to present. McCain's been floundering and bumbling all spring and summer, and then, true to his love of a crap shoot, decides to take a shot like this. There's a reason this move confuses people, and it's because for all intents and purposes it does look desperate. "But- but McCain is a Republican! Surely there must be some higher, mysterious, secret power at work that we're just not seeing." No, sometimes a bad move is just a bad move.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 3:09 PM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

Surprise? First Two National Polls Find Palin Gains LESS Support from Women.
posted by ericb at 3:09 PM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

I would argue the fact that (up until the Dem convention) the polls were tied shows that the Republicans are running a fine campaign. With Bush's approval ratings so low, an unpopular war going on, an uncertain economy, and so on, you would expect the opposition party to have a clear lead, and they don't.

It's almost as if, with all of the media coverage Obama's been getting this year, he's the incumbent. Using all of the "it's the Dem's to lose" talk, the Republicans have turned the campaign into a referendum on Obama, rather than on Bush, who has been mostly out of the picture since the campaign started.
posted by palidor at 3:12 PM on August 30, 2008

Could she be a political bridge builder?

Palin Repeatedly Professed Desire To Renew Federal Funding For ‘Bridge To Nowhere’
posted by ericb at 3:17 PM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

Palin On Iraq

"A reader has found some evidence that [Palin] has thought about foreign policy at some point in her 44 years. Drum roll, please:
'Alaska Business Monthly: We've lost a lot of Alaska's military members to the war in Iraq. How do you feel about sending more troops into battle, as President Bush is suggesting?

Palin: I've been so focused on state government, I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq. I heard on the news about the new deployments, and while I support our president, Condoleezza Rice and the administration, I want to know that we have an exit plan in place; I want assurances that we are doing all we can to keep our troops safe. Every life lost is such a tragedy. I am very, very proud of the troops we have in Alaska, those fighting overseas for our freedoms, and the families here who are making so many sacrifices.'
She heard about the surge, McCain's campaign centerpiece, on the news. Does she still favor an exit plan?

posted by ericb at 3:23 PM on August 30, 2008

I'm really not trying to be defeatist. Like I said, I have confidence in the Obama campaign's organizational abilities, which probably does more to win elections than VP picks or media smears.

My first reaction to McCain's choice was that it was a cynical grab for female and evangelical votes, and why wouldn't it work? If you were one of those groups and you were going to sit out the election, wouldn't it do a little to get you out to vote in November? I mean, I honestly don't know, but I really doubt that this was a random, last minute decision that no one but McCain wanted.

I do think there's strategy behind it, because like I said, this is a really high stakes game with a lot of money involved. No one is going to take any of it lightly.
posted by palidor at 3:24 PM on August 30, 2008

delmoi: "The average American doesn't fall for that bullshit. Now there certainly may be some below average people out there who will be fooled, and unfortunately they make up a key swing demographic: People to stupid to know what's going on. A lot of the campaign is tailored to them and it gives people the impression that the entire country is retarded.

But in fact it's just a key swing demographic, just like old people in Florida, Soccer Moms, etc."

Candidates Compete For Vital "Idgit" Vote
posted by Rhaomi at 3:28 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Well, clearly they don't. So, explain, please.

They need a moron on the ticket. Like Klang said, morons decide presidential elections in this country. And THE defining characteristic of the American Moron is this belief that we need an "average Joe" running the country. Like Bush.

See it's like this: Morons love to think they could run the country because all the real solutions to our problems don't take nuance or strategy. No. To the American Moron our solutions come from bold decisive "common sense" action. Self awareness, strategic analysis and corrective action are seen as a weekness for egg-heads.

And this, my friends, is why the American Morons have bad jobs, pathetic selfish consumer driven lives, and are the constant "victims" of history who blame everybody else for their problems.
posted by tkchrist at 3:33 PM on August 30, 2008 [6 favorites]

Accusing your opponents and their supporters of being idiots is not an effective electoral strategy.
posted by EarBucket at 3:36 PM on August 30, 2008 [3 favorites]

Also, the media response to the pick plays right into the whole maverick thing, thus reinforcing McCain's image for undecided voters. And, as said upthread (probably a thousand times), Palin's "neighborly" image will prevent Dems from attacking hard because it can be perceived as a slight against the voters that identify with her. And we know who the sexy librarians are going to be voting for now...
posted by palidor at 3:40 PM on August 30, 2008

I already trademarked the phrase, "Don't blame me, I voted for Obama." So don't try stealin' it. Yeah, I'm lookin' your direction.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:41 PM on August 30, 2008

And we know who the sexy librarians are going to be voting for now

Obama?
posted by cillit bang at 3:52 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

I know all of the "idiot" talk comes out of a very real frustration with how some people vote (and act, but that's a whole other thousand-comment thread), but it gets us nowhere indeed. Maybe it's because I grew up in a small town in Ohio, and was surrounded by your typical beer-chugging Nascar anti-intellectuals, but eventually I realized that hating on this (very large) group of people does absolutely nothing to further your cause, and most of the time just alienates you from constructive efforts to inform and educate. I get frustrated as well, but assuming someone behaves the way they do because they're an idiot is pretty simple-minded, which is indeed ironic!
posted by palidor at 3:56 PM on August 30, 2008

Hate to tell you guys this but putting her on the ticket has electrified the Republicans and church folk here. I mean, they are stoked.
posted by konolia at 3:59 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

There's a reason this move confuses people, and it's because for all intents and purposes it does look desperate. "But- but McCain is a Republican! Surely there must be some higher, mysterious, secret power at work that we're just not seeing." No, sometimes a bad move is just a bad move.

It appears that McCain had Joe Lieberman as his first choice, but Rove squelched the idea, presumably because a pro-choice Jew would not make the GOP base happy, no matter how hawkish he is. I think Rove required McCain to have an anti-abortion running mate, but that McCain had some leeway in who he could pick, based on personal chemistry. (Practically speaking, the short-tempered McCain is not going to be able to campaign effectively with somebody he can't stand.) It looks like McCain wanted a choice that was a demographic game-changer, which means he needed somebody nonwhite or a white woman. If he picked nonwhite males who oppose abortion, such as Bobby Jindal or Alan Keyes, he would undercut mobilization by racists and nativists who hate Obama for being "different." So the choices left are Republican white women. The problem for McCain is that the most competent pool of potential female VP candidates for the GOP are largely pro-choice (Kay Bailey Hutchison, Olympia Snowe, Carly Fiorina, Susan Collins, Jodi Rell, etc. etc.). Palin was probably one of the only possible choices left if you impose both Rove's condition (no pro-choicers) and McCain's condition (need an unconventional choice to "shake things up") on the selection process.

I think another simple factor is also at play. I think McCain simply ran out of time. The rules of major party conventions require a vice-presidential nominee to be selected before the convention is over. (That's why George McGovern's choice of Thomas Eagleton in 1972 proved to be such a disaster. Read Nixonland if you want more info on the backroom dealings.) Running out of time certainly provides a plausible explanation for why McCain selected Palin after only meeting her once. In addition, McCain made his decision, because he wanted to preempt coverage of Obama's acceptance speech. The gambit worked in the short-term, but I think Obama's speech might have intimidated other GOP politicians from taking on the VP job. Even the most minimal vetting should have found major drawbacks to choosing Palin. Even if they decided to pick Palin despite the drawbacks, better vetting would have allowed them to anticipate some of the negative coverage already coming out about her.

It's a simple analogy. Palin:McCain::Eagleton:McGovern
posted by jonp72 at 3:59 PM on August 30, 2008 [11 favorites]

Marisa Stole The Precious Thing: "Dick and Jane American would never make a black man a viable candidate" - "Dick and Jane American would never vote for a guy with 'Hussein' for a middle name" - "Dick and Jane American in Iowa are going to put some old white guy in the forefront, Obama's done."

And do you honestly think it's "intellectual snobbery" to go after someone's lack of experience?

I'm talking about how Dick and Jane will react to the rank-and-file Democrats sneering at Palin for having been a beauty contestant and not having a degree from a "respectable" college. Not about their reactions to Obama himself. Of course going after Palin's lack of experience isn't intellectual snobbery. I hope to God that Obama, Biden, and rank and file Democrats hammer away at it.

My point was that quite a few rank and file Obama supporters seem to have trouble keeping sneers out of the critiques they're trumpeting. Obama's charisma, intelligence, and grace has earned him a historic place in this election narrative, and by virtue of being unprecedented, that place is tenuous. The tone, as well as the substance, of his supporters' critiques will affect whether people on the fence will want to vote for him.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 3:59 PM on August 30, 2008

By the way, can we can the comments saying she was picked to garner the moron vote?

I think this woman has brains. For those of you who think she is an idiot re such things as foreign policy-please remember that when you are governing a STATE and being a mom at the same time, you tend to focus on that which is important to what you are doing. She needed to be informed on the things pertaining to the job she was doing. This was not a woman seeking to be chosen to be vice president. This was a woman who was doing HER JOB and concentrating on THAT.

Remember also that the other work she has done-such as the commercial fishing-gives her a real perspective on what is important to the average American. That is a perspective that a lot of people inside the Beltway truly lack.

Does this woman have weaknesses as a VP choice? Yes, of course. But she does have strengths. And I for one can't wait to hear what she has to say as she hits the campaign trail.
posted by konolia at 4:08 PM on August 30, 2008

cybercoitus: It's a good point, and I hope Obama's supporters make a point of snickering amongst themselves and following the lead of the campaign when it comes to Palin. I mean, the joke ultimately makes itself, and provides an excellent way to talk about McCain - his age, judgement, and temperament, in particular - without directly attacking Palin. She's irrelevant media-hoopla unless McCain bites it during his first term, in which case he would have fucked the country with his lack of foresight.
posted by kaibutsu at 4:13 PM on August 30, 2008

Enyone hoo dont vote like me is a idiot.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 4:19 PM on August 30, 2008

1000th comment!
posted by captain cosine at 4:20 PM on August 30, 2008

This was not a woman seeking to be chosen to be vice president. This was a woman who was doing HER JOB and concentrating on THAT.

Then she has a lot of catching up to do, doesn't she?
posted by krinklyfig at 4:24 PM on August 30, 2008

And I for one can't wait to hear what she has to say as she hits the campaign trail.

That makes two of us. My God, the gaffes she is going to make. I'm not saying she's stupid, only that no person on Earth can go from zero to presidential in the amount of time she has. Good gravy.
posted by Bookhouse at 4:24 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

As Bush contemplates taking the stage at the RNC on Monday, Hurricane Gustav bears down on New Orleans, due to arrive on...Monday. Odd coincidence? Bizarrely appropriate twist of fate? Talk about a party facing serious headwinds in their pursuit of the White House!

I'm anti-hurricane, and definitely anti-hurricane-fucking-over-people. That said, my Democratic palate finds the taste of this eerie juxtaposition of events to be rather...delicious. What's the plan? Bush cancels, the governor of Louisiana cancels, and we watch four days of split screen, with half of the screen showing sober-faced bummed-out-looking conservatives and the other half showing a hurricane blowing away New Orleans (and any chances the Republicans might have thought they had)? Is that the plan?

I hear the winds of change a-blowing, and this time they're blowing with hurricane force!
posted by jamstigator at 4:31 PM on August 30, 2008

Putting. Country. Last.
posted by homunculus at 4:35 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

For those of you who think she is an idiot re such things as foreign policy-please remember that when you are governing a STATE and being a mom at the same time

There are quite few a mothers who keep up with current events, including foreign policy, who would find this characterization insulting.
posted by jonp72 at 4:39 PM on August 30, 2008 [9 favorites]

Hate to tell you guys this but putting her on the ticket has electrified the Republicans and church folk here. I mean, they are stoked.

Hate to tell you guys this but putting her on the ticket has electrified the Democrats and educated folk here. I mean, they are stoked. She'll sink the Republicans this election!
posted by ericb at 4:39 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

She's an interesting choice, and only time will tell the outcome, but there's no doubt she's a gamble. The Republicans can take that chance, because they've never been ahead in this race. The pick of McCain was something of a retirement gift, IMO, and the party doesn't necessarily expect him to win, and he doesn't really have the hard right in his corner. If he loses, they figure, at least he'll shut up about running for president, and the most conservative forces want him done with, though they'll take a puppet. So, yeah, a hail Mary type strategy. I don't think that's a controversial observation.

The realists within the party figure this one was lost years ago and are not happy today, but hope to put Bush behind them as quickly as possible and rebuild the party with a different direction. Rove and his ilk are powerful, however, and they will have a hard time letting go of their populist leanings. If McCain loses, the realists have an opening, though it's a bit odd because he used to be more in the realist camp than he is today. And the neocons are not really popular anymore with the realists and party elders, so this feels like a last shot before rebuilding.

The Democrats, for their part, need to remember that McCain still could win, particularly if the Republicans can create the dominant narrative, and Palin does help with that. But they can only do this if we never get below the surface, and I don't think the dynamics of the national conversation are the same as they were in 2004.
posted by krinklyfig at 4:42 PM on August 30, 2008

There are quite few a mothers who keep up with current events, including foreign policy, who would find this characterization insulting

Are any of those mothers you are invoking women who are also at present sitting governors of a state? Who one would think would be concentrating on the issues and problemsolving relevant to said state?

I keep up with current events. I even did it while working and parenting three small children.

But I was NOT an elected chief executive of a state.
posted by konolia at 4:45 PM on August 30, 2008

As Bush contemplates taking the stage at the RNC on Monday, Hurricane Gustav bears down on New Orleans, due to arrive on...Monday. Odd coincidence?

No. No coincidence at all. Like Katrina it's all because of the filthy gays and their annual Southern Decadence parade.

No comment from Republicans Larry Craig (whose bathroom stall at the St.Paul/Minneapolis Airport this weekend is considered a Republican Shrine to hot man-sex), Mark Foley, Rev. Ted Haggard, Bob Allen and Glenn Murphy Jr.
posted by ericb at 4:46 PM on August 30, 2008

Remember also that the other work she has done-such as the commercial fishing-gives her a real perspective on what is important to the average American. That is a perspective that a lot of people inside the Beltway truly lack.

Really? You're including commercial fishing as part of her resume? Republicans generally don't count Obama's effective record as a community organizer, editor of the Harvard Law Review, professor of constitutional law, or his 7 years as a state legislator. And none of these things were "inside the Beltway." You can't just change the goalposts anytime you feel like it, because it's convenient for the candidate you favor.
posted by jonp72 at 4:47 PM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

Presidential scholars say she appears to be the least experienced, least credentialed person to join a major-party ticket in the modern era.

" “It would be one thing if she had only been governor for a year and a half, but prior to that she had not had major experience in public life,” said Dallek of Palin. “The fact that he would have to go to somebody who is clearly unqualified to be president makes Obama look like an elder statesman.”

And Alaska is a much smaller state than Illinois, the political base of Barack Obama, whom Republicans have repeatedly criticized for being inexperienced, having served nearly four years in the U.S. Senate after eight in the Illinois state Senate."
posted by cashman at 4:49 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

I keep up with current events. I even did it while working and parenting three small children.

But I was NOT an elected chief executive of a state.

Stop the anti-intellectualism. If somebody has enough talent to get elected governor of a state, they should keep up with current events too, especially if they're on the short list for the second-highest job in the country. That they choose not to do so, because they want to pander to the anti-intellectual and parochial prejudices of people in their own home state is not a virtue in a VP candidate.
posted by jonp72 at 4:50 PM on August 30, 2008 [6 favorites]

Capnjoy on Palin: my first reaction, honestly, was kind of giddy. i thought the choice showed desperation & would straightjacket mccain's offense against obama.

which is all true.

but a few hours later, i'm finding the choice depressing. not only because of it's based on an insultingly reductive understanding of female voters (samantha bee's piece on this was hilarious, btw). but because, in these very early hours, the media seems to be buying the mccain campaign's line about palin & obama's "inexperience" being comparable.

which is, of course, total BS.

barack obama is preparED to be president because he has dedicated himself to preparING. he's an astute and supple thinker who has applied himself to understanding the complexities of the issues facing America and to formulating forward-thinking policy in response. my favorite illustration of his competence is the lead from this article from the jerusalem post.

sarah palin has not prepared herself to step onto the national stage. in 2007, she admitted she had no opinions about iraq. she hasn't spent the time in-between studying up: her remarks on iraq in a time mag interview from 2 weeks ago she are meandering and baffling. her signature domestic policy platform seems to be a short-sighted embrace of drilling, a stance that's obviously inadequate to our long-term energy needs.

andrew sullivan is right: mccain's showing a profound misunderstanding of his opponent. and i hope the media isn't suckered into making the same mistake.
posted by chuckdarwin at 4:53 PM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

I keep up with current events. I even did it while working and parenting three small children.

But I was NOT an elected chief executive of a state.

So? Am I supposed to pity her?

Hey, good for her for working so hard and being accomplished. But I haven't heard anything from her that gives me confidence she could run this country. We've just met her, but I don't see the spark there, the feeling you get about some people that they will do great (or at least hugely influential) things.
posted by krinklyfig at 4:55 PM on August 30, 2008

jonp72: You can't just change the goalposts anytime you feel like it, because it's convenient for the candidate you favor.

Sure you can. Haven't you paid any attention these past 8 years?
posted by sour cream at 5:03 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Really? You're including commercial fishing as part of her resume? Republicans generally don't count Obama's effective record as a community organizer, editor of the Harvard Law Review, professor of constitutional law, or his 7 years as a state legislator. And none of these things were "inside the Beltway." You can't just change the goalposts anytime you feel like it, because it's convenient for the candidate you favor.

The fact you just wrote that lets me know you missed my point entirely.

If somebody has enough talent to get elected governor of a state, they should keep up with current events too, especially if they're on the short list for the second-highest job in the country

Do you have any evidence that she honestly thought she had a snowball's chance in hell of getting on this ticket before a few days ago?

The difference between her and a lot of folks in politics is that this woman was not looking to the next rung in the ladder instead of concentrating on the job at hand. (*cough* John Edwards *cough*) I find that refreshing.

And I have a feeling there are others who will feel the same.
posted by konolia at 5:03 PM on August 30, 2008

The information that her daughter Bristol is the actual mother of Trig, the "fifth child" of Palin is getting some legs. I am staying tuned. Interesting times ahead.
posted by trii at 5:07 PM on August 30, 2008

I would argue the fact that (up until the Dem convention) the polls were tied shows that the Republicans are running a fine campaign.

I would argue the fact that the polls were tied is evidence that the polls are a tool of the media used to create "excitement" and "competition" and "news" where there is none.

I mean, seriously, half your population is so dumbfuck retarded that they're going to vote for McCain? I really can not believe that. The survival of the country is at stake and even though it would really suck to be a Republican that has to eat his pride and vote for Obama this one-and-only-time, it would really suck to be a Republican who is responsible for putting McCain into the Presidency and the US further down the toilet.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:13 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

1000th comment!

A thousand points of blight...
posted by mazola at 5:14 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Do you have any evidence that she honestly thought she had a snowball's chance in hell of getting on this ticket before a few days ago?

That's not an argument in her favor!
posted by Bookhouse at 5:19 PM on August 30, 2008 [7 favorites]

Really? You're including commercial fishing as part of her resume? Republicans generally don't count Obama's effective record as a community organizer, editor of the Harvard Law Review, professor of constitutional law, or his 7 years as a state legislator. And none of these things were "inside the Beltway." You can't just change the goalposts anytime you feel like it, because it's convenient for the candidate you favor.

The fact you just wrote that lets me know you missed my point entirely.

I think I got your point just fine. Before picking Palin, McCain insisted that Obama did not have enough conventional Washington experience to be president. On the other hand, McCain is also insistent that the best possible person to succeed him as Commander-in-Chief in the event of his death or incapacitation is somebody who has both less Washington D.C. experience than Obama and less experience in state government as well. This is especially galling, because experience has been a main theme of McCain's campaign, while Obama's campaign stresses the importance of judgment over experience. If Obama has non-Washington experience, you see that as proof of his unfitness for the job. But when you point to Palin's non-Washington experience, you call it "refreshing."
posted by jonp72 at 5:19 PM on August 30, 2008 [7 favorites]

Palin Was Excited That Obama Was Edging Ahead Of McCain In Alaska

Before she was running against him, Sarah Palin--the governor of Alaska and now the Republican candidate for Vice-President of the United States--thought it was pretty neat that Barack Obama was edging ahead of John McCain in her usually solidly red state. After all, she said, Obama's campaign was using the same sort of language that she had in her gubernatorial race. "The theme of our campaign was 'new energy,' " she said recently. "It was no more status quo, no more politics as usual, it was all about change. So then to see that Obama--literally, part of his campaign uses those themes, even, new energy, change, all that, I think, O.K., well, we were a little bit ahead on that." She also noted, "Something's kind of changing here in Alaska, too, for being such a red state on the Presidential level. Obama's doing just fine in polls up here, which is kind of wigging people out, because they're saying, 'This hasn't happened for decades that in polls the D' "--the Democratic candidate--" 'is doing just fine.' To me, that's indicative, too. It's the no-more-status-quo, it's change."
posted by cashman at 5:19 PM on August 30, 2008 [5 favorites]

I mean, really, konolia. Would you want support taking someone completely out of the blue and putting them in charge of, say, the disposal of nuclear waste? Or, for that matter, in charge of a nuclear weapons stockpile? It belittles the importance of the job and the importance of this moment in our nation's history to say that this person is in any way ready to lead the country. Or that she even has a chance to be in 140 days. Even if not actively gunning for the Presidency, people who want to be a part of national politics should make some effort to prepare for their part once they get there. This means knowing the problems of their (NATIONAL) constituencies and, if looking for any kind of internationally important role, doing at least some reading on the state of world affairs. Even if you do scoff at ambition, I hope you don't scoff at the notion of picking people qualified for important positions. (And yes, given McCain's age and medical history, the vice presidency is an important position.)

She had chosen her place in the world: she could have been an excellent Alaskan statesperson for the rest of her years, and/or transitioned onto the national stage with a bit more time. But now she has accepted a nomination that makes her a strange fish in extremely unfamiliar waters. She has CHOSEN to accept this, and either doesn't realize or has chosen to ignore her lack of preparation and qualifications. I'm not sure which speaks worse of her, frankly.
posted by kaibutsu at 5:27 PM on August 30, 2008 [4 favorites]

For those of you who think she is an idiot re such things as foreign policy-please remember that when you are governing a STATE and being a mom at the same time, you tend to focus on that which is important to what you are doing.

In all fairness, her state has a population equal to only two thirds of the COUNTY I live in. Shoot, Obama's district when he was in the IL senate had a higher population by over a hundred thousand people. Most governors of far more populous and demanding states seem to be able to keep up with basic current events and political news.
posted by Kellydamnit at 5:27 PM on August 30, 2008

jonp72 made a very astute point, konolia.
posted by agregoli at 5:31 PM on August 30, 2008

It appears konolia and her church gang are single-issue voters. Having an anti-abortionist as a potential VP makes the giddy with excitement.

Single issue voters are the death of the country. There are a dozen far more important issues than the one of Roe vs. Wade remaining status-quo for another four years. The end of the USA as a viable nation is creeping closer: the economic ruin, the endless mid-East war, and the rumblings of Russia are all things that can make or break the USA. Abortion is piffle by comparision.

Everyone needs to vote smarter this time around. Eat humble pie, put Obama into place for four years, purge and scour the corrupt Republican party, and come around in 2012 with a good candidate. It is the one and only sensible course of action.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:31 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Do you have any evidence that she honestly thought she had a snowball's chance in hell of getting on this ticket before a few days ago?

The difference between her and a lot of folks in politics is that this woman was not looking to the next rung in the ladder instead of concentrating on the job at hand. (*cough* John Edwards *cough*) I find that refreshing.

This website has been pushing a "Draft Sarah Palin for VP" campaign since 2007. In addition, online prediction markets showed a lot of enthusiasm about Palin in the months before McCain made the selection, although Romney and Pawlenty often traded for higher share prices. I agree that Palin would have been reasonable in thinking that her selection as VP would be implausible, but she should have had some inkling that it was a possibility, however slim. You'd think she'd want to be somewhat prepared, if only to make sure she didn't make her political party look foolish. That's not ambition. That's just being prepared.

Answer me this. Would you be gushing about how refreshing Sarah Palin is and making so many rationalizations for her weak qualifications if she were a pro-choice agnostic?
posted by jonp72 at 5:32 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Wow ... there is some serious crazy going on in this thread. A few thoughts:

1) There is not going to be a "bait and switch". There is no secret Old White Guy they're going to roll out a few weeks before the election. It's an insane idea, and would make them look like idiots. Palin really is the VP candidate. Really.

2) She has both her strengths and her weaknesses. But there are strengths. It seems obvious to me that she was picked to appeal to both right-wingers and independents, which she does, and maybe pick up some disaffected Clinton supporters in the bargain if they're lucky. Try to think of another candidate who does all that at once. It's not easy.

3) Don't assume that she will be a gaffe machine a la Dan Quayle. She might be. She might not be. Dan Quayle was a drag on the ticket (and he was, even though they won) because he was an idiot, not because he was inexperienced. Do not assume that she will be an idiot. Too many people are assuming that, and if she proves to be a reasonably good campaigner after all, the press will treat her as golden because of it.

4) However, she does have her drawbacks. Her lack of experience leaves her open to attack, and might (*might*) result in her looking like she doesn't know much about some important issues. The ongoing ethics scandal might (*might*) blow up in her face. Her choice does seem to mitigate the attacks on Obama's experience, but not entirely -- she is running for VP, not president.

But honestly ...

Whether she's a good pick or not is going to depend almost entirely on how she does on the campaign trail. All this speculation beforehand on how she's going to be received is just that ... speculation. She could be a drag on the ticket. She could be a shot in the arm for the ticket. But we don't know because, unlike Biden, she is an unknown quantity.

Wait and see, people. Don't bet for or against her until you've seen her run for awhile.
posted by kyrademon at 5:40 PM on August 30, 2008 [6 favorites]

By the way, can we can the comments saying she was picked to garner the moron vote?

I think this woman has brains.

Why on earth would you think those things don't go together?

Remember also that the other work she has done-such as the commercial fishing-gives her a real perspective on what is important to the average American.

So you're saying that what's important to the average American is commercial fishing, beauty pageants, and running small towns into debt. Gotcha.

I'm curious how on earth you would think that commercial fishing, of all things, would help one to understand where the average American is coming from.

A job that only 2881 people in the US actually held in 2005 helps you understand what's important to normal people.

Uh-huh.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:43 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

If someone is campaigning for the presidency or vice presidency, there's an extra twist. That person has to have a line of argument to offer on any conceivable issue. Quick, without pausing in the next ninety seconds, tell me what you think about: the balance of relations between Taiwan and mainland China, and exactly what signals we're sending to Hamas, and what we think about Russia's role in the G-8 and potentially in NATO, and where North Korea stands on its nuclear pledges -- plus Iran while we're at it, plus the EU after the Irish vote, plus cap-and-trade as applied to India and China, and what's the right future for South Ossetia; and let's not even start on domestic issues.
posted by EarBucket at 5:44 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

I would argue the fact that the polls were tied is evidence that the polls are a tool of the media used to create "excitement" and "competition" and "news" where there is none.

I agree that the polls are used as a tool in the media narrative, which then affects how polls are responded to, as a sort of feedback loop, but you can't possibly believe that all of the independent polling groups are in league with the media to manufacture the numbers, can you?

All I'm saying is that the McCain campaign has been successful in making the election a referendum on Obama, and that they should not be underestimated. They keep up the attacks and put the Democrats in a defensive position, which is valuable in that it controls the media narrative. The polls reflect their success.

I'm a proud Obama supporter, and volunteered for his campaign last week here in Ohio, so I look forward to doing what I can in the next couple of months to get him elected. But I try to hold a more nuanced view and accept the Republican strengths for what they are. Maybe it's irrelevant to see it in those terms because I'm not a campaign strategist, and I should just join the noise machine, I don't know.
posted by palidor at 5:48 PM on August 30, 2008

Palin booed for mentioning Hillary Clinton
posted by jjoye at 5:49 PM on August 30, 2008

So you're saying that what's important to the average American is commercial fishing, beauty pageants, and running small towns into debt. Gotcha.

No, what I AM saying is that she and her husband WERE the average American. She is no elitist looking down from an intellectual ivory tower. She was no child of privilege born with the proverbial silver spoon. One thing this woman will never do is talk down to America.

She IS America.

(and as to single issue voting-of course I am thrilled with her position re abortion. But I am equally thrilled with her fight against corruption which made her enemies with leaders in her own party. Remember, I am no stranger to the innards of Party politics. What she has managed to accomplish while making the party functionaries unhappy is quite stunning. )
posted by konolia at 5:54 PM on August 30, 2008

For those of you who think she is an idiot re such things as foreign policy-please remember that when you are governing a STATE and being a mom at the same time, you tend to focus on that which is important to what you are doing.

Other governors with kids seem to be conversant with foreign policy.

For a governor from a coastal and border state to be unfamiliar with foreign policy seems downright baffling.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:54 PM on August 30, 2008

2 Top Alaska Newspapers Question Palin's Fitness.
posted by ericb at 5:54 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

People Magazine: "Do You Feel Ready To Be A Heartbeat Away From The Presidency?"

Palin: "Absolutely. Yup, Yup..."
posted by ericb at 5:57 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin In Pennsylvania: ''It's Great To See Another Part Of The Country."
posted by ericb at 6:00 PM on August 30, 2008

No, what I AM saying is that she and her husband WERE the average American.

Then you're saying that the average American wins beauty pageants and holds down astonishingly rare jobs? That being married to a commercial fisherman makes her better able to understand what office workers and retail salespeople and such go through?

Uh-huh.

She was no child of privilege born with the proverbial silver spoon.

As opposed to who exactly?

I often get annoyed with five fresh fish's constant YOU MUST DO BETTER THAN THIS AMERICA routine, but... geez.

You really can't see that her life has almost nothing in common with the lives of average Americans? Really? You honestly think that Average Joe is out there in his catcherboat headed to the factory ship, not pushing paper in an 8-5 or hawking retail goods or building houses? Really?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:04 PM on August 30, 2008

Do you have any evidence that she honestly thought she had a snowball's chance in hell of getting on this ticket before a few days ago?

It doesn't matter why she's not prepared, only that she is. This isn't a high school algebra test. This is the potential Head of State and Commander-in-Chief of the most powerful country the world has ever seen.
posted by dirigibleman at 6:08 PM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

Do you have any evidence that she honestly thought she had a snowball's chance in hell of getting on this ticket before a few days ago?

The difference between her and a lot of folks in politics is that this woman was not looking to the next rung in the ladder instead of concentrating on the job at hand. (*cough* John Edwards *cough*) I find that refreshing.

Hit the nail on the head! She was being down to earth and practical. She wasn't all high and mighty, wasting time doing all that research, formulating policy strategies and following the issues a VP ought to, because who woulda thunk? So now she's totally unprepared for the monstrous job she's applying for, and I find that refreshing.

Indulgent sarcasm aside, I don't doubt she's a smart lady. But if someone asked me, out of nowhere, "Hey, wanna be Vice-President?" I'd respond "Yeah! Well, actually no, I don't think I can do that. Can I take a raincheck though?" She answered, "Hey what the hell. I'll pick it up as I go along," which would be an awesome new campaign slogan. She was justfied in focusing only on her state. She had her name in the running as a career/name recognition strategy, not a crime. She however accepted the nomination.

Would you box with Mike Tyson in 140 days?
Would you perform open heart surgery in 140 days?
Would you pilot an Airbus 380 in 140 days?
posted by damo at 6:09 PM on August 30, 2008 [5 favorites]

"Pro-life"?

Abortion is a non-issue, at least as far as national and international politics goes. Perhaps it's a sign of the insularity of a lot of the United States, I don't know. I mean, I don't know whether the United States is really as insular as it seems to be. Though it seems to be autistically so in places.

The United States is an imperial power in decline, in that difficult stage before the next imperial power really manifests itself (everybody is saying China, but I'm not sure). It is theoretically possible to negotiate with the situation to get out with some dignity intact, but it takes diplomacy and tact (and even with very skilled diplomats, my own country left all manner of dreadfulness across its own former possessions and had a tough time getting used to its reduced status), whereas for the last eight years the U.S. has been led by an oligarchy who have pissed away its money, the considerable goodwill generated by the 9/11 attacks, the lives of its young people (and the people of other countries) and the last of its international political reputation, largely (as far as I can tell), to stuff the wallets of oil barons and war profiteers. McCain represents a continuation of that policy of self-abuse.

It's not a question of left or right: Bush has been a catastrophe for your country. McCain will continue that catastrophe all the way down into the toilet. Obama... might not be a disaster, I don't know. Possibly not a disaster is the best you can hope for at the moment.

With the stakes as they are, though, how a candidate feels about abortion is as relevant as how they feel about traffic violations or littering.

(Actually, Obama looks like the real deal from over here. But then so did Blair for a while.)
posted by Grangousier at 6:10 PM on August 30, 2008 [17 favorites]

Single issue voters are the death of the country. There are a dozen far more important issues than the one of Roe vs. Wade remaining status-quo for another four years.

Well, the way that the republicans plan on overturning Roe v. Wade is by placing conservative judges on the bench in the mold of Scalia, Alito, Roberts and Thomas. That kind of thing would have wide-ranging consequences far beyond abortion.
posted by delmoi at 6:12 PM on August 30, 2008

She is no elitist looking down from an intellectual ivory tower.

That's too bad. Those people are really good at running things.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 6:14 PM on August 30, 2008 [8 favorites]

Undecideds don't like her.

Would you box with Mike Tyson in 140 days?
Would you perform open heart surgery in 140 days?
Would you pilot an Airbus 380 in 140 days?

Yeah. Oh, and while you're preparing to do these things, you will be appearing at campaign events and flying all over the country.
posted by Bookhouse at 6:16 PM on August 30, 2008

Would you box with Mike Tyson in 140 days? ... Would you perform open heart surgery in 140 days? ... Would you pilot an Airbus 380 in 140 days?

Fuck, yeah! I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night!
posted by ericb at 6:18 PM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

And traffic violations kill a lot of people. But they don't bring down empires.
posted by Grangousier at 6:19 PM on August 30, 2008

I'm sure konolia's comments will be met with much restraint as abortion, the religious issue that it really is, is futile to discuss in any sort of logical manner (especially on the Internet).
posted by palidor at 6:19 PM on August 30, 2008

One thing this woman will never do is talk down to America.

She IS America.

"The times are too serious, the stakes are too high for this same partisan playbook. So let us agree that patriotism has no party. I love this country, and so do you, and so does John McCain.

The men and women who serve in our battlefields may be Democrats and Republicans and independents, but they have fought together, and bled together, and some died together under the same proud flag. They have not served a red America or a blue America; they have served the United States of America.

So I’ve got news for you, John McCain: We all put our country first." --Barack Obama

America is bigger than all of us.
posted by jonp72 at 6:21 PM on August 30, 2008 [5 favorites]

Enyone hoo dont vote like me is a idiot.

I'm just using this as an example of some fucking dumb-ass knee-jerk contrarian reductive thinking that is infuriating about Metafilter. The comment or the commenter themselves may not be. But I'm still using it.

And here is my point:

Yes. Anybody that voted for Bush in 2004 was either a complete god damned moron or had some vested financial interest in continuing the most obviously disastrous "mal-competent" policies in modern US history. AND THE REPUBLICANS KNEW THAT. The mobilizing issues: Flag burning? Gay marriage? Immigration?

Are you fucking kidding me?

The Republican party of the last twenty five years has deliberately and meticuoulsy created a climate of manufactured stupidity in this country. The destruction of public education, conflating creation myth with science, and the elimination of public service as a virtue. The promotion of selfishness and intolerance as values.

All this was done in order to push legislation that no thinking person (who is not of the entrenched power establishment) would ever consider. Old school Republicans, William Buckley/Barry Goldwater Republicans, were a dying breed the new republican, particularly of the last ten years, is a reactionary simpleton living in a mythical America who repeatedly act against thier own long term self interest.

Fuck this mamby-pamby tip toeing around the truth. These fuckers ARE stupid. Pretending they are not is not going to help us. You want to educate you have to identify the problem. These dangerous dip shits are not going to educate themselves.

Wake up. The stupidity level in this country has just about reached an unrecoverable critical mass. I think McCain is gonna win. I do. God I hope not. But this Polly Anna attitude pretending "hey, it's just a different point of view, man" is frigg'n cultural suicide. Progressives better wake up and stay the fuck on message and be ruthless or this country is lost for another two or three generations. And by then you can say hello to the new Third Word America.
posted by tkchrist at 6:23 PM on August 30, 2008 [34 favorites]

She was no child of privilege born with the proverbial silver spoon.

Such as George W. Bush, John McCain and Cindy Hensley McCain, amirite?
posted by ericb at 6:25 PM on August 30, 2008 [3 favorites]

One thing this woman will never do is talk down to America.

Oh PAH-LEEEZE.

Her very existence on the ticket is an god damned insult. It's basically a cynical admission that the base constituency of the Republican party are complete idiots.
posted by tkchrist at 6:27 PM on August 30, 2008 [9 favorites]

I've been stuck at home a bit for the past couple of days waiting on stuff from a client, with a lot more internet time than I've had in a while, so I have spent more time investigating the Palin choice than I would have expected.
I gotta say, this is a very cynical move by the McCain crowd.

She probably excels at the more ceremonial duties of being chief executive, is good at knowing the state reps and senators and delegates well to her staff, but I am reminded of our present president by her comfort in what she does not know.

The quotes cited above regarding the actual job duties of the Vice president and the state of the Iraq war are indicative of a very incurious mind. Hey, I got kids and three clients right now that are like having three jobs, no spouse for back up and still pay attention to world affairs. I listen to the BBC World Service read the New York Times and talk to intelligent people who don't always have the same point of view I have.

I'm not getting a sense of her really being up to the job. She isn't an idiot - she came across fairly well on Charlie Rose - but not up to being a heartbeat away. Look what happened to Bush. He had to rely on others to fill in the overwhelming gaps in his knowledge (remember in an 2000 interview he did not know who Parvez Musharruf was) and so was easily pushed into the debacle we're in now by the neo-cons.

Andrew Sullivan nails it with Putting Country Last

I'd like to think that the electorate would see this for the cynical crap move that it is, but i remember being astounded by Bush's lack of knowledge in the debates and talking to a guy about it who was totally at ease voting for someone with little grasp of politics outside the borders of the US. He liked Bush more for his ignorance - I guess that was his regular guy you could have a beer with quality - but look where that's got us.

The chance that McCain will be voted into office and she could become president is frightening to me, based on what I have seen so far.
posted by readery at 6:28 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Hate to tell you guys this but putting her on the ticket has electrified the Republicans and church folk here. I mean, they are stoked.

They were going to delude themselves into being stoked if he'd have picked a tumbleweed. That's the GOP base- they fall into line when told.

1) There is not going to be a "bait and switch". There is no secret Old White Guy they're going to roll out a few weeks before the election. It's an insane idea, and would make them look like idiots. Palin really is the VP candidate. Really.

They did it with Harriet Meyers: Pick a politically correct but ineffectual nightmare, the media reacts, install angry right wing white guy.
posted by gjc at 6:31 PM on August 30, 2008

Yay average America! I want an "average" American to pilot my 747. And to operate on my moms brain tumor.
posted by tkchrist at 6:33 PM on August 30, 2008 [6 favorites]

Progressives do need to stay on message, but if that message is "stop being a fucking moron!" it will do absolutely no good. Stop looking at these people as idiots and understand that their worldviews were shaped by certain conditions that need to be changed. Education is incredibly important, as are a number of socioeconomic issues that end up pumping out "morons." If you want to build a coalition to improve these things, you cannot consider your potential partners as idiots. It is divisive thinking that only exacerbates the problem and plays into the stupid culture war idea.

Maybe I'm wrong and people will only become more ignorant, but I think the first step to solving these problems is to consider this "stupidity" as a different point of view, understanding how that point of view came about, and then mobilizing to change what affects that point of view. I don't see how calling someone a moron helps at all.
posted by palidor at 6:33 PM on August 30, 2008 [3 favorites]

I just realized we're a thousand comments into a political thread in a heated election year and I'm trying to be reasonable and positive. I think I just failed at the Internet.
posted by palidor at 6:41 PM on August 30, 2008 [3 favorites]

What'd I miss?
posted by Smedleyman at 6:42 PM on August 30, 2008 [9 favorites]

EarBucket writes "That [Presidential or Vice-presidential candidate] has to have a line of argument to offer on any conceivable issue. Quick, without pausing in the next ninety seconds, tell me what you think about: the balance of relations between Taiwan and mainland China, and exactly what signals we're sending to Hamas, and what we think about Russia's role in the G-8 and potentially in NATO, and where North Korea stands on its nuclear pledges -- plus Iran while we're at it, plus the EU after the Irish vote, plus cap-and-trade as applied to India and China, and what's the right future for South Ossetia;"

My friends, in all seriousness, for five and a half years I starved in a box in the Hanoi Hilton, a prisoner of the Vietnamese Communists.
posted by orthogonality at 6:46 PM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

Well, I think this thread is depressing proof that the Republicans are already successful at their strategy of shifting the narrative from Iraq and the economy, to religion and its related wedge issues.
posted by naju at 6:48 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

And [God] help us all.
posted by naju at 6:49 PM on August 30, 2008

I'm starting to think that the people who pushed Palin on McCain don't actually care if he wins or not. Palin is the perfect GOP figurehead. She's religious, but not economically populist at all. Of course Alaska is practically a socialist state like Iceland or Norway, with Oil revenues being distributed to their (tiny) population. There isn't the same kind of intractable poverty problems you see in the rest of the country.

But anyway, Palin loves Jesus, and she loves Big Oil. By making her the VP for the republican party, they're cementing her place near the top. They're hoping to steer the republican "brand" in a new direction, vastly different from Bush and Cheney. She's still young and she could be around for a while.

Anyway.

No, what I AM saying is that she and her husband WERE the average American. She is no elitist looking down from an intellectual ivory tower. She was no child of privilege born with the proverbial silver spoon. One thing this woman will never do is talk down to America.

Okay, I'll take the easy hit on this as well. Look, Most people on Metafilter are "intellectual elitists", so I don't think that's a winning argument here. Look at all the crap in this thread about how dumb the average American is. Now I don't personally belive that, as I said above, I think most Americans are pretty smart, but there are lots of below average Americans who are too stupid to know what's going on, and are therefore easily manipulated by bullshit. So, as campaigns come to a close, candidates chase those idiots hard, giving the appearance that those people really define America. But most people are pretty smart and probably have a pretty good idea who they're voting for. Especially in this election.

Palin probably isn't dumb, and she's an ordinary middle class American. But that's not the point. I think it's important to have a middle class background like Obama, Palin, Biden, Clinton or Edwards, but born rich people can understand the struggles of the middle class too (but may not). Going to an elite school doesn't make you an elitist (although many people do end up that way)

But it is important that the country be run by genuinely exceptional people. George W. Bush never tried to pretend he wasn't a dumbass, and look what it got us.
posted by delmoi at 6:51 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

My friends, in all seriousness, for five and a half years I starved in a box in the Hanoi Hilton, a prisoner of the Vietnamese Communists.

Well played, sir.
posted by EarBucket at 6:52 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

And Smedleyman! Welcome back!
posted by EarBucket at 6:53 PM on August 30, 2008

I think I just failed at the Internet.
Your problem is that you think you can help maintain a healthy, respectful discussion by focusing comments on the issues, topics, and facts at hand—not at other members of the site. You gotta make fun of folks belief in a god, disrespect their convictions and tell them, repeatedly, to fuck off. It will probably help if you muse that Obama might really be a Muslim or that Sarah is covering for her daughters bastard child.
Whatever you do, keep your mind closed and dig in for your side!
Never mind that most people will be voting for either a woman or a black this fall. What's more important is rhetoric.
Create hatred, fear and consider becoming a suicide bomber.
Win at the internet by being a blowhard!
posted by dawson at 6:53 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

re: post-partisanship (and abortion ;) i liked kaine's formulation:

here's the distinction between Senator Obama and Senator McCain. Senator Obama believes abortion is a grave moral issue, that we can do things to reduce unwanted pregnancy and abortion but that we shouldn't criminalize the health care decisions of doctors and women to fight abortion.

Senator McCain, on the other hand, says he wants Roe vs. Wade to be overturned and that will be a step toward criminalizing the decisions of women and doctors with respect to abortion. We can reduce abortion and unwanted pregnancy in this country. We've shown it during the Clinton years. We can do it by--without making women and doctors criminals if they engage in abortion, in that procedure. And we shouldn't use the criminal laws of one instrument against women and doctors in this way. We can reduce abortion through access to education, access to contraception, abstinence-focused education, all those things can help us reduce abortion.

MR. GREGORY: When do you believe...

GOV. KAINE: But the criminal, the criminal law is not the way we should do it.

MR. GREGORY: When do you believe human rights begin?

GOV. KAINE: Well, human, human rights, broadly, my church teaches and I do believe that human rights begin early in life, at conception or shortly thereafter, and that is my personal belief. But I do not believe the force of the criminal law should compel others to necessarily follow that to the greatest degree. And that's why the strategy of Senator Obama is reduce abortion through education, health care access, point out the grave issue, support reasonable, common-sense restrictions on abortion, I think that's important. But you shouldn't be talking about overturning Roe vs. Wade or criminalizing women and their doctors.

cf. cheers!
posted by kliuless at 6:57 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

What'd I miss?

Michael Palin turned down an offer from John McCain to be his running mate. Palin realized he wasn't suited for the job -- as comedic an offer as it was. He suggested that McCain offer it to his distant cousin, Sarah -- someone he had only met once when hosting a fund-raising 'Monty Pyhton' retrospective on the PBS station in Idaho. She was working the phone bank, as one of the ever-eager college students attending the Univeristy of Idaho.

As it turns out, McCain also had only met her in person one time before. He was struck by the synchronicity and realized that such qualified her for his selection as a candidate for V.P. of the U.S. of A. (and a heart-beat away from becoming Commander-in-Chief). Not a "Roll-of-The-Dice" ... but, an appeal to a Higher Power (In the Christian God We All Should Trust -- or Forever Damn You To Hell, Especially Those Who Abort, The Fags and The Adulterers -- oh, err, wait, what?) led him in his decision.
posted by ericb at 6:58 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

"And, my friends, while I was in that prisoner of war camp for five and a half years ,my running mate, Governor SarahPalin, was working on her father's fishing trawler.

"I should say this, that Sarah didn't have a fancy metal speedboat. But she did sail a respectable Republican cloth boat, and I always tell her she'd look good in anything.

"One other thing I probably should tell you, because if I don't they'll probably be saying this about me, too. A man down in Texas, a man named Karl, heard a mention on the radio mention that I didn't have a running mate. And believe it or not, the day before we left on this campaign trip we got a message from the Republican National Committee in Dayton, saying they had a package for us. We went down to get it. You know what it was? It was a little beauty pageant winner in a crate that he'd sent all the way from Alaska, black and white, with glasses. And our little girl Tricia, the six year old, named it "Sarah Palin Checkers." And you know, the Republican base, like all kids, love my running mate, and I just want to say this, right now, that regardless of what anyone says about it, we're gonna keep it."
posted by orthogonality at 7:03 PM on August 30, 2008 [11 favorites]

Surprisingly rancorous.
posted by Mister_A at 7:11 PM on August 30, 2008

a few comments removed - take fuck off talk to metatalk or email, do not do that here, thanks.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 7:12 PM on August 30, 2008

ericb, what about Obama, who,for one instance, called his community organizers 'God's army'? That's the same god konolia worships. why are you making personal attacks?
you are out of line. you also appear desperate and the bigger asshole here.
posted by dawson at 7:13 PM on August 30, 2008

The much-smarter powers behind the party selected Palin for a purpose. "Longshot chance at winning" was certainly not the reason for selecting her. What you should be doing is trying to figure out what that goal is.

Sarah Palin was selected for one reason and one reason only. She's a dog whistle to the evangelical Republican voter base. This very public woman chose to raise rather than abort a child with Down's. Christian fundamentalists across America are writhing in ecstasy at her nomination. Disenfranchised Republicans unhappy because McCain is too liberal for their tastes will come out in droves to see this women seated in the White House.

Her experience is irrelevant. Her looks are irrelevant. Her intellect is irrelevant. She made the long list, fell off the short list, and then miraculously made the grade four months after giving birth to a baby with Down's. I seriously doubt we'd be seeing her on that podium were this not the case.

I am not, by the way, dissing her actual qualifications. She could be highly experienced, stunningly beautiful, outrageously smart and able to find Iraq on a map and all of that would still be irrelevant to the RNC.
posted by DarlingBri at 7:13 PM on August 30, 2008 [4 favorites]

A lot of us pray for the mercy of God to be poured out on this country because we know just how much we deserve judgement.

...and then we go into the ballot box, and we vote to keep the hungry unfed, and we vote to keep the unclothed naked, and we vote to keep those sick and in prison unvisited, and we vote to keep strangers unwelcome, and we vote for neverending war.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:16 PM on August 30, 2008 [56 favorites]

If a hurricane hitting New Orleans as the Republican convention starts does not qualify, among believers, as a sign from god, I feel to see what would.
posted by troybob at 7:19 PM on August 30, 2008 [5 favorites]

For some of us who view abortion as the holocaust it is, it is very much an issue. A lot of us pray for the mercy of God to be poured out on this country because we know just how much we deserve judgement.

But, your God does not represent evryone's god.

Let's keep religion out of the public square, as our Founding Fathers sought a separation between church and state.
posted by ericb at 7:24 PM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

you are out of line. you also appear desperate and the bigger asshole here.

Huh?
posted by ericb at 7:29 PM on August 30, 2008

In fact, as Palin's cultural views become better known -- she oppose (sic) abortion in all cases and opposes the use of birth control pills and condoms even among married couples -- she will undoubtedly scare the hell out of the soccer moms and 98% of Hillary voters.

-- from "Worst Pick Ever?" by pollster Del Ali, the president of Research 2000.
posted by orthogonality at 7:32 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

What'd I miss?

Well, Mitt and Tim are mad at John for leading them on and choosing Sarah to be his partner instead, and Cindy is a little worried that John might have a thing for Sarah so Cindy has her father convince John to enter a race to sail around the world and when he does, he ends up trapped on this island where he can't get off because of an ever-present, spacetime-distorting hurricane.

Meanwhile in Denver, Hillary has finally found the cartharsis she'd been searching for but it was still pretty clear to Barry that Bill had some lingering tensions that would need to be stroked if Bill was going to feel any relief, and Barry realized that the best person for the job would be Bill himself. Despite scattered reports of large mountain cats in the area, Bill managed to pull it off. And it all seems pretty much resolved after Barry wins the Super Bowl and the greek chorus sings Brooks and Dunn's Only in America as the screen fades to black.

But before the credits roll on this episode we hear Sarah's name whispered by a gruff voice in the dark. Then we see Sarah stepping up to a mirror in a barely lit room. She's sees the specter of Dick in the reflection.

"Do not fear, Sarah. You will be instructed well in the dark ways of the vice presidency."

Pretty compelling stuff.
posted by effwerd at 7:33 PM on August 30, 2008 [12 favorites]

If a hurricane hitting New Orleans as the Republican convention starts does not qualify, among believers, as a sign from god, I feel to see what would.

McCain, Palin campaign with one eye on hurricane.
posted by ericb at 7:34 PM on August 30, 2008

The information that her daughter Bristol is the actual mother of Trig, the "fifth child" of Palin is getting some legs.

I really don't like this story. It, like the fact that she was once in a beauty pagent, has nothing to do with her policies. It's a mean, much-raking rumour.

---------------------------

She is no elitist looking down from an intellectual ivory tower.

I would like to point out that no university anywhere has ivory towers. If you are lucky, maybe you have a brick tower, maybe with some stone cladding for the fancy places. But the vast majority are made of concrete.

Seriously, I find the whole academic=elite meme really offensive. Say what you like about academics - that they are quarellsome and argumentative, the sucessful ones can be at times arrogant, that they are so independant minded they can have trouble working together -- but one thing they are not (as a group) is socially elitist. I mean you are talking about some really smart people who could have worked a lot of really renumerative jobs who instead have, out of love for what they study, have a much lower income than many of the people they went to university with. Many lived in real poverty as graduate students; even those with better funding live for years on with a low wage, unable to save or buy a house. (You want to talk elitist? To me "elite" means being able to go out for dinner, being able to have more than two rooms for you and your husband to live in. To be saving for retirement before you turn thirty, to be able to even think about buying a house or having kids sometime before you turn forty.)

More than that - a hell of of a lot of those academics know exactly what is happening with "ordinary" Americans (or Canadians or Brits, or Africans or Chinese people) because they study them for a living. All of the sociologists, economists, historians, anthropologists - they deal with real people (albeit sometimes dead) everyday, and they pay constant attention to what is happening in our world because they care. And academics in all disciplines come from all classes, races, and countries - - there is more diversity of experience in any given univerisity than just about anywhere in the world, and they talk to each other, so that they don't just have a sense of what life is like for most Americans, but also know a bit about the rest of the world too.

Or do you think they are "elitist" because they value knowledge above money? That sounds really elitist.

----------------------------

Up thread, I said that I felt like many Americans who claim that they want to vote for the candidate who will give them the biggest tax cut but who vote for McCain would be voting like idiots -- not that they were idiots. I don't believe that they are. But I do believe that they have been willfully ignorant, that they have abrogated their responsibilities to themselves, to their children and to their fellow citizens to pay attention to the civic process, and to at least learn the basic facts of the two platforms. It's not like the tax proposals have not been easily digested for them.

People like to talk about personal responsibility -- well, I think this is just about one of the most important personal responsibilities you have: learn before you vote. Find out what the proposals are, and what they mean. Don't vote with your gut; guts are for picking take-out. Most of us claim that we want democracy -- people to rule themselves -- so then we have a bit of work to do.

Not that I let the media off the hook either. Frankly, the American media should simply be sickened at what it has become. In 2004, over and over again the media questioned whether Kerry would "would do as good a job in the War on Terror as Bush has done", at the same time as the world's military and strategic communities were tearing their hair out at what a terrible mess Bush et al had made of it all. But the Hollywood story - Republicans are strong and pro-military (despite being strategically incompentant and eviserating verterans' support services) - was more important than, you know, reality. The media has abrogated its own responsibilities to put the truth and informing the public discourse first.
posted by jb at 7:50 PM on August 30, 2008 [47 favorites]

Just for the record, there is an abundance of religious language in the Declaration of Independence, and prayer has long been a part of the rituals in the Houses of Congress.

This is the entire constitutional basis of the concept of the separation of church and state:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
The long-standing separation of church and state is the result of judicial interpretation of the first amendment, and not iron-clad constitutional language. It is crucial to remember this fact, because there are many literalists in the US–biblical literalists and constitutional literalists. It is not uncommon for these two literalist traits to sort together in one person. Literalists view neither the Bible nor the US Constitution as living, breathing documents, but rather as immutable commandments engraved on stone tablets handed down from on high.

Rigid belief systems like this offer psychic comfort to billions of people across the world who are terrified of punishment–punishment by God, by the Law, by their parents, by their bosses. Belief in a simple, clearly defined, immutable set of rules allays the fears of punishment among the masses, but it does not immunize them from depradation by the powerful; instead, it guarantees that these people will accede to the horrors visited upon them by those who hold power. When people prostrate themselves to rigid belief systems, they submit to and empower the cruel whims of the arbiters of those systems.

There is a large block of voters in the US whose belief system holds that abortion is a mortal sin, no matter the context. The Republican party has discovered that it can attach nearly any depraved rider to this bill, and it will pass unanimously in the congress of the religious right. The cynical manipulation of the fearful by so-called Christians in government and in the various hard-line ministries is deplorable and un-Christian, but also shockingly predictable. You must understand that the people you dismiss as stupid are only stupid because they are blinded by fear–they literally fear the fires of hell if they vote for Obama, because their radicalized churches tell them that voting for someone who supports Roe v Wade will indeed condemn them to the lake of fire. While they may understand that the policies of the government that they helped to create often hurt them economically, they do not believe they are voting against their own interests in the long term, because the long term is eternity.
posted by Mister_A at 8:00 PM on August 30, 2008 [8 favorites]

jb writes "Seriously, I find the whole academic=elite meme really offensive."

"Ah, you talk like a fag, and your shit's all retarded."
posted by orthogonality at 8:33 PM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

othogonality, I wonder if your pollster has a source for the claim he/she makes in your quote?

If this is true, Palin will indeed "scare the hell out of the soccer moms," not to mention a good number of a partially overlapping demographic, conservative prolifers.

That's an extreme enough view that I have to be skeptical. Has Palin really come out and said that?
posted by torticat at 8:36 PM on August 30, 2008

Remember also that the other work she has done-such as the commercial fishing-gives her a real perspective on what is important to the average American. That is a perspective that a lot of people inside the Beltway truly lack.

Let's not forget that Obama worked at a Baskin Robbins.
posted by birdherder at 8:43 PM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

torticat writes "othogonality, I wonder if your pollster has a source for the claim he/she makes in your quote?"

Honestly, that was the first I've seen it, and I have no further cite.
posted by orthogonality at 8:49 PM on August 30, 2008

Well, she's a member of Feminists for Life, which, from what I understand, ARE for birth control. So I doubt she doesn't believe in any birth control.
posted by agregoli at 8:49 PM on August 30, 2008

Let me spell it out....she and her husband have been blue collar workers. She will understand the blue collar subculture. And blue collar people will relate to her.
posted by konolia at 8:51 PM on August 30, 2008

jb: Seriously, I find the whole academic=elite meme really offensive. Say what you like about academics - that they are quarellsome and argumentative, the sucessful ones can be at times arrogant, that they are so independant minded they can have trouble working together -- but one thing they are not (as a group) is socially elitist.

I think this is extremely dependent on locality; here in Boston, for example, there is an unambiguous, historic subtext of tension and class-envy between the academic and working worlds. People who go to MIT and Harvard are generally not from, and certainly not destined for, the average economic stratum of the surrounding population, nor do they resemble it demographically.
posted by kid ichorous at 8:52 PM on August 30, 2008

but there are lots of below average Americans who are too stupid to know what's going on, and are therefore easily manipulated by bullshit.

And lots of them are also left-wingers. Trust me- the right doesn't have a monopoly on uninformed idiots.

And jb, academics may be broke, but they're better than Those Guys Who Work In Factories. In Berkeley I've never run into that attitude, though I've never been to school here, either, but IU Bloomington's liberal arts grad school was rotten with it. The classism there was truly shocking. (And lots and lots of students in these schools were from long lines of academics- and felt pretty superior about it. I guess they'd HAVE to be snobby about it. How else could you justify being low-income for generations PLUS generally unable to function outside academia? I will never forget my department head's quote: "Get one of those knuckle-draggers up here to help me set up my voicemail." Disgusting. And pathetic.)
posted by small_ruminant at 8:52 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

...or I could just look around a bit myself.

See here. ("she is pro-contraception," etc.)

Still no direct quotes, so take it fwiw.
posted by torticat at 8:53 PM on August 30, 2008

Sarah Palin scrubs her own Wikipedia entry?
posted by effwerd at 8:59 PM on August 30, 2008

"Get one of those knuckle-draggers up here to help me set up my voicemail."

Clearly wasn't the head of either the anthropology or the computer science departments.
posted by kid ichorous at 9:01 PM on August 30, 2008

Her very existence on the ticket is an god damned insult. It's basically a cynical admission that the base constituency of the Republican party are complete idiots.

Well, I think the Democratic Party picking Obama over Hillary already proved that solid experience is not always what a party is looking for in a candidate. Hillary at least was married to a chief executive. And neither Obama or McCain has ever held an executive position.

Perhaps we need to have a rule that only former governors can run for President, if we really want to do more than give lip service to the idea we have "qualified " candidates.
posted by konolia at 9:01 PM on August 30, 2008

Palin becomes President, screws things up worse, lesson learned: don't let women have power.

And y'know, I suspect that would be fine with the Republican party.

And, hey, come back in 2012 with a manly-man who will "put things right." Yet another four years of power.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:22 PM on August 30, 2008

...and then we go into the ballot box, and we vote to keep the hungry unfed, and we vote to keep the unclothed naked, and we vote to keep those sick and in prison unvisited, and we vote to keep strangers unwelcome, and we vote for neverending war.

how many meals you serve to the homeless this week? how much unused clothing in your closets? how many sickbeds and prison cells you see this week? voting doesn't impact any of that shit, YOU do.
posted by quonsar at 9:24 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Well, she's a member of Feminists for Life, which, from what I understand, ARE for birth control. So I doubt she doesn't believe in any birth control.

Actually, FFL sorta darts around contraception.

Feminists for Life's mission is to address the unmet needs of women who are pregnant or parenting. Preconception issues including abstinence and contraception are outside of our mission. Some FFL members and supporters support the use of non-abortifacient contraception while others oppose contraception for a variety of reasons. FFL is concerned that certain forms of contraception have had adverse health effects on women.

Our membership enjoys a broad spectrum of opinion that reflects the diversity of opinions among the American public.

This article indicates FFL like most other pro-life groups is against contraception

Today, pro-life groups in the U.S. are reclassifying the most common contraception methods, including the birth control pill, the patch, the IUD and the depo-shot, as “abortifacients,” claiming, with no scientific backing, that they cause abortions. On their website, Feminists for Life classifies emergency contraception as an abortion method. If this were true, Feminists for Life should also classify 40 percent of all birth control methods as abortion methods because they all have the same mode of action as emergency contraception.

Now Gov. Palin may be "pro-contraception" as she indicated in the interview torticat linked to, but that doesn't mean it is policy of FFL. This post on DailyKOS has some interesting notes on FFL's position or non-position on birth control.
posted by birdherder at 9:25 PM on August 30, 2008

she and her husband have been blue collar workers. She will understand the blue collar subculture. And blue collar people will relate to her.

Wow, great. That puts her in an excellent position to advocate on behalf of this "subculture" in an advisory capacity to those who are making decisions. It doesn't qualify her for the big job itself.

If a decision process was being made in the design of a new automobile, I could possibly add a few suggestions. I've driven a car all my life. I don't think that would qualify me to become the president (or vice president) of Toyota.

Well, I think the Democratic Party picking Obama over Hillary already proved that solid experience is not always what a party is looking for in a candidate.

McCain based his whole campaign on chiding Obama's lack of experience.

And neither Obama or McCain has ever held an executive position.

Here's the new buzzword straight from the new talking point boilerplate.
"Executive Experience" = Governor of the least densely populated state for 16 months?
posted by damo at 9:28 PM on August 30, 2008

Hillary at least was married to a chief executive.

Chris Rock had a good bit about this: “I’ve been with my wife for 10 years now,” he said. “If she got onstage right now, y’all wouldn’t laugh at all.”

66 days before the election, out comes somebody with basically no experience that is a heartbeat away from the presidency, and you want to compare that to someone who has been getting scrutinized, attacked, responded, traveled across the country giving talks big and small, having every single word dissected since Spring 2007?? Obama has been investigated, raked over the coals, produced his tax records, had people questioning everything about him.

Not. Obama IS American. He is a great American. If I had a kid I would want him to grow up and make the most of his mind and his body and his opportunities. For you to imply that Obama is somehow less American? What's that about? That's lame.
posted by cashman at 9:29 PM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

interesting, the dismissive tone and scoffing of some here vs Camille Paglia's take:
"We may be seeing the first woman president. As a Democrat, I am reeling. That was the best political speech I have ever seen delivered by an American woman politician. Palin is as tough as nails."
Sure wouldn't guess even things were 10% of that by the cocky, sneering comments here!
posted by dawson at 9:29 PM on August 30, 2008

So apparently this most recent scandal isn't the first time Palin's been in trouble for possibly abusing the power of her office to fire someone.

Some citizens of Wasilia were considering pushing for a recall of her.

I don't have much to say to the general thrust(s) of the thread beyond the fact that I think if she makes it that long, this will be the most hilarious VP debate ever (or at least in my lifetime).

This feels seriously like a Harriet Miers moment to me.
posted by sparkletone at 9:35 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Perhaps we need to have a rule that only former governors can run for President, if we really want to do more than give lip service to the idea we have "qualified " candidates.

See: the last eight years.
posted by neroli at 9:47 PM on August 30, 2008

Perhaps we need to have a rule that only former governors can run for President, if we really want to do more than give lip service to the idea we have "qualified " candidates.

Or perhaps that is an absolutely ridiculous idea, and some people would do well to just stick with the party line of "executive experience blah blah blah" instead of trying to expound on it.

I mean, there have been some pretty darn good US Presidents among the 63% of them who never served as a governor before becoming president.
posted by Balonious Assault at 9:48 PM on August 30, 2008

When it comes time to pull that lever, there will be blue collar workers who will feel they have a lot more in common with Palin than Obama/Biden. Just sayin'.

When it comes right down to it, for many people voting is an emotional act. Obama is a master at producing those emotions, and convincing people he can actually do all those things he has promised. When I read his speech (then later watched it) all I could think of is, heck, all you gotta do is get up there and say you will do this, say you will do that, and the sheeple will swoon, and the fireworks will go off, and the music will soar, and the photogenic candidate and his photogenic wife and their adorable photogenic kids will be standing their looking totally like what a presidential family should look like.

Smoke and mirrors.

So mock Palin if you must. But if you think Obama/Biden is substantially better, it is only because you have neglected to look behind the curtain.
posted by konolia at 9:49 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

Smoke and mirrors.

Worked for Bush.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:52 PM on August 30, 2008 [3 favorites]

Just what makes a "qualified" candidate?

Both Roosevelt's did not serve full terms as governor of New York, before FDR became president and Teddy became VP (Pres after McKinley's assasination) - both were great Presidents.

LBJ was succesful at getting what he wanted through congress, as he was an astute master of the senate.

What I think has been overlooked is the unbelievable rise of Barack Obama and what it says about him and his skills. As a life long Chicagoan I am amazed at what he has accomplished as an outsider. I live in the hot bed of nepotism. Not just the Daleys, but the former President of the Cook County board, John Stroger left his job to his son, Tod Stroger (in a county with a population of 5.3 million, an incredible tax base and helm of a patronage army), The president of the State Senate Emil Jones just gave his job to Emil junior

The head of the Illinois House of Representatives' daughter is Attorney General and expected to be the next governor. I often feel I live in the crookedest place in the world, and we locals have grown entirely too immune to it.

Well into this bastion comes an out of towner, Mr Obama, unconnected but with high hopes. And 15 years later he is the Democratic nominee for President. This is where Jesse Jackson thought his son Jesse Junior might be.

He did it with his obvious great personal charisma, incredible intellectual gifts and a sense of humor. But what I hear people praise him for is his ability to build a consensus. He has the ability to speak clearly and adroitly, letting people rise to their better natures.

He has been able to come out of Illinois politics without any hint of personal corrption (no mean feat) and generally well liked by even his opponents. And he seems to genuinely like the job he's doing.

This, I think, makes for a qualified candidate.

He understands what needs to be done to make our country great, he is a lover and scholar of the constitution, and he is a natural leader of people. I hope he proves to be one of our greatest presidents. I only wish McCain hadn't pulled this bone headed pick just to steal Obama's thunder from the most immpressive political speech I have ever witnessed.

And I will not be suprised if this is a "Harriet Myers" place holder deal. This is just too weird, in many respects.
posted by readery at 9:57 PM on August 30, 2008 [19 favorites]

Perhaps we need to have a rule that only former governors can run for President, if we really want to do more than give lip service to the idea we have "qualified " candidates.

See, konolia, we don't have such a rule, which means that me or thee are free to use any qualification standndard we want in supporting or criticizing a candidate. But the point at hand is at hand because the McCain campaign has made it a central campaign issue for the last umpty months. Picking Palin is as much as an admission "Oh, whoops, we didn't mean any of that shit. Our bad!"

I think you have it backwards. When they married, McCain was the trophy husband.

Exactly. The GOP spent $millions portraying Kerry as the trophy husband in HIS marriage. It was intended to make him look dependent and emasculate him.

Sarah Palin scrubs her own Wikipedia entry?

That's nuts. One of the first edits the user made was to redirect his user page to his user talk page. That's the mark of a pretty experienced editor. As to the timing, it could have been mere prescience.
posted by dhartung at 10:06 PM on August 30, 2008

"But- but McCain is a Republican! Surely there must be some higher, mysterious, secret power at work that we're just not seeing." No, sometimes a bad move is just a bad move.

I think the best way to look at it comes from a line by Hal Holbrook/Deep Throat in All The President's Men: "The truth is these are not very bright guys, and things got a little out of hand."

Before accepting a conspiratorial explanation for anything, always consider the possibility that it's all just some average guys who let things get out of hand.
posted by jonp72 at 10:06 PM on August 30, 2008

Actually, the more I think about it.

If it's not a "Harriet Miers" moment, it's totally a Thomas Eagleton moment.

I think I spelled that right. It's been a long time since I read Fear and Loathing on the Campaign Trail '72.
posted by sparkletone at 10:08 PM on August 30, 2008

Yeah, and I am a working class kid still living in the same neighborhood as ever, trying to make ends meet, just like my neighbors.

Sarah Palin's family income has consistently been six figures in an oil rich state. They own three homes and probably a fleet of snowmobiles. I don't think she speaks for me.
posted by readery at 10:08 PM on August 30, 2008 [2 favorites]

who will feel they have a lot more in common with Palin than Obama/Biden. Just sayin'.

Indeed.
posted by homunculus at 10:16 PM on August 30, 2008

the_bone: the Republican Party is not, and never will be, the friend of the working man.

This year's Republican National Convention is designed to showcase their scorn for the working man/woman: they're opening their convention on Labor Day (which was once a holiday to honor Labor...).
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 10:17 PM on August 30, 2008 [1 favorite]

When it comes time to pull that lever, there will be blue collar workers who will feel they have a lot more in common with Obama than McMansion/Palin. Just sayin'.

When it comes right down to it, for many people voting is an emotional act. McCain is a master at producing those emotions by saying he's a P.O.W., or by trying to scare them with talk about surrendering, or by misrepresenting his opponents positions. When I read his srecord all I could think of is, heck, all you gotta do is put a woman up there, and you don't say out loud you will vote against women's rights as most see them, and the sheeple will cower in fear, and the "she's a woman!" fireworks will go off, and the harley engines will roar, and the American candidate and his "She IS American" running mate and their war-related stories will be standing there looking totally like what all the other presidents have looked like.

Fear and trickery.

So mock Obama if you must. But if you think McCain/Palin is substantially better, it is only because you have neglected to look past the fear, at the record.
posted by cashman at 10:21 PM on August 30, 2008 [9 favorites]

She is no elitist looking down from an intellectual ivory tower.

You hateful bigot.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:53 PM on August 30, 2008 [3 favorites]

You hateful bigot.

huh?
posted by small_ruminant at 10:56 PM on August 30, 2008

The only liberal academic [besides Obama, and he was never a full-time university professor like, say, Secretary Rice] I can think of offhand who has had any sort of effect on contemporary, popular political discourse is maaaybe George Lakoff. Maybe

Bill and Hillary have both been law professors. In fact, the judge in the Monica Lewinski mess actually had Bill as one of her professors.
but there are lots of below average Americans who are too stupid to know what's going on, and are therefore easily manipulated by bullshit.
And lots of them are also left-wingers. Trust me- the right doesn't have a monopoly on uninformed idiots.

I never said they were, I but I was talking about swing voters specifically. A lot of the political advertising you see wouldn't work on most people, who actually are paying attention and read or watch the news and know what's going on. They've mostly made up their minds -- based on whatever criteria is important to them.

When it comes time to pull that lever, there will be blue collar workers who will feel they have a lot more in common with Palin than Obama/Biden. Just sayin'.

Well, I don't know who they'll feel like they'll have more in common with, but most of them will vote for the democratic ticket, as they have in the last few presidential elections. It's just a fact that lower middle class and working class people are more likely to vote Democratic. It's towards the upper end of the middle class where you find most of the republican voters. Higher then that, and the population is too small to make much of a difference.

Also, it's kind of weird to suggest that they won't feel comfortable with Biden, who seems to be well loved by working class people. And wouldn't they be more worried about the actual top of the ticket and John "how many houses" McCain? The guy spends $270,000 on personal staff like butlers and maids.
posted by delmoi at 11:00 PM on August 30, 2008

People who go to MIT and Harvard are generally not from, and certainly not destined for, the average economic stratum of the surrounding population, nor do they resemble it demographically.
posted by kid ichorous at 11:52 PM on August 30 [+] [!]

We can discuss access problems in higher education in another thread, but it's been my experience that post-graduate education even at elite universities is quite diverse in class origins. I'm speaking only anecdotally, as no one does stats on grad students, but a substantial number come from middle class and working class and poor backgrounds. Post-graduate programs draw from a diverse group of undergraduate universities, including many American state universities and international state universities which are themselves more accessible to lower income students. I know tenured academics (leaving students aside) whose fathers were farm labourers, miners, shop keepers, or factory workers, just as I know academics whose parents were other academics or professionals. Many academics are the first in their family to go to university.

I'm not saying that academics know all walks of life -- just that they are substantially less elite than just about anyone else with their level of education, and a lot less elite than the business or political leaders who love to paint them as being elite and out of touch. They do tend to be more well-read than the average citizen, but then again, that reading tends to be very specialised -- and they can be shockingly ignorant about somethings (like email -- see the above comment). But what I've seen of academics is that they are often more aware of economic realities of poor and working class people than most other middle class or higher people I've met - many because they have been there. I supose there is the rare perfectly well-funded academic whose degree didn't overrun, never took adjunct lecturing position or had to do a post-doc. But they are the crazy ones. Most are very familiar with pasta and chick peas on sale. (69 cents a can at Shaws right now - that was great).

And the vast majority of academics in North America work at non-elite universities, where they teach students who are themselves often the first in their families to go to university, and who have to work 20 hours a week to pay for tuition and/or live at home with all the distractions and family strife (esp due to economic problems) -- the teachers get all this back.
posted by jb at 11:08 PM on August 30, 2008

Why are you guys getting so pissy at Konolia because she's arguing that Palin appeals to the the Republican base? I mean, shit, I think we can all safely say that she's more familiar with that demographic than anybody else here. What are we getting out of yelling "No they don't! No they don't!"

If I were really interested in gathering voters, rather than dismissing her endorsement of Palin as balderdash, I would listen to why she (and others) like Palin and figure out how to change their like to dislike.

This pick is GREAT for courting the base, because Palin has conservative values and that same backwoodsy "Aw, shucks, me be the President? Well, I will if you guys want me to! Let's all have a beer!" schtick that Bush had and appeals to many, many voters.

Konolia, I'm sorry if you have already asked been asked this question and I missed it, this is a pretty huge thread. Are you comfortable with the amount of experience that Palin has had? Do you think she's qualified to be President if something were to happen to McCain? Were there any other potential VP candidates that you would have preferred? I ask this honestly, I know in a thread it's hard to not read everything as snark but I'd really like your perspective.
posted by Anonymous at 11:59 PM on August 30, 2008

DEMOCRATS TAKE WARNING: McCain just closed the evangelical vote
posted by homunculus at 12:00 AM on August 31, 2008

Palin's Buddy Pat Buchanan on Women

"More of the views that apparently attracted McCain's VP choice, Sarah Palin, to Pat Buchanan:
2007: 'The rise of women to power in a civilization is very often the mark of its decline.'

-- Pat Buchanan, On The McLaughlin Group, July 6, 2007

1983: 'Rail as they will against "discrimination," women are simply not endowed by nature with the same measures of single-minded ambition and the will to succeed in the fiercely competitive world of Western capitalism…The momma bird builds the nest. So it was, so it ever shall be. Ronald Reagan is not responsible for this; God is."'

-- Pat Buchanan, Washington Times. November 18, 1983"

posted by ericb at 12:16 AM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin Connects with a Key Place: Exurban America -- "Just-settled edges of U.S. cities could be central to the GOP ticket's success."
posted by ericb at 12:21 AM on August 31, 2008

Was the evangelical vote ever really up for grabs?
posted by kid ichorous at 12:24 AM on August 31, 2008

Was the evangelical vote ever really up for grabs?

Obama has repeatedly said he wants to reach out to religious voters, there are liberal evangelicals. But of course the hard-core konolia type we typically consider as the "evangelical voter" was feared by the GOP to be unexcited and thus unlikely to turn out. And not only that, but the evangelical base is also key to the republican GOTV (get out the vote) operations.
posted by delmoi at 12:34 AM on August 31, 2008

Why are you guys getting so pissy at Konolia because she's arguing that Palin appeals to the the Republican base?

We're all quite aware that the Republican VP candidate will attract Republican votes, as well as what schtick the McCain team will be using to make Palin more appealing. I think the issue is with what Konolia believes Obama is or isn't, as opposed to what Palin is or isn't. That's what seems to be getting the biggest reaction from people here anyway, if I'm reading this correctly.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:36 AM on August 31, 2008

konolia writes "Obama is a master at producing those emotions... all I could think of is, heck, all you gotta do is get up there and say you will do this, say you will do that, and the sheeple will swoon,"

Wait, a McCain supporter just said "sheeple"?

I mean, konolia's never even been to reddit.com, right? Much less been a 9/11 Truther.

You're hurting my head, konolia!
posted by orthogonality at 1:15 AM on August 31, 2008

This thread. Wow.
posted by cj_ at 2:21 AM on August 31, 2008

DEMOCRATS TAKE WARNING: McCain just closed the evangelical vote

From the link: And it doesn't help that some believe Obama to be Muslim and the Anti-Christ: The Man who will create a One-World Government and bring in the Apocalypse. 12% of Americans believe this thanks to the power of viral emails.

That's got to be bullshit.
posted by kisch mokusch at 2:23 AM on August 31, 2008

He's playing to the undecideds, here, but he risks losing his Republican base.

Unless you are really uncharismatic, fail to push party lines, or come across as a chump, you will never really lose your base. Strong Republicans not going to vote for Obama just because they don't like Palin! On the other hand, undecideds are absolutely who you want to go for, and a woman, at least, is a good choice for this. Other options for VP to show diversity -- a black or Latino male VP -- might have come across as "copying" Obama. Going for a woman makes it seem like they're fulfilling a dream.

I just hope this election doesn't become a taste of whether America is more racist, or more sexist.

Also, the solution to the OMG PUMA supporters voting for McCain thing is to use Hillary in targeted ads. Find the areas where McCain is ahead because of disgruntled PUMAs and put Hillary on every billboard saying, "If you support what I fought for, vote for Obama."
posted by Deathalicious at 3:59 AM on August 31, 2008

500 comments later, I have two thoughts on this sort of distasteful but deliciously trashy whose-daughter-is-it-anyway thing...

(1) They named one son "Track" because he was born during track season? The boy in question is named "Trig"? Has anyone looked into which classes high-schooler Bristol was taking in the semester before she vanished from school for six months? How large are these classes? How many... boys? Who's the (gulp) teacher?

(2) If Gov Palin did indeed cover up her daughter's pregnancy by claiming the child as her own, that isn't necessarily going to look bad to the very conservative, old-fashioned type of voter, is it? Forty or fifty years ago... that's just what one did, after all, and it was understood that it was not talked about.. Calling her out for it, in fact, would itself be the height of rudeness, like commenting on daddy's drinky drinky problem.
posted by rokusan at 4:04 AM on August 31, 2008

And it doesn't help that some believe Obama to be Muslim and the Anti-Christ: The Man who will create a One-World Government and bring in the Apocalypse.

Well... every time I hear the McCain camp call him "the One" or place some other faux-flattering biblical label on Obama, I hear dogs howl. They are most definitely pushing that button over and over again.
posted by rokusan at 4:05 AM on August 31, 2008

Calling her out for it, in fact, would itself be the height of rudeness, like commenting on daddy's drinky drinky problem.

I'm not so sure about that. The voters have a right to know, don't you think?
Perhaps the matter could be cleared up by calling several hundred thousand registered Republicans and ask them whether this is an issue for them: "If you knew that the father of Trig Palin is not Sarah's husband Todd Palin but actually a student from Wasilla High School, would you be more or less likely to vote for Sarah Palin?"
posted by sour cream at 5:05 AM on August 31, 2008 [4 favorites]

6 things Palin pick says about 'maverick' McCain

• 1. He's desperate. Let's stop pretending this race is as close as national polling suggests. The truth is McCain is essentially tied or trailing in every swing state that matters - and too close for comfort in several states like Indiana and Montana the GOP usually wins pretty easily in presidential races. On top of that, voters seem very inclined to elect Democrats in general this election and seem very sick of the Bush years.

McCain could easily lose in an electoral landslide. That is the private view of Democrats and Republicans alike.

McCain's pick shows he is not pretending. Politicians, even "mavericks" like McCain, play it safe when they think they are winning - or see an easy path to winning. They roll the dice only when they know that the risks of conventionality are greater than the risks of boldness.

This is important to remember. I hope that the dem side can keep from coming apart at the seams over a move that was basically rooted in weakness... and most especially avoid further inflaming already raw feelings related to perceived and overt sexism, because whatever else McCain gains by naming her, she will also be bait for this sort of rotten behavior. VPILF wasn't a great beginning. It's also not promising that so many people are saying, "oh poo - now nobody can attack her on the issues because it will be seen as sexist/mean". Not true. Please do argue the issues, and not her reproductive system. Ask the hard questions, and stop worrying about how she's going to breastfeed as VP. Etc. She's a candidate for Vice President of the United States; crying that she can't be confronted on actual issues because she's a woman is just more stupid sexism, and that's not really helping anyone right now - especially the Democratic party.
posted by taz at 5:09 AM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

sour cream writes "'If you knew that the father of Trig Palin is not Sarah's husband Todd Palin but actually a student from Wasilla High School, would you be more or less likely to vote for Sarah Palin?'"

What, is Trig a illegitimate black baby?
posted by orthogonality at 5:17 AM on August 31, 2008

So mock Palin if you must. But if you think Obama/Biden is substantially better, it is only because you have neglected to look behind the curtain.

HiLARious.
posted by tristeza at 5:31 AM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

Palin has more executive governmental experience than Obama and Biden combined.

By that measure, she has more than McCain as well.

Technically, Michael Scott from "The Office" has more executive experience than Obama, Biden, and McCain.

Scott/Schrute '08!
posted by EarBucket at 5:49 AM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

Let me spell it out....she and her husband have been blue collar workers. She will understand the blue collar subculture. And blue collar people will relate to her.

i work at a factory as a blue collar worker and my blue collar co-workers have a phrase for those who would vote for mccain and palin - "you're working democratic but you're voting republican"

yeah, we "relate" to them - we relate to them as management, not as rank and file

and that's how things are in the world of blue-collar, pro-union, yankee NASCAR democrats
posted by pyramid termite at 5:51 AM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

More seriously, though, running a presidential campaign is a lot like running a large corporation. And the Obama campaign is the biggest, most well-organized campaign in history. He's been the head of a political machine that's been firing on all cylinders and has taken over the Democratic party from within, defeating Hillary, who had every advantage in the world. Whatever else you think about him, it's clear he's a hell of a manager.
posted by EarBucket at 5:51 AM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Konolia, I'm sorry if you have already asked been asked this question and I missed it, this is a pretty huge thread. Are you comfortable with the amount of experience that Palin has had? Do you think she's qualified to be President if something were to happen to McCain? Were there any other potential VP candidates that you would have preferred? I ask this honestly, I know in a thread it's hard to not read everything as snark but I'd really like your perspective.

First, I don't think McCain is about to kick the bucket any time soon. He can afford the finest of health care, for one thing. He is someone I trust with foreign policy and I also trust that he will see that his VP gets up to speed quickly.

Second of all, although her experience is limited, it has been the right kind of experience. I also like the fact that she ISN't one of those folks who have been around the political block forever. Fresh face, fresh ideas. Don't discount that. (After all, isn't that why so many folks are nuts for Obama?)

Third, there is NO ONE else out there, male or female that would have excited me. I am frankly as thrilled McCain DIDN'T pick Romney as I am that he DID pick Palin. I detest Romney. None of his reputed top four choices were people I was particularly interested in.

Fourth, don't underestimate the fact that there were a lot of folks out here planning to sit out the election because of their dislike of McCain, my own son one of them. Many of these folks are rethinking that position.
posted by konolia at 6:07 AM on August 31, 2008

If Gov Palin did indeed cover up her daughter's pregnancy by claiming the child as her own

The "evidence" for this claim is that Palin allegedly doesn't "look pregnant" in photos taken from October 2007-April 2008, while her daughter allegedly does "look pregnant": "Well, Sarah, I'm calling you a liar. And not even a good one. Trig Paxson Van Palin is not your son. He is your grandson... Bristol is pregnant in these pictures. She is not carrying belly fat, which grows outwardly wide, and does not become dome-shaped."

Except:

1) Sarah Palin wore loose and/or heavy clothes during this period. It was winter in Alaska. While many people were unable to notice, some people who observed her in person in the final months quickly recognized that she was pregnant: "Of course I had to check out the “Hottest Governor in the US” and quickly turned to see her pregnant (she has since had her baby) with bags and daughter in tote."

2) Palin's own doctor has been quoted in the press about the birth and performing delivery procedures on Palin: "... she consulted with her doctor, family physician Cathy Baldwin-Johnson... The contractions slowed to one or two an hour, "which is not active labor," the doctor said... Baldwin-Johnson said she had to induce labor, and the baby didn't come until 6:30 a.m. Friday."

3) The photo of Bristol Palin's alleged pregnant belly was taken in late 2006 or early 2007; the children in the photo are all clearly listed as 2 years younger than they are now. Was Bristol Palin pregnant for 15 months?

So can we please stop humiliating a teenage girl yet?
posted by dgaicun at 6:12 AM on August 31, 2008 [12 favorites]

Wow, I hope that the Palins are not in charge of naming any more people or things. Cuz, Trig? Wow.
posted by Mister_A at 6:39 AM on August 31, 2008

He is someone I trust with foreign policy

That's a stunning admission. The man who sees military intervention as the solution to almost every international kerfuffle, in addition to his doubling and tripling and quadrupling down in Iraq because his ego won't permit him to admit that he was wrong?

This is someone that I don't want ANYWHERE NEAR foreign policy.
posted by psmealey at 6:59 AM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

So can we please stop humiliating a teenage girl yet?

Agreed.

Guys, by all reports she's been breastfeeding this child. While it is possible to induce lactation in a woman who has not given birth, its difficult. If she is nursing this baby, it'll be obvious to just about everyone who works with her or travels with her -- even if its just that she's disapearing every so often to pump and then there's bottles of breastmilk in the 'fridge.
posted by anastasiav at 7:08 AM on August 31, 2008

DEMOCRATS TAKE WARNING: McCain just closed the evangelical vote

Oh please. Evangelicals are extremists, and will show up to vote for Republicans no matter who is on the ticket. Does anyone seriously believe otherwise? Is there any data suggesting right-wing extremists were going to stay home on election day until Palin was announced? Color me extremely skeptical. Yes, they may now be making ringing endorsements of her, but that is not the same as them changing their vote. These people are thoroughly invested in the Republican party and will vote for them no matter who is VP.

Look, there is an ongoing culture war in this country that still hasn't come to head. We saw a lot of it in the 60s, and it has reared its ugly head now and then in the interim, and we're seeing it again in full force now. There's a huge divide in this country, and a lot of people fall on the Conservative side, whether you guys like it or not. To them, it's not so much about embracing Republican policies as it is about rejecting progressive ideas, because they are threatening to them.

The Republican party grokked this over a decade ago and have had so much success that they've transformed every aspect of this country to be in line with their beliefs, but somehow the supposedly smarter Liberals still have no fucking clue. Seriously, they have control of almost every aspect of this country -- our media, our economy, our social values -- and you still want to underestimate them because they are "stupid". Who's really being stupid here? The losers? Really, how does that work?

I think all the hand-wringing I see here about the VP choice is misguided. On the one hand you have the hopeless optimists who think that somehow her being a poor choice will hurt McCain's campaign. All I have to say to these people is, were you paying attention in 2004? Then on the other hand we have the cynics who think that somehow this decision was a hard-hitting blow to Obama's chances. What I say to you: We are already facing certain defeat. We are just going through the motions. No one except extreme partisans (like myself) give a shit about policy details. "Swing voters" (aka the stupidest people on the planet) will vote Republican because they hate faggots, niggers, and hippies (sorry for offensive terms). Spend less time on Internet forums and talk to these people and realize that their opinion is entirely based on hatred for one or more of the above.

The Republican party has cunningly capitalized on these fears and cultivated a boogeyman -- the Liberal -- while the Democrats have sat around arguing amongst themselves about whether everyone should be treated as if they were smart or stupid. We are fucking failing.

I really really hope I'm wrong about everything, and that Obama will sweep this election and steer our country back in the direction we deserve. I don't see this happening right now though. The extreme cluelessness I see in this thread about what's really happening in this election makes me very depressed.
posted by cj_ at 7:15 AM on August 31, 2008 [5 favorites]

Also, yes, lay off the "her 16yo daughter got pregnant and she pretended to be the mother" angle. Just let it go. It's almost certainly the case, but what you don't realize is that calling her out for this will totally backfire. I don't know about everyone else here, but I come from a disfunctional family myself. Attacking this woman's family is a sure way to look like an asshole.

I know you think that it makes her a hypocrite for being against birth control. But in reality she's being extremely consistent with her stated beliefs.
posted by cj_ at 7:28 AM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Also, yes, lay off the "her 16yo daughter got pregnant and she pretended to be the mother" angle. Just let it go. It's almost certainly the case...

Oh for fucks sake, did you even read my post? The whole basis for the rumor is a "pregnant" picture of the daughter.... taken in 2006!

... derrr, looks ma, da evydence Ubama is Muzzum.
posted by dgaicun at 7:38 AM on August 31, 2008

Oh please. Evangelicals are extremists, and will show up to vote for Republicans no matter who is on the ticket. Does anyone seriously believe otherwise? Is there any data suggesting right-wing extremists were going to stay home on election day until Palin was announced? Color me extremely skeptical. Yes, they may now be making ringing endorsements of her, but that is not the same as them changing their vote. These people are thoroughly invested in the Republican party and will vote for them no matter who is VP.

You're right, Evangelicals can be counted on to turn out for the Republican candidate. Many of them weren't that jazzed about McCain and as mefi's own Konolia said, his VP choice has brought excitement to the base. This is the difference between between blowing off going to the polling place if the weather is bad or something comes up and making sure you go. This is the difference between getting you just voting and getting up early and making sure you vote and everyone you know votes. That's what Gov. Palin brings.

It it won't matter in New York or California which are solid blue. The choice didn't matter in the solid red states. It comes down to the rural counties in the swing states. Like 2000 and 2004 it will come down to one or two states. Obama has been successful at getting out the vote but a lot of that success is in the places that would have voted for the democrat anyway.

Rove et al, aren't stupid. Clearly McCain has sold his soul to the machine to win this election at any cost. The straight talker from 2000 would kick the McCain of today's ass.
posted by birdherder at 7:51 AM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

The whole basis for the rumor is a "pregnant" picture of the daughter

Nah, there's more. It's the sudden announcement at 7 months, the leaking of fluid in Texas, yet insistence on giving a speech and then taking and 8 flight back and then going driving 45 minutes to a rural doctor to deliver the baby.

Even if the rumor isn't true, the above makes ya wonder about her judgement.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:53 AM on August 31, 2008

Let me spell it out....she and her husband have been blue collar workers. She will understand the blue collar subculture. And blue collar people will relate to her.

Dear Konolia,

Answer me this. If Sarah Palin was a pro-life evangelical Republican named Muffy McFancyPants Rothschild-Rockefeller IV, you would still probably vote for her. But would you still call her "refreshing" and praise her ability to relate to blue-collar workers? You'd look pretty silly if you did.

You're a single-issue voter on the abortion issue. That's fine. That's your right as an American. I can even view it as noble, because as you see it, you believe that you are saving defenseless lives. What gets my goat (and probably gets the goat of some other MeFites too) is the disingenuous dog-whistle appeals and references to fishing, "America," the blue-collar subculture etc. etc.

I'm assuming you don't mean anything malicious by this. You don't seem like a prejudiced person to me. But when you say about Sarah Palin "She IS America," that really does legitimately irk some people, because it comes in the context of a fringe of McCain supporters who insist that Barack Obama is NOT America and CANNOT BE America. An evangelical pro-life Alaskan ex-beauty queen, mooseburger-eating, commercial-fishing, fur-wearing, recently pregnant governor IS America. But so is the interracial son of a Kenyan economist and a Kansas anthropologist, the grandson of Hawaiian grandparents, the nephew of a soldier who liberated a concentration camp, the little boy who went to both Catholic and Muslim elementary schools in Indonesia, the Harvard Law Review editor who passed up big bucks to do community organizing for chump change, the University of Chicago professor of constitutional law who played basketball on the side, the Illinois state legislator who won respect by playing in weekly bipartisan poker games with his Republican colleagues, the orator who came out of nowhere in 2004 to give a speech that revived their sense of patriotism and what they stand for... This man IS America too. And a legion of Barack Obama's supporters are not going to let you forget that.
posted by jonp72 at 7:57 AM on August 31, 2008 [57 favorites]

Actually I see Obama as more global. Think about it.

That's not a slam at him, that's actually a feature, and a strong point. But it doesn't help him relate to Joe Sixpack.
posted by konolia at 8:04 AM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh, please. If his father was from Ireland instead of Africa, you wouldn't call him global.
posted by Bookhouse at 8:12 AM on August 31, 2008 [8 favorites]

Right on jonp.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:13 AM on August 31, 2008

Dear American liberal friends,

IGNORE HER UTERUS. I know that abortion rights are important, but you're not going to protect those rights by making this The Great Big Abortion Election. That's what they're trying to do.

For the first time in a long time, you've got a guy up front who can make the election about populist economic issues and win, and he can quote scripture a hundred times better than the Republican dude. The only way they win this is by dragging you back into another bloody culture war. Which you will lose, because you always lose those. Can't you see that this is what they want?

It doesn't matter how justified you think it might be to talk about her decision to have her baby, or her Secret Baby Conspiracy, or anything else that revolves around her uterus or the uteruses of her immediate family. I don't care how much you think it reveals her hypocrisy, or illuminates the danges of the anti-abortion movement, or whatever. It makes you sound like unpleasant assholes, and it will bring out Karl Rove's base in droves. Just ignore it. Sarah Palin's reproductive system can only lose you this election. So please, please, please do exactly what you've always wanted the government to do, and stay the hell out of it.

Regards, etc.
posted by flashboy at 8:14 AM on August 31, 2008 [13 favorites]

Technically, Michael Scott from "The Office" has more executive experience than Obama, Biden, and McCain.

Scott/Schrute '08!

Being President of the USA isn't about making sure forms are filled out correctly. It's about leadership in the broadest and grandest of senses. It's about having good ideas and communicating them. It's about steering the rudder of a giant "organization". There are NO jobs that fully prepare anyone for that. The only thing that makes a good president is having a vision and communicating and getting people to execute same. And having the intellectual curiosity and fortitude to gather people and facts to help guide that vision.

So can we please stop humiliating a teenage girl yet?

It's only humiliating if it's true and if her family raised her to believe that it was wrong.
posted by gjc at 8:21 AM on August 31, 2008

So, I'm considering the only upside to her selection is her pro-life get-out-the-evangelical-vote appeal. Can anyone explain to me why evangelicals would consider McCain on his own insufficient in this regard, despite his consistent pro-life stance over his 20+ years in DC?

The addition of a VP who may have pro-life OPINIONS, but no demonstrable RECORD (I could be entirely wrong about this, but I can't imagine how a city-council/mayor/governor has opportunity to flex any pro-life muscles) supporting these positions seems like a non-sequitor. This hyper-conservative appeal seems pretty manufactured.
posted by butterstick at 8:24 AM on August 31, 2008

"uteruses"

Such a hard to pronounce word. It lacks pizazz. I posit the following replacements:

uteri
uterati
uteren
uteralia?

Finally, what's the collective noun?
posted by gjc at 8:26 AM on August 31, 2008

Second of all, although her experience is limited, it has been the right kind of experience. I also like the fact that she ISN't one of those folks who have been around the political block forever. Fresh face, fresh ideas. Don't discount that. (After all, isn't that why so many folks are nuts for Obama?)

Frankly, after the trampling the constitution has taken over the last 7 years, I think a distinguished knowledge of constitutional law and a passion for civil rights is the right kind of experience.
posted by milarepa at 8:27 AM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Nah, there's more. It's the sudden announcement at 7 months, the leaking of fluid in Texas, yet insistence on giving a speech... Even if the rumor isn't true...

Jesus Christ, you really are a moron. Look, if you can't recognize and affirm, in no uncertain terms, what is a baseless, far-fetched political rumor, then you simply aren't an objective person - you are a partisan toad. Which, I guess, is fine, just don't think anyone should take you seriously when you inevitably bitch about partisan toads on the other side of the aisle who are stuck in their own inescapable black holes of partisan toadery.

Your opinion on the ethics a pregnant working mother's choices are noted, but no one outside of your toady blackhole could understand how any of it logically adds up to a convoluted theory that is, in fact, founded on a creepy misanaylsis of a teen girl's body in a misdated photo.
posted by dgaicun at 8:30 AM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

It's only humiliating if it's true and if her family raised her to believe that it was wrong.

Right, because most 16 year old girls would love to have their sex lfe discussed in public, it's not at all creepy that her mother is also part of the discussion.

I switched to the Democratic Party a few years ago because I was better than this kind of Rovian shit, so kindly shut the fuck up.
posted by Mick at 8:36 AM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

So can we please stop humiliating a teenage girl yet?
It's only humiliating if it's true

I assume that you have never met or been a teenager.
posted by Flunkie at 8:40 AM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

It's going to turn out to have been a costume, watch.
posted by cashman at 8:42 AM on August 31, 2008

The addition of a VP who may have pro-life OPINIONS, but no demonstrable RECORD (I could be entirely wrong about this, but I can't imagine how a city-council/mayor/governor has opportunity to flex any pro-life muscles) supporting these positions seems like a non-sequitor.

Record or not, any political figure has a chance to frame an issue and influence opinions. Palin didn't join Feminists for Life for nothing. And now we're talking about someone who could be appointing Supreme Court justices in the near future.

IGNORE HER UTERUS. I know that abortion rights are important, but you're not going to protect those rights by making this The Great Big Abortion Election. That's what they're trying to do.

So we don't actively discuss reproductive rights? That's the best way to protect them?

Look, here's what I think the response to her uterus issues ought to be:
Any time a McCain/Palin supporter lauds her for her choice to bring her 5th child to full term (as George Will just did this morning on This Week With George Stephanopoulos), point out that according to her beliefs, she didn't make a choice. We're still trying to suss out exactly what her stance is on contraception, but in the ideology she now represents to some voters, she didn't have a choice on whether or not to become pregnant.
posted by hydrophonic at 8:47 AM on August 31, 2008

I think Cindy MIGHT have something to worry about. McCain called her his soulmate. I think he has a crush.
posted by empath at 8:48 AM on August 31, 2008

re: 16 y.o. daughter is the mother of Trig...

If this story does catch on in the mainstream media, it will be refuted. And the GOP will say it is Obama spreading these terrible personal attacks. This is classic playbook stuff. It doesn't matter and the elite evil liberals attacking the mother of this special needs child will put even more fire into the cause of her supporters.

We've seen this movie before.

Leave this story to the Enquirer and Larry Flynnt, not dailyKOS. If it does turn out to be true, it would be pathetic and sad. It has nothing to do with the issues that are important.

Since People Magazine scored the first interview with Palin, I'm sure OK magazine will follow with "Bristol's Story" if it turns out to be true. The father? Kevin Federline or Alaskan equivalent. And while I'm in the muck, I'll just say that Sarah Palin looks like I could imagine Britney Spears will look when she's 44 if she stays clean.
posted by birdherder at 8:58 AM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Grampa Feely McSmearpants and the Broad '08 - They're as white as you!
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:08 AM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

Record or not, any political figure has a chance to frame an issue and influence opinions. Palin didn't join Feminists for Life for nothing. And now we're talking about someone who could be appointing Supreme Court justices in the near future.

Still not sure how her membership in FFL motivates the base more than McCain's 20+ year record advocating for pro-life (and anti-woman; voted against Biden's domestic violence bill) legislation. I really can't square this circle, and everything I'm hearing in support of this pick fails to pass scrutiny.

And for the record, I agree that preposterous rumors should remain the domain of the National Enquirer or Star magazine. My candidate (Obama) seems to be on about raising the level of discourse and doing away with identity politics and the politics of personal destruction.
posted by butterstick at 9:13 AM on August 31, 2008

The Republican party grokked this over a decade ago and have had so much success that they've transformed every aspect of this country to be in line with their beliefs, but somehow the supposedly smarter Liberals still have no fucking clue.

Most American's beliefs are in line with liberals on the issues. The Republicans have been very successful in tarnishing the word "liberal," but polls consistently show most Americans hold "liberal" views. They needed media bias and chicanery in the last two elections to barely beat candidates who were less inspiring and who ran worse campaigns than Obama. Since they can't win straight-up on the issues, they rely on fear, divisiveness, and muddying the waters to fool people into voting against their best interests.

This is just going to get worse and worse as the United States becomes a majority-minority country. The crowd at the Democratic convention looked like that new America; a very diverse melting pot. The Republican convention will likely be less diverse.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:22 AM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

I find it absolutely astounding that there are people who want another four years of the same country-destroying political thinking.

Konolia, give your head a shake!
posted by five fresh fish at 9:28 AM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Your opinion on the ethics a pregnant working mother's choices are noted, but no one outside of your toady blackhole could understand how any of it logically adds up to a convoluted theory that is, in fact, founded on a creepy misanaylsis of a teen girl's body in a misdated photo.

Good morning, dgaicun.

Just a reminder, you wrote the rumor was passed solely on a photo. When I commented that people were actually basing the rumor on more than just a photo, (with no statement from me that I agreed with them), and provided a link to a website about Alaskan politics that demostrated, you response is “You're a moron”, then go on to say that I'm not objective, which you can say about anyone really so it's poor insult, then call me a partisan toad, based on nothing more than ~~a photo~~ couple of comments. Then you proceed to imply that I shouldn't bitch about partisan toads on the other side, since I'm being a partisan toad myself. Geez, could you at least produce a photo of me doing these things before you start accusing me of doing them?

Finally, none of your personal attacks have anything to do with the fact that people are basing this rumor on more than a single photo, despite what you may think and seem to be insisting on.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:38 AM on August 31, 2008

Maybe I'm wrong and people will only become more ignorant, but I think the first step to solving these problems is to consider this "stupidity" as a different point of view

Yeah. We should consider an immoral war of aggression, the slaughter of tens of thousands of innocent humans beings, and the immoral occupation and theft of their natural resources (all funded by our tax dollars) as "just another point a view. We should consider the deliberate distortion and subversion of scientific fact for private profit and to the detriment of all human civilization as "as just a different point of view."

It's kinda like how we should consider white supremacy or female genital mutilation as "just other points of view." Oh. Wait. We don't do we.

Well. The policies of this supposed "point of view" are an unmitigated disaster that have real life and death consequences. Wake the fuck up. All of it is made possible because the modern republican party has completely embraced and cultivated ignorance in order to maintain power.

These people SHOULD feel ashamed of these positions and attitudes just like people who are racists should feel ashamed. These attitudes have to be stigmatized and treated precisely as the anathema to modern civilization that they are. treating this level of ignorance as "just another point of view" is simply a tacit endorsement of suicidal stupidity.

Good luck with that.
posted by tkchrist at 9:41 AM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

I'm not so sure about that. The voters have a right to know, don't you think?

No, they don't. I felt that way about Bill Clinton's infidelity - the only person who had a right to know was Hillary Clinton, and she had a find out in privacy, not while being watched by a nation of peeping perverts. And the voters have even less right to know about the private lives of people who just happened to be related to politicians. Frankly the rumour is patently false, but the fact that it is even being spred is very distasteful. I hope to god that it doesn't make its way out of the muckosphere into the media; if it does, it should be soundly denounced as disgusting by all of the candidates.

Voters have a right to know about corruption, about bribery, about questionable no-bid contracts. They have a right to know about economic performance and military strategy. Why don't we start demanding that our media covers those stories?

There's a reason most of us don't have sex in public; it's a private thing. And if we want to government to stay out of our bedrooms, we should stay out of theirs.
posted by jb at 9:44 AM on August 31, 2008 [4 favorites]

I know it's comforting to have someone leading who has a little worldview, like so many people in small towns, but it's not a direction American needs help finding.

Obama is more global? He IS America, he is far more what we should hope America embodies than an out-of-touch Alaskan that lives in a remote area. Americans should be proud to have a person with a wide-ranging point of view like his leading our country. I honestly think it will be a bit lamentable if more people in American identify with her than with Obama - he has a lot more promise to offer and is a lot more proof of that American Dream.
posted by agregoli at 9:50 AM on August 31, 2008

When John Met Sarah.
posted by ericb at 9:52 AM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Cindy McCain: Palin knows foreign policy because ‘Alaska is the closest part of our continent to Russia.’
posted by ericb at 9:53 AM on August 31, 2008 [4 favorites]

on a completely unrelated note -- I was shocked by how very low the number of immigrants in the United States is.

According to the New York Times line above, foreign-born Americans are currently only about 12 percent of the population; the historic high was in the 1910, when nearly 15 percent were foreign-born.

The article does mention how this will likely be exceeded by 2025, and that the percentage may approach 20 percent by 2050. But right now in Canada, almost 20% of our population is foreign-born, and in Australia it is 22.2%. So the two most immigrant heavy countries in the world are Canada and Australia. (Of course, America has many more non-white people (last time I checked, Canada's non-native visible minority population was only about 9%), but not through recent immigration.)

I wonder how this would affect the common view of America as the primary "immigrant nation" if this were more widely known? Why isn't it more commonly known?
posted by jb at 10:01 AM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

Cindy McCain: Palin knows foreign policy because ‘Alaska is the closest part of our continent to Russia.’

I was just coming to post that video, ericb. You have GOT to be kidding me. You can't be serious. The possible first lady is saying that? You have got to be kidding me. No come on, this has to be a joke. Seriously?
posted by cashman at 10:05 AM on August 31, 2008

Man. And she has "foreign policy experience" because of Alaska's proximity to 'Russia?" But Poin has ever BEEN to "Russia." In fact Sarah Palin didn't have a passport until 2007? Jeebus Chronst.

I rest my god damned case. Do we need any more proof how stupid people are to buy into such total bullshit.
posted by tkchrist at 10:14 AM on August 31, 2008

And her total foreign travel experience consists of a one trip to visit Alaskan National Guard troops in Kuwait and Germany and a second trip to Ireland.
posted by ericb at 10:21 AM on August 31, 2008

The other reason why the "is-she or isn't-she Trig's mom?" story is a non-starter is this: I can tell you, as someone who survived an evangelical upbringing, and as someone whose family is still largely evangelical, that even if the rumor proved to be true, the evangelicals will love her all the more for it.

You're talking about a culture in which teen pregnancy is still seen as a massive moral failure, something worth of shame. A mother taking on the child of her child would be regarded as a hero, someone who is willing to go to any length to protecting her family, their reputation, and the life her daughter is carrying.

Trust me: it's not the kind of thing that would lose her any support among her already-ardent fanbase, and the dems would be very, very wise to let it lie.
posted by shiu mai baby at 10:37 AM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

I'm not so sure about that. The voters have a right to know [about the baby rumor], don't you think? Perhaps the matter could be cleared up by calling several hundred thousand

I'm not really sure about that; I mean it doesn't really seem relevant. But the other thing is, someone mentioned up thread that Down Syndrom is very rare in babies born to teen mothers, and it's much more common in women who have children later in life. So it's much more likely that Sarah is the true mother. All of the pictures on this page don't really show Sarah's Belly at all, she always is wearing something loose and frumpy.

And anyway, there would never be any way to prove any of this, so frankly speculating on it is kind of disgusting.

All I have to say to these people is, were you paying attention in 2004? Then on the other hand we have the cynics who think that somehow this decision was a hard-hitting blow to Obama's chances. What I say to you: We are already facing certain defeat. We are just going through the motions.

You're an idiot.
posted by delmoi at 10:40 AM on August 31, 2008

So many important points raised by that Cindy McCain clip - thanks for posting, ericb.

First, there's my simple scientician's quibble, which I'm wondering if we'll be seeing Sarah Palin making imminently, which is that the proximity of Alaska and Russia isn't as relevant as you might think because there were no people on the earth when there was a Bering land bridge, because there have only been people on earth for maybe 6,000 years. Because that, as Cindy McCain so eloquately speaks, is the experience that she comes from.

Second, and perhaps most pertinent, is that I believe you can raise the PT Barnum Principle to the power of ten when it comes to geography. To wit: no one ever lost election (and indeed some maybe even won a few) by underestimating the average American's knowledge of basic geography. Never mind that there's a swath of almost impassable wilderness perhaps twice as wide as America itself between Wasilla and Moscow. Both places are, you know, like way up there somewhere like almost in China or Asia or something, vis a vis konolia's semi-mythic lunchbucket sixpack heartland masses.

Third, and I can't say this more emphatically, I find myself amazed anew by the American political process every four years like some newborn babe in the darkest and most fairydusted of woods. I think surely it can't get any weirder or sillier or more debased without it coming apart at the seams like some Wile E. Coyote contraption and sending the whole mess hurtling to the canyon floor. And then there you go, the RNC convention is set to start the same day the city it abandoned to nature's fate a few years back in probably the most egregious bureaucratic and humanitarian failure in American history, a city still waiting in many areas for a concerted reconstruction effort, is about to be leveled once again, not even to get into the trillion-dollar war boondoggle or the asinine just-keep-drilling energy policy - and a more significant thread in the conversation is about whether the nakedly incompetent GOP VP candidate has learned enough about Russian affairs by some kind of osmotic process to be able to run the country.

Bravo, America - I am again rendered breathless and gape-jawed at the spectacle.

By the way, konolia, I'm keenly aware this whole post reeks of elitism, but then by your definition - i.e. being even marginally curious about things happening outside your electoral district - I'm pretty sure the vast majority of the population of my home and native land constitutes an elite. We're all okay with that.
posted by gompa at 10:40 AM on August 31, 2008 [16 favorites]

It appears konolia and her church gang are single-issue voters.

Excuse me if this has been brought up (I've only waded through 2/3 of the comments), but the "church gang" isn't going to be as unified on this as you think. The some segments of extreme conservative right wing aren't going to vote for a woman in a position of power over men. Church of Christ, Pentecostals, some Catholics... maybe Mormons or Hassidic Jews (I don't know what their line is on this). I grew up in the rural South, and I knew people like this.

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God” (1 Corinthians 11:3)

But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
1 Timothy 2:12-14

[As for] my people, children [are] their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause [thee] to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.
Isaiah 3:12

These are the arguments trotted out to keep women out of leadership roles in the church, but it also appear to pertain to female referees. So yeah... Palin isn't going to go over for a lot of christian zealots.
posted by kimdog at 10:41 AM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

Palin drawing women's attention, maybe not allegiance

"Some, particularly women leaning toward a Republican ticket or who share Palin's staunch anti-abortion views, see it as a winning choice that they can happily embrace. But others, particularly the undecided women McCain is trying to reach, say this is the wrong woman, lacking experience and on the wrong side of the issues, like abortion, the Iraq war and the environment, that matter most to them.

Some Clinton stalwarts took offense, saying they felt as if McCain had decided that, for women disappointed that they could not vote for Clinton, any woman would do. 'It's an insult,' said Jan Roller, a Clinton delegate from Cleveland, as she arrived home from the convention. 'You have to be qualified for the job.'"

posted by ericb at 10:41 AM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

"This surely is the kind of decision-maker McCain turns out to be: ignore your true instincts (Lieberman), throw the dice and hope you don't shoot craps. It's how the Palin decision seems to have been made, and the lack of input and communication has upset Republicans from Romney to Pawlenty, stuck on the Sunday shows to gamely bear witness to the 'good first impression' unknown who nonetheless is a weak VP pick based on qualifications. Hockey mom that she is, she herself should understand that she is an up-and-comer, a future draft choice, not a current first line player. That has nothing to do with her, and everything to do with her resume. No one can 'make up for that' by being charming, and, by the way, a mom. Those are not the only qualifications for being President, something we'll (alas) see on Monday and Tuesday when Gustav hits (a warning to Republicans: politicizing a storm of this potential is a career ender.)

The one thing it does is excite the creationist base. And the one thing that an Obama win will do is to drive home the point that they are not the majority in this country, merely the decision-makers in the Republican party.

If you read the pundits and the news stories, the longer the Palin choice is out there, the worse it looks. And it highlights the essential element of the Republican party, the social conservatives, who simply are not a majority in this country. Presumably the people who think we are moving in the right direction as a country and think Brownie did a heckuva job will love it." ^*

posted by ericb at 10:47 AM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

Frank Rich | NYTimes

"The main reason McCain knuckled under to the religious right by picking Palin is that he actually believes there’s a large army of embittered Hillary loyalists who will vote for a hard-line conservative simply because she’s a woman. That’s what happens when you listen to the TV news echo chamber. Not only is the whole premise ludicrous, but it is every bit as sexist as the crude joke McCain notoriously told about Janet Reno, Hillary and Chelsea Clinton.

Given the press’s track record so far, there’s no reason to believe that the bogus scenarios will stop now."

posted by ericb at 10:49 AM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Shannen Coffin | National Review

"The choice also says a lot about McCain. First, that he is a bit desparate. McCain likely thought it would be difficult to make a splash with a conventional Republican sidekick. Changing the subject from Thursday's Obama-thon would be difficult with Mit Romney or Kay Bailey Hutchinson (who would have been an awful choice anyway) by his side. The choice of Palin certainly gives us all something new to talk about. And she is fresh, smart (as far as I can tell from a brief time studying her), enthusiastic and energetic. But it is a bit of a political Hail Mary pass. Second, that he is one arrogant SOB. McCain is essentially telling the world that he doesn't really need a Vice President. It is hard to imagine Palin playing the same sort of role that modern Vice Presidents like Gore, Bush, Cheney, or Mondale played. Rather, the Office would seem poised to return to the 'proverbial warm bucket of p***' category. McCain has thus made a purely political play without regard for the governance concerns. And how could he really have a good idea of how she would govern? My understanding is that he only met with her once before choosing her."

posted by ericb at 10:52 AM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

...someone mentioned up thread that Down Syndrom is very rare in babies born to teen mothers, and it's much more common in women who have children later in life.

"80% of the cases of Down's Syndrome are in mother's under the age of 35."
posted by ericb at 10:57 AM on August 31, 2008

"There could be calls...that this type of information [investigating the Bristol Palin preganancy rumor] is muckraking and 'below us'. The truth is not below any progressive, nor any citizen of the world that is one heartbeat away from having Palin as leader of the free world. We simply ask that she be forthright, honest, and not waste our time with such juvenile games that anyone with eyes can see as fabrication.

Bristol Palin rightfully should be able to embrace her child in public as her own, with no shame, and no quarter. And a mother should be just as accepting." ^*

posted by ericb at 11:00 AM on August 31, 2008

You could spend the rest of your life pointing out the utterly un-Christian, hateful immorality of Palin's hypocrisies and McCain's voting record to folks like Konolia. She and her friends will goose-step right into the voting booth for Palin.

You won't make a single-issue voter vote for Obama. But if you give them enough reasons to dislike any of the candidates, they may stay home. And a lot of evangelicals were not warming up to McCain--until now.
posted by Anonymous at 11:10 AM on August 31, 2008

"80% of the cases of Down's Syndrome are in mother's under the age of 35."

ericb, that's one of the most disingenuous uses of statistics that I've seen in a long, long time.

Yes, most children with Down Syndrome are born to mothers under the age of 35.

Most children are born to mothers under the age of 35.

And "35"? Why "35"? We're talking about a sixteen year old. The chance of the child of a sixteen year old having Down Syndrome is very, very small.

You should be embarrassed to use a statistic like this to back an argument like this.
posted by Flunkie at 11:12 AM on August 31, 2008 [4 favorites]

ericb, I can understand your argument that "Babygate" would be a legitimate topic, but only if it were true. I think dgaicun's post does an excellent job of debunking the pregnancy rumor. In order for the Babygate conspiracy to be true, you'd need doctors and all the reporters who noticed she was pregnant to be in on the conspiracy. That doesn't survive Occam's Razor. That doesn't survive even basic common sense. Palin has so many other weaknesses as both a candidate and as a potential successor to the presidency that it's nonsensical to go making up smears out of whole cloth.
posted by jonp72 at 11:16 AM on August 31, 2008

Cindy McCain: Palin knows foreign policy because 'Alaska is the closest part of our continent to Russia.'

As Jon Stewart pointed out, "Alaska's also near the North Pole, so she must also be friends with Santa."

the 'is-she or isn't-she Trig's mom?' story is a non-starter

Also, it was plot line on Desperate Housewives.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:16 AM on August 31, 2008

I really hope the specter of this whole sister/mother brou-ha-ha dies down quickly. It will not serve Obama's case a whit and is just degrading to all involved.

Personally, I never got very big when pregnant and if I had the significant boobage that Sarah Palin has (I figure that and the glasses are where the sexy librarian tag comes from - I don't think she has the well read, funky intellectual look that I would ascribe to a sexy librarian) perhaps I could have hidden a pregnancy for months.

There will never be a definitive answer, so why bother? People's lives are often messy. I think she didn't announce her pregnancy widely because it may have been a bit of a suprise and she may have been thinking that there may be a miscarriage of some sort, so why involve the public at large? She may have miscarried before - and it is none of our business, really.

I say, let her talk and listen to her. She will talk about two things - family values and Gasoline prices/opening up ANWAR. That's what they picked her to do. I see her as a a boon to both things that are meaningful to people not paying close attention, abortion/baby killing and why does gas cost so much? I'm sure she will make it seem that cheap gas is just around the corner, thanks to her great state of Alaska - but enviromental elitists are sticking their hand in your pocket for some pie in the sky thinking.

She will put her foot in her mouth at some point, but the die hard, one issue voters will vote McCain anyway.
posted by readery at 11:22 AM on August 31, 2008

Maybe I'm wrong and people will only become more ignorant, but I think the first step to solving these problems is to consider this "stupidity" as a different point of view

Have you seen Idiocracy? The only problem is I think Mike Judge's dystopian future of complete idiots and giant megacorporations is happening a lot faster than expected.

And the Cindy McCain foreign policy experience because lives close to Alaska? That's bullshit! On my map Alaska is down off the coast of California next to Hawaii.

When Steve Dooce said that on Fox and Friends on Friday I expected it coming from him. I know nothing about Cindy McCain (except I did see her in person once when I was in the same office building as McCain's office in Phoenix) but I thought she'd be a little smarter than Steve Dooce.

I have more experience negotiating with the Russians than Palin does. Sure, it was a brief matter of standing before passport control when I entered and left Moscow. But just because I live in the state next to Mexico doesn't mean I'm an expert on it (but more of an expert on it than Palin is of Russia because at least I've been to Mexico!)

If they (the Republicans) were going to tout foreign policy experience, I'm sure she's actually had some meeting with Canada over that pipeline project. That's real. It's not as sexy as Russia, but it is more credible than proximity on a map.
posted by birdherder at 11:30 AM on August 31, 2008

ericb, I can understand your argument that "Babygate" would be a legitimate topic...

It's not my argument. I was posting what the author of the DailyKOS blog diary presents as his/her argument. Those are not my words....it's a quote with a hyperlink to the original.
posted by ericb at 11:37 AM on August 31, 2008

I really hope the specter of this whole sister/mother brou-ha-ha dies down quickly. It will not serve Obama's case a whit and is just degrading to all involved.

The Obama camp won't touch it with a ten-foot pole.

The rumor -- like those having been spread about Obama -- will have a life of its own online, in conversations, etc. Expect more.

Remember the rumor in 2000 claiming John McCain had fathered a "black baby?" "Would you be more likely or less likely to vote for John McCain for president if you knew he had fathered an illegitimate black child?" "Christian conservatives eagerly spread baseless rumors that McCain had consorted with prostitutes, another old Clinton-bashing smear, and that he was also homosexual."^*

It's all out of the Rove playbook, but this time coming from other quarters.
posted by ericb at 11:49 AM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Was Bristol Palin pregnant for 15 months?

the days are long in alaska...
posted by quonsar at 11:50 AM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

So we don't actively discuss reproductive rights? That's the best way to protect them?

Look, here's what I think the response to her uterus issues ought to be:
Any time a McCain/Palin supporter lauds her for her choice to bring her 5th child to full term (as George Will just did this morning on This Week With George Stephanopoulos), point out that according to her beliefs, she didn't make a choice.

There's a world of difference between camly and cleary stating your policy on reproductive rights (which is the sensible approach) and dirt-digging on the specific reproductive choices of the Republican vice-presidential candidate (which makes you look mean, hypocritical and not a little crazy). They're the ones that want to make Palin into a poster-girl for the abortion debate. They're the ones framing the issue. The way to win that game is to not play it.

The American left keeps losing elections when they turn into culture wars. This isn't because you're in a minority when it comes to the actual policies, but because it energises the other side far more than you, and because it makes floating voters irrationally scared of you. Unless you think that the reason you keep losing culture wars is because you just weren't quite shrill and patronising enough last time round, then surely you see that the best way to protect reproductive rights is to win the damn election?
posted by flashboy at 11:53 AM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

Rumor Control: Keeping Momentum in a Presidential Campaign.
posted by ericb at 11:53 AM on August 31, 2008

I just hope this election doesn't become a taste of whether America is more racist, or more sexist. – Deathalicious

Forgive me for coming to this realization rather late – but is the GOP presuming, on the strategy of appeasing Hillary backers/PUMAs with a female running-mate, that their objective was not to have a Woman reach the historic threshold on their watch first – but rather, that the important thing was to have a woman reach it ahead of any black person?
Mindful there must be women still bitter enough to remind us females were left without voting rights even after black male US citizens won theirs early last century; one preceded the other. But I can’t believe McCain’s strategists honestly thought you could simultaneously target disgruntled Hillary supporters AND the right wing conservatives with *just any* woman, unless this underlying racist sentiment is at the heart of it.

oops, she probably has five (undocumented?) nannies! -- Surfurrus

Which is why I fail to see the mainstream appeal of Palin’s mommy factor. Many middle-class or lower-class families are stretched thin by unplanned pregnancies reaching to child #4 or 5; how is the celebration of a privileged family (no different than President Carter with his four, including a daughter arriving late in life? This didn’t endear him any more to the voter base we speak of did it?) able to tend to multiple children without being sunk into debt a reflection of the needs of struggling mothers that most typify the target demographic?

That said – she must have nannies! With a workout schedule of 7-10 miles a day, even running an 11-minute mile (in that high elevation, at her age, we’re talking a very fit person!) yet it would still consume 1 ½-2 hours of her daily routine, plus governing and traveling (i.e. a guest speaker in TX when her latest newborn came due). When *does* she get to see or raise her kids with that schedule? Celebrity-status indeed – even Brangelina can tote Baby #5 and #6 without it causing mid-Americana to ‘relate’ more to them, nor qualifying them to juggle VP responsibilities as if they were just residences (3 chez Palin) to manage or PTA meetings to keep up?
posted by skyper at 11:54 AM on August 31, 2008

October 2007: Top 10 Craziest Rumors about the 2008 Candidates.
posted by ericb at 11:55 AM on August 31, 2008

I almost hate to say this, simply because the derailment of the Republican ticket would be so spectacularly wonderful if the daughter/grandchild rumour were true, but...

In that Daily Kos video, she actually does look about 5 months pregnant in the wider closing shots from 9:30 - 10:00. I'm a little surprised to see her walking down snowy, wet Alaskan streets in heels, but I'm hardly prepared to start dictating to pregnant women what constitutes appropriate attire in pregnancy.

Additionally, there's been a lot of noise about the unlikelihood of her daughter having mono for that extended a period. I'm prepared to believe it isn't typical, but when I had mono I was exceedingly ill for more than six months and wasn't able to return to work or school for a year - I was that sick for that long.

Don't get me wrong - I hate this woman's politics and I think she's a grossly under qualified VP, and there's no chance I'd vote for her. But until there's some actual evidence to prove otherwise, I'm prepared to believe this child is hers. There are enough reasons to point and laugh at Sarah Palin without picking apart her bump and her choices about how to manage her labour and delivery. I believe in a woman's right to choose is tied to her right to privacy, and that choices around pregnancy and birth are private matters. I'd be a hypocritical liberal if I didn't apply that standard to Palin just because she doesn't want that standard to apply to me. Or any one else, for that matter.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:08 PM on August 31, 2008

"The governor's labor began while she was in Texas, and I do know that she got on a plane and landed in Anchorage late last night," said Palin spokeswoman Sharon Leighow.
-From the Anchorage Daily News, April, 2008.

For me, this is the most damning piece of material supporting the claims that the kid isn't hers. There is no way in hell a woman with four prior labors gets on a plane and flys six hours to Anchorage in labor. I seriously doubt labor would last half that long in most G5's, and don't imagine most flight crews would even consent to fly her anywhere other than the nearest hospital.

So yes, I suspect the rumors are spot on.
posted by docpops at 12:21 PM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

The Top 10 Rumors article is interesting -- it had Edwards' affair in October of last year.
posted by empath at 12:28 PM on August 31, 2008

It's not the pictures of the supposedly 7-months pregnant Palin but the other facts surrounding Palin's pregnancy that are failing the sniff test for my wife and some other women i know.

And, if it turns out to be true, my deepest sympathies for the daughter, but I do think Palin should be taken to task for it. This woman is essentially applying to be my overlord, to have the resources of the nation marshaled to protect and exalt her in a way that they will not for the so-called average citizen with whom she supposedly has so very much in common.

She is applying for a position that will make her parts of groups and councils that wield tremendous power over not just American citizens but billions of souls on this orb. If she deserves such a position, she had better be head and shoulders above the rest of us in ways that matter to the job at hand. Engaging in an epic cover-up should disqualify her.

In fact, were I on a hiring committee, I would strongly advise against hiring a person who had done something such as what she is alleged to have done: even if there's no there there with regard to an alleged scandal of covering up a teenage pregnancy , flying and not reporting the leaking of amniotic fluid is, according to my wife and other mothers, an act of astonishing negligence that indicates poor judgment.

With all that said, and whatever the outcome of the Republican VP drama, I'm looking forward to seeing huge voter turnout this year. I recall stories of civics teachers crying in 2004 due to low voter turnout, and whatever else happens, I don't think that's going to be the case in 2008.
posted by lord_wolf at 12:29 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

speaking of McCain's black baby rumors ... seriously, why is his adopted daughter never with them in photos? I've very literally never seen her. He poses with his family for people and doesn't include her?
posted by Bookhouse at 12:33 PM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

flying and not reporting the leaking of amniotic fluid is, according to my wife and other mothers, an act of astonishing negligence that indicates poor judgment.

I didn't even go there because I assume she flew charter, but yeah, motherfucking hell, if she flew commercial with ruptured membranes then I really don't even know where to point fingers, as such a thing speaks to negligence and stupidity that is beyond baffling. It would place serious questions of whether she really though through the incredible risks to her child if it were born at 36K feet without medical support.

On a different note, if she can't even pull off a ruse of covering up her kids pregnancy by not travelling in the final weeks, then I bet Cheneys gotta be shitting himself that such a naive piker is going to be trying to fill his steel-toed loafers.
posted by docpops at 12:46 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

docpops, Alaska Airlines is on record as saying it has no restrictions on pregnant passengers. There are a couple of quotes from them that I've read today, I just can't locate them right now. As to progression from an amniotic fluid to the actual birth, here's some information for you on typical presentations. There is nothing really conclusive here about her judgement one way or the other. Any number of things could have been happening there; my best guess is that if this baby is hers, she sprung a slow leak in Texas and gave birth a day later, so in retrospect, the spokeswoman says "her labour began in Texas." But in actual fact, membrane rupture is not synonymous with labour: "If you are close to your due date and have ruptured your membranes, labor usually begins within 24 hours." You can hang around for days with a slow leak and no labour at all, though.

I'm just really uncomfortable with the idea that how a women chooses to conduct her labour and delivery is reflection of her political judgement. Like I said, Palin's political judgement is poor enough on its own merits without having to put her in stirrups for added ammo.
posted by DarlingBri at 12:53 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

I bet Cheneys gotta be shitting himself that such a naive piker is going to be trying to fill his steel-toed loafers.

Cheney doesn't give a shit. His work here is done. He may have failed at war on Iran (although there are still 4 months left of his reign), but the Georgia/Russia conflict was a nice bit of work.
posted by kimdog at 1:03 PM on August 31, 2008

A known fluid leak typically sets the clock ticking for delivery within 24 hours, after which the risk of infection goes up. Someone who is aware of a rupture, or even if it might just be urine, is taking chances that seem unusual and/or inappropriate in today's climate. Maybe it's an Alaska thing. Nonetheless, unless her prior births were quite long, the idea of flying with a presumed amniotic fluid leak so you can deliver in your home state instead of any of a dozen top institutions withing a few hundred miles seems insane.
posted by docpops at 1:04 PM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

Did you mean: "...without having to put her in stirrups for added amnio"?
posted by ericb at 1:04 PM on August 31, 2008

I, too, think that the rumors around the Palin child should be dropped. Just remember, McCain has Karl Rove on his team and digging too deep here will just give them an opening for their own accusations:

"If you knew that Senator Obama fathered not only one but two black children, would you be more or less likely to vote for him?"
posted by sour cream at 1:07 PM on August 31, 2008

Docpops must not be an obstetrician. I KNOW the press doesn't have a medical degree.

Occasionally we women do spring a leak re amniotic fluid, and as was mentioned above, labor does not automatically start.

Speaking of baby bumps, one of the gals I know at church is due to deliver in one and one half months. She barely HAS a baby bump.

Now it is true most women look pretty big that far along. I did. My daughter did. But I have known -and seen-some women (most pretty fit) who literally do not show or show very little till almost right up to due date.

And I think the rumor that this woman hid her daughter's pregnancy by pretending to be pregnant is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my entire life.
posted by konolia at 1:09 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

(Okay, docpops might know what he is talking about, on lack of preview, but still.)

By the way, it would not surprise me in the least if Alaskan medical culture was a lot more relaxed in areas like pregnancy and labor management.
posted by konolia at 1:12 PM on August 31, 2008

"On Friday, April 18th, 2008, Sarah and her husband Todd were in Dallas, Texas for a Republican Governor's Convention. They had been in town for three days already, but Sarah had yet to give her keynote speaker address on energy policy. Then early Friday morning at 4:00am, Sarah began leaking amniotic fluid. Instead of checking into a hospital, she instead made a call to her doctor, and delivered the keynote speech.
'I was not going to miss that speech,' she says.

She rushed so quickly from the podium afterwards that Texas Gov. Rick Perry nervously asked if she was about to deliver the baby then.
The oddities only grow from here on, as instead of rushing to a Dallas medical facility that could treat a mother who's amniotic fluid has been draining for hours on end (made even more crucial due to the fact that this is occurring a full month prematurely), Sarah & Todd instead opted to... fly all the way back from Texas to Alaska. A dangerous choice, as with each pregnancy (once again, in this case after four previous), a mother's window of labor to delivery grows shorter and shorter.

Aboard Alaska Airlines, the flight lasted for eight hours, with an additional landing in Seattle. The majority of commercial airlines require mothers seven months pregnant to provide a doctor's letter to fly, but Sarah did not inform the airline of her condition. Alaska Airlines is one of the few airlines that do not require such a notice, despite the possibility of an emergency landings being required in such scenarios. That said, no one on board noticed that Sarah was going into labor:
'"We leave the decision to fly up to our customers and their medical advisers," according to Alaska Airlines representative Caroline Boren.

...'Governor Palin was extremely pleasant to flight attendants and her stage of pregnancy was not apparent by observation as she didn’t show any signs of distress,' Boren said."
Eight months pregnant. A 6.2 pound fetus. No one notices a visible trace. By the third trimester, a perfectly fit woman not wearing anything less than a space suit should be easily spotted as pregnant. Not in Sarah's case.

The plane then made a landing in Anchorage, Alaska. Does Sarah then visit a medical facility that can accommodate a premature birth in Alaska's most equipped city? No. She drives 45 minutes away, to Mat-Su Regional Medical Center, right outside the small village she used to govern as Mayor, Wasilla. Trig Palin is then delivered one month premature, Friday night. Sarah returned to work after three days.

The inherent need to absolutely have Trig delivered in a remote and possibly ill-equipped facility for premature deliveries, where Sarah would likely have numerous contacts and pull, does not sit well. The doctor, Cathy Baldwin-Johnson, approving of all of these actions borders on malpractice. Not treating leaking amniotic fluid causes infections, and time is of the essence after water breaks. Husband Todd Palin simply delivers this winner of a line:
'You can't have a fish picker from Texas,' said Todd."^*

posted by ericb at 1:13 PM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

Alaskan medical culture...

Huh? Because they're hicks or sumtin'?
posted by ericb at 1:14 PM on August 31, 2008

BTW, for you Obama fans, you might want to work on something...I forgot to mention-when one of my fitness instructors told me she was voting for McCain, she also said-and her exact words were something like this: "she wasn't voting for that Communist" meaning Obama.

Also, at church people kept coming up to me all excited about the election now. That is definitely new. So if McCain's purpose was to get the Christians to get out and vote in November, I think he has accomplished it. (My son btw still doesn't trust him, thinks he is using Palin for political gain, and will be writing in a candidate on principle.)
posted by konolia at 1:18 PM on August 31, 2008

Palin judged that she would be fine, and Palin's doctor agreed with her judgment:

""I don't think it was unreasonable for her to continue to travel back," [Palin's doctor] Baldwin-Johnson said...This was going to be Palin's last flight anyway, her doctor said.

Alaska Airlines has no such rule and leaves the decision to the woman and her doctor, said spokeswoman Caroline Boren."

How any of this logically supports a comically byzantine mother-daughter swircheroo conspiracy theory (which was originally predicated on incompetent and easily debunked photo "evidence"), I sure don't know, but a lot of mouth-breathers seem to really want to see it.
posted by dgaicun at 1:21 PM on August 31, 2008

I bet Cheneys gotta be shitting himself that such a naive piker is going to be trying to fill his steel-toed loafers.

Joe Biden is not a naive piker.
posted by Flunkie at 1:22 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Docpops must not be an obstetrician.

No konolia, I'm a Family Practicioner. But for three years in the last decade I delivered over 200 infants, and a large part of my residency was spent practicing prenatal care in an inner city clinic which was rich with high-risk young pregnancy, so my comments are based on a lot more than shit-stirring speculation, but I get your point. It may seem unbelievable to you, but I really couldn't care less about the 'rumor' - the conservatives seem to have long since made peace with the fact that their idiotic policies about sex education have merely resulted in more illegitimate grandkids to raise, so I'm mostly baffled why someone who seems to be pretty self-assured and grounded, and whose platform of honesty got her into office wouldn't just come out with the truth.

Again, a rational person does not fly eight hours on a plane with ruptured membranes, especially when you know the baby is high risk, as Down's kids often have heart defects that would make the presence of a neonatal resuscitation team a given. If it is her kid, then she strikes me as a selfish or ignorant fool based on that fact alone.
posted by docpops at 1:22 PM on August 31, 2008 [22 favorites]

ericb, I am referring to national cultural differences. My husband is from the western slope of Colorado, for instance, and people see certain things way differently out there. As for Alaska, I'm thinking they have not fallen into the overmedicalization of birth a la the private New York hospital type. Perhaps some Alaskan mefites could weigh in here?

(I would never call Alaskans or rural Coloradoans hicks. That is insulting and ridiculous. I have a lot of respect for people who live in areas known for rugged independence-which these areas certainly are.)
posted by konolia at 1:22 PM on August 31, 2008

I am amazed at the amount of energy and negative judgment directed at someone based on the flimsiest of speculation and rumor. Such speculation and rumor from the "other side" would be shouted down as racism, sexism, grabbing at straws, desperation, and/or anti-Democrat conspiracy.

Oh, wait, I'm not amazed. Sorry to interrupt.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 1:23 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Docpops, maybe you should ask her doctor that question. I think he is the only one qualified to tell us if she was being an ignoramus or simply following doctors orders.
posted by konolia at 1:25 PM on August 31, 2008

Palin lied about opposition to "Bridge to Nowhere"

Anchorage Daily News:
"When John McCain introduced Gov. Sarah Palin as his running mate Friday, her reputation as a tough-minded budget-cutter was front and center.

'I told Congress, thanks but no thanks on that bridge to nowhere,' Palin told the cheering McCain crowd, referring to Ketchikan's Gravina Island bridge.

But Palin was for the Bridge to Nowhere before she was against it.

The Alaska governor campaigned in 2006 on a build-the-bridge platform, telling Ketchikan residents she felt their pain when politicians called them 'nowhere.' They're still feeling pain today in Ketchikan, over Palin's subsequent decision to use the bridge funds for other projects -- and over the timing of her announcement, which they say came in a pre-dawn press release that seemed aimed at national news deadlines."

posted by ericb at 1:33 PM on August 31, 2008

For those of you who have never had a baby, you can be in early labor with mild contractions that are NOT painful for a long time. Even a day or two. Even when a child is not one's first. Also, when one has had more than one baby you do contract on and off for hours even weeks before you give birth. She might have simply assumed she had leakage plus Braxton Hicks contractions.
posted by konolia at 1:33 PM on August 31, 2008

McCain and Graham Repeat False Claim That Palin Opposed The ‘Bridge To Nowhere’.
posted by ericb at 1:34 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

OK, so from the Anchorage newspaper story linked from the blog post in ericb's quote off Daily Kos:

Palin kept in close contact with Baldwin-Johnson. The contractions slowed to one or two an hour, "which is not active labor," the doctor said.

"I am not a glutton for pain and punishment. I would have never wanted to travel had I been fully engaged in labor," Palin said. After four kids, the governor said, she knew what labor felt like, and she wasn't in labor.They landed in Anchorage around 10:30 p.m. Thursday and an hour later were at the Mat-Su Regional Medical Center in Wasilla.

Baldwin-Johnson said she had to induce labor, and the baby didn't come until 6:30 a.m. Friday.

So Palin made a judgement call in consultation with her doctor, confident that she was the best placed to determine what was going on with her body, and if the above is accurate, turned out to be right. She had a slow leak. She wasn't in labour, and in fact had to have an induction that resulted in a live birth 22 hours later - well within the 24 hour advisory window for antibiotics if labour doesn't kick off.

Again, I'm hot on this issue because I hate the fact that we live in a climate where pregnant women are treated as children unable to make intelligent decisions about what's best for themselves and their bodies. (Unlike konolia, I am staunchly pro-choice, of course.) Palin's judgement here seems sound, particularly given that she'd had experience of doing this three times before. Her birth choices should not be used as a yardstick for her validity as a VP. Which sucks, as it happens.
posted by DarlingBri at 1:39 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think he is the only one qualified to tell us if she was being an ignoramus or simply following doctors orders.
posted by konolia at 1:25 PM on August 31 [+] [!]

No, I suspect he would defend his decision. That doesn't make it any less open to questioning. If you Google this topic there are plenty of OB's and nurses weighing in saying the exact same thing I am - it's not inflammatory at all. She already stated her membranes were ruptured, so what I'm expected to believe is that the physician for the Governor of Alaska said, hey, don't even bother getting a check at a local hospital to see if you're showing evidence of early labor, don't get a a shot of ancef for infection prophylaxis, or a monitor strip to see if you might have cord issues or decels, just get on the plane. Because shit, we're Alaskans, we don't go for that hifalutin NewYorker over-medicated OB bullshit.

Seriously?
posted by docpops at 1:39 PM on August 31, 2008 [15 favorites]

And I think the rumor that this woman hid her daughter's pregnancy by pretending to be pregnant is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my entire life.

Oh, I don't know. I think stupider things about Palin have been said, in this thread in particular. Although I agree it should be neither here nor there. I personally don't care if she did cover up her daugher's pregnancy, birthed the child herself, or found it floating down the river in a basket. Nor do I want to see the possibility discussed with any amount of seriousness.

What bugs me is twofold: Democrats perceiving this desperate gamble as some sort of masterful play that we're just not fully understanding, and Republicans trying to tout this person as being fit for leadership or having anything in common with "Joe Sixpack".

"She'll catch up"? What the hell kind of response is that? This is what you say when you're seriously undermanned at work, and you need to hire someone, anyone at all, and pick the closest available warm body. I don't want the VP to "catch up" and learn about the world 'n' stuff, highlighting her Cliff Note's version of foreign policy into the wee hours of the night. I want a VP who already has their act together. And a person who's spent her political carreer in command of a few thousand people in a state dripping with oil revenues doesn't strike me as necessarily skilled. You would actually have to go out of your way to mess that up - all you really need to do is sit tight and sign checks.

And I'm getting really tired of Republicans claiming a copyright on what "the average American" is all about. And not just because it's cheap true Scotsman horseshit. Have you people been in a coma for the past four years? Do you know how hugely unpopular the president is? The results of the 2006 Congressional elections?

My Lord, the hoops that are jumped through to dress this candidate pick up as anything other than McCain leaning over a craps table, sleeves rolled up, shirt drenched in pit sweat, his last 20 bucks in his hand and throwing the dice is ceaselessly entertaining.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:46 PM on August 31, 2008 [26 favorites]

And I think the rumor that this woman hid her daughter's pregnancy by pretending to be pregnant is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard in my entire life.

But konolia, it isn't stupid at all, and the available evidence strongly supports it. It's just that in the world of conservatives, human frailty as it pertains to sexuality or is in direct conflict with the teachings of Jesus, has to be suppressed. It's the difference between Barney Frank and Larry Craig. As much as a part of me delights in the insane hypocrisy of these idiots being exposed, it's mostly just fucking sad. Someday in a perfect world all those Gideon bibles in no-tell motels all over the world will be rendered and reprinted with one thing only in the front - "Let your freak flag fly"
posted by docpops at 1:56 PM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

John McCain rolls the dice.
posted by birdherder at 1:58 PM on August 31, 2008

And if this election and the last eight years didn't literally have a direct impact on the possible future of the planet, I'd tend to agree with the comments that this is a stupid place to be dwelling. Alas, it is not so. Thus there is no detail too sordid, personal, or insipid that I wouldn't be happy to elevate to statuary proportions if it keeps the right-wing out of office. Feel free to disagree.
posted by docpops at 2:00 PM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

This is what you say when you're seriously undermanned at work, and you need to hire someone, anyone at all, and pick the closest available warm body.

We've had eight years of the cronyist Bush administration putting friends in leadership roles, people who had to "catch up", because they were too incompetent to do the heckuva job they were tasked to do.

This country doesn't really have much more time to give to inexperienced hacks like Palin who need to "catch up" to do the job.

So long as the Obama campaign focuses on Palin's complete lack of experience, and puts it in the context of what happened with Michael "Heckuva Job Brownie" Brown of FEMA during Hurricane Katrina — which could be done as early as tomorrow, given Hurricane Gustav — I'm hopeful we don't need to worry about the misogynist, fundamentalist Republican Party getting another four years to pillage the country, Konolia and friends notwithstanding.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:04 PM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

re: bookhouse's inquiry about McCain's adopted daughter's absence/presence in family photos:

Here's at least one.
posted by skyper at 2:08 PM on August 31, 2008

No, I suspect he would defend his decision. That doesn't make it any less open to questioning.

docpops, for one thing the doctor's a she. :) For another, I respect your experience, but doctors (not to mention midwives) disagree all the time about stuff like this and seem to get especially het up about labor decisions. Calling the woman a "selfish and ignorant fool" for, along with her doctor, making a different decision than you would have advised seems to be going a bit far.

ericb, the Kos blog post that keeps getting tossed around is just uninformed. All the alarmist talk about needing special care for a baby born "a month premature," for one thing. 37 weeks is considered full-term, and Palin was at 36.

I was going to highlight the same quote DarlingBri did, above. Some might see her decision as foolhardy, others as determined or courageous. Blah blah blah. She's a very fit woman who made an unusual choice based on factors that she was in the best position to judge. Turned out she was right (the baby had to be induced after all); extrapolating some kind of job-disqualifying character flaw from all this just comes off as silly.
posted by torticat at 2:15 PM on August 31, 2008

you are really uninformed if you think a mom has to see a doc in a hospital in order to have a baby. having a baby not not be a walk in the park, but it's as natural as taking a piss. it can even happen on a plane! and mothers who have had a few sorta know their own bodies and how things will generally go.
and I thought the Obama is a Muslim folks were deranged and desperate... dear God thisis depressing.
posted by dawson at 2:21 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

may not,and so forth.
posted by dawson at 2:23 PM on August 31, 2008

This thread has gotten stupid.
posted by dirigibleman at 2:29 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

having a baby ... (is) as natural as taking a piss.

Funny, I can't think of a single person or newborn baby that has either died or been grievously injured as a result of complications or infection following an otherwise successful session of vigorous urination.

I mean, unless someone out there has drowned or something ...
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 2:29 PM on August 31, 2008

But konolia, it isn't stupid at all, and the available evidence strongly supports it. It's just that in the world of conservatives, human frailty as it pertains to sexuality or is in direct conflict with the teachings of Jesus, has to be suppressed

Docpops, maybe you didn't remember that my grandchild was conceived before my daughter's marriage when she was 19. I know all about human frailty.

We might not believe in premarital sex, but we don't treat any resulting children as a punishment or as "omg the worst thing that ever happened to me!" My grandchild is probably the best thing that ever happened to my daughter.

Do you know what the Bible considers judgement in the area of sexuality? Barrenness.

The fact that this ridiculous story re the parentage of this baby has any legs at all makes me wonder if I just need to go and buy stock in tinfoil.
posted by konolia at 2:33 PM on August 31, 2008

Why does the hospital where Trig was born not have him listed on the birth calendar? Link
(look fast, may disappear soon)

(I know: Hurf durf, tinfoil hat, but is that not sort of weird?)

No, I would expect that, since mom is the Governor of the state. I would expect that a parent might have to give permission to have their child listed, or barring that, that a seated governor might ask for privacy in general, being a public figure?
posted by konolia at 2:35 PM on August 31, 2008

extrapolating some kind of job-disqualifying character flaw from all this just comes off as silly.

Coming off eight years of recklessness from the current administration, it doesn't seem far fetched that people would question seeming recklessness in a candidate for national office, even if it is just the vice-president.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:43 PM on August 31, 2008

You heard it here first!
Joe Biden might have had a pet goat as a child that was possibly malnourished!
Unfit,unfit!
posted by dawson at 2:45 PM on August 31, 2008

Why does the hospital where Trig was born not have him listed on the birth calendar?

Because those entries are linked to photos? And the baby has Downs? And making that particular newborn photo available when you're the Governor means it will appear on the front page of the paper the next morning? And almost any parent's knee-jerk reaction would be to protect their hours-old child from that kind of gawping?
posted by DarlingBri at 2:46 PM on August 31, 2008

And almost any parent's knee-jerk reaction would be to protect their hours-old child from that kind of gawping?

That is really doubtful given that it's a normal, super adorable looking baby.

konolia: " I think the rumor that this woman hid her daughter's pregnancy by pretending to be pregnant is about the stupidest thing I have ever heard..."

docpops: "... it isn't stupid at all, and the available evidence strongly supports it"

***HEAD ASPLODES***

God, this thread has gotten very, very stupid.

I'm done here.
posted by dgaicun at 3:00 PM on August 31, 2008

DarlingBri, they put the baby on TV within hours of his birth.
posted by essexjan at 3:02 PM on August 31, 2008

...someone mentioned up thread that Down Syndrom is very rare in babies born to teen mothers, and it's much more common in women who have children later in life.
"80% of the cases of Down's Syndrome are in mother's under the age of 35."

ericb: I'm disappointed in you, I saw that stat in the dailykos diary but I didn't bother to refute it because it was so stupid. The chances of a baby being born with down syndrome are higher for older women, but younger women have far more babies. If a 44 year old woman and a teenager are both having regular unprotected sex and a baby is produced with downs Syndrome, then it's likely to have come from the 44 year old woman. And in this case we know Sarah Palin was having unprotected sex and had already had four children, we don't know if her daughter was at all.

And like Flunkie pointed out, it's not about a generic "under 35" and "over 35" it's about a 16 year old vs. a 44 year old. look at this chart. A 44 year old woman has a 1/41 probability of having a child with downs syndrome. A 32 year old has a 1/725 chance. And that's as low as the chart goes. According to this article the odds of a 25 year old having a child with Downs is less then 1/1,300, the data comes from.

So to review:

odds of Sara Palin having a child with downs syndrom at her age:
1/41
The odds of a 16 year old having a child with Down's Syndrome:
less then 1/1,300

Frankly, this "Teen daughter conspiracy" is as bullshit as the "Obama is a muslim" slurs, with the added bonus of being completely scientifically illiterate.

In fact, were I on a hiring committee, I would strongly advise against hiring a person who had done something such as what she is alleged to have done --lord_wolf

Ugh, you're kidding right? It's illegal to take pregnancy and reproductive choices into consideration when hiring!! My guess is you've never been anywhere near a hiring committee. If you did that, the woman could sue your company into the ground.

Man, all this speculation about her Uterus reminds of the scene from Anchorman where the guys in the office are talking about the new female anchor and they start talking about her periods might attract bears which could "put the whole station in danger!" It's really freaking ridiculous and embarrassing.

But konolia, it isn't stupid at all, and the available evidence strongly supports it. --docprops

Do you know what the Bible ....

The fact that this ridiculous story re the parentage of this baby has any legs at all makes me wonder if I just need to go and buy stock in tinfoil.

Hahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!
posted by cashman at 3:06 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Actually I see Obama as more global. Think about it...That's not a slam at him, that's actually a feature, and a strong point. But it doesn't help him relate to Joe Sixpack.

I happen to believe that Barack Obama would have no trouble at all relating to Joe Sixpack. It's more likely that Joe Sixpack isn't taking a lot of trouble to relate to him. He doesn't speak in soundbites, after all.
posted by brain cloud at 3:14 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

The fact that this ridiculous story re the parentage of this baby has any legs at all makes me wonder if I just need to go and buy stock in tinfoil.

Et tu, Christianity.
posted by Sparx at 3:15 PM on August 31, 2008

How embarrassing this thread has become.
posted by Sailormom at 3:18 PM on August 31, 2008

Do you know what the Bible considers judgement in the area of sexuality? Barrenness.

Wait, barren women are sinners who are being punished? Or is this a good judgment, "God's saving you for other things" kind of a deal?
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 3:19 PM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

There's another possibility: that Sarah Palin IS the mother, and took dramatic risks with the labor because she was hoping for a miscarriage, for God to make the choice that she couldn't, whether for ideological, moral or political reasons.

You are not the first to float the idea. Pretty distasteful speculation. A 36-week-old fetus isn't, you know, some little clot you can pass in the airplane toilet. But I guess in this scenario she'd braced herself for the horrific reality of giving birth on a plane followed by the baby's death. Because deep in in her heart that was the outcome she wanted.

Leaving that alone, a good segment of the discussion here has been about the (irresponsible! reprehensible! immoral!) choice Palin made in taking that flight. Suppose through some series of events the baby had died because of that decision--you know, Palin's dream of God's taking the child come true. She wouldn't exactly have come up smelling of roses, right? The positive outcome of her controversial decision pretty much depended on the child coming out okay.

Sigh. Palin's baby is really her daughter's. Palin wanted the baby to die and tried to help God pull the trigger. Such stupid, insulting, irrelevant speculation.
posted by torticat at 3:23 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

DarlingBri, did you click the link from my "Trig was born" phrase? It's an article from an April 18 Anchorage paper -- and it prominently features a photo of the newborn. That makes it part of the public record...yet, months later, the hospital's website just happens not to list what should be a particularly famous birth on its birth calendar?

Also, I, along with some others who are looking, are having trouble determining whether Mat-Su regional has a NICU. That's another weight on the something's going on side of the "what's up with this?" scale.

My guess is you've never been anywhere near a hiring committee.

I haven't; and not only that, it's very probably the case that I'm a complete idiot. However, is it also the case that if, for example, I know a woman who was a prospective employee drank heavily during her pregnancy, I'm not allowed to take that into consideration in my hiring decisions? I'm really curious about that.

I'm trying not to come down on the side of holding pregnant women as sacred chalices who must behave in a rigidly scrpited manner, as DarlinBri and others have pointed out there's a danger of doing in this discussion. But on the other hand, the only reason I feel even the least bit able to view flying while leaking amnio fluid @ 36 weeks dimly is because my wife and other women who have given birth have told me that it's an incredibly poor call to do something like that.
posted by lord_wolf at 3:23 PM on August 31, 2008

Quite a few women in the Bible were barren until giving birth to children uniquely gifted by God or with special purpose- Hannah (mom to Samuel), Samson's mom, and Elizabeth (mom of John the Baptist.) There are plenty more.

If you do read in some sections of the OT it mentions barrenness as a result of curses as a result of sin, but by no means was all barrenness a sign of God's disfavor-although in general people treated barren women that way. Fecundity, otoh was always, ALWAYS seen as a blessing.
posted by konolia at 3:27 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

delmoi, I agree with your larger points, but as to this:
And in this case we know Sarah Palin was having unprotected sex

what the FUCK? You have a cite?
posted by torticat at 3:30 PM on August 31, 2008

No, all the real scientific evidence, taken over decades, shows that teenagers hardly ever give birth to kids with Downs Syndrome, and that women in their 40s often do. Anyone who could believe this rumor would be a complete scientific illiterate, and that includes you, if you seriously believe it's possible.

Right - so in Delmoi's version of science, it is impossible (or impossible to seriously believe ) that a younger woman could have a child with Downs

Just. So. Wrong.

There's a one in 1125 chance for a woman at 25 to to have an afflicted child. As stats go about 80 percent of babies with Down syndrome are born to women who are under age 35, as younger women have far more babies.

How do you spell syentifikkally illitterat again?
posted by Sparx at 3:33 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Maureen Dowd | NYTimes:

"Enthusiastic Republicans don’t see the choice of Palin as affirmative action, despite her thin résumé and gaping absence of foreign policy knowledge, because they expect Republicans to put an underqualified 'babe,' as Rush Limbaugh calls her, on the ticket. They have a tradition of nominating fun, bantamweight cheerleaders from the West, like the previous Miss Congeniality types Dan Quayle and W., and then letting them learn on the job. So they crash into the globe a few times while they’re learning to drive, what’s the big deal?

....The legacy of Geraldine Ferraro was supposed to be that no one would ever go on a blind date with history again. But that crazy maverick and gambler McCain does it, and conservatives and evangelicals rally around him in admiration of his refreshingly cynical choice of Sarah, an evangelical Protestant and anti-abortion crusader who became a hero when she decided to have her baby, who has Down syndrome, and when she urged schools to debate creationism as well as that stuffy old evolution thing.

Palinistas, as they are called, love Sarah’s spunky, relentlessly quirky 'Northern Exposure' story from being a Miss Alaska runner-up, and winning Miss Congeniality, to being mayor and hockey mom in Wasilla, a rural Alaskan town of 6,715, to being governor for two years to being the first woman ever to run on a national Republican ticket. (Why do men only pick women as running mates when they need a Hail Mary pass? It’s a little insulting.)"

posted by ericb at 3:36 PM on August 31, 2008

Do you know what the Bible considers judgement in the area of sexuality? Barrenness.

WTF, konolia, that's just hateful.

Hey, but now I know why I have to have fertility treatments! It's my long and storied history as a gin slut.
posted by sugarfish at 3:38 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Because those entries are linked to photos?

Interestingly enough, he's not listed by name either. This doesn't mean the rumor is true, of course, but it's another little hole that gives people room speculate.

It's kinda like watching the 9/11 nutjobs spin theories.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:39 PM on August 31, 2008

Right - so in Delmoi's version of science, it is impossible (or impossible to seriously believe ) that a younger woman could have a child with Downs

It's not impossible, I never said it was impossible I said it was extremely unlikely, which it is, since it is extremely unlikely, and I've got no problem saying it's impossible that scientifically literate person could seriously believe it.
And in this case we know Sarah Palin was having unprotected sex
what the FUCK? You have a cite?

Well, we know she's married and pops out kids every couple of years. How else would that have happened?
posted by delmoi at 3:41 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

"'She's not qualified, she doesn't have the judgment, to be next in line to the president of the United States,'' Larry Persily, who until June worked in the governor's Washington office as a congressional liaison, said in a phone interview yesterday.

A supporter of Palin's campaign for governor, Jim Whitaker, the Republican mayor of Fairbanks, also questioned Palin's readiness to serve as vice president in a phone interview yesterday.

Whitaker said that while he is 'still an avid supporter'' of Palin as governor, he will continue to back Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama." ^*

posted by ericb at 3:42 PM on August 31, 2008

THIS THREAD CONTINUES TO BE STUPID.

Here, let me try jiggling the handle...
posted by dirigibleman at 3:43 PM on August 31, 2008 [5 favorites]

is there some kind of virus in this page that turns people into barking moonbats?
posted by pyramid termite at 3:45 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Konolia: Hate to tell you guys this but putting her on the ticket has electrified the Republicans and church folk here. I mean, they are stoked.
I am interested in how they react to the fact that she is a woman, with five children, and such a busy job. In my experience, fundamentalist christian mothers of large families are often stay at home moms and have traditional views of families. So, I was surprised by this quote: "To any critics who say a woman can't think and work and carry a baby at the same time, I'd just like to escort that Neanderthal back to the cave," Palin said.

Do you think Palin could be empowering to christian women? Do people talk about these issues at your church?
posted by davar at 3:49 PM on August 31, 2008

Barack Obama (during tonight's 60 Minutes interview):

"Well, I don't know Governor Palin, I have not met her before. I had a brief conversation with her after she was selected to congratulate her and wish her luck - but, not too much luck! - on the campaign trail. And she seems to have a compelling life story. Obviously, she's a fine mother and a up-and-coming public servant. So, it's too early for me to gauge what kind of running mate she'll be. My sense is that she subscribes to John McCain's agenda. And ultimately, this [election] is going to be about where I want to take the country and where Joe Biden wants to take the country, and where John McCain and his running mate want to take the country."

posted by ericb at 3:50 PM on August 31, 2008

Well, here we go: Sully drops the rumor bomb.

Despite my love of salacious rumors of all stripes, this seems a bad move.
posted by Bookhouse at 3:53 PM on August 31, 2008

No Experience Necessary: How Sarah Palin made the GOP change its mind about presidential qualifications.
posted by homunculus at 3:56 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

lord_wolf, the photo show there is about a million times better than anything that ever came out of those horrendous "freshly baked baby" hospital nursery photos. It also appears to have been pulled from TV footage, which is about where you'd pitch a birth if you were a sitting Governor.

I have no idea what the real story is but I'm just sayin'... she is not your average Alaskan mom and this is not your average baby and I'm not surprised this birth was handled a little differently.

toricat, there have been many mentions of Palin not supporting birth control even for married couples. I can't find an actual cite or source for that but it's been much-repeated. According to Time however she does support birth control - their basis for this is that she's a member of FFL. Except FFL doesn't have a position on contraception, only on abortion, so that doesn't mean anything either.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:57 PM on August 31, 2008

konolia, leaving all the rest of this mess aside for a moment, I have two questions for you -- and I am asking in the genuine spirit of "I'm currious" since you're a demographic I don't have much contact with in my real life:

1) If George Bush were eligible to run for a third term, would you vote for him?

2) If Gov Palin's resume and life story were the same, but she was vocally pro-choice (in the same way that, say, Senators Snowe and Collins are -- they don't run on that point, but if asked they'll tell you point blank what their stance is), would you still feel she was a good candidate for VP?
posted by anastasiav at 3:59 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

msalt: There's another possibility: that Sarah Palin IS the mother, and took dramatic risks with the labor because she was hoping for a miscarriage
Like torticat I think this response is really, really awful and I am shocked that it comes up more than once in this discussion, and that the first time it came up six people favorited it. I wonder if the pro-choice insistence that "it is not a baby if it is in the womb, it is just tissue, just a potential baby, etc." makes some people forget that at 36 weeks a baby is about ready to be born? You cannot get a miscarriage anymore at that point. (Actually if your are more than 20 weeks pregnant and your baby dies it is called a stillbirth, not a miscarriage). Of course the baby can die during labor, but we are talking about a baby at that point. Are you really saying that Sarah Palin tried to kill her baby?
posted by davar at 4:17 PM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

Well, we know she's married and pops out kids every couple of years. How else would that have happened?

Contraceptive failure? They had three children in four years and then two more over the next 14. They don't believe abortion is an option. Connect the dots.

Not that we should be engaging in this discussion. :) I just thought that was an astounding statement you made, so matter-of-factly.
posted by torticat at 4:18 PM on August 31, 2008

1) If George Bush were eligible to run for a third term, would you vote for him?

2) If Gov Palin's resume and life story were the same, but she was vocally pro-choice (in the same way that, say, Senators Snowe and Collins are -- they don't run on that point, but if asked they'll tell you point blank what their stance is), would you still feel she was a good candidate for VP?

1) I still like George.
My son just graduated from USAFA, and Bush was there, saluting and shaking hands with every grad. My son said to him, "Sir, your approval rating is high with me!" You can see on the DVD (yes, I have one) where Bush pulls him back and says something to him. What he said was this:
"Approval ratings are not important. What is important is doing the right thing."
I want to vote for people who are interested in doing the right thing, not the popular thing.

If Obama gets elected, it will be interesting to me what he says and does as soon as he gets all the security briefings that a seated President gets.

2) Abortion is my litmus test. If you don't pass that with me, I won't bother to look at anything else, period.
posted by konolia at 4:28 PM on August 31, 2008

Stop it stop it stop it stop it stop it with the baby rumors! There are SO many other issues we can pursue without resorting to this kind of base speculation. It's shooting fish in a barrel, with bazooka - no with TWO bazookas. There is a glut of cons for every pro. This tabloid crap is like school on Sunday: no class.

Thus there is no detail too sordid, personal, or insipid that I wouldn't be happy to elevate to statuary proportions if it keeps the right-wing out of office.

So, "You are prepared to ... do anything which is likely to cause demoralization of the party?"

I'm glad you're motivated, but this kind of thing will always
come back to bite you.

The high road is a rare course. Obama is taking it, but you are judged by the company you keep. The supporters are a reflection on the candidate, like it or not. Can we criticize the other side spreading baseless rumors about Obama, and then stoop to this level ourselves?
posted by damo at 4:29 PM on August 31, 2008 [5 favorites]

If Obama gets elected, it will be interesting to me what he says and does as soon as he gets all the security briefings that a seated President gets.

"The hell? These things have like three inches of dust on them! Wasn't anybody even pretending to read them?"
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 4:32 PM on August 31, 2008 [22 favorites]

For those that asked-yes, my church supports woman caring for their own children at home but has also supported working moms, and has even employed them-yes, even some moms with small children. I know my own preference is for moms to be with their children, but even so, for a time I worked outside the home when mine were small (third shift, so I didn't use daycare.)

It is my understanding that Palin's husband is taking care of the kids...also, please remember that all but one of her children are school age.

There is a small subset of Christianity that right now is having a hissy fit that a woman has been nominated, but they just need to get over it.
posted by konolia at 4:35 PM on August 31, 2008

I want to vote for people who are interested in doing the right thing, not the popular thing.

So, how does that jibe with McCain selecting someone purely for the votes she is able to grab for him, rather than her political experience on the national stage?
posted by brain cloud at 4:38 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Republicans on the Sunday talk shows:

"[Former Republican Sen. Fred] Thompson [of Tennessee]: 'She's a mother of five children. ... And she has more experience than Barack Obama.'

Sen. Lindsay Graham of South Carolina: 'Governor Palin took on Ted Stevens. If she can take him on, she can take on the Russians.' Stevens, a Republican senator, is facing corruption charges and running for re-election.

Minnesota Gov. Tim Pawlenty: 'Palin is commander-in-chief of the Alaskan National Guard.' The state's Guard has about 4,000 members."

posted by ericb at 4:39 PM on August 31, 2008

Jesus. This thread has been abducted by the aforementioned American Morons or their Republican sock puppet aparachiks.

Did Palin give birth to her sisters...er... daughters Down Syndrome baby or a was it a two headed goat?

WHO GIVES A SHIT.

Thank you MetaFilter for joining the ranks of the Average American Dipshit and perpetuating yet another bandwidth soaking derail.

There is only one relevant topic in regards to Sarah Polin and that is she in the much less qualified and infinitely more fundamentalist female equivalent of Dan Quayle. The republicans picked her because she is young, cute in a suit, and has a vagina. She is the Trophy Wife VP. And she will do what she is told. And she would be a heartbeat away from dropping bombs on the childen of the world. And trust me. The republicans WILL be dropping bombs on innocent children if McCain gets elected.

Women should be insulted at this VP choice.
posted by tkchrist at 4:39 PM on August 31, 2008 [6 favorites]

There is a small subset of Christianity that right now is having a hissy fit that a woman has been nominated, but they just need to get over it.

Why? 1 Timothy 2 seems pretty clear - women shouldn't be in positions of authority. They should be silent.

To be clear, I do not agree. But it's not clear to me why a Christian wouldn't.
posted by Flunkie at 4:41 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

So, how does that jibe with McCain selecting someone purely for the votes she is able to grab for him, rather than her political experience on the national stage?

Palin is the ONLY reason I am not holding my nose to vote this November.
posted by konolia at 4:43 PM on August 31, 2008

2) Abortion is my litmus test.

You disgust me. How hypocritical can you be.

George Bush aborted a whole bunch of babies in Iraq. Late term, too.
posted by tkchrist at 4:46 PM on August 31, 2008 [10 favorites]

Well, here we go: Sully drops the rumor bomb.

Ugh.

Contraceptive failure? They had three children in four years and then two more over the next 14. They don't believe abortion is an option. Connect the dots.

Not that we should be engaging in this discussion. :) I just thought that was an astounding statement you made, so matter-of-factly.

I suppose that's a good point. :P
posted by delmoi at 4:47 PM on August 31, 2008

tkchrist, I don't like konolia's views any more than you do but that's out of line. You can make a point without a personal attack. That sort of thing makes you look like a rabid rotty and konolia, one of MeFis few vocal conservatives, look like a set upon victim of gang violence.
posted by DarlingBri at 4:55 PM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

Here's a video of Palin giving a speech in March, which would be about 7 months into the pregnancy. Even though the shot only gets a partial side profile, and that she's wearing all black, she definitely seems quite a bit wider than she does today.
posted by gyc at 5:03 PM on August 31, 2008

It's just that in the world of conservatives, human frailty as it pertains to sexuality or is in direct conflict with the teachings of Jesus, has to be suppressed

Actually, conservatives would do well to adopt Jesus' forgiveness, compassion, and kindness instead of cherry-picking the harshest Old Testament passages and use them to justify hypocrisy, hatred, and bigotry like the Pharisees. They should dust off "judge not, that you be not judged." "And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by men."

I want to vote for people who are interested in doing the right thing, not the popular thing.

Was lying us into invading Iraq the right thing? Was letting people drown in the streets of New Orleans?

Governor Palin took on Ted Stevens. If she can take him on, she can take on the Russians

Palin Ad Starring Ted Stevens Already Scrubbed From Palin's Campaign Website "Luckily, the ad featuring Stevens and Palin is still available for your viewing pleasure!"

Scandal-Plagued Ted Stevens Endorses Palin For VP
posted by kirkaracha at 5:04 PM on August 31, 2008 [6 favorites]

Forget the babby.

Sarah Palin thinks the Founding Fathers wrote the Pledge of Allegiance:

[Question on a candidate questionnaire by the Eagle Forum Alaska:] you offended by the phrase “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance? Why or why not?

Sarah Palin: Not on your life. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me and I’ll fight in defense of our Pledge of Allegiance

Forget the babby. This woman's a blockhead. Whatever you want to say about Hillary, Palin is no Hillary replacement.
posted by orthogonality at 5:04 PM on August 31, 2008 [15 favorites]

Palin is the ONLY reason I am not holding my nose to vote this November.

I can understand feeling strongly about an issue - passionately, even - but I can't understand a single issue being the sole determinant of how I vote in an election. I look at the whole package. I don't have to agree with a candidate 100%, but I like to be able to agree 75 or 80%.

That said, anybody who voted for Bush purely because of where he stood on the issue of abortion, need only check the yellow pages to see that abortion is still as legal as walking down the street. So what do these voters say now, when their mission wasn't accomplished?
posted by brain cloud at 5:06 PM on August 31, 2008

For the love of all things sacred in this world, I am begging you folks: please, please, please drop this horseshit conversation about Palin's pregnancy and what she may or may not have done. It has fuck-all to do with her ability (or gross lack thereof) to serve as VP of the US, it goes against every fucking tenet of the pro-choice movement, and it is just unseemly and unbefitting this site as imaginable.

Shred her for her lack of experience, for her obnoxiously aw-shucks pollyanna approach to one of the most important jobs in the world, have at it -- there are a million and one things she should be questioned for. Her reproductive and family choices aren't fare game, so fucking lay off already.
posted by shiu mai baby at 5:06 PM on August 31, 2008 [11 favorites]

Konolia, you mentioned that other members of your congregation are newly energized on the Palin pick. Can I assume these are single issue voters? If so, was John McCain insufficiently pro-life? And what about adding Palin to the ticket changes that?

Because I suspect the evangelicals have been planning on having their hissy fit over immigration and staying home. Now that it looks like they're gonna get brutalized, they'll take any excuse to mobilize.
posted by butterstick at 5:08 PM on August 31, 2008

Not just inexperienced, but staggeringly ignorant about our nations's history.

11. Are you offended by the phrase “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance? Why or why not?
SP: Not on your life. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me and I’ll fight in defense of our Pledge of Allegiance.

The rest of the questions reveal her as being unbelievably backwards, as well.
posted by empath at 5:08 PM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

* fair game, dangit, fair game. I should know better than to type while this annoyed.
posted by shiu mai baby at 5:08 PM on August 31, 2008

2) Abortion is my litmus test.

Conservative Christians collectively tried to eliminate welfare as the only real incentive to discourage abortions, and it was a very high priority for them, so they don't really believe in their cause. What it means to them personally is a way to persuade others that they care about someone else in their natural state of loathing towards all others (and also self-loathing). It really works in getting people to take them seriously.
posted by Brian B. at 5:08 PM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

Flunkie, go google Deborah in the Bible.

Deborah was Old Testament. Timothy is New. A new and everlasting covenant.
posted by Flunkie at 5:10 PM on August 31, 2008

And you know what I would tell the most fundamentalist of my bretheren? If you want to complain about this woman in office, then look at yourselves in the mirror as you shirked your civic duty to be involved just like any other citizen in this great nation of ours...tons of you guys have decried the dirtiness of politics and washed your hands of it, declaring it was an unholy business.

Amen! Bring back the Catonsville Nine! I know, they're Catholics, but they took the Bible pretty literally when it comes to the sanctity of human life.

"Our apologies, good friends, for the fracture of good order, the burning of paper instead of children."
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:11 PM on August 31, 2008

The US under George Bush has aborted over 100,000 Iraqi's.

O RLY? I thought it was the extremists who came over the Iraqi border from Syria and Jordan who are murdering innocents over there. AT least that is what the soldier from church who comes to my house and eats at my table says. The soldier who has actually BEEN over there to see for himself.
posted by konolia at 5:12 PM on August 31, 2008

That said, anybody who voted for Bush purely because of where he stood on the issue of abortion, need only check the yellow pages to see that abortion is still as legal as walking down the street. So what do these voters say now, when their mission wasn't accomplished?

Excellent point. 8 years of Bush and no change. Abortion is still legal. Maybe you can make excuses about circumstances and intentions, but there it is.

The abortion issue is a carrot dangling from a stick.
posted by damo at 5:12 PM on August 31, 2008

Local Blogger's take:

Today, while I watched her hop out of the “Straight Talk Express” bus, and give the second reading of her acceptance speech, one of my fellow viewers said, “You know, I don’t remember her opposing the Bridge.” And it hit me. I don’t remember that either. A quick double-check with the third member of our watch party confirmed our confusion. We all live here. We all watch the news, read the paper, and pay attention to the local political circus, but none of us connected Sarah with her claims of rebuffing the controversial earmark.

...

Today, Palin called in to a local radio program, and bubbled, “This is so amazeen!” Then she said that her children and she had only learned of her selection the day before the announcement was made. I think of the extensive vetting process that the Democratic VP candidates went through. Evan Bayh said that he was grilled extensively about skeletons in the closet, and even whether any of his kids had a Facebook or MySpace page that might come back to haunt him.

...

But many Alaskans are just giddy over the whole thing. The local sportscaster, after reporting on the high school basketball scores, said, “You know Sarah Palin used to be a sportscaster….and she’s the Vice Presidential candidate. So, I think I wanna do that…yeah.” (eyeroll) And one woman who was interviewed said she was totally in support of Palin because, “This is really going to put Alaska on the map. Now people are going to find out what we’re really all about.”

Because this is what we’re looking for in the next Vice President. We want Alaska to be on the map. And not in that little box in the South Pacific you guys always stuff us in. This election is about Alaska’s road to legitimacy! Sar-ah Sar-ah Sar-ah! (banging head on desk and going to bed)

posted by delmoi at 5:12 PM on August 31, 2008 [4 favorites]

Fecundity, otoh was always, ALWAYS seen as a blessing.

and only now, thousands of years later, reading the comments of the common mefite, does one come to understand how that may have been an overly optimistic interpretation.
posted by quonsar at 5:15 PM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

I can understand feeling strongly about an issue - passionately, even - but I can't understand a single issue being the sole determinant of how I vote in an election.

Seriously? What if one party was in favor of genocide? That's how anti-choice activists look at it. So they are right to be one-issue voters*. If one party was in favor of reinstating slavery.

actually, that's a mild way of putting it. I've never understood why people call people who bomb abortion clinics "hypocrites." Dude, if there was a baby-murdering farm down the street, it would be immoral not to bomb it. But that's a huge derail on an already monster thread.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:15 PM on August 31, 2008

konolia, tkchrist, please continue this argument in metatalk or over email, it's turning into a circle-jerk in an already contentious thread. thank you.
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 5:21 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

I thought it was the extremists who came over the Iraqi border from Syria and Jordan who are murdering innocents over there. AT least that is what the soldier from church who comes to my house and eats at my table says. The soldier who has actually BEEN over there to see for himself.

Think again.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:22 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

God is the one that sets up leaders.
Mugabe?
Kim Jung Il?
al-Bashir?

(I'm trying desperately not to Godwin this thread)
posted by damo at 5:23 PM on August 31, 2008

I'll stop pre-emptively now. Sorry for the de-rail.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:24 PM on August 31, 2008

O RLY? I thought it was the extremists who came over the Iraqi border from Syria and Jordan who are murdering innocents over there. AT least that is what the soldier from church who comes to my house and eats at my table says. The soldier who has actually BEEN over there to see for himself.

You really believe that? I mean, how would he be able to tell where the people shooting at him and dropping IEDs actually came from? And furthermore, it's contrary to the reports of other people, who had also been there.

(It's kind of a derail, but at this point the thread is 1,300 comments long, and it's been all over the map. I think we need to figure out a way to work fat people into it. Palin is very athletic, could that be a turnoff for fat people? There was an article a while back where a reporter speculated that Obama was too fit to relate to the 'average American')
posted by delmoi at 5:24 PM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

and I've got no problem saying it's impossible that scientifically literate person could seriously believe it.

There's a one in 1500 chance for a woman at 20 to to have an afflicted child.

Alaskan 15-19 year olds: 50,094

Female population of Alaska: 48.3% = 24195 15-19 year old girls (this is obviously approx as it is not age sorted)

Teen Pregnancy Rates per 1,000 Girls Aged 15-19, 2000ad: 73

73x24.195=1766 pregant girls

1766/1500 =1.177 = number of children born with Down's in that age group in a year

So there's (approx) more than one child born with Down's in Alaska every year. At what point does the chance of less than 1 in 1500 become scientifically impossible to believe of a given family?
posted by Sparx at 5:29 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

konolia, thanks for your reply. Again, like some here I'm not looking to mock but just to understand.

Palin says here that she opposes "explicit" (and I'm not sure what that means) sex-ed programs in schools. Do you agree with her? Do you (and I am sort of asking for you to speak for the members of your church here, sorry) feel like not teaching kids about what sex is, how it works, and how you avoid getting pregnant -- even if presented along side an program to strongly encourage abstinence -- is the right way to go to reduce the number of abortions in the US? (Because I'm pretty sure you'll agree with me that making abortion illegal doesn't mean that people will stop having them, and I think your ultimate goal (as is mine, although I'm pro-choice) is to stop people from having abortions.

Palin is also on record as saying that if her daughter were raped and became pregnant as a result of that rape, she would -- I think the wording she used was "not allow" although I can't find the cite right now -- not support her daughter ending the pregnancy? Do you agree or disagree? (Also -- incest? life of the mother?)

Final question: (and if I'm being a pest feel free to Mefi mail me and tell me to knock it off, I understand that I'm sort of asking you to be exposed to some assholes here) Are you for or against the death penalty? If you're for it, how to you reconcile the two views?
posted by anastasiav at 5:29 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

1 Timothy 2 seems pretty clear - women shouldn't be in positions of authority. They should be silent.

...said paul, writing to a 1st century church in a pastoral letter, so called because they deal with the qualifications and duties of pastors. nice try, but no cigar. if you are going to quote the bible it would serve you well to equip yourself with even a TINY modicum of knowing WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
posted by quonsar at 5:29 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Andrew Sullivan is on the fake pregnancy story now. It's got legs. She's going to have to answer questions on it or drop out, I think.
posted by empath at 5:30 PM on August 31, 2008

Andrew Sullivan is on the fake pregnancy story now. It's got legs. She's going to have to answer questions on it or drop out, I think.

God I hope not. Of course the MSM is utterly depraved and would love to harp on this, but on the other hand they are also somewhat deferential to people in power. I'd much rather see them cover the Troopergate issues.
posted by delmoi at 5:38 PM on August 31, 2008

Excellent point. 8 years of Bush and no change. Abortion is still legal.

I'm sorry, have you been paying attention for the last 8 years? No change?

Abortion rights are under unprecedented attack in the US. 87% of US counties do not have an abortion provider – 97% in non-metropolitan areas, and 1 in 4 women has to travel 50 miles or more to obtain an abortion. If you're under 18, this travel can mean crossing four state lines, often illegally, due to the relatively recent prevalence of parental consent laws.

Bush and his right wing buddies have been alarmingly successful in the bid against abortion. It doesn't matter if it's legal if there's nobody to provide it and nobody can access it anyway.

For some of us, this election is all about abortion rights. This issue has never been more critical. The next president will nominate at least one Supreme Court justice, and the margin on Wade has never been narrower.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:40 PM on August 31, 2008 [10 favorites]

You know I had this room mate once who was a Tolkien Scholar. I guess he and a couple other guys were the shit as far as Hobbits and Elves were concerned. Occasionally I would wake up at 3am to heated screaming argument from the living room and these "scholars" would be arguing about the interpretation of Dwarf song. A fully annotated leather bound version of the Silmarillion would get tossed across the room and break a beer bottle on the mantle.

It's a work of fiction, people.

People fighting over bible verses are exactly as ridiculous.
posted by tkchrist at 5:40 PM on August 31, 2008 [7 favorites]

At what point does the chance of less than 1 in 1500 become scientifically impossible to believe of a given family?

Sorry - that was wrongly worded. ...become scientifically improbable enough to dismiss. A one in 1500 chance is pretty likely to happen given sufficient opportunities. CF lotteries. I think your pleas to science are miscalled.
posted by Sparx at 5:40 PM on August 31, 2008

Andrew Sullivan is on the fake pregnancy story now. It's got legs. She's going to have to answer questions on it or drop out, I think.

Brilliant news! The Republicans choose a VP candidate whose only value to them is that she brings the abortion debate onto the news agenda, and so skilled Democrat internet detectives decide to neutralise this threat by ensuring that the abortion debate will remain central to the news agenda for weeks. Great work, everybody.

Now, if only you can maybe out one of those gay friends she's got as well, then you can let the Republicans talk about how the Dems support gay marriage too, while making yourselves look like assholes in the process. Yeah, that would pretty much put the election in the bag.
posted by flashboy at 5:46 PM on August 31, 2008 [7 favorites]

It's not going to be "internet detectives" that get the story out there, it'll likely be the National Enquirer. There's no way they aren't already all over this story. I bet they have people in AK right now interviewing classmates and hospital staff.
posted by empath at 5:50 PM on August 31, 2008

Brilliant news! The Republicans choose a VP candidate whose only value to them is that she brings the abortion debate onto the news agenda, and so skilled Democrat internet detectives decide to neutralise this threat by ensuring that the abortion debate will remain central to the news agenda for weeks. Great work, everybody.

I totally agree. Progressives are miserable and keeping to their own strategic talking points. The perils of free thinking.

Now, if only you can maybe out one of those gay friends she's got as well, then you can let the Republicans talk about how the Dems support gay marriage too, while making yourselves look like assholes in the process. Yeah, that would pretty much put the election in the bag.

Bro, they're gonna do that anyway. It's a forgone conclusion. Teh Gay Marriage and Abortion (which they will never outlaw because it's simply too useful an issue) are all they got. That is the one two punch of a desperate GOP hoping to cultivate a whole new crop of American Morons. And it works.

Terror won't work as well because it opens up Iraq as a topic. Unless there is a new attack. And even that might backfire because the dems could JUST as easily say "See. We told you we weren't safer."
posted by tkchrist at 5:54 PM on August 31, 2008

DarlingBri Well I guess "no change" was a bit of an overstatement. The point is that sustained attack and small results (each of which can be lauded) over a long time is what is desired. To win a total ban on abortion is to obviate, for the Republicans, the easiest and most profitable avenue for scooping up votes. They don't want to "win" they want to "be winning" for as long as possible, carrying the vote and (surprise) doing a bit of non-abortion-related policymaking on the side and under the radar.
posted by damo at 5:55 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Andrew Sullivan is on the fake pregnancy story now.

Hmm, that's probably why the link to the hospital list of baby names and photos seems borked at the moment. Hell, the entire hospital's website isn't coming up now. Somewhere in Alaska, an IT department is having fits, poor things.

It's got legs. She's going to have to answer questions on it or drop out, I think.

The legs are wobbly and there are any number of answers that could dispel this rumor.

However, the "She was for the Alaskan Bridge to Nowhere" and "Troopergate" stories have good, strong legs and the plausible answers for them are enough to get several people in a lot of trouble.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:58 PM on August 31, 2008

However, the "She was for the Alaskan Bridge to Nowhere" and "Troopergate" stories have good, strong legs and the plausible answers for them are enough to get several people in a lot of trouble.

How sad is that. This is the dems ammo? "Trooper-gate?"

In a country that was even 15% educated as to what our problems really are would take one look at Palin and laugh it's collective asses off.

It's takes some idiotic trumped up scandal to disqualify an obviously completely unqualified numbskull from running the most powerful nation in the history of humanity.

God. I want to cry.
posted by tkchrist at 6:05 PM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

But here's the thing: you want her to have to "answer questions" about it, but don't you see that - given the extreme unlikelihood of anybody being able to find a smoking afterbirth, even if the rumours somehow were true - it won't mean probing questions about her integrity and judgment from seasoned political reporters? It'll mean heart-to-hearts on the morning talk shows, on which she'll be able to talk about how important her faith is to her, and how these vicious attacks have been deeply hurtful, but ultimately have brought her family even closer together. And she'll get to say how it just shows that the Democrats are running scared if they have to resort to such wild accusations, and how her sudden exposure to the vultures of the mainstream media only make her appreciate the honest, down-to-earth folks back in her hometown all the more.

And in all that time, nobody will be able to ask her about Troopergate, or why she lied about opposing the bridge to nowhere, or how she expects to be VP when she doesn't even understand the most basic elements of foreign policy.

Given that she's the weakest VP candidate in a long, long time, with an embarassment of angles that could be used to attack her, why on earth would you be happy about the dominant one being a conspiracy-theory longshot that has a 1% chance of playing well for your side, and a 99% chance of giving your opponents exactly what they want?
posted by flashboy at 6:05 PM on August 31, 2008 [12 favorites]

I honestly don't think she'll last a month. She's going to withdraw to spend more time with her family. It's kind of obvious that she has a LOT of enemies in Alaska, and they're going to do a lot of talking, and it seems that McCain's camp didn't talk to anybody before they picked her. This whole thing just reaks of desperation. I think McCain just sunk his own campaign by choosing her.
posted by empath at 6:07 PM on August 31, 2008

I am seriously regretting the use of the phrase "smoking afterbirth".
posted by flashboy at 6:10 PM on August 31, 2008 [6 favorites]

I think GrizzlyBay.org did a good job of organising and presenting why Sarah Palin is unfit to serve as Vice President of this (or any) country.
posted by batmonkey at 6:11 PM on August 31, 2008

If the dems really want to hit Palin, why not just run an ad about her husband with the tagline "The McCain campaign is in bed with big oil."
posted by drezdn at 6:11 PM on August 31, 2008

It'll mean heart-to-hearts on the morning talk shows, on which she'll be able to talk about how important her faith is to her, and how these vicious attacks have been deeply hurtful, but ultimately have brought her family even closer together. And she'll get to say how it just shows that the Democrats are running scared if they have to resort to such wild accusations, and how her sudden exposure to the vultures of the mainstream media only make her appreciate the honest, down-to-earth folks back in her hometown all the more.

DOES EVERYBODY SEE THIS? This is it, right here. Let this shit drop. For the next sixty-odd days, all the Dems basically need to do is stick to the script. We do NOT need to basically roll out the red carpet for this person onto center stage. That said:

Given that she's the weakest VP candidate in a long, long time

Am I the only one who misses Stockdale? Holy crap that guy was entertaining.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:15 PM on August 31, 2008 [4 favorites]

smoking afterbirth

That is just priceless, flashboy.
posted by cashman at 6:15 PM on August 31, 2008

God. I want to cry.

That's because you still have a shred of hope left. You got to tear that shit out, tkchrist, tear it out.
posted by milarepa at 6:16 PM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

This is the dems ammo?

No, of course not. The Dems haven't even formulated an attack about Palin yet, nor do they need to. There's plenty of fish to fry and I suspect that'll start happening in earnest after the GOP convention.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:19 PM on August 31, 2008

That's because you still have a shred of hope left. You got to tear that shit out, tkchrist, tear it out.

I tried. First I tore one of my kidneys. As an example to the others. But still they all rebelled. My hear kept bleeding. My brain kept thinking up reasons why things are gonna fail. And my hope, laying there, battered and withered, in the corner staring at me with it's one good eye welling with noble tears refused to let go of my innards.

So I took out one of my lungs and shot it right there. BAM!

And I said: Look mother fuckers I ain't playing! Everybody off the boat or I kill this sorry mother fucker (pointing to my dignity) next!

But nobody budged. They called my bluff.
posted by tkchrist at 6:35 PM on August 31, 2008

Are you for or against the death penalty? If you're for it, how to you reconcile the two views?

Not directed at me, I know, and this is not necessarily a reflection of my own views, but I would say that it's much easier to reconcile a viewpoint that purports to execute the guilty, and let the innocent live, than to kill the innocent, and let the guilty live.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 6:45 PM on August 31, 2008

For what it's worth, this is Sarah Palin pregnant with one of her other children.
posted by EarBucket at 6:51 PM on August 31, 2008

There's 1,357 comments; I can't possibly read them all, so I don't know if Diesel Sweeties' take has been posted yet. If not, here it is.
posted by yhbc at 6:52 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Holy shit.

The campaign of John McCain has sent a staff of eight people into Alaska to conduct background checks and vetting on Governor Sarah Palin.

Word is they have have eight rooms reserved at a Wasilla hotel.

This is insane.
posted by EarBucket at 7:12 PM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

I switched to the Democratic Party a few years ago because I was better than this kind of Rovian shit, so kindly shut the fuck up.

Well. Ahem. I stand corrected.
posted by gjc at 7:23 PM on August 31, 2008

but I would say that it's much easier to reconcile a viewpoint that purports to execute the guilty, and let the innocent live, than to kill the innocent, and let the guilty live.

Opposing abortion fits well into the punitive cleanse-killing mindset because there must be a hallowed state of purity that exists in order for them to kill others for their perceived sins. It's exactly why they are so creepy, because people who cross boundaries of privacy are either murderers or rapists unless they are organized as judging fascists. They believe they are entitled to decide our personal lives either way.
posted by Brian B. at 7:29 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Josh Marshall on why Trooper Gate is important

"We rely on elected officials not to use the power of their office to pursue personal agendas or vendettas. It's called an abuse of power. There is ample evidence that Palin used her power as governor to get her ex-brother-in-law fired. When his boss refused to fire him, she fired his boss. She first denied Monegan's claims of pressure to fire Wooten and then had to amend her story when evidence proved otherwise. The available evidence now suggests that she 1) tried to have an ex-relative fired from his job for personal reasons, something that was clearly inappropriate, and perhaps illegal, though possibly understandable in human terms, 2) fired a state official for not himself acting inappropriately by firing the relative, 3) lied to the public about what happened and 4) continues to lie about what happened. "

What most people don't seem to be getting is that this isn't about Palin's sleazy brother in law trooper getting fired, it's that she fired Monegan, the Public Safety Commissioner, because he wouldn't back her personal agenda. Forget about the ridiculous pregnancy thing, this story has legs.
posted by afu at 7:39 PM on August 31, 2008 [6 favorites]

The Pledge of Allegiance did not originally contain the words "under God."

You're one of them reality based fellas, ain't ya?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:49 PM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

For the love of all things sacred in this world, I am begging you folks: please, please, please drop this horseshit conversation about Palin's pregnancy and what she may or may not have done. It has fuck-all to do with her ability (or gross lack thereof) to serve as VP of the US, it goes against every fucking tenet of the pro-choice movement, and it is just unseemly and unbefitting this site as imaginable.

And beyond that, where's the scandal? Someone takes a bribe, someone cheats, someone steals, I get why people want to get to the bottom of such stories. Let's say a 16 year old girl gets pregnant and the baby is going to be born with Down Syndrome. Let's say her (naturally older and more experienced) parents decide to adopt the baby and raise it as their own. Is that such a bad thing? For any of the involved parties?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:49 PM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

where's the scandal?

I don't think her base would see it this way, but from my way of thinking, (if true) it's that she chose to run for vice president knowing that she hadn't been vetted and this would come out and expose her daughter to the world. Also, choosing to place the child (symbolically) at the center of her campaign.
posted by Bookhouse at 8:01 PM on August 31, 2008

Well, it would say a whole lot about the McCain campaign's complete lack of investigation. "Okay, now, just one more question - all these kids; are they all yours? You understand, we just have to ask."
posted by yhbc at 8:02 PM on August 31, 2008

Sorry to keep posting TPM links, but this is an interesting angle I haven't seen brought up. How will Palin's endorsement of Buchanan affect the jewish vote?
posted by afu at 8:02 PM on August 31, 2008

it's that she chose to run for vice president knowing that she hadn't been vetted and this would come out and expose her daughter to the world.

the next time people accuse republicans of being "american morons" i'm going to remember this thread and all the idiotic speculation on this subject you and others have indulged in

you're every bit as bad as they are
posted by pyramid termite at 8:05 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

The Pledge of Allegiance did not originally contain the words "under God." When it was written in 1892.

There you go again with that intellectual snobbery. Joe Sixpack and Sally Walmart can't relate to things like "facts". Everyone knows Americans are drooling imbeciles who need their steak cut for them and fed to them on forks of liberty. This is why Americans today love Bush, love the war, and why they've let the farthest right control Congress. And you can't tell me different! LAlalalalalalalala!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:05 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Hey, pyramid termite, that's uncalled for. I'm not saying it's true, I'm answering PSH's question about where the scandal is. My answer, shortened: people with secrets they want to keep shouldn't step in the spotlight. If that's moronic, then I suppose I'm a moron. But I fail to see how it's untrue.
posted by Bookhouse at 8:08 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

I forgot to mention-when one of my fitness instructors told me she was voting for McCain, she also said-and her exact words were something like this: "she wasn't voting for that Communist" meaning Obama.
....

Seriously, what are we supposed to do about someone that stupid? That's like me saying, hey, McCain fans, watch out, a kid at the record store today told me he wasn't voting for "that Nazi McCain".

You can't just dismiss a voter like this as stupid - she probably isn't.

This is a really serious issue. What does it mean to American political discourse when a large (if minority) part of the population seriously believes that Obama is radically left wing? He's not even radical compared to other members of the Democratic Party -- trust me, I'm left-wing (seriously mellowed over time, but still radical by American standards), and the online "Who should I vote for" things always tell me that I agree most with Kucinich and then (a distant second) Edwards -- Obama comes way down the list. He's been making noises about protectionist economic policies, but there are rumours that's just talk; the Economist (which hovers somewhere slightly to the left of Ronald Regan) has been shaking a finger at that protectionist talk, but otherwise talking somewhat approvingly of his economic plans.

I believe that konolia's aquaintance really does believe that Obama is a communist. Perhaps she believes that he will nationalise industries, or collectivise farms or something. But even if she is honest about it, she is deeply misinformed as to the facts - either his positions, or what it means to be a communist or socialist.

Watching this election from the inside but being an outsider, I can't help but feel that your political discourse is seriously broken. Or maybe the world's political discourse is broken, since my Canadian province did happily elect a party which promised fiscal responsibility by cutting taxes and selling off valuable assets to their associates for next-to-nothing and who left the province in desparate financial straits. But that government is still a by-word for "fiscal responsibility".

To be a bit melodramatic, I feel like I'm living in an Orwell novel. Black is white, the Ontario Tories are fiscally responsible, the American Republicans are competant in international relations and security and a centrist candidate is a communist.

How do we fix this? Democracy cannot function in a world of rumour and misunderstanding and disinformation - people can't make the best choices if they don't understand what those choices really are.

And I'm not saying that just because they don't agree with me, they must be misinformed. I respect the voter who understands the issues, and really believes the other solution is better. (If I think they are wrong, I will tell them so, and try to find the best research and information to demostrate why.) People also have different values to balance - I, for instance, might vote for a more economically centrist candidate would push for gay marriage over a more left wing one who wanted a ban on gay marriages.

But I worry deeply about voters who are swayed by labels and names and rumours, who don't really understand what the policies are that they are voting for, and how that will affect them and their children. Like someone who seriously believes that an American candidate proposed by a major party is radically left-wing, let alone communist. I mean, the Communist Party of China isn't even communist anymore!* This voter may or may not have agreed with the candidate on his actual platform, but as it is she clearly does not know or understand his platform. Which means that democracy is breaking.

*Still really scary and authoritarian, though sometimes they surprise me.
posted by jb at 8:13 PM on August 31, 2008 [4 favorites]

it seems that McCain's camp didn't talk to anybody before they picked her.

Sarah Palin Wasn't Vetted

"There are reports that the McCain campaign came up with the idea to pick Palin a week ago, and then only vetted her for four days. That would explain the plethora of bad news the blogs and the corporate media have been able to find on her in such a short period of time. And now we have even more evidence that John McCain simply wung it in picking a neophyte with no national security experience as the person who may replace him as president in as little as six months. McCain didn't even check her hometown paper to see what it had to say about her. At some point, McCain's actions become reckless. You don't choose a vice presidential candidate who isn't qualified simply because she might help you pick up a few votes here and there. It's Dan Quayle, and Harriet Miers, and Brownie all over again. And it speaks very poorly of John McCain's first significant decision as our potentially future commander in chief."

posted by ericb at 8:14 PM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

Hey, pyramid termite, that's uncalled for.

if you don't want people saying you smell, get out of the sewer - the scandal is people's willingness to stoop to any level of vicious slander in the interest of partisan politics
posted by pyramid termite at 8:15 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

The Pledge of Allegiance did not originally contain the words "under God." When it was written in 1892.

Originally written here in Boston by Francis Bellamy (Baptist minister and Vice President of Education, Society of Christian Socialists) at 142 Berkeley St./209 Columbus Ave., Boston -- the building (known as 'The Historical Pledge of Allegiance Building') in which is now located (among others) the New England Bartending School ... and long-standing gay bar Club Café.
posted by ericb at 8:26 PM on August 31, 2008

Idiots, can't you see the hand of Rove behind the pregnancy bullshit?

If you dumbshits continue to press on with this moronic hypothesis, all you will accomplish is to distract voters from other much more important issues. Which is exactly what the Republican party desperately, desperately needs, because on every other count they're doomed to failure.

Get smarter, people. Don't fall for the easy hype.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:33 PM on August 31, 2008 [7 favorites]

Word, fff.

Remember that really cool part of Obama speech on Thursday, where he talked about making the race about big important stuff, cause this is a big important time? And not getting caught up in the stupid small stuff?

This.
is.
small.

Human (and American) produced climate change destroying the city of New Orleans every three years is not small stuff. Transitioning away from fossil fuels (some good talking points against Palin, here) is not small stuff. Having the knowledge and wherewithal to make strong choices with a level head in the face of a chaotic world is not small stuff. McCain/Palin suck on all these fronts; hit them there. Make this an election about the small stuff and the Republicans will win. Obama has been consistently driving the narrative this entire election; the fact that McCain can't keep a straight story works to Obama's favor. And the high road, with big issues, is where the narrative needs to stay, for Obama to win and for the better of the country. Let's put country first!
posted by kaibutsu at 8:50 PM on August 31, 2008 [19 favorites]

Idiots, can't you see the hand of Rove behind the pregnancy bullshit?

Oh, come now. Karl Rove certainly has the power to accomplish many nefarious deeds, but getting someone pregnant with his hand strains credulity!
posted by scody at 8:52 PM on August 31, 2008 [16 favorites]

Well said, kaibutsu.
posted by Bookhouse at 8:53 PM on August 31, 2008

If she wanted to be president, then she wouldn't have been from Alaska.
posted by every_one_needs_a_hug_sometimes at 9:05 PM on August 31, 2008

One person said: I forgot to mention-when one of my fitness instructors told me she was voting for McCain, she also said-and her exact words were something like this: "she wasn't voting for that Communist" meaning Obama.
....

Then another one responded: Seriously, what are we supposed to do about someone that stupid? That's like me saying, hey, McCain fans, watch out, a kid at the record store today told me he wasn't voting for "that Nazi McCain".

Lastly, jb chimed in with: You can't just dismiss a voter like this as stupid - she probably isn't.

Sure we can dismiss this person as stupid. If anybody seriously thinks that a candidate for president of the United States of America in 2008 gets this far into the process while being a tried and true Communist is, in fact, a card carrying idiot. A person like this is so far to the right that he or she cannot even see the center. You really think that a person that thinks this way would even consider voting Democratic, no matter who the candidate is? If someone were to dig up the rotten corpse of Jesse Helms from Oakwood Cemetary here in Raleigh, dress him up in a suit and called him the official presidential candidate for the Democratic Party, this White Goodman wannabe that konolia speaks of would dismiss him as a Commie.
Heh, "Communist."
posted by NoMich at 9:10 PM on August 31, 2008 [8 favorites]

Who was he? Why was he here?

Vice Admiral James Bond "Skeet Skeet" Stockdale was H. Ross Perot's VP running mate in 1992. He was a Vietnam War POW like McCain, and is best known for such riveting performances as this and this.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:14 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

I really don't understand all the "don't go there" stuff. You act like we're all democratic operatives and you're all PR geniuses. As far as I can tell, everyone writing about this are just political junkies with an axe to grind. The Obama CAMPAIGN is never going to touch this story with a 600 foot pole. If it ever becomes an issue, it will be because the media makes it an issue. I'm sure the National Enquirer will find the story, if there is one.

I think she may drop out before it even gets to that point, anyway. Not just for the weird pregnancy story, but because she's way over her head.
posted by empath at 9:14 PM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

The Pledge of Allegiance did not originally contain the words "under God." When it was written in 1892.

Marisa STPT: There you go again with that intellectual snobbery. Joe Sixpack and Sally Walmart can't relate to things like "facts". Everyone knows Americans are drooling imbeciles who need their steak cut for them and fed to them on forks of liberty. This is why Americans today love Bush, love the war, and why they've let the farthest right control Congress. And you can't tell me different! LAlalalalalalalala!

If this is directed at me, perhaps you missed how I replied to your (rather more graciously stated, but hey, it's been a long frustrating thread) objection earlier: The tone, as well as the substance, of Obama's supporters' critiques will affect whether people on the fence will want to vote for him.

Derision and petty dirt-digging directed by Obama supporters at private "issues" like being a former beauty pageant contestant, having a Bachelor's in journalism from U of Idaho, choosing to have a Down syndrome child, the infinitesimal chance that that child is really her daughter's, will not help Obama to cement his hard-won place.

It's likely to turn people who are not already Obama fans right the fuck off. Facts about Palin's lack of experience, lying about her support for the Bridge to Nowhere, abuses of power as mayor, ignorance of her own country's history, emblazoned across public psyches with something that at least resembles objectivity and class - this is more likely to find root with former or wavering Republicans who are receptive to facts and good-faith debates and are sick to death of the kind of Rovian juvenile gossip that this thread has unfortunately proven isn't restricted to right-wingers.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 9:15 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Honestly, cybercoitous interruptus, my comment was not directed at you. I was just using a really ham-fisted satire of the argument that Americans are idiots who love Republicans. I entirely agree that for Democrats to suddenly take the low road in this campaign would be a huge mistake, and I'm fairly confident the Obama campaign isn't going to exert the effort needed to talk about Palin's reproductive system, when all they have to do is keep their hands at 10 and 2 on cruise control.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:23 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

The tone, as well as the substance, of Obama's supporters' critiques will affect whether people on the fence will want to vote for him.

That's complete bullshit and it flies in the face of 200 years of political history in the US. Negative campaigning works, and that has been proven over and over again. If Obama's campaign keeps its hands clean, then the blowback should be minimal. I say that Obama's supporters should be free to be as dirty as they want. And nobody can stop them anyway. If Obama had the power to stop them, he'd be responsible for them, but he doesn't and he's not.
posted by empath at 9:31 PM on August 31, 2008

“Meanwhile, Palin’s mother-in-law, Faye Palin, told a New York Daily News reporter that she didn’t agree with Sarah on everything and hadn’t yet decided how she would vote. She added: “I’m not sure what she brings to the ticket other than she’s a woman and a conservative.

posted by drezdn at 9:36 PM on August 31, 2008

Is it too late to blame bush?
posted by Balisong at 9:48 PM on August 31, 2008

Does anyone know more about this:

"Alaska is the first line of defense in our missile interceptor defense system. The 49th Missile Defense Battalion of the Alaska National Guard is the unit that protects the entire nation from ballistic missile attacks. It’s on permanent active duty, unlike other Guard units. As governor of Alaska, Palin is briefed on highly classified military issues, homeland security, and counterterrorism. Her exposure to classified material may rival even Biden's.

She's also the commander in chief of the Alaska State Defense Force (ASDF), a federally recognized militia incorporated into Homeland Security's counterterrorism plans.

Palin is privy to military and intelligence secrets that are vital to the entire country's defense. Given Alaska's proximity to Russia, she may have security clearances we don't even know about."

posted by =^^= at 9:53 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

And now we have even more evidence that John McCain simply wung it in picking a neophyte

wung? christ in a turbocharged prius, bloggers are fucking dumb.
posted by quonsar at 9:55 PM on August 31, 2008

So that puts her on a level with Poland? Man, everyone forgets Poland.
posted by Artw at 9:56 PM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

Sure we can dismiss this person as stupid. If anybody seriously thinks that a candidate for president of the United States of America in 2008 gets this far into the process while being a tried and true Communist is, in fact, a card carrying idiot

She didn't literally mean that she thought he was a card carrying member of the Communist party. She was just expressing how she saw him as a leftist. Please remember that to folks on the right the word "communist" is kinda an epithet for those folks they see as on the extreme left. I AM telling you that a lot of people I know really do see him as an extreme leftist whether or not that is where Democrats think he fits on the political spectrum.
posted by konolia at 10:01 PM on August 31, 2008

remember, everything you say here will be here, pretty much forever. giggle.
posted by dawson at 10:08 PM on August 31, 2008

If Obama had the power to stop them, he'd be responsible for them, but he doesn't and he's not.

The rules that apply to Democrats do not apply to Republicans. Obama will be blamed for this shit, and it will hurt his campaign.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:16 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Does anyone know more about this

It's a bit of a stretch. First of all, "Alaska is the first line of defense in our missile interceptor defense system. The 49th Missile Defense Battalion of the Alaska National Guard is the unit that protects the entire nation from ballistic missile attacks." - According to the PDF file accompanying that article, the 49th Missile Defense Battalion is a part of 100th Missile Defense Brigade, which was made operational in response to the 2006 North Korea missile "crisis". Also, Alaska is not our "first line of defense", nor does it protect "the entire nation" from attacks - that's a hefty pinch of hyperbole.

To say that "her exposure to classified material may rival even Biden's" is laughable, and even the author of the blog post says himself that this is "highly unlikely as Biden's seat on the Foreign Relations committee would expose him to information on a very wide array of topics."

"She's also the commander in chief of the Alaska State Defense Force (ASDF), a federally recognized militia incorporated into Homeland Security's counterterrorism plans." - Numerous states have SDF's which are federally recognized. What their involvment with Homeland Security is, I don't know, and the author of the post doesn't cite any source for that, either.

"Palin is privy to military and intelligence secrets that are vital to the entire country's defense. Given Alaska's proximity to Russia, she may have security clearances we don't even know about." - Maybe, maybe not. Maybe she likes 7-11 pizza. Who the hell knows?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:22 PM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

Re: Palin receiving national security briefings: the AP debunks.
posted by Bookhouse at 10:22 PM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

Some Conservatives Air Concerns Over Palin.
posted by ericb at 10:24 PM on August 31, 2008

birdherder writes "And the Cindy McCain foreign policy experience because lives close to Alaska? That's bullshit! On my map Alaska is down off the coast of California next to Hawaii. "

I've often wondered whether a significant portion of Americans think Alaska is an island. Maps never show any bit of the Yukon and it is usually floating in the pacific somewhere, often not even in an inset.

ericb writes "Aboard Alaska Airlines, the flight lasted for eight hours, with an additional landing in Seattle."

Good thing they didn't have one of those 12 hour quasi hostage situations where they don't let anyone leave the plane because they've already pushed off.

delmoi writes "Ugh, you're kidding right? It's illegal to take pregnancy and reproductive choices into consideration when hiring!! My guess is you've never been anywhere near a hiring committee. If you did that, the woman could sue your company into the ground. "

How about for filing a false birth certificate? I don't know about Alaska specifically but it is illegal in many states because they want to chase down deadbeat dads instead of providing welfare.

torticat writes "They had three children in four years and then two more over the next 14. They don't believe abortion is an option. Connect the dots. "

A change to butsecks?

konolia writes "I thought it was the extremists who came over the Iraqi border from Syria and Jordan who are murdering innocents over there. AT least that is what the soldier from church who comes to my house and eats at my table says. The soldier who has actually BEEN over there to see for himself."

Was he one of those soldiers who blew up Canadians or Brits?
posted by Mitheral at 10:26 PM on August 31, 2008

EDIT: Regarding SDFs - I take back what I said about Homeland Security. It says right there in the Wiki article that "SDFs generally operate with emergency management and homeland security missions." and later on, "Efforts are being made in Congress to better integrate the State Defense Forces into a larger Homeland Security strategy." So it doesn't seem Alaska is necessarily unique in that regard.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:29 PM on August 31, 2008

Andrew Sullivan is now backing off the childbirth rumor, as photos of her clearly pregnant surface.

McCain says in an interview that she possesses more experience than Obama.

Sometimes, I read things and I feel as if I am going crazy.
posted by Bookhouse at 10:29 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Trust me: it's not the kind of thing that would lose her any support among her already-ardent fanbase

That was my point. It's an interesting bit of internet-detectiving in and of itself (with all the odd bits of info/behavior/coincidence, my gut says something is fishy there), but in the big picture: so what.

I don't think any Dem supporter really wants the Dems touching this issue, because the blowback could be huge. My guess is that Palin's supporters and likely-supporters would love her all the more for it, since it's the classic, old-fashioned, religious thing to do to "protect her daughter's honor" and whatnot.
posted by rokusan at 10:29 PM on August 31, 2008

Has Palin ever been to Washington, D.C.?
posted by Rumple at 10:40 PM on August 31, 2008

I know. T'was just a quip about his soaring rhetorical gifts at the '92 VP debate. :)

That's what I loved about Stockdale! Here we have a very wooden Gore, an unwatchable Quayle, and then ... some old guy who stumbled in from the Denny's brunch buffet. By comparison, Stockdale was as entertaining as a monkey on a unicycle.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:41 PM on August 31, 2008

The rules that apply to Democrats do not apply to Republicans. Obama will be blamed for this shit, and it will hurt his campaign.

Insofar as this is true, it may require a take-no-prisoners approach to this election to finally break the hold of the Republican dominionist minority over the downward trajectory our country is taking.

In any case, Palin wishes to push her morality down everyone's throats, and her role as VP would give her greater realm to exercise those wishes, so her own life choices deserve just as much scrutiny, as offensive as that might be to the sensibilities of some.

That kind of scrutiny may bring the left "down," but the religious right and their Republican representatives never hesitate to play dirty pool, so putting a spotlight on these hypocrites may be necessary to save the country.

In any case, when was calling out hypocrisy "dirty pool"? When we did agree to become a nation of cowards, unable to confront bullies at their own game?

Ultimately, there's a lot to point out about Palin's utter inadequacies as a Vice Presidential candidate. Her abuse of her position, her ignorance about basic American civil history, her Creationist, anti-reason views, her complete lack of experience on the national and international scene, etc. So Obama's campaign doesn't need to address any of the bizarre circumstances surrounding her supposed "pregnancy".

There's a lot to work with. There's a lot Obama's campaign should work with. I would question giving Obama my vote if he did not fight back against the American Taliban. It sucks, but there is a Culture War, the stakes are as high as they have ever been, and the sooner the good guys start fighting fire with a fire extinguisher, the better.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:43 PM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

photos of her clearly pregnant surface
What about her clearly pregnant interior?
posted by lukemeister at 10:44 PM on August 31, 2008

What about her clearly pregnant interior?

You'll have to speak to her doctor for photos of that.
posted by Bookhouse at 10:52 PM on August 31, 2008

I would question giving Obama my vote if he did not fight back against the American Taliban. It sucks, but there is a Culture War, the stakes are as high as they have ever been, and the sooner the good guys start fighting fire with a fire extinguisher, the better.

I appreciate where you're coming from, but something about this Machiavellian aspect bothers me. Maybe because I've spent considerable time arguing that we should not torture POWs nor bomb civilians because we are better than our enemies. I like to think that being better than your opponent counts for something, and the moral high ground is certainly working for Obama thus far.

Exposing hypocrisy is fine. But on issues that matter. Her acting like the drunken sheriff of an Old West town in terms of abuse of power, while at the same time touting good Christian values, that's an excellent example. The possibility of covering her daughter's kid as her own? Not so much. Probably because a) it drags the poor girl through the mud when she shouldn't even be in the discussion and b) there's nothing wrong with trying to protect your child's honor, though our definition of "honor" my vary.

The end that some think justifies these means doesn't need these means. Like you said, we've got plenty more to work with. Why would we not only chance it all by playing dirty, but also play dirty in the first place? I don't see it as cowardice so much as trying to elevate this discourse.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:57 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

You silly children may wanna read up a bit on James Stockdale before you dismiss him as an old ignorant idiot. Quite educated, he was widely seen as a philosopher and,even the anti-war folks admired his intellect and courage. Probably you haven't even read one book about him, but he's sorta not someone to make fun of. Damn, people in the states really are mostly stupid, callous and egocentric.
posted by dawson at 10:59 PM on August 31, 2008

Oh, lighten up, dawson. We're talking about his debate performance, not his entire carreer. Even Lennon had his lousy shows.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:01 PM on August 31, 2008

That pic of her pregnant looks old, like 1980s-old with the big frizz hair and big glasses.... Recent pictures showing her pregnant.

It's time to drop this ridiculous, distracting story and focus on real reasons she is not a good VP candidate.
posted by Rumple at 11:05 PM on August 31, 2008

One person said: I forgot to mention-when one of my fitness instructors told me she was voting for McCain, she also said-and her exact words were something like this: "she wasn't voting for that Communist" meaning Obama.
....

Then another one responded: Seriously, what are we supposed to do about someone that stupid? That's like me saying, hey, McCain fans, watch out, a kid at the record store today told me he wasn't voting for "that Nazi McCain".

Lastly, jb chimed in with: You can't just dismiss a voter like this as stupid - she probably isn't.

Sure we can dismiss this person as stupid.

Or we can describe her as an effective "Republican by Faith" who proselytizes her single-issue insanity to very great effect. "Republican" has come to mean "Christian Fundamentals" in the USA. It means effective theocracy: the law will be guided by the fundamentals of the Christian faith.

These are the people who voted a second time despite his self-evident failures for the exact same person and power structure. Despite the harm to America's interests these people would vote for Bush a third time: konolia as plain as admits it by remaining a staunch supporter of Bush! It is astounding but true.

Honestly, get the hell out of the country if konolia's demographic are going to be influential in determining whether the US is managed in the broad interests of the public good vis a vis the quality of education, healthcare, fiscal security, and the basic capability of self-sustainance; or the very specific interest of an anti-science, anti-social, anti-independent-freedom clan of Christian Dominionists. You're heading toward Iranian-style rule.

I still like George [Bush]. My son just graduated from USAFA, and Bush was there, saluting and shaking hands with every grad. My son said to him, "Sir, your approval rating is high with me!" You can see on the DVD (yes, I have one) where Bush pulls him back and says something to him. What he said was this: "Approval ratings are not important. What is important is doing the right thing."
I want to vote for people who are interested in doing the right thing, not the popular thing.

They are single-issue morons. Regardless the economic harm to the country as the result of incompetence or malice, regardless the security risks as the result of incompetence, regardless the rights reductions as the result of malic and power-seeking, regardless the wholesale theft of public services and public interests, she will vote for only those candidates who oppose abortion to the point of banning it entirely. Fuck the rest of you, your best interests, your health and welfare, abortion must be banned.

America's biggest security risks are within the country, not outside it.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:05 PM on August 31, 2008 [20 favorites]

where I say Rove, I mean the Rovian-style apparatchik. The Kristolites. Neo-Straussians.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:20 PM on August 31, 2008

"Republican" has come to mean "Christian Fundamentals" in the USA. It means effective theocracy: the law will be guided by the fundamentals of the Christian faith.

This brings Goldwater to mind:

There is no position on which people are so immovable as their religious beliefs. There is no more powerfull ally one can claim in a debate than Jesus, God, or Allah, or whatever one calls the supreme being. But like any powerful weapon, the use of God’s name on one’s behalf should be used sparingly. The religious factions that are growing throughout our land are not using their religious clout with wisdom. They are trying to force government leaders into following their position 100 percent. If you disagree with these religious groups on a particular moral issue, they complain, they threaten you with a loss of money or votes or both. I’m frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in A,B,C, and D. Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of every religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my vote on every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of conservatism.

posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:23 PM on August 31, 2008 [4 favorites]

Andrew Sullivan is now backing off the childbirth rumor, as photos of her clearly pregnant surface.

Oh please, they're totally Photoshopped. Notice how the cameraman isn't focused on Palin? and how her clothing appears so dark, yet the walls are creme colored and there's a bright light in the room. As every educated person knows, Tidios's third principle of light clearly states that the wavelength of light is converted spontaneously into something else that'll fit the theory.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:26 PM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

I can hardly wait for Tuesday. Hopefully Obama will be well-rested and ready to again spin the dream of an America worth living in. I'm tired of this pregnancy bullshit and anti-abortion bullshit and first sexy librarian bullshit.

America is better than this. America deserves more than this.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:38 PM on August 31, 2008

But here's the thing: you want her to have to "answer questions" about it, but don't you see that - given the extreme unlikelihood of anybody being able to find a smoking afterbirth, even if the rumours somehow were true - it won't mean probing questions about her integrity and judgment from seasoned political reporters? It'll mean heart-to-hearts on the morning talk shows, on which she'll be able to talk about how important her faith is to her, and how these vicious attacks have been deeply hurtful, but ultimately have brought her family even closer together. -- flashboy

Exactly! The people pushing this are crazy. Crazy to think it could ever happen in the real world, crazy to think 'asking questions' about it could do any good, crazy to think they could ever be proven right, and most of all, crazy to think this could possibly convince people to vote for Obama.

I swear some people are so filled with anti-republican rage they can't even see straight. Not that the republicans aren't worthy targets, but incoherent ranting and conspiratorial thinking isn't going to help anyone.

That said, I doubt these rumors are going to have any impact beyond the blogs and the depths of Daily Kos diaries. I do think this pick will seriously damage McCain overall, and undecidedes hate her see this Joe Kline post about a Frank Luntz focus group. Swing voters think she's ridiculous.

I forgot to mention-when one of my fitness instructors told me she was voting for McCain, she also said-and her exact words were something like this: "she wasn't voting for that Communist" meaning Obama.

“I guess that puts me in a box of being hard-core Republican ... the Democrats also preach individual freedoms and individual rights, capitalism, free market, let-it-do-its-thing-best, let people keep as much of their money that they earn as possible. And when it comes to, like, the Party machine, no one will accuse me of being partisan.” -- Sarah Palin

...
By the way, about that national guard stuff, apparently she's not involved in any of the actual military aspects, only in coordinating disaster relief and stuff.

How about for filing a false birth certificate? I don't know about Alaska specifically but it is illegal in many states because they want to chase down deadbeat dads instead of providing welfare.

-- Birth Certificates are sealed for 100 years in Alaska (It's sad that I even know this). No one has accused her of faking his birth certificate. Jesus.

Sometimes, I read things and I feel as if I am going crazy.

The republican party is about to have convention halfway canceled due to a hurricane, and McCain is going to deliver his acceptance speech from Louisiana via satellite. Republicans are seriously trying to argue that this half a term governor has national security experience because Alaska is close to Russia, and they apparently didn't do a background check at all.

It's all very weird.
posted by delmoi at 11:40 PM on August 31, 2008 [1 favorite]

Maybe because I've spent considerable time arguing that we should not torture POWs nor bomb civilians

But we don't bomb civilians; konolia said so. Must have been those dastardly Syrians again; curse their low animal cunning!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:43 PM on August 31, 2008 [3 favorites]

You know who else grew up believing his grandmother was really his mother?
posted by Sailormom at 11:52 PM on August 31, 2008 [2 favorites]

Sarah Palin may very well think the Founding Fathers wrote the Pledge of Allegiance, but the quote doesn't prove that she does:

Are you offended by the phrase “Under God” in the Pledge of Allegiance? Why or why not?

SP: Not on your life. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me and I’ll fight in defense of our Pledge of Allegiance.

All that proves is that she thinks the Founding Fathers used the phrase "Under God."
posted by NortonDC at 12:29 AM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing writes "Am I the only one who misses Stockdale? Holy crap that guy was entertaining."

the_bone writes "Who was he? Why was he here?"

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing writes "Vice Admiral James Bond 'Skeet Skeet' Stockdale was H. Ross Perot's VP running mate in 1992. He was a Vietnam War POW like McCain, and is best known for such riveting performances as this and this."

Marisa, can you also explain what just went whizzing by over your head?
posted by orthogonality at 12:30 AM on September 1, 2008

Wow, take a look at this polling data from CNN:

"Suppose you could cast two separate votes in November -- one just for president and another vote just for vice president. Who would you be more likely to vote for if you could vote separately for vice president: Joe Biden, the Democrat, or Sarah Palin, the Republican?"

Biden: 54%
Palin: 41%
Neither: 4%
Unsure: 1%

An experienced warhorse of the Senate like Biden with a resume like a phonebook and foregin policy credentials out the wazoo versus a less-than-one-term governor of Alaska who two years ago ruled a town smaller than some large universities, and the result is that close?
posted by Rhaomi at 12:54 AM on September 1, 2008

I really don't understand all the "don't go there" stuff. You act like we're all democratic operatives and you're all PR geniuses.

As someone who plans to talk to as many people in swing states as possible over the course of the next two months, you're damned right I'm thinking about how I'm going to convince people to make up their mind for Obama and against McCain. If I have one impression to put into a person's head, I don't think the babby is the argument to try. I'm not saying we should be PR 'geniuses,' but we should at least use our heads. It's important not to look like a crackpot conspiracy theorist when trying to win someone over to your side.

And, furthermore, I have no problem with Obama using negative campaign tactics, because there is a metric shit ton of stuff to legitimately go negative on McCain about. Family values? Left his wife and children for a model with money. Principle? His words on the value of experience are the flop heard 'round the world. Honor? Did you see the celebrity ads? And these are the values he claims to hold highest; he fails by just about every other yardstick you care to measure by as well.

Again, there are much, easier, clearer narratives to pin on the guy without getting into the pregnancy or abortion (non)issues.
posted by kaibutsu at 12:54 AM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

Sarah Palin's Pregnancy Decision Map
posted by chuckdarwin at 1:48 AM on September 1, 2008 [4 favorites]

konolia writes "BTW, for you Obama fans, you might want to work on something...I forgot to mention-when one of my fitness instructors told me she was voting for McCain, she also said-and her exact words were something like this: 'she wasn't voting for that Communist' meaning Obama. "

Someone else who thinks Obama's a Communist (and maybe the anti-Christ):

I don't want a political label, but Obama bears traits that resemble the anti- Christ and I'm scared to death that un- educated people will ignorantly vote him into office. My mom likes him because his children are well dressed!

You see, what bothers me most, besides being a Communist, and a racist ...

--Saturday Night Live alum best known for playing the role of a ditzy blonde, Victoria Jackson.
posted by orthogonality at 1:58 AM on September 1, 2008

An experienced warhorse of the Senate like Biden with a resume like a phonebook and foregin policy credentials out the wazoo versus a less-than-one-term governor of Alaska who two years ago ruled a town smaller than some large universities, and the result is that close?

Close? Biden's got 13 points on her, with only 5% not choosing either of them. That's not close; that's a landslide.

The early polls indicate that Palin is clearly a polarizing candidate (and, interestingly, that she fares better among men than women). This will help the GOP in turning out their base, but base turnout alone does not win elections. Biden, on the other hand, polled the highest among undecideds/independents on the question of VP. (He polled second to Clinton among Democrats; the kicker was that Clinton polled the worst among undecided/independents.)

Now, imagine how a Joe Lieberman, Tim Pawlenty, or Kay Bailey Hutchinson would be polling against Biden right now. That, I'll wager, would be close, because ample numbers of undecideds, moderates, and independents would be more predisposed to positive impressions of them. But McCain seems not to have wanted to play to the middle on this; he played to the margins. Whether this indicates more fear of his own party's extremists or contempt for his own country's moderates (not to mention Hillary Clinton's supporters), I can't rightly say. But it does mean that while the likes of Bill Kristol might be over the moon with the choice of Palin, she's actually starting off in the red, polling-wise, with the very segment of the population that's ultimately going to decide the election.
posted by scody at 2:03 AM on September 1, 2008

Rhaomi writes "An experienced warhorse of the Senate like Biden with a resume like a phonebook and foregin policy credentials out the wazoo versus a less-than-one-term governor of Alaska who two years ago ruled a town smaller than some large universities, and the result is that close?"

In voting terms, 54-41is no where near close. It's a commanding lead just short of a landslide.

But more importantly, CNN's other polls show the race to be Obama 49% to McCain 48%. When your VP candidate is actually lagging behind the ticket as a whole, she's hurting the ticket. The whole point of a VP is to shore up a ticket, to increase its market share.

Now in certain niche markets, like Konolia's son and other Fundamentalist Christians, Palin may be what gets them to vote rather than skipping the race altogether because they detest McCain. But if she's only getting 41% against Joe Biden -- and Joe's getting a clear majority at 54% -- not only is that not close, it means McCain's gamble on Palin has misfired.

---

Now, imagine for a second you're Karl Rove. You got Bush into office on the Fundie vote, and you won Ohio and thus the race in '04 on Fundies who went to the polls to vote against gay marriage. You, Karl, know that you're not winning in '08: the long term models (Lichtman, etc.) say you won't, the '06 vote says you won't, the several dozen Republicans holding state-wide or Federal offices who won't be showing up at the Republican Convention says you won't.

And while you, Karl, have won on the backs of the Fundies, the Fundies don't really trsut you anymore. David Kuo, your token Fundie, described how you (Karl) and other White House political bosses laughed at and mocked Christians and Christianity. John DiIulio, Bush's Director of Faith-Based... Initiatives said the same thing. The Fundies are starting to feel used, and the smarter Fundies have begun to realize that subordinating Jesus to the needs of a political party debase Jesus. And that that's why polls of young people show they see Christianity as not about Jesus, or the crucification, or the Sermon on the Mount, but as a religion primarily preoccupied with persecuting gays.

You (Karl) have an problem: you know John McCain's gonna lose, and lose bad. You've never liked the guy anyway; you dragged his daughter through the mud to win the South Carolina primary in 2000. And your crack force of Christian Fundamentalist voters is waking up to realization they've been used.

So Karl's gonna make that problem an opportunity: saddle John McCain, who is going to lose anyway, with a token Fundie Christian running mate.

This is genius, for several reasons:
1. in 2012, you (Karl) can tell the Fundies that the Republican Party does respect them, the Palin candidacy proves it,
2. but the atheistic Communist liberals lynched her because she was a Christian.
3. Fundies love believing that they are a persecuted minority "just like" the 1st Century Christians, a small remnant hewing at great personal cost to the flickering flames of the truth they painfully but joyously carry like embers in their mouths. A "martyred" Palin fits right into this narrative, and ties "suffering minority for Jesus" meme to the "suffering minority Republican" meme, further cementing Fundies to a Republican Party that uses and despises them.
4. But it also gives Karl and his people an excuse not to put up a Fundie in 2012, allowing them to maintain control of the Party in the face of loose cannon and heir-apparent Mike Huckabee (who will either deal with Karl and get the nod, or buck Karl and get shafted),
5. By saying privately to the non-Fundie Republicans that the Fundie base is back under control and will vote for whatever oligarch, emplaced by Karl, will throw them a few worthless crumbs.

By putting a not ready for national politics Fundie into a sure-loss race, Karl gets to: further fuck over McCain, and demonstrate to any other potential maverick that mavericks get knee-capped; throw a sop to the Fundies; and keep the Fundies hating "the Libs" over the 2008 loss, rather than questioning what the Republicans are really doing for Fundie goals.

Pure genius, and the Fundies will never even know that they've once again been used and tossed aside.
posted by orthogonality at 2:46 AM on September 1, 2008 [17 favorites]

All those numbers are great, guys, but as Stalin always knew, you just can't beat the Diebold-Premier Edge™.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:07 AM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

A picture of her pregnant proves something? Here's another picture of a pregnant Governor.

But still. The mother/grandmother thing is really, really dumb. There's no way to frame that kind of foolishness that doesn't make the accuser look worse than the accused.
posted by dirtdirt at 3:55 AM on September 1, 2008

dirtdirt, I find that it helps if one looks at a link before commenting on it. It isn't a picture at all... it's a flow chart of sorts.

I hope my advice helps you avoid future on-line embarrassments.
posted by chuckdarwin at 4:10 AM on September 1, 2008

Thanks for going out of your way, Chuck.
posted by dirtdirt at 4:20 AM on September 1, 2008

she's way over her head.

I'm becoming more and more convinced that this is true. She didn't have any idea when she accepted the job what it would mean. If the vetting reports are true, John McCain's one of the most incompetent presidential nominees in modern history.

I'd be inclined to think she's another Eagleton, destined to drop out of the race before November, but then who could McCain possibly convince to join the ticket. Word is that Pawlenty and Romney are pissed because they feel strung along, Huckabee's pissed because he wasn't even vetted (which doesn't exclude him from being picked, apparently!) and I can't imagine that after this trainwreck and after seeing Pawlenty get the rug pulled out from under him, anyone remotely credible is going to take McCain's calls. Maybe Rudy Guiliani is still available.
posted by EarBucket at 5:04 AM on September 1, 2008

The Times of London sums up this entire MeFi thread in 1/87th the space, here and here. (Yes, including the baby weirdness, which is now officially mainstream I guess.)
posted by rokusan at 5:31 AM on September 1, 2008

For even more baby weirdness, via Deceiver there's a comment on this thread (see Sue Williams, at 12:31:50) saying that the baby is Sarah's but that Bristol is in fact pregnant and married her high school boyfriend over the summer:

It has come out in the past couple of days that she and her high school boyfriend had a quickie wedding and that she is home schooling her senior year. The Anchorage Daily News has known about this for months - and haven’t touched the story.

The rabid desire for someone in Palin's family - anyone! - to have failed to meet the standards of the conservative chastity brigade is pretty phenomenal.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:52 AM on September 1, 2008

Palin on energy.
posted by konolia at 6:33 AM on September 1, 2008

It does occur to me that the GOP vice-presidential candidate's having a developmentally disabled child is somewhat reminiscent of 1980.

posted by the duck by the oboe at 6:46 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

The rabid desire for someone in Palin's family - anyone! - to have failed to meet the standards of the conservative chastity brigade is pretty phenomenal.

Have you not been paying attention?

Haven't you noticed that the folks who are obsessed with policing other people's morality are more likely than average to misstep themselves?

How many Baptist preachers auto-asphyxiating themselves will it take for you to notice this? How many writers-about-Moral-Virtues-with-gambling- habits? How many anti-gay senators with vice squad arrests? How many priests fiddling altar boys? How many anti-abortion advocates who had to elope because they themselves were knocked up?

This is now a basic principle of American politics: the conservatives are obsessed with sexual behavior and with reproductive issues for personal reasons.

If somebody tells you: "I worry all the time about what other people get up to", they might as well be confessing to having something in their own closet.
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 6:49 AM on September 1, 2008 [4 favorites]

The most interesting thing I learned from this thread:

global is the new canadian.
posted by ericbop at 7:04 AM on September 1, 2008

Haven't you noticed that the folks who are obsessed with policing other people's morality are more likely than average to misstep themselves?
Where is the evidence that Palin's daughter is obsessed with policing other people's morality?
posted by davar at 7:09 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Haven't you noticed that the folks who are obsessed with policing other people's morality are more likely than average to misstep themselves?

i've noticed that this obsession is spreading all over the political spectrum - this thread is proof of that - you claim that they're obsessed with your morality - but people here are so obsessed, they'll make shit up

amazing

a pox on both tribes of the moral police, conservative and liberal
posted by pyramid termite at 7:10 AM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

If Obama had the power to stop them, he'd be responsible for them, but he doesn't and he's not.

The rules that apply to Democrats do not apply to Republicans. Obama will be blamed for this shit, and it will hurt his campaign.
posted by dirigibleman

That's because the Democrat party is a bottom-up organization and the Republican party is a top-down organization.
posted by Balisong at 7:26 AM on September 1, 2008

Haven't you noticed that the folks who are obsessed with policing other people's morality are more likely than average to misstep themselves?

Exactly. Their subconscious game is to get people to say to each other how normal or righteous they must be, and only then does their own confusion or guilt subside.
posted by Brian B. at 7:27 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

"I AM telling you that a lot of people I know really do see him as an extreme leftist whether or not that is where Democrats think he fits on the political spectrum."

Well, maybe you could take a brief moment to correct them, konolia. If it's really just abortion that you differ with him on, you could point that out and let people know that you, a Republican, knows that he's not a communist and that such charges are baseless and make people look stupid when they claim them.

(The "Who is babby former?" question is kinda dumb as a campaign tactic, but it's fun drama.)
posted by klangklangston at 7:39 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

But more importantly, CNN's other polls show the race to be Obama 49% to McCain 48%. When your VP candidate is actually lagging behind the ticket as a whole, she's hurting the ticket. The whole point of a VP is to shore up a ticket, to increase its market share.

National polls don't mean shit unless you're picking an American Idol winner. Until the electoral college system is changed or states give their electoral votes proportionally, the national polls are nothing more than a popularity contest.

Last I saw in Ohio it is a dead even tie with a huge undecided. That poll was before the Palin announcement, but this is exactly what happened in 2004. The only difference is there is no Ken Blackwell to come along and do things like throw out voter registrations printed on the wrong weight of paper and all that other bullshit. All they need to do is suppress a few Obama votes and have a massive evangelical/fundamentalist/anti-choice turnout and McCain wins.

Changing undecideds in California or Texas wasn't the plan here. It is the swing state strategy. Look at the map. It is about changing the toss up leaning republican states pink and/or taking away Obama toss up states.

Of course Rove's plan could backfire. Or the democrats can shoot themselves in the foot. It ain't over.
posted by birdherder at 7:52 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

delmoi writes "Birth Certificates are sealed for 100 years in Alaska (It's sad that I even know this). No one has accused her of faking his birth certificate. Jesus. "

Sorry. I thought birth records were public in which case, if this crazy rumour were true, someone would have had to falsify the record to have any hope of successfully passing off the deception.
posted by Mitheral at 7:54 AM on September 1, 2008

This choice in VPs is but an extention of America's fascination with feel-good movies where the hero goes up against great odds and overcomes The Establishment in a folksy way.--Rocky, Dave, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington--and our inability to distinguish the difference between fact and fiction--the Bush Administration.

Picture what a hit movie a certain segment of our population is envisioning:

Angelina Jolie plays the title character in the action/adventure thriller, Sarah!. She's your average Alaskan mom who gets mad enough about corruption that she runs for mayor of her little town and cleans house. (All the while, baking cookies, taking care of her family and snowshoeing through the wilderness.) Corruption on a state level forces her to run for governor to again clean house. (Still baking cookies, splinting the occasional broken arm and--to show the tough side of her compassion--shooting the family malamute when it is injured.)

Presidential elections come along and a likeable older candidate (Wilford Brimley??) goes to Alaska and begs her to be his running mate as only she can clean up Washington the way she has Alaska. (Maybe here we can have a tear-jerky scene of her talking to her son--who is headed for Iraq--and saying that they both have missions to accomplish and that they will meet again when they've made the world safe for Democracy.)

A brief couple of scenes where the scary black guy liberal candidate (Denzel in his Training Day mode?) and his minions start rumors about Sarah's oldest daughter. Daughter cries and Mom explains that she should hold her head high and know that they should prevail because God is on their side.

President What's-His-Name and Sarah win the election and within days the president is stricken by a heart attack. His last words to his VP are, "You epitomize Goodness--with the grace of God, carry on my legacy." Then he croaks.

Scenes of Son (find a new Brad Pitt-type to play him) in Iraq--his entire unit pinned down by sniper fire. It looks bad until his mother's voice-over says, "We'll meet again when we've made the world safe for Democracy. You have a mission to accomplish," and suddenly he has the power! Single-handedly, he kills the scary jihadists and saves his entire unit! Everyone is in awe and Congress calls him home so that they can bi-parisanly pin the Congressional Medal of Honor on his chest.

But suddenly there's a crisis with Russia! Over something that the Russian premiere misunderstands! Sarah gets him to come to America for one last talk before the nukes start flying and she, the premiere, and one liberal reporter are flying in Air Force One over the Rockies because...because...okay, you gotta work with me here 'cuz I got nothing, but it doesn't matter because Air Force One goes down in the Rockies! In a blizzard! Everyone is killed except Sarah, the Russian, and the liberal reporter who has a broken leg. Sarah grabs the gun from the dead Secret Service guy and shoots the reporter to put him out of his misery like she did with the family's malamute. No, wait! It's a broken arm and she splints it, earning the gratitude of the liberal press forever. Then she gets both the Premiere and the reporter to a deserted cabin just before Air Force One explodes!

Teams of government agents try a rescue but the mountains are to blizzardy for an air rescue. The only way to get to the President is straight up the mountain on a snowmobile--but who's crazy enough and brave enough to do that? Sarah's husband (Matt Damon?) is the only one with the guts and the experience to do that but how can he rescue all of them with just one snowmobile? Son suddenly appears by his dad's side and says, "Why would I go to congress for some stupid medal when mom needs me?" and they go roaring off on their snowmobiles where they jump ice chasms and encounter all sorts of deadly weather- and mountain-related stuff. Finally, when everyone has given up on finding the President alive, the First Family men reach the cabin and go inside to find Sarah serving mooseburgers. (She shot a moose and chopped the burgers herself while the liberal reporter cowers in fear. Maybe there's an avalanche or something coming.)

Well, the mooseburgers are enough to convince the Russian Premiere that America is really good so he calls off the Cold War. Mom pins the Congressional Medal of Freedom on Son's chest while the entire Congress (even the scary black guy who ran against her) cheer. Not a dry eye in the house (or senate.)

Sarah and hubby look at each other proudly and then one of them says, "That was great! We should have more babies!" Fade out as they walk hand-in-hand away from the camera.

..........................................

So that's what the American public's Hollywood idea of this VP pick is. In Real Life, however, it will not wendell.
posted by leftcoastbob at 8:18 AM on September 1, 2008 [30 favorites]

Angelina Jolie plays the title character in the action/adventure thriller, Sarah!.

That whore? No. Amy Grant in her big-screen debut.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:46 AM on September 1, 2008

Reuters: Palin Says Daughter is Pregnant
posted by jocelmeow at 8:59 AM on September 1, 2008

This seems interesting, too. It appears Palin has ties to the Alaskan Independence Party, a right-fringe group with the ultimate goal of seceding from the US.
posted by EarBucket at 9:02 AM on September 1, 2008

From jocelmeow's link:

"The despicable rumors that have been spread by liberal blogs, some even with Barack Obama's name in them, is a real anchor around the Democratic ticket, pulling them down in the mud in a way that certainly juxtaposes themselves against their 'campaign of change,'" a senior aide said.

What does, "some even with Barack Obama's name in them" mean?
posted by leftcoastbob at 9:07 AM on September 1, 2008

Palin is gunning for the 18m women who voted for Hillary Clinton

Considering that the Times article featured a photo of Palin looking down the barrel of a badass rifle, they might want to reword that.
posted by lukemeister at 9:09 AM on September 1, 2008

Ugh, seventeen years old and keeping the baby? This will appeal to the white trash wing of the party, no doubt.
posted by jayder at 9:09 AM on September 1, 2008

Reuters: Palin Says Daughter is Pregnant

The fact that this makes me giggle and titter means I'm a bad person. I accept that.
posted by ColdChef at 9:13 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

What does, "some even with Barack Obama's name in them" mean?

It means that we've been giving Rove and his buddies great material to smear Obama with. Congratulations all around.
posted by klausness at 9:32 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Good going, DailyKos! Now the McCain campaign can harp on how tawdry and prurient and privacy-invading all liberals are! I maintain we should have left this whole mess to the National Enquirer.

(Though I don't believe for a minute that McCain knew, as the story says ... they would have mentioned that within the first day if that were true.)

Now can we focus on Palin's policies, public statements, and political history? THINK OF THE BABY WOLVES.
posted by lisa g at 9:33 AM on September 1, 2008

What does, "some even with Barack Obama's name in them" mean?

I believe in this context it means Barack Obama is a celebrity closet muslim antichrist baby-killing communist who thinks so much of himself that he has the gall to be mentioned on blogs of unaffiliated rumor mongers.
posted by effwerd at 9:34 AM on September 1, 2008

Palin don't preach, I'm in trouble deep.
posted by ColdChef at 9:36 AM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

What does, "some even with Barack Obama's name in them" mean?

It is supposed to insinuate that Barack Obama somehow had a hand in spreading the rumor.
You see, a casual observer might misread it as "Obama's name on them", meaning that he is the author of those despicable rumors. But what it actually says is "Obama's name in them", so that's technically true even if he is only mentioned in no connection whatsoever to those rumors.
That senior aide is a really smart bastard, isn't he?

What I don't get is, why doesn't the so-called liberal media call them out for this shit? This is the New York Times, for crying out loud. Don't they have any self-respecting journalists left there? "Wait a minute, when you say 'with Barack Obama's name in them', do you mean that Obama personally is responsible for these rumors? Or his team? Who exactly? Do you have any proof for these allegations?" It can't be that difficult, can it?
posted by sour cream at 9:38 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Now the McCain campaign can harp on how tawdry and prurient and privacy-invading all liberals are!

Well, that's a nice break from being traitors, terrorist-sympathizers and communists.
posted by empath at 9:40 AM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

"...in an announcement intended to knock down rumors by liberal bloggers that Palin faked her own pregnancy..."

Hey, y'all are famous! Way to go, a first paragraph mention too.

Jerks.
posted by damo at 9:42 AM on September 1, 2008

Well, that's a nice break from being traitors, terrorist-sympathizers and communists.

Yeah, I can only do that so many hours a day.
posted by lukemeister at 9:43 AM on September 1, 2008

Uhm, wtf is a PUMA, please?

Ditto for "VPILF." Color me clueless: until now I'd thought it must have meant "Vice President, In Like Flynn"...
posted by skyper at 9:43 AM on September 1, 2008

Oh and farther down:
"what one aide called "mud-slinging and lies" circulating on liberal blog sites. "

Man, sure showed them a lesson! Not just giving them sound bite fodder, nope, nuh-uh.

What high road? Did we miss the exit?
posted by damo at 9:45 AM on September 1, 2008

Again, we aren't the ones who put her kids out there as one of her qualifications to be VP, and how she's a great mom and a family woman. She did. She chose to put her children in the spotlight, knowing there was a scandal bubbling under the service.
posted by empath at 9:45 AM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

And you chose to wallow down in the muck, to dredge it out. Look you what you did to our nice white carpet!
posted by damo at 9:47 AM on September 1, 2008

What does, "some even with Barack Obama's name in them" mean?

It means, conveniently, that some comments about the crazy-baby-madness were posted on sites or blogs like barack-is-the-new-black.com or obamas-yo-momma.org or whatever. It's a disingenious way to link Obama to it, but one that should be expected.

What a fascinating weekend!
posted by rokusan at 9:47 AM on September 1, 2008

The Violet Blue story popped up on Memorial Day weekend, and now this on Labor Day weekend. I can't imagine what Thanksgiving Day will be like.
posted by lukemeister at 9:52 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

No Palin tag?
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 9:54 AM on September 1, 2008

Haven't you noticed that the folks who are obsessed with policing other people's morality are more likely than average to misstep themselves?

Well, they're projecting.

The baby weirdness is just... weird... and I still think there's something fishy there... somewhere. (What was with that eight hour flight, etc.) but as above I don't think it's what Dem types should be focusing on. Just leave Larry Flynt a message and move on to more substantial issues.

What really caught my interest here was Palin's devout image. Reflexively, this makes me suspect her of shenanigans, though I don't know what kind of shenanigans yet. Anyone who describes herself as having "eye-popping integrity" sets off my hypocrisy klaxons.

That is, I would not lend this person money.
posted by rokusan at 9:54 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Reuters: Palin Says Daughter is Pregnant

It just keeps coming with this person. I could make a comment about how all of this wouldn't be a big deal if it was all dealt with and put behind her months ago, which would have happened if McCain had seriously tried to vet her. She probably wouldn't have been picked, but even if she was we wouldn't be hearing all of this for the first time. Oh well.

The fact that this makes me giggle and titter means I'm a bad person. I accept that.

Hah, but it proves me right about the other baby! Bristol can't be the mother of Trig, if she's pregnant with another baby.

Still the fact that the first paragraph in a New York Times article (reprinted from Reuters) is this

ST. PAUL, Sept 1 (Reuters) - The 17-year-old daughter of Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin is pregnant, Palin said on Monday in an announcement intended to knock down rumors by liberal bloggers that Palin faked her own pregnancy to cover up for her child.

Has me laughing my ass off. It's like some bizarre parody.
posted by delmoi at 9:55 AM on September 1, 2008

rumors by liberal bloggers...
Hey, y'all are famous! Way to go, a first paragraph mention too.

Wait a minute... almost everyone here agreed that this wasn't something the Dems should be talking about.

But now we're supposed to feel to blame for this somehow? Now we're not supposed to even talk about talking about what other sites on the web are talking about?

WTF is MetaFilter for again?
posted by rokusan at 9:57 AM on September 1, 2008

Palin's Daughter is Pregnant
posted by mrzarquon at 9:59 AM on September 1, 2008

I mean, the media narrative on her is now going to be that she's a backwoods, white trash hillbilly. Her husband has a DUI, her brother-in-law tasered her step-son, her husband sits in on policy meetings, her teen daughter is knocked up.

McCain just destroyed the GOP. 48 state landslide on the way, folks. She's not going to last a month, and he's going to have to go with his back-up pick -- probably Pawlenty or Romney (Don't think that they aren't angling right now to push her out -- both of them are reported to be incredibly pissed off at being used by the campaign).
posted by empath at 10:00 AM on September 1, 2008

The Secretive Right-Wing Cabal That Met In Minneapolis To Vet Palin
posted by homunculus at 10:01 AM on September 1, 2008

Holy fuck, from Andrew Sullivan:

So that explains the wedding ring I spotted. From the Palin family ... Now all we need is confirmation from the obstetrician who delivered Sarah's baby, Trig.

And from another post

Now they've cleared the air on this - and good for them - what harm would it do to release the medical records showing that Sarah Palin delivered Trig on April 18 in Wasilla? This is not hard: there must be an obstetrician, medical records, and data that can easily refute this rumor. It is not out of the ordinary either: candidates routinely issue medical records. So let's have them. And then we can move on.

He can't give this crazy rumor up. What the hell would be the point in her faking a pregnancy at this point?
posted by delmoi at 10:02 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

I don't see any reason to buy that Sarah Palin faked her pregnancy. That's just goofy. But McCain knew? Wow. The anti-abortion voters I know (Hi, Mom) are also veeeery anti-pre-marital-sex. This isn't going to make her vote Democratic, but I think it'll keep some people home in disgust.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 10:02 AM on September 1, 2008

oh shit, thats me being stupid eh? guess I need some more coffee.
posted by mrzarquon at 10:02 AM on September 1, 2008

You don't have enough of a paranoid imagination delmoi-- maybe bristol is no longer pregnant, and they're planning on announcing a miscarriage next month, which would shut down any further press investigation of the trig birth. That's just off the top of my head.
posted by empath at 10:05 AM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

Wow, I'm going to enjoy the tap dancing the evangelicals do over this. And what a relief for her mother, who's going to be so busy campaigning for a while. I mean, her daughter's already pregnant, so what other kind of shenanigans could she get into?
posted by fuse theorem at 10:06 AM on September 1, 2008

I only wish this had come out later. Pre-convention, it's much smaller news if McCain decides to nominate someone else (after Palin "withdraws").
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 10:06 AM on September 1, 2008

Cabal?
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 10:07 AM on September 1, 2008

Further, they'll probably blame it on liberal bloggers and the Obama campaign causing stress. Not enough to claim that democrats love abortion, but they'll also say they can cause one through sheer force of will.

If you think that's too low for the Republicans, then you haven't been in this country for the past 8 years.
posted by empath at 10:07 AM on September 1, 2008

The NY Post screams:
"PALIN ADMITS HER 17-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER IS PREGNANT"
From the article:
""The despicable rumors that have been spread by liberal blogs, some even with Barack Obama's name in them, is a real anchor around the Democratic ticket, pulling them down in the mud in a way that certainly juxtaposes themselves against their 'campaign of change,'" a senior aide said."

I believe it's easy to see why people care about this story:

1. If the party in question had run their business in a less shady fashion, they wouldn't appear to have so much to hide, making any crazy possibility seem feasible.
2. If the party in question weren't so judgmental of others having made simple mistakes or even gross mistakes without solving their own issues first, they could more reasonably be offended.
3. If the party in question hadn't just spent more than two decades telling everyone else how to run their lives and spending the last 8 years (at minimum) making their wacky opinions into draconian, senseless, and frighteningly ignorant policies and laws, this would look less like something folks should bring up to prove they are human and, more importantly, that their policies and wacky opinions don't work in real life.
4. If the party in question had managed to keep their policies, platforms, and actions humane and aimed at ultimate civic responsibility...well, then maybe we'd be so busy solving real problems, crap like this wouldn't even be a blip on the radar.

People don't like hypocrites, liars, obfuscators, the greedy, and the power-mad...particularly when they have been trying to put people under a giant thumb for a while and some have already started to feel the pressure. Anything that makes a tormentor appear human because of a flaw in the tormentor's ability to live a life meeting their own requirements of others is more likely to stir up negative response than positive.

That said, no matter what I feel for the Oldster and his Harridan (or the Dreamer and his Censor), the young woman doesn't need any of those who disagree with her mother's policies, actions, or candidacy to judge her and we could show a lot of strength of character by giving her the kindness of privacy and understanding.

It won't happen, but an excellent outcome to come out of this (aside from a healthy baby born into a loving family) would be for Palin to re-think her opinions and beliefs a bit and soften towards the rest of the humanity and its right to live in a less polluted, resource-stripped world where liberty and privacy are respected even by our government.

I do wonder how her parents reacted when she told them, considering Gov. Palin's policy on pre-marital sex and keeping young people contained, but that's just a flight of fancy
posted by batmonkey at 10:08 AM on September 1, 2008 [5 favorites]

This should disqualify Palin from holding national office.

I mean, how can the people of our nation expect her to handle all of the deception and deceit required of a modern Republican VP when she can't even keep a knocked-up 17-year old under wraps?
posted by a young man in spats at 10:09 AM on September 1, 2008 [5 favorites]

leet hacking skillz
posted by Artw at 10:11 AM on September 1, 2008

delmoi,

Andrew Sullivan has the head cheerleader for the Iraq war before he was against it, so I don't think his judgment is the best. I wish I could remember his quote before the war about people who opposed it.
posted by lukemeister at 10:11 AM on September 1, 2008

I only wish this had come out later. Pre-convention, it's much smaller news if McCain decides to nominate someone else

But he'd look completely idiotic if he did that. Of course he looks pretty idiotic right now as well. But picking a VP and then dumping her makes you look completely unprepared to be president, which had been what McCain's entire campaign had been about.
posted by delmoi at 10:15 AM on September 1, 2008

Palin Says Daughter is Pregnant

SEX OUT OF WEDLOCK!!!!

No wonder my five-foot tall crucified Jesus statue was crying tears of blood this morning.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 10:15 AM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

um, was the head cheerleader
posted by lukemeister at 10:15 AM on September 1, 2008

I still think they'll have her enlisted-on-9/11 deployed-on-9/11 son end up dying in Iraq, while her daughter is appearing on the trail pregnant, and she can talk about both and she can try to endear herself to people.

They're going to go with something emotional, not mental. Something like fear, or empathy, or the like. Something that hits you and stays with people long enough that the republicans win.
posted by cashman at 10:16 AM on September 1, 2008

What's the age of consent in Alaska?
posted by ColdChef at 10:16 AM on September 1, 2008

The Alaska age of consent laws are unique. The age of consent in Alaska is 16. This is the age at which an individual may consent to have sex with someone over 18, legally, in Alaska. It applies both to heterosexual and homosexual acts.
posted by ColdChef at 10:19 AM on September 1, 2008

The age of consent is 16, provided the older partner is not in a position of authority.
posted by lukemeister at 10:20 AM on September 1, 2008

cashman- they should just cut out the middle man, and deploy her pregnant daughter to Iraq instead.
posted by mrzarquon at 10:20 AM on September 1, 2008

"what one aide called "mud-slinging and lies" circulating on liberal blog sites. "

This is kind of a strange way for McCain's people to characterize it.

Basically, they are saying, "Contrary to what the malicious, evil liberal bloggers have been saying, Bristol Palin was not pregnant then, she is pregnant now."

Their response to it is like saying, "Contrary to malicious, false reports that I beat my wife last year, the truth is that I beat her just last night."
posted by jayder at 10:23 AM on September 1, 2008 [6 favorites]

Sarah Palin: "I'd oppose abortion even if my daughter was raped."
posted by empath at 10:25 AM on September 1, 2008

As a conservative-leaning independent, I've been giving serious consideration to voting for Obama. But if it puts me on the same side as some of people posting here, I think I'd rather stay home.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 10:26 AM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

FFF: McCain was already going to win the south. Even if every Republican in the country votes for McCain, he still loses. He has to get democrats and independents, who are generally not backwoods hillbillies.
posted by empath at 10:26 AM on September 1, 2008

The McCain aide insisted a key point to keep in mind is that Bristol decided to keep the baby, a decision "supported by her parents.
Does anybody else find it odd that they insist that this is a decision? Decision implies choice, right?
posted by davar at 10:29 AM on September 1, 2008 [4 favorites]

I have to wonder if her announcement today isn't a prelude to her dropping out of the race to "spend more time with her family." It might be the smart play, although I still don't know who McCain could possibly tap to replace her.
posted by EarBucket at 10:30 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

rokusan: sorry I just didn't feel like typing out the names of each jerk poster individually. I assumed that people to whom the statement obviously didn't apply wouldn't get their panties in a bunch.
posted by damo at 10:31 AM on September 1, 2008

"Our beautiful daughter Bristol came to us with news that as parents we knew would make her grow up faster than we had ever planned. As Bristol faces the responsibilities of adulthood, she knows she has our unconditional love and support," the Palins said.

That's sweet. Does this mean she grew up so fast not to have the birds and bees talk? If "savin' it for marriage" is only way to go, how on earth could this happen? Right. God's will.

Look, I'm happy the daughter could talk to her parents about being pregnant and she didn't have to go to an abortionist like Obama to terminate the pregnancy. I'm glad governor and first dude didn't kick the little tramp out onto the street after learning she was knocked up. That's the way it should work.

But I'm not surprised because it happens all the time. Just not to governors that are VP candidates. This is also, had the rumors been true about Palin faking being pregnant to protect the honor of her virginal daughter, wouldn't surprise me. That is how families like the Pailins roll.

But it would have been better (and frankly better for the fundamentalist ideology) had Bristol remained a virgin like a "good girl". Or if she had to fuck tell the father to wear a condom. Then again, did these kids even know what condoms are? Are they like the kids I grew up with that got notes to be out of sex ed that thought if you did it standing up (or the first time, or in a hot tub or the millions of other myths), you couldn't get pregnant? Then again Bristol may have wanted to be pregnant considering her mom made it look so fun.

And yes, this is going to whip "the base" into even more excitement over Palin. The only thing that could make this better if McCain announces his daughter is pregnant and keeping her baby too. And that Karl Rove's old office in the West Wing will be made into a nursery.

Life Happens.
posted by birdherder at 10:33 AM on September 1, 2008

I guess if I've learned anything in this thread it's that I'm a Scots-Irish beer-swilling white-trash redneck Joe Sixpack fundy daydream believer after all. And damn proud of it besides.
posted by dawson at 10:34 AM on September 1, 2008

Frankly, I don't see having a pregnant 17 year old daughter as a detriment. So she's dealing with the same stuff every other family does (only, unlike the yuppies around here, she's not arm twisting her daughter into getting an abortion). Where's the negative?

And quit it with the "trailer-trash"es and "hillbilly talk". It's ignorant and prejudice and makes you look worse than anyone you're attempting to insult.
posted by small_ruminant at 10:35 AM on September 1, 2008 [11 favorites]

Fuzzy Skinner:
"But if it puts me on the same side as some of people posting here, I think I'd rather stay home."

Why? If you were voting for what's best for the country, why does it matter who it seems you're siding with on a website that leans dramatically toward sarcasm and questioning authority?
posted by batmonkey at 10:35 AM on September 1, 2008 [7 favorites]

1500!
posted by interrobang at 10:36 AM on September 1, 2008

Reuters: Palin Says Daughter is Pregnant

Well, what else is there to do in Alaska?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:36 AM on September 1, 2008 [7 favorites]

i'm glad to see you all supporting a woman's right to privacy in her own body unless, of course, her mother is running for vp

sept 1, 2008 - the day many metafilter liberals revealed themselves to be as nasty, hypocritical and overly concerned with other people's "morality" as their opponents - even to the point where some of them made stuff up
posted by pyramid termite at 10:38 AM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

leans dramatically toward sarcasm and questioning authority?

This particular thread is turning out to be less questioning authority and sarcasm, as it is about classism at its most disgusting, contempt for anyone with a different point of view, and unseemly prurient interest in the guise of "won't somebody please think of the country," which is a tactic historically associated with the right wing and reviled by the left.
posted by small_ruminant at 10:43 AM on September 1, 2008 [6 favorites]

pyramid termite:
You're ignoring many who are supporting the young woman's right to privacy in order to make an accusation of unfairness (which appears somewhat histrionic, I must say).

Also, libertarians are not liberals; independents are not liberals. Very few liberals are actually liberal, but that's a whole 'nother monkey.
posted by batmonkey at 10:43 AM on September 1, 2008

Does anybody else find it odd that they insist that this is a decision? Decision implies choice, right?

davar, no, I do not find it odd. Alaska does not have a parental consent law. Bristol could have had an abortion had she wanted one and been able to access a clinic*. She certainly had a choice, even if having an abortion is a choice she never would have made.

And, again, use of the term "choice" is a dog whistle to conservatives. Between the teen mom and Downs baby, these people are hitting the Right to Life trifecta. All we need to do is knock up Todd.

*I believe there are two clinics in all of Alaska - one in Anchorage and possibly one if Fairbanks. I'd be delighted to be wrong, though.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:44 AM on September 1, 2008

(Thank you, pyramid termite, for saying it better.)
posted by small_ruminant at 10:44 AM on September 1, 2008

I don't think there's anything wrong with the family at all. Shit happens. I didn't choose to put the family out in front of the country and stand them up as a qualification for the Vice Presidency. Politics ain't bean bag. If her family is a mess, and she knows fuck-all about foreign policy, and politicians in her own state say she's a lousy governor, and she's under investigation for corruption, why is she on the ticket again?
posted by empath at 10:45 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

i heart you small ruminant
posted by dawson at 10:46 AM on September 1, 2008

Sarah and Todd Palin: We're proud of Bristol's decision to have her baby

(emphasis mine)

You mean she had a choice?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:46 AM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

Not that it matters, now, in the scheme of things, but I'm not buying that McCain (or even Palin) knew about this ahead of the VP announcement. The rumor Palin is trying to rebut with this announcement has been going around for months, and she and her advisers had to know it was going to get play; why not settle it right away and put it all on the table to start with? Were they waiting to see if the hurricane was going to hit in hopes of blunting the effects of the story? And why would McCain go for her given that this story undermines his strategy for picking her in the first place?
posted by troybob at 10:46 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Ugh, seventeen years old and keeping the baby? This will appeal to the white trash wing of the party, no doubt.

Ironic. Obama's mother also got knocked up and then married at 18. Does that appeal to left wing trash maybe?

Dumb comment, Jaydar. Maybe you feel clever stereotyping poorer whites? No doubt.

And what makes some of you assume that the evangelicals will abandon the ticket in droves now that news of the daughter's pregnancy is out? They don't all necessarily react that way. I knew of a pastor's young unmarried daughter who got pregnant and this Brooklyn church (w/thousands of members) knew about it and helped---i.e., contributed money towards the baby, offered moral/emotional support. How dare they not stone her? Some of you haven't a clue.

The uglier this gets, the angrier/more protective the right will get ---and they will look for even more personal dirt on Obama/Biden. And you can't say shit as you took the low road on this crap.
posted by clon7 at 10:47 AM on September 1, 2008 [4 favorites]

In other words, the only people who actually could have made a decision to protect Bristol's privacy were her parents. If they cared that much about her, she should have turned down the vice-presidency.
posted by empath at 10:47 AM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

By putting a not ready for national politics Fundie into a sure-loss race, Karl gets to: further fuck over McCain, and demonstrate to any other potential maverick that mavericks get knee-capped; throw a sop to the Fundies; and keep the Fundies hating "the Libs" over the 2008 loss, rather than questioning what the Republicans are really doing for Fundie goals.

That's a nice theory, and I'd love to believe it was true that Rove and his ilk are sitting this one out, and are instead playing mind games with the Fundies, but I really, really doubt it. Their motivation is to protect their (business) interests, period. McCain is much more likely to do this than Obama. I find it really hard to believe that the likes of Karl Rove is dusting off his hands and saying, "Welp, we're going to lose this one, oh well, better luck in 2012." Does Rove really strike you as the type to roll over like that?

The Fundies were a huge factor in cinching the razor thin margins between Bush and Gore, then Kerry, and are pretty much the only group that can do the same for McCain. Rove and his minions on the McCain team want their vote. Badly. Hence the dog whistle "Obama is the Antichrist" ads, hence Palin. These are people who have consistently proven that they can and will do whatever it takes to win, time and time again, and as likely as it is, it is far from a foregone conclusion that Obama will win. Rove knows this, Team McCain knows this, and they're counting on the Fundies to make it happen, this November.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:48 AM on September 1, 2008

So how's that abstinence-only sex education working out for you there, Sarah?
posted by leftcoastbob at 10:48 AM on September 1, 2008 [4 favorites]

In an alternate universe, John McCain would be joking, right now, that the father of Bristol Obama's child is Janet Reno.
posted by Flunkie at 10:48 AM on September 1, 2008

McCain-Juneau turns McCain-Juno.
posted by phrontist at 10:49 AM on September 1, 2008

You're ignoring many who are supporting the young woman's right to privacy

by dragging her family through the gutter - what's next? - reaching out to middle america by calling them white trash and hillbillies?

oh, never mind, people have done that already ...
posted by pyramid termite at 10:49 AM on September 1, 2008

small_ruminant:
"it is about classism at its most disgusting, contempt for anyone with a different point of view, and unseemly prurient interest in the guise of "won't somebody please think of the country," which is a tactic historically associated with the right wing and reviled by the left."

On one hand, yes, there is definitely some hypocrisy going on here. But, as I said in a prior, lengthy comment, it's really very easy to see why.

People are imperfect and when people who have held themselves as being more perfect than the rest of the world are proven to be just like us in the most basic way possible, those who felt judged or fearful or unfairly restricted are going to produce a backlash.

Or, more simply: every action has an equal and opposite (although sometimes startlingly similar) reaction.

The same kind of thing gets pulled when it's the other party or supporters of said party. Do what the rest of us have to do and learn to ignore the venting and snark to find the core of truth and decency.
posted by batmonkey at 10:49 AM on September 1, 2008

that the father of Bristol Obama's child

Now wouldn't THAT be a delicious turn of events?
posted by empath at 10:50 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Two days ago, Palin's spokesperson didn't know Bristol was pregnant

But McCain did. After having met Palin once for fifteen minutes several months ago. And after having not done any basic vetting on her.

Uh huh.
posted by Flunkie at 10:53 AM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

As a 100% pro-Obama, pro-choice guy, I find the LOLhillbillies comments really tacky.
posted by lukemeister at 10:54 AM on September 1, 2008 [5 favorites]

I hated Juno when I saw it and now I fear I'll be living 4 years of it.
posted by mazola at 10:54 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

I must be an evil fuck too but, I am incredibly happy that Palin's daughter is pregnant. This completely neutralizes any blow back to Obama from people speculating about her faking the pregnancy. Because to the low information voters Palin was supposed to appeal to the rumors and the real story are essentially the same. They are now going to go searching through the internet to figure out the nuances. All they are going to hear is that Palin let her 17 year old daughter get knocked up, and that the held back on this information until they were forced to talk about it because of rumors on the internet.

Palin is the gift that keeps on giving. What's next connections to fringe separatists parties, black face at a costume party, moose sex to add to the moose burgers? Right now I wouldn't be surprised by anything.
posted by afu at 10:55 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

batmonkey said:
libertarians are not liberals;
independents are not liberals.
Very few liberals are actually liberal,
but that's a whole 'nother monke[eeeeeee]y <-- emphasis added

Off topic but if you sing that in a kind of sugary way, it sounds like the theme song for a wicked good sitcom.
posted by damo at 10:56 AM on September 1, 2008

Tinfoil hats on -

Here's an idea: what if the McCain VP team was in fact aware of Bristol's pregnancy and - from their underdog position - considered it a boon because of the punditry mess it would no doubt set in motion, allowing their side to be perceived as victims of a "vast left-wing conspiracy" fueled by the Sullivans and Kosbats of this world who just don't know when to drop an argument, thus producing an elaborate "reverse smear machine".

Cynical, I know.

Tinfoil hats off.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:57 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

I though Sullivan had some class about people's personal lives. Particularly after, when he was a gung-ho Bush supporter, leftist libs disclosed his very particular and specific sexual tastes along with corresponding 'dating' ads he had placed, incognito he assumed, on certain sites that allow people with fetish for only certain acts with a certain body type and race to 'interact'...
As I have stated on MeFi earlier in the year, Obama has my support and is the first pol I ever gave money too, but if he doesn't distance himself from this pronto and with obvious disgust I guess my admittedly worthless vote will be a write-in for Lieberman.
posted by dawson at 10:59 AM on September 1, 2008

Cillizza: Assessing the Political Impact of Bristol Palin's Pregnancy
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:59 AM on September 1, 2008

...and if you're looking for the next twist in this sordid tale, look to Juno II for a hint of what's to come.
posted by mazola at 10:59 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

small ruminant: Frankly, I don't see having a pregnant 17 year old daughter as a detriment. So she's dealing with the same stuff every other family does.

birdherder: And yes, this is going to whip "the base" into even more excitement over Palin. The only thing that could make this better if McCain announces his daughter is pregnant and keeping her baby too. And that Karl Rove's old office in the West Wing will be made into a nursery.

five fresh fish: The knocked-up teen daughter will be an overall win for Palin, not a detriment.

I agree with all these comments. The religious fundamentalist demographic, to whom the Palin pick is a blatant appeal, has a very tenuous hold on middle-class status, and these devout Christians have children and relatives who have babies out of wedlock, have brothers-in-law whose meth labs explode, husbands who get DUIs, and generally have very messy family lives. News of Palin's messy, white-trash family problems will appeal greatly to the segment of U.S. population that Palin was picked to appease, a population that finds it hard to relate to the charmed lives of former Harvard Law Review editors, etc.

The people who will be appalled by the out-of-wedlock child are the latte liberals like myself who see childbirth at 17 as an impediment to a young woman's higher academic career.
posted by jayder at 11:00 AM on September 1, 2008 [9 favorites]

Her husband has a DUI, her brother-in-law tasered her step-son, her husband sits in on policy meetings, her teen daughter is knocked up.

It sounds like the taser thing got brought up in the divorce proceedings (way later) just for sensationalism.

The rest of it- in what way is that the sole province of poor white? Do any of these things not happen to families of every socio-economic stripe? They do.

Of course, the more upper-middle you are, the more embarrassing it is and the less it gets out, especially if you're lucky and well connected.
posted by small_ruminant at 11:00 AM on September 1, 2008

Also, I emphatically agree about canning the "white trash" talk, and really any talk about reproductive organs. There are far, far too many working poor in this country who suffer due to this government's complete disregard for their struggles, too many women who die due to anti-choicers' hysterical concern for what women do with their own bodies, and the Democratic party I know is supposed to be on their side.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:01 AM on September 1, 2008 [4 favorites]

let's sum it up - by jumping at the first hint of a scandal regarding palin and her daughter, many people have managed to make it look like "liberal bloggers" were spreading lies and scandal sheet type rumors, mostly because they were

you've taken a sheer mediocrity and turned her into a martyr and victim of malicious persecution - you've taken what was a slight negative for her campaign and turned it into "those nasty lefties will say anything to hurt people"

way to go

do us all a favor now - just shut the fuck up before you blow this election for all of us

on preview - yes, goodnewsfortheinsane, that may be just what mccain and company were plotting and some have fallen for it like bums on baloney sandwiches
posted by pyramid termite at 11:01 AM on September 1, 2008 [8 favorites]

Palin's Daughter is Pregnant

what, again?
posted by quonsar at 11:02 AM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

Democrats, you just got trolled. And you're falling all over yourselves to feed the troll.
damn it
posted by enn at 11:02 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

small_ruminant: "Frankly, I don't see having a pregnant 17 year old daughter as a detriment. So she's dealing with the same stuff every other family does (only, unlike the yuppies around here, she's not arm twisting her daughter into getting an abortion). Where's the negative?

And quit it with the "trailer-trash"es and "hillbilly talk". It's ignorant and prejudice and makes you look worse than anyone you're attempting to insult."

Who's twisting anyone's arm to get an abortion? That's one of the most ignorant comments so far in the thread.

And, no, Bristol didn't make a choice. Making a choice would involve admitting alternatives, and there just doesn't seem to be any way that she had one.
posted by Dipsomaniac at 11:03 AM on September 1, 2008

She certainly had a choice
I understand that, in the legal sense. But I live in a country where abortion is legal. Abortion is just not a big issue here. And still, if someone who is pro life gets knocked up they do not emphasize that they decided to keep the baby, because not "keeping the baby" was just never an option. If you stress that this is a decision (and they did the same with Palin's "decision" to keep Trig), in my opinion you also accept that the outcome could be different, that other people might decide otherwise or that in another situation you might have decided otherwise. But this could be cultural/language differences, because I see gnifti (also Dutch) picked out the exact same thing.
posted by davar at 11:04 AM on September 1, 2008

Does anybody else find it odd that they insist that this is a decision? Decision implies choice, right?

EXACTLY EXACTLY EXACTLY jesus christ can we please make them deal with the hideous hypocrisy in this canonizing of Sarah and Bristol for "deciding" or "choosing" to keep their precious babies - IT IS NOT A CHOICE FOR THEM. God makes the choice, that's IT. Can these people not see the sheer and utter idiocy of praising them for something that they HAD NO HAND IN.

It's like praising me for my selfless decision to take a shit every day. God bless me!

Unless, of course, they want to acknowledge that they DID and SHOULD have a choice, in which case - carry on.
posted by tristeza at 11:04 AM on September 1, 2008 [7 favorites]

As a 100% pro-Obama, pro-choice guy, I find the LOLhillbillies comments really tacky.
I'm not sure if you are referring to my comment Lukem, but I was being totally rubber meets the road pure as the driven snow genuinely honest and serious with my statement.
posted by dawson at 11:05 AM on September 1, 2008

CNN: Todd Palin was arrested for DWI (a quarter century ago)
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:06 AM on September 1, 2008

Basically, they are saying, "Contrary to what the malicious, evil liberal bloggers have been saying, Bristol Palin was not pregnant then, she is pregnant now."

Right, cuz the malicious rumors had to do primarily with the idea that Palin's daughter might have gotten pregnant. Not that the candidate herself faked a pregnancy to cover it up.

Of course, the malice about Palin's daughter's pregnancy is coming out now (see examples above) but that has more to do with those posters' opinions than the opinion of McCain's spokesperson.
posted by torticat at 11:06 AM on September 1, 2008

Teen daughter of GOP VP pick is pregnant
posted by KokuRyu at 11:08 AM on September 1, 2008

do us all a favor now - just shut the fuck up before you blow this election for all of us

Oh come on, we're just rubber-necking at a carwreck at this point. It's a Jerry Springer episode. I don't think anybody is going to vote for McCain based on a what a bunch of random mefites are saying.
posted by empath at 11:11 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

I hope you are all so very, very, proud of yourselves here.

Meanwhile Palin just raised 10 million dollars for the campaign since Friday.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And, hey, since you all brought it up, sometimes unmarried teen daughters get pregnant. And just like my daughter, this girl is planning to marry the father. Imagine that. Taking responsibility for your actions. Taking responsibility for a new life.

And, if any of you reading this know Obama personally, tell him I said this: That baby is not a punishment. My grandson was not a punishment. Responsibility is not a dirty word-and neither my daughter's life or this girl's life is over or ruined. It will just look a little different.

And to those of you who would like to use this to say Palin should step down, I say just as soon as every other single politician with a teenager who gets pregnant, or gets drunk, or uses drugs, or gets caught doing SOMETHING that many of us adults also did when we were that age-as soon as THEY all step down, you have a leg to stand on.

If Obama is any kind of man at all, I expect that before the day is out he will make a statement telling his supporters to grow the heck up and leave this alone.

Let's see if they are men and women enough to do it.
posted by konolia at 11:11 AM on September 1, 2008 [5 favorites]

Hey guys, I heard Sarah Palin's daughter is pregnant and that her husband has a DWI on his record. Did I miss anything here?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:12 AM on September 1, 2008

dawson,
I wasn't responding to you.
*not beer-swillist*
posted by lukemeister at 11:14 AM on September 1, 2008

cool lukemeister, we are on the same page then. cheers.
posted by dawson at 11:16 AM on September 1, 2008

Hey, wait a minute. Weren't there other issues? Something about foreign policy or something?
posted by damo at 11:16 AM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

And, hey, since you all brought it up, sometimes unmarried teen daughters get pregnant. And just like my daughter, this girl is planning to marry the father. Imagine that. Taking responsibility for your actions.

And the really great thing is, she had a choice. Life in a democracy, instead of a theocracy. Imagine that.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:17 AM on September 1, 2008 [7 favorites]

Right, cuz the malicious rumors had to do primarily with the idea that Palin's daughter might have gotten pregnant. Not that the candidate herself faked a pregnancy to cover it up.

Realistically, how is Palin faking a pregnancy to protect her daughter really a malicious rumor? It made sense, given that she didn't reveal the pregnancy until very late, never showed (even the flight attendants who assisted her on the day she gave birth didn't notice she was pregnant), and her daughter was out of school for months coinciding with Palin's pregnancy. Yes, it's a crazy rumor, and highly improbable, but even if it were true, it would speak well for Palin's character, that she would go to such lengths to protect her daughter.

It would be like candy to the religious right, for her to say, "I sought to protect my daughter from the stigma and public attention that would result from being pregnant out of wedlock, due to being the daughter of a prominent public official, and in consultation with our daughter, my husband and I decided that we would raise the child as our own." Absolutely no shame in that, so I really don't buy this as a malicious rumor at all, just an attempt to figure out the life of this woman we just heard about for the first time four days ago.
posted by jayder at 11:20 AM on September 1, 2008

konolia,
I pretty sure that's something Obama already knows and believes. I'm not claming by any means that he's divine, but a bit like the carpenter from Galilee, Barak has some followers who twist the stomach of observers into bitter, angry knots, driving them away from the message of the man.
posted by dawson at 11:20 AM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

Who's twisting anyone's arm to get an abortion?

How many middle or upper class, college bound women do you know who had kids when they were teenagers? Do you think this is because they didn't get pregnant? No. Their parents had a kind and loving talk (if she was lucky) in which it was explained that having a baby would mean ruining her life, and her family's lives, and probably the life of the baby, since she wouldn't be able to support it very well, having lost her chance to get into a good college, and meet the right people. (What's more, what about all the good she'll be able to do in the world if she goes ahead and gets that law/medical degree? Think of the Peace Corp work she'd be able to do!) By staying pregnant, she'll have to go to alternative high school and she'll lose all of her friends and turn into one of those food stamps people. Of course, they have complete faith in her to make the right decision. She's a smart girl, (and it would be such a shame for all that to go to waste, by the way!) If, by some chance, she decides to go ahead and have an abortion, she can use their doctor. They'll cover the bill. No one ever even needs to know.
posted by small_ruminant at 11:20 AM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

I don't agree with her often, but konolia really nailed it with her last comment.
posted by milarepa at 11:21 AM on September 1, 2008

if any of you reading this know Obama personally, tell him I said this: That baby is not a punishment.

I don't know him personally, but has he said anything like this? As far as I know, he's been off giving speeches on trade policy, employment and hurricanes. Babies weren't mentioned. And I believe that he is publically anti-abortion and pro-choice, which a lot of people (including myself) are.
posted by jb at 11:23 AM on September 1, 2008

2) Abortion is my litmus test. If you don't pass that with me, I won't bother to look at anything else, period.
posted by konolia at 4:28 PM on August 31

Why didn't your Republican President and your Republican Congress and your conservative-majority Supreme Court make abortion illegal sometime during the last seven years?

What makes you think McCain - who has no real history of fighting against legal abortion - will somehow act when Bush, the Republican Congress, and the conservative court have failed to do so?

Do you not realize that the Republican party wants abortion to be legal? And do you not know why? The Republican party wants - needs - legal abortion so every four years they can get you to come out and vote for their candidate.

Because if it weren't for that single issue, you would vote for the party that fights for prenatal care for mothers, for better healthcare for children, and for tax cuts for the poor and middle-class.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 11:23 AM on September 1, 2008 [50 favorites]

> If Obama is any kind of man at all, I expect that before the day is out he will make a statement telling his supporters to grow the heck up and leave this alone.

Are you implying that in the past his actions have proven he is 'not this sort of man'? Or that in anyway he would associate with these rumors or actively try to spread them?

You seem to be thinking that these statements coming out of the dailykos and other such liberal blogs are equivalent to talking points issued by the barack campaign, when in the past they have shown really no such overlap. It would be like claiming that McCain's ad's are being written by the people at Little Green Footballs.
posted by mrzarquon at 11:23 AM on September 1, 2008

Wow, small_ruminant, your 'twisting arms' seems to consist mostly of shitty scenarios in your head. It's not unreasonable for others to ask you to keep them there instead of using them to paint everyone else with.
posted by Dipsomaniac at 11:25 AM on September 1, 2008

Yes, providing young pregnant women with an accurate picture of the future should they carry the child to term is a terrible thing to do. Their parents should tell them that it's sunshine and lollipops to be a teenage mother, so that they can choose without bias.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:26 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

also this thread has been filled with people of all political stripes denouncing all of the rumours/stories about the personal lives of a candidate's family as distasteful and irrelevant.
posted by jb at 11:26 AM on September 1, 2008

The initial post on Daily Kos was by someone who had never posted a diary before. It's just as likely that it was posted by a Romney or Pawlenty operative as it was by a democratic operative.
posted by empath at 11:26 AM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

dawson: I'm not claming by any means that he's divine, but a bit like the carpenter from Galilee [...]

Let's not do this.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:27 AM on September 1, 2008

As a conservative-leaning independent, I've been giving serious consideration to voting for Obama. But if it puts me on the same side as some of people posting here, I think I'd rather stay home.

What a marvelous, thoughtful way to decide something as important as your vote. Extrapolate that a few dozen posters on a snarky left-leaning website = an entire segment of the population being personally objectionable to you, and make the choice that will make them mad and make you appear to be above them!

Between nonsense like that and the spectacle of PUMAs having tantrums in the streets, it's pretty clear that November should just be renamed PettyGrudgeMonth.

Let's see if they are men and women enough to do it.

Hey, konolia, I missed the part where you showed you were woman enough to tell your fitness instructor that Obama is most certainly not a communist or a Muslim or a terrorist or any of the other claims you know to be false. Could you point me to it?
posted by scody at 11:27 AM on September 1, 2008 [32 favorites]

i'm glad to see you all supporting a woman's right to privacy in her own body unless, of course, her mother is running for vp

no, what I see is people enjoying the trainwreck of hypocrisy of moralistic politicians who slam sex education, condoms, and praise "abstinence" for cynical political gain while they don't realize that their daughters are fucking around without protection exposing their bodies to disease and unwanted pregnancies.

also, marrying your boyfriend at 17 because he knocked you up must not be the most mature and serene decision ever when it comes to choosing your life partner, and actually is very often conductive to divorce

but please keep blaming the libruls for being "mean" (unlike the nice Republicans who in perfect Dixie fashion have based their campaign on the idea that the Negro candidate is NOT AMERICAN) -- only, when McCain/Palin's SCOTUS appointments reverse Roe v Wade and women start dying because of botched, unsafe illegal abortions, their blood is not going to be on the hands of the people who voted for Obama
posted by matteo at 11:27 AM on September 1, 2008 [9 favorites]

Well, I've already admitted I can do little but gaze in wide wonder at American electoral politics, but it seems to me that if in fact the Obama campaign's success is predicated on his ability to enforce message discipline on thousands of random supporters posting on the internet - or on his ability to "distance" himself from such gossip - then he didn't stand a chance anyway.

Fortunately, I'm reasonably certain that distasteful snark in the blogosphere (whether here or even on DailyKos) has nowhere near that kind of influence on the broad mainstream of the American electorate. If it did, then I'd wager a clear majority of Americans would have understood that the Iraqi government had no connection whatsoever to the 9/11 terrorist attacks - information, after all, which was spread abundantly across the left side of the blogosphere circa late 2002. Just to cite one example.

I mean, consider the opposite argument, which would suggest that on Nov 5, we will see like a Times lead story noting that John McCain's resounding victory was in some significant way a result of a large shift his way from swing voters who were driven from Obama by malicious gossip on leftwing blogs. "There was really no rebounding after obamaniac25's idle speculation about Sarah Palin's kids in the comments section of DailyKos on August 31," said an Obama spokesman. "The lesson for future Democratic candidates is to respond sharply and decisively every time a supporter says something unpleasant on the internet."

I mean, that could happen, right?
posted by gompa at 11:27 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

He's not even radical compared to other members of the Democratic Party

Is the often cited "most liberal" ranking (http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/?loc=interstitialskip) wrong/skewed/misleading in some way?

(intended as a serious non-snarky question)
posted by Perplexity at 11:28 AM on September 1, 2008

What Michelle Malkin had to say about Obama's statement.
posted by konolia at 11:29 AM on September 1, 2008

Dipsomaniac, this is the way of my people. I know of what I speak.
posted by small_ruminant at 11:29 AM on September 1, 2008

Weren't there other issues? Something about foreign policy or something?

The 'family values' angle was the way the Republicans were trying to sell Palin. They can hardly complain that the discussion of her is being kept in that superficial realm. At this point the PR guys are probably thinking a discussion of her lack of experience might be an advantage.

And to those of you who would like to use this to say Palin should step down...

Maybe you're not reading the comments here. Nobody wants Palin to step down; she's the biggest gift the Republicans have handed the Democrats all year. And the criticism of Palin here is less that her daughter is pregnant and more that the situation (and how Palin and the party have handled it) exposes a whole host of hypocrisies within the party and this campaign.
posted by troybob at 11:29 AM on September 1, 2008

Well, konolia, the classic anti-abortion position DOES bear a marked resemblance to a punishment. Perhaps that's something for that side of the question to examine for themselves.
posted by Dipsomaniac at 11:30 AM on September 1, 2008

this thread has now entered the Elizabethan Age. Maybe it will come up to date before it's done.
posted by jb at 11:31 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Look, the Republicans are trying to shift the election narrative away from the serious issues of our country (hello, healthcare), and towards these visceral emotional issues that always get people to vote Republican (religion, guns, abortion, gays, etc.) They are all too aware that if they can get these emotional issues to be the center of the discussion, they've already won. This is the same thing that went on 4 years ago, and the same thing that always happens (remember how people were shocked that the 2004 election was about "values" and not Iraq? Don't be shocked again this time.) Not only are they succeeding with wild colors, but liberals seem to be playing right into their hands on this strategy, as always. Listen: ignore the abortion stuff and STICK TO THE MESSAGE: failed war, wrecked economy, and everything else Bush has destroyed in the past 8 years. Otherwise, this election is lost.
posted by naju at 11:33 AM on September 1, 2008 [10 favorites]

I agree with all these comments. The religious fundamentalist demographic, to whom the Palin pick is a blatant appeal, has a very tenuous hold on middle-class status, and these devout Christians have children and relatives who have babies out of wedlock, have brothers-in-law whose meth labs explode, husbands who get DUIs, and generally have very messy family lives. News of Palin's messy, white-trash family problems will appeal greatly to the segment of U.S. population that Palin was picked to appease, a population that finds it hard to relate to the charmed lives of former Harvard Law Review editors, etc.

The people who will be appalled by the out-of-wedlock child are the latte liberals like myself who see childbirth at 17 as an impediment to a young woman's higher academic career.

Yeah, because Latte liberals love to push abstinence only education, uh huh.

Anyway Obama is polling ahead of McCain among low wage workers, and it is not anywhere near true that most fundamentalists are low wage.

It's like any of this matters to you, because for some reason you insist on wearing a hair shirt and trying to spin any news whatsoever as WONDERFUL NEW FOR MCAIN.
posted by afu at 11:33 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

> If, by some chance, she decides to go ahead and have an abortion, she can use their doctor. They'll cover the bill. No one ever even needs to know.

The only moral abortion is my abortion

Pro Life people have abortions also, but only the ones who are able to afford to pay for it privately. That is the irony / hypocrisy of the situation. There will always be choice for the elites, be they democrat or republican. But we can't allow public funding and dissemination of information for the rabble as we want to push our moral agenda on them.

I went to a private middle school that had our sex ed class taught by our biology teacher, with science and everything. Then I went to public highschool were the course material was laughable and taught by our gym teacher reading off of premade cards. The middle school had a much larger republican and pro life base than the highschool, but they were still teaching that (and real science) because it was considered a better education for us the students. But those same parents who were paying for their kids to go the private school were the ones voting against programs that would provide the same level of sex education to the public school.
posted by mrzarquon at 11:34 AM on September 1, 2008 [5 favorites]

And as long as we're talking about responsibility and reproductive freedom, teaching abstinence-only sex ed is irresponsible. Exhibit A is the pregnant 17-year-old.

Also, if Sarah Palin were truly concerned about her daughter's privacy, she wouldn't have agreed to be John McCain's running mate. Her 17-year-old daughter's pregnancy is on CNN, for heaven's sake! Did she think that it would be kept under wraps?
posted by leftcoastbob at 11:35 AM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

Agreed that the white trash/hillbilly comments are way out of line. HOWEVER, I can't understand the criticism of MeFites for discussing Palin's babymaking. That is the ONLY reason Palin is on the ticket. Look back at comments by konolia and others about why this pick energized the Christian right, or the draft Palin website, etc.

Palin is a hero precisely because she kept a special needs baby at 44. Period. They have planned from minute 1 to use emotional stories about Trig and the son going to war in this campaign. But we're somehow wrong to discuss it? Blog speculation will destroy Obama's candidacy? What, just like Obama = Muslim/killing Vincent Foster rumors destroyed Republican candidates?
posted by msalt at 11:36 AM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

damo:
I would totally watch that sitcom.

Maybe that's what we need - a Three's Company-meets-Benson-meets-Soaptype of joint with all kinds of (political) hijinks so we can all work out these mismatched opinions on how it should all be done (ran, led)...harmlessly.
posted by batmonkey at 11:38 AM on September 1, 2008

This is what Obama himself said:

"Look, I got two daughters — 9 years old and 6 years old,” he said. “I am going to teach them first about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby..."
posted by konolia at 2:27 PM on September 1 [+] [!]

Thank you, I stand corrected. I don't believe that he meant literally that babies were a punishment, but that early and unplanned parenthood is a serious burden. And it is - I know, because my mother got pregnant at sixteen. She wanted her child (my brother), but it wasn't easy and has changed her life significantly.

But my husband would like to chip in, "Obama's comment was stupid and genuinely offensive," and that if he meant anything else he should have said that.
posted by jb at 11:39 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Funny how it's Palin who lied about her daughter having mono to pull her out of school, so that she wouldn't shame the family by having an out-of-wedlock child...and now it's all the liberal bloggers' fault!

Seriously, it's no wonder we keep losing elections - it's because we can't spin our way out of a wet paper bag. A governor bullies her daughter into hiding, lies to her whole state and probably McCain, gets caught, and we can't even spin this the right way ON FUCKING METAFILTER!?!
posted by a young man in spats at 11:39 AM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

Now let's look at that Obama quote, with context!

When it comes specifically to HIV/AIDS, the most important prevention is education, which should include -- which should include abstinence education and teaching the children -- teaching children, you know, that sex is not something casual. But it should also include -- it should also include other, you know, information about contraception because, look, I've got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby. I don't want them punished with an STD at the age of 16. You know, so it doesn't make sense to not give them information.

Although the wording is clumsy, what he's saying here is that it's important that people make informed decisions. This should be clear to anyone. Pulling part of a sentence out of context to make it seem as though Obama believes children are a punishment is crass and ludicrous.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:40 AM on September 1, 2008 [26 favorites]

you've taken a sheer mediocrity and turned her into a martyr and victim of malicious persecution - you've taken what was a slight negative for her campaign and turned it into "those nasty lefties will say anything to hurt people"

I'm pretty sure this was going to happen anyway. The target demo for Palin tend not to read lefty blog echo chambers. By preemptively disclosing the daughter is pregnant before it actually made it into the press (has it? and by press I don't mean dailyKOS, huffpo or this site, or even the cable news nets... I mean the local town papers, etc that today gave huge amounts of ink to the hurricane) gives them the opportunity to demonize the left -- and specifically Obama because his name is mentioned in these blog posts -- and appeal to the sympathy of the same base that is jacked up about Palin in the first place.

So now the McCain/Palin campaign get to dispel the rumor (which wasn't going anywhere anyway) and add a lump of sugar to the already sweet Sarah Palin story. Not only is her daughter going to keep the baby, she's going to marry the young man.

Marriage is important and is a sacred bond between a man and a woman. It isn't like the hockey mom or first dude is pointing a shotgun at the father of the child. These kids love each other and will have their baby.

I wish I didn't know that the daughter was pregnant. I learned that from a press release from the McCain/Palin campaign. Had there not been so many bizarre circumstances of Palin's pregnancy for the lefties to go after like sharks go after chum, this little family secret could have remained that way until after the election.

Regarding, Bristol's 'choice' of keeping the baby. Abortion is legal in the US and she didn't need her parents' permission in Alaska should she decide to do that. But when your mom if the state's poster girl for the anti-choice movement and during the gubernatorial campaign said she wouldn't OK an abortion in the case of rape or incest, Bristol's hands are tied. Although I'm sure every safeguard would be made to keep an abortion completely private, had that leaked to the press that a Feminist for Life member and up and comer in the anti-choice movement had a kid who had an abortion? No, she didn't have a choice after not following her abstinence only training.
posted by birdherder at 11:41 AM on September 1, 2008

So Obama compares an infant human being to an STD. I am so IMPRESSED.
posted by konolia at 11:42 AM on September 1, 2008

If Obama is any kind of man at all, I expect that before the day is out he will make a statement telling his supporters to grow the heck up and leave this alone.

And this shows exactly why it was a horrible idea for people to drag out this rumor in the first place. Obama, who I'm sure wants nothing to do with it, is now assumed to tacitly approve of this trash unless he issues a statement about it. Of course, if he issues a statement, he'll be accused of fanning the flames by talking about it at all. Basically a no-win situation.

Why are the Democrats so good at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory?
posted by klausness at 11:42 AM on September 1, 2008

You know why else this is a win for McCain? (Apart from the fact that far too many of you are falling over yourselves to alienate potential Obama voters by acting like exactly the sort of sneering, patronising elitists the right like to stereotype you as, I mean.)

Remember this deft little non-confrontational line from Obama's acceptance speech?

"We may not agree on abortion, but surely we can agree on reducing the number of unwanted pregnancies in this country."

Can't use that angle now. Because then it's a vicious personal attack on a hard working mother that is very much not Change We Can Believe In.
posted by flashboy at 11:45 AM on September 1, 2008

konolia: The AIDS/STD aspects of the quote do add a lot of context to the statement, and it was dishonest to leave to leave that out.
posted by troybob at 11:46 AM on September 1, 2008 [7 favorites]

And, hey, since you all brought it up, sometimes unmarried teen daughters get pregnant. And just like my daughter, this girl is planning to marry the father. Imagine that. Taking responsibility for your actions.

Only among the chronically poor does "taking responsibility" automatically imply something other than self-payment of choices.
posted by Brian B. at 11:46 AM on September 1, 2008

> So Obama compares an infant human being to an STD. I am so IMPRESSED.

Actually, he is listing the consequences of poor sexual education, which include teenage pregnancy and increased risk of stds.

I am sorry, but to equate two things which are the related by their cause is not to make them equal. It would be the same as saying that getting poor fuel mileage in your car from under inflated tires is the same as your engine seizing up because you never change the oil, because in both cases you didn't learn how to take care of your car.
posted by mrzarquon at 11:47 AM on September 1, 2008 [8 favorites]

Obama knows how to handle this situation. Just look at this headline. Look at it! THIS is how you do it. A martini and a charming laugh, a noncommittal shrug and an aloof gaze; Class is IN ladies and gentlemen, take notes.
posted by damo at 11:47 AM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

Bristol Palin made the decision on her own to keep the baby, McCain aides said.

Not to step into the whole abortion debate, but can't "keep" mean 'not give up for adoption', instead of 'not abort'? It would make a fair bit more sense, given Palin/McCain's platform.
posted by Orange Pamplemousse at 11:48 AM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

perplexity:

Is the often cited "most liberal" ranking (http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/?loc=interstitialskip) wrong/skewed/misleading in some way?

(intended as a serious non-snarky question)

Yes, very much so.

It's based on the claim of one magazine, which ranked him "most liberal senator". That magazine is extremist right wing.

Guess who the same magazine ranked most liberal senators in 2004? I'll give you a hint: He was running for President.

It's just absurd propaganda, to rile conservatives up and to put off moderates. As uber-conservative Pat Buchanan himself said, "Barney Frank should be suing over this."
posted by Flunkie at 11:50 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

It's not the pregnancy. It's the hypocrisy.

The Republicans and many of their voters set themselves up as the last moral guardians of an America ready to fall into the abyss of licentiousness and permissiveness. A world where Gilded Liberals bestow welfare on Black New York City mothers with 9 children from 9 different fathers who are abusing the state and riping off hard workin' Joe Six Pack.

The reality is that the states which trend democratic have the lowest rates of teen-pregnancy (and lower rates of abortion, although the stats on that are muddy), contribute more in tax dollars then they get back in welfare, and generally have more family cohesion, lower divorce rates, less alcohol and drug abuse, etc. etc.

But meanwhile in the churches and in the elections we see people screaming about how the liberals have brought moral decrepitude to America. They oppose sex education, contraception, drug treatment, welfare and other programs that actually have their roots in earlier Christian values of tolerance, respect, and compassion.

Again, it's not the pregnancy. We all know these things happen. It's the hypocrisy of someone who wants to legislate morality instead of compassion and is unable to instill values in their own family, let alone the rest of the country.
posted by cell divide at 11:51 AM on September 1, 2008 [12 favorites]

Not to step into the whole abortion debate, but can't "keep" mean 'not give up for adoption', instead of 'not abort'?

Cultural context. Keeping the baby would refer to adoption in pretty much the same way getting a blow job would refer to appointment with my hairdresser.
posted by troybob at 11:51 AM on September 1, 2008 [4 favorites]

This is what Obama himself said:
"Look, I got two daughters — 9 years old and 6 years old,” he said. “I am going to teach them first about values and morals, but if they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby..."

Konolia, do you honestly think that a father of two considers children a punishment? Really?

Or was he merely speaking realistically in that getting pregnant as teenager can seriously wreck a person's life in this day and age, especially if they don't have support system.

On preview:
Statement from Obama:

Excellent statement, he nailed it.

Now lets move on Palin's qualifications or lack there and McCain's irresponsibility in picking someone so unqualified.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:53 AM on September 1, 2008 [4 favorites]

The McCain camp: "Vetting? Yeah, we've heard of it."
posted by grouse at 11:55 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Okay, Andrew Sullivan's last post on this was a bridge too far, even for me. Ugh.
posted by empath at 11:56 AM on September 1, 2008

"I have said before and I will repeat again: People's families are off limits," Obama said. "And people's chidlren are especially off limits. This shouldn't be part of politics. It has no relevance to Gov. Palin's performance as a governor and or her potential perfromance as a vice president. So I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories. You know my mother had me when she was 18 and how a family deals with issues and teenage children, that shouldn’t be a topic of our politics. [...]Our people were not involved in any way in this, and they will not be. And if i thought there was somebody in my campaign who was invovled in something like, they that would be fired."

Man enough for you, konolia? Or should we hold our breath till you parse his statement whereby merely saying "strongly urge" rather than, say, "urge in the strongest possible terms" proves he isn't really denouncing the rumors at all?

Also, just curious: do you think McCain's "man enough" to state publicly he'd fire anyone involved in spreading false rumors about Obama's family?
posted by scody at 11:58 AM on September 1, 2008 [20 favorites]

The McCain camp: "Vetting? Yeah, we've heard of it."

"...it's when you take your cat to the vet! NEXT QUESTION."
posted by scody at 11:59 AM on September 1, 2008 [4 favorites]

it was dishonest to leave to leave that out.

Color me shocked.
posted by maxwelton at 11:59 AM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

scody: "Close? Biden's got 13 points on her, with only 5% not choosing either of them. That's not close; that's a landslide."

orthogonality: "In voting terms, 54-41is no where near close. It's a commanding lead just short of a landslide."

Really? I wouldn't think so. I mean, many of the Democratic primaries were decided 60-40 or 70-30, and that was between two candidates that were largely similar in policies and appeal. I'd hope that a contest as lopsided as Palin-Biden would be similarly lopsided in outcome, a rebuke to the GOP for ever running such a terrible candidate. But instead Palin, who is painfully unqualified, gets just nine points short of half the country to support her over Biden?

Maybe we're just so used to electorates of millions of voters split down to razor-thin margins year after year that a 13-point spread seems incredibly decisive in comparison. It troubles me, though.
posted by Rhaomi at 11:59 AM on September 1, 2008

Obama: "I don’t want them punished with a baby..."

What a nasty worldview: Babies are the enemy. But I guess this mindset is required in order to justify the killing of unborn life.
posted by jsonic at 12:00 PM on September 1, 2008

Man enough for you, konolia

Absolutely.

I should have worded that post a little differently-I really did expect that Obama would make the statement he did-as I just mentioned to Jessica on Memail, I honestly do think Obama is a classy guy overall, and I certainly do not believe he is the type of person who would want his supporters involved in these personal attacks on a family member.
posted by konolia at 12:02 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

It means that we've been giving Rove and his buddies great material to smear Obama with. Congratulations all around.

Utter bullshit. Rove and the Republican machine would have invented culpability on Obama's behalf, either way.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:02 PM on September 1, 2008

konolia's version of Obama's statement:

"...children...if I thought there was somebody in my campaign who was involved in something like, they that would be fired.
posted by troybob at 12:03 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Love that last comment by Cell Divide.

It is Republicans, not Democrats, who have viewed controlling what people may and may not do with their reproductive systems as a suitable matter for public policy, debate, and legislation. And it is the same political group that has sought to control what can be disclosed to teens about birth control. When someone jumps on that bandwagon, it is not hard to see that their reproductive choices, as well as those of their families, will be a subject for our discussion in evaluating them as candidates for office. They are presenting their policies as viable ways for families to live, so one would think they would be good examples of how those policies work in practice.

Now that Palin's daughter got knocked up out of wedlock, it is natural to wonder whether she sincerely supports abstinence-only education, or whether she's just a damned hypocrite.
posted by jayder at 12:03 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

What a nasty worldview: Babies are the enemy. But I guess this mindset is required in order to justify the killing of unborn life.

All right. That cinches it. jsconic is a robot programmed with only one phrase. We have to play one of those Star Trek games to get him to short circuit, or he'll destroy the Enterprise.
posted by Astro Zombie at 12:04 PM on September 1, 2008 [11 favorites]

Reposted for Konolia, so that she won't miss it, and she can make her statement of approval clear.

"I have said before and I will repeat again: People's families are off limits," Obama said. "And people's chidlren are especially off limits. This shouldn't be part of politics. It has no relevance to Gov. Palin's performance as a governor and or her potential perfromance as a vice president. So I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories. You know my mother had me when she was 18 and how a family deals with issues and teenage children, that shouldn’t be a topic of our politics."

On charges that his campaign has stoked the story via liberal blogs:

"I am offended by that statement. There is no evidence at all that any of this involved us," he said. "Our people were not involved in any way in this, and they will not be. And if i thought there was somebody in my campaign who was invovled in something like, they that would be fired."
posted by cashman at 12:04 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

In other news, sci-fi fans weigh in.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:04 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Obama: "I don’t want them punished with a baby..."

What a nasty worldview: Babies are the enemy. But I guess this mindset is required in order to justify the killing of unborn life.

So why do you want to punish people with babies?
posted by Brian B. at 12:08 PM on September 1, 2008

Cashman, check your preview. ;-)
posted by konolia at 12:08 PM on September 1, 2008

What a nasty worldview: Babies are the enemy. But I guess this mindset is required in order to justify the killing of unborn life.

It's official: You are an idiot, in addition to hating women.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 12:08 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Further, they'll probably blame it on liberal bloggers

My initial read on this was that they would probably blame the pregnancy on liberal bloggers! Sperm traveling through the inter tubes!

These last few days have brought me tears of hysterical laughter as well as tears of despair. There is a very real possibility that we could have a president who knows less about her country than every naturalized citizen. I don't think we have yet discovered the abysmal depths of her ignorance. I can't help but think that she knows so little because she was too busy walking around in high heels and a bathing suit begging people to judge the size of her thighs and the shape of her bottom. That, and the idea that she supports the Alaska for Nationhood movement while being against birth control, makes her a very strange choice to represent the people.

I will say that blaming people for being interested in someone's personal life when they are running for office is ridiculous. The fact is, there are those who will want to know what her favorite cookie recipe is, some will want to know if she drinks, and other people will feel the need to research all her ancestors. Whatever color your politics, human interest stories are...interesting. And speculation here on Metafilter isn't going to change the mind of anyone with an ounce of sense when it comes time to actually vote.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 12:13 PM on September 1, 2008

konolia, thanks. And now I ask just one favor: tell your fitness instructor that you yourself do know a Marxist (ahem), and she says definitively that Obama ain't one.
posted by scody at 12:15 PM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

posted by konolia at 11:42 AM on September 1

Since you're here, why not answer my question?
posted by Optimus Chyme at 12:16 PM on September 1, 2008

Further, they'll probably blame it on liberal bloggers

My initial read on this was that they would probably blame the pregnancy on liberal bloggers! Sperm traveling through the inter tubes!

I'll go you one better. I'm so bleary from sorting through all this that I thought her pregnancy was being blamed on liberal loggers!
posted by leftcoastbob at 12:18 PM on September 1, 2008

Konolia, jsonic, please look at the plain meaning of what Obama said , including the first half of the quote that you keep editing out.

The most important prevention is education…which should include abstinence education and teaching the children…that sex is not something casual. But it should also include…information about contraception because…if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby.

He's talking about contraception, not abortion. Teaching people to use contraception reduces the need for abortion. This is a good thing, right? Which part of this do you disagree with?
posted by designbot at 12:18 PM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

no, what I see is people enjoying the trainwreck of hypocrisy of moralistic politicians

as opposed to the trainwreck of hypocrisy of moralistic "woman's right to privacy" advocates not only mouthing off about a 17 year old woman's pregnancy but insinuating that her mother a) pretended to be pregnant with a down's syndrome kid that actually belonged to her daughter or b) insisting that her mother was flying all around the country as some kind of "friendly skies" alternative to an abortion clinic?

really?

but please keep blaming the libruls for being "mean"

you forgot stupid, venal, slanderous, obnoxious and shameless

you're for or against decency in politics and in life - and no red herring accusations of hypocrisy can save you from the perception that this is sheer guttersnipe mud-slinging that you're committing here

if this is what the culture wars are coming to, then i say to hell with both sides, because we don't have a decent culture thanks to you
posted by pyramid termite at 12:20 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

...I thought her pregnancy was being blamed on liberal loggers!

Little would surprise me at this point.
posted by troybob at 12:20 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

So Obama compares an infant human being to an STD. I am so IMPRESSED.

Just for clarity: in light of him speaking about abstinence-only sex education, this obviously means that he believes comprehensive sex education prevents things like unwanted pregnancy and STDs and the punishment is referring to the debilitating problems that can arise from them.
posted by effwerd at 12:22 PM on September 1, 2008

He's talking about contraception, not abortion. Teaching people to use contraception reduces the need for abortion. This is a good thing, right? Which part of this do you disagree with?

I find it even more peculiar that his recommending abstinence eduation would be ignored. But I guess in the mad pursuit of the cherry-picked, out of context damnation, details like this are glossed over briefly, unregistered. Comrade Obama bin Laden hates children, and hates America.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:22 PM on September 1, 2008

Puh-leeze with the generalized blame to "you all" "liberal bloggers." A handful of people here have been commenting gleefully on the whole pregnancy issue, with an equal or greater number saying "leave it alone."

While I bemoan the tendency, people are people and in the absence of information, there will be speculation and gossip. This was not something that began with liberal bloggers but something that has been swirling around locally in Alaska and first surfaced from local commentary. Second, let's not forget that although much of the speculation has proven specious, this whole matter has not been something totally fabricated from thin air but something based in fact: the Palin girl is indeed pregnant. In accepting the nomination, her Mom full well knew that this family matter was something that would be in the public realm at some point and that it would be hurtful.

Furthermore, along the lines of birdherder's suggestion, I am cynical enough to think that shrewd rovian disinformation operatives probably began the more extreme rumors careening through the blogosphere as a way to get the uncomfortable news out and create a sympathetic backlash against liberals. They have proven masterful about launching large scale spins that turn positives into negatives and negatives into positives so it is not inconceivable that they did so in this case too.

I am still flummoxed by the whole Palin thing. Hard to see how the republicans let this happen. Did they fall for their own disinformation campaign, actually believing there are 18 million Hillary disaffecteds who are up for grabs and it would be a simple as flashing a pair of boobs to secure their votes? Hah, that would be too delicious.

I think the power brokers just played their trump card too soon - their desperation to hang on to power threw their timing off. It's immaterial to them if Palin has no substance, since they are the ones that pull the strings, they just need a dummy with a charismatic public persona to be the front man a la Reagan. If they had left her in place for a few more years propping up her resume and insinuating her strategically in the national dialogue, she might have one day been formidable conservative candidate ... but by thrusting her on the national stage prematurely, they have likely overreached and spoiled her chances for good. One can only hope.

But I don't fully count her out yet. Or McCain. Giant corporate interests have grown fat while greedily stuffing their pockets these last eight years and they are not going to release their grip on power without a ferocious fight. While McCain may not be their top choice, he is their best hope. I am surprised by some who feel confident of victory. Like Charlie Brown and the football, liberals keep lining up for the kick and being amazed and hurt when we find ourselves bruised on the ground. In electoral politics it comes down to swing states, where the stupid has proven thick. In truth, the stupid has run distressingly thick throughout the nation, and that's without even factoring in wild cards like racism. I am not defeatist, but by the same token I am not going to feel secure until there is a stake through the heart of the republican party - and probably not even then.
posted by madamjujujive at 12:25 PM on September 1, 2008 [20 favorites]

if this is what the culture wars are coming to, then i say to hell with both sides, because we don't have a decent culture thanks to you

In other words, this is why we can't have nice things.
posted by jayder at 12:26 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Re:
I do wonder how her parents reacted when she told them -- batmonkey

Well, based on this info...

On April 20, 1989 – less than eight months after they eloped – their first son, Track, was born. -- posted by ericb

...How about, "Been there, done that"?
posted by skyper at 12:27 PM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

Also, just curious: do you think McCain's "man enough" to state publicly he'd fire anyone involved in spreading false rumors about Obama's family?

McCain or his staff would never do that, so that doesn't make sense. And even if it looked like he or a staffer had done it, we know it must have been those wily Syrians at it again.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:27 PM on September 1, 2008

"you're for or against decency in politics and in life"

Whose decency is that, then? Yours?
posted by Dipsomaniac at 12:30 PM on September 1, 2008

The fact that she has used the little power she has had as mayor and governor to get people who stood in her way fired should be enough to keep her from getting elected (think Alaskan John Bolton). Anything non-political is just a distraction.
posted by drezdn at 12:33 PM on September 1, 2008

I think the power brokers just played their trump card too soon - their desperation to hang on to power threw their timing off. It's immaterial to them if Palin has no substance, since they are the ones that pull the strings, they just need a dummy with a charismatic public persona to be the front man a la Reagan. If they had left her in place for a few more years propping up her resume and insinuating her strategically in the national dialogue, she might have one day been formidable conservative candidate ... but by thrusting her on the national stage prematurely, they have likely overreached and spoiled her chances for good. One can only hope.

Wow. I think there's a lot to that - the preemie Reagan.

Eesh, did it just get colder in here?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:33 PM on September 1, 2008

"In voting terms, 54-41is no where near close. It's a commanding lead just short of a landslide."

Really? I wouldn't think so.

Yeah. A 13-point margin in the popular vote translates to a massive landslide electorally. In 1980, Reagan beat Carter 50.8% to 41%. He won 489 electoral votes to Carter's 49. It's not at all surprising to me that Palin's pulling 41%. 30% of the electorate will vote for anyone, anyone, anyone their party runs. Nearly 30% of Illinois voted for Alan "Batshit Insane" Keyes against Barack Obama in his Senate race, for heaven's sake. The fact that 1/7th of the non-crazies like her doesn't surprise me a bit.
posted by EarBucket at 12:36 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

pyramid termite:
"you forgot stupid, venal, slanderous, obnoxious and shameless

you're for or against decency in politics and in life - and no red herring accusations of hypocrisy can save you from the perception that this is sheer guttersnipe mud-slinging that you're committing here

if this is what the culture wars are coming to, then i say to hell with both sides, because we don't have a decent culture thanks to you"

Whoa, whoa, whoa! What the heck?

Put down the firehose you're painting with - take a moment and calm down, or otherwise stop to read more clearly through that haze of anger.

Why does it have to come to calling everyone not on the right so many ugly names when you're really referring to a small group of people who represent the most extreme viewpoints of the non-right?

There is a HUGE middle ground we could all be aiming for. A middle ground of reason and what we can all agree to, at minimum, as fair and just. A middle ground with no ceiling on how much potential is available to each American, no cap to the dignity of humane and equal upbringings, no limit to the decency of human rights.

It doesn't have to come to this screaming, shrieking, vitriolic, hysterical, exasperated, melodramatic point and then end in huffing away with red faces, certain that we can never work together.

We MUST work together. We MUST find this common ground. This constant pushing off each other and on each other and into each other isn't going to get us the lives, government, nation, and even planet we should be able to enjoy and enrich with much less struggle, fear, and disparity.
posted by batmonkey at 12:38 PM on September 1, 2008 [5 favorites]

Is the often cited "most liberal" ranking wrong/skewed/misleading in some way?

Yes. National Journal puts it out.

National Journal is not in the business of discovering who is the most liberal senator in a disinterested fashion.

National Journal is in the business of finding some set of votes that make whoever the (likely) Democratic nominee is appear to be the most liberal senator.

The (or at least a) right way to do this is to look at all votes instead of cherry-picking votes. Keith Poole's \textsc{nominate} scores do that. They run from -1 to 1, with liberal on the left. There are other ways to analyze whole vote records as well, even Bayesian ways, but \textsc{nominate} is the most common.

Using that measure in the 110th Congress, 13 senators are more liberal than Obama, and 35 are more conservative than McCain.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:38 PM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

note to self: html != LaTeX.

Now to scrawl it on the walls 100 times.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:40 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

So now the McCain/Palin campaign get to dispel the rumor (which wasn't going anywhere anyway) and add a lump of sugar to the already sweet Sarah Palin story. Not only is her daughter going to keep the baby, she's going to marry the young man.

They didn't dispel the rumor, they gave credibility to the rumor! Rumors don't gain force by being true, they gain force by people talking about them. And by having to come out with a statement confirming that Palin's teenage daughter is pregnant. (And since some people here are bizarrely unaware of this, most Americans are against teen pregnancy. That is why the Palin family covered this up as long as they did.)

Let's take a look at how the average low information swing voter is going to see this story. Say she is a Hillary voter because she thought things were going good during the Clinton years but she's not sure about Obama with all the talk of him being a radical, and of course McCain is a maverick so she is not sure who to vote for in the general. She doesn't pay that much attention to the news or politics anyway.

First she hears that Palin is chosen to be VP, she thinks it is a little weird that this unknown got the nod, but Palin seems like a strong intelligent women. Then today she happens to read in the headlines that Palin's 17 year old daughter is pregnant. The swing voter doesn't think to much about it because she doesn't really pay to much attention to the news anyway. A few weeks later she is talking to her nut job liberal friend and he is going on and on about how Palin lied about giving birth to her son with Down Syndrome. Normally she wouldn't give a rumor like this any heed, but she did read in the paper a while back that Palin's teenage daughter was pregnant. She thinks to herself that she really doesn't want someone who would lie like that that in the Whitehouse.

This is how swift boating works. The rumor doesn't have to be true, it just has to be out there. Now, I definitely don't think the Obama campaign should be pushing this, but they don't have to, Palin brought it on herself by accepting the nomination. (The same thing happened to John Edwards). I can't believe so many people don't understand this. Have you been asleep for the past two elections?
posted by afu at 12:41 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

There is a HUGE middle ground we could all be aiming for.

there is a minority on the left, just as there is on the right, who do not want this, who will stoop to any level to "score points", and my comments are directed at them

and yes, they are present here and when they use the kind of tactics they've used today, i'm going to tell them off
posted by pyramid termite at 12:45 PM on September 1, 2008

scody writes "konolia, thanks. And now I ask just one favor: tell your fitness instructor that you yourself do know a Marxist (ahem), and she says definitively that Obama ain't one."

scody, if you really think a Marxist has infiltrated Metafilter, you should report him to mathowie and the FBI, at once!
posted by orthogonality at 12:47 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

I thought her pregnancy was being blamed on ~~liberal loggers~~

OMG the critics were right.

Juno DID promote teenage pregnancy!
posted by skyper at 12:53 PM on September 1, 2008

It ain't that in their hearts they're bad
They can comfort you, some even try
They nurse you when you're ill of health
They bury you when you go and die
It ain't that in their hearts they're bad
They'd stick by you if they could
But that's just bullshit
People just ain't no good

People they ain't no good
People they ain't no good
People they ain't no good
People they ain't no good at all

~Nick Cave
posted by dawson at 12:58 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

note to self: html != LaTeX

Note to self: Latex is good.

I am reminded of the old Garrett Morris sportscaster/ex-pro-jock character going on about making basketball backboards of something besides glass, but "not rubber, because rubber breaks."
posted by fourcheesemac at 1:01 PM on September 1, 2008

She didn't literally mean that she thought he was a card carrying member of the Communist party. She was just expressing how she saw him as a leftist. Please remember that to folks on the right the word "communist" is kinda an epithet for those folks they see as on the extreme left.

Right, gotcha now. I still know way too many folks in NC and Michigan that still toss out the "Commie" epithet in all seriousness.
My main point still stands though. Even if the the comment was tossed out in a half-joking manner, that person would still never vote for the Dem, so there's no point in bothering yourselft for that person's vote.
Would you consider this same type of throw away comment about McCain from a kid in dreadlocks and a Greenpeace t-shirt at the local Whole Foods as problematic for McCain? "McCain? I would never vote for that Nazi." Of course you wouldn't. You would just roll your eyes and/or give the universal "jagoff" hand gesture and be on with your life.

I AM telling you that a lot of people I know really do see him as an extreme leftist whether or not that is where Democrats think he fits on the political spectrum.

Again, the same thing. People on both ends of the American political spectrum are so set in their philosophy that they'll never, ever consider voting for someone that has a D or an R next to their name on the ballot. It's just not gonna happen, so it's not really a problem for the candidate.
Besides, you personally knowing lots of people who think that Obama is an extreme lefist actually says more about you and your friends than it does about Obama. No insult implied, just saying that this is the type of person you hang out with.
posted by NoMich at 1:03 PM on September 1, 2008

Anyway, for the people Konolia talking to at the gym, "Communist" doesn't mean Marxist and is only barely about econmics.

For them, "Communist" means "Russian" (sic) means "Atheist". Soviet-style state-mandated atheism. In other words, a "Communist" means somebody taking God out of the public schools, and all the horrors that proceed from that: children talking back, children taking drugs, children having pre-marital or gay sex.

It's about losing control of their kids and the very future their kids are supposed to secure for them, a future of hewing to past certainties and traditional ways. To sum it up, "Communist" ends up being "our kids rejecting us and our cultural values", adopting secular city ways and "Hollywood" values, and showing "disrespect" for their old-fashioned "moral" parents.

It's ultimately the fear of their own children seeing them as parochial, limited, un-hip, uneducated, which is why the "trailer-trash" and "hill-billy" comments really hit a nerve: they're afraid that meddling "Communists" will cause them to hear those pejoratives from their own children's mouths.
posted by orthogonality at 1:04 PM on September 1, 2008 [8 favorites]

Dear Obama supporters. On last thursday, the Candidate you wish to become President stood up and gave What was arguably one of the finest Political speeches in recent history. Record numbers of Americans watched this speech.

And none of them seemed to actually be listening. His opponents sure as hell weren't listening, and it's looking like a lot of his supporters also weren't listening as well.

"let's not make this big election about small things"

The real issue her is that John McCain made this selection without vetting his choice. He was sloppy, impulsive, and once again has shown that he is not taking this election as seriously as he should. After the last 8 years, the last thing we need is more shoddy hiring decisions at the highest levels of our govt. It's not about experience, and it's not about values. It's about judgement. Obama put his VP choices through the most rigorous vetting process of any modern campaign. And we're talking about known people. Joe Biden has been in The Senate his entire adult life, and ran for President twice, and still got put through the wringer before Obama pulled the trigger. McCain went on a hunch and and a misguided sense of identity politics.

That's it. Discussing anything else is beneath you, and beneath your candidate.

Arguing about all this other shit is like wrestling with a pig. You don't get bacon by wrestling pigs. You get bacon by killing pigs.
posted by billyfleetwood at 1:04 PM on September 1, 2008 [23 favorites]

"In voting terms, 54-41 is no where near close. It's a commanding lead just short of a landslide."

Here is 54-41 in graphical terms:

▣▣▣▣▣▣▣▣▣▣▣▩▩▩▩▩▩▩▩

Just 3 blocs (▤▤▤) out of this population of 19 changing:

▣▣▣▣▣▣▣▣▤▤▤▩▩▩▩▩▩▩▩

flips this "commanding lead": to:

▣▣▣▣▣▣▣▣▩▩▩▩▩▩▩▩▩▩▩
posted by troy at 1:05 PM on September 1, 2008

if this is what the culture wars are coming to, then i say to hell with both sides, because we don't have a decent culture thanks to you

I wouldn't overestimate how much the blog culture affects or represents the culture at large. (despite all the Republican outcry about liberal bloggers, which is more a disdain for a forum of discussion that doesn't afford the one-way flow and sufficient control of information necessary for the right wing to make its most ridiculous assertions). I'd have to say that more often, even many of the lowest comments here are more thoughtful and informative than the plane on which national politics are discussed and decided. And there are plenty of voices here to call it out, and plenty who do.

Consider the whole rumor about how Palin covered for her daughter's pregnancy. You could put down the people who discussed it, but that discussion has now led to the spectacle of seeing Republicans reach around their ass to get to their elbow in order to put a positive spin on all this. Really, a Republican PR person casually dismissing a candidate's daughter's out-of-wedlock teen pregnancy with "Life happens"? Priceless.
posted by troybob at 1:09 PM on September 1, 2008

First ROU_Xenophobe starts with the LaTeX, and now troy appears to be using METAFONT. I think we need a Feynman diagram next.
posted by lukemeister at 1:13 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Sarah Palin obviously gave birth to this thread. Because it's retardedly long.

There's a newborn Palin thread on PoliticalFilter, btw. It loads very quickly.
posted by homunculus at 1:13 PM on September 1, 2008

What Michelle Malkin had to say about Obama's statement.

While I'm sure a woman who thinks that sending American citizens to internment camps based solely on their ethnicity is a beacon of rational thought, I'm not really sure what additional insights being a complete nutcase gives her into this strange soap opera of a national election.
posted by cmonkey at 1:15 PM on September 1, 2008 [9 favorites]

...and now troy appears to be using METAFONT.

Yeah, the first thing I thought was that somebody's been studying his Tufte...
posted by troybob at 1:16 PM on September 1, 2008

# How many middle or upper class, college bound women do you know who had kids when they were teenagers? Do you think this is because they didn't get pregnant? No.

Yes, most of them did indeed not get pregnant. They used *contraception*. Maybe you've heard of it.
posted by lodev at 1:19 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

but if he doesn't distance himself from this pronto and with obvious disgust I guess my admittedly worthless vote will be a write-in for Lieberman

c'mon dawson, since you're the person who "simply adores Bush" don't pretend that Obama, the anti-Bush, is your guy. Hell, the McCain camp was considering putting your guy in the VP slot.
posted by troy at 1:21 PM on September 1, 2008

lodev, my guess is that you don't know how many of them got pregnant. Neither do I.
posted by small_ruminant at 1:21 PM on September 1, 2008

Arguing about all this other shit is like wrestling with a pig. You don't get bacon by wrestling pigs. You get bacon by killing pigs.

The quote is "You both get dirty, and the pig likes it."

What makes you think that all the people pushing this are Obama supporters? Maybe they just really hate Republicans. It's great that Obama himself wants to elevate the discussion, but he's not God. The rest of us are still free to gossip if we want.
posted by empath at 1:23 PM on September 1, 2008

What makes you think that all the people pushing this are Obama supporters? Maybe they just really hate Republicans. It's great that Obama himself wants to elevate the discussion, but he's not God. The rest of us are still free to gossip if we want.
posted by empath at 3:23 PM on September 1

You're right. That's the problem with the commie liberal marxist lefties. They don't fall in line like they should. They all have opinions and points of view that don't always line up.

example: Obama sent me a text saying I should donate $5 to the red cross. He's not the boss of me. I donated $20*.

* yesterday, over a day before getting the text message. I'm not a puppet.
posted by birdherder at 1:34 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

As a conservative-leaning independent, I've been giving serious consideration to voting for Obama. But if it puts me on the same side as some of people posting here, I think I'd rather stay home. -- Fuzzy Skinner

Look, it's certainly embarrassing for me as a liberal, but keep in mind there are just as many lunatics on the Right, people who have been spreading "Obama is a Muslim" rumors and stuff like that. There's no "Side" in a two-party nation that's totally free of crazies. Besides, there are plenty of people here who have been arguing against the rumors (Including me)

I must be an evil fuck too but, I am incredibly happy that Palin's daughter is pregnant. This completely neutralizes any blow back to Obama from people speculating about her faking the pregnancy. -- afu

You can't be serious. First of all, it proves all those people wrong. Second of all, it was still disgusting, insane, behavior -- regardless of her daughters pregnancy.

And, hey, since you all brought it up, sometimes unmarried teen daughters get pregnant. And just like my daughter, this girl is planning to marry the father. Imagine that. Taking responsibility for your actions. Taking responsibility for a new life.-- konolia

And if Sarah Palin had taken responsibility to teach her daughter about birth control, she wouldn't be pregnant in the first place. That to me is the huge irony about pro-lifers. They claim to be opposed to abortion, and at the same time they're also opposed to sex-ed unless it's abstinence only and contraceptives, which leads to some teens giving into human weakness and getting pregnant.

I don't know him personally, but has he said anything like this? As far as I know, he's been off giving speeches on trade policy, employment and hurricanes. Babies weren't mentioned. -- jb

Interestingly, Obama did stress the need to reduce unplanned pregnancies in his big speech just last Thursday.

Do you not realize that the Republican party wants abortion to be legal? And do you not know why? The Republican party wants - needs - legal abortion so every four years they can get you to come out and vote for their candidate.

Because if it weren't for that single issue, you would vote for the party that fights for prenatal care for mothers, for better healthcare for children, and for tax cuts for the poor and middle-class.-- Optimus Chyme

This is an incredibly stupid and dangerious idea. The GOP has been hitting the Abortion issue for Decades, and now you've got people, like Sarah Palin in power who genuinely want to stop abortion. And they'll be able to do it too, if they can stack the court. Furthermore, If they do succeed, they can still use it as a campaign platform but claiming that if they don't keep power, or get back in, Abortion will be re-legalized.

Is the often cited "most liberal" ranking (http://nj.nationaljournal.com/voteratings/?loc=interstitialskip) wrong/skewed/misleading in some way? -- Perplexity

Of course it is. In 2004, Kerry and Edwards were the first and second most liberal senators, in 2008, it was Obama and Clinton, and now they're claiming that Biden is the 3rd most liberal. Notice a pattern? The "most liberal" rankings are designed specifically around the most likely presidential candidates. It's all bullshit.

--

Just to clarify my position, I thought that the rumors and stuff about Bristol being Trig's mother were crazy and disgusting, but I do think it's fair to at least discuss Bristol's pregnancy because it does relate to the values and policies she favors. She's pro-life, and she also (I'm assuming) supports abstinence only education. If she had taught her daughter about birth control, Bristol would be much less likely to be pregnant. She's living with the consequences of her own policies, which is actually the opposite of Hypocrisy, so you can't really tag them with that. But there are a lot of people who don't want to live that way and this is a perfect illustration of why.

Remember, a majority of Americans are actually pro-choice, and even more of them support full sex-ed for kids. It's a fact. And Sarah Palin does think it is the governments job to control people's sex lives and reproductive choices.

I don't think it should be used as some kind of cheap political attack, but I think it's fair to note that this is, at least partially, the consequences of her own platform.

Reposted for Konolia, so that she won't miss it, and she can make her statement of approval clear. -- cashman

Um, Konolia already responded to that, and she said the statement was fine.
posted by delmoi at 1:35 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

So Obama compares an infant human being to an STD. I am so IMPRESSED.

Michael Brown is on Fox News as of now, bloviating about Katrina and Neil Cavuto is slamming Bill Clinton for being mean to Brown. I am so IMPRESSED too, because Brown should be in jail and Cavuto should be driving a truck; instead they're rich and happy, isn't that impressive.

also, konolia, for some of us unwanted pregnancies are, no shit, unwanted -- and we find it not right to punish women for the sin of fucking, the way you guys want to do. that's what the anti-sex ed, anti-condom, anti-abortion people are in the end: you are people who, for religious reasons or otherwise, want to punish women for fucking.
posted by matteo at 1:36 PM on September 1, 2008 [9 favorites]

Um, Konolia already responded to that, and she said the statement was fine.

Yeah I saw.
posted by cashman at 1:42 PM on September 1, 2008

The quote is "You both get dirty, and the pig likes it."

Sounds kinky! Tell me more. What happens when you wrestle a cow? Do you both get milk, and does the cow also like it? Cause I think that might be illegal.
posted by billyfleetwood at 1:43 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

Funny how it's Palin who lied about her daughter having mono to pull her out of school, so that she wouldn't shame the family by having an out-of-wedlock child...and now it's all the liberal bloggers' fault!

a young man in spats, we have no evidence that the mono thing was a lie. According to the kos blog, the girl was absent from school five to eight months with mono. If she's five mos pregnant now, the pregnancy dates back to about April.

There's no evidence I know of that the Palins lied, or covered up. The information had evidently been known to Anchorage newsfolk for quite some time, and they did nothing with it: a fairly typical journalistic judgment call.

And (replying to some of the other posts flying around) it's perfectly ridiculous to think that Palin wouldn't have made McCain aware of this information before they sealed their deal. Come ON.
There's nothing odd about the fact that McCain, having this info before the announcement, didn't running away screaming "OMG she has a pregnant unwed daughter!!!!" That is a characterization of conservatives that has more hold on the minds of some of the posters here than basis in reality. Obviously the news was going to come out, and obviously they didn't care.
posted by torticat at 1:49 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

I wonder how her mono would have affected the fetus in the early stages.

just kidding!
posted by troybob at 1:55 PM on September 1, 2008

Speaking of the Obama is a muslim thing, there's a new one brewing.
posted by empath at 2:00 PM on September 1, 2008

Just 3 blocs (▤▤▤) out of this population of 19 changing:
flips this "commanding lead": to:

which might be an instructive visualization if 19 people decided elections. along similar lines just one block ([X]) out of a population of two changes a "commanding lead" of 100% ([X][X]) to a stalemate ([X][ ]).
posted by alk at 2:03 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

And as long as we're talking about responsibility and reproductive freedom, teaching abstinence-only sex ed is irresponsible. Exhibit A is the pregnant 17-year-old.

I think you've nailed it. Sarah Palin' 17-year-old daughter (and soon-to-be grandchild) are lucky because they will (most likely) benefit from a supportive family environment. High school kids have sex and sometimes mistakes happen, usually because kids at that age do not have the cognitive ability to understand the potential consequences of their actions.

This is why the "abstinence-only sex ed" dogma so popular in the States right now and supported by Palin is so wrong, and why Palin (but not her family) deserves to be grilled over this.

This is a major issue, not only about reproductive rights, but also about the rights of women. What kind of quality of life is Bristol Palin, married at 17, going to have simply because she was not taught sex ed? And, being the daughter of a state governor, she's one of the lucky ones.

What kind of quality of life will the tens of thousands of other teen mothers and their children have without access to adequate childcare and ECE for their own children, decent education and training for themselves?

Palin deserves to be criticized for supporting "abstinence-only sex ed", because "abstinence-only sex ed" really means "if you can't do the time, don't do the crime", which is an authoritarian and punitive response to teen pregnancy.
posted by KokuRyu at 2:07 PM on September 1, 2008 [13 favorites]

That to me is the huge irony about pro-lifers.

irony reminiscent of this guy:

Derek, who was thrown from the vehicle, was not wearing a seat belt, Lefler said. He said Havermann and Uphoff were wearing seat belts at the time.

In a column written for the Daily Nebraskan in September, Derek attacked seat belt laws as intrusions on individual liberties and expensive to enforce.

posted by troy at 2:21 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

The Mother of all elections! The election of a Lifetime! How many movies will Lifetime Television be able to make out of this election? We have Hillary left with the bill for a cracked glass ceiling; Obama, whose mother sent him to live with his grandparents; Biden, whose wife and child were killed in a wreck and whose sons helped him seal the deal with the new wife; possible VP Edwards strays from a sick wife and finds his Lewinsky; McCain abandons a hospitalized wife for a new one and now Sarah Palin has the added story of a pregnant daughter. Yes WE Network Can!
posted by Frank Grimes at 2:29 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

Who could have predicted a point at which The Onion could get by with publishing the week's actual headlines?
posted by troybob at 2:30 PM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

Just to reiterate what homunculus linked to above - just how the choice of Palin was foisted on McCain.

Video from a Focus on the Family "news" site

Max Blumenthal's piece in the Huffington Post

So Dobson, Grover Norquist and others get together to find the VP they would prefer, and as they have in the past with George W. Bush, picked an attractive buffoon that would follow direction. The way she is discussed in the focus on the family piece is like a piece of meat, she's is realy just window dressing - pro-life, family values, big oil window dressing.

And McCain went with their choice because he was being a maverick, not going with Karl Rove's choice, Mitt Romney. I think the Dobson group thought McCain would vet her and McCain's people may have come away from the Dobson meeting thinking she was pre-vetted.
Anyway they were running out of time - and I bet she will step down within a few days and Romney will step in.
posted by readery at 2:31 PM on September 1, 2008

Mrs. Palin’s statement identified the father only by a first name, Levi. “Bristol and the young man she will marry are going to realize very quickly the difficulties of raising a child, which is why they will have the love and support of our entire family,...

“Then we have our daughter Bristol, she’s on the bus with the newborn, and then we have our daughter Willow, who is here, and our youngest daughter Piper,” Ms. Palin said as she introduced her family. “On that bus we have our son Trig, who is a beautiful baby boy we welcomed into the world just in April. It’s his naptime, so he is with his big sister on the bus. But we thank them for being here. “

Well, that's about the best way I could've thought of to keep your late teenage years from being used up taking care of your own mother's Down syndrome baby, a baby Mrs. Palin may be too busy to pay much attention to for a long time.
posted by jamjam at 2:33 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

Actually I see Obama as more global. Think about it.

That's not a slam at him, that's actually a feature, and a strong point. But it doesn't help him relate to Joe Sixpack.

Yes, but konolia, where does it say that "relating to Joe Sixpack" is a qualification for office? If you put most senators, governors, etc under that sort of scrutiny, it wouldn't hold up for any of them, either. (Insert snarky comments about how many houses McCain has, how much money John Kerry has, how George Bush "earned" a living before becoming president with the help of his dad's pals, etc).

I'd argue that, in coming down off the pedestal that is an Ivy League education to work in the inner city, as Obama did, puts him much more in touch with the lives, thoughts and needs of the average worker/American than the vast majority of elected officials.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 2:34 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

in other words, the only people who actually could have made a decision to protect Bristol's privacy were her parents. If they cared that much about her, she should have turned down the vice-presidency.

So...people who care about their children don't run for national office? And in 1992, if Bill Clinton had really cared about his daughter, he wouldn't have run?
posted by dilettante at 2:35 PM on September 1, 2008

Not to derail, but seatbelt laws are something I do not like at all. I was in one truly major car accident in my life, when I was 12. My mother was driving and had her belt on. I did not have my belt on. The only reason I am alive today is because I did not have my belt on and was able to get into the back quickly enough to survive the telephone pole.

I'm a rational person, and I understand that fewer people die if everyone wears seatbelts. But it is a fact that if that law had existed, and I had obeyed it, I would not be alive to write about it. So that leaves me torn on that particular issue, me being one of those life-liking kind of people.

About the pregnant kid, meh, I'm with Obama on this one. There are all kinds of perfectly reasonable and indisputable reasons not to vote for her; using this situation as a weapon is A) not necessary; and B) exploiting this would be a very Republican thing to do and those are the folks I *don't* want to be like. As Democrats, we should rise above that and resist the temptation to use this is a political tool. Obama exercised more of that good judgment with his stance.
posted by jamstigator at 2:40 PM on September 1, 2008

And in 1992, if Bill Clinton had really cared about his daughter, he wouldn't have run?

Not necessarily, but if she were an unmarried pregnant teenager whose actions were a rejection of significant chunk of the Democratic party PR machine, the Republicans would never have stopped talking about it long enough to have time for impeachment proceedings.
posted by troybob at 2:42 PM on September 1, 2008 [5 favorites]

Speaking of the Obama is a muslim thing, there's a new one brewing.

Yeah, the title Atlas Shrugs certainly makes me take that blog seriously.
posted by lukemeister at 2:48 PM on September 1, 2008

scody: "That's right. All 80,000 people at Mile High and all 38 million viewers on TV have commented in this thread, and each of them was peddling the baby rumors!"

Seeing my Firefox creak and groan under the weight of rendering this discussion, that statement doesn't seem too far from the truth...
posted by Rhaomi at 2:52 PM on September 1, 2008

It's about 60 days until the election. Decisions about the war in Iraq are obviously among the bigger decisions to come.

Could even a single page be produced with Sarah Palin's ideas (not her son or his signing up) about how the war got started, how it progressed, how it should end, and so forth?

I know Biden has said a lot about it. If Sarah's going to possibly be vice president, I would hope that she's at least got enough ideas about it to fill a page or two at the very least.
posted by cashman at 2:53 PM on September 1, 2008

And if Sarah Palin had taken responsibility to teach her daughter about birth control, she wouldn't be pregnant in the first place.

what else have you learned from your wiretaps of their house? you have no idea what her and her daughter talked about or if she did use birth control and it failed, so you can quit talking as if you do
posted by pyramid termite at 2:56 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

And if Sarah Palin had taken responsibility to teach her daughter about birth control, she wouldn't be pregnant in the first place. That to me is the huge irony about pro-lifers.

DAMN it Delmoi, I can't believe you wrote that. What the fuck do you know about what Sarah Palin personally taught her kid? Or whether her daughter did use contraception and it failed??

I would venture to guess, and I know something of conservatives, that the majority of anti-sex-ed-distributing-condoms-in-schools, abstinence-only folks DO tell their kids to use protection IF they decide to have sex. (The stakes are higher for them, after all, as they oppose abortion.) They just don't want teen sex implicitly sanctioned at school--they want to talk to their own kids. (And yes, I personally emphatically support school sex education. I just understand how some people see things differently.)

You assume that Sarah Palin's daughter, daughter of a conservative state governor, never having heard of condoms because her mother withheld the information from her, had unprotected sex. 17 years old, poor thing, and she'd never heard of a condom. Her pregnancy is her mother's fault. What do you actually know about any of that, and how is it your business again?

There is no direct line here from the public to the private. Opposing sex ed in school does not exclude family guidance in the area, and your assumptions are just way out of line.
posted by torticat at 2:57 PM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

by the way, does anyone think that this would have been a big as story if her 17 year old son had gotten someone pregnant? do you think the "white trash" comments would have started up on this thread, just as they did after her pregnancy was mentioned? is this some kind of politically correct way of calling her a slut?

i think there's a little boyzone misogyny going on here
posted by pyramid termite at 3:03 PM on September 1, 2008 [4 favorites]

the majority of anti-sex-ed-distributing-condoms-in-schools, abstinence-only folks DO tell their kids to use protection IF they decide to have sex

The fact that you believe this explains a lot about your views.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:04 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

...abstinence-only folks DO tell their kids to use protection IF they decide to have sex...

You might want to reconsider your definition of the word 'only.'
posted by troybob at 3:04 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

Mr. Obama said the pregnancy “has no relevance to Governor Palin’s performance as a governor or her potential performance as a vice president.” He added that, “my mother had me when she was 18. How a family deals with issues and teen-age children — that shouldn’t be the topic of our politics.”

“So,” he added, “I would strongly urge people to back off these kinds of stories.”

Absolute class and too damn right. I love this man so much, I'd vote for him twice if only I could. Or, you know, lived in Florida.
posted by DarlingBri at 3:05 PM on September 1, 2008 [8 favorites]

...not that I think Palin's daughter was not necessarily taught about birth control...but I envision it more in sense of how the strict anti-abortionist, in legal times or not, can invariably get her hands on the phone number for that special doctor to call when her daughter gets 'in trouble'...
posted by troybob at 3:08 PM on September 1, 2008

by the way, does anyone think that this would have been a big as story if her 17 year old son had gotten someone pregnant?

Yes, but with the added discussion of how there is a double standard for boys in that situation. I don't think she would necessarily have been accused with carrying his child, however, so it kind of balances out.
posted by troybob at 3:15 PM on September 1, 2008

which might be an instructive visualization if 19 people decided elections

Yeah, they're decided by nine people. Duh.
posted by EarBucket at 3:20 PM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

by the way, does anyone think that this would have been a big as story if her 17 year old son had gotten someone pregnant?

The "Track got a girl pregnant" story isn't scheduled to come out until Friday. The narrative will be like this: 9/11/08 right before shipping off to Iraq he'll marry the mother. The ceremony might happen at Ground Zero if they can get the logistics worked out.
posted by birdherder at 3:21 PM on September 1, 2008 [4 favorites]

GOP VP pick Sarah Palin laughs at cancer surviving senator being called a "bitch"
posted by acro at 3:22 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

I would venture to guess, and I know something of conservatives, that the majority of anti-sex-ed-distributing-condoms-in-schools, abstinence-only folks DO tell their kids to use protection IF they decide to have sex.

Therefore: 1) they are not teaching abstinence-only to their own children, while 2) demanding that other people's children be taught the type of misinformation they don't pass on to their own kids.

Wow. That's family values, all right: "I value my family more than I value yours."
posted by scody at 3:24 PM on September 1, 2008 [7 favorites]

To summarize, Sarah Palin doesn't have any foreign policy experience (beyond a proximity to Russia), may have been barely vetted by McCain (or may have been the choice of a right wing cabal), is currently involved in an ethics scandal involving using her office to punish her ex-brother-in-law, is anti-polar bear, has less than two years of experience as governor, doesn't actually command the Alaskan National Guard, actually supported the bridge to nowhere initially (though she stopped supporting it when it became politically expedient to do so), didn't know what the duties of the vice president were as of a month ago, and is less qualified to be VP than most of the rest of the Republican party.

Furthermore, this appears to be a cynical move on McCain's part to appeal to a very specific part of the Republican base, as opposed to a sober choice that will allow for the best possible person to run the country in the event of his death - which we should be concerned about because he is 72 and has had cancer several times. Also, she may have been chosen to lure some former Clinton supporters over in the hopes that they won't notice that her views are entirely different from Clinton's - a view that is supported by a quick visit to the PUMA message boards.

Also, she may be associated with an Alaskan Separatist movement, doesn't know when the Pledge of Allegiance was written, and has publicly called Hillary a whiner, her cancer survivor opponent "a cancer," and Ted Stevens a great dude.

Anyhow, as near as I can tell there are at least a dozen really meaty points to attack McCain on - if this was his choice of VP, what does it say about his judgement?

This, my friends, is the meat here. Go after McCain. Go after his judgement. Focus on McCain. Focusing on anything else scores points for the other team.

McCain had the choice to pick somebody qualified to be President of the United States. Instead, he picked somebody imminently unqualified for the position. That speaks worse of McCain than it does of Palin.

It's McCain, stupid.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:30 PM on September 1, 2008 [38 favorites]

Q: Are you offended by the phrase "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance? Why or why not?

PALIN: Not on your life. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me and I’ll fight in defense of our Pledge of Allegiance.

Via. I don't like the way Sullivan handled this at all but, wow. Seriously? Could we have Biden and Palin debate every night from now to November? Please? Locked together like two rats chewing each others tails - which never stop growing.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 3:31 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

Oh, apparently that's old news.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 3:33 PM on September 1, 2008

I can't believe the whole privacy-violation and misogyny charges are still being thrown about. Palin is running a campaign based on who she is, because she cannot run on experience. When she was first announced, the Republican line was all about how her big advantage was "her story" and how inspiring it is. If she is going to do that, she does not have the benefit of claiming that some parts of "her story" are off limits. She sold herself based on her life and her choices, and so she has opened them up for discussion.

Also, she brings to the whole platform a focus on reproductive rights and family values, so the way those issues have played out in her own life is fair game. One of her goals is taking away abortion as a choice; many women would consider that an invasion of privacy far worse than the consequences of her wholly voluntary candidacy and willingness to be subject to the kind of scrutiny that every national-level politician is afforded.
posted by troybob at 3:35 PM on September 1, 2008 [7 favorites]

I find this all to be a distraction, albeit a deliciously trashy one. Politically, Obama can't win by going after a teenage unwed mother, even if it points out the hypocrisy of the religious right or the failure of abstinence-only sex education or whatever. It's still too-easily spun as anti-family values, or as picking on someone's private life, or as dragging a teenager girl into an international political spotlight she doesn't belong in. I will personally keep tabs on stories like this coming out of the Palin family, and privately discuss them with barely contained glee, because who doesn't enjoy some juicy, Grace Metalious-style scuttlebutt?

Palin is not the issue; she's a distraction from the issue, and a potential minefield. Obama can't argue against her inexperience, because to do so would highlight his own inexperience (although her selection also effectively takes discussion of his experience off the table). All that's important is that she would be a representative of McCain's presidency, and that's the real target, and it's going to be a problem for her. In debate, she is going to have to defend his record and his policies, and that's going to be a problem for her, because she doesn't really know them, and may not agree with them.

Everything else takes away from this discussion, and it needs not to, because that's the discussion that will win Obama the election.
posted by Astro Zombie at 3:39 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

"let's not make this big election about small things"
...B. Obama

That's it. Discussing anything else is beneath you, and beneath your candidate.
...Billyfleetwood

Oh, so you've decided that we can't discuss anything about Sarah Palin except McCain's judgment in picking her? I've got news for you, The Today show is going to discuss how cute her baby is, and the Oprah show is going to discuss her choice in eyewear, and People magazine is going to write about her marriage, and Christian Weekly is going to talk about her church attendance, and Guns & Ammo is going to talk about her hunting trips.

We all want to know more about this Woman Who Would Be King in waiting and since she is a virtual unknown, there will be a lot to discover AND discuss.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:41 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

> Opposing sex ed in school does not exclude family guidance in the area, and your assumptions are just way out of line.

The problem is the family guidance can be wrong and poorly informed, if it happens at all. It is a privilege to have the time and resources for a parent to be able to do the research and provide any insightful information to their children other than sound bites they heard on tv such as you can get aids from tears. Of course, public libraries are now fighting to be able to keep books on their shelves that have relevant information about sex ed, so parents and children can educate themselves about the subject matter.

The outrage I have with the abstinence-only education, and the actions of Palin, are that they have continually demonstrated a classist approach to sexual health. If you are well off, rich in terms of strong social networks and education, even a teen pregnancy will not stop you. Hell, my cousin was raised by my (very well off, and very Republican) grandparents because my uncle knocked up his highschool sweetheart at 18. My uncle went away to college, the mother did too, and my cousin was raised by loving (grand)parents. And my dad has a little brother all of a sudden when he was 14.

Public access to sexual health information is a matter of a public health, not a matter of morals or politics. Syphilis and other STDs are seeing a spike in the last 7 years, as kids are still having sex, just now they don't know what the hell they are doing.
posted by mrzarquon at 3:44 PM on September 1, 2008 [6 favorites]

DAMN it Delmoi, I can't believe you wrote that. What the fuck do you know about what Sarah Palin personally taught her kid? Or whether her daughter did use contraception and it failed??

Um, I'm assuming that she's been honest when she talks about what kind of sex education is appropriate. Are you saying she's a lying hypocrite who supports abstinence only sex-ed publicly but wants her own children to know how to use contraceptives?

And yeah, fine I don't really know what went on in the privacy of Sarah Palin's home, but I do know that if she followed her own public policies she wouldn't have taught her daughter about contraceptives.

The alternative is that she's a hypocrite.

Like I said, it's not a political attack, but it's important to point out why these policies are bad ideas. I don't think it's unreasonable to even discuss the situation. I do think the people spouting the whole "Bristol is Trig's Mother" theory were totally crazy.
posted by delmoi at 3:51 PM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

Yeah, Obama has class, sadly, some who profess to like the man, like the sewer. This is classic reverse psychology, some here on MeFi are being assholes to make Barak look like an asshole. Remember the rabid hateful 'lets build a straw man' MeFi's who seek to make Obama reprehensible to others are trying to do just that. Make us feel disgusted about the whole thing.
No change. Politics as usual. Personal destruction.
Reject the muck. We are, most of us, above this sad shit smear 'campaign'.
posted by dawson at 4:00 PM on September 1, 2008

Two days ago, that is two days before Palin and McCain told the press about Bristol’s pregnancy, a commenter by the name of 'Sue Williams' got all the private details of the story right on the Mudflats Alaskan politics blog. She claimed to live in the same town as the Palins and that she is close with the "inner circle" of Palin family friends.

Of course everyone was so obsessed with the Trig cover-up fake pregnancy narrative at the time, that she was angrily dismissed as a liar. Well it’s pretty hard to think that now!

If you ctrl+F all her posts in that thread, this is some juicy insider gossip. Williams tells the story of an ordinary small town mom and her surreal streak of political serendipity, that could take her from podunk town mayor to the most powerdul leader in the world in just a handful of years. Sue Williams:

I live in this Valley. I know the Heath/Palin families. I am a proud Republican. And I’m a conservative.

…

We all - every single one of us - even Sarah’s closest friends in the Valley (I know, I’ve been speaking to them) know she is in no way qualified for this position. At all.[*]

…

[H]er mayoral races were like a stroll through the park on a hot summer day. Her dad has basically taught everyone out here when they were in middle school science. She won her last mayoral race with less than 1,000 votes. It takes more than that to win a seat on the Valley’s school board.

What hasn’t been reported, at least not much, is that she was unemployed for almost three years before becoming gov. So, people talk about how she was gov for two years - make that 20 months. And before that? Unemployed for almost three years. She ran for mayor on a line of Positively Palin. Everyone knew her and her family. It wasn’t a nasty race.

The race for gov wasn’t exactly “nasty” either. She played the sympathy card constantly. It’s weird how people who aren’t paying attention will fall for it.

She ran for gov against the LEAST LIKED GOV IN THE UNION. His positive numbers were single digits. The local dog catcher could have run and won. Come on, people. This IS Alaska. She won b/c she got in the race so early and I think it kept more qualified people out. Also, the former gov took forever to decide if he’d run for reelection. If he hadn’t, the other guy on the Rep. side would have walked away with the win easily. But, the old gov and the other guy - John Binkley, who was the favorite in the business/thinking community - didn’t count on Sarah being served up no scrutiny in the press. The local press just ran pictures of her and whatdoyaknow? She won. And now she’ll apparently be VP and possilbly president.

[*] This assertion is substantiated by recent comments from Palin’s own mother-in-law:

Faye Palin said the entire family was shocked by the news on Friday.

"I'm not sure what she brings to the ticket other than she's a woman and a conservative.”

posted by dgaicun at 4:01 PM on September 1, 2008 [36 favorites]

Torticat is it your fucking job to come in here, guns blazing, to scold everybody every few minutes?
What the fuck. Chillax.

Palin is on record as being AGAINST birth control. Against Abortion (hence against choice). And against premarital sex. She is on record favoring POLICY that will restrict OTHER peoples rights in regards to these issues.

So in your rather obnoxious and over scolding opinion we can't hold her accountable for the obvious inconsistencies in both her private life and public policy positions. Those very inconsistencies are the clear trademark of those that chronically abuse power.
posted by tkchrist at 4:06 PM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

We are, most of us, above this sad shit smear 'campaign'.

Making a mistake when you're 17 isn't something one can be "smeared" with, unless you're the typical hypocritical, judgmental, old-testament-for-thee-but-not-for-me member of the religiously Republican Right.

The absolute, unspun, objective truth, especially about our politicians who a charged with ORDERING OUR PUBLIC SOCIETY VIA LEGISLATION AND JUDICIAL APPOINTMENTS, is never a smear.
posted by troy at 4:16 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

dgaicun, thanks for that link. Truly that's the best of the web - a commenter who shares Sarah Palin's doctor, who knows things from inside the town. A voice we'd have never heard from in decades past without some kind of intervening by media who would distort the voice. I like this part particularly:

These are what we call “bumper sticker” citizens. If an idea is too long for a bumper sticker, it’s too complicated for them to try and wrap their minds around.

Great stuff in there. Fascinating, and the poster is specific and clear and the accounts seem earnest, unsensational and believable.
posted by cashman at 4:21 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

The "Track got a girl pregnant" story isn't scheduled to come out until Friday.
And here I was guessing it was more like the "Track doesn't like girls" story. Not because I have a shred of evidence but only because it pairs up nicely with the "abstinence-only" mother being graced with an unwed, teenage mother.

The outrage I have with the abstinence-only education, and the actions of Palin, are that they have continually demonstrated a classist approach to sexual health.

Two months ago, when I read that the Bush administration was seeking to reclassify birth control pills as abortifactants, I had to look at Laura Bush and wonder how she managed her small family without taking The Pill. Tubes tied? No sex for W? Prayer? Surgery for little W? And what of her newly married daughter-- will she be producing an heir this year? When our government makes rules on our sex/procreation lives, it is fair to ask how they manage their own personal lives.

Just remember that we can outlaw abortions and birth control here, but that won't mean diddley squat to anyone with the price of an airline ticket to England or Japan. All that means is the poor can choose between a sex life OR paying the bills. Don't you just love the idea of living in a country where only the wealthy can afford to have sex?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:21 PM on September 1, 2008 [8 favorites]

troy,
what I meant was the desperation to pin something 'dirty' on Palin. I mean so far we have a husbands 25 year-old DUI, some old stuff with a cop acting out, a teenage pregnancy and 'no foreign policy' experience.
Not you per se, but obviously some are desperate to smear Sarah Palin.
I can't imagine how this would help dems, so it must be 'free agents' of the rabid 'republican' brand. I just really don't want to think that people who wanna see Obama elected would get near any of this, 'cast the first stone at Palin omg eleventy!!!' movement.
posted by dawson at 4:28 PM on September 1, 2008

And on top of that, relates the importance of the information.

Apparently that’s what blind ambition does for you, folks. It blinds you to the hearts and needs and lives and emotions and futures of everyone around you - incl. your own daughter who, God only knows how she’ll bear up under the shock and shame when this story finally comes out.

No thank you. I would like a VP candidate who puts the lives of the people she’s supposed to be caring for first, above her own. Since, for social reasons (abortion and gay issues) I can’t in my conscience vote for Obama, I’ll show up in the booth this Nov and vote for congressional races then slip out before casting a vote for people who have no business being given the responsibility and honor of running our nation.

This whole thing is sick. Sick.

I disagree with the "social reasons" thing and I'd like to talk about the "single page" idea instead of the stuff about her daughter. But it's an inside look into the inner workings of the town, the government and the potential VP's decisions that seems like rare and unique information.
posted by cashman at 4:31 PM on September 1, 2008

dawson, what are you talking about -- the DWI story was released by the campaign, unbidden. The troopergate story is all over the news in alaska and has been for months.

Also (saw this at Reason):
45: number of months Sarah Palin has been pregnant
20: number of months Sarah Palin has been governor

9,000: population of Wasilla, AK the town of which Palin was mayor
15,000: the number of people at the rally announcing her nomination as VP

7: number of people in the Palin family
7: number of houses John and Cindy McCain own

72: years that John McCain has been alive
49: years that Alaska has been a state

1: number of times McCain and Palin had met before today
20 million: the number of dollars that the city of Wasilla was left in
debt when Palin's term as mayor ended

When John McCain started his campaign, Sarah Palin was not yet governor of Alaska.

John McCain left both his first wife and Mitt Romney for beauty queens.
posted by empath at 4:32 PM on September 1, 2008 [17 favorites]

> Tubes tied?

Fun vignette growing up: I found out my dad convinced his very large company he was a manager for, to cover sterilization while their catholic based health insurance provided did not. He did it on the grounds that it was cheaper for them to provide the surgery to those who wanted it than it would be to cover the expense of the ma/paternity leaves.
posted by mrzarquon at 4:34 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

empath,
I guess what I'm talking about is that if 'all' this is the best 'they' have against Sarah Palin, well they ain't got much. I'm seeing nada about policy and real political problems (and being a conservative is a strength, not a problem for the GOP veep nominee) except the nebulous 'lack of foreign policy experience'.
posted by dawson at 4:39 PM on September 1, 2008

dawson, I tend to agree with this.

But: I am reminded of Kerry bringing up Cheney's lesbian daughter and the violent pout-storm that erupted among the Republicans above that.

"HOW DARE YOU expose our structural moral hypocrisy!"

It's not an attempt to smear Palin to get to the bottom of the dismissed public officer thing, either.

The would-be occupants of the highest executive office in this country must be held to the highest moral standards.

President Bush willfully lying to the country to force the Congress to go to sign-off on his war ought to be a sufficient example of the dangers of electing self-involved NPD moral deficients.

If Kerry had indeed shot himself to get out of 'Nam the whole Swift Boat thing wouldn't have been a smear, but as I said above exposing objective truth is never a smear.
posted by troy at 4:45 PM on September 1, 2008

George Lakoff: The Palin Choice and the Reality of the Political Mind
posted by homunculus at 4:50 PM on September 1, 2008 [5 favorites]

dawson -- everything you've seen so far has been pushed by random bloggers doing google searches and local alaskan's doing infodumps. I haven't seen anything that looks like oppo-research yet. The Obama campaign will come up with better attacks in a few days, I'm sure. They'll likely take it easy until after the convention is over.
posted by empath at 4:59 PM on September 1, 2008

Sarah Palin hired an attorney to defend her in the TrooperGate scandal today.
posted by msalt at 5:04 PM on September 1, 2008

[McCain] picked somebody imminently unqualified for the position.

That's hilarious, given the timing of these rumors.
posted by ryanrs at 5:10 PM on September 1, 2008

I would like a VP candidate who puts the lives of the people she’s supposed to be caring for first, above her own.

sorry, but at that level of politics, it's not going to happen - unless something extreme happens, a politician's family is going to be playing second fiddle to the campaign or the office - one has to have an ego the size of a mack truck to run for vpres or pres and yeah, i include obama in that statement

it's just what it takes to win this game
posted by pyramid termite at 5:10 PM on September 1, 2008

what I meant was the desperation to pin something 'dirty' on Palin. I mean so far we have a husbands 25 year-old DUI, some old stuff with a cop acting out, a teenage pregnancy and 'no foreign policy' experience. -- dawson

Uh no, we have a story where Sarah Palin fired the head of the Alaska State Troupers because he wouldn't in turn fire a cop over some "old stuff". Then she lied about it. The woman is going to be deposed under oath about this in the next few weeks. This was and is a pretty major scandal up there.
posted by delmoi at 5:18 PM on September 1, 2008

But: I am reminded of Kerry bringing up Cheney's lesbian daughter

That was actually John Edwards, in the 2004 VP debate.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:18 PM on September 1, 2008

I think y'all are very wrong if you think this story is going to be about liberal bloggers saying nasty things about the Palins. Her daughter's pregnancy is one thread in a very thick rope that is right now being knotted into a noose for the McCain campaign's neck. Get out of the echo chamber and look at the media. They aren't interested in blaming liberal bloggers ... they are interested in finding out what other kind of shit they can find on Palin, and they are trying to figure out why the McCain campaign didn't find out first.

McCain spokespeople are refusing to say what day of the week they found out about the pregnancy. That strongly suggests that McCain had no idea until after he picked her. And if you say, "well, it shouldn't matter, so why should he have known?" then you are buying into the Republican spin. They should have known because if they didn't, shit like this would happen.

Look, I am100% for gay rights, and if I learned that Joe Biden kept a secret gay love nest and didn't tell the Obama campaign about it, I'd be pissed at him. Because this is what happens.

My god, the woman just lawyered up.

Also, Karl Rove is a very smart man, but he isn't Lex Luthor, and this isn't some beautiful con game. This is a big-time fuck-up.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:20 PM on September 1, 2008

My without-a-particular-axe-to-grind friend Fred put together some fairly interesting assemblages of some MySpace pages that muddle this whole baby-marriage-family thing. I know it's all people saying "well this sort of looks like it might be sketch..." and staring sideways at an undated photograph, but was pretty much ignoring most of that until this which just seems strange to me.
posted by jessamyn at 5:21 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

Sarah Palin hired an attorney to defend her in the TrooperGate scandal today.

Anchorage attorney Thomas V. Van Flein has requested a copy of all witness statements and documentary evidence from the Legislature's investigator, Stephen Branchflower. Sen. Hollis French, an Anchorage Democrat, says he instructed Branchflower not to comply with the request.

Wait, WTF? IANAL but isn't this, like, discovery? Aren't they required to hand this stuff over? Don't people in the US still have a right to see the evidence against them in preparing a defence?
posted by DarlingBri at 5:24 PM on September 1, 2008

Just as I predicted upthread: Hillary Clinton will be dropping the hammer on Palin:

Advisers to Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton said on Sunday that Senator John McCain’s selection of Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska as his running mate would lead to a greater role for Mrs. Clinton as she campaigned this fall on behalf of her former rival, Senator Barack Obama.

Mrs. Clinton’s friends said she was galled that Ms. Palin might try to capitalize on a movement that Mrs. Clinton, of New York, built among women in the primaries.

Oh yes, it's on.

Look, the Obama camp has been working furiously to stay on-message. Their response ad to Palin's selection is dominated by shots of Bush with only a single one showing Palin, and Obama's statement telling reporters to lay off the Bristol Palin story reinforces the direction they're trying to steer the campaign back into. The truth of the matter is that Palin adds precious little to the ticket: she does nothing to shore up McCain's weakness on the economy (unless you think governing a state where 80%+ of the budget comes from oil revenues and a hefty chunk of the rest comes from the highest levels of per-capita federal subsidies will give Palin any particular insight on core economic issues dominating the lower 48, such as the mortgage crisis), and by now it's obvious that her selection casts serious doubts on McCain's judgment and commitment toward sound governing. Palin is far from the mainstream on social issues, especially her stance against abortion even in the case of rape and incest. Many women had still mistakenly believed that McCain was pro-choice, but Palin helps to put the final nail in that misconception. I still believe that Palin's greatest threat to the Democrats is the potential backlash against any unfair personal attacks or even poorly-phrased throwaway comments, and that's why it's even more important than ever than Democrats need to stay totally on-message and remain focused on policy while zeroing in on Bush/McCain. The human interest stories surrounding Palin will largely die down in a week or two, and once that's passed she'll have an uphill fight to pass the credulity test.

I'm actually glad to see the God-and-guns crowd enthused about Palin. They were never going to vote for Obama anyway, and in the end the Republicans would've done something or other to rabble-rouse them to the polls. It's better that their attention and enthusiasm are focused positively on a female role model (to them) than on yet another wedge gay marriage ballot initiative or ludicrous Muslim smear. At the end of the day, it's better for the country to have conservatives come out in broad daylight and proudly support the issues they believe in and have their say, too. The more that things are played out aboveboard, the more likely that the better candidate with the better policies will win. We're in a very delicate moment in this campaign, and those who truly believe in Obama's message need to be following his lead right now.
posted by DaShiv at 5:27 PM on September 1, 2008 [27 favorites]

That was actually John Edwards, in the 2004 VP debate.

Kerry and Edwards both mentioned it, but only Kerry caught flack for it, for whatever reason.

My without-a-particualr-axe-to-grind friend Fred put together some fairly interesting assemblages of some MySpace pages that muddle this whole baby-marriage-family thing. -- jessamyn

Oh my god no, that person is seriously out to lunch:

came across a link to the Myspace page, and was shocked at what I discovered. In a series of photographic captions, Sadie, brother of Levi, describes Sarah Palin as the mother-in-law of Trig. Furthermore, she cites Bristol Palin as her sister-in-law.

The caption of the photos call Sarah the "Mother in law" but who's mother in law? Well think abou it. Sadie is Levi's sister, and Levi is Bristol's fiance. that means Sarah will be Sadie's mother in law! and it means that Bristol will be her Sister in Law Exactly like the captions say!

There is nothing inconsistent with those captions!
posted by delmoi at 5:28 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Um, DaShiv? I love you. Also, please run for public office.
posted by scody at 5:30 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

Wait, WTF? IANAL but isn't this, like, discovery? Aren't they required to hand this stuff over? Don't people in the US still have a right to see the evidence against them in preparing a defence?

it's a legislative, rather then court proceeding.
posted by delmoi at 5:33 PM on September 1, 2008

I am cynical enough to think that shrewd rovian disinformation operatives probably began the more extreme rumors careening through the blogosphere as a way to get the uncomfortable news out and create a sympathetic backlash against liberals. They have proven masterful about launching large scale spins that turn positives into negatives and negatives into positives so it is not inconceivable that they did so in this case too.

Bingo!
posted by ericb at 5:34 PM on September 1, 2008

The caption of the photos call Sarah the "Mother in law" but who's mother in law? Well think abou it. Sadie is Levi's sister, and Levi is Bristol's fiance. that means Sarah will be Sadie's mother in law! and it means that Bristol will be her Sister in Law Exactly like the captions say!

Further, the in the third caption, Sadie describes Trig as her BROTHER. If it was the son of her brother and Bristol, it would be her nephew. This MySpace thing is a whole lot of nothing.
posted by kimdog at 5:36 PM on September 1, 2008

This MySpace thing is a whole lot of nothing.

not only that, it would be real easy to fake by changing the captions

*deletes from hard drive*
posted by pyramid termite at 5:40 PM on September 1, 2008

Obama's speech last night was incredibly moving. America, such an amazing, wonderful place, would do well to elect Obama. He is the dream realized.

Oh, FFS! Politics will never get any better until the voters become more cynical than the politicans.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:40 PM on September 1, 2008

The page Jessamyn linked to is gone now. What happened?
posted by Locative at 5:41 PM on September 1, 2008

She specifically calls Trig 'my new baby brother'. If it were Bristol's kid, she'd have said 'nephew'. OTOH, she writes as if they're already married? There is still something weird about the whole situation, but at this point, I don't think I want to know any more about it.
posted by empath at 5:42 PM on September 1, 2008

I am reminded of Kerry bringing up Cheney's lesbian daughter
Wow, no wonder she turned out that way!
posted by lukemeister at 5:42 PM on September 1, 2008 [6 favorites]

Obama's speech last night was incredibly moving. America, such an amazing, wonderful place, would do well to elect Obama. He is the dream realized.

Oh, FFS! Our only hope of saving this country is for the people become more cynical than the politicans they vote for. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to step outside and puke for a moment.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:42 PM on September 1, 2008

Oops, sorry 'bout the double ... thought my browser time-out on the first one.
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:43 PM on September 1, 2008

timed
posted by ZenMasterThis at 5:44 PM on September 1, 2008

pyramid termite: do you think the "white trash" comments would have started up on this thread,

Just for the record (since this thread is so damn long) note that this is a total of two "white trash" comments so far, out of
~1750 comments at this point. There have actually been several more comments protesting that label than using it.
posted by XMLicious at 5:49 PM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

McCain clinched the nomination on March 4. He's had almost six months to pick a running mate, and this is the best he could do?

Kerry and Edwards both mentioned it, but only Kerry caught flack for it, for whatever reason.

Edwards said, "[the Cheneys] have a gay daughter" in the VP debate and it was no big deal. (Cheney even said, "let me simply thank the senator for the kind words he said about my family and our daughter.") Kerry said, "if you were to talk to Dick Cheney's daughter, who is a lesbian, she would tell you that she's being who she was, she's being who she was born as" in the third presidential debate and the Cheneys freaked out, apparently because Kerry used the word "lesbian."
posted by kirkaracha at 5:54 PM on September 1, 2008

I would like to point out the fact that I was merely saying that I thought the media narrative on her would be that she was white trash, not that I personally thought she was white trash.
posted by empath at 6:00 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Joey Michaels -- you're spot on!
posted by ericb at 6:00 PM on September 1, 2008

The page Jessamyn linked to is gone now. What happened?

maybe the guy read my comment in the moderation queue and just decided to delete the article.

Basically someone had gone through Bristol's future husband's sister's myspace page and got confused by a caption calling Sarah Palin her "mother in law". It didn't make much sense. I actually saved a copy but it's really not worth reposting.
posted by delmoi at 6:06 PM on September 1, 2008

Oh and by the way Obama's gotten an 8-9 point bounce in the polls post convention. And these polls will mostly be from before the Palin train wreak.
posted by delmoi at 6:07 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Obama is like the guy who spends hours online looking for the right car, test drives them, figures out the car he wants, haggles with the dealer and finance guys for so long his wife starts to get very testy. Eventually he drives off with a decent, safe car at a reasonable price, the sort of car the neighbors think isn't too exciting, but it's clearly the right choice. Kids booster seats fit in back, decent mileage, and free floor mats he demanded at the very end or else he walked.

McCain is like the guy who knows he needs to replace his car, does a little research, test drives them, and just when you think he has it figured out, he sees that hot sports car over there.

It is BEAUTIFUL. Ford Mustang Shelby GT, 500 HP, 0-60 in 4.6. And it's a convertible, too!

So he immediately walks over to the sales manager and demands it. The sales manager throws out an obscene price, and the guy says "Deal!"

He drives it home. Wife shakes her head. Where do the booster seats go? Booster seats? Honey, this goes 0-60 in 4.6! How much did you pay? He tells her. But you could have bought two unexciting cars for that! That wouldn't be exciting, honey, don't you see, this is about ME getting EXCITEMENT and SHAKING THINGS UP!

After sleeping on the couch for a week, he takes it back, pays a penalty, and then buys a minivan.

I think we'll see the same thing soon: McCain will pick up the Romney with the power sliding doors and the DVD players in the headrests.
posted by dw at 6:11 PM on September 1, 2008 [24 favorites]

McCain will pick up the Romney with the power sliding doors and the DVD players in the headrests.

Heh. But as much as this would amuse me (particularly the part where Romney gets a DVD player implanted into his head), I think that scenario basically announces to the world: "Hey everybody, look! I fucked up my very first 'presidential' decision! Don't you feel confident more confident than ever in voting for me?"

MCCAIN/~~PALIN~~ROMNEY '08: WE'LL KICK YOUR ASS AT DO-OVERS!
posted by scody at 6:17 PM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

> McCain will pick up the Romney with the power sliding doors and the DVD players in the headrests

I sure hope so.

How else am I going to move all these "McCain/Romney 08: a house for every wife" bumperstickers.
posted by mrzarquon at 6:17 PM on September 1, 2008 [9 favorites]

Don't you feel confident more confident than ever

SCODY FOR PRESIDENT OF THE DEPARTMENT OF REDUNDANCY DEPARTMENT
posted by scody at 6:21 PM on September 1, 2008

ow else am I going to move all these "McCain/Romney 08: a house for every wife" bumperstickers.

So what *IS* the whole child/house ratio of the McCain/Palin ticket looking light now?
posted by Artw at 6:25 PM on September 1, 2008

After sleeping on the couch for a week, he takes it back, pays a penalty, and then buys a minivan.

I think we'll see the same thing soon: McCain will pick up the Romney with the power sliding doors and the DVD players in the headrests.

I love the analogy, dw, but I think Sarah's here to stay. Aint nobody excited about Romney. I don't think the republicans can switch VP candidates now. It would say too much about McCain's judgement, and they would lose a lot of things they gained with her. This assessment seems to ring true. It's never going to be about the realities of today. It's going to be some symbolic, emotional thing that reality, logic, thinking cannot touch, if only for a few days. It's been fear. Now it'll be some other emotion that supplants calm, rational evaluation. Or hell, maybe it'll still be fear.
posted by cashman at 6:27 PM on September 1, 2008

Errr, this assessment.
posted by cashman at 6:29 PM on September 1, 2008

It's been fear. Now it'll be some other emotion that supplants calm, rational evaluation.

Yep. I'd be surprised ("shocked") if when/ Homeland Security raises the "threat level" to "orange" or "red" over the next two months!
posted by ericb at 6:33 PM on September 1, 2008

McCain will pick up the Romney with the power sliding doors and the DVD players in the headrests.

then at midnight everything will go *poof* and he'll find out that he's stuck with a lousy amc gremlin
posted by pyramid termite at 6:34 PM on September 1, 2008

It's going to be some symbolic, emotional thing that reality, logic, thinking cannot touch, if only for a few days.

cashman -- you are right. It's right from the 'Rovian Playbook.' Shift the focus from the "rational" to the "emotional." Appeal to basic desires/interests and obfuscate everything else. Heck, many Americans voted against their best interests (primarily economic) in the past two campaigns, since they fell for the "gay agenda will sink America" subterfuge, etc.
posted by ericb at 6:40 PM on September 1, 2008

Yeah. DaShiv nailed it.

Palin is in a world of hurt thinking she can take on the Clintons.

Say what you want about Hillary but she is one ruthless, tough, smart, mother fucker. If Palin thinks she is gonna just co-opt Hildogs jargon and skip merrily off with Clinton's women voters with out a fight? She is out of her frost-and-tipped little mind.

Still. I think McCain is gonna squeak by this election. I think we still got an October surprise down the pike, Diebold, and the democrats penchant for fuckiing themselves to contend with... though this Palin thing does give me hope.
posted by tkchrist at 6:42 PM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

Further, the in the third caption, Sadie describes Trig as her BROTHER. If it was the son of her brother and Bristol, it would be her nephew. This MySpace thing is a whole lot of nothing.

It's nothing anymore with today's announcement of Bristol Palin's pregnancy and future marriage, but if the announcement would not have been made, this MySpace page would have leaked not that Bristol is pregnant per se, but the telling fact that she is engaged at 16/17.

I endeavored to imagine how the absurdity might increase - I think the discovery of an old 4chan camwhoring thread with low-res blurry pics of a girl who is either Bristol Palin or a lookalike and notes in the text that she's from Alaska would be pretty lulzy.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 6:49 PM on September 1, 2008

Yeah, scody nails it; you don't change horses in mid-stream or VP candidates in September unless you have no other choice.

And as konolia's made clear, Palin energizes the base better than most anyone can (maybe Jindal, but he'd turn off white racists and anti-Catholics). Romney's not a great choice, as the Fundies fundamentally distrust Mormons, and the Evangelicals (rightly) see their proselytizing as a threat to market share.

McCain's made his (or as I suggested above, Karl Rove's) gamble, and McCain (who recently tried to insist on playing craps in Vegas despite his aids explaining that would look bad in a candidate) isn't going to ask for new cards.
posted by orthogonality at 6:52 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

If only Congress hadn't stopped the funding for the Texas Supercollider back in the roaring nineties, the Republicans could be using it to fuse Palin, Romney, and Cheney into a super-veep. PaCheRomlin - A pretty, tanned hermaphrodite Mormon Frankenstein who occasionally shoots people in the face. With foreign-policy superpowers due to Palin's Alaska-genes: PaCheRomlin would be able to clench a fist, sitting at a desk in Washington, and achieve the Darth-Vader-choke on Putin all the way over in Moscow.

And there would be ice breath too, to deal with global warming. But PaCheRomlin would have to be tricked into using the ice breath, since she doesn't believe in global warming.
posted by XMLicious at 7:05 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

(maybe Jindal, but he'd turn off white racists and anti-Catholics)

Isn't Palin catholic too? Or was she just raised catholic?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:07 PM on September 1, 2008

Palin is or was a member of a fringe secessionist party desiring Alaskan independence. Nevermind that the state is 68% owned by the fed, who bought it from Russia. Do we have a traitor attempting to infiltrate our highest office?
posted by Brian B. at 7:07 PM on September 1, 2008

Oh, man, I think this was all part of McCain's gamble from the start. I have to assume he knew about this before he announced Palin. This pregnancy was the icing on the cake, because he knows this thing will last more than a couple of news cycles--it'll be a topic of discussion throughout the rest of the campaign. So at a bare minimum, McCain and Palin automatically make the front page news and the Dems can't touch it with a ten foot pole. Republicans understand that a large percentage of their base, and of working class independents respond to issues that hit on a visceral level. Many if not most working class families can relate to teenage pregnancy; many or most of those people are anti-choice, and this just reinforces that and brings abortion to the forefront of political debate. Which as Optimus Chyme put it so well: that's exactly what Republicans want. They don't want to talk about real issues, they want to dominate the media with this issue because it might fire up enough reptile hind-brains to get out and vote for McCain. Obama has to somehow get this story off the radar.

Maybe Joe Biden can rough up a convenience store robber or something?
posted by zardoz at 7:07 PM on September 1, 2008

“Weird new talking point from the McCain campaign. They're now saying that Sarah Palin, or perhaps we should now be calling her General Palin, is ‘Commander in Chief’ of the Alaska National Guard that is fighting in Iraq. I'm sure the governor is the de jure chief of the state's national guard, but to imply that she's somehow the equivalent of the Commander in Chief of the US military, direct Alaska's forces in the fight against Al Qaeda, running through war plans and launching rocket attacks, is just laughable. Don't take it from me. Take it from the general who runs the Alaska National Guard:
’Maj. Gen. Craig Campbell, adjutant general of the Alaska National Guard... said he and Palin play no role in national defense activities, even when they involve the Alaska National Guard. The entire operation is under federal control, and the governor is not briefed on situations.’
Oops.

Th[e] interview…is simply astounding. CNN's Campbell Brown just obliterates McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds who simply refuses to answer, is unable to answer, the simple question as to what foreign policy experience Palin has. He couldn't name one decision she made as commander in chief of the Alaska National Guard.”^*

posted by ericb at 7:10 PM on September 1, 2008 [7 favorites]

They don't want to talk about real issues, they want to dominate the media with this issue because it might fire up enough reptile hind-brains to get out and vote for McCain. Obama has to somehow get this story off the radar.

The biggest irony of this whole thing is that Obama being out of the news is a GOOD thing for him. Since Iowa, Obama has been the number one story of this election, and most of the coverage has been negative. This combined with the media's penchant for stirring up shit/getting everything wrong was not helping him one bit.

He just had an immensely successful convention, capped off by presenting his message to a record number of people. Instead of this weekend before the RNC being spent picking apart the past week, it's being spent setting up a bunch of negative storylines for the GOP.

Now that the spotlight is on someone else he can a) control his message even more, and b) work on his ground game, which has been pretty much ignored by the press anyway, despite being his main weapon towards winning this thing.

If Obama can lay low for the next two weeks, while everyone talks about Palin, it's a win for him.
posted by billyfleetwood at 7:25 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

ABC confirms--McCain vetting team just now heading to Alaska.

I know I keep saying this, but this is completely bugfuck insane. You just can't choose a running mate without vetting her first. Not just to tell you who you shouldn't choose, but to prepare you for what might pop up with the person you do pick. I guarantee you the Obama team knows the name of every woman Joe Biden's ever dated, every address he's ever lived at, how many freakin' hairs he has on his ass. There's a team of people designated to think like Karl Rove, coming up with lines of attack on Biden so that they can create effective counters for them before they ever come up. There's a similar team for Obama. Probably another one for Michelle.

It's been what, 72 hours since Palin's name was announced? And already we've found out that she has ties to a secessionist group, her teenage daughter's pregnant (allegedly by a 26 year old male), she's about to be deposed in an ongoing corruption scandal (she's just lawyered up today!), and she doesn't know what the Vice President's job is.

The Republican party ought to sue John McCain for political malpractice. If things were reversed, and this were happening with the Obama campaign, I'd be screaming, throwing things at my computer screen, and giving up on the election right now. It's absolutely inconceivable to me that a modern presidential campaign is being run like this.
posted by EarBucket at 7:27 PM on September 1, 2008 [8 favorites]

Fifty buck on white power affiliations by Wednesday morning. Anyone want that action?
posted by The Straightener at 7:29 PM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

Fuzzy Skinner writes "But if it puts me on the same side as some of people posting here, I think I'd rather stay home."

That's pretty weak tea, an idea isn't responsible for the people who believe in it.

ThePinkSuperhero writes "Well, what else is there to do in Alaska?"

Fishing, hunting, running, skating (three kinds), swimming, biking, hiking, camping, nature photography, astronomy, shooting, skiing, and probably a thousand other outdoor activities that are readily available when you don't have to take two subways and a bus to see a tree. Plus of course reading, writing, surfing the web, watching tv/movies, driving, having coffee, playing pc/console games, assorted crafts and hobbies and other indoor activities available to American kids. To scratch the surface.
posted by Mitheral at 7:33 PM on September 1, 2008

Shit, I think we'll get the white power affiliations around 1:15PM tomorrow. By Wednesday morning, we're going to find out she's half-Martian.
posted by EarBucket at 7:33 PM on September 1, 2008

Isn't Palin catholic too? Or was she just raised catholic?

She may once have been Catholic, but she isn't now.
posted by lukemeister at 7:34 PM on September 1, 2008

Her husband's an eighth Yupik; I'll take your bet
posted by jtron at 7:35 PM on September 1, 2008

we'll get the white power affiliations around1:15PM tomorrow.

That'd be awkward since her husband's only half white, if I remember right.
posted by small_ruminant at 7:35 PM on September 1, 2008

I hope note. Astro Zombies are required to vote a straight Martian ticket.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:38 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

hope NOT.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:43 PM on September 1, 2008

McCain will pick up the Romney with the power sliding doors and the DVD players in the headrests.
then at midnight everything will go *poof* and he'll find out that he's stuck with a lousy amc gremlin

Ron Paul?
posted by Flunkie at 7:46 PM on September 1, 2008

The Republican party ought to sue John McCain for political malpractice. If things were reversed, and this were happening with the Obama campaign, I'd be screaming, throwing things at my computer screen, and giving up on the election right now. It's absolutely inconceivable to me that a modern presidential campaign is being run like this.

Bwahaha. The funny thing is, you have it backwards. McCain wanted Joe Lieberman, but the republican party bigwigs, particularly those of the religious right pretty much foisted Palin on him. Not to say he wasn't receptive or whatever but this is clearly a pick by the insiders and by the dobsonites designed to shore up their base. McCain met her once.

McCain probably assumed that the religious right had vetted her themselves, or something, and they probably figured she seemed so cute and innocent there couldn't be any problems.
posted by delmoi at 7:48 PM on September 1, 2008

I'm guessing Cylon.
posted by troybob at 7:50 PM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

The amazing thing is that this is everything that's come out before the Democrats finish their opposition research, before the investigative journalists have taken a whack at her, and before she's had a moment to make a single unscripted statement or answer a single (post-announcement) question from a real reporter. All of this, from the granddaughter to the separatist group to the Stevens 527, was just what was on the surface.
posted by Bookhouse at 7:51 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

we'll get the white power affiliations around1:15PM tomorrow.

It's not "white power" but Palins connections to Pat Buchanan's 2000 run will kill the ticket with Jewish voters
posted by delmoi at 7:52 PM on September 1, 2008

EarBucket writes "You just can't choose a running mate without vetting her first."

McCain chose Lieberman (or maybe Pawlenty, or Romney).

Rove forced Palin on him. How, we'll never know. Maybe the same way they got him, in 2004, to hug the guy who dragged his daughter through the mud.

And Rove doesn't care if she's vetted, hell, it's better that she's not and gets eviscerated, because she's a sop to the Fundies and if she gets torn apart by "the lib'ruls" or the "lib'rul media", she'll make an even better martyr, thus cementing Fundie hate of Democrats and allegiance to the Republican Party.
posted by orthogonality at 7:58 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

There are so many angles to the story that I might not see it, but I'm curious as to whether the positive messages being put out by Focus on the Family and similar groups wrt Palin are consistent with their historical positions and statements. They could very well be; I'm just not familiar with them.
posted by troybob at 7:59 PM on September 1, 2008

My friends, all I can tell you is that there were five and a half years when I couldn't have vetted a running mate even if I had wanted to.
posted by Flunkie at 8:09 PM on September 1, 2008 [14 favorites]

Is the Republican Party or members of it purposely trying to derail McCain? The Palin nomination seems so problematic on a wide spectrum of areas. If he chose her as a Hail Sarah pass without vetting then "wow." If she was foisted upon him and his team assumed due diligence then someone just shanked him, bad. I am still trying to digest everything, and I admit that this is one very strange buffet that I am ladling on my plate.
posted by jadepearl at 8:09 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

McCain sells the last scrap of his soul.
posted by Bookhouse at 8:15 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

McCain wanted Joe Lieberman, but the republican party bigwigs, particularly those of the religious right pretty much foisted Palin on him.

According to this article by Sidney Blumenthal, McCain wanted Lieberman, but Rove insisted on picking Romney. Palin was McCain's "compromise choice" in response to Rove. The only thing Rove foisted on McCain was that his running mate had to be anti-abortion. It doesn't look like Rove force McCain to pick Palin specifically. Rove's skills as a strategist may be overrated, but he's not stupid.
posted by jonp72 at 8:17 PM on September 1, 2008

jadepearl writes "Is the Republican Party or members of it purposely trying to derail McCain?"

He's strongly disliked, even hated in some Republican circles.

It's not by accident that after he secured the nomination, anonymous Republican senators went to the media with "temper", "hot-headed", "unstable", and can't-be-trusted-with-the-button stories.

Whether it's his anti-pork stance, or his former "maverick" status, or his former liberalism on social issues, or real fear of his temperament, I don't know. But a senator doesn't shiv his Party's candidate for President without strong motivation.
posted by orthogonality at 8:20 PM on September 1, 2008

Hah, yeah, I've never had so much fun watching the Republicans trying to spin things. Tucker was on CNN tonight, and he said Palin had lots of military-related foreign policy experience and had made many important military decisions related to the Alaskan National Guard and Iraq deployments and whatnot. So the CNN lady said, 'Huh, okay then, can you name one of those decisions?' And Tucker went totally blank. He tried to cover it up and squirm out of the question, but when he couldn't even name *one* important foreign policy decision (after just saying she's made many!), well, he made the whole party look like a joke. Not that McCain needed his help in that area.
posted by jamstigator at 8:21 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm curious as to whether the positive messages being put out by Focus on the Family and similar groups wrt Palin are consistent with their historical positions

Well I'm willing to bet my last nickel that if this were the situation uncovered on a Democratic candidate's screening, FotF would never let us hear the end of it. They'd wreak havoc with the entire rumor mill and make hay with the verifiable: past pot-smoking, the negligent-mom-flying-while-in-labor bit... Issues normally not escaping their scrutiny are easily glossed over when it's for a self-driven, politically protective purpose. It's all too convenient for certain hypocrites to cast (or mask) such tidbits in a light that suits them. With the religious right, "consistency" isn't what I'd call their strong suit.

and I happen to think of hypocrisy as an equal-opportunity worm that thrives in all dimensions of humankind when given the chance; I just think the Republicans are demonstrating it especially effectively right now.
posted by skyper at 8:26 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

She's a Paulite (2:47 in the video).
posted by joedan at 8:27 PM on September 1, 2008

Tucker was on CNN tonight

Here it is
posted by Bookhouse at 8:31 PM on September 1, 2008

Therefore: 1) they are not teaching abstinence-only to their own children, while 2) demanding that other people's children be taught the type of misinformation they don't pass on to their own kids.

Wow. That's family values, all right: "I value my family more than I value yours."

No, scody. They are advocating a very limited scope of sex ed at school. Abstinence from vaginal intercourse being (no one will deny) the only foolproof method of avoiding pregnancy or STDs. They find the idea repugnant, yes, of their twelve or thirteen-year-old doing the whole movie-gag condom-on-a-banana routine along with their classmates. It seems to them that instruction on condoms and IUDs and the pill has more to do with social issues than academic ones. They think parents, rather than teachers, should be the ones to handle such discussions with their children. Something along the lines of, "I know my child might have sex and get pregnant. But can I handle this possibility with my daughter--does it need to be a group project done with all the other horny teens in my kid's class?"

I don't agree with this thinking. But it's ridiculous to say that just because some people don't want their kids to have this kind of on-the-job training at school, they're hypocrites (delmoi) for privately giving their children further instruction. There are many, many aspects of child-rearing that we consider to be the parents' prerogative, and not the schools'; and there are a lot of gray areas. It shouldn't be too surprising that sex ed falls into "controversial" territory.

Certainly, there are parents who give their children no guidance beyond "don't do it." That's horribly irresponsible, but I don't think we have any basis for assuming Sarah Palin falls into that category. (Given her personal history, it actually seems unlikely that she does.)

I think McCain's gamble on Palin is going to blow up in his face, personal issues aside, and rightfully so. But saying Palin's responsible for her daughter's pregnancy on the basis of Palin's position on school sex ed policy is unfair and irrelevant. At least in the world according to torticat, metafilter's newest termagant. :)
posted by torticat at 8:32 PM on September 1, 2008

Oh, hey! Looks like she may be lying about having been named Miss Congeniality. There's still 23 minutes left before September 2; I wonder what else we'll find out today!
posted by EarBucket at 8:38 PM on September 1, 2008

Abstinence from vaginal intercourse being (no one will deny) the only foolproof method of avoiding pregnancy or STDs.

I deny that abstinence from vaginal intercourse is a foolproof method of avoiding STDs.

Did you, perhaps, get your sex ed via an abstinence-only curriculum?
posted by Flunkie at 8:38 PM on September 1, 2008 [7 favorites]

Getting to know you.
posted by Astro Zombie at 8:42 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin said that she was baptized Catholic as a newborn and now attends a "non-denominational Bible church".
posted by lukemeister at 8:45 PM on September 1, 2008

They are advocating a very limited scope of sex ed at school.

I get that, but it is still problematic because it puts at a disadvantage kids who don't have responsible parental influence. It's one thing for parents to say that they don't want their own kids taught sex education (an option that existed when I was growing up in GA in the 80s), but to extend that decision to all kids is unfair, so I tend to think scody's criticism holds here.

Also, I don't get how she would be advocating abstinence-only for school and then she is supplementing that with something else at home. Abstinence-only has one option--no sex--and does not allow room for others--doesn't even allow it in a public-health sense. Teaching her daughter about birth control (which, on a brief search, it seems Palin has indicated at some pint to be against altogether) would not seem consistent with an abstinence-only policy.

Or is there something about abstinence-only I'm not getting? Does the 'only' part refer to that being the only thing taught in school, or does it refer to abstinence being the only thing taught, period.
posted by troybob at 8:46 PM on September 1, 2008

Did you, perhaps, get your sex ed via an abstinence-only curriculum?

no, he got it from his grandmother and his grammar's confused
posted by pyramid termite at 8:48 PM on September 1, 2008

Oh, hey! Looks like she may be lying about having been named Miss Congeniality.

Lying about even trivial things which there's no reason to lie about? I'm surprised she doesn't already have a position in the Bush administration.
posted by Flunkie at 8:49 PM on September 1, 2008 [5 favorites]

> I deny that abstinence from vaginal intercourse is a foolproof method of avoiding STDs.

But if you get an STD and you are a virgin, it's just a TD right?

I mean, it is not like you can get a disease from kissing, skin contact, backdoor action, or even cuddling in the same bed, right?
posted by mrzarquon at 8:49 PM on September 1, 2008

No, scody. They are advocating a very limited scope of sex ed at school. Abstinence from vaginal intercourse being (no one will deny) the only foolproof method of avoiding pregnancy or STDs. They find the idea repugnant, yes, of their twelve or thirteen-year-old doing the whole movie-gag condom-on-a-banana routine along with their classmates.

No, what they find repugnant isn't their children being taught this, it's any children being taught those things, after all, they can opt their kids out if they want too. And how many kids, having been deprived of sex-ed at school are actually going to get it at home. You hear stories all the time about the confusion teens have about sex. It seems like something everyone "just knows" but the fact is a lot of kids don't understand much about it at all, certainly not about birth control.

Opting a kid out of sex ed is fine, but what these people are talking about is banning all sex ed for everyone.

Now I do see what you mean about how you can be opposed to school sex ed but still in favor of parents giving kids the birds 'n' the bees, but there are clearly a lot of people who think that all sex before marriage is wrong and are not going to explain how and why to use condoms with their kids. (but no, we don't actually know if Palin is one of them)
posted by delmoi at 9:08 PM on September 1, 2008

Did you, perhaps, get your sex ed via an abstinence-only curriculum?

Honestly, I don't even remember what they told me. I'm old. :)

However, point taken. STDs can be got otherhow than vaginal intercourse. Pregnancy, setting aside IVF etc, not so much.
posted by torticat at 9:13 PM on September 1, 2008

Pregnancy, setting aside IVF etc, not so much.

actually someone I know got preg while still technically a virgin. Motile little bastards, aren't they?
posted by troy at 9:17 PM on September 1, 2008

Blockbuster NY Times piece on the Sarah Palin Vetting Disaster

“The comedy of errors that is John McCain's choice of Sarah Palin continues. Except, when the issue is picking a potential leader of our nation in a time of war, it shouldn't be a comedy and it shouldn't be filled with errors.

Read this blockbuster article in tomorrow's New York Times. There is so much in it. The article reveals that John McCain didn't get the vice president he wanted (Joe Lieberman or Tom Ridge) because the religious right, which controls the GOP (and now controls John McCain), went ballistic on McCain last week because both Lieberman and Ridge are pro-choice. So McCain caved. Because of McCain's kowtowing to the theocrats, he hurriedly dumped Lieberman and Ridge and instead picked the very anti-abortion, but not much else, Palin without even fully vetting her.

Now, sure, the McCain campaign is claiming that Palin was ‘thoroughly vetted.’ But, that is clearly not true - the Times talked to all the key players in Alaska, and none of them were approached by the McCain campaign. In fact, McCain's vetter only just arrived in Alaska on Thursday, the day before McCain announced Palin as his VP choice.

This failure is actually quite stunning on many levels. It's just so fundamental to the process, the vetting of a vice presidential choice, that failing to do it properly is pretty much campaign malpractice. Clearly, Sarah Palin was not seriously vetted. An excerpt from the Times:
‘In Alaska, several state leaders and local officials said they knew of no efforts by the McCain campaign to find out more information about Ms. Palin before the announcement of her selection, Although campaigns are typically discreet when they make inquiries into potential running mates, officials in Alaska said Monday they thought it was peculiar that no one in the state had the slightest hint that Ms. Palin might be under consideration.

‘They didn’t speak to anyone in the Legislature, they didn’t speak to anyone in the business community,’ said Lyda Green, the State Senate president, who lives in Wasilla, where Ms. Palin served as mayor.

Representative Gail Phillips, a Republican and former speaker of the State House, said the widespread surprise in Alaska when Ms. Palin was named to the ticket made her wonder how intensively the McCain campaign had vetted her.

‘I started calling around and asking, and I have not been able to find one person that was called,’ Ms. Phillips said. ‘I called 30 to 40 people, political leaders, business leaders, community leaders. Not one of them had heard. Alaska is a very small community, we know people all over, but I haven’t found anybody who was asked anything.’

The current mayor of Wasilla, Dianne M. Keller, said she had not heard of any efforts to look into Ms. Palin’s background. And Randy Ruedrich, the state Republican Party chairman, said he knew nothing of any vetting that had been conducted.

State Senator Hollis French, a Democrat who is directing the ethics investigation, said that no one asked him about the allegations. ‘I heard not a word, not a single contact,’ he said.

Mr. French, a former prosecutor, said that he was knowledgeable about background checks and that, he, too, was surprised that the campaign had not reached out to state legislative leaders.’
We've been saying for the past couple of days that this pick says more about John McCain than Sarah Palin. It really does. John McCain caved to the anti-abortion theocrats running the Republican Party, made a hasty pick for his v.p., and is now suffering the consequences.”

posted by ericb at 9:17 PM on September 1, 2008 [9 favorites]

Levi Johnston: Bristol Palin's Baby Daddy Revealed.
posted by ericb at 9:22 PM on September 1, 2008

My form of abstinence-only curriculum is staying on Metafilter all the time.
posted by lukemeister at 9:22 PM on September 1, 2008 [6 favorites]

I guess what I'm talking about is that if 'all' this is the best 'they' have against Sarah Palin, well they ain't got much. I'm seeing nada about policy and real political problems (and being a conservative is a strength, not a problem for the GOP veep nominee) except the nebulous 'lack of foreign policy experience'.

This is because beyond being for drilling and against polar bears, Palin doesn't have any specific policy positions beyond the run of the mill cultural and pro business conservatism.

A lot of people here seem offended that the "liberal blogosphere" is going after Palin's personal life, and I agree that on a personal level it is offensive. However, Palin's personal life has nothing to do with me, but her political life is very important. These rumors about her pregnancy were already out in the open in Alaska before she took the VP nomination. She should have known that the rumors and her daughters pregnancy would become national news. Just like Edwards was an asshole for campaigning while he was having an affair, Palin was very irresponsible toward her kids. Both Trig and Bristol are going to dealing with fucked up blow back from this for the rest of their lives.

Politically, I don't see how this is anything but good news for Obama. Palin is in self destruct mode, nobody on his side even needs to talk about her anymore, she will forever carry "plagued by scandals" next to her name.

Also, I really want to move to this place in America where people don't like to pass moral judgment over other people's personal lives, because that sure is not where I live.
posted by afu at 9:24 PM on September 1, 2008

New York Post:

“Palin and her husband, Todd, said their daughter plans to marry the child's father - who sources said is Levi Johnston - and that both ‘are going to realize very quickly the difficulties of raising a child, which is why they will have the love and support of our entire family.’

Johnston, 17, who is entering his senior year at Wasilla HS, plays on the school hockey team and was once teammates on a youth squad with Palin's older brother, Track, 19, who is now in the Army.

Despite suffering a cracked bone in his shin last season, Johnston scored 24 goals in 24 games.

‘We don't want to talk about this,’ said a woman who answered the phone at the Johnston home.

On his MySpace page, Johnston boasts, ‘I'm a f - - -in' redneck’ who likes to snowboard and ride dirt bikes.

‘But I live to play hockey. I like to go camping and hang out with the boys, do some fishing, shoot some s- - - and just f - - -in' chillin' I guess.’

‘Ya f - - - with me I'll kick [your] ass,’ he added.

He also claims to be ‘in a relationship,’ but states, ‘I don't want kids.’’’

posted by ericb at 9:26 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

From ericb's Levi Johnston: Bristol Palin's Baby Daddy Revealed link:

On his MySpace page, Johnston (...) claims to be "in a relationship," but states, "I don't want kids."

That's still (or at least very recently) on his MySpace page?

I wonder if he found out before or after John McCain.
posted by Flunkie at 9:32 PM on September 1, 2008

he ~~is cute!~~ will be cute when he reaches legal age...
posted by troybob at 9:32 PM on September 1, 2008

Honestly, I don't even know how John Stewart will *begin* tomorrow night.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:36 PM on September 1, 2008 [3 favorites]

I can almost guarantee he's going to begin by offering the Palin's congratulations and best wishes on the pregnancy announcement and then move on to grilling her on everything else.
posted by empath at 9:45 PM on September 1, 2008

‘I'm a f - - -in' redneck’ who likes to snowboard and ride dirt bikes.

‘We don't want to talk about this,’ said a woman who answered the phone at the Johnston home.

LET LEVI SPEAK!
posted by Brian B. at 9:51 PM on September 1, 2008

He also claims to be ‘in a relationship,’ but states, ‘I don't want kids.’’’

I've wondered what it would like to get knocked up by Jim Anchower.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:54 PM on September 1, 2008 [6 favorites]

This story would have achieved perfection had the father turned out to be Hugh Downs.
posted by troybob at 9:56 PM on September 1, 2008

Dude, this is as good as the prewar intelligence on Iraq!
posted by every_one_needs_a_hug_sometimes at 9:59 PM on September 1, 2008

Thanks to Orthogonality and others. I am going to go ahead and think that McCain was done a purposeful disservice by both Rove and anti-abortion elements; caught in a compromise with predictable behavior he chooses a candidate that was not fully vetted. Damn, I assume he plays craps better than this blooming situation indicates. Man, there are a lot of long knives out for Palin in Alaska and wow, McCain in his own party.
posted by jadepearl at 10:01 PM on September 1, 2008

The New York Times article is mindblowing.

Jesus, this speaks very poorly of McCain's judgment. NYT says he announced her nomination moments after his first face-to-face meeting with her!

And that he chose her only after the religious right told him he had to. Some maverick!

When you add these revelations to the things we already know about her trooper scandal, her ties to the secessionist group, her manifest inexperience, and the lack of vetting, McCain has got to dump her. Surely she will withdraw her name within the next forty-eight hours.
posted by jayder at 10:06 PM on September 1, 2008

This is completely mindblowing. I can't help but be a bit giddy over that CNN clip; I've never seen them tear someone a new hole like that - especially a Republican.

Goddamn it. I think this is god's punishment to Hunter S. Thompson for offing himself - throwing the most perfect circus of a political storm at the next available election.
posted by kaibutsu at 10:13 PM on September 1, 2008 [5 favorites]

I don't understand why those Alaska Republican legislators who were interviewed by the New York Times were so open about the fact that Palin was not vetted. Are they trying to destroy her nomination? It would seem that, as Republicans and (presumably) Palin supporters, they would want to give the illusion that she was carefully vetted; instead, they are bending over backwards to confirm everyone's suspicion that she was not vetted, and they are being strangely forthcoming about that information.
posted by jayder at 10:14 PM on September 1, 2008

he ~~is cute!~~ will be cute when he reaches legal age...

Hey, age of consent is 16 in Alaska (apparently)

I don't think being tied to a secessionist group is really that big of a deal, unless they were violent secessionists, who really cares?
posted by delmoi at 10:15 PM on September 1, 2008

Jayder - Speaking as a mathematician, I can safely say that in the long run, everyone loses at craps.

Everyone.
posted by kaibutsu at 10:17 PM on September 1, 2008

I've always had the impression that McCain doesn't like the religious nutcases in the party. Reading the NYT thing, I'm wondering if he's basically sticking it to them--or trying to scare the hell out of them--by turning it into a train wreck--especially if he faces being threatened by them at every turn down the line. Some variation of this would explain (as an alternative to plain old senility) his shocking lack of judgment in this whole thing.
posted by troybob at 10:18 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

It would seem that, as Republicans and (presumably) Palin supporters, they would want to give the illusion that she was carefully vetted; instead, they are bending over backwards to confirm everyone's suspicion that she was not vetted, and they are being strangely forthcoming about that information.

From what I understand, Palin is that well liked among Republican circles in Alaska because she ran against a Republican incumbent governor and has been "anti corruption".
posted by afu at 10:19 PM on September 1, 2008

“They didn’t seriously consider her until four or five days from the time she was picked, before she was asked, maybe the Thursday or Friday before,” said a Republican close to the campaign. “This was really kind of rushed at the end, because John didn’t get what he wanted. He wanted to do Joe or Ridge.”

Now that's an unappetizing image.
posted by The Straightener at 10:19 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

instead, they are bending over backwards to confirm everyone's suspicion that she was not vetted, and they are being strangely forthcoming about that information.

In stories on her so far, it appears that she hasn't really built any bridges in Alaska, even within her own party.
posted by troybob at 10:21 PM on September 1, 2008

If McCain can't call the shots in his own campaign, how's he going to call the shots for the country?
posted by kirkaracha at 10:22 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

C'mon, delmoi - this is Alaska. These were secessionists with guns!

And remember all that 'Putting country First' stuff? Michelle Obama being all not proud enough of her country? Where exactly does a secessionist fall on the patriotism scale?
posted by kaibutsu at 10:23 PM on September 1, 2008

I don't understand why those Alaska Republican legislators who were interviewed by the New York Times were so open about the fact that Palin was not vetted. Are they trying to destroy her nomination?

I wouldn't put it past them. She's done a lot to tweak the Alaska GOP -- play their game to get to the top, then tosses them aside to put her loyalists in power (as with her pushing the lieutenant governor into that runoff with Don Young). She's really only been a player in the party on a state level for a few years, and I'm guessing the good ol' boys with the old money wouldn't like anything more than for her to be politically damaged so greatly they can get rid of her and send her packing back to Wasilla.

Yeah, she's underqualified to be president, but she's shown herself to be a back-stabbin', horse-tradin' politician. She just wants to run her own political machine.
posted by dw at 10:24 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh pooh, jayder. McCain is living up to his word. He's putting country first. And with any rise in the polls, see- the person some people hated on, who said she had no experience - "Look! Americans want her!" they'll say.

You already saw Bounds trying to twist any criticism of her into "belittling". So what McCain had to choose somebody - presidents have to make tough choices and listen to the people, not the media or the pundits. That's why John's a maverick. You know, he learned to ignore what people were telling him he had to do, when he spent 5 & 1/2 years as a P.O.W.

Small towns and rural areas are what makes this country great. And that's where Sarah Palin is from. She's got problems just like you, and the liberal elite latte intellectual internet nerds are attacking her for it. But Sarah is tough, and she will go to bat for you in the white house. And she's just so American and pretty, so who cares about lies or any of that nonsense you hear. Just look at her. Look at John. Now vote for them, and not the communist muslim liberal interweb nerd baby killer meanies who gang up on her. Math is hard!
posted by cashman at 10:26 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

jayder writes "I don't understand why those Alaska Republican legislators who were interviewed by the New York Times were so open about the fact that Palin was not vetted."

Because they hate her. I'm a little vague on all this who-killed-Cock-Robbin business, but other than her ties to Senator Ted "series of tubes" Stevens (sitting on the board of his dubiously legal 527 soft-money org), she's apparently the outsider reform candidate who upset a lot of apple-carts, getting elected just as the rest of the Alaska Republican Party was imploding over corruption allegations. That's, and her Fundie bona fides, is how a mayor who'd been out of work for three years became Governor.
posted by orthogonality at 10:30 PM on September 1, 2008

I apologize up front, but the tawdry rumors, etc. continue online.

"Sarah Palin Nude Pictures, Bristol Daughter’s Second Child and more trouble."

posted by ericb at 10:31 PM on September 1, 2008

It appears that her Alaskan colleagues are being pretty open about their utter astonishment at her nomination. The Alaska Republican legislators' quotes to the effect of, "We can't find anyone who was called to vet her," sound very much like they are politely saying, "How the hell did this moron get picked as a VP nominee?"

Seriously, if her own state party colleagues can't bring themselves to put on a gameface when the media comes calling, but are openly incredulous, what does that say about her fitness? Who knows her better than her fellow Alaska politicians?

She's toast.
posted by jayder at 10:33 PM on September 1, 2008

WikiScandal
posted by Artw at 10:35 PM on September 1, 2008

What kind of beauty pageant requires nude pictures? Couldn't she be wearing a bikini under those white bars?
posted by delmoi at 10:35 PM on September 1, 2008

Nude pictures? Jesus. Okay, she's really gone, now.
posted by jayder at 10:37 PM on September 1, 2008

ericb: The second rumor on the page you linked to has also been debunked. The girl pictured holding the baby is Sadie Johnston, Bristol's boyfriend's Sister, and she's holding Trig.
posted by delmoi at 10:37 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Ericb, did you see the source link on the blog post you just linked to for the naked pictures?

here's an excerpt:

So, with THAT NOTE, we OFFICIAL LAUNCH THE SARAH PALIN NAKED PHOTOSHOP CONTENT! Create, inspire, share! Send us your hottest pics of Sarah Palin — email to hollywoodnewsroom@gmail.com. So what’s the top prize? Um, we actually do have an unopened review copy of Tina Fey’s Baby Mama — ON BLU-RAY!

Somehow I don't think that picture is legitimate.
posted by delmoi at 10:40 PM on September 1, 2008

Possibly not the best choice of words...
posted by Artw at 10:43 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

Wow, James Dobson just came out and said that Palin's nude photos are perfectly fine, because god made us all nude to start off with.
posted by troybob at 10:47 PM on September 1, 2008

WikiScandal

What scandal? Are you cuckoo? There's no conflict of interest when a McCain campaign representative edits a VP nominee's page. None whatsoever.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:50 PM on September 1, 2008

Speaking of wikipedia:

he Times is a daily national newspaper published in the United Kingdom since 1785 when it was known as The Daily Universal Register.

The Times is the original "Times" newspaper, lending its name to many other papers around the world, such as The New York Times, The Times of India, and The Irish Times. For specificity it is sometimes referred to outside of (though never within) the UK as the London Times. The paper is the originator of the ubiquitous Times New Roman typeface, originally developed by Stanley Morison of The Times in collaboration with the Monotype Corporation for its legibility in low-tech printing.

The newspaper was printed in broadsheet format for 200 years, but switched to compact size in 2004 in an attempt to appeal to younger readers.

Today, The Times just wrote an article about wikidrama potentially involving a U.S. major party vice presidential candidate.

Just think about that for a moment.
posted by delmoi at 11:01 PM on September 1, 2008

It's also owned by the dude who owns MySpace!
posted by Artw at 11:07 PM on September 1, 2008

I can't fine Levi Johnston's Myspace page...I want an add!
posted by troybob at 11:11 PM on September 1, 2008

It's all a big circle! We're living in the future!
posted by Artw at 11:13 PM on September 1, 2008 [1 favorite]

Being pro polar bear, I think I'll have to vote Democrat in November.

Well, that and I am damned near inspired by the way Barack Obama has made his candidacy not about these trivial issues, but about providing the greatest benefit for the greatest number of Americans.

VPILF, Troopergate, "What is it exactly that the Vice President Does", polar bear hating, Ms. Alaska scholarship competitions, lack of vetting, teen pregnancy, and trivial experience aside, I don't need a reason not to vote for a ticket with Sarah Palin on it other than the fact that she is running under a candidate and platform that is out of touch and damned near adversarial to what I want my country to represent.

Thank you XQUZYPHYR, DaShiv, empath, and Joey Michaels for your thoughts.
posted by clearly at 11:25 PM on September 1, 2008 [2 favorites]

See, now THIS is the stuff.
posted by empath at 12:02 AM on September 2, 2008 [6 favorites]

troybob: "I can't fine Levi Johnston's Myspace page...I want an add!"

You should go for it. Politics is all about networking, after all. And if McCain's vetting team is as crappy as it seems... who knows? You might just land yourself a cabinet position.
posted by Rhaomi at 12:44 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

My goal has always been to sleep my way to the bottom!
posted by troybob at 12:50 AM on September 2, 2008

Interesting: Mayor Palin: A Rough Record. A lot of lopping off of heads, apparently, though much of that was probably par for the course in post-election politics - the newly appointed gets rid of those who supported the opposition and puts their own people into staff positions.

However, even those who supported her weren't exempt:

Governing was no less contentious than campaigning, at least to begin with. She ended up dismissing almost all the city department heads who had been loyal to Stein, including a few who had been instrumental in getting her into politics to begin with. Some saw it as a betrayal. Stambaugh, the police chief and member of Palin's step aerobics class, filed a lawsuit for wrongful termination, alleging that Palin terminated him in part at the behest of the National Rifle Association, because he had opposed a concealed-gun law the NRA supported. He eventually lost the suit. The animosity spawned some talk of a recall attempt, but eventually Palin's opponents on the City Council opted for a more conciliatory route.

or even the librarian:

Stein says that as mayor, Palin continued to inject religious beliefs into her policy at times. "She asked the library how she could go about banning books," he says, because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them. "The librarian was aghast." The librarian, Mary Ellen Baker, couldn't be reached for comment, but news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire her for not giving "full support" to the mayor.

ugh. Firing (or threatening to fire) people who don't immediately snap-to and comply without question to whatever she demands seems to be another special skill Palin hopes to bring to the White House.
posted by taz at 1:02 AM on September 2, 2008 [11 favorites]

Ya know, if McCain really does go down in flames on this Palin thing, we will have the anti-abortionists to thank. Very weird for me to have to give them credit for anything, anytime, anyhow, but there it is.
posted by telstar at 1:04 AM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Enough of the preliminaries: when do we get to unleash Hilary on her?
posted by troybob at 1:08 AM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Yeah, she won't know what hit her after the Clintons take their shots. Do you think Hillary is going to let a 'little miss tammy wynette' take her spotlight?
posted by empath at 1:20 AM on September 2, 2008

She is a TERRIBLE choice. It's a "We're getting creamed here! Let's find us a beauty queen!" move (by Rove?).

It's exactly like that scene in "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" wherein Governor O'Daniel, who is getting roundly beaten by Homer Stokes, is having a bull session on his front porch:

PAPPY
I signed that bill! I signed a dozen
a those aggi-culture bills! Everyone
knows I'm a friend a the fahmuh!
What do I gotta do, start diddlin'
livestock?!

JUNIOR
We cain't do that, Daddy, we might
offend our constichency.

PAPPY
We ain't got a constichency! Stokes
got a constichency!

ECKARD
Them straw polls is ugly.

SPIVEY
Stokes is pullin' ah pants down.

ECKARD
Gonna pluck us off the tit.

SPIVEY
Pappy gonna be sittin' there pants
down and Stokes at the table soppin'
up the gravy.

ECKARD
Latch right on to that tit.

SPIVEY
Wipin' little circles with his bread.

ECKARD
Suckin' away.

SPIVEY
Well, it's a well-run campaign,
midget'n broom'n whatnot.

ECKARD
Devil his due.

SPIVEY
Helluva awgazation.

JUNIOR
Say, I gotten idee.

ECKARD
What sat, Junior?

JUNIOR
We could hire us a little fella even
smaller'n Stokes's.

Pappy whips at him with his hat.

PAPPY
Y'ignorant slope-shouldered sack a
guts! Why we'd look like a buncha
satchel-ass Johnnie-Come-Latelies
braggin' on our own midget! Don't
matter how stumpy! And that's the
goddamn problem right there - people
think this Stokes got fresh ideas,
he's oh coorant and we the past.

ECKARD
Problem a p'seption.

SPIVEY
Ass right.

ECKARD
Reason why he's pullin' ah pants
down.

SPIVEY
Gonna paddle ah little bee-hind.

ECKARD
Ain't gonna paddle it; he's gonna
kick it real hard.

With his mouth forming an O around his dropping cigar, Pappy
looks sadly from one to the other, like a spectator at a
particularly boring tennis match.

SPIVEY
No, I believe he's a-gonna paddle
it.

ECKARD
Well now, I don't believe assa
property scription.

SPIVEY
Well, that's how I characterize it.

ECKARD
Well, I believe it's mawva kickin'
sichation.

SPIVEY
Pullin' ah pants down...

ECKARD
Wipin' little circles with his
bread...

posted by chuckdarwin at 3:13 AM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

So the regular media have jumped upon the rumor that Trig is not Sarah's child and they are covering the pregnancy of the daughter. Did anybody see any regular media question the apparent fact that Palin flew home from Texas to Alaska while her water had broken and then drove even further to a remote small hospital to have her child? This just seems so unbelievable to me and I assumed it would have been disputed by now because I thought it surely must be a misunderstanding.
posted by davar at 3:35 AM on September 2, 2008

It's exactly like that scene in "O Brother, Where Art Thou?"

Usysses: Now, boys, this here thread that's run longer than The Odyssey done went and indirectly referenced it. That's what you call a "inside joke."

Delmar: Are we on the inside part? Cause I don't get it.
posted by kid ichorous at 3:40 AM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

Did anybody see any regular media question the apparent fact that Palin flew home from Texas to Alaska while her water had broken and then drove even further to a remote small hospital to have her child?

That, and the daughter's coincidental weird absence from school for five months (for MONO?) are the biggest danglers for me too, since they smell funny. Those'd be the avenues worth checking out if I was one of them 'investigative journalist' types.

But hey, it's only been three days: If my calculations are correct, at the current rate she'll be implicated in some kind of white slavery / neo-nazi / puppy-sex ring by next Tuesday!
posted by rokusan at 4:12 AM on September 2, 2008

Konolia: It is my understanding that Palin's husband is taking care of the kids...
Palin's husband works at an oil company. Of course he is taking care of the kids, like all parents, but not in a stay-at-home-dad kind of role.

also, please remember that all but one of her children are school age.
But the one child that is not school age has Down Syndrome, and one of the school age children is pregnant.

(Just to be sure: I do not imply that there is a problem with this. I am just surprised that Konolia says that the people in her church love Palin, because based on my experience I would have thought otherwise and I am curious if Palin's running for VP now will have a positive impact on fundamentalist's views of women)
posted by davar at 4:38 AM on September 2, 2008

You might just land yourself a cabinet position.

Hmm, if living near to Russia gives you foreign policy experience. . .

Hey, my dad's a doctor, I could be Director of Health and Human Services!

I grew up near a bunch of corn farms, I could be Secretary of Agriculture!

I used to date someone who worked for a bank: Federal Reserve Board, here I come!

Konolia lives closer to Fort Bragg than I do, so she should probably take Secretary of Defense.
posted by EarBucket at 4:59 AM on September 2, 2008 [9 favorites]

Earbucket, you just put me off my lunch.
posted by chuckdarwin at 5:17 AM on September 2, 2008

All last night, I was tossing and turning and losing sleep, thinking "I can't believe John McCain has nominated a secessionist to be Vice President of the United States".

Upon getting out of bed just a few minutes ago, I decided I would go back to this thread to post "I can't believe John McCain nominated a secessionist to be Vice President of the United States".

Before doing so, I decided to check the comments that were posted since I had gone to bed.

Now, I'm still incredulous about the fact that John McCain nominated a secessionist to be Vice President of the United States, but:

She fired the town librarian for not banning books?

This whole thing is a farce.
posted by Flunkie at 5:40 AM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

And by the way, I can't believe John McCain has nominated a secessionist to be Vice President of the United States.
posted by Flunkie at 5:41 AM on September 2, 2008

I watched early local news see how the Illinois Republican party would spin the weekend's revelations.

Two points are repeated:

1. How dare anyone violate the privacy of a candidate's child? This is a private family issue, and should not be fodder for media attention. How brave of the Palin family to not abort but keep the baby.

2. Sarah Palin ruffled a lot of feathers with her brave stances against corruption in Alaska politics. By being against the "Bridge to Nowhere" and standing up for her values she may have made enemies. Isn't that someone you would want to lead our country? Better that than Barack Obama who did not make enemies or fight corruption serving in one of the most corrupt state governments and working with the Daley machine.

This is the local line in Chicago - I wouldn't doubt she's been asked to step aside to spend more time with her family. If she does step aside she will be seen as a martyr, hounded out by the left.

The Dems should just stick to the overwhelming gaffe this is to overlook vetting a national candidate, and march into something ill-prepared and not fully cognisant of all possible outcomes... like starting the war in Iraq.
posted by readery at 5:50 AM on September 2, 2008

Konolia: Please remember that all but one of her children are school age.
XQUZYPHYR: They're home-schooled.

Of course they are.

Her hairdo gave it away.
posted by rokusan at 5:51 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

And by the way, I can't believe John McCain has nominated a secessionist to be Vice President of the United States.

Not only that but one of the tactics of the party: infiltrating other parties to advance from the agenda.

How does that work? You join another party and cheer and clap when everyone else cheers and claps, and then at an appropriate time in the conversation yell out "and we should let Alaska secede!" and hope everyone agrees?
posted by drezdn at 5:53 AM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

They're home-schooled.

I do not believe that is correct. I beleive the children are in day schools and Bristol is being home schooled - either because she had mono followed by being pregnancy, or simply because she is pregnant. I don't think we have a timeline for when exactly she left her public school.

* * *

Palin continued to inject religious beliefs into her policy at times. "She asked the library how she could go about banning books," he says, because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them.

I have been feeling generally charitable towards Palin in this thread and wary of the fact that she's getting a rough ride for what may not be the best issues upon which to skewer her. I disagree with her on virtually everything, but I am very prepared to be tolerant of people with with views that differ from my own and who make choices or hold beliefs that are different than mine.

However, when you start banning library books, or leaning on librarians to pull titles that don't meet with your specific family's values, that is a bridge too far for me. Seriously. I'm livid now.
posted by DarlingBri at 5:56 AM on September 2, 2008 [6 favorites]

At the very most -- the very most -- the social conservative vote amounts to 40 percent of the electorate, concentrated in the south and rural areas of the rest of the country. McCain already had that vote locked up, if not with much enthusiasm. Enthusiasm might be good for +5 points gain with 40 percent of the electorate. People like konolia, while they represent themselves as "ordinary Americans" and members of some kind of silent "majority" are in fact in a *minority* of Americans who hold absolutist views on abortion, gay rights, and other social issues, who decry science education, sex education, and social tolerance more generally. The claim that a Southern, evangelical, science-hating, proudly ignorant white person is the "average" American is a cherished fiction of the right, and a way of making this minority of poorly educated and historically fading people feel better about their own prejudices and parochialisms. After all, "every" family has teenage pregnancies in it (not mine, not anyone I work with, but every "real American" family, where teenage girls exist to make babies and nothing else).

Ergo, Palin is a desperation move to shore up a base that was not solid. But the choice alienates many who were on the fence -- the crucial independents who care about things like good schools and science based social policy.

The appeal to "women" has clearly backfired, if it was ever on the table.

Obama has this one in the bag. There's no way to spin the Sarah Palin story so it produces *new* votes for McCain. Obama just has to stay focused, serious, and keep his eye on the prize.

I feel way more confident that the konolia's of the world will be crying in their pews on the Sunday after election day than I did before the Palin pick. Well done, McCain!
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:10 AM on September 2, 2008 [6 favorites]

The more I think about this, the more I come to this conclusion:

I'm a huge Obama supporter. Have been for several years now. I've donated money to his campaign, I volunteer about ten hours a week as a canvass captain, and I think he's the most exciting political candidate of my lifetime. That said, if he'd pulled something like this, I'd have to very seriously re-evaluate my support of him. I think it might be enough to convince me that he didn't have the judgement required to be the most powerful person in the world.
posted by EarBucket at 6:17 AM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

konolias, not konolia's
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:26 AM on September 2, 2008

This post over at Jezebel explains perfectly why the wild speculation over the pregnancy/ies of any female member of the Palin family is just fucking inexcusable.
posted by shiu mai baby at 6:30 AM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

And the Washington Post's op-ed page is comparing Palin to Caligula's horse. We're officially in PR disaster mode here. She's got to give a Checkers speech or get the hell off the ticket before they officially nominate her tomorrow night.
posted by EarBucket at 6:30 AM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

The gift that keeps on giving:

The Washington Post reported Sunday, citing an interview with campaign manager Rick Davis, that the vetting process "included reviews of financial and other personal data, an FBI background check and considerable discussion among the handful of McCain advisers nvolved in the deliberations.

The Federal Bureau of Investigation did not participate in the vetting of Gov. Sarah Palin and did not conduct a background check as part of the process, an FBI spokesman said today.

Forget who you want answering that 3am phone call. McCain's doesn't even have a phone, apparently.
posted by orthogonality at 6:33 AM on September 2, 2008

Way late to the party, but...

Regardling Bush #1's choice of Quayle: I remember reading something interesting some years back. It was in a book about George Sr.'s presidential campaign and administration.

In each chapter, the authors focused on a different decision or issue faced by the man and attempted to explain his choices in very real-world, no BS terms. They weren't justifying them or arguing that they were smart moves, just providing plausible explanations for how they came about. They provided a lot of details I hadn't known before and cited a lot of sources. Plus, they had a lot of insidey, Bob Woodward type accounts of conversations among the decision makers.

There were a number of Bush episodes that seemed stupid or just perplexing at the time they happened (the "read my lips" pledge or the part of his campaign where he tried to channel Harry Truman, for examples), but after reading the chapters devoted to them I'd say to myself "Oh! well now it makes sense."

You should understand, when I read a book like this, I frequently do not read it from front to back. I usually start in the middle and skip around a lot. (Don't ask me why; it's just one of my pathologies.) So the Quayle issue was one of the last things I read about, even though it came pretty early in the narrative. When I saw the chapter heading, I said to myself (yes, I talk to myself a lot when I read.) "Finally! They're going to solve the biggest Bush mystery of all time; why the hell did he choose this guy?"

They began by describing how Bush woke up one day during the campaign, peculiarly excited and enthusiastic, and announced that he'd chosen Quayle. No one could talk him out of it. The authors point out the obvious: that the decision was irrational and at odds with accepted practice. There was just no sensible reason to choose him. So, their explanation?

They think maybe George took too much of his thyroid medication that day.

That's it. That's all they could come up with. Apart from that, they said, they were completely stumped.

I've been thinking about all this quite a lot since McCain chose Palin.
posted by Clay201 at 6:35 AM on September 2, 2008 [5 favorites]

McCain already had that vote locked up

Uh, no, he didn't.

Ever hear of Ron Paul?
posted by konolia at 6:36 AM on September 2, 2008

"And when liberals and progressives pounce on rumors like this one about Trig's "true" parentage — whether or not it is true, which I'm pretty sure it's not — or rumors about Republican politicians' sexuality (in the absence of crimes committed) we are conceding that conservatives are right, and personal choices do qualify or disqualify one for certain aspects of participation in public life and this democracy. We are accepting their terms, their definitions of appropriate private behavior, and attempting to use those definitions to defeat their candidates. And once we do that, even if we do "take down" Sarah Palin or whatever Republican candidate in order to protect gay rights or reproductive rights or educational rights, then we've lost on those issues anyway because we've conceded that the underpinnings to the Republican positions on those issues is valid."

QFT. From the Jezebel link above.
posted by shiu mai baby at 6:40 AM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

2. Sarah Palin ruffled a lot of feathers with her brave stances against corruption in Alaska politics. By being against the "Bridge to Nowhere" and standing up for her values she may have made enemies. Isn't that someone you would want to lead our country? Better that than Barack Obama who did not make enemies or fight corruption serving in one of the most corrupt state governments and working with the Daley machine.

I think that this is a really powerful avenue of attack for the GOP, actually. Obama found ways to work with and work within Chicago's corruption and patronage, rather than taking some big stand against it. It doesn't mean that he is dirty, just that he went along to get along with some pretty dirty people.

For all of Palin's weirdness (and there seems to be more weirdness every hour), she made her name challenging a visibly corrupt party structure, and did so with a certain degree of effectiveness. She's not as pure as is being claimed (eg for the bridge before she was against the bridge), but overall she really did address corruption as an issue. That right there lets her and McCain make a clear separation between themselves and the "lets give contracts to my friends" Bush administration, and make insinuations about Obama's overlap with Illinois corruption.
posted by Forktine at 6:44 AM on September 2, 2008

Sarah Palin ruffled a lot of feathers with her brave stances against corruption in Alaska politics. By being against the "Bridge to Nowhere" and standing up for her values she may have made enemies.

Except she wasn't against the Bridge to Nowhere. The fact that she was lying about that was one of the very first embarrassing things to come out about her this weekend.
posted by EarBucket at 6:46 AM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Ya know, if McCain really does go down in flames on this Palin thing, we will have the anti-abortionists to thank.

Funny because yesterday I kept thinking that if Palin ends up being President of the United States, we will have the anti-abortionists to thank.

From the original story appearing inThe Anchorage Daily News Feb. 1, 1997:

City librarian Mary Ellen Emmons will stay, but Police Chief Irl Stambaugh is on his own, Wasilla Mayor Sarah Palin announced Friday. The decision came one day after letters signed by Palin were dropped on Stambaugh's and Emmon's desks, telling them their jobs were over as of Feb. 13.

The mayor told them she appreciated their service but felt it was time for a change. ''I donot feel I have your full support in my efforts to govern the city of Wasilla. Therefore I intend to terminate your employment ...'' the letter said.

Palin said Friday she now feels Emmons supports her but does not feel the same about Stambaugh. As to what prompted the change, Palin said she now has Emmons' assurance that she is behind her. She refused to give details about how Stambaugh has not supported her, saying only that ''You know in your heart when someone is supportive of you.''

So she governs by heart. That's good to know, and reminds me of George Bush who "goes by his gut."

The actions have caused a stir in Wasilla, a town of about 4,600.

When I first started reading about Palin...3 days ago...if was "the city of Wasilla, pop. 8000." Man, that place just keeps getting smaller and smaller.

Emmons, who has been the city's library director for seven years, would not comment about the affair.

I hope Mary Ellen Baker nee Emmons changes her mind.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:48 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Konolia: Uh, no, he didn't.
Ever hear of Ron Paul?

4cm used the term "social conservative," which I think Paul himself might find inapplicable. Paul's conservatism has more to do with a semi-strict constructionism than with any appeal to the social mores (religious or otherwise) of yesteryear.
posted by kid ichorous at 6:49 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Intrade's opened a contract on Palin dropping out. That's an ominous sign.
posted by EarBucket at 6:53 AM on September 2, 2008

Also, Ron Paul got trounced in the primaries by Huckabee, not to mention McCain. Trying to sell the Constitution to the Republican Party at this point in history is like trying to sell books to a bunch of sorority girls on spring break. They're liberated from all that now.
posted by kid ichorous at 6:55 AM on September 2, 2008 [5 favorites]

Senior McCain officials described themselves as "unsurprised" today as huge storms of locusts flew from Wasilla, Alaska and descended upon McCain campaign headquarters. "Locusts were vetted. Locusts were vetted in the vet" said one campaign official, who spoke without attribution out of concern that he would be devoured by a verminous flying cloud.
posted by EarBucket at 6:56 AM on September 2, 2008

I'm talking about the fundamentalists now. There are-or at least were-lots of folks out there nuts for him in that constituency. Seriously.
posted by konolia at 6:56 AM on September 2, 2008

Konolia's right. I know quite a few conservative evangelical/fundamentalist types who are huge Ron Paul supporters. I haven't had a chance to talk to any of them since the Palin pick, though I'm interested to find out how it affects their vote.
posted by EarBucket at 6:59 AM on September 2, 2008

I think they are setting her up to say goodbye.

She will be all0wed to go out as a true american christian maverick. She has every right to now proclaim "This is causing too much of a burden on my family, I respectfully decline the nomination."

The fact that no one even did a back ground check with the FBI is astounding. Didn't anybody learn from the Geraldine Ferrarro problem - her husband had quite a few shady business interests.

She has a very thin resume - that "Bridge to Nowhere" debacle wouldn't stand up to any scrutiny, but it's the only thing the rest of the country has heard of in Alaska politics. The campaigns from this point onward are all just broad strokes to garner the attention of those that just don't pay any real attention, but vote. Voters with any real stake have already decided.

Hell0 VP nominee Lieberman! ( Well, he's there at the convention - all dressed up and ready to go.)
posted by readery at 7:00 AM on September 2, 2008

Ever hear of Ron Paul

Ron Paul -- or really, Bob Barr, since he is the official candidate of the LP -- polls at less than 2 percent nationally in the best of circumstances. His strongest support comes from people who despise McCain and the GOP, and who worked actively (still are) to disrupt the GOP.

So McCain peels of one percent or so of the electorate from the LP, thanks to Palin. And so he gets another 1-2 percent out to the polls from the base. (The percentage of GOP identified social conservatives who might turn out with Palin on the ticket who would have stayed home or voted LP with Lieberman or Ridge or Pawlenty on the ticket).

The fact that McCain *needs* to shore up his "base" is the point. People do not vote for the vice president. He had to make a tactical decision that would appeal to the far right and evangelical holdouts, and avoid antagonizing them with a pro-choice moderate, but he has done so at the expense of a significant number of independents. The polling results are *already* showing this -- Obama is up with a clear bounce for a fourth or fifth straight day in all but one major national poll, and his numbers appear (at least in today's Rasmussen) to be improving as the Palin an Gustav stories play out. Those numbers show independent and moderate support for Obama firming up steadily since his blockbuster speech in Denver was watched by 40 million "real" Americans curious about the cut of his jib. All but three or four major commenters, including titans of the right, have said Obama's speech was just intimidatingly good. Shoot, Pat Buchanan was at a loss for words before calling it the best he'd ever seen. The "close the deal" meme has just died, along with the "experience" meme. The new question is: how desperate is John McCain, or is he just reckless with big decisions? Also, how long will he survive in office? How is his health? Or can you picture Sarah Palin negotiating with Putin or Akhmadinejab?

I've actually met Sarah Palin -- this summer, on the North Slope, albeit for a brief handshake. She's an appealing person, and she is well liked by the working class and Native people I know in Alaska for her personal qualities. But those same people were voting for Obama in large numbers -- and we're not talking latte liberals here -- and I suspect they are more stunned than overjoyed to see Governor Palin on the McCain ticket. They know Sarah Palin. Sarah Palin is a friend of theirs. And she ain't no Joe Biden. Some will no doubt support her and thus McCain, now, out of local pride, and Alaska was going red anyway, despite surprisingly close poll numbers. But knowing Alaska as I do, which is pretty well, I guffawed when I heard she was McCain's pick, and from what I hear the reaction was pretty similar across the state.

The pregnancy thing is beneath discussion and a private family matter. In Alaska, teenage pregnancy is very common in rural communities, and this is an unsurprising revelation even for the governor. Barack Obama is the son of a teenage mom. And decent people do not use children for political cannon fodder. But the story is going to be out there for a long time, and an amplifier of the "culture war" move McCain is making here -- the real Hail Mary pass is to change the election from either the economy or national security and go for the fading but still dangerous terrain of God, Guns, and Gays.

Not gonna work. This election is about big things, and the American people seem to get it for once.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:11 AM on September 2, 2008 [16 favorites]

Intrade's opened a contract on Palin dropping out. That's an ominous sign.

Wow, and it's a bargain. I wish I had some money on there.
posted by Perplexity at 7:15 AM on September 2, 2008

PS -- Five percent of the evangelical/social conservative vote is about 2 percent of the total electorate; if McCain can up his base turnout by five percent with Palin, he'll be thrilled.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:16 AM on September 2, 2008

jayder writes "I don't understand why those Alaska Republican legislators who were interviewed by the New York Times were so open about the fact that Palin was not vetted. Are they trying to destroy her nomination? It would seem that, as Republicans and (presumably) Palin supporters, they would want to give the illusion that she was carefully vetted; instead, they are bending over backwards to confirm everyone's suspicion that she was not vetted, and they are being strangely forthcoming about that information."

Could be they are afraid the fall out will stick to them. IE: they want to avoid anyone casting dispersions on their judgement by making it clear no one asked them about her as it might be assumed McCain consulted with them.
posted by Mitheral at 7:18 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Heh. Go to the RNC's official convention schedule for tonight and you get this:

TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 2, 2008
CHECK BACK SOON FOR UPDATES

Rudy Giuliani's been bumped tonight in favor of Fred Thompson. There's a part of me that wonders if it's because he's replacing Palin on the ticket tomorrow.
posted by EarBucket at 7:22 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Establishment Republicans in Alaska do not like Sarah Palin. They see this as an opportunity to destroy her in the state as she takes down the McCain ticket. They are making lemonade out of lemons.

She's a stupendously stupid pick by McCain. Obama supporters, not only *should* we take the high road here for moral and political reasons alike; but we also don't have any *need* to take the low road. It doesn't lead anywhere that McCain/Palin aren't already headed. After last Thursday, Barack Obama -- and his supporters -- can and should stay above the petty media-driven fray and let the GOP hang itself. It's doing a fine job, almost as impressive as their management of the Iraq war and the Katrina aftermath. After this week, McCain will never get above 45 percent again.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:26 AM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Wah? They bumped noun-verb-9/11 for sleepy Grampy Snooze? We aren't gonna get the terror, terror, terra speech?

My god, no message discipline, no agenda the day of the event? Amateur hour at the RNC.
posted by orthogonality at 7:31 AM on September 2, 2008

Wow, EarBucket. My spidey-sense tingled right there. Good call. I was not getting why they'd drop Rudy, unless the "messy family" backstory was a concern in the current context. Or maybe Rudy took himself out after seeing the disaster Palin looks to be.

I still say bring it on. Replace Palin with a pro-choice, gay-friendly, cross-dressing ethnic New York Catholic with record as corrupt as Palin's and a lot more enemies. Not only will this *infuriate* the dominionist "base" to the point they abandon the GOP at last (some, at least -- and the Dobsons will have egg all over their faces and be very, very angry about it). But it will paint the McCain campaign as being in a total tailspin of poor management.

Nope, McCain handed it to Obama the moment he decided on Palin, and replacing her is only going to make it worse. But that's exactly why I suspect it very well could be in the works.

Because the only way to top Palin is with Rudy! Damn!
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:31 AM on September 2, 2008

"She asked the library how she could go about banning books,"

Now this is a reason to campaign against Palin - this is the single worst thing I've heard about any current candidate.
posted by jb at 7:35 AM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Because the only way to top Palin is with Rudy!
Not just Rudy! Rudy as an emergency fallback!
posted by dirtdirt at 7:36 AM on September 2, 2008

Also, why did McCain write off Minnesota for the way he treated Pawlenty, and possibly Michigan and the Mormon turnout in Nevada and New Mexico for the way he treated Romney?

Because he needs at least one from Michigan and Minnesota to win, and if he loses Nevada and New Mexico, it will be an Obama landslide in process.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:43 AM on September 2, 2008

Not to tamp down the jubilee, but this seems like a play-limp suckerpunch move. Never choose an inexperienced Alaskan governor when the election is on the line! ahahaha! ahahaha! a-ha...

Palin isn't going anywhere, I don't think.
posted by cashman at 7:44 AM on September 2, 2008

Fred Thompson is who I wanted for the top of the ticket originally.

I'd like to kick his tail for not running a more aggressive campaign. I will be interested in hearing him speak tonight.
posted by konolia at 7:47 AM on September 2, 2008

"She asked the library how she could go about banning book"

Oh yeah, now it's on!
posted by jessamyn at 7:49 AM on September 2, 2008 [45 favorites]

Fred Thompson is who I wanted for the top of the ticket originally.

Makes sense. But it would have been a boring election, what with Obama winning 70/30.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:51 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

konolia writes "I will be interested in hearing [Fred Thompson] speak tonight."

Me too; I'm out of Ambien.
posted by orthogonality at 8:06 AM on September 2, 2008 [13 favorites]

we are conceding that conservatives are right, and personal choices do qualify or disqualify one for certain aspects of participation in public life and this democracy.
I wouldn't go so far as to say that they disqualify someone, but would you go so far as to say that personal choices do not matter at all? I completely agree that some of the discussions about her private life are disgusting, but those have nothing to do with Palin's choices. I think that the choices that Palin made herself, like flewing cross country with ruptured membranes do tell us something about her (lack of) judgement (if true).
posted by davar at 8:11 AM on September 2, 2008

PS -- Five percent of the evangelical/social conservative vote is about 2 percent of the total electorate; if McCain can up his base turnout by five percent with Palin, he'll be thrilled.

evangelical/social conservative make up 40% of the population?
posted by afu at 8:12 AM on September 2, 2008

It'll be like five minutes in before you realize that you're on A&E watching a rerun of Melting Pot.
posted by cortex at 8:14 AM on September 2, 2008

And when liberals and progressives pounce on rumors like this one about Trig's "true" parentage — whether or not it is true, which I'm pretty sure it's not — or rumors about Republican politicians' sexuality (in the absence of crimes committed) we are conceding that conservatives are right, and personal choices do qualify or disqualify one for certain aspects of participation in public life and this democracy

But personal choices do qualify or disqualify candidates. The problem is that Left and Right differ on what those qualities are. For the Right, John McCain, service man really matters and says something. For the Left, it matters also, just in a different way.

The pregnancy thing is beneath discussion and a private family matter.

Of course it's not beneath discussion. She's got five kids, four of them under 18, one of them pregnant, one newborn with special needs and dad isn't home taking care of the kids, so who is? Seriously, the GOP has this family first image and then wants to nominate someone for VP who doesn't, at first glance, appear to be very family first?

And yes, there is a double standard here.

I think they are setting her up to say goodbye.

Hell no. I get the impression that Palin's head is too big for her to go for that and if she isn't willingly going, then there's no way to get rid of her, without losing the election.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:23 AM on September 2, 2008

Nope, McCain handed it to Obama the moment he decided on Palin, and replacing her is only going to make it worse.

What if not Palin, but McCain is the one that will be replaced?
Replacing McCain by someone younger would also take a lot of momentum out of those accusations of lack of experience.
posted by sour cream at 8:24 AM on September 2, 2008

What if not Palin, but McCain is the one that will be replaced?

Not in a million years. The GOP couldn't send a worse signal if their delegates lit their hair on fire and ran around the convention floor screaming "We're all gonna die! We're all gonna die!"
posted by EarBucket at 8:29 AM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

I live in Cambridge, MA, and only know one bona fide Republican, so often use him as a sounding board on how 'the other half' thinks. His reaction to the two VP choices was really interesting: he felt that Obama's choice of Biden reflected a real wish to put county/experience first (what with the 'clean' comment and all), and that McCain's choice of Palin reeked of political opportunism. My friend has never been a big fan of McCain (he rooted for Huckabee), but is now saying that he is considering voting for Obama (much to my surprise). I hope this pattern might play out on a broader scale across the country.
posted by AwkwardPause at 8:30 AM on September 2, 2008

evangelical/social conservative make up 40% of the population?

This recent Roll Call article analyzes the question in some detail.
posted by Perplexity at 8:30 AM on September 2, 2008

Ever hear of Ron Paul?

Not lately! And considering that he hasn't been registering so much as a blip on the state-by-state polls for months indicates that he's not really a significant threat in turning, oh I don't know, Alabama or South Carolina blue by virtue of his magical vote-pulling-away abilities.

I know a couple of Ron Paul supporters (all from the West and Pacific Northwest, by the way) -- they're with him to the end specifically because he's an anti-tax isolationist who favors the gold standard. Those folks, my dear, ain't gonna decide this race. They never were.
posted by scody at 8:31 AM on September 2, 2008

The GOP couldn't send a worse signal if their delegates lit their hair on fire and ran around the convention floor screaming "We're all gonna die! We're all gonna die!"

Huh? That worked very well for them in their 2004 convention.
posted by Flunkie at 8:34 AM on September 2, 2008 [8 favorites]

I'm using a very generous estimation of the percentage of the electorate that votes substantially or exclusively on the basis of core social conservative/dominionist principles. It's probably closer to 20 percent if they have high turnout and leaving aside the question of how many millions of new (and young) voters Obama brings out this time. That's why I guessed Palin helps, at the margin, with no negatives, McCain by about one to two percent if she drives base turnout up by five percent.

This is not exact science. Voters can and do surprise the experts and lie to pollsters.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:36 AM on September 2, 2008

I met a Republican while I was out canvassing Sunday afternoon. He thinks Obama's a socialist and doesn't agree with him about anything, but he's voting for him anyway. He's scared that McCain will start WWIII with Russia, and is absolutely horrified by the idea that Palin could become president if something happened to McCain. He thinks that Obama and Biden are both smart and responsible, whatever his policy differences with them, and that the country will survive four years of liberal rule and maybe the GOP will get its act back together. I don't think he's going to be the only one.
posted by EarBucket at 8:38 AM on September 2, 2008

> Ever hear of Ron Paul?

Not lately!

Have you tried Google?
posted by cortex at 8:38 AM on September 2, 2008 [9 favorites]

It'll be like five minutes in before you realize that you're on A&E watching a rerun

That's it. This whole thing, from the announcement to the podcast 'walking' interview, to the stories. It's an episode of Murder She Wrote. Sarah Palin even sounds like a character from there. The coverage, the footage, the style - it's Murder She Wrote. So that explains why I felt like I was waiting for the suckerpunch ending.
posted by cashman at 8:40 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

> Ever hear of Ron Paul?

Not lately!

I'm thankful that, during the past few months, we've been spared the annoyance of having to endure Ron Paul supporters taking up bandwidth just to remind us that he exists. I'm secretly hoping that Ron Paul's alterna-convention is actually some kind of Honey Pot.
posted by mkultra at 8:42 AM on September 2, 2008

And the Washington Post's op-ed page is comparing Palin to Caligula's horse.

Oh, well that's classy.

Wait, Richard Cohen? The guy who thinks he's funnier then Steven Colbert and that Algebra is useless? That guy? Well, I hope no one takes his statements as being indicative of the "left" (not that "the left" has done itself any favors in promoting the ridiculous fake baby story, but those people weren't being printed in the WaPo)

I was thinking about this though, I mean the pick does dovetail nicely with something that's been common in the GOP lately, picking people based on their ideological background, not their talent. It's almost like the hard core christianists are actually unaware of how to even measure talent.

Sarah Palin is just the ultimate expression of this.

McCain already had that vote locked up
Uh, no, he didn't.

Ever hear of Ron Paul? -- konolia

What kind of self-respecting Paulite would be swayed by putting a book banner on the ticket?
posted by delmoi at 8:42 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Have you tried Google?

McCain's vetting team tried that for Sarah Palin. Apparently it doesn't work well yet.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:45 AM on September 2, 2008

What kind of self-respecting Paulite would be swayed by putting a book banner on the ticket?

Books are paid for by TAXES. Burn them all!
posted by Artw at 8:48 AM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Have you tried Google?

Yeah, but it made me all drowsy and irritable.
posted by aihal at 8:53 AM on September 2, 2008

Have you tried Google?

McCain's vetting team tried that for Sarah Palin. Apparently it doesn't work well yet.

Actually they used Webcrawler AND Ask Jeeves.
posted by birdherder at 8:54 AM on September 2, 2008 [6 favorites]

Not lately! And considering that he hasn't been registering so much as a blip on the state-by-state polls for months indicates that he's not really a significant threat in turning, oh I don't know, Alabama or South Carolina blue by virtue of his magical vote-pulling-away abilities.

I was reading, though, that Bob Barr is polling at upwards of 6% in some states. No, he won't turn Alabama or Oklahoma blue, but given how libertarian Nevada is, it could make a difference there.

core social conservative/dominionist principles.

Those aren't the same things. The Dominionists aren't going to vote much for McCain, since he's not One Of Them. And putting a woman in leadership will drive a few away.

It's probably closer to 20 percent if they have high turnout and leaving aside the question of how many millions of new (and young) voters Obama brings out this time.

If 78% evangelicals support McCain (which is what I saw in the last poll), then that's 5-8% below last time out. And last time out, too, you saw a very late surge by evangelicals and fundamentalists motivated by anti-gay-marriage amendments and a stealth get-out-the-vote campaign.

Of course, that same group demanded that Bush spend his political capital on them, and he gave them two SCOTUS seats, Terri Schiavo... and that's it. And in a way, they're kinda mad about it.

That's why I guessed Palin helps, at the margin, with no negatives, McCain by about one to two percent if she drives base turnout up by five percent.

If it pushes McCain back over 80% support from evangelicals, sure. But the ones I've talked to have either already been in the tank for Obama or are really worried about Palin's inexperience and McCain's decision making. He might net the 3% overall (which assumes that 8% pickup from evangelicals) he needs to pull even, but that assumes Palin doesn't drive off more than that just by being her.

It's what some person on the web said somewhere in an article I can't remember -- a veep pick doesn't really help you that much but it can hurt you a heck of a lot.
posted by dw at 8:57 AM on September 2, 2008

And putting a woman in leadership will drive a few away.

Nah, symbolically she’s his wife. Like Bush and Condi.
posted by Artw at 8:58 AM on September 2, 2008

However, when you start banning library books, or leaning on librarians to pull titles that don't meet with your specific family's values, that is a bridge too far for me. Seriously. I'm livid now.

It's none of our business if Palin wants to have a few little book burnings.

When liberals and progressives pounce on her desire to torch literature, we concede that conservatives are right, and that personal choices do qualify or disqualify one for certain aspects of participation in public life and this democracy.

Why don't you liberal communist Muslims just mind your own business?
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:05 AM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

The Mat-Su Cinema
posted by neroli at 9:07 AM on September 2, 2008

dw, to be clear, I agree with you entirely. I am posing a worst-case scenario where Palin really galvanizes evangelical voters and dominionist conservatives (not always the same people) and does drive the numbers up to ca. 2004. It's still from a smaller pool, in a year when it matters less, and Obama still wins unless McCain can take a majority of all independents.

The cultural argument is that a large number of "Reagan democrat" types can be bamboozled into supporting the dominionist platform with homophobia and abortion hysteria (so to speak). Add a little immigrant bashing, except McCain can't afford to lose New Mexico or Michigan.

And the message of the Obama campaign to the American people is that we're smarter than that, and we've had enough of it.

We're missing the obvious equation here: Sarah Palin is George Bush with street cred.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:10 AM on September 2, 2008

She does coke?
posted by Artw at 9:13 AM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

This is a pretty damning indictment of Palin's experience as a mayor.
posted by empath at 9:22 AM on September 2, 2008 [12 favorites]

Obama's doubled his lead in the Rasmussen tracking poll overnight, from 3 points to 6. That almost certainly means he had a double-digit lead in yesterday's sample. It could be an outlier, and we'll know better when we see tomorrow's numbers, but it sure doesn't look like Palin's helping any.
posted by EarBucket at 9:26 AM on September 2, 2008

This is a pretty damning indictment of Palin's experience as a mayor.

Wow. She IS Bush!
posted by Artw at 9:28 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Blazecock Pileon, no worries - I know how hard it is to tell the difference between public libraries and private vaginas. Especially since they're both increasingly being regulated by the state.
posted by DarlingBri at 9:29 AM on September 2, 2008 [6 favorites]

This is a pretty damning indictment of Palin's experience as a mayor.

Wow. She turned rural Alaska into Renaissance Florence. McCain is going find himself with a mysterious stiletto-shaped wound in his belly if he ever gives in to his obvious desire to hit it. If he doesn't, maybe he'll get away with a light poisoning or an unfortunate accidental smothering.
posted by nasreddin at 9:30 AM on September 2, 2008

Oh, wow.
posted by cavalier at 9:30 AM on September 2, 2008

Okay, there are clearly a lot of questions she should be answering. Where is she today, and why isn't she doing at least 1 interview talking about all this? The press should be questioning her intensely over all this information about her job record.
posted by cashman at 9:32 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Wow, empath, that answers a lot of my questions such as: Were books banned so that the librarian could keep her job? According to your link : City residents rallied to the defense of the City Librarian and against Palin's attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew her termination letter.

But it is the information about the way she budgets that is really disheartening-- spend the state's surplus but borrow for future projects. Leave your small town with a new $22 Million debt for unnecessary projects. Proving that she is fiscally irresponsible should dim some of her shiny new toy status.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:37 AM on September 2, 2008

But it is the information about the way she budgets that is really disheartening-- spend the state's surplus but borrow for future projects. Leave your small town with a new $22 Million debt for unnecessary projects. Proving that she is fiscally irresponsible should dim some of her shiny new toy status.

Are you kidding? That's proof that she's Republican governing material. After all, that's exactly the same policy as the Republicans have followed in Washington for the last decade.
posted by nasreddin at 9:39 AM on September 2, 2008

City residents rallied to the defense of the City Librarian and against Palin's attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew her termination letter.

Well, that's encouraging. Maybe they should build a campaign slogan off of this:

PALIN '08: TECHNICALLY, NEVER ACTUALLY FIRED A LIBRARIAN!
posted by Flunkie at 9:42 AM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Wow, that Sullivan piece is something. I told you people who knew Alaska guffawed when she was picked, and this explains it -- this stuff is all pretty widely known.

She's a genuine Tracy Flick, with guns.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:42 AM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

Sarah Palin, member of the Alaskan Independence Party

"In March, 2008, Sarah Palin recorded a video welcoming the convention of the secessionist Alaskan Independence Party (AIP), saying 'we have a great promise to be a self-sufficient state, made up of the hardest working, most grateful Americans in our nation.'

In October, 2007, Dexter Clark, the AIP's vice chairman, was recorded on video saying that Palin had been a registered member of the AIP before switching to the GOP to be viable.

In the same video, Clark says 'the Federal goverment is just plain a monster' and 'we don't say we are Americans, we say we are Alaskans.'

Clark's comments were delivered at 'The Second North American Secessionist Convention' in Chattanooga, Tennessee.

AIP's motto is 'Alaska First. Alaska Always'

[video | 01:23]

"John McCain has a problem with patriotism -- he keeps talking about putting America first, but his running mate, Sarah Palin, was a member of the Alaska Independence Party, a political party that would put Alaska first by seceding from the U.S. She addressed that group -- this year...

Okay, imagine, just imagine, a Democratic candidate being a member of a party where people say they're not Americans. It would be over. Over.

This also means another warped GOP attack off the table, too. While McCain should have been vetting his running mate, he was instead attacking Obama's patriotism. That's over. McCain can never again even raise that issue when his running mate wanted her state to be its own country.

John McCain did not vet Sarah Palin. His running mate belonged to a party that wanted to secede from the U.S. When was the last time anyone on a ticket wanted that? 1856? 1860?" ^*
posted by ericb at 9:44 AM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

McCain Fought Teen Pregnancy Programs.
posted by ericb at 9:46 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

She turned rural Alaska into Renaissance Florence

Actually, this sounds like many an Alaskan town's politics to me. Usually, the lines are drawn between prominent families, but the surge of far right evangelical power in the last decade has disrupted the older networks of corruption and replaced them with new ones that look in every respect like business as usual, except they've somewhat redrawn the lines for white/Native relations.

And anyone familiar with the rural South knows this pattern too. It's been cleaned up a lot in recent years -- you can think of Alaska as being like, say, Alabama or Texas in the 1950s in some respects. Local politics, far off the federal radar or national media radar -- it gets ugly. In fact, one thing everyone hates in Alaska is the federal government, which occasionally comes in to enforce rules the rest of us take somewhat for granted (the Stevens prosecution is seen as overkill in Alaska, for example, given that he's done so many much more corrupt things than let VECO fix his house up).
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:48 AM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Obama's doubled his lead in the Rasmussen tracking poll overnight, from 3 points to 6. That almost certainly means he had a double-digit lead in yesterday's sample.

Not once folks realize that she single-handedly kept the Soviet Union from even considering a U.S. invasion via Alaska for nearly 20 years!
posted by scody at 9:50 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Boy, this Palin thing is sure going like a house on fire.
posted by dirtdirt at 9:54 AM on September 2, 2008

'October Surprise' Over Palin Investigation?

"Is the McCain campaign afraid of an 'October surprise' involving vice-presidential pick Gov. Sarah Palin of Alaska?

The Alaska state senator running an investigation of Gov. Palin says the McCain campaign is using stall tactics to prevent him from releasing his final report by Oct. 31, four days before the November election.

'It's likely to be damaging to the Governor,' said Senator Hollis French, a Democrat, appointed the project manager for a bi-partisan State Senate Legislative Counsel Committee investigation of claims that Palin abused her office to get the Alaska public safety commissioner, Walt Monegan, fired."

An Anchorage Daily News story suggests that Palin's lawyer is helping stall the investigation. He's trying to get the probe into the hands of a governor-appointed board:

"The state has hired a private lawyer to represent Gov. Sarah Palin's office in the Legislature's investigation into the firing of former Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan. The lawyer already has challenged whether lawmakers even have authority to oversee the inquiry.

...Van Flein said the investigation should be handled by the state Personnel Board, not the Legislature, because it's 'statutorily mandated' to handle ethics cases. The three-member Personnel Board is appointed by the governor."

And he's making it difficult for Special Counsel Steve Branchflower to interview Palin:

"Branchflower hasn't been able to set up an interview with Palin. French said the state will fly Branchflower to wherever Palin is on the campaign trail if needed.

'Clearly the governor's new political role will make it more challenging for her to make time for this investigation,' French wrote. But Palin needs to be interviewed sometime in September, he said.

Van Flein said the investigation is 'bad timing' in the middle of a presidential campaign. He said he couldn't guarantee her availability this month."^*

posted by ericb at 9:54 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

This thread has now made it to the Kennedy administration. Presumably we can expect a complete derail around comments 1974 and 2001.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:55 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

make that the Johnson administration.
posted by wabbittwax at 9:56 AM on September 2, 2008

why is the Sullivan piece so damming when it quotes one person with little citation?
I know a guy who has probably 100 books about Clinton (Bill) and these are all 'eye wittiness" to some personal evil he perpetuated against them or other individuals.
I sorta wonder if folks here are reading anything besides Atlantic, HufPo and Kos.
Susan Estrich, for one example...and an 'inside peek' at evangelicals here
I simply mean, why be so dismissive with such scant hearsay evidence? Why so cocksure? Why all the confetti around here?
Oh I know why, but it's so fucking predictable my lovely friends.
posted by dawson at 9:59 AM on September 2, 2008

what I meant re the books about Bill is simply that a lot of people have a lot of axes to grind and just saying a thing does not make it true,or even stick. What he 'overcame' to be POTUS was much, much more than this flouncy tempest in a teapot.
posted by dawson at 10:02 AM on September 2, 2008

Palin Received Millions In Earmarks, Clouding Reformer Image

"News continues to break regarding vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin that could, in the long term, pose serious problems to one of the main thrusts of the McCain campaign: the message of conservative reform.

The presentation of Palin as an anti-earmark, fiscally conscious pol is challenged by a review of recent political records. As mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, she hired the firm of Hoffman Silver Gilman & Blasco to help secure spending projects for her town. The expenditure apparently paid off. From 2000 through 2002, Wasilla received more than $5.5 million in federal cash for transportation and social service projects.

According to the group Citizens Against Government Waste, the city received $1 million for a bus facility in 2000. In 2001, the Wasilla Health Center was granted a half million dollars for a community mental health center. That same year the city's emergency shelter also was granted $500,000 for a transitional living program for homeless youth. A year later, the Wasilla regional dispatch center received $1 million in pork, the city was granted $1.5 million for water and sewer improvements, and received an additional $600,000 for a bus facility.

The use of the earmark system that -- as a vice presidential candidate -- Palin now criticizes continued into her tenure as governor. As the Los Angeles Times reported, the state of Alaska requested 31 earmarks worth $197.8 million for next year's federal budget. And according to Citizens Against Government Waste, Alaska received $379,669,715 in pork during fiscal year 2008, nearly $100 million more than any other state.

...John McCain has made earmark bashing a cornerstone of his campaign, calling the spending projects a 'gateway to corruption.' And since taking on the responsibility of running mate, Palin too has presented herself as a thorn in the side of the earmark culture."

posted by ericb at 10:02 AM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

From the Sullivan piece:

When Sarah's mother-in-law, a highly respected member of the community and experienced manager, ran for Mayor, Sarah refused to endorse her.

Didn't I read somewhere a quote from Palin's mother in law, questioning whether Palin was qualified for the VP spot? I guess this explains why.
posted by jayder at 10:04 AM on September 2, 2008

I sorta wonder if folks here are reading anything besides Atlantic, HufPo and Kos.

Yes. Check out http://mudflats.wordpress.com/, a blog about Alaskan politics written by an Alaskan.

Also check out Anchorage Daily News. There's a ton of information out there.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:05 AM on September 2, 2008

why is the Sullivan piece so damming when it quotes one person with little citation?

If you click the link the person who wrote it signed her real name and included her email address. If you question it, feel free to email her, but it's worth nothing that I've seen nearly everything she mentions backed up by MSM reporting.
posted by empath at 10:07 AM on September 2, 2008

Michelle Obama was raked over the coals and denounced as unpatriotic for an awkwardly-worded sentence in a speech. Sarah Palin belonged to an organization that wanted to secede from the Union. I'm sure the conservatives will be excoriating her treasonous lack of patriotism any minute now.

Rudy Giuliani's been bumped tonight in favor of Fred Thompson. There's a part of me that wonders if it's because he's replacing Palin on the ticket tomorrow.

Replacing Palin with Giuliani would make McCain look even more wishy-washy. We know his short list was Lieberman, Tom Ridge, and a player-to-be-named-later. Romney and Huckleberry didn't make the short list (neither did Cheney, who McCain said in 2001 that he'd pick). Giuliani's the ideological opposite of Palin, and he'd probably lose at least as many right-wingers as he'd gain moderates.

But, how many of you would have considered voting for John Edwards in the primary if it came out he was having an Affair?

Sure, I would have considered it (I ended up supporting Obama, but would've gladly supported Edwards if he were the nominee). I don't think other people's family lives are my business, and John Edwards wasn't running on a platform that wants to control other people's personal lives. Palin is, so it matters if she doesn't walk the walk while she's talking the talk. (Actually, Edwards' lying about the affair bothers me more than the affair itself does, but more because it's stupid to lie in a situation like that when you're going to get caught.)
posted by kirkaracha at 10:07 AM on September 2, 2008

The Campbell Brown smackdown jamstigator was referring to is also here. It wasn't nearly as funny as the James Carville/Stephanie Miller/Michele Bachmann Turner Overdrive smackdown later last night, though.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 10:09 AM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Congresswoman Tammy Baldwin of Wisconsin:

"A real test of a presidential candidate’s judgment is his choice of a running mate — the person who is next in line to become the commander in chief. As we face serious global challenges and wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, John McCain has chosen someone with virtually no national security or foreign policy experience. This choice calls into question both Sen. McCain’s judgment and a McCain administration’s ability to lead a nation in crisis. To the extent that this choice represents an effort to court supporters of Hillary Clinton’s historic candidacy, McCain misjudges the reasons so many voters rallied around her candidacy. It was Sen. Clinton’s experience, skill and commitment to change, especially in the areas of health care and energy policy, that drew such strong support. Sarah Palin’s opposition to Roe v. Wade and her support of Big Oil will not draw Democrats from the Obama-Biden ticket."

posted by ericb at 10:12 AM on September 2, 2008

Thanks Brandon, I'll look at those, but still...I hate this kinda gotcha politics shit and I think some people are playing right into a grand trap...obviously I could be totally wrong.
posted by dawson at 10:13 AM on September 2, 2008

Palin Candidacy Death Watch.
posted by ericb at 10:16 AM on September 2, 2008

Thanks Brandon, I'll look at those, but still...I hate this kinda gotcha politics shit and I think some people are playing right into a grand trap...obviously I could be totally wrong.

In what world does looking into someone's horrific (but mercifully small) record in government count as "gotcha politics"? And then what doesn't count as "gotcha politics"?
posted by nasreddin at 10:16 AM on September 2, 2008

Obama on Palin 'experience':

"My understanding is that Gov. Palin’s town, Wassilla, has I think 50 employees. We've got 2500 in this campaign. I think their budget is maybe 12 million dollars a year – we have a budget of about three times that just for the month...Our ability to manage large systems and to execute I think has been made clear over the past couple of years and certainly in terms of the legislation I’ve passed in the past couple of years, post-Katrina."

posted by ericb at 10:17 AM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Interesting. Seems that not everyone on the Christian Right has gotten the memo that they're supposed to be embracing the Palins as the paragons of pro-life values. Oh, and those average American families (even those who weren't leaning to McCain) who are all going to forget about policy issues because they will "relate" to Sarah Palin so strongly that they will now be more sympathetic to the GOP ticket? Some of them aren't impressed, either.
posted by scody at 10:17 AM on September 2, 2008

I was wrong to have said stuff about the daughter and boyfriend. I've always disliked the effects of accidental celebrity and how it gives us permission to target people who don't have a choice to be publicly scrutinized. I think Palin has done her daughter no favors, and that her own actions are fair game, because she used her "story" and her family to boost her thin resume. I might seek some justification in the fact that we're talking about nomination to a powerful position, or that details surrounding it have created a crazy upside-down world in which Republicans are cheering teen pregnancy; but I can't really say that makes me comfortable about my own commentary wrt those who didn't have a choice in all this. I apologize, and I'll try to do better.
posted by troybob at 10:18 AM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

just saying a thing does not make it true,or even stick

Oh, you mean Barack Obama is not a radical Muslim terrorist who eats the flag for breakfast with milk poured by his America-hating wife?

Shit, now you tell us.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:20 AM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

Photos of Bristol Palin partying with Captain Morgan and friends.
posted by iviken at 10:24 AM on September 2, 2008

In what world does looking into someone's horrific (but mercifully small) record in government ...

I'm not referring to that, but to the OMG Jerry Springer stuff. I don't care, I don't care where Obama goes to church and what his pastor thinks either. Or about Rezco (sp) or Biden and asbestos really. I mean at some point a character question enters in, but I find much of this distasteful and pathetic. I'm heartened by the idea that Obama himself is above it and wants to be elected because he's smart change, not because a teenager in Alaska got preggers.
Try the shoe on the other foot. You gotta know this is bottom of the barrel 3 pointer attempt from the opponents half kinda desperation stuff.
posted by dawson at 10:29 AM on September 2, 2008

Giuliani's the ideological opposite of Palin, and he'd probably lose at least as many right-wingers as he'd gain moderates.

Indeed. The howl from the Christian conservatives would be intense.

But really ... I'd be completely gobsmacked if McCain didn't try to stay on this horse, even if it plunged over a cliff. If Palin steps out, it'd go down as the biggest presidential campaign gaffe since the dawn of the television age. If she stays in and McCain loses, McCain's loss goes down in history as a footnote in Obama's Wikipedia entry.

McCain's wishing right now that he vetted her better. He'd have done better with a different no-name candidate.

You know who's looking like a great Republican candidate right now? I'd say Bobby Jindal has a great line on 2012 and 2016.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 10:30 AM on September 2, 2008

Photos of Bristol Palin partying with Captain Morgan and friends.

And the spotlight continues to heat up!
posted by ericb at 10:30 AM on September 2, 2008

Photos of Bristol Palin partying with Captain Morgan and friends.

That's not Bristol Palin, that's her boyfriend's sister.
posted by empath at 10:32 AM on September 2, 2008

I have been following this story since it broke via this thread. I have followed it rabidly over the past 72 hours. I am now very happy to see the mainstream media run with the story. That Carville piece on Larry King was priceless. All of the helpless tittering in the background is, I think, how most people serious about politics view this nomination.
posted by msali at 10:34 AM on September 2, 2008

Photos of Bristol Palin partying with Captain Morgan and friends.

That see, what the fuck is that about. I didn't click the link, so perhaps it's a joke? I don't wanna be near that kinda sick shit.
Anyway, time for me to work a bit.
posted by dawson at 10:36 AM on September 2, 2008

Photos of Bristol Palin partying with Captain Morgan and friends.

Since this has nothing to do with Sarah Palin's candidacy and is really just a smear on a 17-year-old girl, I'm not sure why you posted it.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:40 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Uncomfortable Schadenfreude reading the Levi mock blog and what the media's doing with the unmarried teen, self-declared redneck stud, shotgun wedding story. Hardly daring to feel relief that this publicity fiasco may put Obama in the White House and that Michael Moore may have had it wrong about which side the doofuses were on when it comes to "Let's snatch defeat from the jaws of victory."
posted by nickyskye at 10:41 AM on September 2, 2008

I'm starting to become afraid that Palin will withdraw, and McCain will fix his (now obvious) mistake with a bona fide VP candidate -- or at least someone who remotely resembles a bona fide candidate. Palin staying in the race may be the best thing for Obama right now.
posted by pardonyou? at 10:41 AM on September 2, 2008

McCain's wishing right now that he vetted her better.

I doubt it. He's a maverick alright and people laude him for that, while forgetting that you have to make good decisions. Instead McCain behaved like some simple minded idiot and went with his gut. You know else who went with his gut?George Bush. Do we really need more of that?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:42 AM on September 2, 2008

Also: whoa. No wonder Alaskans "like" her, I'd like someone handing out big fat checks for nothing. Paging Dire Straits! We've got a theme song job for you over here...
posted by bitter-girl.com at 10:45 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

I agree that public scrutiny of the Palin children should be 'out-of-bounds,' but it's going to happen ... and get even more intense. That's the state of modern politics.

"At several points throughout the process, McCain's team warned Palin that the scrutiny into her private life would be intense and that there was nothing she could do to prepare for it."^*
posted by ericb at 10:45 AM on September 2, 2008

I have been following this story since it broke via this thread. I have followed it rabidly over the past 72 hours. I am now very happy to see the mainstream media run with the story. That Carville piece on Larry King was priceless. All of the helpless tittering in the background is, I think, how most people serious about politics view this nomination.

I think you mean "most people serious about governance.

Palin's nomination was politics. It was nothing but politics.
posted by Flunkie at 10:47 AM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

From here: While Sarah was Mayor of Wasilla she tried to fire our highly respected City Librarian because the Librarian refused to consider removing from the library some books that Sarah wanted removed. City residents rallied to the defense of the City Librarian and against Palin's attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew her termination letter. People who fought her attempt to oust the Librarian are on her enemies list to this day. Sarah complained about the “old boy’s club” when she first ran for Mayor, so what did she bring Wasilla? A new set of "old boys". Palin fired most of the experienced staff she inherited. At the City and as Governor she hired or elevated new, inexperienced, obscure people, creating a staff totally dependent on her for their jobs and eternally grateful and fiercely loyal--loyal to the point of abusing their power to further her personal agenda, as she has acknowledged happened in the case of pressuring the State’s top cop.

Sarah Palin is following the Bush Playbook, all right.

We need leaders, not people handing out jobs to incompetent cronies.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 10:52 AM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

I have been following this story since it broke via this thread. I have followed it rabidly over the past 72 hours.

Yeah, I'm glued to the Internet like my grandma watching Days of Our Lives. I'm all like, hush y'all, Bookhouse's stories are on.
posted by Bookhouse at 10:54 AM on September 2, 2008 [20 favorites]

Flunkie: You're right, but I said 'politics' rather deliberately, because James Carville is about as pure of a political beast as one could be. Governance? Don't even get me started.
posted by msali at 10:56 AM on September 2, 2008

scanning this behemoth and it's a bit old but this exchange is imbalanced

Flunkie: "1 Timothy 2 seems pretty clear - women shouldn't be in positions of authority. They should be silent."

Quonsar: ...said paul, writing to a 1st century church in a pastoral letter, so called because they deal with the qualifications and duties of pastors. nice try, but no cigar. if you are going to quote the bible it would serve you well to equip yourself with even a TINY modicum of knowing WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.
posted by quonsar at 5:29 PM on August 31 [1 favorite]

from my experiences being a member of a religion that split primarily over the issue of woman in office, Flunkie is using this bit of biblical wisdom in exactly the manner as those opposed to woman in office do.

So while it may not be as nuanced, or even informed, as Quonsar's view - the use of this passage as rhetoric in this context does pass the test of "knowing WHAT THE FUCK YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT."
posted by sloe at 10:59 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

iviken's link was relevant to me. I'm a friend and political ally of Captain Morgan, and I like to know who he's consorting with.
posted by Faint of Butt at 11:03 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

McCain Campaign Tries To Block Ron Paul From Convention Floor
posted by homunculus at 11:03 AM on September 2, 2008

Video: Should Palin daughter be in the political spotlight?
posted by ericb at 11:03 AM on September 2, 2008

One Republican strategist with close ties to the campaign described the candidate's closest supporters as "keeping their fingers crossed" in hopes that additional information does not force McCain to revisit the decision. According to this Republican, who would discuss internal campaign strategizing only on condition of anonymity, the McCain team used little more than a Google Internet search as part of a rushed effort to review Palin's potential pitfalls. Just over a week ago, Palin was not on McCain's short list of potential running mates, the Republican said.
posted by EarBucket at 11:08 AM on September 2, 2008

This election is about big things, and the American people seem to get it for once.
I really, really hope that's true.
posted by cell divide at 11:08 AM on September 2, 2008

I wasn't going to respond to Quonsar's apoplectic response to me, because I didn't want to derail the thread further. But since sloe brought it up again, I will say what I otherwise would have said at that time:

The idea that the extreme misogyny contained in 1 Timothy 2 is clearly and unequivocably applicable only to selecting bishops, merely because it's part of a letter about selecting bishops and other church matters, strikes me as, at best, facile.

It directly states that women should be silent. It directly states that women should not be in positions of authority over men. It directly states that the reason for these things is that women are directly and solely responsible for mankind's fall from grace with god.

To be clear (again), I find this attitude abhorrent. But the idea that its author did not mean these awful, yet fundamentally basic, ideas to be applicable in any situation except one specific one seems, frankly, like wishful thinking.

I'll shut up about this now.
posted by Flunkie at 11:08 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

McCain Campaign Tries To Block Ron Paul From Convention Floor

Heh, I bet CNN will be all over Republican party "splits", and whether McCain has healed rifts with the Paulites, and yadda yadda yadda.

No-one says "not!" after sarcastic statements anymore, do they?
posted by Artw at 11:10 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

the McCain team used little more than a Google Internet search as part of a rushed effort to review Palin's potential pitfalls.

They should have done it BEFORE they expurgated Wikipedia.
posted by Artw at 11:12 AM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

They should have done it BEFORE they expurgated Wikipedia.

Mavericks make their own rules.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:26 AM on September 2, 2008

Heh. Of course if it had happened like that it would have been the perfect metaphor for, well, everything the Republicans have done in the last 8 years really.
posted by Artw at 11:36 AM on September 2, 2008

Ever hear of Ron Paul?

Not lately!

I got a good chuckle last night watching footage of protesters outside the RNC when I realized that one had a Ron Paul shirt on. All I could think was keep hope alive, sister, keep hope alive.
posted by middleclasstool at 11:39 AM on September 2, 2008

More on the story the media dare not ~~inflate~~ tell...
posted by Artw at 11:45 AM on September 2, 2008

Photos of Bristol Palin [...]

Just stop this shit. It's cruel and totally irrelevant. The important issue here is that McCain has chosen someone completely unqualified as his running-mate. Sarah Palin's family has nothing to do with it.
posted by klausness at 11:46 AM on September 2, 2008 [7 favorites]

With the latest bits about Palin's involvement in the Alaska Independence Party in mind, her boneheaded remark about "what a VP does" suddenly makes a hell of a lot more sense:

"We want to make sure that that VP slot would be a fruitful type of position, especially for Alaskans and for the things that we’re trying to accomplish up here for the rest of the U.S., before I can even start addressing that question."

Emphasis added, obvs.
posted by shiu mai baby at 11:47 AM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Alright, the AIP stuff is just priceless. I don't have words. No-drama Obama's having the day of his life.

Also, I agree with DarlingBri, Jessamyn et al about the attempt to get library books banned... am also very, very curious as to what those titles might have been.

As to the predictions that Palin will withdraw--how?? in the middle of the RNC? How can they possibly get another person on the ticket (you know, they have to make the little introductory video for this person and all) in the next two days?

McCain's got himself a tiger by the tail. I love politics but never could have imagined a campaign as entertaining.
posted by torticat at 11:52 AM on September 2, 2008

Wow, a lot of DailyKos readers think that she's gonna withdraw. A surprisingly high number.
posted by lunit at 11:55 AM on September 2, 2008

And her total foreign travel experience consists of a one trip to visit Alaskan National Guard troops in Kuwait and Germany and a second trip to Ireland.

Update: Palin lied about visiting Ireland as part of her foreign policy experience

"She didn't visit Ireland, which is what the McCain-Palin campaign claimed to Politico's Ben Smith on Saturday. She had a short refueling stopover, which means at best her extensive Irish diplomacy amounted to buying a sweater and a beer mug in the Shannon airport."

posted by ericb at 11:56 AM on September 2, 2008 [6 favorites]

The lawyer who conducted the vetting for McCain is on record (yesterday) as saying:

Arthur B. Culvahouse Jr., the lawyer who conducted the review, told The Associated Press in an interview Monday that Palin underwent a "full and complete" examination before McCain chose her. Asked whether everything that came up as a possible red flag during the review already has been made public, Culvahouse said: "I think so. Yeah, I think so. Correct."

So, McCain knew everything that would come out and yet picked her anyway. That seems like an astonishing political misjudgment, or, an act of desperation.

McCain is now faced with the dilemna that hockey coaches have in the last minutes of a close game, say 3 to 2. Pull the goalie, try to swarm the other team's net and tie it up. Ooops, the other team scores on the empty net, so it's 4 to 2. Now what? Put the goalie back in (pick another VP) and try to keep it respectable, or, keep the goalie pulled and risk it going to a historic defeat with the moral victory of "fighting to the end".
posted by Rumple at 11:58 AM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

Culvahouse is lying. It was an Ask Jeeves vetting process, nothing more. They've got to lie because otherwise the revelation that they didn't vet her would be a devastating indictment of McCain's judgment.
posted by jayder at 12:06 PM on September 2, 2008

Now what? Put the goalie back in (pick another VP) and try to keep it respectable, or, keep the goalie pulled and risk it going to a historic defeat with the moral victory of "fighting to the end".

This is complicated by the fact that our imaginary hockey coach has huge groups of fans sitting behind the bench, screaming conflicting instructions (Pull the goalie! Don't pull the goalie!) and outright threats (If you don't pull the goalie, you're fired! If you pull the goalie, I'll never come to another one of your games!).
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:07 PM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

Abstinence from vaginal intercourse being (no one will deny) the only foolproof method of avoiding pregnancy or STDs.

Uh, I thought a primary doctrine of mainstream Christianity is in direct contradiction of that statement, but, I guess I'm not understanding that whole virgin birth thing.
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:07 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Obama has this one in the bag.

We can hope, but as a friend of mine says, the Democrats are masters at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.
posted by small_ruminant at 12:07 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin is thrown into media major league -- "The Republican vice presidential nominee discovers that everything’s fair game — even her family."
posted by ericb at 12:09 PM on September 2, 2008

2000?
posted by mdonley at 12:10 PM on September 2, 2008

As to the predictions that Palin will withdraw--how?? in the middle of the RNC? How can they possibly get another person on the ticket (you know, they have to make the little introductory video for this person and all) in the next two days?

I don't think she's going to withdraw. But I think that, if she is, yes, it's going to be in the middle of the RNC. They'll nominate her, and she'll give her I-Didn't-Have-An-Abortion spiel, there will be thunderous applause, and she will say "But the liberals are forcing me from this race with their dastardly attacks on my family, so I must decline the nomination".

There will be shouts of "No, no, no!". McCain will come out and console the feisty, strong, yet tearful lady, and he will raise his hands to calm the crowd. "My friends, we are all sorry to hear this, but we have to respect the governor's decision to defend her family from the liberals!" The crowd goes wild.

"And that's why I'm proud to announce to you my new pick for Vice President - a man who will defend women against the disgusting attacks of the liberals, and make sure that those eighteen million cracks in the glass ceiling shatter it for good!" Palin wipes a tear, smiles broadly, and claps heartily.

From the skies, the deus ex machina red pickup truck is lowered. "My friends! The next! Vice President! Of the United States! Fred! Thompson!"

The crowd explodes in ecstasy. McCain and Palin stand in awe of the pickup and the man inside it, clapping wildly.

A handler pokes Fred, who then works up the energy to raise a hand in a halfhearted wave to the crowd.
posted by Flunkie at 12:12 PM on September 2, 2008 [12 favorites]

Asked whether everything that came up as a possible red flag during the review already has been made public, Culvahouse said: "I think so. Yeah, I think so. Correct."

So the best case is that anything else that comes up, they didn't find? Because this does not seem to be ending.
posted by Artw at 12:12 PM on September 2, 2008

I know the passport rules have been lax between the U.S. and Canada, but please tell me that she's has some sort of relationship with the local Canadian Province government. Please...
posted by garlic at 12:18 PM on September 2, 2008

McCain's campaign manager: "This election is not about issues."
posted by EarBucket at 12:18 PM on September 2, 2008

Sally Quin | Washington Post -- Palin's Pregnancy Problem

"My first reaction was shock. Then anger. John McCain chose a running mate simply because she is a woman and one who appealed to the Republican's conservative evangelical base. Now, with news that Palin's 17-year-old unmarried daughter is pregnant, McCain's pick may not even find support among 'family values' voters.

...McCain's choice of Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as his running mate is a cynical and calculated move. It is a choice made to try to win an election. It is a political gimmick. And it's very high risk. I find it insulting to women, to the Republican party, and to the country.

This is nothing against Palin. From what little we know about her, she seems to be a bright, attractive, impressive person. She certainly has been successful in her 44 years. But is she ready to be president?

And now we learn the 17-year-old daughter, Bristol, is pregnant. She and the father of the child plan to marry. This may be a hard one for the Republican conservative family-values crowd to swallow. Of course, this can happen in any family. But it must certainly raise the question among the evangelical base about whether Sarah Palin has been enough of a hands-on mother.

McCain claims he knew about the pregnancy, and was not at all concerned. Why not? Not only do we have a woman with five children, including an infant with special needs, but a woman whose 17-year-old child will need her even more in the coming months. Not to mention the grandchild. This would inevitably be an enormous distraction for a new vice president (or president) in a time of global turmoil. Not only in terms of her job, but from a media standpoint as well.

McCain's cynical choice has created a dilemma for many women. For still-angry Hillary Clinton voters, they will have to decide if they want to vote against their concscience and political interests by voting to elect a Republican woman who's even more conservative than McCain.

Evangelical women also will have to decide if they will vote against their conscience by voting to put the mother of young children in a job outside the home that will demand so much of her time and energy.

Southern Baptist leaders like Richard Land and Al Mohler have praised McCain's choice. But these are the same men who support this statement from the 2000 Baptist Faith & Message:

'A wife is to submit herself graciously to the servant leadership of her husband even as the church willingly submits to the headship of Christ. She, being in the image of God as is her husband and thus equal to him, has the God-given responsibility to respect her husband and to serve as his helper in managing the household and nurturing the next generation.'

Palin's lack of experience and her family situation are both valid and vital considerations here, especially when she will be running with a 72-year-old presidential candidate who has suffered four bouts of a deadly cancer." [more]

posted by ericb at 12:20 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Somebody mentioned Alegre's Corner somewhere around 2000 comments ago.

Their reaction to the announcement of Palin (posted on August 31) is probably the most unintentionally ironic thing I've ever read in my life. This is not satire:

The Process of Vetting

John McCain has picked an unknown to run with him, a 44-year old mother of five with Alaskan sensibilities of the drill more for Alaska bent, and the women don't own our bodies, god owns our own bodies bent, which probably tells us all we'll ever find out about her.

There isn't much time before the election, but, one thing we can be fairly sure of is that she doesn't need to be vetted. It's highly unlikely that Sarah Palin is anything other than exactly what she says she is.

She's unlikely to have criminal connections, or have some lover stowed in the back room, caring for her love child. I'd venture to guess she owes no one financial favors, and so she won't have to pledge that she won't make good on any.

I doubt any rich guys have compromised her by seducing her with their connections and wealth. She can't have been planning all along to run for national office, but even so she probably didn't have to think much about keeping her background squeaky clean, or secret. She probably well knows that there is no such thing as a secret anyway.

Why? She's a girl.

It's a guy thing to lust for power and think they can keep secrets and get away with anything. It's a guy thing to keep some other woman on a string while staying married. Guys are good at compartmentalizing, and letting their ambitions blind them to their human shortcomings. Guys often think they can do anything, and get away with it. Girls often think they can't get away with anything, and anyway it'd be too much trouble.

Girls lives are often open books, cause someone knows where they are 24/7. This is double if you're a mom. This is triple if you're a wife too. Men may go out and not let anyone know where they are, wives and moms have to leave numbers and instructions for the babysitter so as to find them in emergencies. Girls rarely go out alone anyway. Girls share with their friends their innermost thoughts and feelings. Girls also know their friends share their secrets with everyone else they know.

Sarah's only possible weak spot would be her husband, and only if he refuses to show his sources of income might that harm her. Gerry's downfall was her Italian businessman husband, she was herself squeaky clean. If Sarah's husband has a love child somewhere, it won't hurt Sarah.

Even when Hillary was running as vetted, the only smeary thing pundits had the nerve to speculate on was Bill, no one thought she had any secrets that could derail her campaign.

So, why aren't all public figures girls? We're sooo vetted, sooo transparent, sooo uncompromised, and some, like Hillary, are sooo much smarter, and work sooo much harder and are just all in all sooo much better? (hint: the sexists want to keep us quiet, barefoot and knocked up)

Sarah may be a smarty too, but we already know about her desire to make us all carry all our fetuses to term and then be solely responsible for them. It's not a secret, she's a know-it-all born-again jerk.

posted by designbot at 12:22 PM on September 2, 2008

Holy shit, people, +2k comments in 3 days. This is going over the top!
posted by mwhybark at 12:23 PM on September 2, 2008

I'm starting to become afraid that Palin will withdraw, and McCain will fix his (now obvious) mistake with a bona fide VP candidate -- or at least someone who remotely resembles a bona fide candidate. Palin staying in the race may be the best thing for Obama right now.

He's damned if he does, damned if he doesn't at this point. Sure, it would be better for Obama if the secessionist, power abusing, library-and-polar-bear hating scandal machine would stay on the ticket, but even if she doesn't? The damage has already been done.

McCain's judgement has been decimated by this choice, all the while he's ruined his arguments against an Obama presidency (experience, patriotism). I'm not saying he can't do damage control, but it would be interesting to see him try.

My mother and stepfather live in Texas. They voted for Bush (twice). My mother has been undecided during the election, while stepfather has staunchly supported McCain.

I called home today. My mother has decided to support Obama, and my stepfather is leaning in that direction. He's a Vietnam war vet, and he supported McCain because he respected his service, and believed that he shared his values. But he's feeling the pinch of the economy, too, and he's got a son in Iraq. He just can't trust someone with such piss poor judgement.

If this is happening in small town Texas, it's got to be happening elsewhere, despite what the smiling Republican talking heads might have us believe. Maybe McCain can fix this with another VP pick, but I think the damage is already done.
posted by jnaps at 12:23 PM on September 2, 2008

I am just in awe that this thread is nearing VioletBluian lengths.
posted by shiu mai baby at 12:25 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin lied about visiting Ireland...

Oh sweet Jesus.

I'm finally catching on that this has all been some kind of strange joke.
posted by rokusan at 12:26 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Update: Palin lied about visiting Ireland as part of her foreign policy experience

It just keeps on giving! So okay - we're all distracted with these numerous ridiculosities of Sarah Palin. So while we're all turned in her direction, pointing and laughing at her job resume, repeated lying and book banning, they must be somewhere slipping something by. This is bordering on outright stupidity.
posted by cashman at 12:28 PM on September 2, 2008

Palin's Church May Have Shaped Controversial Worldview.
posted by ericb at 12:29 PM on September 2, 2008

As one who would not like to see Republican hegemony continued, I couldn't be more delighted that the FSM and McCain have teamed up to hand them a steaming pile of fresh public relations manure right now. Gustav is the starkest and most unavoidable reminder of the scandalous federal response to Katrina and one that not even James Carville could have cooked up. Then Sarah Palin gets picked and the bad news for Republicans just fills the airwaves, pages, and tubes of the media. [Sits back, munches popcorn]
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:31 PM on September 2, 2008

I doubt any rich guys have compromised her by seducing her with their connections and wealth. She can't have been planning all along to run for national office, but even so she probably didn't have to think much about keeping her background squeaky clean, or secret. She probably well knows that there is no such thing as a secret anyway.

Why? She's a girl.

Blah, blah, blah, gender stereotype, gender stereotype, gender stereotype. I'm so glad to know that we wimmin folk ain't worth the vettin' 'cause we keep everthin' all out in the open and such.

How does such a facile observation that is made of nothing but sweeping generalizations contribute to the conversation?
posted by shiu mai baby at 12:32 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

How does such a facile observation that is made of nothing but sweeping generalizations contribute to the conversation?

Don't you worry your pretty little head about that.
posted by Flunkie at 12:36 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

You know what I really think? Deep, deep down in my guts?

I think God has a really, really big sense of humor. And He is in the process of proving it.
posted by konolia at 12:38 PM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

Palin's Church May Have Shaped Controversial Worldview.

Oh wow. Is this gift that keeps giving going to innoculate Barack against Jeremiah Wright smears too? Because I know what gets said in the kind of church Palin attends, and if there is any videotape it's going to be juicy.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:39 PM on September 2, 2008

Documents detail Palin's time as governor.

2006 Democratic oppo research document about Palin [PDF].
posted by ericb at 12:41 PM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

Konolia, based on the fact that James Dobson made a public call for all Christians to pray for rain on the day of Obama's acceptance speech (which was rain-free), only to have the biggest hurricane of the season so far make landfall on the first day of the RNC?

I think you're right on the money.
posted by shiu mai baby at 12:41 PM on September 2, 2008 [23 favorites]

I think God has a really, really big sense of humor. And He is in the process of proving it.

Gods with senses of humor are generally pretty bad news for mortals. The last thing I need is a conception of the universe that puts Andy Kaufman's hands on the wheel.
posted by cortex at 12:41 PM on September 2, 2008 [7 favorites]

Earbucket's link to McCain's campaign advisor's comments is astounding:

"This election is not about issues," said Davis. "This election is about a composite view of what people take away from these candidates."

Davis generally dismissed the controversies surrounding McCain's vice presidential pick -- Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin -- as a media creation but did acknowledge that her acceptance speech, which seems likely to come tomorrow, is critically important to defining who she is to the American public.

As for the speech itself, Davis said a generic, "masculine" [WTF????] speech was being prepared before the pick was made and, now that Palin is the choice, she is adapting the speech to her own needs and personality.

Davis did admit, however, the challenges of running for president as a Republican in this political atmosphere.

"We are in the worst Republican environment since Nixon in 1972," said Davis. "We take that seriously. We get the joke."

Because you support the worst President since Nixon, who was the worst president since, um, forever. "we take that seriously - we get the joke". Talk about cognitive dissonance.
posted by Rumple at 12:44 PM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

> Oh, and whoever the heck that was upthread looking forward to the Daily Show tonight, I thank you for reminding me! I might be wrong here, but they haven't aired a new one since before the announcement, am I correct? Friday off, Monday a holiday....

They had a special friday show cover it, this is their reaction to Palin so far

I have no idea what tonight's material is going to be.
posted by mrzarquon at 12:46 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

I know what gets said in the kind of church Palin attends, and if there is any videotape it's going to be juicy.

Well ... there's this: "A review of recorded sermons [audio/video archive] by Ed Kalnins, the senior pastor of Wasilla Assembly of God since 1999, offers a provocative and, for some, eyebrow-raising sketch of Palin's longtime spiritual home.

...Pastor Kalnins has also preached that critics of President Bush will be banished to hell; questioned whether people who voted for Sen. John Kerry in 2004 would be accepted to heaven; charged that the 9/11 terrorist attacks and war in Iraq were part of a war 'contending for your faith;' and said that Jesus 'operated from that position of war mode.'

...Kalnins has preached that the 9/11 attacks and the invasion of Iraq were part of a 'world war' over the Christian faith, one in which Jesus Christ had called upon believers to be willing to sacrifice their lives.

...He also claims to have received direct 'words of knowledge' from God, providing him information about past events in other people's lives."

There's much, much more ... and I suspect the Obama oppo team is watching each and every video from the curch's server.
posted by ericb at 12:47 PM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

From ericb's link above

"Pastor Kalnins has also preached that critics of President Bush will be banished to hell; questioned whether people who voted for Sen. John Kerry in 2004 would be accepted to heaven; charged that the 9/11 terrorist attacks and war in Iraq were part of a war "contending for your faith;" and said that Jesus "operated from that position of war mode."

Also, there is a review of Kalnins' sermons posted here.

Rev Kalnins is about to become famous, and not in a good way. Among other things, this throws a nice light on something we all knew happened in 2000 and 2004 -- electioneering from the pulpit in thousands of evangelical churches, and at least a few Catholic ones. That's against the law, and in principle should cost a church its tax exemption. Let's see the FEC and the DoJ investigate this, for once?

Here are konolia's "real Americans" -- busily claiming their theocratic dominion, damning to hell those they disagree with, and plotting their minority government takeover (because they are a distinct minority of Americans, these evangelical freaks) from inside the sanctuary of their houses of worship.

One thing about this whole scandal is the delicious hoist-by-their-own-petards schadenfreude yumminess of it all. Every bit of rumor-spreading, fear-mongering, guilt-by-association slander that the right heaped on Obama in their fruitless attempt to paint him as a stranger to American values is now going to come home to roost.

Oh, jeez, I am loving this. A great day for America. Thank you Senator McCain, and thank you Governor Palin. This election is all over but the voting.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:47 PM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

Ha, ericb -- great minds think alike.

Yes, there's even more very juicy stuff there. LOL.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:49 PM on September 2, 2008

To top it off, the church's streaming server has collapsed. I give it minutes before they hide this stuff and take it offline. Anyone out there who can get a connection and has a stream recorder could probably make some money off this moment.

This means hundreds or even thousands of people are headed over to hear Sarah's crazy pastor.

Yahoo!
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:51 PM on September 2, 2008

McCain's campaign manager: "This election is not about issues."

"This election is not about issues," said Davis. "This election is about a composite view of what people take away from these candidates."

Here's what I'm taking away:
By choosing a person who is unqualified to be President of The United States as his VP, McCain has demonstrated terrible judgement and is exhibiting poor leadership.

If he can't even vett his VP choice properly, how is he expected to run a nation?
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 12:53 PM on September 2, 2008

Server collapse... sure. And it won't come back online for about 70 days.

I hope somebody out there was busy copying all those files, because otherwise they're gone.
posted by clever sheep at 12:53 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

I think God has a really, really big sense of humor. And He is in the process of proving it.
I'm having a really really hard time understanding what this means.
posted by dirtdirt at 12:53 PM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

Oh, and whoever the heck that was upthread looking forward to the Daily Show tonight, I thank you for reminding me! I might be wrong here, but they haven't aired a new one since before the announcement, am I correct? Friday off, Monday a holiday....
posted by mwhybark at 3:29 PM on September 2 [+] [!]

They did a Tuesday to Friday schedule last week, so that they could have a day to write about the day before. They've already responded to the choice of Palin by having her fellow "Vagina-American" Samantha Bee comment. - on preview - see linked sketch above

I don't know what the schedule is this week, but they may be doing another Tuesday to Friday.
posted by jb at 12:56 PM on September 2, 2008

Wasila Assembly of God Church has taken its server offline. Hold on to your hats!

By the way, the link I posted above was to the WAG site, not a review of the sermons. That was ericb's post.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:56 PM on September 2, 2008

I am reminded of a couple months back, when Senator McCain was asked how he was going to choose his Vice Presidential running mate.

"Well, basically, it's a google," he said.

I guess he wasn't kidding. Though it looks like he probably didn't get past the first couple of hits.
posted by Flunkie at 1:02 PM on September 2, 2008

...pastor...

Heh. Like that stuff counts if you're white.
posted by Artw at 1:06 PM on September 2, 2008

Clinton backers move toward Obama.

A new Gallup poll out today says that the percentage of Clinton loyalists planning to vote for Obama in November jumped from 70 percent before last week's convention to 81 percent after, and the percentage saying they are certain to back Obama increased from 47 percent to 65 percent.
posted by cashman at 1:10 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

A secessionist? Holy Shit, but the 21st century is just all kinds of weird. I bet McCain could still win and if he does I'm moving to the asteriod belt, that's a promise!
posted by Divine_Wino at 1:12 PM on September 2, 2008

I'm as delighted watching this apparent implosion of her candidacy as any socialist latte drinker, but I agree that the seemingly never-ending stream of dirt on Bristol Palin is unhelpful. For a start, the "teenage drinking" photos that have been doing the rounds don't appear to be her, but are in fact of her boyfriend's/fiancé's sister, Sadie/Mercedes.

The Alegre's corner thing about vetting is unbelievably funny... I think I actually feel sorry for Sarah Palin now. Oh my...

And now Todd Palin's been confirmed as registered for AIP until 2002! HAHA! This is going to be good (assuming the MSM pick it up...).

seriously, there's not even the slightest need to go in for dirty tricks and smears on her kids... they're digging their own graves here.
posted by knapah at 1:16 PM on September 2, 2008

Stop this shit.

Seconded. Leave the kids alone.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:16 PM on September 2, 2008

Todd Palin confirmed to have been registered member of Alaskan secessionist party through 2002

The Republican Candidate for Vice President's husband wanted to secede from the Union. Talk about hating America!
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 1:18 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

We can wreck two trains right into each other by positing that her epic water-broke journey was to ensure that their are no questions about her son's Alaskan citizenship after the secession.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 1:23 PM on September 2, 2008 [10 favorites]

Even Rupert Murdoch is throwing in the towel, it seems.

Rupert Murdoch helped broker a "tentative truce" between Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama and key News Corporation lieutenant Roger Ailes, the boss of Fox News Channel, earlier this year, according to the media mogul's biographer.

Murdoch, the News Corp chairman and chief executive, was forced to court Obama after the rising star of US politics rebuffed his initial approaches, it is believed because of what he saw as the derogatory coverage of him and his wife, Michelle, on Fox News, according to Michael Wolff.

...

"Fox has been his [Murdoch's] alter ego. For a long time he was in love with the Fox chief, Roger Ailes, because he was even more Murdoch than Murdoch. And yet now the embarrassment can't be missed - he mumbles even more than usual when called on to justify it; he barely pretends to hide the way he feels about [Fox presenter] Bill O'Reilly.

"And while it is not possible that he would give Fox up - because the money is the money; success trumps all - in the larger sense of who he is, he seems to want to hedge his bets."
posted by Rumple at 1:26 PM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

The Republican Candidate for Vice President's husband wanted to secede from the Union.

I can't wait to see the New Yorker cover next week.
posted by scody at 1:28 PM on September 2, 2008 [8 favorites]

We can wreck two trains right into each other by positing that her epic water-broke journey was to ensure that their are no questions about her son's Alaskan citizenship after the secession.

I WANT TO BELIEVE
posted by cortex at 1:30 PM on September 2, 2008

No, what I AM saying is that she and her husband WERE the average American... One thing this woman will never do is talk down to America.

She IS America.
--posted by konolia

Is that why Todd Palin wanted to secede?
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 1:32 PM on September 2, 2008 [12 favorites]

The RNC Tuesday schedule is back online - tonight features both Lieberman and Thompson.
posted by 8dot3 at 1:35 PM on September 2, 2008

after the secession.

Well, at least she would have had foreign policy experience then, in dealing with America. At least for the day or two while troops were on the way there to beat her down like she stole somethin.
posted by cashman at 1:35 PM on September 2, 2008

Wasila Assembly of God Church has taken its server offline.

displaying your woeful lack of understanding of how the internet works adds nothing to the discussion.
posted by quonsar at 1:36 PM on September 2, 2008

Just heard Wolf Blitzer say that McCain pulled his upcoming interview with Larry King live in protest of the over the top treatment of Tucker Bounds in the Campbell Brown interview. Astounding.
posted by madamjujujive at 1:40 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

McCain defends Palin selection process...

McCain, in Cleveland, said he was excited about Alaska Gov. Palin and predicted a warm welcome for her from Republican delegates when she addressed the convention on Wednesday.

"America's excited and they're going to be even more excited once they see her tomorrow night," he told reporters. "I'm very, very proud of the impression that she's made on all of America and I'm looking forward to serving with her."

...

"My vetting process was completely thorough and I'm grateful for the results," McCain told reporters in Philadelphia after a visit with firefighters.

....

McCain adviser Carly Fiorina said she was appalled and accused him of sexism, a charge the Obama camp had faced during Democrat Hillary Clinton's primary battle against him.

"The facts are that Sarah Palin has made more executive decisions as a mayor and governor than Barack Obama has made in his life," Fiorina said.

"Because of Hillary Clinton's historic run for the presidency and the treatment she received, American women are more highly tuned than ever to recognize and decry sexism in all its forms. They will not tolerate sexist treatment of Gov. Palin," Fiorina said.
posted by birdherder at 1:44 PM on September 2, 2008

If you are a seccessionist, it's not that you HATE America, it's that you don't want to be BE an American, you want to be something else.

The VP's family did not want to be part of America. Forget about feeling pride, etc., they didn't want to be part of the country at all.
posted by cell divide at 1:44 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Wow. I just got some terrible news. Terrible.

Okay. I have to back track. See I was elected president of my Seattle Condo board in May of 08. God what a hassle. But so far I've overseen a law suit, the tiling of our basement, the repair of back lot sewer drains and a window well. Also involved negotiating with one our owners, who is a Chinese National and only lives here part time, was quite difficult and time consuming but resulted in the recovery of $8000 dollars in back assessments.

Well, anyways. The terrible news. I just got a call from Minnesota. Looks like I'm slated to be next in line for Republican Vice President (right behind that guy who runs the Piroshki place down the street). I was told this was due to my "common man" street cred, penchant for angry tirades, executive and foreign policy experience, and Seattle's proximity to both Russia and China.

Damn.
posted by tkchrist at 1:46 PM on September 2, 2008 [11 favorites]

I originally thought birdhearder's quotes meant that she was accusing McCain of sexism! Not that I had a super-high opinion of her before, but that just seems needlessly stupid.
posted by cell divide at 1:48 PM on September 2, 2008

CNN's Campbell Brown just obliterates McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds who simply refuses to answer, is unable to answer, the simple question as to what foreign policy experience Palin has.

On CNN Wolf Blitzer just anounced that John McCain has cancelled tonight's originally scheduled interview with Larry King because he and his camp are upset over Campbell Brown's interview yesterday with Tucker Bounds.
posted by ericb at 1:49 PM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

Mmm... he's not really following current events is he? Hillary's supporters pretty much told him and Palin to go fuck themselves.
posted by Artw at 1:50 PM on September 2, 2008

Or what madamjujujive said!
posted by ericb at 1:50 PM on September 2, 2008

I'm a little in shock at the Murdoch thing... maybe he's getting ready to drop dead or something?
posted by Artw at 1:50 PM on September 2, 2008

"My vetting process was completely thorough and I'm grateful for the results," McCain told reporters in Philadelphia after a visit with firefighters."

I literally just read that as:

"...McCain told Philadephia after a fistfight with reporters."

I have to stop reading this shit, I'm starting to go as batty as the GOP!
posted by tristeza at 1:51 PM on September 2, 2008

And journalists acting vaguely tough in interviews... WTF is happening to the world?
posted by Artw at 1:52 PM on September 2, 2008

I'm really looking forward to Palin breaking cover and giving an interview. They can't hide her forever. or can they?

tkchrist --- sorry, but your daughter's pregnant with Reverend Wright's baby.
posted by Rumple at 1:54 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Just heard Wolf Blitzer say that McCain pulled his upcoming interview with Larry King live in protest of the embarrassment of Tucker Bounds in the Campbell Brown interview. Astounding.

First off, Tucker was the one who was over the top in how much evasion there was in that interview. So there was no over the top treatment of him. Secondly:

McCain pouts over spokesperson getting served
Tue Sep 2, 2008 4:51pm EDT

Email | Print |Share | Reprints | Single Page | Recommend (75)

By Priscilla Lundcaster

ST. PAUL, Minnesota (Reuters) - Republican John McCain rallied behind his vice presidential pick Sarah Palin on Tuesday, announcing he would take his ball and go home.

His comments came as pitcher Larry King prepared to face him later that evening. The Softball Association of America had no comment.

McCain, in Cleveland, said he was protesting how his spokesperson was eviscerated when he appeared on CNN in a video that was rapidly distributed across the internet. The Arizona senator's 96-year-old mother was interviewed from her porch ahead of McCain's arrival. "I'll cheer him up with a cherry pie and tell him he has to go back out there and face Larry," she said.

It was unclear at press time whose bat it was, or if anybody knew a kid down the street who had another ball.

UPDATED: This version corrects an earlier version of the story that incorrectly substituted "a kick in the pants" for cherry pie.

posted by cashman at 2:00 PM on September 2, 2008 [6 favorites]

TIA doesn't, but coral cache seems to have the church's page. I don't have rstp set up on this box, can someone check it?
posted by a robot made out of meat at 2:01 PM on September 2, 2008

tkchrist --- sorry, but your daughter's pregnant with Reverend Wright's baby.

So that's where that weird glow and scary Latin choral music has been coming from. That might explain the dobermans with the glowing red eyes, too.
posted by tkchrist at 2:02 PM on September 2, 2008

It’s all for you, tkchrist Jr.!

/jumps from top of monster thread.
posted by Artw at 2:06 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

/lands at current bottom of thread.

Ow.
posted by Artw at 2:07 PM on September 2, 2008

(I think I saw Xeni Jardin up there!)
posted by Artw at 2:08 PM on September 2, 2008

if you disable MeFi navigator, this page renders much quicker
posted by Rumple at 2:09 PM on September 2, 2008

sveskemus writes "What's with all these people out there who apparently think that Obama's a socialist? Do they think he's lying about his proposed policies or do they think what he's saying and doing is what a socialist says and does? I truly don't get it."

They don't know what socialist means. The same type of person who thinks Canadians are communists.

ericb writes "Update: Palin lied about visiting Ireland as part of her foreign policy experience'She didn't visit Ireland, which is what the McCain-Palin campaign claimed to Politico's Ben Smith on Saturday. She had a short refueling stopover, which means at best her extensive Irish diplomacy amounted to buying a sweater and a beer mug in the Shannon airport.'"

Would it be too cliche to say you can't make this stuff up 'cause no one would believe it?

mrzarquon writes "They had a special friday show cover it, this is their reaction to Palin so far"

Which isn't available in Canada even from CTV damn it. *warms up BT*
posted by Mitheral at 2:12 PM on September 2, 2008

On CNN Wolf Blitzer just anounced that John McCain has cancelled tonight's originally scheduled interview with Larry King because he and his camp are upset over Campbell Brown's interview yesterday with Tucker Bounds.

WHINER.

Awwww, whassamatta John? Pretty, smiling GIRL ANCHOR Campbell Brown made one of your buddies cry on the playground without a whole lot of effort? God, what an ass.

Oh yeah, I was horribly tortured by the Vietnamese but Campbell freaking Brown is scary? (Admittedly, Larry King is scary all on his own, in a different way, so pinning your fears of him on Brown is unfair, McCain)

And at the risk of getting the feminist contingent all het up over the verbs employed after this colon: Palin better grow a [figurative] pair before the VP debates, because if Biden smacks her down like Campbell Brown and she whines as bad as her ticket-mate McCain, it's going to make all top-level women look bad for a while.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 2:12 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Sarah Palin is Your New Segway
posted by Rumple at 2:15 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Here's a clip of Wolf Blitzer announcing the cancellation of McCain's interview.
posted by ericb at 2:15 PM on September 2, 2008

What? Larry King is like the king of softball pandering bullshit.
posted by Artw at 2:16 PM on September 2, 2008

Just heard Wolf Blitzer say that McCain pulled his upcoming interview with Larry King live in protest of the over the top treatment of Tucker Bounds in the Campbell Brown interview. Astounding.

Yeah. That's why he doesn't want to go on TV and answer questions like:

"What the hell were you thinking?"

"Are you senile?"

"Are you guys trying to lose?"

"Seriously, do you have Alzheimers?"

It's because he's offended by the way one of his flunkies was handled. That's the ticket.
posted by EarBucket at 2:17 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

So now that he's canceled that interview, CNN and friends will run the Campbell/Tucker cluster over and over again? Good move, John. GTKOG indeed!
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 2:19 PM on September 2, 2008

Photos of Bristol Palin partying with Captain Morgan and friends.

Before we get all upset about "liberals" posting this stuff, check out the bottom of second link:

I'm not sure how we survive this as a party. The one thing I do know is this doesn't help us beat Obama in the fall, and all joking aside, though Alaskan Trailer Trash living in the VPs house in Washington isn't a good thing, it's MUCH MUCH better than Obama being elected.

(Obviously Perez Hilton (the first link) isn't a republican, but still -- not everyone talking about this is doing so because they want to sink her chances, but because they're genuinely curious about what's going on. it's hardly surprising that people would be curious, given how popular tabloid style journalism is in this country)

Also: whoa. No wonder Alaskans "like" her, I'd like someone handing out big fat checks for nothing. Paging Dire Straits! We've got a theme song job for you over here...- bitter-girl.com

Hah, no kidding. Palin plays the "hardcore republican" but in terms of policy she's actually a socialist Taxing big oil to give money to the people. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but it's a bit hypocritical for right-wingers to love Palin while calling Obama a socialist.

It will be interesting to see how the media plays up Palin's church stuff, If there's one thing the MSM doesn't like it's the appearance of favoritism. But there's just so much here that you can't cover it all, and by the time you finish off the big stuff, the smaller stuff is just old news.
posted by delmoi at 2:21 PM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

LARRY KING: We're here with Republican presidential candidate John McCain for the whole hour... So John, there's been a lot of controversy about this lately, tell me where in Scottsdale can I get a good steak?

JOHN MCCAIN: Larry, I'm glad you asked that. There's a lot of controversy and talking on the intenets about this. My favorite isn't in Scottsdale, but in Phoenix at the Durant's. When I was locked in that box for five and a half years, I kept going by thinking about America and a good steak. Like the kind they cook up at Durant's.
posted by birdherder at 2:27 PM on September 2, 2008 [7 favorites]

Holy hopscotching shit, this thread is so great, each new revelation so utterly delicious in its effortless self-satire, that I'm almost sorry I have to go get ready for the Paul Weller concert tonight.

Almost.

(*wishes she had a MODS FOR OBAMA button to wear*)
posted by scody at 2:28 PM on September 2, 2008

So that's where that weird glow and scary Latin choral music has been coming from. That might explain the dobermans with the glowing red eyes, too.

I hate to go public with this, but I'm nearly positive that the kid is NOT tkchrist's grandchild. the sad truth of the matter is that tkchrist has been concealing his pregnancy from the public for months or even years, solely via the careful discipline of his legendary six-pack.
posted by mwhybark at 2:29 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Okay, I am horrible at reading people. But do the spokespeople for the McCain campaign and the Republican Party seem to be truly sincere and believable? I am watching the news and gosh, golly they are really working hard for the candidate.

I am trying to get my head out of the media echo chamber and trying to get substance to digest. I have read through this thread and the conservative voices including Konolia (who I truly respect for her convictions and willingness to speak) have not been heard in the last few hundred postings and it is now pretty anti-McCain. Can we get some more Mefi conservative voices? I really want to understand the Palin pick and remove the chaff from the substance.
posted by jadepearl at 2:30 PM on September 2, 2008

Beneath the chaff.... THERE IS NOTHING!
posted by Artw at 2:36 PM on September 2, 2008

CBS News is reporting Palin has cancelled her appearance at the Republican convention tonight.

Let me be the first to admit I may have been wrong about McCain not changing horses in mid-stream.
posted by orthogonality at 2:40 PM on September 2, 2008

I did watch the Campbell Brown-Tucker Bounds argument live last night, and the shocking thing wasn't Bounds' inability to answer the question, it was that Campbell Brown was actually doing her job.

It was like Jeremy Paxman discovered the tunnel that led into her head, only was disappointed to find it wasn't John Malkovich.
posted by dw at 2:41 PM on September 2, 2008 [6 favorites]

CNN reported that, prior to McCain's decision, Palin was vetted in the customary manner, and, as a result, that the pregnancy and trooper-gate (the latter hardly a secret in the first place) came to light. They also reported that Palin just came right out and told McCain about the pregnancy, independent of any inquiries. Again, prior to the decision. So this was not a botched vetting process. McCain knew about all the skeletons and chose her anyway.

You're not going to catch me voting for the big M or Ms. Palin because keeping 160,000 troops in Iraq is worse than keeping 30,000. And I do not ascribe to any of the candidates altruistic or noble intentions. But I do agree that personal shit shouldn't factor into deciding who's going to sit in the White House and am tempted to admire a guy who, under these circumstances, says "fuck it. I'm doing it."

Which is not to say that I'll shed a tear if the Palin thing slam dunks Senator John. And I still can't wait to hear the behind-the-scenes account of how and why this decision was made. Should make for some interesting reading.
posted by Clay201 at 2:46 PM on September 2, 2008

They also reported that Palin just came right out and told McCain about the pregnancy, independent of any inquiries.

Did they ask her if she had ever been a member of a political party that advocated secession?
posted by drezdn at 2:49 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

CNN reported that, prior to McCain's decision, Palin was vetted in the customary manner, and, as a result, that the pregnancy and trooper-gate (the latter hardly a secret in the first place) came to light. They also reported that Palin just came right out and told McCain about the pregnancy, independent of any inquiries. Again, prior to the decision. So this was not a botched vetting process. McCain knew about all the skeletons and chose her anyway.

I don't buy it. There are two many inconsistencies in their story of when McCain knew what, too many people in Alaska who would have been interviewed by a vetting team who claim no one ever talked to them, and too many badly-prepared surrogates who have no idea how to deal with the shitstorm flying at them. Of course they're going to claim they vetted her. It's because not having vetted her makes them look like grade-A world-class morons, and they know it.

I'm sure they did some very basic vetting. But it certainly doesn't appear that they did anything resembling due diligence on her.
posted by EarBucket at 2:51 PM on September 2, 2008

I hate to go public with this, but I'm nearly positive that the kid is NOT tkchrist's grandchild. the sad truth of the matter is that tkchrist has been concealing his pregnancy from the public for months or even years, solely via the careful discipline of his legendary six-pack.

WHYBARK! I knew when we were playing blind-folded baby diapering at my shower and you insisted on us using YOU rather than baby doll you were a man not apt to keep secrets... that and your insistence that we choose "Atilla" as our baby name.
posted by tkchrist at 2:52 PM on September 2, 2008

I mean, this is so counter-productive. All we’re doing is showing the American people — who are to a one a nation of “fuckin’ redneck” hockey playing snowmobile racers given to leaping headlong into unprotected sex at the earliest age possible so that they might spend their government checks shooting wolves from airplanes and building wonderful bridges hither and yon with their enormous families in tow — that we’re out of touch with their concerns.

(that's kind of an edgy site, those of you complaining about civility won't like the rest of what's written there, but I found that paragraph pretty funny)
posted by delmoi at 2:53 PM on September 2, 2008

Boyfriend heads to convention

"Bristol Palin's boyfriend plans to join the family of the Republican vice presidential candidate at the convention in Minnesota.

Levi Johnston's mother said her 18-year-old son left Alaska on Tuesday morning to join the Palin family in St. Paul.

Sherry Johnston also said there has been no pressure put on her son to marry Bristol Palin, the pregnant daughter of Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin."

posted by ericb at 2:54 PM on September 2, 2008

Did they ask her if she had ever been a member of a political party that advocated secession?

Paf. Canada has 48 MPs sitting in Parliment that form a part where secession is one of their primary platforms. A little secession talk never hurt anybody outside of Russian client-states.
posted by GuyZero at 2:55 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

jadepearl: Can we get some more Mefi conservative voices? I really want to understand the Palin pick and remove the chaff from the substance.

I'm not a conservative, but a roundup of the more conservative articles linked at realclearpolitics.com might be helpful.

The Case Against the Case Against Palin ("Watching Palin operate over the past few years has been like witnessing a dramatic reading of All the King’s Men.[...] Sooner or later, the Obama camp will realize that the beauty pageant queen is an enormously talented populist in a year that is ripe for populism. For their own sake, it had better be sooner.")

Team McCain Hits Back on Palin, Vetting ("The [NYT] story, my campaign source told me, is 'materially false.' Gov. Palin, the strategist said, was subjected to a 'complete vet.' [...] 'The only thing the campaign did not look at was the microfilm of the local newspaper, because it was impossible to look at the microfilm without revealing the search process,' the strategist said. 'We made a calculation that we would be able to get all the information from the Anchorage newspaper, that it was unlikely that there would be items in the local papers that were problematic that didn’t make it to the Anchorage paper.' ")

McCain Campaign: Palin a Republican Since 1982 ("Sarah Palin never belonged to the AIP. That’s the bottom line.")

Finally, there's Sarah Palin: Deeply Threatening to the Left? ("Ridiculing McCain’s VP pick for her commitment to family, poking fun at her hobbies and pushing smear about her kids will only bite back. [...] It makes the lefties look desperate, unstable, paranoid and downright mean. And it will hurt the Democratic brand if it continues.")
posted by Prospero at 2:56 PM on September 2, 2008

Palin a no-show at anti-abortion event.

In the "She's not speaking tonight" video link up there they said she was attending this, but now she didn't. Huh.
posted by dirtdirt at 2:56 PM on September 2, 2008

Well, it was then I first began to have concerns about your suitability as a running mate for Mr. McCain, Todd. The superabundance of rubberwear, the dog collars... I just put it down to dog training and moved on, but events are forcing my hand.

My best to Mrs. tkchrist, as ever.
posted by mwhybark at 3:11 PM on September 2, 2008

My best to Mrs. tkchrist, as ever.
And to you, sir.
posted by tkchrist at 3:16 PM on September 2, 2008

Off of Prospero's "Palin a Republican" link is a PDF that appears to include copies of many of her voter registration forms.
posted by XMLicious at 3:19 PM on September 2, 2008

Have any of the rest of you heard this? My husband came home and told me Obama's not gonna be spending any more campaign money in NC.

That doesn't make any sense to me-any of you Obama people know what's going on?

(And in an ongoing report here on the ground, McCain signs are going like crazy -people call my house looking for them-and people still are excited-incredibly excited-about Palin. )
posted by konolia at 3:19 PM on September 2, 2008

Her cancellation of the anti-abortion appearance was so she could work on her speech for the convention, according to McCain sources quoted in that story, so I wouldn't assume she's about to be pushed out. Unless she is.
posted by maudlin at 3:21 PM on September 2, 2008

The sad thing I see here is this: in this election, we have lauded the virtues of the "ordinary American" - all of the major candidates have some incarnation of normalcy - of tragedy, even - in their message (childhood poverty, death, war, hard work with little/no payoff) - and then, in one fell swoop, we expose the rot of their myths, by exposing an honest-to-God (and especially fortunate) member of that "ordinary class" to a huge amount of media scrutiny and blowing the myth of the inherent goodness of "hockey moms" and "single parents" and "hard-working families" and "takes Amtrak home every night" and all the rest of it out of the water. This hurts all the candidates.

Consider the "hopeless" presidential candidates we've seen over the last few years - consider Dennis Kuchinich. Why does he run, to be mocked by half the country? Because he believes, truly, that he has a chance. Not to win the whole thing. But to make a difference, to shape the debate. Seeing Kucinich in a televised debate was amazing, because everyone knew that after the first few primaries, he was dead meat. But the man isn't interested in being a megalomaniac, or owning six Ferraris some lobbyist pays for, or being respected by the media or anyone else in the halls of the powerful. He does his work in the House - a big body it's probably very easy to lose your way in - for the people of Cleveland, and for the rest of us, because he...wants...to. Because he likes helping ordinary folks. That's the American dream: to aspire to serve, and to do so so honorably that you're re-elected time and time again by the people who want you there. And this is a guy who started out on his city council at the age of 23, one of seven kids in a family that moved 21 times when he was growing up. I don't know the guy personally; he may very well have some skeletons in his closet.

The very essence of what we are raised to believe as citizens - that we are a meritocracy, that anyone can make it - has been severely tested this election cycle, in spite of the fact that we have some great candidates all the way down the ticket from both major parties. And those down-ticket votes really matter - so much in our society is determined in our communities, counties, and states. This election is being seen as a generational shift - huge turnout, never so much involvement, a universe of new media driving debate and speaking truth to power and its lying spokespeople.

And we've gone and made it a circus over this relatively normal person full of problems and flaws. The citizenry is confused; the media is acting like they've never seen any political figure with a speck of tarnish on them; the left is on the offense, foolishly; the right is hiding behind Flag and Freedom and F-16s.

We might as well just permanently nail the reins of power to the doors of the Capitol building, because I don't see either party handing any level of responsibility, trust, or management outside the Beltway for some time to come. Even if McCain wins, I don't see either party risking involving anyone other than perfectly-vetted insiders from now on, regardless of their merits or credentials. There will always be Barack Obamas and Bobby Jindals, Brian Schweitzers and Janet Napolitanos. But will they be at the head of the table anytime soon? I doubt it.
posted by mdonley at 3:22 PM on September 2, 2008 [5 favorites]

Have any of the rest of you heard this? My husband came home and told me Obama's not gonna be spending any more campaign money in NC.

Not true, as far as I know. I think they've cut the TV ads for the moment, but the campaign's real focus here is on the ground game. We've got a ton of paid organizers working in the state. Where'd your husband hear that?
posted by EarBucket at 3:24 PM on September 2, 2008

Scratch that--he's just made a TV ad buy in NC. Yeah, we're very much in play here.
posted by EarBucket at 3:27 PM on September 2, 2008

Seems like she hasn't shown her face since Saturday. Are they trying to figure out how to respond to all this, or wait until it all blows over? Or are they planning to dump her?

But man, compare the republican "convention" to the democratic one just last week, an enormous spectacle, compelling narrative (Will the party unify? Will Bill Clinton give an endorsement? Will Barack's speech go well?) and it's capped off with a speech in front of 80k people.

Now the republicans, you've got a parade of dumbass operatives spouting obvious lies (she was fully vetted! She's got lots of executive experience) so absolutely transparent that even hardened newsbots can't hide their disbelief. The entire convention coverage seems to be nothing more then gossip and scandal involving their new VP.

How is that going to look to the average voter at home? Can you picture John McCain getting a "bounce" out of this?
posted by delmoi at 3:30 PM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

Clearly going for the pity vote.

Start crying, old man.
posted by Artw at 3:36 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Now the republicans, you've got a parade of dumbass operatives spouting obvious lies...

I guess you go with what's worked for you before.
posted by mazola at 3:37 PM on September 2, 2008 [6 favorites]

And we've gone and made it a circus over this relatively normal person full of problems and flaws.

Is it relatively normal ...

-- for a Governor to abuse her power by firing a state employee because he refused to fire a trooper that she wanted punished due to a bitter custody battle?

-- for an elected official in a country founded on principles of free expression to inquire at the library --- as soon as she is elected mayor --- about the procedure for banning books?

This kind of stuff matters. This is fair game.

When a VP candidate has a comparatively sparse record on which we can judge her, yes, we're going to zero in on that gross abuse of power that is currently the subject of a legislative investigation that even members of her own party supported. Yes, we will make a "circus" of it, because the future of the country is at stake.

It's as though some people want to squelch debate about Palin because it's going to mess up the Oxygen Network feel-good movie script that they think this story should be.
posted by jayder at 3:37 PM on September 2, 2008 [6 favorites]

This kind of stuff matters. This is fair game.

It's fair game, but it's a losing proposition for most voters. They need to talk about the issues, about Iraq, the Economy, and Healthcare. All the rest of it just feeds into what the Republicans want.
posted by cell divide at 3:41 PM on September 2, 2008

It's not about the issues, according to McCain.
posted by Artw at 3:45 PM on September 2, 2008

My husband came home and told me Obama's not gonna be spending any more campaign money in NC.

Your husband is a victim of bad information.
Who told him this lie?
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 3:45 PM on September 2, 2008

The upcoming cover of Us Weekly: "John McCain's Vice President, Sarah Palin. Babies, Lies, and Scandal."

Most likely not your first choice for introducing your running-mate to the country!
posted by ericb at 3:46 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

I don't know so much about McCain, but I had the overall impression that he is not completely insane. Are we sure James Dobson didn't slip something into his drink? He just seems to be going on recklessly, and it's like he's destroying his credibility among people who don't necessarily agree with him or vote his way, but who have respected him. At this point I can't tell if he is just desperate to win, or desperate to lose.
posted by troybob at 3:47 PM on September 2, 2008

and people still are excited-incredibly excited-about Palin. )

Do they say *why* they're excited, or *what*, specifically, they're excited about?
posted by tristeza at 3:47 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

The very essence of what we are raised to believe as citizens - that we are a meritocracy, that anyone can make it - has been severely tested this election cycle

Um...all the presidents and vice presidents of America. It's been severely tested for decades, really centuries. I'm not sure why all of a sudden Sarah Palin's legitimately questioned job resume is some kind of cause for me to get all weepy about meritocracy in America. Generations, entire families have lived and died without the prospect of, much less the nomination of, much less the election of anybody who looked like them.
posted by cashman at 3:48 PM on September 2, 2008

Yeah -- right. "Country First."

Rove: Palin "Not A Governing Decision But A Campaign Decision" [w/ video].
posted by ericb at 3:48 PM on September 2, 2008

See, this could all have been avoided if he'd gone with Hawaii Governor Linda Lingle instead.

She is a very popular Republican leader in a state dominated by Democrats; she is not currently involved in any major scandals; she's been in office for a term and a half now; she puts Hawaii back into play (hey, Delaware and Alaska were already going to vote for the parties they almost always vote for); she's already traveled abroad a couple of times on diplomatic type trips.

Basically, the only strike against her is that she's pro-choice - after a fashion.

You picked the wrong small state, Senator McCain!
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:51 PM on September 2, 2008

Your husband is a victim of bad information.
Who told him this lie?

My guess is one of the people calling the house looking for McCain signs (they're going like crazy!) or that is excited -- INCREDIBLY EXCITED!!! -- about Palin!
posted by Shepherd at 3:52 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

A candidate has to reach a certain threshold of credibility before it becomes sensible to talk about the issues, don't they? It seems that we are still at the incredulous stage, where most rational observers do not believe Palin is a credible candidate for the vice presidency. Serious questions have been raised about her fitness for this job (she lacks basic experience we expect in vice presidential candidates; she has not articulated any positions at all about the issues you mention; and there is a controversy concerning her ethics that even has members of her own party calling for her head). Until those questions about basic fitness are answered, it doesn't make sense to push the discussion toward the substantive issues.

For example, as an attorney, if someone were to raise serious questions about whether my adversary counsel is licensed to practice law, raising and settling those questions would necessarily precede any action on the substantive legal issues in a case. If I raised the questions about my adversary's licensure status, it would be wrong to say, "No, that's just a distraction, let's move on to the substantive issues of this case." The attorney's status as a licensed attorney has to be established first; similarly, her credibility as next-in-line to the presidency has to be established first.

You (cell divide) are saying we need to be talking about issues, but there are two problems with that: (1) she hasn't made herself available to talk about issues; no media interviews have been granted and she's cancelled her convention appearance, and (2) until she establishes herself as a credible candidate for vice presidency, many people will feel like we have skipped a step. Her credibility as a candidate has to be established first.

If we were to leap ahead, and treat her as if she were credible --- rather than a completely preposterous pick, worth of scorn and ridicule --- we are playing into the Republicans' hands. Then, she can just spout memorized talking points and we're allowing them to shape the terms of the debate. We Democrats need to treat her with the derision she deserves.
posted by jayder at 3:54 PM on September 2, 2008 [7 favorites]

sorry, my last comment was directed to this comment by cell divide.
posted by jayder at 3:56 PM on September 2, 2008

Yeah -- right. "Country First."

To be fair, they never specified "America". They might be talking about Alaska.
posted by Flunkie at 3:56 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

My husband came home and told me Obama's not gonna be spending any more campaign money in NC.

Why, because Palin means he's beaten in the south?

He's going to win NC, with a far superior ground organization. He's within 5 points in every poll I've seen, which is incredible.

And the more of your fundy neighbors who get excited about Palin, the better -- the bigger the blowback when McCain is forced to kick her under the bus, which will be by next week.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:57 PM on September 2, 2008

You picked the wrong small state, Senator McCain!

there was always that 49th vs. 50th rivalry going (i dunno ;)

but i wonder if lingle is part of their secessionist movement?
posted by kliuless at 4:00 PM on September 2, 2008

I wish you people had vetted Clinton this well back in the day....

As to my husband's info-I think someone in the State party told him that. But sometimes he gets good info-after all, we knew about Palin before I had my first cup of coffee Friday morning.

I suggest we all sit back, relax, and wait till the end of the week before we get our knickers in a knot either way regarding Palin.
posted by konolia at 4:01 PM on September 2, 2008

Can we get some more Mefi conservative voices?

Stunned silence from all 7 of them.

Konolia is the only one with the balls to stand in the shitstorm and spit back at it.

If I were a thinking Republican, no way I'd be admitting it right now, right here.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:02 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

If we were to leap ahead, and treat her as if she were credible --- rather than a completely preposterous pick, worth of scorn and ridicule --- we are playing into the Republicans' hands.

I understand that and you make a strong point, but if she is established as a credible pick, isn't there the opposite effect? If she emerges as strong, likable, and able to defend her positions forcefully and build support among the conservative base, won't focusing on her foibles make the election about personality and not the major issues?
posted by cell divide at 4:03 PM on September 2, 2008

Fourcheesemac, if McCain throws her under the bus at this point, the Republican party will probably totally implode. I'm serious. If he does that he will need to be screened for dementia.

I am not kidding.
posted by konolia at 4:04 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

I wish you people had vetted Clinton this well back in the day....

See, the candidate for president is not "vetted" except by the media and the voters. And you knew *everything* about Clinton's proclivities before election day, so this doesn't make much sense. We knew we were electing a womanizer, and we did.

Anyway, you can sit back and let the chips fall. I'm having too much fun helping knock them over. No time to relax. The GOP is teetering over the void. Keep PUSHING!
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:04 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Scrub, scrub, scrub.

Web site of Palin's church, the Wasilla Assembly of God: "503 Service Unavailable. The server has been placed offline by the operator. Please try again later."
posted by ericb at 4:05 PM on September 2, 2008

Oh, good lord. Chris Matthews just referred to McCain and Palin as "two Teddy Roosevelt types".
posted by Flunkie at 4:05 PM on September 2, 2008

Sarah Palin is Your New Segway

I added "Turkey Dropped from a Helicopter."

And in an ongoing report here on the ground, McCain signs are going like crazy -people call my house looking for them-and people still are excited-incredibly excited-about Palin.
In a shocking development here in San Francisco, all I see is Obama stickers--and people are incredibly excited about Palin, too!
posted by kirkaracha at 4:08 PM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

The Palin Church Video

“As questions have been raised over how thoroughly Sen. John McCain's presidential campaign vetted Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin for the V.P. slot, it seems the McCain campaign was unaware of a video -- available online -- in which Palin talks about God's role in U.S. military action overseas, according to a political operative familiar with the situation.

The video, first reported by the liberal blog HuffingtonPost.com, is from a June Palin speech to the graduating class of commission students at Palin's former church in Wasilla, Alaska. While describing her family, Palin told students about her oldest son, 19-year-old Track, who is set to be deployed to Iraq this month with the U.S. Army. She urged students to pray ‘that our leaders -- that our national leaders -- are sending [soldiers] out on a task that is from God.’

She added, ‘That's what we have to make sure that we are praying for: that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan.’

‘It's pretty uncomfortable stuff,’ said the political operative, after watching the video online. ‘It's bad. It's really bad. … It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out.’

In addition to talking about Iraq, Palin also referred to God's role in her work as governor.

‘I can do my part in working really, really hard to get a natural gas pipeline, about a $30 billion project that's going to create a lot of jobs for Alaska. … [but] I think God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built, so pray for that,’ she said. ‘I can do my job there in developing our natural resources, in doing things like getting the roads paved and making sure our troopers have their cop cars and their uniforms and their guns, and making sure our public schools are funded. But really that stuff doesn't do any good if the people of Alaska's hearts aren't right with God.’

It wasn't all serious, though. At one point during the address, Palin praised the graduating class as ‘a bunch of cool-looking Christians.’ Then she picked out one student in the crowd and said with a smile, ‘Ben, I don't know you well enough yet, but looking at you, I'm thinking, people are going to interested in Jesus Christ through you because of the way you look - this red-headed Sasquatch for Jesus. You look good!’ The students cheered. ‘Times are really changin'. And with the times that change, looks even change.’

The seven-minute speech is posted on the Web site of Palin's former church, the Wasilla Assembly of God. But, the political operative said, the McCain campaign seems to have had no knowledge of it when Palin was announced as McCain's running mate on Friday.”

posted by ericb at 4:08 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

konolia, precisely.

Damned if he does, doomed if he doesn't. I am looking forward to the "implosion" either way.

So I hope you're not kidding. McCain is taking on water faster than he can bail today. The way I see it, they *have* to ditch her and take the consequences, which will be a few hundred thousand "Christian" conservatives throwing a hissy fit. Otherwise, it's a guaranteed loser with a few million independents.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:10 PM on September 2, 2008

Republican leaning people are pleased as punch with Palin, if for no other reason than it's driven people like daily kos into a frenzy. Like someone said elsewhere, Palin is like a huge internet troll that people can't stop talking about.
posted by garlic at 4:13 PM on September 2, 2008

red-headed Sasquatch for Jesus

100 kinds of awesome. Can I get that saying on a T-shirt?
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:13 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

But the man isn't interested in being a megalomaniac, or owning six Ferraris some lobbyist pays for, or being respected by the media or anyone else in the halls of the powerful. He does his work in the House - a big body it's probably very easy to lose your way in - for the people of Cleveland, and for the rest of us, because he...wants...to.

See, that's the thing about Kucinich (he's my congressman and I love him). He lives not too far from us in a modest, lower-middle-class neighborhood. He stands up for what he believes in, he gets excited about public service, he's a great, great guy. No scandals, unless you count landing a majorly good looking younger woman about 8' taller than him. He's not trying to ban books, or fire ex-brother-in-laws, or take a plane home during a high risk pregnancy to give birth in Alaska so his son's citizenship in a future independent Alaskan republic where all citizens get handout checks from Big Oil is assured. He's just...well...awesome.

(And speaking of which, how come only Alaskans get oil dividend checks? as members of the US, exploiting US resources, shouldn't we ALL get a share? Or is Alaska, like, specialer than the rest of us? Norway has the right idea).
posted by bitter-girl.com at 4:14 PM on September 2, 2008 [8 favorites]

The Wasilla Assembly of God took their website offline -- one day too late. Talk about amateur hour -- the McCain campaign apparently had no knowledge of any of this. I can't imagine the backstage drama as it reels and rocks today trying to keep this stuff tamped down.

She's a wacko evangelical. We've had enough of a president who thinks he talks to God and God talks through him. Enough! This is the last gasp of the cave dwellers before we go all 21st century on their asses.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:15 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Juneau: A Comedy About Running for President...and the Bumps Along the Way.
posted by ericb at 4:18 PM on September 2, 2008

Konolia is the only one with the balls to stand in the shitstorm and spit back at it.

Seriously. I have tremendous admiration for Konolia right now, just for hanging in there. We need more of her backbone around here.
posted by rokusan at 4:25 PM on September 2, 2008 [10 favorites]

konolia writes "Fourcheesemac, if McCain throws her under the bus at this point, the Republican party will probably totally implode. I'm serious. If he does that he will need to be screened for dementia. "

But for years, for decades, we've said presidential candidates should be able to pick their own veeps. You know McCain wanted Joe Lieberman, and only picked Palin after his arm was twisted. And now she's imploding.

Why can't your guy, McCain, pick a veep he's comfortable with and confident in?
posted by orthogonality at 4:36 PM on September 2, 2008

Or is Alaska, like, specialer than the rest of us?

They need people there to help keep the whole thing going, and it's not a place where too many people are able to live for very long. I think that's the purpose behind the subsidy, to keep the population high enough to make it worth living there for the oil company employees.
posted by cell divide at 4:36 PM on September 2, 2008

So I read this by Alan Wolfe:

It may seem like ages ago but during the Clinton administration, conservative traditionalists were everywhere. The nuclear family is sacrosanct. Women should shun the workforce and become full-time moms. Kids should obey their parents and, if they choose not to, discipline, including harsh measures, ought to be applied. Sex outside of marriage is strictly forbidden. Our culture is spinning wildly out of control, and sexual liberation, the worst byproduct of the God-awful 1960s, is the cause. And, by the way, abortion is murder and should be forbidden.

All that is left, if the Palin controversy is any indication, is abortion. Palin's defenders, far from being traditionalists, are moral relativists.

So is this accurate? Is the only thing the socially conservative voter cares about any more the a-word? I know that's not the case with my republican, Catholic mother, but maybe it is the case with the majority?
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 4:37 PM on September 2, 2008

Palin phone number, Social Security number leak in oppo file. (PDF WARNING)
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 4:38 PM on September 2, 2008

I did watch the Campbell Brown-Tucker Bounds argument live last night, and the shocking thing wasn't Bounds' inability to answer the question, it was that Campbell Brown was actually doing her job.

It was like Jeremy Paxman discovered the tunnel that led into her head, only was disappointed to find it wasn't John Malkovich.
posted by dw at 5:41 PM on September 2 [4 favorites +] [!]

There is no way that Jeremy Paxman (or John Humphries, aka Jeremy-Paxman-on-radio, with whom I'm more familiar) would have backed off like she did. I was watching that clip thinking, oh my god, the American media might be actually starting to do their jobs -- when she totally caved. "Alright, I'm going to let you have that one," and thus giving legitimacy to Bounds' blathering and all-but-lies (by suggesting but not completely claiming Palin commanded the guard overseas)?

The spirit of journalism is off in a corner being sick right now.

Okay, I shouldn't be so harsh. At least she made an effort. I just wish it had been an effort without capitulation to a feeble defence.
posted by jb at 4:39 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

They need people there to help keep the whole thing going, and it's not a place where too many people are able to live for very long.

I could say the same about certain parts of Ohio, too, but no one's cutting us in on the SE Ohio marijuana trade, or the Lake Erie salt mine.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 4:44 PM on September 2, 2008

And speaking of which, how come only Alaskans get oil dividend checks?

And for a Republican/libertarian leaning state, don't they realize that those checks are pretty much COMMUNISM? I hope they all return them to the oil companies.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 4:44 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Fourcheesemac, if McCain throws her under the bus at this point, the Republican party will probably totally implode. I'm serious. If he does that he will need to be screened for dementia.

You're using "thrown under the bus" incorrectly, but you're right. We know this was a play demanded by the evangelical-fundamentalist wing of the party. We know she wasn't properly vetted because they were so adamant at the last minute for a pro-life veep. And when they got her, they couldn't stop lauding her in every way. And the absolute pillorying she's getting? Well, that's just the Left Wing Media and Liberals! It's Persecution!

The problem, unfortunately, is that she's looking more and more like Alan Keyes. She might just be too far to the right for the GOP's own good. (She's also coming off as ruthless, petty, and mean, which, honestly, is bad. Like she's the cool kid clique enforcer in high school who never grew out of the role.)

But between the Obama = Antichrist ads and the shibboleths the advisors have been slipping in when they can to get the Religious Right listening, they've been pulling out all the stops to try and hang onto that 10% of the evangelical vote they've lost to Obama. Palin is a pander, through and through. If they wanted a pro-lifer with bona fides... Lindsey Graham? Bob Riley, governor of Alabama? Cantor from Virginia was mentioned a few times.

However, they can't replace her unless she has a "dead boy or live girl" problem. Well, they could throw her to the media wolves, mourn her loss at the hands of "the evil liberals," and go with another pro-life option. They're stuck with her.

I think she's worse than Dan Quayle. At least Quayle had 12 years in the House and Senate. At least he had a law degree. At least he had a record. He might have been dense, but he still had more experience than Palin has now. (And we questioned Quayle's experience? How naive we were.)
posted by dw at 4:44 PM on September 2, 2008

That oppo file is from her 2006 Gov opponent, Tony Knowles, it's not new.
posted by empath at 4:45 PM on September 2, 2008

as bookhouse noted above...

There's no way that could be worth the horrible PR of screwing up your first VP pick. No, they (hilariously) mean to ride this one out. :D

politically speaking, i think mccain's gambit (if indeed it was thought out!) worked to the extent that it's helped shore up the base -- if konolia is any indication, however futile :P -- but i'm pretty sure it's lost him independents, esp wrt obama:

We now have a person running for office, who is potentially a heartbeat away from becoming President of the United States, who could potentially send us straight back to medieval times. She stated in a televised debate that she supports the teaching of creationism in schools... Regardless of one's political views, I find it hard to believe the majority of this country support the candidacy of a person with such narrow-minded, backward-looking beliefs. Divisiveness is not what we need at this critical point in the evolution of our society and of the world, especially when challenges to the status quo haven't been higher in generations. Do you think China, India and Russia are moving light-years backwards in their science programs to teach creationism? Do you really think we can continue to be competitive on an increasingly challenging global stage when science is something you learn from the Bible, and not from scholarly texts in biology, anthropology, chemistry and physics? I shudder to think what will happen to our knowledge economy in such a scenario.

I have been reading a fascinating book about Intel's Andy Grove by Richard Tedlow. It traces Mr. Grove's childhood and eventual escape from Hungary in 1956, and the remarkable life he has built since his move to the U.S. Mr. Grove is a man of science, of determination, of massive intellect and is a lifelong learner. He has used his powers to fight both prostate cancer and Parkinson's disease, and was employee #3 and the architect of growth at arguably the most important company to bring us into the PC generation and out towards the Internet generation. I wonder what Governor Palin would think of Mr. Grove's life story and the role of science in his personal and professional development? It is hard to imagine this self-proclaimed "hockey mom" being impressed. Rest assured, I am.

When I see the U.S. through my prism - being whatever you want to be if you work hard enough, inclusive, edgy, aggressive about ensuing our personal freedoms, innovative, caring, focused and fierce under duress, willing to change but without compromising the spirit of our Constitution - it saddens me to see where we find ourselves. Eight years of a fractious, troubled Administration, with the possibility of not more of the same, but perhaps much, much worse...

i think brooks (kinda) gets it:

If McCain is elected, he will... be leading a divided and philosophically exhausted party. There simply aren’t enough Republican experts left to staff an administration, so he will have to throw together a hodgepodge with independents and Democrats...

the logically-challenged need not apply!
posted by kliuless at 4:47 PM on September 2, 2008

So is this accurate?

I think that article is off base and displays a lack of understanding of the average Christian evangelical/charismatic.

We still believe in chastity, in morality, etc. etc. But we also believe in redemption, in restoring those who "fall", and we definitely see no redeeming value in crucifying a young girl who, as we used to say in the old days, "got in trouble."

As I told my own daughter: Okay, you messed up. The important thing is that you are doing the right thing NOW.

She and her hubby celebrated their second anniversary yesterday. They just bought a house. My grandson is healthy and happy. THEY are happy.

See, I am an old fart who remembers that back in the old days, when morality and chastity were taught and expected throughout the old culture, there were still plenty of folks who "messed up." But even those folks agreed with the rest of us that it was best to wait till marriage for sex, it was best for moms to care for children, and so on. We all had something to live up to. Now it seems that people race to see what they can live down to, and in such a culture, it looks-and to a certain measure is-a remarkable thing when people actually take responsibility for their actions.
posted by konolia at 4:52 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Is the only thing the socially conservative voter cares about any more the a-word?

It's like a binary litmus test. Is an embryo / fetus a human or not? It's not half-human. It's not half-elf, either. It's either a human or it's not. If you firmly believe it's a human, how could you possibly support anyone that would allow the killing of a purely innocent human?

To many people, this is a bit more important than, say, tax reform. While you may not think it's smart to do so, it's perfectly logical to discard a candidate for his/her belief on this subject. If that's your deal, thinking anything else is kind of like overlooking a certain someone's actions because he made the trains run on time.

I'm pro-choice and proud of it, but like anyone, my preference for the acceptable abortion rate is zero.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:54 PM on September 2, 2008

It's ALWAYS been accurate.

Sin only matters when it's somebody else. The less like you they are; the less they look, talk, walk, dress, or fuck like you the worse their sins are. Even if you share identical sins.

Support aborting a fetus? SINNER!

Support a war that drops bombs on pregnant women and children? Hero!
posted by tkchrist at 4:54 PM on September 2, 2008 [7 favorites]

And for a Republican/libertarian leaning state, don't they realize that those checks are pretty much COMMUNISM?

To be a good Republican, you have to be able to say the following two sentences together without laughing:

1) "Keep those government flatfoots from Washington out of my hair."
2) "Hurry up with my subsidy check."

Shamelessly stolen from Berke Breathed
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:56 PM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

How does the process work if Palin is thrown out or resigns after the convention? Do the delegates have to re-gather and vote on the new VP pick? Does McCain get to pick? Does Palin get to pick? Does it go to Nancy Pelosi?
posted by troybob at 5:04 PM on September 2, 2008

Boy, the Alaskan Independence movement is spreading in the Republican party. The governor of South Carolina, a moment ago, just said that there's been a lot of vetting done on Palin, first in Alaska, "and now here in the United States".
posted by Flunkie at 5:08 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

1- In the party of Susan Collins, Lynn Martin, Elizabeth Dole, Olympia Snowe, Sandra Day O’Connor, Christine Todd Whitman, Kay Bailey Hutchinson, Margaret Spelling, Condoleeza Rice, Jeanne Kirkpatrick, Kay Orr, Susan Molinari, and Kay Granger, this was the best they could do? This choice is an insult to the women who broke that glass ceiling and put this lightweight into this position for which she is a bad joke. I think there's going to be a Bradley Effect of Repblican women who say they're voting McCain, and secretly vote for Obama or no one instead.
posted by nax at 5:11 PM on September 2, 2008 [10 favorites]

Dem's replaced their VP post convention, and lost in a landslide. Don't know how the Republican charter would handle it.

Just over two weeks after his nomination, it was revealed that McGovern's running mate, Thomas Eagleton, had received electroshock therapy for clinical depression during the 1960s. Though many people still supported Eagleton's candidacy, an increasing number of influential politicians and columnists questioned his ability to handle the office of Vice President. The resulting negative attention prompted McGovern to accept Eagleton's offer to withdraw from the ticket, replacing him with United States Ambassador to France (and brother in-law of John F. Kennedy) Sargent Shriver. This occurred after McGovern had stated publicly he was still "... behind Eagleton 1000 percent"; reneging on that statement a few days later made McGovern look indecisive. The Eagleton controversy also put the McGovern campaign off message and was speculated at the time to perhaps be a harbinger of what would become McGovern's subsequent landslide loss.[18]
posted by mrzarquon at 5:13 PM on September 2, 2008

How does the process work if Palin is thrown out or resigns after the convention?

Slate: How To Replace a Vice Presidential Nominee
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:13 PM on September 2, 2008

Palin slashed funding to teen mothers - that Alaskan socialism is only for some people.
posted by Artw at 5:15 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

meta question: This thread currently has about 185k words. How big a book would that be?
posted by ryanrs at 5:15 PM on September 2, 2008

In the party of ... Jeanne Kirkpatrick

Yeah, but to be fair, they don't have enough mana to cast Raise Dead.

Jeane Jordan Kirkpatrick --- (November 19, 1926 – December 7, 2006)
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:16 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

konolia:

See, I am an old fart who remembers that back in the old days, when morality and chastity were taught and expected throughout the old culture, there were still plenty of folks who "messed up." But even those folks agreed with the rest of us that it was best to wait till marriage for sex, it was best for moms to care for children, and so on

You make it sound like girls were "messing up" in spite of chastity-only education rather than because of it. Am I to understand that you, like Palin, couldn't even get abstinence-only to work in your own homes yet want to dictate your failed policies be made national?? The hubris is astounding.

I'd love to see a study done comparing teen pregnancy rates of children born to "abstinence-only" Christian homes with those born to homes with parents who gave them all they needed to know without the medieval moralizing.
posted by callmejay at 5:16 PM on September 2, 2008 [6 favorites]

safari is reporting 224 printed pages. typeset, possibly 100 - 150 pages?
posted by mrzarquon at 5:17 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

konolia, I think that article is off base and displays a lack of understanding of the average Christian evangelical/charismatic.

OK. My experience is with conservative Catholics and mainline Indiana protestants.

... we definitely see no redeeming value in crucifying a young girl who, as we used to say in the old days, "got in trouble."

I get that, and agree. But it's not about the girl, it's about her mother's failure to promote those values in her own actions (wasn't she pregnant before marriage?) or in raising her children, right? Overlooking that seems like moral relativism to me.

As I told my own daughter: Okay, you messed up. The important thing is that you are doing the right thing NOW. ... THEY are happy.

So, "What's important is how you feel?" What? Talk about liberal moral relativism.

See, I am an old fart who remembers that back in the old days, when morality and chastity were taught and expected throughout the old culture, there were still plenty of folks who "messed up." But even those folks agreed with the rest of us that it was best to wait till marriage for sex, it was best for moms to care for children, and so on. We all had something to live up to. Now it seems that people race to see what they can live down to, and in such a culture, it looks-and to a certain measure is-a remarkable thing when people actually take responsibility for their actions.

OK, and? It seems like you're saying the same thing as the article I quoted. "Back in the old days, we believed you should A, B and C but never ever X, Y, or Z. Now, well, never Z and do what makes you happy!"

But like I said, I'm probably mired in a catholic outlook. I don't get how someone who opposes abortions but is practically bubbly about executions is better than someone who feels the opposite. Vote Kang!
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 5:19 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Also the document size, as reported by safari, is 2.9MB, 143k being being scripts, 15.42k being stylesheets, and 14.39k as images
posted by mrzarquon at 5:20 PM on September 2, 2008

Sure, as long as you throw the abortion rates in there as well.

You do forget-I was a teen in the seventies. We had books such as The Joy of Sex readily available to us. I knew as much about the topic at seventeen as I do now. Which is plenty, but I will spare you the details.

The only way to guarantee you don't get pregnant is to not have sex.
posted by konolia at 5:21 PM on September 2, 2008

So, "What's important is how you feel?" What? Talk about liberal moral relativism

Oh, I'm sorry-was I supposed to take her out back and stone her?

Seems like a certain Someone has been quoted as saying, " Go-and sin no more."
posted by konolia at 5:23 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

meta question: This thread currently has about 185k words. How big a book would that be?

About the size of the New Testament. Nowhere near the size of the Old Testament.
posted by Flunkie at 5:25 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Capital punishment is probably not the best solution to pregnancy out of wedlock.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 5:28 PM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

But even those folks agreed with the rest of us that it was best to wait till marriage for sex, it was best for moms to care for children, and so on.

The problem is, not everyone agrees with that. Not then, and not now. And everyone gets to choose for themselves what they want in life and wouldn't it be nice if they had the proper information to do so? I like the modern age far better than this strange fake utopia you describe. It was never perfect, and it was never "agreed upon." Maybe socially pressured, but not everyone agreed.
posted by agregoli at 5:28 PM on September 2, 2008 [5 favorites]

1- In the party of Susan Collins, Lynn Martin, Elizabeth Dole, Olympia Snowe, Sandra Day O’Connor, Christine Todd Whitman, Kay Bailey Hutchinson, Margaret Spelling, Condoleeza Rice, Jeanne Kirkpatrick, Kay Orr, Susan Molinari, and Kay Granger, this was the best they could do?

No kidding. Can somebody tell me with a straight face that Christine Todd Whitman or Sandra Day O'Connor are less (or worse, EQUALLY) qualified to be VP than some church-lady goober mayor from Alaska?
posted by tkchrist at 5:33 PM on September 2, 2008

In answer about the annual Alaska checks, better known as the PFD. Every Alaskan regardless of age receives a dividend check including infants as long as residency requirements are met. There are no state taxes levied however there are Federal taxes. The PFD came about when oil wealth was placed in stock funds and managed by the state under a Democratic administration. It is joked that Alaska pissed away all of its oil wealth foolishly except for the PFD which a lot of families depend upon for extra funds. I never understood how the Republicans poopoohed such a popular thing from a Democratic administration.
posted by jadepearl at 5:35 PM on September 2, 2008

Palin is not going to be dumped from the ticket.

It ain't gonna happen.
posted by konolia at 5:35 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

185k words would be about 740 pages, paperback. Mid-sized Stephen King book.
posted by cortex at 5:37 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Callmejay brings up an excellent question konolia. Would you change your mind about abstinence-only sex education if it had been shown that more teen pregnancies occured in abstence only families vs families who promote sex education? (BTW, I have no idea if that is true, sorry for push-polling there.)
posted by batou_ at 5:38 PM on September 2, 2008

Oh, I'm sorry-was I supposed to take her out back and stone her?

No, you were (well, your husband was) supposed to charge him fifty shekels.

Seems like a certain Someone has been quoted as saying, " Go-and sin no more."

The "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" story is present in none of the known original Greek copies of the Gospel of John. None. Zero.
posted by Flunkie at 5:41 PM on September 2, 2008

Why should it implode? If the point of the nomination was the shore up the base, then assuming that the base is shored up, there is no reason to change the nomination. No, McCain is the one who is supposed to be reaching out to the center. Unless her presence on the ticket is pushing people who are currently McCain supporters away, she is doing what she was brought in to do.

That said, McCain chose somebody to be a heartbeat away from the presidency who is not qualified. What other bone-headed decisions can we expect from him if he becomes president?
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:42 PM on September 2, 2008

Possible freudian slip alert.

Republican National Committee co-chair JoAnne Davidson mistakenly referred to the party's presumptive vice-presidential candidate, Sarah Palin, as "Sarah Pawlenty" at the Republican National Convention Tuesday.

From CNN.
posted by rokusan at 5:42 PM on September 2, 2008

But as I said - moot point now that the Palin VP idea is about to implode.

Nah. The bandwidth she is soaking is worth more now. There is no bad PR when you know how to spin it and your core constituency is dumb as rocks. I bet you they will go with her.
posted by tkchrist at 5:43 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

The only way to top off this week would be if the delegates try to revolt against McCain during the role-call.
Romney/Giuliani '08! (What, a guy can dream, can't he?)
posted by Eddie Mars at 5:43 PM on September 2, 2008

Sandra Day O'Connor is six years older than McCain.
posted by ryanrs at 5:47 PM on September 2, 2008

Way, way late to the party (been reading all day just to catch up) but let me start by saying, Konolia, every time I see you pop into this thread again I just want to hug you. I don't agree with you, in a general sense, but you seriously kick ass for remaining as the now lone voice of dissent in the echo chamber, and no matter what else is said, this thread needs you.

Way up-thread you brought up how a child is not a punishment, and because you and I have had this argument before, I know how much you sincerely mean it. I praised you then and I praise you now as one of the rare breed of Pro-Lifers whom I truly respect, because your position that the life of the child is tantamount is unimpeachable. I believe Gov. Palin is the same way. Some have taken her views that she doesn't approve of abortion even in the case of rape or incest as proof that she is a radical on the issue. To me, it shows an admirable logical sincerity behind her views - one that I disagree with, but one that I can respect.

Because those pro-lifers who are okay with abortion in the case of rape or incest do not have any logically consistent concern for the child as far as their exceptions are concerned. If one truly believes that a fetus is an innocent human life which needs preservation - which isn't an unreasonable view to hold - why would that view change with the knowledge that the innocent human life needing protection was the result of a sexual assault? "You can't have an abortion, that's murdering a child!" "But I was raped!" "Oh, well that changes everything, would it make things better if we murdered a child?"

Obviously that doesn't make any sense, because no matter how much sympathy the straw man above feels for the rape victim's circumstances, if he truly believes the fetus to be equal to a newborn or toddler, he's not going to be able to stomach killing it for the victim's sake. The only logic I've found that makes it consistent is that of a very uncomfortable and antagonistic view towards sex itself, which wants to make damn sure that sex carries consequences, and one which would take culpability into thought when determining whether consequences are necessary.

There is surely a difference between punishment and responsibility, as you described above. If a child breaks a window, and then is made to work to pay to replace it, it's not really punishment for his accident, so much as teaching him or her to take responsibility. That's fine. But we know from the GOP's blocking of the HPV vaccine, which would save uncountable lives, that the Republican Party indeed wishes to punish sex, especially among women. The fact that so many Pro-Lifers are okay with relinquishing the "responsibility" of bringing a child to term if the mother is seen to be not culpable in that child's conception is just further proof that the life of the child is not the primary interest behind the policy. So it makes me dubiously happy to know that Palin doesn't share that rationale.

I feel very sorry for Bristol, because she's going to be dragged through this for at least the next two months, no matter what the circumstances surrounding it were. Voices on the right will be whispering that she's a slut, and voices on the left will be yelling that she was irresponsible and stupid. All I can say is that she's seventeen. A great many of us were having sex at seventeen, some without protection, and this is sometimes what happens. Bristol, her boyfriend, and their expected child don't deserve this.

It does, however, point to at least one major flaw in Palin's policies and at least one major flaw in her character. Sarah Palin, who is hard-line "abstinence only," has proven, anecdotally, that those policies do not prevent pregnancy. We have no way of knowing what Gov. Palin was teaching her daughters at home, and we can assume that Bristol had some understanding of what a condom is for, no matter what, so it seems likely to me that, like so many before her, teenage hormones raging, she made the decision to let the heat of the moment take over because to purchase contraception makes the act seem "pre-meditated," and makes the guilt that much worse, which is a pure product of the religious-right's war against sex. This happens all over the country every day (or night) and is why it is so important that teens learn about contraceptions in a non-judgmental way, and the only place that can happen is at school, where parents may also choose to opt their children out of it.

That's the policy flaw.

Arthur Culvahouse claims, and I believe he is lying but I can't possibly know for sure, that Palin was vetted as much as the other possible picks. He claims that they looked into her financial records and asked her a series of 70 "personally intrusive questions." He claims that she volunteered the information about Bristol's pregnancy, and that he warned her about the fact that it would come out and become national media fodder, and that she said that she would have those conversations with her daughter.

At first glance that seems reasonable, and even warm, but how do you imagine those conversations went? "Bristol, honey, mommy has a chance to be vice president, but that means that you and your future child are going to become an international side-show attraction while everybody passes judgment on you. Is that okay?" Just as with the "decision" to keep the baby, I doubt if Bristol had any real choice in the matter.

Sarah Palin knowingly brought the heavens down upon her daughter for personal gain. There's clearly a double-standard in play about whether we would care as much if she were a male politician, so let me say this. I would hate this in a man running for office as much as with a woman. The difference is that I can comprehend a man being so awful as to do this to his children, as much as I abhor it. But my experiences watching mothers and their children leaves me unable to comprehend it coming from a woman. That's a double-standard, I know, but it's just from my experience.

So that's a character flaw, and a big one. We've had three days so far to get to know Sarah Palin, and all we really know is that she will do anything for politics at the expense of her family and her own soul. She has lied or is complicit in lying about her foreign policy experience, her use of any power she can get to bully those she disagrees with, and even about winning Miss Congeniality. She has looked at her newborn son and decided that he can do without her while she campaigns. She has looked upon her daughter in the time of her greatest need and seen damage control. She is demonstrably vile, and we've only known her for three days.

Bristol Palin doesn't deserve any of this. She deserves love and support and the chance to start and raise her new family away from any spotlight, as she sees fit. It's her mother who decided to take that chance away from her.
posted by Navelgazer at 5:47 PM on September 2, 2008 [27 favorites]

Does McCain get to pick? Does Palin get to pick? Does it go to Nancy Pelosi?

Um, Pelosi is a Democrat.
posted by ericb at 5:50 PM on September 2, 2008

Romney/Giuliani '08!

Just thinking about which of those two would agree to be the bottom is going to give me nightmares.
posted by rokusan at 5:51 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

cortex: 185k words would be about 740 pages, paperback. Mid-sized Stephen King book.

Awesome. What would the title be?
posted by ryanrs at 5:51 PM on September 2, 2008

The Wassilla Junction
posted by cortex at 5:53 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Does McCain get to pick? Does Palin get to pick? Does it go to Nancy Pelosi?
Um, Pelosi is a Democrat.

That was an order of succession joke, ericb.
posted by rokusan at 5:53 PM on September 2, 2008

What would the title be?

I don't know, but about 2 chapters into it, you realize it's yet another story about a writer struggling with his inner demons.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:55 PM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

Palin personally cut funding that gave unwed mothers a place to live

"Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, the Republican vice-presidential nominee who revealed Monday that her 17-year-old daughter is pregnant, earlier this year used her line-item veto to slash funding for a state program benefiting teen mothers in need of a place to live.

After the legislature passed a spending bill in April, Palin went through the measure reducing and eliminating funds for programs she opposed. Inking her initials on the legislation -- 'SP' -- Palin reduced funding for Covenant House Alaska by more than 20 percent, cutting funds from $5 million to $3.9 million. Covenant House is a mix of programs and shelters for troubled youths, including Passage House, which is a transitional home for teenage mothers.

According to Passage House's web site, its purpose is to provide 'young mothers a place to live with their babies for up to eighteen months while they gain the necessary skills and resources to change their lives' and help teen moms 'become productive, successful, independent adults who create and provide a stable environment for themselves and their families.'"

posted by ericb at 5:55 PM on September 2, 2008 [7 favorites]

That was an order of succession joke, ericb.

Oh. Get it now. ; )
posted by ericb at 5:56 PM on September 2, 2008

The Wassilla Junction

What's your function?

Picking out sound bites and making them lean Right.
posted by tkchrist at 5:57 PM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

When will we see Palin interviewed? Will she appear on "Meet the Press," etc?

"[McCain campaign chair Rick] Davis demurred when asked when Palin will sit for interviews with major news organizations, pointing out that now would not be the right time given the 'combative' attitude the media has seemingly adopted toward Palin." ^*

posted by ericb at 5:59 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Republican faces have got to be killing them after five days of forced smiling.
posted by troybob at 6:00 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

GOP's blocking of the HPV vaccine

That vaccine doesn't protect against all HPV viruses. I see that as more of an issue of a drug company seeing a way to make a lot of money off young girls. But that is for another thread and another day....

Bristol Palin doesn't deserve any of this.

No, but she IS the daughter of a seated Governor. She had to know that whatever she did the last year and a half would at least be in an Alaskan fishbowl.

Besides, I don't think anyone is calling her a slut. I think just about unilaterally all she is getting from the blogosphere and the public is sympathy, empathy, and good wishes.

Besides, think about it this way-would you like to be a teen who thought that just because you made a mistake, your mom had to turn down the opportunity of a lifetime?

I figure that mom and daughter did discuss this. If Bristol were unhappy about mom taking the position, believe me, we'd have ways to know that.
posted by konolia at 6:02 PM on September 2, 2008

Seems more and more that Sarah Palin is full of hypocritical impulses and rather mean-spirited political maneuvering. These being very common conservative Republican traits, I side with konolia in believing she will not be dumped, but instead will be lionized by the slut haters (and I agree that konolia is not of this stripe). It will be interesting to see how she fares in the culture-war battles of this campaign. We just need to remember, it's not about right or wrong, it's about who can spin the best.
posted by Mental Wimp at 6:02 PM on September 2, 2008

Are we sure James Dobson didn't slip something into his drink?

Despite Saying Working Moms Likely To ‘Go Over The Edge,’ Dobson Embraces Palin’s VP Candidacy.
posted by ericb at 6:03 PM on September 2, 2008

The "let he who is without sin cast the first stone" story is present in none of the known original Greek copies of the Gospel of John. None. Zero.

Who cares? It's a damn good story and one I think we'd all like to see more of. Remember: everybody needs a hug.
posted by infinitewindow at 6:05 PM on September 2, 2008

Oh, good lord. Chris Matthews just referred to McCain and Palin as "two Teddy Roosevelt types".

Well, we see that tweety is reading & quoting the republican talking points - the Teddy Roosevelt thing is one of the consistent lines. I've heard the "Russia close to Alaska" one touted several times, too, but that one is so zany, the media won't even touch it.

The spinmeisters have outdone themselves. They have finally introduced some talking points that even most of the lapdog media can't quite bring themselves to repeat.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:05 PM on September 2, 2008

callmejoy:"I'd love to see a study done comparing teen pregnancy rates ..."

2007 Study Casts Doubt on Abstinence-Only Programs
... Mathematica's results underscore what other, smaller studies have shown: "The most effective programs are those that say abstinence is the best choice but birth control and protection are also worth knowing about."

The federal government spends $176 million a year on abstinence-only education, and millions more are spent every year in state and local matching grants.
posted by Surfurrus at 6:07 PM on September 2, 2008

That vaccine doesn't protect against all HPV viruses. I see that as more of an issue of a drug company seeing a way to make a lot of money off young girls.

And, you know, saving some lives. But meh, it's just some get-rich-quick-scheme, that vaccine.

Would you feel the same way if that drug wasn't there to help prevent a sexually transmitted disease? I sincerely doubt it.
posted by agregoli at 6:11 PM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

Why the Pregnancy Issue is Not Off Limits.
posted by ericb at 6:11 PM on September 2, 2008

Well, we see that tweety is reading & quoting the republican talking points - the Teddy Roosevelt thing is one of the consistent lines.

Yeah, I was (but I guess shouldn't have been) surprised when, after Matthews was gushing over himself to proclaim McCain and Palin "Teddy Roosevelt types", they cut to the actual convention, wherein Republicans were praising Teddy Roosevelt.

Reminded me of last week, where, just before Obama's speech, Tom Brokaw blithely stated that it looked to him like the backdrop to the stage looked "imperious" and that he thought the Republicans were "going to" hit on that - as if it just came into his head out of the blue, as if it hadn't been a consistent Republican talking point for a week.
posted by Flunkie at 6:11 PM on September 2, 2008

Congressman Barney Frank: Sarah Palin Family Life Fair Game.
posted by ericb at 6:12 PM on September 2, 2008

Kanolia, thank you for responding to my comments.

Besides, think about it this way-would you like to be a teen who thought that just because you made a mistake, your mom had to turn down the opportunity of a lifetime?

But this is exactly what I'm saying. That sort of pressure not to be that kind of teen prevented Bristol from having any real choice in the matter, meanwhile her mother was willing to be exactly the sort of person who would sell out her daughter's best interests for politics.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:12 PM on September 2, 2008 [5 favorites]

This is the paradox of the conservative "pro-life" position: Practically, criminalizing abortion will do little to decrease the number of abortions. It was, in fact, not all that effective before and I imagine it would be even less successful if implemented today. It will increase the danger of abortion to women who can't afford or don't have the connections for the "special doctor" when they resort to less safe methods, such as, in the 19th century, pills sold to cure "suppressed periods" with warning notices that they certainly shouldn't be taken during pregnancy because they will surely induce a miscarriage. Here's one example of how it would be during the 21st century.

Good, fact-based sexual education would decrease the number of abortions. Increased use of contraceptives would decrease the number of abortions.

"Abstinence-only sex ed" is, in practical effect, a more "anti-life" position than anything Planned Parenthood endorses.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 6:14 PM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

Would you feel the same way if that drug wasn't there to help prevent a sexually transmitted disease? I sincerely doubt it.

You would be wrong.

I do not have time to google the stats I saw on this vaccine and how scare tactics are used to market it-and as I said that is a thread for another day.
posted by konolia at 6:15 PM on September 2, 2008

I figure that mom and daughter did discuss this. If Bristol were unhappy about mom taking the position, believe me, we'd have ways to know that.

Nah, Sahah didn't even KNOW Bristol was up the pole til Sunday after the media got to it - and if she DID know before then, she's a complete asshole for dragging that poor kid through this.

Lose lose.
posted by tristeza at 6:16 PM on September 2, 2008

... Mathematica's results underscore what other, smaller studies have shown: "The most effective programs are those that say abstinence is the best choice but birth control and protection are also worth knowing about."

If I understood the linked article correctly, this compared abstinence-only programs to no program. It doesn't really address other programs, does it? I conclude that from the following:

All of the children received the family life services available in their community, in addition, slightly more than half of them also received abstinence-only education.

But I may have misunderstood.
posted by Mental Wimp at 6:16 PM on September 2, 2008

I'd love to see a study done comparing teen pregnancy rates

Anecdotally: My high school class of 1981 was was the last to receive any contraceptive education (actually they cue sex ed altogether) in my old high school until they re-introduced it again five years later.

My class: ZERO Pregnancies.

Class of 1982: 2 pregnancies.

Class of 1983: 3 pregnancies.

After that I don't know for sure I know of at least two. I bet there were more.

But the year they brought back in sex ed there were no pregnancies. I know this becuase a friend, and alum, came in as a teacher to the school.

It could be there more abortions while sex ed was taught but I doubt that very much. I don't think Planned parenthood opened up there until the mid eighties.
posted by tkchrist at 6:17 PM on September 2, 2008

The only way to guarantee you don't get pregnant is to not have sex.
posted by konolia

OR ... to provide good contraception and good advice ... AND to provide universal access to the emergency contraceptive pill -- the one that can not terminate an existing pregnancy (a common myth-lie of the anti-woman community).

BTW, please re-define your word "life" to include more than zygotes.
posted by Surfurrus at 6:17 PM on September 2, 2008

If those stats come from a reliable, non-conservative blog source, I might take a look at them. But the Right is so full of misinformation that you'll forgive me for doubting your claim.
posted by agregoli at 6:19 PM on September 2, 2008

Governor Palin brought her daughter to the RNC, planted her on stage holding her son, and talked about her marvelous family. Instead of saying something like: "I have five wonderful children and we're expecting a grandchild soon", she said nothing. She let the likes of the National Enquirer connect the dots and announce her daughter's pregnancy. How cold is that?
posted by rdr at 6:23 PM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

Yeah, what Surfurrus linked to at 9:07: not only do abstinence-only programs not work, but the more "liberal" states have lower rates of teen pregnancy, lower rates of abortion, AND they have lower divorce rates, at least partially because they don't put as much pressure on 17-year-olds to get married. It's pretty well correlated: the more "conservative" the state, the higher the rates of teen pregnancy, abortion, and divorce.

(The state with the lowest divorce rate is - of course - Massachusetts. It might be too soon to tell, but same-sex marriages so far seem to have very low divorce rates.)

The more born-agains a state has, the higher the rates.

Now, why is this? Much of it is directly related to poverty rates, of course, but a lot of it is due to the fact that conservatism is really a terrible guide to life here in the 21st century.
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 6:24 PM on September 2, 2008 [6 favorites]

You would be wrong.

I do not have time to google the stats I saw on this vaccine and how scare tactics are used to market it-and as I said that is a thread for another day.

konolia, I am a cancer prevention researcher, and I'm afraid you are the one mistaken about the HPV vaccine. Its biggest problem is that physicians are prescribing it for women who are too old to benefit and the companies are not discouraging this. It is very effective at preventing cervical dysplasia, the precursor to cervical cancer, and it targets high risk serotypes that cause over 70% of all cervical cancer. By opposing vaccination of girls, you condemn many, many women to eventually getting cervical cancer.
posted by Mental Wimp at 6:24 PM on September 2, 2008 [32 favorites]

Digby has a good post on the Alaskan Independence Party and more on Palin's involvement with the AIP:

"If she attended the 1994 Alaska Independent Party convention then she was walking perilously close to Tim McVeigh territory.

This woman seems to have come from the radical fringe of the conservative movement and if she had run for Governor in a state less tolerant of eccentric extremists, she probably could not have won because of it. It's not just the social conservatism, although she's way out there on that. It also appears that she may have traveled in some strange and sometimes violent far right circles that were prevalent in the Western States a decade and a half ago. It isn't just John McCain's judgment we should be worried about."
posted by madamjujujive at 6:25 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

I don't think McCain will dump Palin from the ticket - konolia is right, he can't alienate the Republican party's religious conservative base like that. I think he's just going to have to change his strategy. I think his campaign will be less focused on independents and more on convincing the base to turn out. This is how Bush won in 2000 and 2004, and I think it makes sense from an electoral college perspective. The states that McCain can't afford to lose - Iowa, Colorado, Virginia, Ohio - all have a large number of religious conservative voters.

Anyway, this is turning out to be the most exciting presidential election in my lifetime. Good times for this political junkie!
posted by thewittyname at 6:26 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

I am a cancer prevention researcher

So. God says your wrong.
posted by tkchrist at 6:27 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

McCain cancelling Larry King because his flunky got asked a question, based on a statement he'd just made, that he couldn't answer. Isn't that the job of reporters, to ask questions and not let people try to talk around them?

What a petulant wuss. Yeah, that's what we need in the White House. If he can't stand the heat *now*, then he's not gonna be able to stand the heat of being in the White House. Experience he has got. But he's obviously 'judgmentally impaired', so I'm guessing all the experience didn't impart much wisdom upon his neural network.

It's the Republican National Catastrofuck!
posted by jamstigator at 6:28 PM on September 2, 2008 [5 favorites]

THOU SHALT NOT USE "YOUR" WHEN YOU MEAN "YOU'RE."

I think that's like, the 27th commandment or sumpin'.
posted by Mental Wimp at 6:33 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Abstinence Only Policy Not The Answer To Preventing Teenage Pregnancy

"A new study has showed that the falling teenage pregnancy rate in the United States is not due to young people abstaining from sex, but as a result of a wider and better uptake of contraceptives and condoms. The Bush administration has been claiming for years that abstinence is the answer to dealing with unwanted teenage pregnancies.

You can read about this new study in the American Journal of Public Health.

The study found that abstinence accounted for only 14% of the fall in teenage pregnancies over the last decade, while 86% was due to better use of contraceptives and condoms. There was a 27% drop in the teenage pregnancy rate during the decade up to 2002. The study found that in 2002 sexually active teenagers had better use of contraceptive methods, including condoms and birth control pills than in 1995.

Many publicly funded programs in the USA promote abstinence-only-until-marriage at the cost of education on contraception - these programs prohibit information about the advantages/benefits of condoms and contraception."

Teen Births Up for First Time in 15 Years

"After years of decline, the teen birth rate rose in 2006 for the first time since 1991, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) reported in December.

...Several individuals, including a teacher and a doctor, expressed concern with the misinformation about sex among teens during the online chat. Some pointed to their local abstinence-only programs, saying that teens under these programs that chose to be sexually active were left with very little information about contraception.

Albert said that at present, there is no evidence to suggest that abstinence-only interventions are effective, but that programs that encourage both abstinence and contraception have been shown to be effective.

'We have a growing amount of evidence suggesting that sex education that discusses both abstinence and contraception are effective at delaying sex and improving contraceptive use among sexually active teens,' Albert said. 'The teen pregnancy rate in the U.S. has declined an extraordinary 36 percent since 1990 due to less sex and more contraception. We need more of both.'"

posted by ericb at 6:33 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

If he can't stand the heat *now*, then he's not gonna be able to stand the heat of being in the White House.

Because he'll be able to extreme rendition Anderson Coopers ass and nuke anybody else that dares get uppity with the questions and the smart mouth.
posted by tkchrist at 6:34 PM on September 2, 2008

I wish you people had vetted Clinton this well back in the day....

We knew everything there was to know about Clinton and voted for him anyway (Well, I was twelve, but you get the point). If all this stuff about Palin had come out piece by piece over a long campaign it wouldn't have been that big of an issue, and most shocking revelation -- that her daughter was pregnant might never have happened. Remember, John McCain has been running for president longer then Palin has been the governor of Alaska.

But the fact that this is all coming out at once is making her look pretty bad, and drowning out all of her positives.

She seems nice, and is probably an OK governor for Alaska, but I would not want her to be president of the U.S, it would be a disaster.

Sure, as long as you throw the abortion rates in there as well. –konolia

You're not seriously suggesting that abstinence only education would lower abortion rates, are you? I mean, it seems obvious that fewer unplanned pregnancies would result in fewer abortions, and we do know that abstinence only education increases unplanned pregnancies. There is nothing in abstinence only education that would reduce the chance for a pregnancy -- once it occurs could end in abortion. After all, if they do get pregnant, they obviously weren’t following their instructions.

"[McCain campaign chair Rick] Davis demurred when asked when Palin will sit for interviews with major news organizations, pointing out that now would not be the right time given the 'combative' attitude the media has seemingly adopted toward Palin."

Is he fucking kidding? What does he think the media's job is?
posted by delmoi at 6:36 PM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

konolia, I echo what others say about you hanging out to stick up for your point of view. I disagree with it, but good on you for bucking the tide here.

Can you tell me what you understand the position of the anti-abortion contingent is about criminal penalties if abortion is outlawed? Would women be jailed or have other criminal penalties if they tried to give themselves an abortion or get an illegal abortion?
posted by madamjujujive at 6:36 PM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

Chris Matthews just referred to McCain and Palin as "two Teddy Roosevelt types"

They're going to call for National Health Insurance?
posted by lukemeister at 6:37 PM on September 2, 2008

THOU SHALT NOT USE "YOUR" WHEN YOU MEAN "YOU'RE."

I think that's like, the 27th commandment or sumpin'.

Just what this country needs is another elitist with their fancy grammar, and their hoity-toity Ivy League Government and Law this and that, and their flipp'n cancer research, telling us noble god fear'n ordinary Americans how they can talk, and impregnate, and vote and shit.

Ya know my fitness instructor told me that it's communists like you that are trying to put fluoride in the babies food! Well. I nevar!
posted by tkchrist at 6:39 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

I figure that mom and daughter did discuss this. If Bristol were unhappy about mom taking the position, believe me, we'd have ways to know that.

On NBC tonight they pointed out that Bristol went against her mother's wish that she and Levi get married this summer. I'll dig up the clip when/if it is posted online.
posted by ericb at 6:43 PM on September 2, 2008

"Fox News Kondracke and Kristol smack down on Bristol Palin. Kondracke says this shows Republicans abstinence does not work. Kristol goes haywire."
posted by ericb at 6:46 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

I am without a doubt, a long time fervent, a secessionist.
I think I still will vote Obama, the only pol I've ever, at 45, given money to or physically worked to get elected.
but ericb (whom I have spoken to via email, 4cheese, and a few others are really, REALLY making me wanna vote Sarah before you 'cuse me of whatever, know for more than a year I have been behind Barak, and it's proved by my record here.i
So yeah, what you say may effect votes, even thoses of people who think their own vote is worthless.
I do have a few friends who have served hard (worse than Gitmo) time in the American Gulag and they want me to vote Sarah, hardcore tattooed killer types want me to vote Sarah.
Hell, I just might do that.
ericb and co are so damn close to convincing me.
posted by dawson at 6:46 PM on September 2, 2008

Can you tell me what you understand the position of the anti-abortion contingent is about criminal penalties if abortion is outlawed? Would women be jailed or have other criminal penalties if they tried to give themselves an abortion or get an illegal abortion?

That is a very legitimate question...as far as I can tell any criminal penalties would be directed at abortion providers, not the pregnant women. And I think most of all people like myself are interested in people not feeling like they NEED to have an abortion if they get pregnant.
posted by konolia at 6:47 PM on September 2, 2008

Chris Matthews just referred to McCain and Palin as "two Teddy Roosevelt types"
They're going to call for National Health Insurance?

Unfortunately, I think the similarity is probably more along the lines of Roosevelt's quote, "I should welcome almost any war, for I think this country needs one".
posted by Flunkie at 6:49 PM on September 2, 2008

ericb and co are so damn close to convincing me.

Why. though? Please explain why.
posted by penduluum at 6:52 PM on September 2, 2008

Why. though? Please explain why.

Because some convict murderer dude with a Tattoo told him that listening to careful reasoned evidence outlining why a particular candidate is not qualified is for fags. Can't you read?
posted by tkchrist at 6:56 PM on September 2, 2008 [6 favorites]

Why are people still talking about the pregnancy?

If you are looking for reasons to criticise Palin, why not talk about how she lied in her first speech about the bridge to nowhere?

(Actually, I looked up that bridge, and I might have supported it - it wasn't a bridge to nowhere, but to an important airport. But she shouldn't have lied about not supporting it.)
posted by jb at 6:57 PM on September 2, 2008

That is a very legitimate question...as far as I can tell any criminal penalties would be directed at abortion providers, not the pregnant women. And I think most of all people like myself are interested in people not feeling like they NEED to have an abortion if they get pregnant.

Konolia, I think I agree with you here in your aims, and I bet most of us would as well, actually. That's why I'm so supportive of adoption education, open adoptions, and the movie Juno.

Bristol "got in trouble," as you say, and may love Levi in a way which will last their whole lives. I don't know. I just know that they are seventeen and that he's said that he doesn't want kids. I don't hold anything against him for his pride in being "a fucking redneck," because as much as I love New York, I grew up in Texas and Oklahoma and know how great fucking rednecks can be, not just as friends, but also as loving fathers.

Bristol's case seems to me, however, to be pret-a-porter for an Open Adoption plan. What little information we have seems to point to the fact that the kids don't really want to get married. Bristol, no matter what the circumstances of the decision were, has made her choice to keep the baby, which I think is great. In my ideal world, abortions would be legal, but it'd be irrelevant because it would almost never happen (unless the mother's life were threatened).

There are simply so many potential parents out there who want to raise children in a loving household, and so many unplanned pregnancies out there, that it feels like a very crucial part of the dialog is missing.

So I ask you, having been through a similar situation as a caring mother, do you think that Sarah and Bristol discussed the option of an Open Adoption?
posted by Navelgazer at 6:59 PM on September 2, 2008 [5 favorites]

And I think most of all people like myself are interested in people not feeling like they NEED to have an abortion if they get pregnant.

Oh, I wouldn't need to. But I would want to. Desperately. And there's nothing you can do to change that. Not everyone thinks the same.
posted by agregoli at 7:00 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

In October, 2007, Dexter Clark, the AIP's vice chairman, was recorded on video saying that Palin had been a registered member of the AIP before switching to the GOP to be viable.

That is so fucking awesome.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:01 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

And you know what? Strike that. I would NEED to, because I know (ONLY I know) what is best for me and my life. And that includes never having children. I am grateful every day that my right over my own body and life is still sort-of secure, and I'll never give up that right willingly.
posted by agregoli at 7:03 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Why. though? Please explain why.
the visceral hatred, bitterness and petty churlishness really, really, really make many of us sick and tired and protective of women, whatever they believe.
You may not know me, but most who do realize I have loathed McCain even when "everyone" adored him.
This is just about Palin.
also, I'm sitting on the couch with dear friends of several political 'stripes'.
So, this touch pad sucks, and I care abt them more than most others, so heap scorn and whatever. Just don't stop helping me make this crucial decision.
posted by dawson at 7:04 PM on September 2, 2008

Can we stop talking about Palin's daughter— using her and her boyfriends first names like they're adorable Soap Opera characters were rooting will elope in the Season Finale.

STOP IT. It's ridiculous. It's irrelevant.

There is only one person that matters: Sarah Palin. And there is only one issue: She is utterly unqualified.

For fuck sake.
posted by tkchrist at 7:05 PM on September 2, 2008 [6 favorites]

8:47 CDT [Sean] The Washington Post reports that Sarah Palin was a part-owner of an Anchorage car wash, that she failed to report her stake in the company, and that the company was eventually shut down by the state for not paying state licensing fees.

"The warning letter was written on state letterhead, which carried Palin's name at the top, next to the state seal." Heh.
posted by Flunkie at 7:06 PM on September 2, 2008

criminal penalties would be directed at abortion providers, not the pregnant women

Because of course these abortion-getting women are just victims of the diabolical baby-killing doctors, correct? I mean honestly, how is it that this position doesn't completely reduce women to little more than birthing units, utterly incapable of making their own decisions (and the consequences that go with those decisions) about their own bodies?

Konolia, the problem with your rationale is that, logically, it has to be an all-or-nothing punishment. Either women are fully responsible for their actions and therefore must suffer the consequences of the murder they've perpetrated along with their doctors, or they're not. Just punishing the doctors won't cut it.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:09 PM on September 2, 2008 [6 favorites]

And I think most of all people like myself are interested in people not feeling like they NEED to have an abortion if they get pregnant.

Then I am sure you are a strong advocate of social programs for single mothers?

Frankly, I've always thought that abortion is a red-herring. If it's legal or not, there will always be a certain number of abortions. However, if we work to build strong social support for single mothers and institute measures to hold men financially and socially responsible for the children they help create, I bet we'd see a precipitous drop in abortion rates. It's not that abortion is this big attractive thing that magically draws pregnant women to it. It's the fear of what happens after they are pregnant that drives women to abortion. This endless legal wrangling doesn't seem to be saving many "babies." Build social supports now. Work for that. If anti-choice proponents did this I would sure as well respect them more because they would be at least be consistent. I've yet to hear one anti-choice proponent ever mention the need for more social programs for single mothers. No, they just want them to keep the baby. The pregnancy is their business, but the abject poverty the child and mother might live in is not their problem.
posted by milarepa at 7:09 PM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

konolia writes "And I think most of all people like myself are interested in people not feeling like they NEED to have an abortion if they get pregnant."

"People like you" -- Christian Republicans -- are in favor of expanded social welfare programs, including free health care, food and rent aid, Head Start and free breakfasts at public schools?

Because a lot of women abort because they don't think they can financially afford to give (another) kid a decent life. But I don't see many Republicans (or Christians) calling for more social welfare programs.

I see prosperity gospel, that tells people that if they're good with God, the money will follow. I see the acolytes of laissez faire explaining that market forces are God, and Wall Street is His prophet. I see apologists for corporate welfare promising to "trickle down" on the poor.

I see "faith-based" groups offering to take a cut of welfare money, if they can profit from, and proselytize to, the poor, but somehow unwilling to volunteer to provide these services themselves without a cut, or without trying to convert those aided.

But I don't see any Christian Republicans worrying about the poor, Christian, (and mostly white) kids in Kentucky whose teeth rot out, for lack of dental care, before they can graduate high school.

What Church, what Republican state committee do I go to see that?
posted by orthogonality at 7:14 PM on September 2, 2008 [25 favorites]

185k words would be about 740 pages, paperback. Mid-sized Stephen King book.
posted by cortex

This thread is about the same size as a Stephen King book, and just as scary.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 7:15 PM on September 2, 2008

also, I'm sitting on the couch with dear friends of several political 'stripes'.

So you got friends over. And you're on Metafilter? Let me introduce you to Social Skills 101.

Step 1: Turn off computer.
Step 2: Share beverage with friends.
Step 3: Converse.

So, this touch pad sucks, and I care abt them more than most others, so heap scorn and whatever. Just don't stop helping me make this crucial decision.

If the discussion is this thread has so weakened your reasoning to push TOWARDS a candidate you already profess to hate... then, sir, I must question the powers of your reasoning.

You want us to believe the refined political sensibilities of you and your friends (Hi Tatoo Killer Dude!) are so offended by what is basically the ever present prurient background noise of American society, here and everywhere, amidst a SEA of veritable factual carefully and meticulously condemning John McCain and his idiotic VP choice? But what puts you off the fense is... the dirt? (CTMD: What kind of Convict Tattoo Murderer Dude are you to be so sentimental?) Well. I don't know what to say.

Other than I can only doubt your (how shall I say this?) integrity on this matter. Nothing personal. Just a hunch.

Seriously. You and Convict Tattoo Murder Dude should vote your.... conscience on this one and leave meta filter and the rest of the media be. It obviously ain't gonna help you. Go have a beer.
posted by tkchrist at 7:17 PM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

I think I still will vote Obama, the only pol I've ever, at 45, given money to or physically worked to get elected.
but ericb (whom I have spoken to via email, 4cheese, and a few others are really, REALLY making me wanna vote Sarah before you 'cuse me of whatever, know for more than a year I have been behind Barak, and it's proved by my record here.

Believe me, I've lost a ton of respect for a few posters here, but don't let a few jackasses (who exist just as much if not more so in bulk on the other side -- Barack the secret Muslim, anyone?) prevent you from voting for the one you know is the most capable person for the job. Don't punish the candidate (and the rest of us) because of a few numbnuts.
posted by dirigibleman at 7:18 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

dawson, voting for McCain would not constitute a protection of women, whatever you may have decided about what other people here have decided about his running mate. In any case, you said about what I thought you were going to say, to which I only wanted to respond that it seems really ... ill-advised to vote out of revenge. Ill-advised in the sense of accomplishing nothing, and also perhaps helping to accomplish the goals of people you're falling over yourself to tell us you disagree with. So: having received your explanation I guess I'll just return to avidly lurking.

Oh one more thing: despite the fact that I disagree with konolia on exactly everything I've read her say here, I also want to personally thank her for sticking around and standing in. I've learned and continue to learn a lot.
posted by penduluum at 7:19 PM on September 2, 2008

You cannot decide that certain political positions such as sex/abstinence education, abortion, gun control, school funding/vouchers, etc., are actually evidence of your “values” or worse of “family values” and then claim that the effects and evidence of these values on your own family are irrelevant. What’s the difference between that and advocating, for instance, for financial disclosure for public officials, and then claiming that your own finances are off limits? (oh, wait…). What the Republicans are really saying, is that when Democrats pull this shit it’s clear that they are evil doers with no family values, but when Republicans do it it’s “off limits.” Obama doesn’t have experience? Hammer this home until all the idiots believe it. Palin doesn’t have experience? Next question. Hillary didn’t kick the bastard out? She’ll do anything for political gain. McCain dumped his disabled wife like bad garbage? That’s a personal family issue.
posted by nax at 7:20 PM on September 2, 2008 [7 favorites]

Can we stop talking about Palin's daughter
"We' are the ones who started the topic, we can't very well demand these frivolous subjects non-issues at this point, now can we.
posted by dawson at 7:21 PM on September 2, 2008

That is a very legitimate question...as far as I can tell any criminal penalties would be directed at abortion providers, not the pregnant women.

...which once again proves that you don't really think abortion is murder. If you did, you'd support simply treating physicians providing abortions as hit men and the pregnant women as the scum who hired them.

You can't possibly expect anyone to believe that you think that a mother who kills, or hires someone to kill, her three-year-old should face no prosecution whatsoever. Not for murder, not for manslaughter, not for assault.

Which means that you think that whatever abortion is, it is not equivalent to a mother killing her child.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:24 PM on September 2, 2008 [9 favorites]

"We' are the ones who started the topic, we can't very well demand these frivolous subjects non-issues at this point, now can we.

Sorry. I don't read you. BTW. Found that bald German midget yet?
posted by tkchrist at 7:26 PM on September 2, 2008

That is a very legitimate question...as far as I can tell any criminal penalties would be directed at abortion providers, not the pregnant women.

If a woman went somewhere with her 6-month old baby, and asked someone to kill it for her, she'd be doing some serious time. You're not advocating this. So, you're saying it's not really murder, then. Because if it was murder, the mother would be an accomplice / doing murder-for-hire. You're saying it's something different from murder, that the life in question is not equivalent to a born human.

And by making abortion criminal, you're going to end up with criminals performing abortions. And you're going to end up with people trying to perform their own abortion due to their desperation and lack of criminal connections, resulting in more lives being lost.

And I think most of all people like myself are interested in people not feeling like they NEED to have an abortion if they get pregnant.

That is noble. But find me a person on the face of the Earth who things abortion is a swell thing, and wishes more of them were performed.

You want to try to decrease the number of abortions performed by making them illegal. Just like making drugs illegal has decreased the number of drug addicts, right? That sure worked well.

Other people want to try to decrease the number of abortions too, but to achieve this by providing practical, realistic assistance for people. People are going to fuck. It's a basic human drive, and a basic human right, and keeping people in the dark, without access to contraception, without education, simply telling them not to fuck isn't ever going to work.

Contraception can fail, but it sure helps.

Abstinence can fail, too. Sometimes it's just human nature and passion. Sometimes, it's rape.

We want to make sure people who get abortions aren't going be harmed in the process. Less lives lost.

It's about ideology versus reality. When it comes to matters like this, the law means shit, the law is never going to prevent an abortion, it's just going to make it more dangerous, with less regulation, less support, more hiding, less honesty, less information.
posted by Jimbob at 7:26 PM on September 2, 2008 [9 favorites]

Actually, that's not necessarily true -- she may think that women are the equivalent of children -- incapable of making a moral decision without the guidance of a male, and so less culpable.
posted by empath at 7:27 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

oh here's the bald German midget,he was up my ass! voting Paul he says.Likes the name...nothing more.
posted by dawson at 7:29 PM on September 2, 2008

loving the rnc right now. Literally watching the elite upper class deceive the lower class. live and direct, and unreal. They're keeping Palin, and they're running completely on fear and emotion. The presidential and vice presidential debates will be fear mongering, p.o.w. callouts and stall tactics.

Damn I wish they'd given Gwen Ifill one of the presidential debates.
posted by cashman at 7:35 PM on September 2, 2008

Olbermann has an audible sneer, even before the camera shows him.
posted by empath at 7:36 PM on September 2, 2008

milarepa and orthogonality, I might be wrong about this, but I feel like I vaguely remember konolia speaking in long-ago threads about single mothers/pregnant women whom she and her family helped out through their time of need. Again, I might be be mistaken, but as far as my memory goes, konolia walks the walk.

That said, both of your comments, on the political if not personal level, hold water.

I wasn't really directing that at konolia personally, although I guess it came off that way. It was directed more at what I see as the general hypocrisy or apathy of the anti-choice crusaders and their talking points.
posted by milarepa at 7:38 PM on September 2, 2008

oh here's the bald German midget,he was up my ass!

I hate it when that happens. Keeps you up nights singing Lili Marlene, doesn't he. And the clanking of the beer steins can really hurt. Well you tell him from me he ain't no Marlene Dietrich!
posted by tkchrist at 7:38 PM on September 2, 2008

That is a very legitimate question...as far as I can tell any criminal penalties would be directed at abortion providers, not the pregnant women.

That seems awfully inconsistent. If a fetus is a human being, if abortion is infanticide, if there's a holocaust going on in the USA, as you've said before, then why wouldn't a woman who murders her own child be legally accountable? If you really believe that abortion is the murder of an baby, then shouldn't you be in favor of the death penalty or life in prison for the monstrous women who commit such an act?
posted by EarBucket at 7:38 PM on September 2, 2008

I wonder what Konolia thinks should happen to women who try to abort their own babies (perhaps with a coathanger) Should they be punished as a 'provider'?
posted by delmoi at 7:39 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

It just got very weird in here.
posted by tkchrist at 7:40 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Wow, Grampy Fred was riveting.

If "riveting" means "soporific".

Pat Buchanan says it was a great speech; maybe I've just heard about McCain's arms being broken by his Vietnamese captors one time too many.

But here's what I stayed up for: Benedict Joe Loserman aka Holier-than-thou Droopy Dog.
posted by orthogonality at 7:40 PM on September 2, 2008

JOEMENTUM!

"Don't worry, I'll be at John McCain's side whenever he makes a basic mistake confusing what large groups of people do or do not support Al Qaeda!"
posted by Flunkie at 7:41 PM on September 2, 2008

Oh god, Joe Lieberman (is on). His gulpy voice is like nails on chalkboards to me now.
posted by delmoi at 7:41 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Tepid applause so far for Joe Loserman.
posted by empath at 7:42 PM on September 2, 2008

And I think most of all people like myself are interested in people not feeling like they NEED to have an abortion if they get pregnant.

Bringing this back to Palin herself -- and above in the thread -- she doesn't seem very supportive of teens in crisis, including unwed mothers. I would have such an easier time buying the "family values" trope if it was actually true. Why not use some of those sweet oil revenues to shore up the support system for these women? Why is it that Republicans are so quick to protect the children until they're actually born, at which time they're on their own? I really, really want to understand the reasoning behind this.

No, really. I do.

Let's assume that Republicans and their supporters do want to help women prevent abortions, and support them after the birth. Why, then, do we not have universal health care? Why don't we strengthen the social services net? Why don't we have realistic sex education? These things would give women of all ages (and classes) more options, options they don't have now under our current system.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 7:43 PM on September 2, 2008

"I'm here to support John McCain because country matters more then party"

Even when that country is the Independent Biblical Nation of Alaska.
posted by delmoi at 7:45 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Weird framing from lieberman. It's all about government 'solving problems' and taking care of suffering people. Not going over well.
posted by empath at 7:46 PM on September 2, 2008

I can hear Olbermann's sneer all the way up here in the Bronx. And my TV isn't even't on!
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 7:48 PM on September 2, 2008

It's all about government 'solving problems' and taking care of suffering people.

He means "In Iraq."
posted by tkchrist at 7:50 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Weird framing from lieberman.

The part that strikes me as particularly weird (for the convention so far, not just Lieberman) is the cognitive dissonance of two separate themes that are both being pushed strongly:

(1) Washington needs to be cleaned up, it's been the same old do-nothing politicians with do-nothing politics for decades

(2) John McCain has decades of experience in Washington politics
posted by Flunkie at 7:54 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

This thread:

a) is useless without macros
and
b) just kept me up past 4am when I finally thought I'd got my sleep cycle back on track.

I love you, Metafilter. Don't ever change.
posted by aihal at 7:56 PM on September 2, 2008

I had a conversation with my dad (a Limbaugh Republican) last night about the election. He doesn't like McCain, doesn't think he'd be a good president, but he's voting for him anyway because of one issue--abortion. I asked him what the Republican party has done for evangelicals on abortion in the last 30 years, and he wasn't able to name anything, he admitted that abstinence-only education doesn't help any, but he's still voting Republican. Because of abortion. It reminded me of a story that Jesus told:

"What do you think? There was a man who had two sons. He went to the first and said, 'Son, go and work today in the vineyard.'

"'I will not,' he answered, but later he changed his mind and went.

"Then the father went to the other son and said the same thing. He answered, 'I will, sir,' but he did not go.

"Which of the two did what his father wanted?"
"The first," they answered.

The Republican party talks a good talk about abortion, but it doesn't do a damn thing about it, and for good reason. Roe v. Wade is their best fundraising issue, their best get-out-the-vote issue, the only way they keep Christians like my parents voting for war and torture and injustice. Criminalizing abortion would be the worst thing that could ever happen to the GOP. Look at how pathetically grateful evangelical Christians are to McCain for choosing Palin--when all the evidence points to him wanting a pro-choice running mate and having his arm twisted into picking a pro-lifer.

The Democrats, meanwhile, want to keep abortion legal, but they're the party actually doing something concrete to prevent it. Teaching teenagers about condoms and birth control is the only way we're going to lower the abortion rate in this country. Maybe someday evangelicals will wise up to the sucker's game they've been playing, but until then the GOP is going to continue to string them along.
posted by EarBucket at 7:59 PM on September 2, 2008 [21 favorites]

What's with all these people out there who apparently think that Obama's a socialist? Do they think he's lying about his proposed policies or do they think what he's saying and doing is what a socialist says and does? I truly don't get it.

If you replace "socialist" with "black guy", it all makes sense. It's really that simple- listen to the tone when people say this. Their words say socialist, but their eyes say black guy.

Actually, that's not necessarily true -- she may think that women are the equivalent of children -- incapable of making a moral decision without the guidance of a male, and so less culpable.

Bingo! That's the basis of the anti-abortion movement. It's not about life, it's about control. These freaky righties seriously do believe that everyone else needs their guidance, wisdom and punishment. Because if it really was about life and murder, well, what the others said. Prison for women who have abortions and no creepy sick "rape and incest" exemptions.
posted by gjc at 8:03 PM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

A slight break for some comedy?
posted by schyler523 at 8:04 PM on September 2, 2008

My favorite part of Lieberman's speech was the guy who was near an open mic and sounded like Special Ed yelling, "Yaaaay! Yaaaay!" at all the applause moments.

And maybe it's just me, but the homogenized crowd at the RNC sure doesn't look very much like the "average America" I know.
posted by Balonious Assault at 8:05 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

That is a very legitimate question...as far as I can tell any criminal penalties would be directed at abortion providers, not the pregnant women.

The war will last three weeks and the people will throw flowers at our soldier's feet.
posted by telstar at 8:08 PM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

So much for family privacy

"'Levi Johnston, the boyfriend of the pregnant 17-year-old Bristol Palin, plans to join the family at the Republican Party's nomination here of mom and Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin for vice president....

So much for family privacy: Imagine the attention this couple will confront in the media-filled Xcel Energy Center where the hurricane-truncated convention is playing out....

The Palin family already has captured the attention of this hall, after Sarah Palin and husband Todd announced Monday that their daughter planned to have the baby and marry the father. They also asked the media to respect the young couple's privacy.

Good luck with that this week, as the small-town hockey player makes his national TV debut.'^*

The McCain campaign just spent the entire day yelling at everyone to leave these kids alone. Now they're going to put them on stage before millions of Americans. Is John McCain in charge any more? Is anyone?"
posted by ericb at 8:11 PM on September 2, 2008

Oooh oooh oooh I hope Lieberman challenges Andrea Mitchell to a duel
posted by Flunkie at 8:13 PM on September 2, 2008

Okay, this is kind of funny.
posted by empath at 8:16 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Flunkie,
What did Andrea Mitchell do?
posted by lukemeister at 8:23 PM on September 2, 2008

What did Andrea Mitchell do?

Nothing. Just interviewed him.
posted by Flunkie at 8:28 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin Story Fuels 'Mommy Wars' -- "Is Palin the model of a liberated woman who can do it all — including holding the second-most-powerful job in the country? Or will one of her roles — as vice-president or as mother — suffer more than most Americans are willing to tolerate?"
posted by ericb at 8:30 PM on September 2, 2008

Aaaaaand back to Palin.

I'm reading this article from the Washington Post (can't remember if it was posted before) and I'm astonished at how that woman loves to spend. We know she borrowed $22 Mill to build a park and a Sports Complex, as well as some future road projects during her 6 years as mayor-- this is in addition to a 38% increase in tax revenue. It turns out that she also got ANOTHER $27 Million from the feds:

There was $500,000 for a youth shelter, $1.9 million for a transportation hub, $900,000 for sewer repairs, and $15 million for a rail project -- all intended to benefit Palin's town, Wasilla, located about 45 miles north of Anchorage.

Is this usual for a town of 6,700 residents? I'm thinking that instead of hiring a city manager, maybe my town of Garner (pop 20,000) should hire a lobbyist. Going by Sarah Palin standards, I figure we should get about $80,000,000 to spend on our town. Mayor Ronnie is going to be so excited! But he needs to jump on this because McCain might get elected and McCain is "against wasteful federal spending."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:32 PM on September 2, 2008

The mommy wars thing is so manufactured you can see the rivets. I saw the CNN interviews earlier this evening with people getting asked if a mother could hold the job. Which is just as nonsensical and stupid as asking "do you support the troops?"
posted by cashman at 8:38 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Because some convict murderer dude with a Tattoo told him that listening to careful reasoned evidence outlining why a particular candidate is not qualified is for fags.

Hey that tat'd dude is my boyfriend! Layoff! In the California Penal (Penis) System we're now allowed to get married. Yo, whattup, bro?
posted by ericb at 8:38 PM on September 2, 2008

Steve Bell on Sarah Palin.
posted by Rumple at 8:47 PM on September 2, 2008

Former VT governor Madeleine Kunin weighs in on the "commander in chief" aspect of the governor with regards to the National guard:

I was commander-in-chief of the Vermont National Guard...

[snip]

I had zero authority over the troops. I even tested my power during my term of office when I objected to the Vermont National Guard being sent to Honduras for training. I was responding to many of my constituents who objected to the guard being deployed there because they feared it would heighten U.S. participation in the strife in Nicaragua.

I was promptly told, "No way." To make certain that no Governor tried to be "commander-in-chief" of the national guard the Congress passed a law in 1987, called, the Montgomery amendment which states "that a governor cannot withhold consent with regard to active duty outside of the United States." In 2007, governors' powers were whittled down further by the John Warner Defense Administration Act: "the Governor of a state is no longer the sole commander-in-chief of the National Guard during emergencies within the state. The President of the United States will now be able to take control of a state's National Guard units without the governor's consent."

So much for that argument.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 8:48 PM on September 2, 2008 [7 favorites]

I'm thinking that instead of hiring a city manager, maybe my town of Garner (pop 20,000) should hire a lobbyist. Going by Sarah Palin standards...

Yeah, but make sure he/she didn't work with/for Jack Abramoff.

Palin Lobbyist Worked For Jack Abramoff

“It looks like Sarah Palin's claim to represent a cleaner brand of politics could be about to take a bruising.

The Washington Post reports today that, while Mayor of Wasilla, Palin oversaw the hiring of a lobbyist, Steven Silver -- a former chief of staff to now-indicted GOP senator Ted Stevens -- to help win federal earmarks for the city.

But Silver appears to have additional ties that could further undercut Palin's image as a squeaky-clean reformer. According to Senate lobbying disclosure reports examined by TPMmuckraker, from 2002 to 2004 Silver listed as a client Jack Abramoff's lobbying firm, Greenberg Traurig. On Greenberg's behalf, Silver lobbied the federal government on ‘issues relating to Indian/Native American policy,’ ‘exploration for oil and gas’ and ‘legislation relating to gaming issues’ -- the very issues that Abramoff headed up for Greenberg at the time. In other words, Silver appears to have been a part of ‘Team Abramoff.’”

posted by ericb at 8:50 PM on September 2, 2008

Avoiding the media is a bad move. McCain looks like a petty coward who can't face Larry King. And the problem with picking a blank slate like Palin is that people will define her based on what they hear--and so far it's almost all been bad--before she gets to define herself. Waiting until her convention speech might be too late.

McCain/Palin: 10+ houses (she has three)
Obama/Biden: 2 houses

Do they really believe that abortion is murder?

the leaders of the abortion criminalization movement have consistently put their political weight behind policies which make little or no sense if they genuinely think that abortion is identical to child murder. And those same leaders routinely endorse policies that make a lot of sense if their goal is to penalize women who have sex - to, as I’ve heard many of them put it, make sure women "face the consequences" of having sex.

posted by kirkaracha at 8:50 PM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

Palin: has three houses. Yep ... a typical American. "Palin owns three houses, according to her 2007 financial disclosure form. The forms don’t list the value of the properties, but indicate that one is residential and the other two are used for recreation."
posted by ericb at 9:10 PM on September 2, 2008

"Palin owns three houses, according to her 2007 financial disclosure form" -- link.

Also of interest:

"As you might expect from an Alaskan politician, you don’t have to look far for a connection to Big Oil. Her husband, Todd Palin, works as a production operator for BP Alaska in Prudhoe Bay, according to Palin’s 2007 financial disclosure form [PDF] (which we’ve obtained from the Alaska Public Offices Commission and scanned so everyone can see). Mr. Palin is not totally reliant on BP for his income, however. He’s also a champion 'Iron Dog snowmobile racer with sponsorships, and he owns a fishery that sells to PeterPan Seafoods.

posted by ericb at 9:21 PM on September 2, 2008

kirkaracha:

Again, can't say for sure, and I'm pretty tired, but I believe that the Obama's at least have a house in Illinois and a house in D.C. (the one in D.C. has been pointed out to me a few times) and that Biden has the one in Delaware, so that count brings us up to 3.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:22 PM on September 2, 2008

“The founder of the Alaska Independence Party -- a group that has been courted over the years by Sarah Palin, and one her husband was a member of for roughly seven years -- once professed his ‘hatred for the American government’ and cursed the American flag as a ‘damn flag.’

The AIP founder, Joe Vogler, made the comments in 1991, in an interview that's now housed at the Oral History Program in the Rasmuson Library at the University of Alaska, Fairbanks.

‘The fires of hell are frozen glaciers compared to my hatred for the American government,’ Vogler said in the interview, in which he talked extensively about his desire for Alaskan secession, the key goal of the AIP.

‘And I won't be buried under their damn flag,’ Vogler continued in the interview, which also touched on his disappointment with the American judicial system. ‘I'll be buried in Dawson. And when Alaska is an independent nation they can bring my bones home.’”

Dawson -- coincidence?
posted by ericb at 9:24 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

Jewish voters may be wary of Palin.
posted by ericb at 9:28 PM on September 2, 2008

> (the one in D.C. has been pointed out to me a few times)

I can't find mention of that online. He might have an apartment or a *rental* in dc (I mean, why buy a house in DC when you plan to have one provided for you in a few years?).
posted by mrzarquon at 9:29 PM on September 2, 2008

Watching Fred Thompson's speech at RNC is like watching the Passion...no wonder the repubs like torture.
posted by schyler523 at 9:35 PM on September 2, 2008

McCain and Palin are ducking the media now, but a short while ago McCain was whining [self-link] about not getting any media attention.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:40 PM on September 2, 2008

I just realized today that for most people two short meetings and a phone call might be enough interaction to decide if you want to go on a date, but it was enough for John McCain to pick Sarah Palin as his soul/running mate.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:44 PM on September 2, 2008

"In some respects, coverage of Palin has become something like a professional wrestling tag team contest, with one outlet breaking a piece of a story, and another following up and expanding coverage."
posted by ericb at 9:44 PM on September 2, 2008

McCain and Palin are ducking the media now, but a short while ago McCain was whining [self-link] about not getting any media attention.

Is McCain himself really getting any attention? Seems like it's Palin, Palin, Palin. Maybe HE should drop out.
posted by Artw at 9:53 PM on September 2, 2008 [2 favorites]

The Washington Independent has a blogger up in Alaska right now:

I’m reading an article from October 1996, in which a reporter named Laura Mitchell Harris asks Palin about her intentions for a shake up. How would she effectively run a city without experienced leaders? "it's not rocket science," Palin said, “It’s $6 million and 53 employees.”

posted by delmoi at 10:00 PM on September 2, 2008

Campaign money hurts Palin's outsider image

As Palin campaigned unsuccessfully in 2002 to become lieutenant governor, she received contributions from executives at VECO Corp., a powerful Alaska oil field services company. Company founder Bill Allen has admitted the company steers its donations through a "special bonus program" in which executives received money and the company instructed them to donate it to favored politicians.

Allen pleaded guilty to bribery and corruption charges. He admitted the program violated federal tax laws and said it was used to keep his political allies flush with cash.

"If they're working with the oil industry, I'd like to help with their campaigns," Allen testified last year in the corruption trial of a former state lawmaker.

My favorite part:

Defending his choice and the team that helped pick her, McCain said Tuesday that "the vetting process was completely thorough." Campaign advisers at the convention in St. Paul, Minn., said Palin filled out a survey with 70 questions, including: Have you ever paid for sex? Have you been faithful in your marriage? Have you ever used or purchased drugs? Have you ever downloaded pornography?

posted by hydrophonic at 10:01 PM on September 2, 2008

Does anybody remember a commercial years back for an ISP where a young man watches a politician on the news, says, "I just know that guy's lying," does some internet research real fast, sends the dirt he finds to all his friends, and then the politician gets defeated? I used to think that commercial was ridiculous.
posted by hydrophonic at 10:06 PM on September 2, 2008 [6 favorites]

Palin's Earmark Requests: More Per Person Than Any Other State

"GOP vice presidential candidate Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin touts her record as a reformer who worked to end the 'abuses of earmark spending in Congress.' But Palin has embraced earmarks from early on in her career as a mayor of Wasilla to the governor's mansion in Juneau. Just this year she sent to Sen. Ted. Stevens a proposal for 31 earmarks totaling $197 million — more, per person, than other state."

posted by ericb at 10:09 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Aides say Palin interviewed late in the process -- "Alaska governor did not get lengthy interview until last Wednesday."
posted by ericb at 10:11 PM on September 2, 2008

Anyone who supports Palin is a delusional, self-harming, self-contradictory, single-issue America-hater. Everything that could and should make America great — freedom, education, the opportunity for advancing oneself — Palin opposes by virtue of her twisted political-religious craziness.

You have to be a particularly thick dolt to not conclude that Palin is a terrible person. Damn near everything she has done since gaining political office has been done to harm others.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:19 PM on September 2, 2008 [6 favorites]

The National Enquirer is now on the case.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:21 PM on September 2, 2008

Is McCain Palin's Bitch? (SLYT)
posted by MegoSteve at 10:31 PM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

"A wealth of new details regarding Palin's record and personal life - her past association with an Alaska secessionist party, her Troopergate troubles, her record of raising sales taxes, flip-flops on the famous 'Bridge to Nowhere' - surfaced overnight, raising questions from political observers about her suitability and qualifications for the office that is a heartbeat away from the presidency.

Scrutiny about the life of the Alaska governor and former small-town mayor became a nonstop media feeding frenzy as the new reports raised questions regarding whether McCain properly did his homework and used solid judgment in picking a largely unknown and untested candidate.

...Republican National Committee talking points distributed to the Alaska delegation and obtained by The Chronicle instructed the delegates of the 49th to 'STAY POSITIVE' when talking with the press regarding Palin. The talking points also stressed that the Alaska delegates note Palin's role as a maverick and chief executive schooled in an issue of deep concern to Americans - energy - and that she 'knows how to provide energy independence to this country.'

Political pundits said the most intense scrutiny of Palin has only just begun.

'It is already obvious that (McCain) barely knows her,' said University of Virginia political science professor Larry Sabato.

'I sense a few media investigations in the works, as the press and public try to assess Palin's fitness to be a heartbeat away from the presidency in a potential administration headed by a 72-year-old man with a history of dangerous melanoma,' he said."

posted by ericb at 10:36 PM on September 2, 2008

Republican Vice Presidential Nominee Sarah Palin laughs as cancer survivor Senator Lyda Green of the Alaska State Senate is called a "bitch" and a "cancer" on "The Bob and Mark Show", a radio show on KWHL in Alaska.

posted by nickyskye at 10:37 PM on September 2, 2008

So, it wasn't ok to blame Jeremiah Wright on Obama, but it is OK to blame the AIP leader and the bible church paster on Palin? Seems a little hypocritical.
posted by garlic at 10:41 PM on September 2, 2008

"Unbelievable:

'Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin was not subjected to a lengthy in-person background interview with the head of Sen. John McCain's vice presidential vetting team until last Wednesday in Arizona, the day before McCain asked her to be his running mate, and she did not disclose the fact that her 17-year-old daughter was pregnant until that meeting, two knowledgeable McCain officials acknowledged Tuesday... McCain had spoken with all of the others on his shortlist over the course of a selection process that went on for several months, but he was least familiar personally with the person he finally chose.'

How confident does that make you in McCain's executive skills? And one wonders whether the vetters had read this Anchorage Daily News story or this one. Or whether they were aware that she had been at a Jews For Jesus sermon only a week or so previously, on August 17, where the speaker said that anti-Israeli terrorism was 'God's Judgment' for the Jews not converting to Christianity.

If this is how John McCain picks the person who would replace him in an emergency, imagine how stable and rational a decision-maker he'd be in the White House."posted by ericb at 10:44 PM on September 2, 2008

Oh, has this this been mentioned yet?

"Judgment is very real and we see it played out on the pages of the newspapers and on the television. It's very real. When [Brickner's son] was in Jerusalem he was there to witness some of that judgment, some of that conflict, when a Palestinian from East Jerusalem took a bulldozer and went plowing through a score of cars, killing numbers of people. Judgment — you can't miss it."

Palin was in church that day, Kroon said, though he cautioned against attributing Brickner’s views to her.

posted by delmoi at 10:57 PM on September 2, 2008

So, it wasn't ok to blame Jeremiah Wright on Obama, but it is OK to blame the AIP leader and the bible church paster on Palin? Seems a little hypocritical.

No, just turnabout. Building glass houses and such...
posted by troybob at 10:59 PM on September 2, 2008

The National Enquirer is on the case.

Can we go to bed now?
posted by Surfurrus at 11:00 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Man, it almost seems like Palin is Bizarro World Obama. I won't be surprised if she peels off the mask and underneath is Karl Rove wearing blackface and a goatee.
posted by nasreddin at 11:01 PM on September 2, 2008 [4 favorites]

Can you all imagine the holy raging shitstorm, the howls of righteous conservative fury, that would have erupted if it had been revealed that Obama had, as late as 2002, belonged to a group advocating some form of secession from the United States?

I am shocked at how quietly this revelation has been received by the press.

I think it has to do with the fact that Palin looks conservative and middle American, so the media is not able to process the radicalism of her past.

If Obama had been revealed to belong to some sort of secessionist group, it would have played into some pre-written scripts about him being a radical, not loving America, having a funny name, being Muslim, etc.

The election would be over if something were revealed like this about Obama.

The media needs to wake up. It needs to treat Palin's backwoods radicalism a lot more seriously than it has been so far.

And the point needs to be hammered home in TV ads to the Joe and Suzy Sixpacks: "Just a few years ago, this woman advocated breaking up the 50 American States. And Now John McCain has picked her to be YOUR Vice President."
posted by jayder at 11:02 PM on September 2, 2008 [7 favorites]

So, it wasn't ok to blame Jeremiah Wright on Obama, but it is OK to blame the AIP leader and the bible church paster on Palin? Seems a little hypocritical.

So it was okay to blame Jeremiah Wright on Obama, but it's not OK to blame the AIP leader and the bible church pastor on Palin? Seems a little hypocritical.
posted by Jimbob at 11:02 PM on September 2, 2008 [5 favorites]

I change my mind. Palin is fully qualified to be Vice President.

I now proposed Barney Fife as McCains Secretary of Defense. Aunt Bee will act as Secretary of State. To avoid silliness Floyd, of course, will remain as White House barber.

More will be revealed from Press Secretary Goober.
posted by tkchrist at 11:10 PM on September 2, 2008 [3 favorites]

I am shocked at how quietly this revelation has been received by the press.

Well, it looks like there are going to be tons of such revelations; the press might as well pace themselves, with election two months away; and with so many stories coming from so many places, a few solid, thoroughly researched '60 Minutes'-type pieces maybe a month down the line are going to drive it home.

Also, the Republicans are doing all they can to put Palin into a victim role, and it doesn't hurt to back off and let the case build itself, rather than trying to force or rush it. Personally, I think the Republicans are probably way pissed that The Daily Show was rather subdued on the subject (given all they could have done), as they were probably planning a big coordinated whine about it tomorrow; the show probably made a good call there.

So, you know, patience.
posted by troybob at 11:12 PM on September 2, 2008

or, i kind of relate it to when i buy like a bunch of new albums at once, something is going to get ignored, because there's too much stuff to give it all the right attention; Palin has apparently stumbled all over Alaska like a drunk elephant, so the case against her is probably best served by slowing down and savoring every morsel
posted by troybob at 11:19 PM on September 2, 2008

I am shocked at how quietly this revelation has been received by the press.

Likely because:

A) It's not that big of a deal in State crawling to the brim with kooks and political fringe groups.

B) It may not be true that she was an actual member of API.

You guys gotta understand the level of cognitive dissonance your dealing with here. These far right nut bags who have been manipulated by the Power Brokers of the Republican Party think everything wrong with the US is becuase of liberal fags. They honestly believe nothing their polices have done have contributed to a single problem. Somehow, invisibly and like ninjas, the fags keep sabotaging their fabulous ideas. Therefore seceding from the Union is a logical course of action, a plan B, since obviously the Liberal Fags grip on America cannot be shaken. No matter how hard they try things still seem to get worse and worse. They really believe they are a martyred minority with a ghettoized media whose ideas just never get a fair shake. So if they want to start a civil war... it's god work. If YOU do? It's just more of your godless shenanigans.
posted by tkchrist at 11:29 PM on September 2, 2008 [7 favorites]

So, you know, patience.

Hitting the public with all this Palin dirt at once will cause the RNC to ask Palin to step down now, which would be bad, because that would allow McCain time to recover from the quick addition of a new candidate. Especially before the convention really gets rolling.

What you want to do is slowly build a case against Palin and, by extension, McCain, up to a week or so before the election, culminating in information about the troopergate scandal being released publicly right before the election itself.

Allowing the RNC to get rid of Palin right now would be a bad idea for America. We want the RNC to have to want to be rid of that evangelical fascist hypocrite at a point when it's too late for them to do so.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:42 PM on September 2, 2008 [1 favorite]

Lindsay Lohan responds.

surely a good note to end this thread on....
posted by Rumple at 11:49 PM on September 2, 2008

darn all you rabid adoptionists! Darn you all to heck!
posted by mwhybark at 11:53 PM on September 2, 2008

Hitting the public with all this Palin dirt at once will cause the RNC to ask Palin to step down now, which would be bad, because that would allow McCain time to recover from the quick addition of a new candidate.

I'm not sure dumping her would help him 'recover'. Not only would it seriously anger the base at this point, but he would also look ridiculous. Of course he looks ridiculous now, so who knows. But McCain doesn't seem like the kind of guy who likes to back down.

By the way here is the source image for that photoshop going of Sarah holding a gun in an American Flag bikini.
posted by delmoi at 12:00 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

I truly believe the survival of the USA is at stake. Other countries are doing more things more right: better education, better fiscal management, better social support structures, better investment in developing new businesses.

I think it is incumbent on all sensible Americans to slap McCain/Palin supporters upside the head. If you let the likes of konolia have her way, you become a second-class bankrupt nation of pig-ignorant young earth creationists with piss-poor jobs.

What a stupid thing to do to yourselves.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:07 AM on September 3, 2008 [11 favorites]

surely a good note to end this thread on....

It's not over until Violet Blue reads the whole thread into her webcam and puts it on YouTube.
posted by homunculus at 12:08 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

I think it is incumbent on all sensible Americans to slap McCain/Palin supporters upside the head.

Yeah, I'm finding it incredibly creepy the extent of self-delusion these people will go through in order to defend the indefensible. Anyone caught repeating the phrase "executive experience" at this point should have their mouths filled with shit.
posted by troybob at 12:14 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Lieberman all-but-admits Palin isn't qualified to be president:

Andrea Mitchell: Do you feel Sarah Palin is qualified to be commander-in-chief if God forbid, something should happen to John McCain?

Joe Lieberman: Well...you know...let's assume the best (chuckles uncomfortably). John's in great shape, he's gonna be the president and let's assume that nothing bad will happen...why should we? But if it does...yes, she'll be ready.

Here's video.
posted by gerryblog at 1:40 AM on September 3, 2008

The state with the lowest divorce rate is - of course - Massachusetts. It might be too soon to tell, but same-sex marriages so far seem to have very low divorce rates.

And they definitely have very low abortion rates!
posted by rokusan at 2:41 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

God says your wrong. -- tkchrist

Yeah, that's always bothered me, too. What's with all that "thou" and "thine" bullcrap?
posted by rokusan at 2:44 AM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

Late to the thread so I had to skim somewhat. I just wanted to make the point that Palin's executive experience should probably be compared to that of an 18 month mayor of a large city. San Francisco for example has almost the same size budget and slightly larger population than Alaska.

Arkansas on the other hand (re: Bill Clinton) now has a ~$4 billion budget and about 5 times the population of Alaska.

Of course, the oil revenues being the majority of the state's revenue skews things quite a bit for Alaska. The weird thing about the Alaskan economy is that every new job created will result in a ~$1200 revenue shortfall.
posted by BrotherCaine at 2:48 AM on September 3, 2008

I've spent the last several days reading about this, and the last two days reading this thread. What strikes me is the worried comments that I, as a woman who liked Hillary for President, would suddenly flip-flop my vote because she didn't get the nomination because of a media grandstanding move by John McCain. Sarah Palin's views, especially in regards to censorship of library books, is the direct opposite of what I'd want in our Federal government. I, like many others, question her fiscal responsibility and wonder at her imperial act of dismissing the entire state board of Agriculture and Conservation over the Matanuska Dairy issue.

I'm not an Obama fanatic: I have questions for him, too, and if he gets elected, I'll be watching to see if he carries out his promises. Lots of things are said during campaigns that fall by the wayside when people get into office.

But at least I'll be allowed to ask those questions in an Obama presidency. In Sarah Palin's world, I won't.

I was considering not even voting in this election. After the last two, and the scandal surrounding the voting mechanisms, I was feeling quite discouraged about the voting process. I felt it was an exercise in futility.

But thank you John McCain, because I am going to vote now. I am going to vote for Obama and encourage all of my friends and neighbors to do the same. Take your bizarre VP candidate and slink off into Maverick world because the GOP has had its chance, and it has failed miserably.
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 3:28 AM on September 3, 2008 [21 favorites]

So, it wasn't ok to blame Jeremiah Wright on Obama, but it is OK to blame the AIP leader and the bible church paster on Palin? Seems a little hypocritical.
posted by garlic

That. Is. Rich.

No it was not OK. But it's a little late to realize it.

Live by the smear, and die by it. Heck, McCain already has gotten a pass for Hagee and Parsley. One would almost think that it's only *black* preachers who scare America with crazy talk.

Me, I'd have all the preachers -- all denominations -- mocked and ridiculed in the town square, and then sent home to manage the newly *taxed* houses of ~~profit~~ worship.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:33 AM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

There was a Spitting Image special on the life of Reagan back when I was in high school -- Spitting Image, for the Americans in the room and those under 25, was a popular British television show that used ghastly caricature puppets to satirize world leaders. Basically a 25-minute political cartoon, once a week, and it got re-aired here in Canada on the CBC, our national public broadcaster, despite the fact that 90% of it was about British insider politics.

Anyway: following Reagan's last term, Spitting Image put together a show from most of their Reagan material from his time as President, and I gather a lot of fresh material as well, and -- as a lad of 15 or 16 trying to wrap my head around world affairs -- I was astounded by something in the middle of the show.

They were trying to explain what the Iran-Contra affair was all about, and Reagan and North and the Right and money being funneled to guerillas in Central America and Reagan didn't know and it was not a mistake and it may have been a mistake and mistakes were made and serious mistakes were made...

...and then there's a flurry of static and the puppets disappear and a genteel British man, well-coiffed and perfectly composed, calmly says:

"It is here we reach the point where conventional satire breaks down."

For some reason, reading this thread, I have a crystal-clear recollection of watching this on my parents 13-inch colour TV, a bit fuzzy because of the bent arial on the back, with commercial breaks for Danger Bay and The Beachcombers. My dog sleeping on the rug next to the director's chairs dad got at a yard sale and fixed up with new canvas sling-seats that didn't quite fit right.

We're almost 20 years from the point where conventional satire broke down, and I don't think there's any turning back. All we can do is just keep upping the ante.
posted by Shepherd at 3:44 AM on September 3, 2008 [16 favorites]

Spitting Image, for the Americans in the room and those under 25, was a popular British television show that used ghastly caricature puppets to satirize world leaders.

For the record, Spitting Image was broadcast in America, briefly. Probably more Americans are familiar with these caricature puppets thanks to Phil Collins, though.

Oh, by the by:

The gambling community agrees: McCain is likely to drop Palin.

Also,

Obama Hits 50% in Gallup Poll.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 3:54 AM on September 3, 2008

Reason Mag: "A: So the Mat-Su Valley, you know, Matanuska-Susitna Valley, otherwise known as Upper Wingnuttia, is full of right-wing libertarian militia fundamendalist Christian gun-toting, pot-growing dope-heads.

Q: Awesome."
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 4:25 AM on September 3, 2008

Marie Mon Dieu, I vote these days not because I think it does any good (after 2000 and 2004, I'm no longer sure my vote is is even tabulated, and with the electoral college, it is gonna get tossed anyway), but because I refuse to make it easy on the bastards if they are stealing elections.

Palin is a radical right wing Christian fascist. Nice to see the Repubs finally admitting what they've become - radicals.
posted by QIbHom at 4:25 AM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

This morning I was thinking about the potential flap over Palin's minister, and much as I hate to say it, I just don't see it becoming anywhere near as big a deal as Wright. Why?

Because the stuff she's heard preached Sunday in and Sunday out isn't markedly different from what's preached in a majority of American churches each week -- e.g. America is God's favored nation, God has His hand on this country and has clearly chosen it to lead the world, God is watching over our troops, etc., etc., and if you believe that, then saying stuff like Jesus is operating in war mode or whatever is just the logical end of that thought. The evangelical movement is big on the war motif (cf Ephesians 6:10-18, the passage about "Armor of God" being one of the most preached-on passages of the NT; the popularity of the Left Behind series, just to name a couple of examples), so this stuff is not, like, controversial to the Christian base or anything.

So that, combined with the fact that these sermons are not being given by a Scary Scary Black Man means, in my opinion, that this story's not going to get the traction that we saw from Wright earlier this year.
posted by shiu mai baby at 4:37 AM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

Oh man, Konolia, thanks for hanging in there in the face of abuse (disagree, almost everything, yada yada, disclaimer on my progressivism). I don't get why some MeFi's can't understand why abortion is a single issue litmus test among those who believe life begins at conception, and overwhelmingly outweighs war the death penalty and civil rights in the moral calculus of 'pro-lifers'. Every year in the US there are more abortions in the US than total deaths during the entire Iraq war. From 1973 through 2005, more than 45 million legal abortions occurred. Someone who believes every one of those fetus terminations is equivalent to murder will make supporting the party that at least pays lip service to the issue their number one priority. Thinking it could be otherwise is a fool's game.

I believe almost all MeFites would agree with me when I say that I'll never support the candidacy of a holocaust denier or someone who thinks that Stalin's purges are historical fiction. While it is amazing to me that one difference in assumptions about the beginning of life can be the cause of so great a moral rift in our country, it is undeniably the case. If you don't understand why pro-life issues would energize the Republican base even after an administration of failure, incompetence and cowardice, you don't get people.

That said, contraception education and HPV are a great thing, and if Konolia disagrees with that, she "drank the cool aid".
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:37 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

*HPV vaccines*
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:38 AM on September 3, 2008

The only way to guarantee you don't get pregnant is to not have sex.

The only way to guarantee you don't get pregnant is to remove your ovaries, and/or womb. And if your relatives are molesting you, you'd better figure out a way to do it before you hit puberty.
posted by BrotherCaine at 4:46 AM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

Point of interest: as I was writing that last comment, I did a quick Google image search on "pastor kalnins" just to get a look at the man. The first hit was this page from the official Alaska state page, which used to show a picture of Palin "receiving a blessing from Pastor Kalnins," but which is now returning a 404.

As of right now, the original image is still on the server, though. Also worth pointing out that the photo was called "One Lord Sunday," and was from June 07, 2008.

If they're actually scrubbing references to Kalnins in anticipation of a controversy, they're certainly doing a piss-poor job of it.
posted by shiu mai baby at 4:46 AM on September 3, 2008

From links posted by ericb
Anchorage Daily News 03/06/08:

Palin said she's not aiming to take any time off from her job as governor, assuming all goes well with the pregnancy. She said when she had Piper -- Palin was mayor of Wasilla at the time -- the baby was born on a Monday and she returned to the office on Tuesday.

"I've always been a believer that God's not going to give us anything that we cannot handle," Palin said.

What does this say about women who don't go back to work the day after giving birth?

Anchorage Daily News 04/22/08:

In a letter she e-mailed to relatives and close friends Friday after giving birth, Palin wrote, "Many people will express sympathy, but you don't want or need that, because Trig will be a joy. You will have to trust me on this." She wrote it in the voice of and signed it as "Trig's Creator, Your Heavenly Father."

Sarah is so tuned into God's thoughts, she can actually take dictation from him.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:10 AM on September 3, 2008

Eh, the e-mail to the relatives thing isn't that big of a deal. I mean, if you are a true Christian believing in the living word of God and all that those beliefs entail, you believe that every child is a perfect gift from the Lord himself.

Honestly, the woman just gave birth to a child with Down's Syndrome, so in my mind she's entitled to draw strength from wherever and however she needs to. Regardless of what I think of her public policies (abhorrent) or her ability to be a veep (laughable), I have intense respect for her for bucking right off the bat the inevitable expressions sympathy that would come from someone hearing you have a baby born with a serious birth defect. Good for her.
posted by shiu mai baby at 5:19 AM on September 3, 2008

OH MY GOD! THERE'S A PICTURE OF PALIN WITH HER PASTOR! CALL CNN!
posted by garlic at 5:25 AM on September 3, 2008

Thanks for the hyperventilation, garlic. My point wasn't OMG SHES AN XTIAN LOLZ, it was that the evidence was pointing to the official Alaska government site being scrubbed to remove images of Palin and her pastor. I wouldn't give a rat's ass if they had left it up there, because I happen to believe that every person, be they public figure or no, is completely within their right to worship whomever and however they feel, without question from us.

I just found it interesting that, rather than have the spine and the integrity to leave the pictures where they were, come what may, it would appear that someone in that campaign is worried enough to have them removed from a government site.

The conclusions, if any, are yours to draw.

Not related: folks, we are right around 200 comments away from overtaking the VioletBlue thread. Post, ye dogs, post!
posted by shiu mai baby at 5:31 AM on September 3, 2008

Having followed this by now thread-of-epic-proportions from the beginning (and maniacally refreshing and trying to catch up b/w work and everything else ever since) I am now seriously wondering if I indeed have fallen down the rabbit hole.

This is totally unreal.

There's been a posting about the revelations of Sue Williams, there's been numerous references in this thread to blogs and newspaper articles quoting people with local knowledge.

Have I missed something or is there really no actual certified mefi ^tm who can provide some local, inside, on-the-ground, real-time perspective?
posted by ponystyle at 5:32 AM on September 3, 2008

Speaking of geography, Alaskan territory is also along the trajectory of ballistic missiles launched eastward out of Stalinist North Korea. For that reason, among others, Alaska's Fort Greely was selected as the site for the principal U.S. ground-based defense against such missiles.

As that state's governor, Sarah Palin would know more by osmosis – if nothing else – about the necessity for U.S. anti-missile systems than either Messrs. Obama or Biden.

Do these people not hear themselves? Do they not know how stupid they sound?
posted by EarBucket at 5:35 AM on September 3, 2008

I can't believe that I am still reading this thread. Rabbit hole, indeed.
posted by the littlest brussels sprout at 5:37 AM on September 3, 2008

From 1973 through 2005, more than 45 million legal abortions occurred. Someone who believes every one of those fetus terminations is equivalent to murder will make supporting the party that at least pays lip service to the issue their number one priority.

Someone who believes every one of those fetus terminations is equivalent to murder would advocate charging the murderers with murder.

They don't.
posted by Flunkie at 5:46 AM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

Eh, the e-mail to the relatives thing isn't that big of a deal. I mean, if you are a true Christian believing in the living word of God and all that those beliefs entail, you believe that every child is a perfect gift from the Lord himself.

An email where you tell your family you feel that God has blessed you is one thing. An email where you bless yourself and sign God's name is another. In many Judeo-Christian homes that would amount to sacrilege. Can you imagine a Quaker doing that?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:48 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Eight Reasons Why Sarah Palin is More Qualified than Barack Obama

posted by caddis at 5:51 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Yup, yup.
posted by cashman at 5:57 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

An email where you tell your family you feel that God has blessed you is one thing. An email where you bless yourself and sign God's name is another. In many Judeo-Christian homes that would amount to sacrilege. Can you imagine a Quaker doing that?

Oh for pete's sake. You honestly believe that she thought she was actually signing God's name to that e-mail? Really?

I mean, first of all, neither you nor I were there when she wrote that e-mail so this is all just useless speculation in the end. Secondly, God probably didn't author that glurge-y Footprints thing that's been shellacked on a billion pieces of wood, but I've yet to meet a Christian who thought that the author was actually committing sacrilege.

A little perspective would serve you well, Gravy.
posted by shiu mai baby at 6:09 AM on September 3, 2008

Eight Reasons Why Sarah Palin is More Qualified than Barack Obama

Don't forget that her experience with the Alaska National Guard also equips her to deal with threats from marauding Siberians planning an invasion over the Bering land bridge and the Global War on Polar Bears.
posted by jonp72 at 6:26 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

"Let's assume nothing will happen."

-Joe Lieberman, on Sarah Palin's qualifications to take over for John McCain

That's a good one, but my favorite so far was from some (Republican) member of the Alaska state legislature (from memory, probably not an exact quote, but at least close):

"She's old enough. She's a citizen of the United States."

No, I'm not kidding.
posted by Flunkie at 6:27 AM on September 3, 2008

Here's what gets me: When Palin was chosen by McCain none of us knew anything about her. That goes for the media and the McCain supporters as well. But "the base" became instantly energized by the pick. Why? Because they were told that she's a God-fearing, anti-abortionist, social conservative with more executive experience than Barack Hussein Obama. End of inquiry. The rest of "thinking America" wasn't content to swallow that without questioning it and finding out for themselves what her real story was. So the vetting began, and under nearly every stone something was uncovered something that seemed, on first glance, to contradict the party line or at least call it into question. Is it all bad? Of course not. Are there nutters on the left taking things too far? Yes, just like there are nutters on the right spreading filth and lies about Obama -- it's not ideal, but it's unavoidable. But The Base is offended by the act of trying to discover the truth about this woman. Their personal vetting was over when they received their talking points, and everything else is just damned Lib'ruls trying to tear down the virtuous, like they always do. So they tune out the dissonance and rally to protect this poor, persecuted woman. I should be used to it now, but it still amazes me that so many people are so willing to accept blind-faith partisanship as a reasonable substitute for using their own brains and reaching their own conclusions.
posted by Balonious Assault at 6:28 AM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

If you don't understand why pro-life issues would energize the Republican base even after an administration of failure, incompetence and cowardice, you don't get people. BrotherCaine

I don't get people. That is, while I fully understand what you have articulated so well, I simply don't understand why these 'one issue' people believe that abortion will *disappear* if it is made illegal. Don't they know the history of abortion - legal and illegal? Abortion will never disappear; the best we can hope for is that unwanted pregnancies become rare.

Perhaps - as like with the emotive surge of support for Palin's 'courage' and 'integrity' in outing her daughter - these people are enjoying the drama of the tragedy too much. Perhaps they don't really want an end to their glorious holy campaign ...

onward christian soldiers ...
posted by Surfurrus at 6:28 AM on September 3, 2008

Tip: That new Google Chrome browser loads and renders this page much more easily than IE or FF. Yay!

I kept missing bombshells in the 'recent activity' view. Now, thanks to Chrome, I am privy to every allegation of dumbassery as it happens! Whee!
posted by dirtdirt at 6:31 AM on September 3, 2008

(I'm serious though, it loads this page effortlessly where the others choked)
posted by dirtdirt at 6:32 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Out of all the astonishing disclosures about Palin, I think the dull-sounding "Dairygate" will end up being one of the most important because it reveals so much about her style of governing.

1.State-run dairy, Matanuska Maid, hemorrhages money so Dairy Board votes to shut it down.
2. Paliin doesn't like this decision so she fires entire state Board of Agriculture which appoints Dairy Board.
3. Dairy continues to hemorrhage money even after prices are raised, so Palin now decides herself to shut it down.
4. Palin now auctions off dairy-- but not for parts--as a "going concern." This means supporting the dairy with state dollars so it is still runniing.
5. Nobody bids on it, Dairy continues to hemorrhage money.
6. Palin finally decides to sell off equipment.
7. Local farmer leases 71 pieces of equipment from the Dairy Board for half the value. He starts his own dairy with Federal grant of $643,000
8. As of July 31, 2008 the new Matanuska Creamery has produced 30,000 pounds of inedible cheddar.

So the Governor doesn't listen to experts. Instead, she throws tons of money into the problem causing the problem to grow. I can see that working well for her in The White House.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:38 AM on September 3, 2008 [20 favorites]

I grew up in the 1980s, and was sent to a Jewish private school until 9th grade. Like every other American student of the '80s, I was victimized by well-meaning and earnest adults wanting to warn me about whatever it was the Reagan administration was spreading FUD about that week, so I have clear memories of the cult scare.

A guest speaker showed up at school one day to tell us all about evil, evil cults that want to brainwash kids, and how to recognize and avoid them. We were warned in graphic detail about the scariest, most threatening cult of all…

Jews For Jesus.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:40 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Thanks, Gravy. Indeed that is relevant and interesting. Is there a link that better chronicles this story, Gravy?
posted by cashman at 6:45 AM on September 3, 2008

A little perspective would serve you well, Gravy.
posted by shiu mai baby at 9:09 AM on September 3 [+] [!]

A little perspective? Shit, I could say the same to you. This is not some sweet little old neighbor lady we are talking about-- this woman wants to run this country. She wants to travel the world representing America, meeting with foreign Head-of-States. She wants to preside over the Senate and cast her tie-breaking vote on legislation affecting all of us. She wants to write policy-- foreign and domestic. She could have a huge influence over our lives (cf. Dick Cheney.)

If this was an email from my fundie sister-in-law I would roll my eyes and delete it but since it is from the GOP's VP candidate, I'm a bit more concerned. I don't want a woman who fires anyone who doesn't agree with her because she is soooo sure she knows exactly what God wants-- so sure she can even sign His name to her emails (even if it is "just for laffs.") Is this the worst thing I have heard about Palin? Obviously not, but it doesn't endear her to me.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:03 AM on September 3, 2008

McCain officials acknowledge that Palin was not given a background interview until the day before the announcement she was picked for VP.
posted by waraw at 7:09 AM on September 3, 2008

McCain/Gunderson '08
posted by kirkaracha at 7:10 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Now, thanks to Chrome, I am privy to every allegation of dumbassery as it happens!

For those still running Firefox, I'm sure someone on MeFi can whip up a dumbass/asshat Greasemonkey script.
posted by lukemeister at 7:21 AM on September 3, 2008

So, as a Minnesotan who loathes our Governor, I get an awesome, awesome fringe benefit from this. The word in several local media outlets was that Tim Pawlenty was really upset when he found out he wasn't McCain's pick; he must be gnawing at his own guts now that he sees who he was passed over for.
posted by COBRA! at 7:25 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

You guys aren't paying attention. Watch the GOP convention. None of your facts matter, they're selling a mythology, a story and frankly stories will almost always trump reality.

The Democrats have their work cut out for them and Obama at 50% isn't going to cut it. I'm not saying the Republicans are definitely going to win, but I do think ya'll are seriously underestimating the Republican party and it's chances. Obama and the rest of the party are going to have to hit and hit hard and repeatedly.

Also note: Obama will be on the O'Reilly Factor this Thursday.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:33 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Marie Mon Dieu for the goal . . . she shoots . . . she SCOOOOOOOOOOOORES!

That comment made my day! And ruined Karl Rove's.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:46 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

You guys aren't paying attention. Watch the GOP convention. None of your facts matter, they're selling a mythology, a story and frankly stories will almost always trump reality.

Repeated for truth. I agree with Brandon Blatcher! I have not kept up with this thread, but I was listening to NPR coverage of the convention on my way home last night and one reporter noted that he had talked to many, many delegates and not a single one of them had anything negative to say about Palin. Rather, many of them were inspired by her ability to balance her family with her job and her reputation for taking on the establishment, which fit right into the niche that McCain wants to promote about himself (and use to disassociate himself from Bush).

This is the same reason why people elected George Bush even though he had some clearly dumb ideas; he was folksy and seemed relatable to people, and stood for "family values." Even if there were reports that his kids engaged in underaged drinking, folks didn't care because he was facing the same sorts of problems they were and seemed to have the same values.

Just because she has made some dumb decisions does not mean that folks who see themselves in her are going to turn away from her. She is inspiring the evangelicals to come out and vote for McCain when they might otherwise have sat on their hands and stayed home! I will be very, very happy if all the predictions of McCain's doom in this thread prove to be correct, but after 8 years of the American people showing me that they don't necessarily vote with their brains but with their guts, I wish so many democrats weren't taking their victory lap so soon.
posted by onlyconnect at 7:50 AM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

I don't want a woman who fires anyone who doesn't agree with her because she is soooo sure she knows exactly what God wants-- so sure she can even sign His name to her emails (even if it is "just for laffs.")

Dude, nowhere did I say it was "just for laffs;" quite the contrary.

Look, I get what you're saying here, I really do, and the last thing I want is for this country to continue its march towards a theocracy. But my plea for perspective is based on this: you're getting freaked out about one e-mail Palin tossed off to close friends and relatives in the immediate wake of the birth of her baby who has Down's Syndrome, FFS. Christ, I can never imagine what that must be like for a new mom in her situation, to experience such extreme joy that's quite probably tempered by a huge dose of heartache*, and I can appreciate, at least objectively, the desire to fight off any sympathy right off the bat by imagining what she believe God's perspective on the matter would be.

It's a private e-mail, about an intensely private moment. It's not a security briefing, she's not saying GOD SEZ TO SHOOT DA MOOSES, AND ALSO FIRE THE HEATHEN LIBERRYIAN. Huge, huge difference there.

* I'm not trying to provoke a fight with the Holland folks here; merely saying that I'm betting any parent of a DS probably experiences a not-insignificant bit of pain early on, knowing their kid is going to face a huge number of difficulties that a neuro-typical kid probably won't.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:52 AM on September 3, 2008

I don't get why some MeFi's can't understand why abortion is a single issue litmus test among those who believe life begins at conception, and overwhelmingly outweighs war the death penalty and civil rights in the moral calculus of 'pro-lifers'.

Oh, I can understand how dipshits delude themselves into thinking they can accomplish something by banning abortion. Although I don't understand how they delude themselves into thinking it won't turn out every bit as badly as it did before abortion was legalized. Nor do I understand why they don't give education, instead of policing, a shot; that seems to be how other countries reduce their abortion rates to a fraction of the US's.

But what really boggles my mind is that these single-issue voters are willing to destroy the country to accomplish their goals. The US is in a deep financial crisis, an intractable war, and is rapidly falling behind in the education and innovation race. While a McCain presidency might result in a ban on abortion, it certainly will deliver a death blow to the economy, education, and social support services.

The single-issue voter: We had to destroy the country to save it.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:54 AM on September 3, 2008 [7 favorites]

Don't forget that her experience with the Alaska National Guard also equips her to deal with threats from marauding Siberians planning an invasion over the Bering land bridge and the Global War on Polar Bears.

God, don't laugh. I actually read a comment on another site that said she's qualified to be commander in chief because she's in charge of so much US/Canadian border, and that's where the Muslim terrorists slip through. I kid you not.

Hey COBRA! -- Sarah Sinking So Fast That RNC Co-Chair Just Called Her ‘Sarah Pawlenty’! (I lost count of the times Pawlenty used the words "independent" and "maverick" on last Sunday's Meet the Press).
posted by bitter-girl.com at 7:56 AM on September 3, 2008

Should they hit hard, or should they try to make their story better? And how sickening is it to realize that truly facts don't matter. Reality doesn't matter. What kind of times are these we live in, where we know and accept this, and feel pretty powerless to do anything that will substantively change things?

Or is it time to make a stand? Not for any particular party, but for using, you know, actual facts, relevant events, logic and common sense in making decisions.

When I watched that Campbell Brown/Tucker Bounds clip where McCain's spokesperson just refuses to admit the plain reality of the situation, that is just infuriating to me. But perhaps I just woke up to the reality that this has always gone on, and the previous presidents' spokespersons did the exact same thing and I fell for it back then.
posted by cashman at 7:57 AM on September 3, 2008

As a guy with a Downs Syndrome uncle, I'd like to say that it's not the tragedy that y'all seem to think it is. It's a helluva lot better than many other defects.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:01 AM on September 3, 2008

I haven't seen anyone representing Down's Syndrome as a tragedy.
posted by agregoli at 8:09 AM on September 3, 2008

Right, she's trying to be VP. So I realize digging through her personal stuff might be interesting, but not all of it has something to do with her campaign. As people were saying up above, it be nice to make the campaign about the big things, not the small stuff. This is small stuff. What her associates opinions are is small stuff. How she has governed is bigger, but only in respect to trying to judge McCain's decision to pick her as a running mate.

Garlic, I love you. You were the reason the tomato and basil I had for dinner last night was so delicious. And while I agree with the gist of what you said, I want to point out that thanks to the gambling maverick's decision to put Palin on the ticket, we're still in the discovery phase of the Palin nomination. In discovery you turn over all the rocks. It's only when that is done that you decide what is relevant and how to proceed with the information you've uncovered. In normal circumstances that happens behind the scenes, but because McCain surprised everybody by choosing to roll the dice, it's playing out in public. I, for one, find it fascinating, and I'm willing to deal with the occasional unseemliness of it and sift through the mountain of shit to find the occasional diamond. As someone said upthread, what's coming out here is just what's on the surface. I have no doubt that the Obama staff is doing their own discovery and will be able to make an informed decision about what the "big things" are, particularly in regard to how she has governed and what McCain's decision to go with a possibly ill-informed gut feeling to choose his running mate really means for the future of the country if he is elected.
posted by Balonious Assault at 8:11 AM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

As a guy with a Downs Syndrome uncle, I'd like to say that it's not the tragedy that y'all seem to think it is. It's a helluva lot better than many other defects.

I don't even see people with Down Syndrome as having a "defect."

Now, politicians on the other hand...
posted by milarepa at 8:13 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

I will be very, very happy if all the predictions of McCain's doom in this thread prove to be correct, but after 8 years of the American people showing me that they don't necessarily vote with their brains but with their guts, I wish so many democrats weren't taking their victory lap so soon.

Amen, onlyconnect. As much reason as there is to be optimistic this time around, when I was listening the robots on the floor at the RNC being interviewed, I shuddered and remembered 2004 like it was yesterday.

Republican, Democrat, embittered Hillary supporter, Christian Evangelical, whatever your leaning, you have to be a complete blithering moron to vote for McCain in 2008.

Don't we already have enough data on what type of President this guy will very likely be? A rigid, stubborn, incurious guy from an elite background pretending to be a regular guy, a resort to military intervention first then pursue diplomacy later, pandering hypocrite? In the name of all things sacred, why wouldn't you vote for almost ANYONE before this guy?
posted by psmealey at 8:15 AM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

Is it my own internal prejudices or is the RNC just really, really flat compared with the DNC? And a bit shoddy looking to boot.
posted by Artw at 8:17 AM on September 3, 2008

GOOD LUCK PALIN DEATH RACE
posted by EarBucket at 8:18 AM on September 3, 2008

ericb writes "Palin: has three houses. Yep ... a typical American. 'Palin owns three houses, according to her 2007 financial disclosure form. The forms don’t list the value of the properties, but indicate that one is residential and the other two are used for recreation.'"

A couple rec properties in sparsely settled places like Alaska could easily cost less than a cheap new car. I think we need some more details here.
posted by Mitheral at 8:19 AM on September 3, 2008

As a guy with a Downs Syndrome uncle, I'd like to say that it's not the tragedy that y'all seem to think it is.

I'm not saying it is a tragedy. See my previous comment about the Holland thing.
posted by shiu mai baby at 8:21 AM on September 3, 2008

Right, she's trying to be VP. So I realize digging through her personal stuff might be interesting, but not all of it has something to do with her campaign. As people were saying up above, it be nice to make the campaign about the big things, not the small stuff. This is small stuff. What her associates opinions are is small stuff. How she has governed is bigger, but only in respect to trying to judge McCain's decision to pick her as a running mate.

How she'll govern if something happens to McCain isn't relevant to the election? (other then a reflection on McCain)? Her Opinions are small stuff

I was listening to NPR coverage of the convention on my way home last night and one reporter noted that he had talked to many, many delegates and not a single one of them had anything negative to say about Palin.

You mean people at the republican convention had nice things to say about their candidate? That's not really all that surprising.
posted by delmoi at 8:23 AM on September 3, 2008

EarBucket's link above points to an alleged list of the books Palin tried to have banned.

"How to Eat Fried Worms" needs banning?
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 8:24 AM on September 3, 2008

Much as I complained about CNNs narrative of “Will crazy Hillary come out of a cake and stab Obama?” , at least it gave some sense of drama to proceedings... the RNC, nothing. Not even the crazy Palin stuff peps tyhings up as it's all offscreen.
posted by Artw at 8:25 AM on September 3, 2008

Via Atrios:

According to MSNBC, the Palin kids were told their Ohio trip was to celebrate an anniversary.

Anyone seen anymore on this? It's seems like some pretty unequivocally blurry "focus on the family".
posted by butterstick at 8:27 AM on September 3, 2008

EarBucket's link above points to an alleged list of the books Palin tried to have banned.

That's on my website, amusingly enough. Someone emailed me to point out that the list "includes at least two books (the third and fourth Harry Potters) published after the Wasilla incident is said to have occurred." so I'm looking at it pretty skeptically at this point.
posted by jessamyn at 8:29 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

jadepearl, I think the only applicable word is "nuts". As in, in the strictest sense it's probably possible, but someone would have to be well and truly nuts to even go there. Utterly batshit insane. It doesn't scan.
posted by cortex at 8:32 AM on September 3, 2008

psmealey's got it. I was a Hillary supporter. A hardcore, house-divided against my boyfriend (we cancelled each other's primary votes out) Hillary supporter. Someone who once got into a fistfight with her best friend's brother over the Carter/Reagan election -- in kindergarten. As recently as the DNC, I was sulkily snarking at the screen any time the Obamaniacs came on. I was itching for a floorfight. PUMAtastical.

What changed?

Sweet flibbety jeebus, the Palin nomination is what converted me. I figured the Obama camp would do fine without my help, thankyouverymuch. I'll vote for him (or threaten to go McKinney to irritate my boy), but you can't make me like it! That McCain would bring on some relatively innocuous dude like Romney who at least had the economic experience we need right now.

But now, I've finally found what's worse than the mainstream media attacks on Hillary and that is this message: ALL VAGINAS ARE INTERCHANGEABLE.

The talking heads screaming YAY! like that dude during the RNC speech last night over the fact that Palin's a woman and LOOK AT US WE ARE SO PROGRESSIVE (umm, our party nom'd a woman like, what? 24 years ago?). That riled me up enough to throw my support to the Obama camp. It reminded me of the job recruiter spam I get any time I allow my full resume back onto Monster -- I call them "Series 7 and a a vagina" calls. See, once you've worked in the financial industry and have the credentials, you are going to get bothered by recruiters the rest of your life trying to make their chick recruitment quota. When I worked at Smith Barney, I was one of 3 women in an office of 55 brokers. Yay, me -- but getting those quota calls to this day is singularly annoying and somewhat offensive, because I KNOW why they're calling me.

Just because Palin's a woman doesn't make her representative of me or any other women outside her particular demographic. Crikey, McCain could've picked either of the Maine senators (both women) and I'd have had a hard time NOT voting for them, since as Republicans go, they're pretty awesome. But Palin? Ugh.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 8:33 AM on September 3, 2008 [22 favorites]

I think skepticism is warranted. I was even going to italicize 'alleged' but figured it was obvious enough.

Jessamyn, do people really want Webster's banned?
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 8:34 AM on September 3, 2008

I'm the person who said that Down's Syndrome was a defect, but that was in the Metatalk thread, not this one. So it is a derail here.

I'm also not numerous enough to qualify as a "y'all".
posted by QIbHom at 8:38 AM on September 3, 2008

These Premises Are Alarmed writes "EarBucket's link above points to an alleged list of the books Palin tried to have banned."

"Webster’s Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary by the Merriam-Webster Editorial Staff"? Is this book in some way more than a dictionary?
posted by Mitheral at 8:40 AM on September 3, 2008

Yeah, that's a very generic list of banned books with the two HP books clearly published after 1999. Looks like it was pulled from a website somewhere.

Yeah, Jessamyn, it matches this list, which is a generic "books that have been banned at one time or another."
posted by dw at 8:41 AM on September 3, 2008

Time Magazine: Mayor Palin: A Rough Record.
posted by ericb at 8:42 AM on September 3, 2008

do people really want Webster's banned?

Sure, why the hell not. It's a book, ain't it?
posted by Flunkie at 8:43 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Juno From Juneau: A Video Report From The RNC Floor On Palin's Problem.
posted by ericb at 8:46 AM on September 3, 2008

Do any of the medical folks have any input on the questions arising with her fifth child and her risky behavior? As on the line of trying to cause a miscarriage? Scurrilous? Yes. Possible? You tell me.

Drop it. Please. It is impossible, by definition, to have a "miscarriage" at eight months. This is straight-up crazy talk. Waiting eight months and then taking a plane flight after your water breaks has to be just about the most publicly visible, stupidest, least effective method of "abortion" conceivable.

Just let it go.
posted by designbot at 8:46 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Lysistrata? The stupid shit that threatens stupid people never ceases to amaze me, even when I keep in mind that they're stupid.
posted by middleclasstool at 8:49 AM on September 3, 2008

Drop it. Please. It is impossible, by definition, to have a "miscarriage" at eight months. This is straight-up crazy talk. Waiting eight months and then taking a plane flight after your water breaks has to be just about the most publicly visible, stupidest, least effective method of "abortion" conceivable.

Just let it go.

It *IS* bloody weird in it's own right though.
posted by Artw at 8:50 AM on September 3, 2008

From TPM:

Yesterday, Palin took the unusual step of having her lawyer, Thomas van Flein, file an ethics complaint against her with the state's Attorney General. This, she hopes, will lead the AG to give the investigation to the aforementioned state personnel board. Unless that happens, and Branchflower agrees to close down his investigation, she will refuse to testify.

Weird.
posted by cortex at 8:51 AM on September 3, 2008

Video: Key ‘Troopergate’ figure speaks out.
posted by ericb at 8:56 AM on September 3, 2008

not that it much matters in the Ann Coulter/Michael Moore din here, but for those still being rational, interesting this latest from pollster Rasmussen:

After a long weekend of Democratic criticism of John McCain's choice of Sarah Palin as his running mate, over half of voters (52 percent) still have at least a somewhat favorable opinion of the Alaska governor. Thirty-one percent (31 percent) view her very favorably. Voters are evenly divided on whether Palin was the right choice for McCain and whether her selection makes them more or less likely to vote for the Republican candidate. But 69 percent of GOP voters believe the choice was a good one, while nearly as many Democrats (63 percent) disagree.
Unaffiliated voters are evenly divided as well. While the initial polling reaction to Palin has been fairly positive, the most significant numbers will be those following the Republican National Convention. Because she is so new to the national scene, Palin's speech may be the most important moment at that event. Prior to McCain's announcement, 67 percent said that they didn't know enough about Palin to have an opinion.

posted by dawson at 8:58 AM on September 3, 2008

If the Republicans had held a lottery and put into it the names of every single Republican female holding office of any kind, I firmly believe that they would have pulled out of the hat the name of a less devisive, more qualified running-mate for John McCain.
posted by leftcoastbob at 9:00 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

in the strictest sense it's probably possible
No, it is not. We discussed this before. At 36 weeks, the baby is done. Ready. There are things that can go wrong with labor, sure, but if a baby dies during labor, you do NOT call it a miscarriage, you call it a stillbirth. This is not just a linguistic issue, it really matters for women who go through this and it seems very dismissive to talk about the death of a baby as a "miscarriage". This also means that the reverse is true: "deliberately trying to cause a miscarriage" sounds much less severe than "trying to kill her baby" but that IS what jadepearl is accusing her of.

All that said, I still really would like to hear an explanation about the labor story because it just does not make sense at all.

(on preview: yeah, what designbot said)
posted by davar at 9:02 AM on September 3, 2008

This, she hopes, will lead the AG to give the investigation to the aforementioned state personnel board.

Not so weird, considering the Personnel Board is appointed by the governor (a detail many stories on this leave out). The whole idea is that Palin is trying to delay a report on it that is due out just before the election. The legislature has already said that she is attempting to use her busy upcoming campaign schedule as an excuse not to testify.
posted by troybob at 9:08 AM on September 3, 2008

Real Story on Schmidt's War

“Either McCain's vetting process was a complete sham. Or his press operation is the worst in modern presidential politics history. Or some unholy blend of both.

Campbell Brown isn't the story - people are underestimating her, as they always have. No, the story is that Tucker Bounds went on national television without material to answer what is maybe the simplest, most straightforward follow-up question any reporter can ask: ‘What's your evidence for that assertion?’ And I suspect that the reason they canceled Larry King is not to punish CNN (it doesn't work that way) it's that they still couldn't come up with an answer to the question by the time his show aired.

Now look at this comment from McCain honcho Steve Schmidt to Katie Couric last night: ‘Members of this campaign went to off-the-record lunches with reporters today, and they were asked if she would do paternity tests to prove paternity for her last child. Smear after smear after smear, and it's disgraceful and it's wrong. And the American people are going to reject it overwhelmingly when they see her.’

First of all, that's the first time I've heard anyone in the campaign/political press throw out the notion of paternity tests. So Schmidt is to blame for bringing that issue into the mainstream. If anyone is smearing the candidate, it's Schmidt. This is as cynical a tactic as I've ever seen in politics.

Secondly, how can it be a ‘smear’ if it was during an off the record lunch with McCain campaign aides?

Thirdly, hey, colleagues, you're on notice: Steve Schmidt does not respect ‘off the record.’ Watch your backs, my friends.”

posted by ericb at 9:08 AM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

davar, I'm actually right there with you. I should have disclaimed myself away from the terminology, but I was in too much of a hurry to jump to the "nuts" point.

In the strictest sense, it's not even merely probably but certainly possible for a woman to deliberately harm an unborn child inside of her to the point where it won't live. At that late date, doing so would be an utterly gruesome affair, and I don't know how it'd be accomplished other than through some indefensible, unmisinterpretable physical assault that pretty much takes "she was trying to 'accidentally' ~~miscarry~~ murder her soon-to-be-born child" off the table. It's pure horror story material, something out of the worst of severe mental illness casefiles. It makes absolutely no sense in context.

So yes. It's very much Let It Go territory.
posted by cortex at 9:12 AM on September 3, 2008

Dawson, even knowing that polls are not to be trusted, I can't help but feel an icy hand on my heart reading that. Now all Palin has to do is not stammer or stutter in her speech at the convention, and the press will fall all over themselves to talk about how brave and wonderful she is.

I didn't want to believe it, but it appears some of the more pessimistic folks in this thread may have it right: the Palin pick might ultimately be a huge plus for McCain, despite all logic suggesting otherwise.
posted by lord_wolf at 9:17 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Did anyone catch the clip of John McCain saying Palin was his "soulmate"? What a bizarre thing to say about someone you've just met.

Is McCain delusional? Or just weird?
posted by cell divide at 9:19 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Oh, here's a soulmate clip-- I think he's said it more than once!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rk8u8dBgDxI
posted by cell divide at 9:20 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Now that Schmidt when on the record, that frees the press to tell us what happened. But I bet it never happened.
posted by birdherder at 9:22 AM on September 3, 2008

To Davar and everyone else. I am not accusing her of trying to kill her baby I want to understand the underpinnings of what is becoming broken-water gate (postings elsewhere by "maybe" medical people raise disturbing questions). I am happy to leave this alone because the ramifications are hideous. It either tells me things are gonna get REAL ugly are some things are too ugly to contemplate. Since mefi has verifiable medical people to provide perspective I raise the issue here.
posted by jadepearl at 9:26 AM on September 3, 2008

If Hillary Clinton is going to contribute to this debate, today would be a very good day to do it. People are going to start yelling "sexism" and yell it loudly. Of course there has been some, but that in no way takes away from the fact that this woman is nuts.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:29 AM on September 3, 2008

Is McCain delusional? Or just weird?

What with him playing with his wedding ring during her speech, and his penchant for trading in spouses for younger women, as vile a thought as it is, I'm going to go with 'horny".
posted by quin at 9:34 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

After a long weekend of Democratic criticism of John McCain's choice of Sarah Palin as his running mate, over half of voters (52 percent) still have at least a somewhat favorable opinion of the Alaska governor

The vast majority of the public is still low information. They haven't seen all the information, haven't the time to study the details and the damning evidence of her record, and know nothing about most of the things that make her bizarro-pick.

In the crush of news about Gustav, both conventions, the start of football season in college and in the pros, and the like, most people likely know few facts about her.
posted by cashman at 9:34 AM on September 3, 2008

jadepearl, I share your curiosity about it, but after thinking about it for several days (wow -- it's already been several days?!), I agree with the community consensus: we shouldn't discuss that here.

I'll continue to discuss it with my wife and other mothers in my circle of friends/family (all of whom feel that everything surrounding that birth fails its above suspicion roll badly -- a 7 when it needs a 16.) And I think the truth about it will eventually come out. But it's a matter that we needn't dwell on too much here on the Blue.
posted by lord_wolf at 9:36 AM on September 3, 2008

Just a little still-annoyed-at-the-whole-thing derail here. I propose we start calling Palin "Mrs. Palin" in the same way that the media kept calling Clinton "Mrs." Clinton instead of Senator Clinton. Why should this nonentity get the respect that an actually-qualified woman didn't get?
posted by nax at 9:37 AM on September 3, 2008

cortex:
davar, I'm actually right there with you. I should have disclaimed myself away from the terminology, but I was in too much of a hurry to jump to the "nuts" point.
Thank you cortex.
jadepearl: I want to understand the underpinnings of what is becoming broken-water gate
Me too! I asked about that before too, because I just do not believe that what the media reported about the events is what actually happened, but then, I would have expected a simple rebuttal by now.

I think this discussion is relevant, just not the insinuations.
posted by davar at 9:39 AM on September 3, 2008

most people likely know few facts ~~about her.~~

I made repairs to that post for the benefit of you and the community.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 9:40 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

McCain campaign derides 'faux media scandal' ahead of key Palin speech

“John McCain's campaign Wednesday angrily called for an end to questions about its review of Sarah Palin's background, deriding a ‘faux media scandal designed to destroy the first female Republican nominee’ for vice-president.

‘This nonsense is over,’ declared senior campaign adviser Steve Schmidt in a written statement.

The statement stood out for its admission that Palin is under siege - it condemns ‘this vetting controversy’ - and for its attempt to blunt questions about how rigorously McCain and his campaign explored the background of a candidate who may get the country's second most powerful job. It also suggested that Palin is a victim of gender bias in the media.

‘The McCain campaign will have no further comment about our long and thorough process,’ Schmidt said, lashing out at ‘the old boys' network’ that he says runs media organizations.

Top McCain advisers said they welcome and expect a review of Palin's mayoral and gubernatorial record but that the media has crossed that line with its inquiries.

‘Certainly, her record deserves scrutiny, but I think we ought to look at her record,’ campaign manager Rick Davis told reporters on a conference call. He condemned ‘the salacious nature’ of some news stories designed to ‘throw dirt at our candidate.’ He also lamented a ‘frenzied’ mentality on Palin and urged the media to ‘dial it back.’”

posted by ericb at 9:41 AM on September 3, 2008

Just a little still-annoyed-at-the-whole-thing derail here. I propose we start calling Palin "Mrs. Palin" in the same way that the media kept calling Clinton "Mrs." Clinton instead of Senator Clinton.

Well, the NYT in particular requires that everyone be titled Mr. or Mrs. after the first mention. They also call Obama and McCain Mr. Obama and Mr. McCain, even in places you would ordinarily only use the last name.
posted by delmoi at 9:41 AM on September 3, 2008

Obama’s positions are nuanced, flexible, considered, intellectual, and rely on historical context. Republicans' positions are visceral, dogmatic, and simplistic and rely on slogans. Which ones do you think are going to appeal to the sound-bite-ocracy?
posted by nax at 9:44 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Via Atrios:

Perhaps I'm focusing on an irrelevant issue, but the presence, or non-presence, of Johnston on the stage tonight strikes me as important. It's one thing for delegates to be understanding and compassionate about the fix these two teenagers have gotten themselves into. It's another to actually celebrate it. And, given what we've learned in the last few days, if Johnston is up on stage with his girlfriend and the Palin family, and Republicans are wildly cheering, it will certainly look like they are celebrating this situation.

I don't usually engage in these scenarios, but I'll do it here. If the Obamas had a 17 year-old daughter who was unmarried and pregnant by a tough-talking black kid, my guess is if that they all appeared onstage at a Democratic convention and the delegates were cheering wildly, a number of conservatives might be discussing the issue of dysfunctional black families.

Hmm...
posted by delmoi at 9:51 AM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

Well, the NYT in particular requires that everyone be titled Mr. or Mrs. after the first mention.

Why is that?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:54 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Women shun Republicans thanks to Palin

“Most US women are unimpressed by Republican John McCain's choice of Alaska Governor Sarah Palin as his running mate, and have thrown their weight behind the Democratic ticket in the race for the White House, a national poll showed today.

Six in 10 women voters see Senator McCain's choice of a female running mate as a calculated political decision rather than one based on Governor Palin's experience and qualities, the poll conducted by the Garin-Hart-Yang Research Group showed.

‘Women voters see the choice of Governor Palin as being driven by politics rather than by any sense of conviction on Senator McCain's part that she has the experience and qualities to make a good vice president,’ the research group said.

A majority of the 800 women polled - 56 per cent - said they were put off by Governor Palin's legislative record and her position on moral issues, such as abortion.

‘When women voters learn that Palin opposes abortion even in cases of rape and incest, opposes stem cell research and, as governor, opposed funding for state pre-kindergarten programs... a majority say... (they) feel less favourable toward her,’ the poll showed.

…Fifty-two per cent of women voters polled said they would vote for the all-male Democratic ticket of Senator Obama and Joe Biden, while just 41 per cent said they would back Senator McCain and Governor Palin in the November election.”

posted by ericb at 9:55 AM on September 3, 2008

Well, the NYT in particular requires that everyone be titled Mr. or Mrs. after the first mention.

Why is that?

It's just the publication's internal style guide. Mostly tradition at this point, but it does lend the "paper of record" a certain sense of gravitas, and makes a clear distinction between it and other NYC papers, some of which have been known for their tawdry, tabloid-ish standards.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 9:58 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

In other words...

*don yarmulke and beard, throws hands in air*

TRADITION!
posted by cortex at 10:05 AM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

cashman writes "The vast majority of the public is still low information. They haven't seen all the information, haven't the time to study the details and the damning evidence of her record, and know nothing about most of the things that make her bizarro-pick."

More importantly haven't had much chance to discuss this at work and circulate the stories, she was just completely off the radar before I'd imagine.

nax writes "I propose we start calling Palin 'Mrs. Palin' in the same way that the media kept calling Clinton 'Mrs.' Clinton instead of Senator Clinton. Why should this nonentity get the respect that an actually-qualified woman didn't get?"

So you're saying the best way to correct a percieved wrong is another perceived wrong?
posted by Mitheral at 10:07 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

What Obama should say about Palin

"Barack needs to jump in and define this as McCain is reckless, rash and risky. The press will define this in terms of Palin, and some percentage of people will feel for her and like her. But if Barack were to step up and say it's reckless to choose a VP - no matter how compelling - after one meeting and a fifteen minute phone call, I don't think anyone could disagree.

Barack needs to go out in public and say, 'Each of us have made our first presidential decision. I chose someone who, God forbid, could be a strong and successful president from day one. I based that decision on thousands of hours I have spent with Joe Biden in the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, on the Senate floor, on international trips and traveling the country debating him in the primaries. John McCain has made his choice - and he based it on one meeting two years ago and a fifteen minute phone call. That's the kind of rash, reckless and risky decision-making that has typified the last eight years under George W. Bush. If that's how little thought John McCain gives to picking a running mate, how much thought will he give to other decisions of life and death? We cannot afford four more years of impetuous, impulsive, shoot-from-the-hip presidential decisions; it's time for a change.'"

posted by ericb at 10:07 AM on September 3, 2008 [10 favorites]

Can I just say that this:

‘The McCain campaign will have no further comment about our long and thorough process,’ Schmidt said, lashing out at ‘the old boys' network’ that he says runs media organizations.

Makes me want to barf, laugh, and cry all at once. I'm a mess, y'all.
posted by shiu mai baby at 10:09 AM on September 3, 2008

"This nonsense is over"

You know, it's not.
posted by Artw at 10:10 AM on September 3, 2008

Sure, it's NYT style, but I think the nitpicky point is that often Clinton (among other women in public life) gets the "Mrs." treatment far more than men in public life get the "Mr." And some people perceive that -- or the snark favorite, drawing out "Ms." until it sounds like "Mizzzzzzz" -- as a Taser-prod meant to point out her gender rather than just house style.

Outside the NYT, practically no one calls Obama "Mr. Obama" but just "Obama." Clinton got "Hillary-d" more than she got "Clinton-d." Not quite as bad as "We have been in many places with many faces and many hairdos with Hillary," and other Matthews quips, but still irritating.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 10:12 AM on September 3, 2008

I propose we start calling Palin "Mrs. Palin" in the same way that the media kept calling Clinton "Mrs." Clinton instead of Senator Clinton.

Oh boy, an excuse to be sexist! Can't pass up that opportunity, can you?
posted by ryanrs at 10:13 AM on September 3, 2008

I will be very, very happy if all the predictions of McCain's doom in this thread prove to be correct, but after 8 years of the American people showing me that they don't necessarily vote with their brains but with their guts, I wish so many democrats weren't taking their victory lap so soon.

Were people voting with their brains or their guts when the Democrats took Congress back in 2006? The president is hugely unpopular, and Obama's on an upswing. I don't think anyone is taking an Obama victory as a foregone conclusion, but there's certainly plenty of reason to think the tide is turning in America, and I don't see anything necessarily wrong with believing in victory. There's a wide area between starry-eyed naivety and the Democratic defeatism that sullied the first four years or so of this century.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:16 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

if Johnston is up on stage with his girlfriend and the Palin family, and Republicans are wildly cheering, it will certainly look like they are celebrating this situation.
I think they are simply acknowledging him as part of the family.
I never understood why spouses and children of candidates accompany them so often on official occasions, but if you accept that as a given, I do not think it is unusual to have the son in law (I think you can call it that even if they are engaged and not yet married) and father of the grandchild-to-be. I can imagine that it is supportive for Bristol as well, to have him there.
posted by davar at 10:17 AM on September 3, 2008

Cool Papa Bell: It's just the publication's internal style guide. Mostly tradition at this point, but it does lend the "paper of record" a certain sense of gravitas, and makes a clear distinction between it and other NYC papers, some of which have been known for their tawdry, tabloid-ish standards.

There was a bit about this in, of all places, Answer Bitch. When you juxtapose their coverage of celebrities (Mr. Pitt, Ms. Cyrus) with that of tabloids (Brad! Miley!), the air of class it imparts becomes clearer.
posted by mkultra at 10:17 AM on September 3, 2008

None of your facts matter, they're selling a mythology, a story and frankly stories will almost always trump reality.

as if "son of kenyan goat farmer grows up poor in america, becomes a lawyer and a senator and then becomes the first black president of the u s" doesn't represent a mythology and a story in itself

i do believe we've got them beat on the story, this time
posted by pyramid termite at 10:19 AM on September 3, 2008

After taking over as Mayor of the small town of Wasilla, Palin fired the longtime local police chief. The former police chief, Irl Stambaugh says he was fired because he stepped on the toes of Palin's campaign contributors, including bar owners and the National Rifle Association.
posted by EarBucket at 10:23 AM on September 3, 2008

Good lord, people. "Mr." and "Mrs." are not signs of disrespect. Get off it.

As for why the NYT insists upon it after first use, one thing is that a consistently enforced policy is a guard against bias, whether intentional or unintentional, whether real or perceived.
posted by Flunkie at 10:23 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Outside the NYT, practically no one calls Obama "Mr. Obama" but just "Obama." Clinton got "Hillary-d" more than she got "Clinton-d."

Do you think the fact that she put that name on her campaign signs, website, etc and that her own advisers called her by that name all the time might have had something to do with it?

(not to derail, but Clinton never complained about people calling her Hillary and she herself used her first name more often then her last)
posted by delmoi at 10:27 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Good lord, people. "Mr." and "Mrs." are not signs of disrespect. Get off it.

They are signs of attaching unnecessary importance to gender.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 10:27 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

They are signs of attaching unnecessary importance to gender.

And, for women and not for men, married status.
posted by jessamyn at 10:30 AM on September 3, 2008 [7 favorites]

Oh come on. That may be so, but first of all, the complaints in this context are not limited to when women are addressed this way. I remember people going crazy during the Clinton impeachment because the NYT (among other places) "disrespected" him by referring to him as "Mr. Clinton" rather than "President Clinton".

Second of all, I'm confident that the NYT, just like basically everywhere else, has a policy of addressing the person with the honorific of their choice, and I'm pretty confident that I remember reading that Hillary Clinton has explicitly chosen "Mrs.".
posted by Flunkie at 10:36 AM on September 3, 2008

And for Clintons, an indication of which one it is.
posted by Artw at 10:38 AM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

I wish to go with Herr Doktor Wyatt.
posted by Artw at 10:39 AM on September 3, 2008

And conspicuous use of that default gender-and-marriage-status honorific in the place of other more specific choices (Senator, Gov., Dr., Professor, etc) has its own set of nasty implications, depending on the context. That goes for the Mr.s and the Mrs.s/Ms.s/Misses both, but it has I think an extra frisson of nasty in the case of career women when placed in the context of good old fashioned barefoot-in-the-kitchen notions of what exactly women should be doing with their lives.
posted by cortex at 10:41 AM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

This is repulsive:

Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, the Republican vice-presidential nominee who revealed Monday that her 17-year-old daughter is pregnant, earlier this year used her line-item veto to slash funding for a state program benefiting teen mothers in need of a place to live.

If you're going to oppose abortion, even in cases of rape and incest, and oppose sex-ed programs that promote contraception, then for God's sake, the least--the absolute least--you can do is support programs that make it easier for unmarried teenage girls to keep their babies.
posted by EarBucket at 10:42 AM on September 3, 2008 [10 favorites]

If you're going to oppose abortion, even in cases of rape and incest, and oppose sex-ed programs that promote contraception, then for God's sake, the least--the absolute least--you can do is support programs that make it easier for unmarried teenage girls to keep their babies.

Sure, if you're sane. But if you're sane, you wouldn't subscribe to the preconditions that you list.

Their conclusion is not "let's help those unmarried teenage mothers who keep their babies", it's "unmarried teenage mothers who keep their babies shouldn't exist in the first place".

The fact that they do and will exist is simply not relevant (to them).
posted by Flunkie at 10:48 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

AskMe: Why is "Mrs. Clinton" so common in newspapers & other media that use Ms. universally for other women?
posted by ericb at 10:48 AM on September 3, 2008

And conspicuous use of that default gender-and-marriage-status honorific in the place of other more specific choices (Senator, Gov., Dr., Professor, etc) has its own set of nasty implications

Cortex for the win! It also makes the "which Clinton is it?" distinction clearer. Is it "Senator" or "former President..."? Easy enough if you say Senator instead of Mrs. To be fair, yes, they did use "Hillary" on her campaign signs, etc, but we're not talking about those, we're talking about the way people in the media refer to someone when they're talking about them. I've heard a whole lot of "Governor Palin"s in the last few days, not as many "Mrs."s...
posted by bitter-girl.com at 10:49 AM on September 3, 2008

The New York Times Manual of Style and Usage.
posted by ericb at 10:50 AM on September 3, 2008

They are signs of attaching unnecessary importance to gender.

And to be clear, I don't just mean in their use or overuse by the NYT or other media, I mean simply the fact that these things exist. As far as I can get away with it, which is certainly at least the entire internet, I shall endeavor to no longer use them.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 10:53 AM on September 3, 2008

Ah, I give up. This was a good AskMe link. Thanks, ericb. Also love pointing out the "Democrat party" thing, something James Carville Raging-Cajunly-reminded Michele Bachmann of the other day when she kept saying it.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 10:55 AM on September 3, 2008

Levi cleans up well.

I think this tells you everything you need to know about how the McCain camp is going to play the pregnancy thing.

(And I think it will probably work.)
posted by neroli at 10:58 AM on September 3, 2008

I don't think anyone is taking an Obama victory as a foregone conclusion, but there's certainly plenty of reason to think the tide is turning in America, and I don't see anything necessarily wrong with believing in victory. There's a wide area between starry-eyed naivety and the Democratic defeatism that sullied the first four years or so of this century.

Actually there has been plenty of anticipatingly victorious chest-thumping going on in this thread. (What I've cited below isn't anywhere near exhaustive; it's just too hard to search this mammoth thread for more examples.)

"Folks, this election is not even going to be close. Mark my words."

"Barring any kind of major revelation about Obama in the next three months, he [McCain] will surely lose, the only question left is by how much, and his running mate will be tainted forever."

McCain is taking on water faster than he can bail today. The way I see it, they *have* to ditch her and take the consequences, which will be a few hundred thousand "Christian" conservatives throwing a hissy fit. Otherwise, it's a guaranteed loser with a few million independents.

I'm saying that the problem with this attitude is that it's like an echo chamber in here. Most of the people on this site seem to be Democrats or at least liberal leaning, and for the most part we don't understand how our country could have chosen Bush over Gore in 2000 or Bush over Kerry in 2004. If you went back to the political threads from those years, I bet we would find the exact same sort of hubris I've cited above: "Bush is so stupid. The democratic candidate has so much more substance. We can't trust him." And yet, we elected him, twice in a row. I do not think it is "democratic defeatism" to say hey, wait a minute guys, let's try to understand the other side of this instead of perpetuating our little circle jerk here, to make sure we don't push the people's buttons and send them off to vote for McCain/Palin. Just like it is not unpatriotic to criticize our military policies, it is not defeatist to be realistic.
posted by onlyconnect at 11:00 AM on September 3, 2008 [7 favorites]

Levi cleans up well.

Is McCain grabbing Bristol's belly in that picture?
posted by Bookhouse at 11:03 AM on September 3, 2008

He stayed with the young couple a little longer than he did with anyone else, and his body language, as the cameras rolled, seemed to indicate that he was offering them his congratulations.

Well, for god's sake, let's get a gestural analyst in here to be sure about that.
posted by cortex at 11:04 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

MSNBC's Rachel Maddow on Sarah Palin:

“Nobody can quite believe that John McCain picked her...I think the question right now is whether or not the choice is going to be withdrawn....before it gets very complicated with the rules of the RNC...And I think that that’s actually what people are thinking about, rather than what will Sarah Palin mean for the country. I don’t get the sense that anybody is totally committed to the idea that she is going to be vice president, or even the vice presidential nominee...This has been greeted with such shock — and with every salacious detail about stuff that wasn’t vetted coming to the floor seemingly with each hour of the news cycle — it is becoming less likely by the hour that Palin will still be John McCain’s nominee even by the end of the week." [video]

posted by ericb at 11:12 AM on September 3, 2008

and for the most part we don't understand how our country could have chosen Bush over Gore in 2000 or Bush over Kerry in 2004.

Who says that? Gore ran a pretty bad campaign and bush ran as a moderate in 2000. If he had run on the platform he actually governed from, he would have probably lost. In 2004 the Iraq war had just gotten started, and Kerry wasn't man enough to run against it. Watching the Kerry campaign was incredibly disheartening. I remember thinking to myself "You people don't need to like the guy, you just need to vote for him."

And it isn't like Kerry got creamed, if he'd just a few points better in Ohio, he would have won. These were very close elections, the 2000 election was literally a tossup (or close enough to steal)

And anyway, while we don't have polling yet after the Palin pick, we have some focus group reports (courtesy of Frank Luntz) showing that undecided voters hate Palin. She'll fire up the base, but not to the enthusiasm levels of the Obama campaign.
posted by delmoi at 11:13 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

“Nobody can quite believe that John McCain picked her...I think the question right now is whether or not the choice is going to be withdrawn....before it gets very complicated with the rules of the RNC...And I think that that’s actually what people are thinking about, rather than what will Sarah Palin mean for the country.

I think Maddow is being a little optimistic. Rather then withdraw, McCain has opted for a surge of Palins. With Levi and Bristol's unborn child, the family size has gone from 6 to 8 in just a matter of days. They're already cutting attack ads featuring her.

I think it's likely she'll stick around.
posted by delmoi at 11:18 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Uh, yeah. Bush also cheated in those elections. Both of them. I wouldn't pin it entirely on the American people choosing him.
posted by agregoli at 11:20 AM on September 3, 2008

Geez, I compliment your post and you call me out for "hubris". Poor form indeed. I posted what I did up top to try buck up the troops and to stem the creeping defeatism I saw, as well as dispel the belief that the GOP has some magic pull over the populace so they can, if not win, then keep the election close enough to steal. Even if they did, I believe this power is in rapid decline.

let's try to understand the other side of this instead of perpetuating our little circle jerk here, to make sure we don't push the people's buttons and send them off to vote for McCain/Palin.

The "other side of this" is comprised of people that don't pay any attention to politics or public policy yet somehow manage to drag themselves to the polls every four years and vote based on bullshit hypotheticals like who would be a better dinner companion. Do they deserve our empathy or consideration? You can argue that, but I don't think many "undecideds" are hanging out posting on Metafilter (at least not in political threads) these days.
posted by psmealey at 11:22 AM on September 3, 2008

I think it's likely she'll stick around.

What's more, within a week the media will get bored of attacking her and she'll be laughing all the way to the White House.
posted by nasreddin at 11:22 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

If the Obamas had a 17 year-old daughter who was unmarried and pregnant by a tough-talking black kid, my guess is if that they all appeared onstage at a Democratic convention and the delegates were cheering wildly, a number of conservatives might be discussing the issue of dysfunctional black families.

Well, duh.

Most US women are unimpressed by Republican John McCain's choice of Alaska Governor Sarah Palin as his running mate, and have thrown their weight behind the Democratic ticket in the race for the White House, a national poll showed today.

Well, DUH. If anything, they just encouraged many women to not only vote, but actively work to get Obama elected.

Barack needs to jump in and define this as McCain is reckless, rash and risky. The press will define this in terms of Palin, and some percentage of people will feel for her and like her. But if Barack were to step up and say it's reckless to choose a VP - no matter how compelling - after one meeting and a fifteen minute phone call, I don't think anyone could disagree.

You're caught up in your own echo chamber. There's millions of people who not only would disagree but are disagreeing. A whole bunch of them are in Minnesota at the moment. To them Sarah Palin is an extraordinary and shining example of their values.

as if "son of kenyan goat farmer grows up poor in america, becomes a lawyer and a senator and then becomes the first black president of the u s" doesn't represent a mythology and a story in itself

It doesn't represent their story though 'cause they're not black and not they're not too keen on the idea of a black president. Palin may have her faults (who doesn't), but quite frankly "at least she's one of us". Obama is black and has a funny name. That will matter to some people, whether they realize it or not. If Obama was Barry Olson and white, but otherwise exactly the same, this election would be over.

For beter or worse, Obama has to keep his nose twice as clean in order to rise about the "baggage" of being the black in a majority white country.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:23 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Sure, if you're sane. But if you're sane, you wouldn't subscribe to the preconditions that you list.
I don't think that is true. In the Netherlands, the ChristianUnion (the party of many evangelical christians that is one of the three parties in our current government) does support and proposes those programs. As a former christian, this makes much more sense to me. The US has much more evangelical christians than the Netherlands, and I am always surprised to see how uncompassionate they seem in politics.
posted by davar at 11:24 AM on September 3, 2008

The NY Times is using the title "Ms. Palin."
posted by yeti at 11:25 AM on September 3, 2008

McCain previously criticized Wasilla earmarks.

D'oh!
posted by milarepa at 11:25 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin is being referred to as "Ms. Palin" in the NYT, at least as of today.
posted by Perplexity at 11:25 AM on September 3, 2008

I agree with you, onlyconnect, re:

Most of the people on this site seem to be Democrats or at least liberal leaning, and for the most part we don't understand how our country could have chosen Bush over Gore in 2000 or Bush over Kerry in 2004.

but I'm not terribly sure how we can attempt to understand the reasoning of the other side other than what we do when we (in good faith) engage in dialogue with konolia and the other conservatives here. Their reasoning just doesn't make sense to us, because while one on one, as people, they're fine -- like so many other commenters above, I applaud konolia for sticking to her guns, and for walking the walk.

However, the talking heads and the national leadership of the Republican do neither of these things. They're hypercritical, and mean. Slashing funding to programs that support unwed mothers and teens in crisis? Wow! Makes perfect sense! Firing a ton of military translators who speak Arabic because they're gay? Gee, that's reasonable, too! Trading in your wife every few years for a newer, richer beauty queen model, dumping your wife with cancer in her hospital bed, or getting pregnant before marriage? Ok if you're a Republican, A SIGN OF DEMONIC POSSESSION AND EVIL AND BAD MORAL JUDGMENT if you're a Dem.

The difference between them and us is that we are willing to allow them to lead their lives in the ways they choose, and respect the choices made by them (for them) -- but we're not prepared to let them dictate how the rest of us can or should live. I have tried and tried and tried to understand where they get off trying to dictate to us, when we don't do the same thing to them. To pull out the hot button topic of abortion -- and reduce it to a bumper sticker -- "Don't like abortion? Don't have one." See? We're fine with that. Republicans don't have to have abortions, and in fact, the Democrats would probably be all too happy to help pass legislation to help women who wanted to keep their babies, or adopt, or whatever. But it's all so black and white with them! You must do as they say. You must believe as they believe. If you don't, you're suspect.

Back to the topic at hand, picking Palin as the nominee and then trying to focus on the LOOK SHE IS A WOMAN aspect (along with all the related "if you don't like her, Democrats, you're sexist!" nonsense) as if all women are interchangeable? That's offensive, too. The logic just breaks down.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 11:25 AM on September 3, 2008 [7 favorites]

I think onlyconnect is right on here. It doesn't make any sense why Palin is still on the ticket, but here she is, and she's not going anywhere.

If the zeitgeist here eventually catches up with the public's zeitgeist, there will be a world of hurt for Palin. But we saw the same thing with Obama -- he roared out in January and February, but eventually the anti-Obama zeitgeist fell into line with everyone else's. And then he struggled. By then, of course, he had a big delegate cushion, but you heard the same things from the Hillary supporters you're starting to hear here now. When are they going to wake up and see what Obama is? When are the Adults going to fix The Obama Problem? Can't they see He Is A Liability?

It's all politics. Tonight she'll dog-and-pony her flimsy credentials, collect her standing O for raising her daughter to respect life, and show herself to be perfect at reading attack-dog speeches. And McCain will get his convention bump, and we will reach the closing 8 weeks of this insane campign.

If the Obama campaign takes Palin as lightly as we do, then they're done, and McCain's president. I don't think they will. I think they will treat her with respect and dignity, all while using all the oppo pulled up in the last 120 hours to make the case that she is Another George Bush as well as Worse Than Quayle and also Can't Play Nice With Others.

But remember... in the words of our favorite New Age videographer bangin' politician, there are Two Americas. In fact, there are many of them. And the one you're in is not the one who sees Palin as the working mother pentecostal maverick with her knocked up daughter she loves.

Two months from tomorrow, folks. After the balloons drop, the bell lap.
posted by dw at 11:25 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

and for the most part we don't understand how our country could have chosen Bush over Gore in 2000
There was a good discussion in askMe about that.
posted by davar at 11:28 AM on September 3, 2008

(sorry, psmealey, I didn't even notice that quote was yours.)
posted by onlyconnect at 11:30 AM on September 3, 2008

Why such a downer on teen pregnancies?
posted by Rumple at 11:31 AM on September 3, 2008

"Has the candidate who mocked Obama for his celebrity status created the newest Jamie Lynn Spears?"

Jamie Lynn Spears Sends Gift to Bristol Palin.
posted by ericb at 11:33 AM on September 3, 2008

I need some perspective. Do any of the medical folks have any input on the questions arising with her fifth child and her risky behavior? As on the line of trying to cause a miscarriage? Scurrilous? Yes. Possible? You tell me.

Hi, jadepearl. I don't have medical training, but my thesis was on the anti-abortion movement, and I know about all the weird things women have done from the 18th, 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries that women have done to induce miscarriages. Personally, I think Palin's actions were similar to the Atlantaman with multi-drug resistant TB who flew all over Europe with the potential to infect lots of people, because he was scared about getting medical treatment outside the United States. I think Palin was more interested in making sure that she had her baby in Alaska than outside her home state. This is consistent with her husband Todd's statement You can't have a fish picker from Texas. Perhaps Palin thought it was bad public relations for a governor to have a baby outside her home state. Perhaps Palin is so Alaska-centric that she sincerely believed that only an Alaska hospital would do for her baby. Either way, I don't think she had a deliberate desire to induce a miscarriage.
posted by jonp72 at 11:34 AM on September 3, 2008

And yet, we elected him, twice in a row.

Debatable. Especially 2000.

Although the fact that it was close enough to steal easily both times doesn't say good things about the intellegence of the few Americans who bother to vote
posted by QIbHom at 11:40 AM on September 3, 2008

I do not think it is "democratic defeatism" to say hey, wait a minute guys, let's try to understand the other side of this instead of perpetuating our little circle jerk here, to make sure we don't push the people's buttons and send them off to vote for McCain/Palin. Just like it is not unpatriotic to criticize our military policies, it is not defeatist to be realistic.

As was pointed out before, 2000 and 2004 were very close, but then something happened - namely, 2006, 2007, and 2008. Things have actually changed since 2004, believe it or not, and the same people who were sore and confused about the presidential election results in 2004 licked their wounds, got out there and put the Dems back in power in 2006. That upswing is still going. Personally, I'm going to ride that upswing, pass it on to others, try to get people excited about getting out there and taking the White House back. That's how an election is won, not through worry that excitement over our side might be seen as a "little circle jerk" that might "push people's buttons" into voting McCain, so gosh, we better tone it down and not act too uppity. The batshit insane set who think Palin is ideal VP material weren't exactly on the fence about Obama.

It is actually possible to hammer McCain on the issues while remaining confident of victory. I don't see a tortoise-and-hare scenario going on here. Every step of the way has been made with hard work and fearless confidence, and it does not at all serve us to bite our nails over what the McCain people might think if we sound too excited, nor does it serve us to stay mired in the hurt feelings of 2004. Especially when so much has happened since then.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:42 AM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

Since she couldn't. Cause she was past the "miscarriage" time. Argh! Enough!
posted by agregoli at 11:46 AM on September 3, 2008

Was the 2004 Election Stolen? "Republicans prevented more than 350,000 voters in Ohio from casting ballots or having their votes counted -- enough to have put John Kerry in the White House."
posted by kirkaracha at 11:53 AM on September 3, 2008

Videos of Sarah Palin as Governor of Alaska, addressing her church that the war in Iraq is "a task that is from God", and Jesus-fish tattoos.
posted by orthogonality at 11:54 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing, the "fearless confidence" that is going on in this thread is not excitement over Obama, it is excitement over a VP choice that most people on this site don't understand the appeal of, whereas many other Americans do. You may take your "fearless confidence" and many of the things that have been said about Palin here and talk to other Americans about why Palin is a terrible VP candidate. I am saying that in many cases this is going to alienate people who identify with her, rather than have the reaction you seem to be predicting. Without understanding them, you cannot reach them.

But go ahead and scoff at me for for being a "defeatist" who is sitting around "bit[ing] my nails" nursing my "hurt feelings of 2004." That's okay. (Guess what: You're alienating me, too.)
posted by onlyconnect at 11:54 AM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin is simply Bush reborn.

The neo-con strategists are far too scheming to have McCain as the front man. He is just a place holder. She will not be veep in the next year; she will be president. And then she will take all the 'reforms' Bush began and move them forward - as was planned.

In the next few weeks she will be praised and loved for her grace and her 'real people' connection. Then she will be voted in on a wave of sympathy for all the attacks she had to endure at the hands of the brutal liberals and unfeeling media

/horror film
posted by Surfurrus at 11:55 AM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

While I view jumping on the plane while in labor or near-labor as a foolish decision adding unnecessary risks to the pregnancy, I think it makes about as much sense to regard it as an abortion attempt as it does to regard running a stop sign as a suicide attempt.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 11:56 AM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Website with Speeches and Sermons from Palin's Former Church Shuts Down as Religious Views of Candidate Face Scrutiny.
posted by ericb at 12:02 PM on September 3, 2008

Just FYI, this thread is now the fourth in MeFi history to cross 2500 comments, and the second on the Blue.

It took the current record holder on the Blue (the BoingBoing/Violet Blue thread) almost 30 days to reach 2500 comments. This thread reached 2500 in over 125 hours, 2 minutes.
posted by dw at 12:02 PM on September 3, 2008

Sarah Palin will out herself as a complete joke. Just watch.
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:03 PM on September 3, 2008

onlyconnect, I'm not scoffing at you. Wasn't my intention anyway.

You may take your "fearless confidence" and many of the things that have been said about Palin here and talk to other Americans about why Palin is a terrible VP candidate. I am saying that in many cases this is going to alienate people who identify with her, rather than have the reaction you seem to be predicting. Without understanding them, you cannot reach them.

So wait - we're not supposed to talk to people who express support for Palin about why she'd be a bad choice? Because it might alienate them? I'm not sure I fully understand that - are you talking about the way in which people talk to Palin supporters about the issues? If so, I agree - it's always a better idea to talk with people instead of at them, be respectful of their backgrounds and so on. I think the Obama campaign is doing that. There's certainly enough about Palin and McCain, on the issues, that can be used against them, that would convince the undecided to vote Obama. The hardcore Talibaptist set, probably not so much.

Why I took issue with was this hand-wringing about how we can dare feel confident of victory based on what happened in 2004, as opposed to what'sbeen happening for the past few years, and what's happening now.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:05 PM on September 3, 2008

This thread reached 2500 in over 125 hours, 2 minutes.

High fives all around!
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 12:06 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

There was a good discussion in askMe about that.

That's just what I needed to read. Seriously sobering. Raises so many questions about what to do.
posted by cashman at 12:12 PM on September 3, 2008

Just thought I'd throw this in here.

DeLay, Santorum say Dems are better organzied.

Before the 2006 congressional elections, “the left and the Democrats had spent seven years putting together one of the most powerful political coalitions that had ever been built,” DeLay said Wednesday. ... Santorum, who lost his Senate seat in the 2006 elections, agreed that Democrats had been successful at building their party’s political infrastructure.

“Liberals invest their money in government,” Santorum said, arguing that third-party advertising, “driven, unfortunately ... by our campaign finance laws,” helped Democrats erase Republicans’ historic advantage in fundraising.

He also claimed that liberals’ influence in Hollywood and other cultural arenas helped Democrats take power in Washington.

“The left controls ... those mechanisms of power in our country,” Santorum said. “All we have is the family. All we have is the churches.”

posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:21 PM on September 3, 2008

"Talibaptist"? Oh man. In the spirit of trying to create a Bridge to Somewhere with MeFi's conservatives, I am not touching that with a ten foot pole, much as I really want to...

As for the Violet Blue thread comparison, you know, they touch a lot of the same buttons. "Un-personing" VB by deleting her posts and going against all usual internet standards for transparency is the nerd version of forcing your politico-religious views on someone, or denying them an equal platform. (*cough cough* RNC protester violence and "freedom of speech cages"). We get annoyed that a high-profile site like Boing Boing would do such a thing over a personal snit, and we get annoyed that McCain would choose a running mate based on fifteen freaking minutes with someone when this country is heading down the economic toilet.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 12:24 PM on September 3, 2008

Don't forget that her experience with the Alaska National Guard also equips her to deal with threats from marauding Siberians ~~planning an invasion over the Bering land bridge and the Global War~~ on Polar Bears.

Oh my.
posted by Tenuki at 12:26 PM on September 3, 2008

I think Palin was more interested in making sure that she had her baby in Alaska than outside her home state. This is consistent with her husband Todd's statement You can't have a fish picker from Texas. Perhaps Palin thought it was bad public relations for a governor to have a baby outside her home state. Perhaps Palin is so Alaska-centric that she sincerely believed that only an Alaska hospital would do for her baby.

Perhaps she is a secessionist, and wants her baby born in her own country, not in the United States.

Or perhaps her religion tells her to graciously submit to the will of her husband, who definitely is a secessionist, and probably wants his baby born in his own country, not in the United States.
posted by Flunkie at 12:27 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin attack ad on Obama
posted by Artw at 12:38 PM on September 3, 2008

Total aside here: as we learn more detail about Ms. Palin's life, I find myself recurrently musing on Mike Chabon's wonderful The Yiddish Policemen's Union.
posted by mwhybark at 12:42 PM on September 3, 2008

Choreography

"Since there is widespread agreement that the children of candidates should not become topics of campaign debate, it behooves us to note that the McCain campaign has almost singlehandedly made Sarah Palin's daughter a central figure in the Republican convention.

It was the McCain campaign that announced Palin's daughter's pregnancy. That alone might be understandable since it appears a supermarket tabloid was about to print the story. But it was the McCain campaign, entirely on its own, that dished up unsubstantiated claims about maternity tests and all sorts of other lurid nonsense that had never been seen in print anywhere. And now the McCain campaign has staged a ceremonial laying-on-of-hands on the tarmac in St. Paul in which Sen. McCain has given his official blessing to the young couple and embrace of Bristol's boyfriend Levi.

Let's be clear about what's happening here. Overwhelmingly, reporters are pressing eminently reasonable questions -- her role in troopergate, her lack of experience, her connections to the AIP, her history of earmarking and lobbyists, etc. Meanwhile, the McCain campaign is going absolutely non-stop about Palin's daughter. It is unmistakable."

posted by ericb at 12:46 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

“The left controls ... those mechanisms of power in our country,” Santorum said. “All we have is the family. All we have is the churches.”

And the oil companies. And the defense industry. And pretty much the rest of the Fortune 500.
posted by birdherder at 12:48 PM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

McCain stages photo op with pregnant teen's unwed boyfriend

"...it's now clear that the McCain campaign WANTS all of America talking about this story. The McCain campaign leaked the story to Reuters. The McCain campaign clearly must have approved, if not cajoled, the 18 year old father to come to the convention. And the McCain campaign staged today's photo op with John McCain touching the boy's shoulder. They want the media to talk about Sarah Palin's unwed daughter's pregnancy. Why? Because it's clearly hurting them with their base, and they're in damage control. And what's a few teenage kids and a baby when the Republicans have an election to win. McCain now feels that he needs to show religious right Republicans (are there any other nowadays?) that the two kids are 'nice' kids, and that they shouldn't blame McCain or Palin for the unwed pregnancy. Talk about hypocritical. Dragging the young man in front of millions of Americans in order to serve John McCain's political ambitions. Talk about reckless. I'm hoping the media is going to ask why the McCain campaign spent the past 24 hours berating the media for covering this story (a story the McCain campaign leaked in the first place), and now the McCain campaign is further the 'private' story with public photo ops."

posted by ericb at 12:49 PM on September 3, 2008

so pretty much, we could re-write DW's democratic primaries / baseball allegory with "pregnant teen daughter" instead of "white people"
posted by mrzarquon at 12:49 PM on September 3, 2008

The Sarah Palin Digest -- "ThinkProgress has put together a document compiling what we know about Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin (R), Sen. John McCain’s (R-AZ) vice presidential running mate."
posted by ericb at 12:54 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Perhaps she is a secessionist, and wants her baby born in her own country, not in the United States.

Baby Country First!
posted by kuujjuarapik at 12:55 PM on September 3, 2008

Ah, so the plan is to make Palin a martyr and victim of the press? Does the press plan to be the scapegoats on this one?
posted by jadepearl at 1:00 PM on September 3, 2008

Perhaps she is a secessionist, and wants her baby born in her own country, not in the United States.

Her husband actually said, explaining why they endured a twelve hour+ plane trip back to Alaska after her water broke, that "you can't have a fish picker be born in Texas," or something along those lines.
posted by jayder at 1:02 PM on September 3, 2008

The Sarah Palin Digest

Doesn't have the "Dairygate" stuff.
posted by cashman at 1:03 PM on September 3, 2008

Damn, this thread's already entered into Zager & Evans territory!
posted by jonp72 at 1:04 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Marisa:
It's worth remembering that the people that vote in midterm elections tend to be the, ah, more thoughtful portion of the electorate. Those leaning Democratic in 2006 were very motivated to vote, leading to record-breaking turnout for a congressional election, whilst the Republicans were clearly unmotivated by the Bush white house. For the Presidential election, the demographics are much different; there's certainly going to be a continuation of the 2006 trend, but I don't think the voting will seem quite as lopsided, simply because it's a different totality of voters.
posted by kaibutsu at 1:05 PM on September 3, 2008

Point well taken, kaibatsu. Congressional elections are like a "battle of the bands" show between some different local indie acts at a neighborhood club, whereas presidential elections are like American Idol.

I nonetheless hope those who voted Dem two years ago will do so again this November.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:12 PM on September 3, 2008

mwhybark: I noted in the NYT that the guy she defeated for mayor moved to Sitka to be a city administrator. But not to alternate-reality Jewish Sitka.

“Sarah comes in with all this ideological stuff, and I was like, ‘Whoa,’ ” said Mr. Stein, who lost the election. “But that got her elected: abortion, gun rights, term limits and the religious born-again thing. I’m not a churchgoing guy, and that was another issue: ‘We will have our first Christian mayor.’ ”

“I thought: ‘Holy cow, what’s happening here? Does that mean she thinks I’m Jewish or Islamic?’ ” recalled Mr. Stein, who was raised Lutheran, and later went to work as the administrator for the city of Sitka in southeast Alaska. “The point was that she was a born-again Christian.”

posted by yarrow at 1:22 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

I would love to see a Clinton ad tearing her to teeny-tiny little peices on some of this stuff.
posted by Artw at 1:29 PM on September 3, 2008

Peggy Noonan and Mike Murphy on a live mic.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 1:30 PM on September 3, 2008 [16 favorites]

Republicans Peggy Noonan and Mike Murphy caught on live mics on MSNBC, talking candidly about Palin. Via John Gruber
posted by sveskemus at 1:31 PM on September 3, 2008

PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE PUNDITS BEHIND THE CURTAIN!
posted by cortex at 1:35 PM on September 3, 2008

Ah, beaten to it.
posted by sveskemus at 1:36 PM on September 3, 2008

taking a plane flight after your water breaks has to be just about the most publicly visible, stupidest, least effective method of "abortion" conceivable.

Not true. I once witnessed a feller sit his girlfriend on the back of his moped whilst he rode across a plowed field perpendicular to the furrows. That is a historical fact. Whether she was preggers or not wasn't established, nor was I party to the results of the "abortion".

Hey, if all this teenage sex and preggo action is such a private matter, why did they fly the redneck out to Minnesota for a photo op? I say fair game.
posted by jsavimbi at 1:36 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Regardless of how this election ends, I predict a rising popularity of teen pregnancies in the near future.

I also predict rising popularity of the following baby names:
Bristol
Sarah
Piper
Trig (uh, not so much)
(possibly) Palin

Also, watch out for a new trend of activities-related baby names, such as "Track": PhysEd, Summer Camp, Math (for the geeky), the possibilities are endless!

"Mom, why is my first name 'Recess'?"
"Well, you see ..."
posted by sour cream at 1:39 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Their conclusion is not "let's help those unmarried teenage mothers who keep their babies", it's "unmarried teenage mothers who keep their babies shouldn't exist in the first place".

The fact that they do and will exist is simply not relevant (to them).

I have to disagree with this. I know pro-life Christians who work with unmarried teenage mothers, giving them a place to stay, helping with adoption services if they go that route, providing clothes, diapers, and formula if they keep their babies. They're a little heavy on the anti-abortion propaganda, but they're acting compassionately in a way that's consistent with what they claim to believe. You can't say that about Sarah Palin.
posted by EarBucket at 1:40 PM on September 3, 2008

And here's Peggy Noonan's WSJ article from this morning: A Clear and Present Danger To the American Left.
posted by ericb at 1:41 PM on September 3, 2008

With McCain's history of (choose one) maverick / erratic decision making and his known short-fuse temper, I have to wonder (and haven't seen this brought up anywhere, so maybe it is off limits): does he have PTSD as a result of being a POW?
posted by Rumple at 1:43 PM on September 3, 2008

does he have PTSD as a result of being a POW?

How dare you ask that? He was a POW, you know!
posted by EarBucket at 1:45 PM on September 3, 2008

Transcript of the open mic exchange:

"Todd: Mike Murphy, Peggy Noonan. Lots of free advice.We'll see if Steve Schmidt and the boys were watching. Lots of free advice.

blather, cross talk over CT

Noonan: Um, yeah.

Murphy: Um, you know, because, I come out of the blue swing state governor world. Engler, Whitman, Tommy Thompson, Mitt Romney, Jeb Bush, I mean, and these guys, this is all how you win a Texas race, just run it up, and it's not gonna work.

Noonan: It's Over.

Murphy: Still, McCain can give a version of the Lieberman speech and do himself some good.

Todd: [can't really tell what he says, but he mentions something about "insulting to Kay Baily Hutchinson]

Noonan: [says something I can't understand]

Todd: She's never looked comfortable up there.

Murphy: Oh, fuck that.

Todd: I mean, is she really the most qualified woman they can obtain?

Noonan: The most qualified? No. I think they went for this, excuse me, political bullshit about narratives...[couldn't hear the end of it]

Todd: Yeah, but what's a narrative?

Murphy: I totally agree.

Noonan: Every time Republicans do that, because that's not where they live and it's not what they're good at, they blow it.

Murphy: You know what's the worst thing about it, the greatest of McCain is no cynicism, and..

Murphy and Todd together: This is cynical.

Todd: And as you called it, gimmicky."

posted by ericb at 1:45 PM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

I once witnessed a feller sit his girlfriend on the back of his moped whilst he rode across a plowed field perpendicular to the furrows.

I'm so stealing that.

for a story. not in real life. I don't even own a moped.
posted by Bookhouse at 1:46 PM on September 3, 2008

How republicans are talking about this when they think they're mikes are off (rough transcript (watch the video))

(republican strategist) Mike Murphy: I come out of the blue-state govern work ... this is all how you win a race in texas, just run it up. And it's not going to work...

Peggy Noonan: It's Over...

Peggy Noonan: They went for this narrative, excuse me, bullshit.

I was also going to link Josh Marshal's point about how McCain is actually hyping the teen pregnancy story, in order to get all the other stuff off the airwaves, but ericb beat me to it.
posted by delmoi at 1:48 PM on September 3, 2008

Damn you ericb!!!!
posted by delmoi at 1:49 PM on September 3, 2008

At 36 weeks, the baby is done. Ready. There are things that can go wrong with labor, sure, but if a baby dies during labor, you do NOT call it a miscarriage, you call it a stillbirth.

Not to nit-pick, but the baby was born a month early, so 32 weeks. Still apparently called a stillbirth though. While there's apparently no precise defninition in the U.S., the most common rule of thumb is that a fetus deceased >= 20 weeks = stillbirth.
posted by msalt at 1:52 PM on September 3, 2008

Gotta love how Noonan and Murphy have been yaking away on-camera, reciting the "talking points," but when off-camera they -- like many of the surrogates who have been forced to "accept" Palin's candidacy -- are truly shocked and concerned about the Republican ticket.

McCain strategist and P.R. flak Steve Schmidt just had a cow!
posted by ericb at 1:53 PM on September 3, 2008

Funny how Peggy Noonan can spend an entire article talking about the subtle nuances and shades of Palin, yet in a frank, candid conversation on ths subject, refers to her pick as the VP candidate as "bullshit".

I know it shouldn't come as a surprise that these partisan hacks are just repeating their assigned talking points, but it is infuriating nonetheless when the veil is dropped, as it just was. Would it be so hard to have people on these shows who actually believe what they are saying? If not, then please, just hire a good-looking actor to read the talking points.
posted by Rumple at 1:55 PM on September 3, 2008

Perhaps she is a secessionist, and wants her baby born in her own country, not in the United States.home or some place familiar when they're sick or scared or in pain, however stupid that may be. Can we please talk about how she's an idiot on the issues, and not how she's an idiot about childbirth and children? C'mon, now, at the very least, making nice with secessionists?
posted by dilettante at 1:59 PM on September 3, 2008

I want to understand the underpinnings of what is becoming broken-water gate....

I'm just going to touch on this very briefly. At first, I also thought it was very weird, but upon reflection I think it was ... ok, still weird, but there are a ton of things we don't know (and shouldn't know).

Chief among them, we don't know what her other labors were like. In the article from the Alaska paper that she was having contractions at the rate of 1 - 2 per hour. Some women are "in labor" like this for days and days and days and days. Its completely possible that her fifth pregnancy followed a pattern held by the first four: slow leak of fluids and widely spaced contractions, but the labor never progresses. Media reports have said that true labor was eventually induced, says to me that her labor never progressed passed that stage. I have a friend who sat at home (with her midwife, awaiting a home birth) for almost 36 hours before they gave up on a low-intervention birth and went to the birth center (and eventually the hospital for a C-section).

Most MDs will tell you that the leaking fluid is a risk for infection, and it is. But we don't know how much she was leaking or how fast. She spoke with her doctor. Presumably (again, after having been through this four other times and knowing well what her body was likely to do) they decided that it was safe for her to continue with her "regular activities" until something changed.

Honestly, the only thing that still freaks me out is the long flight home. I'm a little surprised that she never saw an MD in Texas, even to get a dose of IV antibiotics to help stave off infection until she could get home. But I'm just not willing to question another woman's medical choices, especially when it comes to labor and delivery. On the contrary, I wouldn't vote for her in a million years, but I do like the example of her as a mom: She's delivered five children without a C-section, she breast feeds, and she's a mom trying to balance family and her career.

On reflection, I wonder what her views are on BPA in bottles.....
posted by anastasiav at 2:00 PM on September 3, 2008

Sometimes I doubt Peggy Noonan's commitment to Sparkle Motion.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 2:00 PM on September 3, 2008 [7 favorites]

Murphy: Oh, fuck that.

Exactly, Mike Murphy. Exactamundo.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 2:00 PM on September 3, 2008

just hire a good-looking actor to read the talking points.

McCain did. She's giving the keynote speech tonight at the RNC!
posted by ericb at 2:01 PM on September 3, 2008 [6 favorites]

“The left controls ... those mechanisms of power in our country,” Santorum said. “All we have is the family. All we have is the churches.”

And the oil companies. And the defense industry. And pretty much the rest of the Fortune 500.

Not to mention the financial services and pharmaceutical industries, as well as the Executive and Judicial Branches of the fucking federal government and all the mechanisms of power therein.

This is why I dread the RNC every four years, even though I tried to avoid it like the plague. It's simply astonishing to me how easily these people can walk up to the podium, one after another, and spew endless streams of utter falsehoods without so much as batting an eyelash, or being taken to task for it by the press.
posted by psmealey at 2:01 PM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

I know it shouldn't come as a surprise that these partisan hacks are just repeating their assigned talking points, but it is infuriating nonetheless when the veil is dropped, as it just was. Would it be so hard to have people on these shows who actually believe what they are saying? If not, then please, just hire a good-looking actor to read the talking points.

What's even more amazing to me is that some insane citizens swallow the tripe whole and regurgitate it back onto the rest of us as if it was some reasoned position.

Hyperreality indeed.
posted by milarepa at 2:02 PM on September 3, 2008

Ya' know? It's the media's fault that Noonan and Murphy spoke their minds!
posted by ericb at 2:03 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Not to nit-pick, but the baby was born a month early, so 32 weeks.

Full term is generally considered 40 weeks (because doctors count from the last period, not the date of conception). So 36 weeks would be about a month early.
posted by anastasiav at 2:05 PM on September 3, 2008

I'm so stealing that.

I believe it was a red Derbi Antorcha. And she sat ladylike. With both legs on one side. Maybe it didn't work because of that. Hope that helps.
posted by jsavimbi at 2:06 PM on September 3, 2008

Oh, for fuck's sake. That started with a quick disclaimer about how of course the woman is horrifying, but lots of people have a strong instinct to go home when sick or scared or whatever.

And now I will sit here and cuss quietly to myself.
posted by dilettante at 2:07 PM on September 3, 2008

"The McCain campaign has leaked word that Sarah Palin is on top of all the issues that affect America -- because she has been studying since Sunday. Don't you feel better now?
posted by ericb at 2:09 PM on September 3, 2008

"Levi Johnston, a high school hockey player for Wasilla High School, is not listed on the team roster for 2008-2009, and his mother wouldn't say if he graduated. She said simply he's no longer a student and any further information would have to come from him." ^*

The scrutiny on these kids is only going to get hotter.
posted by ericb at 2:12 PM on September 3, 2008

jsavimbi's comment is #2557, surpassing the BoingBoing/Violet Blue thread for the longest in the history of the Blue.

5 days, 7 hours, 14 minutes to break a record that took the full 30 days to set, and no longboats in sight.
posted by dw at 2:14 PM on September 3, 2008

Peggy "Thousand-Points-of-Light"-Ronald-Freaking-Reagan-Eterna-Muse Noonan... SAID WHAT... ON A LIVE MIKE????

I thought this day could bring nothing good. The internet, and particularly YouTube, are beautiful, wonderful things.
posted by clever sheep at 2:16 PM on September 3, 2008

Not to go all conspiracy theorist, but can anyone see recent comments posted on the forum for Peggy Noonan's article here? Every time I go back to it, the page count goes up, but all I get are blank pages after page 8, and the last comment there presumably predates the open mic being made public.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 2:17 PM on September 3, 2008

I'd really like to see a transcript of the before-and-after of Noonan's comments, just to make her mendacious bullshit crystal-clear.
posted by Rumple at 2:19 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

McCain's pissed at CNN. Now MSNBC. He, Palin and surrogates are hating the media today. Just wait until the tough questions and debates.
posted by ericb at 2:20 PM on September 3, 2008

spew endless streams of utter falsehoods without so much as batting an eyelash, or being taken to task for it by the press.

The first part is politics, and it's kind of the point (depending on what the falsehoods are and how truly 'false' they are). The second part, the press, is the real tragedy.
posted by cell divide at 2:21 PM on September 3, 2008

Not to nit-pick, but the baby was born a month early, so 32 weeks.
As anastasiav said, full term is 40 weeks, but most babies are not born on their due date. In my home-birth friendly country, you can have a home birth (home births are free, but you have to pay if you want to give birth in a hospital without a medical indication) from 37 weeks onwards. At 36 weeks, you are one month before your due date, but only one week out of the "safe window" that is 37-42 weeks.
posted by davar at 2:23 PM on September 3, 2008

Noonan and Murphy are going to make it very difficult for the McCain campaign to argue that it's the liberal media picking on Palin. God, what I wouldn't give to listen in on campaign HQ today.
posted by EarBucket at 2:23 PM on September 3, 2008

The first part is politics, and it's kind of the point (depending on what the falsehoods are and how truly 'false' they are).

See, I don't really get this -- well, I do, a little -- it's spin. But what we are now witnessing is simply, blatant lying and saying things one does not believe at all -- and not by paid employees like Press Secretaries (and even they have their professional ethics) but by complete hacks. It's not politics except in the sense of what politics has become. I know it is laughable now, but couldn't some of these people have principles. It goes well beyond "spin" if you make no effort to acknowledge there is some sort of reality.

oh right, they make their own reality....
posted by Rumple at 2:26 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Another incredible allegation emerging from the family war is that Palin, a mother of five, had an affair with a former business associate of her fisherman husband, Todd.

“Todd discovered the affair and quickly dissolved his friendship and his business associations with the guy,” charges an enemy. “Many people in Alaska are talking about the rumor and say Todd swept it under the rug.”

From The Corner
posted by empath at 2:28 PM on September 3, 2008

Damn you ericb!!!!

Oh how many times I've said that as Rakim spits ridiculously incredible lyrics over beats that sound like somebody dropped a tupperware container with spoons on the hood of a car.

Just wait until the tough questions and debates.

Hahahaha! Whoo! Good one.
posted by cashman at 2:30 PM on September 3, 2008 [6 favorites]

She said simply he's no longer a student and any further information would have to come from him

He's a MAN now.
posted by Artw at 2:30 PM on September 3, 2008

dw: Well, maybe a hint thereof.

Oboy! Alaska! That's where...
posted by mwhybark at 2:31 PM on September 3, 2008

God, what I wouldn't give to listen in on campaign HQ today.

"So ... how much was Romney asking for again?"
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:31 PM on September 3, 2008

dw: "jsavimbi's comment is #2557, surpassing the BoingBoing/Violet Blue thread for the longest in the history of the Blue.

5 days, 7 hours, 14 minutes to break a record that took the full 30 days to set, and no longboats in sight."

She's just that interesting.
posted by sveskemus at 2:32 PM on September 3, 2008

Really, the left-wing media needs to stop with these smears on Palin. First Peggy Noonan, now the National Review.

Um...wait a second...
posted by neroli at 2:34 PM on September 3, 2008

I'm beginning to doubt that she's ever killed a moose.
posted by birdherder at 2:34 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

ericb, there's no reason you or metafilter should be a part of the scrutiny. They're teens, and teens make mistakes, and don't listen to their parents and they lead their own lives. Lives that have basically nothing to do with the Presidential campaign, no matter how riled up the McCain campaign is trying to make people.
posted by garlic at 2:34 PM on September 3, 2008

Wtf? If you go here, it says there are 8 pages in the topic Declarations: A Clear and Present Danger to the American Left. If you click on the link, it says there are 19 pages (and still going up). The first post says "Opinion Journal editors will be making a selection of entries for posting." I wonder when they're planning to "select" some more entries.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 2:35 PM on September 3, 2008

heh:

The first time her name ever appears in any news accounts, at least according to Nexis, was an April 3, 1996 article in The Anchorage Daily News that reported this:

Alaskans Line Up For a Whiff of Ivana
Sarah Palin, a commercial fisherman from Wasilla, told her husband on Tuesday she was driving to Anchorage to shop at Costco. Instead, she headed straight for Ivana.

And there, at J.C. Penney's cosmetic department, was Ivana, the former Mrs. Donald Trump, sitting at a table next to a photograph of herself. She wore a light-colored pantsuit and pink fingernail polish. Her blonde hair was coiffed in a bouffant French twist.

"We want to see Ivana," said Palin, who admittedly smells like salmon for a large part of the summer, "because we are so desperate in Alaska for any semblance of glamour and culture."

Ivana Trump, the former Czechoslovakian Olympic skier who found fame and wealth as the wife of the New York tycoon, came to Anchorage Tuesday to push her line of perfume.

posted by delmoi at 2:36 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Damn you ericb!!!!

Oh how many times I've said that as Rakim spits ridiculously incredible lyrics over beats that sound like somebody dropped a tupperware container with spoons on the hood of a car.

Well played, my friend.
posted by lord_wolf at 2:38 PM on September 3, 2008

McCain's National Co-Chair: Media Coverage Of Palin Is "Completely Fair," Not Sexist
posted by kirkaracha at 2:41 PM on September 3, 2008

It's simply astonishing to me how easily these people can walk up to the podium, one after another, and spew endless streams of utter falsehoods without so much as batting an eyelash, or being taken to task for it by the press.

Speaking of which, I haven't really seen much commentary on Fred Thompson's claim last night that Obama is "the most liberal, most inexperienced nominee to ever run for president."

Is there any metric by which this can be viewed as something other than a baldfaced lie?

Is Barack Obama less experienced than Wendell Willkie or Alton Parker? Is he more liberal than Eugene Debs, Franklin Roosevelt, or Ralph Nader?
posted by designbot at 2:47 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Fellow Navy P-O-W speaks on the experience as preparation for being President.

spoiler: it's not a good one
posted by Rumple at 2:49 PM on September 3, 2008

Oh wow. Noonan and Murphy are priceless, man behind the curtain/emperor has no clothes . . .

That has got to hurt the GOP. These are trusted allies, and Noonan is respected as a voice of the relatively sane cynical hard right. Murphy used to work for McCain, I think in the 2000 election.

This is the biggest story of the Palin saga so far, unless the affair rumor pans out.

All Obama has to do is use that clip for an ad. "Cynical," Noonan says. As if she were talking about someone else.

Thanks Goddess for Live Microphones!
posted by fourcheesemac at 2:56 PM on September 3, 2008

Re: the WSJ piece and its comments: clearly they are cherry picking the comments, but not very thoroughly. Here is a choice one that slipped through, note the dissonance between the first sentence and the rest -- some little drone in a cubicle is only reading the first few words, methinks.

Posted:Wed Sep 03, 2008 2:45 pm Post subject:Re: Declarations: A Clear and Present Danger to the American Lef

Another excellent piece full of good insights by Peggy Noonan. I am extremely disturbed by John McCain's choice of such an inexperienced, unknown person to be VP, whom he barely knew. If I hear the word "maverick" one more time I'm going to puke. It is scary to think of Governor Palin as possibly having to step in as the next president, in this chaotic world we now live in. Anyone who endorses this choice is living in a fairytale story. I, like others, have noticed Hillary and Bill's muteness; but they are just showing their true colors. She really doesn't want to have to support Obama after what has happened to her. She could really make a difference right now with her loony ladies out there if she did. As for Obama, say what you want and criticize him folks, but at least his heart and head seem to be in the right place. If he ONLY cared about winning, rather than his principles, he would have chosen Hillary as his VP mate. Give the guy some credit for being the classy human being that he is. The Obama-bashers out there show us that prejudice is alive and well in America. I certainly am not anxious to pay more taxes so that the government can continue to waste my money, but John McCain has sold out in my opinion.
posted by Rumple at 3:03 PM on September 3, 2008

Funny how Peggy Noonan can spend an entire article talking about the subtle nuances and shades of Palin, yet in a frank, candid conversation on ths subject, refers to her pick as the VP candidate as "bullshit".

God, I love this. Their JOB is to sling party bullshit, but as CITIZENS they are totally contemptuous of the party. It feels right to me.
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:03 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

A more complete transcript of the open mic exchange:

"CHUCK TODD: Mike Murphy, lots of free advice, we'll see if Steve Schmidt and the boys were watching. We'll find out on your blackberry. Tonight voters will get their chance to hear from Sarah Palin and she will get the chance to show voters she's the right woman for the job Up next, one man who's already convinced and he'll us why Gov. Jon Huntsman.
(cut away)

PEGGY NOONAN: Yeah.

MIKE MURPHY: You know, because I come out of the blue swing state governor world: Engler, Whitman, Tommy Thompson, Mitt Romney, Jeb Bush. I mean, these guys -- this is how you win a Texas race, just run it up. And it's not gonna work. And --

PEGGY NOONAN: It's over.

MIKE MURPHY: Still McCain can give a version of the Lieberman speech to do himself some good.

CHUCK TODD: I also think the Palin pick is insulting to Kay Bailey Hutchinson, too.

PEGGY NOONAN: Saw Kay this morning.

CHUCK TODD: Yeah, she's never looked comfortable about this --

MIKE MURPHY: They're all bummed out.

CHUCK TODD: Yeah, I mean is she really the most qualified woman they could have turned to?

PEGGY NOONAN: The most qualified? No! I think they went for this -- excuse me-- political bullshit about narratives --

CHUCK TODD: Yeah they went to a narrative.

MIKE MURPHY: I totally agree.

PEGGY NOONAN: Every time the Republicans do that, because that's not where they live and it's not what they're good at, they blow it.

MIKE MURPHY: You know what's really the worst thing about it? The greatness of McCain is no cynicism, and this is cynical.

CHUCK TODD: This is cynical, and as you called it, gimmicky.

MIKE MURPHY: Yeah."

posted by ericb at 3:06 PM on September 3, 2008 [6 favorites]

PEGGY NOONAN: The most qualified? No! I think they went for this -- excuse me-- political bullshit about narratives --

CHUCK TODD: Yeah they went to a narrative.

MIKE MURPHY: I totally agree.

PEGGY NOONAN: Every time the Republicans do that, because that's not where they live and it's not what they're good at, they blow it.

That's the part I don't get, because I would have said the evil genius of the Republicans since Reagan has been precisely to create narratives and sell them to the voters, many of them who would not necessarily vote with them on issues.
posted by Rumple at 3:09 PM on September 3, 2008

Huh, the open mic story is nowhere to be found on the Drudge Report front page, but they did remove the link to Peggy Noonan's article that was only a few hours old. Funny how that works.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 3:16 PM on September 3, 2008

Murphy used to work for McCain, I think in the 2000 election.

It's worse than that, he was McCain's chief strategist in 2000.

The cracks are starting to show--I thought Palin had weathered the storm, to a certain extent, but this is going to crank up the pressure on McCain to dump her.
posted by EarBucket at 3:19 PM on September 3, 2008

Is it over for McCain? The Republicans can pretend that the media has turned against them. They can pretend that they used the hurricane as an excuse to avoid coverage of the convention. They can pretend that only evil, sexist, misogynists are against Sarah Palin. But the truth is that McCain’s cronies have made a fatal choice. They ran this gal up the flagpole and the pole broke from shock.

Well-known media liberal Michael Savage.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 3:28 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

An interesting WTF titbit from the text of Romney's speech scheduled for tonight:

We need change all right -- change from a liberal Washington to a conservative Washington! We have a prescription for every American who wants change in Washington -- throw out the big government liberals and elect John McCain.

Words are starting to fail me here now....
posted by Rumple at 3:32 PM on September 3, 2008

I, like others, have noticed Hillary and Bill's muteness; but they are just showing their true colors. She really doesn't want to have to support Obama after what has happened to her. She could really make a difference right now with her loony ladies out there if she did.

That's right, TPS's prediction was right, and this is all Hillary's fault!

MarisaStolethePreciousThing, I didn't mean that we shouldn't try to talk to others about Palin's lack of qualifications, just that we should watch the tone and also choose the issues wisely -- ixnay on the pregnant daughter or the Down's syndrome baby wasn't really Palin's or it was a bad choice to have the baby or do we really want a VP who is breastfeeding etc. Some of the stuff in this thread will really turn the on-the-line voters off.

I think we can choose to disagree about our levels of confidence that voters will do the right thing, but (so long as we agree on the potential dangers of going off in the wrong direction with that confidence, and I think we do) I sincerely admire your positivism and desire-to-inspire attitude.
posted by onlyconnect at 3:36 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Yeah, Rumple, it's floored me how they're trying to run this convention as if they're the scrappy reformers, taking back the reins of power from the incumbents. I'm surprised they even let Bush speak by video.

Apropos of nothing, here's Cindy McCain this afternoon. Somehow, it seems to sum up the well-disciplined message machine that the GOP has become.
posted by EarBucket at 3:36 PM on September 3, 2008

I've been watching this thread for days, and it's been amazing.

Republicans (well, Rove, and by extension Republicans...) said former city mayor and current state governor Tim Kaine's résumé wasn't long enough. Despite some hometown pride, I agreed with that sentiment. Now, somehow, former town mayor and current state governor Sarah Palin's résumé is long enough. Does not compute.

The Palin attack ad upthread was humorous. Republicans keep harping on this distinction between Palin's experience and Obama's experience, but they're still comparing apples and oranges. Palin's in the executive branch of a state government, while Obama is in the legislative branch of the federal government. The McCain team can go on as long as they want to about how Obama doesn't have what it takes and Palin does, but all this big talk seems to be prepping Palin for debate with the wrong guy. Why no Palin attack ad against Biden?

A historic thread for my historic 1,000th comment in the blue.
posted by emelenjr at 3:37 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

New polls in three key states:

TIME / CNN / ORC
8/31 - 9/2/08
Mode: Live Telephone Interviews

Iowa (828 RV, 3.5%)
Obama 55, McCain 40
Obama 51, McCain 38, Nader 4, Barr 3, McKinney 2

Minnesota (742 RV, 3.5%)
Obama 53, McCain 41
Obama 51, McCain 37, Nader 4, Barr 2, McKinney 1

Ohio (685 RV, 3.5%)
Obama 47, McCain 45
Obama 45, McCain 44, Nader 5, Barr 2, McKinney 1
posted by Rumple at 3:38 PM on September 3, 2008

I have to admit that the various controversies surrounding Palin give me a case of schadenfreude, largely because McCain criticized Obama for being a big celebrity like Britney Spears, then ironically managed to pick the one politician in the world most like her.

His choice just demonstrates so many problems with McCain, from his lousy judgment to his lack of preparation to his being completely out of touch. It's a level of cluelessness not unlike the time Grandma bought me a John Denver record for my birthday because I like "the rock music."
posted by MegoSteve at 3:41 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Over at The Corner, the NRO's Byron York on the National Enquirer Todd-had-an-affair story:

On this Palin story, I would just say that it seems unlikely the Enquirer was on it before mid-day on Friday, when McCain announced his pick. I believe the paper closes on Monday night, so I think it's safe to say that its brief piece is not the result of a months-long investigation.

I wonder which of the Enquirer story or the VP pick will turn out to have been more thoroughly vetted.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 3:42 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

That's right, TPS's prediction was right, and this is all Hillary's fault!

Naturally! It's strange to me the power people imagine the Clintons have in this issue (or in any other campaign issue now that the convention is over). If Hillary's opinion was really worth that much, she would be on the ticket.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:45 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

This is the biggest story of the Palin saga so far, unless the affair rumor pans out.

Oh God...here we go again. Whatever "the affair rumor" is, I really hope people who want Obama to win leave it the fuck alone. Leave to the Enquirer...and the National Review. Whether it's true or not, it's not a "big story." It's not a good story. It won't change anyone's mind about anything. It's just gloating.

The McCain camp is spinning the "offensive and sexist smears from the left" angle as hard as they can, and they're not going to stop. Even when they're making shit up (and it's clear they are), that's powerful stuff. Don't give them more ammunition.

Yeah, Peggy Noonan and Mike Murphy and I'm sure plenty of other people in the Republican party know this thing is a farce. Of course it's a farce. But I don't think any Democrat can start doing a victory dance yet.

I still think "back off the personal stuff" is essential advice. It's still really easy to fuck this up.

I really wish everyone who wants to pass on on any story about Sarah Palin's vagina--what fluids came out of it, whose penis went into it--would try to imagine that every time they click Post or Send, they're pulling another lever for John McCain.
posted by neroli at 3:49 PM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

Hillary will get involved after the convention, I'm sure. She doesn't want to step on Palin's historic speech. She'll let a few days, maybe a week or two go by, to give the appearance of giving her a chance, wait for some kind of gaffe, and then tear her to pieces.
posted by empath at 3:54 PM on September 3, 2008

As much as 2600 comments in 5 days is a new record for MetaFilter, just 1 trivial Palin AP story at the San Francisco Chronicle generated 5100 comments in 1 day.

I'm afraid the sheer overload of Palinyakk has officially clogged the Intertubes. Please come back in a few days; we need to call a plumber.
posted by dgaicun at 3:54 PM on September 3, 2008

Apologies if this has already been posted...

Asked his reaction to DeLay's appearance in Minneapolis, Cong. John Mica (R-FL) declined to answer and then head-butted the ABC camera.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 3:58 PM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

I'm afraid the sheer overload of Palinyakk has officially clogged the Intertubes. Please come back in a few days; we need to call a plumber.

Maybe Sarah Palin could get in touch with her buddy Ted Stevens to see if there's a plumber he could round up for $60,000,000 of federal funds or so.
posted by Flunkie at 3:59 PM on September 3, 2008

And still Cory Doctorow is silent about this?
posted by maxwelton at 4:37 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

I am way liberal, and I have to say that the head-butting thing looks like he's just trying to get by the camera. I happened to catch some of ABC news the past couple nights, and it seems they're looking biased--and there's too much platform stuff they could legitimately argue for that to be necessary. I didn't think they had to go so far with the whole 'how-dare-they-throw-parties-during-a-hurricane' theme; the RNC has a right to their events, as the Democrats had, and that junk gets planned and coordinated way in advance, so I don't begrudge them for not wanting to just throw it all away.

Just being out around, you know, people, it seems the conversation is shifting away from the more personal stuff and to the variety of ethical issues with Palin. In any case, with two months to go, the whole Palin-as-victim thing is going to get old rather quickly. They'll enjoy their party this week, but reality is going to come around. (And of course, I'd give anything for the Botox concession on returning delegates, considering the painful facial effects of forced excitement; everybody is starting to look like Pat Robertson.)

And Peggy Noonan! How cool is that!?! It's not surprising, as I don't think she can abide anyone who hasn't spent a good part of their career licking Reagan's balls, but her timing is lovely.
posted by troybob at 4:38 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

I didn't mean that we shouldn't try to talk to others about Palin's lack of qualifications, just that we should watch the tone and also choose the issues wisely -- ixnay on the pregnant daughter or the Down's syndrome baby wasn't really Palin's or it was a bad choice to have the baby or do we really want a VP who is breastfeeding etc. Some of the stuff in this thread will really turn the on-the-line voters off.

Oh, God yes. I can appreciate the POV about hypocrisy that's come up here and there, but as I've said since the fake pregnancy theory was floated some 15 miles back in this thread, we do not want to smack that beehive, and her daughter shouldn't be put through the grist mill. I don't care if she's got her whole family and her daughter's BF on stage with them. Let them. There are huge, huuuge issues both McCain and Palin can and should get smacked with, like Palin's power abuses and ties to the fringe right, like McCain's complete out-of-touchness with the every-day people cons claim as their own, and his willingness to continue the disastrous economic and foreign policies of Bush. That is what I love about Obama taking the high road on the Palin family circus (many stories from which have a better home on WWTDD than here, to be honest) - he's not only dismissing the mudslinging, he's dismissing her family card, the "narrative" that Noonan aptly described. He's not even going to address it. Which is awesome, because that "I'm just like ya'll!" shit is going to wear thin mighty fast once her Turner Diary shenanigans are brought more into the spotlight.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:40 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Filling in some of the cracks in our information:

The former police chief, Irl Stambaugh says he was fired because he stepped on the toes of Palin's campaign contributors, including bar owners and the National Rifle Association.

Stambaugh's lawyer, William Jermain, says the chief tried to move up the closing hours of local bars from 5 a.m. to two a.m. after a spurt of drunk driving accidents and arrests.

"His crackdown on that practice by the bars was not appreciated by her and that was one reason she terminated Irl," said Jermain.

I realize we only have Stambaugh's word that this is why he was fired, however I remember something about her not changing the bar hours from another link. I'm trying to track it down, but it stuck out in my mind as unusual at the time. Sex-no, drinking-yes. If she got lots of compaign money from local bars that would explain it.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:45 PM on September 3, 2008

jsavimbi's comment is #2557, surpassing the BoingBoing/Violet Blue thread for the longest in the history of the Blue.

Aw, shucks. After eight years of reading the blue, I finally win something. With a comment about a bootleg abortion.
posted by jsavimbi at 4:51 PM on September 3, 2008

Wow, Michael Savage is against her? This whole shitstorm is just fascinating.
posted by graventy at 4:51 PM on September 3, 2008

So McCain is now 'not talking to' MSNBC and CNN while Obama has made nice with Murdoch? What if his appearance on O'Reilly tomorrow is a lovefest? Damn the liberal media!
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 4:51 PM on September 3, 2008

Noonan really tries, but the most she'll really cop to is a "barnyard ephithet." (Not you, Peggy!) Everything else was just a misunderstanding.
posted by troybob at 4:55 PM on September 3, 2008

Oh dear. MSNBC's reporting that Palin is flying to Alaska tomorrow. She's either going to decline the nomination or accept it and immediately sprint to the Yukon to hide from the press. Neither option is good for McCain.

(And if you're not watching the RNC, turn it on. A Hispanic doctor is talking about how in a few decades, 1 in 3 Americans will be Hispanic. Uncomfortable silence from the delegates.)
posted by EarBucket at 4:59 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh dear. MSNBC's reporting that Palin is flying to Alaska tomorrow.

She probably just wants to spend as little time in the foreign nation as possible.
posted by Flunkie at 5:02 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

Oh dear. MSNBC's reporting that Palin is flying to Alaska tomorrow.

As Commander in Chief of the Alaskan National Guard, she has to finalize preparations and deployment for the planned invasion of Russia. Deadliest catch, my ass, Ivan!
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:08 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

From Noonan's explanation:

within three hours I was receiving it from friends far and wide, asking me why I thought the McCain campaign is "over", as it says in the transcript of the conversation. Here I must plead some confusion. ... I got on the subject of the leaders of the Republican party assuming, now, that whatever the base of the Republican party thinks is what America thinks. "The first lesson they learned is the one they remember," I said to Todd -- and I'm pretty certain that is a direct quote. But, I argued, that's over, those assumptions are yesterday, the party can no longer assume that its base is utterly in line with the thinking of the American people. And when I said, "It's over!" -- and I said it more than once -- that is what I was referring to. In the truncated version of the conversation, on the Web, it appears I am saying the McCain campaign is over. ... bottom line, I am certainly sorry I blurted my barnyard ephithet, I am certainly sorry that someone abused my meaning in the use of the words, "It's over", and I'm sorry I didn't have the Kay Baily Hutchison thought before this morning, because I could have written of it. There.

There! You vultures totally don't get the fact that Noonan speaks in non-sequitor all the time. She's like Reverend Jim from Taxi - you could pinch her earlobe with a pair of plyers, and it won't be until more than halfway into the episode that she clutches her ear and yells, "Ouch!" And then that hot redhead will flirt unconvincingly with turnip-ugly Judd Hirsch, and Tony Danza will mumble some Italian sterotype, that guy with the feathered hair and the scarf will ... wait, what did that guy do, anyway?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:10 PM on September 3, 2008

Uh, what?

Bob Dole, a moment ago, making a comment, realizing that what he was saying probably wasn't the best thing to say, denying that he was saying it, and then saying it again all in one fell swoop:

Bob Dole: I think it's going to be tough for Joe Biden, too, to, you know... you've got to be very careful... and... uh... not...

Andrea Mitchell: Running against a woman.

Bob Dole: Not because she's a woman, beca- ... it's ju-... it's just respect you pay... to... people. And particularly a woman.
posted by Flunkie at 5:11 PM on September 3, 2008

Excerpts from Palin's speech tonight.
posted by Prospero at 5:14 PM on September 3, 2008

Tonight's theme at the RNC appears to be "Brown people: not all of them are scary!"
posted by EarBucket at 5:15 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

There! You vultures totally don't get the fact that Noonan speaks in non-sequitor all the time.

Whew! I thought it was just me. Reading her explanation is like trying to swim through whale blubber. I guess it's good enough for her typical audience, in that it uses up a bunch of words and pretends to say something; but it probably should be posted with a warning for the literate and sentient, not to mention bad swimmers.
posted by troybob at 5:16 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

"Before I became governor of the great state of Alaska, I was mayor of my hometown. And since our opponents in this presidential election seem to look down on that experience, let me explain to them what the job involves. I guess a small-town mayor is sort of like a 'community organizer,' except that you have actual responsibilities."

So, "smug and condescending" is the new "compassionate conservative"?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:18 PM on September 3, 2008 [6 favorites]

I guess a small-town mayor is sort of like a 'community organizer,' except that you have actual responsibilities.

For example, the mayor is in charge of the fire department, which needs to be on hand for the book burning.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:18 PM on September 3, 2008 [15 favorites]

Seriously, these speech excerpts are, for the most part, spite and snark. This is the sort of defensive stance you take when you're on the ropes. And these are the excerpts released to the press by her own people. It's morning in America, and someone pissed in your coffee!
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:22 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Between 9 - 10PM Sarah Palin is slated to address the GOP Convention

You can watch it online here.

Mitt Romney and Mike Huckabee are slated to go between 8 and 9 PM.

Tonight's main topic of the RNC is Reform.

This is going to be good. And by good I mean righteous. And by righteous I mean I already threw up in my mouth a little.
posted by clearly at 5:22 PM on September 3, 2008

ABC's Jake Tapper is accusing the McCain campaign of spreading rumors about Palin purely so that they can knock them down. He may be digging a hole with the media so deep, even a POW can't climb out of it.
posted by EarBucket at 5:27 PM on September 3, 2008

Peggy Noonan's real thoughts caught on an open mic.

Chuck Todd: Mike Murphy, lots of free advice, we'll see if Steve Schmidt and the boys were watching. We'll find out on your blackberry. Tonight voters will get their chance to hear from Sarah Palin and she will get the chance to show voters she's the right woman for the job Up next, one man who's already convinced and he'll us why Gov. Jon Huntsman.

(cut away)

Peggy Noonan: Yeah.

Mike Murphy: You know, because I come out of the blue swing state governor world: Engler, Whitman, Tommy Thompson, Mitt Romney, Jeb Bush. I mean, these guys -- this is how you win a Texas race, just run it up. And it's not gonna work. And --

PN: It's over.

MM: Still McCain can give a version of the Lieberman speech to do himself some good.

CT: I also think the Palin pick is insulting to Kay Bailey Hutchinson, too.

PN: Saw Kay this morning.

CT: Yeah, she's never looked comfortable about this --

MM: They're all bummed out.

CT: Yeah, I mean is she really the most qualified woman they could have turned to?

PN: The most qualified? No! I think they went for this -- excuse me-- political bullshit about narratives --

CT: Yeah they went to a narrative.

MM: I totally agree.

PN: Every time the Republicans do that, because that's not where they live and it's not what they're good at, they blow it.

MM: You know what's really the worst thing about it? The greatness of McCain is no cynicism, and this is cynical.

CT: This is cynical, and as you called it, gimmicky.

MM: Yeah.
posted by afu at 5:27 PM on September 3, 2008

"let me explain to them what the job involves..."

She was in charge of making sure Otis got let out of his cell every morning, Barney kept that bullet in his shirt pocket, and that Aunt Bea and Clara weren't still a fight'n over who won that Apple Pie contest at last years county fair.
posted by tkchrist at 5:30 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

"Mitt Romney’s attack on a candidate’s wife is as pathetic as his failed presidential campaign."

Ouch. The claws are starting to come out.
posted by casarkos at 5:33 PM on September 3, 2008

MSNBC just reported that McCain himself has now explicitly pushed the "Alaska is right next to Russia" meme.
posted by Flunkie at 5:37 PM on September 3, 2008

I guess a small-town mayor is sort of like a 'community organizer,' except that you have actual responsibilities.

"Like balancing the bu... wait, never mind."
posted by XMLicious at 5:44 PM on September 3, 2008

MSNBC just reported that McCain himself has now explicitly pushed the "Alaska is right next to Russia" meme.

Dude, you don't get it, do you? This ties into their energy plan. If we reduce carbon emissions, and reverse global warming, then the polar ice will move its way southward, until Siberia and Alaska are joined by a thick sheet of ice that the Russians will use to roll in and take Alaska back. Or maybe that's what want to happen, comrade?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:45 PM on September 3, 2008

Awesome. The camera just flashed briefly on three people in the audience holding up hand-lettered signs:

"FENCE" "THE" "BUILD"

Morans.
posted by EarBucket at 5:46 PM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

MSNBC just reported that McCain himself has now explicitly pushed the "Alaska is right next to Russia" meme.

Here's hoping someone pulls a Campbell Brown and asks, "Can you name one time the Alaska governor had contact with anyone in the Russian government?"
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 5:49 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

So, is Carly Fiona as disappointing to the rest of you as she is to me? It was pretty apparent after her spying problems that she is massively flawed, but I did not expect this big of a bomb. What an an embarrassment to the McCain campaign. Well, she does want him to protect her wealth. At least she is honest about that.
posted by caddis at 5:49 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Fence! The! Build! Fence! The! Build! U! S! A! U! S! A! Fence! The! Build!
posted by Flunkie at 5:49 PM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

So, is Carly Fiona as disappointing to the rest of you as she is to me?

I cannot genuinely say that I am "disappointed". But jeez, this speech is going over like a lead balloon.
posted by Flunkie at 5:51 PM on September 3, 2008

ARE YOU READY TO PARTY IN THIS HOUSE TONIGHT?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:56 PM on September 3, 2008

Fence! The! Build! Fence! The! Build! U! S! A! U! S! A! Fence! The! Build!

ITYM:

Fence! The! Build!
Fence! The! Build!
U! A! S!
U! A! S!
Fence! The! Build

FTFY. HTH. HAND.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:57 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

When liberals start acting like they're opposed to pre-marital sex and mothers having careers, you know McCain's vice presidential choice has knocked them back on their heels.

posted by dawson at 6:00 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Metafilter: Admittedly smells like salmon for a large part of the summer
posted by lukemeister at 6:00 PM on September 3, 2008

Analysis: GOP contradicts self on Palin family

“People: Make up your minds.

For two days, the chorus from Republicans on TV news and in the halls of the convention has been resounding: Back off and let the Palin family be. ‘That's out of bounds,’ said Minnesota's Republican governor, Tim Pawlenty. ‘There's no need to be intrusive and pry into that.’

Yet Wednesday found the following scenes unfolding:
* Sarah Palin's pregnant, unmarried 17-year-old daughter and probable future son-in-law stood in a nationally televised, politically packaged airport receiving line to meet and greet the Republican candidate for president.

* The extremely cute and bubbly Piper Palin, 7, made her debut on her mother's behalf, appearing in a video on John McCain's daughter's blog. ‘Vote for my mommy and John McCain,’ she said, giggling as Meghan McCain grinned.

* Bristol Palin and her 18-year-old boyfriend, Levi Johnston, were expected to appear together as part of the GOP political narrative at the convention Wednesday night, according to the young man's mother.
Huh? The Republican message about the Palin offspring comes across as contradictory: Hey, media, leave those kids alone — so we can use them as we see fit.

If you doubt this scenario, consider this: On Wednesday morning, a teenage boy from Alaska stood in a receiving line on an airport tarmac, being glad-handed by the potential next president of the United States — because he got his girlfriend pregnant. TV cameras were lined up in advance. The mind boggles.

‘Either the children are out of bounds, and you don't put them in the photo ops, or you don't complain when somebody wants to talk about them. You can't have it both ways,’ said John Matviko, a professor at West Liberty State College in West Virginia and editor of ‘The American President in Popular Culture.’

‘Right now, it looks like they're being used by the campaign more than the media are using them,’ he said.

Though candidates for national office, and those close to them, are under more intense scrutiny than ever before in the American information culture, there is more to this situation than simple celebrity chasing.

These are two young people figuring out how to get through a difficult personal situation. Under normal circumstances, they would be allowed to do so unbothered by global scrutiny. Talk about a teenager's worst nightmare.

But one big obstacle stands in their way: Sarah Palin.

Yes, she has asked the media to ‘respect our daughter and Levi's privacy as has always been the tradition.’ Yet Palin has packaged herself as a PTA member and ‘hockey mom’ — culturally loaded terms calibrated to evoke appealing images of middle America, the middle class, exurbia and strong 21st-century family values.

Using one's relatives as accessories in the political arena, however, can have its pitfalls, despite John McCain's remark to ABC News on Wednesday that Palin has ‘got an incredible resume, including a beautiful family.’ Candidates open themselves to charges of hypocrisy if they demand the ability to boast but reject the attention that can ensue when the road gets rougher.

Barack Obama said flatly that the Palin kids should be ‘off limits,’ but he has engaged in the same thing — though to a much lesser extent.

In July, he and wife Michelle appeared on a four-part ‘Access Hollywood’ interview with daughters Malia, 10, and Sasha, 7. Obama later expressed regret about his decision to put them forward, saying, ‘I don't think it's healthy, and it's something that we'll be avoiding in the future.’

Nevertheless, the Obama girls appeared on stage twice at the Democratic National Convention last week — once to talk to their father via video hookup after their mother's speech, and again after Obama accepted the nomination during the convention's climactic moment.

Let's remember one thing, though: Behind all the political machines and maneuverings, these contenders for the country's highest office are human beings and parents. And a parent is no more infallible than a candidate.

On her blog Monday, Meghan McCain expressed solidarity with the Palin kids, saying she understood the things they were grappling with. ‘It's a rough go being the son or daughter of a politician,’ she wrote. ‘You can't fully understand it unless you have lived it.’

The road is bumpy for sure, and the media probably aren't helping. Sadly, though, the candidates themselves aren't doing much to make things better, either.”

posted by ericb at 6:01 PM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

Just a reminder: C-SPAN is a great option for watching the convention. They show all the speeches with no commercial breaks, and the best part is that there are no talking heads trying to tell you what to think about what you've just heard. It's on most cable networks, and there's also a live internet stream on their website.
posted by Balonious Assault at 6:05 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

MITTBOT HAS DETECTED PODIUM

IMPLEMENT SMILE ROUTINE

ENGAGE SPEAKING MECHANISMS
posted by Flunkie at 6:07 PM on September 3, 2008 [34 favorites]

God, I'd forgotten how fucking smarmy Mitt Romney is.
posted by EarBucket at 6:08 PM on September 3, 2008

WTF Romney? The elites looking to the East? I guess Cheney isn't from Wyoming and Bush from Texas after all.
posted by Rumple at 6:08 PM on September 3, 2008

Just a reminder: C-SPAN is a great option for watching the convention. They show all the speeches with no commercial breaks, and the best part is that there are no talking heads trying to tell you what to think about what you've just heard. It's on most cable networks, and there's also a live internet stream on their website.

Romney - hell, any conservative - evoking the old "big government" meme is fairly ironic, given the last eight years.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:10 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Mitt: "When I say strawman, you say liberal! Strawman!"
Crowd: "Liberal!"
Mitt: "Strawman!"
Crowd: "Liberal!"

Mitt has apparently been watching the MTV.
posted by cortex at 6:10 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Yeah, where does a Massachusetts zillionaire like Romney get off talking about eastern elites?
posted by EarBucket at 6:11 PM on September 3, 2008

ericb: more comments in one thread than most MeFi's make in...months!
I thought the late great MetaMan's record would at least stand a bit longer
cheers 2U ericb
posted by dawson at 6:12 PM on September 3, 2008

"Liberal Washington" OMG.
posted by neroli at 6:12 PM on September 3, 2008

WTF Romney? The elites looking to the East? I guess Cheney isn't from Wyoming and Bush from Texas after all.

Nor is Romney an Eastern elite. Uh, I guess.
posted by Flunkie at 6:12 PM on September 3, 2008

Romney take home message: "McCain is to the right of George Bush."
posted by Rumple at 6:12 PM on September 3, 2008

Wolverines!
posted by kirkaracha at 6:13 PM on September 3, 2008

OBAMA DUDGED
posted by cortex at 6:14 PM on September 3, 2008

Screw this, I have better ways to spend my Wednesday night than watching the GOP convention. I've got this ingrown hair on my leg that I've been dying to fish out with a sewing needle. I'll read the transcripts - and your analysisese - tomorrow.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:15 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

Mitt Romney was from Michigan, France, and Utah before he was from Massachusetts.
posted by lukemeister at 6:16 PM on September 3, 2008

DRILL BABY DRILL!!

NO MORE EVIL!!!!!

FENCE! THE! BUILD!!!
posted by neroli at 6:17 PM on September 3, 2008

[fiddle solo]
posted by neroli at 6:18 PM on September 3, 2008

Another shameless plug for PoliticalFilter -- head over there if you want to discuss the RNC.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:19 PM on September 3, 2008

You guys, the Williamses are playing each other. Much more interesting.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 6:29 PM on September 3, 2008

Angry Amateurs

“The story of the day out here in Minneapolis is the McCain campaign's war against the press....

So what's going on here? Two things. McCain is just plain angry at us. By the evidence presented in the utterly revealing Time interview, he's ballistic. This is a politician who needs to see himself as the man on the white horse, boldly traversing a muddy field...any intimations that he's gotten muddied in the process, or has decided to throw mud, are intolerable.

The second thing is more insidious: Steve Schmidt has decided, for tactical reasons, to slime the press. He wants the public to believe that there is an unfair--sexist (you gotta love it)--personal assault going on against Palin and her family. This is a smokescreen, intended to divert attention from the very real and responsible vetting that is taking place in the media--about the substance of Palin's record as mayor and governor....

There is a tendency in the media to kick ourselves, cringe and withdraw, when we are criticized. But I hope my colleagues stand strong in this case: it is important for the public to know that Palin raised taxes as governor, supported the Bridge to Nowhere before she opposed it, pursued pork-barrel projects as mayor, tried to ban books at the local library and thinks the war in Iraq is ‘a task from God.’ The attempts by the McCain campaign to bully us into not reporting such things are not only stupidly aggressive, but unprofessional in the extreme.”

posted by ericb at 6:30 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Obama says economic issues will decide election

Mefi's counter it will so not be, but rather will be all about sound and fury signifying not much about the lady from Steward's Folly.
posted by dawson at 6:30 PM on September 3, 2008

Some newspaper clippings compiled by the Dems two years ago when Palin was running for governor

Aside from a lot of fun, quirky stuff (such as she presided over a wedding in the Wasilla WalMart) there is also this:

In 1997, Frontiersman columnist Paul Stuart wrote that after Palin had criticized her opponent for using City Hall resources for political gain, "when Palin was asked back then (by me) why the lodge where she claimed, in her campaign, to have gained her management experience, had no record of a borough business license or of paying any bed tax, she paused and said it might have been because the place had no clients for a year or so." In an article describing the possibility of recalling Palin, the Frontiersman wrote the "reasons include Palin's alleged falsification of her credentials during the campaign last fall." [Frontiersman, 1/22/97, 2/5/97]

Frontiersman Editorial Said Palin Made Statements That Were "Patently Untrue," Said She Had Shown "Unrepentant Backpedaling and Incessant Whining." A Frontiersman editorial wrote, "Wasilla residents have been subjected to attempts to unlawfully appoint council members, statements that have been shown to be patently untrue, unrepentant backpedaling, and incessant whining that her only enemies are the press and a few disgruntled supporters of former Mayor John Stein." [Frontiersman editorial, 2/7/97]

Frontiersman Editorial: Palin Doesn't Grasp the Truth. A Frontiersman editorial wrote, "Mayor Palin fails to have a firm grasp of something very simple: the truth." [Frontiersman editorial, 2/7/97]

which confirms that Palin lies. She lies a lot. Up until now it hasn't seemed to hurt her career.

Still waiting to hear the truth about the Miss Congeniality title.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:31 PM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

Man, you guys are persistant.

I spent the day cleaning my mom's house and watching Fox news.

There really ARE two Americas!
posted by konolia at 6:33 PM on September 3, 2008

My favorite line was him saying we don't want big brother.
posted by cavalier at 6:33 PM on September 3, 2008

I actually think that the non-CSPAN version, as absurd as it may be, is better. The speeches themselves are just scripted pap. Interviewing delegates speaking from the cuff is both more interesting and more enlightening, regardless of the facts that Chris Matthews is credulous and Pat Buchanan is from Mars.

An excellent point. I actually do flip around a bit (Alan Colmes just tried to do a Campbell Brown number on Senator Norm Coleman from Minnesota. I'm sure Norm is glad Sean Hannity was there to follow up with some softballs to help him get back on track). It's good to have an option when it gets too thick, though.

Interesting that FOX is skipping the Huckabee speech altogether.
posted by Balonious Assault at 6:34 PM on September 3, 2008

There sure are, konolia, the one that digs to find out the truth, and the one that watches Fox News.
posted by jtron at 6:36 PM on September 3, 2008 [15 favorites]

Huck's a good speaker. Too bad he's got vile policy positions.
posted by Flunkie at 6:36 PM on September 3, 2008

When you've lost Peggy Noonan, you know you've gone too far.
posted by drezdn at 6:39 PM on September 3, 2008

ABC News segment on Irl Stambaugh, the police chief who was fired while Palin was mayor of Wasilla.
posted by XMLicious at 6:39 PM on September 3, 2008

If the Republicans really wanted people to pay attention to this convention why did they schedule McCain's speech to happen on the first night of the NFL season?
posted by drezdn at 6:41 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Fence! The! Build! Fence! The! Build! A! S! U! A! S! U! Fence! The! Build!

Fixed.
posted by batou_ at 6:41 PM on September 3, 2008

Looks like Palin is going to come out swinging against Obama and the press, who has thus far gone easy on her, as has Biden. She's just asking for more scrutiny of her record.
posted by empath at 6:42 PM on September 3, 2008

What would happen at an event like the RNC if the main (only) projector failed in the middle of a speech?
posted by lostburner at 6:50 PM on September 3, 2008

They're now moving male delegates out of the front deck of seats and moving female delegates in there, in preparation for Palin's speech (according to one of the MSNBC people on the floor).
posted by Flunkie at 6:50 PM on September 3, 2008

The POW video above brings up a good point about higher mortality rates among POWs (POW long term health outcomes behind paywall). For McCain's age (72) and race the mortality rate is 3% for each of the next two years, and 5% for each of the two years following. Education/Socioeconomic adjustment should bring the mortality rate down by 25%. I'm not great at probability, but that looks like a 12% chance of dying during the next four years. Newsweek is more optimistic about McCain specifically.
posted by BrotherCaine at 6:51 PM on September 3, 2008

Looks like Palin is going to come out swinging against Obama and the press, who has thus far gone easy on her, as has Biden. She's just asking for more scrutiny of her record.

That's exactly what we need - another self-righteous, mean, petty, small-minded, bitter politician, this one scolding that damned media for having the temerity to do the research on her that the McCain people couldn't be arsed to do.

I like that she's going to go negative, right from the gate. Very encouraging.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:51 PM on September 3, 2008

Did anyone else notice Romney make a biblical sounding reference that was recieved with complete silence? Just wondering if it was a Mormon reference, because every other time he mentioned something remotely godish everyone was cheering.
posted by batou_ at 6:57 PM on September 3, 2008

What would happen at an event like the RNC if the main (only) projector failed in the middle of a speech?

Hopefully more Colbert Report "Green Screen Challenge" hilarity.
posted by Balonious Assault at 7:00 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Was it the "past is prologue" line, batou_? If so, that's a line from Shakespeare's The Tempest, so it's not necessarily surprising that it sailed over most of the audience's heads. (Not a slam on Republicans; classical references are usually pretty lost on modern crowds.)
posted by EarBucket at 7:01 PM on September 3, 2008

If she got lots of compaign money from local bars that would explain it.

Actually, I think she voted to keep bars open until 5AM when she was on the Wasilla City Council. She got some campaign money from bars because of thata.
posted by jonp72 at 7:01 PM on September 3, 2008

Did anyone else notice Romney make a biblical sounding reference that was recieved with complete silence? Just wondering if it was a Mormon reference, because every other time he mentioned something remotely godish everyone was cheering.

Do you remember what it was?
posted by Flunkie at 7:03 PM on September 3, 2008

Unfortunately no, I am working and watching at the same time and was not paying close enough attention.
posted by batou_ at 7:05 PM on September 3, 2008

Still waiting to hear the truth about the Miss Congeniality title.
-- the secret life of gravy

With all the lies to choose from, I wasn't even going to bother to blog that Sarah Palin apparently lied about being named Miss Congeniality in the Miss Wasilla beauty contest. However, out of curiousity, I went to the source work just to read the piece and it didn't mention the contest at all. So I checked the cached version and sure enough, there it was. No mention in the current version of the edit. Here's the screen shots.

posted by delmoi at 7:07 PM on September 3, 2008

What are they chanting in response to Rudy's dismissive laugh about "community organizer"?
posted by Flunkie at 7:07 PM on September 3, 2008

Why is "community organizer" a punchline?
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 7:08 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Why is "community organizer" a punchline?

Because it has to be.
posted by Flunkie at 7:10 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Note to Rudy: don't recycle your own speeches without doublechecking first.......

Giuliani, who never served in the military, said McCain “has never run a city, never run a state, never run a government. He has never been responsible as a mayor for the safety and security of millions of people, and he has never run a law enforcement agency, which I have done.”
posted by Rumple at 7:11 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

They're chanting "ZERO! ZERO!"

I think this may turn out to be a misstep on their part. It's coming across as weirdly smug and petty, and the open contempt for community organizing strikes me as a mistake. It plays well to the Republican base, but I'm not sure how well it'll go down with independents.
posted by EarBucket at 7:11 PM on September 3, 2008

My favorite line was him saying we don't want big brother.

There is simply not enough vodka in the universe to erase the cognitive dissonance of hearing these venal, evil, emotional adolescents try to not only deny the last eight years, but their whole philosophy on the facts alone. Holy shit.
posted by Divine_Wino at 7:13 PM on September 3, 2008 [9 favorites]

Love how the RNC attendees erupt in laughter when Giuliani says Obama worked as a community organizer. I get it --- their politics is so degraded that it's acceptable to be openly contemptuous of working for the betterment of the community?

And what's with the bizarre giggling of Cindy McCain while the bloodthirsty crowd chants?
posted by jayder at 7:13 PM on September 3, 2008

I wonder how well this aggressively ridiculing speech will go over with people outside of the convention hall.
posted by Flunkie at 7:14 PM on September 3, 2008

For a minute there, I really thought he was going to pull it off and get the whole way through the speech without mentioning 9/11.
posted by Flunkie at 7:18 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Chanting "DRILL BABY DRILL." What a caricature of oil-sucking environment-wreckers. Seems like something I'd expect to see in a dystopian scifi movie casting Americans as howling monkes.
posted by lostburner at 7:19 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

I'm waiting for someone to knock the camera and it to show the "APPLAUSE" "SNEER" and "AWKWARD SILENCE" audience cue boxes.
posted by mrzarquon at 7:19 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

Is "community organizer" some kind of racial code phrase I'm not supposed to know about?
posted by yhbc at 7:20 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

If I were him, I wouldn't joke about the other VP pick "getting it in writing."
posted by Countess Elena at 7:20 PM on September 3, 2008

I'm only gleaning what's happening at the RNC based on these comments, and again, I'm really encouraged to see that they've decided to eschew any semblance of compassion for the under-$5 million crowd. "Community organizer" is an insult? Classy, guys. I hope one of you actually watching this remembers to screencap the Live Puppy Buffet afterwards.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 7:21 PM on September 3, 2008

Update on the thread record: batou_'s comment is comment #2687 in this thread, meaning the Palin thread has now passed the original "longboat" thread to become the second most commented on post in the history of MetaFilter.

Comment #2687 was posted when the post was 5 days, 11 hours, 47 minutes old.
posted by dw at 7:22 PM on September 3, 2008

God, they make me ill. No one during the DNC mocked McCain's POW history (that I can remember; correct me if I'm wrong), and yet somehow it's a-ok to openly scoff at the hard-assed work that Obama did, something that made a direct difference in a whole lot of people's lives. Raising the level of discourse, my ass.
posted by shiu mai baby at 7:22 PM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

Seems like something I'd expect to see in a dystopian scifi movie casting Americans as howling monkes.

The spectacle of the RNC is so weird, especially during this McCain speech. There's definitely a tone of rage and anger in the crowd, a tone I never detected in the DNC last week. This shit is scary.
posted by jayder at 7:23 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

The spectacle of the RNC is so weird, especially during this McCain speech.

I mean Giuliani speech.
posted by jayder at 7:25 PM on September 3, 2008

"A far as I'm concerned, before she became mayor Palin had more executive experience than the Democratic ticket combined." Did I hear that right? If so, what exec experience is he talking about?

If I were him, I wouldn't joke about the other VP pick "getting it in writing."

QFT.
posted by lostburner at 7:27 PM on September 3, 2008

dw: woot!
posted by cortex at 7:27 PM on September 3, 2008

Well, that was flatly repulsive.
posted by Flunkie at 7:28 PM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

They canceled the introductory video for Sarah Palin. She's on now.
posted by delmoi at 7:29 PM on September 3, 2008

You know what would have been classy of Giuliani? When the audience started laughing at Obama's community organizer work, for him to politely say, "We owe our respect to anyone who works hard in their community. But there are other problems with his resume."
posted by jayder at 7:30 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

There's Bristol and Levi in the crowd shots, baby bump clearly visible.

Seriously weird.
posted by delmoi at 7:31 PM on September 3, 2008

Guilliani's main complaint was that the DNC didn't mention terrorism and 9-11 enough.

Man. after watching some DNC speeches I was all feeling like the country might come together and we can move past some of the partisan fighting we've had over the past decade. But after seeing some of the RNC speeches, and getting ticked off and yelling at the radio and cspan, I don't think that's going to be the case, even if my guy does win.

The republican's are acting like they're being persecuted, and they fucking love it.
posted by garlic at 7:33 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

Is "community organizer" some kind of racial code phrase I'm not supposed to know about?

I get the feeling it is, that it's supposed to bring to mind Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.
posted by Countess Elena at 7:34 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

So this is what oatmeal would sound like if it could talk.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 7:41 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

That's odd - when she introduced her husband, she didn't seem to mention that he wants Alaska to secede from the United States of America.
posted by Flunkie at 7:42 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Is "community organizer" some kind of racial code phrase I'm not supposed to know about?

I get the feeling it is, that it's supposed to bring to mind Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.

nah, Malcolm X
posted by birdherder at 7:43 PM on September 3, 2008

The Republican National Convention! Now with More Smarmy!
posted by Flunkie at 7:43 PM on September 3, 2008

What's the pin on Palin's collar?
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 7:44 PM on September 3, 2008

I've been reading and faving this Tolkienesque thread for what seems like days, and I may have missed if anyone annotated this already: Palin lied about her son being deployed to Iraq on (of course) 9/11. Generally, disclosing the date of deployment is against Operational Security (OPSEC) and illegal.

Oh, and earlier with the nude picture, people were asking why the bars were there, and suggested it was to hide the pageant bikini. Here's the actual picture. (NSFW) I leave it to the forensics people to decide if the picture itself is real. (Also, I don't care. There's more naked pictures of me floating around than I could possibly explain. If you weren't photographed naked during your young and hot years, well...gosh, I'm sorry that you missed the party.)

Teen pregnancy: Well, that sort of thing happens, even in the best of families. However, most mothers would have the good grace to not drag their daughters into the middle of a political shit storm. That's my only issue with the pregnant teenager - that Palin was willing to toss her out like so much red meat to the vultures on all sides. I feel sorry for the kids involved, I can't imaging having my teenage peccadilloes trotted out for national review.

Palin is obviously a liar, a liar of such grand and magnificent capacity that she may even believe herself...and that's just spooky. That McCain would pick this trophy-veep, and try to pass it off as a breadcrumb thrown to the wimmen-folk is offensive and yes, sexist.

All vaginas are not interchangeable, and trying to pretend that Palin has the gravitas, courage, or experience necessary to pull Clinton supporters over to the Dark Side is ridiculous.

That ANY logical, capable, intelligent conservative would suck down enough koolaide to support this ticket is mind boggling.

That the "vaginas are evil and should be punished" voters support this ticket is no surprise. You could put Pol Pot up, standing on his mountains of bones, drinking virgin's blood from the skull of a dead hooker, and as long as he said he was anti-abortion, those people would vote for him.

What scares the fuck out of me is the possibility that not only has the Republican party been hijacked by insane theocrats, but that they stand a really good chance of hijacking the entire country again...because the theocrats have the most evil, most effective operatives.

And there's nowhere in the world that's safe once they're in power.
posted by dejah420 at 7:44 PM on September 3, 2008 [11 favorites]

Wow. Well she certainly brought that crowd of zombiefied RNC attendants alive.

So she's a friend of people with special needs kids? Does this mean she's going to fund social programs?

Oh, and did Huckabees story make no fucking sense or what?
posted by Artw at 7:44 PM on September 3, 2008

United Steelworkers statement on John McCain's VP Pick
“It is important to realize that while the governor's husband is a member of a union, this does not automatically qualify her for an on-the-job training program to become a heartbeat away from the presidency. And while her husband is one of 850,000 dues-paying members of the steelworkers union, it does nothing to absolve Sen. McCain of his long history of anti-union sentiment and anti-worker actions, including continuously pushing an anti-working family agenda that:

# Opposes giving workers the right to bargain collectively;
# Jeopardizes retirement security by privatizing social security;
# Further threatens job security by signing more job-stealing trade deals without regard to human rights and environmental standards, and
# Erodes the ability of working families to secure quality health care by taxing their employer-provided coverage for both active and retired workers.
posted by madamjujujive at 7:45 PM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

There's Bristol and Levi in the crowd shots, baby bump clearly visible.

Seriously weird.

Hmmm, well, I understand it seems weird, but when a man loves a woman very much... or they just want to get bizzy... sometimes babby is form in the tummy of the girl. That makes a bump. It's just a part of life called pregnancy.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 7:46 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Oh my God. She has been talking for what? 10 minutes? And she has said absolutely nothing of substance.
posted by gaspode at 7:47 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Levi looks like he would rather be anywhere else at all, except Iraq.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:48 PM on September 3, 2008

It sounds like she's catching up at a High School Reunion, not running for office.

"Yeah, and my husband's a snow machiner, don't you know... one a couple of championships a ways back, so he's got that goin' for him."
posted by empath at 7:48 PM on September 3, 2008

Heh - Josh Marshall on Rudy:

"With Rudy's speech, to riff on the brilliance of the immortal Molly Ivins, I think I preferred this speech in the original German."
posted by Flunkie at 7:49 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

dejah420 - the picture was debunked already on snopes.com. It's an old phony picutre previously passed of as being Julia Louis-Dreyfuss.
posted by yhbc at 7:51 PM on September 3, 2008

Do they think that people won't find out that the "Bridge to Nowhere" stuff is a brazen lie?
posted by Flunkie at 7:51 PM on September 3, 2008

Is she going to put Air Force One up on ebay?

And what's this about her being against the Bridge to Nowhere? How can she lie like that to the American public when it's be debunked?

She infuriates me.
posted by yeti at 7:52 PM on September 3, 2008

She shouldn't have repeated the lie about opposing the Bridge To Nowhere. That was a bad move.
posted by EarBucket at 7:52 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

the Live Puppy Buffet

That is ridiculous. I mean, really. A buffet? Obviously, waitstaff will serve the puppies on platters.
posted by the littlest brussels sprout at 7:52 PM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

And she has said absolutely nothing of substance.

Hard to do when you don't have any.

The whole vibe to this spectacle is amazing. They don't seem especially excited, until they're given an outlet to vent their contempt for Obama. Then they're pumped. I take that as a particularly encouraging sign, but with the image of a cornered badger in the back of my mind.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 7:53 PM on September 3, 2008

Heh. She just said that she has gas.

/9 year old.
posted by gaspode at 7:55 PM on September 3, 2008

Ivins originally said that about Pat Buchanan, and it's really something that Rudy is an even more convincing Nazi.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:57 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

If there's one thing I love to hear, it's contempt for due process.
posted by lumensimus at 7:58 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

That's it. That's it. They're just so godamned excited to hate. It's really more than I expected. I mean every person's got their faults, but they just want to hate so much.
posted by Science! at 7:58 PM on September 3, 2008 [8 favorites]

"and he's worried that someone won't read them their rights"

what the fuck. Foreign Policy by the writers of 24 apparently.
posted by garlic at 7:59 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

Is "community organizer" some kind of racial code phrase I'm not supposed to know about?

I think Obama used it first to describe what he did, but whatever.

I actually get the sense that it's hearkening back to Vaudeville blackface routines, where the dim picaninny characters would award themselves and each other important-sounding titles and roles as part of a sarcastic persona, or even the slave Big Sam from Gone With the Wind ("I's the foreman! I's the one that says it's quittin' time!"). Which is why the punchline, about having actual responsibilities, get read by this audience as a zinger.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 7:59 PM on September 3, 2008 [6 favorites]

What's the pin on Palin's collar?

It looks like an israeli flag to me.

Oh, and earlier with the nude picture, people were asking why the bars were there, and suggested it was to hide the pageant bikini. Here's the actual picture. (NSFW) I leave it to the forensics people to decide if the picture itself is real.

Uh, if you linked to the actual page it was hosted on, rather then the image, you'd see it was from a photoshop contest.
Oh my God. She has been talking for what? 10 minutes? And she has said absolutely nothing of substance. -- gaspode
What do you mean? She wants to drill the fuck out of Alaska!

Republicans really hate those greek columns.

Also, Palin seems to be opposed to "rights" for terrorists.

The $5 million + crowd around here really does seem worried about their taxes from going up.
posted by delmoi at 7:59 PM on September 3, 2008

Al-Queda is planning catastrophic attacks against America and he's [O'bama] worried about reading them their rights.

Fuck you Sarah Palin.

Also, she never uses his name. Just says our opponent. WTF?
posted by nooneyouknow at 8:01 PM on September 3, 2008

That's it. That's it. They're just so godamned excited to hate.

I think that contrast between the two conventions is going to be noticeable for independents. The DNC felt like a celebration; I know "hope" is a cliche, but it had a genuinely upbeat vibe. This feels ugly and mean.
posted by EarBucket at 8:01 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Wow, these people are nasty.
posted by Flunkie at 8:02 PM on September 3, 2008

MATCH POINT SERENA
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 8:02 PM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

POW!

She is a good speaker though.
posted by delmoi at 8:04 PM on September 3, 2008

I think she's out running the teleprompter...
posted by empath at 8:05 PM on September 3, 2008

She mentioned "community organizer" again and got more Boos.
posted by yeti at 8:05 PM on September 3, 2008

A Noun, a Verb and POW
posted by empath at 8:06 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

delmoi: "What's the pin on Palin's collar?
It looks like an israeli flag to me.

Yeah, she's worn it before. I don't have a problem with not wearing an American flag anytime anyplace, but I do have a problem with wearing the flag of any other nation while seeking the second highest elected position in my country.
posted by Science! at 8:06 PM on September 3, 2008 [7 favorites]

That was "boo-urns".
posted by cortex at 8:08 PM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

Palin's speech: hectoring, tedious, lightweight, and overly scripted. The bemused squinting when questioning Obama's qualifications seems like especially bad acting.

Mary McDonnell as Laura Roslin comes across as more presidential than this ex-Mayor of Wasilla.
posted by orthogonality at 8:08 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

Thank god THAT'S over, what a disaster. Either I'm completely out of touch with America or the GOP won't get a bump out of this. What a mean-spirited, pessimistic, small minded bunch of lunatics.
posted by empath at 8:09 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

"Torturous interrogations"

I know it's been tough for the republicans to describe what happened to John McCain without using the "T" word. Impressive.
posted by delmoi at 8:09 PM on September 3, 2008

Sarah Palin: Do. Not. Want.
posted by clearly at 8:09 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Condescendingly indecent.
posted by Flunkie at 8:10 PM on September 3, 2008

She's actually doing an excellent job. She's telling the base exactly what they want to hear while presenting an image a lot of people are going to like. She likes to fight and she can lie without flinching.

If the Democrats think this is going to be a cakewalk, they need to think again. Biden is going to have a tough debate. Hell, McCain is going to have a hell of a time following that performance tomorrow.

And Obama is going to need Hillary Clinton's help to win this election.
posted by homunculus at 8:11 PM on September 3, 2008 [13 favorites]

I liked the part where she stopped talking.
posted by mazola at 8:12 PM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

"Don't you think we made the right choice for the vice president of the United States?"

No John McCain, I do not.
posted by delmoi at 8:12 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

I didn't even watch it, I'm just going on the descriptions here - but wasn't it the Democratic convention that was supposed to seem like the Nuremberg rally?
posted by yhbc at 8:12 PM on September 3, 2008

"People who like this sort of thing will find it the sort of thing they like" -- Keith Olberman.
posted by delmoi at 8:13 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

KO: "People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like."
posted by empath at 8:13 PM on September 3, 2008

Olbermann quotes Lincoln:

"People who like this sort of thing will find this the sort of thing they like."
posted by Flunkie at 8:13 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

What's the pin on Palin's collar?

It looks like an israeli flag to me.

You can also find an Israeli flag in her office visible over her left shoulder in the Sarah Palin on Alaska HDTV video. I cannot identify the lapel pin she is wearing in those photos from the same day. Anyone recognize it?
posted by peeedro at 8:14 PM on September 3, 2008

I think that contrast between the two conventions is going to be noticeable for independents. The DNC felt like a celebration; I know "hope" is a cliche, but it had a genuinely upbeat vibe. This feels ugly and mean.

A million times, yes. Just compare tonight's hatefest to 1984's RNC. The cheers, the air horns, the joy! The RNC tonight is downright scary. They're so driven by defensive anger that no one there seems to notice that Palin is repeating her already refuted lies on national fucking television. Which is great: for all their condescension, contempt and rage, I think it will work against them in alienating vast swaths of the nation, making them flee in droves to the brighter side of the field. Yoda would totally use this shit as an allegory.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:15 PM on September 3, 2008

What the heck is this? It's like it wasn't patriotic enough to do one or the other, so they have to megapatriotize it by doing both at the same time? Get outta here!
posted by cashman at 8:18 PM on September 3, 2008

Holy cow. I think I'm wrong about the flag pin. There's no horizontal blue bars like the Israeli flag. I think it's a single star to symbolize the one child she has enlisted in the armed forces. I'm cool with that. My bad.
posted by Science! at 8:18 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

McCain's Voice Mail to Palin Leaked to Press (Listen)
posted by nickyskye at 8:18 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

MSNBC called her out on the bridge to nowhere immediately after the speech. Another pundit from the floor pointed out "drill baby drill" right away.
posted by lostburner at 8:18 PM on September 3, 2008

That, or America will turn out to dig lies and hate.
posted by Artw at 8:19 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Mitt Romney: Crazy, out-of-touch speech from, what 1992?

Huckabee: A bit better, nice and respectful. Weird desk story, though.

Guiliani: Oh crap, these guys have figured out an effective way to mock Obama.

Palin: Oh crap oh crap oh crap
posted by designbot at 8:19 PM on September 3, 2008

I listened to the the 2004 RNC Convention just so I could keep up with what was going on. While I disagreed with most of what I heard I could at least respect the (generally) well-written speeches. The crowd seemed lively and responsive.

This convention has been awful. The endless repetition of "9/11! Nevar Forget" got old in 2004, but the endless parade of Viet Nam-era torture porn is just repulsive. As far as I can tell every single speaker has retold the same Hanoi Hilton story without variation. And, until about two hours ago, the crowd was nearly unresponsive. The crowd's gotten worked up since Rudy and Mitt, but before that the audience was dead enough that I seriously wondered if NPR was screwing with the levels during Fred Thompson's speech.
posted by lekvar at 8:19 PM on September 3, 2008

Keith Olberman

Yah, shocking that the guy who took the time to count how many times Fred Thompson coughed during his speech, would have something dismissive prepared to say about Palin's speech.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 8:20 PM on September 3, 2008

McCain's Voice Mail to Palin Leaked to Press (Listen)

Ah, it's fake. I got excited there for a second.
posted by cashman at 8:21 PM on September 3, 2008

Hey, how about that, this week's the 70th anniversary of Kristallnacht. Go figure.
posted by Flunkie at 8:22 PM on September 3, 2008

She might get the George W. Bush lowered expectations memorial media pass.
posted by drezdn at 8:22 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

I fear she just may have snatched the religious right vote from the Obama camp.
posted by mazola at 8:23 PM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

Man, I hate this "contrast" euphemism to describe attacks.
posted by delmoi at 8:25 PM on September 3, 2008

McCain Camp Battles National Enquirer Over Alleged Palin Affair

“John McCain's presidential campaign is threatening a lawsuit against the National Enquirer over a print edition story the tabloid ran today alleging that Gov. Sarah Palin has had an extramarital affair with her husband's business partner.

The allegation would normally be dismissed by political observers as the random musings of a supermarket tabloid -- indeed, the McCain campaign said as much in its statements on Wednesday -- except that the paper has built up a reservoir of legitimacy following its earlier reporting on the John Edwards affair.

In a statement to the Huffington Post, a spokesman for the paper, who promised a larger report next week, tapped into that pool of quasi-respect.

‘The National Enquirer's coverage of a vicious war within Sarah Palin's extended family includes several newsworthy revelations, including the resulting incredible charge of an affair plus details of family strife when the Governor's daughter revealed her pregnancy. Following our John Edwards' exclusives, our political reporting has obviously proven to be more detail-oriented than the McCain campaign's vetting process. Despite the McCain camp's attempts to control press coverage they find unfavorable, The Enquirer will continue to pursue news on both sides of the political spectrum.’

Clearly, this is a touchy matter. Already, rumors that Palin's youngest son was actually the son of her daughter were batted down. And the McCain campaign has strenuously insisted that the current crop of insinuations is not only false but also potentially libelous.

‘The smearing of the Palin family must end. The allegations contained on the cover of the National Enquirer insinuating that Gov. Palin had an extramarital affair are categorically false. It is a vicious lie,’ said McCain senior adviser Steve Schmidt. ‘The efforts of the media and tabloids to destroy this fine and accomplished public servant are a disgrace. The American people will reject it.’

But the Edwards reporting complicates matters. Just one month ago, conservatives were bemoaning the fact that no major media outlets had the temerity to follow the politically and personally sensitive rumors about the former North Carolina senator's infidelities. Jonah Goldberg, for example, wrote on the National Review's the Corner in later July that:

‘Whatever the merits of the whole Edwards love child story, are we really supposed to believe that one of America's most famous trial lawyers wouldn't sue a publication that printed defamatory and slanderous lies about him? Also, it's worth pointing out that while the Enquirer may or may not be scrupulous in its choice of stories -- that's in the eye of the beholder -- it is pretty scrupulous about its facts. They win lawsuits. They've broken a host of stories the MSM guys couldn't.’

Does the MSM now have an obligation to pursue this rumor, however touchy, or at least ask questions?

‘The ‘success’ with Edwards no doubt will give them some more credibility, although we should remember that some of the allegations in their ‘lovechild’ stories have been far from proven (although also far from disproven),’ wrote Greg Mitchell, editor of Editor and Publisher Magazine.
‘Some of their Palin revelations may be quickly firmed up, prove bogus or more likely rest somewhere in-between for awhile. But what will be interesting is whether the Republicans and conservatives and MSM critics who jumped on the MSM and liberals for not quickly embracing the Enquirer's Edwards work will now pooh-pooh the Enquirer when it comes to THIS candidate....:’

And yet, at the same time, the Enquirer's story may be something of a break for the McCain campaign, which has come under siege for the Palin pick. If the Arizona Senator and his aides are able to effectively portray attacks on the Palin as the product of smear, sleaze and innuendo, it clouds those that are more legitimate. And with new attack lines opening up against Palin seemingly every hour, Democrats may be even more hesitant about straying into the tawdry.”

posted by ericb at 8:27 PM on September 3, 2008

Palin....I think we'll keep her.
----------------------------------------------------------------

Funny-this evening seemed quite joyous to me. Meanwhile people keep texting my husband messages of sheer joy and glee.

Either I'm completely out of touch with America or the GOP won't get a bump out of this.

Out of touch.

One of the NC delegates just called my hubby- they are talking right now....

I have NEVER EVER seen this level of excitement in a political race. EVER.

Those of you who bet on her getting kicked off the ticket? You have my sincere sympathy.

(For those of you who felt the evening was creepy? Yeah, that's how we feel when your people are having their convention. It's okay, we understand.)

PS-most adorable shot of the night? Trig's six year old sister licking her hand and smoothing down her baby brother's hair. That is a nonpartisan Cute Overload moment.
posted by konolia at 8:29 PM on September 3, 2008

This whole convention makes me want to punch a republican in the face. The Democrats went out of their way not to question McCain's character. What a dickhead, classless move to go belittle and condescend to Obama this way. All it's going to do is get us more fired up to take those fuckers out. There will not be a Florida 2000 or an Ohio 2004 this year.
posted by empath at 8:30 PM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

"...and she can lie without flinching."

This.

I need to read the transcript, and I'll prove it. I'm sure many of you will be doing the same thing.
posted by clearly at 8:31 PM on September 3, 2008

Palin's speech was successful, in that it really pissed me off. The 'executive experience' mantra just drives me crazy.

She does sound a little bit like Tour Guide Barbie.
posted by lukemeister at 8:31 PM on September 3, 2008

Konolia, I would suggest to you that those people were never going to vote for Obama. You are living in a tiny, shrinking bubble. As excited as y'all are to vote for another bible thumping idiot, you only get to vote once, and you only add up to 35-40% of the electorate.
posted by empath at 8:32 PM on September 3, 2008 [8 favorites]

PS-most adorable shot of the night? Trig's six year old sister licking her hand and smoothing down her baby brother's hair. That is a nonpartisan Cute Overload moment.

Seriously, I think my ovaries exploded.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:32 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Ericb, come on, I don't have to tell you that the National Enquirer is a bastion of the elite.
posted by NortonDC at 8:33 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

I have NEVER EVER seen this level of excitement in a political race. EVER.

Um, did you watch it with the sound off? Did you hear what they were getting excited about? That was about the most hate-filled, divisive speech I've seen. I mean, good that everybody enjoyed it, but if this represents you, you're fucking creepy.
posted by troybob at 8:33 PM on September 3, 2008 [21 favorites]

I fear she just may have snatched the religious right vote from the Obama camp.

Yes. Read that again.

To those who think this has no appeal, or that anyone who likes it is stupid, or a Nazi, or whatever, you really need to get out of the echo-chamber. I say this as a still-undecided independent, not trying to be a smartass.

If you support Obama, and want to help him win, you can not ignore the conservative vote, and you must understand why Palin's speech will be seen a home run by Republicans and conservatives. Dismissing those people, or lazily labeling them as stupid rednecks, and underestimating their intelligence or the strength of their convictions will guarantee a Republican White House, not to mention continuing your own misunderstanding and (for some) your own prejudice.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 8:33 PM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

I've been reading this thread for five days, I feel like I oughta say something. I guess I'll go with: Yeah! What empath said! That comment actually sums up my feelings pretty well. I hope you're right about the getting fired up part.
posted by marxchivist at 8:34 PM on September 3, 2008

This is great analysis of the hate-filled Giuliani speech by Joshua Marshall at Talking Points Memo:

A few other thoughts. You'll notice that Rudy Giuliani apparently ran too long and they had to drop the Palin mini-movie that was supposed to introduce her speech. Normally people get fired for goofs like that. They didn't want Rudy's blood and iron speech the day after Gustav so they bumped it until tonight. Big mistake. He positively dripped with a kind of curdled anger, the origin of which is difficult to grasp. But he actually seemed to get angrier and angrier as the speech progressed -- off chopping his hands around, baring his teeth. I know the people in the hall loved it. But I think a lot of people will see it as whacked. Rancid. Curdled. Palin's speech ended up being much more partisan than I expected. But that was added to by the fact that she had to start her speech while the auditorium was still awash in the teeth-gnashing froth ginned up by Rudy's speech. I've seen political events that I totally got and others that I thought I got but was totally wrong about. So who knows? But take this as a sign that the McCain campaign has abandoned an effort to compete for swing voters and go back to the base energizing strategy that worked for President Bush in 2004. The numbers make that look like a tough proposition. But I think a few months from now, everyone will agree this was a mistake.

posted by jayder at 8:36 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

I (and every other woman on this thread) can tell you categorically just why it is a lie that Palin had an affair.

There is no freaking way the woman had time!
posted by konolia at 8:36 PM on September 3, 2008

Either I'm completely out of touch with America or the GOP won't get a bump out of this.
Out of touch.-- Konolia

Well how would you know? Isn't it possible that you're the one out of touch? Or are you talking about the "AMERICA" which Sarah Palin "IS" which apparently means people like you and no one else.

I have NEVER EVER seen this level of excitement in a political race. EVER. -- Konolia

Obviously you don't know too many Obama supporters.
posted by delmoi at 8:37 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Wow. Republican Party, Party of Hate.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:38 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Obviously you don't know too many Obama supporters.

Must have missed 80,000 people holding back tears last week. I've seen people SOBBING over Obama speeches. I don't think she compares.
posted by empath at 8:39 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Wait, The Palindrome is now > 9622v2?

Congrats, guys, just congrats.

*sheds a tiara*
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 8:39 PM on September 3, 2008

For those of you who felt the evening was creepy? Yeah, that's how we feel when your people are having their convention. It's okay, we understand.

I don't feel it was (merely) "creepy". I feel that it was fundamentally based on hatred.

Is that the way you felt during the DNC?
posted by Flunkie at 8:39 PM on September 3, 2008 [6 favorites]

I like to think that the software that changes votes is called "Silent Majority."
posted by drezdn at 8:40 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

"I have NEVER EVER seen this level of excitement in a political race. EVER."

This isn't the Obama Speech thread, please stay on topic.
posted by clearly at 8:43 PM on September 3, 2008

I need to read the transcript, and I'll prove it. I'm sure many of you will be doing the same thing.

The Daily Show staff has already started:

From Sarah Palin's speech:

This [Obama] is a man who can give an entire speech about the wars America is fighting, and never use the word "victory" except when he's talking about his own campaign.

That one didn't seem like much of a challenge. From Obama's July 15th Speech on Iraq:

In fact, true success in Iraq - victory in Iraq - will not take place in a surrender ceremony where an enemy lays down their arms.

And later in the same speech:

I want Iraqis to take responsibility for their own future, and to reach the political accommodation necessary for long-term stability. That's victory.
posted by nooneyouknow at 8:43 PM on September 3, 2008

I have NEVER EVER seen this level of excitement in a political race. EVER.

Um, did you watch it with the sound off? Did you hear what they were getting excited about? That was about the most hate-filled, divisive speech I've seen. I mean, good that everybody enjoyed it, but if this represents you, you're fucking creepy.

I am referring to the people I know here, in meat space, to include my parents, who don't go to church and are probably registered Democrat.

I went to a prayer meeting earlier at church- people who I have never known to have a shred of interest in politics are excited. They couldn't wait for Palin's speech tonight.

I am interested on how you all are calling it hate filled. I'd call it being emphatic.
posted by konolia at 8:44 PM on September 3, 2008

Don't know if this has been posted, but it's fascinating: A letter from someone who has known Sarah Palin since 1992.
posted by zardoz at 8:44 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

That would be so cool.
posted by Science! at 8:45 PM on September 3, 2008

There is no freaking way the woman had time! [for an affair]

She runs a mile every day, I think she could probably substitute some alternative fitness activities every once in a while.
posted by delmoi at 8:46 PM on September 3, 2008

Sarah Palin Alaska Fur Bunny Pancake Breakfast Art

OK, who here wants pancakes?

...on the ~~bunny's~~ nominee's head!
posted by mwhybark at 8:47 PM on September 3, 2008

I'd call it being emphatic.

Empathic with a hateful audience.
posted by Artw at 8:47 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

This race really reminds me of 2000 but in reverse. The Republicans had a candidate they had seemed to fall in love with while many Democrats weren't excited about Gore but loathed Bush. Now, many Democrats have a candidate to get excited about, while the most the Republicans have to get excited about is a VP choice from left field and despising the popularity of the Democratic candidate.
posted by drezdn at 8:48 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

I am interested on how you all are calling it hate filled. I'd call it being emphatic.

What was that line about Obama being a pussy because he was interesting that making sure terrorists were "read their rights"?
posted by delmoi at 8:49 PM on September 3, 2008

Had Obama given a speech with as nasty a tone as this, I wouldn't be voting.
posted by troybob at 8:51 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

I don't feel it was (merely) "creepy". I feel that it was fundamentally based on hatred.

That's the thing -- over in the Wonkette Palin speech liveblog post, someone commented (paraphrased): "What? Is 'community organizer' code word for 'negro' now?" It's kind of painful to watch the pure, unadulterated Hate-orade pouring out of these people. If thousands of North Slope oil workers had lost their jobs, and Palin had helped them get back to work/etc, she'd be hailed as a miracleworker. Obama actually it, and so he's a dick?

On what planet does that make sense? Seriously.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 8:51 PM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

In the transcript of the Palin speech on the Times website, someone had a sense of humor:

we're going to lay more pipelines ... build more new-clear plants ...

Terrorist states are seeking new-clear weapons without delay ...

Does this come from her speaking notes, which would include pronunciation guides, or is it from some automated voice-to-text service? Or is someone just being catty?
posted by Forktine at 8:51 PM on September 3, 2008

I'd call it being emphatic.

Emphatically mean spirited, sure. Unless it's been cool from some time now to actually boo someone when they're called a "community organizer", and I just didn't get the memo.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:52 PM on September 3, 2008

Actually, I think she voted to keep bars open until 5AM when she was on the Wasilla City Council.

I'm getting the idea that our lady likes to drink

February 15, 2008 - 9:09pm | Skeptical1
Why is this minor injury crash (among many in the Irondog this year) newsworthy when you failed to even mention in ADN coverage of the race last year that Palin/Davis were caught cheating in Nome, working off the clock on their machines, and given a controversial slap-on-the-wrist 10 minute penalty for the cheating when many Irondog fans thought the penalty should have been 1-10 hours. That incident was newsworthy-- race followers are still talking about it this year.

February 17, 2008 - 12:10pm | cjdraveling
Oh, Plllleeeezzzz....his wifey is the governor and at that time high up with the politicians. They wouldn't want the governor's skeletons to be let out of the closet....she was quite the snowmachine drunk on their weekends at the Forks Roadhouse in Peters Creek too. Guess that makes a good choice for election of officer of some sort in the political realm! There is sooooo much publicity and advertisements on the name Palin, it makes me want to barf!!! There are others in this world too besides Sara and Todd!!!

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:54 PM on September 3, 2008

If you support Obama, and want to help him win, you can not ignore the conservative vote, and you must understand why Palin's speech will be seen a home run by Republicans and conservatives. Dismissing those people, or lazily labeling them as stupid rednecks, and underestimating their intelligence or the strength of their convictions will guarantee a Republican White House, not to mention continuing your own misunderstanding and (for some) your own prejudice.

Don't base your vote on random opinions you hear on the street, here, wherever. Nobody here is running. Nobody here is important enough to warrant that sort of chiding. I can cherry pick awful, repulsive people on both sides. What's the point of that?

Listen to what the candidates say, and pay attention to what they do, and what they've done. Voting on some perceived offense from some random stranger who says they support or don't support so-and-so is a petty exercise and doesn't advance the discussion.
posted by krinklyfig at 8:54 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

The sheer hatred of Christians for everyone else is really pretty horrible. Send me to hell if heaven is populated with people like that.
posted by maxwelton at 8:55 PM on September 3, 2008 [10 favorites]

Little hands-on
supervisory or managerial experience; needed help of a city
administrator to run town of about 5,000.

At least Obama didn't need a Community Organizing administrator.
posted by drezdn at 8:58 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Re the "community organizer" digs-my take on that is they were kicking back at Obama's camp for saying she had little experience. The Party was making the point tonight that they felt that Obama's community organizer experience was in no way equivalent to an executive position such as mayor or governor.

The bald truth is that neither Obama nor Biden nor McCain himself have actually held an actual executive governmental position. That is a statement of fact.

The fact that the Left came out so strong and so hard against Palin from minute one of her selection has pretty much guaranteed that this campaign will be anything but a genteel tea party. Say what you will about Palin, she did not get where she is by being meek and softspoken. I have a feeling that McCain did pick her to be a "pit bull in lipstick" so he can come out and be good cop to her bad cop. It will be interesting to compare the tone of his upcoming speech with hers.
posted by konolia at 8:58 PM on September 3, 2008

I'd call it being emphatic.

I think the word you were reaching for is shrill.

And yeah, it worked in a room of psyched up supporters with programmed signage (the 'hockey moms' thing played as totally fake), but Obama knows how to make a speech that can be inspiring without demeaning anyone--particularly himself. They seemed to confuse 'triumphant' with 'Triumph the Insult Comic Dog'.
posted by troybob at 9:01 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

No one cares about his speech. Not even the Republicans care about his speech.
posted by Artw at 9:02 PM on September 3, 2008

Community Organizing: It's Not Just for Black People!
posted by lukemeister at 9:02 PM on September 3, 2008

Re the "community organizer" digs-my take on that is they were kicking back at Obama's camp for saying she had little experience. The Party was making the point tonight that they felt that Obama's community organizer experience was in no way equivalent to an executive position such as mayor or governor.

No one is saying that. Obama's qualifications for president is his time in the state senate (representing more people the Palin as the mayor of Wasilia, by the way) and his time in U.S, senate, as well as the fact (and this is important) that he won the Democratic Nomination.

Community Organizing isn't his only qualification for president, he's done a lot of stuff after that.
posted by delmoi at 9:03 PM on September 3, 2008

This also bears repeating:

"While Sarah was Mayor of Wasilla she tried to fire our highly respected City Librarian because the Librarian refused to consider removing from the library some books that Sarah wanted removed. City residents rallied to the defense of the City Librarian and against Palin’s attempt at out-and-out censorship, so Palin backed down and withdrew her termination letter. People who fought her attempt to oust the Librarian are on her enemies list to this day."

I've also seen this documented elsewhere. That, alone, guarantees I never vote for her.
posted by krinklyfig at 9:03 PM on September 3, 2008

nooneyouknow: In her defense, she did say a speech -- not that he'd never made a speech that contained the words victory and Iraq. You should prove the black swan, not the many white.
posted by AwkwardPause at 9:04 PM on September 3, 2008

Huh, the representative from Arizona just called McCain a "native son." In fact, McCain was born in Panama.
posted by delmoi at 9:04 PM on September 3, 2008

I watched the Palin speech and couldn't shake the thought that she is the living embodiment of Helen Lovejoy: using the pretext of being a "good Christian" as cover for mean-spirited behavior. It doesn't matter what she does, because she thinks she's right. In that sense, Sarah Palin is no different than the current crop of Republicans.

The body language between McCain and Palin was fascinating, though- looks to me like they can't stand each other.
posted by ambrosia at 9:04 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

No one is saying that. Obama's qualifications for president is his time in the state senate (representing more people the Palin as the mayor of Wasilia, by the way) and his time in U.S, senate, as well as the fact (and this is important) that he won the Democratic Nomination.

None of which is EXECUTIVE experience. He wasn't planning budgets, etc when he was in the Senate.

(BTW, it is obvious you didn't listen to the speech tonight given by the governor of Hawaii who explained the differences in great detail.)
posted by konolia at 9:06 PM on September 3, 2008

Community Organizing isn't his only qualification for president, he's done a lot of stuff after that.

Sure, but is Illinois next to Mother Russia? I don't think so ... comrade.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:06 PM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

Huh, the representative from Arizona just called McCain a "native son." In fact, McCain was born in Panama.

And in fact only moved to Arizona when he was about 45 years old.
posted by Flunkie at 9:08 PM on September 3, 2008

No one during the DNC mocked McCain's POW history

I'm sure the Republicans are stocking up on purple heart Band-Aids for tomorrow's speech.

For those of you who felt the evening was creepy? Yeah, that's how we feel when your people are having their convention. It's okay, we understand.

You are a shitty Christian.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:09 PM on September 3, 2008 [17 favorites]

If "executive" experience is so important then why isn't she on the top of the ticket? Or, why isn't someone like Rudy on the ticket? He was the mayor of a city a population more than ten times that of the state of Alaska. His police department even works internationally.

It's a canard, trying to set the finish line in such a way that only Palin can finish first.
posted by drezdn at 9:10 PM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

He wasn't planning budgets, etc when he was in the Senate.

What?

When you picture a Senate, what exactly do you see going on in there? Chimps riding unicycles?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:10 PM on September 3, 2008 [33 favorites]

Ok, konolia, I see where you're coming from, but I still don't buy it. No one's trotting out her commercial fishing experience, car wash ownership, or lack of a job for a few years and saying bad things about that. We're judging her based on her actions in office, actions that don't seem to support her image as Mavericke Madame Power to the People. It's really easy to fire off the "I sold the plane on eBay" crack for a laugh, and not so easy to defend going after the town librarian, or attempting to get city officials to resign as a loyalty test, or hiring a lobbyist to bring home some sweet Washington DC bucks, or getting investigated for her actions in office, or or or or.

Attacking Obama for holding a job that helped people who were out of work due to plant closings (hey! would you rather they went on welfare?) isn't fair game, it just comes off as mean.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 9:11 PM on September 3, 2008 [7 favorites]

None of which is EXECUTIVE experience. He wasn't planning budgets, etc when he was in the Senate.

Neither was John McCain. I'm not really sure why "executive" experience has suddenly become the be-all and end-all.

Furthermore, when Palin was planning budgets, she took her town of 5,000 people or so from breakeven to about twenty million dollars in debt.

After that, the town hired an administrator to do the actual, you know, executive stuff.
posted by Flunkie at 9:12 PM on September 3, 2008 [11 favorites]

If "executive" experience is so important then why isn't she on the top of the ticket? Or, why isn't someone like Rudy on the ticket? He was the mayor of a city a population more than ten times that of the state of Alaska. His police department even works internationally.

It is important insofar as the Dems are saying she is totally unqualified, which is odd coming from a party that nominated Obama, who has less experience actually governing than she does.
posted by konolia at 9:13 PM on September 3, 2008

The bald truth is that neither Obama nor Biden nor McCain himself have actually held an actual executive governmental position. That is a statement of fact.

True, but is an executive as governor of Alaska with a population a fraction the size of, say, Obama's Illinois state senate seat really comparable? Those population numbers matter. Governing a state awash in oil money isn't really the same as being beholden to a much more populous and complex and less well-funded constituency.

Say what you will about Palin, she did not get where she is by being meek and softspoken.

But where is that, politically speaking? On the stage of global politics, it's frankly not very lofty. And that is a statement of fact.
posted by zardoz at 9:14 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

He wasn't planning budgets, etc when he was in the Senate.

According to this neither did Palin. Though Obama did demonstrated his abilities in running organizations with the Harvard Law Review and his campaign which managed to take down the New York Yankees (circa '99-01) of campaigns.
posted by drezdn at 9:14 PM on September 3, 2008

George Stephanopolos just gave Palin's speech an A.
posted by konolia at 9:15 PM on September 3, 2008

None of which is EXECUTIVE experience. He wasn't planning budgets, etc when he was in the Senate.

Yeah, I guess that campaign he's been running for months has unlimited funds and robotic personnel, considering none of it needed management.
posted by troybob at 9:15 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

None of which is EXECUTIVE experience. He wasn't planning budgets, etc when he was in the Senate.
McCain doesn't have any of that of that kind of experience either. And by the way, the Obama campaign's monthly budget is larger then Wasilla's annual budget. AND Sarah had a city manager.

And look, I don't seriously think you can compare being the mayor of a city of 8,000 and being the president of the united states in anyway, just because they are both "executive" experiance, I mean come on. Obama will have access to the best minds in the country. His major task will be finding those people, processing their advice and managing their egos. He's excelent campaign, his time as the president of the Harvard law review illustrates he's capable of doing this really well.

On the other hand, Sarah's tenure as the mayor of Wasilla shows that she's not good at that at all. She was nearly recalled when she tried to fire a librarian for refusing to ban books, she fired a police chief when he pestered her campaign contributors (bar owners).

Her short time as governor has been marked by scandal. Seriously, Palin has been governor less time then McCain has been running
(BTW, it is obvious you didn't listen to the speech tonight given by the governor of Hawaii who explained the differences in great detail.)
Of course not, it wasn't even broadcast on MSNBC. Who listens to that and why would I care what the governor of Hawaii thinks?
posted by delmoi at 9:18 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

True, but is an executive as governor of Alaska with a population a fraction the size of, say, Obama's Illinois state senate seat really comparable?

Apples and oranges. The executive branch and the legislative branch of a governing body are two different types of jobs.
posted by konolia at 9:19 PM on September 3, 2008

Governing a state awash in oil money isn't really the same as being beholden to a much more populous and complex and less well-funded constituency.

Quoted for truth. There are 16 cities alone in the U.S. that are bigger than the state of Alaska, and none of them can fall back on oil money to balance their budgets.
posted by drezdn at 9:20 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

The last two presidents without executive experience before they were elected were Abraham Lincoln and JFK.
posted by lukemeister at 9:20 PM on September 3, 2008 [6 favorites]

And it's not me saying Obama wouldn't know how to be president. I am saying that it is wrong for the Democrats to claim Palin is less qualified than he. It is a ridiculous argument and it's time to drop it.
posted by konolia at 9:21 PM on September 3, 2008

Apples and oranges. The executive branch and the legislative branch of a governing body are two different types of jobs.

This is obviously very, very important to you, and to the people in that convention hall.

Why was it not important six days ago?
posted by Flunkie at 9:22 PM on September 3, 2008 [7 favorites]

McCain Memo: 'Respectful Campaign':

Throughout his life John McCain has held himself to the highest standards and he will continue to run a respectful campaign based on the issues.

posted by kirkaracha at 9:22 PM on September 3, 2008

Seriously, though, konolia:

By you're logic, you realized you're also saying that McCain doesn't have the 'executive experience' needed, correct? What do you say to that?
posted by defenestration at 9:22 PM on September 3, 2008

your*
posted by defenestration at 9:22 PM on September 3, 2008

The sheer hatred of Christians for everyone else is really pretty horrible. Send me to hell if heaven is populated with people like that.

Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do. [Luke 23:24]
posted by Balonious Assault at 9:22 PM on September 3, 2008

I don't know, konolia, you might should have stopped when you were ahead here with the pity vote; at this point it seems you're pretty much just sniffing your own ass.
posted by troybob at 9:24 PM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

And in fact only moved to Arizona when he was about 45 years old.

In his defense, that was 715 years ago.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:24 PM on September 3, 2008 [8 favorites]

The bald truth is that neither Obama nor Biden nor McCain himself have actually held an actual executive governmental position.

No. That's right. Obama hasn't been the C.E.O. of the most successful campaign organization in U.S. history -- raising more money, managing an effective P.R. and marketing campaign and taking advantage of all technologies ("old" and "new") availabe to communicate his messages...and energize millions of Americans disgusted with the status quo. Qualities and characteristics valued by private and public groups/governments/corporations/schools/colleges/universities. Such experience pales in comparison to Palin's managerial experience over small-town; small-state politically-grudged "executive experience."
posted by ericb at 9:24 PM on September 3, 2008 [6 favorites]

George Stephanopolos just gave Palin's speech an A.

Ladies and gentlemen, Sarah Palin read a speech that she did not write, from a teleprompter. She is now qualified to run the most powerful country on the face of the earth.

Nevermind that she literally was in alaska screwing people over, banning books, being involved in fraud, mismanaging state agencies and what not. Forget that she lied numerous times in the speech after lying during her announcement speech. Don't recall that she refuses to step forward and confront a single one or all of these very substantive, non-sexist questions about her miscreancy, failed policies, tons of dollars in earmarks, deficit-creating terms as mayor, lying about everything from support of policies to her background to her documented, confirmed seccessionist party husband.

Ignore all of that and look over here, where a pundit gave her speech an A. War is Peace. Ignorance is Strength. Sarah is Qualified.
posted by cashman at 9:24 PM on September 3, 2008 [14 favorites]

True, but is an executive as governor of Alaska with a population a fraction the size of, say, Obama's Illinois state senate seat really comparable?

Alaska has 600,000 people, and Illinois has 12 million people and 59 senate seats, so I'm assuming that state senate districts have about 200,000 people each. 1/3rd the size of Alaska, and 25 times the size of Wasilla.
posted by delmoi at 9:25 PM on September 3, 2008

One of the big roles of the vice president is meeting with foreign dignitaries, a role that doesn't seem suited for someone who didn't get their first passport until last year.

(Unrelated fun fact: If the Alaska National Guard has 4,000 troops, the NYPD is nearly 10 times as big as the Alaska National Guard with more than 37,000 employees)
posted by drezdn at 9:25 PM on September 3, 2008

I (and every other woman on this thread) can tell you categorically just why it is a lie that Palin had an affair.

There is no freaking way the woman had time!

That is incredibly insensitive, and pretty damn un-Christian too.

I was referencing an essay I read recently (probably in reference to the Edwards scandal but I'm not sure) asking the question why it always seemed that male politicians were the ones who got tripped up in scandals re affairs and not female politicians. The article, with tone half tongue in cheek was referencing the fact that women are too dang busy with the job/family balance to have free time for much of anything, much less an affair.

I did fail to get the memo that a Christian was not allowed a sense of humor....
posted by konolia at 9:26 PM on September 3, 2008

My goodness that baby can sleep through anything. I did get a little concerned when they were passing him around like an accessory. He is what-- 5 months old? I personally would have left him with a baby sitter, but she is obviously verrrrrrry proud of her kids and wanted to show them off. And poor Levi. He looked like guy having to face the music.

I snorted at the "advocate for special needs children." The currant compassionate conservative occupying the White House has probably ensured that they need an advocate. I hope she doesn't "advocate" for them in the same way she does for pregnant teenagers.

The entire time I was watching her, I kept doing a gut check. "Are you sure it isn't just jealousy?" "Are you sure it isn't just because she is a woman?" Nope. I flat out hate her. I look at her and see a conniving liar who has stumbled into politics and used every trick in the book to get ahead. I don't think she has the first idea of how to serve What exactly was it that she did as Mayor? I mean besides firing everyone, raising taxes, and spending millions of dollars she didn't have. She had a city manager to do the actual work for fuck's sake. Kind of like the millionaire's wife who takes credit for having such a lovely home when actually she has a maid, a gardener, a cook, and an interior designer to do the actual work.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:26 PM on September 3, 2008 [6 favorites]

It is important insofar as the Dems are saying she is totally unqualified, which is odd coming from a party that nominated Obama, who has less experience actually governing than she does.

I think he's proven himself over the last couple years particularly. He's run a very impressive campaign for a much longer period of time than anyone ever has before. He built this thing from the ground up and withstood the grueling pace for a year and a half without flinching. He can command the attention of the world and is taken seriously when he speaks. He didn't look presidential at first. He does now, and he's being taken very seriously by people inside and outside the party. Biden is a serious pick with an eye on governance. Palin is a political pick.

Palin has proven she can stir up the base. She has not proven that she has real leadership qualities fit for the office.
posted by krinklyfig at 9:27 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

One of the big roles of the vice president is meeting with foreign dignitaries, a role that doesn't seem suited for someone who didn't get their first passport until last year.

I dunno; buy me a nice suit with matching heels and give me a quick briefing and even I could do THAT.

For that matter, I am very experienced in attending funerals and weddings, too!
posted by konolia at 9:29 PM on September 3, 2008

It is a ridiculous argument and it's time to drop it.

It is perfectly legitimate to compare the workloads and responsibilities of two different elected officials, one overseeing a considerably larger constituency than the other. It is even more important to examine how they've been able to handle their respective tasks. That's what voters do, or should do, anyway. There is a very strong case that can be made to say that Obama has more experience for the job of president than Palin has for VP, and you're able to state your case that she's more qualified. But people are going to keep making their cases for who's the most qualified, one way or the other, whether you like it or not. You don't get to tell other people to "drop it".
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:31 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin has proven she can stir up the base. She has not proven that she has real leadership qualities fit for the office.

Considering that only yesterday at least half of you thought she was gonna get dumped from the ticket any minute....
posted by konolia at 9:32 PM on September 3, 2008

He wasn't planning budgets, etc when he was in the Senate.

I am saying that it is wrong for the Democrats to claim Palin is less qualified than he.

As a US senator, Obama votes on the the federal budget (as does McCain, of course). Add that to a whole slew of appropriations bills and whatnot, and I think it's safe to say Obama knows more about how the federal government works than Palin.
posted by hydrophonic at 9:32 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Re the "community organizer" digs-my take on that is they were kicking back at Obama's camp for saying she had little experience. The Party was making the point tonight that they felt that Obama's community organizer experience was in no way equivalent to an executive position such as mayor or governor.

Oh come on-- she did not say "Being a community organizer does not take as much responsibility as being governor or mayor"-- she basically said that being a community organizer is a worthless, meaningless job that does not involve actual responsibilities at all. She not only insulted, belittled, mocked him for doing that work, but belittled the work itself and (by extension) the people he worked with. I can't imagine any way to read that other than as mean-spirited.
posted by EmilyClimbs at 9:33 PM on September 3, 2008 [11 favorites]

I am saying that it is wrong for the Democrats to claim Palin is less qualified than he. It is a ridiculous argument and it's time to drop it.

This implies that Palin is more qualified. I for one do not think it is time to drop it. it isn't even and argument, it is flat out reality. Obama is more qualified to be President than your "gal" from Alaska. That is unless your qualifications are field dressing a moose or an agenda that involves banning books that don't adhere to your personal beliefs.

...but really who cares about all that reality if she is anti-abortion.
posted by clearly at 9:34 PM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

konolia said:

I (and every other woman on this thread) can tell you categorically just why it is a lie that Palin had an affair.

There is no freaking way the woman had time!

Please do not ever assume that I would agree with you about any subject.
posted by keli at 9:35 PM on September 3, 2008 [22 favorites]

i STILL think she's gonna get dumped from the ticket. The sharks are circling, and she isn't doing media interviews. She is going to be the story for the next 2 months, and it won't be good.
posted by empath at 9:35 PM on September 3, 2008

konolia -- a party that nominated Obama, who has less experience actually governing than she does.

That's false, konolia. All three branches of government govern, and Obama's government experience exceeds Palin's:

Palin's elected office:

* 4 years in city council
* 3 years as mayor
* a little under 2 years as governor

Obama's elected office:

* 7 years state senate
* a little under 4 years in US senate

Rounding down, that gives Palin 8 years, most of which was at the city level, and Obama 11 years, all of which is at state level or above.

Quoted from a slashdot comment. I still trust that crowd with basic addition.
posted by NortonDC at 9:36 PM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

It's interesting that Palin and the RNC has managed to shift the "barefoot and pregnant" trailerpark narrative to a discussion on executive experience.

It's just so weird how the Republican Party is so fundamentally anti-intellectual; Palin (like GWB) seems to celebrate ignorance.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:36 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

My sense in all this is that the same core 20% of the country that still thinks W shits rainbows are priapic over the current state of affairs in the GOP. It seems pretty obvious that any number of principled conservatives who aren't simply fundy nutcases are alarmed but almost resigned to the stupidity being paraded in front of them. At a certain point you have to conclude that if, in fact, this campaign does clearly tip toward the GOP because of fundamentalist christians, then the American experiment is truly over, full circle from religious persecution from Europe to a country enslaved by it's own blind worship of a bearded cult-leader's biography. It will be a fun and horrifying spectacle to witness things go even further into the shitter in the next 4 years. We will truly become the laughing-stock of the educated world.
posted by docpops at 9:36 PM on September 3, 2008 [30 favorites]

To use a baseball analogy, being more excited for your party's VP pick than the nominee is like being more thrilled by your team's backup catcher than your star player. Sure they'll only get an at bat every week or two, but it'll be awesome!
posted by drezdn at 9:37 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

And it's not me saying Obama wouldn't know how to be president. I am saying that it is wrong for the Democrats to claim Palin is less qualified than he. It is a ridiculous argument and it's time to drop it.

That's absurd. Obama is far more qualified to be president. It's not just the quantity of experiance, it's the quality. Obama was elected in statewide office, in a massive, ethnically diverse state. He was president of the Harvard law review. He's run an unbelievable and historic primary and beat the Clintons, and he clearly does a great job of getting gathering great people and getting them to execute. that is the key job of a president, whereas a small town mayor is nothing, nothing comparable. And she has only been governor for 20 scandal plagued months.
posted by delmoi at 9:38 PM on September 3, 2008 [9 favorites]

also, konolia, I'm hoping with all my heart that they do keep her. You couldn't create this sort of freakshow if you hired Pixar.
posted by docpops at 9:39 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Anyone who has been around an evangelist community would understand the 'sneer' about the term "community organizing". The evangelists are organized. I imagine they would fine it very funny to think that others actually have a term (let alone job description) to describe 'organizing' a community. You either are or are not organized. They follow their tribe.

i.e., I was taking voter registrar training last election, and one of the other trainees asked for 5,000 forms for the weekend crowd at her church. All the rest of us were taking 50.
posted by Surfurrus at 9:39 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

....so, tell me again, why didn't the Democrats nominate Hillary? She had more experience than anybody...
posted by konolia at 9:40 PM on September 3, 2008

So one thing I keep hearing is how she is a "reformer" who took on her "own party". But it was the Republican Party that needed cleaning up. I sense a new ad in the offing ...

'Vote Republicans: We scoop our own poop"
posted by Rumple at 9:40 PM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

Let's not forget that Obama graduated from Columbia and Harvard with a law degree and she was a journalism major from a notorious party school, a beauty queen and a sportscaster. Their experience just doesn't match up. I was a shift manager at a McDonalds for a year and a half, that doesn't make me qualified to be CEO.
posted by empath at 9:41 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

It seems strange that in a year when McCain wants to be a "maverick" and wants to "change politics" that the strategy for victory is basically 1988's strategy -- throw a pro-lifer in the veep slot, use surrogates to do the speaking, do your best to hide your headliner's moderate credentials, and smear, smear, smear.

It was the '88 strategy. It was the '92 strategy. It was the '96 strategy. I thought this was about changing politics.

Weirder still, why is so much of the evangelical-fundamentalist world so happy with Palin, who is pretty much Dubya, only with less experience, and will only serve if the moderate McCain kicks it?

The Republicans and Democrats have been waving the abortion bloody shirt for years. And the truth is, they don't want to change the status quo, because they know what it'd mean. Death. For them. The other party would have a Big Issue they could bring people in on. And they would destroy the ruling party.

It's why every time Congress tries to curb or ban abortion, they always make a "mistake" that get it overturned by the courts. They left out the life-and-health clause, for instance, in the D&X ban.

Palin is just another pawn in this greater fight to maintain the status quo. It's not about ruling effectively, it's about the image. It's not about bipartisan support, it's about red meat for the Phyllis Schafly followers. But at the end of the day, nothing changes. Sure, she has "executive" leadership, but how many bills will she write? How much policy will she create? What role will she have in writing the budget?

Yeah. Not much. She's mostly going to pop into the Senate once a year, go to funerals, and give red meat speeches to Right To Life groups.

Actually, that does sound like "executive" leadership. I've seen some pretty mediocre CEOs do pretty much that for a seven digit salary while their company is run despite their "leadership."
posted by dw at 9:43 PM on September 3, 2008

....so, tell me again, why didn't the Democrats nominate Hillary? She had more experience than anybody...

I think it was to spare us the national embarrassment of having McCain run with a token black candidate.
posted by troybob at 9:43 PM on September 3, 2008 [22 favorites]

[Hillary] had more experience than anybody...

Do you even think before repeating talking points? She had fewer years in elective office than Obama did, and the other candidates on the ticket (save edwards) dwarfed her in experience. If experience was the sole qualification, Richardson would be the nominee.
posted by empath at 9:44 PM on September 3, 2008 [6 favorites]

Considering that only yesterday at least half of you thought she was gonna get dumped from the ticket any minute....

I never said that. Whatever group you're referring to, I'm not in it.

I don't think you have any idea what is about to happen, though, or you choose not to think about it. The press are going to do what John McCain didn't do. They're going to vet her. The party insiders are very nervous about this. They should be. It's not going to be pretty. But this is like throwing red meat to a den of lions. What else are they going to do? She may come out on top, but the question in the next two months isn't really going to be about Obama's experience.
posted by krinklyfig at 9:45 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

I dunno; buy me a nice suit with matching heels and give me a quick briefing and even I could do THAT.

I'd bet dollars to donuts that you're over-selling yourself, honey!
posted by ericb at 9:47 PM on September 3, 2008 [8 favorites]

Ron Paul is older than John McCain, so he's the most experienced of all.
posted by lukemeister at 9:49 PM on September 3, 2008

....so, tell me again, why didn't the Democrats nominate Hillary? She had more experience than anybody...

Maybe because contrary to what your party is shoveling down your ravenous throat, one's qualification for the office of President of the United States of America is determined by much more than just some contrived magic number placed in the shiny and new "Executive Experience" column? Just a thought.
posted by Balonious Assault at 9:49 PM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

....so, tell me again, why didn't the Democrats nominate Hillary? She had more experience than anybody...
posted by konolia at 9:40 PM on September 3 [+] [!]

Good question, fair question, all smartassery aside. My take? If she had said just one time she fucked up on the Iraq war vote Obama would be a footnote. Millions of people who have seen HRC over the years hold court on TV have seen what an incredibly gifted orator she is and what sort of intellect she would bring to the job. W and his cronies fucked things up so, so badly that anything that even hinted of an unwillingness to look inward at one's decisions got knifed and thrown into the alley with the trash. It was never about sexism, it was a reaction to the worst political leader in our history leaving his taint in the air where it infected anyone that even remotely brought the memories to the fore of listening to a barely trainable mongoloid try to govern.
posted by docpops at 9:50 PM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

....so, tell me again, why didn't the Democrats nominate Hillary? She had more experience than anybody...

Because while she was building this experience it was viewed that the quality of her work was not as good as Obama's, most notably in their campaigns (ie. Obama was more capable of assembling an efficient national organization and presenting a message that voters liked)/.

You know, like how when Palin was accumulating her 20-odd months of state level executive experience it became apparent that she abused her power (Trooper scandal) and was ineffectual? (Dairy board)

You're right that quality can beat quantity, but Palin looses on both metrics.
posted by Orange Pamplemousse at 9:50 PM on September 3, 2008

There you go again with your elitist, Ivory Tower nonsense. I say if we can't get a C minus student from a good school to run the whole shebang- then why not an average student from a mediocre school?

I was thinking all day today that she IS George Bush in a dress. They are like twins separated at birth. They both cut taxes for the wealthy, run up enormous debts, rely on eminent domain, think abstinence is the answer to teen sexuality, fire anyone who doesn't give them the answer they want, and try to pass themselves off as "average Americans."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:52 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

Yeah. Not much. She's mostly going to pop into the Senate once a year, go to funerals, and give red meat speeches to Right To Life groups.

I don't trust any VP after Cheney. Besides, McCain is old.

He's old.

I got nothing against that. But in that light the pick of Palin is not encouraging.

George Carlin was younger than McCain. So was Don LaFontaine. It happens. I don't want her in charge.
posted by krinklyfig at 9:53 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

Considering that only yesterday at least half of you thought she was gonna get dumped from the ticket any minute....

Please. When Peggy I-Keep-One-Of-Ronald-Reagan's-Fingers-in-a-Shrine-in-My-Bedroom Noonan is taking potshots at the Republican VP candidate, you know there's some there there.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 9:54 PM on September 3, 2008 [11 favorites]

I stopped listening after whichever one, Rudy? or Huckabee? bashed the "Ivy Leaugue" pedigree (indicating Obama) that was beneath him & his humble (thus more noble) background. You have had two past Republican presidents in a row attend Yale and now suddenly it's frowned upon?

Oh, and what orange pamplemousse said.
posted by skyper at 9:56 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Do you even think before repeating talking points? She had fewer years in elective office than Obama did, and the other candidates on the ticket (save edwards) dwarfed her in experience. If experience was the sole qualification, Richardson would be the nominee.

But don't you remember? When Bill first ran for president, they said it would be like "buy one get one free." I'm not making a joke. They actually said that. And I for one consider that their years in the White House DID matter experience wise for her. I mean that sincerely.
posted by konolia at 9:58 PM on September 3, 2008

I am saying that it is wrong for the Democrats to claim Palin is less qualified than he. It is a ridiculous argument and it's time to drop it.

Konolia, from the start, you've argue from the premise that Palin has "leadership qualifications" for the VP position, simply because against reproductive choice for women.

Arguing that Obama is or is not qualified is just window-dressing. You could care less if Obama was qualified — and you know very well that he would be a better President than Palin would ever be, even as an assistant to the VP.

All that matters to you is Palin doing her part to get reproductive choice outlawed, and you will dissemble and smear and slur Obama's name, if and as necessary.

And it's un-Christian of you not to be honest about your criteria.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 9:58 PM on September 3, 2008 [11 favorites]

Speaking as a native New Yorker, may I say there’s perhaps nothing more absurd than watching a former mayor of New York City sneer at people who like cosmopolitan towns. -- Matt Yglesias

Heh.

....so, tell me again, why didn't the Democrats nominate Hillary? She had more experience than anybody... -- konolia

Well, the Iraq war vote, and the fact that Hillary refused to appologize or admit it was a mistake played a big part. All the experiance in the world dosn't matter if you have the wrong policies.

That said konolia I do appreciate you showing up and sharing your perspective.
posted by delmoi at 9:58 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

His rise is remarkable in its own right - it's the kind of thing that could happen only in America. [laughter]

Spectacle of the night was seeing the Republicans *actually laugh* at Obama's historic nomination.
posted by gerryblog at 9:58 PM on September 3, 2008

I'm sorry, what the fuck does September the 11th have to do with Iraq again?

Also, the Republicans had a Republican president, a Republican Congress, and a Republican-dominated Supreme Court. When are they going to get a better chance to outlaw abortion? Why didn't they pass a right-to-life amendment? Because they don't have the stones to put it to a vote, and then they'd lose the stick to beat Democrats with. Maybe McCain will win and appoint some "activist judges" to the Supreme Court. Or maybe they want to continue to play people like saps and suckers and fool them to voting against their interests and fucking everyone else in the process again and again. And deluded fools fall for it every time.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:58 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Executive experience? No thanks, I've had enough of that shoved down my throat over the last 8 years with the so-called MBA president - how'd executive experience work out for W, a guy who equates his executive role with that of being a monarch. Who thinks that his executive authority is transmitted directly from God. (And a narrow, petty, vindictive, angry, mean-spirited God, at that.) Apparently, she ascribes to the same *executive* philosophy and sense of superior moral authority.

Plus, let's examine the quality of that executive experience, shall we? Leaving her small town in deep debt? Firing everyone that disagrees with her? Ya, that's the epitome of good executive management.

Thanks, but I'm not looking to elect someone who will be the boss of me. In a democracy, that's not how things are supposed to work. Spare me from these executive "experience candidates" - give me old-fashioned public servants who want to work for me instead of the corporations, please.

I am hoping that with Ms Palin, they have overreached. But God help us all if I am wrong. Underestimate these people at your own peril - there are a lot of powerful, vested forces that do not want to be dislodged or discomforted in any way.
posted by madamjujujive at 9:59 PM on September 3, 2008 [9 favorites]

People are going to figure out pretty quickly that saying Palin has the most executive experience is kind of like saying that Charlie Sheen is the hardest-working actor in show business.
posted by troybob at 10:00 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

America is a republic, not a democracy.
posted by konolia at 10:04 PM on September 3, 2008

Ooooo nice catch! Sarah Palin's Big Lie

Sarah Palin's speech tonight said, "I found a few things in the governor's office that I didn't think that the tax payers should have to pay for...I've protected the tax payers..."

But here's the thing. There are no tax payers in Alaska. Alaska has no state sales tax and no state income tax. 87% of the non-earmarked revenue in the Alaskan budget comes from taxes on oil companies. Another $2 Billion comes from federal earmarks and subsidies.

For a governor of Alaska to brag about balancing the state budget and "protecting" tax payers is obscene! All they have to do is collect money from big oil and sign checks to the citizens of Alaskans who wait for their free handouts from the state like hungry little birds.

posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:05 PM on September 3, 2008 [6 favorites]

America is a republic, not a democracy.

The two words are not mutually exclusive. America is both.

And you still haven't answered why the all-important "executive experience" was not relevant six days ago.
posted by Flunkie at 10:10 PM on September 3, 2008

I was referencing an essay I read recently (probably in reference to the Edwards scandal but I'm not sure) asking the question why it always seemed that male politicians were the ones who got tripped up in scandals re affairs and not female politicians. The article, with tone half tongue in cheek was referencing the fact that women are too dang busy with the job/family balance to have free time for much of anything, much less an affair.

Referential humor is only funny when the references are clear to those being told the joke. Your reference was not clear, therefore it was not obvious to me (or others) it was a joke.

I did fail to get the memo that a Christian was not allowed a sense of humor....

I have a friend of mine from my church that had his wife run off with another man. She was "too busy" in some eyes, split between work and home, working more than 40 hours a week. And yet, there she was, having an affair and 86'ing the marriage.

I don't think affairs are all that funny. Your tone struck me as someone making light of them. Thus, my reaction.
posted by dw at 10:18 PM on September 3, 2008

America is a republic, not a democracy.

I hear this one a lot, usually bandied about when people want to foist their morals onto other people by decree. "Republic" and "democracy" are not mutually exclusive. America is a republic with a government structure of a representative democracy. That's why we like, vote 'n' stuff.

I don't know where this "republic not a democracy" meme came from, but I wish it would crawl back to whatever flag-GIF infested message board hatched it.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:19 PM on September 3, 2008 [7 favorites]

His rise is remarkable in its own right - it's the kind of thing that could happen only in America. [laughter]

Yeah, I heard that too and I didn't understand exactly what they were laughing about, it almost seemed like the "joke" was that Obama isn't really an American, but benefited from it anyway.
posted by delmoi at 10:19 PM on September 3, 2008

Sarah Palin's speech tonight said, "I found a few things in the governor's office that I didn't think that the tax payers should have to pay for...I've protected the tax payers..."

But here's the thing. There are no tax payers in Alaska.

Arguably she protected federal taxpayers, so not just Alaskans but taxpayers throughout the country. Cynically, reading her quote, she protected the oil companies.

Anyway, with all this arbitrariness, I declare that STATE government experience is moot and only FEDERAL government experience counts, so Palin is right out.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 10:22 PM on September 3, 2008

I don't know where this "republic not a democracy" meme came from

Civics class.
posted by konolia at 10:23 PM on September 3, 2008

All they have to do is collect money from big oil and sign checks to the citizens of Alaskans who wait for their free handouts from the state like hungry little birds.

I'm moving to Alaska.
posted by jnaps at 10:25 PM on September 3, 2008

America is a republic, not a democracy.

So, konolia, can you explain what this means?
posted by ericb at 10:25 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Civics class.

Well, I'd recommend double-checking that little nugget, if I was you.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:25 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

konolia, look up the word "democracy" in a dictionary. If your civics teacher taught you that "republic" and "democracy" are mutually exclusive terms, then you were taught incorrectly.
posted by Flunkie at 10:26 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

But here's the thing. There are no tax payers in Alaska. Alaska has no state sales tax and no state income tax. 87% of the non-earmarked revenue in the Alaskan budget comes from taxes on oil companies. Another $2 Billion comes from federal earmarks and subsidies.

And of course, she raised taxes on Oil companies. (not that there's anything wrong with that)
posted by delmoi at 10:26 PM on September 3, 2008

I don't know where this "republic not a democracy" meme came from

Civics class.

I'm guessing that's in the same school that came up with 'abstinence-only' sex education.
posted by troybob at 10:27 PM on September 3, 2008

Wait, so Sarah Palin wants to redistribute the oil companies' wealth to Americans? Where I do register to vote?
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:30 PM on September 3, 2008

They actually do tell you that in civics class. Hopefully you learn a little bit more about politics after you graduate the ninth grade, though.
posted by empath at 10:30 PM on September 3, 2008

Well, I'm not going to wait for an answer anymore; I'm going to bed. But, konolia, if you do wind up answering the question of why the all-important "executive experience" was completely irrelevant six days ago, please follow up with an answer to my other question:

Sarah Palin's executive decisions caused her town of about 5,000 people to lose twenty million dollars. After that, her town hired an administrator to take over executive control of the town. With that in mind:

Which is a better qualification for a Presidential/Vice Presidential candidate: No executive experience, or executive experience that demonstrates incompetence at making executive decisions? And why?
posted by Flunkie at 10:31 PM on September 3, 2008 [7 favorites]

According to Hot for Words "republic" and "democracy" mean the same thing.
posted by delmoi at 10:32 PM on September 3, 2008

It was an impressive performance tonight, given Palin's inexperience in the national spotlight. I was surprised, and I'm frankly a little more worried about the Democrats underestimating her.

Still, I think it's odd that she didn't really go after her direct opponent in this race, Joe Biden, and instead reserved her attacks for someone (else, in addition) who runs circles around her in the on-the-job-experience department. Legislative branch of the federal government trumps governor of a state in my book.

Palin has municipal government experience as a town mayor, and some executive experience as a state governor. From what I have read, I don't think she had even begun her term as governor when her running mate began his election campaign. I'll repeat what I said upthread, that Tim Kaine is a former mayor of a city much more populous than the town Palin presided over. He's currently the governor of a state with a population more than ten times that of Alaska's. Despite all that, it was decided that Kaine's résumé wasn't distinguished enough to earn him a VP nod. IOKIYAR, however, so Palin's short résumé evidently gets a pass.
posted by emelenjr at 10:33 PM on September 3, 2008

Usually, the way it's taught in civics class is:

"The united states is not a 'true democracy' where every decision is made by a direct vote of the people. The united states is a 'representative democracy' in the form of a republic."

Most ninth graders aren't real capable of subtle distinctions, so what they take away from that is that the US is a Republic, not a Democracy, cause like the opposite of a Democract is a Republican, duh.
posted by empath at 10:33 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

America is a republic, not a democracy.

This is exactly the reason why it is irrelevant when you say "everyone I have talked to is sooo exited about Palin" because North Carolina (I believe it is) is historically a red state. The electoral college for better or worse is representative of that divide between people and government that defines a Republic. While North Carolina may remain red, the whole state could vote like you and it would not count for any more than the 15/538 electoral votes it is allotted.

Also, it is going to be close in North Carolina.
posted by clearly at 10:36 PM on September 3, 2008

I'm on Eastern Standard Time and it's way past my bedtime; so I leave you with this quote from Peggy Noonan whilst I put my almost 50 year old self to bed:

I don't think the most powerful attack line will be, in the end, inexperience. Our nation appears to be in a cycle in which inexperience seems something of a lure. "He's fresh, he's new, he hasn't appalled me yet!" I don't think it's age. While Palin seems to me young, so does Obama. I freely concede this is a drawback of getting older: you keep upping your idea of what "old enough" is. But only because when you're 50 you know you're wiser and more seasoned than you were at 40, or should be.
posted by konolia at 10:39 PM on September 3, 2008

Most ninth graders aren't real capable of subtle distinctions, so what they take away from that is that the US is a Republic, not a Democracy, cause like the opposite of a Democract is a Republican, duh.

Well, it may be that the teachers are also not aware of the subtleties, I remember the "republican not a democracy" line in school at some point, along with the "glass is a liquid" line in science class. Not everything you hear in school is correct.
posted by delmoi at 10:39 PM on September 3, 2008

I have NEVER EVER seen this level of excitement in a political race. EVER.
- konolia

Konolia, I appreciate your sharing images of people around you who have such different beliefs from most of the posters here on metafilter. At the same time I think I share the shock and fear that I see in many of the posts about the RNC speeches and crowd reactions. We have all - on both sides - suffered years of anger and mistrust. Emotions run high.

I would like to see us all move from debating issues that are unresolvable and would like to see the personal/moral attacks put aside permanently. We must find SOME understanding of what we DO share, because -- in the end -- neither 'side' is going to win all that they want to win. No matter what happens, neither your platform nor mine will be delivered in totality. We are going to see a lot of compromises.

I, for one, see the 'religious right' as having an enormous amount of energy, dedication and organization that could be significantly important in Obama's dream of recovery of our economy. I also see that the 'family values' - as demonstrated in the warmth and support for Palin's family - is something more of us should admire, if not learn to embrace. I suspect you may also see something 'redeemable' in us.

Still, I also believe there are "entities" that benefit from the schisms in this country -- there are those who relish the fury and hatred. When people feel fear and persecution or even if they simply feel unheard and politically impotent, they are vulnerable to the manipulations of these others. These "others" do not want us to talk; that would release us from their power.

Keep writing here and help us learn. Maybe we here will find a way to cheer on the joy you describe tonight. Maybe we will learn to not assume negative motives of the people. And, maybe you and yours will question more, assert yourselves more, and not allow your inner truths be twisted by those who do not really serve your interests.

We are all on the same path.
posted by Surfurrus at 10:40 PM on September 3, 2008 [11 favorites]

Wow. Late late late to the party. ff is taking up so much memory that I can't see what I'm typing.

From the irrepressible konolia:

I am saying that it is wrong for the Democrats to claim Palin is less qualified than he. It is a ridiculous argument and it's time to drop it.

Afraid not. One of the issues is whether or not someone can "scale". Can they really take the big time? Can they see through the clutter and get things done? Unknown on either, one more than the other. Entirely fair game. If she didn't want criticism, she shouldn't be running.

....so, tell me again, why didn't the Democrats nominate Hillary? She had more experience than anybody...

Obama got more votes. Lots of people had more experience than Clinton or Bush, or Reagan, or Carter, or anyone else. The winners got more votes. parties don't always get the most qualified candidate. Same as in high school. The constituentcy has every right to examine wohever's left and make a choice.
posted by lysdexic at 10:40 PM on September 3, 2008

The thing that bothers me about Palin is that she's forcing democrats to argue positions we ordinarily find distasteful if not untenable.

I don't give a damn about her pregnant daughter, but because she's parading her around, we have to comment on it, or she gets a free pass.

I don't care that her husband was a member of the secessionist party, but because everyone has to be SO FUCKING AMERICAN it's important to the race.

I don't give a damn if she's a woman, but she'd better be ready to face the same bullshit that Hillary put up with for the long campaign.

I don't care much about her incredible lack of experience, because I'm not voting for a vice-president. Either I vote for Mr. 90% Bush, or I vote for Change.
On second thought, I do care about the experience thing. Specifically, foreign policy experience. Obama has had three+ years on the Foreign Policy committee, with lots of world travel and world leader meetings. She's left the country ONCE.

It is funny, however, how completely foolish it makes Republican pundits look. The Daily Show segment on reversed opinions was grand.
posted by graventy at 10:42 PM on September 3, 2008 [5 favorites]

No, shit, konolia...North Carolina? In your single-issue worldview, was electing, time and again, the Senate's most unapologetic racist, Jesse Helms, worth the lip service he paid to getting rid of abortion?
posted by troybob at 10:42 PM on September 3, 2008 [4 favorites]

Our nation appears to be in a cycle in which inexperience seems something of a lure. "He's fresh, he's new, he hasn't appalled me yet!"

I'll say this for Palin: She's fresh and new.
posted by mazola at 10:43 PM on September 3, 2008

I like this quote from Noonan: "It's Over"
posted by delmoi at 10:43 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

The more konolia shoots off her mouth, the less I respect her.

The people she supports are factual liars, factual power-abusers, factual incompetents, factual bad people.

Is guilt by association unfair? It may be, but that she would not only vote in support of such horrible people, but actually promote them as well makes her not only a bad Christian, but a bad American.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:47 PM on September 3, 2008 [8 favorites]

Something that's bothering from Palin's speech:

I'm just one of many moms who will say an extra prayer each night for our sons and daughters going into harm's way. Our son Track is 19, and one week from tomorrow, September 11th, he'll deploy to Iraq with the Army infantry in the service of his country.

Is he actually deploying on 9/11? If so, are we supposed to believe that's a coincidence? And isn't identifying him and putting his picture up there for the world to see putting him at increased risk?
posted by homunculus at 10:49 PM on September 3, 2008

I am no more impressed with Palin or the Republican platform than I was before tonight but I think that characterizing the RNC as some kind of creepy hatred-fest is hyperbolic and cynical. That attitude is like the refrains "they just hate America and everything we stand for" or "they just hate everything right and good", which I think are usually applied for the sake of avoiding understanding other people. Bush, Rove, et cetera are certainly evil but we don't need to make it out that every single Red Stater is a rage-filled humanity-destroying wasted cinder of a human soul or something.

Remember all that stuff Obama said about not a Red America or a Blue America, but a United States of America?
posted by XMLicious at 10:49 PM on September 3, 2008 [3 favorites]

The more konolia shoots off her mouth, the less I respect her.

Yes, but it appears that konolia might have more experience than anyone here at defending the indefensible. That's got to count for some kind of Republican nom...
posted by troybob at 10:51 PM on September 3, 2008

A little funny:

While Mitt Romney was cracking jokes about Al Gore's private jet...

... Al Gore was flying from San Francisco to Tampa on Southwest, on the same plane as my business partner and his wife.
posted by tomierna at 10:51 PM on September 3, 2008 [11 favorites]

I'm just one of many moms who will say an extra prayer each night for our sons and daughters going into harm's way.

My mother was livid when, after the speech, she did not stand next to her children, and instead waited for McCain to come out and hugged him instead.
posted by clearly at 10:55 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

konolia, would you be so impressed with Palin if she were Linda Lingle?

Lingle, a Reublican, is in her second term as Governor, was the two-term Mayor of Maui County , and spent ten years on the on the council (versus one term for Palin).

Of course not. Because Governor Lingle is a pro-choice twice-divorced Jewish woman.

Lingle has Palin beat, hands down, in terms of length and depth of experience. Maui County had a population, in 2000, of 128,000 people -- or 21 times the population of Wassila. Hawaii's population is twice that of Alaska. Unlike Alaska, where residents get paid by the state from oil revenue and pay no taxes, Hawaii's budget rests on taxes and hard choices.

Had McCain chosen Lingle as his VP, you wouldn't be in here ecstatically arguing her merits. You'd be telling us how you and your husband were leaving the Republican Party and voting for Bob Barr.

It's fine that you're thrilled by having an Evangelical anti-choice VP, but come on, just forthrightly tell us that, and that for you that trumps experience (and in light of Palin's record, judgment). Arguing that Palin's experience is impressive just calls your judgment (or candor) into question.

And notice that, while your far from the only conservative who comments here -- one can find several in the RNC protest thread, ad others are familiar names to us --, notice that you're the only one here in this thread defending Palin.

I'm glad you're here doing it, I only point this out to suggest to you that outside of the Evangelical Christian anti-choice Republicans, the delight in Palin does not seem to be shared. And that in turn suggests to me that she doesn't have the pull with non-Evangelical Republicans and independents necessary to make her a game changer for McCain.
posted by orthogonality at 10:57 PM on September 3, 2008 [13 favorites]

...I think that characterizing the RNC as some kind of creepy hatred-fest is hyperbolic and cynical.

I grew up gay in an extremely right-wing Georgia town. Don't presume to tell me what hate looks like. It wears the same 700 Club smile that I saw echoed tonight in thousands of faces cheering every mean and demeaning remark Palin made.
posted by troybob at 10:59 PM on September 3, 2008 [24 favorites]

Sorry I missed you, konolia. Anyway, I'm up late and should go to bed, too. But, i did wantto say this.

There was a silly episode of the West Wing where the staff takes a look at dropping the current veep for someone else in the re election campaign. president sheen puts an end to it by giving them a note saying to keep their guy "because I could die".

That's the choice that the top candidate has to make - who will take my place when I die? Who is truly the best person for the job. In an ideal world, all the top candidates would pick from their former rivals. Very few have. Abraham Lincoln was one. I can look up others tomorrow, er, later today.

How would President Palin govern? How would she interact with a power elite and government that's larger than anything she's had to deal with to date by orders of magnitude? She hasn't been through the meat grinder of a national campaign for over a year, and while she'll learn a lot in the next couple of months, It's not the same.

How would President Biden govern? He knows his way about Washington, and around power, and is demonstrably very very smart. He's got a record a mile long. Obama's isn't as long, but it's there, and open. As is McCain's.

"Who will take over when I die?" One thing we're all afraid of and all afraid to talk about is that Obama has a much higher chance of being assasinated. If someone really wants to kill you, they can do it. He's got Michelle for the kids, and he's picked Biden for the rest of us.

I started out for Richardson or Kucinich. The primaries are over, the convention is over. Obama's my guy, and McCain has done nothing to change that. Quite the opposite, really

It's great that people are charged up and previously apathetic people are joining the fray. Welcome! Just read up on stuff and don't be bamboozled by someone who on the surface is "just like you."
posted by lysdexic at 11:01 PM on September 3, 2008 [7 favorites]

The "republic not a democracy" thing comes by way of comparison to the Athenian ecclesia, the original form of government to which the term "democracy" was applied, in which rule by the people literally meant that every (male) citizen was free to directly participate in the activities of government. (But I agree that this is a much more limited sense than what "democracy" means today, so I generally regard "republic not a democracy" as a bit of sophistry.)
posted by XMLicious at 11:02 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

Have you people only been reading konolia's comments starting today? She's been saying this kind of wretched shit for years here. How can it come as any kind of surprise?
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:05 PM on September 3, 2008

Have you people only been reading konolia's comments starting today? She's been saying this kind of wretched shit for years here. How can it come as any kind of surprise?

Goddamit, why can't I sleep?!

It's no surprise, I've seen it heard it. I'm trying to have a conversation. I know we're not going to convince each other, but we can find common ground. It forges a path, either between me and her or me and someone else or her and someone else. It's networking. It's all good. Peace out.
posted by lysdexic at 11:14 PM on September 3, 2008

Pope Guilty,

This season marks my first time participating in MetalectionFilter, and while I have come across her comments in other threads, I don't think they have come from such an indefensible position as defending Sarah Palin.

But yea, "wretched shit" is a great way of putting it. I would add the word "unwavering" in there as well.

To each his/her own up until the point of complete dismissal and ignorance of reason.
posted by clearly at 11:20 PM on September 3, 2008

Is he actually deploying on 9/11?

Someone brought up earlier that it's not likely that anyone knows ahead of time the exact date of when he's supposed to head out. I've no idea. But I do find it absolutely pig disgusting that 9/11 was lassoed so clumsily together with the Iraq War, just as it was 5 years ago, and that this contemptable woman could use her son's deployment into this disastrous war, and the deaths of thousands in a terrorist attack, as a self-serving pedastal of self-righteousness to stand upon, and do this with a smile on her face even. I'm still at a loss for expressing just how patently offensive that is.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:20 PM on September 3, 2008 [7 favorites]

troybob: I grew up gay in an extremely right-wing Georgia town. Don't presume to tell me what hate looks like. It wears the same 700 Club smile that I saw echoed tonight in thousands of faces cheering every mean and demeaning remark Palin made.

I certainly give you all due props for suffering hatred, but I still think that your characterization of this may be biased if you're seriously saying that Palin's speech was especially mean or demeaning. Dissing the political opposition, for sure, and reveling in it, and I personally find the reasoning behind everything she said to be lacking; but not so substantially different from what happened at the DNC.

Are you really saying that the smiles are different between Republicans and Democrats? That for Democrats the smiles are genuine political celebration and revelry, but for the Republicans it's just a mask over hatred? If your life experiences lead you to think that of all Republicans I guess you've gotta, but I can't follow you there.
posted by XMLicious at 11:24 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

The Obama campaign has just sent this out: Palin v. Reality.
posted by maudlin at 11:33 PM on September 3, 2008 [12 favorites]

Palin was very confident, and certainly exceeded expectations. But to me she came off very smug and condescending, like the most popular girl in high school running for student council. A smart teenager jumping through the assigned hoops with confidence, sure. A leader? Not for one second.

And the nasty tone, I will be fascinated to see how that works with the non-partisan public. She is playing the mom-and-devoted-mother card awfully hard to be that mean.
posted by msalt at 11:39 PM on September 3, 2008 [1 favorite]

The "America is a Republic, not a Democracy" trope?

That's been a Republican talking point since Nixon, to color the party with the other name as less American. (Along with the recent intentional misstatement of it as "The Democrat Party" - maybe I should just call her konol.)

Politically, the K lady has been pitching nothing more than slightly-reworded content from the Official Rush/Rove Daily TalkingPoints Email for a long time. Same stuff I see injected into comment threads elsewhere on the Web. Including "everyone I have talked to is sooo excited about Palin" which is what they have been telling all their Comment Trolls (and CommentBots) to say since the moment they got over the shock of her selection. Never judge anything as true based on the number of Republicans saying it. They have mastered the Lock-Step Analysis (even while they battle each other fiercely behind the scenes). The Rush/Rove Daily Email is very widely distributed.

If I had seen anything close to this display from the Democrats I would have given up on the American Political System entirely by now. (Of course, one of the GOP's favorite flat-out lies is that the Dems somehow lack diversity.)

But yes, the fact that konolia was the only GOPbot commenting here does suggest that the others have given up trying to defend Palin, or maybe, since most of the others are male, their sexism has trumped their GOP loyalty.
posted by wendell at 11:44 PM on September 3, 2008 [11 favorites]

Alot of people have spoken to this, but this whole experience pissing match is just too stupid. Plus it took me a long time to type, so i'm going with it...

I am saying that it is wrong for the Democrats to claim Palin is less qualified than he. It is a ridiculous argument and it's time to drop it.

Despite totally disagreeing with you completely, I have a bit of respect for your input konolia. If only because you have stuck through this whole thread with pretty much everyone against you, and not resorted to name-calling or any kind of shenanigans. You have your opinion, and seem to give it in good faith. But Facts are Facts. If you disagree with anything In this timeline, I'm open to correction. if there's something in Palin's resume I missed, please feel free to add it.

You have a son in the Air Force, right? So despite our differences in opinion, we have something in common. I come from an Air Force Family as well. I'm sure your son would tell you in a second that leadership is more than just a matter of resume. I bet there are other men your sons age who may have made more money than him by now, or gone to "good" schools. Or have better professional resume's. But I bet your son stands a little taller than they do. I bet he speaks in a way that people listen to just a little more than thy did a few years ago.

leadership is not just in what you do. It's in what you CHOOSE to do.

Tonight Sarah Palin gave her first nationally televised speech, although she did nor write this speech. Over the past 4 years Barack Obama has come to be known as one of the finest political speechwriters and Orators of our time. Anyone who discounts this has not been doing their History homework. "Ask not what your country can do...Fourscore and seven years, Nothing to fear but fear itself..."Part of the job description is to lead us, both in word and deed. To set the tone for the direction of this country both domestically and in the eyes of the world. It's a bit more than just signing papers and firing people.

But let's look at the the actual record as it stands.

2006-2008
Palin has Been governor of Alaska for 20 months. Obama has been actively campaigning for President for 18 months. During that time Palin has gained Executive experience. I have no problem giving her credit for that.

During that same time period, Obama has been traveling to just about every state in the Union meeting with and talking to Americans from all walks of life, he has had to deal with the scrutiny of the press and competing campaigns. He has participated in approximately 20 debates. He has had to pass the litmus test of primary season, where every couple of weeks, people in a variety of states, got to actually vote in a sanctioned election as to whether he could continue. All this while managing and strategizing the largest, best organized, and most successful campaign organization this country has ever seen. The only candidate in the field on both sides to do so without major shake-up, setback, press leaks, shift in message or any discernible drama whatsoever. All while holding down his job as a US Senator.

In that same amount of time Sarah Palin as governor is already under investigation for ethical misconduct.

In 2006 Obama also wrote a besteselling book, his second "The Audacity of Hope" In which he spelled out pretty clearly his political ideas and governing philosophy.

2002-2005
Sarah Palin was unemployed for 3 years. During that same time period, Obama was an Illinois state Senator for two years and then was elected to the United States Senate. He was also keynote speaker at the 2004 Democratic convention, a sign of his rising stature in the Democratic party.

1996-2002
Sarah Palin Was Mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, a town of approx. 7,000. She was elected by a margin of 909 to 292 votes. I will be fair, and giver her credit for executive experience. It must be noted, however that the average college president presides over a larger community and larger budget. Also more votes are tallied in an average Triple A high school Student Council Election.

Obama was State Senator from Illinois 13th congressional district. population 781,000. A larger population than the entire state of Alaska. He was elected to 3 consecutive terms. While this doesnt count as "executive experience" as a legislator he sponsored bills into law covering a diverse range of topics from welfare reform to tax codes, health care and death penalty reform.

pre 1996.

neither Candidate held Elected government Office.

During This Time, Palin was 2nd runner up in the Miss Alaska contest, gained a degree in journalism from The University of Idaho, served as a sports reporter for an Anchorage TV station, Worked as a commercial fisherman,and was part owner of a car wash.

Obama Gained a degree in Political science with a specialization in International relations from Columbia University. He worked as a Community Organizer in Chicago's south side for three years. He gained a Law degree from Harvard, where he was President of The Harvard Law Review. He wrote his first book, a critically acclaimed memoir "Dreams From My Father" in 1995
He was director Of Chicago's Project Vote a voter registration project that registered 400,000 African American voters. He taught Constitutional Law at the University of Chicago for 12 years. He was also an associate at Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland, a 12-attorney law firm specializing in civil rights litigation and neighborhood economic development from 1993 to 2004. He has served on the board of directors for 6 organizations.

Throughout the past few days, everytime this Election takes another WTF? turn, i've soothed my political nerves with these two things.

Rolling Stone's article about Obama's Primary Campaign Organization The press has largely ignored the real reason Obama is where he is right now, his phenomenal Grassroots campaign. The polls don't show it, and nobody talks about it, but if his machine keeps rolling like it has, mostly unnoticed, and completely underestimated, he WILL win in November.

And this Speech from labor day. In the wake of all the Palin brouhaha, this speech went pretty much unreported. I'm hearing some opinions that it might be the best speech of his entire campaign. That's saying a LOT, but I've watched maybe 5 times in the past 2 days. There's something quietly phenomenal about it. It is entirely positive. He doesn't mention policy, but it's also not soaring pie in the sky "hope talk". it's relatively short and pretty simple. There is only one mention of McCain and Bush, and it'a apositive one. But the thing of it is. it's a speech about empathy. A speech about how we should treat each other.

It's a speech from a politician in the middle of a pretty heated, close, and bordering on nasty campaign, and I can't find one ounce of cynicism in it. One ounce of negativity. Not one ounce of hate.

There's a spot in the middle where someone in the crowd yells out "I love You Obama!" And he hears it. In the middle of this speech, in front of all these people, after all these months of giving speeches every single day, 3 times a day, when you would expect himto be on auto-pilot, he hears it. and responds. "I love you back"

When have you ever heard a politician say "I love you"? How many can you think of who could say it and not have it be a total disconnect from reality? Even the ones you like?

We're gonna win this thing. Call me a naive. Call me an Obamaniac. Call me partisan, liberal, deluded or deranged. I don't care. The republicans can rally their base, pander to their hypocritical values, belittle and lie all they want.

We're going to win this thing.
posted by billyfleetwood at 11:52 PM on September 3, 2008 [124 favorites]

Official Rush/Rove Daily TalkingPoints Email

I find their ideas disgusting and would like to subscribe to their newsletters. If there are actually Talking Points Emails being sent out please let me know where.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 11:54 PM on September 3, 2008

I find it substantially different from what happened at the DNC because the DNC aimed to uplift and inspire its audience; the RNC dragged them into the mud, and they enjoyed it a bit too much. Their excitement over the nastiest parts of the speech far outweighed any pretense that they were offering or sharing any kind of vision.

And what my life experience leads me to believe is something I did not share, and that I do not pretend is in any way objective, or even fair: it struck me as a strong, loud woman putting the uppity black man in his place, and a whole bunch of white folks who fancy themselves dispossessed reveling in retribution.
posted by troybob at 11:54 PM on September 3, 2008 [15 favorites]

After watching her speech tonight I'm going to have to side w/ konolia on this point: Palin is gonna be CASH MONEY for the energizing of the base. I speak from a lifetime of living in and around the base. The fact that she is entirely unqualified is entirely irrelevant to the target audience. I know legions of dipshits that will adore her. She isn't going to pull any votes from Obama but her presence will be enough to flog every last drop of energy from the basemachine. The basemachine was so depressed that it didn't have a celebrity like Obama and now it does. As long as she doesn't drop the baby on camera she's golden. Whether or not energizing the base will make the difference is an open question.

Also, I would interpret "community organizer" as basecode for "hippie radical". Again, the fact that Obama was not actually a hippie/radical is entirely irrelevant as the reference is delivered with a "one of them" wink-nudge. All evil in basemachine's worldview originated in the 1960's and can somehow be linked to the hippies.
posted by well_balanced at 11:57 PM on September 3, 2008 [2 favorites]

It doesn't really matter what they find out about her at this point. There's no ethical or criminal charge that you can't stonewall for two months, as she is proving right now. She'll stay on the ticket, and I'll bet you she won't do a real press conference or serious interview before the VP debates. Not one. Why should she? Her base already know the one thing they need to know about her, and that's all they care about.

But fuck it. They want to go base for base? Let's rock. Hey, y'all, don't forget to donate if you haven't already. Huge grassroots organizations are expensive.
posted by Bookhouse at 12:12 AM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Sigh. I have very little cash, and have put off giving Obama money. After tonight's speech I think I'm going to finally bust out my credit card. Mmm, or perhaps I'll wait until tomorrow night to see if I should double my intended amount.
posted by every_one_needs_a_hug_sometimes at 12:21 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Linda Grant in the Guardian:

So clear is the divide between big-city and small-town America that one American friend said to me: "These whitebread Republicans are like children - someone has to tell them what to do and what to think, they're incapable of independent ideas."

The conviction by the left that the right is stupid is one of the defining and least attractive characteristics of contemporary politics. Assuming that anyone who disagrees with you is too dim to get your point is not itself a particularly brainy way to win others over to the essential correctness of your views. But it is true that to small-town Republicans the world is not a complicated place, because they have seen so little of it.

I asked a sophisticated and well-travelled Republican why he voted the way he did. He described growing up "dirt poor" in a small town in Northern California where joining the military was your sole ticket out; where the people in his family who depended on welfare stayed where they were and the ones who worked their fingers to the bone managed to make a better life for themselves. For him, joining the army led directly to an education. In fact, it led all the way to Princeton. But how, I asked him, baffled, could someone as intelligent as he is believe that George W Bush was anything but a cretin?

Because, he explained, people in small towns don't like or trust intellectuals, particularly ones who appear to be sneering at them for their supposed stupidity. They admire a plain-speaking man; it's what they know and what they are used to.

They always assumed Bush was a regular guy who could keep his thoughts concise.
posted by Rumple at 12:21 AM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Yeah, what Bookhouse said!
posted by every_one_needs_a_hug_sometimes at 12:22 AM on September 4, 2008

The idea that Palin's experience is even remotely of the same or higher quality or quantity than Obama's is laughable at best and batshitinsance at worst. Seriously. A few years mismanaging the budget as mayor of a town with a population smaller than some retail store staffs? A few months mismanaging as the governor of a state with no taxes on residents?

She barely deserves to be a historical footnote, and then, only as an example of how not to govern.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 12:27 AM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

This comment is my gift to the overseas nightwatch as they campaign their way towards #3,000
posted by Rumple at 12:29 AM on September 4, 2008

Because, he explained, people in small towns don't like or trust intellectuals, particularly ones who appear to be sneering at them for their supposed stupidity. They admire a plain-speaking man; it's what they know and what they are used to.

This man is has the mind of child. He is taking his ball home because some one on the other team made fun of him. Why I should bother to respect his Childish point of view is beyond me.
posted by afu at 12:58 AM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Why is "community organizer" a punchline?

I think there may be a whiff of black activism in the way it's received, but it probably harks back to Reagan's "most feared words in the English language" -- "I'm from the government, and I'm here to help you." Combine with a dash of "union organizer", the sort that used to be run out of small towns on a rail, and you have an image of Obama as a man who wants to be America's community organizer. In short, an outsider -- a rabble-rouser with an agenda. I think this is an effective image for them, and it has an element of the dog-whistle in that it's something that would not have occurred to a typical Democrat.

The whole speech seemed to effectively set up a "small town vs. Washington/elites" ~~psychodrama~~ general election theme. In fact, like Stephanoploulos, I'd give the speech at worst an A-. It had to do several things at once and it performed well at all of them. It wasn't a rhetorical collector's item, but it connected with the audience and Palin came across as likable and genuine. In a sense the expectations game was played skilfully in that all she had to do was NOT fall flat on her face. She learned to pronounce "nuclear" since last Friday, for example. Not-bad zingers like "career making change happen" play well and (bonus!) reinforce the main theme.

Overall, I did not find the speech hateful. Smug and insular, but those are hallmarks of Republicanism in this day and age. Somewhat mild as an attack piece. Teeth bared, certainly, but bite weak. The messaging is confused and lacks vision, but that is an overall failing of the campaign.

This is not to say she will wipe the floor with Joe Biden. But she will be an able campaigner, maybe even debater. Especially if the questions are not of the form "America has three allies in the Asian steppe. Can you name two of them.?"

Want to say more, but length of threrad is causing FF3 to move like molasses. CAN HAZ NEW THREAD NOW?
posted by dhartung at 1:07 AM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

I would love to be a fly on the wall at Judgment Day and be able to hear konolia's God tell her and her fellow "Christians" what he really thinks of their behavior. The far-right "Christians" have completely abdicated their intellect, they have followed and supported false prophets, and they have hijacked an entire country with their un-Christian belief system.

The cognitive dissonance they work so hard to maintain must be exhausting - I know it's exhausting to me just trying to follow it - and it's notable that konolia has conveniently ignored all of the questions in this thread that would require her to explain right-wing hypocrisies, e.g. abortion, social programs, etc.

Watching the RNC tonight was like watching a cult. The followers are so invested in their deceitful rhetoric that they're willing to cheer for obvious lies and obviously evil intent. "Christians" have been so corrupted by the Republican party (or is it vice versa?) and it's mind-boggling that they can't even see it. No amount of evidence, no amount of inescapable truth, will budge them from their programmed talking points.

It's scary, and it's sad, and it's pathetic. Are they all suffering from Stockholm Syndrome or are they really just that stupid?
posted by amyms at 1:12 AM on September 4, 2008 [8 favorites]

They admire a plain-speaking man; it's what they know and what they are used to.

Even more, they admire someone with one of two messages: (1) there are people out there (blacks, gays, immigrants, atheists, liberals) who are trying to take away what you have, and (2) there are people out there (same) who are trying to take for themselves what you rightfully deserve. Talk radio is built on the well-controlled, one-way reinforcement of this paranoia.
posted by troybob at 1:14 AM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

I think the best route to go for the ads is in the money: Bush has put this country in extreme amounts of debt - Palin has shown herself to be exactly the same kind of irresponsible tax-and-waste Republican. She left Wasilla with a 63% higher annual spending than when she found it, and $19 million in debt. That comes out to a bit less than $4000 per resident. For the record, as of right now, the Iraq war has cost the country about $1,600 per person. This means that we might have found a per-capita WORSE money manager than George W Bush. Palin has also supported some $500 million in federal pork for Alaska, including the funding for the Bridge to Nowhere.

The Republican party once campaigned on cutting the excesses of government; now they are the symbol of excess. And what's worse is that they don't have any pretenses of helping people as they piss away the country's resources. It's all for lining the pockets of people with lots of executive experience and the friends thereof.
posted by kaibutsu at 1:33 AM on September 4, 2008 [7 favorites]

it would be easy to get the impression from this thread that we were talking about a race between obama and palin for president - and i find that pretty disturbing

she's upstaging him - that's not good for the democrats - but it could even be worse for the republicans

my gut feeling is that her and mccain will lose - and that we have not heard the last of sarah palin after this election

she'll run for president in 2012, one way or another
posted by pyramid termite at 1:39 AM on September 4, 2008

Weirder still, why is so much of the evangelical-fundamentalist world so happy with Palin
I don't think Konolia is as representative of those people as she thinks she is. The people around her may be extatic, the reaction on the homeschool blogs I read were not all that enthusiastics. These are mothers that are right in Palin's demographic: large families, no birth control, let alone abortion. I completely recognized the views of Grace Van Diest in the Juno from Juneau video that ericb posted. Those mothers are not happy with Palin as a role model at all. They do not like the fact that she returned to work three days after giving birth to a special needs infant, and though they recognize that people are fallible, they do see a teenager getting pregnant as a very serious issue that demands lots of hands on parenting that is simply not possible to do while running for Vice Precidency or being a VP, especially not when the other parent also has a full time job.

But some people there are so afraid of Obama that they are unwilling to look at any problems with Palin or her nomination. I think Obama meant well, but his "I would not want my children to be punished with a baby" was poorly worded and really alienated these people. They also have big problems with the fact that he would not sign an act that would save babies that are born alive after a failed abortion attempt. (I worded this as neutral as I could. These are not their words. They see Obama as someone who thinks it is okay to kill babies).
posted by davar at 1:46 AM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

sorry kaibutsu, I have to break the news that huge swaths of the US populace are completely innumerate and suffers from instant-eye-glaze syndrome when numerical tallies of Republican credit largesse are discussed. The important thing for them is that Palin loves the babies and also loves the guns which is why I am starting to entertain the notion that McCain has pulled a master stroke, much like that when Bush I nominated Clarence Thomas to the US Supreme court.

Typically, the dems are accused of "identity politics", but it is the pugs who have mastered the art.
posted by telstar at 1:46 AM on September 4, 2008

It's scary, and it's sad, and it's pathetic.

More than anything, I thought it was shameful. She can speak well and naturally, and she might even be able to engage with an audience that is not a stacked deck like the convention crowd. It's a strength she could have used to say something positive. But she chose to belittle Obama in a manner that he has done to no one, and in a way that, were it directed toward her, would be called out as sexist. She knows what she is doing , which condemns her in that she strategically used her family and their private issues as a vaccine against criticism of her positions and policies. Every claim of sexism that she and Fiorina make is an affront to women who experience the real deal.
posted by troybob at 1:53 AM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

empath: what they take away from that is that the US is a Republic, not a Democracy, cause like the opposite of a Democract is a Republican, duh.
Huh. I had never thought of it that way. Democrats=democracy, republicans=republic. As a european, my heart almost stopped when I read someone argue in all seriousness that America is not a democracy and I am not sure if I should be reassured after the explanations other people gave about this, or even more worried. Democracy is so vital to what I thought western countries stand for. To hear that it is not uncommon to hear Americans say that America is not a democracy, and that that is even tought in schools, is unsettling. They may not understand what they are saying, but still. This is one of those things that IS important to understand.
posted by davar at 1:57 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

This really inspires me to donate to Obama, too. We can't have this in the White House. Bush II is bad enough, Palin looks even worse, if such a thing is possible.
posted by MythMaker at 1:58 AM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Although I am not a believer, I have always thought that much of the philosophy behind Christianity has a lot of merit. The Golden Rule, helping the down-and-out, and so on. I think many of the stories of Jesus in the Bible make him out to be a divine community organizer. How many of the Republicans who laughed at Rudy Giuliani's community organizer mockery were wearing WWJD bracelets?

WWJD? He sure as hell wouldn't support the Republican agenda.

And IIRC, "America is a republic, not a democracy" is one of the main tenets of the John Birch Society.
posted by Daddy-O at 2:08 AM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Ambrosia: The body language between McCain and Palin was fascinating, though- looks to me like they can't stand each other.

Are others seeing this? I'm not in the U.S. and video-challenged today, so I can't tell. I ask because I kept being haunted by an imaginary scenario yesterday... I kept wondering just what would happen if the party were to firmly suggest she regretfully refuse the nomination "for the good of my family, blah, blah." Because I can totally imagine her saying, "sorry boys; thanks, but no thanks. I'll be sticking right here, and if you try to force me out, I'll scream so long and so loud your ears will still be ringing four years from now."

Because, after all, how, in any way, could she creep back to Alaska, after all the dirt dished so far, with any semblance of dignity if the GOP threw her over? I don't know what they could offer her that would convince her - and personal ambition seems like her most fundamental drive, so I don't think "the welfare of the party" would carry much water.

So, I was thinking how interesting it would be if that scenario actually played out, and it turned out that the GOP movers and shakers were suddenly now every bit as terrified as the opposition party that their own ticket might win. How would they spin it out? What would they do to make absolutely sure that their own side didn't win (because they can't risk what she might actually do or say while in office as VP, and even more crucially, of course, what nightmare might unfold if something did happen to McCain), but which would still serve to set them up as much as possible for 2012? Would the "oh noes! the mic was still on!" remarks of Peggy Noonan and Mike Murphy be one of the sorts of things they would do? Would they do something like bring up the supposed affair between Palin and her husband's business acquaintance when nobody on the left was discussing that - and apparently hadn't even actually heard of such a thing?

Just woolgathering... but I do wonder: what would she answer if they asked? What would they do if she answered, "nope, nope"?
posted by taz at 2:25 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

CAN HAZ NEW THREAD NOW?

Amen. Mods, even those of us with supercharged machines are having trouble with the ridiculous length of this thread. Surely another Palin thread won't kill Metafilter. Perhaps if one of you holds off on the next one--just one!--that you'd normally delete.
posted by zardoz at 2:35 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

CAN HAZ NEW THREAD NOW?

But we're so close to 3000 comments! Only 32 to go, by my count.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:43 AM on September 4, 2008

3000! :)
posted by rokusan at 2:45 AM on September 4, 2008

The AP just put this together:

Attacks, praise stretch truth at GOP convention.

Some examples:

PALIN: "I have protected the taxpayers by vetoing wasteful spending ... and championed reform to end the abuses of earmark spending by Congress. I told the Congress 'thanks but no thanks' for that Bridge to Nowhere."

THE FACTS: As mayor of Wasilla, Palin hired a lobbyist and traveled to Washington annually to support earmarks for the town totaling $27 million. In her two years as governor, Alaska has requested nearly $750 million in special federal spending, by far the largest per-capita request in the nation. While Palin notes she rejected plans to build a $398 million bridge from Ketchikan to an island with 50 residents and an airport, that opposition came only after the plan was ridiculed nationally as a "bridge to nowhere."

PALIN: "There is much to like and admire about our opponent. But listening to him speak, it's easy to forget that this is a man who has authored two memoirs but not a single major law or reform — not even in the state senate."

THE FACTS: Compared to McCain and his two decades in the Senate, Obama does have a more meager record. But he has worked with Republicans to pass legislation that expanded efforts to intercept illegal shipments of weapons of mass destruction and to help destroy conventional weapons stockpiles. The legislation became law last year. To demean that accomplishment would be to also demean the work of Republican Sen. Richard Lugar of Indiana, a respected foreign policy voice in the Senate. In Illinois, he was the leader on two big, contentious measures in Illinois: studying racial profiling by police and requiring recordings of interrogations in potential death penalty cases. He also successfully co-sponsored major ethics reform legislation.

And the list goes on and on. This is on the front page of Yahoo.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:56 AM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

But yes, the fact that konolia was the only GOPbot commenting here does suggest that the others have given up trying to defend Palin, or maybe, since most of the others are male, their sexism has trumped their GOP loyalty.

If there is one thing watching Obama has reinforced for me, it is the attitude that most people want to better the world around them, and that trying to engage them positively profits us not just because we can actually start a constructive dialog, but because we aren't miring ourselves in bitterness and negativity. In other words, thinking the best of others puts us in a happier place, and gives us the hope to make positive change.

I would agree with the sentiment that the GOP is amazingly good at staying on message in lockstep, and that all other political parties could learn a lot from their sense of political tactics.
posted by BrotherCaine at 3:05 AM on September 4, 2008

Amen. Mods, even those of us with supercharged machines are having trouble with the ridiculous length of this thread.

Opera is totally snappy in response to this thread, and is _{o_{n_{ly u_{s_{in_{g 1_{3_{8_MB}}}}}}}}
posted by BrotherCaine at 3:13 AM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Democrats=democracy, republicans=republic

Explains a lot, I think. The US wasn't trying to export democracy to Iraq, it was trying to export the Republican style of government.
posted by the duck by the oboe at 3:32 AM on September 4, 2008

Can you all please not taking the bait on the "How dare Democrats condemn Palin's experience when Obama is LESS experienced?!" attacks?

The point is not that she unqualified for the role (though she is, and certainly seems less able than Obama). It is that for the whole campaign before her selection as running mate, the McCain camp were going on about how Obama's experience was inadequate.

The Republicans are successfully framing this in terms of an inexperienced Democrat attacking the Republican VP-candidate for her inexperience, when in fact what the discussion should be about is how McCain has "flip-flopped" on experience.

McCain's campaign should be questioned as to why experience mattered so much pre-Sarah Palin's selection, and now matters not at all - except to those nasty Democrats!
posted by knapah at 3:46 AM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

I just exported this thread to a PDF to read through, as Firefox was struggling a bit (Opera is better).

It came out at 520 pages.

You've written a textbook, folks.
posted by Jimbob at 3:48 AM on September 4, 2008

That would be "stop taking the bait" in the first sentence, obviously...

Oh, and as for her lapel pin, I think it is this one - Blue Star Service Pin.
posted by knapah at 3:55 AM on September 4, 2008

From these clippings:
Palin Explained that She Couldn't Run for Senate Because Then She Couldn't Be the "Team Mom." "A hockey mom and a former standout athlete herself, Palin said she understood her son's concerns. 'How could I be the team mom if I was a U.S. senator?' she said." [Anchorage Daily News (Alaska), 4/24/04]

In the original article summary (the article itself is behind a paywall) it says: Palin said she reached her decision Tuesday, on her son's 14th birthday, when he once again asked her not to run.

Since the GOP makes the fact that Palin is a devoted mother so important to the campaign, and uses pictures of the children for their own goals, I would be interested to hear from Palin how she and Mr Palin plan to combine parenthood and being VP, especially since only four years ago, she herself said that it was impossible to combine being a team mom with being a senator. It seems to me that the challenges as a parent that she faces now (special needs infant, pregnant daughter) are much higher than the difficulties of being a team mom and now we are talking about possible precidency, not senatorship. If the GOP wants to brand her as some kind of supermom who can do it all, shouldn't they also tell us how?
posted by davar at 3:55 AM on September 4, 2008

I've set up a page that shows this thread minus all but the last 100 comments.
posted by cillit bang at 3:57 AM on September 4, 2008 [9 favorites]

You've written a textbook, folks.

Everyone knows a textbook is at least 3000 comments long. It's an old system of measures, like the furlong or the hogshead, but it's real. Look it up if you don't believe me.

Also, I don't how scientifically sound this is, but I think the comparison between Arizona and Illinois is interesting.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:16 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

One of the big roles of the vice president is meeting with foreign dignitaries, a role that doesn't seem suited for someone who didn't get their first passport until last year.

I dunno; buy me a nice suit with matching heels and give me a quick briefing and even I could do THAT.

Konolia, I think you've just done a better job identifying what's wrong with the Republican voter base than anyone else in this thread.
posted by Shepherd at 4:46 AM on September 4, 2008 [27 favorites]

interested to hear from Palin how she and Mr Palin plan to combine parenthood and being VP

That's the first I've heard of anything anecdotal vs. gossipy (Track's "team mom" plea), that involves any kind of *interaction* between Palin and her children -- which I've felt is lacking in presentation of her as *uber-mom*.
I was expecting to see more snapshots of them together doing family stuff, or hear her make some kind of reference to her kids the way public family-paragons sort of "weave" in little tales about "what Susie said" or "Johnny did" that inform one's twenty years raising kids.
Esp. because she is trumpeting this, being a mother, as a strength. Even if personal weaknesses of said kids are off limits, I can't help but look for signs of warmth and recognition, even fleetingly, from her toward the brood -- describing a moment that made her proud to be a mom, would have been welcome.
I hope I'm not gullibly taking the bait on another rumor, but the mudflats.wordpress blogger asserts the Palin kids stay farmed out with different relatives while both parents work. WSJ hailed her 7-10-mile-a-day workout which surely eats as much as 2 hours out of each day -- I just don't see what time is left over to tend to the needs of each of four (now 5) kids. I never thought I'd be the one to come across as criticizing working mothers (I was raised by one) but, the ring of the genuine article falls hollow here for me.
And "home-schooling" Bristol so she can continue her education? Who's going to do that? Surely not Mom, and is Dad ready at a moment's notice to become an educator? It's called *tutoring* I believe, though that sounds too elite for most right-wingers who self-proclaim their penchant for home-schooling narcissism.
posted by skyper at 4:50 AM on September 4, 2008

286 pages, according to Mac OS X's Print to PDF.
posted by emelenjr at 4:52 AM on September 4, 2008

Megami: No. Unless you're a green card holder...

http://www.fec.gov/ans/answers_general.shtml#Can_nonUS_citizens_contribute
posted by knapah at 5:00 AM on September 4, 2008

I gave $200 to Obama in two separate $100 chunks last night. One when Palin started speaking. The other when she stopped. I was so fucking grossed out by that smarmy, nasty, bitter, mean-spirited woman parading her children around like political props while looking -- to my eye -- rather afraid to have them touch her on stage.

I have never been more repulsed by a politician than I was by Palin in the flesh. That includes Dick Cheney. She's a satanic monstrosity.

I bet Obama had a great fundraising night last night.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:02 AM on September 4, 2008 [11 favorites]

I think the speech was a miscalculation. They'd already sold Palin to the base. What they needed to do was reassure moderates. I don't think they did that with that speech.

I'm sure religious conservatives are fired up right now, but you know what? As is quite obvious in this thread, so are liberals. And given that Democratic-affiliated voters outnumber Republican-affiliated voters 47%-37%, any strategy that involves whipping up both bases is a serious loser for the GOP.
posted by EarBucket at 5:20 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Konolia is very effective, she just made the Obama campaign $60.
posted by Skorgu at 5:25 AM on September 4, 2008

I have never been more repulsed by a politician than I was by Palin in the flesh. That includes Dick Cheney. She's a satanic monstrosity.

Have they ever been seen together? They say Cheney is in Georgia, but makeup - is there anything it can't do?
posted by lukemeister at 5:28 AM on September 4, 2008

Karl Rove on Palin's experience
posted by drezdn at 5:29 AM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

I have NEVER EVER seen this level of excitement in a political race. EVER.
- konolia

I have. When Pat Robertson ran in 1988.

As evidence by her screed-like speech last night, Palin might "fire up the base", but she's Dr. Laura, perhaps elevated her stature at the far right fringe of the party, but she's too relentlessly bleak in her view to garner sympathy among the fence-sitters. Negativity like that, even from a 2d banana is not going tolerated with 2 months left in the race. It will start to wear on people, and whatever bump they get from this, will be gone in a couple of weeks.

Hell, even Cheney's messages were positive during the 2000 and 2004 races. Bush/Cheney left the vitriol to their extended network.
posted by psmealey at 5:54 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

billyfleetwood said:

1996-2002
Sarah Palin Was Mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, a town of approx. 7,000. She was elected by a margin of 909 to 292 votes. I will be fair, and giver her credit for executive experience. It must be noted, however that the average college president presides over a larger community and larger budget. Also more votes are tallied in an average Triple A high school Student Council Election.

The important thing left out of your account is that when she was mayor, she was forced to turn over much of the responsibility of her job to an administrator, when she was faced with a recall election due to some improper firings. So the much-heralded "executive experience" she got as mayor seems, in reality, to have been a failure ... when her own constituents basically forced her to hand over her power to someone else. That sounds like a pretty big deal --- but hardly anyone mentions it in describing her earlier career.
posted by jayder at 5:55 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

You know what else the executive branch is supposed to do? Enforce the fucking laws!

Something we haven't seen at all over the last 8 years. We've seen nothing but contempt for the law. Moreover, these people can't govern for shit because our budget is out of control and under their watch we've had this ridiculous war, allowed successful attacks terrorist attacks on our soil and bungled the relief of a major natural disaster. Just to name the headline acts.

So excuse me if trotting out 3 fucking years in Wasilla doesn't make me cream my pants in confidence. I want someone in there that RESPECTS the law and KNOWS the law, you know, like a constitutional lawyer concerned with CIVIL RIGHTS?

Take this executive experience bullshit and shove it and come back a few years and maybe, just maybe, you can sit at the adult table.
posted by milarepa at 6:08 AM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Sorry for the blink tag :(
posted by milarepa at 6:10 AM on September 4, 2008

"It's not surprising, then, that they get bitter, they cling to guns or religion or antipathy to people who aren't like them"

Oh my god Barack already knew Sarah Palin!
posted by dydecker at 6:12 AM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

I find it substantially different from what happened at the DNC because the DNC aimed to uplift and inspire its audience; the RNC dragged them into the mud, and they enjoyed it a bit too much.

Insert "don't wrestle with a pig, you'll get dirty and the pig likes it" joke here.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 6:14 AM on September 4, 2008

WWJD? He sure as hell wouldn't support the Republican agenda.

Are you sure about that?
posted by Flunkie at 6:15 AM on September 4, 2008

lets lay off personal attacks on konolia please. I know you guys have a lot of republican hate right now, but don't take it out on her.

Also, laying off calling individuals unchristian would be great too.
posted by garlic at 6:16 AM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

My proposed end to this thread:

The End
posted by mazola at 6:17 AM on September 4, 2008

3000 comments? wow.
posted by NortonDC at 6:17 AM on September 4, 2008

He was president of the Harvard law review.

I'm with y'all on the "he's more experienced" thing, but I think folks should stop trotting this out as though it somehow prepared him to be President of the entire United States. It's a law review journal that publishes articles about legal issues. For a year, he had a say in which articles got picked to publish and how the review was run. That's it. I was an articles editor of a different law review, and I don't pretend that this somehow qualifies me for a lesser elected office. C'mon, folks, we're not that desperate to defend his experience!

I watched Palin's speech last night and was simultaneously entranced and appalled. She can deliver a speech, and she will appeal to a certain demographic. Her negativism turned me off, but I wonder how the electorate will feel after two months of these potshots on the Republican side as faced up against the refusal to go deeply negative on the Obama team. I hope we win, but I'm worried.
posted by onlyconnect at 6:20 AM on September 4, 2008

I think this HuffPo posting is worth reading.

Palin's speech was essentially a provocation: an invitation to get us so hopping mad that we can't respond responsibly; to incite us into such pure fury that fury is the only thing we can think; that we want next-to-the-bone red meat torn from the thigh of some Republican gazelle. It's a speech designed to turn off the censoring functions of our frontal lobes, and leave us gibbering freaks lusting for the blood of the GOP faithful.

Thankfully, we get a night to sleep on this. Because it is precisely what the RNC has designed the speech to do. That contrast between the kind mother with 'good character' and the infuriated liberals yelling about something or other is the goal.

In other words, hyperbole like "She's a satanic monstrosity"--that's playing right into their game. They're betting that it will turn enough people off to make a difference. They may be right.
posted by neroli at 6:23 AM on September 4, 2008 [8 favorites]

that's playing right into their game.

Indeed. The past 8 years have been Republican. Make McCain own that and if you have time, point out a few of the lies Palin has told. But don't make her the center of attention, she's just the VP. Nail McCain and his party to the wall on the current state of America.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:29 AM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Why is "community organizer" a punchline?

because it's code for "nigger", wake up. it's pure, unadulterated Southern Strategy code.
posted by matteo at 6:35 AM on September 4, 2008 [10 favorites]

I wonder how the electorate will feel after two months of these potshots on the Republican side as faced up against the refusal to go deeply negative on the Obama team.

Who says they won't go negative. They've done it in the past when things got tough against Clinton (in the PA Primary, for example). And they've already put out a flier hitting her over her corruption and fiscal issues.

If I were in the Obama camp, I'd go after her hard on her record maladministration and personal vendetta's she's accumulated in Alaska, but ignore the personal stuff. The McCain camp wants to make it seem like she's being attacked for her family life, but that's all being done by the media, not the Obama campaign.

Obama needs to go on the air to 'define' Palin ASAP. People need how she fires people, blows through money, sucks down federal pork and lies about it, and they need to make it clear that they're hitting her on substantive issues, not family issues.
posted by delmoi at 6:36 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Why is "community organizer" a punchline?

... it's pure, unadulterated Southern Strategy code.

Uh, no it's not. Why do you want to assume race has anything to do with this?

Let's not go there.
posted by konolia at 6:40 AM on September 4, 2008

You know who else was a community organizer? That's right. This guy.
posted by EarBucket at 6:41 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I have NEVER EVER seen this level of excitement in a political race. EVER.
- konolia

I have. When Pat Robertson ran in 1988.

Not even close. Come on, him running for president was kinda ridiculous.
posted by konolia at 6:42 AM on September 4, 2008

I just donated for Obama - for the first time ever to a campaign. I think it's contagious.
posted by yeti at 6:48 AM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Obama needs to go on the air to 'define' Palin ASAP. People need how she fires people, blows through money, sucks down federal pork and lies about it, and they need to make it clear that they're hitting her on substantive issues, not family issues.

I disagree. The McCain camp has already showed their skill at jujitsu moves which blur the line between "smear" and "valid question." For a lot of people, "hitting her on substantive issues" is just going to look like hitting her. The Republicans want to make her the focus. John McCain should be the focus.

I think Obama's people did just the right thing: they pointed out that Palin's speech was written by Bush speechwriter Matthew Scully.

I think that's a pretty effective response: Sarah Palin did a great job reading a George W. Bush speech. Remember him?
posted by neroli at 6:49 AM on September 4, 2008 [6 favorites]

I also just donated to Obama. First time I've ever given money to a candidate.
posted by birdherder at 6:50 AM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

Politically, the K lady has been pitching nothing more than slightly-reworded content from the Official Rush/Rove Daily TalkingPoints Email for a long time. Same stuff I see injected into comment threads elsewhere on the Web. Including "everyone I have talked to is sooo excited about Palin" which is what they have been telling all their Comment Trolls (and CommentBots) to say since the moment they got over the shock of her selection. Never judge anything as true based on the number of Republicans saying it. They have mastered the Lock-Step Analysis (even while they battle each other fiercely behind the scenes). The Rush/Rove Daily Email is very widely distributed.

Excuse me? I am SEEING and HEARING the excitement.

I don't do talking points. And 90 percent of what I am reading regarding this campaign is on this thread.
posted by konolia at 6:56 AM on September 4, 2008

Indeed. The past 8 years have been Republican. Make McCain own that and if you have time, point out a few of the lies Palin has told. But don't make her the center of attention, she's just the VP. Nail McCain and his party to the wall on the current state of America.

Palin is the center of attention, and dosn't have the good will built up over decades like McCain has, going after her would be comparatively easy (but keep it classy, don't hit her over family issues). If I were running the campaign, I would try to make the point that McCain clearly is under control of the hard-core right wingers, and Palin is indicative of that, they, and her will be in power.

And they need to point out the very real possibility that she could become president in the next four years if McCain wins. When Reagan ran he had H.W. Bush as his running mate, clearly someone capable of taking over if Reagan kicked the bucket. But Palin? Can you imagine her as president?

So if I were running the Obama campaign, and obviously I'm not, I'd try very hard in the next few days to hit her hard. Define her as Dick Nixon and Heck of a Job Brownie all rolled into one, and make sure people understand she could be president.

And I know it's kind of mean, but you'd want to insinuate that Palin and the base wears the pants in the McCain/Palin relationship. She's clearly more charismatic, more vivacious, more newsworthy, more loved by the base then McCain, and clearly she was forced down his throat. McCain's not making the decisions anymore -- the "original maverick" has been clearly co-opted by the nut bar brigade that Palin clearly represents. Make sure people understand that.

Or they could take the high road and let Palin alienate the true "middle" America all on her own, which she seems to be doing (It will be interesting to see what kind of "bounce" McCain gets out of this)
posted by delmoi at 6:59 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think Obama's people did just the right thing: they pointed out that Palin's speech was written by Bush speechwriter Matthew Scully. . . . I think that's a pretty effective response: Sarah Palin did a great job reading a George W. Bush speech. Remember him?

Repeated for truth.
posted by onlyconnect at 7:02 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Why do you want to assume race has anything to do with this?

Because this is America, and your party has spent the last forty years making racist appeals to you and yours.

Yes, you.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:03 AM on September 4, 2008 [6 favorites]

I have NEVER EVER seen this level of excitement in a political race. EVER.
- konolia

For your party's sake, I hope so, konolia, because if McCain loses a state like North Carolina, then the election is likely an electoral college blow-out. As others have pointed out, McCain is going to have to do better than fire up his own base. Obama was never going to have your vote, or the vote of your fellow gym member, or the votes of most of the people in your prayer group. The best Democrats could hope from conservative Christians was to stay home on election day, and given McCain's historical antagonistic relationship with the religious right, this was a possibility.

McCain was smart enough to know that winning the base is necessary, but not sufficient, to win in November. So, he chose Palin, who was his best chance to appeal to both religious types and moderates/independents (Pawlenty was a distant second in this regard). I think it will take time to see if Palin has cross-over appeal, but based on her speech last night, she's running the risk of coming across as too mean to do that. Does she think that belittling community organizing will accomplish that task?

Fundamentally, McCain is in a stronger place than he was two weeks ago, because he is now fully accepted within the party. But just as fundamentally, McCain is still behind in this race, and he has to turn to independents to take him over the top. I don't think Palin will be able to make that connection, McCain is going to have to do it mostly on his own. Therefore, after the convention is over, I don't think the general public will see a lot of Sarah Palin, but she will be on 700 Club/mega-church/evangelical broadcast circuit every day for the next two months.
posted by thewittyname at 7:05 AM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

And they need to point out the very real possibility that she could become president in the next four years if McCain wins. When Reagan ran he had H.W. Bush as his running mate, clearly someone capable of taking over if Reagan kicked the bucket. But Palin? Can you imagine her as president?

Um, are you serious? Remember when Clinton mentioned Bobby Kennedy? Can you imagine the shitstorm if the Obama camp began making insinuations that McCain would die? That's pretty much the ultimate political no-no.
posted by nasreddin at 7:08 AM on September 4, 2008

And I know it's kind of mean, but you'd want to insinuate that Palin and the base wears the pants in the McCain/Palin relationship.

I strongly disagree and think regular people don't care about this sort of inside politics charge. You will lose their interest and get them thinking you're some sort of nutty conspiracy theorist. And frankly I think it's a convincing story that he picked her because she's a maverick like him; it fits his public image. I just think this argument is a loser.

I also think neroli has it completely right that Palin should not be the focus of the major attacks. Make a few substantive attacks, I think, on her record (and as neroli said on the fact that she just gave a speech written by a Bush speechwriter), but keep your eye on the ball: John McCain. I'll be interested in what sort of speech he gives tonight, and that will help bring the focus back to him where it belongs.
posted by onlyconnect at 7:10 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Listen, I am a huge Obama supporter. Listening to his acceptance speech was like hearing all my hopes of what a president could be, times ten. I so, so desperately want him to be president.

But Guiliani & Sarah Palin's speeches last night were extremely effective, in a way that we haven't seen from McCain's campaign so far. I don't know if they got Karl Rove to come back or what, but the Republican machine is back in action as of tonight.

People's opinions about the candidates in the last two elections have essentially been determined by the caricatures put forth by opinion articles and Saturday Night Live. Bush was a plain-talking cowboy. Maybe a little dim, but that just makes it more impressive when he can get through a debate without falling over. Gore was a stiff, sighing nerd. Kerry was a flip-flopping elitist. Once the media and comedians establish that framework, every news item that comes up gets pegged into it. Obama has been very successful so far at avoiding this kind of caricature. The contest has been framed so far as the inspirational agent of hope vs. the cranky old man. Change vs. More of the Same.

Last night, the Republicans finally figured out how to reframe the race. This was the theme of the night, hammered in ruthlessly over and over again: paint Obama as the do-nothing big talker vs. the experienced maverick reformer. The Empty Suit vs. the War Hero. And they did it with self-confidence, assurance, and humor, which John McCain has been utterly incapable of doing himself.

When McCain tries to tell a joke in his speeches, it's just sad and awkward for all involved. By contrast, Guiliani & Palin both did a great job delivering their lines and getting laughs. They included the audience, making it seem as if their point of view was self-evident and already shared by the public. If the comedians and media buy this storyline, soon it was be treated as established fact.

The real test will be on September 13, when Saturday Night Live comes back. If they continue their caricature of Obama as too-good-to-be-true and adored by the press, we'll be fine. But if they start painting him as a hypocritical windbag who hasn't done anything, I worry that we'll have another 2000 on our hands. It is absolutely critical for Obama's campaign to aggressively prevent McCain from derailing this election into a referendum on "experience."
posted by designbot at 7:11 AM on September 4, 2008 [6 favorites]

I disagree. The McCain camp has already showed their skill at jujitsu moves which blur the line between "smear" and "valid question." For a lot of people, "hitting her on substantive issues" is just going to look like hitting her.

What's wrong with hitting her?

Here's the thing, if you hit her, the republicans are going to whine about it, they're going to call sexism, and they'll milk it for sympathy. But if you don't hit her they'll pretend you did and do all those things anyway so avoiding hitting her won't help you that much, as long as they're not cheap shots.
posted by delmoi at 7:15 AM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

I was expecting to see more snapshots of them together doing family stuff, or hear her make some kind of reference to her kids the way public family-paragons sort of "weave" in little tales about "what Susie said" or "Johnny did" that inform one's twenty years raising kids.

I heard, I think it was one of the political Twitter feeds I follow, that Rudy went over on his alloted time, and they had to cut the introductory video that was going to precede Palin's speech. Which makes sense- she did seem to come out awful fast after he was done speaking.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:16 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Can you imagine the shitstorm if the Obama camp began making insinuations that McCain would die?

This is true, but at the same time, realistically speaking, the reason in most folks mind that the VP is important is because the President might die. It's implicit.

Also, when Clinton invoked RFK's death, the reason it was SO uncomfortable was the parallels with Obama - hopeful, charismatic young candidate stricken down, and it's already fairly terrifying to think too hard about the threats many of us assume are out ther to Obama.

Acknowledging the mortality of a 72 year old cancer survivor, in the context of his choice of successor, is not in bad taste. It's practical.
posted by dirtdirt at 7:16 AM on September 4, 2008

There is one fundamental difference I see between GWB and Palin:

GWB is an affected fake cowboy, after being born into Massachusetts royalty he moved to Texas to dodge the draft via his Father's influence, and then idled as an executive at some of his family's oil service companies.

Sarah Palin is an actual prole.
posted by blasdelf at 7:22 AM on September 4, 2008

I bet Obama had a great fundraising night last night.

I voted for Obama in the primaries, but I'd held off donating money, partly because I was disappointed by his FISA vote. Last night, during Palin's speech, I finally got my credit card out.

Palin might energize the evangelical base for the Republican party, but the speeches last night, not just hers but Giulani and Huckabee too, made me realize that I've been too complacent, assuming that this country wouldn't elect another far right Republican administration.

I feel pretty energized myself now. Obama had my vote, but the RNC pushed me to decide that he'll also have my money and my time as a volunteer.
posted by gladly at 7:25 AM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

Fundamentally, McCain is in a stronger place than he was two weeks ago, because he is now fully accepted within the party

And that is a major, major accomplishment. Nothing at all to sneeze at.

Please also remember that people who are lukewarm don't contribute to campaigns, work phones, have signs in their yards, etc. etc. Having Palin on the ticket has lit a fire under a lot of Republican butts...
posted by konolia at 7:27 AM on September 4, 2008

Only in America can a person with ties to a quasi separatist organization and is a parent to a pregnant teenager be considered more wholesome and 'all American' than someone who came up through adversity, raised by a single mother, worked hard, paid for his/her education through scholarships and then rose to the highest level of government.

Having Palin on the ticket has lit a fire under a lot of Republican butts...

Yeah, if only.... but they'll have to wait until judgement day to be tossed into the Lake of Fire in retribution for their selfishness, callousness and hypocrisy.
posted by psmealey at 7:30 AM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

This whole talk about Sarah Palin being inexperienced is a red herring, just like the pregnancy thing.

Think about it for a second: What does experience in this connection mean? It means that you are familiar enough with the system in order to get things done. It means that you know which buttons need to be pressed in order to get a certain result.

Now, would you seriously prefer a Sarah Palin that knows how to work the system? That is able to push through her crazy ideas from day one of her presidency?

The question should not be whether she is experienced enough, but rather, assuming that she is experienced enough to handle the job, what she would do with that experience. And I can only see scary shit, such as banning books, further curtailing civil liberties, canning the people who do not agree with her on everything, dishing out contracts for drilling in Alaska while at the same time accusing your political opponents to have handed billions of dollars to the oil industry, cutting taxes for the rich etc. etc. Basically more Bush.

In summary, she's definitely ruthless enough for the job, but an experienced Sarah Palin is much scarier than an inexperienced one.
posted by sour cream at 7:30 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

my time as a volunteer.

Yup.
posted by cavalier at 7:31 AM on September 4, 2008

lets lay off personal attacks on konolia please. I know you guys have a lot of republican hate right now, but don't take it out on her.

I see a lot of respect and goodwill being doled out to konolia in this thread; not so much the personal attacks. My last response to konolia, for instance, didn't make any sort of assault on her character, but laid out the fact that insamuch as she can be assumed to share a moral sense and worldview with many of her Republican fellow travellers, her view of international relations -- that just any ol' person could do that if you slap some fancy clothes and a quick briefing on 'em -- illustrates, in microcosm, the America-First worldview that characterizes a large part of the moral divide between the left and right in America.

Mind you, complaining that the criticism of somebody's publicly stated ideals or actions makes the critic a mean ol' bully... that has a certain resonance here, doesn't it? It's a tactic that's been used recently in some political campaign, I'm sure of it. Can't quite put my finger on it, though.
posted by Shepherd at 7:31 AM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

One of the things I thought was intereseting last night whas how that the republican national convention, they are pushing the fac that their candidates were /are pushing back against the republican party in ethics issues and policiy issues. Anti- lobbiest McCain is our candidate to the crowd that last night went to lobbyist packed parties the night before. It feels like more of the gritting your teeth must be going on in the republican party, having to try to sell their candidates to the independents and social conservative democrats.
posted by garlic at 7:35 AM on September 4, 2008

Um, are you serious? Remember when Clinton mentioned Bobby Kennedy? Can you imagine the shitstorm if the Obama camp began making insinuations that McCain would die? That's pretty much the ultimate political no-no.

There is a huge difference between pointing out that a 72 year old man might die of natural causes (which is certainly true) and that Obama might get assassinated in the next few weeks. And frankly MSM reporters have been talking about this as well, it's already being discussed.

Obama even talks about how he feels comfortable knowing that Biden could step in "should something happen" to him, and McCain has said in the past that was the most important criteria. After all, taking over for the president is the main job of the VP.

I strongly disagree and think regular people don't care about this sort of inside politics charge. You will lose their interest and get them thinking you're some sort of nutty conspiracy theorist.

First of all, I said "insinuate", not say. The Obama campaign at making subtle references to the candidates age -- talking about how McCain "lost his barings" how McCain "couldn't remember" (as opposed to not knowing in the first place) how many houses he owned. You wouldn't do an add where you just come out and say you think Palin is in charge, you'd find some pithy way to insinuate it.

Anyway, I just think hitting Palin now while the public is still getting to know her is really important. It would be a tragedy if she were able to get away with this "maverick reformer" image when in fact she's been anything but.
posted by delmoi at 7:40 AM on September 4, 2008

It feels like more of the gritting your teeth must be going on in the republican party

Same as it ever was. These were the same charlatans that sold us the President's son (and Senator's grand son) who attended Andover, Yale and Harvard as reg'lar folks good ole boy who didn't talk down to us, and the divorced, estranged from his kids Hollywood actor as the champion of "family values".
posted by psmealey at 7:41 AM on September 4, 2008

I don't think that those who support the Christian Fascists against their own financial interests are stupid. I think they are so ground down by the difficulties of just surviving on low pay in crap jobs, let alone trying to support a family while driving 2 hours a day to jobs that pay barely above minimum wage and last for 6 months at a time that they don't have the time nor the energy to do more than give a cursory check to candidates.

Those people need national health care, good paying, steady jobs, etc.

The cynical puppetmaster Christian Fascists who are manipulating the good people of America...they are the enemy.
posted by QIbHom at 7:47 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

The term who? still comes to mind. Just think if elected she would be a stroke away from president. If Mccain wanted to shock the world with a female VP he should have asked Hillary... Obama/Biden Nov 08!!
posted by Mastercheddaar at 7:47 AM on September 4, 2008

No too many people in the thread will agree with her, but regardless, that was a great speech. What she needed to do is show that despite her rather thin resume she has what it takes to lead, that she is not just some hick beauty queen with a lust for power. This speech went a long way towards that goal. I still think she is a hick beauty queen who lusts for power and is not yet qualified to be president, but she is sharp, aggressive, knows how to deliver a speech with fervor. Many people were laughing about how Biden was likely to wipe the floor with her in a debate. I think he better come prepared. She will. She has been portrayed as kind of a joke in the media all week. She has at least showed that she is no joke.

Also, I am glad to see McCain and his minions firing back at the media. That is the best thing that could happen. Maybe the media will now stop giving him a pass on every gaff, and better yet figure out that he is no longer the maverick he was eight years ago and he has given up on straight talking.
posted by caddis at 7:50 AM on September 4, 2008

Here's the thing, if you hit her, the republicans are going to whine about it, they're going to call sexism, and they'll milk it for sympathy.

... and then kick you in the nuts.
posted by mkultra at 7:54 AM on September 4, 2008

Uh, no it's not. Why do you want to assume race has anything to do with this?

Because of the Republican Party's longstanding antipathy towards black people and their 40-year history of directly appealing to southern racists using the threat of black people.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:55 AM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

billyfleetwood -- so well said! I want you on my debate team!
posted by ericb at 7:56 AM on September 4, 2008

I don't do talking points.

No? No, indeed. You don't do talking points. Talking points do you.

Seriously, and with all due respect, thank you for the opportunity to read your comments in a much clearer light.
posted by Balonious Assault at 7:56 AM on September 4, 2008

Having Palin on the ticket has lit a fire under a lot of Republican butts...

I'm not really understanding why this is. Her positions on the issues issues are pretty much exactly the same as McCain's. Is the creationism really that important, or is it the fact that she had a downs syndrome baby?

Plus I'm still seeing the pregnant teenage daughter as a huge negative for her. During the Lewinsky scandal, the talking heads were always asking, "what are parents going to tell their children when they ask what oral sex is?" Well, what are conservative parents going to tell their kids when they ask why is it ok for Bristol Palin to have sex? The hardcore base was going to be fired up by the political networks in their churches, Palin isn't going to have anything but negative effects on othe parts of the population.
posted by afu at 7:58 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm not really understanding why this is. Her positions on the issues issues are pretty much exactly the same as McCain's.

I think it's because McCain's position on (rhymes with smushsmorshmun) is not authentic. Though his stance on it is consistent with doctrinaire right wing belief, it's not coming from a deeply held religious belief, so it's suspect.

No too many people in the thread will agree with her, but regardless, that was a great speech.

With all due respect to her ability to deliver, the speech itself was written weeks ago, for someone else... for anyone else. Like Greg Brady, she "fit the suit".
posted by psmealey at 8:06 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Or they could take the high road and let Palin alienate the true "middle" America all on her own, which she seems to be doing (It will be interesting to see what kind of "bounce" McCain gets out of this)

You mean the Palin bump?
posted by rokusan at 8:09 AM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

The Palinist fist bump?
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:21 AM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Well, I'll say one nice thing about Palin. She's made me far more interested in Alaska than I was before.
posted by Bookhouse at 8:25 AM on September 4, 2008

Is "community organizer" some kind of racial code phrase I'm not supposed to know about?

I get the feeling it is, that it's supposed to bring to mind Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson.

Exactly. Who gets described by the press as "community organizers"? It's pretty much all black people. But the phrase has deniability, because there certainly are white community organizers. Expect to see a lot more of that sort of thing from Rove and his buddies: reminding racist voters that Obama is black by saying things that you can't quite pin down as racial code phrases, but that really have no other good explanation.
posted by klausness at 8:27 AM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

Some friends and I watched some of the RNC last night and played a drinking game with the coverage. We would drink every time we saw a minority that wasn't a journalist. Two drinks when a minority was being interviewed. We had to actually cheat to get drunk...after an hour I'd only had one beer.

Palin isn't a maverick. She's the fucking Smiler from Transmetropolitan.

I <3 XQUZYPHYR, qtf.
posted by schyler523 at 8:31 AM on September 4, 2008

....so, tell me again, why didn't the Democrats nominate Hillary? She had more experience than anybody.......

Because having experience is like having an unusually large penis. I mean, it's a neat thing to have, and in some situations it might come in handy -- but it doesn't really matter all that much and if you keep waving it in people's faces, they will generally run away.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 8:34 AM on September 4, 2008 [10 favorites]

Here's another reason to go after Palin more then McCain, and try to insinuate that she's running the show. It's bound to seriously piss off McCain. And I realize that's mean spirited but fuck it.
posted by delmoi at 8:41 AM on September 4, 2008

@afu It’s not that Bristol had sex, it’s that she didn’t get an abortion and is supposedly getting married. I would like to know, however, why Bristol’s pregnancy is a private family matter that is off limits, but the son and nephew going to Iraq is front and center? Didn’t see Joe Biden waving that particular flag, but I guess the Democrats have both class and an actual program, so they think they don’t need to show their tits. (oops, sorry, sexist reference my bad) Oh, wait, I’m sorry, forgot about the Republican double standard. I just keep flashing on how Geraldine Ferraro’s family was so not off-limits that her husband and her son actually ended up in jail on arguably community service-worthy, if not actually trumped-up, offenses.
posted by nax at 8:52 AM on September 4, 2008

My friend wrote a pretty funny comic about this.
posted by empath at 8:54 AM on September 4, 2008

Or, you know, maybe someone needs to remind Sarah Palin that Jesus Christ was a community organizer and Pontius Pilate was a governor.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 8:54 AM on September 4, 2008 [71 favorites]

So much for charges of elitism leveled at the Democrats.

Vanity Fair reports that Cindy ("We Don't Know How Many Houses We Own") McCain wore a $300,000 outfit to the GOP convention.
posted by ericb at 8:59 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Having Palin on the ticket has lit a fire under a lot of Republican butts...

Unfortunately, the entire right wing base was farting in collective excitement at the exact same moment, and a huge methane gas explosion has stunk up the entire place.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:02 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Michigan independents on Sarah Palin:

“I was completely underwhelmed. She was a Republican novelty act with a sophomoric script. It was not even a speech I would expect for a someone running for the local PTA, much less for vice president.”

-- George Lentz, 66, Southfield independent

“Who is Sarah Palin? I'm sorry but I still don't know anymore about this young lady tonight than I did last night ... The way it looks to me, she's the Republican vice presidential nominee for one reason: because Hillary wasn't selected.”

-- Mike Kosh, 38, West Bloomfield independent

"Sarah Palin is a self-described ‘pitbull with lipstick.’ She spent little time helping Americans learn who she is. She is a cool, poised speaker, but her speech contained few statements about policy or the party platform. … I am not convinced that Palin's experience as a mayor or governor in Alaska meet the qualifications to be vice president much less one stroke or heart attack away from being commander in chief.”

-- Ilene Beninson, 52, Berkley independent

“Nothing worked for me. I found her barrage of snide remarks and distortions to be a major turn off. She is not a class act. The most important point she made is that she will be an effective attack dog.”

-- Jan Wheelock, 58, Royal Oak independent

“Sarah got as much applause as Hillary did, and had a friendly, appealing appearance. Her delivery style reminded me of a high school valedictorian who also might have been a cheerleader. I thought she would appear more professional, more stateswomanly. She's no match for Joe Biden.”

-- Joellen Gilchrist, 64, Beverly Hills independent

posted by ericb at 9:04 AM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

I am saying that it is wrong for the Democrats to claim Palin is less qualified than he. It is a ridiculous argument and it's time to drop it.

I completely respect your choice to vote for Palin on the basis of single-issue voting about abortion. That is your right as an American. In fact, it would be a perfectly acceptable argument to state that stopping abortion is so important that it trumps the "experience" issue. But please do not insult my intelligence by claiming that Palin is more qualified than Barack Obama. I won election for Student Council President in my senior year of high school with a larger vote margin than Sarah Palin won in her election as mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, but that doesn't make me any more qualified for an executive position than she is.

And you may feel free to dismiss what I say as the words of a secular elitist liberal, but here's another article that quotes a leading evangelical Christian who has criticized how other evangelicals have overlooked Palin's qualifications:

But there's something else going on here, and it has at least one Christian leader worried. Mark DeMoss, former chief of staff to Jerry Falwell and now a leading Christian public relations executive, is hoping that Palin turns out well but has been shocked and worried by the reflexive Christian embrace of her.

"Too many evangelicals and religious conservative are too preoccupied with values and faith and pay no attention to competence. We don't apply this approach to anything else in life, including choosing a pastor." Imagine, he said, if a church was searching for a pastor and the leadership was brought a candidate with great values but little experience. "They've been a pastor for two years at a church with 150 people but he shares our values, so we hired him to be pastor of our 5,000 person church? It wouldn't happen! We don't say, 'He shares our values, so let's hire him.' That's absurd. Yet we apply that to choosing presidents. It blows my mind."
posted by jonp72 at 9:04 AM on September 4, 2008 [9 favorites]

Jesus Christ was a community organizer
As my almost 4 y/o god daughter has started saying about everything, 'um...no'.
posted by dawson at 9:10 AM on September 4, 2008

Heil McCain!
posted by ericb at 9:12 AM on September 4, 2008

I suppose this attack on community organisers means that the Republicans are no longer fans of Bush style "compassionate conservatism"... Wasn't community organising a key part of his "Faith Based and Community Initiatives" Office?
posted by knapah at 9:20 AM on September 4, 2008

Yeah, I donated to Obama's campaign this morning, too. I know that Metafilter isn't an accurate sample, but I have to wonder how much money Palin's speech has raised for him.
posted by Ruki at 9:33 AM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

A Focus groups in michiga and two seperate focus groups in Nevada show Independent voters don't like Palin.

In the "married" group, when one attendee kicked off the discussion by saying "she's a good speaker, and a crowd pleaser," the rest of the room articulated their agreement. "I didn't expect to be as impressed as I was," said another respondent. But then another woman added: "Once she started mudslinging, I thought, it's the same old crap as other politicians. McCain used her to get the women's vote. And she's using McCain."

posted by delmoi at 9:33 AM on September 4, 2008

Yet another first-time donor to a political campaign right here. Man, I hope Obama's getting a boost from this.
posted by gaspode at 9:39 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

zardoz writes "Amen. Mods, even those of us with supercharged machines are having trouble with the ridiculous length of this thread. Surely another Palin thread won't kill Metafilter. Perhaps if one of you holds off on the next one--just one!--that you'd normally delete."

I'm running FF3 on a medium machine and while slow loading this thread isn't bringing my machine down. Are any of you having trouble viewing the thread running Metafilter greasemonkey scripts? I'd imagine some of those, like the one that counts comments, would take quite a bit of processing power and memory. Maybe turn them off for the duration?
posted by Mitheral at 9:42 AM on September 4, 2008

I'd like to encourage anyone who was moved to donate to head down to your local Obama campaign office and volunteer. It doesn't really require a huge time committment; you can put in 2-3 hours on a Sunday afternoon. My fiancee and I both work and we're raising three kids, including 10-month-old twins. If we've got time to work to get him elected, you do too.
posted by EarBucket at 9:45 AM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

As was said before, swatting the media only riles them up!

Why the media should apologize

“On behalf of the media, I would like to say we are sorry.

On behalf of the elite media, I would like to say we are very sorry.

We have asked questions this week that we should never have asked.

We have asked pathetic questions like: Who is Sarah Palin? What is her record? Where does she stand on the issues? And is she is qualified to be a heartbeat away from the presidency?

We have asked mean questions like: How well did John McCain know her before he selected her? How well did his campaign vet her? And was she his first choice?

Bad questions. Bad media. Bad.

It is not our job to ask questions. Or it shouldn’t be. To hear from the pols at the Republican National Convention this week, our job is to endorse and support the decisions of the pols.

Sarah Palin hit the nail on the head Wednesday night (and several in the audience wish she had hit some reporters on the head instead) when she said: ‘I’m not a member of the permanent political establishment. And I’ve learned quickly, these past few days, that if you’re not a member in good standing of the Washington elite, then some in the media consider a candidate unqualified for that reason alone.’

But where did we go wrong with Sarah Palin? Let me count the ways:

First, we should have stuck to the warm, human interest stuff like how she likes mooseburgers and hit an important free throw at her high school basketball tournament even though she had a stress fracture.

Second, we should have stuck to the press release stuff like how she opposed the Bridge to Nowhere (after she supported it).

Third, we should never have strayed into the other stuff. Like when The Washington Post recently wrote: ‘Palin is under investigation by a bipartisan state legislative body. … Palin had promised to cooperate with the legislative inquiry, but this week she hired a lawyer to fight to move the case to the jurisdiction of the state personnel board, which Palin appoints.’

Why go there? What trees does that plant?

Fourth, we should stop making with all the questions already. She gave a really good speech. And why go beyond that? As we all know, speeches cannot be written by others and rehearsed for days. They are true windows to the soul.

Unless they are delivered by Barack Obama, that is. In which case, as Palin said Wednesday, speeches are just a ‘cloud of rhetoric.’

Fifth, we should stop reporting on the families of the candidates. Unless the candidates want us to.

Sarah Palin wanted the media to report on her teenage son, Track, who enlisted in the Army on Sept. 11, 2007, and soon will deploy to Iraq.

Sarah Palin did not want the media to report on her teenage daughter, Bristol, who is pregnant and unmarried.

Sarah Palin thinks that one is good for her campaign and one is not, and that the media should report only on what is good for her campaign. That is our job, and that is our duty. If that is not actually in the Constitution, it should be. (And someday may be.)

The official theme of the convention’s third day was ‘prosperity,’ but the unofficial theme was ‘the media are really, really awful.’

Even Mike Huckabee, who campaigned for president this year by saying ‘I am a conservative, but I am not mad at anybody,’ discovered Wednesday night that he is mad at somebody.

‘I’d like to thank the elite media for doing something,’ Huckabee said, ‘that, quite frankly, I didn’t think could be done: unify the Republican party and all of America in support of John McCain and Sarah Palin.’

And could that be the real point of the attacks on the media? To unify the Republican Party?

No, that is simply the cynical, media view.

Though as Lily Tomlin says, ‘No matter how cynical I get, it’s just never enough to keep up.’

I couldn’t resist that. For which I am sorry.”

posted by ericb at 9:47 AM on September 4, 2008 [10 favorites]

My friends, there were five and a half years when no one would have even heard me if I mocked someone for being an out of touch elitist while my wife wore a $300,000 outfit.
posted by Flunkie at 9:47 AM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

How does an outfit even cost $300,000.00? Was it made out of pure heroin and uranium or something? Who are these fucking space creatures?

I'm heading over to donate to Obama right now.
posted by Divine_Wino at 9:54 AM on September 4, 2008 [15 favorites]

I'd like to encourage anyone who was moved to donate to head down to your local Obama campaign office and volunteer.

You don't even need to go down to the campaign office. If you sign up at barackobama.com, they'll automatically set you up with everything you need to make phone calls from home or go door-to-door, including a customized list of names and detailed instructions. It's really an impressive organization.
posted by designbot at 9:56 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

As my almost 4 y/o god daughter has started saying about everything, 'um...no'.

That's good place to start a cogent counter argument from. The rational abilities of a four year old.

Let me then, as a counter-counter, quote what my seven year old niece would interject:

"HANNAH MONTANA IS SOOOOOOO CUUUUUUTE!!! YAAAAAAAAAY"

It's about as relevant.
posted by tkchrist at 10:01 AM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

ericb, I fail to see what you are bringing to the table. There is no discussion (not that there would be anyway, despite the efforts of several here) or personal reasoned thought. Just 150 plus cut and paste/link to other sites thread clogging comments. Perhaps you fell it's your duty, but it comes off like a young bright eyed bushy tailed college republican trying to score "Who's Line is it Anyway" type points, fugitively scanning the web to simul-post anything and everything possibly related...
whatever, I just wish you would contain yrself here a bit. It's an embarrassment.
posted by dawson at 10:01 AM on September 4, 2008

How does an outfit even cost $300,000.00? Was it made out of pure heroin and uranium or something? Who are these fucking space creatures?

93% of the cost of the outfit was in her 3 carat diamond earrings. ($280k) plus another $11k for the pearls and $4.5k for the watch. The dress itself was only $3k.
posted by delmoi at 10:04 AM on September 4, 2008

FWIW, I found it interesting and entertaining. I had seen the headline pass by on Electicker but hadn't realized it would be satire-ish, which Politico usually doesn't do.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:05 AM on September 4, 2008

dawson -- FWIW, I fail to see what you are bringing to the table. And quit with the e-mails.
posted by ericb at 10:07 AM on September 4, 2008 [9 favorites]

I wish to state how much I don't give a good goddamn about the candidates' families. First Ladies, First Children, Second Children/Husbands/Wives, etc.

We've got better things to do.

I'm not seeing this conservative-base "fire" that konolia is seeing. I've got plenty of conservative and conservative Christian friends, and they're just not into it. Most are disgusted or not excited by either set of candidates. One is at least going to vote, but she's going to write in a couple of actual celebrities. She gave entertaining reasons why, but I think it's for the pleasure of watching peoples' heads explode.

Now the conservative-base media is all fired up. They're slobbering all over Palin, and crowing about how she's just what the party/country/ticket needs. I think the two "fourth estates" are duking it out, vying for eyeballs. I'm not seeing this stuff on the ground.
posted by lysdexic at 10:08 AM on September 4, 2008

I like the more "one-stop-shopping" that Ericb brings to the table by finding these posts.
posted by josher71 at 10:09 AM on September 4, 2008

ericb, I fail to see what you are bringing to the table ... whatever, I just wish you would contain yrself here a bit. It's an embarrassment.

That's absurd. Ericb is bringing new information to the thread, which is a lot more interesting then hearing a bunch of people's opinions. Besides, how informative is it for us to hear about the opinions of your 4-year old and your tattooed killer type friends, who's sole qualification is having survived the gulags of Alaska?
posted by delmoi at 10:10 AM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Thanks for all the links, ericb.

dawson: not everyone is out looking at every blog and news-site. ericb bring relevant links here is entirely within the spirit of metafilter.
posted by Rumple at 10:10 AM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

ericb, I fail to see what you are bringing to the table.

He's bringing information about the Republican Party's nominee for Vice President of the United States of America.

Which is more than the Republican Party is bringing.
posted by Flunkie at 10:13 AM on September 4, 2008 [14 favorites]

There's been some good parsing of the "community organizer" sneering here. I think it works on several levels to different parts of the Republican contingent. For many wealthy conservative business types (and I saw many of that type in the crowd last night, with their expensive suits and mean smiles) the community organizing thing is immediately a punchline. The idea that Obama would leave a $140k/yr+ job at a law firm to be an community organizer (helping all those unprestigious people, ugh) earning $30k at best, is, well, ridiculous to them. In their minds, he received the golden ticket and he ripped it up. Forget about all that "helping people" crap!
posted by naju at 10:16 AM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

that's disingenuous eric, I emailed you once, and replied to you once, both a few days ago. All emails between us were cordial. You act as if I'm stalking you, sweetie.
I guess I could just start cruising Drudge and repost everything in it's entirety here w/o even personal commentary. I fail to see the point, as most others have free access to the rest of the series of tubes.
posted by dawson at 10:21 AM on September 4, 2008

You act as if I'm stalking you, sweetie.

Um. You're not my type.
posted by ericb at 10:24 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm actually politically apathetic. I don't like either party all that much, mainly because I hate the hypocrisy on both sides. Really, I just like the show. I like the strategy and the spectacle more than the players.

But I just gave to Obama, the first political donation I've ever made.

Why? Because I sat there looking at what Giuliani said and what Palin said and could only think this is the same tired, cynical, mean, hypocritical political crap I've heard from them for the last generation.

I'm probably what you'd call a values voter. But I don't see my values shared by the GOP right now. I see them huddling behind Palin's new celebrity hoping women and Christians will live up just to give them one last shot at winning.

They remind me of the Yankees teams of late, loaded down with over the hill and overpaid veterans and new blood that can't seem to live up to the fans' ridiculous expectations. Teams that always seem to tank in the postseason because the young players are shellshocked and the old players don't have anything left in the tank.

I hate the Yankees.

Go Rays.

Si se puede.
posted by dw at 10:25 AM on September 4, 2008 [12 favorites]

I felt a bit nauseous watching the Republican convention last night. I’m very much a give-the-benefit-of-the-doubt kind of guy, so I try to listen to the arguments people make even when they’re made in over-the-top or patronizing ways. Sometimes it’s good to distinguish between the rhetorical devices and the underlying substance. Even people who use manipulative language sometimes have an important point beneath their persuasion techniques (ads against smoking, for example).

I usually don’t feel uneasy when I put those filters on, but last night - during the Guiliani speech - I realized I was no longer filtering a speechwriter’s intentional manipulation; I was trying to look beyond real hate. These folks were gritting their teeth, shaking their fists, and smiling the way gladiators do when going into combat against barbarians. And this is the incumbent party. The ones currently in power.

What is it they hate? Guiliani and Palin both made it pretty clear: community organizing. Community organizing is energized from below. From the periphery. It is the direction and facilitation of mass energy towards productive and cooperative ends. It is about replacing conflict with collaboration. It is the opposite of war; it is peace.

Douglas Rushkoff, via Boingboing.
posted by Divine_Wino at 10:27 AM on September 4, 2008 [6 favorites]

Uh, no it's not. Why do you want to assume race has anything to do with this?

Several hundred pasty faced white folk on the floor of the convention dutifully chanting "Country First!" and apparently unaware of its similarities to that other chant "Uber Alles!", perhaps?
posted by kuujjuarapik at 10:27 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Continuing the donation theme, I just gave to the Obama campaign, first political contribution ever. My home state probably doesn't need the help, but hopefully my small amount will help in contested states.
posted by curse at 10:30 AM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

The dress itself was only $3k.

Oh, all right then. She's just a regular old gal from Scottsdale.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:38 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

ericb, I also appreciate the links.

Really, we've been doing fine in this thread, despite disagreements. We don't need volunteer moderation.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:41 AM on September 4, 2008

dawson, ericb, you're both pretty. Now please, settle down.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:44 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

And today's Gallup has Obama holding a steady 6-7 point lead (tday 49-42). His convention bounce is holding through Wednesday morning of the GOP hate fest, and well past the introduction of Palin as the VP candidate. Rasmussen also has him holding steady up 5 or 6 as well.

None of this factors in Palin's or McCain's speeches, yet.

See, a lot of Americans are really tired of this red/blue, town/city cultural warfare. That's why Obama got traction in the first place. And doubling down on it is not going to change the historical trend. The GOP is the party of a minority of older people, white people, and theocratic and national security zealots. It's tired and dragging. Sarah Palin is the best they can do for fresh talent? Really? Says all you need to know.

Obama by 7-10 in the popular vote, and by a landslide in the EC.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:46 AM on September 4, 2008

In a More Diverse America, A Mostly White Convention

Only 36 of the 2,380 delegates seated on the convention floor are black, the lowest number since the Joint Center for Political and Economic Studies began tracking diversity at political conventions 40 years ago. Each night, the overwhelmingly white audience watches a series of white politicians step to the lectern -- a visual reminder that no black Republican has served as a governor, U.S. senator or U.S. House member in the past six years.

posted by kirkaracha at 10:47 AM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

I have an honest question to ask you all here....a little thought experiment, if you will....

If Barack Obama was everything he was right this minute with the exception of one thing-and that thing being that he was prolife-just that ONE THING....

Would you all still support him? Vote for him? Campaign for him?

I seriously want to know.
posted by konolia at 10:49 AM on September 4, 2008

Yesterday as I listened to the speeches, I was actually most struck by the "ZERO" chants - it's a half-clever riff on the Obama campaign's logo. However, the reason it sticks with me as the night's rhetorical high point is that it perfectly encapsulates and expresses the ideas and policies of the past eight years.

"Zero" is the absence of all, the end of eternity, the inverse of infinity. It's the goal of nihilism; Sprio Agnew's nattering nabobs of negativity giving voice, in full throat, to Nietzsche's world view. It's not only a lack of idea or sense of the future; it's the absence of God, of faith, and of justice. I realize the delegates didn't intend to sing this song of themselves, but in my ears, that's what they did.

Nihilism has not proven to be an effective governance strategy. I tend to doubt that it has legs as a campaign strategy, either.
posted by mwhybark at 10:56 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Obama is pro-life. He is personally opposed to abortion.

He's also pro-choice.

See, if you were really "pro life" you'd look at the facts and realize that the *only* way to significantly reduce the number of abortions is to keep the procedure safe, legal, and rare.

You just want to see doctors and mothers thrown in jail, right? And the Bristol Palins of the world dying in botched illegal abortions?

You've been voting "pro life" all these years, and what have you gotten from the GOP? The most you can ever hope for is a Supreme Court that tosses Roe V. Wade, meaning that abortion will remain legal in enlightened states and become a crime in states where people like you are the majority. Pregnant women will need to travel for their abortions, or get them illegally at home, or not get them and condemn both themselves and their babies to lives of poverty and desperation in far too many cases (because rich people, as was always true even when abortion was illegal in the US, will always be able to get them, even if it means going abroad).

I don't think the ~~pro-life~~ anti-choice movement gives a shit about babies. It just hates women. And it relies on people like you, konolia, remaining ignorant of the facts of life. Just as it hopes young women will be similarly ignorant of those facts, ensuring they remain barefoot and pregnant and uneducated.

"Pro-life" is anti-woman. Period.
posted by fourcheesemac at 10:57 AM on September 4, 2008 [32 favorites]

I don't tend to answer that question, but I think I would. Though I would find it terribly inconsistent of him. He's consistently in favor of freedom for people, and opportunity for people, and it would be a glaring inconsistency for him to want to force women to give birth, regardless of how the pregnancy occured.

Unless you mean "pro-life" as in "supports healthy pregnancies and babies and children", and not "anti-choice".

I'm pro-life and pro-choice. Most people are. It's the politicians and power brokers who don't want us to think so.
posted by lysdexic at 10:58 AM on September 4, 2008

ericb, thanks for all the links you bring to the table - just wanted to note that I appreciate them.
posted by madamjujujive at 10:59 AM on September 4, 2008

That's not a good question, since "pro-life" means different things to different people, even within the pro-life movement....

Maybe the question should be:

"If Barack Obama was everything he was right this minute with the exception of one thing -- and that thing being that he had identical views on abortion as McCain -- just that ONE THING.... Would you all still support him? Vote for him? Campaign for him?"

My answer to that would be yes, yes, and yes.
posted by dw at 10:59 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

If Barack Obama was everything he was right this minute with the exception of one thing-and that thing being that he was prolife-just that ONE THING.... Would you all still support him? Vote for him? Campaign for him?

Sure- I'm not a one issue voter. Seems like a crazy way to pick the pesron who has power over EVERY issue.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:00 AM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

If Barack Obama was everything he was right this minute with the exception of one thing-and that thing being that he was prolife-just that ONE THING....

Would you all still support him? Vote for him? Campaign for him?

That's a bit of a loaded question, because who can say whether he'd have gotten the nomination if he took that position? But in that bizarro world scenario, if he's running against the same team of clowns he's running against now, absolutely, without question, yes I would support him, vote for him, and campaign for him.

What I'd really like to know is, would you?
posted by Balonious Assault at 11:01 AM on September 4, 2008 [8 favorites]

If Barack Obama was everything he was right this minute with the exception of one thing-and that thing being that he was prolife-just that ONE THING....

It's a false choice, but ok, I'll play.

That said, if I had to chose between two candidates, both pro-life, but one measured, nuanced, analytical and craving the best information he could to help him make best decisions he can and the other, a cranky, obstreperous, stubborn demagogue who cannot be persuaded to moderate his views on anything... I'd DEFINITELY vote for the former.

I think the one thing that you are not getting, konolia, is how the RNC looks to people with experiences other than yours. When we see an overwhelmingly white crowd demonize good people who want the best for the country, but are somehow essentially "different", not sufficiently down to earth, not from small towns, too intellectual, what have you, and then engage periodically in jingoistic chants, it starts looking more like a Klan rally, than a gathering of like-minded people who genuinely believe in the virtue of moral values and the good of the nation as a whole.

Sarah Palin is a symbol of that. An emblem of mistrust of people who don't conform to their own value set, and she is very, very angry about it.
posted by psmealey at 11:02 AM on September 4, 2008 [10 favorites]

Boy, if Palin has fired up the right, it seems to have fired up the Obama Biden supporters just as much. Another first-time donater here.
posted by Pantengliopoli at 11:02 AM on September 4, 2008 [9 favorites]

If Barack Obama was everything he was right this minute with the exception of one thing-and that thing being that he was prolife-just that ONE THING....

I would totally still vote for Obama if I only saw him from the side.

...wait.
posted by milarepa at 11:03 AM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

And konolia, your home state is turning blue! Today's polling shows Kay Hagan with a 5 point lead over Liddy Dole. Ouch, GOP.

As I think about it, I wonder if the Palin pick isn't about trying to save the GOP from being totally crushed in the down-ballot races. An energized base is maybe good for 3-5 points for McCain. But it could make a major marginal difference in some of the most surprising congressional races, where Dems are beating Reps in blood-red districts.

NC going blue at last. That will be a treat on election night.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:05 AM on September 4, 2008

I too like ericb's links
posted by caddis at 11:06 AM on September 4, 2008

I would still support Obama if he were anti-choice. It obviously would be moved into my "cons" lists, but the "pros" would still outweigh them.
posted by gaspode at 11:08 AM on September 4, 2008

When you say pro-life, do you mean "I think abortion is wrong but should be legal"

I mean, holds the same opinion as me on the sanctity of human life.
posted by konolia at 11:08 AM on September 4, 2008

And as I think about this more, I think Palin is wonderful for the Democrats. She energizes our base plenty -- I bet this one MeFi thread has about $1000 in donations from first-timers if you add it all up. We needed a shot in the arm to avoid complacency about how easy it would be to beat these morons.

But beyond that, when McCain and Palin *are* crushed, there won't be second guessing about "what if" he'd run to the base instead of the Center. The shrinking GOP base will be shown up for what it is -- a shrinking base of older voters, not enough to counter the growing dem and independent majority. It will innoculate the next GOP generation from having to toss them "red meat" at every chance.

You know who dodged bullets on this? Pawlenty and Jindal, that's who. Those guys will be around to pick up the pieces of the dashed GOP, and people like Dobson and Palin will be marginalized at last.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:09 AM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

konolia, I take it you are a staunch enemy of the death penalty, and an opponent of war unless absolutely necessary? Or do the babies who die from "collateral damage" in Afghanistan and Iraq not count because they are brown and the USA is righteous?

Otherwise, the phrase "sanctity of human life" rings *damn* hollow.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:11 AM on September 4, 2008 [7 favorites]

(if it's not blasphemous -- who would Jesus bomb, anyway?)
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:12 AM on September 4, 2008

And konolia, your home state is turning blue! Today's polling shows Kay Hagan with a 5 point lead over Liddy Dole. Ouch, GOP.

Kay's spent a lot of money with some really really negative advertising. Dole has just now started to respond. I wouldn't count her out yet. (She stayed home to campaign instead of going to the convention.)
posted by konolia at 11:13 AM on September 4, 2008

I mean, holds the same opinion as me on the sanctity of human life.

Which is what? And how does that apply politically? Someone can believe abortion is wrong AND that the government doesn't have any right to ban it.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:14 AM on September 4, 2008 [9 favorites]

Where's this table I keep reading about? For 5 1/2 years, John McCain didn't have a table!
posted by lukemeister at 11:15 AM on September 4, 2008

konolia, it would depend on his exact stance on abortion. Since I consider many attacks on abortion to be a personal threat to my medical safety, as well as attacks on my rights as a human being, it's very important to me where people who represent me stand on the issues involved. But yes, I would consider a moderately anti-choice candidate.
posted by agregoli at 11:16 AM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Fourcheesemac, no one wants collateral damage in a war. No one wants innocent people killed.

Truth to tell, though I would rather be bombed than grow up under the Taliban. But better to grow up, and to grow up free.
posted by konolia at 11:16 AM on September 4, 2008

I mean, holds the same opinion as me on the sanctity of human life.

I would strongly support anyone for President that truly believed in the sanctity of human life. But that would have to extend to those citizens of nations that my government considers "enemies", death row inmates, people whose lives are threatened by reckless and callously indifferent industrial practices and so on.

Such a candidate, to my knowledge, has never been a serious contender for the Office of President.
posted by psmealey at 11:18 AM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Ben Stein: "I believe in Intelligent Design but ..... Sarah Palin is the most peculiar VP pick there has ever been .... she is going to need Henry Kissinger babysitting her...."

Heh, awesome smackdown from the far-ish right.
posted by Rumple at 11:18 AM on September 4, 2008

I would rather be bombed than grow up under the Taliban

So you support abortions for the Taliban?
posted by mrnutty at 11:19 AM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

(She stayed home to campaign instead of going to the convention.)

You believe that?

She, like many other Republicans in states that look likely or even possibly to go for Obama, stayed home so she wouldn't be too closely associated with the freakshow the convention has in fact turned out to be.

As for the advertising, why hasn't she advertised? Could it be because the RSCC is flat broke and facing more frightening challenges in a dozen other districts?

Making excuses for her doesn't change the fact that 4 years ago or 8 years ago she wouldn't have had to run an ad to beat Mother Teresa herself.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:19 AM on September 4, 2008

A little late, but...

"(For those of you who felt the evening was creepy? Yeah, that's how we feel when your people are having their convention. It's okay, we understand.)"

Really? Is that really true?

Are there really people who find positivity, themes of hope and renewal, rhetoric about supporting and organizing people against poverty and oppression, feelings of unity and collaboration, creepy?

Really?
posted by tristeza at 11:20 AM on September 4, 2008 [11 favorites]

Fourcheesemac, no one wants collateral damage in a war. No one wants innocent people killed.

Then how come you aren't a single issue voter on the war?
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:21 AM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

can someone find the box that chart was linked someone way upthread, that I haven't been able to find (and forgot to bookmark), that compares the reasoning and justification for various pro life legislation, with one column as "protecting the murder of children" and the other for "punishing women for having sex," and then showing how, if the justification is truly column A, why it doesn't hold up in examples in rows 1,2,3,4, etc.
posted by mrzarquon at 11:22 AM on September 4, 2008

And hey, you might like the Taliban. They hold pretty much the same view of life and politics as Sarah Palin does, and all your dominionist friends. The only difference is which imaginary friend is being cited as the supreme being to back up the totalitarianism.

The Taliban is pro-life, you know. Very pro-life. Like some of your friends, they would likely favor killing women who dared end a pregnancy. Like the "pro-life" movement, they spawn terrorists like Eric Rudolph and Osama Bin Laden, they protect and support those terrorists, and send them off to kill infidels.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:24 AM on September 4, 2008 [11 favorites]

Science!: "That's it. That's it. They're just so godamned excited to hate. It's really more than I expected. I mean every person's got their faults, but they just want to hate so much."

Reading through this thread I'm thinking something about a pot and a kettle...
posted by Rafaelloello at 11:26 AM on September 4, 2008

I think the one thing that you are not getting, konolia, is how the RNC looks to people with experiences other than yours. When we see an overwhelmingly white crowd demonize good people who want the best for the country, but are somehow essentially "different", not sufficiently down to earth, not from small towns, too intellectual, what have you, and then engage periodically in jingoistic chants, it starts looking more like a Klan rally, than a gathering of like-minded people who genuinely believe in the virtue of moral values and the good of the nation as a whole.

But then those folks from small towns feel very talked down to by YOUR side as well-that door swings both ways. But I do understand there is a door.

Obama is pro-life. He is personally opposed to abortion.He's also pro-choice.

Now, see, here's the thing. If you are prochoice, BE prochoice. If you are prolife, BE prolife.

But don't tell me you are personally opposed to abortion and yet prochoice. Because what that tells me is you are either A. not really opposed to abortion or B. a coward without the guts to act on your beliefs.

So to me that makes Obama either a liar or a coward. I don't think he's a liar.

I think deep down in his soul he knows that abortion is murdering an unborn baby. But I also think he knows that if he came out and said abortion was wrong he would catch an incredible amount of grief for it. Which, yes, it's true, he would.
posted by konolia at 11:26 AM on September 4, 2008

konolia, I have an honest question to ask you here....a little thought experiment, if you will....

Since "executive experience" is now so very very important to you, if Sarah Palin was everything she was right this minute with the exception of one thing-and that thing being that she didn't have the executive experience of driving her town of five thousand people into debt to a tune of twenty million dollars-just that ONE THING....

Would you still support her? Vote for her? Campaign for her?

I seriously want to know.
posted by Flunkie at 11:27 AM on September 4, 2008

A letter to TPM:

It really looks like the Republicans think that the Presidency, and election to it, is some kind of a joke. That it's a game which anyone can play at, so it doesn't matter if they grab a governor who is a political neophyte already embroiled in controversy on every front. It's a joke, so it's fine to ridicule and bully your opponent, fib, stall investigations, etc.

The "seriousness" (or "seriously?") narrative is the kind that could sway swing voters: independents don't want drama in their ticket -- they want people who can get down to business. They want a ticket that treats voters like sober adults, that treats an election to the Presidency seriously. McCain spokespeople say it's "Not about the issues?" What, so it's a high school popularity contest, then?

posted by delmoi at 11:28 AM on September 4, 2008

And hey, you might like the Taliban. They hold pretty much the same view of life and politics as Sarah Palin does

The Taliban would have her trapped in her own house with the windows painted black so no one could see a woman was in there. You might want to rethink your analogy.
posted by konolia at 11:28 AM on September 4, 2008

Someone brought up earlier that it's not likely that anyone knows ahead of time the exact date of when he's supposed to head out.

Ah, I'd missed that. Thanks, dejah and Marisa.

ericb, I fail to see what you are bringing to the table. There is no discussion (not that there would be anyway, despite the efforts of several here) or personal reasoned thought. Just 150 plus cut and paste/link to other sites thread clogging comments.

Yeah ericb, WTF? Enough with all the damn links already. GYOBFW! ;)

This thread makes my browser ache.
posted by homunculus at 11:29 AM on September 4, 2008

Now, see, here's the thing. If you are prochoice, BE prochoice. If you are prolife, BE prolife.

But don't tell me you are personally opposed to abortion and yet prochoice. Because what that tells me is you are either A. not really opposed to abortion or B. a coward without the guts to act on your beliefs.

So to me that makes Obama either a liar or a coward. I don't think he's a liar.

I think deep down in his soul he knows that abortion is murdering an unborn baby.

So, I assume that you advocate charging these women who murder their unborn babies with murder. Or, at the very least, conspiracy to murder, since they didn't actually pull the trigger - they merely hired a hitman.

Right?

Or are you a liar or a coward?
posted by Flunkie at 11:30 AM on September 4, 2008

LOL. Focus group results from last night are coming in. Independent voters, female voters, swing voters . . . widespread panning, contra the pundits.

MeFites are not alone. It was as ugly as you thought it was.

See here for a compendium.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:30 AM on September 4, 2008

For the record, RealClearPolitics, which assembles poll numbers from Gallup, Rasmussen, Hotline, CNN and CBS, has Obama leading McCain by an average of 6 points. Also, the night after Palin's alleged "ZOMG!" speech, Obama's average remains unchanged at 48%, while McCain actually took a slight dip, from 43% to 42.8%. It'll be interesting to see how these numbers progress over the next weeks but, judging by the other sources posted in this thread when compared to these numbers, it seems as though Palin has alienated moderates while not doing much to dent Obama.

Palin's problem is, she peaked already. She's not going to be able to top last night's speech. After so many people's expectations remained at ground level, she didn't have to do much to impress the shit out of everyone, and delivering a pre-written speech with the pinache of a prom queen pretty much did that. And the sentiment now is going to be, now what? She can't keep talking about the big bad media forever, and as the blatant lies in her opening speech keep coming back to haunt her, this little routine of hers is going to wear thin. It'll read as "I'm another dishonest business-as-usual politician". I think the predictions that she will, apart for the VP debate scheduled for October, remain mostly in evangelical circles from this point out is an accurate one. She doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

This is great news, because scrutiny is what the Obama team's counter is going to be about, and the best thing the Obama team could do right now is stay on point - shine the light on Palin's inconsistencies if not outright fabrications, keep reminding people that McCain = Bush, with 90% of the emphasis on McCain. Independents are already unimpressed with the McCain team, and last night did little to sway them. They need to be impressed by Obama.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:30 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Flunkie?

Yes.
posted by konolia at 11:31 AM on September 4, 2008

ericb is the kindest, bravest, warmest, most wonderful human being I've ever known in my life.

No, wait, that's John "Songbird" McCain.

can someone find the box that chart was linked someone way upthread

Here ya go.

I was actually most struck by the 'ZERO' chant

I thought they liked to mock Obama as "The One." Now he's zero? I'm confused.

Nihilism has not proven to be an effective governance strategy. I tend to doubt that it has legs as a campaign strategy, either.

Nihilists! Fuck me. I mean, say what you like about the tenets of National Socialism, Dude, at least it's an ethos.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:32 AM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

But don't tell me you are personally opposed to abortion and yet prochoice. Because what that tells me is you are either A. not really opposed to abortion or B. a coward without the guts to act on your beliefs.

Sp why hasn't the Republican party moved dramatically to ban abortion? That's what I don't understand- how one can vote for the Republicans because they're the "pro-life" party, even though they've been in pwer for 8 years and they haven't yet banned abortion. If they were going to do it, wouldn't they have done it already?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 11:33 AM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

But don't tell me you are personally opposed to abortion and yet prochoice. Because what that tells me is you are either A. not really opposed to abortion or B. a coward without the guts to act on your beliefs.

Some of us think that hazy moral questions should be left up to the individuals involved rather than the government.
posted by drezdn at 11:33 AM on September 4, 2008 [7 favorites]

But then those folks from small towns feel very talked down to by YOUR side as well-that door swings both ways

At least MY side doesn't try to write laws telling you how you can and can't live your life, and typically doesn't react to opposing viewpoints (or lifestyles) with violence.

If the worst I had to fear is some comic barbs on Saturday Night Live, I'd take that over being chained up and dragged behind pickup truck, or chained to a fence and then had rocks thrown at me and left to freeze to death.
posted by psmealey at 11:33 AM on September 4, 2008 [11 favorites]

Jon Stewart on the GOP hypocrisy of the Palin pick

Contains a great line: "In Dick Morris' defense, he is a lying sack of shit."
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:34 AM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

Flunkie?

Yes.

Yes what?

Yes you would still vote for Palin even if she didn't have the awesome executive experience which caused her town of 5,000 people to go twenty million dollars in debt?

Or yes you would charge women who have abortions with murder?
posted by Flunkie at 11:35 AM on September 4, 2008

But don't tell me you are personally opposed to abortion and yet prochoice. Because what that tells me is you are either A. not really opposed to abortion or B. a coward without the guts to act on your beliefs.

What? I'm personally opposed to abortion—I'd be happier if no woman ever felt compelled to get one ever again—but I'm deeply pro-choice because I don't believe it's my place to enforce that eventuality.

I'd like it, too, if no one ever used words to injure or demean or alienate another person—I'm strongly opposed to people being jerks—but I think the First Amendment is pretty fucking important. If that makes me a coward or a liar, I'd like to know why.

Complex moral/ethical issues require nuanced positions if we're ever going to get beyond caveman chest-beating on this stuff. You paint a picture of a conflict where there are only two possible positions: banning all abortions, or merrily encouraging them. That's ridiculous.
posted by cortex at 11:36 AM on September 4, 2008 [53 favorites]

anyone trying to play 'quiz konolia on her personal beliefs' could take that to mefimail.
posted by garlic at 11:37 AM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

At least MY side doesn't try to write laws telling you how you can and can't live your life

Oh really? That's why we have school vouchers and full 2nd amendment rights? Oh, that's right, Democrats don't like school choice and many of them don't want private citizens owning guns....

Sp why hasn't the Republican party moved dramatically to ban abortion?

It's all about the Supreme Court, and which party will be choosing to fill the next vacancies.
posted by konolia at 11:39 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

You know, boo hoo for people in "small towns." They aren't any better or more American than anyone else. Being from a small town doesn't make you authentic or honest or hard working. There are plenty of authentic hard working people in my New York City neighborhood.

Seriously, the people I know from small towns are not such whiners as the people who claim to represent them. Nothing is stupider than elitists calling other people elitists, and Americans can see through that.

Sarah Palin owns three houses; combined with the McCains, that's 10 houses between them.

I love seeing people like Rudy Giuliani slamming "cosmopolitan" democrats. Rudy, he of three marriages, public admissions of infidelity, gay friends who put him up when his wife kicked him out, a passion for cross-dressing, and a taste for opera.

What. A. Dick.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:39 AM on September 4, 2008 [9 favorites]

> So to me that makes Obama either a liar or a coward. I don't think he's a liar. I think deep down in his soul he knows that abortion is murdering an unborn baby. But I also think he knows that if he came out and said abortion was wrong he would catch an incredible amount of grief for it. Which, yes, it's true, he would.

Remind me again how being Pro Choice means you have to have an abortion?

Remember, it's the CHOICE part that is important (as even Palin pointed out for both her and her daughters pregnancy's, it was their CHOICE).

You said upthread that you just believe you don't want teens to think they have to have an abortion. Great. I think teens should be given the option to make that decision and the resources available to prevent getting pregnant in the first place (real sex ed, with more detail than just don't do it. hell you tell teens about the complications and chances and the decisions they will have to make, the science behind it, many may remain abstinent by CHOICE). Also, there should be full support for any option they choose to take, even if it is something I don't believe in, as women should not be punished for having sex.

How then is forcing a single option giving anyone a choice, and how is that *not* punishing women for having sex (especially if that women is poor, non white, and has no established social network to support her). Because again, how can Palin even mention the word Choice when she believes that God has told her she has non to begin with? What is so special about her being able to Choose while others are not?
posted by mrzarquon at 11:41 AM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

There is something truly charming about someone who claims to believe in the "sanctity of human life" championing the freedom to own automatic weapons.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:42 AM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Ron Paul's no-count convention roll-call
posted by homunculus at 11:43 AM on September 4, 2008

So why hasn't the Republican party moved dramatically to ban abortion? That's what I don't understand- how one can vote for the Republicans because they're the "pro-life" party, even though they've been in pwer for 8 years and they haven't yet banned abortion. If they were going to do it, wouldn't they have done it already?

I think they're almost there -- they just need one more Supreme Court justice besides Scalia, Thomas, Alito, and Roberts. The other folks are either pro-abortion or pro stare decisis. Republicans can't do it by law because it would face the same scrutiny as the state cases do, and that leaves a Constitutional amendment which they don't have the votes (or probably the support) to do.

One more justice, though, and I think they're there.
posted by onlyconnect at 11:43 AM on September 4, 2008

Obama is pro-life. He is personally opposed to abortion.He's also pro-choice.

Now, see, here's the thing. If you are prochoice, BE prochoice. If you are prolife, BE prolife.

Alright, meow, I've been quietly stalking this thread, but two things

1) Stop pickin' on konolia with the strawmen and crap. We can have a dialogue of differing ideas without picking on people.

2) The whole point about pro-choice is that I don't get to decide what a woman does -- she has her own CHOICE. That's how I can be personally opposed to abortion, say I'd never want that to happen if I was directly involved, but allow for the possibility that someone somewhere else might be facing a situation that requires them to make that choice. I don't have any right to tell someone else what to do or how to live. That's how pro choice works. You could call it pro rights really, except that "rights" and "life" sound too similiar in sound bites.
posted by cavalier at 11:44 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Do you respect the right of someone to murder their handicapped infant?

If something is morally wrong, why am I duty bound to respect someone who does it?

Obama is a product of his generation-a generation that does not understand that not to condemn evil is to participate in it.
posted by konolia at 11:46 AM on September 4, 2008

The "Obama as an anti-choice candidate" thing is a false choice. I'm older than a lot of folks here, and, yes, I've voted for anti-choice candidates on occasion, because their opponents were worse, on the whole, than them. That's life in an artificial two party system.

Then again, I don't like Obama. Nor did I like Hillary. Both are what would have been moderate Republicans in my youth. The destruction of the US left in WWI has caused the "centre" to slide to the right, and Reagan and his masters accelerated that slide.
posted by QIbHom at 11:46 AM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Obama donation and yard sign here. (First time yard-signer.)
posted by Morrigan at 11:46 AM on September 4, 2008 [6 favorites]

Sp why hasn't the Republican party moved dramatically to ban abortion?
It's all about the Supreme Court, and which party will be choosing to fill the next vacancies.

That's not true. You could also make a Constitutional Amendment outlawing abortion. Why haven't any of the politicians you support tried that?

Oh, that's right, because the American people would be overwhelmingly against it, and it would be the death knell of the Republican Party.

So instead, the plan is to impose your will upon the majority by stacking the Supreme Court. But that's not "legislating from the bench" or "judicial activism". That's, what are you guys calling it now, "strict constructionism"? Yeah, that's it.
posted by Flunkie at 11:46 AM on September 4, 2008 [6 favorites]

I think deep down in his soul he knows that abortion is murdering an unborn baby.

konolia, you don't really believe this either. Earlier you said you'd oppose legal punishment for women who seek abortions -- which makes no sense, if you truly think abortion is murder.

You think Obama's position is calculating and disingenuous? So's yours.
posted by dogrose at 11:49 AM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

> Obama is a product of his generation-a generation that does not understand that not to condemn evil is to participate in it.

And Abortion is the only evil that deserves condemnation? Not killing of innocent adults? Or does collateral damage not count?
posted by mrzarquon at 11:51 AM on September 4, 2008

Obama is a product of his generation-a generation that does not understand that not to condemn evil is to participate in it.

You are presuming a universally accepted notion of "evil". You have ever right to personally abhor abortion as murder—though, again, the lack of any endorsement for the criminal punishment of aborting mothers makes this otherwise absolutist stance confusing—but an argument that depends on a presupposition that has not been granted is no argument at all.
posted by cortex at 11:52 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Obama is a product of his generation-a generation that does not understand that not to condemn evil is to participate in it.

Gee, could you possibly *be* more condescending?

You've just stated the reason why I oppose the GOP not only as a political party, but as a group of bad people. Not to condemn something as evil as the Republican Party is to support it.

Seriously, who has "picked on" konolia here? We've been trying to engage in dialogue, but as I've seen since at least the Ted Haggard thread, there's not much point, so instead we let her stand for her ilk of right wingers. And she comes at those of us who disagree with a single broad brush characterization of all of us Obama's age or younger as participants in *evil* because we disagree about when life begins?
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:54 AM on September 4, 2008

Because what that tells me is you are either A. not really opposed to abortion or B. a coward without the guts to act on your beliefs.

But konolia, you are honestly not getting something here: when abortion is illegal, "babies" AND women die. Despite a sometimes fundamentalist upbringing, despite abstinence-only sex ed, despite making seeking or performing an abortion a crime - despite all that, the end result is that you INCREASE the chance of young women dying while at the same time NOT ending abortion. You're probably aware of this. Knowing this, how do you justify calling this position "pro-life"?

And cavalier, who on earth is "picking on" konolia? She expresses her opinion, we ask questions. There are constant reiterations that we respect her point of view. In other words, please.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 11:54 AM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

if anyone cares :P wow, great speech! (above the soft bigotry of my admittedly low expectations) like my initial reaction was that she hit it out of the park and the republicans have finally found their 'cameron' [cf. 'national greatness'] (or in the BSG universe, their roslin) but after further reflection (being a now-cherished independent*)...

obama/palin!? (or vice versa ;)
she did support the bridge to nowhere so will her 'record as a reformer' stand up to scrutiny?
she also raised taxes on oil companies to get alaska into surplus, so how can she criticise dems for wanting to selectively raise taxes to balance the budget? if a mccain/palin ticket is really committed to a return to fiscal conservatism, i haven't seen it in their policies...
her line about reading terrorists their rights was kind of troubling to me, cuz how does she know they're terrorists? wiretaps? also would she 'double guantanamo' like romney? Ps and VPs who respect civil liberties, please
also what's wrong with being a community organiser? they don't have responsibilities?
oh and while it was a nice line about how seeking the presidency shouldn't be a journey of personal discovery, um, no one ever said it was, i don't think
she's a creationist which, for someone who values empiricism, reason and science as preconditions of progress, is kind of a turnoff (e.g. the GOP is now officially against even private funding of embryonic stem cell research) -- i understand that while she'd like creationism taught in schools alongside evolution, she's not going to push it
similarly, she's radically pro-life (even in the case of rape/incest) -- i don't get the feeling that overturning roe v wade is high on her priority list tho, but i wonder how that will play wrt the base if it's not on the agenda...

so like that was palin! i also have to say i kinda like how her husband was/is an alaskan secessionist :P but mccain and the GOP are still open to claims of 'more of the same' without more concrete policy proposals... and on foreign policy, when giuliani was touting mccain's initial reaction to s.ossetia -- "we're all georgians now" -- as evidence of his experience... really? russia has already acknowledged s.ossetia and abkhazia, what is he going to do about it? making empty promises that he has every intention of keeping (but no ability to) strikes me as very poor decision making...

speaking of which, on iraq, we're somehow supposed to believe that we're (including iraqis) better off having fought the war? never mind the cost (including human), but last time i checked the iraqi gov't just cut their first oil deal with china, which is fine, but it seems like all we accomplished was replace one dictator with a guy with a growing penchant for authoritarianism (or worse?) in waiting... [a question for both candidates, how to prevent maliki from consolidating shi'a power at the expense of sunnis and kurds?]

which i guess brings me to my greatest moment of cognitive dissonance during the RNC; i understand mccain is a courageous POW and war hero -- got it -- but it was the vietnam war; did i miss something? the memo about how this was a great and shining example of US foreign involvement/aggression? like iraq, i think most people now believe it's a war that shouldn't have been fought; personal stories of heroism and bravery are fine, but the point (and i think it's a big one) stands -- the decision to go to war was made in poor judgment based on a thin case used to paper over misguided idealism and ideology -- and mcmain is on the wrong side of it and, by all appearances, happy to be; rather than scorn, we should be welcoming of sober assessment, thoughtful deliberation and practical action, right?

oh and i thought huckabee was pretty class :P

cheers!

---
* still awaiting the dawn of washingtonian (GW#1) post-partisan politics
posted by kliuless at 11:54 AM on September 4, 2008

Obama leading by 15 in Iowa, 14 in New Mexico, 12 in Minnesota (!), 2 in Ohio, and down by only 3 in NC, all in today's CNN polls. And up 3 in North freaking Dakota. Polling mostly after the Palin pick.

Guess that "heartland versus the elites" bullshit ain't selling. Lot of small towns in Iowa and New Mexico, you know.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:56 AM on September 4, 2008

Sorry, the New Mexico number is first district (of three) only. Still, if he's leading 1st district by 14, he should do very well in NM.
posted by fourcheesemac at 11:59 AM on September 4, 2008

Seriously, who has "picked on" konolia here?

A few people have. I think it sucks; there have been a few cheap shots that were nothing but gratuitous "you suck" codas. In general, yeah, it's been a lot of talking about ideas and challenging each other back and forth, and I'm glad for that and appreciate konolia's inclination to stay in this hot, hot kitchen.

But all else aside, there's been some personal—rather than policy/positional—jerkishness.
posted by cortex at 11:59 AM on September 4, 2008

Holy mother of god. What a thread.
posted by crickets at 12:01 PM on September 4, 2008

(for the record-I don't feel picked on here. )
posted by konolia at 12:01 PM on September 4, 2008

konolia, your morals are not my morals. Your definition of evil is not my definition of evil. Your morals and your definition of evil are at least partly based on a religion we do not share. You mentioned how the Taliban treats women, with at least the strong suggestion that you don't approve. Their treatment of women is at least partly based on a religion you do not share. Would you like their morals forced on you? I don't want your morals forced on me.
posted by ersatzkat at 12:02 PM on September 4, 2008 [15 favorites]

Hey now, hey now, sorry, wasn't looking to go pointing fingers and playing the blame game, I just found in the past 100-200 comments that the tone started to get more heated directly towards folks then it had been previously. Have condescending, patronizing, or otherwise negative things been said in both directions? Sure thing. Was just trying to wave a peace flag, not trying to say konolia was being victimized or what have you. My bad.
posted by cavalier at 12:03 PM on September 4, 2008

Konolia-

This is the chart I was mentioning

Can you please share your opinion on it?
posted by mrzarquon at 12:03 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Thank you so much Mefites, and particularly ericb, for keeping me up to date about anything and everything Sarah Palin.

And thank you for your contagious enthusiasm. I'm still scared shitless, but I feel a lot better after reading this thread. I know, I know. Echo chamber. But, damn it, sometimes it's nice to actually believe that things could be better.

Sarah Palin's speech didn't encourage me to give money to Barack Obama, but you all just did.
posted by lunit at 12:05 PM on September 4, 2008 [6 favorites]

If Barack Obama was everything he was right this minute with the exception of one thing-and that thing being that he was prolife-just that ONE THING....

Yes, if I were an American, I'd still vote for him, because then the choice would be between two viable parties who are both running anti-choice campaigns, and the Obama team isn't populated by flesh-eating gargoyles.

Also because I'm not a one-issue voter. In other words, I'm not a fucking idiot.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 12:07 PM on September 4, 2008

I think the tack for the Obama camp to take is "Sarah Barracuda, the self-described pitbull with lipstick", focusing on how she fired all of the managers of Wasilla after becoming mayor, fired the entire Dairy Board in Alaska because they disagreed with her, fired the head of the state police because he wouldn't fire her ex-brotherinlaw, etc.

You know, a hot-headed, vindictive, impulsive loose cannon. Kind of like McCain.
posted by msalt at 12:08 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

If Palin sees abortion as evil, why didn't she mention it in her speech last night?
posted by drezdn at 12:09 PM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

If Barack Obama was everything he was right this minute with the exception of one thing-and that thing being that he was prolife-just that ONE THING....
Would you all still support him? Vote for him? Campaign for him?

That question illustrates very clearly one of the problems with left/right communication so far in this campaign.

"Exactly like he is now but anti-choice" is not an answerable question, because such a stance -- personally anti-abortion, but willing to let others make their own decisions -- exists within a spectrum of beliefs that encompass respect for other people, an understanding of economics and society, empathy, realism and intelligence.

It is not possible to reach in and flip just that one switch. Because flipping that switch involves flipping so many others -- ideas about personal choice and personal responsibility, an understanding of socioeconomics and history, respect for women and their rights, compassion for people who have made poor decisions.

This kind of thinking -- that pro- or anti-choice decisions are made in a perfect vacuum, bereft of any other values or understanding of how the world works -- is exactly what terrifies me about the religious right.

The stakes in America are so high at this point -- the environment, the economy, race relations and world affairs -- that being a single-issue voter has become not only unintelligent, it's become irresponsible. If somebody is voting for somebody solely and exclusively based on one narrow moral stance, with no regard for competence or intelligence, altruism or wisdom, compassion or worldview... that's both scary and tragic.

There is no ONE THING. There are many, many, many things. They interconnect and weave and cascade to become something impossibly complex and strange and wonderful.

Reducing a decision that will affect the lives of billions -- literally billions -- of people down to ONE THING, even if it is something you care passionately about, is profoundly short-sighted, and a little bit sad.
posted by Shepherd at 12:11 PM on September 4, 2008 [24 favorites]

It's all about the Supreme Court, and which party will be choosing to fill the next vacancies. - konolia

Exactly. And that is why Obama is neither a coward nor a liar. He would not appoint a judge who would impose his/her personal religion over all others. Obama is the only hope for this country returning to the rule of law and respect for our Constitution.

Aside from stomping on our Constitution, the "anti-choicers" have no respect for human life; that would take the courage to really address the reason abortion exists in the first place.

Yes, I realize your people are on a crusade and that you liken your 'burden' to that of the abolitionists -- and that you feel mightily persecuted as well. In actuality your "moral campaign" is led by the same people as the original crusades -- cruel, calculating, mercenary liars and cowards.
posted by Surfurrus at 12:12 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Cartoonists have at it:
McCain Picks Palin and Palin's pregnant daughter
posted by madamjujujive at 12:14 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Was just trying to wave a peace flag, not trying to say konolia was being victimized or what have you. My bad.

No apologies necessary. I guess I get worked up because I've had the ideas which konolia holds forth shoved in my face since Reagan was president, watched some of my heroes nearly destroyed by their machine, watched them make thin-veiled excuses for or downplay the bombing of clinics and the shooting of OB-GYNs, wail on the bugaboo of abortion while slashing social programs for young mothers, resist any attempts towards real campaign finance reform, watched them shout from the "pro-life" bullhorn and then sell us a war as a holy mission from God, watched them maintain an octopus grip on the American political system and do more to divide us than unite us and then have the unmitigated gall to tell us THEY are the victims here. Fuck that. Enough is enough.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:16 PM on September 4, 2008 [9 favorites]

Some of us feel that abortion was made legal ONLY BECAUSE it was LEGISLATED from the bench.

I'm old enough to remember the early Seventies.
posted by konolia at 12:16 PM on September 4, 2008

After successfully defeating the Joker, the Dark Knight helps to keep Gotham City a safe place. Beneath the city in the sewers, another villain emerges. Known as the Penguin, he targets the position of new mayor. Whilst Batman tries to uncover the truth behind the Penguin, the Catwoman also emerges with her own agenda in mind, but not without mixed feelings.

Gotham City faces two monstrous criminal menaces: the bizarre, sinister Penguin and the slinky, mysterious Catwoman. Can Batman battle two formidable foes at once?

-- IMDB

posted by team lowkey at 12:18 PM on September 4, 2008

You know, the "I'm so angry I gave Obama money for the first time" thing is happening all over the web today, on many discussion groups. I'm a little amazed at how often I've read it today.

It will be interesting to see how much BO raised on the strength of disgust at Sarah Palin. The GOP was crowing about how it saw a huge inrush of donations when she was announced.

Somehow, I think the Obama donor response will dwarf that. We'll see soon.

Thanks, Governor Pitbull! In fact, in honor of Palin's historic speech and konolia's valiant efforts and good attitude (I'm serious) in this thread, I am going to pledge here and now to give $5 more (*above my regular contributions) to Obama for every post konolia makes in this thread from here on out -- I want her to feel like she's having some kind of impact!

Who's with me?
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:20 PM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

Fourcheesemac, no one wants collateral damage in a war. No one wants innocent people killed.

Ah, but your position is that the sanctity of fetal life is supreme, triumphing over other moral considerations. I presume that would mean voluntary wars like the invasion and occupation of a country that hadn't attacked us.
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:24 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'll take that action, fourcheesemac.
posted by MrMoonPie at 12:26 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm old enough to remember the early 70s, too. I remember the coat hangers.

Judicial activism can be a good thing. It overthrew Plessy v. Ferguson. It overthrew Dred Scott.

One could even argue that the Supreme Court is supposed to be activist in defense of the Constitution.
posted by QIbHom at 12:27 PM on September 4, 2008 [8 favorites]

I am going to pledge... Who's with me?

Not me, and I think you're being nasty. We're having a discussion here. If you don't want to be involved, I'm sure there's some campaigning you could go do somewhere.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:29 PM on September 4, 2008 [8 favorites]

but it was the vietnam war; did i miss something? the memo about how this was a great and shining example of US foreign involvement/aggression? like iraq, i think most people now believe it's a war that shouldn't have been fought; ...

America retreated from Vietnam and tried to sweep it all under the carpet. Imagine how that feels to anyone who fought there feeling that it was a good cause.

Ever since the end of the Vietnam war the whole country has suffered from PTSD - and has been in denial of it. We don't discuss Vietnam, so the ones who have stiffled their anger and frustration have been popping up like cockroaches out of the woodwork every chance they get. This convention is virtual ecstasy for them.

This country has never healed from Vietnam and will be plagued with the fury of the 'losers-who-insist-we-were-winners' until we hear them out and then ALL come to terms with the pain....

... albeit, you youngsters could just wait for this generation to die off, but then you would still be dealing with the stink they left ...
posted by Surfurrus at 12:31 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Konolia,

I think your point about pro choicers who disapprove of abortion but are willing to allow it misses one very important religious point: free will. Apparently God Himself is pro-choice since He allows us to make mistakes. I won't take your free will away from you: I hope you learn to give me the same consideration.
posted by RussHy at 12:31 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Fourcheesemac - I'm in. I still have that tax rebate check sitting on my desk. What better way to use it to boost the economy than to use the money to help elect Obama.
posted by 8dot3 at 12:32 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Not sure if I really want to contribute to the abortion can-of-worms sidetrack, but there happens to be a relevant essay that just went up at HuffPo, arguing for more nuance and less absolutism on all sides--that it's essential to keep abortion legal, but possible to regulate it more strictly. I haven't digested it sufficiently to respond myself, but it's definitely worthwhile controversy fodder.

Some choice bits:

Palin is a joke candidate only on the ticket as a sop to pro-lifers. End of story.

Progressives need to take a fresh look at abortion. Few countries are as extreme as America. Progressives look to places like France as examples of generous maternal leave and so on. France is hardly anti-woman. And yet France limits abortion rights more than we do. So does Sweden. Even in Great Britain, which has almost as a permissive an abortion law as our own, there is growing debate in Parliament about rolling back the legal date after which abortions can no longer be performed from 23 weeks to 20 weeks. And this UK debate is not fueled by right wing preachers, but by medical science, and human rights ethics.

[...]

Shouldn't Obama be able to express the more nuanced position on abortion (that I happen to know is his) than the one favored by the ideologues at Planned Parenthood and NARAL? Shouldn't McCain be able to express an more nuanced position (that I happen to know is his) than the one dictated by Dr. Dobson and his ilk?

To most Americans--including me--it is gut-check self-evident that a fertilized egg is not a person, because personhood is a lot more than a collection of chromosomes in a Petri dish or in the womb. To most Americans--including me--it is also gut-check self-evident that an unborn baby is mighty like one of us, and that a lot of fast talking about reproductive rights and choice or a woman's mental well being, doesn't answer the horror of a three-pound child with her head deliberately caved in lying in a medical waste receptacle.
posted by neroli at 12:33 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Some of us feel that abortion was made legal ONLY BECAUSE it was LEGISLATED from the bench.

So why would you be comfortable with the Supreme Court making abortion illegal the same way? Wouldn't the principled thing to do be to write up a constitutional amendment stating that life begins at conception, and then convince 2/3 of the Congress to vote for it?
posted by designbot at 12:33 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

mccain and the GOP are still open to claims of 'more of the same' without more concrete policy proposals...

No way, man. Sarah Palin is an oilperson from a large state who likes to fire competent people and replace them with poorly qualified cronies.
She's nothing like Bush.
posted by Fuzzy Monster at 12:34 PM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

Some of us feel that abortion was made legal ONLY BECAUSE it was LEGISLATED from the bench.

So you're not willing to answer this question (either)? Why hasn't the Republican Party pushed for a Constitutional Amendment to outlaw abortion?

Why are they now instead trying the very same "legislate from the bench" tactic that they (and you) so decry?
posted by Flunkie at 12:35 PM on September 4, 2008

I'm old enough to remember the early Seventies. - konolia

Then you should be old enough to have heard stories of self-inflicted abortions and infanticide.

AND you should be old enough to know that the legalization of abortion was driven by medical and RELIGIOUS organizations -- they had seen enough carnage on their doorsteps.
posted by Surfurrus at 12:36 PM on September 4, 2008

The Daily Show: "Karl Rove appears bitterly divided over the experience issue."
posted by kirkaracha at 12:41 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Awww, pink . . . I'm not being nasty! I'm justifying the time it takes to keep loading this thread is all. (And FYI, I am phone banking for Obama on Saturday, calling people in North Carolina, no less. Maybe I'll call konolia?)

Truly, I figured my offer would inspire konolia to contribute *more* -- since she's having precisely zero effect here convincing anyone of anything. Of course you could say the same about those of us on the other side.

So I thought I'd make this delightful waste of time productive for Obama.

And let's make it a friendly competition. Someone out there must want to rise to the challenge and chip in $5 to McCain every time I post.

In all seriousness, I am trying to have some fun here! So far I count two takers on the matching challenge. Anyone else?
posted by fourcheesemac at 12:42 PM on September 4, 2008

I told my husband that someone gave 60 bucks to Obama because of me today-he wasn't worried about it.

Neither am I.

Ah, but your position is that the sanctity of fetal life is supreme, triumphing over other moral considerations. I presume that would mean voluntary wars like the invasion and occupation of a country that hadn't attacked us.

You know what, I freely confess I don't know all there is to know about why we went to war only that we have been told it was to keep us from having terrorist strikes here at home.

I do however believe in the concept of a just war-better minds than mine can argue whether or not Iraq and Afghanistan fit that bill.

I just don't understand why thinking, decent people would believe that abortion should be legal. Children just like Trig and just like his unborn nephew/niece are aborted every day in this nation. What kind of people are we to coo over a baby and then coolly believe it is just fine to suck one just like it only younger down a sink? Are we that afraid of commitment and responsibility?
posted by konolia at 12:44 PM on September 4, 2008

So why would you be comfortable with the Supreme Court making abortion illegal the same way?

That's not how it would happen. It would go to states' rights, the way it was before Roe vs. Wade.
posted by konolia at 12:46 PM on September 4, 2008

He is personally opposed to abortion

What that's generally taken to mean is that he wouldn't have one. Being pro choice means that he wouldn't try to stop a woman from having an abortion, as the anti-choicer's would.

My parents, atheists, abhor the thought of abortion, but fully support a woman's right to choose.

I myself am squicked by it, but also support the right to choose.
posted by lysdexic at 12:47 PM on September 4, 2008

I just don't understand why thinking, decent people would believe that abortion should be legal. Children just like Trig and just like his unborn nephew/niece are aborted every day in this nation. What kind of people are we to coo over a baby and then coolly believe it is just fine to suck one just like it only younger down a sink? Are we that afraid of commitment and responsibility?

I like how you've completely avoided answering any questions regarding the young women who die along with the "baby" when abortion is illegal, while spouting this sanctimonious crap about "commitment and responsibility".
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:48 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Would I support Obama just as strongly if he were pro-life, but exactly the same candidate in every other way? Yes

And I can prove that I mean it. In Minnesota in 1990, pro-life Rudy Perpich (Democrat) lost the governor's seat to pro-choice Arnie Carlson (Republican).

I voted for Perpich, because in every election in my life, the Democrats have always done more to support economic justice and a better quality of life for everyone.

Konolia, have you every voted for a prolife Democrat?
posted by marsha56 at 12:49 PM on September 4, 2008

Then how come you aren't a single issue voter on the war?

Because Iraqi's aren't white. Because most Iraqi's aren't Christian.

Collateral Damage. Yes "collateral". We never anticipate killing women and children when dropping cluster bombs, 2000lb GBU-27 bombs, lobbing Tomahawk cruise missiles, or bombarding towns, villages and cities with artillery.

We dropped 54.6 tons of bombs in September 2002 BEFORE authorization to go to war.

Over the years the combination of bombing and sanctions killed thousands of children in Iraq. The invasion and occupation and complete destruction of Iraqi infrastructure, health care, water and sewage systems, not to mention the breakdown of food distribution, killed tens of thousands more. Over 4.2 million Iraqis, more than 16% of the Iraqi population, have lost their homes and become refugees.

This wasn't just Syrian infiltrators. THIS WAS US. We create this battle ground. We made it happen.

In November 2006 Iraq's Health Minister Ali al-Shemari said that since the March 2003 invasion between 100,000 and 150,000 Iraqis have been killed. The Lancet survey estimates that over 650,000 Iraqi civilians have died.

Either way there is ZERO justification for this war when there were other options available.

People can put their fingers in their ears and chant all they want. These are the facts.
posted by tkchrist at 12:50 PM on September 4, 2008 [11 favorites]

It's not about commitment and responsibility to many, as has been pointed out to you repeatedly - People think differently on the issue than you, no matter how many times you try to frame it one way, it doesn't make it so.
posted by agregoli at 12:50 PM on September 4, 2008

Add me to the list of first-time donors to the Obama campaign.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 12:54 PM on September 4, 2008 [6 favorites]

You know what, I freely confess I don't know all there is to know about why we went to war only that we have been told it was to keep us from having terrorist strikes here at home.

I assume you're planning on becoming better informed before hitting the polling place in November.
posted by MrMoonPie at 12:56 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

If Barack Obama was everything he was right this minute with the exception of one thing-and that thing being that he was prolife-just that ONE THING....

Let's lay this out for real. So, in the general election, I have a choice between McCain, who's:

Wrong on abortion.
Wrong on taxes.
Wrong on Iraq.
Wrong on energy.
Wrong on fiscal responsibility.
etc,

and Alternate-Obama, who is:
Wrong on abortion
Right on taxes
Right on Iraq
Right on energy
Right on fiscal responsibility
etc,

Will I still pick Alternate-Obama? Duh. Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots would not.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:57 PM on September 4, 2008

I do however believe in the concept of a just war-better minds than mine can argue whether or not Iraq and Afghanistan fit that bill.

The thing is that because you were distracted by an unsolvable issue (that you don't understand why thinking, decent people don't believe as you do does not mean they are not there; you haven't bothered to look), better minds didn't prevail, and the horrific results point to the moral bankruptcy of your single-issue position. Your admitted inattention has opened the door to a plethora of abuses and horrors, and I don't think that's something to be particularly proud of, particularly because it appears you are swayed not by people who will do what you want them to do about abortion, but people--just like the parade of figures over the past 30 years who have stated opposition to it--who pay lip service to the issue in order to suck you in to the rest of their agenda.

So, yeah, I don't understand why thinking, decent people don't find that history is a good indication that the Republicans have no intention making abortion illegal; they get too much mileage out of it, and the practical results of such a move would be disastrous them and all the stuff their trying to do in non-election seasons when they're not pulling it out of that old bag.
posted by troybob at 12:57 PM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

I just don't understand why thinking, decent people would believe that abortion should be legal.

Because they've thought, and they're decent.
posted by Flunkie at 12:59 PM on September 4, 2008 [8 favorites]

It's not about commitment and responsibility to many

It's entirely about commitment and responsibility to me. We have a commitment and a responsibility to make sure that we still live in a democracy where people can dictate what they do with their own bodies, and to cry foul whenever somone tries to self-righteously accuse you of not valueing life because you support a woman's right to have an abortion.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:59 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

A woman can certainly control her own body. I am a woman, and I control my own body.

But when I was pregnant, that was someone else I was carrying.
posted by konolia at 1:02 PM on September 4, 2008

Some of us feel that abortion was made legal ONLY BECAUSE it was LEGISLATED from the bench.

That makes it sound as if abortion had always been a crime before that, but abortion was generally legal until quickening in the US until the mid/late 19th century. Abortion being illegal at any point in the pregnancy is a relatively short-lived aberration.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:07 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

But when I was pregnant, that was someone else I was carrying.

No, it wasn't.

Your move!
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:08 PM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

A woman can certainly control her own body. I am a woman, and I control my own body.

But when I was pregnant, that was someone else I was carrying.

No it wasn't. And, this is the crux of the issue.

You have every right to decide that some cells have a soul or are a human when they are in your body. You have no right or moral call to do so when they are in someone else's body.
posted by QIbHom at 1:10 PM on September 4, 2008 [9 favorites]

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservative." -- John Stuart Mill
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 1:11 PM on September 4, 2008 [8 favorites]

While all of you were engaging konolia in yet another pointless abortion derail, didn't anyone else wonder why quonsar hadn't piped up as well?
posted by yhbc at 1:11 PM on September 4, 2008

First time donor for Obama here (volunteering on Saturday and Sunday too); they told me this is where ya'll are having the roll call?
posted by penduluum at 1:12 PM on September 4, 2008 [6 favorites]

There, got out my credit card this morning and donated to Obama. First political contribution of my life.
posted by every_one_needs_a_hug_sometimes at 1:13 PM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

Please raise your hand if you are currently pro-choice enough to post about it, and will be swayed to pro-life by anything that anyone says ever.

Now, please raise your hand if you are currently pro-life enough to post about it, and will be swayed to pro-choice by anything that anyone says ever.

Finally, please raise your hand if you find the infinite and predictable repetitions at the ass-end of every abortion debate spectacularly tiresome.
posted by dirtdirt at 1:14 PM on September 4, 2008 [6 favorites]

"Are we that afraid of commitment and responsibility?"

It's not that simple, and I think you know that. Someone who's got family or freinds to support her and her child is very lucky. She can make it, and so can her baby.

What happens when there is no family to turn to? What happens when she's abandoned by that family? What happens when funding for people like her is cut because "the churches will take care of it" or "her family ought to take care of it" or "she shouldn't have done that"?

Those are the people Obama is fighting for. Those are the people you're fighting against.

On preview:
I've said it before and I'll say it again. Having an abortion is taking responsibility for your actions. Human life isn't viable until 24 weeks. It's great that Europe is taking a fresh look at viability and the rights of the unborn, because we do need to have that discussion.
posted by no, that other sockpuppet at 1:14 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

But when I was pregnant, that was someone else I was carrying.

No, it wasn't.

Your move!

Oh, yes it was.

First time, it was my son Josh. I had a threatened miscarriage and stayed in bed for two weeks early on in the pregnancy. He just graduated and is now a 2nd Lieutenant in the Air Force.

Second time, it was my daughter B. B just got back a few months ago from a YWAM DTS school, where she spent a month in Korea. She is working and going to school.

Third time, it was my daughter M. She is now married to a sailor-he is assigned to the USS Cole- and is the mom to my adorable grandson whose online moniker is The Grandbun.

So, if for some reason I felt that I needed to get an abortion during those years? That is the person I would have murdered. These are young people who have friends, who are loved, and who have made contributions to the world.
posted by konolia at 1:15 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Weren't Gandhi and MLK community organizers?
posted by kirkaracha at 1:16 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

The Palin nomination seems to have lit quite a spark even beyond this monumental post. Comments in the local paper here in Portland are a good indicator of the arguments pro and con in the real world. A quick skim indicates some dubious presentation of the truth on both sides, and as usual a diversion from the real issues. There's even a link somewhere there to the list of books at librarian.net.

Keep in mind that as Maine goes, Portland proper is a fairly progressive place. Outside of the city and surrounding area it gets pretty right-wingy.
posted by SteveInMaine at 1:16 PM on September 4, 2008

jsavimbi, before your comment disappears, I'd like to remind you of all the closeted homosexuals and hate-filled relationships due to "those people." The pictures turned against the wall, the names no longer spoken in otherwise-loving households, and official intolerance of basic human rights as they apply to love are increasingly a legacy of Republican rule. It's a goddamn shame.

Having said that, your comment lacks any compassion whatsoever and is not what I expected from you. I'm ashamed for you.
posted by infinitewindow at 1:18 PM on September 4, 2008

Weren't Gandhi and MLK community organizers?

Yeah, but they were also negroes. Or whatever the hell Gandhi was.
posted by Flunkie at 1:19 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

More preview:
"But when I was pregnant, that was someone else I was carrying."

I respect your choice to believe that. You don't respect my choice not to. You don't respect my free will. God gave that to me. Who are you to take it away?

"Who am I to decide who lives and dies?" you say? I'm myself, with control over my life, and a RESPONSIBILITY to the children I already have. Carrying the pregnancy to term even for adoption would have been economically, emotionally, and mentally devastating to me and the family I already had. You have no business deciding my fate and my childrens' fate. That's my right and my responsibility.

Hell yes I'd vote for Obama if he was "pro-life".
posted by no, that other sockpuppet at 1:19 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

While all of you were engaging konolia in yet another pointless abortion derail, didn't anyone else wonder why quonsar hadn't piped up as well?

He's gone. Cancelled his account.

He's up to some good in this world.
posted by konolia at 1:23 PM on September 4, 2008

jsavimbi and ten pounds , we've managed 3000+ posts while staying reasonably classy. Can we keep that record relatively unblemished?
posted by Shepherd at 1:24 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think deep down in his soul he knows that abortion is murdering an unborn baby.

Why should he know that, when even the antiabortion movement itself doesn't know that, and doesn't propose treating abortion as murder?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:24 PM on September 4, 2008

I just donated for the first time in my life to a candidate's campaign.

I'm not a political junkie and definitely am not a "joiner"--but I'm tired of hate, spite and faux "Christian values" being the seat of our government. McCain, Palin and most importantly the naked unadulterated ignorance, misogyny, hatred, racism, corporate-welfare-but-fuck-the-poor and sheer petty-mindedness of their supporters had me get my credit card out and donate to Obama.
posted by maxwelton at 1:26 PM on September 4, 2008 [6 favorites]

Last night was so awful and depressing even the return of Smedleyman, which I just noticed, cannot lift me.

The term 'Repuglycans' sprang unbidden to mind, but I see that it's been in use for a long time now.

What in the world are we supposed to do to make these destructive people useful members of society again?

Yeats, why did you have to do me like that with that horrible prophecy of yours that won't let me sleep at night:

Things fall apart; the center cannot hold; ...

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity. ...

A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun, ...

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

posted by jamjam at 1:28 PM on September 4, 2008

He's gone. Cancelled his account.

He's up to some good in this world.

Because the thirtieth time is the one that sticks.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 1:29 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

couldn't find the full transcript from the newshour coverage but one thing brooks keeps on pointing out is: "There's still a policy hole in the Republican platform."

shields elaborated that when a party is adrift, there's a split in direction, either to return to some (supposed) ideological purity or adapt to the (perceived) new reality, and i think that's why the GOP is having trouble filling the 'hole' or propping up the 'big tent' of libertarians and social conservatives or whatever.

i think that's what obama (and dean & co.) have been successful at; setting (articulating) a direction that not only the party can get behind, but strengthening and embiggening the party as well in the process.

i think what brooks is afraid of is turning the GOP into a bumpersticker that basically goes:

[pro-life & pro-death penalty :P and proud!]
(embracing our inherent contradictions)
basing a party on a litmus test seems a flimsy foundation upon which to build. for me, and i think brooks and others in the party realise, if they want to remain relevant -- 'the party of ideas' -- they need to take the latter route and borrow a concept from the opposition to 'adapt or die', or as stephenson might put it, "display adaptability."
posted by kliuless at 1:30 PM on September 4, 2008

He's up to some good in this world.

You mean being here in this thread isn't doing the world good? What am I still doing here???????
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:31 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

(Is someone keeping a tally for fourcheesemac?)
posted by konolia at 1:31 PM on September 4, 2008

konolia: "Truth to tell, though I would rather be bombed than grow up under the Taliban. But better to grow up, and to grow up free."

Then why the hell are you voting for religious fascists?

Okay, maybe fascists is too strong a word, but you gotta admit that the republicans are very much against personal freedom in a lot of ways.
posted by sveskemus at 1:31 PM on September 4, 2008

Just in case anyone still thinks this isn't about race, Congressman Lynn Westmoreland (R-GA) would like to set you straight:

"Just from what little I’ve seen of her and Mr. Obama, Sen. Obama, they're a member of an elitist-class individual that thinks that they're uppity," Westmoreland said.

Asked to clarify that he used the word “uppity,” Westmoreland said, “Uppity, yeah.”

When a Republican uses the word "elitist," this is what they're really saying. Westmoreland's just a little more honest than the rest of them.
posted by EarBucket at 1:33 PM on September 4, 2008 [6 favorites]

Hey, she was interested on how we all are calling it hate filled, after all it was just emphatic. I guess you can't see how naive you are if your everyday activities are considered normal by those around you.

I tried not to invoke Godwin on that one, but I guess I came pretty close. This whole USA thing is too important to be decided by those who think cuteness is plus good. They just plug their ears and vote on what they see to be as acceptable. Like an arena half-filled with middle-aged gringos. As long as the dollars roll in for me, what's the problem?

There's no rationalizing with these people, as they think their beautiful minds actually serve a purpose. Especially when they theorize that had they no children, those children that they could've hads potential friends would have been bereft of their companionship. Huh? Palm readers also use the aunt/penis/uncle analogy. It's a simple solution that simple book-burning people can relate to.
posted by jsavimbi at 1:35 PM on September 4, 2008

I am going to pledge here and now to give $5 more (*above my regular contributions) to Obama for every post konolia makes in this thread from here on out -- I want her to feel like she's having some kind of impact! Who's with me?

I'm not. While I find most of konolia's political views to be offensive, dangerous, and ill thought out, I think your attempt to drive her out of the discussion in this thread is reprehensible and it only lends credence to those who say metafilter is full of hypocritical "liberals" who want to quash any discussion that doesn't fit with our own political views.

I don't think that is normally the case, but it's what you seem to be trying to do here.
posted by Juffo-Wup at 1:36 PM on September 4, 2008 [9 favorites]

So konolia, are you going to answer my question or not? You can say with absolute certainty that fetuses are people, you ought to be equally able to tell me where they go if they die before birth, being as you have the metaphysical inside scoop here.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:37 PM on September 4, 2008

Palin's raised $8 million for Obama since last night, and they're well on track to hit $10 million by the time McCain speaks tonight. Thanks, all you first-time donors. Consider it an investment in the country your children will grow up in.
posted by EarBucket at 1:37 PM on September 4, 2008 [7 favorites]

Juffo, I'd love it if she keeps posting. By getting her to respond, it's like I'm fund-raising without having to the leave the apartment!
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:39 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Shepherd, I am focusing my comments on the discussion, not on other members of the site. IMHO, that's the classy approach. Remove the plank, and all that.

Konolia, what you might not understand is that for many people who are pro-choice, the issue of whether the fetus is sentient is pretty much irrelevant. Whether it feels pain is irrelevant. Whether it has a soul, the potential for growth, should be considered a legal person, is a valid human life, and on and on and on -- these, to many of us, are irrelevant points.

Supposing that a woman was pregnant with some rhetorical creature who was, during the third trimester, a perfect being in every way, wiser than any person who had ever walked the planet, more sensitive to pain than any empath, and whose tears healed the sick of all ailments, and this infant was conceived in love with the intention to start a family?

I would still support the woman's right to abort because it's her body, full stop.

And besides, she could just cross the border and get it done no matter how much the Republicans stack the Supreme Court. This is part of what makes single-issue voting ridiculous and ignorant, and on the abortion issue even moreso.
posted by ten pounds of inedita at 1:39 PM on September 4, 2008

Pope Guilty, is fourcheesemac your sockpuppet or did you just join the pledge? It's hard to keep up....(and let us all spare a thought for all those on dialup, who probably had to leave us two thousand posts ago)
posted by konolia at 1:43 PM on September 4, 2008

Dozens of issues in this campaign and people are still rehashing abortion? CAN. YOU. ALL. DROP. ABORTION. Neither of you is going to win any hearts or minds here.

You know what discussion we need to have? Why the rich get to live tax-free while those making minimum wage can't feed themselves. What EXACTLY all those people in Iraq are dying for. Why the US is the only first-world nation that thinks health care is a fungible commodity. Why American companies are losing ground every single day in building high-quality, innovative products. There are so many issues that effect nearly every American I don't get why you people remain fixed on an issue that is of practical consequence to a fraction of a fraction of the population. If McCain gets elected and outlaws abortion it's not like the US is going to stop its slow slide into the shitpile.

Cripes, the whole abortion dialogue is so trite, rehashed and pointless. The President runs the laws, the military and the economy, not human morality.
posted by GuyZero at 1:45 PM on September 4, 2008 [11 favorites]

I think fourcheesemac's attempt to drive Konolia out of the convo is destructive. I disagree strongly with her on about everything, except that she has the right to express her views.

Those kinds of tactics should be reserved for the likes of Westboro Baptist.
posted by QIbHom at 1:47 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Pope Guilty, is fourcheesemac your sockpuppet or did you just join the pledge?

Woo, $15 for Obama! Now answer my question.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:47 PM on September 4, 2008

Lets abort this derail, folks.
posted by delmoi at 1:47 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

So konolia, when a woman miscarries through no fault of her own or by any external circumstance- just a natural miscarriage with no apparent cause- who dies? And what happens to that person? Do they go to Heaven? Hell? Same questions with abortions

I believe they go to heaven.

That doesn't make abortion a sacrament. Heck, if you pulled out a gun and shot ME, I'M going to heaven but you'd still be a murderer.
posted by konolia at 1:48 PM on September 4, 2008

And as for people still getting abortions if they were made illegal-

At least I would live in a country where abortion was considered wrong. That stands for something.
posted by konolia at 1:51 PM on September 4, 2008

For the love of JHVH-1 can we please get back to Palin and save the Abort-O-Matic for another thread? Everyone knows which side they're on, and nobody appears to be switching soon.
posted by cavalier at 1:51 PM on September 4, 2008

Two more months of this....
posted by konolia at 1:53 PM on September 4, 2008

So if I'm understanding you right, konolia, miscarriages go to Heaven. God puts souls into embryos that he knows full well are going to be back in a couple of months, tops. And it's better to have a soul be born and have a better chance of going to Hell than to Heaven (unless you're suddenly some kind of Unitarian- I believe I recall that your stance is that only Christians and Jews get to eat pie in the sky when they die), than to simply send that soul back to Heaven?

Why do you support a course of action that ensures that souls that might have gone to eternal bliss in the company of God are sent to be tortured in his absence? Is that moral?
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:55 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Well, Konolia asked a legit question: "I'm a single-issue voter? Are you?" And got answers. Now we know. She's still single issue; I'm not.

As for standing for something to make abortion wrong, I'd rather we cared more about other things, like why abortion is necessary in the first place. That's where we could really apply some energy.

Feed the hungry

Clothe the naked

Comfort the afflicted

Visit the prisoner

Brother's keeper, Sister's keeper. Sound familiar?
posted by lysdexic at 1:55 PM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

GuyZero is right. By letting the discussion get derailed to abortion, the Republican tactics of division and derision win.
posted by QIbHom at 1:55 PM on September 4, 2008

You know what discussion we need to have?

The adoption of the International System of Units! Christ, already. First candidate to endorse this gets my vote and some cash.
posted by jsavimbi at 1:55 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

The adoption of the International System of Units! Christ, already. First candidate to endorse this gets my vote and some cash.

Um, how much are we talking here?
posted by lysdexic at 1:57 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I have a question for you, Konolia. If you had to pick only one, which is more important to you: A country with fewer abortions but with a president who believes abortion should be legal? Or a country with more abortions but with a president who believes abortion should be illegal? (Or, to ask a slightly different question, Would you rather have a country with fewer abortions but legal abortion, or more abortions but where abortion is illegal?)

I'm genuinely curious about this and trying to understand, so I appreciate that you're sticking around and conversing, and I'm asking in good faith. While I believe that this is indeed the choice we face, I recognize that you don't, so let's just consider it a hypothetical.
posted by EmilyClimbs at 1:57 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Why do you support a course of action that ensures that souls that might have gone to eternal bliss in the company of God are sent to be tortured in his absence? Is that moral?

Murder is murder. You will have to ask God THAT question.

It's above my pay grade.
posted by konolia at 1:59 PM on September 4, 2008

konolia says, “I believe they go to heaven.”

What, what what!? If life begins at conception, then when does Original Sin take effect? According to Wikipedia, both Luther and Calvin claim that happens at conception, too. So this living being with sin it its heart is allowed into heaven? Even without atonement?
posted by ijoshua at 1:59 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

So, if for some reason I felt that I needed to get an abortion during those years? That is the person I would have murdered.

Or, presumably, if you elected to not have sex those three times?

Those very real people would not exist, then, and it would be your fault.

In fact, every time you have elected to not have sex, you may have prevented a very real person from being born, from living and growing and experiencing joy. How could you do that?
posted by rokusan at 1:59 PM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

"Just from what little I’ve seen of her and Mr. Obama, Sen. Obama, they're a member of an elitist-class individual that thinks that they're uppity," Westmoreland said.

Would someone be so kind as to diagram that sentence for me? I can't make heads or tails of it.
posted by Faint of Butt at 1:59 PM on September 4, 2008

"Just from what little I’ve seen of her and Mr. Obama, Sen. Obama, they're a member of an elitist-class individual that thinks that they're uppity," Westmoreland said.
Would someone be so kind as to diagram that sentence for me? I can't make heads or tails of it.

Noun - verb - negro
posted by Flunkie at 2:03 PM on September 4, 2008 [22 favorites]

Emily, that's a terrible choice, but I choose the latter and here is why-I believe God judges nations, and one criteria is by what they do for the least of these. I believe it is a higher evil to have a government that approves of evil than to simply have a nation where the laws are good but some are evildoers.

We might not have a flaming hollow statue of Molech in Washington where we toss our infants in as some gruesome offering, but in God's eyes we are pretty much that bad.
posted by konolia at 2:04 PM on September 4, 2008

In fact, every time you have elected to not have sex, you may have prevented a very real person from being born ...

Every sperm is sacred. Execute masturbators!

monty python lives
posted by Surfurrus at 2:06 PM on September 4, 2008

There's no rationalizing with these people, as they think their beautiful minds actually serve a purpose. Especially when they theorize that had they no children, those children that they could've hads potential friends would have been bereft of their companionship. Huh? Palm readers also use the aunt/penis/uncle analogy. It's a simple solution that simple book-burning people can relate to.

True, but on the other hand, banana skirt chicken waffle.
posted by designbot at 2:06 PM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

Some of us feel that abortion was made legal ONLY BECAUSE it was LEGISLATED from the bench.

And some of you feel that equal rights for same sex couples in Massachusetts and elsewhere were made legal ONLY BECAUSE it was LEGISLATED from the bench. Then the citizens of Massachusetts ratified it and defended it against attack because they, too, believed these people had the right to equal treatment.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 2:07 PM on September 4, 2008

Seriously look, no one is going to change their opinion on abortion in this thread, it's a waste of bandwidth in a page that's already 4.4 megabytes. The moral and philosophical issues are not simple and not really resolvable.

"Truth to tell, though I would rather be bombed than grow up under the Taliban. But better to grow up, and to grow up free."

When i was a kid, around middle school or so we had a neighbor who was a single mother of a toddler. At night, often she would scream at the toddler, call her a whore. It was very disturbing. I remember one time me and my sister and mom were going out for a family bike ride, and that little toddler walked up to my mom and asked "Will you be my mommy?" it was tragic.

Not every mother loves their children. Not every mother is going to think that their child isn't punishment just because you do. And if you think that being bombed is better then growing up under the taliban, then it stands to reason that other people might think that growing up without parents who love you might be worse then being aborted. A lot of the kids who would otherwise be aborted are not going to have wonderful lives and wonderful friends.

But anyway, no one's opinion is going to change here so I think it kind of a waste of time to discuss the underlying philosophical issue. I don't think Konoila's position is really morally consistent if she thinks it's better to bomb kids (who have already been born) then it is to let them grow up "unfree."

Although another very strange thing, she goes on and on about the Taliban, but that's not even the war we're talking about. Obama supports escalating the war against the Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan.

It's the Iraq war we have an issue with, and Iraq today is actually much more oppressive to women then it was under Saddam! Under Saddam, women were allowed to hold jobs, and had mostly equal rights. Several served in his government. Now, women can't work, and under the lawlessness that's become pervasive, women are oppressed by local talibanesque thugs.

So it does seem strange (and rather stupid) to talk about the oppression of the Taliban in terms of fighting in Iraq.
posted by delmoi at 2:07 PM on September 4, 2008 [10 favorites]

Even without atonement?

They die before age of accountability, and God can certainly elect to apply His atonement to them in proxy.

After all, if you believe in the doctrine of election, He's the one who chooses in the first place.
posted by konolia at 2:08 PM on September 4, 2008

The adoption of the International System of Units!

Adopting Metric would have a greater impact on the USA than changing abortion laws. At least it would show that the government gives a shit about the pathetic state of the US manufacturing industry. Also, it would show that there was a politician that can remember even one minute of high school science.
posted by GuyZero at 2:09 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

And as for people still getting abortions if they were made illegal-

At least I would live in a country where abortion was considered wrong. That stands for something.

And the fact that you continue to ignore the issue of young women dying along with their unborn as a result of abortions being illegal underlines how little this has to do with "life". Sickening and reprehensible.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:14 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

We might not have a flaming hollow statue of Molech in Washington where we toss our infants in as some gruesome offering, but in God's eyes we are pretty much that bad.

konolia: how can you say that? How do you know what God thinks?
posted by gaspode at 2:15 PM on September 4, 2008

jsavimbi and ten pounds , we've managed 3000+ posts while staying reasonably classy. Can we keep that record relatively unblemished?

Apparently, and this goes out to those of you who have "expectations" of me as well, you haven't either read any of my posts or read too much into them. I make no excuses, I just see the world a tad differently. Compassion would've been to choose not to have a child afflicted with Downs Syndrome when you're forty fucking four years old.
posted by jsavimbi at 2:16 PM on September 4, 2008

konolia: "I believe God judges nations"

How does that work, exactly? Do you believe you yourself is less likely to go to heaven because you live in a country where abortion is legal? Would it change anything if you moved to a country where it's not? Or am I misunderstanding you completely?
posted by sveskemus at 2:17 PM on September 4, 2008

And the fact that you continue to ignore the issue of young women dying along with their unborn as a result of abortions being illegal underlines how little this has to do with "life". Sickening and reprehensible.

This is about konolia being shiny and worthy and holy and loved by God, not about the pain, suffering, and misery that she and those like her spread in their wake.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:18 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

You are. Sorry for the Ebonics.
posted by sveskemus at 2:19 PM on September 4, 2008

People who know what God thinks are a dime a dozen. Finding two of them that agree is far more impressive.

Also, last I checked, this election was taking place on EARTH and not in HEAVEN.

PLEASE QUIZ KONOLIA ON HER RELIGIOUS BELIEFS VIA EMAIL.

Also, I have a keyholder by my door that has an image of Ganesh on it - am I doomed to an endless cycle of suffering in my future reincarnations for blaspheming by using a diety to hold my keys? AND PLEASE LET ME KNOW WHAT IT HAS TO DO WITH PALIN.
posted by GuyZero at 2:19 PM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

Compassion would've been to choose not to have a child afflicted with Downs Syndrome when you're forty fucking four years old.

Oh, really? That's pretty insulting to the folks who have and are raising these children.
posted by konolia at 2:20 PM on September 4, 2008

If John McCain says tonight we're going metric, I'm switching. On that, I'm a single issue voter.
posted by birdherder at 2:22 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

konolia: You know what, I freely confess I don't know all there is to know about why we went to war only that we have been told it was to keep us from having terrorist strikes here at home.

Wow.

And you have both a son in the Air Force and a son-in-law in the Navy?

Just...wow.
posted by joedan at 2:23 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

You could begin by picking up some books or at least a newspaper and start asking yourself some tough questions.

I have. The information keeps contradicting itself, plus what I hear from folks who are there rarely correlates with anything media has to say.
posted by konolia at 2:23 PM on September 4, 2008

Adopting Metric would have a greater impact on the USA than changing abortion laws.

But it would be rather less well-supported in the South. Imagine, polluting our fine American* numbers with some prissy European ones. The math of the Antichrist!

In fact, if you wanted to rally the "low information" voters, I suspect that proposing the Metric system would be almost the same as supporting gay marriage.

(*I know, I know. It's "British". That just makes it funnier.)
posted by rokusan at 2:24 PM on September 4, 2008

All of ya'll arguing with konolia, especially using logic, aren't getting it(no offense konolia).

What position comes from a point of belief and, I think, faith. You can't argue with that using logic. Sure, it doesn't seem to make sense to ya or all the pieces don't add up to a nice, neat position. That's ok. Ya'll are never going to get her to change her mind and in the meantime, you're just spinning yourselves in knots.

In some circles, her strong and consistent belief would be regarded as positive.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:25 PM on September 4, 2008

I think we should adopt the Euro.
posted by yeti at 2:25 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

So...if god judges nations, are non-christian nations simply experiencing the wrath of god?
posted by agregoli at 2:25 PM on September 4, 2008

I'm going to have to agree. McCain! Metric! McCain! Metric! Four more meters!
posted by josher71 at 2:25 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

G.O.P. Holds to Firm Stance on Abortion: "it will not allow for exceptions in the cases of rape, incest or to save the life of the mother." Additionally, "We support a human life amendment to the Constitution, and we endorse legislation to make clear that the Fourteenth Amendment’s protections apply to unborn children." Legislation would be insufficient; the 14th Amendment defines "all persons born or naturalized in the United States" as citizens.
posted by kirkaracha at 2:26 PM on September 4, 2008

Sorry for the Ebonics.

You must have missed the memo. It's called "Community Organizonics" now.
posted by Balonious Assault at 2:26 PM on September 4, 2008 [7 favorites]

Palin's ridiculous speech laid bare.
posted by Zambrano at 2:27 PM on September 4, 2008

what I hear from folks who are there rarely correlates with anything media has to say

You are familiar with metaphors involving forests and trees, right?
posted by dersins at 2:28 PM on September 4, 2008

You must have missed the memo. It's called "Community Organizonics" now.
posted by Balonious Assault Moments ago [+]

Ewww. Go wash your mouth out with soap.
posted by lysdexic at 2:28 PM on September 4, 2008

Seconding GuyZero. Take the religion argument to email. This thread has been a piece of wonder, but turning it into a ping-ponging argument about abortion, in which no one convinces anyone else to change his or her mind, is a waste.
posted by redfisch at 2:29 PM on September 4, 2008

You could begin by picking up some books or at least a newspaper and start asking yourself some tough questions.

I have. The information keeps contradicting itself...

Okay then, if that's causing confusion, I'm going to have to strongly recommend that you keep away from the Bible at all costs.

Hey, look over there. John McCain just nominated some WOMAN as VP! Let's talk about that.
posted by rokusan at 2:30 PM on September 4, 2008

Listening to c-span now. They're predicting McCain is going to be trying to appeal to swing voters. Good cop, bad cop.
posted by lysdexic at 2:31 PM on September 4, 2008

I'm honestly a bit flabbergasted that they'r going with the "no exceptions" route over abortion. Most people in this country do NOT agree with that. I think that's a tough road for them to follow.
posted by agregoli at 2:33 PM on September 4, 2008

Enough gosh darned it. Jeezum crow. This is about the election, unless this is actually a plant to derail this thread...
posted by cavalier at 2:34 PM on September 4, 2008

Most people in this country do NOT agree with that.

If you deconstruct the GOP on a policy-by-policy basis you will come to basically the same conclusion. By using a "narrative" as Noonan so eloquently put it they make their platform palatable.
posted by GuyZero at 2:36 PM on September 4, 2008

The information keeps contradicting itself, plus what I hear from folks who are there rarely correlates with anything media has to say.

Yes, it is hard work to read past the simplistic lines we are fed. You have children going into a battle ground. It behooves you to know more than "what you hear from folks on the ground."

I am not demeaning personal experience in Iraq; I just don't think it is a substitute for detailed analysis of the historical background -- not to mention of the individual 'players.' I am glad you are on metafilter, because you can find many, many good links related to your questions about Iraq and Afghanistan.

Your job is to sift through them and find the inconsistencies. inaccuracies -- and downright lies -- that are perpetuated in 'popular myths'. You are too smart to be among those who accept being blindly led without any questioning.
posted by Surfurrus at 2:37 PM on September 4, 2008

Weren't Gandhi and MLK community organizers?

And the GOP sure as hell wouldn't want those communists to become president either.
posted by sour cream at 2:38 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Seconding the rejection of the derail, and I apologize for participating in it.

Hm. I'm at a loss. Ah, well, dinner's ready.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:41 PM on September 4, 2008

At least I would live in a country where abortion was considered wrong. That stands for something.

I can barely stand much more of this. Go to fucking Saudi Arabia. Just stop posting crap.
posted by msali at 2:42 PM on September 4, 2008

Palin has convinced me of how I need to vote. I was going to vote Green again. Her evilness has shown me the way. The Democrats are the benefactors of her lies.

But I gotta say, she's a great speaker.
posted by valentinepig at 2:45 PM on September 4, 2008

I do however believe in the concept of a just war-better minds than mine can argue whether or not Iraq and Afghanistan fit that bill.

How absolutely relativistic this moral stance is. Perhaps you should let those who know more about their own pregnancy make the decision on that one.
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:47 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Pro- or anti-abortion, konolia, I'm surprised that it doesn't bother you that Palin is a liar.
posted by interrobang at 2:47 PM on September 4, 2008

And as for people still getting abortions if they were made illegal-

At least I would live in a country where abortion was considered wrong. That stands for something.

To be clear, if given a choice between:

(A) Abortion is legal, but because of effective sex education and other measures only 50,000 people have them in a given year.

(B) Abortion is illegal, but because sex education is the less-effective abstinence-only variety, young people are ill-informed about contraception, and so on, 85,000 illegal abortions happen every year. As well, 1,000 of those abortion-mothers die, and another 10,000 are rendered incapable of ever carrying a child or otherwise permanently injured.

You would choose B.

If so, you should immediately stop harping about abortion and murdering babies, because you don't care about actual babies being actually murdered; you just want the government to officially declare those women to be WICKED EVIL.

We already know how important saving the unborn is to the Republicans: less important than preventing teenagers from receiving accurate factual information about sex and contraception.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:48 PM on September 4, 2008 [21 favorites]

konolia has said she's done in this thread, so, yeah, discussing anything else does seem like the way to go.
posted by cortex at 2:49 PM on September 4, 2008

Konolia I demand you answer my question! Who would win in the fight between a shark and a bear? Stop dodging it and answer! Remember, your answer stands for all Christians/Republicans/Woman, so you better answer quickly and correctly.
posted by garlic at 2:55 PM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

Right, I'm winding down, and it's not likely my lil' computer at home will be able to keep up with this thread. So, adieu.

But I want to leave this little bit:

"Afraid to speak? Afraid to vote? So stay home. You don't deserve democracy; you haven't earned it. You damn well ought to be afraid. It is an awesome thing to try to change the course of history. To step into the lives of other persons, to change the future, to alter the course of history. These are great and momentous undertakings, not done lightly."

-Christopher Cooper
posted by lysdexic at 2:55 PM on September 4, 2008

G.O.P. Holds to Firm Stance on Abortion: "it will not allow for exceptions... to save the life of the mother."

This is where the anti-abortion stance goes too far.

Under such a restrction an ectopic pregnancy is a death sentence. Heck, one of the biggest anti-abortion guys in the Senate, Tom Coburn, is an OB/GYN who has performed abortions in the case of ectopic pregnancies because that's what the med books say you do -- it's either that or the mother dies long before the child comes to term.

Honestly, why are both sides so reason-phobic about abortion?
posted by dw at 2:55 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Hard to believe so many are just now donating to Obama! I, who also never gave before, tapped out well before the convention to his campain. But at least folks are giving again, looks like Sarah will raise 20 million in one week, 12 for John and 8 for Barak.
posted by dawson at 2:56 PM on September 4, 2008

I freely confess I don't know all there is to know about why we went to war only that we have been told it was to keep us from having terrorist strikes here at home.

I do however believe in the concept of a just war-better minds than mine can argue whether or not Iraq and Afghanistan fit that bill.

The people responsible for this killing are doing it in your name, on your behalf. If you see fit to keep them in power, you are directly sanctioning their actions, and showing indifference over whether those actions are justifiable. You're ok with the murder of men, women and children, but not ok with the killing of fetuses. You're willing to participate in the former, even.

I'm an atheist, but if I believed in Christ I'd be praying for your eternal soul right now. It sure takes a torturous reading of the Good Book to get where you are. Try as I might, I can't find the Bible verse where Jesus says "go and smite your foes."
posted by me & my monkey at 3:04 PM on September 4, 2008

By the way, the Jesus/Pilate line from goodnewsfortheinsane above (I assume it's original)--it's got legs. Look around--people are using it everywhere. There's probably gonna be a t-shirt any minute.
posted by neroli at 3:12 PM on September 4, 2008

This did not Wendell.
posted by mazola at 3:13 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Huge fundraising boost for Obama
posted by Artw at 3:14 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Sarah Palin FAQ from Slate
posted by garlic at 3:15 PM on September 4, 2008

treading on dangerous ground with that jesus/pilate thing.

The whole messiah thing is already an issue.
posted by empath at 3:17 PM on September 4, 2008

Westmoreland's bullshit makes me really hope Sen. Obama can resist the urge to attack Gov. Palin. If the Republicans are able to frame this election as "scary doesn't-know-his-place black man threatens pretty Christian white lady," the base (and even Democratic voters in places like W VA: remember some of their comments during the primaries?) will be energized like crazy.
posted by lord_wolf at 3:19 PM on September 4, 2008

Speaking of huge fundraising boosts for Obama

konolia has said she's done in this thread

For you pledge folks out there, there's been 15 comments by konolia since the start of the drive, so your total donation amount will be $75. Congrats, I'm sure Senator Obama appreciates your efforts.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 3:19 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I saw the Jesus/Pilate thing on someone's blog earlier this morning. Not saying that gnfti stole it, but it's gettin' around indeed.
posted by GuyZero at 3:22 PM on September 4, 2008

MLK was a community organizer should be almost as effective without the religious downside.
posted by drezdn at 3:22 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Obama on palin's attacks "I've been called worse on the basketball court"

Hahaha.
posted by delmoi at 3:24 PM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

I believe it is a higher evil to have a government that approves of evil than to simply have a nation where the laws are good but some are evildoers.

I believe it is a still higher evil to have a government that performs evil actions. Our current government is doing just that, with your support. You support the killing of thousands without spending the time to see if it's justifiable. Even if we grant that there can be a "just war" - I don't think you can find that anywhere in Christ's words - you haven't made the effort to see for yourself. How does your God feel about killers, and their indifferent supporters?
posted by me & my monkey at 3:25 PM on September 4, 2008

Last post!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:26 PM on September 4, 2008

Yeah, so I remember what we thought of people in college who couldn't manage to finish up in 4 (out of 4) years.
posted by butterstick at 3:37 PM on September 4, 2008

People are curious -- and wanting to know more about Palin.

More than 40 million tune in to Palin’s speech -- "Both Palin and Obama reached about the same number of viewers."
posted by ericb at 3:42 PM on September 4, 2008

Yeah, so I remember what we thought of people in college who couldn't manage to finish up in 4 (out of 4) years.

Um, what? I took 5 years and one summer to graduate. What's wrong with that?
posted by delmoi at 3:43 PM on September 4, 2008

posted by konolia at 2:23 PM on September 4 [+] [!]

Cha Ching.

fourcheesemac: In fact, in honor of Palin's historic speech and konolia's valiant efforts and good attitude (I'm serious) in this thread, I am going to pledge here and now to give $5 more (*above my regular contributions) to Obama for every post konolia makes in this thread from here on out

konolia: I told my husband that someone gave 60 bucks to Obama because of me today-he wasn't worried about it.

Neither am I.

The psychology and economics behind your proposition, fourcheesemac, absolutely blows me away. By contributing a small amount to the Obama campaign if konolia makes a subsequent post, you are not only reinforcing your agenda, but indirectly punishing her for peddling hers. You also increase your utility in the economic sense, because while you may have donated x amount of dollars to a cause you support anyway, through your proposition you have made it so the disagreeing viewpoint is now indirectly supporting yours.

konolia saying that she is not worried about the donation is playing it extremely cool. On the other hand, being such a fervent opponent of the side being donated to, and now indirectly funding that side has to weigh in to her conscience. Basically, she now has the incentive to justify $15 worth of content every time she posts.

Brilliant, with a hint of evil genius, but brilliant nonetheless.

Sarah Palin is a great fundraiser because people dislike her policies/actions/beliefs so much that they are willing to pay to keep them out of office.
posted by clearly at 3:44 PM on September 4, 2008

Last post!

Whose?
posted by dersins at 3:45 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin's speech remixed.
posted by GuyZero at 3:47 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Actually the $60 was mine, not fourcheesemac's. I'd love to have a back and forth with konolia, there are some fascinating corners her beliefs seem to trap her into and I'd love to investigate them, but this (text on the interenet, not mefi) is such a terrible forum to have any kind of nuanced discussion.
posted by Skorgu at 3:52 PM on September 4, 2008

Palin comparison. Too easy.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:00 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I had a long chat on the phone this evening with a friend in Ohio. She had lunch today with some of her co-workers, where the main topic of conversation was Sarah Palin. They're middle-aged women, all strong churchgoers, all working for the same local college, fairly typical middle Americans, I'd say, conservative with a small 'c'.

They all watched Palin's speech last night. The consensus was that she was condescending, smug, lacking in charisma and that they would not be voting for the Republican ticket under any circumstances, even those whose politics are right of centre.

My friend said she and her friends feel insulted that the Republicans seemed to think that just by putting a woman on the ticket, Hillary supporters would vote for her and McCain.

So this kind of balances out konolia's America-wants-this view of how things are amongst the churchgoers of middle America.
posted by essexjan at 4:01 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Um, what? I took 5 years and one summer to graduate. What's wrong with that?

I'll tell you exactly what's wrong with that:

If you loved your country, during those five and a half years, you would've been a POW.
posted by Flunkie at 4:02 PM on September 4, 2008 [12 favorites]

3,333 Comments so far, all on one 4.5 megabyte page.
posted by delmoi at 4:05 PM on September 4, 2008

delmoi: sorry, that was a broad generalization. Most of them had money to burn and didn't mind re-spending tuition money. The more I think about it, it was a stupid thing to say and I'm sorry.
posted by butterstick at 4:06 PM on September 4, 2008

Hey, while I'm waiting for my hubs to finish getting ready, may as well make one more comment. (Essexjan, I suspect those women were Hillary fans. Seems the type.)
posted by konolia at 4:06 PM on September 4, 2008

The Obama campaign confirms to First Read that it has raised $8 million from more than 130,000 donors since Sarah Palin's speech last night -- and that it's on pace to raise a total of $10 million by the time McCain speaks.

The Wall Street Journal, meanwhile, is reporting that the RNC raised $1 million after Palin's speech.

Oh yeah, there's my sweet schadenfreude. I knew you wouldn't really leave me.
posted by designbot at 4:07 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

$80!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 4:08 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh, really? That's pretty insulting to the folks who have and are raising these children.

The folks? I don't give a rats ass about the folks. Screw them, they made a choice. Some of them couldn't because they didn't have a choice, thanks to that mental illness-induced sidekick phenomenon we like to call religion, but goddamn it, at least give the kids a fighting chance. Someone remind ol' Mr. Palin about the effectiveness of condoms.

Put yourself in the shoes of one of these people any day. They are abused, ridiculed and neglected on a daily basis. And that's just by their families, and they have no means to fight back. I won't mention how our society has portrayed them as imbeciles, morons and idiots throughout the ages and until this day, just because it's funny. What do you say to a forty year old woman who sits at home alone every day hoping that someone will call her, someone will marry her and want to start a family even though you know it to be impossible. Not because they physically can't, trust me, they can, but because they're unable to care for themselves, never mind take care of a family.

What do you say to 30 year-old Trig Palin when his parents are tool old/dead and can't take care of him and his siblings are too busy. Where does he go then? What does he do for the rest of his life? Fuck the parents, you should feel sorry for the kids, but as a society we don't. And if anyone has a paper trail of cutting social spending in lieu of defense, it's your happy, euphoric, fuck-the-diabled Republican Party.

^{Disclaimer: I have a cousin with Downs. Another with what we now call a developmental disability. I love them both and have known them my whole life, but I gotta tell ya, their life sucks. And I come from a family that actually cares and has been involved with the disabled for the past 50+ years. We're not saints by no means, but as Bill Clinton once said when asked about caring for the disabled, when it comes to family there are certain things that aren't questioned, they're just done. That being said, I know which way I'd choose if the situation arose.}
posted by jsavimbi at 4:10 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Konolia I demand you answer my question! Who would win in the fight between a shark and a bear? Stop dodging it and answer! Remember, your answer stands for all Christians/Republicans/Woman, so you better answer quickly and correctly.

Bear if by land, shark if by sea.
posted by konolia at 4:10 PM on September 4, 2008 [16 favorites]

I'm not surprised konolia is done. It's the same thing every time - once the arguments make too much sense, and people refuse to accept her contradictory opinions, she splits. It's ok with me if she can't explain her contradictions, but I wish sometimes we would at least acknowledge that they are so.

At any rate...I can't imagine this thread has long to live - I beg someone to attempt a new post with enough substance to continue the discussion. There is definitely going to be more to come over this VP pick.
posted by agregoli at 4:11 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think your attempt to drive her out of the discussion in this thread is reprehensible

Oh. Grow. Up. How uptight can you be? I've sparred with konolia a hundred times, and while I find her views reprehensible, I like her persona, and believe (as I said upthread) that she's brave and tough for sticking it out in such hostile territory.

I'm not trying to "drive her out." I'm trying to raise money for Obama. And while only a few people have taken me up on my matching proposal (three, I think), I note with pleasure that about 25 people have claimed in this thread to have made their first donations ever to a campaign, to Obama.

Get a grip.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:12 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Can America really keep up this intense debate all the way until the election? I keep expecting it to reach critical mass at some point and just collapse under its own weight, so that by the time the election comes around only a handful of people in the country actually vote.
posted by twirlypen at 4:13 PM on September 4, 2008

(she would at least acknowledge) Can't preview, thread is too huge.
posted by agregoli at 4:15 PM on September 4, 2008

The Obama campaign confirms to First Read that it has raised $8 million from more than 130,000 donors since Sarah Palin's speech last night -- and that it's on pace to raise a total of $10 million by the time McCain speaks.

I rest my case. From emails I have received, and a guess that the average donation here is $100, we've raised a couple of grand through collective exhortation here.

Because of konolia, I owe Obama about another $75 on top of the $200 I gave yesterday. Glad to give it.

And she doesn't care, so all is good.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:15 PM on September 4, 2008

At any rate...I can't imagine this thread has long to live - I beg someone to attempt a new post with enough substance to continue the discussion.

Heretic! Long live The Thread!
posted by Flunkie at 4:15 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Sorry, fourcheesemac, I saw it as pretty bullying and childish, myself. And yeah, I'm grown up.
posted by agregoli at 4:16 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Agregoli (excuse me. Cha ching!) as much as I would like to hang out here and post all day, I really am about to go somewhere-and it doesn't help that this thread loads a little slow.

I have hung out on this thread, for HOURS, neglecting quite a few other things I could have been doing, so please don't accuse me of dodging out.

Can't one of you dig up another Republican to spell me?
posted by konolia at 4:18 PM on September 4, 2008

Excuse me? I didn't accuse you of anything. You said you were done in the metatalk thread and cortex repeated it here. I should doubt your own word and that of a mod? Geez.
posted by agregoli at 4:20 PM on September 4, 2008

Damn elitists and their money...
posted by Artw at 4:20 PM on September 4, 2008

Count me among the first-time donators today. Fence-sitter no more.

Oh my god, I'm going to be one of those people, with a magnet on my car.
posted by emelenjr at 4:21 PM on September 4, 2008 [6 favorites]

The psychology and economics behind your proposition, fourcheesemac, absolutely blows me away

It's what's happening nationally. Sarah Palin is good for Obama. She pisses people off enough -- or scares them enough -- to give. But I'll take the credit.

I'm surprised some people are taking it so harshly. I meant is as a good natured joke. I'm delighted konolia kept posting and that the three pledgers (myself included) have *each* thus committe $80, which by my math (Ms. Pink) makes $240 for Obama. Not bad. And since he's raised 8 million post Palin, I'm proud we did our little part to help here.

When I get good and pissed off, as konolia can probably attest, you'll know it. You won't have to impute nasty motives to a bit of fun.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:21 PM on September 4, 2008

(But yes - I stand by my comment that you never address the inconsistances in many of your beliefs and stances. As is your right, of course.)
posted by agregoli at 4:21 PM on September 4, 2008

CNN's home page is now listing this story under "Latest news:"

With odds against him, McCain still feels lucky

That's the first time I've seen CNN frame it that way.
posted by Morrigan at 4:22 PM on September 4, 2008

Sorry, fourcheesemac, I saw it as pretty bullying and childish, myself. And yeah, I'm grown up.

Well, that's *your* problem.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:23 PM on September 4, 2008

$2300 per person cap / $5 = 460 posts.

According to the rules, konolia could just longboat for the rest of the night and you're out $2300.

Looking forward to konolia reading her grocery list, one item per comment.
posted by dw at 4:23 PM on September 4, 2008

Palin: wrong woman, wrong message, by Gloria Steinem.

No Questions, Please. We'll Tell You What You Need To Know. "According to Nicole Wallace of the McCain campaign, the American people don't care whether Sarah Palin can answer specific questions about foreign and domestic policy...the American people will learn all they need to know (and all they deserve to know) from Palin's scripted speeches and choreographed appearances on the campaign trail and in campaign ads."
posted by kirkaracha at 4:24 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

These are the kind of people we're fighting:

Georgia Republican Rep. Lynn Westmoreland used the racially-tinged term "uppity" to describe Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama Thursday.

Westmoreland was discussing vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin's speech with reporters outside the House chamber and was asked to compare her with Michelle Obama.

"Just from what little I’ve seen of her and Mr. Obama, Sen. Obama, they're a member of an elitist-class individual that thinks that they're uppity," Westmoreland said.

Asked to clarify that he used the word “uppity,” Westmoreland said, “Uppity, yeah.”
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:28 PM on September 4, 2008

I'm still scared shitless, but I feel a lot better after reading this thread.

As am I am scared. Joe-Six-Pack scares me.

I just came home from after-work cocktails and witnessed a heated exchange between a patron and a bar-tender. The patron was boasting that he had just purchased 3 homes in a disclosure auction and was also proud that Palin was the V.P. pick. The bartender let him know that she was as single-Mom, school-teacher by day and bar-tender by night so that she could make ends meet in raising her two children. The patron proclaimed that picking Obama would amount to continuing a "welfare state." When he got his check he asked the bar-tneder if he could get a Section 8 discount for his drinks? Ugly, divisive and right up there with the Rovian playbook.

The next 8 weeks are going to be ugly. Thank you John McSame/Karl Rove/Steve Schmidt, et al!
posted by ericb at 4:28 PM on September 4, 2008

Palin is a sideshow.

Stay focused on McCain. McCain chose her, undercutting everything he's been saying about Obama's experience level. McCain chose her, because he's more concerned about winning this election than about governance. McCain chose her, and had her recite the exact same speech that had been pre-written by W's speechwriter for whomever ended up giving that speech. McCain chose her, and her body language suggests that even she is a little disgusted with him.

McCain shouldn't be president because he has given up every quality that made him admirable in the first place in his quest for the Presidency.

McCain shouldn't be president because he's supported 90% of what's happened in the last eight years and wants to stay the course.

McCain shouldn't be president because the same people who got Bush into office (even the especially despicable ones who smeared McCain himself ) are working to get McCain elected.

McCain shouldn't be president because he lies, and surrounds himself with people who lie, and signs himself to lies.

And, and this is relevant to this thread, McCain shouldn't be president because he makes rash choices without thinking and then stubbornly sticks to them even when it is clear he made a mistake.

I'm not worried about what happens if McCain is elected and then dies; I am worried about what happens if McCain is elected and he lives.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:29 PM on September 4, 2008 [8 favorites]

What I really look forward to is when the novelty of this "fresh face" wears off in the coming weeks and Palin's Linda Chavez-style bullshit comes back to bite her on the ass, as she continues to back down from answering questions and either retreats into the shadows or fumbles spectacularly. A little excitement and a whole lot of IRL trolling is fine for a little while, but gets old quick.

Sarah Palin: the Sanjaya Malakar of American politics.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:31 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Sorry, fourcheesemac, I saw it as pretty bullying and childish, myself. And yeah, I'm grown up.

Well, that's *your* problem

Mmm. Yeah. Maturity personified, there! Goodness gracious.
posted by agregoli at 4:31 PM on September 4, 2008

I'd just like to say that I love this particular Political Cartoon.
posted by yeti at 4:31 PM on September 4, 2008

Just as a note, Lynn West was previously best known for sponsoring a bill to put the Ten Commandments in courthouses and then going on Colbert and being unable to name more than three of them.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:33 PM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

Amen Joey Michaels. The focus absolutely should be on the lies because they seem to be compounding by the minute, and really easy to refute.
posted by agregoli at 4:33 PM on September 4, 2008

A possible 'shopped photo from CNN.com of Palin talking at the RNC.

If it's shopped, and it may be, it's subtle.

If it's not edited then it is one hell of a composition.

also, yes, it's not really a very pro-Palin photo and yeah, it's a little juvenile and facile, but really, if it's not doctored then the composition is just too much. I mean, really.
posted by GuyZero at 4:34 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I live in a blue collar town (Translation: no Starbucks for us! No bookstores for us!) in NC, Garner (pop.20,000) and sitting here at my desk I can look out across the street to my neighbor's yard and see their OBAMA sign. It's getting a bit weathered because it has been there for about 5 months now.

My husband works for the Post Office, night shift, and last night he and about 50 others watched some of the RNC. The Palin speech did not go over well. Most of the comments were about how angry everyone seemed. Maybe "warming up" the audience with Guiliani wasn't such a great idea. You can call it "firing up the base" but to this 50 year old housewife watching at home, it looked more like throwing chum in the water to entice a shark feeding frenzy.

I ran errands this afternoon with my beloved and while he is usually not too interested in politics, we discussed Sarah Palin all day. Some of the topics that came up:

How about them "Hoosiers for the Hot Chick" buttons? Just think how much more support she would get if only she showed a bit more cleavage.

How locked-into this marriage is Levi? He looked a bit like a boy, who knocked-up a girl, about to meet the future in-laws for the first time ...all 300 million of them. Think there was any kind of deal brokered there? Because I sure hope he has college plans. Otherwise it will be the pipeline or the military.

As for Bristol herself, how's the home schooling going? Is that a do-it-yourself thing? Or is she being tutored and it would just be too elitist-sounding to say so. I can't see how the parents would have much time to spend helping and frankly, at the high school level are parents much involved in home schooling?

As for small town values, they don't always equal good values: Wasilla is the Meth Capitol of Alaska
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:37 PM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

Mmm. Yeah. Maturity personified, there! Goodness gracious.

You still have that stick up there, huh? Like I said, that's your problem.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:39 PM on September 4, 2008

I'm not surprised konolia is done. It's the same thing every time - once the arguments make too much sense, and people refuse to accept her contradictory opinions, she splits.

I suspect that's because if konolia allows the least little crack in her self-contradictory belief system the entire thing will shatter to dust. She'd be cut adrift, absolutely lost in a difficult world, without anyone to tell her how to be moral. That's a damn scary idea for someone who's such a bible-thumping jebus-lover. You can bet your bottom dollar she's going to keep the blinkers tight against her eyes!

I loves me the idea that God judges nations, I gotta admit. So many of those socially liberal European nations are doing quite well for themselves. Heck, even Canada has been rockin' both economically and socially for the past several years, and we just had our BC judges uphold the no-protest zone around abortion clinics and we're doing way better than NC.

It's obvious to me that if God judges nations, he loves himself the socially liberal, sex educating, abortion providing ones.
posted by five fresh fish at 4:47 PM on September 4, 2008 [8 favorites]

If you two could cut it the fuck out, that'd be great.
posted by cortex at 4:48 PM on September 4, 2008

Anyone know where I can watch Fox News online (live), wink wink, nudge nudge, say no more?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 4:50 PM on September 4, 2008

Southern Strategy:

You start out in 1954 by saying, "Nigger, nigger, nigger." By 1968 you can't say "nigger"—that hurts you. Backfires. So you say stuff like forced busing, states' rights and all that stuff. You're getting so abstract now [that] you're talking about cutting taxes, and all these things you're talking about are totally economic things and a byproduct of them is [that] blacks get hurt worse than whites.

posted by kirkaracha at 4:52 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

"Truth to tell, though I would rather be bombed than grow up under the Taliban. But better to grow up, and to grow up free."

Move to New Hampshire -- Live Free or Die!
posted by ericb at 4:54 PM on September 4, 2008

According to the rules, konolia could just longboat for the rest of the night and you're out $2300.

Fine with me. I'm maxing out either way.

/childish bully
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:54 PM on September 4, 2008

By the way, the Jesus/Pilate line from goodnewsfortheinsane above (I assume it's original)--it's got legs. Look around--people are using it everywhere. There's probably gonna be a t-shirt any minute.

Not original. Someone dropped it in a chat, and they didn't know the origin either, so I didn't really have anyone to credit. Sorry if that was unclear.

I'd love to find out whose line it is, though.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 4:55 PM on September 4, 2008

LOL, fourcheesemac, you're just proving my point. Please stop, you really want to be throwing petty insults at me? For what?
posted by agregoli at 4:57 PM on September 4, 2008

fourcheesemac, et al: I went out and registered as a Democrat today, and dragged hubby along with me to make sure his address info was up to date (it was, due to the magical DMV). I had once been active politically in another state, got burned out on it, and then moved back to Maine a couple years back. I had decided "why vote?" and was not even going to register.

But I went to city hall today and registered.

Don't give up, any of you, in your ideals. Don't any of you forget that this country was started by people in neighborhoods who talked to each other, and eventually decided enough was enough.

We don't have to take up arms as our ancestors did, but we can take up our best weapon: that is our vote.

Remember, our elected officials do not rule us. They are interviewing for the job of running our country. You are entirely correct to question anyone who asks to be our public servant, no matter what party you are affiliated with. And no one can tell you to keep silent. No one. If they do, they can come talk to me and my Revolutionary War ancestors, who are rolling over in their graves so fast it feels like I'm on a rollercoaster ride.

Go Obama/Biden '08!
posted by Marie Mon Dieu at 4:57 PM on September 4, 2008 [6 favorites]

Fine with me too, cortex, I have no idea why I'm getting nasty grams. It's pretty boring. I'd much rather keep on topic.
posted by agregoli at 4:58 PM on September 4, 2008

fourcheesemac, I think you go too far in political threads. It's one thing to have a point of view, and it's another to have such pointy elbows in nearly every comment that that you take delight in hitting folks with. You like Obama and you dislike the Republicans. We get it.

I was impressed by Obama's response to Palin, above (the one where he said he'd been called worse on the basketball court). He just sounds very composed and reasonable in the face of last night's madness, and his desire to keep the fight clean comes off as decent and good. I hope Americans are tired of the mudslinging and respect this position, and at the same time keep the dirty commercials and speeches from getting to them (even unconsciously).
posted by onlyconnect at 5:04 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh, man, I can't help it.

Metafilter: Can't preview, thread is too huge.

Can't sleep, clowns will eat me!
posted by lysdexic at 5:06 PM on September 4, 2008

I note with pleasure that about 25 people have claimed in this thread to have made their first donations ever to a campaign, to Obama.

26 now. Well, first presidential campaign donation. I've donated to congressional races in the past.
posted by dersins at 5:07 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

"Put out Country First"

What does that even mean?
posted by lekvar at 5:11 PM on September 4, 2008

"Put our Country First" that is.
posted by lekvar at 5:13 PM on September 4, 2008

And I will donate ten trillion grillion dollars! To each candidate in every party! I'm writing the large cardboard checks right now.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 5:18 PM on September 4, 2008 [20 favorites]

Something else I thought abou today: After Palin fired Irl Stambaugh, the police chief, he sued the city in part based on gender discrimination. The [Wasilla] Frontiersman wrote, "The gender discrimination issues stem from statements Palin allegedly made to others that she was intimidated by Stambaugh's size. He stands over 6-feet tall and weighs more than 200 pounds, which, the lawsuit said, is attributed to his gender." [Frontiersman, 2/26/97]

Who the hell fires their Police Chief because he is too intimidating? That would make Palin dumber than I orginally thought. Also, it would make her a chickenshit. Really. As Mayor of the town she was so scared of the man because he was a big tough guy? What on earth did she imagine he would do to her? I'm getting the idea that she was too far out of her comfort zone even as Mayor of a piddling little town in the middle of nowhere.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:20 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Kind of guessed that would be the case. Don't want to game the system or anything, but is there some type of merchandise I can purchase where the profits go to support the Obama 08 comapaign? Or something?

I'm pretty sure that when you buy a knickknack from a campaign, that's officially a donation, and counts towards your limit. So, if you're not allowed to donate (I gather you're not a citizen of the USA), I would think that you're not allowed to buy a knickknack either.

Thank you, though.
posted by Flunkie at 5:20 PM on September 4, 2008

I thought this was worth reading: Last night, Sarah Palin made a convert out of me.

Touches on the larger picture of human rights in a very effective way.
posted by jocelmeow at 5:21 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

I think "put out country" is in Nevada.
posted by ooga_booga at 5:22 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Mudflats runs the Jesus was a Community Organizer line (with a shout-out to Mefi); spreads quickly to Sullivan, Daily Kos, and about 600 other places, according to a quick Google search.

Kind of amazing that people who (presumably) aren't old hands around here are still reading it days after the post fell off the front page.
posted by kaibutsu at 5:24 PM on September 4, 2008

just to keep it interesting, a few friends (I'm a poor teacher who has given a few hundred to Obama already, like months ago, when he needed it) here (more conservative than I) are vowing to double any amount posted here in this thread as given to Obama, and donate to Palin (not McCain, one insists)

OK, I didn't want to ask, because I didn't want Republicans to get any ideas from me, but since it's now out there anyway:

If one were legally maxed out to Obama (both primary and general), is there a way for them to legally donate to the "Joe Biden for Vice President" fund, as they are two different candidates running for two different offices?
posted by Flunkie at 5:25 PM on September 4, 2008

A handful of my friends just joined a Facebook group called "Sarah Palin is the female version of Chuck Norris". True story.

....more to the point, what I'm reading as the widely dismissive attitude in this thread that Palin could possibly do any good for the McCain campaign is really disconcerting to me. There is still a huge contingent of conservative religious voters who are all fired up about her - konolia is absolutely right about this - and no amount of rhetoric about her lack of experience or lack of substance in her speech or anything is going to change that. Of course you're not going to see that represented here at all - but, in case anyone has forgotten, Metafilter is not exactly a representative sample of America at large. Just because there is no one here screaming about how awesome Sarah Palin is does not mean those people don't exist.

Like - okay. I'm from Ohio. Southwest Ohio, so, you know, right smack in the heart of a huge swing state. And all I'm saying is that she's attracting a not-negligable base because 1) she's a woman, 2) people believe that she's got some degree of humility, that she's more down-to-earth than most politicians, but also 3) that nobody walks all over her - that she gets things done. She's got a nice balance going for her - a fierce she-woman, but tempered all those things the conservatives love - mother of 5, devoted wife, etc.

I was actually at the danged rally a week ago when McCain officially announced her - because they picked my university to do that at, which was totally a strategic move, by the way, the day after the DNC, trying to cut off any momentum that might be building in Southwest Ohio - anyway, in that context, at that rally, with the flashing lights, and the glow sticks and flags they gave everyone at the door, and all the hoopla and spectacle - she came off like a rock star. And there's a good chunk of voters that will hold onto that.

All I'm saying is that just because it's clear to YOU that she's an awful, awful VP pick doesn't mean it's clear to the people who love her - and will go vote for her - that she's an awful VP pick.
posted by Quidam at 5:26 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Flunkie, as I understand things, yes.
posted by dawson at 5:28 PM on September 4, 2008

No Questions, Please. We'll Tell You What You Need To Know. "According to Nicole Wallace of the McCain campaign, the American people don't care whether Sarah Palin can answer specific questions about foreign and domestic policy...the American people will learn all they need to know (and all they deserve to know) from Palin's scripted speeches and choreographed appearances on the campaign trail and in campaign ads."

What was disgusting about that video was the way she was laughing about it, as if the idea that a VP candidate should have to answer questions from the press was absurd or something.

I've got Billo on mute right now. Anyone else going to watch the Obama interview? I'm not sure I'm going to bother watching McCain's speech.
posted by delmoi at 5:30 PM on September 4, 2008

Mudflats runs the Jesus was a Community Organizer line (with a shout-out to Mefi); spreads quickly to Sullivan, Daily Kos, and about 600 other places, according to a quick Google search.

"Jesus was a Community Organizer, and Pontias Pilate was a Governor. 'Can we cram that all on to a bumper sticker, or will we only be able to make t-shirts…"

Make the T-shirts!!!
posted by ericb at 5:33 PM on September 4, 2008

Finally caught up with the thread having started it two days late and the whole work/life thing getting in the way...

Interesting anecdote. My lady friend has been surrounded by military for most of her adult life and most of her extended family is of the el-rushbo persuasion. She's generally just gone along for the ride politically because she's not a boat rocker and generally isn't interested in the political arena. I've notice this gradual shift in her outlook since we walked out of Sicko back in the day. While I've been exposing her to ideas she would have never sought our previously, I've tried rather hard to keep from bullying her with my own political slant--she's had enough of that already.

Throughout the primary season she's been quite deliberate in seeking out positions and formulating her own views and slowly gravitating to Obama's camp. She even asked if we could watch Obama's acceptance speech the other night. This was the second time I've seen her break down and cry over something ostensibly political. The idea that some form of reasonably obtainable health care might be had--regardless of employability and insurability--is something she guards against believing in because to risk this and lose would be emotionally devastating. That night she asked if I thought Obama really had a chance. She said she's finding herself feel hope in spite of herself and the idea that we can set our sights on doing something positive feels right.

After Obama's speech she "came out" to her family that she'll be voting democratic this time around and the phone calls she's been fielding since border on badgering. It's kind of awesome to see her take inspiration from what Obama is preaching and stand up for herself against the politicking of her friends and family. She really believes in him and what he says. Even I, who once called him a bit of a cipher previously on MeFi, am considering coming back to vote democratic instead of my usual quixotic vote for the current green candidate. I want to believe too.

All of this to say we also watched Palin's speech last night after her family badgered her to at least listen to what she would say. After Palin spoke she turned to me and said she can't believe she let herself be co-opted into supporting that party for so long. That they do nothing but tear down other people. Make big elections about small things and that Palin was the smallest thing of all.

Anyway, we contributed a few dollars Obama's way last night too.
posted by Fezboy! at 5:33 PM on September 4, 2008 [17 favorites]

Im still at work, but feel free to liveblog it here (or on politocfilter) the obama interview is what i've been looking forward to today.

wrestling with pigs and all.
posted by mrzarquon at 5:33 PM on September 4, 2008

Megami, the Obama store has some neat swag. Having ordered my lawn sign, I'm now flirting with the St. Patrick's Day shirt. Not sure if you need to be a citizen.
posted by Morrigan at 5:37 PM on September 4, 2008

just to keep it interesting, a few friends (I'm a poor teacher who has given a few hundred to Obama already, like months ago, when he needed it) here (more conservative than I) are vowing to double any amount posted here in this thread as given to Obama, and donate to Palin (not McCain, one insists) up to 6,000 total. So that should help keep things even for a bit. And they are already giving the total amount, so lying that you gave 1000 won't actually matter. (actually, because he kept his word, they will not donate to any individual, but to the GOP "Victory in '08" fund).

Let me get this straight:

1. Your "friends" are going to double any amount posted here in this thread as given to Obama.

2. Except they're not: they've already giving $6000, regardless of what amounts are posted here in this thread.

3. And they're giving it to Palin, not McCain. One insists.

4. Except they're not: they are giving it to neither, but rather the general G.O.P. "Victory in '08 fund".

The one thing I am crystal clear on is that they are still choosing to identify as Republican.

Based, I am guessing, on their consistent messages and crystal-clear fiscal policies.
posted by Shepherd at 5:40 PM on September 4, 2008 [9 favorites]

Hoo boy, here we go, 9/11 as propaganda.
posted by Flunkie at 5:41 PM on September 4, 2008

Jesus was a Community Organizer
My major problem with this sound byte is that, as I've said before, Jesus, the historical Jesus Christ was not, in anyway, a 'community organizer', if anything he was a community destroyer, a rebel, a ner' do well, a blight to the community. I mean, you have read about Jesus, right? Cause this will be a huge blunder, these tee-shirts and so forth with the cute throwaway line, for those who have a passing understanding of who Jesus claimed to be, and how he was perceived by historians throughout history.
Please don't carry this too far. It will backfire very badly.
posted by dawson at 5:41 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

fourcheesemac said: I am going to pledge here and now to give $5 more (*above my regular contributions) to Obama for every post konolia makes in this thread from here on out -- I want her to feel like she's having some kind of impact!

Who's with me?

I'm in. I'm not going to have the prochoice/antichoice argument again; she and I have been dancing around that fire for nigh onto 7 years now, we're never going to change each other's minds....but I'm all about keeping her regime from getting another Supreme.

I've spent way too many years (over two decades at this point) on the front lines of the abortion fight. I've seen the people screaming and throwing things at rape and incest victims. I've personally held the line to keep entrances open at clinics. I've been beaten by people holding crosses. I've seen the mutilated bodies of little girls who were trapped in communities where there is no abortion provider who have tried everything from coat hangers to drano to self-abort. I've seen the body count, and it's all been girls.

But see, the thing that most people on the Left don't get is that the theocrats don't care about those women. They WANT those women to be punished. They would stand around and do the count of 40 lashes if they were allowed. The more women that die, the happier they get. To them, it proves that they're right.

Now, of course, once the baby is born, it's fair game. They don't care if it eats, or has diapers, or has a safe place to sleep. None of that matters. They shake their heads, and tsk, and think "Well, if they're poor, why don't they work?", at the same time they celebrate closing American factories and manufacturing plants so they can buy cheap Chinese knockoffs. They lobby against minimum wage, because it "hurts business" to pay a living wage. They lobby against early childhood programs and after school programs because it's "not our job to raise those kids". They dance with glee when American bombs fall on "infidel" civilians. They laugh at torture. They revel in the blood pools of their policies and say that all is fair in love and war. And they want their hands in every woman's uterus, because a women shouldn't be allowed to make such important decisions for herself.

So, yeah, I'll pony up more cash to try to assure that I never have to seen another mutilated 13 year old girl who is the victim of a policy that demands blood payment for having a vagina.
posted by dejah420 at 5:42 PM on September 4, 2008 [30 favorites]

Shep, you probably know what I meant. Its really sorta all in fun anyway. An amount will be given, this is just to make it more like a drinking game.
I have never and will never give money to McCain.
Obama is handling Bill with natural finesse.
posted by dawson at 5:45 PM on September 4, 2008

Seriously. It makes it look as if you're comparing Obama to Jesus. Not helpful.
posted by joedan at 5:46 PM on September 4, 2008

and Obama is the only pol I've seen/heard/followed who pronounces 'Pakistan' correctly.
posted by dawson at 5:48 PM on September 4, 2008

If John McCain says tonight we're going metric, I'm switching. On that, I'm a single issue voter.

Copycat summbitch.

It's above my pay grade.

For those of you without military experience or who have never lived in that environment, the aforementioned excuse for ignorance is a well-worn cliche employed by those with Dolphin syndrome to explain away shit they can't understand in a converstion. Asinine and tired. It's a signal to the other participant in the conversation that a. they have no idea of what they're talking about, b. all of their ideas are given to them and it's not their fault they can't remember and c. please switch topics because I'm having problems explaining my religion/racism/politics/values. Just an FYI for when you come across the phrase in a conversation, odds are pretty good you're talking to a happy ignoramus. They even chuckle when they say it.
posted by jsavimbi at 5:49 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

No Questions, Please. We'll Tell You What You Need To Know. "According to Nicole Wallace of the McCain campaign, the American people don't care whether Sarah Palin can answer specific questions about foreign and domestic policy...the American people will learn all they need to know (and all they deserve to know) from Palin's scripted speeches and choreographed appearances on the campaign trail and in campaign ads."

What was disgusting about that video was the way she was laughing about it, as if the idea that a VP candidate should have to answer questions from the press was absurd or something

Also, billo showed 5 minutes of the interview, during which he basically spouted a bunch of crap and barely let Obama speak, and he's not going to show the rest untill next week.

Lame.
posted by delmoi at 5:50 PM on September 4, 2008

Any idea if you can watch Obama on O'Reilly online, or do I need to wait for it to show up on YouTube?
posted by EarBucket at 5:52 PM on September 4, 2008

There's a Facebook Group: Jesus was a Community Organizer!
posted by yeti at 5:53 PM on September 4, 2008

An amount will be given, this is just to make it more like a drinking game.

Then tell 'em to just give it. Because I gave a BIG NUMBER to Obama today. It was our anniversary, so my gift to my bleeding heart liberal wife was a BIG NUMBER donation to Obama.

Drinking games my ass. That's how we got the current joker up there in the first place. This is about being the Leader Of The Free World, not The Guy Who Can Do The Most Body Shots.
posted by dw at 5:55 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Just an FYI for when you come across the phrase in a conversation, odds are pretty good you're talking to a happy ignoramus.

I'm pretty confident that konolia was riffing on the fact that Barack Obama recently said this, actually.
posted by Flunkie at 5:55 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Hate to talk about Palin, but when did snowmobiles turn into snow machines? Is there some distinction I'm missing, or did I just miss the change while playing Dragon Wars on Facebook?

Seriously, wanna join my alliance? I've got 3 blue wyrms, 10 swords of dragon, platemail + 1. Memail me.
posted by msalt at 5:57 PM on September 4, 2008

Hey, while I'm waiting for my hubs to finish getting ready

For a minute there, I had this image of konolia standing at the controls of a big CNC tool robot dingus, yakking about politics as she's waiting for her batch of big badass car wheels to finish being machined or complaining about having to stay late because one of the cross-beams was out of skew on treadle. It was awesome.

I'm pretty sure that when you buy a knickknack from a campaign, that's officially a donation, and counts towards your limit. So, if you're not allowed to donate (I gather you're not a citizen of the USA), I would think that you're not allowed to buy a knickknack either.

Dunno about the legality, but I know green-card-less foreigners with Obamagear, so it can be done, at least in person.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:00 PM on September 4, 2008

There's a spot in the middle where someone in the crowd yells out "I love You Obama!" And he hears it. In the middle of this speech, in front of all these people, after all these months of giving speeches every single day, 3 times a day, when you would expect himto be on auto-pilot, he hears it. and responds. "I love you back"

I'm having a hard time imagining Gordon Brown doing the same (I'm in the UK). An excellent speech from Obama. Here's the link for those that missed it the first time.

I look at the state of politics in the UK today and wish that someone with Obama's charisma and drive and love for his fellow human beings would announce themselves. You have an opportunity to vote in a man who is looking to make great changes to your country. Use that vote wisely.
posted by urbanwhaleshark at 6:04 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

If one were legally maxed out to Obama (both primary and general), is there a way for them to legally donate to the "Joe Biden for Vice President" fund, as they are two different candidates running for two different offices?

Flunkie, I don't know the answer to your question, but I do know that for Obama to be able to do anything once he's elected, he'll need as many Dems in the House and Senate as we can get.

You might want to consider giving to Dem Senate/House candidates in tight races.

Just a thought. Either way, good on ya!
posted by marsha56 at 6:06 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

kaibutsu, I'm MH over on mudflats, and I couldn't resist spreading the meme. Too good, and I only wish I'd also added in MLK and Wallace for good measure. Props to goodnewsfortheinsane and the unknown original author!

I have shaken off my apathy and cynicism and will donate to Obama for the first time tonight as McCain begins his spiel. I was AT the convention for Palin's speech -- four of us Democrat types schmoozed our way into credentials, and wow, talk about a trip to the Twilight Zone -- and the atmosphere of fear and rage was palpable. It turned my stomach. It felt like I'd snuck into a Klan rally.

I saw 10... count 'em, 10! minority attendees the whole evening, even what with talking our way into multiple sections where our passes did not enable us to go. I saw the crowd go wild chanting "Drill, baby, drill!" and wondered how so many visibly privileged people could suddenly turn into a feral, mindless pack howling for the facilitation of our nation-destroying crack addiction to oil. I sat there numb as Palin repeated lies that have been exposed in the mainstream media as total fraud... and got bring-down-the-house cheers.

There were 2-3 passing mentions the entire evening of health care or alternative energy -- mere name drops by rote, as if it would balance out the repeated and screaming calls for MORE OIL! In the name of energy independence, of course. And nary a plan in sight.

What left me the most enraged, however, were the meanspirited, shallow, frankly brainless sneers by Rudy and Palin against community organizers. So much contempt for people trying to help others around them. I'm no idiot -- it's a class narrative -- but it made me sick.

I'm convinced McCain and Palin would make George II look rational and competent. And that's the scariest part of all.
posted by clever sheep at 6:06 PM on September 4, 2008 [17 favorites]

Jesus, the historical Jesus Christ was not, in anyway, a 'community organizer'

You and your "facts". Didn't you hear Palin say she was against the Bridge last night? Facts have no place in this election.

Jesus organized his community from the saddle of his brontosaurus.
posted by yeti at 6:07 PM on September 4, 2008

I'm pretty confident that konolia was riffing on the fact that Barack Obama recently said this, actually.

Like I said, it's a well-worn, tired cliche employed by those who don't really want to explain their point of view for fear of, um, unecessary awkwardness.
posted by jsavimbi at 6:07 PM on September 4, 2008

I do not support our potential moose annihilating semi-overlord.
posted by clearly at 6:12 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

I just donated for the first time ever. I can also vote for someone I don't consider the lesser of two evils for the first time!

Si se puede!
posted by schyler523 at 6:13 PM on September 4, 2008 [6 favorites]

Jesus Christ.

McCain will assert in his speech tonight that he too would be a much-needed change agent who could help put a stop to partisan wrangling, according to excerpts from his speech. "The constant partisan rancor that stops us from solving these problems isn't a cause, it's a symptom," McCain is expected to say.

How stupid does he think we are? After last night, he's going to call for an end to bitter partisanship? Really?
posted by EarBucket at 6:13 PM on September 4, 2008

It felt like I'd snuck into a Klan rally.

Before your post disappears, I'd just like to say: Iknowhatyasayin.
posted by jsavimbi at 6:14 PM on September 4, 2008

Jesus organized his community from the saddle of his brontosaurus.

It was a Raptor of some kind, and according to experts, "We don't know if Jesus ever rode them. But he probably did!"
posted by clearly at 6:17 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Jesus, the historical Jesus Christ was not, in anyway, a 'community organizer'

I appreciate the POV that Jesus shook up the establishment, but he also hung out with the poor, the outcast, the downtrodden. Religious leaders of that time simply did not do this. I'm not even counting the miracles (since your point was the "historical Jesus"). The poor flocked to listen to this man speak in public venues for free, instead of being required to go to temple and bring something for sacrifice. He was very much a community organizer, in that sense, just as much as he was a threat to the status quo. They are not mutually exclusive.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:19 PM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

"Snow machines" is Alaskan slang for snowmobiles. It marks you as a local if you know it, and an outsider if you say "snowmobile."
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:21 PM on September 4, 2008

The adoption of the International System of Units! Christ, already. First candidate to endorse this gets my vote and some cash.
posted by jsavimbi at 4:55 PM on September 4 [3 favorites -] Favorite added! [!]

Again, an issue I could totally get behind.

Wait, I'm not American; we already have metric. Though we nearly killed a plane-load of people in the transition - you all be more careful, okay?

Course, the Brits have metric, but they can't seem to actually get that through to the food manufacturers or anyone else. Everything's still sold in imperial; it's so annoying. Not as annoying as the Americans selling milk in gallons - when I try to buy two litres, at least the Brits give me more (3.785 litres in an American gallon, 4.546 litres in a British one).
posted by jb at 6:31 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

lol, they are playing the budweiser card now. This Cindy McCain tribute is surreal.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:32 PM on September 4, 2008

Huh, the video about how John and Cindy McCain met didn't seem to mention the fact that John was married at the time. I guess I must've missed it.
posted by Flunkie at 6:33 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

I just gotta say, if anybody remembers back that far, that my original proposal was meant in a spirit of lighthearted fun. Anyone who thinks I was trying to "silence" konolia is simply wrong; you can find at least one post upthread, before all this, where I *praise* konolia for being brave and making it interesting.

I had *no* idea it would lead to an 8 million dollar haul for Barack. Had I known, I would have made it a $10 minimum bet.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:35 PM on September 4, 2008

They also seem to have left out his loving statement to her, "At least I don't plaster on the makeup like a trollop, you cunt."
posted by Flunkie at 6:36 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

If one were legally maxed out to Obama (both primary and general), is there a way for them to legally donate to the "Joe Biden for Vice President" fund, as they are two different candidates running for two different offices?

Call your local Obama office and they'll tell you exactly what to do.

Have you donated to the DNC? They'll be coordinating ads, get-out-the-vote, etc with the campaign and can accept a much larger chunk of change: $28,500 per individual. After that, the next target for money is the state party. Each state party (which will have the same coordinating efforts, especially GOTV in battle grounds) can accept $10,000. After that PACs can take $5,000. A combined biennial maximum limit of $65,500 to all parties and PACs exists.

I'm not a campaign finance lawyer; I just read the FEC webpage. This is, incidentally, how McCain managed to raise so much money despite the base not liking him that much. It's easier $60k at a time than $50 at a time.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 6:37 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Discussion of the final night of the Republican National Convention is ongoing at PoliticalFilter.

Head over there -- bring your snark!
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:38 PM on September 4, 2008

It marks you as a local if you know it, and an outsider if you say "snowmobile."

Thus the main pretense for secession and the subsequent civil war.
posted by yeti at 6:45 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Is Cindy McCain wearing glittered contact lenses?
posted by delmoi at 6:46 PM on September 4, 2008

And if such things exist, where can I buy them???
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 6:56 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Man this story has legs. I keep wondering if I'm going to get in trouble for this...
posted by sarahpalin at 9:55 PM on September 4 [+] [!]

qft
posted by yeti at 6:57 PM on September 4, 2008

Strange juxtaposition between the saccharine nature of Cindy McCain's speech tonight and the mean snideness of Giuliani and Palin last night.
posted by Flunkie at 6:58 PM on September 4, 2008

Is Cindy McCain wearing glittered contact lenses?

No, she's just stoned out of her tree.
posted by Rumple at 7:00 PM on September 4, 2008

And if such things exist, where can I buy them???

Glitter Eyes
posted by Tenuki at 7:02 PM on September 4, 2008

I feel bad for McCain. He's basically made a deal with the devil in order to get his chance at being president. I shouldn't be surprised since he's said in his book, he hasn't been running for president to advance some kind of vision, he's running for president because he wants to be president. I guess it's on his bucket list or something.

This Palin pick is saying to the evangelical hardliners, "if I win, the party is yours." This is further along the path of radicalization. Republicans across the country should take heed: your party has been taken over by theocratic radicals who have no respect for our constitution. After eight years of Bush, the Republican delegation is more conservative than 2004. The reason they are so excited about Palin is because they are looking past McCain.

Sure, the establishment thinks they're just baiting them along like they always have but that's why these folks are working so hard to get elected as delegates. They are shaping the platform to be more extreme while capitalizing on well-trained pawns to front their scheme and sell it to the American public as bipartisanship and concern for all Americans.

John McCain has accepted this role in exchange for the hope of making this a close election. And it isn't going to work. Either way, it doesn't look good for the Republican Party in the long run.
posted by effwerd at 7:03 PM on September 4, 2008 [6 favorites]

Is the O'Reilly interview online anywhere?
posted by lostburner at 7:05 PM on September 4, 2008

I will be surprised if I make it much past 3500 comments, I'm seriously bogging down in this really no so huge thread... this 'do nothing' policy does hurt the middle and lower classes who don't have the best of internet connections.
posted by dawson at 7:11 PM on September 4, 2008

lostburner, it's really not worth the effort...for real.
posted by dawson at 7:14 PM on September 4, 2008

"When you've lived your life in a box..."

...you support putting 'enemy combatants' in similar boxes?

At least McCain knew that the folks at home knew where he was.
posted by lumensimus at 7:14 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

It marks you as a local if you know it, and an outsider if you say "snowmobile."

So they're snow machine elitists?
posted by drezdn at 7:15 PM on September 4, 2008

Woah, they're green-screening him again!
posted by Flunkie at 7:15 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

The theme of tonight’s RNC speeches is “Peace,” by the way. Not sure if that’s supposed to be ironic.
posted by ijoshua at 7:17 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Hah! Anyone see the dude with the "McCain votes against vets" Sign?

There he is again.

USA! USA! USA!
posted by delmoi at 7:18 PM on September 4, 2008

Thanks to Palin I have now contributed twice to Obama. Any more and I'm over the limit.

BTW. Congratulations MetaFilter for making this another useless fetishized thread about Abortion.

It was awesome how facts and reason prevailed over emotions and fanatical religious ignorance.
posted by tkchrist at 7:19 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Yeah, green screen again. Have at it!
posted by lostburner at 7:20 PM on September 4, 2008

Anyone else imagine McCain’s relationship with his mother as like that of Principal Skinner’s with Agnes?
posted by ijoshua at 7:22 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

what the f*?! was that just now? Not one but 2 protesters escorted away?
posted by skyper at 7:24 PM on September 4, 2008

I'm seriously bogging down in this really no so huge thread...

cillit bang has created a page which shows the most recent 100 posts here.
posted by malpractice at 7:25 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

"Please don't be diverted by the ground noise and the static." He missed a good opportunity to promote the first amendment and demonstrate his open-mindedness about those protesters. Anyone know what their signs said?

Also: the crowd seems rude, interrupting him to the point of frustrating him with the chanting.
posted by lostburner at 7:27 PM on September 4, 2008

konolia writes "Some of us feel that abortion was made legal ONLY BECAUSE it was LEGISLATED from the bench. I'm old enough to remember the early Seventies."

I know konolia's no racist, and that her son-in-law (?) is black. That said, I know that the integration of schools came about ONLY BECAUSE Brown was LEGISLATED from the bench.

And that anti-sodomy laws, almost exclusively applied to gays after Griswald v Connecticut was LEGISLATED from the bench, are no longer enforced ONLY BECAUSE Lawrence v Texas was LEGISLATED from the bench.

And that states can't discriminate against Chinese-Americans or keep black people off of juries, or force Jehovah's Witnesses to pledge allegiance to the flag in violation of their conscience, ONLY BECAUSE those things were LEGISLATED from the bench.

I'm old enough to read the history of our nation and the continual fight for freedoms.
posted by orthogonality at 7:29 PM on September 4, 2008 [14 favorites]

Anyone else imagine McCain’s relationship with his mother as like that of Principal Skinner’s with Agnes?

That's inappropriate and unnecessary.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:33 PM on September 4, 2008

"Please don't be diverted by the ground noise and the static."

"...Or the issues - the wars, the economy, global warming. Instead be diverted by our talking points: Marrying fags; arugula eat'n elitists; and hockey moms!"
posted by tkchrist at 7:33 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

Side A: YOU CAN'T WIN AN OCCUPATION
Side B: MCCAIN VOTES AGAINST VETS

From PoliticalFilter

I'm not sure what the code pink lady's dress said.
posted by schyler523 at 7:33 PM on September 4, 2008

I think the music they played during the John McCain biography was the theme song from Dallas.

Does anyone know which actor did the voiceover for the Cindy McCain tribute and some of the tributes from yesterday? It's familiar, but I can't recognize it.

He is taking the high road on the Obama insults, so far. Which is nice.
posted by onlyconnect at 7:36 PM on September 4, 2008

Am I missing something, or is this whole thread 99.7% preaching to the choir?
posted by Rafaelloello at 7:36 PM on September 4, 2008

onlyconnect -- Gary Sinise did some of the voiceover work they used tonight. Also, hi!
posted by NortonDC at 7:39 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

They can't help themselves from booing.
posted by Flunkie at 7:39 PM on September 4, 2008

thanks malpractice, I guess I'd missed that.
so, probably, I bid this particular thread adieu.
posted by dawson at 7:41 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

McCain was right about the surge; Petraeus is a recognised expert in counter-insurgency warfare, and studied successful counter-insurgency campaigns by other countries. The surge was the best policy (by experience) to try to restore security. /chanelling security studies husband.

That said, McCains still wants to put the same Republican apparachiks back into the White House -- the same party who took YEARS to get that plan in place. A party who manufactured a reason to go to war, and then squandered the sucessful invasion by letting the presidential appointees tell the military leadership to go against their own occupation policies, which created the counter-insurgency to start with. And then years later they want to claim the success of the surge? This is like someone coming to your house, breaking your plates, and then asking you to be grateful that several years later he came over with some crazy glue. I totally respect the crazy glue guy (Petraeus) -- but not the party touting him.

Also, he's drunk the health care industry kool-aid on health care. The only time I've ever met a health care beaurocrat is in an American private health care clinic. And I've been under Canadian and British universal health care.
posted by jb at 7:42 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

There is still a huge contingent of conservative religious voters who are all fired up about her - konolia is absolutely right about this - and no amount of rhetoric about her lack of experience or lack of substance in her speech or anything is going to change that.

Yes, but it's not like they were ever going to vote for the "uppity" Obama anyway. And they clearly don't give a damn that she is a liar, a cheater, and a power-abuser.

They are zombie voters.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:43 PM on September 4, 2008

Am I missing something, or is this whole thread 99.7% preaching to the choir?

You know what, you're right. What this thread needs is more conflict, because large swatchs of it aren't arguments of varying levels of civility. Here, allow me.

"You left-wingers only love Obama because he's black, and therefore you're all the real racists here."

Hooray! I have saved the thread!
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:43 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

John McCain has decided that the backdrop for the most important speech of his entire career should be a malfunctioning 8-bit Nintendo game.

Someone try blowing on it!
posted by drezdn at 7:45 PM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

No, we support him because he's uppity.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:45 PM on September 4, 2008

Am I missing something, or is this whole thread 99.7% preaching to the choir?
posted by Rafaelloello at 7:36 PM on September 4 [+] [!]

Not my line, but "if it gets the choir to sing..."

Don't remember source.
posted by every_one_needs_a_hug_sometimes at 7:55 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think I'm a little in love with the Code Pink protester for getting in.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 7:55 PM on September 4, 2008

That too. It's part of being uppity.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:57 PM on September 4, 2008

You know how Sarah Palin claims she will be a voice for Special needs children? Eh, not so much. Surprise surprise, she cut funding for a special needs program that was said to have "inestimable value for people with special needs."

"Gov. Sarah Palin announced Friday she was cutting nearly a quarter billion dollars from the state's budget with the use of her line-item veto, including more than $3.2 million in Juneau projects."

"(Rep. Andrea) Doll said she was particularly disappointed that REACH's Canvas Art Studio electrical upgrades were eliminated. That project has "inestimable value for our people with special needs," she said."

"(Sen. Kim) Elton questioned Palin's criteria in making cuts, eliminating projects in Juneau while approving similar projects in her hometown of Wasilla.

"I'm upset," he said. "I don't understand it."

posted by cashman at 8:03 PM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

Has there ever been a candidate who has so cravenly tried to steal the platform of his rival?
posted by Rumple at 8:05 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

You know how Sarah Palin claims she will be a voice for Special needs children? Eh, not so much. Surprise surprise, she cut funding for a special needs program that was said to have "inestimable value for people with special needs."

Oh come on, that's not fair. You're completely ignoring the fact that that was before she had to lie to you.
posted by Flunkie at 8:06 PM on September 4, 2008 [2 favorites]

In case anyone's wondering where the "disaffected" Republicans are, they're handing their convention passes over to Code Pink:

UPDATE: CodePink spokesman Jean Stevens confirmed that the group was responsible. She said the two women forced out of the hall by security were Elizabeth Hourican, 38 years old, of Phoenix and Nancy Mancias, 38, of San Francisco. Both women are fulltime activists, Stevens said, adding that they had obtained passes to the convention from disaffected Republicans and wore pink slips saying “McCain Equals More War.”

(via)
posted by bitter-girl.com at 8:07 PM on September 4, 2008

1. John McCain was a POW.
2. Barack Obama is a vainglorious fag.
3. ?
4. WIN IN NOVEMBER!
posted by kosem at 8:08 PM on September 4, 2008

Why are they playing "Barracuda"?
posted by onlyconnect at 8:09 PM on September 4, 2008

(Step 3 is really more of a conceit. 1 and 2 should do it guys!)
posted by kosem at 8:10 PM on September 4, 2008

Wait, they're playing "Barracuda" after McCain's speech? As in Sarah "Barracuda" Palin? It really is her ticket now, isn't it?
posted by EarBucket at 8:10 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh goodie, they are playing Barracuda, how apt...

So this aint the end -
I saw you again today
I had to turn my heart away
Smiled like the sun -
Kisses for real
And tales - it never fails!

You lying so low in the weeds
I bet you gonna ambush me
Youd have me down down down down on my knees
Now wouldnt you, barracuda?

Back over time we were all
Trying for free
You met the porpoise and me
No right no wrong, selling a song-
A name, whisper game.

If the real thing dont do the trick
You better make up something quick
You gonna burn burn burn burn it to the wick
Ooooooh, barracuda?

Sell me sell you the porpoise said
Dive down deep down to save my head
You...i think you got the blues too.

All that night and all the next
Swam without looking back
Made for the western pools - silly fools!

If the real thing dont do the trick
No, you better make up something quick
You gonna burn burn burn burn it to the wick
Ooooooohhhh, barra barracuda.
posted by Rumple at 8:11 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Chris Matthews: "I believe that he will be ahead in the polls next week."

Ugh.
posted by Flunkie at 8:12 PM on September 4, 2008

The polls will narrow to a tie, or pretty close to it next week. That's inevitable. You always get a bump coming out of the convention. We'll see it starting in tomorrow's tracking polls.
posted by EarBucket at 8:14 PM on September 4, 2008

Ann Wilson revealed in interviews that the song was about Heart's anger towards Mushroom Records attempted publicity stunt involving sisters Ann and Nancy and a made up lesbian affair.
posted by lukemeister at 8:16 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Has there ever been a candidate who has so cravenly tried to steal the platform of his rival?

..........Satan?

Good point. OK, have there ever been TWO candidates who have so cravenly tried to steal the platform of their rival?
posted by Rumple at 8:18 PM on September 4, 2008

Ah, The Daily Show!

On 'community organizers': Yeah! So to everyone out there trying to make a difference in your communities--FUCK YOU!
posted by troybob at 8:18 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I don't know about you guys, but I support him because he gave me cocaine in exchange for oral sex.

Wasn't that Major Barry?

I know, they all look the same.

I'm talking about men, of course.
posted by QIbHom at 8:21 PM on September 4, 2008

Y'know, here in Hong Kong we're having our Legislative Council elections. Where's our seven-million-comment thread, huh?

Eh, never mind. Have a mooncake.
posted by milquetoast at 8:22 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Tom Ridge is on, you know, all these republicans really do look the same.
posted by delmoi at 8:24 PM on September 4, 2008

I copied and pasted this thread into MS Word and did a word count.

The result: 330,000 words, over 869 pages. We can probably subtract c. 30,000 or so to account for header text, "posted by"s , etc.

Still, that's 300,000 words.

100,000 words and you've got yourself a respectably-sized novel.

Over the course of a week, you all have managed to write three books.

That's fucking incredible. Give yourselves a hand!
posted by jason's_planet at 8:31 PM on September 4, 2008

milquetoast, while I promise to read about the Hong Kong elections on the BBC web page tomorrow, I doubt I could say anything intelligent about them.

I'd be thrilled to have a local explain why they are important, what I should be looking for, etc.
posted by QIbHom at 8:34 PM on September 4, 2008

McCain was right about the surge; Petraeus is a recognised expert in counter-insurgency warfare, and studied successful counter-insurgency campaigns by other countries. The surge was the best policy (by experience) to try to restore security. /chanelling security studies husband.

I'm still not sold on the surge being a success. To me, that's about as short-sighted as declaring Mission Accomplished all those years ago. The surge was a military action in pursuit of political ends. Restoring security was not the point of the mission, it was meant to facilitate our political goals. The Iraqi government still has a lot of issues to deal with, the Sons of Iraq and Sadr's militia being the biggest since their tenuous security is completely based on the cooperation of these two armed groups. And this is what puts us in a bind. The Shiite Iraqi government doesn't like the Sons of Iraq. The Sons of Iraq is our little security project, not the Iraqi government's. While Sadr's ceace fire is conditioned on an imminent US withdrawal. And that's just the security issues.

I understand that in the realm of media rhetoric that the "surge is a success" but I don't care much about that. I accept that the security aspect of the surge was a success but we need to be committed to leaving. We need to use this opportunity to arrange for a peaceful withdrawal and aftermath. That's when the surge will be a success. McCain, as you point out, is committed to towing the Cheney legacy, which is more inclined to push for a long term SOFA if they could manage it. I don't trust that McCain wants to leave Iraq, I don't care how right he was about some small part of our larger concerns.
posted by effwerd at 8:37 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

1. John McCain was a POW.
2. Barack Obama is vainglorious.

But...that means he's protected! By the red, the black and the green. With a key!
posted by cashman at 8:40 PM on September 4, 2008

I gave my first donation to a (national) candidate tonight as well, while catching up on the last 24 hours of this thread. billyfleetwood and XQUZYPHYR did it for me. Thanks folks.

(I have given to a few ActBlue site candidates before, and some local candidates)
posted by glycolized at 8:40 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Aside from that being, you know, fucking insane, does it strike anyone else as kind of creepy that a vast quantity of now-turned-on McCain voters are essentially hoping that he'll die?

I was thinking something similar. I mean, Obama supporters thought Hillary would be scary as VP...
posted by effwerd at 8:43 PM on September 4, 2008

McCain-Palin = Nixon-Agnew, With Some Buchanan For Seasoning

"John McCain and Sarah Palin are tapping into the angry, conservative, anti-government populist tradition represented in recent years by politicians ranging from George Wallace to Richard Nixon to Spiro Agnew to Pat Buchanan....This venerable GOP game plan - practiced by such Republican luminaries as Lee Atwater, Karl Rove, Roger Stone and Charlie Black -- seeks to turn the election into a choice between two fundamental visions. On one side are -- as described by Palin on Wednesday night -- good people, with clear implications about the 'other' people:
'I grew up with those people. They are the ones who do some of the hardest work in America, who grow our food, run our factories, and fight our wars. They love their country, in good times and bad, and they're always proud of America. I had the privilege of living most of my life in a small town.... And since our opponents in this presidential election seem to look down on that experience, let me explain to them what the job involves....I might add that in small towns, we don't quite know what to make of a candidate who lavishes praise on working people when they are listening, and then talks about how bitterly they cling to their religion and guns when those people aren't listening.'"

posted by ericb at 8:44 PM on September 4, 2008

A fundraising letter that Sarah Palin's camp sent out Thursday afternoon tells potential donors, "Unfortunately, as you've seen this week, the Obama/Biden Democrats have been vicious in their attacks directed toward me, my family and John McCain. The misinformation and flat-out lies must be corrected."

Except, when questioned by reporters, Palin's team could not name a single member of the Obama/Biden team who had indulged in such attacks. Memo to Palin: you're not in Wassila anymore.

ABC News' Jake Tapper, reports:

The response I got was that Obama spokesman Mark Bubriski erroneously attacked Palin as a supporter of Pat Buchanan.
That's it. That's the evidence.

An attack on Palin herself.

In other words, they can't name one person affiliated with the Obama-Biden campaign who attacked the Palin family.

Sara Kugler of the Associated Press got a slightly different answer when she posed the same question to a spokeswoman for Palin. "Asked who was to blame, the spokeswoman said, 'You want me to tick through all the stuff that's been ticking through all the blogs the past few days? What about the stuff that was on Daily Kos, that rumor that was spread?'" Kugler says.

Actually, as Tapper notes, there are some politicians who have personally attacked opponents' family members. For instance, in 1998, it was John McCain who joked, "Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly? Because her father is Janet Reno."
posted by Rumple at 8:44 PM on September 4, 2008

Stable and enduring peace.

Who needs or wants that?
posted by Rafaelloello at 8:50 PM on September 4, 2008

I'm still not sold on the surge being a success

Yeah, I agree .... the first Mission Accomplished was the textbook Pyrrhic victory as the Iraqi army and radical elements melted away or played possum, only to live to fight another day. Which, really, makes complete sense rather than running straight into US firepower. I am not so sure the apparent success of the "surge" is not just the same pattern repeated, on a smaller scale. Essentially, the Iraqi resistance isn't going anywhere despite the conceit it is composed mainly of Syrians or Afghanis or whomever .... it is overwhelmingly Iraqi and they are there for the longhaul. I just don't see it as a winnable occupation....
posted by Rumple at 8:51 PM on September 4, 2008

Glenn Greenwald:

"The Republicans are well aware that they can't possibly win the election if it is even partially decided based on issues. They need and intend to win despite the fact that Americans hate their positions on the issues, and to do that, they want to ensure that a majority of Americans love and respect the strong, honorable, principled, culturally familiar all-American mavericks John McCain and Sarah Palin (even if they don't agree with them on everything) while strongly disliking that wishy-washy, snooty, foreign, exotic, self-absorbed Eastern elitist Barack Obama (even if he says the right things on issues)."

posted by ericb at 8:55 PM on September 4, 2008

Rafaelloello writes "Stable and enduring peace. Who needs or wants that?"

Certainly not Raytheon or or Boeing or Halliburton or The Carlyle Group or KBR or Lockheed-Martin or Northrop Grumman or McCain-Palin.
posted by orthogonality at 8:56 PM on September 4, 2008 [5 favorites]

The theme of tonight’s RNC speeches is “Peace,”

Gee that bookends nicely with John McCain's new platform/soundbite/meme: Fight! Fight! Fight! I'm going to fight for YOU!

I feel like I'm being asked to vote for Rocky Balboa.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:05 PM on September 4, 2008

I did a post in June on the surge and how it hasn't accomplished most of the political goals President Bush said it would. It did, however, accomplish the two actual goals:

1. Kicking the can down the road for the next president to deal with.
2. Reducing American casualties enough to drop out of the news.

Meanwhile, according to a story on Bob Woodward's upcoming book:

... the U.S. troop "surge" of 2007, in which President Bush sent nearly 30,000 additional U.S. combat forces and support troops to Iraq, was not the primary factor behind the steep drop in violence there during the past 16 months.
...
Overall, Woodward writes, four factors combined to reduce the violence: ["groundbreaking"] covert operations; the influx of troops; the decision by militant cleric Moqtada al-Sadr to rein in his powerful Mahdi Army; and the so-called Anbar Awakening, in which tens of thousands of Sunnis turned against al-Qaeda in Iraq and allied with U.S. forces.

I would think that you're not allowed to buy a knickknack either.

How about a paddiwhack?
posted by kirkaracha at 9:05 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I grew up with those people. They are the ones who do some of the hardest work in America, who grow our food, run our factories, and fight our wars.

That reminds me of something:

I've always been amazed that the very people forced to live in the worst parts of town, go to the worst schools, and who have it the hardest are always the first to step up, to defend us. They serve so that we don't have to. They offer to give up their lives so that we can be free. It is remarkably their gift to us. And all they ask for in return is that we never send them into harm's way unless it is absolutely necessary. Will they ever trust us again?

posted by kirkaracha at 9:09 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

In related news -- I agree with Jeffrey Toobin | CNN [video | 00:37]

“I thought it was the worst speech by a nominee that I’ve heard since Jimmy Carter in 1980. I thought it was disorganized, I thought it was it was theme-less, I thought it was very, very boring…I personally cannot remember a single policy proposal that he made because they had nothing connecting them. I found it shockingly bad.”

posted by ericb at 9:12 PM on September 4, 2008

I'm still not sold on the surge being a success.

I think you are right -- it is too soon to say whether the surge will be a success or not, and I think that the Republicans who claimed so tonight were being somewhat irresponsible.

However, the surge is following the military equivalent of medical "best practices" -- that is, it is a strategy based on careful study and understanding of past experiences with counter insurgency warfare around the world and in history, and was the best current option for the situation they were in. But that they ever got to that situation is, of course, a damning indictment of the Bush administration.
posted by jb at 9:13 PM on September 4, 2008

John McSame?

Oops. Tom Ridge calls McCain "John Bush"
posted by ericb at 9:15 PM on September 4, 2008 [4 favorites]

I had the privilege of living most of my life in a small town.... And since our opponents in this presidential election seem to look down on that experience, let me explain to them what the job involves....I might add that in small towns, we don't quite know what to make of a candidate who lavishes praise on working people when they are listening, and then talks about how bitterly they cling to their religion and guns when those people aren't listening.'"

the privilege of living in a small town where the bars stay open until 5:00 a.m. and you can buy crystal meth on any corner. The small town where just as soon as we get that whole eminent domain thing cleared up our 15 million dollar sports complex is going to be built so that our boys have something else to do besides get the local girls preggers. The small town where the mayor has banned any book she doesn't personally like. The small town where the sewer system is falling apart but by god we have a 1 million dollar park. Small. Town. Small. Small. Small
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:16 PM on September 4, 2008 [10 favorites]

Republican ("talking points") surrogates on Steve Schmidt's shit list in the past two days: Peggy Noonan, Mike Murphy and Tom Ridge. Who's next?
posted by ericb at 9:19 PM on September 4, 2008

Obama's victory speech in June in the same building.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:20 PM on September 4, 2008

I'm still not sold on the surge being a success.

A further response from my husband, who actually studies this stuff (re surge):

"Your comment is absolutely correct. Saying 'the surge is a success' is entirely premature. On the other hand, it is probably true to say that the 'surge' has obtained a large measure of success, perhaps that it is 'successful so far'. Certainly, those who claimed that it would be a disaster from the start have been shown to have been far too pessimistic.

I do have another problem, though: I put the word 'surge' in scare-quotes, above, because I think the very term is a misleading political slogan, and one which both distorts public understanding and gives far too much credit with the people who ran the war on a political level. It somehow seems to imply that they were just ramping up the intensity of operations, giving a 'big push' (military historians in the crowd might appreciate that this term is used advisedly) to finish the job.

In fact, the 'surge' was nothing of the kind. It was a complete reformation of coalition strategy. Really it should be called something like the 'start of counterinsurgency operations'. Why is this a better term? Well a) it calls it like it is and b) it points up the sheer madness of fighting an insurgency, for years, without engaging in counterinsurgency operations. I tell you this one for free: this war, up until the adoption of the counterinsurgency manual at the end of 2006, is going to be in textbooks about military incompetence. "
posted by jb at 9:21 PM on September 4, 2008 [13 favorites]

How many, is it estimated, were in attendance at the GOP Convention? I can't find anything on this.
posted by skyper at 9:30 PM on September 4, 2008

Barracuda? They totally should have went with Magic Man.

Cold late night so long ago
When I was not so strong you know
A pretty man came to me
Never seen eyes so blue
You know I could not run away
It seemed we'd seen each other in a dream
It seemed like he knew me
He looked right through me, yeah
"Come on home, girl" he said with a smile
"You don't have to love me and
Let's get high awhile
But try to understand
Try to understand
Try try try to understand
I'm a magic man.
posted by Sailormom at 9:38 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

lostburner: Is the O'Reilly interview online anywhere?

Part 1 of 4, I guess? (Other parts of it to be aired on future shows.)
posted by XMLicious at 9:50 PM on September 4, 2008

Former Bush Speechwriter/Washington Post Columnist Michael Gerson Slams McCain Speech [Video | 02:46]
posted by ericb at 9:52 PM on September 4, 2008

Oooh, sorry guys look's like John McCain isn't for the Metric system.
posted by delmoi at 9:54 PM on September 4, 2008

Really it should be called something like the 'start of counterinsurgency operations'. Why is this a better term? Well a) it calls it like it is and b) it points up the sheer madness of fighting an insurgency, for years, without engaging in counterinsurgency operations.

I believe Obama will be far more effective in commandeering counterinsurgency than McCain. McCain will be a blunt weapon. Obama would be more subtle. He is a master of communications, messaging, planning, executing. Those are the skills the terrorist organizations are using to sway local opinion.

The war is going to be won by wit, not fists.

ah, but what if you don't want to stop the war? is it not a necessary sign of the Christian Armageddon? why, I guess you'll be voting for McCain!
posted by five fresh fish at 9:58 PM on September 4, 2008

Republican ("talking points") surrogates on Steve Schmidt's shit list:

Don't forget national co-chairman Meg ("I don't see any sexism in Palin coverage") Whitman
posted by msalt at 10:05 PM on September 4, 2008

Mickey Kaus:
Tomorrow's Marching Orders Today: If there were some sort of tacit liberal MSM conspiracy--a hypothetical!--Plan 1 was to knock Palin off the ticket out of the box with various unvetted home state scandals. Plan 2, the plan currently in place, is to force Palin to submit to "real interviews" where she will supposedly reveal her embarrassing unpreparedness for the office.

May I suggest to my fellow conspirators that we move directly on to Plan 3: Forget Palin. Stop writing about her. If we make the election about Palin, we will lose. She'll probably win her debate and will almost certainly handle the interviews well enough (to the satisfaction of the voters, at least, if not the experts). The election's not about Palin. It's about McCain. We can beat McCain.
posted by dawson at 10:31 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

Angola is also having an election - arguably an equally or more historic one. They vote today. (When I am up late, NPR plays BBC world service, and it reminds me of how much more there is out there.)
posted by jb at 10:32 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

OH HAI Palin may have another ethics investigation in Alaska, this time for leaking personnel details about our old buddy Wooten
posted by delmoi at 10:32 PM on September 4, 2008

(Just getting into the cut and paste business here, seems the in thing!)
John McCain will win by making Barack Obama look un-American. That's sensitive stuff. Hillary Clinton destroyed herself trying to use it. But Palin may know how to use it. Palin's attacks are potentially dangerous because they are aimed at the crucial voting bloc of women and middle-class voters who can see their lives in her life. Obama talked about coming from a middle-class life. Palin still lives one.
John McCain will win by making Barack Obama look un-American. That's sensitive stuff. Hillary Clinton destroyed herself trying to use it. But Palin may know how to use it. Palin's attacks are potentially dangerous because they are aimed at the crucial voting bloc of women and middle-class voters who can see their lives in her life. Obama talked about coming from a middle-class life. Palin still lives one.
John Dickerson
posted by dawson at 10:44 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

sorry about the double post of the quote there, I didn't do it on purpose, unless Calvin was right.
posted by dawson at 10:48 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin owns three homes. That qualifies as living a middle-class life?
posted by NortonDC at 10:57 PM on September 4, 2008 [3 favorites]

konolia, I wanted to echo other people's comments: thanks for giving us the Republican point of view.

You know what, I freely confess I don't know all there is to know about why we went to war only that we have been told it was to keep us from having terrorist strikes here at home.

Short version:

The US and its NATO allies (including the UK, France, Canada, and the Netherlands) went to war in Afghanistan after 9/11 because al-Qaeda was based there, with the protection of the Taliban. After helping the Northern Alliance to overthrow the Taliban, however, the US and its allies have struggled to stabilize the central government.

The war in Iraq is a very different story: one of utopian fantasy. Bush and his advisors believed in a kind of domino theory: they believed that the US could overthrow Saddam Hussein and establish a friendly, democratic government in Iraq, after which people throughout the region--in Iran, for example--would rise up and demand democratic freedom from their governments, making the Middle East a US sphere of influence (like Eastern Europe after the fall of the Berlin Wall). They scorned diplomacy; of the US's major allies, they were only able to convince the UK to take part. And in planning for the post-war period, they were recklessly optimistic: they didn't want to have to convince public opinion to support a long-term, expensive war, so they reduced the invading force to an absolute minimum. That was fine for the invasion itself, but it left the US without enough troops to fill the security vacuum once Saddam Hussein had been overthrown; hence the ongoing chaos and violence.

All along, there was no shortage of experts telling them that this was extremely unwise (Scowcroft was National Security Advisor during the Gulf War), but nobody in the Bush administration listened.

While I respect the sacrifices that US soldiers are making to try to stabilize Iraq today, I can't help but feel that they're desperately trying to compensate for the past irresponsibility and incompetence on the part of the Bush administration, and that in the end, their sacrifices may simply be in vain. The US is basically on its own, and it may simply not have enough soldiers to make Iraq stable, meaning that at some point the US will have to withdraw and hope for the best.

I really hope that in November, when choosing between the Democrats and the Republicans, American voters think pretty hard about competence. The neo-conservatives in the Republican party have demonstrated tremendous recklessness and incompetence over the last eight years, but according to Michael Tomasky, they still dominate Republican thinking about foreign policy.
posted by russilwvong at 11:02 PM on September 4, 2008 [11 favorites]

Palin owns three homes. That qualifies as living a middle-class life?

John McCain said "middle class" is anybody with annual income under $600,000.
posted by tkchrist at 11:02 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

I myself have annual income under $600,000.
Well under.
posted by dawson at 11:08 PM on September 4, 2008 [1 favorite]

When did he say $600k? When rick warren asked him he said anyone making less then Five million. Seriously. This guy has no idea what people make. He said Americans were too lazy to pick lettuce for $50 an hour.
posted by delmoi at 11:22 PM on September 4, 2008 [8 favorites]

Konolia:

Do you believe there is a war on terror?

Do you believe that war can be won by John McCain and Sarah Palin? I see the one as a club and the other as a series of mistakes in the management of her own life, a litany of mismanagement and abuses of power.¹

Do you believe that you can simultaneously achieve a change in the abortion laws and allow your country to succeed in a war that requires skillful, subtle management of global personalities? Where is there any evidence that a Republican government can do such things?

Your vote is literally one that punishes the USA. The USA does not suffer because God is pissed off with it: the USA suffers because single issue voters can't be arsed enough to consider the consequences of their actions. One worm-belly higher than those who can't be arsed enough to vote; but well below those that actively seek to make an informed decision.

¹She has lost a business due to tax evasion, attempted to suppress the whatever Amendment freedom of speech, let alone freedom of choice, by banning books, abused her police, racked up a whalloping debt, and left the real business of management to an assigned administrator.

Others, read your history books. It appears to be a legitimate US Government site, and has what I feel is a very direct accounting of the history of the USA. It doesn't seem to pull punches or give accolades undeservedly.

reads to me that both parties have taken a large step to the Right. The Republicans might do well to claim the space the Democrats left. That's gotta be a bigger part of the population than the wingnut Armageddon brigade.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:31 PM on September 4, 2008

Obama talked about coming from a middle-class life. Palin still lives one.

John Dickerson and I must have radically different ideas about what it means to be middle-class. I'm in the middle class myself. I'm doing pretty well, actually. I only have one house, though, and I haven't been able to use the power of the state to fire my enemies.
posted by me & my monkey at 11:34 PM on September 4, 2008 [8 favorites]

When Dwight Eisenhower succeeded Truman as president, he accepted the basic framework of government responsibility established by the New Deal, but sought to hold the line on programs and expenditures. He termed his approach "dynamic conservatism" or "modern Republicanism," which meant, he explained, "conservative when it comes to money, liberal when it comes to human beings."

Ooh, interesting, that. How did it all go so wrong? I must read on...

(there are passages in the cival war history that indicate to me the original Republican party was all about social progress, and the Democrats were racist bastards! it's late, I'm having trouble parsing... I can't stop reading, either!)
posted by five fresh fish at 11:45 PM on September 4, 2008

konolia, I wanted to echo other people's comments: thanks for giving us the Republican point of view.

She's not a Republican, she is a hijacker of the Republican Party. I've been reading my history, and it seems to be suggesting the Republican Party has not always held the odd ideas held by Konolia.

The Party has an infection. One of those diseases you get when you sleep around without using a condom. It probably turns you gay, too. That explains the page boys, bathroom stalls, and stripper press corp reporter.

maybe the Democrat party should split, and restore the center. next election cycle, though.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:58 PM on September 4, 2008

Just explain how you sell the unintended pregnancy of a 17-yr old as "family values" in the same breath that you admit your opposition to sex education (except for abstinence only -- do you see the irony here?) and birth control. Despite the fact that the young father's MySpace page proclaims "no kids in my future," they will be getting married. No pressure there. So, this makes it a wholesome, family values moment because the premarital, pre-adult parents are going to make the baby "legal."]

Posted by: Jeanne on Sep 3, 2008 6:11 PM: My 7 Yr Old Learned About Pre-Marital Sex From John McCain.

I think she states the absurdity of the position quite well.

Teenagers have been having since forever and a day. They also used to get married at an astoundingly young age. It is no longer fashionable for them to do so, as evidenced by the reaction to kids like Palin and Spears.

We can not have a society in which teenagers are not expected to marry and in which we do not have teenaged parents.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:18 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

This is totally inspiring. A little* piece of historical narrative unfolding. I'm completely captivated. There really is no better discussion of this topic anywhere on the whole internet.

And just wondering, is there a wiki for this thread yet? Perhaps a list of comments with links in them? Also having a hard time with loading and re-loading the thread every time I want to see the un-truncated version of a favorited comment...suggestions?

*By "little", I mean looooooooooooooong.
posted by iamkimiam at 12:22 AM on September 5, 2008

To sum up: these days, in general, "dems" play fair and "pugs" don't. (Can you imagine McCain coming out and saying "back off" to any right-wing smear effort?) And I guarantee you no one is going to "read their history books" and change their mind. However, here's a book that you may find useful over the next couple of months.
posted by telstar at 12:35 AM on September 5, 2008

Oh, and will somebody please do a MeFi Music mashup of Barracuda and Kenny Loggins, with a FENCE! THE! BUILD! chorus cheer?
posted by iamkimiam at 1:06 AM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

"I tell you this one for free: this war, up until the adoption of the counterinsurgency manual at the end of 2006, is going to be in textbooks about military incompetence."

From the top down. The awful truth is that there were plenty of military voices about where mistakes were being made ahead of time, especially in terms of occupation strategy. They just got shunted aside for not being cheerleaders.
posted by BrotherCaine at 3:37 AM on September 5, 2008

there are passages in the cival war history that indicate to me the original Republican party was all about social progress, and the Democrats were racist bastards!

This was true within my lifetime, especially in the South. I was raised in the labour wing of the Democratic Party, and the Blue Dogs were quite an embarrassment to us.

Where this changed was Nixon's Southern Strategy. (Actually, the tactic had been around for a bit, but he was the first to make it really work.) Except that the Republicans had already betrayed the blacks. See Slavery by Another Name for how this happened, and for a pretty good explanation of why race is still a huge issue in the US.
posted by QIbHom at 3:55 AM on September 5, 2008

A further response from my husband, who actually studies this stuff (re surge)

Wait, your husband studies both American military maneouvres (Iraq) and famous cruise ship disasters (Titanic)? What kind of school is this?
posted by onlyconnect at 4:14 AM on September 5, 2008

The surge is a success? I love how McCain has gotten away with that line.

That's like saying your legal defense was a success because despite having knifed and gutted an old man on the street for pleasure, you were only convicted of murder 2.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:23 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

OK, this is all I am going to say on this subject.

Scott Richter was denied an emergency motion to have his divorce records sealed in Alaska. Yesterday.

You know who wants them? The National Enquirer, that's who.

Prepare to have your head spin, or explode, from the irony of it all.
posted by fourcheesemac at 4:47 AM on September 5, 2008 [4 favorites]

So, konolia: If it turns out she had an affair with her husband's business partner and destroyed his marriage, will you guys still be excited about her?
posted by EarBucket at 4:55 AM on September 5, 2008

I put the word 'surge' in scare-quotes, above, because I think the very term is a misleading political slogan, and one which both distorts public understanding and gives far too much credit with the people who ran the war on a political level.

Yeah, that's exactly what eats at me every time I hear, "the surge was a success," it's a slogan with the underlying premise that the Iraq War is redeemable as long as we are "winning" militarily. I definitely prefer the nuance but I don't mind the term "surge" even though I agree completely that it's misleading. The main thing for me is that we remain focused on why we did it. This is why I liked what Obama said about it on Billo's interview. He is willing to concede to their quaint little slogan but then gets right back to pointing out what it was for.
posted by effwerd at 5:09 AM on September 5, 2008

EarBucket: What's important is that she's happy - and anti-abortion - now.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 5:14 AM on September 5, 2008

This shit is hilarious

That random building behind John McCain when he was giving his acceptance speech turns out to be the Walter Reed Middle School in North Hollywood.

You think they did a google image search for Walter Reed Army Medical Center?

How incompetent can the republicans get?
posted by afu at 5:14 AM on September 5, 2008 [14 favorites]

That is hilarious. He spoke in front of a picture of a rich kids' middle school which thoughtfully also included a lime-jello green lawn for his pasty white face to really pop from, and which looked a lot like he was showing us a picture of one of his mansions. They didn't have permission to use their closing song. Half the facts they claimed in speeches were easily proven to be lies.

These guys are professionals? No, they're Republicans.
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:21 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

There's only one metric that matters: the "surge" will be a success when the United States can bring its occupation forces home from Iraq.

Have the troops come home? No? Then the surge is not yet a success.

That is to say, it's still a failure.
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 5:30 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

"Terrorist states are seeking new-clear weapons without delay ..."

Does this come from her speaking notes, which would include pronunciation guides, or is it from some automated voice-to-text service?

CNN Confirms: They wrote her script that way so she'd stop saying it wrong.
posted by rokusan at 5:33 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

Also: CNN Photo Editors Still Can't Resist
posted by rokusan at 5:41 AM on September 5, 2008

When did he say $600k? When rick warren asked him he said anyone making less then Five million. Seriously. This guy has no idea what people make. He said Americans were too lazy to pick lettuce for $50 an hour.

Yes, but to be fair, after the crowd started booing him and shouting that of course they'd pick lettuce for $50 an hour, he clarified his position:

You'd have to do it all Summer.

ALL SUMMER!

My friends, you couldn't do it.

(not joking, he said this to them)
posted by Flunkie at 5:44 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

Scott Richter was denied an emergency motion to have his divorce records sealed in Alaska. Yesterday. You know who wants them? The National Enquirer, that's who.

Oboy. This truly is a magical thread that keeps on giving.
posted by rokusan at 5:48 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

May have missed it being mentioned above, but she's lying about selling the governor's jet on eBay, too. (And she lost a good chunk of money for the state when she sold it cheap through an aviation broker.)

Is there anything she says that is *not* a lie?
posted by fourcheesemac at 5:53 AM on September 5, 2008 [4 favorites]

So, konolia: If it turns out she had an affair with her husband's business partner and destroyed his marriage, will you guys still be excited about her?

I think it's pretty clear that cognitive dissonance is completely irrelevant to many Republicans.
posted by Flunkie at 5:54 AM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

I've been reading my history, and it seems to be suggesting the Republican Party has not always held the odd ideas held by Konolia.

Sullivan:

I'm sure conservatism will one day recover - because it is right about the main issues: government needs to be kept in its place, taxes should be low and budgets balanced, individuals should be able to pursue their dreams as free of government control as possible, families do matter and need to be free from government interference, free markets and enterprise are the only guarantees of prosperity, moral choices - and their consequences - should be faced by the individual responsibly, and we have to be strong in our defense and prudent in foreign policy. This is the conservatism I still believe in. Deep down, I'm sure McCain does too. But it will only come from the ashes of this fundamentalist, mean-spirited, parochial, arrogant, big-spending, irresponsible shambles of a party.

posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 5:59 AM on September 5, 2008 [7 favorites]

Scott Richter was denied an emergency motion to have his divorce records sealed in Alaska. Yesterday. You know who wants them? The National Enquirer, that's who.

Ru'roh!
posted by milarepa at 6:00 AM on September 5, 2008

Konolia and the republicans is excited about her because the people who tell her The people who tell her (and the rest of the republican base) are exited about her. Now, that isn't in particular a bad reason to like someone, if you have people who's opinions you trust, it's reasonable to listen to them.

I think the reason they like her is that she's been working the republican circuit for years, networking, sucking up to the right people, and so on. So they "know" her. She's also, unlike Huckabee, and unrepentant economic conservative and she LOVES OIL. What more could the republicans want?

Nevermind that in practice she's a socialist, taxing big oil and writing checks directly to the state's citizens.

It's also interesting that Konolia says she doesn't know what's going on in Iraq because there's "conflicting information". Well, that's because some people are lying. And reading a bunch of wingnut blogs is not the same thing as "studying"
posted by delmoi at 6:11 AM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

So far, the public inquiries don't seem to encompass her husband Todd Palin. I am curious about what type of role "the first dude" might play, if any. Looks like he may have been very actively involved in her role as Governor: Shadow Governor?
posted by madamjujujive at 6:14 AM on September 5, 2008

It appears Mr. Richter and the Palins know each other.
posted by EarBucket at 6:26 AM on September 5, 2008

So far, the public inquiries don't seem to encompass her husband Todd Palin.

Yes, why was this clown actively involved in the governing of Alaska, or at least in the botched attempt to get his former brother-in-law fired?
posted by jsavimbi at 6:36 AM on September 5, 2008

I'm sure conservatism will one day recover - because it is right about the main issues: government needs to be kept in its place, taxes should be low (...)

I'm sick of this shit. Our taxes are low, relative to historical rates. For rich people, they're extremely low, relative to historical rates.

The Republicans have spent the last eight years lowering taxes, nonstop. And now, the answer (to everything), according to them, is "We need to lower taxes".

Fuck that. We need bridges that don't collapse, body armor for our soldiers, levees that don't break, schools that don't suck, ports whose incoming shipping is inspected, and on, and on. For those things, we need to pay taxes.

I have yet to hear a major Republican say how low taxes should be. This seems to be because the Republicans are not the party of "low taxes"; they're the party of "lowering taxes". No matter what.
posted by Flunkie at 6:36 AM on September 5, 2008 [24 favorites]

It appears Mr. Richter and the Palins know each other.

Well, why wouldn't they? I mean, the whole reason he got a divorce was because he was having an affair with Sarah. That would be kind of hard (but not impossible!) without knowing eachother.
posted by delmoi at 6:36 AM on September 5, 2008

The Palin-lied-about-selling-jet-on-eBay link above has this extra-funny tidbit:

Moreover, it's bizarre because eBay founder Meg Whitman works for the McCain campaign! She's right there! In the building! And surely she can explain to Palin that she is getting that weird bit of biography wrong.

Also, watching Carly Fiorina and Meg Whitman play bad cop/good cop on Palin creeps me out a little. Fiorina says ooooh, the coverage is sexist. Whitman says nah, not so much. Meanwhile they're both trying to launch political careers themselves, according to their Silicon Valley "hometown" paper.

Thing that squicks me about Fiorina is that when she blasts the media coverage of Palin, she also pulls Hillary Clinton into the equation and essentially blames the Dems for not protecting her.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 6:46 AM on September 5, 2008

she's lying about selling the governor's jet on eBay, too.
Good god. I know we throw the term "pathological liar" around a lot or "she lies every time she opens her mouth" but in this case it really is true. Reading about her in the past 4 days I have come to suspect much of what she claims but even I didn't think she she would lie about selling the plane on eBay when the founder of eBay, Meg Whitman, was there in the audience! Maybe it was supposed to be some sort of free publicity?

Yesterday I was thinking that someone really should start a web site that simply keeps a list of the lies. It doesn't have to go back to her childhood or even college days, just start with her entry into politics. 1.) Lied about her experience on her application to be mayor. She undoubtedly lied on her application to be a city council member, but I haven't heard anything about that yet.

I'm just so grateful that I am not related to this woman. She is so fond of "shading" the truth that I imagine it must be a daily chore keeping up with her: "Mom have you seen my pink sweater anywhere?" "No." "Mom, I just found it on the floor of your closet." "I guess the dog dragged it in there." "Mom, it smells like your perfume." "I think your sister wore it and spilled some of my perfume on it." "Mom, my sister has been staying with Aunt Jane all week." "I guess your dad must have worn it and then hugged me."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:50 AM on September 5, 2008 [4 favorites]

Now that I've had time to think about it, I'm really wondering if there isn't something else going on with the plane sale. She says she wanted to save the tax payers so she sold the plane on eBay. Except Alaskans don't pay state sales or income taxes and she lost money selling the plane. I'm wondering about a.) where the money came from to originally buy the plane and b.) what she did with the money that she got from selling the plane. Is it possible there is some funny business with that? Maybe it was the grand gesture of penny-pinching, but that has never been her forte in the past. She likes to blow through her budget and then raise taxes, go into debt, or ask the feds for more money. As mayor and then Governor she has done all three. So why did she sell the plane?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:09 AM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

XQUZYPHYR, your attacks on Sarah Palin are rooted in nothing more than sexism. Can't you get past your sexism to see she's just a hard-working hockey mom? Your sexism is causing American jobs to move overseas, as well as American troops to die in Iraq, who were sent there to protect sexists like you.

Why do you hate America, you sexist?
posted by mkultra at 7:43 AM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

Moreover, it's bizarre because eBay founder Meg Whitman works for the McCain campaign! She's right there! In the building!

I don't think Meg Whitman knows about every single sale on ebay. And she did say she "put" it on Ebay, not that she actually managed to sell it there. (Or did she ever actually say she sold it on ebay?)
posted by delmoi at 7:51 AM on September 5, 2008

I thought you people were savvy, but you're completely missing how forward thinking McCain was with the Palin pick. See, McCain is so web 2.0 that it hurts, so he decided "why should I vet my vice presidential pick—I'll crowd source the vetting." So by shaking her closet to see if any skeletons would fall out, he was showing how forward thinking he is.
posted by drezdn at 7:52 AM on September 5, 2008 [3 favorites]

Heart disapproves of the use of "Barracuda."
posted by Morrigan at 7:54 AM on September 5, 2008

Planes are extremely expensive to upkeep, and also quite expensive to fuel. I don't think there's funny business around her decision, although the execution sounds pretty iffy.
posted by felix at 7:58 AM on September 5, 2008

OK I'm not saying Sarah Palin had an affair. Someone just put that on the National Enquirer, that's all.
posted by fourcheesemac at 7:59 AM on September 5, 2008

I know the Republicans are running from Bush, but the Democrats need to remind people that the Republicans were in control for most of his administration. Republican president. Republican House. Republican Senate. Republican Supreme Court. Republican war in Iraq. Republican failure with Hurricane Katrina. We already know what will happen with the Republicans in charge.

Heart's Nancy Wilson responds to McCain campaign's use of 'Barracuda' at Republican convention:

Sarah Palin's views and values in NO WAY represent us as American women. We ask that our song 'Barracuda' no longer be used to promote her image. The song 'Barracuda' was written in the late 70s as a scathing rant against the soulless, corporate nature of the music business, particularly for women. (The 'barracuda' represented the business.) While Heart did not and would not authorize the use of their song at the RNC, there's irony in Republican strategists' choice to make use of it there.

That's after Heart had asked the McCain campaign not to use their music.

Is there anything she says that is *not* a lie?

As Mary McCarthy said of Lillian Hellman, "Everything she [says] is a lie, including 'and' and 'the.'"

Ooh, interesting, that. How did it all go so wrong?

The Solid South voted for the Democratic candidate in every presidential election from 1876 until 1948. The Dixiecrats (who later became Republicans) took four Deep South states in 1948 after Truman started supporting civil rights and integrated the armed forces. The South supported Democrat Adlai Stevenson against Eisenhower in 1952 and 1956, supported either Kennedy or segregationist Harry Byrd in 1960, then voted Republican in LBJ's landslide in 1964. The South switched in 1964 after LBJ signed the Civil Rights Act. The only state outside the Deep South that voted Republican that year was Arizona, where the Republican candidate, Barry Goldwater, was from (Goldwater opposed the Civil Rights Act). Compare the Electoral College maps for 1952, 1956, 1960, 1964, and 1968. Carter took the South in 1976 and Clinton took some southern states in 1992 and 1996, but they were from the South (and they ran against less inspiring opponents). The Republicans started their Southern strategy in the '60s. Other than the Carter and Clinton examples I mentioned, the South has voted Republican since 1964.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:02 AM on September 5, 2008 [6 favorites]

Dems hog all the good songs!
posted by QIbHom at 8:06 AM on September 5, 2008

This thread is getting unwieldy as hell. Can someone please chunk it out into 12 different threads and start a new website for it?
posted by stupidsexyFlanders at 8:07 AM on September 5, 2008

McCain was right about the surge; Petraeus is a recognised expert in counter-insurgency warfare, and studied successful counter-insurgency campaigns by other countries. The surge was the best policy (by experience) to try to restore security.

I'm not a securities studies expert, but I have spent some time with Iraqi asylees, and I would have to disagree. The reduction in violence after the surge is not the result of the surge, but the result of a decrease in violence after a successful campaign of ethnic cleansing in mixed Sunni/Shia neighborhoods. The violence has abated, because the neighborhoods are now ethnically homogeneous garrisons with no one left to "cleanse." The words "ethnic cleansing," which we heard so often during the Balkan Wars of the 1990s, apply just as much if not more to the interethnic warfare in Iraq.

In addition, another drawback to the "surge" is that we pay money to locally based, pro-Iranian Shia leaders in exchange for keeping the peace over their neighborhoods. This makes perfect sense from a short-term counterinsurgency perspective, and it's a time-honored tactic of counterinsurgency. Unfortunately, it makes no sense from a broad national security standpoint, because we are saber-rattling against Iran at the exact same time that our counterinsurgency policy depends on funding the most pro-Iranian elements in Iraqi society.
posted by jonp72 at 8:12 AM on September 5, 2008 [3 favorites]

Mark me down as another first-time donor. I didn't think I'd see another candidate in my lifetime who would excite me as much as Dean did five years ago (when I was, sadly, a totally broke-ass college student who could only contribute time), but I stand happily corrected. Now I'm mulling over the logistics of setting up a pledge-drive-style donation promise, wherein I promise to donate $1 for every thinly-veiled racist jab, reductio ad absurdum of a tenet of the Democratic party, or hateful speech given by one of the Republican candidates, but I think that a) I'd need a team of 12 to track them all down on Fox News and right-wing blogs and b) I'd go broke by 5 PM.

If Barack manages to cash in on Palin and McCain's speeches to the tune of a 10-1 fundraising differential, like he's poised to, it will make for the happiest bit of schadenfreude I've seen in my life.
posted by Mayor West at 8:13 AM on September 5, 2008 [3 favorites]

If the Sarah Palin/Scott Richter extra-marital affair rumor pans out, there goes the "Sanctity of Marriage" argument.
posted by ericb at 8:13 AM on September 5, 2008

Palin Taking 'Timeout' From Campaign Trail. "Alaska First. Alaska Always."
posted by kirkaracha at 8:14 AM on September 5, 2008

Watching McCain's speech in rerun last night on PBS, I noticed that very briefly after McCain stumbled over the phrase adult illiteracy, they flashed on some guy holding a sign that read McCain is a Mavrick. Is that an intentional misspelling? (I'm holding open the possibility that it might be; politics does some nefarious things to the language.)

Also, was anyone struck by the fact that Palin's hockey mom comment at the convention was prompted by the hockey moms 4 palin signs all over the place? Maybe it is taken for granted that they program the signage, but it read to me as a completely manufactured moment. It just struck me as funny that perhaps somebody tried to do the same with the Mavrick sign to make it seem McCain was being extemporaneous.
posted by troybob at 8:15 AM on September 5, 2008

Also: Does anyone know how to locate text for her Alaska speeches? (I can't get it in Google because of all the convention-speech noise.) I'm hearing from a friend of an Alaskan that her convention speech was a tweaked version of a speech she has already given--perhaps her acceptance speech as governor or as candidate for such--I'm guessing in terms of her personal history. This might not be true, but I'm curious.
posted by troybob at 8:26 AM on September 5, 2008

All political conventions have been scripted and manufactured for a very long time now, troybob.

They used to be a lot more fun to watch, when you didn't know what was going to happen. Now you know what will happen, just not all the details of how.
posted by QIbHom at 8:26 AM on September 5, 2008

Palin Taking 'Timeout' From Campaign Trail.

Wha-? It's been, what, not even a week?
posted by Artw at 8:27 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

After chewing for a couple of days on the other night's combined Giuliani/Palin hatefest, I've also just joined the First Time Obama Donor pool. I guess what tipped me over the edge was the frustration of seeing McCain harp about ending partisan rancor when the night before his surrogates had flooded the place in bile.
posted by COBRA! at 8:30 AM on September 5, 2008 [6 favorites]

Palin Taking 'Timeout' From Campaign Trail.

Wha-? It's been, what, not even a week?

3,593 comments is enough to exhaust anyone, even a moose-huntin' hockey-mom mother of five!
posted by rokusan at 8:40 AM on September 5, 2008

The Daily Show's take on the community organizer sneering.

Also, in case anyone missed it, the crowd incessantly chanting DRILL BABY DRILL (YouTube 1, 2) is required viewing; it gave me nightmares. Surely one of the most bizarre and terrifying slogans in recent American history, and possibly proof that the End of Days is upon us. And lo, there will be blood.
posted by naju at 8:47 AM on September 5, 2008

don't think Meg Whitman knows about every single sale on ebay. And she did say she "put" it on Ebay, not that she actually managed to sell it there. (Or did she ever actually say she sold it on ebay?)
posted by delmoi at 10:51 AM on September 5

Bingo! That luxury jet was over the top. I put it on eBay.

But I still think there is more to it than that. I think she sold it for a reason, and it wasn't because "While I was at it, I got rid of a few things in the governor's office that I didn't believe our citizens should have to pay for." It was already paid for and she was so awash in oil money she gave everyone in Alaska a check.

Just like I don't believe she fired the Governor's personal chef because it was too much money. Two parents working full time and she fires the chef, to save the tax payers? So who is making dinner? I'm wondering if it was more like she felt her family's privacy was being invaded.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:49 AM on September 5, 2008 [3 favorites]

Also, watching Carly Fiorina and Meg Whitman play bad cop/good cop on Palin creeps me out a little.

Ok, my head just exploded a little. To be frank, I haven't been keeping an eagle eye on the McCain campaign for a long time -- settling for news media to watch it for me -- and I hadn't realized these two were up and up in the ranks. When I started seeing the names in this thread I figured "Naw, they just have a similiar spelling, or I must be remembering this wrong, these can't be.."

Huh. Silicon Valley all up in the republican grill. Go fig. Lower taxes, I guess?
posted by cavalier at 8:53 AM on September 5, 2008

Someone started a new thread but didn't link it here, that I can see. New thread. Although so far it seems far more jokey than this one, which is disappointing - head over there and let's continue!
posted by agregoli at 8:56 AM on September 5, 2008

They fooled ya. It's not related to Sarah Palin. Got me too for a minute.
posted by cashman at 8:57 AM on September 5, 2008

Perforar Bebé Perforar!
posted by cortex at 8:59 AM on September 5, 2008

They fooled ya. It's not related to Sarah Palin. Got me too for a minute.

Hopefully it will motivate everyone to give $100 to Michael Palin, possibly in the form of a DVD purchase.
posted by Artw at 9:01 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

So...could someone make a new thread then? Cause this one is dying. Please?
posted by agregoli at 9:03 AM on September 5, 2008

Yeah, that is not the new thread, even though it keeps trying to be in fits and starts.
posted by cortex at 9:04 AM on September 5, 2008

This is the new thread. It always was the new thread. It comes from a small town and has authenticity, unlike that other thread. I guess the thing about this thread is that it's sort of like that other thread, except that it has real responsibilities.

Y'all following the hilarious "Walter Reed" screwup in McCain's speech backdrop last night?

Obviously, they spent all their time, talent, and cash on the Palin speech.
posted by fourcheesemac at 9:09 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

The Big Plane sell-off is documented here: The Anchorage Daily News 4/22/07

Former Gov. Frank Murkowski bought the jet, which cost the state about $2.6 million, over the protests of the Legislature and used it to fly around the state, sometimes mixing campaign errands with government business.

She made a campaign promise to sell it off but it took 4 attempts to unload it. This is a pretty funny quote: The state's definitely not going to give this plane away. If that was the case, then they would have sold it on eBay Heckmann said. [...] Meanwhile, the state is stuck making quarterly payments of about $62,000 on the Westwind II.

eBay=giving things away is the part that strikes me funny
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:12 AM on September 5, 2008

...they flashed on some guy holding a sign that read McCain is a Mavrick.

Photo.
posted by ericb at 9:28 AM on September 5, 2008

Whoops! Just as I was ready to dismiss the plane story as a non-starter, McCain was giving a speech right now being carried on CNN and said a.) She sold the plane on eBay, and b.) she made a profit. Both are documented non-truths. Could we have a failure to communicate here? Is he buying her bullshit or is he just happy to spread it?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:30 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

Y'all following the hilarious "Walter Reed" screwup in McCain's speech backdrop last night?

Good to see they vet their photography selections as well as they vet their candidates.
posted by EarBucket at 9:32 AM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

well she is in Wisconsin right now giving the same speech, recycling her "greatest hit" lines. It's pretty much word for word, but she is doing a lot of reading. McCain is standing by woodenly fiddling with his ring, grinning weirdly and waving to the crowd when she praises him.

McCain now talking saying he cannot wait to introduce her to Washington and set her loose on the pork-barellers - - going on and on about how their day is ended, how they are going after corruption, going after the earmarks. Gonna clean things up.

Says the line he liked best in her speech was that she sold the plane on ebay.

What a weird pairing Sarah & Cindy are - culture clash to the max.

The crowd is screaming the creepy "drill drill drill" thing. Haven't seen the crowd so hard to say if it is huge or just loud.

"He wants to increase (repeat louder) increase your taxes." "Change is coming. Change is coming."
posted by madamjujujive at 9:34 AM on September 5, 2008

"I just got an exclusive interview with the heckler who interrupted McCain's address. His message was that the GOP nominee has voted against support for veterans. His name is Adam Kokesh, he is 26, and he served in Fallujah in 2004. He is a Ron Paul supporter. A friend of Kokesh's who was a Paul alternate delegate provided him with credentials to get into the Excel Center. Kokesh is a member of the group Iraq Veterans Against the War."
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 9:36 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

Please let the press call John McCain on flat out lying about it. Pleeeease.
posted by cashman at 9:41 AM on September 5, 2008

Gotta say I'm very relieved that Heart did not give permission for them to use Barracuda. If someone has the wherewithall at this point, could they let me know what other songs were used without permssion? I'm googling but failing.

Anyway, a small room full of green-card-holding Canadians at the TIFF made maximum donations to Obama yesterday, so add that to the tally. None of us would have ever considered such a thing if it weren't for Sarah Palin.
posted by zarah at 9:50 AM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

Perforar Bebé Perforar!

Burn Baby Burn!
posted by lukemeister at 9:51 AM on September 5, 2008

It's pretty much word for word, but she is doing a lot of reading
Yeah that's what I keep hearing. She isn't very good at memorizing speeches. Which means she will have to repeat a lot. Great chance for the media to debunk the lies ahead of the speech.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:53 AM on September 5, 2008

Investigation into Palin Now on Fast Track -- "Sources Tell ABC News that Report Will Be Released Almost Three Weeks Early"
posted by ericb at 10:03 AM on September 5, 2008

McCain's backdrop last night: from The West Wing.
posted by mothershock at 10:06 AM on September 5, 2008

Wha-? It's been, what, not even a week?

Well, she does have a lot of investigations to testify for. It was interesting how MSNBC announcers euphemistically said she was going back to "take care of some business" -- but not mention the major scandal she's going through right now.
posted by delmoi at 10:08 AM on September 5, 2008

There's some discussion of the green screen, etc., in this new thread.
posted by cortex at 10:15 AM on September 5, 2008

If obama and biden can't beat these jokers, there's absolutely no hope left for american politics.
posted by milarepa at 10:16 AM on September 5, 2008

Investigation into Palin Now on Fast Track -- "Sources Tell ABC News that Report Will Be Released Almost Three Weeks Early"

So is it early because it's damaging and they want time to try to soften the blow, or is it early because somebody made it clear to the investigators that this needed to go away. Because a day or two ago they were fighting tooth and nail to get it delayed and released after the election. Now it's not only on time (Oct 31), it's 3 weeks earlier? Somebody got a talking to.
posted by cashman at 10:21 AM on September 5, 2008

Legal Compliance:

* I am a United States citizen or a lawfully-admitted permanent resident.

* I am at least 16 years old.

* This contribution is not made from the general treasury funds of a corporation, labor organization or national bank.

* This contribution is not made from the funds of a political action committee.

* This contribution is not made from the treasury of an entity or person who is a federal contractor.

* This contribution is not made from the funds of an individual registered as a federal lobbyist or a foreign agent, or an entity that is a federally registered lobbying firm or foreign agent.

* The funds I am donating are not being provided to me by another person or entity for the purpose of making this contribution.

posted by ocha-no-mizu at 10:31 AM on September 5, 2008

So far, the bump is looking small.
posted by dw at 10:32 AM on September 5, 2008

five fresh fish: [konolia is] not a Republican, she is a hijacker of the Republican Party.

fff, you're not doing a very good job of demonstrating Canadian tolerance for diversity of opinion. Don't be so quick to insult, condemn, and dismiss konolia and social conservatives in general. American public opinion is not the same as Canadian public opinion. Wikipedia:

Two polls were released in May of 2007 asking Americans "With respect to the abortion issue, would you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life?" May 4th through 6th, a CNN poll found 45% said pro-choice and 50% said pro-life. Within the following week, a Gallup poll found 49% responding pro-choice and 45% pro-life.

There are undoubtedly many socially conservative voters who are backing the Democrats. Do not insult them.

Moreover, I would suggest that as outsiders (I'm also Canadian), we should be careful to avoid making inflammatory statements when commenting on US politics. As Jan Wong puts it: Don't write anything on the Internet that you wouldn't want to appear on the front page of the Globe and Mail tomorrow.

Canadian public opinion on abortion. There's no consensus on when life begins: about a third believe it begins at conception; a third believe it begins at some point during pregnancy; a third believe it begins at birth. But there is consensus on what public policy should be: 78% believe that it should remain legal and widely available. There's no such consensus in the US: 39% believe it should remain legal and widely available, 38% believe it should remain legal but with greater restrictions, 22% believe it should be illegal.

When there's no consensus, certainty that one's beliefs are correct and that others' beliefs are wrong and contemptible makes it extremely difficult for people to talk to one another. That's why it's called a culture war: war is what happens when people stop talking.
posted by russilwvong at 10:35 AM on September 5, 2008 [5 favorites]

Another non-US-citizen and would-be first-time donater here. I live in the US, but am not yet a Green Card holder. I just loaded up my cart at the Obama Store with a bunch of stuff, but any purchases there are (I think) subject to the same rules as donations

You could try calling on your local Obama office and asking if they'll sell or give you stuff, given you're not legally allowed to take your money.
posted by dw at 10:38 AM on September 5, 2008

Gotta say I'm very relieved that Heart did not give permission for them to use Barracuda. If someone has the wherewithall at this point, could they let me know what other songs were used without permssion? I'm googling but failing.

As I understand it, as long as the Republicans pay their dues to ASCAP, they don't need the artist's permission. In effect, Heart gave their legal permission when they (or their record label) recruited ASCAP to manage the public performance rights of the song, since ASCAP is a voluntary scheme.
posted by cillit bang at 10:40 AM on September 5, 2008

I firmly believe polls are largely useless, particularly this far out, however Rasmussen:

A week ago, most Americans had never heard of Alaska Governor Sarah Palin. Now, following a Vice Presidential acceptance speech viewed live by more than 40 million people, Palin is viewed favorably by 58% of American voters. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 37% hold an unfavorable view of the self-described hockey mom.

The figures include 40% with a Very Favorable opinion of Palin and 18% with a Very Unfavorable view (full demographic crosstabs are available for Premium Members). Before her acceptance speech, Palin was viewed favorably by 52%. A week ago, 67% had never heard of her.

I guess that means out of a hundred people, 18 are here?

(I don't have a very, or even unfavorable opinion. I like her a lot, and I'm still planning to vote Obama. I didn't realize I hate to go on 'auto-hate grasp at straws, crazy-man' about the whole thing.)
posted by dawson at 10:42 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

zarah> Gotta say I'm very relieved that Heart did not give permission for them to use Barracuda. If someone has the wherewithall at this point, could they let me know what other songs were used without permssion? I'm googling but failing.

One was a Jackson Browne song -- try adding his name into your searches.
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 10:52 AM on September 5, 2008

So far, the bump is looking small.

It'll move some more. The race should be tied (or a few points one way or the other) by Sunday; if it's not, that's a very bad sign for McCain.
posted by EarBucket at 10:52 AM on September 5, 2008

There are unnerving connections between Palin and Dominionism, and McCain and Dominionism. That's well worth looking into, folks, because it's the short steep route to theocracy.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:37 AM on September 5

FFF, the Dominionists detest the thought of a woman in power. So that would really, really surprise me.
posted by konolia at 10:53 AM on September 5, 2008

spelling errors happen when you don't/can't preview.
I guess what I'm saying is veep picks in themselves don't sway me much. If they did Obama would have lost my vote with Uncle Joe.
posted by dawson at 10:55 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

trying to respond to a thought/point in this ungainly thread is like trying to talk via telegraph when you're accustomed to satellite phone.
Over.
posted by dawson at 11:00 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

Also, for the record:

IF it turned out to be true she had an affair, I would want her to step down. For the very same reason Edwards should have not run.....and especially since she accepted this after the Edwards scandal broke. That would be the height of stupidity.

Having said that, however....I have pretty good inside knowledge of just how dirty politics can get. For example, a NC politician I know (who shall remain nameless-not that most of you would be familiar with him) is well known for having his opponents literally destroyed by lies and innuendo-case in point, one poor soul wound up falsely accused of having been a child molester-lost his marriage, wrecked his life, accusations NOT TRUE...politics is a very very dirty business sometimes. So be very careful before you believe something you hear about someone running for office. Make sure you get the facts and not the clever lies of a hidden opponent.
posted by konolia at 11:00 AM on September 5, 2008

Both are documented non-truths. Could we have a failure to communicate here?

Nope. If you repeat a lie enough times, it becomes true. If you wanted the Republican convention for any length of time, say an hour, you would have seen this principle in action. You gotta remember, not everyone lives in a reality based world.

Also, if you tell enough lies, then your opponent is left dazed and confused trying to refute them all. Admit it, isn't one of your first reactions with all this shit, "Where do we start?"

Even if someone does start hitting them for all the lies they're spewing, then the "You're attacking me unfairly" card is played and NO ONE, so far, has had the guts to power through that crap and deal with the firestorm of outrage from people upset that you're attacking a that pretty little woman or a real American hero, 'cause then you're fucking with their mythology.

Also, who's up for 4000? Push, people, PUSH!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:01 AM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

For example, a NC politician I know (who shall remain nameless-not that most of you would be familiar with him) is well known for having his opponents literally destroyed by lies and innuendo-case in point, one poor soul wound up falsely accused of having been a child molester-lost his marriage, wrecked his life, accusations NOT TRUE

yeah, but what was his stance on abortion?
posted by pyramid termite at 11:06 AM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

Seriously. It's amazing how many people pro-soldier and with family and friends in the military will repeatedly vote for the people who care about soldiers the least. It's all lip service.
posted by agregoli at 11:06 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm up for 4000.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 11:09 AM on September 5, 2008

McCAIN-PALIN: A BRIDGE TO NOWHERE!
posted by ericb at 11:11 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

Whoa, it took me three days o mostly-scrolling-past everything interspersed with a tiny bit or reading to reach the bottom of this historic thread. Anyway, here's the conclusion I've come to-- The Palin nomination was purely and simply about bring home the rabid nut-job wing of the Republican party, since they were pretty much in open revolt over McCain. The gamble is whether they lose more independents/leaners than they gain in nutjobs.

There's no possible amount of reasoning with the rabid fundies that I see, though, if the last 8, no sorry -- 16 years prove anything at all. Sarah Palin could eat a live infant on stage, and they'd turn to one another and say "Thank GOD someone carried it to full term!"

The swallows have come home to Capistrano in full force. This was never about the PUMAs.
posted by Devils Rancher at 11:15 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

I am going to pledge here and now to give $5 more (*above my regular contributions) to Obama for every post konolia makes in this thread from here on out -- I want her to feel like she's having some kind of impact!

I believe we're at 20. I've paid up 'til now; I'll check back after a few days and see if I owe any more.
posted by MrMoonPie at 11:15 AM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

With the repeating comments we are going to get to 4000 in no time!
posted by dirtdirt at 11:17 AM on September 5, 2008

So much for transparency and letting us get to know her.

McCain Campaign Plans To Keep Palin Away From The Press

"Yesterday, McCain adviser Nicole Wallace dismissed the fact that Gov. Sarah Palin has yet to take any questions from the press. 'So what?' she scoffed. Today on MSNBC’s Morning Joe, campaign strategist Rick Davis suggested Palin might never sit down for an interview if, he said, it’s “in our best interest” to keep her away from the media. [more...]

posted by ericb at 11:17 AM on September 5, 2008 [3 favorites]

Sigh...I remember when the this thread was only 1960 comments and walked uphill both ways to school.
posted by josher71 at 11:19 AM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

Anchorage Daily News: Palin Is "Stonewalling" Investigation: "It's Time For The Subpoenas"... "Palin's Lawyer Tries To Play Secret Service Card"
posted by ericb at 11:19 AM on September 5, 2008

For example, a NC politician I know (who shall remain nameless-not that most of you would be familiar with him) is well known for having his opponents literally destroyed by lies and innuendo-case in point, one poor soul wound up falsely accused of having been a child molester-lost his marriage, wrecked his life, accusations NOT TRUE

Straight out of the Rove, Bush et al. Republican dirty tricks playbook.
posted by Rumple at 11:22 AM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

FFF, the Dominionists detest the thought of a woman in power. So that would really, really surprise me.

Sure. Theoretically, they also detest adultery, but they're still supporting McCain.
posted by EarBucket at 11:23 AM on September 5, 2008

"After upsetting the three-term incumbent Wasilla mayor in 1996, Palin quickly eliminated the position of one city department director and asked five others for a letter of resignation, a resume and a letter explaining why they should be retained."

Uh, what. Is this normal in the US?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 11:29 AM on September 5, 2008

If you repeat a lie enough times, it becomes true.

This has been the biggest lesson of this election for me so far. I used to think I was cynical, but at the same time I thought there was an actual difference between a lie and the truth. But I'm starting to see that it isn't so in a very real way that I didn't understand before.
posted by Bookhouse at 11:35 AM on September 5, 2008

No, it is not normal, goodnewsfortheinsane. It is quite shocking. Government jobs are generally considered pretty stable.
posted by QIbHom at 11:35 AM on September 5, 2008

Reminder for other home-state MeFites: Oregon has a tax CREDIT of $50 for political contributions ($100 for joint returns; cash only). So it doesn't matter how poor you are: you can get every penny back in 4 months. Any other states?
posted by msalt at 11:40 AM on September 5, 2008

Thanks to Palin and the GOP hatefest (the "Drill! Drill! Drill!" chant alone is like something out of "B-Movie Screenwriting .101's Handbook of Stock Evil Soulless Empire Dialog"), this Green Party member has signed up to volunteer for Obama's campaign. Thanks to billyfleetwood's brilliant post I have also, in solidarity with previous posters, donated a very large (for me) chunk of money to a major political party's general election campaign for the first time ever.
posted by stagewhisper at 11:44 AM on September 5, 2008 [6 favorites]

Now, seriously konolia. Do remember that John "But He Spent Five Years in a Box and thus gets a Pass on Anything he Does" McCain had an affair with Cindy which caused him to divorce his hospitalized wife and his two adopted and one biological children. Not a very cool move, in anyone's book I think. Talk about double standards....
posted by kaibutsu at 11:44 AM on September 5, 2008

I kissed Sarah Palin and I liked it
posted by jtron at 11:48 AM on September 5, 2008

This is incredible.

McCain Campaign Plans To Keep Palin Away From The Press

"Yesterday, McCain adviser Nicole Wallace dismissed the fact that Gov. Sarah Palin has yet to take any questions from the press. 'So what?' she scoffed. Today on MSNBC’s Morning Joe, campaign strategist Rick Davis suggested Palin might never sit down for an interview if, he said, it’s “in our best interest” to keep her away from the media.

Flat out incredible. Konolia, at least you show up. You answer questions. You talk about what you're feeling and thinking, and defend your rationale against those who feel differently. Palin and company are flat out running from the American people. These people don't deserve your vote, do they? They certainly don't have a fraction of the backbone you have. You've seen the myriad of evidence in this thread of documented lying about things large and small, substantive and mundane, new and old. Konolia, these folks do not deserve your vote.

You've shown yourself to be a stand-up person who stays in things even when it gets hot and you're replying to 5, 6, 7 people at a time. Always revealing how you feel, what has been going on, and how you make decisions. Palin is the opposite of that. She is running from what you surely must see is honest questioning of her record by America, trying to literally stall the clock and just hope time runs out before anybody can catch her in lies. I would submit that you dishonor yourself in voting for Palin & company.
posted by cashman at 11:50 AM on September 5, 2008 [21 favorites]

My contribution to the 4000 strong proposal:

Count me in as another first time donor. Spent plenty of time in '04 blockwalking and phonebanking for Dean. But as a broke college student I never put money where my mouth was.

Until Palin, I was content to just sit this election out and let the rest of you duke it out.
posted by politikitty at 11:51 AM on September 5, 2008 [5 favorites]

This comment from goodnewsfortheinsane is comment #3648 on this post, passing the Sans Quoi longboat thread in MeTa for most comments ever for any post, any MeFi site.

It is now the longest thread in the history of MeFi.

The record was reached in 8 days, 4 hours, and 37 minutes.

Congratulations to one and all for making history, and to Gov. Mrs. Palin for making it all possible.
posted by dw at 11:51 AM on September 5, 2008 [6 favorites]

Correction:

The record was reached in 8 days, 3 hours, and 37 minutes.
posted by dw at 11:58 AM on September 5, 2008

Y'know, being on the youngish side (33), I've successfully blocked a lot of the 1992 election out of my brain, but today I was inspired to look up Admiral Stockdale, and found this quote on his Wikipedia page:

"A liberally educated person meets new ideas with curiosity and fascination. An illiberally educated person meets new ideas with fear."

Hey! remember when we had non-Democrats running in a national election who actually believed things like this?
posted by bitter-girl.com at 11:58 AM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

As I was reloading and scrolling for the umpteenth time, my screen paused at this comment:

750 comments? Crazy
posted by delmoi at 8:20 PM on August 29 [+] [!]
posted by yeti at 12:01 PM on September 5, 2008

What? I stopped reading that thread after like 100 comments. What the hell was there worth talking about for 3,600 comments?
posted by lunit at 12:04 PM on September 5, 2008

Sure. Theoretically, they also detest adultery, but they're still supporting McCain.
That's because they say "adultery", "abortion", "homosexuality" and so on with a silent "other people's" in front of them: Other people's adultery, other people's abortion, other people's homosexuality: these are disgusting and unforgiveable. My brother's adultery, my daughter's abortion, my homosexuality: these things are merely regrettable. "Ours" and "other people's". There's a palpable difference there.
posted by Grangousier at 12:08 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

Wow. Stay classy, Patriot Post.

I get their emails on a regular basis. They're a part of the media that's just ecstatic over the Palin Pick.

I wonder what they make of the new "Palin Democrats"? Guess I'll find out in a few days.
posted by lysdexic at 12:10 PM on September 5, 2008

The average republican is a decent person who disagrees with me, and might not be as informed as I am. That's it.

You can be polite about it, but at some point people cross the line from uninformed to straight up ignorant moron. And if you are STILL interested in the Republican party after 8 years of Bush, then i'm sorry, you have got to be on the dumbaclot side of that line. (That, or you're an old rich White person.) Palin and McCain have managed to spout off so much bullshit in just a few days, if you're still eating this stuff up being uninformed is the least of your problems.

People are chanting "Drill! Drill! Drill!" at rallies? WTF? Did America nationalize their oil industry when I wasn't paying attention? Where do they think the oil Exxon digs up is going to go? Is it not going to be sold on international markets? Palin is like earmark queen of Alaska and she's the one who's going to clean up Washington? My ass. Republicans have mastered the art of dressing up insiders like outsiders.

Fuck. Why am I even commenting in this thread? I'm not even American and Palin is giving me a headache.
posted by chunking express at 12:12 PM on September 5, 2008 [3 favorites]

This comment from goodnewsfortheinsane is comment #3648 on this post, passing the Sans Quoi longboat thread in MeTa for most comments ever for any post, any MeFi site.

It is now the longest thread in the history of MeFi.

Wow, I feel honored and a little dirty.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 12:14 PM on September 5, 2008

Two polls were released in May of 2007 asking Americans "With respect to the abortion issue, would you consider yourself to be pro-choice or pro-life?" May 4th through 6th, a CNN poll found 45% said pro-choice and 50% said pro-life. Within the following week, a Gallup poll found 49% responding pro-choice and 45% pro-life.

Sure, no one will say that they are “anti-life”.
But what if you framed the question this way: “Do you want a judge to decide whether a close family member can have an abortion or not or do you want that close family member to be able to make that decision herself?”

Framing the question determines the result. The Republicans know that. It’s time to beat the Republic Party at its own game.
posted by sour cream at 12:15 PM on September 5, 2008 [3 favorites]

konolia: Also, at church people kept coming up to me all excited about the election now. That is definitely new. So if McCain's purpose was to get the Christians to get out and vote in November, I think he has accomplished it.

I'll grant your point - some people at a place you call a "church" may well have decided they like the man.

But I'd like it if you'd quit misusing words. The word you mean to use is "heretic." McCain picked a heretic, this will appeal to other heretics, and it has probably impressed you and other heretics with which you associate.

Those of us who are true Christians and believe in the true Church and the word of God tend to dislike the satanic indulgence promulgated by you "Evangelicals," not least because it's the single greatest challenge that has arisen against the Christ and his mission in these two thousand years. So if you don't mind, quit blathering about a religion you know nothing about.

Though in a few years I imagine all you heretics will probably be dead and buried anyhow.
posted by koeselitz at 12:17 PM on September 5, 2008 [9 favorites]

Sarah Palin affair

It looks like there might actually be two affairs. A British publication (This Week) is saying that the original Enquirer story is about one Brad Hanson, who owned a snowmobile (sic) dealership with Todd Palin. The blog An Alaskan Abroad says their mid-1990s affair was flirtatious but never consumnated; the Enquirer says it was.

fourcheesmac, above, is talking about Scott Richter, whose divorce is less than a year old. Any more details? The links posted are getting slammed, not surprisingly. The second link above points to a property record showing that the Palins own some land with Richter. The first is a court docket search for the Richter divorce. Key part (abridged):

3PA-07-01581CI In the Matter of: Richter, Scott Alan and Richter, Deborah Marie

-- 09/04/2008 Order Denying Motion Case Motion #3: Motion to Make Case File Confidential
-- 09/03/2008 Motion to Make Case File Confidential Attorney: Pro per (0100001) Scott Alan Richter (Petitioner); Case Motion #3
-- 09/03/2008 Motion for Expedited Consideration of: Motion to Make Case File Confidential Attorney: Pro per (0100001) Case Motion #2
-- 05/19/2008 Notice to Employer Re: Children's Medical Insurance Deborah Marie Richter (Co-Petitioner)
posted by msalt at 12:18 PM on September 5, 2008

lysdexic, that is so disturbing.

And yes, sour cream. When the question is put in the terms of rights, people come down on the side of wanting the choice for themselves.
posted by agregoli at 12:22 PM on September 5, 2008

IF it turned out to be true she had an affair, I would want her to step down. For the very same reason Edwards should have not run.....and especially since she accepted this after the Edwards scandal broke. That would be the height of stupidity. -- konolia

Are you saying she should step down because affairs are morally wrong, or because it would be bad politics? Edwards had an affair while he was running. It was a long time before the primaries, but still (of course, Edwards was practically running non-stop since '04, but I digress)

I'm pretty pissed at Edwards, after all he was the #2 choice for people who didn't like Hillary, for Sarah Palin though it sounds like this is something that happened a long time ago, so I don't see why it should be such a big deal. She has a huge amount of other problems and the affair is just more personal scandal with a person who has a complicated family life. The fact that she cans people who don't support her, she obviously creates a culture of fear, keeps enemies lists, and apparently sucked at mayorin' is a much bigger problem.

I mean if you really consider adultery to be disqualifying, how can you support McCain, who's now married to his former mistress, who he cheated with before dumping the woman who waited for him while he was a POW?

Having said that, however....I have pretty good inside knowledge of just how dirty politics can get. For example, a NC politician I know (who shall remain nameless-not that most of you would be familiar with him) is well known for having his opponents literally destroyed by lies and innuendo -- konolia

Doesn't the fact that Palin seems much more like the kind of person who tries to destroy other people (pretty much anyone who doesn't support her 100%) then the kind who gets destroyed seem problematic to you?
posted by delmoi at 12:23 PM on September 5, 2008 [3 favorites]

It is now the longest thread in the history of MeFi.

Standing on the bluffs squinting at the horizon, Sarah watches the longboat sink into the sea, bathed in the thousand colors of the sunset.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 12:36 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

ABC News has a good roundup of the Troopergate scandal. Two things seem clear: Palin abused the power of her office to pursue a personal vendetta against Wooten, and then lied about it.
posted by EarBucket at 12:38 PM on September 5, 2008

Those of us who are true Christians and believe in the true Church and the word of God tend to dislike the satanic indulgence promulgated by you "Evangelicals," not least because it's the single greatest challenge that has arisen against the Christ and his mission in these two thousand years. So if you don't mind, quit blathering about a religion you know nothing about.

I am loathe to call people "not true Christians" in the same way I am loathe to say someone isn't a true American, a true patriot or true Scotsman.

That said, one does have to wonder: where is the love? Where is the humility, the forgiveness, the desire for peace? From many evangelicals, I see a great arrogance regarding how others should live and what they should believe, confusing testifying and professing faith with a thirst for power, as well as the frankly heretical claim that they understand God's intentions (e.g., Hurricane Katrina as punishment for homosexuality). The abortion question is a perfect example of this. You never hear these people address the fact that young women die along with their unborn when abortion is illegal, because the thinking is, "Well, their death is God's judgement." Of course you can't say that shit in mixed company, because others will justifiably think you're an unfeeling fuckhead, but you can believe that's the attitude within their own circles. It's a twisted POV that uses cherry-picked Bible quotes (notice how much they point to Leviticus with regards to homosexuality, yet ignore that book's decrees regarding dietary law) to justify imposing their secular world view on everybody else.

The phrase "not seeing the forest for the trees" is very fitting with these people - hammering on non-issues based on their understanding of the Bible while missing the greater and most important message of Jesus Christ - love one another.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:46 PM on September 5, 2008 [8 favorites]

The Richter divorce thing could just be part of trying to maintain some privacy in the midst of expected media scrutiny. I wouldn't want people going through all my business just because my name was connected with a controversial figure.

I'm no so big on going after affairs anyway. I don't like it when it is done to Democrats, and I'm always disappointed when one of the targets gives in and apologizes to everybody in the world for his/her weakness. The only person who needs apologize to me for sleeping around is my husband. I'd enjoy seeing a politician say 'it's none of your business' and leave it at that.

I'm looking forward to seeing the debate unfold over the next couple months and hope they can all keep it on as much a legitimate level as possible. I don't think an insulting tone makes anybody look good on either side (it hasn't done a lot for me when I've gone there). Hopefully the press will quickly dispense with allowing Palin's people to get away with charges of sexism for legitimate criticism.

At times I've figured that at least if we got stuck with McCain it wouldn't be as terrible as what we've had and that the overall rancor might settle a bit; but then he put Karl Rove in a dress and is giving us the same old line. I try to come up with some benefit of the doubt, that it's what he has to do to get elected and then he'll drop it after (and I gave Hilary the same leeway); and I've tried to tell myself that as mean as I thought the RNC mood was, the convention is more an insider thing; but I can't help thinking that with the talent she has for engaging with an audience (if it extends beyond that particular kind of crowd) and the opportunity that Palin had with a large audience, she could have done a lot for the general tone of the election (and thus for her own side) had she aimed at trying to be forward-looking and inspiring about her and McCain's ideas and not been so condescending and insulting to the large chunk of the country that values what Obama is talking about. That might be naive in that perhaps we would be faulting that approach as well, but I think one of the things people appreciate about Obama is that he is able to maintain a tone that shows a level of class and decorum, and matching that would seem to be the best showcase for solid ideas and noble ideals. Perhaps it is the lack of such that requires this kind of tactic, but I tend to think it's better for all of us if both sides can state their cases and challenge each other on a playing field that doesn't resemble--forgive me--a hockey match.
posted by troybob at 12:48 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

GOP consultant "Open Mike" Murphy, The Swooning Over Sarah...

I think she'll ultimately be a polarizer. After last night's smash, Republicans are in deep love. Nothing thrills ‘em like a good "us vs. them" speech. But I'd guess that most Democrats had the opposite reaction. In a year where the Democrat generic numbers are 10+ points better than the Republican, I don't like the math of a strategy that just polarized the election along party base lines. Among the vital sliver of voters in the middle, I think Palin's rock solid social conservatism will be a turn off. And while voters may value vision over experience, Palin's inexperience is a weakness, denying McCain an argument that has been helping him against Obama.

posted by kirkaracha at 1:02 PM on September 5, 2008 [3 favorites]

The Richter divorce thing could just be part of trying to maintain some privacy in the midst of expected media scrutiny.

Why would Scott Richter expect media scrutiny if he had no involvement with Palin? I don't think the press is scrutinizing every divorce in the state.

Fair or not, I think a proven affair would devastate Palin's standing. The old double-standard on sexual conduct is real. She will be judged more harshly than McCain, especially after flogging the "devoted Christian mother of five" thing for all it's worth. Republicans are the ones trying to make this election all about character, not issues. Plus, for an unknown, it dovetails nicely with a pattern of partial truths and frankly, flat-out lies into a tidy media narrative of dishonesty.

Finally, as far as we know, Obama and Joe Biden are the last two completely faithful married politicians on earth. I love the slogan "Two houses, two wives" (though yes, I know Biden remarried after being widowed.)
posted by msalt at 1:04 PM on September 5, 2008

Favorited for the clever pun.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:05 PM on September 5, 2008

This is crazy. Not everyone has access to the same information you do.

What magical information do I have access to? The US economy is worse now than it was 8 years ago. American is involved in two more wars than it was 8 years ago. There was the Katrina debacle. There are all human rights abuses. Etc. This isn't stuff that needs nuanced reporting to be understood.

You can talk about people being led astray, but at some point a person needs to take responsibility for their own actions.

When I say people who still eat up all the Republican rhetoric are probably dumbaclots, I'm not trying to be mean. I'm very sincere.
posted by chunking express at 1:07 PM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

A Choice For Me, But Not For Thee? Or Any Other Woman In America? (from The Daily Show)
posted by ericb at 1:12 PM on September 5, 2008

I guess I need to clarify....IF Palin has skeletons in her closet she should know that a campaign will guarantee that they WILL be public knowledge. That is the lesson of the Edwards scandal.

If, after watching THAT play out, she accepted the nomination, she did exactly what Edwards did-which is put a whole campaign at risk in a very big way.

As to McCain and the adultery? His exwife has a McCain for President sticker on her car... I do think this is private business, particularly since this is not a current event but something that occurred thirty years ago. He said himself his greatest failing was the failure of this first marriage. And we all already knew about it to start with.

Finally, I only have two choices regarding my vote. I'm looking at the platforms....I like Obama as a person but I think he is too idealistic and I also after some thought am not convinced his economic policies will be wise. I agree with "drill baby drill" insofar as the Republican position is to pursue alternative fuels while using our own resources and getting away from such heavy dependence on foreign oil. Finally, the most important issue of all-I cannot vote for a man who thinks that in order not to "punish his daughters for a mistake" he would think it the right thing for them to abort HIS GRANDCHILD.

His GRANDCHILD.
posted by konolia at 1:15 PM on September 5, 2008

Finally, the most important issue of all-I cannot vote for a man who thinks that in order not to "punish his daughters for a mistake" he would think it the right thing for them to abort HIS GRANDCHILD.

His GRANDCHILD.

And in a country where abortion would be illegal, if she sought an abortion, both "HIS GRANDCHILD" and HIS DAUGHTER would die. Sanctity of human life, my narrow behind.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:18 PM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

lunit : What? I stopped reading that thread after like 100 comments. What the hell was there worth talking about for 3,600 comments?

You totally missed that bit in the middle where we spent four or five hundred comments talking about unicorns. That was awesome.
posted by quin at 1:19 PM on September 5, 2008 [4 favorites]

see, it's not a child. Glad I could clear that up for you.
posted by found missing at 1:19 PM on September 5, 2008

Why would Scott Richter expect media scrutiny if he had no involvement with Palin?

It is possible he had some involvement with Palin that was not sexual, and that his divorce proceedings might be embarrassing to him in ways in which Palin was not involved.

And yeah, perhaps Palin will be revealed to have an affair and it will ruin the candidacy. I'd just rather see her rejected based on the moral bankruptcy of her ideas. Getting put out for an affair just makes the media more hungry for it down the line, and I'm not particularly interested in seeing someone otherwise noble and doing great things for people be destroyed over it.

I can't remember when and where I heard it in the past couple weeks, but someone mentioned what a shame it was that the publicity over John Edwards' affair did not simply hurt his career, but it also likely took away one of the strongest and most genuine advocates for causes of the poor. That's a real loss.
posted by troybob at 1:20 PM on September 5, 2008 [6 favorites]

I agree with "drill baby drill" insofar as the Republican position is to pursue alternative fuels while using our own resources and getting away from such heavy dependence on foreign oil.

Konila, as I said above, America doesn't have a nationalized oil industry. Whatever company comes in and drills that oil isn't going to sell it in Kansas, they are going to sell it all over the world, and prices that the world market dictates. Prices aren't going to come down because they've discovered oil in Alaska. (Never mind the environmental toll.) And it's not like they are going to start drilling next week, next month, etc. It'd probably be several years before they start getting stuff they could sell.
posted by chunking express at 1:25 PM on September 5, 2008 [4 favorites]

CNN President Jon Klein:

It’s a time-honored marketing ploy and, every time they bash the media, it means they’re not talking about a vision or a plan,” CNN president Jon Klein said. “But the best antidote to cynical marketing is solid reporting.”

CNN had a dustup with the McCain campaign earlier this week after Campbell Brown’s persistent questioning of McCain spokesman Tucker Bounds on Palin’s foreign-policy experience as governor of Alaska prompted the campaign to cancel McCain’s scheduled appearance on Larry King Live. (Bounds and CNN have since patched thing up.)

“America has been presented with a total unknown who might be a heartbeat away from the presidency,” Klein said of Palin, “and Americans have every right to expect as much information as possible about this person so that they can make an informed choice. Certainly our critics are in favor of Americans making an informed choice, aren’t they?”

posted by ericb at 1:27 PM on September 5, 2008

And yeah, perhaps Palin will be revealed to have an affair and it will ruin the candidacy. I'd just rather see her rejected based on the moral bankruptcy of her ideas.

A thousand times, yes. If history has taught us anything, it's that plenty of perfectly fine leaders had questionable sex lives. I wouldn't trust this person with a yard sale, let alone the vice presidency, and seeing her face on Yahoo's front page makes me click the nearest available link just to avoid her sneer, and yes, she does wail on that "fine upstanding hockey mom" meme, but still - if she had an affair, I simply do not care. There are plenty of other relevant reasons to fight her candidacy, her possible indiscretions is not one of them, to me.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:28 PM on September 5, 2008 [5 favorites]

Chris Matthews takes on Pat Buchanan. Watch it!
posted by ericb at 1:29 PM on September 5, 2008

The Exiled on Palin in Alaska.
posted by COBRA! at 1:31 PM on September 5, 2008

His GRANDCHILD.

I think your arguments tend to go over a bit better when you don't go in for the over-dramatic Sally Field/Lifetime-movie/for-the-children lunge at emotional manipulation.
posted by troybob at 1:31 PM on September 5, 2008 [5 favorites]

Klein on the whole Drill Now thing.
posted by chunking express at 1:32 PM on September 5, 2008

Palin is gonna win this shit for McCain, you watch.

* retreats to slough of despond *
posted by everichon at 1:33 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think so too. Palin has the same everyman (or woman in this case) appeal George Bush and Regan had. Why that's appealing, I don't quite understand mind you.
posted by chunking express at 1:36 PM on September 5, 2008

Finally, the most important issue of all-I cannot vote for a man who thinks that in order not to "punish his daughters for a mistake" he would think it the right thing for them to abort HIS GRANDCHILD.

His GRANDCHILD.

Konolia, where on earth are you getting this? The quote you seem to be referencing doesn't even mention abortion; it's about contraception education, and the context of the remark has already been pointed out to you at least once. Despite your EMPHATIC use of CAPS, you have absolutely NO BASIS for this statement.

NO BASIS.
posted by purplemonkie at 1:38 PM on September 5, 2008 [7 favorites]

If I restarted the whole "let's quiz konolia" thing, I apologize. please, let's not revisit the whole abortion thing if possible. I just saw the stark comparison between Konolia's well-noticed posting upstream here, and Palin's running away yelling "lalalalalaICan'tHearYou" with her fingers in her ears while America and the media try to ask her simple questions.
posted by cashman at 1:39 PM on September 5, 2008

Four thousand is a contest, but unwinnable.
posted by cgc373 at 7:16 AM on April 10

From the original longboat thread. Can we do it? YES WE CAN!
posted by Sailormom at 1:39 PM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

....and Palin's running away yelling "lalalalalaICan'tHearYou" with her fingers in her ears while America and the media try to ask her simple questions.

At least it's consistent with what the VP slot has become. When has Cheney ever answered a question that did not come from a foxnews pundit?
posted by troybob at 1:45 PM on September 5, 2008

Palin is gonna win this shit for McCain, you watch.

I respectfully disagree. The comparisons to Reagan or Bush falls flat for a few reasons.

Palin is working that same everyman quality Bush and Reagan did, true, but they were at least visible, dropping soundbites. Team McCain has pretty much told the world that they're locking her in the cupboard from now until November. Palin will either stay in the shadows, letting McCain answer for her when her record is questioned, or she'll be forced to respond to her record, which frankly does not hold up to scrutiny. Reagan and Bush, as governors, had relatively long governorships behind them when they ran, at least longer than Palin's, and less tinged with scandal and corruption to boot. Both Reagan and Bush were considered moderates and tried to portray themselves as such. Palin is doing no such thing - she is portraying herself as a rock-ribbed social conservative. This might get the evangelicals out to the polls, but moderate undecideds are not impressed. The best Palin wil do is narrow the gap.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:45 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin is doing no such thing - she is portraying herself as a rock-ribbed social conservative.

There seemed to be a lot of, "ah shucks, I'm just a small town girl" in her big speech. I certainly hope she is alienating more middle of the road voters than she is pulling in, but i'm not so sure.
posted by chunking express at 1:47 PM on September 5, 2008

Can't one of you dig up another Republican to spell me?

Nope, the rest of the MetaFilter Contrarian Society resigned when they realized they'd have to defend Palin. You're all alone now. Maybe you should go and talk to all your non-Republican friends who were so enthused by her when she was first announced. If they exist (the whole trope was part of the Rush/Rove Daily TalkingPoint Email for August 30th). Or if they, after getting more information about this loathsome lady, haven't come to their senses.

First time, it was my son Josh. I had a threatened miscarriage and stayed in bed for two weeks early on in the pregnancy. He just graduated and is now a 2nd Lieutenant in the Air Force.

Which makes you far more caring for your potential children than Sarah, who took two long plane rides after her water broke to make a political speech. Which also shows that she was campaigning for this kind of political opportunity long before McCain ever considered her.

I know women (plural) who "killed their babies" (had abortions) who also did exactly the same thing you did for Josh when they wanted to have a baby. They are most obviously better mothers than Sarah Palin.

If you can keep up the cynical mislabeling of being "Pro-Life" (and I don't know ANY (zero) so-called "Pro-Lifers" who hold post-born life in nearly as much reverence as pre-born - they do become less perfect after they leave the womb and start crying), then I can proudly declare myself Pro-Death. Death. Sometimes it is obviously the best thing to do.
posted by wendell at 1:48 PM on September 5, 2008

Can we do it? YES WE CAN!

I think the question all Mefites, and indeed all Americans, are asking themselves right now is: can I kick it?
posted by penduluum at 1:48 PM on September 5, 2008

Okay, now that you brought it up again, konolia, let's just get clear on the "punishment" thing. It's very obvious that he was talking about contraception, not abortion:

"When it comes specifically to HIV/AIDS, the most important prevention is education, which should include -- which should include abstinence education and teaching the children -- teaching children, you know, that sex is not something casual. But it should also include -- it should also include other, you know, information about contraception because, look, I've got two daughters. 9 years old and 6 years old. I am going to teach them first of all about values and morals. But if they make a mistake, I don't want them punished with a baby. I don't want them punished with an STD at the age of 16. You know, so it doesn't make sense to not give them information. You still want to teach them the morals and the values to make good decisions."

In other words, abstinence-only education says, "We think you shouldn't have sex, and because of that, we're not going to teach you about contraception because you deserve to be punished with consequences like STDs and pregnancy if you're bad enough to have sex. Sex has negative consequences, and we won't teach you how to avoid them." Obama is saying: "We should have comprehensive sex education. We should teach children-- and I'll teach my daughters-- that they shouldn't have sex as teenagers. But people make mistakes. Teen sex happens. And teenagers making poor decisions at such a young age shouldn't be burdened with consequences with lifelong implications when it's so easily avoidable. So I think we should make sure kids are educated about sex and contraception so as to minimize the negative consequences, rather than us deciding that they deserve to be punished with as many negative consequences of sex and thus withholding that information from them."

Yes, unfortunately, he phrased it badly. But I think if you read it in good faith you see what he's really saying.
posted by EmilyClimbs at 1:48 PM on September 5, 2008 [3 favorites]

Konolia, where on earth are you getting this? The quote you seem to be referencing doesn't even mention abortion; it's about contraception education, and the context of the remark has already been pointed out to you at least once. Despite your EMPHATIC use of CAPS, you have absolutely NO BASIS for this statement.

Oops, you are right-that was a reference to contraception ed...

It'd probably be several years before they start getting stuff they could sell.

So, we really need to get started NOW.
posted by konolia at 1:49 PM on September 5, 2008

Konolia: what the hell is wrong with you. He never said that he would want his daughters to abort his grandchild.

What he said, and obviously you don't have to agree with this, is that his daughters should be able to have sex without worrying about getting pregnant or getting an STD. Here, the pregnancy not the child is the punishment for sex. Obama never said that the appropriate way to avoid punishment would simply be to abort the child, it's to have safe sex in the first place.

Now, I would imagine he probably doesn't want his daughters to have sex at all, but he wants them to use protection if they do.

And look, the claims your making about Obama are based on a single statement, and you're twisting it all around to make him look as bad as possible. Even if you refuse to look at what the republicans are saying honestly, you should at least look at what Obama was actually saying before forming opinions based on lies.
posted by delmoi at 1:51 PM on September 5, 2008 [4 favorites]

Chris Matthews takes on Pat Buchanan.

Ye gods, that was ugly. I couldn't finish watching it. But it's just obscene that the Republicans are stating that a refusal to talk to the press at all could be considered a valid position in this democracy. It's just disgusting.

Ugh, I'm getting dem old election blues again. I knew I quit the wrong election cycle to quit smoking.
posted by Bookhouse at 1:51 PM on September 5, 2008

The terms pro-choice and pro-life, do they encapsulate that reality in our 21st Century setting and can we find common ground?

Obama: I absolutely think we can find common ground. And it requires a couple of things. It requires us to acknowledge that..
There is a moral dimension to abortion, which I think that all too often those of us who are pro-choice have not talked about or tried to tamp down. I think that's a mistake because I think all of us understand that it is a wrenching choice for anybody to think about.

People of good will can exist on both sides. That nobody wishes to be placed in a circumstance where they are even confronted with the choice of abortion. How we determine what's right at that moment, I think, people of good will can differ.
And if we can acknowledge that much, then we can certainly agree on the fact that we should be doing everything we can to avoid unwanted pregnancies that might even lead somebody to consider having an abortion.

posted by designbot at 1:52 PM on September 5, 2008 [3 favorites]

Wendell, two Democrats at my husband's workplace came up to him yesterday and told him that since McCain picked Palin, they are now voting for McCain.
posted by konolia at 1:53 PM on September 5, 2008

The figures include 40% with a Very Favorable opinion of Palin and 18% with a Very Unfavorable view (full demographic crosstabs are available for Premium Members). Before her acceptance speech, Palin was viewed favorably by 52%. A week ago, 67% had never heard of her.

This morning, right-wing commenters at Rasmussen were fretting over the delay of releasing new poll results, including what was quoted upthread. Their chatter got my attention because it was as if something "unusual" were behind the delay.
I find these results pretty alarming, myself! It makes me want to learn more about how polls are done. Phone calling: to households all over the country at random I would presume. But how many calls does that take to get a fair distributed demographic? How was the pollster's question worded, such that they conclude her “popularity” went up vs. just her notoriety?
I have a lot to read up on with this, but for starters:

Wikipedia entry on Rasmussen –
its founder is of evangelical Christian background…Not to lump all Christians as evil but – with questions circulating about ABC reporter Jake Tapper pulling the story he’d published about Palin’s ties to AIP -- am I only imagining that GOP could be exerting some serious pressure on the media?

According to one study, Rasmussen is among the more accurate predictors of results in election races. Which only adds to my concern -- hopefully the polls’ indications here are short-lived.
posted by skyper at 1:54 PM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

two Democrats at my husband's workplace came up to him yesterday and told him that since McCain picked Palin, they are now voting for McCain.

Those aren't Democrats. Fyi.
posted by dersins at 2:00 PM on September 5, 2008 [12 favorites]

konolia: I agree with "drill baby drill" insofar as the Republican position is to pursue alternative fuels while using our own resources and getting away from such heavy dependence on foreign oil. Finally, the most important issue of all-I cannot vote for a man who thinks that in order not to "punish his daughters for a mistake" he would think it the right thing for them to abort HIS GRANDCHILD.

I know that I differ vastly from both parties when I say this, but:

Dependence on foreign oil is better than dependence on American oil companies. Saudis care more about the well-being of American citizens than American oil companies ever will.

And it's always cute to me when so-called "moralists" pretend that everyone knows that their personal beliefs (life begins at conception, Christians should be fed to the lions, a bunch of meth-addicted self-hating 'ministers' are better leaders than doctors of the church, etc.) are obvious to everyone else, who is just pretending.

If people believed that abortion is murder, do you really think they'd argue passionately for it? It must be very difficult for you to get your head around that - how is it they can be so articulate and eloquent in defense of something that they know is murder? If you could adduce a single line of scripture or a single scientific fact to indicate that your view had some authority to it, I suppose you could convince them. But you can't.

It's interesting to me that so-called "christians" nowadays believe so very many things based either on juvenile or sloppy misinterpretations of scripture or on the recommendation of the deeply troubled people they choose to lead them.
posted by koeselitz at 2:01 PM on September 5, 2008 [3 favorites]

So, yeah. Polling from Rasmussen released today indicates that, at the moment, Palin has a (slightly) higher favorability rating than Biden, McCain, and Obama:

[...]Palin is viewed favorably by 58% of American voters. The latest Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 37% hold an unfavorable view of the self-described hockey mom. The figures include 40% with a Very Favorable opinion of Palin and 18% with a Very Unfavorable view.[...] As of Friday morning, Obama and McCain are each viewed favorably by 57% of voters. Biden is viewed favorably by 48%.

There is a strong partisan gap when it comes to perceptions of Palin. Eighty-nine percent (89%) of Republicans give her favorable reviews along with 33% of Democrats and 59% of voters not affiliated with either major party.

Huh. Two Americas; etc.
posted by Prospero at 2:02 PM on September 5, 2008

Wendell, two Democrats at my husband's workplace came up to him yesterday and told him that since McCain picked Palin, they are now voting for McCain.

A man approached me at the bus stop today and gave me a 9/11 Truther pamphlet. Clearly, America believes the government was behind 9/11.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:02 PM on September 5, 2008 [6 favorites]

I knew I quit the wrong election cycle to quit smoking.

Oh no, it's affecting Bookhouse's typing!

People of good will can exist

I initially, bizarrely, parsed that "will can" cluster as being some unfamiliar double modal (like "might should" or "may did"), and "People of good" as a weird noun phrase to boot.

That is all.
posted by cortex at 2:04 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

So, we really need to get started NOW.

We need to do no such thing. Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result, is the definition of insanity.

There might be a lot of light sweet crude oil in Alaska, but just because it's there, and just because we can, doesn't mean we MUST DRILL THERE NOW to reap some imaginary benefit in X years.

Independence from foreign oil is a good thing. Independence from oil and coal period is even better.

The money spent by corporations (which will be given to them by the government, make no mistake) could be better spent on wind and geothermal and solar energy. Renewable stuff.

That's true independence.
posted by lysdexic at 2:06 PM on September 5, 2008

konolia, you miss the other point I made. America isn't going to nationalize their oil industry. I don't think Exxon, etc, are under any obligation to sell oil for less in Ohio. It will enter the world market, and be sold at whatever price oil sells at in 5 or 10 years time. Drill Now! is a stupid idea. It's short sighted. You don't get over a dependence on oil with more oil.
posted by chunking express at 2:07 PM on September 5, 2008 [4 favorites]

Sarah Palin is not quite a female Ronald Reagan or George W. Bush. Much more a Spiro Agnew or Dan Quayle. Of course, they won their first big election (Quayle lost his second).

It doesn't say she'll be as automatically successful. This is not 1968 or 1988, despite the numerical similarities. The ongoing collapse of the Republican Party as a political entity (while it remains stronger than any party the US has ever had as a Criminal Organization). The need for McCain to keep a reputation as a non-cynical politician - which Nixon and Bush Sr. did not have. The charisma on the other side (Obama beats Humphrey and Dukakis easily) as well as the most competent campaign organization the Democrats have had since LBJ (they already defeated the Clinton machine that won in '92).

If the Reublican ticket wins, it will be through a campaign of fear, hatred, racism (a subset of hatred), greed and dishonesty greater than America has ever seen before. It will doom America to an accelerated fall into Fascism (that is already going to be terribly difficult to reverse). But if enough voters buy into it for the GOP Election Fraud machine to make into a victory, it just shows that America really doesn't deserve any better. Sarah Palin is pretty well qualified for such a campaign, more than John McCain.
posted by wendell at 2:09 PM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

How was the pollster's question worded, such that they conclude her “popularity” went up vs. just her notoriety?

I think it's also important to remember that it is possible to have a "favorable" opinion of someone and still not think that they should be VP.

I highly recommend RealClearPolitics - apart from being a great source for commentary, it compiles the data of numerous different polls across the country and calculates a daily average. Right now, the gap between McCain and Obama is narrowing. It will be interesting to see what happens from here on out, especially after Team McCain announcing that Palin - their alleged "energizer" - won't be in the spotlight from here on out.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 2:11 PM on September 5, 2008

So, we really need to get started NOW.

Konolia, there are two points about drilling and why it's not important for us to do it

1) It won't make much difference for a long time, so there's no emergency, and if we wait longer, the value of that oil will increase, which is good if you're the one sitting on it

2) it won't make much difference in prices. Even if all the new wells came online in the next six months, it would only have a tiny effect on gas prices. Like a few cents a gallon. The untapped reserves have something like a six month supply.

So, you might ask, even if it's a small thing, why not drill?

Well, the main reason not to drill is to avoid environmental degredation. Offshore drilling causes oil spills, and while republicans are fond of claiming that Katrina caused no oil spills, they're lying when they say that. Katrina caused huge oil spills. Furthermore, having oil wells out in the sea is ugly, and would hurt tourism. Most people who live by the coast don't want wells put up, and shouldn't we keep their interest in mind? I mean doesn't beauty have some value on it's own?

How would you feel if someone wanted to build a turkey shit thermal-depolymerization reactor in your town? It could help reduce the cost of gasoline, bit it would also make your town stink and fill it with pollution. Should that sacrifice be forced down your throat so that people across the country can save 4¢ when they fill up their pickup trucks?
posted by delmoi at 2:14 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

chunking express: When I say people who still eat up all the Republican rhetoric are probably dumbaclots, I'm not trying to be mean.

I'd suggest that you be more polite, then. To repeat what I said to five fresh fish: as outsiders, we should avoid using inflammatory rhetoric when commenting on US politics.

Here's a good description of how individual voters in Wisconsin were thinking during the close of the 2004 campaign. Joseph Lelyveld:

Virginia Andersen, an elderly widow, has come to roughly similar conclusions after talking to a gentleman friend. "I've always been a Republican but this time, I don't know," she said. "I think that Bush—so handsome as he is, so clean-appearing as he is, and as charming as he is—I think he's for the rich. There are so many angles but the whole story may just be oil." That leads to a further unthinkable conclusion, about Iraq, one that she says will certainly annoy her Republican brother from Nashville. "But it's so obvious," Mrs. Anderson said. "They don't want us there, do they?"

Such interior monologues can be thought of as the petri dishes in which campaign attacks germinate or die.

everichon: Palin is gonna win this shit for McCain, you watch.

I'm not so pessimistic. See this FiveThirtyEight analysis: Palin's energized both the Republican base and the Democrat base. (Also obvious from this thread!) The problem for the Republicans is that the Democrat base is larger.

www.electoral-vote.com looks at the electoral map: Obama is likely to hold all the states Kerry won in 2004, plus Iowa and New Mexico. That means he only has to win one of the following six states: Florida, Virginia, Ohio, Missouri, Colorado, Nevada. The Republicans have to hold all of them. After eight years of Republican rule, more than 80% of Americans believe that the country is on the wrong track. Obama's built up an amazing organization; his campaign should be able to spend more money on advertising and have a tremendous number of volunteers on the ground.

This is why McCain made such a risky pick, after all--he knew he was on the losing side. Palin's enthused the base, but the scandals that keep coming out will continue to highlight the recklessness of his decision.
posted by russilwvong at 2:19 PM on September 5, 2008 [4 favorites]

I knew I quit the wrong election cycle to quit smoking.

Oh no, it's affecting Bookhouse's typing!

It's two llate for me, save yrselves.
posted by Bookhouse at 2:26 PM on September 5, 2008

First time donor to a US election campaign here, too (although not surprising as I'm not a US citizen and have never lived there). It was hard to press the paypal button for the laughing, though - every word out of the Republican campaign so far has been so much bullshit, that this is even a possibility is sad. That it might even be close? AMERICA WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONG WITH YOU. You deserve better than these hypocritical, lying sacks of shit after 8 years of hypocritical, lying sacks of shit.
posted by goo at 2:28 PM on September 5, 2008 [4 favorites]

Wendell, two Democrats at my husband's workplace came up to him yesterday and told him that since McCain picked Palin, they are now voting for McCain.

Are these the same Democrats who told him Obama's going to stop campaigning in a state that's practically tied?
posted by EarBucket at 2:35 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

All Obama and Biden have to do is ignore the screaming kids in the backseat and keep their eyes on the road ahead. They'll make it. But if they turn around too often to focus on the screaming kids, they'll crash.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 2:38 PM on September 5, 2008 [4 favorites]

First time donor to a US election campaign here, too (although not surprising as I'm not a US citizen and have never lived there)

Then please don't donate to our candidates. kthxbye.
posted by dersins at 2:39 PM on September 5, 2008 [4 favorites]

delmoi: ... it won't make much difference in prices. Even if all the new wells came online in the next six months, it would only have a tiny effect on gas prices. Like a few cents a gallon. The untapped reserves have something like a six month supply.

To expand on this point:

Not before 2015 could the oil extracted from the [Arctic National Wildlife Refuge] affect energy supplies, and even then it would represent an inconsequential fraction of our gluttonous US consumption. (A Department of Energy report of September 2005 predicted that ANWR oil production, peaking in 2025, would slash the gas price at the pump by no more than one penny per gallon.) As most of our legislators know well, to flog this questionable source as a solution to our wasteful habits is not only dishonest but a long-term disservice to the nation.

And:

Ted Stevens, the Republican senator from Alaska who with Murkowski has battled for decades to allow drilling in the 1002, still dismisses the Wildlife Refuge as "a wasteland." But unfortunately for his argument, his Republican colleague Lincoln Chafee of Rhode Island has traveled there and seen it for himself.

"I will have to say, Senator Stevens," Chafee protested a few years ago during a debate, "[that] I have been to forty-nine of the fifty states [and] this is the most beautiful place I have ever been."

Also see this May 2008 report from the Energy Information Administration. In 2030, ANWR production would reduce oil imports from 54% to 51% of oil consumption.
posted by russilwvong at 2:40 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

Again, much like abortion, the entire issue of drilling is irrelevant.

It's not like you put crude oil into your car. There's this little thing between the oilfields and the gas pumps called a "refinery". And the US has been closing them steadily over the last two decades and not building any new ones. There are no laws against building new refineries except the usual ones, environmental impact and all that sort of stuff. So why does no one build them? because they're expensive and they can just keep jacking up the price of gas to improve profit instead of selling more gas.

The issue is only partly one of supply of inputs. The US lacks refining infrastructure and it doesn't sound like anyone is doing anything about that. NIMBY and all.

So drill to your heart's content. It ain't going to make any difference.
posted by GuyZero at 2:47 PM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

l-I cannot vote for a man who thinks that in order not to "punish his daughters for a mistake" he would think it the right thing for them to abort HIS GRANDCHILD.

Funny that way up above, you called some issues of theology "above your pay grade", yet you then declared with some certainty that you are be going to heaven, and you know definitively that a fetus is a human life with a soul, and that you can sit in judgment of people as cowards when they believe that abortion is wrong, yet support choice.

I suggest you recuse yourself from participating in this election until you can straighten out your theology and personal morality; it's a mess. If I were judgmental, I'd call your arrogance and pridefulness sinful, and that you're doing Satan's bidding. But it's not for me to say. Suffice it to say that your confused salad bar / evangelical / megachurch christian doctrine compel you to actions and pronouncements that are inconsistent with the faith you claim to devoutly hold, are and badly misinformed as it concerns energy and defense policy and because you cast that vote, has an impact on people that work tirelessly to inform themselves about these issues and make good and morally defensible choices.
posted by psmealey at 2:51 PM on September 5, 2008 [9 favorites]

If only there were a way to power our vehicles with fuel made from aborted fetuses. I think that is a technology we could all get behind.
posted by found missing at 2:54 PM on September 5, 2008 [8 favorites]

Biden, Palin Less Popular than Cheney
posted by nasreddin at 3:03 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

Wendell, two Democrats at my husband's workplace came up to him yesterday and told him that since McCain picked Palin, they are now voting for McCain.

Now, konolia, it's clear that you're just trying to make our heads explode. Not that I can really blame you, considering what you've had to put up with in this thread. Still, it's a pretty radical tactic. I mean, I think I felt my skull crack in a couple of places when I read that.
posted by Crabby Appleton at 3:04 PM on September 5, 2008

Inspired by konolia, I just went up to a republinut coworker and said, with a straight face, that I'm now voting for McCain b/c he picked Palin.
posted by found missing at 3:08 PM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

"Two houses, two wives"

I think it's "two houses, two spouses." On the other hand, McCain and Palin add up to (at least) 10 houses and three spouses, not counting extramarital dalliances and previously owned property.

Yeah, it's something isn't it, how the right wingers smear the character of people like Barack Obama when by their own standards of evidence he is ten times the loving father and family man that McCain is. Shows you once again that they don't really mean what they say. They mean "we can't elect this uppity nigger."

Or as Palin purportedly put it, this "Sambo," who beat the "bitch." Seriously.

You know what? On second though, screw all this talk. Sarah Palin is a lying sack of theocratic shit.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:12 PM on September 5, 2008 [7 favorites]

Then please don't donate to our candidates. kthxbye.

Sure. I'll reframe it as giving money to my sister in California so she can afford to max out her donation, if that's preferable. But is it so surprising that people outside the US care enough about this election that they're moved to give money? I have to keep reminding myself that McCain and Palin aren't satirical candidates, people actually think they have a chance. The US election affects us all.
posted by goo at 3:16 PM on September 5, 2008 [3 favorites]

And gosh, nasreddin, Cheney eats babies! So what does that say about Palin's approval numbers?
posted by bitter-girl.com at 3:18 PM on September 5, 2008

Goo, your gift to your sister is appreciated by some Americans. We need all the help we can get. Apparently many of our fellow citizens hate this country.
posted by fourcheesemac at 3:19 PM on September 5, 2008

Okay, now they are trying to pick a fight with Oprah (claiming that Oprah is biased for not having Palin on the program). If you need any more proof that the Republicans have given up on the middle, here it is. They are picking a fight with Oprah.
posted by Bookhouse at 3:21 PM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

someone mentioned what a shame it was that the publicity over John Edwards' affair did not simply hurt his career, but it also likely took away one of the strongest and most genuine advocates for causes of the poor

I believe that was Bill Maher (New Rules, August 29, 2008):

Edwards is a man and he made a mistake. And, you know, a baby. And because of that there are some things he did not get to say at the convention. Like, the top one percent of people in American have more money than the bottom 150 million, and the gap between rich and poor is wider than it's been since the Great Depression. But the Democrats are so afraid of being the Adultery Party they missed yet another opportunity to be the Adult Party, the one that says loudly and proudly, "We don't care whose wee-wee goes into whose hoo-hoo." Our society is quick to chastise men who think with their dicks, but sacrificing a major voice on a big issue on the alter of puritanism, isn't that just as stupid as thinking with your dick? You know some presidents who had extra-marital affairs? Kennedy. Eisenhower. Roosevelt. Jefferson. You wanna know a president who ever had an affair? George W. Bush.

posted by kirkaracha at 3:24 PM on September 5, 2008 [4 favorites]

I guess what I'm saying is veep picks in themselves don't sway me much. If they did Obama would have lost my vote with Uncle Joe.

That's a poor analogy at best.

I can easily imagine thinking that Joe Biden's policy positions suck. I strongly disagree with several of them myself.

But Biden is clearly not a fundamentally absurd choice for VP. The same cannot be said about Palin.

Well, more exactly, it obviously can be said, since the Republicans have been saying it. But it can't be said in good faith.
posted by Flunkie at 3:30 PM on September 5, 2008

I'll reframe it as giving money to my sister in California so she can afford to max out her donation, if that's preferable.

You've gotten your sister involved in a felony, then.
posted by empath at 3:30 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

Great wheelchair / tricycle cartoon.
posted by ryanrs at 3:35 PM on September 5, 2008

For anyone who's not legally allowed to donate to the Obama campaign, you might consider donating to a group like MoveOn.org. They're doing a lot of work organizing volunteers and registering voters, and while it's obviously not as effective as giving directly to the candidate, it's a way to help out.
posted by EarBucket at 3:37 PM on September 5, 2008

Oh, shoot. Looks like you have to be a citizen for them, too. Hmm. Let me look into it.
posted by EarBucket at 3:41 PM on September 5, 2008

Or as Palin purportedly put it, this "Sambo," who beat the "bitch." Seriously.

Call me overcautious, but I don't think spreading a story from "Dick & Sharon's LA Progressive"--sourced to "Lucille, the waitress" --is really the kind of thing that's going to help Barack Obama get elected.
posted by neroli at 3:43 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

impalin' palin :P

it increasingly looks like mccain chose a gal with no qualms about abusing executive power *cough*cheney*cough* except she can shoot you in the face from fifty yards.

oh, oh, and...

bottom line: if you believe palin has a record of reform, i've got a bridge in alaska to sell you!
posted by kliuless at 3:45 PM on September 5, 2008

I think hiding Palin from the media is a mistake. There are only--what?--eight weeks in the campaign and she's taking a week off? This weekend could've been a triumphal tour of right-leaning talk shows. Instead all the buzz from her speech will dissipate and she Democrats get a chance to define her.
posted by kirkaracha at 3:46 PM on September 5, 2008

First time donor to a US election campaign here, too (although not surprising as I'm not a US citizen and have never lived there)

I'm sure your heart is in the right place, and I appreciate that you want to help.

What I would appreciate more, though -- and I say this with all due respect -- is if you would please let us win this without trying to help us by violating our election laws.

If you really want to help, might I suggest perhaps donating to the American Civil Liberties Union instead. It would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
posted by Flunkie at 3:50 PM on September 5, 2008 [4 favorites]

Sure. I'll reframe it as giving money to my sister in California so she can afford to max out her donation, if that's preferable.

Send her some bail money while you're at it. The laws against foreign donations to American campaigns are pretty strict.

Honestly, non-Americans, if you want to give money to our campaign, just don't, and don't try to find a way around the laws because you'll just get someone here in trouble. This campaign will see upwards of $1B between the two candidates already. We really don't need your money. Give it to a group who does, like Amnesty, or MSF, or World Vision, or Oxfam, or some quality charity in your neck of the woods.
posted by dw at 3:51 PM on September 5, 2008 [5 favorites]

They don't actually need Palin to talk to the media. In fact, the less everyone knows about her and the less people get a chance to see her, the better. She is more valuable as a symbol of getting a Christian, all-American, anti-Choice soccer/hockey mom into the white house. Any time she speaks she reduces her symbolic value.

Also, it gives McCain something to talk about on the road. I expect he'll be all Palin all the time.

Unless he is suggesting that he will die quickly when he gets into office (which he isn't), he's using her as a smoke screen so the base forgets that he despises them - and they him.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:55 PM on September 5, 2008

You could always give money to the American Red Cross, as Obama suggested in the run up to Gustav. That’s where my money went.
posted by Artw at 4:00 PM on September 5, 2008

Welcome to the People's Republic of Alaska, where every resident this year will get a $3,200 payout, thanks in no small measure to the efforts of Sarah Palin, the state's Republican governor. That's $22,400 for a family of seven, like Palin's.

[...]a state whose residents pay no income or sales taxes but are blessed with state coffers rolling in cash at a time when all other states are suffering. Indeed, when the oil companies pay more taxes to the state of Alaska, they get to write that off against their federal tax obligation, leaving the rest of us to make up the shortfall.

[...]the governor sent Stevens a request for $200 million to support various state projects. With representatives like that, it's no wonder that Alaska, despite its oil boom, is still at the top of states subsidized by federal dollars, receiving $1.84 back from Washington for every $1 that Alaskans pay in federal taxes. (California receives 78 cents for every $1.)

This is what I keep coming back to--Alaska has so much money coming in from the oil business they don't tax their citizens at a state level yet it receives more federal money than almost all other states, usually coming in at 1st or 2nd in the ratio of dollars paid to dollars returned. I get that it is hard to live there and expensive but hey! it's hard to live in New York city and expensive but no one is handing out federal funds for that!
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:01 PM on September 5, 2008

Here's a thought--I bet you could find someone who'd be willing to match a donation you made to the ACLU or the Red Cross or some other worthy organization with a donation of their own to Obama. Everybody wins. If no one in the thread here wants to do it, post a diary at Daily Kos about it. I guarantee you'll get takers.
posted by EarBucket at 4:06 PM on September 5, 2008

These two cartoons made me laugh 1, 2.
posted by Rumple at 4:11 PM on September 5, 2008

kirkaracha: Exactly. Yet have the GOP got any other choice? In a *normal* campaign situation you don't waste time getting out on the trail to build familiarity, and I'm sure even Quayle for one did just that. But it's confirmation of what everyone knows: the GOP veep candidate needs VP101 and she needs to cram it all. Just *saying* that, it's so obvious to me how pathetic it is: all about giving the public a dressed-up (as someone upthread said) Eliza Doolittle to pass off as a legitimately equipped contender.

A commenter from nasreddin's link earlier:
...a postive first impression will move many to favorable evaluations. If you know a lot about a candidate, it is much harder to change your opinions. If you know only a little, it doesn't take much to get you to change. But those who like Palin on low information are far more susceptible to changing their minds than those who have a lot.

Which hopefully helps my point. If not, it helps assure I'll sleep better for tonight, anyway, than I thought I would a few posts ago.
posted by skyper at 4:15 PM on September 5, 2008

Now that he's out of the running for VP, Gov. Kaine might be gunning for somebody's job over at the NBC affililiate station here in Richmond. About two minutes into this mini interview about Tropical Storm Hanna's projected track, he gets to talking about the campaign. (Direct .flv link because the player on the NBC12.com homepage wasn't working for me.)
posted by emelenjr at 4:20 PM on September 5, 2008

The following are excerpts from an opinion piece in The Irish Times today, entitled "My Alaskan soul sister is an empty vessel". It was written by an Alaskan woman, now resident in Ireland.

---

In addition to our almost nationalistic love for Alaska, Sarah Palin and I are both proud mothers of a child with Down syndrome.

My daughter Lily was born in Galway 10 years ago. It may be hard to believe, but the early childhood services in Ireland are better than they are in Alaska for people with Down syndrome.

When Sarah Palin gave birth to Trig, her son with Down syndrome, I hoped that she would beef up services for Alaska's disabled population. She could have done so overnight - but "social conservatives", especially tough super-moms like Sarah Palin, don't do that sort of thing.

It's the Democrats who care about single mothers and people with Down syndrome. It's the Democrats who designed community programmes for early intervention; it's the Democrats who instituted programmes for integration and it's the Democrats who fought for and passed the law that gives people with disabilities the right to a free and appropriate education in America's public schools.

---

The good news is that history often repeats itself. In the 1984 Miss Alaska contest, Sarah Palin lost to Marilyne Blackburn, the first African-American Miss Alaska.

Full article is here - http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0905/1220544890619.html
posted by knapah at 4:20 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

This thread will be so long that all others will pale in comparison.
posted by dawson at 4:31 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

They mean "we can't elect this uppity nigger."

Rep. Lynn Westmoreland (R-GA) stands by ‘uppity’ remark: ‘It accurately describes’ Obama.
posted by ericb at 4:31 PM on September 5, 2008

Okay, now they are trying to pick a fight with Oprah (claiming that Oprah is biased for not having Palin on the program). If you need any more proof that the Republicans have given up on the middle, here it is. They are picking a fight with Oprah.

Oprah: Sarah Palin Can Come On My Show After The Election

"Oprah Winfrey, who made the first political endorsement of her life this year in supporting Barack Obama, said in a statement Friday that she would be happy to have Republican Vice Presidential nominee Sarah Palin on her show — but not until after the election is over. The statement was meant to clarify a report on the Drudge Report, which claimed Oprah's staff was divided over having Palin and that Oprah refused due to her support of Obama:
'The item in today's Drudge Report is categorically untrue. There has been absolutely no discussion about having Sarah Palin on my show. At the beginning of this Presidential campaign when I decided that I was going to take my first public stance in support of a candidate, I made the decision not to use my show as a platform for any of the candidates. I agree that Sarah Palin would be a fantastic interview, and I would love to have her on after the campaign is over.'"

posted by ericb at 4:36 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

FWIW -- Oprah said last year that she would not having any prospective candidate (President, Vice President) on her television show -- and has not had one on. Her support of Obama is as a private citizen and personal endorsement.
posted by ericb at 4:40 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think they're giving her a week off for another birth and maternity leave.
posted by strangeleftydoublethink at 4:41 PM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

New York Times: The Real ’08 Fight: Clinton v. Palin?
posted by ericb at 4:51 PM on September 5, 2008

I was reading the Iroquois Constitution earlier today, and there's one passage that really jumped out at me. It pertains to when a Lord has abused his power and his position, has been given multiple warnings to cease and desist, but ignores them. When he is, after three warnings, stripped of his title, there's a ceremony where the War Chief addresses both the offending Lord and the council of women (Iroquois were matriarchic). A portion of this ceremony is as follows:

When a Lord is to be deposed, his War Chief shall address
him as follows:

"So you, __________, disregard and set at naught the
warnings of your women relatives. So you fling the warnings
over your shoulder to cast them behind you.

"Behold the brightness of the Sun and in the brightness of
the Sun's light I depose you of your title and remove the
sacred emblem of your Lordship title. I remove from your brow
the deer's antlers, which was the emblem of your position and
token of your nobility. I now depose you and return the
antlers to the women whose heritage they are."

The War Chief shall now address the women of the deposed
Lord and say:

"Mothers, as I have now deposed your Lord, I now return to
you the emblem and the title of Lordship, therefore repossess
them."

Again addressing himself to the deposed Lord he shall say:

"As I have now deposed and discharged you so you are now
no longer Lord. You shall now go your way alone, the rest of
the people of the Confederacy will not go with you, for we know
not the kind of mind that possesses you. As the Creator has
nothing to do with wrong so he will not come to rescue you from
the precipice of destruction in which you have cast yourself.
You shall never be restored to the position which you once
occupied."

The Iroquois are proudly democratic, and so value their system of governance that it defines them just as much as their language. The structure and the principles of the Iroquois constitution persists with them to this day. It is a truly and uniquely American system of governance. And in a perfect world, on the day that Bush leaves office, he would have to endure the ceremony of the fallen Lord. To me, it's not enough to say, "Whew, those two terms are over, finally!" The Bush presidency has so blighted America's legacy that, in my opinion, we require a symbolic if not spiritual cleansing of the office of the presidency before we can begin to repair the damage done. The Iroquois had the right idea. And even though nothing is written in stone, it's starting to look like the rest of America wants the White House cleansed as well.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:24 PM on September 5, 2008 [10 favorites]

Palin: Stealth Dominionist.

This bears looking into, because if the Dominionist nuts get ahold of the Presidency, say good bye to freedom.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:24 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

Similar to the "Mavrick" sign and the Walter Reed Middle School stuff...

51 star flag at the RNC.

It's like amateur hour.
posted by Flunkie at 5:26 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

FIRST!!!

oh
posted by gnome de plume at 5:32 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

Sure. I'll reframe it as giving money to my sister in California so she can afford to max out her donation

Unfortunately, that's totally illegal (on your sisters part, anyway)
posted by delmoi at 5:38 PM on September 5, 2008

51 star flag at the RNC.

Oh my god. How? Where would you even get one of those things? That's like a whole new cosmic plane of fail.
posted by EarBucket at 5:40 PM on September 5, 2008

51 star flag at the RNC.
Oh my god. How? Where would you even get one of those things? That's like a whole new cosmic plane of fail.

Maybe they're the delegation from Puerto Rico, and were making a statement?

I know that there's support in Puerto Rico for statehood, for status quo, and for independence; does anyone know how it typically breaks down along party lines (if it does at all)?
posted by Flunkie at 6:00 PM on September 5, 2008

if you have one of those fridge magnets with the Obama's doing the fist-bump, I love those too

Yeah, seriously, me-mail me too if you've got a spare, as I'd really like one. (Please don't make me search for them on ebay: damn website's just crowded with jet planes these days...)

I too am saddened that it's illegal for me, a non-American, to donate to Obama's campaign. Well, not quite saddened, because that's a pretty good law, but the point is that my regret upon reading the fine print about donations is about the first time in my life I actually regretted, for a moment, not being American.

The last two weeks I've watched both conventions. One week I spent inspired with hope for a better world; the subsequent week was full of stress and anxiety. Sure, I tried to be open-minded about the Republican party, and I'm glad I'm following this election, as it's taught me a great deal about politics. But it was the laughter about "community organizers" and "drill, baby, drill" that really pushed me over the edge. I already knew I wanted Obama. Now I see, though, not just how good it could be if he won but also how bad it will be if he doesn't. Please, for all our sakes', go elect him; it would be too hard to go back to cynicism after this.

(Oh, and yes, now that I know I can't donate to the Obama campaign, I think I will make a donation to some other charity. I think Barack'd feel like it was supporting his work, after all.)
posted by roombythelake at 6:12 PM on September 5, 2008 [6 favorites]

This thread has no exit strategy.
posted by drezdn at 6:22 PM on September 5, 2008 [3 favorites]

~~Palin~~ Diebold is gonna win this shit for McCain, you watch.

FTFY.
posted by zardoz at 6:30 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

Another thing about drilling is that it just pushes around the energy independence problem without actually addressing it, much like the Republican plans to cut taxes while borrowing more money simply push off budget problems into the future for our children to deal with.

Apart from any environmental concerns, drilling in ANWR or in other areas rather than in areas already approved for drilling is just going to ensure that people 30 years from now don't have that option when they're dealing with the fact that we didn't have the integrity to buckle down and actually pursue energy independence.

I haven't seen a number in bbl. but from the analyses of Obama's proper-tire-inflation point, that one tiny measure alone looks like it could have an impact on oil availability equal to all of the offshore drilling put together. So the assertion that a rational and practical energy policy just has to include more drilling appears to me to be a complete crock and an irresponsible and cynical bit of lobbyist-inspired legerdemain.
posted by XMLicious at 6:31 PM on September 5, 2008

Alaska has so much money coming in from the oil business they don't tax their citizens at a state level yet it receives more federal money than almost all other states

Alaska: The Welfare State
posted by msalt at 6:32 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin: Stealth Dominionist.

I'm not seeing a lot here, other than the AIP's connections to the Constitution Party, which even then is tenuous (I don't see Howard Phillips self-identifying as a domininist anywhere, though he has some affinity or connections with them). Oh, and the strange slur "neopente," which according to Google pretty much only occurs on dKos reader journals. It doesn't reflect reality.

And I also see a lack of understanding of what dominionism actually is. To say "we are a Christian nation" is dominionism, so in that sense we've had a dominionist in office for 4 of the last 7 presidential terms. Hardcore dominionists, though, are fringe characters.

There are a lot of issues with the AOG that have yet to be brought up, but they are not hardcore dominionists. It doesn't sound like either of her churches is, even if they seem to practice some milder form of it. And since most of the hardcore dominionists are also Calvinists with their own strictness about sex roles, I think they'd have trouble with her as president.

But the thing that gets me about calling Palin "stealth" anything? It's... eerily familiar.
posted by dw at 6:34 PM on September 5, 2008

This thread has no exit strategy.

Any talk of an exit strategy is Defeatocrat propaganda. Why do you hate The Thread?
posted by Flunkie at 6:34 PM on September 5, 2008 [4 favorites]

Wait, the Republicans are putting Palin in purdah?
posted by QIbHom at 6:47 PM on September 5, 2008

+$60.00 for Obama. I was going to wait for my next paycheck on the 15th, thinking I need to save more money for my kid's college fund, but I doubt under McCain, any college fund is going to do any good. I wisht there'd been a checkbox on the Obama site that said "I donated because I'm appalled by Palin," because I would have checked it.
posted by Devils Rancher at 7:29 PM on September 5, 2008 [6 favorites]

This thread has no exit strategy.

I propose that we all withdraw one at a time while leaving a . for the loss of McCain's sanity.

.

Goodbye sweet Palin thread. We had some great times.
posted by clearly at 7:59 PM on September 5, 2008

So, let me get this straight -- it is legal for non-U.S. citizens to donate to organisations like the ACLU? Because I'm happy to part with my money for any improvised reason.

Well that, and I'm just curious.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 8:42 PM on September 5, 2008

You may want to take a look at the Master's Commission of Wasilla, Alaska. It looks like some sort of ministry program at Sarah Palin's Assembly of God church in Wasilla. There are some YouTube clips here and here .

That's no big thing. Looks like the type of thing Youth With A Mission (YWAM) does.

It's like a discipleship program where you are taught the Bible and then go out and do Christian work.

I am even familiar with some of the materials they are using to teach (ex. I have heard John Bevere speak a number of times) and I can confidently say this stuff is NOT Dominionist. (And the AOG definitely is Arminian. I used to be a member of that denomination back in the early 80s. ) AOG is also pretty liberal about women leaders IIRC.

These are not the folks who want to put you in a civic theocracy. For that you look at churches such as ultraconservative Presbyterian.
posted by konolia at 8:43 PM on September 5, 2008

bottom line: if you believe palin has a record of reform, i've got a bridge in alaska to sell you!

Palin will go to Congress to get money for that bridge for you! Until she changes her mind. Then she'll say she was always against it.
posted by inigo2 at 8:47 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

Just watched 'Real Time With Bill Maher.' In a comedic interlude from his panel discussion he showed proposed campaign posters, as if written by Levi Johnson -- teen father of Bristol Palin's child.

The one that cracked-up the crowd:

"Cuntry First! Condoms Second!

posted by ericb at 8:49 PM on September 5, 2008

This thread has no exit strategy.

I propose that we all withdraw one at a time...

Typical liberal nonsense. What we really need here is a SURGE!
posted by Balonious Assault at 8:53 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

Then she'll say she was always against it.

But without returning the money.
posted by drezdn at 8:58 PM on September 5, 2008

I like Obama as a person but I think he is too idealistic

you know who else they said was too idealistic?

why someone even cynically asked him what truth was ...
posted by pyramid termite at 9:00 PM on September 5, 2008

New GOP Spin: Palin's Not Ready

"Todd Harris, a GOP strategist who is close to the McCain campaign, says Palin won't be available to the press for about two weeks. His defense? She might make 'a mistake.'

If she goes out and makes a mistake, that is something that [voters will] care about, and that's something that will haunt [McCain] for awhile, so I think this is a smart move.

This has got to be one of the craziest messaging decisions ever: Harris is conceding that Palin's not even ready to be a vice presidential candidate, let alone be president.

I just don't see how they can sustain two weeks of keeping Palin in hiding. Every day the McCain campaign keeps her away from reporters just highlights the fact that they don't think she's ready.

This strikes me as a pretty impressive strategic blunder."

posted by ericb at 9:15 PM on September 5, 2008

Team McCain and the Trooper -- "Nominee's ally moves to curb probe of Palin."
posted by ericb at 9:18 PM on September 5, 2008

These are not the folks who want to put you in a civic theocracy.

These are not the droids you're looking for.
posted by dogrose at 9:20 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

It is really uncouth of non-Americans to contribute to the Obama campaign. Y'all will give flak when the USA does it to other countries, but you're gonna give yourself a pass when you yourself do it?

Bad form, people, bad form indeed. Talk it up all you want, but don't go breaking a foreign nation's election laws.

These are not the folks who want to put you in a civic theocracy. For that you look at churches such as ultraconservative Presbyterian.

It sure is interesting how you can maintain your contradictory beliefs without your head exploding. On the one hand, you apparently dislike the Dominionist idea and are not in support of a theocracy... and yet on the other, you wish your religious ideas about abortion to be forced upon the nation (or, at least, for your state to force them upon your fellow state citizens).
posted by five fresh fish at 9:30 PM on September 5, 2008

Those were the droids I was looking for.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:34 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

These are not the folks who want to put you in a civic theocracy. For that you look at churches such as ultraconservative Presbyterian.

Ok, konolia, you owe me a keyboard. As a child my church was a Presbyterian church (like you, in AR! Pig sooie and all that), and IMHO, it's really far removed from the kind of fire-and-brimstone you get from any number of fundie churches. I went a few times to various fundamental churches, namely to Southern Baptist services, and compared to the Presbyterian church it's like night and day. Presbyterianism is a quite moderate denomination, at least mine was, though other areas of the country (or even in the South) other churches might be more....intense.
posted by zardoz at 10:06 PM on September 5, 2008

This has got to be one of the craziest messaging decisions ever: Harris is conceding that Palin's not even ready to be a vice presidential candidate, let alone be president.

I just don't see how they can sustain two weeks of keeping Palin in hiding. Every day the McCain campaign keeps her away from reporters just highlights the fact that they don't think she's ready.

This strikes me as a pretty impressive strategic blunder."

No no no, this is mostly about building Drama. Palin is a talented politician, she's probably not that stupid, and by hiding her away, making people speculate they're building a huge amount of drama. Just look at how the Obama campaign "leaked" reports about how bill Clinton was "miffed". It became a huge story -- would Clinton deliver for Obama, or sabotage him? Of course Clinton comes out and does a great speech, with lots more people watching.

By hiding Palin away for a while, people speculate. Is she too dumb, or what? Then, she gets a huge set of preconditions agreed too and does Larry King or Fox news or whatever. As long as she can give a good interview (and she'll have talking points memorized for everything that might come up) the press will hail her as the greatest thing ever, because expectations would be so low.
posted by delmoi at 10:11 PM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

It is really uncouth of non-Americans to contribute to the Obama campaign. Y'all will give flak when the USA does it to other countries, but you're gonna give yourself a pass when you yourself do it?

Dude, what? The U.S. government "interferes" with elections all the time, the fact that foreign people complain about it doesn't mean it would be hypocritical for them to donate. I'd prefer they didn't because if it got out the GOP would make it a campaign issue, but obviously there is a huge difference between a gigantic multitrillion dollar government coming down on one side in an foreign election, and individual citizens of other countries contributing small amounts of money to U.S. Candidates.

And furthermore, it seems strange to get upset about it when the actions of the U.S. government really can have an impact on their lives.
posted by delmoi at 10:18 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

Ok, konolia, you owe me a keyboard. As a child my church was a Presbyterian church (like you, in AR! Pig sooie and all that), and IMHO, it's really far removed from the kind of fire-and-brimstone you get from any number of fundie churches. I went a few times to various fundamental churches, namely to Southern Baptist services, and compared to the Presbyterian church it's like night and day. Presbyterianism is a quite moderate denomination, at least mine was, though other areas of the country (or even in the South) other churches might be more....intense.

First off, I'm a North Carolinian and a charismatic. Second, I'm not talking fire and brimstone. I am talking about really really conservative branches of certain churches-the kind of folks who can split a frog hair three ways when discussing Calvinism.

You know, there are about 100 or so types of Baptists-there are also moderate Presbyterians who would be very comfortable here on the filter. These are not the folks I mean.
posted by konolia at 10:43 PM on September 5, 2008

On the one hand, you apparently dislike the Dominionist idea and are not in support of a theocracy... and yet on the other, you wish your religious ideas about abortion to be forced upon the nation (or, at least, for your state to force them upon your fellow state citizens).

That's not Dominionism. That's "forcing your beliefs upon the nation." Or, as we used to call it, political advocacy.

Stop throwing around Dominionism like it's some New Hipster Catchphrase. Konolia is right -- it's primarily a Calvinist belief and therefore finds a lot of its support in the Reformed movement. It's a belief that the rule of law comes from the Bible and therefore the Bible must be what governs. Taliban-esque. They tend to worship Oliver Cromwell too much.

The main difference between the Dominionists and Palin's church, best I can tell from the bible school they run and other things (apparently with ties to the Latter Rain movement and people like Benny Hinn), is that Palin's church believes they can transform the nation via "winning lost souls." The Dominionists don't care about lost souls, they care about taking power and putting the Bible at the center of law. Dominionism is about theonomy.

There are weaker forms of Dominionism, and they're the forms you associate with Dobson, Falwell, and Robertson. But they don't embrace the theonomy. They pick and choose based on the issue. And the softcore, lesser Dominionists are so tainted by a generation of Republican politics that they aren't really sure what they believe.

Really, they (people like Dobson) are closer to political advocates than theological Dominionists. Like an environmental lobbying group, only one that's successfully built a voting bloc and infiltrated the corridors of power.

Palin's church, theologically, looks more like TBN than Rushdoony.

Ok, konolia, you owe me a keyboard. As a child my church was a Presbyterian church (like you, in AR! Pig sooie and all that), and IMHO, it's really far removed from the kind of fire-and-brimstone you get from any number of fundie churches.

PC(USA)? Sure.

PCA? OPC? Reformed Church of America? Not so much.
posted by dw at 11:05 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

This is what Dominionists say about Palin, fff.
posted by dw at 11:11 PM on September 5, 2008 [1 favorite]

NPR has a nice story on the the charming Anne Kilkenny, who's been thrust suddenly into the spotlight as her letter about her former mayor spreads across the political blogs. (See empath's link above.) Shows you what an alert citizen with a dial-up connection can do.
posted by hydrophonic at 11:19 PM on September 5, 2008 [5 favorites]

Thanks for the link, dw. I stand very corrected.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:33 PM on September 5, 2008

I think the question all Mefites, and indeed all Americans, are asking themselves right now is: can I kick it?
posted by penduluum at 4:48 PM on September 5

I was wondering more along the lines of "Will it blend?"
posted by jb at 11:34 PM on September 5, 2008

Joe Biden, laying down some smack.
posted by delmoi at 11:53 PM on September 5, 2008 [2 favorites]

*Illuminates thread by opening refrigerator door enroute to midnight snack

YOU GUYS ARE STILL HERE??
posted by nudar at 12:02 AM on September 6, 2008 [2 favorites]

More Scandal.

Not that other politicians don't talk to their spouses about what's going on... but seldom are they dumb enough to write it down.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:03 AM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

dw's link and the various blog postings and articles it links to are very interesting to read. Lots of diversity and richness amongst the political opinions, even at the way far other end of the spectrum there.
posted by XMLicious at 12:13 AM on September 6, 2008

jb writes "I think the question all Mefites, and indeed all Americans, are asking themselves right now is: can I kick it?
"posted by penduluum at 4:48 PM on September 5

"I was wondering more along the lines of 'Will it blend?'"

As konolia has shown us, the question is always, "how is babby formed?"
posted by orthogonality at 12:25 AM on September 6, 2008 [3 favorites]

1019 since your most recent comment

Sooooo.... what happened.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 12:56 AM on September 6, 2008

I'm a little worrried about my parents. My dad turns 80 in a few days and McCain and Palin just make them both so angry. They're going to have something burst if they're not careful.

I like my dad--so, give to Obama, and vote for the man.
posted by maxwelton at 1:07 AM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

See Wasilla Web Page on their sales tax here.

It says that the sales tax on a single transaction is capped at $12.50. ie, only the first $500 of each single transaction is taxed. Sales tax applies to ALL retail sales, EVEN FOOD and all RENTALS.

So, the affect of this is that hard-working Wasillians will be paying $2.50 for every $100 of groceries, but when Mrs John McCain comes to town to buy her next $200,000 pair of earrings, she'll only be taxed $12.50 giving her the bargain tax rate of 0.00625% for luxury goods compared to the 2.5% paid by all the other poor working stiffs for their daily bread.

Renters of a $500 apartment will pay the city $12.50 every month, so that property taxes can be lowered for the upper tier.
posted by marsha56 at 3:08 AM on September 6, 2008 [11 favorites]

Is it common for sales taxes to have transaction caps like this? I haven't heard of this before. I was just so shocked at this really slimy way to make an already regressive tax MUCH more regressive, especially when it is being applied to food and shelter.
posted by marsha56 at 3:13 AM on September 6, 2008

I like my dad--so, give to Obama, and vote for the man.

Screw Obama, I'm voting for your dad.
posted by daniel_charms at 3:21 AM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oops - it was a gift! No strings attached. That she chose to use it to donate to Obama made me very happy, however.

I'll just keep cheering loudly from the sidelines, then, before any men in black come knocking on my door...
posted by goo at 4:03 AM on September 6, 2008

So, let me get this straight -- it is legal for non-U.S. citizens to donate to organisations like the ACLU? Because I'm happy to part with my money for any improvised reason.

As far as I can tell from their website, that's correct. They'll have to tell you as you go through the donation process anyway--if it's a group that can only accept donations from US citizens, they'll have a box you have to check affirming your citizenship.

Amnesty International might also be a good place to send some cash if you think torturing people's a bad idea.
posted by EarBucket at 4:51 AM on September 6, 2008

Please put an * at the beginning of all comments about abortion so those of us who aren't interested in the derail can skip over them more easily. Thanks!
posted by Daddy-O at 4:52 AM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

From LiveJournal's metaquotes community:

I am the very model of a modern-day conservative
In governance and policy my thoughts are quite derivative
Suppress dissent and crush the poor, at base these comprise my intent
My hatred for democracy and freedom is self-evident

I have no care for principles, unless they be tyrannical
My ethics are a bandit's and my mores puritanical
For dignity of humankind I neither care nor understand
My only loyalties are what the new plutocracy demand

About the war, I proudly say that I would take no action
For endless war is beneficial to my ruling faction
To keep our wealth we must ensure American hegemony
It doesn't matter who objects, dissention is our enemy!

more here
posted by aihal at 5:26 AM on September 6, 2008 [8 favorites]

Those of us in the konolia challenge have agreed to draw the line here, in part because the thread is becoming cumbersome and in part because a few people thought we were being "mean" to konolia by doing it. Finally, while the feeling is still focused, we want to make sure the checks get written.

OK. So I count 23 konolia comments since my challenge, but I'm sure I missed a couple. So a couple of the challenge folks and I have agreed to set the number at 25, and each make $150 donations to the Obama campaign (I am making mine to the DNC, actually, since I plan to max out to Obama on my own).

If all four of us do it, we thank konolia for inspiring a $600 haul for Obama in this thread. Not a bad payout for the time invested, actually.

If anyone else wishes to join the "konolia 4 Obama" pledge at this late point, simply visit barackobama.com and give $150. Remember to put "for konolia" in the little message box. If the Obama folks see that in 4 or 5 donations, they'll be delightfully puzzled. I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know, though, so I can add to the tally (via Mefi Mail).

In addition, I count about 15 posts in this thread saying "I gave to Obama and it was the first contribution of my life to any campaign." Figure each of those was a $50 gift (I happen to know from one person that hers/his was *much, much* larger) and we're talking around another thousand dollars raised in this thread (750, but allowing for the "much much larger").

So that means this thread is responsible for *at least* $1600 in new donations for Barack Obama.

And that ain't bad at all.

The offiicial konolia challenge has now ended.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:24 AM on September 6, 2008 [4 favorites]

And of course I meant to thank konolia for playing along and being a good sport about it, even if some others didn't see the good humor of the gesture.

And I wish to thank Sarah Palin for revving up the democratic base.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:28 AM on September 6, 2008

Ack, I can't do math in the morning.

For 25 posts, @$5 each, that's $125 per pledger in the challenge, or $500, and a $1500 total haul in the thread by conservative estimate.

Tell you what: I'll make up the extra $100 as a penalty for screwing up the math.

Kisses all around. And apologies to agregoli for sniping at her upthread.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:34 AM on September 6, 2008

Wow I am learning more about Alaska than I ever imagined I would want to know. I feel like I'm back in 8th grade about to give my report on "Alaska: Bigger and Colder." Today's lesson? Alaska sends their prisoners to Arizona (hmmm, wonder if the Senator from Arizona knew that?)

Planegate coverage by The Chicago Tribune:

Alaska does not have adequate prison capacity and contracts for space with a private facility near Phoenix. On Thursday, 24 percent of the 4,546 Alaskans in jail or in prison were serving their time at Arizona's Red Rock Correctional Center, said a spokesman for the Alaska Department of Corrections.

When the state first began using the plane in November 2005, prisoner transport accounted for 58 percent of the jet's use, and Murkowski's office used it 23 percent of the time. Over time, Murkowski's usage increased.

Today, the U.S. Marshals Service transports 90 percent of Alaska prisoners to Arizona.

The last U.S. Marshal flights to and from Arizona transported 145 prisoners at a cost of $127,000, or about $875 per prisoner. That's cheaper than the jet, whose per-prisoner cost averaged $1,674.

Geez you would think with all that federal money they've got floating around and all that space they would be importing prisoners, not exporting.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 7:18 AM on September 6, 2008

So, let me get this straight -- it is legal for non-U.S. citizens to donate to organisations like the ACLU? Because I'm happy to part with my money for any improvised reason.

Yes... it's absolutely legal for US non-profits to take money from overseas. Whether you will get a tax benefit is up to the laws of your country. (10 years experience in non-profit fundraising in the US.)
posted by kimdog at 7:29 AM on September 6, 2008

So that means this thread is responsible for *at least* $1600 in new donations for Barack Obama.
fourcheese,you musta missed the counter challenge I mentioned, so that means 3200 to the GOP. What a neat way to make fund raising fun raising.
posted by dawson at 7:41 AM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

I didn't know about the konolia challenge until your recent post, fourcheesemac (#3818, not linking to it because I don't want to reload the SLPT* for the comment stamp), but there are two things that strike me here:

I think it unfair that you felt the need to put a price tag on konolia's free speech. So how's it go...everytime she stands up for herself she knows she does so at cross purposes, because her team will take a hit? (and of course, no moral penalty for the offensive side) That's a fucked way to play.

Putting the word "mean" in quotes like you did reads to me like you didn't take others' complaints seriously, and that you don't consider it mean at all, and therefore not the sincere reason you're ending the challenge, but more of a "because mom says we have to" approach. Is this what you were intending? Please correct me if I am wrong.

Sorry if I came off as aggressive. I do think it's great that you're banding together and raising money and support for the Obama campaign. It's just that the methodology seems a bit off here, and so I wanted to point that out, and give a chance for you to correct me if I (and possibly others) are misreading.

*Staggeringly Long Palin Thread
posted by iamkimiam at 7:52 AM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

yeah, dawson, I saw the counter-challenge.

pardon me for not believing it was serious. but i still doubt much of that $3200 will actually materialize.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:00 AM on September 6, 2008

So how's it go...everytime she stands up for herself she knows she does so at cross purposes, because her team will take a hit? So how's it go...everytime she stands up for herself she knows she does so at cross purposes, because her team will take a hit?

That's actually a good pro-tip for konolia, challenge or no challenge.
posted by found missing at 8:10 AM on September 6, 2008

(By which I mean, anyone can come here and say "my friends have agreed to double whatever you do." I think konolia did the same thing. Sounds like bluster to me. But here, in this thread, we have concrete pledges from members of this community with long-standing reputations in this community. In fact, 3 of 4 have been in contact with me confirming their intention to meet the challenge, and the 4th is someone I trust to do so. And we have 15 or so people who are also mostly long-standing members of the community saying they have already given to Obama as a result of the Palin speech and this thread. Whereas I don't think I've seen one single comment actually claiming to have given to McCain/Palin as a result of the convention or this thread. I mean, I could say "my friends have promised to quadruple whatever your friends give," and you'd have no way to independently confirm even the existence of such friends, let alone the commitment to donate, or the actual handover of the cash.)

It's not that I don't believe you. It's that there is no social pressure on your "friends" to meet their promise of doubling the results in this thread. And in any case, since these "friends" are not participating in the thread, it's a bit of a stretch to say this thread raised a red cent for McCain.

But we will see in a few weeks what happened with fundraising this week. My bet is that Obama, as usual, will substantially kick the crap out of McCain by this metric, again.

Or can someone who actually has given money to McCain as a result of this thread -- and is a member of our community -- tell us what they've given?

Because I agree it's fun, and interesting, to play this game. But I think bringing in pledges from "friends" who are not members of this community or participants on this thread breaks the spirit of the game.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:11 AM on September 6, 2008

We're going to 4,000! We'll get it from delmoi! And fourcheesemac! and ericb! And konolia! We'll get it from orthogonality, and onlyconnect, and Flunkie, and dw! And then we'll get it from troybob, and psmealey, and ROU_Xenophobe! YEEEARRRGHHHH!!!!

*names taken mostly randomly from thread, if I did not include you, I still love you in a very real way
posted by cavalier at 8:29 AM on September 6, 2008 [14 favorites]

Gov. Sarah Palin’s church is promoting a conference that promises to convert gays into heterosexuals through the power of prayer.

“You’ll be encouraged by the power of God’s love and His desire to transform the lives of those impacted by homosexuality,” according to the insert in the bulletin of the Wasilla Bible Church, where Palin has prayed for about six years.
posted by EarBucket at 8:34 AM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh dear, I just watched the Daily Show stuff that Secret Life of Gravy referred to upthread. Sometimes I think the candidates should just use that show for their campaign ads.

Small town values are...... er.......
Republican: "having a tractor in the field, a cow in the barn..."
Interviewer: "and what do you do for a living?"
Republican: "I'm a lobbyist"

Ouch.
posted by knapah at 8:35 AM on September 6, 2008 [2 favorites]

Fucks sake, children, chill out on this asinine "game." It was a stupid idea to begin with, it's a stupid idea to end with, and it's doing nothing to improve community.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:43 AM on September 6, 2008 [5 favorites]

You may want to take a look at the Master's Commission of Wasilla, Alaska. It looks like some sort of ministry program at Sarah Palin's Assembly of God church in Wasilla. There are some YouTube clips here and here .

That's no big thing. Looks like the type of thing Youth With A Mission (YWAM) does.

It's more the messianic overtones that bug me. These clips from the ministry program talk about conquering the U.S.A. and the world from the starting point of Wasilla, Alaska. The recent promotion of an Assembly of God mayor from Wasilla, Alaska to a heartbeat away from the presidency would certainly give some people the notion that prophecies are being fulfilled. When I hear Republicans joking about Obama supposedly having a messiah complex and using that to fuel under-the-radar campaigns about Obama being the Antichrist, I can assure you I do have a major problem with the Republican vice presidential candidate's church making promotional videos with messianic imagery about conquering the entire world. Obama doesn't have the messiah complex; it's Palin and her fellow churchgoers.
posted by jonp72 at 8:49 AM on September 6, 2008 [3 favorites]

I see yr point fourcheese, I guess it doesn't 'count'. Mostly it was people disgusted with the 'game' and implicit censorship of a dissenting viewpoint (one given w/o any personal attacks or belittling/harassment of others as far as I could ascertain) who were gonna give anyway. Because of Palin and the Convention.
posted by dawson at 8:56 AM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

A sloppy, poorly labeled graph of the hourly comment activity in this thread so far.
posted by cortex at 8:58 AM on September 6, 2008 [2 favorites]

A sloppy, poorly labeled graph of the hourly comment activity in this thread so far.

Now we know when ericb sleeps.....

Though since the graph shows the thread started in 1999 I'm not sure that's a fair deduction.
posted by Rumple at 9:19 AM on September 6, 2008

As the owner of a pit mix, I don't appreciate Sarah Palin comparing herself to my dog. What is the difference between that hockey mom and a pit bull? One is a sweet, gentle, loving couch dog and the other is a frothing at the mouth rabid attack bitch with lipstick.

Seen on web:
Q What's the difference between Dick Cheney and Sarah Palin?
A When Sarah Palin shoots a lawyer he stays down.
posted by Daddy-O at 9:21 AM on September 6, 2008 [4 favorites]

And by the way, if this incredibly long thread does reach 4,000 comments, it will still be less than one comment for each of the US soldiers killed in Iraq. Think about THAT in the voting booth.
posted by Daddy-O at 9:25 AM on September 6, 2008 [2 favorites]

Gov. Sarah Palin’s church is promoting a conference that promises to convert gays into heterosexuals through the power of prayer

Taking a cue from the konolia / fourcheesemac /dawson / dawson's tattooed murderer friends imbroglio, I hereby pledge that for every gay they convert into a heterosexual through the power of prayer, I will convert two straights into homosexuals through the power of prayer!

WHO IS WITH ME?
posted by Flunkie at 9:30 AM on September 6, 2008 [16 favorites]

For every comment in this thread, I'll donate a penny to the Humane Society.
posted by drezdn at 9:33 AM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

Though since the graph shows the thread started in 1999 I'm not sure that's a fair deduction.

Let me change my description to "surreally labled graph".
posted by cortex at 9:38 AM on September 6, 2008

For every $5 sent to me I promise to donate $3 to Pit Bulls Without Lipstick. won't someone think of the dogs?
posted by Sailormom at 9:44 AM on September 6, 2008

If you're trying to raise money for a single purpose, you should create a fundraising page on my.barackobama.com. That way you'll be able to actually prove how much you're donating. Rather then picking on Konolia, it might be interesting to create a "Sarah Palin thread" page on there, and raise $1 for every comment on this thread.
posted by delmoi at 9:47 AM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

Though since the graph shows the thread started in 1999 I'm not sure that's a fair deduction.

This proves my theory that cortex is mathowie traveling backwards in time.

I have no idea what that means.
posted by lukemeister at 10:05 AM on September 6, 2008

So it looks like McCain's election strategy is:
- McCain was a POW.
- Obama is black.
- Look! Over there! Shiny shiny Sarah Palin! (Pay no attention to any of that "issues" stuff.)

As far as I can tell, it seems to be working pretty well for him so far...
posted by klausness at 10:09 AM on September 6, 2008 [3 favorites]

By comparison, here is an equally surreally labeled graph of the Violet Blue thread on the same scale. Or at least the first ten days of it—on this scale, the latter slow-burn epic longboaty two thirds aren't visible. I've got a lot of work to do yet on my graphing project.

For reference, here's a typical mefi thread with a few dozen comments. Note that I'm not scaling vertical proportions on these yet; imagine that graph being about 1/15th as tall for a real comparison.
posted by cortex at 10:12 AM on September 6, 2008

Only 156 comments to go.
posted by klausness at 10:12 AM on September 6, 2008

And as long as we're making nutty pledges, I pledge that for every comment than anyone posts in this thread—and this applies retroactively, even—I will not only read that comment but even consider responding to it and/or deleting it.

As a bonus, I will represent it in aggregate form in a bar graph.
posted by cortex at 10:15 AM on September 6, 2008

So it looks like McCain's election strategy is:
- McCain was a POW.
- Obama is black.
- Look! Over there! Shiny shiny Sarah Palin! (Pay no attention to any of that "issues" stuff.)

Uppity. The word is uppity. Get it straight.
posted by Flunkie at 10:17 AM on September 6, 2008

Also, you forgot to mention that McCain was a POW, and that McCain was a POW.
posted by Flunkie at 10:21 AM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

This whole Palin thing has really opened my eyes to stuff I had successfully ignored since the last election. I never knew of the existence of Michele Malkin until this thread - and now she has linked to Jessamyn, because Jessamyn pointed out on her blog the Palin's banned books list that was being bandied about is probably apocryphal (Malkin somehow insinuating that the whole banning story was bullshit - when really it was just the list itself that was suspect).

Yikes, it's a crazy world.

I don't have cable, don't watch a lot of TV, but in my side jobs I deal with a wide variety of small businesses, mostly in the city and I read alot - so I think I know the zeitgeist. I am friendly and outgoing, and I hear all kinds of stuff from people, but nothing like I have been hearing on the internets as the home stretch to Nov 4th approaches.

This morning in the background of some Yahoo showbiz gossip thing I see a post from someone saying that the names of the Democratic ticket are suspect, i.e. Barack Hussein Obama (three islamic names) and Biden (biding his time) = Islamic world domination.
Does the poster really believe this crap? If they do, how could they possibly have enough mental accuity to get thru life? Is it all just really cynical planting of doubts that will stick like earworms in otherwise empty minds?
I have always been fascinated by mass hysteria and how ideas are spread and this strikes me as intentional. Get the base into an emotional froth and then watch the waves of that emotional buildup travel outwards.
Yeah I'm getting kind of nutty. I hope.
posted by readery at 10:25 AM on September 6, 2008

Oh - but in my travels in the past couple of days, I made a point to talk to two people I know who vote fairly conservatively, pay attention but are not overly invested in politics. Both had told me earlier in the summer they were leaning towards McCain. In both cases the addition of Palin to the ticket made them switch to Obama, one due to her inexperience the other to her "shrillness".

Just anecdotes, but sometimes that works better for me than listening to polls. (I know also that as I am in Chicago, my base is fairly skewed towards our golden boy and local community organizer).
posted by readery at 10:35 AM on September 6, 2008

you'd never heard of Malkin? the nice lady who had a Rachel Ray/Dunkin Dounts ad pulled because of Ray's wardrobe choice (an OMG headscarf!)
Ignorance really can be bliss I suppose...
posted by dawson at 10:49 AM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

More Scandal.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:03 AM on September 6

Oddly, that blog post is about Todd Palin intervening to get a man fired because he was dating Debbie Richter -- the ex-wife of Scott Richter. Scott Richter is the guy who went to court Wednesday to get his divorce papers sealed -- because the National Enquirer was pursing rumors that he had an affair with Sarah Palin.

It's a twisted, twisted soap opera in the Palin clan.
posted by msalt at 11:01 AM on September 6, 2008 [2 favorites]

I missed this older comment:
at the high school level are parents much involved in home schooling?
Is the home schooling thing confirmed? At any rate: yes, most parents would say that homeschooling a high school senior is hard work, at least if you want your child to go to college. I think it is especially hard if you only started homeschooling in the last year of high school (chances are that colleges will see you as a dropout, unless you can impress them with some serious work that you did during your homeschooling year), and the pregnancy thing of course does not help matters much. Alaska does seem to have rather lax homeschooling laws. There is no required testing and no supervision.

There is absolutely no way that Palin or her husband can homeschool her now, but of course it is possible that a grand parent or someone else steps in.
posted by davar at 11:22 AM on September 6, 2008

So it looks like McCain's election strategy is:
- McCain was a POW.
- Obama is black.
- Look! Over there! Shiny shiny Sarah Palin! (Pay no attention to any of that "issues" stuff.)

this late in the game, after almost a year of media coverage of the primaries and of both conventions, most undecided voters are those who'll decide based on character, not on issues. whether they'll see the race as "war hero" vs "empty suit", "doddering old fool" vs "dynamic young leader" or simply "white" vs "black" remains to be seen.

the Republicans have shown in 2000 how you actually sink a McCain candidacy: you use his main asset, his POW story, as a weapon against him -- to hint with the right code words ("temper") and innuendo that he's crazy; add a pinch of old-skool plain racist smears in the South, and you're home free. Bush has shown you how to beat McCain, just like Hillary has shown how you weaken Obama. but the Democrats can't really play the Bush 2000 game, to their credit, I guess, if you want to win but not at all cost.

"A smear campaign of the ugliest sort is now coursing through the contest for the presidency in 2000. Using the code word 'temper,' a group of Senate Republicans, and at least some outriders of the George W. Bush campaign, are spreading the word that John McCain is unstable." [Washington Post, Elizabeth Drew, "Those Whispers About McCain," 11/19/99]

now that's how you smear a candidate and win. "Palin wanted to censor books"? "Palin had a lover"? not really.
posted by matteo at 11:28 AM on September 6, 2008

The Raleigh News & Observer ran a column today praising small town mayors, particularly the current mayor of Clayton. This was an email I sent to the author, Dan Barkin:

I read your column on small town mayors this morning, and you are right, it should be a great story-- that a small town mayor has risen to such great heights. That is the quintessential American Dream, Capraesque if you will. If only Sarah Palin hadn't botched the job so badly. She started off on the wrong foot, lying on her application to be mayor, and things went downhill from there. For example, while Alaskans don't have state taxes, they do have city taxes and Mayor Palin raised them-- the most regressive tax system I've ever heard of. If you check Wasilla's web site as of today, there is a 12 and a half percent tax across the board with a $12.50 cap. If you buy $100.00 worth of groceries, you pay $12.50 but if you buy a $50,000 snow machine you still pay $12.50.

Unfortunately higher taxes didn't bring in enough money for Mayor Palin. She hired a Washington D.C. lobbyist and it paid off. The town of Wasilla (pop 4,500 when she took office) received $27 million in federal hand outs. Wow! Think what Clayton could do with that!. Strangely, with all that money coming in she reduced spending on the town museum and opposed spending money on the town library.

That still wasn't enough money for Sarah Palin (that woman thinks BIG) so she borrowed $22 million dollars. $15 million of that was budgeted for a sports complex that has yet (as of 7 years later) to be built. The city tried to seize the land using eminent domain and the owners of the land are fighting it in the courts. I'm not a mayor, but I would hope that my mayor would have sense enough not to borrow money for a sports complex until the land has been secured.

Besides the budgeting issues Sarah Palin had big personnel management issues. Shortly after assuming office she fired all the city employees including the much-loved librarian. The town was so outraged that there was an immediate demand for a recall, so Mayor Palin rather than risk losing her office, hired the librarian back.

In the end the city council pressured Mayor Palin to hire a city administrator since she was so bad at her job.

Finally, The Anchorage Daily News 4/22/03, a year after she left office, named Wasilla as "The Meth Capital of Alaska." Not something a mayor, even a former mayor, can be proud of.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 11:32 AM on September 6, 2008 [6 favorites]

(obviously, in order to pull off the "racist smears in the South" part of the anti-McCain strategy, it helps if your candidate is white)
posted by matteo at 11:32 AM on September 6, 2008

Alaskans Speak (In A Frightened Whisper): Palin Is “Racist, Sexist, Vindictive, And Mean”
posted by nickyskye at 11:35 AM on September 6, 2008 [5 favorites]

I will convert two straights into homosexuals through the power of prayer!

That's not how it works. Just because someone's on their knees, doesn't mean they're praying.
posted by me & my monkey at 11:45 AM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

Todd Palin / Debbie Richter/ SEX!!!/Adultery/whisper/gossip/snicker/some-one-who-once-met-her-third-cousin-says
Disproved as of today, at the expense of some poor peripheral fucks privacy, because people who aren't voting for her anyway have this weird 'right to know'.
as these smears and rumors are squashed, I hope people here will point them out. It must be hell to have 100 million people with an agenda combing thru every aspect of one's life and tossing out nebulous, fanciful innuendo.
posted by dawson at 11:45 AM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

people, he said.
posted by dawson at 11:48 AM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

If anyone else wishes to join the "konolia 4 Obama" pledge at this late point, simply visit barackobama.com and give $150. Remember to put "for konolia" in the little message box. If the Obama folks see that in 4 or 5 donations, they'll be delightfully puzzled. I'd appreciate it if you'd let me know, though, so I can add to the tally (via Mefi Mail).

I would also request that you please stop this. It's against the whole spirit of civil discourse, trying to bully another site member into not posting. It's a shame to the site.

Moreover, not only does konolia have every right to post without people counting how many, but since she is one of the very few people in this thread who is giving an insight into what Palin supporters value and think, I think her posts are also more valuable to this discussion that just about any other individual member's, including my own.
posted by jb at 12:00 PM on September 6, 2008 [9 favorites]

Is the home schooling thing confirmed?

Bristol Palin was a student at an Anchorage high school last year until she was absent for 5 - 8 months (reportedly due to mononucleosis).

"Checking with the Anchorage High School that Bristol Palin attended, reporters were given word that her family had taken Bristol out of school due to contracting infectious mononucleosis. The amount of time Bristol was absent shifts from five to eight months."

Regarding homeschooling, I wonder if she was/is being "tutored" (a fancy-schmancy elitist term that is best described as "homeschooling").
posted by ericb at 12:02 PM on September 6, 2008

as these smears and rumors are squashed, I hope people here will point them out

One down, 4,258 to go!
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:22 PM on September 6, 2008

A pro-Palin blog post forwarded to me by some of my right-wing family members (with a note, "This is a no nonsense lady"): Sarah Palin, a friend of mine.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 12:24 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

Just for the record, I contributed $100 to Obama because of the Palin.
posted by Mental Wimp at 12:33 PM on September 6, 2008 [4 favorites]

Disproved as of today, at the expense of some poor peripheral fucks privacy, because people who aren't voting for her anyway have this weird 'right to know'.

People who aren't voting for her do have a "right to know." The Republicans derailed 8 years of Clinton-era peace and prosperity, because of their "right to know" about an interoffice blow job. If a bunch of nosey tabloid reporters and snotty, left-wing bloggers from Daily Kos is what's necessary to keep this malcompetent theocratic mediocrity from insinuating herself into a heartbeat away from the presidency, then I say bring on the tabloids and Daily Kos!

There was a bumper sticker in the 1980s that said "Nuke A Gay Whale for Christ!" Someday should tell Sarah Palin that was satire, not a serious attempt at a presidential platform.
posted by jonp72 at 12:35 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

This is what Dominionists say about Palin, fff.
posted by dw at 11:11 PM on September 5 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I was trying real hard NOT to link to that crowd...they scare me.
posted by konolia at 12:37 PM on September 6, 2008

as these ~~smears~~ scandals and ~~rumors~~ missteps are squashed, I hope people here will point them out

One down, 4,258 to go!

At this rate, Palin could have her own scroll-poster of blunders, courtesy of Huffington, who compiled a "wall of shame" listing for Prez #43.

She's on track to top the quantity of Bush admin's crimes & misdemeanors and she hasn't even taken office yet.

Raising my hand among those who've contributed to Obama's campaign as a first-time-ever donor as of 9/4/O8
posted by skyper at 12:40 PM on September 6, 2008 [4 favorites]

Re homeschooling high school -many home schoolers are either into independent study, video/computer study, or taking particular classes (for example, chemistry) outside-our local community college lets them take classes there.

At that age a parent can simply fill a supervisory role depending on the course and mode of study.
posted by konolia at 12:41 PM on September 6, 2008

Disproved as of today

Thanks for that link. It may not be quite as simple as you say, though. There is a raging controversy in Alaska about Sarah Palin vindictively firing a man who was dating Scott Richter's ex-wife Debbie, and the Richters do own property together with the Palins. (as in this link that FFF provided.) I'm frankly relieved that there isn't some weird cuckoldry angle, but that doesn't mean Richter's motives in trying to seal his divorce records were pure as the driven snow.

hint with the right code words ("temper") and innuendo that he's crazy

Unless temper is the code-word for the fact that by all accounts he really does have a raging temper and acts rashly, which might be a problem if say Russia sends troops to Georgia during a McCain presidency.
posted by msalt at 12:42 PM on September 6, 2008 [3 favorites]

By Odin's crows, what a thread!

Some observations:

- This thread has provided / is providing links to and analysis of all the major Palin followup stories that have surfaced since the nomination. Generally speaking I am noting a 48-hour lag on the stories. By that metric, Monday should bring a wealth of detail regarding divorce histrionics and the eBay plane thing. I know Matt is not a newsfilter proponent but this is clear evidence that MeFi can provide this function quite effectively.

- That said, this thread is overly echo chambery for my tastes. Rather than attempting to understand how it is that Gov. Palin might constitute an appealing and strategically crafty choice, the majority of Palin-related observations in the thread have been of the HURF DURF BIBLETHUMPER orientation. This, as I understand it, is a structural consequence of newsfilter threads.

Here are some observations that I have not seen in this thread regarding the latter:

1. Firing a local police chief and an abusive state trooper, even in violation of governance procedures, is easily seen as evidence of straight-arrow gordian-knot cutting, and the sort of characteristic one might desire in an enforcement exec tasked with cutting the throats of the corrupt evildoers who wrecked our glorious invasion of Iraq. Where did that planeload of cash go, anyway?

2. Did McCain pick Palin after extensive investigations? Hell no. He's a fighter pilot, for god's sake, and he'll work with her to make the government a nimble and responsive tactical device.

3. What on earth is wrong or scary about nominating someone with a powerful commitment to religious faith to a highly-placed elected office? On the other hand, how is it possible that anyone could ever vote for someone without a strong faith?

I would note that I do not subscribe to the viewpoints I'm attempting to inhabit here. I would further note that I DO NOT think you have to be a slack-jawed sheep to subscribe to these positions. You DO have to have a different set of values than I do, and that's the fundamental political divide in this country.
posted by mwhybark at 1:05 PM on September 6, 2008 [5 favorites]

Here's some info about the relationship of Sarah Palin's churches to a theological movement called the Third Wave:

Part One: History and Theology of the Third Wave

Part Two: Palin's Churches and The Third Wave
posted by jonp72 at 1:08 PM on September 6, 2008

I don't care if Richter and her husband are under contract to Palin as slaves. That is private adult behaviour that is of no concern to anyone. I didn't care if Clinton was getting blow jobs. This kind of thing is only the concern of their spouses and anyone else they choose to inform.

There is a lot of solid crap we can get her on without trying to get into her bedroom. Because what she has done outside of the bedroom will affect all of us a lot more than anything she's ever done in one if she gets elected (for some value of "Diebold").
posted by QIbHom at 1:19 PM on September 6, 2008

I added to the MeFi Wiki an entry for the Longest Threads. If someone has access to the info dump and could add to it, that'd be swell; or memail me so I can. For instance: not sure if the Ski Taos thread is really the longest AskMe or not. Or what were the longest Metalk threads before 9622v.2. I included cortex's interesting graphs as well.
posted by yeti at 1:19 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

More graph fun: here's a pie chart of contributions to this thread by userid. Usernames would obviously make it more readable, but I'm not convinced this is even that interesting a view into the thread.

But a half hour hacking together the code to autogenerate it means I'm going to at least link it here.
posted by cortex at 1:25 PM on September 6, 2008 [2 favorites]

My concern with the Republican/Conservative thrust over the last couple of decades is that the acceptability of bad official behavior has been increased by:

1. Building an alternative source of "information" to the formerly independent sources through funding of right-wing "think tanks" that issue ideologically slanted "research" and policy papers.

2. Building of alternative sources of "news" that are ideologically slanted, but that have all the trappings of news.

3. The selection of individuals as candidates like Sarah Palin (Nixon, Reagan, Bush I&II) who are willing to do really bad things in office but are ideologically pure.

4. Generating rabid and loud defense of those individuals' bad behavior using the tools in 1 & 2 to get and maintain them in power.

The net result is to make bad behavior acceptable, with a slippery-slope effect such that Sarah Palin's behavior in office is seen as no big deal to those that support her. In fact, they can claim indignation that such petty complaints are even lodged.
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:27 PM on September 6, 2008 [4 favorites]

mwhybark, she fired the police chief because she intimidated her. That has been linked to several times upthread. Also, she didn't fire the abusive state trooper, she fired his boss because he wouldn't fire him. Wooten is still a trooper.
posted by QIbHom at 1:27 PM on September 6, 2008

I'm real familiar with a lot of those names mentioned re Third Wave-and some of the speakers mentioned I have heard personally-as in they have spoken in my church. I know all about spiritual mapping, etc. etc.

NONE of any of that has anything to do with dominionism, and none of it has anything to do with the ballot box. It has quite a LOT to do with prayer.

If any of y'all are curious about any of that, memail me, but I can assure you it has little or nothing to do with politics, or more specifically. the subject of this thread. The only reason I have any political knowledge is my husband has always been involved-but trust me (and thank God) not in the ways the Dominionists would like to be. He's just a regular Republican that happens to be a Christian.
posted by konolia at 1:34 PM on September 6, 2008

Interesting stuff!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:35 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

(that was re: Cortex's graph; thread is still moving fast!)
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:36 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

And, brothers and sisters, we will hit 4K!
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:40 PM on September 6, 2008

Unless temper is the code-word for the fact that by all accounts he really does have a raging temper and acts rashly, which might be a problem if say Russia sends troops to Georgia during a McCain presidency.

Weren't Bill and Hillary famous for having raging tempers in the White House?
posted by konolia at 1:41 PM on September 6, 2008

The Economist: The woman from nowhere "John McCain’s choice of running-mate raises serious questions about his judgment."

His problem is reaching out to swing voters at a time when the number of self-identified Republicans is up to ten points lower than the number of self-identified Democrats. Mr McCain needs to attract roughly 55% of independents and 15% of Democrats to win the election. But it is hard to see how a woman who supports the teaching of creationism rather than contraception, and who is soon to become a 44-year-old grandmother, helps him with soccer moms in the Philadelphia suburbs.
...
Inexperienced and Bush-level incurious. She has no record of interest in foreign policy, let alone expertise. She once told an Alaskan magazine: “I’ve been so focused on state government; I haven’t really focused much on the war in Iraq.” She obtained an American passport only last summer to visit Alaskan troops in Germany and Kuwait. This not only blunts Mr McCain’s most powerful criticism of Mr Obama. It also raises serious questions about the way he makes decisions.

posted by kirkaracha at 1:44 PM on September 6, 2008

Weren't Bill and Hillary famous for having raging tempers in the White House?

First I've heard that. If it is true, it falls into what consenting adults do in private, not into public behaviour. In other words, none of my business nor yours.

The concerns about McCain are about his temper affecting his judgment as he does his job. Frankly, it smells like a smear to me. He's been irrational enough for long enough that I don't think temper explains it.
posted by QIbHom at 1:52 PM on September 6, 2008

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say Barracuda still rocks after 30 years, perfect for driving with the dial turned to 11. Quintessentially simple guitar riff. If only the Ramones had covered it and cut it down to 2:30 or so.
posted by Rumple at 1:56 PM on September 6, 2008 [2 favorites]

this thread is overly echo chambery

It probably is, but in the same way a university is. Anybody can join this site. The moderation and the operation of the site follows logic, not anything else really. Logic, intelligence, and sound decision making. The sharing of information. Matt/Jessamyn/Cortex explain decisions and they are up for full-on discussion and examination. In addition to that openness and explanation they provide for any decision, the record of those decisions remains, so that they hold themselves accountable for previous decisions and it's all on display for us.

So which of the two major parties would you ascribe these same values to, even if just partially? Which of those two had someone recently say "it's not about the issues, it's about personalities"? Essentially saying "forget about the facts, logic and democracy, just look at how people look or something, and then vote." Which party has someone who led the charge for transparency, released tax records, plans an open government that can easily be accessed with a computer (and the person actually knows how to use a computer), supports net neutrality, and so forth.

So then it's no surprise that people who value those things will gather on this site, since the moderation is of that nature, and pretty ideal, I'd say. It's also supposed to be the way America works.

That said, after reading a comment upthread linking to an askme where people explained why they or people they know (and respect) voted for Bush back in 2000, I went out into my community.

I met a guy who was working on his yard. He actually greeted me as I'd walked past him quietly, said how are you, and asked me what I was doing. I told him I was volunteering for Barack, and getting people registered to vote, etc. He smiled and kept working and as I walked away he said he was already registered, but if I wanted to argue "about it", we could. So I smiled and circled back and talked to him.

He said "you know, I support the other guy" and he proceeded to talk about how we needed to shore up the borders and how he thought Barack would mean bigger government. After having read that AskMe, I just listened to him intently. He talked about how people were lazy and said he had a 24-year-old inside (he pointed toward his house) who didn't have a job and should be out there getting one. He mentioned how he'd had an injury, and had to use social programs for 10 years. He said he was grateful but felt awful while he was taking the money.

I wanted to interject so badly. I wanted to call him on the contradictions he revealed. He'd said he was offended as an American when he saw Spanish-language material in stores and such, while making it a point to tell me he was Puerto-Rican. He told me a lot of reasons why he felt he would vote McCain, almost all of them centered around his perceived view of taxation and personal agency. I countered a few of his points, but by the time I started interjecting I think he felt listened to enough that it was more like talking to a friend, and he began to back down a bit and said that if Barack got elected, he would do all he could to support him, and that the problem was leaders who get into office and then aren't held accountable to the people.

Unsurprisingly, Palin came up. He flat out acknowledged that she was a stunt pick, just to try to energize the base. I brought up generalities from this thread then stressed what has to annoy me more than anything, which is that she will not talk to the press. He acknowledged that wasn't honorable. He said he thought it would be a good election, and that whoever got in would be because god wanted it that way, and that we should support whoever it was, but also hold them accountable to us - the people.

He and I disagreed, but he seemed like a decent fellow. He had several children of varying ages, one of whom he said was newly pregnant and needing social services. He spoke of the laziness thing and his perception of "big government", but he also acknowledged the people he seemed to have displeasure for would surely have a renewed sense of agency and opportunity if Barack was elected.

Reading metafilter (and askme) made me a better person, I think. I would have been a lot more argumentative, and even today I certainly wasn't a passive observer or just a bystander as he railed on me or something, but I think I had a conversation. A discussion. As opposed to a shouting match or some encounter where I wrote him off as a freak. Now I don't know if 15 minutes more would have exposed some dealbreakers or conversely made us bff, but I bet he'll remember me for a while, and if I run into the guy at the store, I bet we'll both be equally inclined to shake hands again.

Thanks to people for commenting here and linking that other thread, making suggestions and providing information and analysis. If anybody feels like they're getting too much of the same (even if correct, in my view) opinion, go volunteer for the Obama campaign, and go meet people in and around your neighborhood. Tell them your story, and listen to theirs too.
posted by cashman at 2:03 PM on September 6, 2008 [34 favorites]

It probably is, but in the same way a university is. Anybody can join this site. The moderation and the operation of the site follows logic, not anything else really. Logic, intelligence, and sound decision making.

Sorry, but that's total bullshit. The institutional culture of Metafilter is as important as "logic, intelligence, and sound decision making." And it is an institutional culture that, for better or worse, is actively hostile to conservatives. Only someone blinded by partisanship can fail to observe what happens whenever a conservative viewpoint is articulated here. 90% of the time, the response is "OMG TROLL FUCK OFF!" or "You're just repeating talking points, so you're not worth engaging with! CONSERVAZOMBIE LOL!" (many examples of the latter can be found in this thread). To pretend like your party is the one with a monopoly on logic, intelligence, and sound decision making is petty, willful ignorance.

NONE of any of that has anything to do with dominionism, and none of it has anything to do with the ballot box. It has quite a LOT to do with prayer.

No, konolia, what you're missing is that if you disagree with someone, it's totally okay to brand them as an extremist in the absence of any evidence. Conservatives are Nazis! Read this Guardian article about how Bush is a fascist, man! All religious people are insane theocrats! It's what they call "logic and intelligence" around here. Get with the program.

(I am not a conservative. I am an anarchist. But I hate partisan assholes of any stripe.)
posted by nasreddin at 2:21 PM on September 6, 2008 [4 favorites]

you’ve inspired in me a hate for assholes, too
posted by found missing at 2:27 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

90% of the time, the response is "OMG TROLL FUCK OFF!" or "You're just repeating talking points, so you're not worth engaging with! CONSERVAZOMBIE LOL!" (many examples of the latter can be found in this thread).

90%? Really?
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:30 PM on September 6, 2008

Konolia said: "We might not believe in premarital sex, but we don't treat any resulting children as a punishment... Do you know what the Bible considers judgement in the area of sexuality? Barrenness."

fff linked: "Just explain how you sell the unintended pregnancy of a 17-yr old as "family values" in the same breath that you admit your opposition to sex education..."

Anybody else notice the growing overt and tacit Republican fineness with and fondness for underage and unwed pregnancy? I think the RNC showboating of Bristol and her baby daddy is a good example of this.

This destigmatization of unwed/underage breeding is a direct consequence of their pro-life and anti-birth control positions. Girls without birth control are girls that become mommies. And mommies who feel ashamed, are mommies who have abortions. So the new Republican attitude is that "unmarried teenage sex is a sin ... except it's also God's Greatest Blessing!" And at the same time liberals (who are pro-choice and support birth control education) are scapegoated for the co-occurring decades rise in illegitimacy since Roe v Wade:

...the pro-life movement has come to terms with the sexual revolution. So long as unwed parenthood is considered disgraceful, many unwed mothers will choose abortion to escape disgrace. And so, step by step, the pro-life movement has evolved to an accepting -- even welcoming -- attitude toward pregnancy outside marriage...

As the stigma attached to unwed motherhood has diminished, the United States has seen both a huge increase in the proportion of babies born out of wedlock -- now reaching almost 37% --and a striking decline in the incidence of abortions.

posted by dgaicun at 2:44 PM on September 6, 2008 [6 favorites]

You have to be joking. Look at the number of people who defended dios, who defended ParisParamus, who defended Steve@Lynnwood, who defended bunnyfire and who continue to do so even now that she has a different name.

Some people are hostile, yes, but others will make excuses for the airing of the most vile ideas and viewpoints. Expecting that people who say things that mark them as assholes will simply be ignored or even welcomed is ridiculous. As long as right-wing assholes continue to post, there will be people who welcome them and people who call them on their shit.
posted by Pope Guilty at 2:47 PM on September 6, 2008 [3 favorites]

On thread stats: I've been running them with the data dumps. I'll talk to cortex and see if we can combine efforts There are some interesting things I've already seen number-wise that will require the new data dump numbers to pull out.
posted by dw at 2:48 PM on September 6, 2008

The numbers on the Longest Threads wiki page are wrong; they look like they're pulled from the datadump, which includes deleted comments.
posted by dw at 2:55 PM on September 6, 2008

Anybody else notice the growing overt and tacit Republican fineness with and fondness for underage and unwed pregnancy? I think the RNC showboating of Bristol and her baby daddy is a good example of this.

I guess you COULD frame it that way... OR you could realize that for years and years and years people who got pregnant out of wedlock got married, and we realized it was better to encourage people to do the right thing instead of point fingers and be judgemental jerks.

Those that read carefully know that Ronald and Nancy Reagan got married and then had Patty....well, a little soon. For that matter, I was the product of people who got married because I was on the way.

I see nothing wrong with asserting that premarital sex is a sin. But it's a sin whether or not a pregnancy occurs. The act of being pregnant in itself is not a sin. And babies are valuable regardless of the timing of conception.

I think it would have been pretty hypocritical to hide Bristol and her guy "under a rock" because, face it, we all know she's pregnant, we all know he's the dad, but meanwhile he is now also the fiance. Therefore he is part of their family and his place is on that stage.
posted by konolia at 3:05 PM on September 6, 2008

Interesting comment, cashman.
posted by ersatz at 3:17 PM on September 6, 2008

4000? Si se puede!
posted by konolia at 3:22 PM on September 6, 2008

Is it still "the right thing to do" even if the kids involved don't love each other? If the boyfriend was abusive? Heck, what if he date raped her?

The basis for marriage should never be pregnancy.
posted by agregoli at 3:27 PM on September 6, 2008 [7 favorites]

Ta-da!
posted by konolia at 3:28 PM on September 6, 2008

Agregoli, I agree that not always is marriage the wise thing-but in many cases it IS.
posted by konolia at 3:30 PM on September 6, 2008

I'm going to have to find something else to do with my life when this Palin drama dies down.
posted by lunit at 3:46 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

Rachel Maddow asks a question: is there no penalty for lying anymore?
posted by Bookhouse at 3:47 PM on September 6, 2008 [4 favorites]

But by encouraging it in all cases, you doom many people to extremely unhappy lives. That's all. Any policy that says it's the best in all cases, for all lives, is not a good one.
posted by agregoli at 3:47 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

(I realize you come from a position that if only everyone would follow what you consider to be god's path, that everything would come up roses. But not everyone wants to, or agrees with the premise, so advocating one way as truth and perfection isn't going to work. I understand your right to advocate and accept it for your life and YOUR truth, but statements about how "this" IS the way and "that's" a SIN and everyone agrees this is the right way...well, they rankle a bit. The world is a diverse place, and your truth, from where I'm standing, doesn't have any more power than anyone else's.)
posted by agregoli at 3:53 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

Sean at fivethirtyeight.com touches on the theme that lying doesn't matter anymore in this post. He uses a nifty analogy to make his point that its not worth the time to point out lies any more. Be sure to watch the awesome Joe Biden speech he links to.
posted by Bookhouse at 4:01 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

Ugh, 3908 comments and no end in sight.

So who's up for some polar bear hunting?
posted by sour cream at 4:26 PM on September 6, 2008

It's probably a bad idea to compare yourself to a pitbull if you're running for office as pitbulls are known as a breed for a tendency to run giant deficits, destroy the banking system and to shit on the rug.
posted by drezdn at 4:30 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

sour cream, can we eat the bear? Or, I guess the skin would make a nifty throw. As long as we utilize the carcass, sure!
posted by dawson at 4:33 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

Anybody else notice the growing overt and tacit Republican fineness with and fondness for underage and unwed pregnancy? I think the RNC showboating of Bristol and her baby daddy is a good example of this.

As far back as 1999, the culturally conservative think tank, the Institute for American Values, put out a report by Maggie Gallagher called The Age of Unwed Mothers: Is Teen Pregnancy the Problem?, which argued that teenage pregnancy isn't the real problem. It's all the unmarried pregnant teenagers that's the problem, according to this view. According to this logic, the teenage pregnancy problem wouldn't be a problem if teenage pregnancy were limited to married pregnant teenagers. So the push to get Levi and Bristol hitched is certainly consistent with what some culturally conservative think tanks have been promoting since the end of the Clinton Administration.
posted by jonp72 at 4:41 PM on September 6, 2008

My dad turns 80 in a few days and McCain and Palin just make them both so angry.

Make sure they fill out Absentee Ballots early - and FILL OUT THEIR OWN ABSENTEE BALLOTS. A long running GOP methodology is to get the 'support' of Nursing Home residents unable to make decisions for themselves. It has been a much more effective - and harder to catch - method of Election Fraud than the old Democratic "graveyard electioneering" trope and apparently more widespread and more sophisticated every election. My more recent info is third-hand, but I got to look a little behind the curtain at Re-Elect Nixon '72... my mother was a life-long GOP Woman Activist and even though I was not old enough to vote, I was old enough to "be volunteered" to do a few hours doing Telemarketing while lowering my voice to sound more mature. And I backed away from a trip to an "old folks home" with a stack of pre-filled absentee ballots. I lost my most reliable source of GOP dirt when my mother passed away the day Reagan was re-elected in '84. (She got her absentee vote in but I missed going to the polls myself.) She was proud back then of her party's ability to get "more votes per voter" in every way possible.
posted by wendell at 4:41 PM on September 6, 2008 [2 favorites]

is there no penalty for lying anymore?

After almost 8 years of the Bush/Cheney Administration and at least 5 years of "Surely this..." outrages, the answer is obvious. NONE WHATSOEVER.
posted by wendell at 4:45 PM on September 6, 2008

I think it would have been pretty hypocritical to hide Bristol and her guy "under a rock" because, face it, we all know she's pregnant, we all know he's the dad, but meanwhile he is now also the fiance. Therefore he is part of their family and his place is on that stage.

We all know she's pregnant because the Palins told us this on Monday in the form of a press release. Had they not done that there may have been rumors of the kid's pregnancy but they could have answered those with a firm "leave the kids out of it" rebuttal. No one said Bristol looked pregnant last week at the event in Ohio. The kids go back to Alaska and we see them again on election night watching the results and/or at the inauguration. Palin doesn't have to parade her kids on stage wherever she goes. Palin used her teen daughter's pregnancy to kill the rumors that her infant son was actually her daughter's kid. A birth certificate could have done that. But Palin chose to use her own daughter this way to deflect the rumor -- "Bristol wasn't an unwed teen mother that I was hiding, in fact she's a teen mother now and I'm going to issue a press release!" Having the self-described "fuckin' redneck" boy meet John McCain on the tarmac at MSP and be on the stage at the RNC was not needed except it helped sell the story that the teens are getting married and all will live happily ever after. None of the other candidates seem to need to have the boyfriends/girlfriends/spouses on the stage. No, this was part of the narrative that was put together after the shit started hitting the fan.

I would have preferred had the Sarah Palin story said simply she was a hockey mom with 5 kids. I don't care what their names are or if one of them is knocked up (or that another has Down syndrome) but McCain/Palin made that part of her background because it would appeal to voters. If I wanted to know this, I'd read about it in People or wait for the movie on Lifetime. What I do care about is her qualifications and her positions on the issues which have gotten somewhat deflected by this family drama.
posted by birdherder at 4:47 PM on September 6, 2008 [6 favorites]

One way Palin differs from Spiro Agnew is that, if she gets into the VP office, the already deeply compromised U.S. Department of Justice will become even more a tool of the GOP, and she will never again have to worry about any crimes in her past.
posted by wendell at 4:49 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

If you do not allow teenage girls who accidentally become pregnant to have abortions, you are demanding either that they raise their children as single mothers or that they marry in shotgun weddings. By the numbers, neither choice is promising. Unmarried teenage moms seldom get much financial or emotional support from the fathers of their babies. They tend to drop out of high school and go on the dole, and they are prone to lives of poverty, frustration, and disorder. Only 2 percent of them make it through college by the age of 30. The Bristol Palin option doesn't promote family happiness, stability, or traditional structure, either. Of women under 18 who marry, whether because of pregnancy or not, nearly half divorce within 10 years—double the rate for those who wait until they're 25....

[T]he Republican right is prepared to overcome its objection to... [a] pregnant teenager as role model... and more as the price of an uncompromising pro-life agenda...

In today's GOP, Quayle wouldn't condemn Murphy Brown. He'd call her up to the stage and salute her for choosing life.

Whatever Happened to Family Values? - Jacob Weisberg
posted by dgaicun at 4:52 PM on September 6, 2008 [4 favorites]

Most of the pit bulls I know are sweeties who want everyone around them to be happy. They are convinced that the way to happiness is cuddling and scratching and petting.

Sarah Palin is no pit bull. I think she's more of a snapping turtle
posted by QIbHom at 4:56 PM on September 6, 2008 [3 favorites]

TERRE HAUTE, Ind. — Barack Obama made his first direct criticism of Republican vice presidential nominee Sarah Palin on Saturday, saying she pretends to oppose spending earmarks when she actually has embraced them.

Speaking to 800 people at the Wabash Valley Fairgrounds in Terre Haute, Ind., the Democratic presidential nominee ridiculed John McCain and his running mate, the Alaska governor, for describing themselves as agents of change at this week's GOP convention.

"Don't be fooled," Obama told the crowd surrounding him in a large barn. "John McCain's party, with the help of John McCain, has been in charge" for nearly eight years.

"I know the governor of Alaska has been saying she's change, and that's great," Obama said. "She's a skillful politician. But, you know, when you've been taking all these earmarks when it's convenient, and then suddenly you're the champion anti-earmark person, that's not change. Come on! I mean, words mean something, you can't just make stuff up."

I hope he is right about that last bit but history suggests otherwise.
posted by Rumple at 4:59 PM on September 6, 2008 [3 favorites]

$25.00 to Obama from me.

Konolia: I don't agree with hardly any of your views, but my hat is off to you, I think you have taken a lot of...grief...in this thread and you I haven't seen you retaliate with personal attacks. I would've been all telling everybody where to go and having to go away from metafilter for a couple days.

Hope you made it through Hanna okay.
posted by marxchivist at 5:00 PM on September 6, 2008 [4 favorites]

The basis for marriage should never be pregnancy.

But to believe that would just open the door for same-sex marriage. I know that by the konolia standard, my marriage to the "Crazy Ex" was not really legitimate because we never intended to have children (in her more lucid times, she admitted she could not be a fit mother, and my failure as her caretaker when she went downhill shows I wouldn't have been so hot as a father). In fact, she was always on The Pill (which also helped some of her hormonal imbalances, according to her doctor) and if she had somehow become pregnant, we agreed in advance an abortion would be necessary. I remain thankful that neither of our families were like the Palins.
posted by wendell at 5:00 PM on September 6, 2008

Sarah Palin is no pit bull. I think she's more of a snapping turtle

Well, she believes in snapping turtles all the way down.
posted by Rumple at 5:07 PM on September 6, 2008 [2 favorites]

I was inspired by the folks here (uh, and reality) to make donations to Obama today for me and my husband--our first as well. We've had our ups and downs around here, but this thread has been solid as far as hashing out info and getting different angles. Thanks to ericb for solid links and to fourcheesemac for reminding me to get out the wallet.

And I suppose to Palin for reminding us not to lose vigilance.
posted by troybob at 5:18 PM on September 6, 2008 [3 favorites]

I think you have taken a lot of...grief...in this thread and you I haven't seen you retaliate with personal attacks.

Not sure that's cause for kudos. Although she's a much earlier enrollee in MeFi than I am, I am very familiar with her and her oeuvre on the Blue. She addresses what she wants to ignores what she doesn't, uses her elder status and downhome folksiness to take the edge off of some of her more offensive viewpoints, and sidesteps anything that actually challenges her deeply held belief structure. So basically, she insidiously gets credit for not lashing out, and that somehow gives her a pass on her narrow-minded worldview.

She's essentially why these motherfucking Republicans keep getting elected, despite being wrong on almost everything.
posted by psmealey at 5:30 PM on September 6, 2008 [15 favorites]

so... much... to... catch... up... on.... here....
(Glad I'm only allocating an hour to comments in this thread. Wondering if a certain user is yet regretting the mefimail sent yesterday telling me my contributions had been getting better)

...how is it possible that anyone could ever vote for someone without a strong faith?

Now that's one of the scariest things I've seen written in this entire thread, but sadly true. My single biggest problem with Senator Obama is his rhetoric on Faith-Based Stuff. I may be one of the few people who actually hope that is just cynical rhetoric from someone who realizes that way too many people in America can't get through their lives without an all-powerful God ready to tip the scales in their favor to make up for the problems in their lives. The infamous "bitter White people" quote was probably the truest thing I ever heard him say but obviously the worst thing to say politically. And I suspect the biggest thing he learned from years of membership in that Black Church with the Extremist Reverend is that it applies equally, if not more so, to Blacks. Presidents have long had to use Religion to get the American masses to support their actions, some good, some bad, some horrendous. If it gets the right kind of thing done, I reluctantly accept the Faith Thing. But I so wish that enough of the American People will mature enough and accept personal responsibility enough to not need it. But unless my medical conditions change radically enough to grant me a lot more years alive, I won't see it. I'm just glad I'm not wasting my time and energy praying for it.
posted by wendell at 5:36 PM on September 6, 2008 [4 favorites]

Hope you made it through Hanna okay

Just a lot of rain-we've had summer storms that were worse.

know that by the konolia standard, my marriage to the "Crazy Ex" was not really legitimate because we never intended to have children

Wendell, I love you, man, but please don't put words in my mouth. That is NOT true.

She's essentially why these *expletive deleted *Republicans keep getting elected, despite being different from me on almost everything.

Fixed that for you.

Look, I know many of you truly do believe that your Democratic beliefs are The Only Rational Way To See Things....but there are other points of view out there. People can disagree. I hold my beliefs as strong if not stronger than you do yours. And I am by far not the only one who holds these views.

Except, admittedly, HERE.

But HERE is not the only place there is.
posted by konolia at 5:46 PM on September 6, 2008

I am (honestly) thrilled that some are are making first time contributions to Obama here. As someone who never donated before, but who voted Reagan in '83, was inspired to give to Obama, oh a year ago...may I ask: are you giving now only because of Sarah Palin? Would you have not given otherwise (say if it were? Why did ypu not give till less than 2 months before the election?
I, and if I know my heart, I and not trying to be snide or condescending, I really, before Molech, am intrigued as to the why. The innuendo? The fear? The disgust? Color me perplexed.
posted by dawson at 5:50 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

Third Wave refers primarily to the modern (1978-present) charismatic movement -- Wimber, Wagner, Rodney Howard Brown, The Toronto Blessing.

None of these guys have a thing to do with Dominionism. Maybe they read their Schaeffer when they were younger, but that's about it.

I think part of the issue is how you define "dominionism." If by "dominionist," you're referring to people who want to replace the penal code with the book of Leviticus, then I don't think the term applies to Palin's church. However, if you use the term "dominionist" in a broader sense to the ideology that Christians must exercise "dominion" over heretics and non-believers by taking over control of the government (an ideology which would include the works of Francis Schaeffer), then I think that the term could apply to the churches that Palin has belonged to.

And yes, I am quite aware that there are quite a few fundamentalists and dominionist theologians who have had problems with pentecostals and charismatics. The evangelist G. Campbell Morgan's assessment of pentecostals as "the last vomit of Satan" is certainly the most colorful comment I've heard in this vein. On the other hand, pentecostals and charismatics have been quite willing to borrow fundamentalist and dominionist ideas for their own theology. The categorical distinctions among different varieties of conservative Protestantism aren't as clear-cut as they used to be, especially when you consider some of the cross-denominational and post-denominational movements that Sarah Palin has been a part of.
posted by jonp72 at 5:55 PM on September 6, 2008

forgive the drunken typing, alas I am not into libations as of yet, but babysitting my goddaughter, which is more...fun.
posted by dawson at 5:58 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

dawson, I think Palin's views, values and practices have served as a stark reminder for many people of the stakes of this election. She encapsulates and viscerally highlights what many people fear most about about a continuation Republican control of the levers of government.
posted by NortonDC at 6:02 PM on September 6, 2008 [8 favorites]

may I ask: are you giving now only because of Sarah Palin? Would you have not given otherwise (say if it were? Why did ypu not give till less than 2 months before the election?

It was the Republican convention got me to get out my credit card, but Palin was the icing on the cake. I didn't give to any candidate from president on down to go catcher before this. But I wanted to do something this time. I'm gravely concerned McCain's hail mary stunt will make a difference in the swing states so if the money I gave the campaign helps buy a few more lawn signs or helps with community organizing efforts, I'll be happy. Ohio and a few other states are going to go down to the wire so giving now seems like a best time.

After Obama's speech in Denver I was moved and it is possible had Palin not been chosen but someone else that didn't fire up "the base" I probably wouldn't have felt the need. Then again, that complete douchebag Giuliani and McCain's speeches might have let had make the plunge.
posted by birdherder at 6:04 PM on September 6, 2008

NortonDC, that is a reasonable and understandable answer, thank you.
posted by dawson at 6:07 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

And I am by far not the only one who holds these views.

Doesn't make you any less wrong.

Sorry, I'm not some equivocatin' liberal moral relatavist. All views are not equally valid. Your views are wrong, and immoral, despite your sanctimonious pose on the "sanctity of life". Fuck you. You think you're protecting the lives of the innocent, the fetuses, but you're enabling a murderous and evil foreign policy that will only do the bidding of the rich and powerful.

"Small town values" is exactly what keeps the country I love passionately, the United States of America, mired in regressive, divisive social policy, and gives people comfort in thinking dark, dark thoughts about people they don't know. It is what gave us Jim Crow, lynchings, Matthew Shepherd, James Byrd, busing riots. Pluralism, multi-culturalism is the only way we're all going to SURVIVE what comes next. Yeah, I realize that's detestable to those that want to stick to some idyllic Norman Rockwell view, but fuck them. That time never really existed anyway. Get over it. Your day is over.
posted by psmealey at 6:12 PM on September 6, 2008 [4 favorites]

I'll second marxchivist and hope konolia keeps up the power of her example -- putting her thoughts out there where if unpopular are at least consistent with her beliefs IMO -- rather than flaunting the example of her power. It's easy to get riled up and peevish (snapping turtles?); but it takes guts to come back again and re-articulate what one is trying to express without adopting the same ad hominem peevishness received. I'm for the spirit of dialogue, and other views don't threaten me.

/preach
still giggling about the username "marx...ist" of the most recent person defending a conservative's voice on this thread.

posted by skyper at 6:15 PM on September 6, 2008

I'm for the spirit of dialogue, and other views don't threaten me.

And that, my friends, is why nothing ever changes. Clear thinking liberals think that nothing is at stake. It's "only ideas", right?

The right gets more primal, more base, more insidious and more divisive, and yet, we lefties think we'll win with reason, articulation, high-minded ideals and friendly debate.

Fuck that noise. Anger, coded racism, accusations of treason have destroyed the legitimate left in this country. It's up to you to decide if that's okay with you, or when someone like Sarah Palin is introduced as a legitimate political force (after having done little in her life, and embodying extremist viewpoints) you stand back and accept it, you're every bit the problem.
posted by psmealey at 6:22 PM on September 6, 2008 [7 favorites]

If I were American, Sarah Palin would have inspired me to give money to Obama, even if I had to do it on credit. If your country elects that woman, where everything I have seen indicates that she is a lying, hypocritical, barely educated moron who stands against virtually every aspect of civilisation that I find important, whose very selection is a demonstration of the double standards applied to females in every sphere, a mockery of the concepts of competence, intelligence and responsible use of power, and a blatant promise that nothing will change; well then fuck you, america. I only hope you collapse without taking the rest of the world with you.

In all seriousness, I intend to move to the states in January to take up a new job. If McCain/Palin win, I will reconsider.
posted by jacalata at 6:23 PM on September 6, 2008 [13 favorites]

Things have gotten a little too fuck-you-ish in the last little bit here. Ease off.
posted by cortex at 6:32 PM on September 6, 2008 [3 favorites]

........ For once, the postmodern theories so many of them were taught at university are a help to the rest of us. As a Christian, conservative anti-abortionist who proved her support for the Iraq War by sending her son to fight in it, Sarah Palin was 'the other' - the threatening alien presence they defined themselves against. They might have soberly examined her reputation as an opponent of political corruption to see if she was truly the reformer she claimed to be. They might have gently mocked her idiotic creationism, while carefully avoiding all discussion of the racist conspiracy theories of Barack Obama's church.

But instead of following a measured strategy, they went berserk. On the one hand, the media treated her as a sex object. The New York Times led the way in painting Palin as a glamour-puss in go-go boots you were more likely to find in an Anchorage lap-dancing club than the Alaska governor's office.

On the other, liberal journalists turned her family into an object of sexual disgust: inbred rednecks who had stumbled out of Deliverance.
posted by Rumple at 6:37 PM on September 6, 2008

There is a difference between fact and belief and/or faith.

Faith and belief mean, "Nothing can change my mind." Fact means, "still gathering data, still testing."

Anyone basing their politics on faith or belief scares me.

The snapping turtle was peevish? Dude, I was poking fun at calling herself a pit bull when they are such sweet dogs, and she isn't. You got a better animal, bring it. We got lots of cages in this zoo.
posted by QIbHom at 6:48 PM on September 6, 2008

Adding "Fuck you" to a comment is a fabulous idea.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 7:00 PM on September 6, 2008

I guess you COULD frame it that way... OR you could realize that for years and years and years people who got pregnant out of wedlock got married, and we realized it was better to encourage people to do the right thing instead of point fingers and be judgemental jerks. –konolia

I'm not a judgmental guy and I don't see a problem with supporting teen women who want to have their kids. But I'm not really sure forcing teens into marriage just because their both related to a baby is really a good thing. I mean, what if they're just incompatible people? What if the guy is a huge jerk or abusive? (Or the woman). Obviously it's better for kids two have two loving parents, but if they hate each other, is that really what they're going to get?

And furthermore, look at what Sarah Palin did: Cut state funding to help out teen mothers. As a pro-lifer, don't you think that the government should step in to help teen mothers who want to have their kids?

And finally, what about teaching kids about safe sex and contraceptives: Is that a good or bad idea? Isn't cutting down on unwanted pregnancies a good thing? I mean if you're not going to be judgmental about teens getting pregnant, why get judgmental about them having protected sex?

So who's up for some polar bear hunting? -- sour cream

Only if it's from an airplane!
posted by delmoi at 7:01 PM on September 6, 2008 [3 favorites]

still giggling about the username "marx...ist" of the most recent person defending a conservative's voice on this thread

Actually the name is combination of Marx Toys (I love to collect) and my former profession (Archivist). Although I trend to the left, I don't know enough about Karl Marx to say if I'm a Marxist.

I gave to Obama tonight (my first donation to a candidate ever) because this Sarah Palin and the ruthlessness of the Republicans scares me. I was feeling pretty confident about Obama being able to win but not so much now. Someone said a long time ago in a comment far, far away upthread something to the effect of "the Democrats keep losing presidential elections because they assume the majority of Americans aren't morons." I think there's a lot of morons in the good old USA, and McCain seems to have that vote locked up.

I'm pretty cynical about a U.S. President to change much. But with McCain in office I know we're fucked. With Obama there's a chance we might not be fucked.
posted by marxchivist at 7:04 PM on September 6, 2008

thanks for (at this point) 4 good answers. That does clear some things for me (i.e. the rationale but consistent/cerebral/cautious are the ones giving at this time).
posted by dawson at 7:05 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

"Small town values"

"The most respectful and wholesome news team finds out what small town values really mean at the RNC"(from Jon Stewart's 'The Daily Show' last night. Watch it! [video | 04:26]
posted by ericb at 7:09 PM on September 6, 2008

Weren't Bill and Hillary famous for having raging tempers in the White House?

Good point, Konolia. Bill has a well-documented temper. (Hillary, it's more rumored - she was said to have thrown a lamp in one fight, but I'm not sure that was ever verified.)

The difference though is that neither ACT rashly. In fact, both are somewhat infamous for carefully deliberating about decisions and taking too many different opinions and viewpoints into account. I like a politician who vents their anger, calms down again and carefully decides to just about any other combination. By his own account, McCain acts rashly and often regrets it (but sticks with his choice.)
posted by msalt at 7:11 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

Look, I know many of you truly do believe that your Democratic beliefs are The Only Rational Way To See Things....but there are other points of view out there...But HERE is not the only place there is.

That's exactly my point. Your point of view is no more right than the next person - because EVERY person has a right to live their life according to their own rules. There is no one-size-fits-all set of life guidelines.
posted by agregoli at 7:24 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

a report by Maggie Gallagher called The Age of Unwed Mothers: Is Teen Pregnancy the Problem?, which argued that teenage pregnancy isn't the real problem. It's all the unmarried pregnant teenagers that's the problem, according to this view.

Hilarious. I knew Maggie Galagher in high school (she went out with my best friend.) Debater, Republican, daughter of a very rich stock broker. My friend got a birth announcement in the mail from her about 9.5 months after they broke up, a very awkward moment until it became clear he wasn't implicated. They were teens then, and she certainly wasn't married to anyone.

Later, she was famous as one of the columnists taking cash payments from the Bush administration. I would give her opinion a value of -$3.00.
posted by msalt at 7:24 PM on September 6, 2008 [12 favorites]

I guess you COULD frame it that way... OR you could realize that for years and years and years people who got pregnant out of wedlock got married, and we realized it was better to encourage people to do the right thing instead of point fingers and be judgemental jerks.

Shotgun weddings were more about property damage than morals - even way back in the Old Testament.

Now I was born "a wee bit early" and it happened to work for my folks. (They wed before they knew, whatever) So, apparently, did konolia's parents.

Given the time frame, one thing sticks out. We were born during a time that American productivity and manufacturing were on the way up or at their peak. The dollar was worth more, and there was more money evenly distributed. For the most part it was economically possible for a single wage earner to have kids at home.

It was also legally difficult for a woman to strike out on her own should she want or need to divorce an abusive husband. Abortion was illegal, so she was stuck there as well. That's very different from encouraging peoople to do the right thing. That's forced servitude.

Mrs. Palin is one of those Terribly Christian© women. One who says all the right things because she's expected to, but is mean and bitter in private. One who uses the church and trappings of Christianity to appear virtuous in order to gain power.

I could hear it in her speech - the old "You're terrible and you should feel bad for thinking ill of me for saying so!" Her career path tells me she's not at all interested in the Rule of Law but is terribly infected with the Law of Rule.

And now a little bit from Karl Popper:

"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them."
posted by lysdexic at 7:26 PM on September 6, 2008 [6 favorites]

I'm for the spirit of dialogue, and other views don't threaten me.

Those views sure threaten me. Konolia seems like she might be perfectly nice in person, but if she had her way, as an openly gay man I would be a second-class citizen at best (and I'd rather not speculate on the worst.) She believes that her interpretation of the Bible is suitable as legislation. She's more concerned about the treatment of clusters of cells in a woman's body than the injustices - from economic oppression to mass killing - perpetrated by the government she supports. She wants us to be ruled by her faith, but will not allow herself to be guided by reason.

Those views threaten you too. They threaten anyone interested in their own freedom and self-preservation.
posted by me & my monkey at 7:37 PM on September 6, 2008 [9 favorites]

Has anyone seen HaloMan lately?
posted by lukemeister at 7:44 PM on September 6, 2008

Look, I know many of you truly do believe that your Democratic beliefs are The Only Rational Way To See Things....

Nobody will say that there aren't a lot of people here who are just as devoted to their party as you are to yours, konolia, but I think there are even more people here who actually believe that The Only Way To See Things is Rationally -- people who aren't afraid to examine their beliefs and even change them if confronted with compelling evidence contrary to what they thought they knew to be true. Naturally, these people have a hard time accepting things on faith, but an inquisitive mind does not necessarily preclude someone from possessing religious faith. What the people in charge of the Republican party have realized is that they can stick a wedge precisely there, and then exploit that division to gain and hold political power. Anyone who blindly subscribes to the platitudes of their chosen political party is not a particularly rational person, but I think most of the rage directed at people with your beliefs comes from that wedge which your party's leaders continue to employ. There are a hell of a lot of good things about true republicanism, real conservatism, and Christianity. But the unholy, bastardized conflation of the three, which the Republican party continues to foist on America, is a blatant affront to rationality, and the people who support it -- particularly those who believe it is their Christian duty to do so -- are beneath contempt. They are being used, they proudly align themselves against their own best interests, and they assume an attitude of piety in doing so. They can call it faith, and even feel good about their decision to do so, but when it gets right down to it, it is intellectually dishonest. And that doesn't go over very well here.
posted by Balonious Assault at 7:45 PM on September 6, 2008 [2 favorites]

HaloMan has enormous and notable restraint it seems.
posted by dawson at 7:51 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

Answer to dawson: I am flat broke right now, but I will donate to Obama with my first paycheck if I get a job before the election. I am seriously thinking of volunteering for the campaign. The Palin nomination has energized me for several reasons. She is a throwback to the ugly deceitful Carl Rove style attack. I thought McCain was better than that. By way of experience and vetting, she seems to be grossly unqualified to be president. I don't want another evangelical fundamentalist forcing her beliefs on the country. I strongly believe in the separation of church and state. She, McCain, and the Republican party want to continue screwing the poor and middle class in this country to benefit the rich, who don't pay their fair share of taxes. The Republican foreign policy mentality has been a disaster for this country and has unnecessarily made enemies around the world and alienated our friends. The Republicans have no respect for the Constitution and the Bill of Rights and have weakened and ignored them to further their sordid cynical agenda. They have manipulated the populace with fear tactics. I am sure there are more reasons, but that should be enough for anyone.
posted by Daddy-O at 7:59 PM on September 6, 2008 [2 favorites]

Daddy-O, thanks for that detailed and honest answer. That's quite eloquent and comprehensible.
posted by dawson at 8:03 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

Maybe HaloMan's computer can't handle the thread?
posted by QIbHom at 8:08 PM on September 6, 2008

Actually, I don't think this is a thread anymore. It is either a lifestyle or a cult. I'm not sure which.
posted by QIbHom at 8:11 PM on September 6, 2008 [7 favorites]

know that by the konolia standard, my marriage to the "Crazy Ex" was not really legitimate because we never intended to have children

Wendell, I love you, man, but please don't put words in my mouth. That is NOT true.

I'm sorry, I honestly got the impression that you considered Family Building the single most important purpose of marriage. And my ex's and my mutual pre-emptive decision to abort would be far beyond what you could accept.

So it seemed the only reason you'd be okay with people like me not procreating would be because there would be less children being raised to be sinners (the future belongs to those who "be fruitful and multiply").

Or maybe you just agree with me that I wouldn't be a good father.
posted by wendell at 8:25 PM on September 6, 2008

Daddy-O, loved that.

As noted above, I am not in agreement with the sample opinions and interpretations I offered above. I posted them because I think it's necessary to try to inhabit the viewpoint of one's political opponent in order to best defeat it. I think we would be well served in the exercise of trying to get inside the heads of our neighbors, whether modeled, as I presented, or via actual social contact, as presented above in another contact.
posted by mwhybark at 8:38 PM on September 6, 2008

Jesus H. Christ. You know what I'm sick of?

Let's clear some myths up.

First. There is no "conservative voice" in this thread. Okay. I doubt very much the person(s) in question, who by name call them selves conservative, could articulate what Conservative Political Philosophy is without looking it up. And if they did and had any shred of intellectual honest they would see precious little of that philosophy at work in the Bush administration and not much applied to John McCains selection of Sarah Palin. What we have is the voice of fanatical religious dogma mixed with a stew of dissonant demagogaery.

Barry Goldwater would be rolling in his grave.

It's disgusting the back patting we get in here just because one or two people hang into the thread regurgitating their idiotic third-hand uninformed opinions and blithely and repeated ignore every single fact presented to them. Who only respond with "my husband's neighbors personal trainer says", or worse, essentially "god says so." Like that is a logical rhetorical position to formulate life and death polices upon?

Heaven forbid we get an echo chamber OF THE FUCKING FACTS. It would be awesome if somebody stuck around to interject that the sky is green. Heroic, even.

(and no I'm not speaking of the putrid prurient background noise derails about some bullshit baby/sex scandals that don't matter.)

Second. I never accused the "Average Republican of being more stupid or dishonest that the average liberal. I didn't. I said anybody the "voted for Bush in 2004 was either blindingly stupid or had a vested financial interest" in his re-election. I said his "base constituency" is "dumb as rocks." And I stand by that. in fact if I had the time and inclination and was smarter myself I bet I could prove that assertion.

But I never once claimed that a card carrying democrat is inherently smarter by virtue of the "liberal" position.

If liberals are universally naturally smarter it sure isn't evidence in this thread. When I read the apologia by said liberals for insanely stupid people who elect politicians who enact insanely stupid and DANGEROUS policies it's obvious there is not mental superiority.

But you really think the "Average American" is smart? Or the Average Human? Well. They are not. You are fucking kidding yourself if you think otherwise. And by "smart" I mean able to entertain contradictory thoughts and appreciate nuanced positions, can resist being swayed by purely animal or tribal emotions, will self correct and admit mistakes, and are capable of strategic long term thinking. They are not. Only about maybe 30-40% of humanity is capable of this... or is educated to do this consistently.

What has taken place in America is the party system has been co-opted by unscrupulous, wealthy corporate oligarch members of that smart 40% for their own ends. They are exploiting our tribal natures and mobilize the stupidest amongst us as robotic foot soldiers using emotional wedge issues. These issues are distractions for real problems. Because the rich can solve THEIR problems with money. And when they don't have enough of their own they use ours - they transfer public wealth, resources, infratructure into private hands. THAT'S how they are going to ride out wars, economic disruption or global warming and every other problem. They don't care about these problems because they don't have to.

And that is what is happening. The Republican party has become professional stooges for the wealthiest. And they are masters at it. And they do it to stay in power because they HAVE to to stay in power.

The Republicans have made ignorance a point of pride. You cannot deney this. They are anti-intellectual (intellectuals are a threat) and they have dismantled public education using RELIGION as a weapons.

Don't give me this "they just have a different point of view" bullshit. They are creating, deliberately, a wasteland of stupidity and a climate of unending wars, and are nurturing a religious based culture war to divide the electorate so they can stay in power.
posted by tkchrist at 8:42 PM on September 6, 2008 [46 favorites]

LisaNova (A "youtube celeberty") did a couple videos on Palin here and here. They're a bit rough, but pretty funny.
posted by delmoi at 8:44 PM on September 6, 2008

Look, I know many of you truly do believe that your Democratic beliefs are The Only Rational Way To See Things....but there are other points of view out there...But HERE is not the only place there is.

Somebody's certainly putting words in my mouth, but I expect nothing less. There are more than one Rational way to see things and I am constantly seeking out the better and the best. "Democratic beliefs" are frequently NOT rational, the Democratic Party is a deeply flawed organization and still subject to a worrysome level of corruption. But America is a Two-Party System (and Ross Perot in the '90s pretty much proved that there can be no viable Third Parties until major Constitutional changes are made) and the Republican Party since the Nixon years has become so consistently irrational, dishonest, corrupt and fascist - and seemingly more so on all counts with every election cycle - that they do not give me a choice. So I am a registered Democrat. Barack Obama is no Messiah for me; just has some potential to maybe repair some of the damage done by George Bush Jr. (who even lies about being a Jr.) and his ilk. I'm not betting money he'll succeed (did you see how many qualifiers I put in that last sentence?), but he has my vote.
posted by wendell at 9:03 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

I may be one of the few people who actually hope that is just cynical rhetoric from someone who realizes that way too many people in America can't get through their lives without an all-powerful God ready to tip the scales in their favor to make up for the problems in their lives.

This attitude is exactly why the religious right is able to paint themselves as victims. You (the generic you, as opposed to Wendell specifically) have to learn and understand that people turn to religion for reasons other than those you wrote. Do some of them use religion cynically? You bet. But when it's all said it done, it completes and fills them in a way nothing us does. If you can't offer them something that can take the place of that, then you need to learn and understand why they think and feel as they do, if for no other reason, than to defeat them on national election stage.

An excellent question to ask Palin supporters (whom I'm assuming are largely religious) would be this: "Imagine you're the member of a large church, say 5,000 or more people, and the pastor wanted to bring in an associate pastor that was just like Sarah Palin, from a small faraway church, pregnant teen and all, what would you think of that? If it would bother on that level, then why are you ok with it in a Vice President?"

On preview:

Heaven forbid we get an echo chamber OF THE FUCKING FACTS

This sort of self righteous, while understandable, won't help. The left's anger and conviction that they're dealing with mouth breathers, whom they should automatically be able to beat. The past eight years should put that theory to test.

As I said somewhere else in this thread, you're living in a reality based world. If you can, find some video from this past GOP convention and you'll realize you're trying to argue 2+2=4 with people are off reading fiction. Your "facts" really aren't going to matter. Indeed, they'll actually come off as an attack and push them away further. It's quite fascinating to watch.

They literally have different priorities than you. Just like many people didn't care what Bill Clinton was doing with Monica, these people don't care that Sarah Palin lied. Hell, they might even admire her for it and they definitely liked that she brought her kids onstage after all the drama about them, as if she was daring someone, anyone to make an issue of it. Say what you will about Palin, but it's clear she values and protects her family and will seemingly fight anyone, no matter who they are and no matter if she came from po dunk town in Alaska. A leader with such grit will keep her tribe safe and if she's imperfect, so what?

The Republicans have made ignorance a point of pride. You cannot deney this.

I don't think so. Their basic message seems to be "no matter how complex life is, there certain core principles that you can follow that will enable you to lead a good life. You don't need to know the various philosophy theories and educated, overthinking bullshit to be smart."

A good analogy is that the right views the left as a bunch of MBAs who can't be trust to do shit right because they're busy over-thinking and forgetting the basics.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:12 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh. One more thing that keeps getting lost amongst the band-width soaking R talking points that won't die:

Palin is not qualified. There is simply zero supportable argument for her being remotely qualified to be VP and president. This is what none of the religious fanatics want to talk about and why they bring up every other fringe issue. It's the same reason you never heard actual real issues being mentioned at the convention. Every time the war, the economy, climate change, poverty, America's standing in the world is mentioned it only reminds people how Palin has no experience dealing with anything material and how all these problems got worse under the Republican watch. How come they want "change." How is it possible the people who have had the legislative, judicial, and executive branch of this country for the better part of eight years, and claim they did a GREAT JOB, can want change? So they want us to reward them for fucking up by putting them BACK in charge?

Makes no sense.

Think of it like this: Dick Cheney has over 30 years of political and corporate experience on the national stage. He was an elite who went to Yale (though didn't graduate from there) her nearly finished an elitist PHD before going into politics. He has served in several presidential administrations. What ever else the black hearted ass is is he is qualified. So Sarah Palin is equal to Dick Cheney? The one term Mayor of a town of less than 7000, the less-than-2-year govonor of one our least populated states? Who attended five "universities" (in quotes because two of those were shit Christian schools widely considered to be a joke) in six years before finally getting a degree? 3 months ago Karl Rove himself dismissed a one term Virginia governor/former mayor of Richmond (pop 200,000) for VP as "too inexperienced."

C'mon.

Once we establish Palins qualifications over somebody like Christine Todd Whitman only THEN can we have a serious policy discussion.
posted by tkchrist at 9:13 PM on September 6, 2008 [14 favorites]

George Bush Jr. (who even lies about being a Jr.)

I'm curious as to what is meant by this.

Are you saying that he's not a "Jr.", but calls himself one? If so, I've never heard him call himself one. Can you give an example of when he's done this?

Or are you saying that he is a "Jr.", but doesn't call himself one? If so, why do you think he's a "Jr."?

Or are you saying something else entirely? If so, what?
posted by Flunkie at 9:24 PM on September 6, 2008

This sort of self righteous, while understandable, won't help. The left's anger and conviction that they're dealing with mouth breathers, whom they should automatically be able to beat. The past eight years should put that theory to test.

Self Righteous? God. Brandon. You have drunk the Kool Aid.

It's not self righteous to PROVE the sky is blue and inform somebody who INSISTS it's green that they are wrong. Nobody should get mad over facts. Nobody should make facts an emotional issue. Well if that's self righteous than I'm proud to take up that label.

And the fact that we can't beat them is proof positive of my thesis that most people are stupid. And democracy is all about individual VOTES. Of course smart people lose. They are in the minority.

It's right there in front of your face. We have bad policy, and bad politicians, because the deciding voting block of stupid people is voting FOR bad policy. Why is is cynical or self-righteous to state a simple fact? Let's put blame where it's due.

Look. The electorate is split. The people that decide these elections are the dumbest least educated, least informed, most religious, most easily manipulated people in the country.

Real solutions are nuanced, require strategic long term thinking, and are not sexy or emotional sound bites. They are hard to understand. It used to be we understood we needed smart, THE SMARTEST, people to figure this shit out. Now we think the Average American is qualified?

Have you seen recent studies on the fundamental knowledge of the Average American lately? Do you understand what little they know of history, world politics, science, or hell, even geography.

I'm through pretending we live in a world we plainly do not.
posted by tkchrist at 9:41 PM on September 6, 2008 [17 favorites]

...way too many people in America can't get through their lives without an all-powerful God ready to tip the scales in their favor to make up for the problems in their lives.

...people turn to religion for reasons other than those you wrote.

I don't think that all the people who "turn to religion" do so for that reason, just "too many". And many (maybe most) don't do so as a consciously cynical act, and many who start out cynically using religion do learn to "really believe". That doesn't make it okay with me.

I didn't write that to win friends or to campaign for myself or anybody. That kind of talk would be Political Suicide in nearly every locality in America. And if America were to become the Faith Based Dictatorship that some people want (and that a lot of people would not object to), that statement would be enough to earn me a place in a "Re-Education Camp". But I'm not running for anything anywhere, and I have no intention to. I'm not trying to get anybody to read my blog (where I do a lot less political comment than I'm doing here). And if the Faith Based Dictatorship ever comes about, I'll be out of here. I'm just speaking my personal opinion while it's still safe to do so.

I used to work at a company where one of the Owners was running for Mayor of Los Angeles. If I'd put a bumper sticker on my car in the office parking lot supporting his opponent, I'd have lost that job. And not because the candidate would order me fired. Just because everybody knew the office was not a "free speech zone". I used to worry more about what I was saying or writing than I do now.
posted by wendell at 9:47 PM on September 6, 2008

Big media stays quiet as Palin’s lover named

Random thoughts about Sarah Palin. A mother of five, with a Down Syndrome infant, a 17 year old daughter living at home and presumably still going to school, with an unborn child due in 4 months, a grandchild, is not going to be able to take care of any of these children as a Vice President. Will all her children pick up their lives and move to Washington DC?

Any mention of Obama's lack of experience as a politician is nothing compared with Palin's real lack of experience. In light of McCain's age, should he die while President, which is a realistic possibility due to the simple stress of the job, this puts the USA in the hands of a fundamentalist.
posted by nickyskye at 9:52 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

BTW I'm not just winning... I've put me revelation into personal selfish action. Ironically admitting what has taken place in America has allowed me to bet against the stupidity of the US electorate, George Bush, and the GOP's "plan for America" and made me significantly more wealthy. And much, much happier.

Thank you oil futures and Euro.

Go McCain!
posted by tkchrist at 9:53 PM on September 6, 2008

Or are you saying that he is a "Jr.", but doesn't call himself one?

Hey! You figured it out by yourself!

If so, why do you think he's a "Jr."?

Because his father named him after himself in the saddest display of egotism a parent can foist upon a child. Gave him his first and one of his two middle names, the cheapest way of fudging on "Junioring" you could do. I hate nepotism and don't believe in "inherited talent". And famous people "Junioring" a child is almost a command from birth to 'follow in my footsteps'.

Three words: FRANK SINATRA JUNIOR.

And the 2000 Presidential campaign of George W. "Don't Call Me Junior" Bush was the GOP's way of screaming "FUCK YOU" to the politician who defeated George H.W. Bush.

I just have a thing against Juniors (okay, my parents took me out of L.A. public schools when they had barely enough money and put me in a private school where I was bullied by several sons of famous people including a "Junior" and a fudged "Junior")

I can't even trust Albert Gore Jr., okay?

Sorry for the derail, but I really want to be around when this thread hits 4000.
posted by wendell at 10:16 PM on September 6, 2008

I can't even trust Albert Gore Jr.

He's no John Sidney McCain III.
posted by lukemeister at 10:25 PM on September 6, 2008

I think part of the issue is how you define "dominionism." If by "dominionist," you're referring to people who want to replace the penal code with the book of Leviticus, then I don't think the term applies to Palin's church. However, if you use the term "dominionist" in a broader sense to the ideology that Christians must exercise "dominion" over heretics and non-believers by taking over control of the government (an ideology which would include the works of Francis Schaeffer), then I think that the term could apply to the churches that Palin has belonged to.

No, I disagree. I don't see them doing that. I see them out to convert the world so that it's in alignment with God's will. Heck, I don't even think Schaeffer would agree with that sentiment, even if his philosophy is part of what Dominionism is built on. Schaeffer, at least from his writings, sounds like he'd rather a protest movement than a political movement.

Remember, one of the essential features of dominionism is the belief that they are the only ones who can govern. This is because the idea is an extension of Calvinist pre-destination and the idea of "The Elect."

If your grandfather called Obama a "colored man," would you say he was a Klansman based on that remark? Probably not. But that's what you're doing here -- assuming is a person shares something with an extreme group, they therefore must be part of the extreme group.

On the other hand, pentecostals and charismatics have been quite willing to borrow fundamentalist and dominionist ideas for their own theology.

Not all pentecostals are charismatics. Not all charismatics are pentecostals.

The categorical distinctions among different varieties of conservative Protestantism aren't as clear-cut as they used to be

Used to be? They've never been. If anything, they are more clear-cut now. The division between mainline and conservative is very clear. Evangelicals come in two flavors (conservative and liberal) and those distinctions are pretty clear nowadays (just ask what they think of Jim Wallis). I'd even argue the non-denominational movement is, for the most part, pretty clear-cut.

And the Dominionists are pretty clear cut here. There's a thread of "soft" dominionism in American Christianity -- the idea that "America is a Christian Nation" or "America was established by God to be a blessing." But Dominionism is beyond that. It's about a single-minded belief in a Christian nation needing to be led by Christians.

Dominionism rejects Palin, and some even reject McCain, because he's not Christian enough.

The soft dominionism happily elected Reagan, a man who barely went to church and was barely more than a Deist. They may attempt to retcon him into the faith (like they do with the Founding Fathers), but most are OK with Reagan (or Jefferson or Washington) not being evangelical enough. After all, the foundation of this country was Judeo-Christian thought, and that's good enough for them.

If Joe Liebermann were pro-life, he'd be the veep candidate for the GOP right now. See, it's not about electing Christians. It's about electing people whose values are their values.

Dominionism, hardcore dominionism, is a small subset of Christianity. Soft dominionism encompasses most of Christianity -- it even shows in the mainline and liberal church at times. But Dominionism, in itself, is about the theonomy found in these Reformed churches.

Saying she's a "stealth Dominionist" is ludicrious. She's already come out as a soft dominionist. But in order for her to be a "stealth Dominionist," she'd have to show evidence of embracing hardcore Dominionist beliefs. Given she's in an AOG church... that's highly unlikely. Heck, it's completely unlikely. If it were true, her husband would be governor.

Dominionist is not the new black. I'm really getting tired of people just throwing it around every time someone on the religious right opens their mouth.
posted by dw at 10:28 PM on September 6, 2008 [2 favorites]

I see nothing wrong with asserting that premarital sex is a sin. But it's a sin whether or not a pregnancy occurs. The act of being pregnant in itself is not a sin. And babies are valuable regardless of the timing of conception.

I completely agree.

But by encouraging it in all cases, you doom many people to extremely unhappy lives. That's all. Any policy that says it's the best in all cases, for all lives, is not a good one.

I completely agree.

I think your point about pro choicers who disapprove of abortion but are willing to allow it misses one very important religious point: free will.

I completely agree.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:38 PM on September 6, 2008

Re: (paraphrased) 'why do I have nothing in common with the people who keep getting elected?'

I believe the answer lies in the grey area between the least common denominator and the tyranny of the majority. A winner-take-all electoral system is believed to lead inevitably to a two-party system. And in order to win in a two-party system, your party has to represent a majority of people, or at least a majority of people have to be willing to swallow their vomit and vote for your party - thus the least common denominator. Once a majority has been established and cemented its base (think about the conflation between political parties and personal identity), though, it has no good reason to acknowledge the wishes of its opposition. Thus, the tyranny of the majority. The answer, my friend, is that you aren't in the majority.
posted by kaibutsu at 11:06 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

And the fact that we can't beat them is proof positive of my thesis that most people are stupid. And democracy is all about individual VOTES. Of course smart people lose. They are in the minority. It's right there in front of your face. We have bad policy, and bad politicians, because the deciding voting block of stupid people is voting FOR bad policy. Why is is cynical or self-righteous to state a simple fact? Let's put blame where it's due.

tkchrist, you are wrong. You are wrong because this is the same country that elected Franklin Delano Roosevelt and Harry Truman and John F. Kennedy and Lyndon Johnson and, for that matter, Bill Clinton. These were all Democrats with platforms to give the less fortunate a hand. Are you saying we were smarter then than we are now? I think if anything more Americans are more educated now than in FDR's time.

I just finished watching Sicko, Moore's documentary about our health care system, and it was very affecting. There was a part where he talked about poor or middle class people in the US not being as activist as they are in other countries because they have been sort of beaten down, and the government is happy about this because this makes the country easier to run.

Actually, I hope that this nomination can work out to be a net positive for Democrats. It's true that it puts the country at risk, if McCain wins, of being a heartbeat away from someone whose values are very, very different than my own and whose qualifications are in doubt. But looking at all the donations to Obama that the Palin nomination has caused (including my own) as a possible sign of things to come, perhaps it will mobilize us -- the young, the old, the poor, the middle class -- to vote, most importantly, and possibly help his campaign. She is in many ways a frightening prospect to have as a vice president, and judging by all the donations Obama is getting, she may have helped to unify us as a party. I hope so.
posted by onlyconnect at 11:06 PM on September 6, 2008

What kind of experience qualifies you to be President of the United States? If you were looking for truly relevant experience, no Senator or Governor would be anywhere near as good as the President or Prime Minister of a country of significant size and international importance. So for President, either Tony Blair or Vlad Putin. If neither of them is willing to accept the number 2 spot on the ticket, Pervez Musharraf would be OK as VP.
posted by wendell at 11:08 PM on September 6, 2008 [3 favorites]

Self Righteous? God. Brandon. You have drunk the Kool Aid.

Hey, it came free with the fried chicken!

It's not self righteous to PROVE the sky is blue and inform somebody who INSISTS it's green that they are wrong.

It is self righteous to insist that your view of the world is the right one, which is what you're doing here when you seem to insist that facts are all that matters. Not everyone thinks that way and not everyone agrees on what the facts are.

Nobody should make facts an emotional issue.

What? Have you met people?! We'll make anything an emotional issue.

And the fact that we can't beat them is proof positive of my thesis that most people are stupid. And democracy is all about individual VOTES. Of course smart people lose. They are in the minority.

If the smart people were as smart as they thought they were, they'd figure out how to lead all those stupid people.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:09 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

Dominionist... I'm really getting tired of people just throwing it around every time someone on the religious right opens their mouth.

Er, why so cranky about it? This seems to have taken on a personal dimension for you.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:12 PM on September 6, 2008

I have this feeling I'm going to wake up to a different leading digit tomorrow.
posted by cortex at 11:13 PM on September 6, 2008

♫ Rockabye Cortex,
All I can say
Is you'll wake tomorrow
To a 4K ♫
posted by wendell at 11:23 PM on September 6, 2008

...not to be confused with a 401K. Unless Matt has a killer benefits plan.
posted by wendell at 11:28 PM on September 6, 2008

I claim this thread and all its riches for the glory of myself and my descendants.
posted by onlyconnect at 11:31 PM on September 6, 2008 [1 favorite]

I was going to claim this thread but I have no descendants. Just descenders. gjpqy.
posted by wendell at 11:35 PM on September 6, 2008

What does it mean when one sees 401k and thinks of Warhammer 40k? I don't do either, to be honest; it's just that somehow, regardless, 40k is just more relevant to the data-processing portion of my brain. Excuse me, I think I need to go clean my bolt-thrower.
posted by kaibutsu at 12:07 AM on September 7, 2008

Once we establish Palins qualifications over somebody like Christine Todd Whitman only THEN can we have a serious policy discussion.

What do you mean? Christy Todd Whitman is a baby killer, duh.
posted by delmoi at 12:13 AM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

Are you saying we were smarter then than we are now?

No. People are every bit as stupid. But in raw numbers there are more stupid people though I bet the proportions are relatively the same. the advances made in education have been offset in the "choose your own reality" nature of modern media.

Your point is silly. Are you seriously trying to claim the culture, media, political machinery and economic climate are the same in the US as it was 45-60 years ago?

This is not the same country that elected FDR for Christ sakes. This isn't even the same country that elected Nixon. Who was a virtual liberal compared to Bush.

I will say that the so called "elites", while still ensuring they god a lions share of the pie, back in FDR's time were at the very least more competent. After WWII the idea of public service was taken much more seriously by those elites and the people smart enough to run things.

If the smart people were as smart as they thought they were, they'd figure out how to lead all those stupid people.

You are aware of course of the fatal flaw in this reasoning, right? Frankly that's so weak I'm surprised you would employ it with a straight face.

The fatal flaw is: THEY HAVE FIGURED IT OUT. It' by manipulating them exactly as I described. You asked the wrong question. The right one: Can you be smart, succeed, and do the right thing? Not in this system.

The problem is you have be totally unscrupulous and completely self centered to be a position of change. You think I think the people at the top of the GOP are stupid? The people that pull the strings are stupid? Fuck no. They simply don't give a shit about the rest of us.

The only way to LEAD the stupid people is to manipulate them.

What happens is once stupid reaches such a critical mass in a two party system both sides get in a race to the bottom. Who ever has the least scruples will win. The other thing is you can't solve problems this way. You can elected but you can't govern. Because you can't govern a country of imbeciles, that you created, who don't understand how complicated our problems ( or they wouldn't elect you) are. But you can get ELECTED.

As noted above the two party system is broken. It has ensured that there will always be a tie. And that tie is broken by the base of given party. The Easiest way to manipulate people and get people, who most likely not go to the polls, is to appeal to their emotions.

People less intelligent are more inclined to be emotionally driven. The more base the emotions the greater the sway. ESPECIALLY if you appeal to their religion. The ULTIMATE emotional appeal.

These people are least likely to appreciate the long term consequences of their actions. They don't hold the people who lead them responsible because they don't understand what has taken place.

There are more of "them" than of you. So, as a smart person, you have THREE choices in this system. Get rich off these idiots (the Establishment way) and buy your way out of the worlds problems essentially fucking everybody else over -OR- you stay marginalized, frustrated and drowning in the tidal wave of stupidity. An Olympic swimmer can't swim through a tidal wave. Or, thirdly, you have to admit the truth— people are too stupid— and change the system to proportional representation.
posted by tkchrist at 12:21 AM on September 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

Ok, ok, I'm up. Did I miss it?
posted by lysdexic at 12:21 AM on September 7, 2008

McCain's Conversion: Political or Spiritual?

McCain, who has never been baptised as an adult, calls himself a Baptist without caveat... except when he calls himself an Episcopalian, like he did as recently as the summer of 2007.

The comments (which perversely accumulate from the bottom up) have a surprisingly high signal to noise ratio for at least the first hundred or so.

It's a tangent, but a pretty damn tight one.
posted by NortonDC at 12:27 AM on September 7, 2008

Tangent? It's barely a cosine.

(okay, quality is taking a back seat to quantity until we hit 4000)
posted by wendell at 12:37 AM on September 7, 2008

FOUR MORE K!
FOUR MORE K!
FOUR MORE K!
posted by wendell at 12:39 AM on September 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

Nice collection of Presidential Speeches, many with audio. Just to raise the tone as we approach the Rapture of 4,000..
posted by Rumple at 12:39 AM on September 7, 2008

This is starting to feel like a longboat... but Alaskan... a longKayak...
posted by wendell at 12:40 AM on September 7, 2008

4K for 4 Kayaks? But "kayak" already has two Ks, so...

I'm losing it.
posted by wendell at 12:42 AM on September 7, 2008

An umiak?
posted by Rumple at 12:42 AM on September 7, 2008

And for tonight and tonight only, you can have this comment for ONLY 3995 (plus tax, license, shipping, handling, kickbacks and recycling fee, because I KNOW I've done this lame joke before)
posted by wendell at 12:44 AM on September 7, 2008

Umiak, Opriak...
Opriak, Umiak...
posted by wendell at 12:45 AM on September 7, 2008

and, incredibly, I am getting this silly WITHOUT the aid of drugs or alcohol!
posted by wendell at 12:46 AM on September 7, 2008

Are we there yet?
posted by wendell at 12:47 AM on September 7, 2008

endwell
posted by NortonDC at 12:47 AM on September 7, 2008

y4k!
posted by Rumple at 12:47 AM on September 7, 2008

unless somebody has snuck in ahead of me...

FOUR THOUSAND!!!

Goodnight Everybody!
posted by wendell at 12:48 AM on September 7, 2008

I hate you all. Good Night.
posted by wendell at 12:50 AM on September 7, 2008

I've been trying to figure out why I have such a visceral revulsion and disgust for Sarah Palin. I finally was able to put my finger on it. It is a matter of hubris. She is so confident of herself and so sure she is right and that she has it all figured out. Self confidence is good and can go a long way in overcoming difficulties and meeting challenges. But there is also something to be said for humility, and she seems to be very short on that. The problem with hubris is that , although they always get their comeuppance, they damage or destroy a lot of people in the meantime. Sarah Palin strikes me as the type of person who will gladly march on the longest road of bones and climb the highest pile of corpses to attain her ambition to change the world to meet her twisted sense of god's will. I can only hope that her shooting star will be brief and grow no brighter than it already has. Our country an not afford 4 or 8 more years of leadership that doesn't realize and wouldn't admit how destructive it is.
posted by Daddy-O at 1:00 AM on September 7, 2008 [15 favorites]

Darth Vader chimes in.
posted by Rumple at 1:08 AM on September 7, 2008

Darth Vader has a cat and lives in the suburbs?! How the mighty have fallen. He isn't able to construct a compelling argument for Obama, but he has gained quite a bit of humility so maybe there's hope for him.
posted by Daddy-O at 1:25 AM on September 7, 2008

I am a little disturbed by how often Ms Palin mentions that her son has downs syndrome - and how much she says on that topic. But that said, what do we actually know? This is a very young child - isn't it possible that he will be very nearly normal? As I understand it, downs is goes all the way from diapers-for-life to a little bit slow. Perhaps this child will be fairly self-sufficient. Is it possible to assess his disability at this point? 7

That said, I had heard some bad things about her last winter - the brother-in-law issue; weird, possibly false evidence; and jacking with local reporters who were covering. When she was announced, I dug through some old newspaper stuff - as I assume anyone with a decent public library or handy Nexis has done. She seems to scream loyalty and throw temper tantrums at every turn. Bad. Bad bad bad.

Also, perhaps I cannot judge whether or not a woman who boards a commercial aircraft when she may be in labor is endangering her child, I can say with full authority that she is entirely comfortable with the possibility that the plane may have to make an emergency landing and leave the rest of us on that plane stranded in Utica. Also bad.

But she and John McCain could take of their shoes to reveal cloven hooves and still win...I'm afraid.
posted by Lesser Shrew at 1:40 AM on September 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

Two days ago in St. Paul, 2008 RNC : 19 year old Elliot Hughes, a protester arrested for "falling" off his bike, then "tortured" in jail.
posted by nickyskye at 1:54 AM on September 7, 2008 [5 favorites]

On the brightish side, McCain has gotten what looks like a historically below-average convention bump; my understanding is that the bump is usually around 3.5%, but he's only seen about 2 points, by my best estimates. Additionally, the pollster.com maps portray a huge advantage for the Dems going into the electoral fight. And seeing as I'm going to be singlehandedly delivering the state of Nevada for Obama (well, me and all the other canvassers...), I'm feeling pretty good.

Palin, though, continues to be a joke. I was playing Apples to Apples the other night with some friends, lamenting the lack of a Sarah Palin card. It might even trump the mighty Anne Frank card at this point.
posted by kaibutsu at 2:26 AM on September 7, 2008 [3 favorites]

Thanks for posting that video nickyskye. This is terrifying. And it does not seem to be an isolated incident. I am surprised, actually, that the issue of excessive police violence and unwarranted arrests is not discussed more when it comes to the election. Is this because your federal government does not have anything to say about local police forces? Or is there another reason?
posted by davar at 4:30 AM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

moving this issue from the MetaTalk thread here where it belongs:

It seems to me the librarian-firing fits in with the overall theme of Palin's action in office: she fired a shitload of people with the goal of replacing them with loyalists and cronies.

In her defense, it appears that most of the people she fired were the loyalists and cronies of the previous Governor; just Business as Usual in Alaska politics. But the fact that she was promoting herself to all who would listen as a "reformer" while she was practicing Alaska Politics As Usual suggest that she was campaigning for something for the last two years... maybe exactly what she got.
posted by wendell at 4:31 AM on September 7, 2008

kaibutsu, to be fair, this is the first time we have these late, back-to-back conventions, both with running mates announced a few days beforehand. What this means right now is that Obama's suggested bounce hasn't rolled out of the tracking poll data yet -- but will do so today.

I for one will not be surprised if McCain is somewhere between -1 to +4 in the Gallup and Rasmussen tracking polls by tomorrow or Tuesday, with the RCP average again a (virtual) tie. Any higher than than would be a surprise, IMO, and will spark a lot of new discussion on Palin's role, or prevent the discussion from dying out over the coming week, rather.

But you're right, macro conditions are still largely on the Dems' side, and I still give Obama a better than 50% chance of winning. At the end of the day it still comes down to a fairly small set of events likely to decide this thing, though:

1. Can McCain win Michigan? If so, McCain is very likely to win the election.
2. If McCain loses Michigan, can Obama win Ohio? If so, Obama is very likely to win the election.
3. If Ohio and Michigan are split, can Obama win Colorado or Virginia? If so, Obama is very likely to win the election, having essentially to pick off just one or two smaller states West of the Mississippi (Iowa, New Mexico, Nevada, Montana) while perhaps also having to defend New Hampshire.

(Note that out of these, Iowa is doing best, and seems relatively safe for now, knock on wood.) More importantly, note the conspicuous absence of Florida, where Obama will definitely make an effort, but which the campaign is carefully planning around. Trust numbers geek (and Iowa caucus adept, lest we forget) David Plouffe with this, who is chronically underreported and underappreciated, I find (this is the first mention of his name in The Thread).

(If you like this sort of thing you might like to take a peek at his primaries projections spreadsheet.)

So a lot is going to depend on turnout, as it always does, and Plouffe knows this. If new voter registrations are any indication, things are going quite well. National polling numbers are nice, but essential to Obama's success in November is the mobilisation of voters in places like Ann Arbor, the fast-growing VA suburbs, massive registration and GOTV efforts in MI, OH, VA, CO, NM.

And lastly, if you live somewhere like MA or CA (or conversely, TX, WV), you still need to go out and vote. As a foreign observer, I must admit the Electoral College system makes things very fun to watch (it does add a lot of drama to the whole ordeal), but I believe that if people in the US would just go out and vote, something like the NPVIC would be ratified much sooner.

In short, Obama's got a good shot -- better than Gore or Kerry at this point I'd argue -- but this thing is far from locked up. (If you want your excessive optimism stifled, go watch Recount again. Seriously.)

Good luck.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 5:52 AM on September 7, 2008 [4 favorites]

sondrialac:
You're confusing the republican leadership with the people who identify themselves as Republican, who are mostly good people with a different point of view.

QFT. Really, this more perfect union of yours will never come to pass if you (and we) keep hanging onto us & them politics. Or where do you think this Unity Senator Obama speaks of will come from? Out of (further) left field?

Sorry, carry on.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:01 AM on September 7, 2008

Does Sarah Palin actually govern Alaska, or does she let her husband do it?
posted by caddis at 6:16 AM on September 7, 2008

And here's Rasmussen (Tie).
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:22 AM on September 7, 2008

Palin's Family Has Always Held a Place in Her Politics.
posted by davar at 6:43 AM on September 7, 2008

Thanks, gnfti - great links to study up on.

Two things I have been thinking about:

1. Intellectual relativism - In the Reagan years the conservatives were always railing against the moral relativism of the left, which I think hit home with people who prefer to see things as black or white/right or wrong certainties in an uncertain world.

The term for those that see Palin as an equal to Obama, Biden or even McCain, is intellectual relativism - a world where everyone is just as capable of doing anything with a little training.
If I heard one more of the quotes from the delegates inerviewed by every stripe of the MSM from the floor of the Reuplican Convention that Sarah Palin would soon be "up to speed" my head would have exploded. Someone that has never taken any interest in world affairs, without a vigorous education and little experience and believes creationism should be taught along side evolution is not going to be "up to speed" in any meaningful way.

2, This damn saber rattling the Bush administration is doing to provoke Russia (missiles in Poland) and China (Giving India the go-ahead for nuclear weapons) to get things to a fever pitch internationally in the weeks before the election.

Russia and China can decide how much of the bait they want to rise to, Russia was already complaining a bit last week. China has not had an official reaction yet, that I've heard to India's potential new nukes as this was announced late yesterday, but these have the potential to heat up quite a bit.

It's all a matter of timing - Putin can go all"Cuban missile crisis" at the end of October, and the electorate will rush to vote for a strong leader - or so goes conventional thinking.
posted by readery at 7:14 AM on September 7, 2008

It's all a matter of timing - Putin can go all"Cuban missile crisis" at the end of October, and the electorate will rush to vote for a strong leader - or so goes conventional thinking.

Actually, Putin is aware that the Republicans are ratcheting up tension in time for the election. I doubt he wants McCain to be in office, although there are reasons why Obama would be dangerous for him as well.
posted by nasreddin at 7:25 AM on September 7, 2008

From davar's WaPo article:

Husband Todd, a celebrity in his own right as a champion snowmobile racer before becoming known as "First Dude," confers with Cabinet officials and is copied on the governor's e-mails. Her teenage daughter's pregnancy became a touchstone for a national debate on unwed mothers. And her sister's bitter divorce from a state trooper generated the first scandal in an administration built on vows of openness and rectitude amid a massive corruption investigation then rocking the Republican establishment.

For one thing that article felt as if it were written by the campaign seeing how breezily it went over the fact the non-elected "First Dude" confers with Palin's Cabinet and is copied on official state email. Do the spouses of other governors do this? I'm not naive enough to think that "pillow talk" doesn't happen, but to go as far as meeting with cabinet officials and being copied on email?

I've always hated politicians touting their families around as props to help prove they have "family values" and how the spouses are often fodder for the opposition. We're not voting for the couple. But we're not voting for the spouse. I mean did Lynn Cheney sit in with Cheney's meetings with the oil barons, or recently in Georgia, etc?

I also thought that had HRC been elected president that Bill would have had a hard time just sitting back and doing shit like picking out the official silverware and other bullshit stuff first ladies do now.

If we're voting for the couple then is is Barack and Michelle Obama vs. John and Cindy McCain. For VP, it is Joe and whatever his wife's name is vs. Sarah and First Dude Palin.
posted by birdherder at 7:40 AM on September 7, 2008

I've been avidly following the book banning issue since the story broke, what?, 24 hours after her nomination? It is a topic of huge interest in this household, so I've known all along there was no list. Reading the Metatalk discussion on the topic this morning, thanks to Mediareport's link I was glad to see a 1996 Frontiersman article about the issue had an actual interview with the librarian (Damn I wish someone would fly up there and help those guys put their back issues up on line-- they have to be jam-packed with Palin Nuggets.) What caught my eye this morning was this: "John Cooper, a fifth director, resigned after Palin eliminated his job overseeing the city museum."

While Sarah was busy borrowing and begging for vast (by small town standards) sums for her park & sports complex) she refused to to use any part of her Federal windfall ($27 mill) for the library and actually cut the budget on the town's museum. This is something my husband and I have talked about-- her priorities are definitely not our priorities. Her vaunted "Small Town Values" means Yes to drinking and sports, No to culture and literature.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:01 AM on September 7, 2008 [12 favorites]

Look, I know many of you truly do believe that your Democratic beliefs are The Only Rational Way To See Things....

There are moral issues which are based on faith (even for agnostics and aetheists), and these are up for a certain amount of debate. And there are issues where we just don't have shared values.

But there are things which are not "beliefs" or preferences, they are empirical facts. I don't think that the Democratic party is right on all of them, but the Republican party has been wrong on many, very serious issues (either intentionally, or unintentionally)

For example -

Republicans continue to claim that they are more fiscally responsible - this is not true. Reagan increased the debt and deficit even in a time of world prosperity. Clinton reduced this debt, but George Bush increased it again. For the last thirty years, Democratic administrations have been more fiscally responsible than Republicans.

Similarly, "trickle down" (which John McCain is currently advocating, though in not so many words) does not appear to work. As linked above, incomes for all Americans have gone up more on average under Democratic administrations than under Republican, including under the vaunted Reagan. George W. Bush has tried using tax cuts to stimulate the economy - it didn't work. High level incomes have been increasing, but the money does not trickle down - middle and lower class wages have just stagnated. (To be honest, I believe that many in the Republican party don't care about this, and are perfectly happy for income inequality to increase, because they are in the top income levels.)

When Republican candidates claim that they are the party of fiscal responsibility, or that they have a better economic plan, they are saying something that is either demonstratably false, or shown by history to be very unlikely to be true.

There are many issues on which there aren't clear answers. Some are matters of conscience and morality that aren't necessarily shared by all in the nation. But there are many political issues that can be broken down rationally, and be right or wrong -- and one party can be wrong on them. On matters of fact, all opinion is not equal.

Claiming that political debate is just "opinion" is a real disservice to political discourse. It leads to just yelling at each other, and voting on rhetoric for policies which sound might good in words but which have real world consequences. Bad things happen.

------------------------

"Small town values"

"The most respectful and wholesome news team finds out what small town values really mean at the RNC"(from Jon Stewart's 'The Daily Show' last night. Watch it! [video | 04:26]
posted by ericb at 10:09 PM on September 6 [+] [!]

I found this segment funny, but also disturbing. Leaving the gay marriage issue aside, what came out is that these small town advocates are claiming that "small-town" = REAL. Only small towns have REAL people with REAL problems -- which makes me ask: so who are in the cities if they are real? Is American simply a great big version of the Truman show, starring the inhabitants of small towns as Truman, and the cities and suburbs and exurbs are all actors putting on exiting drama?
posted by jb at 8:02 AM on September 7, 2008 [3 favorites]

>and if it stays good then this battle turns to Colorado.
McCain/Palin just held a rally in Colorado where they spoke for fifteen minutes to over 10,000 people. Palin attacked Obama for his lack of experence. Reading that made me feel like this guy.
posted by Sailormom at 8:05 AM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

nasreddin, I think all the former cold war players like to keep the status quo for the same reason that the Republican party likes to use abortion and gay marriage, a familiar boogey man to trot out as needed.

Putin would probably prefer to play games re: missiles in Poland, keeping the Russian populace focused on the enemy without rather than the enemy within.

Both Russia and China don't have a handle on Obama yet - I would bet they'll prefer to play the game where they know the rules.
posted by readery at 8:19 AM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

A mother of five...is not going to be able to take care of any of these children as a Vice President. Will all her children pick up their lives and move to Washington DC?

This is really sexist, and it's been everywhere. I hate it. How is Palin different from any other politician who has under-age children? Has any one questioned Obama's choice to force his children to move to Washington? If he wins, they will be living in much more of a fishbowl as the children of a president than the children of a vice-president. JFK had toddlers - he really shouldn't have run, right?

Palin is fiscally irresponsible and has a loose relationship with the truth, and she is the running mate of a man who for all his experience still touts trickle down economics as a solution for one of the most serious economic crises in the States since the Great Depression. These are good reasons to criticise her.

But holding her to a double standard, to say that a mother cannot serve, but a father can - well, I don't call it out much, but that is sexist.
posted by jb at 8:20 AM on September 7, 2008 [10 favorites]

Both Russia and China don't have a handle on Obama yet - I would bet they'll prefer to play the game where they know the rules.

which makes the big assumption that it's our election that determine the rules

putin is canny enough that he's not going to do anything that affects our election unless it's part of a long standing planned strategy

the chinese have been living with india as a nuclear neighbor for almost 35 years and are more concerned with economics, especially commodities

i don't think they're going to take the bait they've been offered so far
posted by pyramid termite at 8:37 AM on September 7, 2008

Er, why so cranky about it? This seems to have taken on a personal dimension for you.

I think I'm just annoyed. It shows the areligious left is as clueless about the religious right as the religious right is about the areligious left. And understanding the religious right and all its strange nuances and crossing beliefs -- and not throwing labels on it that don't belong -- is crucial, because it means you don't play into their hands and feed their power with your ignorance.

If a gay atheist were running for a major political race on a pro-life, anti-gay marriage platform, the religious right wouldn't bat an eye. Hell, they'd endorse him.

It's not about the religion, it's about the values. If it were about religion in itself, then John McCain wouldn't be the nominee.
posted by dw at 9:08 AM on September 7, 2008

For those who missed it, Frank Rich has a well-written piece in todays NYT. More analytical than breathless innuendo.
posted by dawson at 9:15 AM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

At this point, it's the refusal to talk to the press, the complete disdain for the idea that the press is entitled to ask questions, that's the most offensive and infuriating thing about the whole Palin story.

And I think it's a powerful angle--much more so than any of the did-she-have-an-affair gossip bullshit.

I mean, Jesus, this is David Frum (!) in the National Review:

I am not denying that Sarah Palin may have great skills. She may well. I am insisting that neither you, nor I, nor John McCain has any valid reason to believe that she does. This is not an argument about the attributes she lacks. It's an argument about the information we lack. I am pleading with my fellow conservatives: Please demand more and better knowledge before you commit yourselves to a political leader.

This is Day Nine. Andrew Sullivan just pointed out that Dan Quayle (!) gave a press conference one day after his selection.

Can someone with the with the appropriate skills put together some kind of How Long Will Palin Hide? countdown widget? I think it would spread like wildfire, and almost definitely get some coverage.
posted by neroli at 9:21 AM on September 7, 2008 [3 favorites]

Has she spoken with the press at all since the pick was announced? If so, we can just do a clock that starts at that point and counts upward, Fox News-style.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:30 AM on September 7, 2008

Actually, I see that MoveOn already did it.

I think the MoveOn name gives the McCain camp "left-wing media" ammunition--but hey, it's still worth spreading.
posted by neroli at 9:33 AM on September 7, 2008

Andrew Sullivan just pointed out that Dan Quayle (!) gave a press conference one day after his selection.

Yeah, but at that point the RNC wanted to show his competence (oops). Today, with Palin, it's her anti-competence that's being touted.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 9:38 AM on September 7, 2008

4 is the new 3.
posted by cortex at 9:43 AM on September 7, 2008

War is the new free.
posted by neroli at 9:46 AM on September 7, 2008 [4 favorites]

If I had more time and skills, what I would be doing right now is pouring over the right wing pundits, collecting the horrible twists of logic and belief they are engaging in by pretending that Sarah Palin is qualified to be president. Some day (hopefully soon) it will be very funny to look back on the days when people in the media said, no, I don't think a VP candidate should be ready to answer questions when she is announced. No, I don't see anything funny about her going to night school on foreign policy less than a month from the day she debates Joe Biden.

By the way, I'm not betting on any gaffes from her at the debates. There's no way that she can learn actual answers for all the questions that will be thrown at her, but they'll teach her about fifteen speeches and how to go from a question to one of her prepared answers.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:47 AM on September 7, 2008

Comment FC3!

I woke up thinking of Sailin', which rhymes with Palin, by Christopher Cross. This is not a good sign.
posted by lukemeister at 9:49 AM on September 7, 2008

Can someone with the with the appropriate skills put together some kind of How Long Will Palin Hide?

I nominate NBC's The Today Show: "Where in the World is Sarah Palin?"
posted by skyper at 9:49 AM on September 7, 2008

I'd just like to add that for my own well-being it would really be helpful if anyone else could reassure me that I'm not the only one who actually gets physically enraged contemplating that to the level of wanting to hit someone and being glad I'm alone in my apartment right now.

Right there with you. As I said about two thousand comments ago, sometimes I read or think about these things and I feel like I'm going crazy.
posted by Bookhouse at 10:25 AM on September 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

How is Palin different from any other politician who has under-age children?

She's different because the others ones aren't touting their reproductive success as qualification for high office.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:31 AM on September 7, 2008 [7 favorites]

I really do want to go hit things. "A less hostile media environment"? This is someone laughing--literally laughing--at the responsibilities of a free and open press. No one running for office has ever done this before. No one.

While I really hated Sullivan's poking around the baby rumors last week, he's really going on a good run with this. (Thomas Eagleton--famously the most misguided and disastrous VP ever--was available to the press one day after the selection announcement.)

Once again, here is MoveOn's Palin Clock for your blog-embedding pleasure.

And I really think the world needs something similar as an iPhone app.
posted by neroli at 10:32 AM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

You are aware of course of the fatal flaw in this reasoning, right? Frankly that's so weak I'm surprised you would employ it with a straight face.

::hangs head in shame::

I was actually making a dig at ya, since you're busy acting smart and others are stupid, I figure you counted yourself among the smart, so I was just pointing out that if you are among the smart, why aren't you leading?

The fatal flaw is: THEY HAVE FIGURED IT OUT. It' by manipulating them exactly as I described. You asked the wrong question. The right one: Can you be smart, succeed, and do the right thing? Not in this system.

What's the right thing?

You think I think the people at the top of the GOP are stupid? The people that pull the strings are stupid? Fuck no. They simply don't give a shit about the rest of us.

Why should they if, based on your writings here, you don't give a shit about them? My point here is that by calling them stupid and dismissing their views, you're not helping. If you don't want to help, that's fine, but then you can't really complain if when the "war" starts and you're on the losing side.

This is really sexist, and it's been everywhere. I hate it. How is Palin different from any other politician who has under-age children?

She's a woman, which is different from most other American politicians with under-age children. Traditionally woman take care of the children on a day to day basis, while the man is away earning the cash to support the family. So it's not unreasonable for Americans to be questioning her judgment in this matter.

After all, both Palins work, which is fine, happens all the time, but now there's a newborn and usually someone needs to be around during those early years to provide the child with the love, attention and stimulation that all young kids need. Since neither Palin is around to do that, well who is taking care of the kid? Why isn't it Sarah Palin? Is she really choosing to be Vice President over the direct day to day care of her newborn? Being Governor of Alaska is one thing, but Vice President of the USA is a whole 'nother level.

Add in that her eldest child just go pregnant and her newborn will have special needs, and it sounds like the family doesn't need the challenge of being the family of the VP, they've got plenty of things on their plate.

That said, not all women or families are the same and it's certainly possible the Palin family and extended family can pull together and make it work. But for a candidate who's supposedly pro family, it appears as though she's placing something above her family.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:48 AM on September 7, 2008

Brandon, from what I have read, her husband is gonna be Mr. Mom and is overseeing the day to day stuff.

It IS interesting seeing people start asking these questions...particularly since my generation really has been told by feminists that all we need are good jobs and good daycares.
posted by konolia at 10:54 AM on September 7, 2008

Palin offers first television interview to ABC

A McCain-Palin adviser says an interview was offered to ABC's Charlie Gibson several days ago and that they expect it to happen in the latter part of the week in Alaska. Palin is the governor of Alaska and is expected to return home at midweek after more joint appearances with McCain.

posted by dawson at 10:59 AM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

How is Palin different from any other politician who has under-age children?

I'm guessing you don't have any children, if you can't see why having a five month old baby (even without special needs) might make it difficult to perform any difficult job well. We'll just start with sleep deprivation and the need for frequent work interruptions to tend to the infant. Babies can't tell you what's wrong. They get sick, or will suddenly have frothy green diarrhea for reasons no one can figure out at first (mom ate pineapple?), and you kind of have to drop everything and deal with it. A school age kid is a totally different situation, much more easily planned in advance.

Forgive me if this is obvious or condescending, but the question kind of astounds me.
posted by msalt at 11:02 AM on September 7, 2008

An interesting article from the current issue of The New Yorker -- Party Faithful -- 'Can the Democrats get a foothold on the religious vote?"
posted by ericb at 11:12 AM on September 7, 2008

...her husband is gonna be Mr. Mom

Rev. Hagee on "Mr. Moms"

"...McCain campaign spokesperson Tucker Bounds touted the fact that Todd Palin is a 'stay-at-home-dad.' Interestingly, radical cleric and erstwhile McCain endorser Rev. John Hagee insists that, in the Lord’s eyes, a stay-at-home-dad is 'a bum' who is 'worse than an infidel.' 'Hell is your future home,' Hagee says. Watch it."

posted by ericb at 11:17 AM on September 7, 2008

Just to personalize this: I stayed home full time with each of my daughters when they were 3 to 6 months old. (My ex is a schoolteacher; she took her 3 months leave, then I took 3 months to get us to summer vacation. I would even hike the kids up the hill to her school so she could breast feed.) It's an amazing experience I would recommend to anyone who can afford it financially, but I didn't even try to keep running my small company during those months. I just shut it down. So I know something about what I'm saying.
posted by msalt at 11:18 AM on September 7, 2008

A McCain-Palin adviser says an interview was offered to ABC's Charlie Gibson ...

I wonder if Gibson will field questions before hand from his "softball" partner George Stephanopoulos. Their despicable performance at the Democratic Debate in Philadelphia will go down as one of the worst and shameful performances by news "inquisitors" ever.
posted by ericb at 11:22 AM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

Nice line, Joe Biden!

Palin is scheduled to participate in one vice presidential debate against Biden on October 2. Biden was asked if she would be tough to debate.

"There's a lot of very tough, smart women in the U.S. Senate I debate every day so in that sense it's not new," he said. "But what is new is I have no idea what her policies are."
posted by neroli at 11:22 AM on September 7, 2008 [5 favorites]

Brandon, from what I have read, her husband is gonna be Mr. Mom and is overseeing the day to day stuff.

That's great, whatever works for'em. It's just odd to me that she would choose to do this NOW.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:24 AM on September 7, 2008

There was a series of articles by the Washington Post in 1992 (made into a book later) which were a very detailed look at Dan Quayle. One of the things that jumped out at me was that "Quayle had worked for six months to be picked by Bush. He knew he was on the short list and was convinced he was the logical choice." I can't find anything like it for free on the 'net, so here's some random stuff:

Picking George H. W. Bush

It seems like forever ago now. Biden more of a lightweight than Dan Quayle

The first presidential decision:
"A presidential nominee can’t be clairvoyant and may sometimes make, as Nixon said, “a bum choice.” But each one owes it to the country to consider what kind of president the standby might make, and how to utilize the vice presidency to assure that the occupant will be a well-informed president if destiny calls.

If voters took the wisdom of that decision into account in casting their ballots for president a few months later, perhaps the presidential nominees would feel obliged to weigh it more seriously as well. "
posted by lysdexic at 11:28 AM on September 7, 2008

it appears as though she's placing something above her family

I guess if you take the McCain/Palin slogan at face value, then yes absolutely Country First. Country apparently trumps all -- family and God too, I assume. What I'd really like to see the rest of the prioritized list. Country is first, got it. Now what comes in second? Is it family? Or is it (their) God? Or maybe state-rights? Or maybe just Alaska-rights?
posted by gruchall at 11:38 AM on September 7, 2008

Reverend Hagee is misusing scripture there. The scripture he references refers to EITHER SEX refusing to support needy family members and dumping them on the church to take care of. I suppose he could be referring to the occasional lazy shlub who lets the wife do EVERYTHING and just sits on his can; that is NOT the same as a Mr. Mom -unless it is your opinion that a stay at home mom is a lazy butt. Which is categorically NOT true.

My personal view is that usually it is better for mom to be primary caregiver, but there are exceptions to that, and as long as the kids are cared for and happy, that is what is important.

I ignore Hagee. He is not someone whose church I would care to attend. I am not in agreement with his theology in general.
posted by konolia at 11:43 AM on September 7, 2008

Brandon, from what I have read, her husband is gonna be Mr. Mom
Do you have a source for that? A few hundred comments ago you said that her husband already IS at home with the children, which is not true. During the campaign for governor, she said that Todd would stay home with the kids. Apparently, Todd was not informed of that (can you imagine going on a campaign to become governor and not discuss the childcare issue with your spouse?) and did not agree. Later, Sarah said: "You know, we've never hidden the fact that Todd had a job and he's created to work. He wants to keep working and after seven months of not working he is ready to go back.". Todd said he went back to work because: I mean, we're still fairly young and we've got kids going into college. Some governors and their spouses, I'm sure, are independently wealthy, but we're not one of those couples. So we have to watch out for our kids future.

About the sexism thing: msalt, I totally hear what you are saying (I naievely thought that I could start my own company right after my child was born...), but every child is different and has different needs. I am astonished that Palin was able to work right until her water broke and got back to work three days after that. I read in the family article that I linked above that they get lots of support from both their families (I don't know if they will move to Washington with her though). On a personal level, her choice surprises me, because she seems to be so proud about her qualifications as a hockey mom and a PTA mom. In fact (I linked this above) she refused to run for senate four years ago because then she could not be the team mom anymore. I am curious what changed (because back then they did not have a pregnant child and a special needs infant) and what their plans are. Looking at her history and seeing the way the GOP sees the fact that she is such a great devoted mother as one of her main qualities, and they brought the mothering thing to the campaign table, I think those questions are valid. They want people to vote for her because she is such a great mom, so it is logical that people ask how exactly this mothering/VP thing is going to work for her.

All that said, I do wish people would ask, and not immediately judge and say "how can she do that" without knowing the specifics of their situation. On the other hand, if she would just talk to the press...
posted by davar at 11:54 AM on September 7, 2008

Oh, ginormous Palin thread--I just can't quit you!

For anyone still playing along at home, something tasty via HuffPo:

It's worth noticing that this is not the first time Palin has hidden from scrutiny on a campaign trail in order to cover up her lack of knowledge. Here, for example, is a quote from an Anchorage Daily News editorial written during the 2006 governor's race: "Ms. Palin has undeniable charisma and outsider appeal, but she has little statewide experience and a weak command of the issues she would need to master as governor -- a flaw she conceals by routinely skipping campaign forums with her opponents." Another story from the same paper reported, "Palin missed a few scheduled events and, at others, came off as unprepared or over her head. After an education forum last week, she was mocked by her opponents for submitting a folksy three-year-old essay about her schoolteacher father instead of a plan for improving schools."
posted by neroli at 11:58 AM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

We have enough working parents at Metafilter-weigh in, peeps: can she do this or not?

By the way, I was gonna vote for McCain before he chose her. That isn't changing. I do think that a lot of the questions on this thread re her are valid. But I also think that some-not all-of some of these questions could be asked of Obama as well.

There are two things to look at when looking at a candidate-does he or she share my core values? Does he or she have the wherewithall to govern well? I am not quite happy with Palin's educational background-which I finally found out about after people quit speculating whether Trig was HER baby...

Look, folks, age nonwithstanding, I think McCain has enough good years left in him. Look at his 96 year old mom-spry and healthy and in attendance at the convention....I am not worried about him croaking in the next four years.
posted by konolia at 12:05 PM on September 7, 2008

It IS interesting seeing people start asking these questions...particularly since my generation really has been told by feminists that all we need are good jobs and good daycares.

...and equal pay, and protection from harassment, and any number of other things that the feminist movement has championed that are good for everyone, not just women, all while getting criticized by women like Caitlin Flanagan, whose have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too attitude is a bit rich for me. Amy Richards, author of Opting In, makes an interesting point in this interview:

Motherhood continues to be a hotly debated topic. Why is the media so obsessed with what mothers do and don't do?

I think the media sadly is invested in keeping women insecure about themselves. If they're insecure then they're more likely to read the media and be invested in the media's telling them right from wrong. I'm not a terribly cynical person, but the media is sustained by the advertisers, so there is somewhat of a correlation between the products being sold and the stories being told.

I see a connection between Richards' thoughts on motherhood and Palin + the media. If we're insecure, afraid of big bad terrorists, bullied into thinking that ANY woman would be right for the job, etc, women are more apt to fall for the McCain/Palin "narrative."

This whole thread has me so het up, I've actually started fundraising for Barack Obama. I cannot imagine the impact McCain and Palin would have on many, many issues that are dear to me. It's scary.

As for the Mr. Mom comments from Hagee et al -- did I accidentally stumble into a time machine? What year is this? I know several women whose husbands are "Mr. Moms" -- and it works incredibly well for them. Again, that's CHOICE for you. They made a choice and chose what worked best for their family.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 12:06 PM on September 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

I'm guessing you don't have any children, if you can't see why having a five month old baby (even without special needs) might make it difficult to perform any difficult job well. We'll just start with sleep deprivation and the need for frequent work interruptions to tend to the infant. Babies can't tell you what's wrong. They get sick, or will suddenly have frothy green diarrhea for reasons no one can figure out at first (mom ate pineapple?), and you kind of have to drop everything and deal with it. A school age kid is a totally different situation, much more easily planned in advance.

Forgive me if this is obvious or condescending, but the question kind of astounds me.

Forgive me if this is obvious or condenscending but there's no particular reason the woman who gave birth to the baby has to be the one to drop everything and deal with the diarrhea. I understand that you are speaking from the experience of being a parent, but you presumably were not holding powerful political office while parenting, and people who are frequently pay other people to help care for their children.
posted by hydropsyche at 12:07 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

I DO NOT think you have to be a slack-jawed sheep to subscribe to these positions. You DO have to have a different set of values than I do

SHAPE OF THE EARTH: VIEWS DIFFER. ah, the old canard of a particularly gullible subset of liberals -- Republicans have made a political killing out of it for decades now

No, views don't differ about the shape of the earth, about the presence of WMDs in Iraq, about Saddam's nonexistent role in the organization of the 9/11 plot, about Obama not being a Muslim (as bad as his choice of pastors has been he is not a Muslim and there is no evidence he ever practiced the religion back in Indonesia as a small child).

they also don't differ about the fact that scripture has been proven -- proven -- scientifically impossible and hence can only be reasonaby taken as a spiritual document, not as a science book or as a law manual. you can't say that 2+2=4 and then in the same breath say that men come back from the dead, walk on water, fly. you can't. it's not about views. it's about reality. and reason. some refuse reason, and reality. they need to be held responsible for that when they legislate for everybody else based on their scientifically discredited beliefs. the assault on reason isn't just a book title, it's something that happens every day in politics, not just in the US unfortunately.

being religious is one thing -- Obama is, too, apparently and I don't see his secular supporters having a problem with it -- but being a fundamentalist is another . because, you know what mhwhybark, HE DOESN'T USE THOUSANDS-OF-YEARS-OLD, BASED-ON-DISPROVED-COSMOLOGIES, NONSCIENTIFIC, RACIST SCRIPTURE AS A BLUEPRINT TO LEGISLATE (or, to govern, if he actually makes it this November).

bafflingly, the Republican Party does -- the Bible is a science book and a law manual for them. they use their personal religion to write the community's law, thus forcing Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. o live under a different God's law, and secularists to live under rules. they endorse a literal, unscientific view of religion that bypasses Enlightenment. they want to do it privately? great, it's all good, freedom of religion, there are no value judgements, go to church, to shul, to mosque, it's a private thing and it's of course wrong to make fun of that -- but people attack Palin not for what she does in church, but for what she wants to shove down America's throat based on her own personal religious ideas and feelings (based,, as I said on impossible tales of the Bronze Age). when that becomes a political platform, people will call you out on it. whining about mean secularists doesn't cut it. science -- and the law -- can't work based on scripture just because we don't want to offend religious people.

you know, I'm all in favor of teaching creationism in schools. as Religion. the Hebrew Bible, the Gospels, the Upanishads, the Koran -- it's all interesting, it's all cool. inform kids about them. but it's not Science. it's Literature.

thinking that Genesis (the Book, not the band) and Darwin deserve the same place in school or in the political discourse is insanity.
posted by matteo at 12:21 PM on September 7, 2008 [6 favorites]

Look at his 96 year old mom-spry and healthy and in attendance at the convention....

If that is relevant, then you should also consider that his father, John S. McCain Jr., died at 70.
posted by gruchall at 12:27 PM on September 7, 2008 [3 favorites]

and secularists to live under rules they know to be based on ancient fiction.
posted by matteo at 12:27 PM on September 7, 2008

Traditionally woman take care of the children on a day to day basis, while the man is away earning the cash to support the family. So it's not unreasonable for Americans to be questioning her judgment in this matter.

Oh! When you put it that way, it's not sexist at all!
posted by agregoli at 12:30 PM on September 7, 2008 [7 favorites]

Look at his 96 year old mom-spry and healthy and in attendance at the convention....
If that is relevant, then you should also consider that his father, John S. McCain Jr., died at 70.

And his grandfather, John McCain, Sr., died at 61.
posted by Flunkie at 12:35 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

I don't imagne Hagee matters to many folks.

He mattered enough to John McCain that McCain actively sought out Hagee's endorsement.
posted by Flunkie at 12:37 PM on September 7, 2008 [3 favorites]

Brandon, from what I have read, her husband is gonna be Mr. Mom Do you have a source for that?

Where is a reliable source that he has indeed been Mr. Mom? Surely not Steve Schmidt and others who have flately lied (e.g. Bridge to Nowhere, travel to Ireland, etc) about details of the Palins over the past week.
posted by ericb at 12:38 PM on September 7, 2008

Look, folks, age nonwithstanding, I think McCain has enough good years left in him.

That it's two years past its failure rating notwithstanding, my water heater might have good years left in it too. Or it might fail, at any time. But if my water heater fails, it doesn't get replaced by a mysterious black box that I'm not allowed to ask questions about.

I wish McCain the best of health and hope he has many good years ahead of him. Realistically speaking, he stands a significant chance of dying in the next four, however, and no amount of well-wishing or hand-waving will take the implications of that fact of the table.
posted by cortex at 12:38 PM on September 7, 2008 [21 favorites]

...or going to be Mr. Mom in the near future?
posted by ericb at 12:39 PM on September 7, 2008

Reminder: cillit bang made a thingamajig that displays only the last 100 comments in the thread. It's handy.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 12:45 PM on September 7, 2008

...the Republican Party does -- the Bible is a science book and a law manual for them...

Actually, I think "the Republican Party" probably believes a lot of different and contradictory things about religion. The one thing they all believe is that they should be in charge. And they know the only way they'll get to be in charge is to win the votes of the portion of the populace that does believe the Bible is a science book--a group which is a small subset of the people who identify as Christian, and a smaller subset of people of faith.

It's a strategy. I think it's an effective one--judging by the last eight years and the possibility of the next four.

I think an effective strategy on the Democratic side might include avoiding the message: NYAH NYAH NYAH, YOUR MAN IN THE SKY IS BULLSHIT!

(I'm an agnostic, secular, Buddhist-leaning Jew, if you're interested.)
posted by neroli at 12:47 PM on September 7, 2008

But if my water heater fails, it doesn't get replaced by a mysterious black box that I'm not allowed to ask questions about.

I dunno, cortex, have you checked behind your water heater recently? The black box might be hiding out, like Sarah Palin from the press. If you do find the mysterious black box, the following disclaimers apply:

* Warning: Pregnant women, the elderly and children under 10 should avoid prolonged exposure to Mysterious Black Box.
* Caution: Mysterious Black Box may suddenly accelerate to dangerous speeds.
* Mysterious Black BoxContains a liquid core, which, if exposed due to rupture, should not be touched, inhaled, or looked at.
* Do not use Mysterious Black Box on concrete.

Discontinue use of Mysterious Black Box if any of the following occurs:

* Itching
* Vertigo
* Dizziness
* Tingling in extremities
* Loss of balance or coordination
* Slurred speech
* Temporary blindness
* Profuse sweating
* Voting Republican

If Mysterious Black Box begins to smoke, get away immediately. Seek shelter and cover head.
Mysterious Black Box may stick to certain types of skin.
When not in use, Mysterious Black Box should be returned to its special container and kept under refrigeration...
Failure to do so relieves the makers of Mysterious Black Box, Wacky Products Incorporated, and its parent company Global Chemical Unlimited, of any and all liability.
Ingredients of Mysterious Black Box include an unknown glowing substance which fell to Earth, presumably from outer space.
Mysterious Black Box has been shipped to our troops in Saudi Arabia and is also being dropped by our warplanes on Iraq.

Do not taunt Mysterious Black Box.

Mysterious Black Box comes with a lifetime guarantee.

Mysterious Black Box: ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!
posted by bitter-girl.com at 12:50 PM on September 7, 2008 [6 favorites]

He mattered enough to John McCain that McCain actively sought out Hagee's endorsement
I think that says more about an unfortunate ignorance on the part of John "I loathe the Religious Right as of Campaign 2000" McCain's handlers than it does about who the majority of Evangelicals might respect and admire in actuality.
posted by dawson at 12:56 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

her husband is gonna be Mr. Mom and is overseeing the day to day stuff

How so? Everything I've read says he works week-on, week-off - hardly an ideal sitution for home-schooling the pregnant senior daughter and caring for the infant with disabilities.
posted by goo at 1:00 PM on September 7, 2008

you know, I adore FireFox, but with the Google Chrome this thread loads (for me) in under ten seconds. FF is taking nearly 3 (!) minutes. I predict a 10,000 comment thread.
posted by dawson at 1:03 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think that says more about an unfortunate ignorance on the part of John "I loathe the Religious Right as of Campaign 2000" McCain's handlers than it does about who the majority of Evangelicals might respect and admire in actuality.

I think it says more about the judgment of a man who is asking us to make him the most powerful person on earth.
posted by Flunkie at 1:10 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

She's a woman, which is different from most other American politicians with under-age children. Traditionally woman take care of the children on a day to day basis, while the man is away earning the cash to support the family. So it's not unreasonable for Americans to be questioning her judgment in this matter.

So, you're saying that this line of criticism is okay because American society is sexist in its division of labour (denying that men can be good parents too), and we don't want to challenge that at all.

I'm guessing you don't have any children, if you can't see why having a five month old baby (even without special needs) might make it difficult to perform any difficult job well.

This may be a valid concern - not the fact that she has children, but that she has a very young child who is disabled.

But I still ask - isn't it her right to make this choice? It's something she has to negotiate with her husband and their other children, and it's a choice many people with children who also work long hours make everyday. It's not like she won't be able to afford all the childcare she needs.

And I seriously doubt we would even be having this conversation if she were male.

I don't like Palin, though I dislike her no more than any other candidate who would support McCain's platform. But this questioning of her mothering is just so double standard, and I find it distasteful.

It's also playing right into the Republican playbook, making the election about personalities and not issues. They know that their platform isn't any good, and the more that people talk about whether Sarah Palin is a good enough mother (and thus lose their credibility on gender issues), this is all the better - because it means that no one is talking about McCain's "country-club economics".

(Yeah, I know the last is an Obama/Biden talking point - I would call it "mathematically and morally challenged" economics myself.)
posted by jb at 1:11 PM on September 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

Since neither Palin is around to do that, well who is taking care of the kid? Why isn't it Sarah Palin? Is she really choosing to be Vice President over the direct day to day care of her newborn?

Why is the mother always the default caregiver? Nobody asked these questions about Barack Obama- and Michelle works, too! If Palin is choosing to be Vice President over direct day to day care of her newborn, so what? Is there something wrong with hiring a caregiver? Particularly for a child who will need special attention due to his medical needs?
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 1:24 PM on September 7, 2008 [3 favorites]

I don't imagne Hagee matters to many folks.
He mattered enough to John McCain that McCain actively sought out Hagee's endorsement.

And though McCain claims to have repudiated Hagee's endorsement, he never returned Hagee's $1000 contribution to his campaign.
posted by jonp72 at 1:26 PM on September 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

Why would a mother, a Christian mother of five children, want to go to Washington, and leave the care of her children to others? That does not make sense! But more important, you have to ask yourself: what does that have to do with this election? Nothing. Ladies, and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this election! It does not make sense! Look at me. I’m a hired Republican operative, and I’m talkin’ about motherhood! Does that make sense? Ladies, and gentlemen, I am not making any sense!
posted by neroli at 1:31 PM on September 7, 2008 [3 favorites]

The Obama campaign really, really needs to make some kind of big announcement to partially snuff out the media buzz around Palin, which right now is like an out-of-control burning oil well geyser. And those, you fight by letting off a huge explosion to deprive them of oxygen. They can then return to her lack of experience and fundamentalist views - i.e., the real reasons to note vote for her - in a week or two, while at the same time ramping up the focus on McCain. I said right at the beginning that their best policy was to ignore Palin as a nonentity and to some extent that is still true, but this media feeding frenzy is a huge distraction from a campaign Obama was winning, and f goes on and on Lacy Peterson style.....

But what kind of announcement? Maybe Michelle Obama could join the marines or something.
posted by Rumple at 1:32 PM on September 7, 2008

and has already admitted to taking Ambien

I hereby admit that I took Ambien a few times. I've had Ibuprofen as recently as last week.
posted by lukemeister at 1:32 PM on September 7, 2008

This may be a valid concern - not the fact that she has children, but that she has a very young child who is disabled.But I still ask - isn't it her right to make this choice? It's something she has to negotiate with her husband and their other children, and it's a choice many people with children who also work long hours make everyday. It's not like she won't be able to afford all the childcare she needs. And I seriously doubt we would even be having this conversation if she were male.

Granted, this is a tricky discussion, rooted in gender roles, so sexism can always creep in. How kids are treated DOES come up for men, though -- Bush with his wild daughters, Barack generally shielding his girls (but bringing them into one interview), the Clintons and Chelsea (who I think they shielded very admirably.)

Sure, Todd COULD parent full time. I did, for a while. The Palins' cultural conservativism makes that less likely, him being a hyper-macho snow machine champ, North Slope welding fisherman who meddles constantly in the governor's office. I grew up with a lawyer mom, so there's no dissonance for me.

Best case is, Sarah's parents are taking care of the baby (and the pregnant daughter). But if she has any heart at all, this will pull her away from work, as it should with any parent male or female of an infant. That's why very few politicians have babies, and ones who do (eg Jane Swift) often express regrets.
posted by msalt at 1:39 PM on September 7, 2008

I worked for a time at a Maine summer camp, populated by children of the New York and Boston elite. A snippet of a conversation with a ten year old:
"So, Jason, what do your parents do?"
"Oh, you know. My dad's a neurosurgeon and my mom's an associate editor at the New York Times."

The camp was eight weeks long, and cost something like $8000. The "Are you excited to see your parents?" question was verbotten, as a bunch of the kids were going on to a six-week music camp directly from our camp.

Have no illusions; I think that neither Sarah nor Ted Palin will have any role in the raising of their children. That is what money is for.

Now, the fact is that boarding schools and summer programs of arbitrary length aren't available to the middle class. In that context, it makes sense to have a discussion of who's raising the children when both parents are committed to 80-hour work weeks, and whether the attached answers are sexist or not. But in this case, I don't see any reason to believe there will be such problems, as the Palins can easily parent by proxy.
posted by kaibutsu at 1:40 PM on September 7, 2008

I don't imagne Hagee matters to many folks. He's as 'out there' as Rev Wright. Be assured he does not represent most Evangelicals, who would more identify with, say Rick Warren or Bill Hybels or perhaps Os Guinness. To be sure the extremists have followers, but that doesn't mean the 'tee vee revs' speak for the majority of Christians.

Don't condescend to me with this hand-waving and "Nothing to see here!" theatrics. Hagee may not matter much to you, but he matters a lot to me, because his theological impact on American foreign policy is absolutely disastrous. The Middle East needs to be stabilized, not made into a staging ground for Armageddon.

In addition, his Wikipedia entry claims that at least two of his books (The Beginning of the End and Final Dawn Over Jerusalem) were both #1 best sellers on the New York Times Best Seller List. Those books aren't just buying themselves. And according to a poll of ministers by the Barna Research Group, Hagee is listed in the top ten of the most trusted spokespersons for Christianity among Pentecostal ministers. Although Hagee may not be beloved in all branches of conservative Protestantism, he certainly has enough influence to make me worry about his impact on foreign policy in the Middle East.
posted by jonp72 at 1:56 PM on September 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

As the Daily Show pointed out, parts of McCain's acceptance speech are almost word-for-word with Bush's acceptance speech in 2000. And I was struck by how young Bush looked in 2000; the office really ages you.

There are two things to look at when looking at a candidate-does he or she share my core values?

Is honesty one of your core values? Isn't "thou shalt not lie" one of the commandments? Because both McCain and Palin have repeatedly lied about her qualifications. They've claimed she told Congress she didn't want the Bridge to Nowhere when in fact she lobbied for it. They've claimed she sold the previous governor's plane on eBay for a profit when she actually sold it for a loss through a broker. She even lied about winning Miss Congeniality. She's made two national speeches, and a startlingly high percentage of everything we know about her is untrue.
posted by kirkaracha at 1:57 PM on September 7, 2008 [7 favorites]

I don't see any reason to believe there will be such problems, as the Palins can easily parent by proxy.

Sure, but just admit to it. Don't make out like you're superwoman or Mr Mom when you're relying on hired/ family help just like everyone else is.
posted by goo at 1:57 PM on September 7, 2008

The Obama campaign really, really needs to make some kind of big announcement...

Or he could do this.

(Really, everybody should read this.)
posted by neroli at 2:00 PM on September 7, 2008 [4 favorites]

Guided tour of Wasilla
posted by Rumple at 2:01 PM on September 7, 2008

Best case is, Sarah's parents are taking care of the baby (and the pregnant daughter). But if she has any heart at all, this will pull her away from work, as it should with any parent male or female of an infant.

Sorry to burst the non-elitist fantasy bubble that some have built up around Palin, but the Palins have relied heavily on nannies. Sarah Palin mentions her nanny in her address to the Wasilla Assembly of God church, and the Palin family's reliance on nannies is also confirmed by the commenter "Sue Williams" on the Mudflats blog. ("Sue Williams" was the commenter who confirmed that Bristol Palin was pregnant, before the news media went public with that fact, while most Daily Kos posters were pushing the "Trig is Bristol's baby!" conspiracy theory.)
posted by jonp72 at 2:02 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

Democratic side might include avoiding the message: NYAH NYAH NYAH, YOUR MAN IN THE SKY IS BULLSHIT!

I'd say a it's small minorty of Democrats who might even say NYAH NYAH NYAH, YOUR MAN IN THE SKY IS BULLSHIT!

FYI ... How Does the Faith of Republicans, Democrats Measure Up? [January 2007]

"In the run-up to the 2008 presidential election, the Barna Group released a report measuring Republicans and Democrats on Christian commitment.

The new survey, based on interviews with 1,003 adults in January 2007, found that the gap between the two political parties in terms of Christian commitment is not large, as many might assume. The most significant differences were found in the area of beliefs rather than behavior.

According to survey results, 57 percent of Republicans assert that the Bible is accurate in all of the principles it teaches compared to 40 percent of Democrats. Republicans are also twice as likely to believe Satan is a real spiritual entity (33 percent versus 17 percent); more likely to reject the idea that good works can earn salvation (35 percent versus 23 percent); more commonly describe themselves as absolutely committed to Christianity (61 percent versus 48 percent); more likely to deem their religious faith to be important in their life (77 percent versus 67 percent); and more likely to believe that God is the all-knowing, perfect Creator and Ruler of the universe (75 percent to 65 percent).

Overall, 51 percent of Republicans qualify as born-again Christians, according to the Barna Group, compared to 38 percent of Democrats.

...Broken down to denominational affiliation, the survey found that 23 percent of Republicans and 27 percent of Democrats are Catholic; 36 percent of Republicans and 31 percent of Democrats are non-mainline Protestants; and 21 percent of Republicans and 13 percent of Democrats are mainline Protestants."

posted by ericb at 2:02 PM on September 7, 2008

I think it says more about the judgment of a man who is asking us to make him the most powerful person on earth.

Yep. John McCain actively sought Rev. Hagee's endorsement. He recieved it. Then ... a number of embarassing episodes from Hagee's past were uncovered by the press. McCain had to ditch the endorsement and renege on any potential advisory role for Hagee. McCain didn't fully vet Hagee. Sound familiar?
posted by ericb at 2:07 PM on September 7, 2008

*received*
posted by ericb at 2:09 PM on September 7, 2008

Isn't "thou shalt not lie" one of the commandments?

No, it isn't. There's "thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor," but that's different.
posted by nasreddin at 2:53 PM on September 7, 2008

I am astonished that Palin was able to work right until her water broke and got back to work three days after that.

She was back at work the day after her youngest daughter was born.

As a life-long feminist I have no problem asking the question, "Who is taking care of the kids?" So far it isn't Todd, but maybe it will be Todd if they win the election. I don't know who has been taking care of the kids the entire time she has been Governor because Todd has been working. No nannies have been reported so it has probably been a patchwork of grandmas and friends and day care just like every other working mom out there. If Sarah Palin is elected VP of the United States, there will undoubtedly be at least one Nanny.

I do feel bad for Bristol because I can't imagine there has been much time for helping supervise her home schooling but if her mom is VP of the United States, the world will open up for her. Come to think of it, she should hold off on the wedding; if mom is VP or even President, Bristol might have a lot more choices.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 2:56 PM on September 7, 2008

I get nervous when folks start to talk about core values and such. They sound like good things that no one could possibly object to, until you start to look at them closely, or in real life contexts.

Murder? Surely we can all agree that is wrong. Except, well, there are some folks who need killing. It might be the person attacking your cat or kids, soldiers who have invaded your country or your mother, who now has severe Alzheimer's, but who, years ago, before it manifested, begged you to kill her if she ever lost her mind.

Lying? Oh, yes. Very bad. Even to hide a surprise party for the kid next door. Or to spare a friend embarrassment when the truth serves no purpose. Santa Claus - there is some serious evil lying there.

I suppose this all makes me a moral relativist. I was raised that being an adult meant you knew when to break the rules, and you were willing to pay the consequences. I guess that means critical thinking is one of my core values. It is one I fail at sometimes, but I try to keep it up.
posted by QIbHom at 3:04 PM on September 7, 2008

I am astonished that Palin was able to work right until her water broke and got back to work three days after that.
I debated, before, saying this, because I don't want to diminish the pain of carrying and bearing a child. but it's just really not such a big deal in most of the world.
My dad, born the '36 as the last of 13 kids, remembers several occasions wworking in the tobacco and cotton fields when Black women worked, went behind a barn and gave birth, and were back in the field, all within an hour. My mom, one of 8, remembers that white women often took to bed for days and were prone to fainting and such.
Strong women with decent diets (and forgive me for the generality) in most of the world (China, India, Africa) would probably not bat an eye at Palin's delivery.
It is, at the very least, not astonishing to return to work 3 days after birth, and certainly not to work up until the water breaks.
I really, really wish we were not discussing this. I wonder, how did mom Barak's pregnancy's go? Somehow I doubt she was abed 3 days later. Yet I've not heard a thing about her childbirth experiences. Not that I wish to or deem it important. Even if she were running for veep.
posted by dawson at 3:23 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

The Obama campaign really, really needs to make some kind of big announcement...

Or he could do this. (Really, everybody should read this.)

I'd say Obama was smart to check hasty, pointed-finger attitude when responding to the press over questions which, while seemingly basic ("Your opinion of McCain's VP pick?"), we've seen are increasingly used as bait for answers that will be turned on him by the right while they're in defensive mode over their ticket.
Yeah, you'd think he ought to call a spade a spade -- in this case, a lie a Lie, ad infinitum.
We can offer that part of the electorate -- the part that continues to swell the polls' high approval results for Palin among her party -- all the facts that have been asserted in kirkaracha's query just now. It won't matter. The party that votes together, denies together. Self-denial thrives among the voters gullible enough to be continuously duped by demagogues like Pat Robertson and preachers like Hagee.
And while it's been pointed out that Hagee extremists represent a bit-portion of evangelicals overall, there's willful ignorance perpetuated among Americans at large, as documented in Time's recent report on opinion surveys:

after the bipartisan, independent 9/11 Commission reported that Saddam Hussein had had nothing to do with al-Qaeda's assaults on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, 50 percent of Americans still insisted that he did.

So while neroli's linked blogger Steve Almond is calling out for Obama to be more direct, I figure Obama and Biden will do so when the time is right. Doing this now invites the voters already programmed *against* him to follow their leaders' example with derisive accusations ("Calling her a Liar? How unfair/disrespectful/unprofessional!") etc. Playing it cool gives the opposition much less bait to fling about, and taking the higher ground reinforces among Obama's base what they've already come to admire about him.

The McCain camp have already got a rope of their own making lengthy enough to hang themselves with. Why get in their way with harsh accusations when they've done such a good job implicating themselves?
posted by skyper at 3:26 PM on September 7, 2008

Sorry. Mom Obama. Ms Michelle.
posted by dawson at 3:27 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

The funny, via Wonkette: "half-ass semi-comical crimes committed by that beloved Alaskan anger-bear, Sarah Palin"

The serious: When they lie, call them liars

A comment on the second-linked story read:

The problem is that calling Palin or McCain a liar is ineffective. Lying is not considered misbehavior by their ilk. The republicans are masters of distraction. Lying, distortion, and other fallacious tactics are regarded as honorable because they are saving America from evil liberal values.

So. I ask the MeFi hivemind, and in particular its conservatives -- since from my worldview, I find that quote pretty accurate -- do you believe that's true? Is it ok to lie, misdirect or otherwise mislead the public if you are "protecting" them from values, choices or actions you find abhorrent? Is anything-goes ok in an election, in that case?
posted by bitter-girl.com at 3:28 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

The claim that Sarah Palin deserves to be Vice President because she is supposedly a good mother is foolish and offensive. If you believe this claim—and spend your time defending it—you have played right into the hands of the Republican distraction machine.

The claim that Sarah Palin does not deserve to be Vice President because she is supposedly a bad mother is foolish and offensive. If you believe this claim—and spend your time defending it—you have played right into the hands of the Republican distraction machine.
posted by neroli at 3:31 PM on September 7, 2008 [7 favorites]

ericb, perhaps Hagee is more influential than I though. I still see his followers as I do, say, Star War geeks (the kind who dress up at conventions). I just intuitively doubt that much of a voter block is really die hard Hagee. Perhaps I'm overly optimistic.
posted by dawson at 3:35 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

(Sorry for the distraction. I was getting fed up with all the motherhood talk. I think the lying conversation is much more interesting.)
posted by neroli at 3:37 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

Dear lord, I sound like English is my 5th language and I'm 7 sheets to the wind.
posted by dawson at 3:46 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

First it was trumped up sex or teen pregnancy scandals. Then endless fetish of abortion. Now it's "Mr. Mom."

Flagpole. Turd. Salute.

Focus people. Nobody should care if she leaves her kids to be raised by wolves or the secret service. It's irrelevant. For the umpteenth time: Palin is not qualified to lead the most powerful nation (at least for the next four or five years anyway until the Republicans complete their rape of the country) in the HISTORY of mankind. Period.

There are half a dozen other highly qualified women in the GOP who could have expressed anti-abortion stances. They just aren't young-ish, hot-ish, religious fanatics.

I'm embarrassed for the Republicans. The party of "Change?" Talk about "flip-flopping." How stupid do you have to be to buy that? C'mon.

I honestly thought McCain would at least restore some shred of honor back to the party. But as GOP operatives like Peggy Noonan, who have been caught in unguarded moments, have been recorded saying: McCain has sold his soul. He has demonstrated he doesn't want to govern. He just wants to be elected. I weep for this country.
posted by tkchrist at 4:02 PM on September 7, 2008 [10 favorites]

neroli beat me to it.
posted by tkchrist at 4:04 PM on September 7, 2008

It's true that McCain and Palin's ilk don't bat an eye at lying. But their ilk are people on the inside of the republican deception machine. I think it could be worth it to mention to the greater public that McCain and Palin are living caricatures of the greedy, deceptive politicians that have such a deep resonance in the American psyche. It would be a great line of attack for, say, Biden to take. Or MoveOn, if they were still allowed to play the attacks.
posted by kaibutsu at 4:06 PM on September 7, 2008

So whats this about cortex's water breaking?
posted by Sailormom at 4:07 PM on September 7, 2008 [3 favorites]

that was cortex's water heater. Stop extrapolating, dammit.
posted by dawson at 4:13 PM on September 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

So. I ask the MeFi hivemind, and in particular its conservatives -- since from my worldview, I find that quote pretty accurate -- do you believe that's true?

Of course that's true.

Yellow cake?

The Saddam/Al Quaeda Connection?

The Swift boating of Kerry?

Atheist Karl Rove complaining two months ago about the governor of Virginia/former mayor of Richmond (pop 200,000) as being too inexperienced to be VP. The same Rove now with a straight face claiming Sarah Palin, a half term governor/former mayor of Alaska's meth capitol, Wassila, (pop 7000), as having enough foreign policy experience to be VP.

Giuliani claiming that the DNC didn't even mention 9/11. When in fact they mentioned it exactly the same number of times the RNC did.

O'Really with indignation proclaiming Obama's campaign (with no evidence and unable to name single staffer) was circulating rumors about Palins kid being pregnant - and how dare they interfere with this precious family privacy? Rewind to four months ago the same O'Really screaming into the camera about how bad Jamie Lynn Spears parents must be for letting her get knocked up and devoting show after show moralizing bout it.

Fuck these douche bags.
posted by tkchrist at 4:19 PM on September 7, 2008 [10 favorites]

There's speculation it wasn't really his water heater.
posted by Balonious Assault at 4:20 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

tk: loose with 'fuck's
posted by dawson at 4:22 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

The contractions have been four years apart for a while now.
posted by cortex at 4:24 PM on September 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

Only 885 comments to go until we reach 5000. We can do it!
posted by klausness at 4:26 PM on September 7, 2008

ericb, perhaps Hagee is more influential than I though.

I've made no claims as to what influence Hagee might/might not have.

Possibly, you are refering to jonp72's comment above.
posted by ericb at 4:34 PM on September 7, 2008

Obama at the RNC
posted by jjoye at 4:36 PM on September 7, 2008 [8 favorites]

tk: loose with 'fuck's

Hey. That's between me, my wife, our pastor, my doctor... and of course my pimp.
posted by tkchrist at 4:39 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

...and the entire Republican party, who are, of course, entitled to tell you what to do with them, tkchrist!
posted by bitter-girl.com at 5:07 PM on September 7, 2008

sorry, ericb. I figured I had a 20% chance of getting it right by just using yr name.
posted by dawson at 5:13 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

Drudge: NYT PREPARES TO FRONT EXPOSE ON PALIN'S BABY... DEVELOPING...

huh?

But then it has been.... 4017 since your most recent comment... but I am really trying to stay unconfused.
posted by R. Mutt at 5:15 PM on September 7, 2008

On the topic of "Who is Taking Care of the Kids":

The family still lives in Wasilla most of the time, in an airy wood-frame house on the shore of Lake Lucille, upscale by Alaskan standards. The governor's mansion in Juneau, the state capital, is home only when the legislature is in session, and even then to only some of the family. The Palins enrolled the two youngest girls in Juneau schools, but Bristol went mid-school-year to live with her aunt in Anchorage, finishing at the city's West High School.

All of this complicated the Palins' child care matrix. In Wasilla the couple relied heavily on Sarah's parents, retired teachers whose two-story log home is a few miles away, a mound of moose antlers in the yard. Chuck and Sally Heath, who moved to Alaska when Sarah was 2 months old, routinely took the kids when Todd was on the Slope and Sarah politicking. Sarah's sisters Molly and Heather pitched in as well.

On the subject of Lying

"Sarah Palin, a commercial fisherman from Wasilla, told her husband on Tuesday she was driving to Anchorage to shop at Costco. Instead, she headed straight for Ivana. And there, at J.C. Penney's cosmetic department, was Ivana, the former Mrs. Donald Trump
...........................................................................................
Frontiersman columnist Paul Stuart wrote that after Palin had criticized her opponent for using City Hall resources for political gain, "when Palin was asked back then (by me) why the lodge where she claimed, in her campaign, to have gained her management experience, had no record of a borough business license or of paying any bed tax, she paused and said it might have been because the place had no clients for a year or so." In an article describing the possibility of recalling Palin, the Frontiersman wrote the "reasons include Palin's alleged falsification of her credentials during the campaign last fall."
...........................................................................................

A Frontiersman editorial wrote, "Wasilla residents have been subjected to attempts to unlawfully appoint council members, statements that have been shown to be patently untrue, unrepentant backpedaling, and incessant whining that her only enemies are the press and a few disgruntled supporters of former Mayor John Stein." [Frontiersman editorial, 2/7/97]

McCain leading Obama in Gallup Poll, 48 percent to 45 percent.

Obama leading McCain in Philip Morris Poll, 3 packs/day to 0 packs/day.
posted by Rafaelloello at 5:16 PM on September 7, 2008

Why is the mother always the default caregiver?

Tradition? Biology? I don't know, but it's a good question.

Nobody asked these questions about Barack Obama- and Michelle works, too!

The Obamas don't have a newborn at home or pregnant teenager. Their job is much easier, parent wise, as opposed to the Palins.

If Palin is choosing to be Vice President over direct day to day care of her newborn, so what? Is there something wrong with hiring a caregiver? Particularly for a child who will need special attention due to his medical needs?

If she's from the party of family values, and doesn't seem to be living up to family values, ya gotta wonder...

So, you're saying that this line of criticism is okay because American society is sexist in its division of labour (denying that men can be good parents too), and we don't want to challenge that at all.

It's not sexist to realize that women have been the primary caretakers of children since forever and then point out that because of that, it isn't odd that people assume Palin is the primary caretaker of the kids.

Also, I don't think American society says that men can be good parents, merely that the parental roles are different.

But I still ask - isn't it her right to make this choice?

No one said it wasn't her right, so I don't know why you're injecting that question into the discussion.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:16 PM on September 7, 2008

Obama "my Muslim faith."
posted by dawson at 5:25 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

McCain leading Obama in Gallup Poll, 48 percent to 45 percent.

Obama leading McCain in Philip Morris Poll, 3 packs/day to 0 packs/day.

I know it might be too much to ask, but you might want to try looking at averages compiled from multiple polls, instead of cherry-picking one.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:29 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

pollster.com also does excellent averages and has a number of good papers explaining their methods and the strengths/weaknesses/biases of each poll and each polling company.
posted by Rumple at 5:40 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

I was trying to track down this story (from a comment in Mudflats):

All I Saw (11:33:53) :
The Anchorage Daily News just reported that someone is proposing a lakeside trail around the lake Palin lives on, (unprecedented in Wasilla) both of which are within walking distance of the sport’s facility which was built to serve youth hockey.

Anyone that is familiar with Wasilla knows that nothing is within walking distance of anywhere, AND there are virtually NO sidewalks which forces pedestrians to walk in the street in the winter months when the snow piles up.

Unbelievable, so much for “reformer” - she’s chosen infrastructure projects that benefit her PERSONALLY.

when I found this story: State paid for trip when Palin told students to pray for pipeline

Gov. Sarah Palin used state funds in June when she traveled from Juneau to Wasilla to speak to graduating evangelical students and urge them to fan out through Alaska "to make sure God's will be done here."[...]The plane tickets cost the state $519.50, and she claimed an additional $120 for meals and other expenses.[...]

"What I need to do is strike a deal with you guys as you go out throughout Alaska -- I can do my part in doing things like working really, really hard to get a natural gas pipeline." Palin said. "Pray about that also. I think God's will has to be done, in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built, so pray for that.

So you heard it from Sarah, it is God's will that the gas pipeline gets built. I'm so glad that Sarah has a direct pipeline to God because that way we can all be sure that Sarah knows what is best for America AND Alaska.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:49 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm telling you, "The Frontiersman" back issues need to be on-line. Hopefully somebody in the media is up there now going through all the back issues with a fine-toothed comb looking for more background, but what they leave out as "unimportant" may make for some very interesting reading. Anybody want to volunteer to fly up to Wasilla and start scanning?

Or Chicago or Washington.

Obama talking about McCain saying McCain never personally made statements about Barack having a muslim faith

I saw that this morning, in the 5-10 minutes or so that I watched that interview. Ask somebody some question long enough, again and again, and there's going to be gaffes. he should do a palin and just refuse to talk to the media. I'm really starting to wonder about how much of a joke this country is. I know I'm going to lash out at somebody when they say something stupid about this. And I'm trying to keep my wits about me, but at some point when you watch idiocy flourish, you just can't take it any more. And I'm almost to the point where I scream at somebody.

I'm sure McCain is leading in the polls. Because the media has failed us. Everything points to a huge scandal/scheme of history making proportions by the republicans, and things are going on pretty much as normal.
posted by cashman at 5:52 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

Why is the mother always the default caregiver?

I DO have to go make dinner, but I wanted to put my two cents in. In the first year the mom has the whatchamacallits...those nipple things? And yeah I know all about pumping and formula and even wet nurses. But, if it is possible to keep mommy and baby together for at least a year it makes feeding a whole lot easier.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 5:53 PM on September 7, 2008

Obama "my Muslim faith."

Yes, the less intelligent will try to make hay with this, proving the low IQ are just that. If you actually read what he was saying in the context of the interview, he was referring to the canard that his faith was Muslim, not that he was actually Muslim. There is nothing to see here. Stephanopolis misunderstood and corrected him, so he just went along rather than make a big deal of it. (cross posted)
posted by Mental Wimp at 6:02 PM on September 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

um, I know all that Mental. That wasn't my point.
posted by dawson at 6:07 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

"Muslim faith" is actually a bit redundant. A Muslim is "one who submits to God." So the 'faith' bit is inherent. If one is speaking Arabic, many Christians are Muslims.

Of course, I missed the memo where all Muslims were declared evil sub-humans.
posted by QIbHom at 6:20 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

In case anyone wants to learn from my foolishness, this week I bought the National Enquirer for what I think was the first time in my life. There was nothing there I did not learn already here. Not sure what that means, but there you are.
posted by Morrigan at 6:25 PM on September 7, 2008

Of course, I missed the memo where all Muslims were declared evil sub-humans.

I'm pretty sure that was part of Giuliani's speech. Maybe it was Fred Thompson, though.
posted by Flunkie at 6:39 PM on September 7, 2008

In Hot Air, Allahpundit graciously, commendably denounces the "my Muslim faith" non-gaffe, and asks Obama supporters to do the same when it's the other way round.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:39 PM on September 7, 2008

You know, I never have, to my knowledge, said 'Muslim faith'. That was an Obama gaffe. No big deal.
posted by dawson at 6:44 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

McCain leading Obama in Gallup Poll, 48 percent to 45 percent.

Obama leading McCain in Philip Morris Poll, 3 packs/day to 0 packs/day.

I know it might be too much to ask, but you might want to try looking at averages compiled from multiple polls, instead of cherry-picking one.

Sorry, when it comes to cigarettes, I trust Philip Morris. I'm sure both sides will agree they are tops in their field.
posted by Rafaelloello at 7:12 PM on September 7, 2008

If you idiots think "who's taking care of the kids" is a relevant issue regarding Sarah Palin, you will lose and deserve to lose. There are millions of children in this country (and others) who are being hurt by Palin-esque pollicies. Let's think about THOSE children and try to get others to, also.

Senator Obama is never going to keep all his supporters "on message" with him, unlike most of the Republicans who are willing to say anything "for the greater cause". We've already seen more Partisan Pundits of the Left questioning Obama's choice of Biden than Partisan Pundits of the Right questioning McCain's choice of Palin (at least publicly).

To me, the most effective argument against Palin is simple... she really is a George Bush Jr. clone with different plumbing. Since a large number of the people who were fooled by him in 2000 and/or 2004 have turned against him, showing off the similarities seem to be the best way to get them to see the light.

To appeal to Economic Conservatives, tell the truth about her "Bridge to Nowhere". I'd have accepted flip-flopping on it; you can't go anywhere in Alaska politics if you don't support leaching off the Federal Government. (The State of Alaska is America's biggest Welfare Mother) Which is bad enough. But she's outright lying about it. Her "Fiscal Conservative" and "Reform" stances are easily provable as pure PR BS.

Just avoid "Character Issues". The loudest "Character Based" people like konolia can dismiss nealy any personal bad actions as long as the candidate promotes "Character Based" oppressive policies and laws. Don't bother.
posted by wendell at 7:22 PM on September 7, 2008 [4 favorites]

My promise (read my lips):

I'll tell you why this is the greatest thread ever when it reaches 10,000 comments.
posted by Rafaelloello at 7:23 PM on September 7, 2008

Mike Huckabee just got in a good zinger on Gerardo (I quote from memory):
"What astounds me is, you have this woman who was a PTA leader, served on the city council, was mayor of her city, shot and dressed moose, fished in the North Sea, had 5 children, is Alaska's governor and all these angry left-wing bloggers, living in their mother's basements, say she has no experience."
posted by dawson at 7:36 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

Polls -- USA Today: McCain +10. McCain takes lead in RCP average for the first time since March.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 7:41 PM on September 7, 2008

She moved the North Sea to Alaska? Good golly, dawson, how much federal money did THAT cost? Oh, wait, what? Huckabee is ignorant of geography? You don't say.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 7:44 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

Mike Huckabee just got in a good zinger on Gerardo

Not really. That's pretty lame evidence that you're prepared to be president. Man these next few months are going to get on my last good nerve.
posted by cashman at 7:45 PM on September 7, 2008

Whoever wrote that for the Rush/Rove TalkingPoint Daily Email that Huckabee quoted is intentionally trying to pass off "experiences" as "practical experience." Which is why attacking Palin on "experience" is a loser's game. She has plenty of adequate experience, full qualifications and is on a fast-track to being an excellent Fascist Dictator. If that's what you want.
posted by wendell at 7:45 PM on September 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

Okay, so those numbers will dominate the conversation for the next week or so. I'm going to wait for Tuesday to see if anything pops up to either support or undermine my hypothesis, but for now this is certainly big.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 7:50 PM on September 7, 2008

bitter-girl, that was my fuck-up it looks like, he didn't mention the fishing gig. Anyway, it was just a money quote in one of those 4 people yelling usually obvious things.
I do like Susan Esterich, but why does she talk like that?
posted by dawson at 7:50 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

living in their mother's basements

Oh you have got to be kidding me.
posted by cortex at 7:51 PM on September 7, 2008

Mike Huckabee, Get out of my mother's basement! I didn't invite you in!
posted by lukemeister at 7:52 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

this week I bought the National Enquirer for what I think was the first time in my life. There was nothing there I did not learn already here.

Still worth it for the pics of Bat Boy on a snow machine.
posted by ryanrs at 7:53 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

i don't see what's so hard about dressing moose, they even come with their own clothes racks on their heads
posted by pyramid termite at 7:55 PM on September 7, 2008

cashman, folks!!! No one, me in particular, said the Huckster said she is prepared to be prez or anything other than it was a nice line. I agree that the next seven weeks will be hellish. I sorta wish it were over. mark these words, it's gonna get real ugly, on both sides. And people will be polarized. because we are so emotional and easy to manipulate. and all four on the tickets have ugly skeletons, as do most of us.
posted by dawson at 7:57 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

Mike Huckabee just got in a good zinger on Gerardo

That's no surprise. I always knew Huckabee was rico suave.
posted by jonp72 at 8:01 PM on September 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

um, cortex, perhaps it was better in context. I think I have a record as being anti-Huckster as my leader, but his 'aw shucks' humor can be nice in a tee vee shout fest.
Or maybe not. Anyway, I'm doing my part for the 10k thread watch!
posted by dawson at 8:03 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

"all these angry left-wing bloggers, living in their mother's basements, say she has no experience"

See, if we'd just solve the unwed mother/broken home problem the left wing would just disappear. Solution: Mandatory abortions for bastard pregnancies where bastard = parents not in covenant marriage. That'll eventually fix everything.
posted by Mitheral at 8:09 PM on September 7, 2008

And people will be polarized.

Will be? I need to take a page from tkchrist's book and go on a couple of rants, because I think I hold it all inside and then when i see stuff like MSNBC pulling Olbermann & Matthews as anchors (though they remain as analysts), I get a little upset. And I'm not even a fan of either one.

But anyway, just think about it - this thread has more than four thousand one hundred comments over going on a week and a half, and still Sarah Palin, who could easily become the president of the united states by this time next year - hasn't even been interviewed by the media, has answered no questions, and there are a torrent of scandals and lies she's told that are just sitting there.

I can only hope that this comes back to bite them in the ass in some kind of way, as it should. It's total b.s.
posted by cashman at 8:10 PM on September 7, 2008

OK, OK. I made it all up for personal attention. Huck wasn't even to the tube at all! It was just a small lie. I never thought it would take flight.
damn these are good mojiotos
but really he was on Geraldo. And did say something very close to what I quoted. Now I'm watching the Bears/Colts game. But does Fox usually have a Cilias/Vigria ad every commercial break? or is that more of an AskMe question?
posted by dawson at 8:10 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

The aforementioned NYT article on Olbermann, Matthews.
posted by cashman at 8:11 PM on September 7, 2008

these angry left-wing bloggers, living in their mother's basements, say she has no experience

The wife and me are in mom's basement 'cause we can't afford a house and the school loans are killing us on our service industry jobs, so...aw hell, I'm late for my double shift..
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:23 PM on September 7, 2008 [5 favorites]

I heart you BB.
posted by dawson at 8:27 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

After reading the NYT article, I think I want to send Keith Olbermann a fruit basket or something. I didn't catch his comment to Joe Scarborough the first time around.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 8:29 PM on September 7, 2008

NYT piece on Palin's latest pregnancy.
posted by Bookhouse at 8:35 PM on September 7, 2008

Chris Matthews I like. Keith can rot in ratings hades. he's the BillO of the left. I loathe them both. Besides those MSNBC guys were acting like drama queen prison bitches last week.
posted by dawson at 8:35 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

It is not a lie to say she put the plane on ebay when in fact she did put the plane on ebay but it didn't sell. She never said she sold it at a profit.

I don't like her either, folks, but let's not make things up.
posted by onlyconnect at 8:36 PM on September 7, 2008

And if you're wondering how they're planning to steal the election this year in Ohio, well, here you go.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 8:39 PM on September 7, 2008 [3 favorites]

onlyconnect, I am with you, 100%, and I don't know the details of the ebay thing, but McCain said, and I heard him, that she 'sold it on ebay'....now perhaps it's a figure of speech, and again I don't know the details, and I doubt they would make it a talking point if it were untrue, but John did say 'sold'.
posted by dawson at 8:44 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

She never said she sold it at a profit.

McCain did: “You know what I enjoyed the most? She took the luxury jet that was acquired by her predecessor, and sold it on eBay—and made a profit!”
posted by ijoshua at 8:46 PM on September 7, 2008 [7 favorites]

Ah, crap. That link should be: McCain did
posted by ijoshua at 8:49 PM on September 7, 2008

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.
I've been following politics since Nixon. I have always loathed Cindy Mac.
On this CNN show I saw whilst flipping channels, she was 'defending' their affair."He had been separated 6 and 1/2 years" she said.
She didn't mention he was a POW for 5 and 1/2 of those years.
I'm a guy who loves Obama and hates Biden,and loves Palin, and hates McCain.
And as we are voting for pres.....
posted by dawson at 8:58 PM on September 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

I grew up in a political family (Mom was in the State legislature)and i think the questions about how she's gonna raise her kids are all off base. When you have a parent who's an elected official, everyone's life revolves around that, and you just get used to it. Time in office was no big deal, as it was actually pretty easy to get a routine in place, and there was always an assistant who's job was to know where Mom was at all times. Campaign time was when everything went haywire, but being ignored was never an issue, the hard part was trying to get a minute of alone time. You're pretty much always around people and always on your best behavior. But on the other hand you got to eat pizza 5 times a week. And you can get free tickets to anything. There's no such thing as "sold out"

Mostly though, being the child of an elected official was pretty awesome. There are tons of perks, and your only responsibility is not getting into too much trouble. Which is the only thing about the Bristol Palin pregnancy that bugs me, and the one thing I always hated about the Bush Twins. You learn pretty damn quick that your actions have bigger consequences than the other kids, and you know from day one that people will be all up in your business. Getting pregnant or arrested is just downright sloppy.

The downside: all your friends get to hit up your mom for kickass college and job recommendation letters, but you can't.

As to the rest of the Palin thing, I've come to the conclusion that her being unqualified, or a liar, or whatever is no big deal at all to whoever picked her. I think the Rove quote upthread from earlier in the month wasn't a dis on Kaine, but him floating the story out there to see what the reaction would be. It just dovetails a little too nicely. They won't be pressured to put in front of the Press too much either. They kept Bush Under wraps at first, and Cheny under wraps pretty much always.

It's time to recognize their governing style for what it is. Blunt force lying, lawyering up at the first sign of attack and making really big fights out of very small things so their enemies have noammo left for the important stuff. No smear is too shameful,and no double standard out of the realm of possibility. It doesn't matter how stupid or unprepared for the job, as long as you do what you're told. All of the things that were previously dealreakers for getting into public office are no longer relevant...as long as you're on their side.

Don't hide the crime, just be really, really, really stubborn if anyone calls you on it.

They've been doing since Clarence Thomas,if not before, and it's time to stop pretending that they're playing from the same playbook. It doesnt matter if they search Palin's house tomorrow and find clown makeup in the bathroom and dead drifters in the basement. They picked her, and that's it. Your only move now is to beat her.

And if you'll allow me to don my tinfoil hat for a second... I'm pretty convinced that if McCain wins he doesn't finish his term. If he doesn't die, he will wither get sick and resign, or they will talk him into doing something stupid,and then hang him out to dry, and he'll get booted. Then to deal with her "inexperience" they'll put some old school Cheney type in under her to actually run things. She really is Bush 2.0
posted by billyfleetwood at 9:04 PM on September 7, 2008 [12 favorites]

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing: "4128McCain leading Obama in Gallup Poll, 48 percent to 45 percent.

Obama leading McCain in Philip Morris Poll, 3 packs/day to 0 packs/day.

I know it might be too much to ask, but you might want to try looking at averages compiled from multiple polls, instead of cherry-picking one."

OK, I clicked on your links and McCain is still ahead in both of your links. I think Obama supporters are maybe spinning their wheels commenting in forums such as this thread where the cumulative effort amounts to little more than a circle-jerk of the like-minded. You're not converting any opposing votes, simply blowing smoke up the asses of your committed brethren.

Good job.
posted by Rafaelloello at 9:09 PM on September 7, 2008

A silly yet sincere question, if the top of the ticket were to die before 4 Nov, would his veep automatically become the parties nominee? And what of the veep then, how would s/he be chosen?
posted by dawson at 9:16 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

OK, I clicked on your links and McCain is still ahead in both of your links.

Be that as it may, my point was and is that multiple polls compiled still tend to paint a more accurate picture than a single source. And why are our choices between posting in this thread or trying to get out and talk to people?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:22 PM on September 7, 2008

rolling average of all National polls including the most recent.

(in any case, the most important question is the state-by-state breakdown, so if the convention bounce for McCain were to be concentrated in already-red states and represent previously indifferent fundamentalists then it is of less consequence than if it were to be newly decided true independents leaning his way)
posted by Rumple at 9:28 PM on September 7, 2008

Rafaelloello: You're not converting any opposing votes, simply blowing smoke up the asses of your committed brethren.

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing: And why are our choices between posting in this thread or trying to get out and talk to people?

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing: 90 comments
Rafaelloello: 7 comments
posted by dawson at 9:29 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

You're not converting any opposing votes, simply blowing smoke up the asses of your committed brethren.

This will heretofore be known pulling a Palin.
posted by billyfleetwood at 9:34 PM on September 7, 2008 [4 favorites]

Yes, how I find the time to live my life between comment posts is beyond me. I am literally chained to my desk.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:34 PM on September 7, 2008

McCain is likely to be ahead for the next 2 weeks or so, unless some major news breaks.
posted by empath at 9:44 PM on September 7, 2008

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing: "4177OK, I clicked on your links and McCain is still ahead in both of your links.

Be that as it may, my point was and is that multiple polls compiled still tend to paint a more accurate picture than a single source. And why are our choices between posting in this thread or trying to get out and talk to people?"

Hey, your choices are your choices. Direct your energies wherever you want to. I'm quite happy with your current direction/choices.
posted by Rafaelloello at 9:46 PM on September 7, 2008

if the top of the ticket were to die before 4 Nov, would his veep automatically become the parties nominee?

geez, dawson, don't you even check Yahoo Answers?

The short answer is: Nobody knows.
posted by lukemeister at 9:49 PM on September 7, 2008

I'm quite happy with your current direction/choices.

As am I. I know you don't actually know what my choices or "current directions" are, but I appreciate the vote of confidence nonetheless.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:50 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

thanks luke. I guess i missed yahoo last week. :)
odd that there are no plans in place for such an occasion...
posted by dawson at 9:56 PM on September 7, 2008

Marisa Stole the Precious Thing: "4185I'm quite happy with your current direction/choices.

As am I. I know you don't actually know what my choices or "current directions" are, but I appreciate the vote of confidence nonetheless."

Well, let's then just agree to agree. That works, doesn't it?
posted by Rafaelloello at 9:57 PM on September 7, 2008

dawson,

Sure. It was poignant to read the last paragraph, about how the electoral and popular vote might turn out differently in 2000.
posted by lukemeister at 10:07 PM on September 7, 2008

um, cortex, perhaps it was better in context

No, the only way it can be better is out of context, where the context is every lickshit smartass luddite for the last ten years rolling out that same weak jab when confronted by the idea that people on the internet might have an influence on their lives. People who have just finished marathons are less tired than that Grampa Asshole line.
posted by cortex at 10:09 PM on September 7, 2008 [4 favorites]

(Note: powerful annoyance directed at meme, not anyone in particular. Huck, if he even said that, borders on Not Knowing Better, even; I don't chew my mom out for forwarding stuff she should have checked Snopes about instead either.)
posted by cortex at 10:12 PM on September 7, 2008

Can't even pretend that I've slogged through all the comments on this FPP, but I like the early vintage posts:

Ugh, seventeen years old and keeping the baby? This will appeal to the white trash wing of the party, no doubt.

Ironic. Obama's mother also got knocked up and then married at 18. Does that appeal to left wing trash maybe?

Dumb comment, Jaydar. Maybe you feel clever stereotyping poorer whites? No doubt.

And what makes some of you assume that the evangelicals will abandon the ticket in droves now that news of the daughter's pregnancy is out? They don't all necessarily react that way. I knew of a pastor's young unmarried daughter who got pregnant and this Brooklyn church (w/thousands of members) knew about it and helped---i.e., contributed money towards the baby, offered moral/emotional support. How dare they not stone her? Some of you haven't a clue.

The uglier this gets, the angrier/more protective the right will get ---and they will look for even more personal dirt on Obama/Biden. And you can't say shit as you took the low road on this crap.

Smart. Very Smart.
posted by Rafaelloello at 10:13 PM on September 7, 2008

"What astounds me is, you have this woman who was a PTA leader, served on the city council, was mayor of her city, shot and dressed moose, fished in the North Sea, had 5 children, is Alaska's governor and all these angry left-wing bloggers, living in their mother's basements, say she has no experience."

SOMEONE IS PAYING ATTENTION TO US, YESSSSSSSSSSSSSS
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:16 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

And if you're wondering how they're planning to steal the election this year in Ohio, well, here you go.

Along similar lines, here is an appeal from Greg Palast: Obama Doesn't Sweat. He Should.
posted by Balonious Assault at 10:18 PM on September 7, 2008 [2 favorites]

cortex: "4187um, cortex, perhaps it was better in context

No, the only way it can be better is out of context, where the context is every lickshit smartass luddite for the last ten years rolling out that same weak jab when confronted by the idea that people on the internet might have an influence on their lives. People who have just finished marathons are less tired than that Grampa Asshole line."

Is this really from a MeFi modrator or did his ID get hijacked?
posted by Rafaelloello at 10:20 PM on September 7, 2008

I apologize for recycling the Huckster comment. I was on the net and the show was in the background and it seemed amusing at the time. Obviously all GOP peeps are reptilian Neanderthals who have zero sense of humor and Mike used a throwaway line for the cheap shot and i fell link, sink and hooker.
posted by dawson at 10:21 PM on September 7, 2008

Raf...everyone is human with their own, often fervent opinions. I don't think cortex was offensive at all with his observation. I like that the mods participate w/o an alias. But I do appreciate the vigilance on yr part. And I'm not sucking up to anyone.
posted by dawson at 10:27 PM on September 7, 2008

dawson: "4194Raf...everyone is human with their own, often fervent opinions. I don't think cortex was offensive at all with his observation. I like that the mods participate w/o an alias. But I do appreciate the vigilance on yr part. And I'm not sucking up to anyone."

Agreed. Having met Matt and Jessamyn and PB persoanlly, I guess I'm just peeved that cortex slighted me by not showing up in Cambridge. Just kidding. Actually glad to see he's as human as the rest of us. Damn, he can be so witty *AND* restrained most of the time.
posted by Rafaelloello at 10:33 PM on September 7, 2008

That line was so weak. Liberal bloggers are living in their mother-in-law's basement.
posted by lukemeister at 10:39 PM on September 7, 2008

cortex: "More graph fun: here's a pie chart of contributions to this thread by userid. Usernames would obviously make it more readable, but I'm not convinced this is even that interesting a view into the thread.

But a half hour hacking together the code to autogenerate it means I'm going to at least link it here."

I think it is great that there aren't usernames! I've been trying to make guesses at who has been posting the most, based on size of slice and low-vs.-high user id numbers. Then I plug them into the URL and see if I'm right! It's a Palin Thread Minigame!
posted by iamkimiam at 10:41 PM on September 7, 2008

Is this really from a MeFi modrator or did his ID get hijacked?

I curse often and express fervent, ranty opinions at least occasionally. The mom's-basement schtick is crappy low-brow humor on par with "diddling the altar boys" jokes about priests or chuckles about "women drivers". If someone wants to make the case against specific folks on, or specific aspects of, the internet re: discourse, let them do it and more power to them, but leave the old-as-Moses one-liner dismissals out of it.

There's four thousand and something comments in this thread. Some are better than others, and if your goal is to make a list of the less good ones, you've got a long way to go yet. But there's good stuff in here too; and for all the palpable pro-Obama and anti-McCain/Palin skew, there's also a fair variety in the totality of opinions and positions that have been expressed here in the last week and a half.

I'm glad to have you in here as one more voice and position on this whole thing, but if your goal is simply to crap on other people in the thread I'm not sure you're doing anything but joining in with the same stuff you seem inclined to call out. If you want more substantial and nuanced discussion of the actual arguments, be a part of that.
posted by cortex at 10:42 PM on September 7, 2008 [1 favorite]

cortex: "4198Is this really from a MeFi modrator or did his ID get hijacked?

I curse often and express fervent, ranty opinions at least occasionally. The mom's-basement schtick is crappy low-brow humor on par with "diddling the altar boys" jokes about priests or chuckles about "women drivers". If someone wants to make the case against specific folks on, or specific aspects of, the internet re: discourse, let them do it and more power to them, but leave the old-as-Moses one-liner dismissals out of it.

There's four thousand and something comments in this thread. Some are better than others, and if your goal is to make a list of the less good ones, you've got a long way to go yet. But there's good stuff in here too; and for all the palpable pro-Obama and anti-McCain/Palin skew, there's also a fair variety in the totality of opinions and positions that have been expressed here in the last week and a half.

I'm glad to have you in here as one more voice and position on this whole thing, but if your goal is simply to crap on other people in the thread I'm not sure you're doing anything but joining in with the same stuff you seem inclined to call out. If you want more substantial and nuanced discussion of the actual arguments, be a part of that."

Check out comment 4195, cortex.

I like you. I really like you;-)
posted by Rafaelloello at 10:50 PM on September 7, 2008

Whenever dawson makes a post in this thread Rafaelloello is the first and only MeFi member (except for three instances -- as of 1:37 a.m. | 09/8/08 -- to favorite such comments?).

Rafaelloello's "favoriting" of dawson's comments in this thread currently stands at 49 comments (out of 49).

Friends? Soulmates? Sockpuppets? Or, 'Idealogically-Connected-for-All-Time.' Not that there's anything wrong with that!

Who knows?
posted by ericb at 10:52 PM on September 7, 2008

I am so totally embarrassed, it's like I'm a woman driver in a Mexican truck stop.
posted by dawson at 10:53 PM on September 7, 2008

good lord, ericb. You are an 'OMG things are afoot' theorist aren't you? I also added Raf as a friend. Perhaps we are gay lovers!!!
I find your observation sad and pathetic, and hope you are also openly admonished by a mod in this thread.
posted by dawson at 10:59 PM on September 7, 2008

dawson -- as I said before -- you are not my type. Far from it!
posted by ericb at 11:05 PM on September 7, 2008

ericb: "4200Whenever dawson makes a post in this thread Rafaelloello is the first and only MeFi member (except for three instances -- as of 1:37 a.m. | 09/8/08 -- to favorite such comments?).

Rafaelloello's "favoriting" of dawson's comments in this thread currently stands at 49 comments (out of 49).

Friends? Soulmates? Sockpuppets? Or, 'Idealogically-Connected-for-All-Time.' Not that there's anything wrong with that!

Who knows?"

You can fault me, but don't cast aspersions on dawson. About an hour or less ago I noticed that in this very one-sided thread that somebody had favorited a comment of mine, even though I've made but a scant few. I admit to checking out dawson's comments and just "clicking down the ticket" and favoriting all his comments in this thread. I just don't want anyone to think that I am a sock puppet for dawson. Jessamyn and Matt and pb have met me personally and can confirm that.
posted by Rafaelloello at 11:07 PM on September 7, 2008

Eric, you are outta line. I was wrong to call you out for posting 200 cut and paste comments earlier, but I never attacked you personally as being fake or cast aspirations on yr character. I think you know better than this silly shit. A bit of research or an email to the mods would have given you insight.
posted by dawson at 11:13 PM on September 7, 2008

I'm begging you...
posted by Balonious Assault at 11:15 PM on September 7, 2008

After realizing that I'm not a 15k'er (must have been all those long threads casting aspersions at them that got the number stuck in my head), I was happy to realize that I only show up as 'other' in the pie chart. huzzah!

And please, Raf; we don't just sit here talking to one another. I for one am volunteering for the Obama campaign, putting my actions where my fingers are.
posted by kaibutsu at 11:32 PM on September 7, 2008

I admit to checking out dawson's comments and just "clicking down the ticket" and favoriting all his comments in this thread. I just don't want anyone to think that I am a sock puppet for dawson.

No foul! No fair! Understood. Whether or not you are truly a proponent and supporter of his comments and views is your business. The pattern of favoriting did indeed raise "flags." We can all agree to disagree. No aspersions on anyone's character was/is intended. Again -- just noticing a trend in this thread.

So -- in other news ...

Palin and McCain’s Shotgun Marriage

“We still don’t know a lot about Palin except that she’s better at delivering a speech than McCain and that she defends her own pregnant daughter’s right to privacy even as she would have the government intrude to police the reproductive choices of all other women. Most of the rest of the biography supplied by her and the McCain camp is fiction.

She didn’t say ‘no thanks’ to the ‘Bridge to Nowhere’ until after Congress had already abandoned it but given Alaska a blank check for $223 million in taxpayers’ money anyway. Far from rejecting federal pork, she hired lobbyists to secure her town a disproportionate share of earmarks ($1,000 per resident in 2002, 20 times the per capita average in other states). Though McCain claimed ‘she has had national security as one of her primary responsibilities,’ she has never issued a single command as head of the Alaska National Guard. As for her ‘executive experience’ as mayor, she told her hometown paper in Wasilla, Alaska, in 1996, the year of her election: ‘It’s not rocket science. It’s $6 million and 53 employees.’ Her much-advertised crusade against officials abusing their office is now compromised by a bipartisan ethics investigation into charges that she did the same.

How long before we learn she never shot a moose?”

And..

“This is a roll of the dice beyond even Bill Clinton’s imagination. ‘Often my haste is a mistake,’ McCain conceded in his 2002 memoir, ‘but I live with the consequences without complaint.’ Well, maybe it’s fine if he wants to live with the consequences, but what about his country? Should the unexamined Palin prove unfit to serve at the pinnacle of American power, it will be too late for the rest of us to complain.

We’ve already seen where such visceral decision-making by McCain can lead. In October 2001, he speculated that Saddam Hussein might have been behind the anthrax attacks in America. That same month he out-Cheneyed Cheney in his repeated public insistence that Iraq had a role in 9/11 — even after both American and foreign intelligence services found that unlikely. He was similarly rash in his reading of the supposed evidence of Saddam’s W.M.D. and in his estimate of the number of troops needed to occupy Iraq. (McCain told MSNBC in late 2001 that we could do with fewer than 100,000.) It wasn’t until months after ‘Mission Accomplished’ that he called for more American forces to be tossed into the bloodbath. The whole fiasco might have been prevented had he listened to those like Gen. Eric Shinseki who faulted the Rumsfeld war plan from the start.

In other words, McCain’s hasty vetting of Palin was all too reminiscent of his grave dereliction of due diligence on the war. He has been no less hasty in implying that we might somehow ride to the military rescue of Georgia (‘Today, we are all Georgians’) or in reaffirming as late as December 2007 that the crumbling anti-democratic regime of Pervez Musharraf deserved ‘the benefit of the doubt’ even as it was enabling the resurgence of the Taliban and Al Qaeda. McCain’s blanket endorsement of Bush administration policy in Pakistan could have consequences for years to come.”

posted by ericb at 11:38 PM on September 7, 2008 [7 favorites]

Palin put her child's safety at risk not using helmet on an ATV.
posted by nickyskye at 12:01 AM on September 8, 2008

ericb: "4208I admit to checking out dawson's comments and just "clicking down the ticket" and favoriting all his comments in this thread. I just don't want anyone to think that I am a sock puppet for dawson.

No foul! No fair! Understood. "

That's *exactly* why I like being part of this place. Thanks for understanding, but apologies to all for trying to unduly counterweight the prevailing sentiment.
posted by Rafaelloello at 12:05 AM on September 8, 2008

Did a sockpuppet accusation fight start up in this thread? Weak.

Anyway, I just poped into post that NYT piece about Olberman and Matthews getting dropped from election coverage, but I see I've been beaten. I thought their coverage of the DNC was great, but MSNBC as a whole seemed pretty dull during the republican convention. It was obvious they were pulling their punches, and actually got rid of Rachel Maddow at one point.

It's obvious that they view their job as being "balanced" and being deferential to those in power so they can score interviews and get favorable treatment for their parent companies. It's quite pathetic.

Dawson: how can you hate Biden if you like Obama? What exactly is your problem with him?
posted by delmoi at 12:49 AM on September 8, 2008

The Australian (owned by News Corp) has an interesting piece touching on some speculations upthread:

Clinton turns down hatchet job

HILLARY Clinton may be the most obvious choice to throw into the ring against the new darling of American politics, Sarah Palin, but the failed Democratic presidential candidate is refusing the job.

"We're not going to be anybody's attack dog against Sarah Palin," a Clinton insider said yesterday.

It's an extraordinary act of hubris from a woman whose success in exposing Barack Obama's weakness in working-class Democratic states such as Pennsylvania, Ohio and Indiana may have been the reason that John McCain chose a gun-toting, God-loving mother of five as his running mate.
(...)
"Attacking Palin is checkers; attacking McCain on the economy is chess," a Clinton aide commented.
(...)
Her refusal to roll up her sleeves against Palin, who describes herself as "a pit bull with lipstick", has already come under questioning by Democratic apparatchiks. "The strategic imperative right now is to do something about Palin and prevent her cutting through the race," said Democratic strategist Tad Devine. "She is practising the same slash-and-burn politics of division of the Bush years. Hillary Clinton can make the charge that Governor Palin represents the far Right."
(...)
Clinton has been asked to concentrate on the working-class districts of Ohio, Pennsylvania and Michigan, where Palin will be competing fiercely for votes, and Florida, where women and Jewish voters may reject the Alaska Governor's Christian, conservative, anti-abortion message.

Clinton, who has lived through the women's movement, intends to frame the race in terms of a double-barrelled McCain-Palin threat to issues that women care about, such as the right to an abortion, equal pay and universal healthcare, according to Florida congresswoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz.

As such, she will be joining the roster of prominent women deployed by Obama to such good effect against Clinton herself during the primary campaign. Politicians such as Kansas Governor Kathleen Sebelius and Missouri senator Claire McCaskill have made the case that women could in good conscience vote for Obama rather than Clinton.

posted by =^^= at 2:15 AM on September 8, 2008

McCain leading Obama in Gallup Poll, 48 percent to 45 percent.

Whenever the poll numbers starts to stress me out, I find it nice to reread this interview with Obama's campaign manager David Plouffe about the way they use polls.

We tried to get Plouffe to react to a spate of national polls showing a tightening race.

"All we care about is these 18 states," he said. He repeated, with emphasis, that the campaign does not care about national polling. Instead, the campaign's own identification, registration and canvassing efforts provide the data he uses to determine where to invest money and resources...

The Gallup Daily is the worst thing that's happened in journalism in 10 years.
posted by afu at 4:33 AM on September 8, 2008

Would it be the patriotic thing to keep this thread going until 9/11?
posted by QIbHom at 5:01 AM on September 8, 2008

In the interest of accuracy, I'll point to this: the list that's been floating around, the one with all the books Palin supposedly wanted banned from the Wasilla library, is a hoax, according to Snopes.
posted by shiu mai baby at 5:35 AM on September 8, 2008

Clearly I need to pull my attention from this thread to read other parts of Metafilter.
posted by shiu mai baby at 5:45 AM on September 8, 2008

Obama regrets "above my pay grade" abortion answer.
posted by agregoli at 6:29 AM on September 8, 2008

Thanks for the Greg Palast link, Balonious Assault. A book recommendation, for those of you who haven't read it -- Palast's Armed Madhouse. From one of the reviews there:

Examines Ohio where Bush stole the 2004 election (with a little help from matched thievery in New Mexico). 153,237 votes in Ohio were literally discarded and not counted, more than Bush's margin of victory there. In Ohio, 14.4% of black votes were not counted, only 1.5% of white votes.

Provides a superb discussion of Republican "caging lists" which could be used to challenge predominantly black voters and move their votes into an alternative voting system. Notes that of the 3,107,400 "provisional" votes that the Republicans were able to force, 1,090,739 were discarded--not counted. Also notes that the Republicans sent expensive lawyers everywhere to focus on this, and the Democrats, with $51M in the bank, chose not to confront the Republicans.

So am I scared my vote won't get counted here in Ohio? Not so much. The caging techniques used in '04 won't affect us, we haven't moved, and we've voted in every local election between then and now. I'll be closely watching the mail for this.

What scares me is the kind of bullying tactics Republican election monitors used in the predominantly-minority neighborhoods of Cleveland, as witnessed and reported by friends of mine who were volunteering there. What scares me is the funky allocation of voting machines -- tons in the wealthy suburban zones, next to none anywhere minorities or students were voting (the lines in Columbus near Ohio State's campus lasted HOURS, and there were numerous irregularities).

I hope like hell that the Dems are going to send in enough election monitors, lawyers, and volunteers to make our election as closely monitored as a third world country with oil.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 6:31 AM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

If you idiots think "who's taking care of the kids" is a relevant issue regarding Sarah Palin, you will lose and deserve to lose.

You can try to define this thread all you want or try to dictate what we will and will not discuss, but this is the only open Sarah Palin thread on Metafilter. Who she is, What she has done, What she stands for, Why she was picked for the VP spot, are all valid questions. I am interested in HER, not what the polls are showing or Abortion: Yes or No.

The amazing thing about Palin is nobody down here in in the lower 48 knew much about her prior to Aug 29 and thanks to the internet we are quickly getting to know her. If this woman had run 15 years ago the message would be "She's a maverick reformer Supermom with years of governing experience who hates government waste and loves her country," and we wouldn't know otherwise unless the media chose to tell us. But there are still major holes in her biography and I hope to see more information become available.

This morning I woke up thinking, "Dang her life is complicated; her life was complicated before she started campaigning." One tiny detail from the democrat's vetting of 2 years ago that has somehow stuck in my brain-- she and Todd owned 26 cars between 1996 and 2006. Is Alaska that hard on vehicles or do they just like to wheel and deal a lot?

Also, if I am reading this right, when she was in Juneau while the legislature was in session, the girls where at home in Wasilla, Bristol was at the aunt's house, Track was ? and Todd was "on the slopes" (I think this refers to his job) leaving Sarah (pre-baby) alone in the Governor's Mansion. That makes the firing of the personal chef a lot more sensible. When we first heard about the firing of the chef it was made to seem like, "Mom with 5 kids, works all day as Governor and then goes home to cook dinner for the family."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 6:36 AM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

I liked Dahlia Lithwick's article in Slate: How To Debate a Girl, and Win. In part because it echoes what XQUZYPHYR and I were saying above: Your real problem is that Palin is not a serious candidate. I don't mean to suggest that she is not a serious person or even a seriously impressive first-term governor with real potential to shake up national politics. Nor do I want to imply for an instant that Palin is not a serious competitor. I just want to state here what you will be unable to say out loud at the debate: That by every obvious metric—experience, knowledge base, decades of public service, policy experience, understanding of the world—Palin is an unserious candidate for the vice presidency of the United States.

Her incompetence is a selling point. The goal is to market her Bushiness(-that-dare-not-speak-its-name) to everyone who voted for W the last two times.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 6:48 AM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

Keep in mind that the people running elections in Ohio are democrats now. In '04 the SOS was Ken Blackwell, a blatantly sleazy republican hack. This is a guy who tried to throw out who knows how many voter registration forms because he said the paper they were printed on was, literally, "too thin" and jammed up the "machines". Of course, that would have been completely illegal, since federal law makes it illegal to reject a voter registration form for technical imperfections.

(The reason the registration forms were thin was because they had been reprinted by groups like MoveOn to register voters)

Oh, and of course he did this just a few weeks before the election, making it impossible for people to re-register. It was an unbelievably blatant attempt to steal the election, but the fact that more ballots were discarded then Bush's margin of victory is only relevant if the discarded ballots were all Kerry votes, otherwise it wouldn't have changed the overall margin that much.

But anyway, the people running the elections are Democrats now.
posted by delmoi at 6:48 AM on September 8, 2008

McCain has just put out a new campaign ad. "Original Mavericks" - in which they once again trot out the "Bridge to Nowhere" lie.

Original Mavericks
posted by knapah at 6:54 AM on September 8, 2008

On =^^='s link above, I think the excerpt quoted here is sufficient. The rest is clearly a hatchet job.

FTA:
Although she is 60 and unlikely to have another shot at the White House,

Uh huh.

If Clinton is uncertain about going for Palin's jugular, she may like to recall the words of a woman delegate at the Republican convention who described Palin as "more of a woman than Hillary and more of a man than Hillary".

Stay classy, NewsCorp.

I see a trend in trying hard to spread the meme that Obama/Biden can't connect with the "working class", while Biden is clearly kicking ass in that regard on the stump. The old elitist charge repackaged.
posted by lysdexic at 7:16 AM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh wow, this is beautiful.
posted by lysdexic at 7:20 AM on September 8, 2008 [6 favorites]

But anyway, the people running the elections are Democrats now.

Yes, delmoi, I know. (Thank goodness we DTMFA -- although look out, Ken Bush-Campaign-Chair AND SoS Blackwell is going to probably make a run for our next open Senate seat)

Even with Jennifer Brunner in charge trying to improve conditions on the ground, getting rid of some of the corrupt MFs in the big-city counties (from that link: "Brunner's request for the resignations comes a week after two Cuyahoga County election workers were each sentenced to 18 months in prison for rigging the recount of the 2004 election in Ohio's biggest county."), the vote-caging and anything-goes tactics are still a threat. It's like saying just because we stopped the reactor from having a meltdown, it's not dangerous anymore.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 7:37 AM on September 8, 2008

"We're not going to be anybody's attack dog against Sarah Palin," a Clinton insider said yesterday.

I think that's wise; I wouldn't do it either. Do the dirty work for somebody else's ticket? No way. I can't imagine it would be worth it for the future of Sen. Clinton's career; of course, I also don't imagine it working very well (a candidate not on the ticket attacking a candidate on the ticket, to which people respond- what do we care what you have to say? You're not on any ticket!).
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:58 AM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

Hmm. Does kind of make me wonder what the fuck the point of her is though. I mean, she’s basically a republican and she only ever attacks Democrats, is she trying to cut in on Lieberman or what?
posted by Artw at 8:35 AM on September 8, 2008

Hmm. Does kind of make me wonder what the fuck the point of her is though.

As I understand it, she will be going after McCain. It seems the Obama campaign is going to employ dismissal, primarily, with regards to Palin.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:05 AM on September 8, 2008

Paranoid thought of the morning: The Republican puppet masters behind GW, ie Rove and Cheney, are backing Palin because when McCain kicks the bucket in office, due to stress, Palin is puppet material, along the same greed lines that GW was puppet material.

Interesting that initially McCain wanted to choose the pro-abortion-rights Joe Lieberman as his vice president.

Good article: Palin and McCain’s Shotgun Marriage

Wonkosphere. oh no.
posted by nickyskye at 9:23 AM on September 8, 2008

Palin is a little conservative sideshow meant to distract the weak-minded from the real issues. I'm sure the Republicans would like to suck the discussion down into her her personal life so they can accuse the Democrats and the media of being petty, but the only relevant things about her are her horrendous policies, her incompetence as mayor, her abuse of her position, and her cronyism in office.

Pretending Sarah Palin doesn't exist is the right tack for Obama himself, I believe. Let proxies attack her, preferably as low on the totem pole as possible, someone with a commensurate amount of experience.

He should focus on Grampa McWhine and his utter lack of a defined foreign or economic policy (I mean policies he actually can discuss intelligently, not the one his handlers told him he has) and his embrace of the Bush/Cheney administration. He should emphasize what he will change about the direction of government and his vision for the USA.
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:31 AM on September 8, 2008 [3 favorites]

a few comments removed - we're still reading, don't be jerks, thank you
posted by jessamyn (staff) at 9:37 AM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

I think that's wise; I wouldn't do it either. Do the dirty work for somebody else's ticket? No way.

of course. and: pay the debts for someone else's campaign? no way.

I'm sure the mystery donors of Bill's library will help.

anyway: there's no doubt Hillary needs Obama to lose, there's nothing for her in a Obama presidency simply because she wants to be President. she'd rather try again in '12 for the nomination. I'm not sure she'll make it, but she has every right to try. she has a couple years to pay off her debts, give the occasional speech in the Senate about how she told you so, and then around 2010 she can start the new Presidential campaign. I think the smart money's on the Democrats trying to run someone else, simply to avoid another 2008, though. also, McCain is certainly in bad shape, but Bill has like 34 bypasses grafted around his heart -- for all his gaffes, racist and not, during this campaign, he still understands better politics better than anyone else -- his wife included. if he dies, I think it's going to be very bad for Hillary 2012. I might be wrong of course.

Hillary in my mind has just one hope: that McCain dies, Palin takes over before 2012 and Roe gets reversed around 2011. then Hillary -- if "abortion should be legal" keeps polling around 70% as it does now -- can try to frame her campaign as a Sarah/Hillary deathmatch where Palin is too extreme and Hillary is the Savior of All Women. still a long shot, in my mind.

it's also likely that some Obama people might not like her in 2012 (it's all fair, TPS, right, since you're big on the freedom of the Hillary people this year not to choose Obama. a split party in 2008 means that the smart choice for 2012 is to dump both candidates and choose someone new, fresh, without the 2008 baggage.
posted by matteo at 9:47 AM on September 8, 2008

He should focus on Grampa McWhine and his utter lack of a defined foreign or economic policy (I mean policies he actually can discuss intelligently, not the one his handlers told him he has) and his embrace of the Bush/Cheney administration. He should emphasize what he will change about the direction of government and his vision for the USA.

Precisely. Seems to be working, too, as the latest numbers don't show McCain necessarily bounding ahead of Obama right now. I'd have been surprised if he didn't get a little boost after the RNC, but it's not exactly the steamroller he was probably hoping for.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:47 AM on September 8, 2008

Yesterday's NY Times article about Palin and Parents of Special Needs Children makes several good points:

In animated debates in blogs, chat rooms and classrooms across America, others wondered what such advocacy would entail. But the governor offered no details, and Maria Comella, her spokeswoman, would not elaborate on what Ms. Palin would seek to accomplish for disabled children as vice president

“I never heard Governor Palin say as governor, ‘You have an advocate in Juneau,’ ” said Sonja Kerr, a lawyer specializing in disability law in Anchorage.

The last time a candidate explicitly appealed to families of the disabled at a national convention, advocates said, was 20 years ago, when the presidential nominee, George H. W. Bush, endorsed the Americans with Disabilities Act — and got a 10 percentage point bump among voters who identified themselves as having disabilities,

I read this as: "Get me elected and then I will divulge my superspecial, top secret plan for helping your children."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:57 AM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

she and Todd owned 26 cars between 1996 and 2006

Yes but aren't several of those ATVs, and a couple are likely snowmobiles, plus one trailer? (link, then scroll down to 2nd-to-last page)

It's an interesting record to examine but I can't draw any conclusions, I've only ever owned 2 vehicles my whole life...
posted by skyper at 9:57 AM on September 8, 2008

but it's not exactly the steamroller he was probably hoping for.

I agree, but Obama had his convention, too, and for the Democrats standards it was an impressively disciplined affair, with Hillary eating crow in an extremely graceful manner -- where's Obama's steamroller, then? I don't see any momentum in the Democrats field now. as much as one is appalled by Palin, the momentum's on the GOP's side now. it's been 40 days of not so good news for the Democrats, give it another week and the story will be "Obama is hurting, the campaign is demoralized, maybe he was indeed an empty suit". it's a Dukakis Zone where you don't really want to be. and at least Dukakis, unlike Obama, had once had a big, clean 17-point lead on his opponent.

hoping that someone can find some Eagleton-level bomb rooting through Palin's frozen shit up in Alaska is, in my mind, not conductive to a victory in November.
posted by matteo at 10:05 AM on September 8, 2008

it's all fair, TPS, right, since you're big on the freedom of the Hillary people this year not to choose Obama.

Don't put words into my mouth. All people have the right to choose whatever candidate they want, but I wouldn't recommend any true supporter of any party vote for the other side just because they don't like the person leading the ticket. I think that's silly. But then again, that's me, and if everyone agreed with me, we wouldn't need to have elections.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 10:07 AM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

John McCain Gets BarackRoll'd.

Also, vote for Tigh / Roslin in 2008.
posted by chunking express at 10:21 AM on September 8, 2008

Women Say No To Palin is compiling a site full of women's stories and responses to the email they sent out. I (edited a bit) one of my responses here and added it to the bin, with a link to this post. Their autoresponder made me choke up a little (crazy but true):

Thanks so much for writing. The response has been immense! We've heard from women of all ages from all over the US and internationally. Here's our blog: http://womenagainstsarahpalin.blogspot.com

It's incredibly inspiring to read so many intelligent, wise, and impassioned opinions. Thank you.

Yours truly,
Lyra and Quinn

p.s. Don't worry- we won't add your name to any kind of mailing list.
We're just two young women who had to do something.

The last line in particular. That about sums it up for me -- there's this feeling that we have to do something, have to make ourselves heard somehow. The media's been all over the salacious stuff and concentrating less on Palin refusing to give interviews (til now), less on McCain's policies, less on his bad behavior (I'm sorry, but I just can't imagine having someone one finger away from the bomb whose judgment declares it A-OK to call his wife a "cunt" in public. Or private, for that matter), less on what a McCain/Palin presidency would do to our already-eroded civil rights... ARGH. Sometimes I just want to scream, I am so frustrated. I hope Biden eviscerates Palin in the VP debate. I hope Obama manages to get McCain pissed off enough to look like the hothead he is. I pray that the "I like her! She's sassy...who cares about McCain?" people will WAKE UP.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 10:25 AM on September 8, 2008 [3 favorites]

I wasn't being a jerk; I am completely serious. Every penny of my stimulus cheque is going directly to Obama's campaign. I might not sign the note as indicated, but that's what I'm going to write. I hope whoever opens the envelope gets a kick out of it.
posted by chuckdarwin at 10:25 AM on September 8, 2008

Yeah, lots of ATVs. But in 2004 Sarah registered 4 Ford trucks as well as a Toyota Sequoia. Not all of them list her as the owner (although they all list her as the registrant.) That was the year she and Todd opened the car wash. Business related? Toyota for the maid? Used car sales? It's just one more tiny detail to add to the big picture.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:32 AM on September 8, 2008

Get me elected and then I will divulge my superspecial, top secret plan for helping your children.

Which is like McCain's secret plan to capture Osama bin Laden.
posted by kirkaracha at 10:40 AM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

chuckdarwin, are you a US or UK citizen? see kerfuffles upthread re: non-US citizens and campaign contributions...
posted by bitter-girl.com at 10:41 AM on September 8, 2008

William Gibson just posted a link to Lisa Nova's Palin vs. Obama: A Dark Comedy, which I find pretty damn disturbing.
posted by Kattullus at 10:48 AM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm a US citizen; I am living in the UK indefinitely... so I can give Mr Bush's intelligence-insulting stimulus cheque to whomever I like. I can also vote for Senator Obama, something I've wanted to do since 2004. I have my new voter's registration card and mail-in ballot sitting in my office, ready to go. My former state went with Bush in the last two elections, and may go for McCain this time (which will prompt some cynical asshole to point out that I'm 'wasting my vote')... but I'm voting for Obama anyway.
posted by chuckdarwin at 10:53 AM on September 8, 2008

That wonkosphere "buzz" tab is just raising my blood pressure.

Oh, that's interesting. This link was deleted from the red stripe. That's the one that got me pissed off.

So there are humans running it. I was thinking that Mud Meter™ was a little off, as was the list of descriptive words each candidate had about the other. Too algorythmy.
posted by lysdexic at 11:37 AM on September 8, 2008

Let's see what Palin's first gaffe.

of course. and: pay the debts for someone else's campaign? no way. -- matteo

Obama can't contribute more then $2,100 to retire Hillary's debt, which he did (as did his wife). Campaign finance laws have changed, and while Obama could raise money for Hillary, he couldn't just cut a check.

I agree, but Obama had his convention, too, and for the Democrats standards it was an impressively disciplined affair, with Hillary eating crow in an extremely graceful manner -- where's Obama's steamroller, then?--matteo

He got a 4-5 point bump in the polls, but the republican convention happened right afterward.

Lets see where we are a week from now. And anyway, the same thing was happening before the conventions. Obama goes to europe/Iraq, gets tons of great press, comes back and gets slammed, has a great convention, then the republican convention and blah blah blah.

Look, these elections are not determined by news cycles, but swing states. Palin has energized the base, but what goes on on TV is pretty much unrelated to what's actually happening in the electorate.
posted by delmoi at 12:09 PM on September 8, 2008

Michael Palin For President.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 12:30 PM on September 8, 2008 [2 favorites]

Holy crap, the AIP has a you tube link where it is basically stated that Palin is a member but is a Repub for infiltration purposes. Also, the Gibson "interview" is anything but. Blog with Youtube link
posted by jadepearl at 12:56 PM on September 8, 2008 [3 favorites]

Let's see what Palin's first gaffe.

I wouldn't call it a gaffe because it's not just an embarrassing oopise. It is more evidence that she is completely unprepared to serve in the office she seeks.
posted by peeedro at 1:06 PM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

It is more evidence that she is completely unprepared to serve in the office she seeks.

And the problem isn't that she didn't know something that a federal office holder should know, it's that she felt free to sound off about something she of which she was prodoundly ignorant. we can ill-afford another leader who thinks with his or her "gut". This is a dangerous trait in a leader who must direct others based on what they do and don't know.
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:44 PM on September 8, 2008 [5 favorites]

Given the fact that it seems that except for repeating her RNC speech at every pitstop she is practically being quarantined to protect her from the press, it's remarkable that she could make a screw-up of this magnitude at this time. Keep it up, Sarah!
posted by onlyconnect at 1:53 PM on September 8, 2008

McCain, Palin criticize Obama on earmarks (AP)

"John McCain and Sarah Palin criticized Democrat Barack Obama over the amount of money he has requested for his home state of Illinois, even though Alaska under Palin's leadership has asked Washington for 10 times more money per citizen for pet projects."
posted by yeti at 2:40 PM on September 8, 2008 [3 favorites]

Now they're only 455 years behind the times!
posted by lysdexic at 2:41 PM on September 8, 2008

Can anyone explain to me what "votes being purged" means? This particular post has an extraordinary list of media contact information, for anyone interested.
posted by nickyskye at 2:44 PM on September 8, 2008

I don't know why republicans are allowed to get away with bald-faced lies, time and again.
posted by empath at 2:54 PM on September 8, 2008 [2 favorites]

nicky -- here in Ohio, they sent out mailers to all registered voters -- those that bounce back undeliverable cause the person to get taken off the list of registered voters in that district. If the voter shows up to vote in that district, they HAVE to vote provisional, which are not counted until 10 days after the election (if at all -- here in Ohio there was a massive scandal in NE Ohio resulting in jail time for some of the elections people, I linked it above). So "purged" essentially means "get rid of voters in inner city and predominantly Democratic districts" here.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 3:33 PM on September 8, 2008 [2 favorites]

Well, it's good to see there's finally an Obama ad that's calling them liars and trying to put to rest the "maverick" branding.

On a side note, at the moment, everytime this page is served up fresh it's almost 4 megs of bandwidth ... love to see the bandwidth usage spike for the period this thread is active!
posted by barnacles at 3:35 PM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

I don't know why ~~republicans~~ politicians are allowed to get away with bald-faced lies, time and again.
posted by dawson at 3:38 PM on September 8, 2008

Palin's first gaffe.

I wouldn't call it a gaffe because it's consistent with the long-running GOP disinformation program regarding their "fiscal responsibility". With the Bush Administration now essentially controlling half the Real Estate Market (in ways "economics-minded" people don't want to admit), America's future looks grim regardless of the election's outcome.
posted by wendell at 3:45 PM on September 8, 2008

I don't know why ~~republicans~~ politicians are allowed to get away with bald-faced lies, time and again.

I do. Because most Americans don't want the truth, they want comfortable lies. Proven when Carter's "malaise" speech helped elect the skillful script-reader Reagan, and getting more and more so all the time. The Republicans are the Masters of the Art, but Obama is good enough a prevaricator to be a serious threat to their power structure. They're not nearly as afraid of "liberal policies" being enforced than of losing the toadies throughout the Justice Department wh are keeping them out of jail. (It really doesn't matter whether Obama replaces them with honest prosecutors or his own toadies... the effect to them is the same)
posted by wendell at 3:55 PM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

...everytime this page is served up fresh it's almost 4 megs of bandwidth ... love to see the bandwidth usage spike for the period this thread is active!

I'm starting to firmly believe that the MeFi policy of deleting any Political Posts that could be considered "closely related" to open threads is not working well for them. They are keeping the Front Page "cleaner" than during past Election Years by hiding most of the discussion here, but paying a higher bandwidth bill for it.

And I've gotten some surprisingly good links from deleted posts I see at metafilter.com/lofi that I would've otherwise missed here.

Well, time to hit POST PREVIEW and cost Matt another 4mb...
posted by wendell at 4:08 PM on September 8, 2008

Wasilla Police Billed Sexual Assault Victims for Their Own Rape Kits: "While Sarah Palin was serving as the Mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, the city charged victims of sexual assault between $300 and $1200 for their own rape kits"

I would get really outraged over this except that... the state of North Carolina only just cottoned onto the idea that making victims pay for their own evidence collections wasn't very ethical OR kind. Still, I wonder why it never occurred to the woman in charge of running Wasilla that she might set up a general fund for that purpose. Does Palin not have an ounce of empathy?
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:14 PM on September 8, 2008 [15 favorites]

Don't miss the video jadepearl posted.

Didn't hear it all because I was on a call, but Jessica Yellin was on Wolf Blitzer's show with a report on Palin's former Wasila church, one she attended until 2002; Yellin interviews a member about speaking in tongues; the church's belief that Alaska will be a refuge at the end of the world. Had a few brief statements with the pastor - he says he doesn't know if Palin spoke in tongues. Report goes into her recent speaking before a student there where she says that the Iraq war is God's will or under God's direction, or something similar. Blitzer said there will be more reports tonight about her current church and some disturbing things that were said about jews.

They also had a segment on where they took phrases from her convention speech and then showed her giving the same lines in different settings. (Great mash-up fodder)

On so many levels, this woman would be a national nightmare if elected. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Never mind the big reasons, just her sing-songy cadence and smug, self-satisfied smirk would be enough to drive me insane.

Religion coverage from a few major print media outlets:
Chicago Tribune: How religion guides Palin
New York Times: In Palin’s Life and Politics, Goal to Follow God’s Will
USA Today: Palin's former minister comes under scrutiny
Wall St Journal: Palin's Faith Is Seen In Church Upbringing
posted by madamjujujive at 4:20 PM on September 8, 2008 [3 favorites]

Secret Life of Gravy, I'm speechless. Honestly stunned. That is just...wow.
posted by agregoli at 4:22 PM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

They are keeping the Front Page "cleaner" than during past Election Years by hiding most of the discussion here, but paying a higher bandwidth bill for it.

Seriously, take it to MetaTalk. There has not been a decent thread about Palin posted since the last MetaTalk thread, even though cortex and I have said clearly we'd love to see one. There have been a few crappy posts removed that were the functional equivalent of email forwards. If someone would like to make an updated Palin post that wasn't a screed and wasn't just some blog link to nowhere, please do.
posted by jessamyn at 4:23 PM on September 8, 2008

Secret Life of Gravy writes "'While Sarah Palin was serving as the Mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, the city charged victims of sexual assault between $300 and $1200 for their own rape kits'"

Oh please someone tell me this isn't something Canada does so I can feel smugly appalled. Is this some sort of side effect of the US's private health care?

Actually I'll just feel smug as BC provides benefits to victims of crime ranging from free prescription medication, health appliances, and counselling through job training, and crime scene remediation up to and including moving assistance and longterm disability assistance[PDF].
posted by Mitheral at 4:45 PM on September 8, 2008

TPM video on Palins flipfloppin'. It's pretty good, except for the weird laugh they dubed in at the end.
posted by delmoi at 4:45 PM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

I wonder if my insurance would cover a rape kit. Probably not, since it doesn't cover abortion or contraception. It does cover viagra, though...
posted by QIbHom at 4:46 PM on September 8, 2008

I have an idea for a new thread, but I just don't have time to do it justice: Pork Barrel Politics, now that both sides are accusing each other of abusing Earmarks will there be an end to them? Why do the Red states traditionally get the most pork? We've heard a lot about the Bridge to Nowhere but are all Earmarks bad?

I know, I know, sounds more like a Poli Sci 101 paper. But if any one wants to run with it, be my guest.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 4:47 PM on September 8, 2008

If someone would like to make an updated Palin post that wasn't a screed and wasn't just some blog link to nowhere, please do.

Not before we reach 5000!
posted by klausness at 4:57 PM on September 8, 2008

Charging for rape kits? Is there any end to the crazy?
posted by bitter-girl.com at 4:58 PM on September 8, 2008

I guess she did say "no thanks" to the bridge to nowhere.
posted by dawson at 5:08 PM on September 8, 2008

if the top of the ticket were to die before 4 Nov

If McCain is elected and then dies would that make Nancy Pelosi the VP? Palin/Pelosi. Just imagine.
posted by well_balanced at 5:31 PM on September 8, 2008

I guess she did say "no thanks" to the bridge to nowhere.

She only said "no thanks" if she had to pay for it. She was perfectly happy with the bridge if taxpayers in the other 49 states were paying for it. Your claim is contradicted by video footage of several debates and campaign events with Palin supporting the Bridge.
posted by jonp72 at 5:35 PM on September 8, 2008 [2 favorites]

Obama! I don't know about you guys, but I like that dude.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:37 PM on September 8, 2008

Palin/Pelosi. Just imagine.

I smell a sitcom!
posted by the littlest brussels sprout at 5:39 PM on September 8, 2008

I guess she did say "no thanks" to the bridge to nowhere.

Oh for crying out loud.

She endorsed the bridge in 2006 when she was running for governor, she dropped it only after it became clear Congress was no longer going to support the poster child for irresponsible earmarks, and she kept the money that they received in between.

Read the Wall Street Journal article.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 5:41 PM on September 8, 2008 [2 favorites]

well_balanced, if the president dies or resigns, the Speaker doesn't become VP.

Ford got to choose his own. Can't remember who right now, but I remember the choosing.

Palin/Pelosi would be pretty amusing, though. Pelosi is from Little Italy in Baltimore, which isn't exactly ground zero for pretension, wealth and elitism.
posted by QIbHom at 5:48 PM on September 8, 2008

I guess she did say "no thanks" to the bridge to nowhere.
The point is, when it was convenient for them, the dems are they ones who said she killed the bridge. That's all, nothing more. Both sides do it and to act shocked and as if it's just a GOP thing is asinine.
I guess that depends on what the meaning of is, is. Bill Clinton.
That that is is. Shakespeare
posted by dawson at 6:19 PM on September 8, 2008

Ford got to choose his own. Can't remember who right now, but I remember the choosing.

It was Nelson Rockefeller. And I'm pretty sure that although the new president gets to choose, their choice has to be confirmed by congress.

After the asassination of kennedy LBJ had no VP until the next election.
posted by billyfleetwood at 6:24 PM on September 8, 2008

Ford picked Nelson Rockefeller to be VP, and since Ford himself was appointed after Spiro Agnew resigned, it left the US with both President and Vice-Presidential positions held by non-elected figures.
posted by Rumple at 6:24 PM on September 8, 2008

If McCain is elected and then dies would that make Nancy Pelosi the VP? Palin/Pelosi. Just imagine.

It does sound like Green Acres for the '00s, but that wouldn't happen.
posted by lukemeister at 6:34 PM on September 8, 2008

I guess she did say "no thanks" to the bridge to nowhere.
The point is, when it was convenient for them, the dems are they ones who said she killed the bridge. That's all, nothing more. Both sides do it and to act shocked and as if it's just a GOP thing is asinine.

No, it is not the same. Palin was for the Bridge to Nowhere, then she came out against it only after the earmarks for the specific project was killed. If Alaska Dems want to say that she killed the Bridge to Nowhere, that is still technically true, because she did technically kill the proposal. She was only frugal when it came to spending her state's money. Palin was quite willing to spend when other people's tax money was at stake. In addition, the earmark was killed for the specific Bridge to Nowhere project (i.e., The Gravina Island Bridge in Ketchikan), but Palin was still allowed to keep the money for funding other infrastructure projects, which she did. If Palin had been truly serious about saving taxpayer money, she could have returned all the earmark money, not just what was specifically allocated to one bridge.

And by the way, I find your "both parties are the same" nonsense to be a major contributor to why our nation is in the sorry state it is in. The lies that have been told by the most recent Republican president (e.g., "weapons of mass destruction," yellowcake from Niger, no one could have foreseen 9/11) have been way more devastating to both our country and the world than the most glaring lie of the most recent Democratic president (i.e., "I did not have sexual relations with that woman."). They need to add extra circles of Dante's Inferno just to find a place to classify all the different types of mendacity that the current administration has invented.
posted by jonp72 at 6:34 PM on September 8, 2008 [9 favorites]

OK, but they didn't get their cocks sucked by an intern. that's what counts.
posted by matteo at 6:53 PM on September 8, 2008

Sarah Palin: A Trojan Moose Concealing Four More Years of George Bush

"Did Sarah Palin wrongfully push to have her ex-brother-in law fired? Was she really against the 'Bridge to Nowhere?' Did she really sell Alaska's plane on eBay, or just list it on eBay? Did she actually have any substantial duties commanding the Alaska National Guard?

The correct answer to all these questions is: who cares? Which isn't to say these aren't valid questions, or that Palin and the McCain camp aren't playing it fast, loose, and coy with each of them. The point is that Palin, and the circus she's brought to town, are simply a bountiful collection of small lies deliberately designed to distract the country from one big truth: the havoc that George Bush and the Republican Party have wrought, and that John McCain is committed to continuing.

Every second of this campaign not spent talking about the Republican Party's record, and John McCain's role in that record, is a victory for John McCain.

Her critics like to say that Palin hasn't accomplished anything. I disagree: in the space of ten days she's succeeded in distracting the entire country from the horrific Bush record -- and McCain's complicity in it. My friends, that's accomplishment we can believe in.

Just look at the problem John McCain faced. George Bush has a disastrous record, and the country knows it. John McCain -- the current one, not the one who vanished eight years ago -- has no major disagreements with George Bush (and I'm sorry, wanting to fire Donald Rumsfeld a bit sooner doesn't qualify) and wants to continue his incredibly unpopular policies for another four years. The solution? Enter Sarah Palin, a Trojan Moose carrying four more years of disaster.

And the plan has worked beautifully. Just look at what's being discussed just 57 days before the election. Is it the highest unemployment rate in five years? The bailout of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? The suicide bombing yesterday in Iraq that killed six people and wounded 54 -- in the same market where last month a bomb killed 28 people and wounded 72? That the political reconciliation that was supposedly the point of 'the surge' is nowhere near happening? That Iraq's Shiite government is now rounding up the American-backed Sunni leaders of the Awakening? That the reason 8,000 soldiers may be leaving Iraq soon is so more can be deployed to Afghanistan where the Taliban is steadily retaking the country?

No. We're talking about whether Sarah Palin was or was not a good mayor, whether she was or was not a good mother, whether her skirts are too short and her zingers too sarcastic.

Contrary to what we're hearing 24/7 in the media, the next few weeks are not a test of Sarah Palin. The next few weeks are a test of Barack Obama.

He needs to dramatically redirect this election back to a discussion over the issues that really matter -- the issues that will impact the future of this country. A presidential campaign is a battle and this is the time for Obama to show some commander-in-chief skills. I'm not talking about calling Palin out for lying about his record and demeaning community organizing. I'm talking about grabbing the political debate by the throat. The country is already angry about what's happened over the last seven-plus years -- he shouldn't be afraid to give voice to that anger. Obama has spent years adopting a non-threatening persona; but he can't let his fear that appearing like an 'angry Black man' (a stereotype not-too-subtly fueled by Fox News) will turn off swing voters keep him from channeling the disgust and outrage felt by so many voters --swing and otherwise.

McCain's team, in an effort to distract, is going to keep doing what they're doing -- diverting voters and the media with a tantalizing combination of personal trivia and small lies. It doesn't matter if they're caught in them -- in fact, all the better. Because they know there is no way in hell they can win if this election is about the big truth of the Bush years.

McCain's real running mate is George Bush and the failed policies of the Republican Party. Even if they are dressed up in a skirt, lipstick, and Tina Fey glasses."

posted by ericb at 6:54 PM on September 8, 2008 [4 favorites]

Lies to Nowhere.
posted by ericb at 6:56 PM on September 8, 2008

You guys still here?

So...I have a pretty powerful sense that the next big meme to come out of this is "When people lie, call them liars"--I think the Steve Almond essay linked above is making some waves. The discussion in the next few days is going to revolve around the word "lie"--the power it has, and why the press and the politicians themselves shrink from using it.

I think I might be able to work up a decent FPP about this, but I dunno. I've gotten pretty loyal to The Thread. And maybe people need a break from electionfilter.

Thoughts?
posted by neroli at 7:01 PM on September 8, 2008

it's all fair, TPS, right, since you're big on the freedom of the Hillary people this year not to choose Obama.

Don't put words into my mouth

who, me?

Please, it's already started on Metafilter.com. Go on, Democrats, go right ahead. But don't get pissy in November when women feel more comfortable voting against you and with her.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero 29 August | 14:13

posted by matteo at 7:05 PM on September 8, 2008

There is something weird about discussing the successor post to a current post. It is kind of like having a former president's family member become president. At best, distasteful.

(Yeah, Nelson Rockefeller. He was governor of New York before going to DC. How could I forget a Rockefeller? Must have been distracted by Jerry trying to walk and chew gum.)
posted by QIbHom at 7:13 PM on September 8, 2008

Obama tonight talking to Keith Olbermann:

They’re not telling the truth.... when you’ve got somebody who was for a project being presented as being against it, then that, you know, stretches the bounds of spin into new areas.
posted by lukemeister at 7:17 PM on September 8, 2008

Nelson Rockefeller was also the guy who lost to Barry Goldwater in 1964 for the Republican Presidential nomination. If living well is the best revenge, Rockefeller got closer to the Oval Office than Goldwater, but Goldwater outlived Rockefeller by 19 years, eight of those as a sitting U.S. Senator after Rockefeller died of a heart attack "under circumstances whose details have never been completely revealed" (but it is frequently suggested he was living well at the time). And Ford, Goldwater and Rockefeller are still Great and Honorable men compared to the pathetic current GOP leadership (as pretty much proven by the fact that none of them ever won a Presidential Election).
posted by wendell at 7:28 PM on September 8, 2008

neroli,
since you ask, my vote is a nay. Even if it makes the cut and isn't deleted, it will be filled with much of what's here, which is hearsay, innuendo and personal attacks, and that's just against other members.
A new thread would have 3k comments in a few days, and since nothing will be done to remedy that situation, someone else will have to start yet another thread. N,o I say we stay here, reloading and remarking and go for 10,000.
posted by dawson at 7:29 PM on September 8, 2008

wendell, I really miss the old school moderate Republicans. Sure, there are still a few around, such as Olympia Snowe, but, man I wish Bill Milliken was still active (I think he's still alive), or even William Weld.

I never thought I'd be nostalgic for the Republicanism of yesteryear. Then again, I miss the labour wing of the Democratic Party, too. I wonder where everyone went.
posted by QIbHom at 7:46 PM on September 8, 2008

since you ask, my vote is a nay.

Yeah, I think you’re right. Things seem to be getting unpleasant on various election-related threads (especially the weird trainwreck religion one), and I have no interest in adding to it.

Really, I’m just into following the routes through which various new framing devices for campaign coverage keep percolating up and become “the story.” I think: “Why are people afraid to say the word ‘lie’?” is a good one—certainly more useful than “What kind of mother is Sarah Palin?” And I get the feeling it’s going to start popping up more and more in the next few days.

That Olbermann clip above (thanks lukemeister, I hadn’t seen that) is a perfect example. Olbermann is clearly trying to press Obama into using the “L Word” and he doesn’t take the bait.

As near as I can figure, Rachel Maddow started the whole meme with her segment last week, and the Steve Almond essay gave it momentum.

It hit the big time today, when PA Gov. Ed Rendell finally used the word in telephone press conference; the Times reported it on their blog at the end of the day.

And an update on the blog links to a new Obama ad, that gets pretty damn aggressive, and ends with the phrase “A Naked Lie”-quoted from a New republic article. The word “lie,” though, is still not actually spoken.
posted by neroli at 8:07 PM on September 8, 2008

Wasilla Police Billed Sexual Assault Victims for Their Own Rape Kits

That's both batshitinsane and horrendously inhumane.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:12 PM on September 8, 2008

McCain/Palin hugs examined.
posted by Bookhouse at 8:25 PM on September 8, 2008

I wonder where everyone went.

The Democrats went Right, and the Republicans went Far Right. Things are way out of balance. With any luck, the vacuum to the left will be filled by a new party, and balance will be restored.

a bountiful collection of small lies deliberately designed to distract the country from one big truth

My feeling is that the Sarah Palin story is rapidly reaching the end of its life. Here on MeFi, where we're wonks beyond reason, we've managed to drag it out well over a week and are now going in circles about the same old, tired shit. Been there, done that, time to move on.

I can't imagine the general media and general public are going to outlast our ability to overthink a plate of beans, so I expect we'll be entering a new news cycle this week.

I hope it's one where important issues about the economy and eternal state of war are addressed. I continue to believe the USA is dead man walking if it doesn't get its shit together over the next year or two. I don't think there's a hope in hell of pulling out of the nosedive if McCain is at the controls.

Indeed, I don't think there's anything Obama can do for you, except get you all pointed in the right direction and pulling together. It's going to take a community effort, on a national scale.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:29 PM on September 8, 2008 [2 favorites]

Last.
posted by cj_ at 8:43 PM on September 8, 2008

I'll hit the lights...
posted by konolia at 8:53 PM on September 8, 2008

Perhaps Al Franken should update Lies and the Lying Liars Who Tell Them: A Fair and Balanced Look at the Right.
The man knows how to call out the lying liars.
posted by Sailormom at 8:59 PM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

‘Leave room for the Holy Ghost.’
not bad advice at all there...
posted by dawson at 9:02 PM on September 8, 2008

Obama tonight talking to Keith Olbermann

Sadly, I thought that was a pretty weak performance. Olbermann was pitching softballs and Obama failed to hit any homeruns. To me, it went like this:

Olbermann: I really dig what you're doing, tell me about McCain... 
Obama: Talk talk talk slow talk, um, talk talk slow talk, um, slow talk, um, talk talk.
Memorized talking points in rapid fire, um, slow talk, talk, um, talk.  More talking points,
um, slow talk talk period.

It was weak, There was a lot of "umm" and not much to grab onto. Obama is better off ignoring those clowns and talking about something else. I think he's at his best when he talks about his experience, his expectations, and his hopes for the United States. I want hear what he wants to do as president, not play political analyst for McCain/Palin speeches and commercials. I'd like to see him leave the analysis to someone else and get on with promoting your platform and your strengths.

That Olbermann clip above (thanks lukemeister, I hadn’t seen that) is a perfect example. Olbermann is clearly trying to press Obama into using the “L Word” and he doesn’t take the bait.

But I think the guy is getting sidetracked away from his strengths. He's getting boxed into playing media analyst instead of explaining himself to the voting public. Olbermann is just as guilty as the debate moderators who play the increasingly popular game of soundbite and "gotcha" generator, instead of explicating his core positions.

I'll hit the lights...

It'd be better if someone would give us a new thread to play in...
posted by peeedro at 9:02 PM on September 8, 2008

Hey, thanks for the all the links, ericb.
posted by every_one_needs_a_hug_sometimes at 9:05 PM on September 8, 2008

ouch bad edit, "and get on with promoting his platform and his strengths."
posted by peeedro at 9:07 PM on September 8, 2008

it's all fair, TPS, right, since you're big on the freedom of the Hillary people this year not to choose Obama.

Don't put words into my mouth

who, me?

Please, it's already started on Metafilter.com. Go on, Democrats, go right ahead. But don't get pissy in November when women feel more comfortable voting against you and with her.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero 29 August | 14:13

I wasn't talking about Hillary people, which is why... I didn't mention them. I meant women in general, and that's what I said "women". You get an F in reading comprehension for the day.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 9:52 PM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

PSH, I'm not piling on (that's Blazecock's job afterall) but who is the 'her' in the 'against you and with her', and what did you mean by the comment, if you don't mind the query?
posted by dawson at 10:06 PM on September 8, 2008

Hi guys!
Just back from vacation, what'd I miss?
posted by Floydd at 10:07 PM on September 8, 2008 [2 favorites]

In my defense, I haven't been sleeping well.
posted by cortex at 10:15 PM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

lemme tell you Flyodd, it was some crazy shit! Michelle O ran off with Cindy Mc, Biden and John found true love, and we elected Obama and Palin as the new first couple!
Already Sarah is 5 months, but still not showing!
And Todd? well, I've heard he's blowing Ann Colter's mind, among other things.
(cortex, wtf? Quaalude?)
posted by dawson at 10:22 PM on September 8, 2008

Floydd, even.
posted by dawson at 10:25 PM on September 8, 2008

No, no, wait, wait, just one more observation and then I'll give up.

I just realized that the reason Palin always uses the phrase "Thanks, but no thanks" when referring to her alleged refusing of the earmark is that she truly believes it gives her cover. You see the "thanks" part is her originally accepting it, and the "no thanks" part is her eventually "refusing" it. She really is that shallow, I believe.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:46 PM on September 8, 2008 [3 favorites]

Well, at least cortex didn't abuse his image posting privilege with that like he did ELSEWHERE.

And lack of Optima is no excuse. Here. Don't say I never did ya any favors.
posted by wendell at 11:07 PM on September 8, 2008

The Hottest Rhetorical Device of Campaign '08
Politicians eager to keep up with the latest fad need more than a flag pin this election season; the hottest accessory of the 2008 campaign is the reversible raincoat. That's the nickname speechwriters have given to the rhetorical device in which words are repeated in transposed order, as with Churchill's famous line: "Let us preach what we practice—let us practice what we preach." The fancy Greek name for the trick is antimetabole, and it's been cropping up in speeches by Democrats and Republicans alike.

posted by dawson at 11:18 PM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

yeah, fucked that formatting up. big time. new thread someone?
posted by dawson at 11:21 PM on September 8, 2008

Good Morning America interview with Palin's closest friends.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 11:29 PM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

BONUS MATERIAL (yes, it's a self-link)
posted by wendell at 11:36 PM on September 8, 2008 [1 favorite]

In response to the NYT McPalin hug assessment, it look like the Dems have no problem sparking up a little bromance on stage together. Although, this may be taking the "Change" thing a bit too far.

Wendell...FTFY.

Even without the font, sending up the Obama sign was a pretty easy
posted by billyfleetwood at 1:34 AM on September 9, 2008

The Dominatrix
Republican strategists have made it clear that the GOP's only chance to win is by reframing the election as a battle of images. And right now, Palin is the pinup queen in that war. She's feisty, she's a mom, she's from a frontier state, she guns down wolves from the air, she's a devout Evangelical, she poses as a reformer, and she insults the Washington elites.

And large numbers of Americans think she's hot.

This latter point cannot be underestimated. Iraq may be a quagmire, a new cold war may be looming, the economy may be tanking and the world may be heading toward environmental doom, but the presidential race may be decided by the perceived doability of the governor of Alaska.
posted by madamjujujive at 4:37 AM on September 9, 2008 [2 favorites]

cortex,
By definition, you have more executive experience than anyone. When can you run?

That picture of Palin and the moose in the Salon article takes Rule 34 a bridge to nowhere too far.
posted by lukemeister at 5:18 AM on September 9, 2008

the presidential race may be decided by the perceived doability of the governor of Alaska.

I've hesitated on commenting on this, because I don't want to come across as judging someone based on their attractiveness, but I don't really get this reaction to her. I don't think she's hot. I don't think she's particularly unattractive, either--I don't really seem to have a reaction to her either way. And it's not because of her ideology; there are conservative women I find very attractive. But I honestly don't understand the whole VPILF, "hottest governor," hummana hummana hummana reaction to her. Would any non-hideous woman under 50 have gotten the same reaction? Is the American public just incapable of evaluating a woman in any other light?
posted by EarBucket at 5:22 AM on September 9, 2008

Silly EarBucket. If being a popular-in-her-state, far-northern, Republican woman was all it took, they'd have Olympia Snowe on the freakin' ticket. See? she's even got a MOOSE on her Senate page. And arguably, having been together in the Senate for a while, she's had more than 15 minutes of face time with McCain. But given his penchant for young, hot babes, as soon as Rove said no to his first picks, well... you see what we got.

I think the American public would've had no problem saying yes to Snowe, or another Republican like her. It's not about perceived doability when it comes down to who gets elected -- I mean, Cheney's got enormous balls (in both the "seriously? he just shot a guy in the face" and physical sense) but no one's saying "ooh, I'd hit that."
posted by bitter-girl.com at 6:32 AM on September 9, 2008

Is the American public just incapable of evaluating a woman in any other light?

I don't know about incapable, but it's certainly what the American public is used to doing.
posted by agregoli at 6:33 AM on September 9, 2008

White Women ♥ McCain
posted by birdherder at 6:38 AM on September 9, 2008

Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin has billed taxpayers for 312 nights spent in her own home during her first 19 months in office, charging a "per diem" allowance intended to cover meals and incidental expenses while traveling on state business.

But... but... but her friends say she's "as honest as the day is long"!

Mind you, some of those Alaska days are pretty damn short.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:55 AM on September 9, 2008 [2 favorites]

I do find some comments about Palin's appearance to be insulting and sexist. I don't think noticing and commenting on someone's attractiveness is in itself sexist or insulting, but implying that being attractive makes one shallow or unfit for duty is. (Oh, look, a stewardess as VP!) As shown in this thread alone, there are many reasons people can use to opine that Palin is unfit as a VP. Her appearance is beside the point.

Obviously, we all have different taste. But as a healthy hetro male a few years older than Palin, I say yes, she is noticably attractive. I think what adds to it is what some have referred to as the "sexy librarian" look. She has a tight haristyle, wears glasses, and dresses conservatively (how else?) making it seem that if she let her hair down, literally, she would look softer and more feminine and therefore even more attractive. (Yes, I'm saying that for many people a "more feminine" woman is more attractive than a "less feminine" woman. Sue me.) To bring up the Dan Quayle comparison again, when he was first introduced as the VP pick, he was compared to Robert Redford, and commentators speculated whether he would be taken seriously because he was too attractive. The phrase "dumb blonde" was even used on more than one occassion. (We all know how that turned out, but was it a result of how he looked?)

Noticing appearance is nothing new. Obama's attractiveness is often commented on, including well-publicized photos of him shirtless in Hawaii. We can't help but notice appearance, positive or negative. But hopefully we move beyond that and look at character.

Having said that, it's interesting that I have had very strong opinions about numerous topics in this thread (war, abortion, economy, etc.) and never followed through on adding any of them to the thread. But this topic is the one I choose to respond to!
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 7:05 AM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

The thread's slowing down because
1. It's impossible to post in, and
2. Palin's in a media blackout.

News of her corruption is still coming out as fast as journalists can read through back issues of the Frontiersman, so I expect every few days we'll see another story on her abuses of power.
posted by graventy at 7:09 AM on September 9, 2008

Palin Billed State for Nights Spent at Home

"One event was in New York City in October 2007, when [daughter] Bristol accompanied the governor to Newsweek's third annual Women and Leadership Conference, toured the New York Stock Exchange and met local officials and business executives. The state paid for three nights in a $707-a-day hotel room."

"We cover the expenses of anyone who's conducting state business. I can't imagine kids could be doing that."

"... it looks like a scam -- you pay yourself to live at home..."

posted by ericb at 7:22 AM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

Sliming Palin: False Internet claims and rumors fly about McCain's running mate.
posted by dawson at 8:02 AM on September 9, 2008

5 Myths About Those Civic-Minded, Deeply Informed MeFites, erm, I mean Voters...
posted by dawson at 8:15 AM on September 9, 2008

Sarah Palin Prompts former NYC Mayor Koch to Endorse Obama

"Former NYC Mayor Ed Koch, who supported Bush in 2004, is endorsing Obama today.

Politico's Ben Smith asked Koch what prompted the Obama endorsement: 'The designation of Palin to be vice president. She's scary...Any time someone goes to the library and says, "I want to ban books," and the librarian says "no," and she threatens to fire them -- that's scary.'"

Koch's public statement:

"I have concluded that the country is safer in the hands of Barack Obama, leader of the Democratic Party and protector of the philosophy of that party. Protecting and defending the U.S. means more than defending us from foreign attacks. It includes defending the public with respect to their civil rights, civil liberties and other needs, e.g., national health insurance, the right of abortion, the continuation of Social Security, gay rights, other rights of privacy, fair progressive taxation and a host of other needs and rights.

If the vice president were ever called on to lead the country, there is no question in my mind that the experience and demonstrated judgment of Joe Biden is superior to that of Sarah Palin. Sarah Palin is a plucky, exciting candidate, but when her record is examined, she fails miserably with respect to her views on the domestic issues that are so important to the people of the U.S., and to me. Frankly, it would scare me if she were to succeed John McCain in the presidency."

posted by ericb at 8:16 AM on September 9, 2008 [9 favorites]

I refuse to believe the polling about such a huge shift in white women who are supposedly now giving McCain a double digit edge. That just doesn't pass my smell test. Maybe in the Bible Belt somewhere. If this holds up in future polls, you can knock me over with a feather.
posted by madamjujujive at 8:25 AM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

Well I, for one, was wondering how he was doing.
posted by cortex at 8:36 AM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

The thread's slowing down because
1. It's impossible to post in, and
2. Palin's in a media blackout.

Well, that's true. I've been going back, reliving the thread, as it were. I think I'm about 1,000 comments in. We've recycled the same themes with different players twice now, I think. We're about due for the sexy/sexism thing.

Here's a fun one: don't confuse me with logic!
posted by lysdexic at 8:39 AM on September 9, 2008

"About a year ago I first saw this wonderful woman speak, I didn't know who it was. And I said who is this woman? And a year later, I said to myself about three or four weeks ago, why isn't she up for the vice presidency?" Robert Duvall endorses McCain w/o slamming Biden!!eleventyomg.
posted by dawson at 8:46 AM on September 9, 2008

“Why are people afraid to say the word ‘lie’?” is a good one—certainly more useful than “What kind of mother is Sarah Palin?” And I get the feeling it’s going to start popping up more and more in the next few days.

You're right.

Paul Begala, CNN Political Contributor:

Because the press won't do its job, John. I criticized Barack Obama when he hasn't been tough enough. Barack's job is to run against John McCain, right. Don't shoot the monkey when you can shoot for the organ grinder. His job is not to focus on number two but number one. But it is the media's job when a politician flat out lies like she's doing on this bridge to nowhere so call her on it. Or this matter of earmarks where she's attacking Barack Obama for having earmarks, when she was the mayor of little Wasilla, Alaska, 6,000 people, she hired a lobbyist who was connected to Jack Abramoff, who is a criminal and they brought home $27 million in earmarks. She carried so much pork home she got trichinosis. But we in the media are letting her tell lies about her record."

How many ways can reporters say McCain is lying without using the word "lying"?
posted by ericb at 8:48 AM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

but the presidential race may be decided by the perceived doability of the governor of Alaska.

It really bothered me to see all of the GOP buttons at their convention that said stuff like "Hoosiers 4 the Hawt Chick." What does Hawtness have to do with running a country? That she IS attractive means she is no more (or no less) able to govern. That the GOP (i.e. White Male Establishment) is so filled with glee about her appearance leaves a bad taste in my mouth because it is like watching a frat boy show up to a party with a sexy date and display her like a hunting trophy, a piece of meat, and not like a human being. Imagine if Hillary was on the Democrat's ticket? Would we be seeing signs like "We got the hottie, you got the frump"?

Truly politics has reached the MTV turning point. From here on in it is less Janis Joplin and more Britney Spears.

Oh and Troopergate just keeps expanding.
1. Try to get Brother-in-law fired for personal reasons
2. When Head of Dept of Public Safety refuses, fire him instead without any severance package
3. Hire new guy but don't vet him
4. When new guy turns out to have a record of sexual harassment, fire him after 2 weeks but give him $10,000 severance package.

Wow. Did the new guy (Chuck Kopp) not have some sort of contract? Something with a "failure to disclose" clause that would let her dismiss him without penalty? This is another stunning example of Palin "learning on the job." Just imagine what shenanigans she could get into if she was learning on the job while in the White House.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:20 AM on September 9, 2008 [3 favorites]

It really bothered me to see all of the GOP buttons at their convention that said stuff like "Hoosiers 4 the Hawt Chick."

Wait, were those anything like the "handmade signs" at the RNC?
posted by bitter-girl.com at 9:29 AM on September 9, 2008

What does Hawtness have to do with running a country?

A hawt person is generally easier to talk to and look at. We're hardwired to respond to hawt people. It isnt' the end all and be all of a person of course, but make no mistake we do respond to hawtness. The argument behind those buttons is probably that's she's smart, has morals and is hawt, so it's like the ultimate Republican deity to worship.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:32 AM on September 9, 2008

Well Koch should have read Factcheck.org before he went with the innuendo.

Innuendo? Did she not attempt to fire the librarian after being told that banning books wasn't appropriate? There was some innuendo early on about how babby is formed, but there are plenty of real, substantive issues to point to about why she's a catastrophically bad choice to be a heartbeat away from the Presidency.

Just imagine what shenanigans she could get into if she was learning on the job while in the White House.

No need to imagine, after the last eight years.
posted by me & my monkey at 9:44 AM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

Wait, were those anything like the "handmade signs" at the RNC?
posted by bitter-girl.com at 12:29 PM

They were definitely at the RNC. During the coverage, occasionally there would be a close-up of a delegate with a big shiny button that made a reference to her Hottie status-- the Hoosiers one is the only one I remember exactly but there were others that said something like, "I'm voting for the Hot VP."

A hawt person is generally easier to talk to and look at. We're hardwired to respond to hawt people. It isnt' the end all and be all of a person of course, but make no mistake we do respond to hawtness. The argument behind those buttons is probably that's she's smart, has morals and is hawt,

Except they don't use this argument for picking their MALE candidates. Nobody said, "Vote for Bush--he's cuter than Kerry."
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:49 AM on September 9, 2008

Nobody said, "Vote for Bush--he's cuter than Kerry."

I've got a half-dozen distant relatives and in-laws that disagree. Plenty of people vote for the "taller one with the better hair."
posted by Skorgu at 10:12 AM on September 9, 2008

Dawson, please give us some info. Most MeFites (it seems to me) love Obama, are OK with Biden, don't care for McCain, and loathe Palin. What are your reasons for disliking Biden and liking Palin? I would love to hear some well thought out opinions on this from folks with opinions different from mine. Of course, everyone is welcome to chime in with their reasons for liking/disliking a candidate. Thanks in advance.
posted by Daddy-O at 10:27 AM on September 9, 2008

Did she not attempt to fire the librarian after being told that banning books wasn't appropriate?

Actually, it's not clear that she attempted to fire the librarian, or went any farther than saying, essentially, "What would you do if I asked you to remove certain books from the library?" Still a problematic thing for an elected official to be considering, but let's not accuse her of doing things she didn't do. She's bad enough without bringing false accusations into it.
posted by EarBucket at 10:37 AM on September 9, 2008

According to the New York Times, the librarian was fired by Palin and later reinstated only to resign a few years later.

People who support this decision say that it's fairly standard for an incoming administration to want to replace people who serve "at the pleasure" of the governing person with people loyal to them, citing other incoming administrations in (much) larger cities who have done similar things. People who do not support this decision say that you hire trained professionals in part because of their judgement on matters like these and no matter whether or not tax dollars are being spent, those decisions should be made by professionals trained in doing such things not by people promoting a particular agenda.
posted by jessamyn at 10:44 AM on September 9, 2008 [5 favorites]

But what if the trained professional is a LGBTQ Commie? Huh? Huh?

won't someone think of the Republicans, and other children?
posted by Rumple at 11:00 AM on September 9, 2008

City librarian is generally not considered to be a political job, though. You might want to bring in your own city manager, secretary or maybe even a DPW head. But I haven't heard of a patronage librarian appointment since Dewey "professionalized" librarianship so he could hire (inexpensive) women.

Which isn't to say that library director isn't a political job. At the level of New York City or Boston, it certainly is. But, in a town of 5,000-7,000, all your library users are going to know all the library staff. Trying to play politics with that job is just short-sighted and stupid. People get really attached to the staffer who's read them stories or helped them with papers or found a kind of green bean that will grow in their garden.
posted by QIbHom at 11:08 AM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

Also, in case I was being too equivocal, I agree with QIbHom's assessment entirely, I've just been reading a lot of back and forth on this issue and some people seem to think that her actions were defensible. I am not one of them. If you are interested more in the library angle, please check out librariansforpalin.com and librariansagainstpalin.wordpress.com.
posted by jessamyn at 11:14 AM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

From Dawson's link:

Moreover, although Palin fired Emmons as part of a "loyalty" purge, she rehired Emmons the next day, and Emmons remained at her job for two-and-a-half more years. Actually, Palin initially requested Emmons' resignation in October 1996, four days before the public discussion of censorship. That was at the same time she requested that all four of Wasilla's department heads resign. Palin described the requests as a loyalty test and allowed all four department heads to retain their positions. But on Jan. 30, 1997, three months after the censorship discussion, Palin informed Emmons and Wasilla's police chief, Irv Stambaugh, that they would be fired. According to the Chicago Tribune, Palin did not list censorship as a reason for Emmons' firing. Palin rehired Emmons the following day. Emmons continued to serve as librarian until August 1999, when the Chicago Tribune reports that she resigned.

So she likes to jerk people around, but didn't actually ban any books after the librarian told her she couldn't, then disingenuously asserts it was just an airy hypothetical question? Oh, I feel much better now.
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:21 AM on September 9, 2008 [2 favorites]

About the library issue: Anne Kilkenny mentions in her letter that City residents
rallied to the defense of the City Librarian and against Palin’s
attempt at out-and-out censorship (she was one of them) so it seems to me that at least people who were there at the time also felt that it was more than just a simple theoretical question.

Here is an article about it from the Frontiersman in 1996.
posted by davar at 11:28 AM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

Well Koch should have read Factcheck.org before he went with the innuendo. I'm glad he has settled on a canditate and that it's the one I've supported over a year now. But with his stellar and prescient pick in 04 I'm sure many were breathlessly waiting for his opinion and this will swing the thing once and for all.

No, Koch got it right:

She's scary...Any time someone goes to the library and says, "I want to ban books," and the librarian says "no," and she threatens to fire them -- that's scary.'"

Although the factcheck.org article says she didn't ban them and didn't fire her, it says she did inquire about banning books, and unless you're a hopeless literalist, this indicates she wanted to ban them, and she more than threatened to fire her, she did so, twice, but rehired her both times. RTFL. And don't spin, spin, spin. Let the facts speak.
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:29 AM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

That loyalty purge sounds like petty game playing to me. The kind of petty game playing that only the truly insecure indulge in.

(Jessamyn, you know small town libraries better than I do, so I didn't think you were saying city librarian was a patronage job. I wasn't sure what non-library staff might think, though.)
posted by QIbHom at 11:34 AM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

That loyalty purge sounds like petty game playing to me. The kind of petty game playing that only the truly insecure indulge in.

* cough * Menino * cough *
posted by jessamyn at 11:42 AM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

You know what I love? The absolute destructiveness of the Republican method of campaigning now. If one guy flat out lies, it's easy for the media to dismiss it as lies. When every leading voice in the party repeats the same lie, it becomes difficult, because the facile response to the accusation of mendacity is "What, you think ALL THESE UPSTANDING PEOPLE ARE LYING?" This immediately makes the assertion of lying look like tin-foil-hattery, and the average person who has no access to the underlying facts thinks, "meh." And, goddam it, it works. Look at the people on this thread who believe the lies and begin to question whether Palin is the half-whack, right-wing, nutball religious power grabber she is. This all comes from the inability to believe that these folks are flat out lying about documentable facts. By straw-manning (she didn't actually ban the books), truth-shading (she didn't actually sell the plane on ebay and did sell it at a loss to a campaign contributor), and flat-out lying (she opposed the bridge to nowhere and earmarks in general), they obscure the common person's view of the facts, leaving them free to do whatever they want and hide it.

Why is this destructive? Because soon the Democrats will adopt it, too, in order to survive. It's just too damn effective to not fight back with it. The Rove playbook may be mean-spirited, divisive, and self-negating in the long run, but without scruples, there is no reason not to use the weapons it contains. And pretty soon, the campaigns will just be all lies all the time. Idiocracy, here we come, on the wings of the Republican party.
posted by Mental Wimp at 11:43 AM on September 9, 2008 [9 favorites]

Well, yes, Menino. I did mention Boston, which has a significantly larger population and budget than Wasilla, and quite the political history, to boot.

There are tons of politics around public libraries everywhere. But, in small towns, the city librarian is there because she's a librarian, not because she's a crony. Nor is cronyism expected.
posted by QIbHom at 11:47 AM on September 9, 2008

I just received the third piece of anti-Palin email spam since her nomination. It looks like a regular forwarded-too-many-times email that I get from time to time, but based on the unknown sender and the structure of the headers, it's almost certainly bulk-mailed spam. Talk about a grassroots campaign.
posted by GuyZero at 11:54 AM on September 9, 2008

QIbHom, Im sorry I was trying to make it clear that I am in total agreement with you. Treating a small town librarian position as if it's some big patronage position or playing any sort of BS politicking in a town that small just smacks of tiny fiefdom behavior and is unappealing.
posted by jessamyn at 12:06 PM on September 9, 2008

McCain/Palin open up huge lead in N. Carolina

Which confirms everything Konolia was saying right off the bat.
posted by cell divide at 12:56 PM on September 9, 2008

I was just headed over here to post that...mindblowing, isn't it?
posted by konolia at 1:03 PM on September 9, 2008

Alaskans: McCain/Palin are lying

“During her first speech after being named as McCain's surprise pick as a running mate, Palin said she had told Congress ‘'thanks but no thanks' on that bridge to nowhere.’

In the city Ketchikan, the planned site of the so-called ‘Bridge to Nowhere,’ political leaders of both parties said the claim was false and a betrayal of their community, because she had supported the bridge and the earmark for it secured by Alaska's Congressional delegation during her run for governor.

The bridge, a span from the city to Gravina Island, home to only a few dozen people, secured a $223 million earmark in 2005. The pricey designation raised a furor and critics, including McCain, used the bridge as an example of wasteful federal spending on politicians' pet projects.

When she was running for governor in 2006, Palin said she was insulted by the term ‘bridge to nowhere,’ according to Ketchikan Mayor Bob Weinstein, a Democrat, and Mike Elerding, a Republican who was Palin's campaign coordinator in the southeast Alaska city.

‘People are learning that she pandered to us by saying, I'm for this' ... and then when she found it was politically advantageous for her nationally, abruptly she starts using the very term that she said was insulting,’ Weinstein said.

Palin's spokeswoman in Alaska was not immediately available to comment.”

posted by ericb at 1:04 PM on September 9, 2008 [4 favorites]

Why is Palin building a road to connect to the Bridge to Nowhere she claims she opposes?

“I'd heard about the ‘Road to Nowhere’ but hadn't made the connection. Palin, who supported the Bridge to Nowhere just two years ago, is still building a road that is meant to connect to the bridge - the bridge she now claims is unnecessary pork.
'The state, however, never gave back any of the money that was originally earmarked for the Gravina Island bridge, said Weinstein and Elerding.

In fact, the Palin administration has spent ‘tens of millions of dollars’ in federal funds to start building a road on Gravina Island that is supposed to link up to the yet-to-be-built bridge, Weinstein said.'
She said 'thanks but no thanks,' but they kept the money,’ said Elerding about her applause line.

Oh yeah, and Palin kept every dime of the federal money that was appropriated for the Bridge to Nowhere. Every single freaking dime. So she's not only for pork, she's for 100% welfare hand-outs, no strings attached. At least pork is earmarked for specific wasteful projects. Palin prefers when you just hand her your federal tax dollars, in wheelbarrows, and let her decide how to waste it.”posted by ericb at 1:09 PM on September 9, 2008 [2 favorites]

OK, talk about mindblowing. This is not some skeleton in her closet; this just happened.

A summary:

On Sunday, August 31, Major General Craig Campbell, Adjutant General of the Alaska National Guard, tells the AP that “he and Palin play no role in national defense activities, even when they involve the Alaska National Guard.”

On Wednesday, September 3, Campbell is quoted by the Boston Globe, adding more details: the Governor is not in the chain of command at Fort Greeley, an anti-missile launch site; deployments by the Guard to Iraq and Afghanistan are not under Gov. Palin’s authority. She has a limited role in determining how forces are trained or equipped for domestic missions (firefighting and rescue operations, mostly); her primary role is recruiting volunteers.

On Friday, September 5, Campbell appears on Fox News, praising Palin. He says he is unhappy with “the insinuation that a commander-in-chief of the National Guard doesn't really control the military…National Guards are state military forces run by governors, and Sarah Palin does it great.”

On Monday, September 8, Campbell is promoted within the Alaska National Guard to the rank of Lieutenant General.

Oh, and by the way…Campbell had previously instituted a freeze on all promotions because of low recruitment
posted by neroli at 1:16 PM on September 9, 2008 [23 favorites]

Another revelation to me (patience; I'm slow on the uptake). It's clear that until the rabidly anti-choice candidate Palin was chosen for the ticket, the single-issue anti-choice voters had to choose between two essentially pro-choice candidates and so had to choose on the quality of their other policies. Now that McComplain has an anti-choice partner, they can revert to their single-issue ways and vote for the less competent, but ideologically satisfying slate.
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:18 PM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

Halperin, teasing upcoming polls like there's no tomorrow, as always.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 1:20 PM on September 9, 2008

Anchorage Daily News: Questions for Palin

“Here are some of the questions Palin should be answering, for Alaskans and the rest of the country:
• You present yourself as a Republican maverick who took on your own party's corrupt political establishment. In November's election, your party is running an indicted U.S. Senator, Ted Stevens, who is awaiting trial on charges he accepted more than $250,000 of unreported gifts from the state's most powerful lobbyist. Will you vote for his opponent? Will you urge Alaskans to help you change Washington and vote him out of office? If not, why not?

• Sen. Ted Stevens' trial is still pending; he has declined to say whether he would accept a pardon from President Bush before Bush leaves office in January. Do Alaska voters deserve an answer to that question before they cast their vote for or against Stevens in November? What is your position on a president pardoning a public official before a jury has ruled on guilt or innocence?

• Alaska Congressman Don Young appears to have won his Republican primary, even though you endorsed his opponent. Will you vote for your fellow Republican Don Young, who has spent over $1 million on legal fees without telling his constituents what sort of legal trouble he is in?

• Why have you reneged on your earlier pledge to cooperate with the Alaska Legislature's investigation into Troopergate?

• In spring of 2004, the Daily News reported that you cited family considerations in deciding not to try for the U.S. Senate: ‘How could I be the team mom if I was a U.S. senator?’ What was different this time as you decided to run for vice president?

• As governor of Alaska, you have not pushed for laws or regulations that put your personal views on abortion, same-sex marriage and creationism into public policy. As vice president, will you push to outlaw abortion, restrict same-sex marriage and require the teaching of creationism?

• If you were a fully qualified vice-presidential candidate from the get-go, why did you wait more than 10 days to face reporters?

• McCain spokesman Rick Davis told Fox News the media didn't show you enough ‘deference.’ How much deference do you expect to get from Vladimir Putin or Hugo Chavez?

• You have said victory is in sight in Iraq. In July 2007, when you visited Kuwait, you said, ‘I'm not going to judge the surge.’ In the March 2007 issue of Alaska Business Monthly, you were asked about the surge and quoted saying:
‘I've been so focused on state government, I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq…While I support our president, Condoleezza Rice and the administration, I want to know that we have an exit plan in place.’
Define ‘victory’ in Iraq? What is the exit plan?
BOTTOM LINE: The nation deserves to hear Palin's unfiltered answers to serious questions.”

posted by ericb at 1:52 PM on September 9, 2008 [15 favorites]

Halperin is warped. Seriously biased, but that's a story for another day. I'm sure the poll will show McCain leading, just like the NC one did. This is it. This is the big flourish, the big surge where it's clear, plainly evident that the economy, the ridiculous war, the horrible governing - ignore all that and look at the Americanness of McCain/Palin. Which is of course code for what nobody wants to get into.

That's distracting people. McCain and Palin are just trying to say a bunch of nothing, lie when they do talk, and just hope that people are too busy looking at them to actually sit there and think. Maybe they can keep up the "pay no attention to the issues! thing and actually win the election.

Perhaps the debates will help the issues come back to the forefront.
posted by cashman at 1:52 PM on September 9, 2008

...by riling up and nailing down the base, Palin performs an even more valuable function for McCain: She allows him to ignore the wingnuts and sprint hard toward the center. To focus on issues where McCain’s positions appeal to moderate and independent voters. [...] These calculations undergirded almost every element of McCain’s own speech to the convention...its central political thrust was an appeal to bi-partisanship. “Again and again, I’ve worked with members of both parties to fix problems that need to be fixed,” McCain said. “That’s how I will govern as president. I will reach out my hand to anyone to help me get this country moving again. … Instead of rejecting good ideas because we didn’t think of them first, let’s use the best ideas from both sides. Instead of fighting over who gets the credit, let’s try sharing it. This amazing country can do anything we put our minds to. I will ask Democrats and independents to serve with me.”

The speech, in other words, was an attempt to revive the McCain brand of old: the reformer, the change agent, the maverick. This task is essential for McCain to have a chance to win in November; he needs to pick off sufficient numbers of independent voters to turn back the Democratic tide. A pure-base strategy will not do...

The Sixty-Day War: The New Realities of the 2008 Presidential Election [via]
posted by daniel_charms at 1:53 PM on September 9, 2008

It's clear that until the rabidly anti-choice candidate Palin was chosen for the ticket, the single-issue anti-choice voters had to choose between two essentially pro-choice candidates and so had to choose on the quality of their other policies.

Actually, McCain is also quite anti-choice. The main beef that anti-abortion groups had with him is that his McCain-Feingold campaign finance reform bill made it more difficult for groups like the National Right to Life Committee to influence elections through "soft money."
posted by jonp72 at 2:17 PM on September 9, 2008

The headline on yahoo: "Obama tries to steal Nebraska electoral vote from McCain." The article is actually about Barack Obama reaching out to voters in places other campaigns didn't really bother to in past years. But nice headline making it seem like he did something illegal that is huge news. The accompanying picture is awesome too. Nothing like the name and the guy in the picture to accentuate things.

I knew this would begin to start, but I guess I've been harboring some kind of weird hope that it wouldn't.
posted by cashman at 2:18 PM on September 9, 2008

I just got this from my brother. What makes people vote Republican?

His comment: "The Haidt article is interesting, as are the responses to it, but these pieces are written by intellectuals who live in an environment where reasoned argument is prized. I live in Florida."
posted by lysdexic at 2:27 PM on September 9, 2008 [11 favorites]

Actually, McCain is also quite anti-choice.

It was my impression that this is a newly acquired mantle, one without much enthusiasm on his part and one which raises suspicions among the faithful that he is just mouthing support. I believe he has stated in the past that Roe v. Wade should not be overturned, but more recently has reversed his position (flip-flopped, in the lingua franca of the Repugnicans).
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:03 PM on September 9, 2008

That was an interesting article lysdexic and one with which I largely agree.
posted by caddis at 3:07 PM on September 9, 2008

Cashman, I follow your link and the headline shows as: Omaha's electoral vote draws Obama's attention

Ya think her editor already spotted the bias attempt?
posted by clever sheep at 3:32 PM on September 9, 2008

Some weirdness going on at Andrew Sullivan's blog. He made this cryptic post two days ago and then went silent: very out of character for him. Then Marc Ambinder posted an entry saying he was fine, apparently there were a lot of people worried. Sullivan then posted a similar update to his own blog, saying he was just taking some time off. Then just a few minutes ago, he posted his quote of the day:

"Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen."
"Whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent."

Much speculation at Matthew Yglesias's blog.
posted by EarBucket at 3:42 PM on September 9, 2008

I think a little Road to Nowhere is really quite appropriate right now. Probably not a good idea for anyone's campaign music, though.
posted by dilettante at 4:25 PM on September 9, 2008

Cashman, I follow your link and the headline shows as: Omaha's electoral vote draws Obama's attention

Ya think her editor already spotted the bias attempt?

It was on the front page of yahoo. I could have linked to the front page of yahoo, but.

I could have taken a screenshot, but it was definitely up there - it was never in the article itself, it was the "catchy" headline leading to the article. I'm probably just sensitive lately. I don't know - probably confirmation bias, who knows.

Update: I definitely wasn't the only one who noticed, and it looks like others contacted yahoo (I did nothing) and Yahoo corrected the title to read "Obama tries to take Omaha's electoral vote from McCain."
posted by cashman at 4:30 PM on September 9, 2008

Oh for Christ's sake.

Obama on the McCain-Palin "change" meme:

"You can put lipstick on a pig, it's still a pig. You can wrap an old fish in a piece of paper called 'change,' it's still gonna stink. We've had enough of the same old thing. It’s time to bring about real change to Washington and that’s the choice you’ve got in this election."

McCain's people are already attacking this as Obama calling Palin a pig. This despite the fact that McCain himself has used the same idiom in describing Hillary Clinton's healthcare plan:

McCain criticized Democratic contenders for offering what he called costly universal health care proposals that require too much government regulation. While he said he had not studied Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton's health-care plan, he said it was "eerily reminiscent" of the failed plan she offered as first lady in the early 1990s.

"I think they put some lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig," he said of her proposal.

The cognitive dissonance. It burns.
posted by Rhaomi at 4:51 PM on September 9, 2008

Santorum Chastises ‘Feminist Community’ For Not Embracing Palin.
posted by ericb at 5:04 PM on September 9, 2008

This is making me sick. All of it is making me sick. Just when I think I can no longer be appalled by anything they do, they appall me further.
posted by mothershock at 5:11 PM on September 9, 2008

Jesus wept. I'm verging on impolite words, here.
posted by cortex at 5:30 PM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

Actually, McCain is also quite anti-choice.

It was my impression that this is a newly acquired mantle, one without much enthusiasm on his part and one which raises suspicions among the faithful that he is just mouthing support.

If you look at McCain's voting record, he's clearly not a pro-choicer. According to NARAL's summary of his voting record, "During his four years in the House, then-Rep. McCain cast 11 votes on abortion and other reproductive-rights issues. Ten of these votes were anti-choice. In the Senate, Sen. McCain has cast 119 votes on abortion and other reproductive-rights issues, 115 of which were anti-choice."

The source of the confusion is that his public statements, especially his statements during his 2000 campaign for the presidency, are much more ambiguous on the subject of abortion than his voting record. The ambiguity of his abortion talk on the stump closely mirrors the ambivalence that the "mushy middle" of American public opinion has about abortion, but he votes the pro-choice position only 1% of the time or less. The cloudiness of his public rhetoric on abortion in 2000 only increased, because he had the White House in his sights.

In fact, McCain's disingenuous dissembling on abortion is central to his image as a maverick. "Maverick" is practically a code word for "a Republican who is pro-choice." One of the reasons McCain appeals to non-conservatives and independents is that he votes for all these regressive socially conservative policies, but his fan club in the media assures us he doesn't really mean it. For example, when Debra Bartoshevich, a disgruntled Democratic delegate for Hillary Clinton, appeared in an ad endorsing John McCain, she was apparently clueless about McCain's anti-abortion record and views when she did so. McCain's plan to get elected depends on hiding how much he supports anti-abortion views. Don't fall for it.
posted by jonp72 at 5:42 PM on September 9, 2008 [2 favorites]

If Santorum is upset, I must be doing something right. Yayz!

I think the Repubs should use Pat Boone's version of "Enter Sandman" the next time they need a catchy ditty for rallies and such.

(To our Canadian buddies, welcome to your own election hell. Luckouts. Yours will be over a month before ours. Maybe we can borrow Rick Mercer after you get done with yours?)
posted by QIbHom at 5:43 PM on September 9, 2008

Un.freaking.real. Seriously. I've somehow gone through the mirror into SurrealWorld.

Obama needs to get off his white horse and do something about the trolls. Seriously. Respond! Do something!
posted by dejah420 at 5:50 PM on September 9, 2008

If you look at McCain's voting record, he's clearly not a pro-choicer.

Well, I meant in the sense that he was not in favor of overturning Roe v. Wade, not that he was in favor of removing all legislative restrictions, like the parental notification bullshit, and the "information" bullshit. As far as the anti-choice people care, anyone who doesn't support the complete overturn of RVW is a godless baby-killer. That's the sense relevant to the Palin pick.
posted by Mental Wimp at 5:52 PM on September 9, 2008

I find it astounding that I'm actually seeing a country self-destruct in real time.
posted by five fresh fish at 5:54 PM on September 9, 2008 [5 favorites]

I've hesitated on commenting on this, because I don't want to come across as judging someone based on their attractiveness, but I don't really get this reaction to her. I don't think she's hot.

Eh, I think she's pretty hot, especially in profile. She's a little overweight, but for someone who's had five kids I mean, come on.

Well Koch should have read Factcheck.org before he went with the innuendo. I'm glad he has settled on a canditate and that it's the one I've supported over a year now

The factcheck.org piece is bizarrely misleading on it's own. Some people may have claimed incorrectly that Palin tried to ban books and fired the Librarian, but what actually happened is that Sarah asked the librarian to how to ban books, and when the librarian balked at the request Sarah did in fact try to fire her. It was only after a recall campaign was started that she gave up on trying to fire the librarian. Nothing Kotch said is misleading, and in fact the "factcheck.org" piece is!

Just because you put the word "fact" in your URL doesn't make what you say true. She tried and failed to fire the librarian, but the factcheck.org article simply says that the librarian kept her job.

This is making me sick. All of it is making me sick. Just when I think I can no longer be appalled by anything they do, they appall me further.

That kind of thing can backfire. There was a famous add in 2006 talking about how some incumbent voted to fund research of the "masturbation habits of old men" Of course it was part of some huge bill, and the incumbent was reelected. If you say something crazy like that, people just won't believe it. Of course, Rush Limbaugh types have been lying about liberals for years, so some people deep into that culture might believe something like that, but they'll probably be voting for McCain anyway.
posted by delmoi at 5:57 PM on September 9, 2008

Remember folks, it's not about the issues!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:57 PM on September 9, 2008

I really really wish that Obama could do right now for truth-telling what he did for race with his speech in Philadelphia, and have a national press conference to essentially call out McCain & the Republican party for reneging on the concept of the fair fight, for taking the low road, for resorting to outright lies and smears, and all of the appalling politics-as-usual dirty tactics they're employing. The media isn't going to call them on it, that's for damn sure. And taking the high road in this kind of climate doesn't work if the people easily swayed by unsubstantiated claims don't realize you're on it.
posted by mothershock at 6:11 PM on September 9, 2008

I suggest those progressive Americans here with the means make their Plan B. France is a nice place to live.

I have now revised my prediction for 2008 to give McCain a 77% change of taking the White House. And the GOP holding it for another 8 years.

I base my calculations on two things:

#1 America has clearly demonstrated it has crossed the threshold into idocracy. Those of you who thought I was needlessly cynical or mistaken need no more proof than this:

For the sixth time I have heard a high placed McCain operative, including John McCain himself, put forth the absurdist notion that Sarah Palin "has foreign policy experience due to Alaska's proximity to Russia" this DESPITE the fact the women never had a passport until 2007 and has never been to Russia and has met with ZERO high level Russian government officials.

This claim goes utterly unchallenged by the MSM. Obviously a person with an IQ above 70 would understand how idiotic this idea is. So why? Why do they say this? There is no other reason to say such moronic statement for any other purpose than to give mouth-breathers a talking a point. They need to believe Palin is experienced in Foriegn Policy. And this idiotic claim seals the deal for them.

And then there is the claim they are the party of Change. Despite being in charge and fucking everything up the last 8 years. Change?

Do we need any more proof that the GOP understands how fucking stupid their base truly is? If Karl Rove knows his base are morons, I suggest you also grok this fact.

#2 The democrats are still playing softball and allowing bandwidth to be wasted by nothing sex scandals and bullshit. (See #1) They had better grok how stupid people are and STOP giving them credit and get vicious.

I would like nothing better than to be wrong about all of the above. We shall see.
posted by tkchrist at 6:12 PM on September 9, 2008 [3 favorites]

Well, I meant in the sense that he was not in favor of overturning Roe v. Wade, not that he was in favor of removing all legislative restrictions, like the parental notification bullshit, and the "information" bullshit. As far as the anti-choice people care, anyone who doesn't support the complete overturn of RVW is a godless baby-killer. That's the sense relevant to the Palin pick.

Yes, but I view McCain's statements that he is opposed to overturning Roe v. Wade as misleading. What McCain believes about "overturning Roe v. Wade" is immaterial. McCain is a Senator running for President. He can't overturn Roe v. Wade. Only the Supreme Court can do that. And as far as we know, McCain is going to appoint justices in the mold of Scalia/Thomas/Roberts/Alito. On the stump, McCain will be kinda sorta pro-choice in a very watered-down way, but in order to get into office, he's going to implement anti-abortion policies that keep the base happy. McCain's seeming indifference to the topic of abortion may actually make him more effective in delivering the final blow to Roe v. Wade, because he'll bringing along a lot of deluded pro-choice fans of his "maverick" persona along with him.
posted by jonp72 at 6:19 PM on September 9, 2008

And then there is the claim they are the party of Change. Despite being in charge and fucking everything up the last 8 years. Change?

Destruction is change. Lots of things have changed in the past 8 years.
posted by dilettante at 6:33 PM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

The factcheck.org piece is bizarrely misleading on its own. Some people may have claimed incorrectly that Palin tried to ban books and fired the Librarian, but what actually happened is that Sarah asked the librarian to how to ban books, and when the librarian balked at the request Sarah did in fact try to fire her. It was only after a recall campaign was started that she gave up on trying to fire the librarian. Nothing Kotch said is misleading, and in fact the "factcheck.org" piece is!

Factcheck.org has done some good work, but I'm also convinced they're wedded to this fanciful notion of nonpartisan "balance," whereby every debunking of a Republican lie must weighed against the debunking of something a Democrat says. The only problem is that the Republicans are doing way more than 50% of the lying in this election. It's more like 90%/10%, and even that's probably too generous to the Republicans. The result is that you have deliberate GOP deceptions morally equated with minor factual errors made by Democrats. Mythical nonpartisan "balance" thus becomes the unwitting accomplice of Republican evil.
posted by jonp72 at 6:36 PM on September 9, 2008 [5 favorites]

Mythical nonpartisan "balance" thus becomes the unwitting accomplice of Republican evil.

At this point it seems like basically everything is the unwitting accomplice of Republican evil.
posted by dirtdirt at 6:40 PM on September 9, 2008

So today my GF and I finally volunteered for the campaign, helping staff the Joe Biden event in Columbia. It was really awesome, and we're really tired.

I'm scared though. It seems things are going nuclear...
posted by schyler523 at 6:46 PM on September 9, 2008

Also, I really like Rachel Maddow...
posted by schyler523 at 6:51 PM on September 9, 2008

I'd like to throw something out to the esteemed assembly here...do you understand just why it is all of a sudden that so many folks are jumping on the McCain bandwagon? Even though you have a brilliant wellspoken candidate on your end?

Please understand that for every one of you who is liberal, or prochoice, or thinks that government is the solution to many social problems or (name your pet Democratic doctrine), there is someone out there who sees the world differently from you, rejects out of hand what you take as a given, believes that your path is wrong and misguided (as you do theirs...) I think that that segment of our society has found its voice, and is standing up for what they hold dear-just as you do.

At the start of this thread many of you were certain Palin would not last the weekend as the VP nominee. I'm sure that by now that you realize how wrong you were on that point.

All I really set out to do, as I participated on this thread, was to try to let you know that that other America existed, was alive and well, and was in the process of letting that be known. I'm kinda thinking that for some of you that was a real shock.

Look, no matter who grabs the brass ring in November, the world won't come to an end. I have lived too long and seen too many elections and survived too many Presidents of varying calibers...we will be all right.
posted by konolia at 7:03 PM on September 9, 2008

If Elected ...
Obama Looks to Lessons From Chicago in His National Education Plan

Chicago received $49 million from a $500 million endowment by Walter H. Annenberg, the billionaire publisher, for school reform efforts nationwide, and the city added $98 million in matching funds for the Chicago Annenberg Challenge, a philanthropic campaign that financed enrichment projects at a third of the city’s 600 schools.

Mr. Obama was nominated to the Challenge board and was elected chairman in 1995, said Ken Rolling, executive director of the group, which operated through 2001. Mr. Obama continued to teach law during his five-year unpaid tenure as board chairman, and he was twice elected to the Illinois Senate.

Several board members, including two university presidents, far outranked Mr. Obama in education experience.

“Let me say the room had no shortage of egos, including my own,” said Stanley O. Ikenberry, a board member who at the time was president of the University of Illinois. “It was unusual: here you had a person trained in the law chairing a board on school reform.” Still, he said, Mr. Obama won his colleagues’ respect.
posted by schyler523 at 7:07 PM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

Flip-flopping on family values

A funny thing happened when WRKO conservative talk host Reese Hopkins told listeners 17-year-old Bristol Palin's pregnancy makes him question VP hopeful Sarah Palin's parenting skills. Angry Republican listeners blew up his e-mail box, claiming Bristol's condition is family business. And Hopkins, who talked extensively on-air about the suspicious Gloucester teen pregnancy pact, was a little shocked. "You called these girls sluts, you said their parents were horrible," he said of his listeners. "But in 125 e-mails I have stacked in front of me, you're telling me [Bristol Palin's pregnancy] is not a big deal." Hopkins went back to the e-mails he received on the Gloucester story and compared them to his Palin e-mails. He found 70 listeners who flip-flopped on the teen pregnancy issue and invited them to explain.
posted by jonp72 at 7:16 PM on September 9, 2008 [15 favorites]

Seconding the need for Obama to do something to respond to the swirling falsehoods beyond issuing a press release. These consistent lies, along with the momentum of the Palin announcement, arguably pose a greater threat to Obama's candidacy than the Jeremiah Wright controversy did. They're constructing a narrative here, that Palin has made McCain invincible and that Obama is on the verge of choking. This cannot stand. The Palin narrative has got to be dismantled before the cloud it's casting over the race becomes the conventional wisdom.

The best way to do that is for Obama to make a very strong, very bold public statement calling out the outright lies of the McCain campaign in clear, unambiguous terms. They're getting away with the lying because the details are fuzzy, uncertain. The pundits and guests debate the merits of each side of each conflict, basically shouting over each other for two minutes and then moving on, leaving the smear essentially unchallenged. Millions of low-information voters are left with the impression that Obama is some liberal pervert who wants to expose their kids to sex, or that he thinks any small-town woman who asserts herself is a pig. If Obama made a high-profile statement detailing exactly how McCain's people are contradicting, distorting, and fabricating it would arrest the media's attention and make it more difficult for such insidious ideas to spread, while at the same pouring water on the Palin distraction.

The media has made a few weak, low-level attempts at such confrontations. But Obama needs to spark off a much more thorough examination of the lies if he wants to counter them effectively. At this point a press release doing same would just get incorporated as a brief quote in whatever media segment happens to be discussing the back-and-forth; it would get lost in the noise. He needs to do something much more game-changing.

The whole "Sarah Palin is being unfairly attacked" meme came out of the woodwork pretty quickly. Why not "Barack Obama's policies are being lied about repeatedly"? Or even just "The McCain campaign is lying" -- period?
posted by Rhaomi at 7:18 PM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

Look, no matter who grabs the brass ring in November, the world won't come to an end.

Even if John McCain decides to bomb, bomb, bomb Iran on a whim?
posted by jonp72 at 7:22 PM on September 9, 2008 [2 favorites]

US Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama may be struggling to nudge ahead of his Republican rival in polls at home, but people across the world want him in the White House, a BBC poll said.

All 22 countries covered in the poll would prefer to see Senator Obama elected US president ahead of Republican John McCain.

In 17 of the 22 nations, people expect relations between the US and the rest of the world to improve if Senator Obama wins.

More than 22,000 people were questioned by pollster GlobeScan in countries ranging from Australia to India and across Africa, Europe and South America.

The margin in favour of Senator Obama ranged from 9 per cent in India to 82 per cent in Kenya, while an average of 49 per cent across the 22 countries preferred Senator Obama compared with 12 per cent preferring Senator McCain. Some four in 10 did not take a view.

...

A total of 23,531 people in Australia, Brazil, Canada, China, Egypt, France, Germany, India, Indonesia, Italy, Kenya, Lebanon, Mexico, Nigeria, Panama, the Philippines, Poland, Russia, Singapore, Turkey, the UAE, Britain and the United States were interviewed face-to-face or by telephone in July and August 2008 for the poll.
posted by Rhaomi at 7:31 PM on September 9, 2008

I'd like to throw something out to the esteemed assembly here...do you understand just why it is all of a sudden that so many folks are jumping on the McCain bandwagon? Even though you have a brilliant wellspoken candidate on your end?

Um...yeah, but I don't think those reasons are honorable, respectable or intelligent in many cases. I think you could almost run a goat and a horse for republican nominees for pres & vp and as long as they hoofed out their anti-abortion position, why a significant number of republicans would vote for them.

Please understand that for every one of you who is liberal, or prochoice, or thinks that government is the solution to many social problems or (name your pet Democratic doctrine), there is someone out there who sees the world differently from you, rejects out of hand what you take as a given, believes that your path is wrong and misguided (as you do theirs...) I think that that segment of our society has found its voice, and is standing up for what they hold dear-just as you do.

I think it's fine to differ on the issues, but this election is explicitly not about issues on the republican side - that's been made plainly clear. That's why Palin is running. And running and running. I wasn't kidding when I say these people aren't worth your vote, k.

At the start of this thread many of you were certain Palin would not last the weekend as the VP nominee. I'm sure that by now that you realize how wrong you were on that point.

I knew she wasn't going anywhere, just like you. So that was no shock. I'm sure I'm not the only one who said she wasn't going anywhere.

Look, no matter who grabs the brass ring in November, the world won't come to an end. I have lived too long and seen too many elections and survived too many Presidents of varying calibers...we will be all right.

Sheeeeeeit. McCain voted against MLK's holiday! He voted to end Katrina victim's funding (under a guise). Now he's slamming one of the best nominees for president I could imagine. Millions of black kids and adults alike see Obama handling all this stuff, and can't imagine how someone could do any better. And McCain is already pulling dirty trick after dirty trick. And that's not even mentioning the scores of human beings will die as McCain wipes them out without hesitation. Though they'll just be those brown folk overseas somewhere in a country Americans can't find on the map. Sorry to break it to you, but realize a lot of the people you're talking to are similarly old and experienced. I'm sorry, but no, "we" will not be all right if McCain takes office with inferior ideas, inferior personnel, and a weak mandate from him distracting enough of the populace to eke out a victory. And then perhaps dies and leaves us with President Palin.

No, "we" will not be all right if it happens that way. If the republicans cage votes, mislead, lie and distract their way into office, those already increasingly limited freedoms we have will tighten, and if the economy bottoms out under the bewildered McCain eye, NO, "we" will not be all right. If McCain takes us to war as he's joked - JOKED about, ends up killing thousands of innocent civilians, no, Konolia, "we" will not be all right.
posted by cashman at 7:44 PM on September 9, 2008 [18 favorites]

For those, a few, asking for my views on why I dislike McCain and/or like Palin, I'm not interested in an ugly shout fest. I will urge you to read the following, by atheist, socialist, far-left libs for some insight into my thinking.

Camille Paglia writing in Salon(four pages, I urge to to read it all before you pop off at the mouth with some rehashed argument about something someone might have said about Palin, maybe.):

Conservative though she may be, I felt that Palin represented an explosion of a brand new style of muscular American feminism. At her startling debut on that day, she was combining male and female qualities in ways that I have never seen before. And she was somehow able to seem simultaneously reassuringly traditional and gung-ho futurist. In terms of redefining the persona for female authority and leadership, Palin has made the biggest step forward in feminism since Madonna channeled the dominatrix persona of high-glam Marlene Dietrich and rammed pro-sex, pro-beauty feminism down the throats of the prissy, victim-mongering, philistine feminist establishment.

Chris Hitchens, writing in Slate:

Interviewed by Rick Warren at the grotesque Saddleback megachurch a short while ago, Sen. Barack Obama announced that Jesus had died on the cross to redeem him personally. How he knew this he did not say. But it will make it exceedingly difficult for him, or his outriders and apologists, to ridicule Palin for her own ludicrous biblical literalist beliefs. She has inarticulately said that her gubernatorial work would be hampered "if the people of Alaska's heart isn't right with god." Her local shout-and-holler tabernacle apparently believes that Jews can be converted to Jesus and homosexuals can be "cured." I cannot wait to see Obama and Biden explain how this isn't the case or how it's much worse than, and quite different from, Obama's own raving and ranting pastor in Chicago or Biden's lifelong allegiance to the most anti-"choice" church on the planet. The difference, if there is one, is that Palin is probably sincere whereas the Democratic team is almost certainly hypocritical. The same is true of the boring contest over who can be the most populist, and of the positively sinister race to see who can be the most demagogically anti-Washington. With this kind of immaturity right across both tickets, it's insulting to be asked to decide on the basis of experience, let alone "readiness."

Again, read the whole thing.

And, again, Mickey Kaus:
Tomorrow's Marching Orders Today: If there were some sort of tacit liberal MSM conspiracy--a hypothetical!--Plan 1 was to knock Palin off the ticket out of the box with various unvetted home state scandals. Plan 2, the plan currently in place, is to force Palin to submit to "real interviews" where she will supposedly reveal her embarrassing unpreparedness for the office.

May I suggest to my fellow conspirators that we move directly on to Plan 3: Forget Palin. Stop writing about her. If we make the election about Palin, we will lose. She'll probably win her debate and will almost certainly handle the interviews well enough (to the satisfaction of the voters, at least, if not the experts). The election's not about Palin. It's about McCain. We can beat McCain.

Everyone does not think like you and the crowd you hang with. I suggest you embrace the 'other' a bit. Think outside the narrow walls of party and self-interest, if you don't already.
posted by dawson at 7:46 PM on September 9, 2008

Look, no matter who grabs the brass ring in November, the world won't come to an end. I have lived too long and seen too many elections and survived too many Presidents of varying calibers...we will be all right.

But you're not all right right now!

Name a single indication that things are "all right" in the USA.

You can't. The economy is in shambles. The health care system is twice as expensive and half as effective as it should be. The schools are falling apart. The gap between the rich and the poor is greater than it has ever been. Homelessness rates are skyrocketing. Unemployment is rising.

You might be doing okay. The nation is definitively not doing okay.

Please, tell me how a McCain presidency can help, not harm, the nation. I'm simply dying to know.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:47 PM on September 9, 2008 [5 favorites]

Perhaps I shouldn't have added that last graph...some will no doubt take it as a personal affront and miss the point of my post. All I will add is that the statement was not intended for anyone in particular, I had no one in mind. The unwillingness to accept other viewpoints as possibly valid has no party line. Also, if the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it. Just read the linked articles and respond to them, maybe. Or don't. But don't assume that everyone who likes Palin is a dolt. If you do Obama will surely lose.
posted by dawson at 7:52 PM on September 9, 2008

ZOMG! She's actually Delores Umbridge!
posted by schyler523 at 7:53 PM on September 9, 2008

there is someone out there who sees the world differently from you, rejects out of hand what you take as a given, believes that your path is wrong and misguided (as you do theirs...) I think that that segment of our society has found its voice, and is standing up for what they hold dear-just as you do.

I think that segment of society found its voice four and eight years ago.

And look what happened.

Why on earth do you wish a repeat of that disasterous decision?
posted by five fresh fish at 8:01 PM on September 9, 2008

five fresh fish,
actually other than my OCD and minor bi-polar I actually AM alright now. Especially compared with most of the other 6 billion. And surely compared with the mass of humanity who has 'gone before'.
So I guess I'll speak for myself on that issue. Of course some say I am going to hell, and I can't stop them or please them. So in that sense I suppose you can say whatever you wish.
I agree with Kolinia's statement above.
posted by dawson at 8:03 PM on September 9, 2008

I'm scared though. It seems things are going nuclear...
posted by schyler523 at 6:46 PM on September 9 [+] [!]

Oh yeah. That teaching-sex-in-kindergarten ad is disgusting, and people who were pissed are now pissed to the pissedth power.

I've been obsessively following the left blogs for the past few days. (Really, it's scary...I've lost my mind a little.) I saw the first glimmerings of the "When do you use the word 'lie'?" conversation, which is still flowing upwards into the mainstream.

The questions starting up now--on the Obama-supporter side--are: Is it time to get really, really tough? What does that mean? Who should do it?

I wonder what kind of role YouTube is going to play in the next couple months. I don't want to overestimate its power...but remember "Obama Girl"?

I don't think the John McCain Called his Wife a Cunt video will have quite that impact. It's funny, and it does point out the fact that John McCain called his wife a cunt, and does have the potential to turn "John McCain called his wife a cunt" a catchphrase.

That's one tactic.

Another seems to be: You want to play with fear, motherfucker--we'll show you fear.

(Essential viewing, I think.)
posted by neroli at 8:04 PM on September 9, 2008 [4 favorites]

Just read the linked articles and respond to them, maybe.

No. You just happened to pick three figures who are among the most repulsive members of the political commentariat (and none of whom are "far-left," especially not Camille Paglia). A drunken, reflexively contrarian turd and a pseudo-intellectual who milks her brand of "libertarian" macho right-wing feminism for all its worth. Their support for any given viewpoint generally discredits it more than anything else.
posted by nasreddin at 8:04 PM on September 9, 2008 [2 favorites]

I'd like to throw something out to the esteemed assembly here...do you understand just why it is all of a sudden that so many folks are jumping on the McCain bandwagon? Even though you have a brilliant wellspoken candidate on your end?

I think I do, konolia, and I thank you for asking. Genuinely. I had to sit back and think about it for a minute, and take genuine stock of my some of my beliefs and my justifications for them. But I think I am beginning to understand, and I'm glad you're still around to tell us about it.

But I want to present a different angle on our point of view. Answer the following questions if you want to, but understand that they aren't directed specifically at you; I'm asking a hypothetical archetype "conservative", the way you were kind of asking the collective opinion of this largely left-leaning site. I'm not going to go digging back through your posting history to determine whether or not I'm going to get the particular, personal answers from you that I'm expecting. Doesn't matter. But imagine how this conversation might go.

Did you vote for Bush? Did you support him? Okay, now, looking back: do you think he was a good president? Taking everything into account — the economy, the war, education, his abortion policy (seriously; I know you're pro-life but he had 4 years of a Republican Congress and conservative Justices and nothing got changed), the inability of Americans to get affordable health care, the failure of the government to respond to domestic and international crises, the graft and pandering to the ultrarich, the diminished US presence on the world stage: are you glad he was president? Do you think he was good for the country? Do you think things are better?

I can't know what your answers to those questions are. Perhaps you would say "yes" all around. But given his approval rating, and given that the Republicans are running away from him as fast as they can, I think it's safe to say that most Americans would answer "no". Most Americans agree that he has done a poor job. The statistics and the behavior of his own party bear that out.

Here's the thing, though: we knew that. We, progressives: we knew he was going to be terrible. The same way you knew that Sarah Palin was going to be popular and energize the McCain ticket, we knew, back in 2000 and before, that he was going to be a terrible president. And we tried to tell you! We tried politely, and yes, a great many of us tried very rudely and without any real understanding of your perspective. But we did try to tell you, and not because we hate you, but because we love our country and we want the best for it. And see, we weren't just saying that we disagreed with his policies, although we did say that a lot because it's nicer-sounding and we thought maybe it would be the smarter way of getting you to vote against him. Beyond that we were genuinely saying: he will be a bad president. Him specifically. Not necessarily all Republicans; him. We knew he was going to suck.

And it feels like the same thing is happening. We feel, again, like you have chosen a representative who would make a bad president, not (or at least not just) because of his policies and positions and history, but because he is genuinely unfit to lead. And we can't frame it that way publicly, because we know it's not going to convince anybody. But what you are seeing here is a lot of well-meaning, intelligent progressives who love America and who are sick to their stomachs because it looks like it's happening all over again. We are being ignored and belittled and we don't hate you, we don't want to hate you, but you're killing us. McCain and Palin will actively do harm to this country and its people, exactly the same way and for exactly the same reason that Bush has actively done harm to this country and its people. The vast majority of people agree that Bush has done harm; we genuinely can't understand why they can't follow that line of perception to its natural conclusion.

Yes, we disagree with your politics. And so maybe that makes it hard to believe us, the way so few of us wanted to believe you about Palin. But we got Bush right, you know? We were on top of that.

Vote for who you want to, obviously. You're right, either way it's not going to be the end of the world. And for my part, if McCain wins and things here get even worse and 4 or 8 years down the road we're sitting on Metafilter talking about the next election, I won't be saying "I told you so." I'll just be pleading, again, that you think about how things have gone and make a decision about how you want things to be. You can understand that, can't you?
posted by penduluum at 8:05 PM on September 9, 2008 [45 favorites]

All I really set out to do, as I participated on this thread, was to try to let you know that that other America existed, was alive and well, and was in the process of letting that be known. I'm kinda thinking that for some of you that was a real shock.

Look, no matter who grabs the brass ring in November, the world won't come to an end. I have lived too long and seen too many elections and survived too many Presidents of varying calibers...we will be all right.

I don'teven know why i keep on with this...It's fascinating to say the least.

It's not that we don't know that other America exists. It's just that the other America made a VERY poor choice in the past two elections.

Tell the families of the soldiers who died in Iraq that "we will be alright"

Tell the families who lost everything in Hurrican Katrina that "we will be alright"

Tell the people who lost their retirements to Enron that "we will be alright"

I could go on, but I just finished watching the last episode of "Generation Kill" and I'm on the verge of saying very naughty words.

There really are two Americas. One constant reminder of that is the conservative hero worship of Ronald Reagan. The prevailing wisdom is that he was a Great President and a Great man. During the RNC I even heard the quotethat Reagan "saved America". Your other America may be completely justified in loving that man. But just as we have to acknowledge your America, you have to acknowledge ours.

If you were Poor, Minority, Mentally Ill, Elderly, or lived in an inner city, or god forbid any combination of those things during the reagan years, you caught hell. Those were very hard years for a lot of people. There are segments of our society that have never recovered from some of the actions of that administration.

My point in all of this is that you are more than welcome to blissfully live in your "other America" safe from harm, and content that everything will be alright. God bless you and keep you safe.

In my America, I don't have that guarantee, and therefore continue to be of the opinion that this stuff is important.
posted by billyfleetwood at 8:06 PM on September 9, 2008 [11 favorites]

fff, I was referring to your prior statement, not the one that numbered 4409. Sorry for that bad timing.
posted by dawson at 8:07 PM on September 9, 2008

The best way to do that is for Obama to make a very strong, very bold public statement calling out the outright lies of the McCain campaign in clear, unambiguous terms.

I'm not sure that getting down into the mud with the pigs is the way to go.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:09 PM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

of course, nasreddin, yes of course.
posted by dawson at 8:11 PM on September 9, 2008

The whole "Sarah Palin is being unfairly attacked" meme came out of the woodwork pretty quickly. Why not "Barack Obama's policies are being lied about repeatedly"? Or even just "The McCain campaign is lying" -- period?

Because it's a dog-bites-man story. The lies of the McCain campaign are old news.
posted by grouse at 8:19 PM on September 9, 2008

Deep breaths, deep breaths ... admittedly, things look scary. I've been nauseous since Palin was named and unable to shake my unease. The new polls and the huge, chanting drill-drill-drill-USA rallies are unnerving ... a baseball bat bludgeoning in the face of idealism, a shock to those who were confident that rationalism, truth, and hope would prevail.

Many of us were lulled by McCains lackluster performance so this has been a huge, unexpected wrench thrown into the works. But it's only been a little over a week, no conclusions can be drawn yet. We are just seeing the convention and surprise announcement bounce and since then, there has been a relentless drip drip drip as the real Sarah is slowly unveiled ... this news has not been factored in yet and when it is, things will likely even out and look more promising.

It was to be expected that things would be scary and hair-raising. Did anyone really think the vested classes would give up their iron grip on power without a death match? These are the people who already stole two elections and demonstrated they will stop at nothing to tighten control. And did anybody really think that it would be easy for a black man to be elected to the nation's highest office in the good ol' boy USA? It is likely now that Rove & crew are engaged there will be many more surprises.

This dark and scary hour should be a wake-up call for us all to shake off any hubris and knuckle down. It is a blunt reminder of the seriousness of the stakes. If you wrote a check before, write another. Find the undecideds in your circle of family, friends or colleagues, and adopt and shadow them with relentless and kindly suasion. Put up a sign. Volunteer. Write letters to the media everyday - to criticize unfair coverage, to demand fair coverage that will address the lies, and to praise good coverage. There are some mammoth media lists in this post and the first few comments.

Just do something now, not next week. This is deadly serious for our future. Do not go gentle into that good night / Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
posted by madamjujujive at 8:21 PM on September 9, 2008 [8 favorites]

Konolia, I have seen as many presidents come and go as you, and if this election goes to the Republicans again, I don't fear the end of the world. I do wish for a change.

I wish for president that would choose not prevaricate and generate xenophobia to use citizens of our great country as fodder for corporate greed. The present administration's philosophy ties American self worth to the state of American business. I feel we are being governed with a constant look to the bottom line - it's all commerce to them.

There are about twenty other reasons I just can't take the time to list now (environment, education, healthcare...hey, in a few weeks I get to join the uninsured!) But I worked two jobs today, had a meeting at school tonite and I am bleary eyed to say the least.

Although it is a stretch for me, I donated to the Obama/Biden campaign, and may again.

I know there are many opinions across the country and I understand that for someone who reads the bible as history, who truly believes in an afterlife that to them is just as real as our corporal existence, my concerns may be petty.

Right now I can only bank on the here and now, and what we have in front of us in the years to come. I want a better world for my kids.
posted by readery at 8:25 PM on September 9, 2008 [3 favorites]

Brandon Blatcher: "I'm not sure that getting down into the mud with the pigs is the way to go."

"Getting down in the mud" would involve the Obama campaign pursuing the same blatant falsehoods and twists of logic and selective ignorance of the facts that McCain's team has mastered in an effort to smear McCain with something revolting. It would require their high-level personnel, up to and including Obama himself, to repeat inane and offensive reasons to oppose McCain in the hopes that the lies fly over the heads of casual voters. It would look something like the ugly flare-up over Bristol Palin's pregnancy, something which the Obama campaign has thankfully taken no part in.

But when the McCain campaign consistently repeats talking points that are demonstrably false, saying as much in the public square is in no way "getting down in the mud". It's exposing that mud to the harsh light of scrutiny in hopes of drying it into a crumbling mess that leaves a permanent black mark on McCain's public image as an honorable man.
posted by Rhaomi at 8:29 PM on September 9, 2008 [3 favorites]

Also, I really like Rachel Maddow ...

On Fox News, Media Research Center's Tim Graham criticizes MSNBC for "adding this lesbian Air America radio host, Rachel Maddow" to its lineup.
posted by ericb at 8:40 PM on September 9, 2008

I think this will be the thread that breaks MetaFilter.
posted by neroli at 8:43 PM on September 9, 2008

Also...sorry to repeat myself, but if you haven't seen it:

THIS
posted by neroli at 8:47 PM on September 9, 2008 [2 favorites]

Look, no matter who grabs the brass ring in November, the world won't come to an end.

Even if John McCain decides to bomb, bomb, bomb Iran on a whim?

Exactly. Anyone with children -- sons, grandons, nephews -- who are now pre-teens or early teens should be concerned. To staff an already stretched military force we may likely see a draft...one needed to fulfill the blood-lust of the neocon strategy intended on invading yet another country in the Middle East.
posted by ericb at 8:47 PM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'd like to throw something out to the esteemed assembly here...do you understand just why it is all of a sudden that so many folks are jumping on the McCain bandwagon? Even though you have a brilliant wellspoken candidate on your end?

Beleive it or not, I do, and it makes me sad. A good freind of mine is barely scratching out a living as a single mom. She has various serious health issues, and has to deal with "welfare deform" every goddamn day. She knows what the last 8 years have done to her, not for her, and knows that Clinton's Eisenhower Republicanism didn't do her any favors, either.

She knows that the Dems could probably do more for her and others in her situation. But, as she told me one time she's "more comfortable with the Republican message." They say the right words, do the right things (or seem to) and that makes her feel better.

She's the one who said that the Palin choice is a stunt pick, and that all it will accomplish is making people feel better about voting for McCain. So I'd be willing to bet that the "excitement" you're seeing is probably relief. I'm not seeing any excitement here. Just more "meh".

Look, no matter who grabs the brass ring in November, the world won't come to an end. I have lived too long and seen too many elections and survived too many Presidents of varying calibers...we will be all right.

Now this kind of thing just makes me mad. We don't "do fine" or end up "all right" because we sit out and do nothing. Progress happens (and disasters don't) because people go out and do the hard work of fighting for what's right - fighting for others' human rights. Fighting for the poor, the hungry, the sick and the imprisoned. Fighting against what's wrong - war, segregation, sexism, homophobia, official abuse. You should be old enough to remember that Nixon refrained from nuking Vietnam because of the college protesters.

Just waving your hand and saying "oh, it'll all work out in the end" is like sticking your head in the sand to me. That may not be what you're doing, but the statement sounds complacent and dismissive.
posted by lysdexic at 8:49 PM on September 9, 2008 [3 favorites]

I think this will be the thread that breaks MetaFilter.

No way. The one that wil break MeFi will have something to do about 'bacon.'
posted by ericb at 8:50 PM on September 9, 2008

No way. The one that wil break MeFi will have something to do about 'bacon.'

Or, be one that highlights typos!
posted by ericb at 8:53 PM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

How To Get Promoted in PalinWorld: Backtrack on your original statement about Palin's lack of qualifications, become 2nd highest ranking official in the National Guard.
posted by jonp72 at 8:54 PM on September 9, 2008 [4 favorites]

Tonight at a HBS admissions event, I overheard a woman talking about how she feels strongly about public policy and caring for special needs children, and that in that way, Sarah Palin is one of her role models (something to that effect; I didn't hear exactly how she said what she said, but I think that was the gist of it).
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:55 PM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

Warned by the Court -- "A judge repeatedly told Palin and family not to badmouth her sister's ex."
posted by ericb at 8:55 PM on September 9, 2008

Calling out the lies in a speech sounds good but that won't do it either. Remember: Obama's soaring rhetoric is empty while Palin's competent script reading is inspiring and proof that she is experienced enough to Shake Up Washington™. Since their lame initial response, the Obama camp has gotten better and I think it would be good to stay this course until the debates. The debates would be the best opportunity to call McCain a liar. But I think the Biden part of the equation becomes more important since the VP debate will probably draw more viewers with the way this thing has been playing out. And that will be tricky.

Still, I'm not worried. Voter identification is in favor of Democrats. Democrats have registered eleven million more voters than Republicans. It's the Democrats' election to lose. And though it may not feel like it at any given moment, this is an advantageous position. As usual, Democrats will rely on voter turnout and I don't think that's going to be a problem this election.

The McCain camp appears to have enthusiastically embraced the mantra "negative campaigning drives down voter turnout" and I can't wait to see how far they'll be pushing this a month from now. If they've characterized him as pro-infanticide and for teaching kindergardeners "comprehensive sex education" this early in the campaign, I expect they'll be calling him a Muslim by October.

If you're feeling demoralized, then ~~Rove's~~ McCain's tactics are working. At least the fix is simple: donate, volunteer, and vote. The Palin pick simply reaffirms the basic truth of this election that the Republicans are desperate. McCain is desperate. They're running a manic-depressive campaign. And they have every reason to be. The Democrats have no reason to be worried. They can stick to their game plan. They don't have to make it up as they go.

And on a more superficial level, I think it will be funny when (if?) Palin campaigns on her own and she gets crowds in the thousands while boring old McCain gets a few hundred.
posted by effwerd at 8:58 PM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

*cue pepto-bismol picture*

I can't beleive I read the whole thing.
posted by lysdexic at 8:58 PM on September 9, 2008

On Fox News, Media Research Center's Tim Graham criticizes MSNBC for "adding this lesbian Air America radio host, Rachel Maddow" to its lineup.
posted by ericb at 11:40 PM on September 9 [+] [!]

Steve "Madrassa...This is huge!" Doocy is complaining about media bias? Is he so low in irony that he's anemic?

Fox News's cognitive dissonance is so strong now it's just reverberating back on itself like some kind of Steve Reich tape-piece. (aka "It's gonna rain-It's gonna rai-It's gonna ra-")
posted by jb at 9:06 PM on September 9, 2008

From TPM Reader NH ...
What alien invaded Mark Halperin's body? On AC360, he trashed McCain/Palin for being phony and dishonest. Then he went after the press for talking about lipstick on the pig, for not calling Palin out on the Bridge to Nowhere, and for letting her get away with such tight press restrictions.
Hardball also went hard on the bridge to nowhere.
And TPM Reader BS too ...
Shocked, absolutely shocked.
Watching AC360 on CNN, the last segment ~10 minutes in, Mark Halperin actually made intelligent points regarding the coverage of Palin. In essence, the other 3 candidates have been on the scene for months if not years. Sarah Palin is new to the scene and instead of wasting time on silly stories (putting lipstick on a pig), the real record of Palin has to be discussed.

Please understand that for every one of you who is liberal, or prochoice, or thinks that government is the solution to many social problems or--konolia

While not many people self-identify as liberal, do keep in mind that most Americans are pro choice. So it's more like for every 5 pro-choicers, there are 4.3 or so pro-lifers. At least when it comes to women.

Dawson: in what world is Chris Hitchens a 'far left liberal'? I'm amazed the man can still breathe after chocking down so much neocon cock. And Mickey Kaus is a straight up conservative, not even remotely left-wing in any sense, and Camille Paglia is an idiot.
posted by delmoi at 9:07 PM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

A Palin Pastor Primer
posted by jonp72 at 9:12 PM on September 9, 2008

fff, I was referring to your prior statement, not the one that numbered 4409.

I think dawson and maybe someone else (I've lost track of who now) must be using some sort of script that adds number to comments, because that's not default metafilter functionality and for the vast majority of readers those numbers mean nothing as references. Not a great big deal -- people can probably figure out from context what you're referring to -- but it would be more helpful to either quote or link directly to a comment (quoting probably preferable in such a big thread that's slow to load) and leave the numbers aside.
posted by cortex at 9:16 PM on September 9, 2008

EricB...

She must be doing something right then, huh?
posted by schyler523 at 9:18 PM on September 9, 2008

actually other than my OCD and minor bi-polar I actually AM alright now.

That's swell. I'm happy for you.

Do you think you can find it in your heart to feel something for the other 299 million Americans who are doing worse after the Bush reign?

also, how do you know which post is 4409? I don't see any counts like that on my view of this page. (preview: I see cortex wonders the same)
posted by five fresh fish at 9:34 PM on September 9, 2008

I think dawson and maybe someone else (I've lost track of who now) must be using some sort of script that adds number to comments

correct, it's matthewr's greasemonkey MeFi comment numbering script for FF. An excellent addition. I forgot it wasn't default. Sorry for the confusion.
posted by dawson at 9:36 PM on September 9, 2008

Also, dawson, you completely avoided answering the question.

Name a single indication that things are "all right" in the USA. You might be doing okay, but your country is dying.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:40 PM on September 9, 2008

Fafblog weighs in on Sarah Palin. Excerpt:

So maybe Sarah Palin doesn't have all that much "experience." Maybe she doesn't pay much attention to your fancy-pants "foreign policy" or "domestic policy" or "policy." Maybe she's "crazy" and "corrupt" and was picked by a "vetting process" that consisted of "tossing darts at a phone book in the middle of an all-night Ambien-and-Ketamine binge." But maybe that's just because Sarah Palin's just too busy being a real American to hang around with your namby-pamby liberal candidates with their arugula lattes and their east coast Ivy League universities and their "qualifications" while they tax the Jesus Fetus to pay for gay Muslim healthcare! Well Sarah Palin understands that being vice-president takes more than just book-smarts or regular-smarts or knowing what a vice president does! It takes gumption and spunk and other made-up words that hearken back to another time - a realer time - a whiter time - back when men were men and women were men and great big hairy-chested frontiersmen of the plains wrestled oxen and caribou and the savage Injun Man in their mighty conquest of the West before succumbing to explosive amoebic dysentery! And with the help of God and millions of dollars in energy industry donations, Sarah Palin will give us that dysentery again!

There's more where that came from, oh yes, there's more.
posted by Kattullus at 9:44 PM on September 9, 2008 [4 favorites]

No biggies on the confusion; I'm just glad I know what's up now. I'll rant about why comment numbers are A Bad Thing some other time—it doesn't have anything to do with this thread and is kind of an abstract argument to get into. But yeah, please do ditch the numeric references ideally.
posted by cortex at 9:45 PM on September 9, 2008

I'd like to throw something out to the esteemed assembly here...do you understand just why it is all of a sudden that so many folks are jumping on the McCain bandwagon?

what i don't understand is why people are so fixated on who is popular as opposed to who will be able to govern

the next congress will be democratic - PERIOD - they will not be cooperating with a republican president - how, in that situation, will either mccain or palin be able to govern?

the real choice is between 4 years of possible concerted change or more partisan deadlock at a time where our country is heading into various crisis

the real choice is between the possibility of real leadership, i hope, or the certainty of more political and administrative bankruptcy

a vote for mccain is not a vote for the policies you support, it is a vote for a nonfunctioning government - which i realize many republicans philosophically support - until, of course, they discover that it's not working for them

obama's call for change is in a sense misleading - for in fact, we are going to have change whether we want it or not - the choice is will we have a government that is united or divided when that change comes?

the choice is ours - history will remember it - and i daresay those who vote for continued division may reap much more division than they have bargained for

our nation will not stand for much more of this - we need a functioning government and the republicans have not given us one in 8 years

we do not have 4 more years to spend like this
posted by pyramid termite at 9:54 PM on September 9, 2008 [2 favorites]

the next congress will be democratic - PERIOD - they will not be cooperating with a republican president

Have you been paying attention to the last two years?
posted by dirigibleman at 9:57 PM on September 9, 2008 [2 favorites]

Don't believe the hype, y'all. McCain knows that he's in serious trouble -- he knows this bounce is temporary, overblown and still doesn't put him within reach of victory. What we're watching are the acts of a desperate man -- repeating the bridge lie until it becomes a punchline, throwing bad sex attacks at Obama that don't have a prayer of convincing anyone who isn't a paint drinker, making weak cries of sexism over "lipstick on a pig" comments. They have no choice but to lie every time they get on stage or they'll be laughed out of the election.

My god, what a pathetic old man.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:58 PM on September 9, 2008 [3 favorites]

Look, no matter who grabs the brass ring in November, the world won't come to an end. I have lived too long and seen too many elections and survived too many Presidents of varying calibers...we will be all right.

Your comment made me cry .... Because, you see, I don't think we will be. Here, in my own life, I don't think we will be. We just can't stand four (or eight) more years of this.

Between the two of us, my husband and I work four jobs just to pay the same bills we worked two jobs to pay five years ago. He had to take a second job when it became clear three years ago that his company wasn't going to able to afford to give him a raise -- and they havent' yet. Our heating oil prebuy amount doubled (per gallon) over last year - and we don't have the cash to cover it. Instead, I put $5500 on a credit card at 9% interest so my toddler son will have a reasonably warm place to sleep this winter. And I have no idea what we'll do next year. Next Saturday I have to go to a memorial service for a friend's son who was killed in Iraq. He was 22 years old. I have another friend whose two year old daughter -- the same age as my son -- has been diagnosed with bone cancer and they're uninsured and so are going to be paying for the bill for her treatment for the rest of their lives. The doctors give her a 50/50 chance to survive five years.

We, here in America, are not all right. We are not a nation of peace and prosperity. We are an increasingly impoverished nation entrenched in an endless war. If McCain is elected, I look forward to eight more years of this ... or worse. Bread lines. Dead sons and daughters, killed defending -- what? You support the war but you can't tell me what we're fighting for or against. People freezing to death in their own homes because they can't afford the oil. More people who have to choose between food and rent and prescription drugs. I don't think this is hyperbole. My mother was a child during the Great Depression. We've seen this kind of America before, within her lifetime.

Leave the abortion issue under the table. I don't even care about it any more. The moral debate about when life begins becomes less pressing when a family doesn't know where their next meal is coming from. What's that old line ... oh yeah -- Its the economy, stupid. This assinine war is -- started because of a lie ... a lie, remember? Iraq has WMDs?? Remember that? This assinine war is sucking the life out of our economy, and lining the pockets of a small number of men and women who in their secret rooms mock the beliefs of people like you and Sarah Palin, while they get richer and richer on the backs those "ordinary, small-town Americans" who voted them into office.

You asked do you understand just why it is all of a sudden that so many folks are jumping on the McCain bandwagon? Even though you have a brilliant wellspoken candidate on your end?

No, I'm sorry -- I don't understand. I don't understand how "good Christians" can be so uncritical of a candidate who lies and lies and lies and lies. More fundamentally, I don't understand how the people who are actually bearing the burden of this economy -- working people who are paying twice as much for groceries and who will be unable to afford to heat their homes this winter -- people who work a couple or three jobs but still can't pay to get regular dental care or who maybe put off that doctor's visit for that nagging cough because they don't have insurance and they need that $75 to put gas in the tank ... I don't understand how those people can decide to vote for a candidate who just hasn't put forth any proposals** about how he's fix going to heathcare, or repair the economy, or how he's going to end this endless, stupid, pointless war. I don't understand the mindset that won't allow reasonable discourse on the issues. I don't understand people who won't vote for Obama because he's black, or because he's a "secret Muslim". I don't understand that kind of bigotry and willful ignorance.

Every night as my husband I and lie in bed -- every single night -- we talk about whether or not we're going to have to sell our house. We talk about how we can find 15-20 more minutes to spend with our son, who hardly ever sees me because of my work schedule. We talk about what we'll do if gas goes up again or what we're going to do about transportation for me when it snows, since we can't afford a second car any longer.

And I wonder how so many people can vote against their own self interest.

In his speech in Nashua -- the now famous "yes we can" speech -- Obama said "We have been told we cannot do this by a chorus of cynics who will only grow louder and more dissonant in the weeks to come. We've been asked to pause for a reality check. We've been warned against offering the people of this nation false hope.

But in the unlikely story that is America, there has never been anything false about hope.

Every hour of every day I see this mess -- what passes for "political debate" in this country -- and I find it harder and harder to hope. To hope that one day I can come home and spend a normal evening with my son. To hope that a day will come when we don't have to worry about money any more -- at least not as much. To hope for peace. To hope for a future for my son that doesn't include fears about the draft or nuclear war.

So don't tell me that it will be all right. Its not all right now. And I can't see anything changing if your candidate gets elected.

**(Here's an example:
On this page of McCain's website it says "John McCain's policies will increase the value of the dollar and thus reduce the price of oil. In recent years, the declining value of the dollar has added to the cost of imported oil. This will change. Americans will have a stronger economy, a stronger dollar and greater purchasing power for oil, gas and food." but nowhere -- nowhere on that page or any other does he outline what those policies might be. He talks about a summer gas holiday and rolling back some taxes on ethanol, and some stuff related to sub-prime mortgages, but that's it. What policies does he propose that will increase the value of the dollar? Just saying that the economy will be stronger won't make it so.
Now compare that with Obama's page on the same topic. In it, he lays out point by point by point 34 specific points on how he's going to try and fix the economy and at the same time try to make things a bit easier for working people. )
posted by anastasiav at 10:14 PM on September 9, 2008 [118 favorites]

Rodger that, cortex.
FFF, I don't think I can give you an anwser that will satisfy you, man. If I try, I'll get lumped in with the 'dolts who can't think for themselves, dammit!' like everybody portrayed in Joe Bageant's lively Deer Hunting With Jesus.
Personally, I make less than 20k a year, I have no insurence. My car is 25 years old and I (before it was cool) drive very little anyway. I can eat, well, on 75 bucks a week, and not badly on 20. I have to buy my meds outta pocket and yet I have many friends who have it 'tougher' than me. And a good number who are well off, and they are people on both, or all 7, sides of the political divide. Yet I travel widely, have a gillion music albums and 5000 books in storage I really don't need. I life a pretty privileged life to be honest.
I like Obama's plans for public education, but I don't vote with my pocketbook, and if I'd chosen a different lifestyle I'd have more things.
I won't argue that my country might be 'dying', and not to be flip, but that's what happens to countries. I personally imange we'll get enough Mexican and Central American immigrants that we'll fracture in this century anyway. And I have no problem with that. It's organic and healthy and I say tear the borders down.
I guess I miss the point of yr question, but I'm doing OK compared to most people in other countries I've visited and lived in. I have plenty to eat and clothes to wear. I have music and books and libations are cheap. I'm not even voting for McCain, I said long before this thread, in fact in '99 that I never would.
I see nothing to hate on about Palin, and in fact I like her. The more shit that's thrown, the more I dig. So many man hours and this is all 'they' have? Sorry. I'm unaffiliated with any political party, so I can like Jim Webb and Fred Thompson. People have different ideologies and world views, I don't think that makes them necessary bad or despicable. I break bread with all of them if invited.
enough, I'm boring meself even. This would probably be better as an email if I'm to carry on. I guess I don't know how to reply to yr question. Also, I'm tried.
posted by dawson at 10:17 PM on September 9, 2008

konolia just keeps regurgitating what they're feeding her. But then, so do a tragically large number of Americans.

I'd like to throw something out to the esteemed assembly here...do you understand just why it is all of a sudden that so many folks are jumping on the McCain bandwagon? Even though you have a brilliant wellspoken candidate on your end?

Obama is not my "wellspoken candidate". He does not speak for me and he does not have to, unlike the current figureheads of the Republican oligarchy. I'm supporting him only as our last chance to take power out of the hands of an entrenched bureaucracy that has already done so much to destroy America's potential to be a great nation and not another evil empire. He remains a long shot just because the Republicans are such ruthless political warriors, and America is probably still just not ready for a President with dark skin and a funny name.

Please understand that for every one of you who is liberal, or prochoice, or thinks that government is the solution to many social problems or (name your pet Democratic doctrine), there is someone out there who sees the world differently from you, rejects out of hand what you take as a given, believes that your path is wrong and misguided (as you do theirs...) I think that that segment of our society has found its voice, and is standing up for what they hold dear-just as you do.

Your description of us 'liberals' and 'Democrats' is so inaccurate, but then it has to be in order to keep your world view from collapsing under the weight of its lies. The Republican party in its current form is totally committed to MORE governmental power as the solution to a wide variety of "problems" that may not effect yourself at all. The GOP supports the government as the solution to drug abuse by declaring war against it. You support the government providing direct financial support to By not being "prochoice", you yourself have committed yourself to the position that the prohibition of abortion (and most other forms of effective birth control) and the ensuing Forced Childbirth will be the single answer to a vast array of our current social problems, and government is the only entity that can make it work. Tragically, so many of the government's 'moral mandates' that the Republican Party enforces and you support are far more effective at supporting and benefiting certain business groups than the causes you profess, but you are too unwilling to look behind the curtain and see how the Real World works.

At the start of this thread man of you were certain Palin would not last the weekend as the VP nominee. I'm sure that by now that you realize how wrong you were on that point.

I'm not one of those people. I firmly believe that Mrs. Palin is a deeply corrupt politician, but our system has no way of preventing such scum from rising to the top, especially if they are Republicans.

All I really set out to do, as I participated on this thread, was to try to let you know that that other America existed, was alive and well, and was in the process of letting that be known. I'm kinda thinking that for some of you that was a real shock.

Less a shock than a sad disappointment that after it appeared that 70% or more had come to the realization that the Bush Administration was taking the country in the wrong direction, that at least 20% of that group is perfectly willing to let it keep going in the same direction.

Look, no matter who grabs the brass ring in November, the world won't come to an end. I have lived too long and seen too many elections and survived too many Presidents of varying calibers...we will be all right.

I've seen as much in my years as you have, and experienced a lot of things you haven't, including a sobering inside view of the deeply corrupt business practices that led to the S&L bubble, the Dot Com bubble and the current Housing Bubble, each one larger than the last and supported by politicians of both parties.

As if that were not bad enough, the Republican Party under the Bush/Cheney Administration has taken major steps to dismantle our form of government in favor of an Executive Dictatorship, and are in no position to accept an orderly transfer of power should Senator Obama win the election. But the Republican efforts to invalidate voters is working as quickly as the Democratic efforts to register them, the "voting problems" from past elections are mostly unsolved and it will take an actual landslide of support for Obama to eke out a narrow victory in votes counted.

"We" the Pepole of the United States will not be all right, because we are not all right now. The world will not come to an end, but what we used to call "The Promise of America" is on life-support and the Administration has sent for Dr. Kavorkian. The 21st Century will look more and more like the 19th Century thanks to you in that "other America". And it's probably way too late to stop it.

I, personally, am doing okay; I've had my own economic collapse already and am living comfortably on very little (in California!) But I'm a white male from a Republican family who used to work for some nicely corrupt important people (which is the only way I can explain how I made it through the Social Security Disability bureaucracy as quickly as I did). And I will be okay until the Department of Homeland Security starts reviewing MetaFilter comments for loyalty and connects Wendell to the identity on my checks. And I do care about all the other Americans, except for those who are working to destroy it.

I have been pondering over this long ponderous comment for over two hours, during which many other honest MeFites have spoken up better than I can. I have to stop letting konolia's smug, condescending, patronizing tone get to me. (I should have replied more forcefully to the private mefimails where she declared a concern for my health - what bullshit). And now dawson (also from North Carolina, possibly the same Party office) chimes in. I do have better things to do, things that will do more to stop these evil people than writing comments here (and hopefully make up for all I did in the past to aid their kind).
posted by wendell at 10:18 PM on September 9, 2008 [16 favorites]

if my previous comment should be deleted, by all means go for it. Perhaps I was to personal. I was just trying to give an honest question to what I assume was an honest question.
or don't delete it and delete this instead, I'm...ambivalent about it :)
posted by dawson at 10:23 PM on September 9, 2008

Look, no matter who grabs the brass ring in November, the world won't come to an end.

Just your son.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:28 PM on September 9, 2008 [4 favorites]

One thing dawson, I used to break bread with people like Fred Thomson, Sarah Palin and konolia. It may have helped me qualify for Disability (where my income is comparable to yours plus I get Medicare) but it really damaged my spirit. I'm recovering now. I hope you do too, but until then, I can't trust you. NOW I'm getting out of this sad thread.
posted by wendell at 10:31 PM on September 9, 2008

I'm from North Carolina. So is John Edwards. And Jessie Jackson. And John Coltrane. And a bunch of other people, like Billy Graham. This means...?
posted by dawson at 10:31 PM on September 9, 2008

OK wendell. And best wishes .
posted by dawson at 10:36 PM on September 9, 2008

dawson: I read those. Paglia can liken Palin to Madonna -- how? -- for being so *un*conventional. But the only thing Palin has in common w/ Madonna is an acute knack for manipulating the media. Except in Madonna's case, she keeps us guessing who she really is. Palin insists she's something that she's not.
People like Paglia and Hitchens just like to stir the pot. Hyperbolic language and (with Hitchens') attempts to hamstring Obama's decisions with regard to his former pastor, undercutting validity of his faith while passing credit on to Palin as "more sincere" because she utters Christianese soundbites like "right with God"? Her sincerity remains to be seen on her loyalty to her church allegiance; but I wouldn't fault her for switching/dropping churches as hastily as Bristol switches schools or Republicans drop exposed cronies like Hagee/Foley/DeLay et al. -- and neither should she or Hitchens fault Obama for it.

On preview: I don't know which of your threads you mean, nor am I sure whom you were responding to when quoting those three columnists. I can agree with you that there's more than one point of view deserving a voice. I'm just surprised by whose voices you felt deserved serious attention.
posted by skyper at 10:37 PM on September 9, 2008

Note: In my comment above the words On this page in the footnote should link to this page at JohnMcCain.com, titled Immediate Relief for American Families. Its the second bullet point under "Gas and Food Prices".
posted by anastasiav at 10:39 PM on September 9, 2008

the choice is ours - history will remember it

A cool idea from reddit.com: take a photograph of the lawn signs on your neighbours lawns. And when the candidate they supported makes a fubar mess of things, be sure to drop a copy of that photograph into their mail box every month. Just to remind them that their stupidity is what brought the country to its knees.

dawson, believe it or not, I can appreciate that: I, too, actively endeavour to not be attached to "things" and prefer to be unencumbered. I don't fool myself for a moment that a sub-$20k annual income is "doing okay" in America, though.

Further, while the ebb and flow of global power is a fact of life, it doesn't mean that one should simply acquiesce to the demise of one's nation.

cortex, it looks like live preview renders >hr>, while MeFi strips it. Couldja please poke the live preview author about that? Thx.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:40 PM on September 9, 2008

I'm on the same page pretty much there sykper.
also, FFF and others, I didn't mean to come off as having a Christ complex and being all Theroeau and St. Francis. I guess I was just describing my own approach to living, which I do not recommend for most.
posted by dawson at 10:49 PM on September 9, 2008

Theroeau, Theeieau, Therieau, Therieau, Therieaua, Therieaue, Therieaui, Therieauo, Therieau, Thoreau, even. Damn this unwieldy thread.
posted by dawson at 10:53 PM on September 9, 2008

From "Bitch-Slap" To "Gaslight" -- Grokking The GOP Game
posted by Balonious Assault at 10:53 PM on September 9, 2008 [1 favorite]

McCain's people are already attacking this as Obama calling Palin a pig.

Totally unfair. He called her an "old fish wrapped in paper", but apparently it went over their heads.

What Obama really needs to do is speak simply, and slowly, without ums, and reassert his leadership. "People want real change. I've been calling for setting a troop withdrawal date, and shifting our troops from Iraq to Afghanistan where we really need them. And now the Bush administration has done exactly that. I've been talking about change for 4 years, and now that's all McCain talks about. Of course McCain is doing better in the polls. Because he's following my leadership."
posted by msalt at 11:36 PM on September 9, 2008

I won't argue that my country might be 'dying', and not to be flip, but that's what happens to countries. I personally imange we'll get enough Mexican and Central American immigrants that we'll fracture in this century anyway. And I have no problem with that. -- dawson

If you don't give a damn about this country, then why should we give a damn what you think? If you think this election is some reality show with no meaningful consequences where you can just vote based on whose personality you like, then fuck off. Go away and let adults talk.
posted by delmoi at 12:13 AM on September 10, 2008 [10 favorites]

Dawson, when I asked you why you like Palin and dislike Biden I was hoping to get an earnest response in the same spirit of the responses you got when you asked your question. Since I modeled my question after yours, the tone of your answer/reading assignment took me by surprise because it was so different from the previous exchanges.
posted by Daddy-O at 12:23 AM on September 10, 2008

Has anyone seen HaloMan lately?

A few days late, but I haven't been culled as part of a conspiracy if that's what you're wondering. I tend to find internet discussions on US politics tend to degenerate quickly and become unconstructive, tedious and repetitive overly-biased flame-fests so I haven't been following the thread.

I do hope the FPP was relatively neutral on this obviously contentious issue, if not particularly well written (I kind of rushed it).
posted by HaloMan at 12:27 AM on September 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Daddy-O, I was responding to another poster, I guess I missed yr question, which is a good one. I'll answer and mail you later this evening. I've had a few gin and tonics and don't want to attempt it now.
Wow, HaloMan, that is impressive for real, nearly 4500 hundred comments between yr two.
delmoi, I think you misunderstood me and if you think I meant why you say you think I meant, I understand yr anger. However, my statement was not meant to be anti-American or lutz.
we have many people here from other countries, surely my opinion is as valid as theirs. Anyway, I don't like the tone of some of the 'adults'. Don't trust anyone over 30!
posted by dawson at 12:41 AM on September 10, 2008

msalt: "What Obama really needs to do is speak simply, and slowly, without ums..."

Quoted for truth! I've seen him deliver some poetic and articulate speeches, and he does seem like someone who can explain his thoughts well and precisely, but the man is one for the ums when he's speaking off the cuff. I think it might be similar to the way I sound in conversations a lot of the time. I take longer to choose my words than most, so I get interrupted during brisk conversations. It sounds like he's using the ums to fill in those same pauses so he doesn't sound too boring when he's in an interview or something, but it comes off as hesitant and halting, which feels incongruous.
posted by lostburner at 12:51 AM on September 10, 2008

and in honor of the 'lipstick kerfuffle', a golden oldie...Barack flips Hilliary off, or was it an itc ...huh?
posted by dawson at 1:05 AM on September 10, 2008

You just happened to pick three figures who are among the most repulsive members of the political commentariat (and none of whom are "far-left," especially not Camille Paglia). A drunken, reflexively contrarian turd and a pseudo-intellectual who milks her brand of "libertarian" macho right-wing feminism for all its worth. Their support for any given viewpoint generally discredits it more than anything else.

Except that Paglia has captured the essence of why so many people are excited about Palin. You can say "nonsense" but denying reality won't help the dems win this election. I agree with Dawson that if this election becomes about Palin (unless something really juicy comes out of troopergate etc.), Obama loses.
posted by caddis at 3:54 AM on September 10, 2008

Despite my last comment I do find this National Enquirer article rather entertaining. (thanks twoleftfeet)
posted by caddis at 4:36 AM on September 10, 2008

Christopher Hitchens and Camille Paglia are not far left. They are more moderate right with a severe need for attention.
posted by QIbHom at 5:16 AM on September 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

The ENQUIRER has learned exclusively that Sarah's oldest son, Track, was addicted to the power drug OxyContin for nearly the past two years, snorting it, eating it, smoking it and even injecting it. And as Track, 19, heads to Iraq as part of the U.S. armed forces, Sarah and her husband Todd were powerless to stop his wild antics

Track Palin-Rush Limbaugh 2026!
posted by lukemeister at 5:29 AM on September 10, 2008

Interesting how the lying attack ad on Obama re: hypothetically hurting America's children was released *just* before this little fact-based bombshell re: a judge's concern about Palin actually hurting real children came out. I'm sure that wasn't some kind of planned distraction or anything...
posted by mothershock at 5:53 AM on September 10, 2008

Have you been paying attention to the last two years?

the government's been effectively paralyzed and little has been done
posted by pyramid termite at 6:21 AM on September 10, 2008

McCain's seeming indifference to the topic of abortion may actually make him more effective in delivering the final blow to Roe v. Wade, because he'll bringing along a lot of deluded pro-choice fans of his "maverick" persona along with him.

I agree, that's what they're hoping. McCain brings the dim pro-choicers, Palin the rabid slut-haters.
posted by Mental Wimp at 6:41 AM on September 10, 2008

I'm unaffiliated with any political party, so I can like Jim Webb and Fred Thompson.

Since there's very little that the two men agree on politically, I'm assuming that these two men appeal to you on the basis of similar appeals to Southern cultural "character," such as Fred Thompson's campaign stops in a red pickup truck. If that's the case, you need to know that Thompson's red pickup truck was a phony campaign prop:

But in fact, the red pickup is even phonier than Scheiber and Somerby make it sound. Not only was the truck rented, but Thompson didn't even deign to drive the thing himself. Here is Michelle Cottle describing a Thompson campaign event a couple of years later when he was running for reelection:

Seated in the audience is a childhood friend of mine....My friend stands talking with her colleagues as the senator is driven away by a blond, all-American staffer. A few minutes later, my friend gets into her car to head home. As she pulls up to the stop sign at the parking lot exit, rolling up to the intersection is Senator Thompson, now behind the wheel of a sweet silver luxury sedan. He gives my friend a slight nod as he drives past. Turning onto the main road, my friend passes the school's small, side parking area. Lo and behold: There sits the abandoned red pickup, along with the all-American staffer.

Basically, he just drove the thing the final few hundred feet before each campaign event, and then ditched it for something nicer as soon as he was out of sight of the yokels. Quite a man of the people, no?
posted by jonp72 at 6:45 AM on September 10, 2008

and in honor of the 'lipstick kerfuffle', a golden oldie...Barack flips Hilliary off, or was it an itc ...huh?

For the love of God, just stop it. As Barack Obama said in his acceptance speech, "If you don't have a record to run on, then you paint your opponent as someone people should run from. You make a big election about small things." Don't make this big election about small things.
posted by jonp72 at 6:56 AM on September 10, 2008 [4 favorites]

Her sincerity remains to be seen on her loyalty to her church allegiance; but I wouldn't fault her for switching/dropping churches as hastily as Bristol switches schools or Republicans drop exposed cronies like Hagee/Foley/DeLay et al.

Actually, Palin has switched churches. She attended the Wasilla Assembly of God Church for 20 years or more, but then switched to attending the Wasilla Bible Church. While in Juneau, she attends the Juneau Christian Center. That being said, there is such a strong tradition of non-denominationalism or post-denominationalism (e.g., "I don't belong to a church. I just follow Christ.") in conservative Protestant circles that this church-switching isn't necessarily proof of insincerity.
posted by jonp72 at 7:11 AM on September 10, 2008

I'm half expecting the McCain dirt squad to start a rumor that Obama has fathered some black children.
posted by Daddy-O at 7:16 AM on September 10, 2008 [5 favorites]

From Josh Marshal

One of the interesting aspects of this campaign is watching the scales fall from the eyes of many of John McCain's closest admirers among the veteran DC press corps. I'm not talking about the freaks on Fox News or any of the sycophants at the AP. I'm talking about, let's say, the better sort of reporters and commentators in the 45 to 65 age bracket. To the extent that the press was McCain's base (and in many though now sillier respects it still is) this was the base of the base. And talking to a number of them I can understand why that was, at least in the sense of the person he was then presenting himself as.
...
I want to return to a point I made a few years ago during the Social Security battle with President Bush. Winning and losing is never fully in one's control -- not in politics or in life. What is always within our control is how we fight and bear up under pressure. It's easy to get twisted up in your head about strategy and message and optics. But what is already apparent is that John McCain is running the sleaziest, most dishonest and race-baiting campaign of our lifetimes. So let's stopped being shocked and awed by every new example of it. It is undignified. What can we do? We've got a dangerously reckless contender for the presidency and a vice presidential candidate who distinguished her self by abuse of office even on the comparatively small political stage of Alaska. They've both embraced a level of dishonesty that disqualifies them for high office. Democrats owe it to the country to make clear who these people are. No apologies or excuses. If Democrats can say at the end of this campaign that they made clear exactly how and why these two are unfit for high office they can be satisfied they served their country.

posted by delmoi at 7:19 AM on September 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

Why McCain's 'Lipstick on a Pig' Sexism Claims Hold No Water

"McCain has used the phrase before as well, in reference to Hillary Clinton and her health plan:
'McCain criticized Democratic contenders for offering what he called costly universal health care proposals that require too much government regulation. While he said he had not studied Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton's health-care plan, he said it was "eerily reminiscent" of the failed plan she offered as first lady in the early 1990s. "I think they put some lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig," he said of her proposal.'
The Obama camp has responded:
'Enough is enough. The McCain campaign’s attack tonight is a pathetic attempt to play the gender card about the use of a common analogy – the same analogy that Senator McCain himself used about Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton’s health care plan just last year. This phony lecture on gender sensitivity is the height of cynicism and lays bare the increasingly dishonorable campaign John McCain has chosen to run.'"

posted by ericb at 7:30 AM on September 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

What I find most interesting about this particular lie is that Sarah Palin is, famously, an evangelical Christian. Evangelical Christians aren't supposed to tell lies. . . .

We're the "values voters," don't you know, putting individual morality front and center at every opportunity. So it's a bit odd to be introduced to a new national figure and to learn, simultaneously, that she is both proudly evangelical and, just as proudly, a habitual liar. . . .

These voters don't care that Palin supported the Bridge to Nowhere. And they don't care if she's lying now when she says she didn't. This election, for them, isn't about earmarks, or fiscal responsibility, or political reform, or Iraq, terror, taxes, torture, corruption, education, gas prices, health care or the environment. It's about abortion. And winning that fight is, to them, worth swallowing a thousand lies.

Gov. Palin and the Fib from Outer Space
posted by EarBucket at 7:34 AM on September 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

any of the sycophants at the AP.

? Why does he say this?

I've been noting that the AP coverage has recently been very critical of the McCain campaign - pointing out how Palin lied in her first speeches, for instance. I realise that in any other country this would just be standard, but actually drawing attention to the lied politicians tell is a new phenomenon in the US. I don't know what their slant has been on Obama, but I certainly wouldn't call them sycophantic to McCain.
posted by jb at 7:36 AM on September 10, 2008

tkchrist's comment up thread is spot on. There are just too many stupid Americans now. The republicans know that people are fucking morons, concerned about shit that doesn't actually mater. How are the economy, the war, etc, not being discussed as much as whatever stupid shit Palin got up to last week, last month, last year? I think the Republicans picked someone so useless on purpose: it's clear the conversation has shifted from how the republican party are all crooked fuck-ups, to some Jerry Springer American Politics. And people love this shit. tkchrist's comment up thread is spot on.

konolia is right as well. The internet isn't America. For every Obama loving dude typing away on his blog, there are probably two ladies who want the government to tell them what they can do with their vaginas, out of work guys that want the government to stop the gays from getting married, etc. There is another America, and it's full of dumbaclots.
posted by chunking express at 7:36 AM on September 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

? Why does he say this?

The AP has a Ron Fournier problem.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 7:47 AM on September 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

It's exposing that mud to the harsh light of scrutiny in hopes of drying it into a crumbling mess that leaves a permanent black mark on McCain's public image as an honorable man.

That's very lofty, but you're living in a reality based world. These people are not. THEY DON'T CARE IF MCCAIN OR PALIN ARE LYING OR THEY DON'T BELIEVE YOU OR THE LIBERAL MEDIA. They really don't, as it goes against the larger story of those two being reformers and what not.

So getting down into the mud and screeching "No, no I didn't say that and your guy is liar!" won't fly and makes Obama look weak and draws his campaign into swatting down every little thing McCain/Palin say, which only enforces the idea that "the liberal media is always attacking us poor defenseless god believers!" Fighting on your enemy's territory usually doesn't work.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:48 AM on September 10, 2008

And yes, Obama needs to be all, "are you fucking shitting me?" and move on. If you make the election about stupid shit like this he's going to lose because the people that respond to that shit aren't going to suddenly vote for Obama. The Republicans are trying to tell the Konoila's of America, "don't worry, we're whatever you need us to be." The Republicans are trying to get their base out voting, people who may have stayed home prior to this turn in the election. Obama needs to do the same. The problem is that many of the groups interested in him are the same groups that historically don't vote because their too fucking stupid, lazy, or apathetic -- God damn you young people.
posted by chunking express at 7:57 AM on September 10, 2008

ABC news story on the library.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 7:58 AM on September 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

McCain video: ""I think they put some lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig."
posted by ericb at 8:02 AM on September 10, 2008

Washington Post: As Campaign Heats Up, Untruths Can Become Facts Before They're Undone.
posted by ericb at 8:05 AM on September 10, 2008

These untruths... aren't they the same as lies? Christ...
posted by Pantengliopoli at 8:19 AM on September 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

Not not unexactly.
posted by Rhaomi at 8:21 AM on September 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

These untruths... aren't they the same as lies? Christ...

How do the press even take themselves seriously anymore?
posted by chunking express at 8:45 AM on September 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

some of us warned, earlier in this thread to not be petty. now folks are (rightly) upset about a few 'dirty' bits re Obama, but you'd have to be on drugs to deny that dirty, filthy mud-slinging is what most of this thread has been about. Not Obama, he rebuked it in certain terms and plead for it to stop. but no, people had to just keep digging and being all, well...
a "...hallucinatory hurricane in the leftist blogosphere, which unleashed a grotesquely lurid series of allegations, fantasies, half-truths and outright lies about Palin. What a tacky low in American politics -- which has already caused a backlash that could damage Obama's campaign. When liberals come off as childish, raving loonies, the right wing gains. I am still waiting for substantive evidence that Sarah Palin is a dangerous extremist. I am perfectly willing to be convinced, but right now, she seems to be merely an optimistic pragmatist like Ronald Reagan, someone who pays lip service to religious piety without being in the least wedded to it. I don't see her arrival as portending the end of civil liberties or life as we know it"

The trap was obvious and many just strolled in all cocky, whistling show tunes and spreading slimy innuendo.
posted by dawson at 8:54 AM on September 10, 2008

Dawson: "...hallucinatory hurricane in the leftist blogosphere, which unleashed a grotesquely lurid series of allegations, fantasies, half-truths and outright lies about Palin. What a tacky low ..."

Citation?
posted by Daddy-O at 9:04 AM on September 10, 2008

Dawson is talking about leftists like Hitchens and Paglia.
posted by QIbHom at 9:10 AM on September 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

Citation?
not using preview sucks for me. And 5 minute load times.
Yes, it's Paglia, as I noted before. Salon, the publishing arm of the John Birch Society run by Karl Rove.
posted by dawson at 9:19 AM on September 10, 2008

Paglia, apparently unaware of "Obama is a secret Muslim" or the Michelle "Whitey" tape or "the Clintons killed Vince Foster" or "Hillary is a lesbian" or any one of a thousand other lows in American politics. When liberals come off as childish, raving loonies, the right wing gains. When wingnuts come off as childish, raving loonies, the right wing gains. Good news for McCain!
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 9:19 AM on September 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

The Washington Post article linked above is amazing. Pretty much a journalistic admission that lying holds no consequences. Jesus. Just remember, that sex ed ad is not the sleaziest one we're going to see.

My new theory is that the Republican strategy at this point is to be so outrageous that all the liberals' heads explode, leaving them unable to vote.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:34 AM on September 10, 2008

My new theory is that the Republican strategy at this point is to be so outrageous that all the liberals' heads explode, leaving them unable to vote.

Mine as well -- the cranial pressure I'm feeling each day makes me think it's working for them. It's a disgusting strategy, especially after hoping (naively) that we were finally moving toward a more polite, issues-based campaign, no matter who won. Fuck that, eh? I'm sick of this shit.
posted by Pantengliopoli at 9:42 AM on September 10, 2008

Sarah Palin action figure.
posted by Daddy-O at 10:03 AM on September 10, 2008

Look, no matter who grabs the brass ring in November, the world won't come to an end. I have lived too long and seen too many elections and survived too many Presidents of varying calibers...we will be all right.

Look, konolia, nobody said the world would end, just that the slowly deteriorating situation regarding civil liberties, war-making, economic dislocation and inequality of opportunity, educational decline, and nasty self-righteousness will accelerate and that this trend has an obvious destination. If you look at the dysfunctionality of the Palin household and the fact that she is being held up as a beacon of light shining from the those who would control the morality of the country, it is not a hopeful picture. This is what we are concerned about. What dismays us most is that folks on your side of the debate don't seem to notice this, but instead are enticed by false promises by these corrupt usurpers of our America that they will overturn Roe v. Wade and turn the US into some sort of theocratic strong-father government system. Meanwhile, they loot the US treasury, spy on civilians, repress dissent, and start stupid wars that maim and kill our heroes, leaving us poorer and no safer for the loss.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:21 AM on September 10, 2008 [6 favorites]

Dearest neighbor:

We have been watching this situation unfold for more than eight years now and, needless to say, we are very worried. You see, we have come to accept you as the loud, impulsive, sometimes reclusive and paranoid, rich tenant in our condominium. It was difficult at first, but then we grew gradually accustomed to this difficult door to door relationship: while you always want to have things done your way, we wanted you to leave us alone but still asked for many favors; many times you came to live with us, both in good and bad times, but often you left just as you came, suddenly and without warning (and often leaving a mess behind).

Now that we are mostly living each in our own apartments, we can feel you are getting worst every day, even though the wall you are putting up prevents us from seeing you as often as we were used to. Just the other day Nicaragua told us he saw you taking out the trash and said you looked terrible. This state of affairs worries us deeply, not just because of our own welfare (a good part of which depends on yours) but because, deep down inside, we really like you. We like the movies and books you send our way, we like the way you talk, the things you build and the progress you make, we sincerely appreciate the loans and support you have given us in times of need, and we even like the way you cook (even though we hate what you do with our recipes).

Now, we don’t expect you to change your ways just because we said so, but we must warn you that the path you are taking leads to no good. The solution is quite simple, really: stop injecting those drugs (war, isolation, bad healthcare, bad financial planning) which are only making you paranoid, and take the change you are being offered. The withdrawal period will be difficult, yes, but it will be worth it. To put it simply: if you choose now to continue your addictions, the McPain you will endure in the long run will pale in comparison to your afflictions today.

Well, yes, you might say, I’d like to change, but how? Well, volunteer first. Donate time. Donating money always helps, but your hundred bucks won’t convince others as easily to go out and vote. If you really want to change then go outside and talk to people about it, write about it in your blogs, write to your newspapers and TV stations; if you are famous, or not, go public with your determination to change. Debate with others, build supporting associations, as varied as they may be (how about the “American Motorcyclists of Syracuse who Eat Peanuts and Sleep Late Association for Change”?).

Listen: if you really want to change and don’t go out and talk to others, and maybe even with some luck convince others about the change, then it will be your fault when said change doesn’t come. It’s not someone else’s job, it’s your responsibility. And no, just writing about it here isn’t enough. We would gladly help you, but this is something you must do on your own.

Please, United States of America, don’t screw this up. We know you can do it.

Best,

Your Latin American neighbors in the other floors (and Canada, from the PH).
posted by omegar at 10:40 AM on September 10, 2008 [9 favorites]

hallucinatory hurricane in the leftist blogosphere, which unleashed a grotesquely lurid series of allegations, fantasies, half-truths and outright lies about Palin. What a tacky low in American politics -- which has already caused a backlash that could damage Obama's campaign. When liberals come off as childish, raving loonies

This is absurd of course, lunacy knows no party, and The crazy right wingers have been screeching for months about how Obama was secretly born in kenya and his birth certificate is a forgery. Nevermind that being born in Kenya wouldn't disqualify him from being president -- just look at McCain, who was born in Panama. They've been saying he's a secret Muslim, they've been, they've been saying he's a radical associated with Underground Weatherman Bill Ayers, etc, etc, etc. Now, Palin comes out of nowhere and of course crazy rumors start up, but painting all "liberals" by a few nutbars at DailyKos and ignoring all the lunatics on the right is utterly disingenuous. I defended Palin up thread against rumors that there had been some Trigg switcheroo. Of course, I wouldn't waste my breath defending her at this point, but the fact is that stuff was just absurd.

You like her, that's fine But don't pretend like your support is some noble cause when you ignore everything wrong with the republicans. Bleh.
posted by delmoi at 10:40 AM on September 10, 2008 [4 favorites]

I think you could almost run a goat and a horse for republican nominees for pres & vp and as long as they hoofed out their anti-abortion position, why a significant number of republicans would vote for them.

That reminds me of the Colbert Report interview with Lyn Westmoreland, a Republican Representative from a safe district who wanted to put the 10 commandments in government buildings everywhere. When challenged by Colbert to identify them, the guy said, kill, steal, lie, uh, uh, and couldn't remember any more. The guy was dumb as a post, in general, not just unable to recall wrongly just three of the commandments he so disingenuously promoted. I realized exactly then that the Repubs have whole districts so bamboozled they could run a monkey and the monkey would win in a landslide. Their voters are voting as Pavlovian responses, not as choices.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:46 AM on September 10, 2008 [5 favorites]

I think I'd feel a bit more confident on the impact of the exposure of Palin's record if more of it was being aired out on the easy-to-digest McNews rather than on blogs. On the other hand ...

I think it would be wise to follow Obama's lead and ignore this ridiculous person. Really, how has the math changed here? McCain is still touting failed policies. He's still trying to bring more of the last 8 years. That's what needs to be hammered on. Helen Lovejoy has gone into hiding, and while she gets folks like konolia "excited" (read: bloodthirsty), I haven't seen any indication that she has significantly attracted independents, fence-sitters or former Clinon supporters. If and when she emerges for a carefully choreographed one-on-one softball intereview that will be her "See? She's talking to the media! Back off, you vultures!" routine, the response should be: McCain is Bush. When she launches some mean-spirited barb at Obama, the response should be: McCain is Bush. Not only will this probably infuriate her, and push her into a major stumble, but it keeps the one major message that has helped Obama get this far stay on the foreground: McCain is Bush.

I don't think most Democrats are engaging in mudslinging, not even in this thread, and I think it would be dismissive and a little hypocritical to say the contrary. Most of what I've been seeing has been about Palin's record. My point is: Stay on target.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:49 AM on September 10, 2008

it's Paglia, as I noted before. Salon, the publishing arm of the John Birch Society run by Karl Rove.

Dawson, I hope you are aware that Paglia was quite pro-Obama during the primaries. The reason she praises Sarah Palin's persona is the same reason she praised Obama during the primaries: she has a major ax to grind against Hillary Clinton. Palin is like catnip to Paglia, because Palin is the anti-Hillary. Paglia may have some valid points about how its counterproductive to focus on Palin too much, but the niche of the electorate who matches her idiosyncratic pro-Obama, pro-Palin views could probably fit in a phone booth.
posted by jonp72 at 10:58 AM on September 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Interesting article on the reporting of politician's lies from the Columbia Journalism Review. From 2003, but still perfectly relevant today.
posted by goo at 11:07 AM on September 10, 2008

Newsweek: The Politics of Stupidity

‘‘Years from now presidential historians will look back on Sept. 9 as the day the 2008 campaign got completely and utterly stupid.

…Meanwhile, Team McCain slapped together another ad, ‘Lipstick,’ told reporters that it would ‘air’ on the ‘web’ and watched with delight as Chris Matthews and Co. broadcast it for free (predictably enough) on their evening gabfests.

The point, of course, was get everyone speculating about whether or not Obama had committed a heinous act ‘sexism’ and change the day's debate from education to gender insensitivity. Never mind that ‘you can put lipstick on a pig’ is an old idiomatic expression. Never mind that Obama was talking about McCain--not Palin--when he used it. Never mind that Obama also said that ‘you can wrap an old fish in a piece of paper called 'change,' [but] it's still gonna stink after eight years.’ Never mind that McCain's former press secretary, Torie Clarke, wrote a book called ‘Lipstick on a Pig: Winning in the No-Spin Era.’ Never mind that Elizabeth Edwards once compared McCain's health care plan to ‘painting lipstick on a pig.’ Never mind that Obama has used the phrase before, claiming last September that Gen. David Petraeus ‘has done his best to try to figure out how to put lipstick on a pig’ in Iraq. And never mind that McCain said the same thing of Hillary Clinton's health care plan the following month, characterizing it as ‘eerily’ similar to her failed 1993 proposal. ‘I think they put some lipstick on a pig,’ McCain said, ‘but it’s still a pig.’

Never mind all that. According to McCain, Obama wasn't doing what he, Clarke, Edwards and Obama himself had done before--you know, just using a colorful American metaphor. No. In McCain's view, Obama was actually dumb enough to mount the stage, face the cameras and boldly announce that Sarah Palin is a porker. Or at least that's what McCain--a man whose party has long decried the routine accusations of ‘sexism’ and ‘racism’ associated with identity politics, and whose VP said earlier this year that playing the gender card ‘doesn't do us any good, women in politics’--is hoping that the rest of us are dumb enough to believe. Next thing you know, he'll accuse his opponent of calling Palin a fish.

…Earlier this summer, McCain called for a campaign based on the ‘politics of civility.’ Try the politics of stupidity instead. Yesterday represented presidential campaigning at its condescending worst. And the worst part isn't that McCain was acting stupid. It's that he seems to think we're all stupid, too.”

posted by ericb at 11:33 AM on September 10, 2008 [11 favorites]

Just Like Bush White House, Palin Uses Personal E-mail Accounts And Claims Executive Privilege.
posted by ericb at 11:45 AM on September 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

Obama responds to the Lipstick on a Pig nontroversy
posted by delmoi at 11:46 AM on September 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

Since I'm only responding on a dare from cortex, I would like to apologize for being off-topic. (And also for any further swearing directed toward cortex, which may be copious.)
posted by cgc373 at 11:49 AM on September 10, 2008

Dearest neighbor:
We have been watching this situation unfold for more than eight years now and, needless to say, we are very worried.

Dearest neighbor,

Kindly the shut the fuck up. Just as much as you don't like us meddling in your affairs, neither do we appreciate it in return. A large proportion of us (half? hopefully more than half?) are quite aware of what's going on and we want -- shit, we yearn for change! We're literally trying as hard as we can here, but entrenched power structures and the complicity of the mass media is making our job far harder than you might realize.

For the immediate future, we need to concentrate our efforts on changing things in this country, and your father-knows-best shtick is a distraction we don't need. Cheer us on from the sidelines, sure, but -- and I say this with nothing but respect for all our neighbors! -- fuck off, for just a little bit.

Sincerely,

(a few) Progressive voters
posted by barnacles at 11:52 AM on September 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

I haven't seen any indication that she has significantly attracted independents

You must have missed this link:

In 3 previous SurveyUSA NC tracking polls, McCain had led by 8, 5, and 4 points. Today: 20. McCain has gained ground in every demographic group. Among men, McCain led by 9 last month, 27 today. Among women, Obama led by 2 last month, trails by 12 today. McCain holds 9 of 10 Republican voters; Obama holds 3 of 4 Democratic voters; independents, who were split last month, break today crisply for McCain, where, in the blink of an eye, he is up by 25.
The following was asked of 671 likely voters (more data on collection listed at the bottom):
If the election for President were today, would you vote for ... (choices rotated) Republican John McCain? Or, Democrat Barack Obama?

58% McCain (R)
38% Obama (D)
2% Other
2% Undecided
posted by konolia at 11:53 AM on September 10, 2008

"... and while she gets folks like konolia "excited" (read: bloodthirsty), I haven't seen any indication that she has significantly attracted independents, fence-sitters or former Clinon supporters."

The latest Gallop poll from yesterday showed a significant jump for McCain among independents and Democrats. Corresponding with his post-convention lead over Obama. And much of this boost comes from white women.

So there is indication that Palin is wooing the not-guaranteed voters that she was intended to woo. Not just folks "like konolia".
posted by dgaicun at 11:54 AM on September 10, 2008

You must have missed this part:

In 3 previous SurveyUSA NC tracking polls

And the breakdown of the Gallup polls confirm it: the "Palin bounce" is largely confined to the South.
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 12:00 PM on September 10, 2008

Just as much as you don't like us meddling in your affairs, neither do we appreciate it in return.

South American Meddling: Random comment on the internet.
US Meddling: A few coups, a few wars, a bunch of dictators propped up, a few violent as fuck guerrilla groups supported, etc.

I wonder why South Americans might be concerned about the US elections?
posted by chunking express at 12:03 PM on September 10, 2008 [9 favorites]

Regarding the lipstick/pic flap: I think it is disingenuous for Obama to think that if he used the "lipstick on a pig" expression in a speech it would NOT be seen as a sly reference to Palin's "pitbull with lipstick" joke.

I agree that he was not directly calling her a pig, and I agree that the reference itself was not aimed at her directly. But Obama is an idiot and a fool if he thought people would not make a connection.

And Obama is no idiot nor is he a fool.
posted by konolia at 12:04 PM on September 10, 2008

MSPT is right about Clinton supporters though. Palin has been more of a turn off, on average, than an appeal to the McCain ticket:

"But six in 10 of the Clinton voters say they now favor Sen. Obama, up from 52% in August. About one in four of these Clinton voters say that the Palin pick makes them more likely to vote for Sen. McCain, but 31% said it makes them less likely to do so."
posted by dgaicun at 12:11 PM on September 10, 2008

Regionally, Gallup finds solid gains for McCain in all areas of the country except the West, where his already fairly high support has held steady. However, the 9-point increase for McCain in the South on top of his previous 49% support level in that region makes the South now overwhelmingly pro-McCain, 58% to 36%.
posted by konolia at 12:12 PM on September 10, 2008

I think it is disingenuous...

And when McCain used it in reference to Hillary...?

Are you familiar with the term cognitive dissonance?

Also, how about McCain's stated tax policies that will likely increase YOUR PERSONAL INCOME TAXES konolia? Really, don't listen to what comes out of these peoples' mouths. mcCain has put his policies down on paper - have you read them? And have you noticed they're designed to help rich people a lot and normal people not-at-all?

It's bizarre that people who say they want smaller government vote for these people that raise taxes and end up increasing the size of government. Unless you think the US military isn't an arm of the government.
posted by GuyZero at 12:12 PM on September 10, 2008 [6 favorites]

At the start of this thread many of you were certain Palin would not last the weekend as the VP nominee. I'm sure that by now that you realize how wrong you were on that point.

I wasn't. I KNEW about Palin before most Republicans did. the same goofballs who now act like this totally unknown goober is their best oldest friend when they didn't know who she was from Adam three weeks ago.

I'm not shocked. I predicted a Republican win two years ago. I predicted McCain had about 60+% chance months ago. And all for the reasons I have stated repeatedly. It has very little to do with "values."

Our core values are frigg'n conceptually identical. Freedom. Peace. A safe environment to raise our children. Clean air. Clean water. Financial security. Affordable health care.

It has everything to do with the base voters, the deciders of split electorate elections, being uninformed morons.

The Republicans have understood this now for three decades. As we can see with the "Alaska is close to Russia" foreign-policy-though-osmosis meme.

You said it your self. the base their decisions on emotions. IE: They are manipulated with emotional appeals. AGAINST our shared, their own, core values.

Unless you are a member of a fairly wealthy elite or are in the defense or oil related industry you are acting against your own self interest by continuing a Republican Executive branch. This is a measurable fact.

Karl Rove accepts the fact that the base electorate are morons and uses them. The only ones that don't, despite you might think, are the Democrats. And THAT is why they lose.
posted by tkchrist at 12:12 PM on September 10, 2008 [5 favorites]

Dearest neighbor,

Kindly the shut the fuck up. Just as much as you don't like us meddling in your affairs, neither do we appreciate it in return.

What the hell is the deal with some Americans absolutely freaking out when people from other countries express opinions about U.S. politics. You'd think, given the overwhelming influence the U.S. has on the rest of the world and the fact that we like to consider ourselves to be a beneficial influence on the world, a shining beacon of light and democracy we might actually want to care what other countries think.

I hardly think you can compare expressing an opinion about something with running around assassinating leaders, invading countries, propping up dictators and staging coups. I think most Americans would get upset if the Chinese assassinated Obama. But if some poor Latin American from a country we've probably staged coups in wants to express an opinion, what the hell is the problem?

Sincerely,

(a few) Progressive voters

You sure as hell don't speak for me, asshole.
posted by delmoi at 12:20 PM on September 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

> And Obama is no idiot nor is he a fool.
> posted by konolia at 12:04 PM on September 10 [+] [!]

He's just a sexist, right? I guess that's OK.
posted by Sinner at 12:23 PM on September 10, 2008

konolia> Regionally, Gallup finds solid gains for McCain in all areas of the country except the West, where his already fairly high support has held steady. However, the 9-point increase for McCain in the South on top of his previous 49% support level in that region makes the South now overwhelmingly pro-McCain, 58% to 36%.

Of course there are "solid gains" for McCain in recent tracking polls for the simple reason that both candidates get bounces from their conventions. The question is whether his bounce is bigger than Obama's (and secondarily how much of this has to do with Palin specifically). And it doesn't seem to be the case, except in regions that Obama doesn't need to win.
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 12:25 PM on September 10, 2008

Actually, omegar, I thought your comment was both well-written and well-reasoned. So, yeah, barnacles? Fuck off, yourself.
posted by Sinner at 12:27 PM on September 10, 2008

So there is indication that Palin is wooing the not-guaranteed voters that she was intended to woo.

Ah, so there is. I do wonder how much of that is the flash of novelty, and how much of that is, "Wow, her policies are so very much in keeping with my own". I guess the weeks to come will tell.

I agree that he was not directly calling her a pig, and I agree that the reference itself was not aimed at her directly. But Obama is an idiot and a fool if he thought people would not make a connection.

Do you willfully ignore information, or do you just enjoy dishonestly bad-mouthing? This isn't the first time that you spout some nonsense (e.g., "Obama thinks babies are punishment"), have it soundly refuted, but then stick to the same ill-informed conclusion. If you want to engage in discussion, at least do us the courtesy of dropping this crap.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:31 PM on September 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

And Obama is no idiot nor is he a fool.

Yet you, konolia, insist on using Obama's non-idiot status as a reason not to vote for him.

Spare me your fake feminist outrage, you big faker! McCain used the phrase "lipstick on a pig" to describe Hillary Clinton and her health care proposal. One of McCain's aides, Torie Clarke, even wrote a book titled Lipstick on a Pig!

However, even if I go easy on you and concede you this stinking, rotten falsehood, the fact is that Barack Obama would still be a thousandn times more classy and non-sexist than Mr. "At-least-I-don't-plaster-on-the-makeup-like-a-trollop-you-cunt" "How do we beat the bitch?" "Why is Chelsea Clinton so ugly?" John McCain.
posted by jonp72 at 12:31 PM on September 10, 2008 [5 favorites]

Regionally, Gallup finds solid gains for McCain in all areas of the country except the West, where his already fairly high support has held steady.

If you only look at the numbers since the Republican convention, sure. If you look at the numbers since just before the Democratic convention, to get an idea of the cumulative effect on the race of both conventions, you get a slight weakening in the East for McCain (+2 Obama), a slight improvement in the South (+3 McCain), a slight weakening in the West (+2 Obama), and some more significant slippage in the Midwest (+7 Obama).

The thing about these numbers? The South was already pretty solidly for McCain. His numbers haven't improved yet in Virginia, the region's most significant swing state, and that SUSA poll konolia is touting that shows McCain with a 20 point lead in North Carolina is an serious outlier. The crosstabs are embarrassingly wacky. PPP's poll that shows McCain with a 4-point lead in NC is, I suspect, a far more accurate assessment.

In any case, McCain's bump in the national polls appears to have come almost entirely from states he was already carrying, with Obama improving in the critical Midwestern region. I'll cheerfully trade McCain gains in Mississippi and Alabama for a bigger slice of the pie in Michigan and Ohio.
posted by EarBucket at 12:43 PM on September 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

I am quite aware of the long history of use of the expression "lipstick on a pig."

What some of you are forgetting is that when Obama said it (to a crowd that hollered and giggled at the phrase knowingly) he said it while it was still fresh in the American collective memory that Palin had basically referred to herself and fellow soccer moms as a pitbull with lipstick.

Context matters, folks. Context matters.

And yes, I believe Obama is not an idiot. But I still do believe he is dangerously naive. And of course there is that pesky single issue that I REFUSE TO BEND ON.
posted by konolia at 12:50 PM on September 10, 2008

Regarding the lipstick/pic flap: I think it is disingenuous for Obama to think that if he used the "lipstick on a pig" expression in a speech it would NOT be seen as a sly reference to Palin's "pitbull with lipstick" joke.

In that follow-up video he says that stories like this are "catnip for the news media." I take that to mean he's calling the media a bunch of pussies. Obama is crafty like that.
posted by peeedro at 12:53 PM on September 10, 2008 [6 favorites]

I never said McCain was a classy guy btw.

Does anyone out there have a link that breaks down the stats state by state (in other words I want to see how the possible electoral votes would stack up?)
posted by konolia at 12:54 PM on September 10, 2008

ABC News: Match-o-Matic 2 (via Buzzfeed)

Read side by side anonymized quotes from Obama and McCain. Select the quote you most agree with. Learn which candidate's stated positions you most often agree with.

After all, its about the issues ... isn't it?
posted by anastasiav at 12:54 PM on September 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

‘Lipstick,’ told reporters that it would ‘air’ on the ‘web’

McCain ‘Lipstick’ ad pulled from YouTube due to possible copyright violation.

"Sen. John McCain’s (R-AZ) new web ad entitled 'Lipstick' was pulled from YouTube earlier today due to a 'copyright claim by CBS Interactive Inc.'

...This is at least the sixth time the McCain campaign has been the subject of a copyright complaint."

posted by ericb at 12:54 PM on September 10, 2008 [4 favorites]

Context matters, folks. Context matters.

Such as the context in which McCain, some of his staffers, and - I don't know - half the world has used this phrase? The irony is killing me here.

Seriously, I now believe that anyone who thought it was wise to engage you in an adult discussion gave you too much credit. You're either willfully ignorant or just plain mean spirited. Looks like Palin reached her base after all.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:56 PM on September 10, 2008 [10 favorites]

Does anyone out there have a link that breaks down the stats state by state (in other words I want to see how the possible electoral votes would stack up?)

Electoral-vote.com. Updated daily.
posted by anastasiav at 12:59 PM on September 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin refers to herself as a dog, Obama (supposedly) refers to her as a pig... big difference?

In any case, I heard people saying "lipstick on a pig" from the beginning when Palin and McCain started pitching themselves as reformers.

Personally, I think this all goes back to Biden. Had Obama picked someone who was more of a "maverick" (to borrow a phrase), the impact of Palin would've been more muted. But when Obama picked Biden, it left the door open for the Republican candidate to go the other way.

McCain hit it out of the park, and his campaign is now totally dominating the spin cycle. Think about it, we're debating turns of phrase, when the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are being lost, the economy is in the tank, and corruption is everywhere.
posted by cell divide at 12:59 PM on September 10, 2008

And of course there is that pesky single issue that I REFUSE TO BEND ON.

Is Obama forcing you have an abortion?
posted by chunking express at 1:01 PM on September 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

This isn't the first time that you spout some nonsense (e.g., "Obama thinks babies are punishment"), have it soundly refuted, but then stick to the same ill-informed conclusion.

Knida like: This isn't the first time that Palin spouts some nonsense about being against some bridge, have her claim soundly refuted, but then stick to telling the same lie again and again.
posted by ericb at 1:02 PM on September 10, 2008

electoral-vote is updated daily, but the statewide tracking polls are not done as often as the national polling is.
posted by cell divide at 1:02 PM on September 10, 2008

Does anyone out there have a link that breaks down the stats state by state (in other words I want to see how the possible electoral votes would stack up?)

Try pollster.com. Remember the National polls don't break down into state-by-state since the sample size becomes too small, so the state-by-state are the only ones that really matter. That site gives a chronological list + graphs for each state so you can easily see what the trend is for each state.
posted by Rumple at 1:03 PM on September 10, 2008

...to a crowd that hollered and giggled at the phrase knowingly...

That was Guliani and Palin's mention of "community organizer" (code word: uppitty negro) that got the hollers and giggles.
posted by ericb at 1:06 PM on September 10, 2008

Also, "about that North Carolina poll"
posted by Rumple at 1:07 PM on September 10, 2008

Also noted in the electoral-vote.com FAQ:

I hate this site. Is there one run by a Republican?

Yes. Take a look at electionprojection.com. It is run by someone who has devoted his life to Jesus and is strongly biased in favor of Republicans in his commentary (but his numbers seem to be OK).

Electoral-vote.com had Kerry ahead until the very last day I believe.

Intrade.com became famous for getting it exactly right:

The power of the betting markets in assimilating the collective knowledge and wisdom of those willing to back their judgment with money has only increased in recent years as the volume of money wagered has risen dramatically. Indeed, by 2004 the Intrade market model went stratospheric in predictive accuracy as the market favorite won the electoral votes of every single state in that year’s U.S. presidential election. Meanwhile more than one respected pollster and analyst called the race for John Kerry as late as election day itself.

The betting markets saw their best triumph of 2004 in Florida. Even though a number of polls put Kerry ahead in that state, or said the race was too close to call, the betting markets consistently showed Bush would win Florida comfortably.

Unfortunately, I don't know of anywhere that distills Intrade's numbers in graphical form.

Intrade has had Obama a few points up for weeks now. Today is the first time I've seen it tied.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 1:11 PM on September 10, 2008

arguing with religious extremists of any stripe is a losing proposition. God is on their side, and not yours. It's pointless. The key is to reframe the issues, something the democrats seem to have zero talent for.

You're absolutely right, of course. About the pointlessness of talking to extremists, and reframing the issues. And I think Dems could stand to improve in that area.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:14 PM on September 10, 2008

To konolia and other "single issue" voters: Did it ever occur to you that the Republican power brokers don't really give a shit about your single issue. They only use it as a trigger word to get you to mindlessly vote for them.

By unquestioningly giving them your vote, even though they've betrayed you again and again, what you're doing is tantamount to following false prophets.

I wonder how God feels about your blind obedience to those in power who repeatedly bear false witness against others. And I wonder if He feels saddened and disappointed that so many of his followers refuse to make use of the intellect He supposedly gave them.
posted by amyms at 1:18 PM on September 10, 2008 [4 favorites]

Intrade's worthless, except as a distillation of the current conventional wisdom. It has very little predictive value. The best state-by-state analysis is at 538 and Pollster.com. Election Projection and Electoral-Vote aren't bad, but they base their models on whatever the most recent polls says, which means they're more like walking outside and sticking your finger in the wind than anything.
posted by EarBucket at 1:18 PM on September 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

delmoi, sinner, fair 'nuff -- I wasn't even trying to speak for every voter. But after just returning from a few years abroad in a university environment, I'd heard those very same words many times before. Lecture after lecture after lecture from non-Americans about how we're all idiots and how we're not trying and how we need to shape up our act and why the hell haven't we got our shit together and put a decent president in power yet? And if you're exposed to that over and over again, it does start to get old, because we are trying. Lots of us are. Just because an idiot gets elected, please don't lecture the rest of us about it -- because we know! We know and we're not happy about it.

So omegar, sorry about snapping there -- but that's a snap born of three years of talking to non-American liberals about US politics and trying my damnedest to explain the situation, and geting lectured in return about how I'm still not doing enough.
posted by barnacles at 1:20 PM on September 10, 2008

You gotta love Palin using a personal email address for state business AND copying her husband on some of the mails. With that, Alaska's own Sen. Steven's "internet full of tubes" and McCain's technophobia, I'm pretty freaked out.

At the tech-savvy Personal Democracy Forum conference in June, Mark Soohoo, McCain's deputy e-campaign director, drew snickers when he desperately insisted, "You don't necessarily have to use a computer to understand how it shapes the country ... John McCain is aware of the Internet."

This is how dangerous, dangerous legislation like the House and Senate bills currently threatening my industry and livelihood (plus, I would hazard to say, many other MeFites') get started and fast-tracked.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 1:20 PM on September 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Marisa, the fact that you refuse to see my point does not mean I don't have one.

People have been chuckling at that pitbull with lipstick reference for days now. Obama had to know that ANY reference to lipstick -whether you are applying it to a pitbull, a pig or a Presbyterian-would immediately be referenced back to Palin's signature joke.
posted by konolia at 1:21 PM on September 10, 2008

Context matters, folks. Context matters.

Your context matters too, konolia. I have seen you disparage feminism in this thread when you have wanted to make a point against abortion, but then you display faux feminist outrage when it's convenient for you.

I don't care if you are opposed to abortion. What I do care is that you use lies and falsehoods to further your goal of opposing abortion. You are choosing to believe in lies. You are choosing to bear false witness against your neighbor.
posted by jonp72 at 1:22 PM on September 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

Unfortunately, I don't know of anywhere that distills Intrade's numbers in graphical form.

Intrade is one of the many sources that RCP uses for their own data graphic.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:25 PM on September 10, 2008

Hey, you guys, you guys! You won't believe this. I just found this speech where somebody basically straight-up calls Sarah Palin a short, fat, nasty, slobbering bitch! ZOMG SEXISM!
posted by designbot at 1:26 PM on September 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

Sarah Palin's GOP acceptance speech borrows quote from Westbrook Pegler, an anti-Semitic newspaper columnist from the 1930s who favored the assassination of FDR. More info on Pegler can be found here.
posted by jonp72 at 1:28 PM on September 10, 2008

Looks like Palin reached her base after all.

No. She's a frigg'n hero. Because SHE WON'T BEND!

Now do you get me, here?

Look these so called "values-voters" have minds like small children. MINE! MINE! MINE!

And it's precisely how the GOP treats them. They use endless repetition of carefully phrased single-syllable highly emotional catch phrases. They remove any policy from the discussion. And when they rarely do talk bout policy it is utterly without nuance.

The Democrats have gotten into this habit of thinking the American electorate are more akin to angsty teenagers. Teenagers who think they are smarter than they really are and posses some kind of appreciation of subtlety. Well. They don't.

It's funny that right wing Christians feel the democrats talk down to them. Hilarious. When in fact the Democrats give them too much credit. They use multi-syllabic words, go into long boring wonky policy discussion, and use geographical references that morons don't understand. STOP TALKING DOWN TO ME___ I DON'T UNDERSTAND THESE WORDS COMING OUT OF YOUR MOUTH, YOU EGG HEAD!

Where as the Republicans KNOW these people are idiots, so they just scream: "TERROR!" "ABORTION!" And now a new one "SEXIST!" Which conceptually must really throw these mouth breathers off because they were told that there was no such thing before.

CITY ON A HILL! GOD BLESS AMERICA! DRILL BABY DRILL! Ahhhhh. Yes. That is so much better. I AM SMART!

I want to think about this for a second. Ronald Reagan. Remember when HE was the big lefty boogie man. Now we look back on him like "Wow. What an intellectual!" He was really one of the first to rediscover the American Moron. He played them like a fiddle. He wasn't even remotely religious but managed to convince the Right Wing Xtian nutbags he was the second coming. How? He said he would take on the communists. Which is a code word for Atheists. The American Moron would know A Five Year Plan from Marx's Four Forms of Alienation. What's interesting is rather than go to war with Russia, Reagan opened up an unprecedented dialog with the Soviets. Much is made with his "spending the Soviets out of existence" but really he opened entirely new levels of diplomacy.

The irony is that this out spending the Soviets created massive deficits (remember when deficits didn't matter? LOL) which forced our crazy selling T Bills to China and massive domestic budget problems and stagflation. All of which has accumulated to forcing more women into the work force so there are fewer stay at home moms. The ROOT of the much lamented "break down" of the family.

But see. The American Moron has moved on to "TERROR" and "ABORTION."

Yeah. 8 more years of that. Everything will be just fine. If your rich enough to buy your way out of the coming shit storm. Which most Right Wing mouth breathers are not. And most of us college educated coastal liberal "elites" ARE.

And when the shit really comes down I'm sure by then the Republican Base will have realized the true source of all their problems.

Oh. Not themselves. No. It's Fags. Of course.
posted by tkchrist at 1:32 PM on September 10, 2008 [28 favorites]

And Obama is no idiot nor is he a fool.

Let me remind you it was Palin who referred to herself metaphorically as a pitbull with lipstick. Obama's comment appropriately used a common phrase for futile attempts at making something distasteful seem attractive to describe exactly that activity, and he probably was aware that it reflected her well known use of a similar phrase. It was quite clever, actually, because it pointed out the naked spinning by the Republicans and reminded listeners that Palin described herself in such a disparaging way. Nice work, IMHO.
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:33 PM on September 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Obama had to know that ANY reference to lipstick -whether you are applying it to a pitbull, a pig or a Presbyterian-would immediately be referenced back to Palin's signature joke.

I see your point just fine, but it's patently dishonest and takes a tremendous leap of faith. Palin using the word "lipstick" in a speech doesn't make a very common turn of phrase - one that McCain and his own people have gleefully used - suddenly off limits. Sweet potatoes, lady, don't even try this crap with me.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:35 PM on September 10, 2008 [11 favorites]

People have been chuckling at that pitbull with lipstick reference for days now. Obama had to know that ANY reference to lipstick -whether you are applying it to a pitbull, a pig or a Presbyterian-would immediately be referenced back to Palin's signature joke.

If the target of the "lipstick on a pig" joke had been Hillary Clinton or any other pro-choice female politician, you wouldn't be batting an eye, konolia. Your posts don't even stand up to the simplest version of the "Would she say this if the shoe was on the other foot?" test.
posted by jonp72 at 1:37 PM on September 10, 2008 [4 favorites]

<>em>My first reaction upon hearing Barack Obama's "lipstick on a pig" remark was that it was deliberate. Not a deliberate attempt to smear Sarah Palin per se, but a deliberate attempt to provoke exactly the sort of fanatical reaction that they have gotten from the Republicans. The McCain campaign has spent a week campaigning on big themes and big personalities, and gotten a fair amount of mileage out of it. This takes everyone back down a notch, back down to the tedium and banality of partisan politics. It would be wishful thinking to call it a momentum-changer, but it may by default be a momentum-stopper. The convention/Palinmania phase of the news cycle -- a phase the Republicans clearly thought they were winning -- is now over</em

This from one of Earbucket's polling links up above.

I am not particularly calling Obama a sexist. I am merely pointing out that he had to know that that phrase he used would get some...attention.
posted by konolia at 1:48 PM on September 10, 2008

Your posts don't even stand up to the simplest version of the "Would she say this if the shoe was on the other foot?" test

But why should they? She's supporting her candidate that she feels was attacked and she provides good evidence for it. It's a typical democratic response to try to say well you wouldn't say the same thing if... my eyes are already glazing over.

Hillary Clinton is irrelevant, she's not running for president. Too. Much. Logic. Instead you should be saying well who cares, Palin is a pig-- she's against everything America stands for, she's greedy with earmarks, and she's running as a woman-of-the-people when in fact she's a religious extremist who doesn't respect classic American values.
posted by cell divide at 1:50 PM on September 10, 2008

I am merely pointing out that he had to know that that phrase he used would get some...attention.

Well, it certainly flushed out the hypocrites in the McCain camp, that's for sure.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 1:52 PM on September 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

Over 4,000 Americas have died in Iraq, tens of thousand have been wounded and maimed. John McCain has been talking about "victory," but gives no idea what that victory would look like or how it's going to come about.

You people--and a good portion of the American electorate--are arguing over whether or not Barry called Sarah a pig.
posted by neroli at 1:53 PM on September 10, 2008 [4 favorites]

And of course there is that pesky single issue that I REFUSE TO BEND ON.

Look, not every damn piece of food has to be fried, OK? LET IT GO.

Just most of the them

Now do you get me, here?

Yes, tkchrist, we got it, must you do a screed about it every 50 posts or so?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:53 PM on September 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

tkchrist posts are the only thing keeping me refreshing this thread. konoila's 'arguments' are entertaining also.
posted by chunking express at 2:06 PM on September 10, 2008

Anne Kilkenny, the Wasilla native who wrote that much-linked essay about Palin, is on CFRB radio in Toronto now. The CFRB page includes a "listen live" link in the top left.
posted by maudlin at 2:13 PM on September 10, 2008

Yes, tkchrist, we got it, must you do a screed about it every 50 posts or so?

And here I thought I might be being too subtle?

Didn't you say that people are smart?
posted by tkchrist at 2:18 PM on September 10, 2008

If McCain get's elected and I can't afford to move to France I'm gonna go get a job with Karl Rove.

I will point to this thread as my credentials and he will he me on the spot. I will propose to troll the liberal base using his American Moron tactics and get liberals to waste time arguing simultaneously how they are too smart to fall for that shit AND how the values voters can't possibly be that dumb. Such things are way too cynical, they will say.

And then they will continue to lose election after election. And together Rove and I, we will get paid in Euros and buy swimming pools filled with Bolle and pornstars.
posted by tkchrist at 2:32 PM on September 10, 2008

Dick Cheney (November 1, 2004)

"As we say in Wyoming -- (laughter) -- you can put all the lipstick you want on a pig, but at the end of the day, it's still a pig. (Applause.)"

Lynne Cheney (October 13, 2004)

"And in Wyoming, we've got a saying for what it is when you keep trying to make something that's not so good look good, we call it putting lipstick on a pig. (Laughter.) Yes. (Applause.) And it doesn't work."

"One great resource: the White House website...read on for some of the three dozen examples used by Cheney et al."
posted by ericb at 2:38 PM on September 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

I can't believe a randomly-generated comic strip is hitting the nail on the head. I'm tired of this election.
posted by cortex at 2:44 PM on September 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Not a deliberate attempt to smear Sarah Palin per se, but a deliberate attempt to provoke exactly the sort of fanatical reaction that they have gotten from the Republicans.

It's rather unfair to say Obama is guilty for McCain's overreaction. If Obama set a trap, it's not his fault that McCain stumbled into it.
posted by effwerd at 2:52 PM on September 10, 2008

Pigs and pols

“It's hard to imagine a sillier ‘controversy’ than the kerfuffle over whether Barack Obama dissed Sarah ‘Pit Bull With Lipstick’ Palin by commenting, in relation to John McCain's economic policies, that ‘you can put lipstick on a pig, but it's still a pig.’ But the fact that even a manufactured controversy could be generated by a porcine analogy is a reminder of the prominent position of pig put-downs in everything from political discourse to Holy Scripture.

Obama's (unoriginal) comment about red-lipped pigs is in the tradition of referring to wasteful government spending as ‘pork’ (from ‘pork barrel; see also ‘bringing home the bacon’). The term ‘earmarks,’ of course derives from the practice of clipping an identification tag to the ear of a pig or other farm animal. But pigs are the objects of defamation way outside the Beltway. Gluttons ‘pig out.’ My mother used to upbraid her messy sons for turning our bedrooms into pigsties. Even Charles Schulz, the gentle progenitor of ‘Peanuts,’ called one of his characters ‘Pigpen’ because the kid was a dirt magnet.

Even Jesus disparaged pigs, and not just because they were unclean. He also suggested that they were uncouth. According to the Gospel of Matthew, he warned his disciples not to ‘cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.’ (To be fair, Jesus also took a dig, however metaphorical, at man's best friend, saying: ‘Give not that which is holy unto the dogs.’)

Occasionally one will come across a revisionist view of pigs citing their intelligence and loyalty. But the Obama-Palin tiff is a reminder that when politicians jab at each other, there may be a pig in the poke.”

posted by ericb at 2:53 PM on September 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

And yes, I believe Obama is not an idiot. But I still do believe he is dangerously naive. And of course there is that pesky single issue that I REFUSE TO BEND ON.

So why be so dishonest as to pretend it's like anything else? Like because Obama is pro choice, somehow he's also a sexist? That's a bit much.

I mean, come on John McCain is the guy who said Chesea Clinton was ugly because her dad was secretly Janet Reno.

---

Anyway, I think the McCain campaign has actually jumped the shark in the past day or so. They've way overplayed their hand and even the ridiculous MSM is calling him on it.
posted by delmoi at 2:53 PM on September 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Hyperlink: Pigs and pols.
posted by ericb at 2:54 PM on September 10, 2008

More on the takedown of the "Lipstick" ad at YouTube...

CBS takes down McCain webad, suggests it's 'misleading'

"YouTube has removed a webad that casts Sarah Palin as the victim of sexism on the request of CBS, whose anchor Katie Couric was featured in the ad.

'One of the great lessons of that campaign is the continued and accepted role of sexism in American life,' Couric is quoted in the ad.

In the original clip, which aired months before Palin entered the race, Couric was talking about Hillary Clinton. The ad applies her words to Palin.

Asked about the ad, CBS spokeswoman Leigh Farris said, 'CBS News does not endorse any candidate in the Presidential race. Any use of CBS personnel in political advertising that suggests the contrary is misleading.'

YouTube's page displaying the ad now tells visitors, 'This video is no longer available due to a copyright claim by CBS Interactive Inc.'

Couric's original commentary can be seen here. McCain still has the ad, 'Lipstick,' on his website."

posted by ericb at 2:59 PM on September 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

...if a pig had a better personality, he would cease to be a filthy animal. Is that true?

Well we'd have to be talkin' about one charming motherfuckin' pig.
posted by found missing at 3:04 PM on September 10, 2008 [4 favorites]

McCain May Have Opened Door For Charges That He Is A Sexist

…if sexism is a debate McCain wants to have, then Obama may be well suited for it. That's because the Arizona Republican's resume contains several inflammatory remarks about women. Just this election cycle, for example, McCain did not protest as a questioner at a town hall meeting referred to Hillary Clinton as a bitch. McCain went on to say he respected Clinton, but he laughed when the question itself -- ‘how do we beat the bitch?’ -- was asked.

In 1998, McCain famously made his tasteless joke about Chelsea Clinton's looks, claiming the then first daughter was ‘so ugly’ because ‘her father is Janet Reno.’ He later apologized.

Then there are the unconfirmed reports. From Cliff Schechter's book, The Real McCain, there is the report that McCain publicly insulted his wife, Cindy, during the 1992 Senate campaign, including referring to her as a ‘trollop’ and ‘cunt.’ In the 1986 campaign, the Tucson Citizen reported on allegations that McCain had told a Republican audience a disturbing joke about a woman enjoying being raped by a gorilla. Both of these accounts have been denied by McCain and his campaign.

What Democrats will do with these mostly little-known stories remains to be seen. Certainly, a campaign ad highlighting these instances would be met with harsh resistance from the McCain campaign and be proclaimed an example of Democratic desperation or deteriorating morals. Indeed, how willing Obama is to roll up his sleeves on this front could end up signifying one of the major differences between him and McCain.

As it stands now, the Illinois Democrat seems more content to take the high ground to the McCain attack and, in the process, point out the more substantive issues on which they say the Republican ticket would be bad for women, such as abortion rights, equal pay, and health care policy.”

posted by ericb at 3:07 PM on September 10, 2008

Meghan McCain, American Hero:

"I've heard my dad say that, the term 'lipstick on a pig,'" McCain said during an appearance on Fox promoting her new children's book about her father.

Asked directly if she thought Obama was calling Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin (R) a pig, McCain said, "I don't know. I hope not. I mean, I hope not, but I have no idea."

"I don't like anyone being referred to as a pig in any context," McCain added. "I think there's a lot more educated conversations we can have about the ticket than just saying these remarks like that."

(via)
posted by MegoSteve at 3:16 PM on September 10, 2008

Does anyone out there have a link that breaks down the stats state by state

As others have noted, there are several.

I really wouldn't pay a lot of attention to electoral-vote. Unless the methodology is different behind the scenes, it seems to just take the most recent poll and use that as gospel.

pollster.com is good in that it has very sharp people behind it. Chuck Franklin = teh smart. Brian Schaffner is younger, but also quite good. It creates a trend that it tries to project out to election day, but AFAIK only makes use of polls. It does at least make explicit use of multiple polls.

fivethirtyeight has the benefit of a bit more advanced methodology (which doesn't mean it's right). Nate Silver combines polls with other information to do much the same as pollster, but then he runs a whole shitload of simulated elections to see how they shake out. This is where those weird spiky graphs on the right side come from. The question is whether the assumptions in his model are so restrictive or unrealistic that they overwhelm the goodness of more information.

Both of them generally agree that while Obama has maybe a slight advantage going in (in that Obama's safe states are bigger than McCain's), the right response to "Who's gonna win?" is to shrug and look confused.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:22 PM on September 10, 2008 [3 favorites]

OMG! I figured it out!
The reason the people on the right are so offended by the pig comment is because they are secretly Muslim!
posted by cimbrog at 3:28 PM on September 10, 2008 [7 favorites]

Meghan McCain, American Hero

She is so grounded.
posted by cortex at 3:37 PM on September 10, 2008

konolia, the ~~Republicans~~ folks at MadTV don't know a thing about using candidates' words against them. (@ 1:30) Not at all!

/sarcasm
posted by skyper at 3:42 PM on September 10, 2008

Sarah Palin's GOP acceptance speech borrows quote from Westbrook Pegler

A quote from that link

Frank notes that he talked hopefully of the assassination of Franklin Roosevelt.

reminds me of a story an oncologist friend of mine told me regarding konolia's and dawson's home state. He was a medical student at Duke University in 1963 and working in the hospital. Although at the time NC was a beacon of enlightenment among southern states regarding race relations, things were still going slowly, so there were two public wards, one, named for Ostler, for whites and another for blacks. He was in the Ostler ward, named for the eminent physician, when the news of JFK's assassination came over the television. The ward broke out in cheering. As he told me this story, my friend began to weep. I had never seen him do this before.

Social change moves slowly in the south, not the least because some politicians are eager to exploit the historical hatreds. Those enlightened individuals who nevertheless support these politicians are evil, because they know better.
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:42 PM on September 10, 2008 [9 favorites]

A large proportion of us (half? hopefully more than half?) are quite aware of what's going on and we want -- shit, we yearn for change! We're literally trying as hard as we can here

Are you really trying as hard as you can?

In other countries riots happen when the election is stolen. That does not seem to happen in the USA.
posted by five fresh fish at 4:26 PM on September 10, 2008

In other countries riots happen when the election is stolen.

People have too much to lose by protesting, let alone armed rebellion.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:33 PM on September 10, 2008

John McCain is the guy who said Chesea Clinton was ugly because her dad was secretly Janet Reno.

If some dude said something like about MY daughter and I knew where to find him I'd serve him a serious punch-o-gram.

I'd like be a fly on the wall in the Clinton's house after that. Recall supposedly Hillary had Vince Foster offed over just money. Obviously they can't have that bad a temper if McCain is still upright.
posted by tkchrist at 4:43 PM on September 10, 2008

People have too much to lose by protesting, let alone armed rebellion.

Give it a couple decades. But by then who will baby sit your malnourished babies back in the favela?
posted by tkchrist at 4:59 PM on September 10, 2008

You know, twice I've not gotten into the thread when the first dude's use of email was discussed. And the first time I wondered to myself if he was using a state-provided account. Now it sounds like he wasn't. Which is dumb, at least if it was state-controlled you could call up your buddy to smash the drive. Now the NSA has the email.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 5:06 PM on September 10, 2008

Drill, Baby, Drill -- Shocking Oil-For-Sex-And-Cocaine Scandal Engulfs Sarah Palin's Fave Federal Agency.
posted by ericb at 5:10 PM on September 10, 2008

I saw Meghan McCain's book about her father while shopping today, so I leafed through it. She totally ignored his previous wife and children as if they never existed. I wasn't surprised.

The McCain team is nervous about the "lipstick on a pig" comment because they are afraid everyone will find out that Sarah Palin has CLOVEN HOOVES!
posted by Daddy-O at 5:14 PM on September 10, 2008

Millions of Americans...MILLIONS...marched in protest against the war in Iraq. It barely got a a passing note in the media. Except the feds, dressed as "turrists", who broke some windows and started some shit...the "anarchists" got coverage, but not the millions of peaceful marchers.

Rioting isn't really an option when faced with a heavily armed opponent willing to kill you, who happens to be the biggest kid on the block that nobody else in the world can stop.

This is a country with "freedom of speech" cages. Fucking cages. That's where you can voice your objections to the established system. In a cage. Get out of the cage, and the cops will beat the bejebus out of you, then claim you were an "anarchist".

When people in other countries riot, they're fairly sure that someone will step in to stop their government before the government kills everyone. Who's gonna stop the US? What country would land troops in the largest nuke power? Nobody. Because the US would blow up the entire damn planet, as long as the current crop of leaders is in charge.

And the Righteous Believers^TM would cheer the storm troopers on. We have met the enemy, and he is us.
posted by dejah420 at 5:15 PM on September 10, 2008 [10 favorites]

First the GOP/McCain camp was against bringing candidate kids into the campaign -- except for the fact that they leaked to Reuters that Bristol Palin was 5-months pregnant. Oh, and the GOP flew her beau, Levi, to St. Paul, so that the unmarried couple (who conceived out-of-wedlock) could be greeted by McCain on the tarmac and later stand on a national stage at the RNC.

Now the GOP/McCain seem to be for bringing candidate kids into the brouhaha -- GOP trying to trash Biden's daughter.

I guess all is "fair in love and war."

Meet Track ("I'm Off to Iraq") Palin, Drug Addict, Womanizer and Kleptomaniac.

The Palin Family. A Beacon of Right Wing Family Values!
posted by ericb at 5:24 PM on September 10, 2008

As a commenter said elsewhere: "Palin sure has a lot of junk in her trunk!"
posted by ericb at 5:27 PM on September 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

John McCain Recycling Not Only Bush Policy, But Attack Ads Too.

McCain = Bush.
posted by ericb at 5:30 PM on September 10, 2008

This progressive voter from a border state thinks we could learn an awful lot from foreign leftists. For one thing, they actually *are* leftists. For example, the CBC announced this evening that the leader of the Green Party will be participating in election debates.

Remember when Castro offered doctors and aid after Katrina? And we *needed* it?
posted by QIbHom at 6:35 PM on September 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

dejah420: When people in other countries riot, they're fairly sure that someone will step in to stop their government before the government kills everyone.

You honestly believe that Americans don't protest because their government is so much more dangerous than any other? And that people in other countries feel safe protesting against their corrupt governments because they know that good ol' America will step in and save them?

Like they did in Zimbabwe earlier this year?
Like they are in Kenya now?
Like they stepped in to save Tibetans earlier this year?
Like they helped out the Sudanese over the past few years?
posted by jacalata at 6:35 PM on September 10, 2008 [2 favorites]

Slate reports that Palin has been haunting people's dreams like a fairytale ghost: "In the Sarah Palin dream I keep having, she has superhuman powers but is not really a person at all. In fact, she is more like the weather with glasses and an up-do, pushing clouds around and pitching lightning bolts." Slate asks their readers to send in their dreams about Sarah Palin.
posted by Kattullus at 6:40 PM on September 10, 2008

And we have entered the Twilight Zone at long last...
posted by dawson at 7:14 PM on September 10, 2008

Sarah Palin now bores me.

Is there another freaky-deaky politician we can talk about?
posted by five fresh fish at 7:47 PM on September 10, 2008

Lipstick on the media's ass.
posted by porn in the woods at 7:52 PM on September 10, 2008

Sarah Palin now bores me.

Is there another freaky-deaky politician we can talk about?

Well, take your pick:

Karadzic, Mao, Musharif, Solzhenitsyn, Georgia, Iran, Russia

You know, those other places
posted by lysdexic at 8:30 PM on September 10, 2008

And of course there is that pesky single issue that I REFUSE TO BEND ON.

you're absolutely right, konolia - if pigs want to wear lipstick, that's their god-given right as american pigs and i say let them!
posted by pyramid termite at 9:08 PM on September 10, 2008 [1 favorite]

Is there another freaky-deaky politician we can talk about?

Bill Clinton?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:52 AM on September 11, 2008

Sarah Palin Tried To Have Stand-In Take Her Place In Gubernatorial Debate.

Wow.

instead of canceling her dumb conflict, because who cares — she tried to get her running mate to debate for her. Her two challengers wouldn’t agree to this because… just… just NO. What the hell? NO LADY NO.

Somehow Wonkette is managing to directly quote the things I would've said if I wrote the article. It's like they have a direct line into my skull or something.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 6:25 AM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Is there another freaky-deaky politician we can talk about?

Bill Clinton?

Yeah, but even Bill Clinton never came up with a scandal as juicy as the oil/sex/drugs/lobbying scandal just uncovered at the Department of the Interior.

Strictly from a nonpartisan point of view, I don't know why this scandal seems like such a nonstarter. It's not complicated. It's got everything: oil, sex, drugs, and bribery. The only things it doesn't have are bestiality and pedophilia. Unfortunately, there is such a constant background level of corruption from the Bush Administration that both liberals and conservatives seem to be saying, "Ho-hum! Another scandal? Talk about dog-bites-man!"
posted by jonp72 at 6:35 AM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

The DoI scandal is juicy. Especially if you add in the background of how much the Bush administration has meddled with that department.

Then again, we've had so many Republican scandals involving bribes and /or sex recently. We haven't had one with drugs recently. It is kind of refreshing.

Maybe if it involved abortion, homosexuality and Muslims it'd be getting more attention.
posted by QIbHom at 6:58 AM on September 11, 2008

No, don't you get it? Everything has changed! It's a big election about small things. Keep up, would you?

An issue is an issue, no matter how small.
posted by lysdexic at 7:16 AM on September 11, 2008

ABC investigates Palin's queries about banning books.
posted by Bookhouse at 7:41 AM on September 11, 2008

Anyone with children -- sons, grandons, nephews -- who are now pre-teens or early teens should be concerned. To staff an already stretched military force we may likely see a draft...one needed to fulfill the blood-lust of the neocon strategy intended on invading yet another country in the Middle East.

McCain means the draft.
posted by ericb at 7:56 AM on September 11, 2008

Matt Damon on Sarah Palin.
posted by lunit at 8:09 AM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

The American Moron has moved on to "TERROR" and "ABORTION."

Can the Terrotions be far behind?
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 8:35 AM on September 11, 2008

'I am a liberal, but I'm blown away by Sarah Palin'

My liberal friends were outraged when rumours about Barack Obama attending a Madrassa or being a Muslim surfaced on the internet, but all week they have been gleefully trading emails of Sarah Palin distortions.

There was the doctored picture of her carrying a rifle, wearing a stars-and-stripes bikini while a man in the background drank Schlitz beer. Or dopey quotes about God, creationism and moose, all of which have been subsequently debunked.

Rebecca Johnson
posted by dawson at 8:52 AM on September 11, 2008

I am a liberal, but I'm blown away by Sarah Palin

Me TOO! Wow, but, oh, wait, um. I think we are using different sense of the term 'blown away'. Or 'liberal'. Or both.
posted by dirtdirt at 9:01 AM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Matt Damon was the narrator for the entire multiple disc Audiobook set of Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States." I'd actually feel more comfortable if he were running for Vice President.
posted by iamkimiam at 9:07 AM on September 11, 2008 [4 favorites]

I started to correct the silly equivocation attempt you just posted, dawson, but I'm trying to quit spending a ton of time focusing on distractions. Having a photoshop of Sarah Palin with a gun, when she's on the cover of newsweek with a gun, is not the same as a muslim smear. What dopey quote about god was debunked? The quotes and information I saw was linked to news websites like the Frontiersman and Alaska Daily News. Reputable publications. What dopey creationism quote was there? She does believe in creationism, and many would argue that's dopey in and of itself. I can't imagine one creationism quote could be so much dopier than another. What moose quote? I've read a ton of information in this thread and I don't recall these things - it seems like some kind of half attempt to feel bad for Sarah and dismiss away criticism.

But since I fell for it anyway and responded to the silly distraction, I liked this comment at dawson's link.

I too am an American, liberal, white, east coast,
middle class woman. And Sarah Palin horrifies
me.

Her gender is far less important to me than the
idea that once again the U.S. might vote into
office someone based on some television-
inspired "likability" factor, rather than on brains
and judgment.

George W. Bush was likable. My son, as a
teenager, met the President and was shocked to
find that the man behind the execrable policies
was personable, charming, warm, and funny. But
as we now know, GWB couldn't govern his way
out of a paper bag and did our country
inestimable harm.

"If her paper on the Lincoln-Douglas debate
wasn't the most nuanced, so be it. Something
has to give." Really??? This is foolishness. The
last thing that should "give" in selecting a
country's leader is intellectual ability and capacity
for nuance.

I don't hunt but as a small farmer I raise and
butcher all my family's meat -- I can field dress
a bull calf probably as rapidly as Mrs. Palin can
field dress a moose. I, too, live in an unforgiving
northern climate, and have an enormous wood
pile for heat. I don't delude myself that this has
any bearing on any potential ability to govern.

As a teacher of American history I find Sarah
Palin an absolutely terrifying prospect, and have
sent in my first-ever political contribution to the
Obama campaign.
Posted by Tess Harding on September 11, 2008 2:36 PM

posted by cashman at 9:15 AM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Matt Damon was the narrator for the entire multiple disc Audiobook set of Howard Zinn's "A People's History of the United States."

Did he use his Boston accent? Because that would be hilarious.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:17 AM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

That Rebecca Johnson article is all kinds of dumb. Life is like high school, people will vote for the cute guy, accept it and then we can talk about "the issues."

We should celebrate what is groundbreaking about Sarah Palin: a card-carrying member of Feminists for Life is a big step forward from Housewives for Life.

What does that even mean?
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 9:26 AM on September 11, 2008

In the Christian nation of the United States of America being labeled as a Muslim is almost as bad as being called an athiest. It is poliitical suicide. The same people concerned about his being Muslim also were complaining about what his pastor said in a Christian church. You can't be Muslim and Christian at the same time. But that doesn't stop the truth squad.

The Palin rumors were/are actually mostly positive to her base and campaign (even the photoshop bikini pic). She's coated in Teflon® just like the original.

The scariest part of dawson's article in The Telegraph was this line:

"You're one of the few people who has interviewed her for a national publication," the publicist answered, referring to an article I had written earlier this year profiling the governor of Alaska for the magazine.

A candidate for Vice President of the United States that counts Vogue as national press scares the shit out of me, but it makes her more "real" to her fans. She's an outsider! She's a maverick!
posted by birdherder at 9:27 AM on September 11, 2008

combustible edison lighthouse - it means that identity politics have won and the republicans are now converted to using them to get elected

people should have seen this day coming
posted by pyramid termite at 9:32 AM on September 11, 2008

Did he use his Boston accent? Because that would be hilarious.

"Do you like blankets? Well, I just gave you smallpox. How ya like them blankets?"
posted by cortex at 9:39 AM on September 11, 2008 [10 favorites]

Can we please get an audio clip of that?
posted by iamkimiam at 9:45 AM on September 11, 2008

Aides traveling with Ms. Palin have reported back to associates that she is a fast study — asking few questions of her policy briefers but quickly repeating back their main points — who already has considerable ease and experience before cameras.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 9:47 AM on September 11, 2008

I hate to get all Godwin, but have you noticed how much the Republicans have in common with the Nazis? They keep repeating lies until the lies are accepted as truth. They manipulate the people through fear, overstated claims of persecution and victimhood. They make false claims against other countries to justify an invasion. Sarah Palin is an excellent speechmaker who appeals to the average citizen, speaks in folksy terms, and she has a natural knack for riling up the crowds. On the other hand, some find her abhorrent, scary, threatening, and transparent. Remind you of anyone?

As the following response to the response to the Rebecca Johnson article puts it, I am beginning to understand how the "good Germans" must have felt in the 1930's.

Well Ms. Johnson,

If you're a liberal and blown away by this Palin character than sadly, the only organ that seems to be functioning is your uterus. How anyone can be so taken in by this astounds me. If there is one thing the conservatives know how to do is sell their brand of corn flakes. And I do emphasis flakes. She's no feminist. She's just Karl Rove's frosting on the corrupt, anti-American cake. It disgusts me that my nation has become populated by total braindead idiots!! Guess I can understand why the conservatives have worked so hard to dumb down the education of our students. They don't want people who have the capacity of critical thinking. It would create a populace of thinkers! A populace that might actually start questioning the fascists who now have total control of our government. To the people of the world, please understand, not all of Americans are so taken in by these Rovian tactics. In the 1930's, 91% of Germans voted to give Hitler dictatorial powers. I know how bitterly the other 9% felt at the stupidity of their fellow citizens.
Posted by Thedes on September 11, 2008 12:41 PM
posted by Daddy-O at 9:47 AM on September 11, 2008

Keep this up, guys, and major backlash is sure to follow. Sarah Palin may be no Hillary Clinton, but if she faces the same sort of sexism that Hillary did, she may yet capture many of her supporters. ~Susan Estrich
posted by dawson at 9:50 AM on September 11, 2008

TRANSLATION: Do not criticize anything Palin has said or done, lest you be called a sexist.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:52 AM on September 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

I am totally hot for the Boston accent. I can't help it. And I've only just started to read the Zinn book in paperback, but now that's all I'm gonna hear. THANKS A LOT, CORTEX.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 9:56 AM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

And oh, how many others are afraid that the Charlie Gibson interview with Sarah Palin is going to be an uncritical series of softball questions with no follow up when she lies through her teeth? The US deserves a Sarah Palin interview that forces her to prove she is ready and able to be president TDAY.
posted by Daddy-O at 9:56 AM on September 11, 2008

Jesus fucking Christ, I can't believe that people are AGAIN trying to decide a major race based on the likeability of candidates (VP candidates no less).

It's like being stuck with someone seriously positing Coldplay as the best band of the 20th century because Chris Martin seems like an alright bloke. You just want to yell "YOU ARE SO STUPID! DON'T YOU FUCKING GET IT?" over and over.
posted by klangklangston at 9:57 AM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

I don't know about "afraid", but I'm pretty sure everyone is assuming it. It's on a morning show today isn't it? I guess we'll all know soon.
posted by Artw at 9:59 AM on September 11, 2008

It's like being stuck with someone seriously positing Coldplay as the best band of the 20th century because Chris Martin seems like an alright bloke.

Whoah, hang on. There's no need to conjure up nightmarish, post-apocalyptic scenarios just to make your point.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:03 AM on September 11, 2008 [4 favorites]

Keep this up, guys, and major backlash is sure to follow. Sarah Palin may be no Hillary Clinton, but if she faces the same sort of sexism that Hillary did, she may yet capture many of her supporters. ~Susan Estrich

Oh lookie, it's a troll quoting a concern troll. A meta-troll, if you will...
posted by jonp72 at 10:09 AM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Back on topic: I like Coldplay.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 10:13 AM on September 11, 2008

I don't know about "afraid", but I'm pretty sure everyone is assuming it.

Yeah, it's not so much afraid of. It's pretty much already understood. The fact that she's been stalling for 2 weeks and then does one interview, when there's a month and a half left until the election is just ridiculous. But this is just the start of the craziness, I'm sure.

But I think when her "interview" airs, that might be the logical endpoint of this announcement thread. For a two-week period, it sure seemed like a solid month.
posted by cashman at 10:14 AM on September 11, 2008

"I now believe that anyone who thought it was wise to engage you in an adult discussion gave you too much credit."

This.

I've read this entire thread from start to finish, a feat that took me approximately 4 days, so I haven't been involved in this discussion. But I'd like to say just a few things--one, that tkchrist needs to chill the fuck out since his rabid foaming-at-the-mouth is only turning people off. I can only imagine what it's like to talk politicis with you in real life, dude. Tone it down so you can actually get your message across.

Also, can I just say, and this is maybe slightly offensive or even potentially out-of-line but it has to be said--just ignore Konolia. Being a long-time member of the site doesn't mean you have free reign to spout off a lot, an incredible amount of bullshit à la the finest troll and get away with it because we know you. That's ridiculous. Konolia, as has been pointed out by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing et al, is willfully ignorant. She does not see the absolute irony in everything that comes out of her mouth, nor the funniest thing of all--the fact that her 'faith' is an utter crock. I have only heard someone misrepresent themself as a Christian more fully on Fox News or a similar fundamentalist television program. News Flash: Claiming to be righteous because of one issue, the issue of anti-choice, does not a Christian make. There are some other qualities involved that are arguably more important, you know, like being a kind and decent human being who cares about his/her fellow brothers and sisters.

In any event, this thread inspired me to donate $250 to Obama's campaign, which puts me up at $350 total since before the primaries started. I've also e-mailed the DNC about volunteering.
posted by nonmerci at 10:16 AM on September 11, 2008 [5 favorites]

I've read this entire thread from start to finish

Wait, it's finished?
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 10:24 AM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Jesus fucking Christ, I can't believe that people are AGAIN trying to decide a major race based on the likeability of candidates

I don't think this is exactly right.

If it were likability, Obama would win hands down. He's eminently likable. In fact, the Republicans have attacked him for being "too" likable.

Meanwhile, Sarah Palin? She's the nasty neighbor who constantly says snide, hurtful things in a pleasant voice, dripping with sarcasm. Is there anyone who really likes people like that?

No, "likability" is not the driving force here. The driving force is something entirely different. Perhaps konolia could enlighten you on it, but here's a hint: It starts with a "c" and rhymes with "vulture wars".
posted by Flunkie at 10:41 AM on September 11, 2008

Wait, it's finished?

Not on my watch.

tkchrist's comments are certainly strong worded, but he's totally correct. People voting for the Republican party in this election have to be either a) total morons or b) rich ass old white dudes. If you aren't a rich ass old white dude, what's the republican party bringing to the table?

I WILL NOT BEND!!!1!
posted by chunking express at 10:44 AM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

Under Palin, Wasilla charged rape victims for exam.

Is this common in the US?
posted by chunking express at 10:48 AM on September 11, 2008

I'm sure the Palin interview will be filled with softball questions, pictures of puppies (no kitties, since she's afraid of them according to Paul Krugman) and flattering lighting.

If she were serious, she'd choose Terri Gross for that interview. If she's heard of her.
posted by QIbHom at 10:49 AM on September 11, 2008

It starts with a "c" and rhymes with "vulture wars".

Core Wars? The Republicans have gotten so paleo they are playing Core Wars?
posted by QIbHom at 10:52 AM on September 11, 2008

Under Palin, Wasilla charged rape victims for exam.

Is this common in the US?

Not yet. McCain/Palin '08!
posted by Flunkie at 10:56 AM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

McCain finally answers some questions -- or tries to answer some questions. He's terrible.

"Watch McCain about a minute and a half into the tape, when he's asked what National Security credentials Sarah Palin has. He replies 'energy.' The reporter goes, no, I asked you about national security. McCain then says that Alaska is close to Russia. They're amazing.

Watch this interview of John McCain on WCSH in Portland, Maine. McCain is clueless. Clueless about his v.p. No wonder the McCain campaign doesn't want McCain answering questions. He can't.

Nice work by Rob Caldwell. The McCain campaign thinks the local reporters will only throw softballs. Actually, it's the national reporters, like ABC's Charlie Gibson, who throw the softballs."

posted by ericb at 10:57 AM on September 11, 2008 [6 favorites]

The media has fallen down on the job. ABC and Charles Gibson are doing a celebrity-style interview of a candidate for the second highest office in the land! It's absurd and immoral. Gibson and ABC should be ashamed.
posted by cell divide at 11:00 AM on September 11, 2008

Did he use his Boston accent? Because that would be hilarious.

And then those English fuckers passed the Stamp Act, an' it was WICKED retarded.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:04 AM on September 11, 2008 [8 favorites]

Not that they'll ask her about it, but I know I'm going to be annoyed by the nonchalantness of her book banning inquisition response. I know she's going to laugh it off like "ha ha ha, I was just asking because my constituents approached me about it. I love books. I taught my son how to read and my daughters, and when you see them first start to learn to read blah blah bleeaaargh." And the interviewer will have no substantive questions and no serious inquiries to challenge that nonsense.

It's utterly ridiculous that someone that has a pretty fair or at lease not-insignificant chance to be president in the next year or two only has to participate in one single national debate. There should be days and days of debate and discussion.

Honestly, I went through debate, interview and inquisition getting a lateral promotion 10 years ago for a job that didn't even require a college degree. This is insane.
posted by cashman at 11:07 AM on September 11, 2008 [5 favorites]

Thanks XQUZYPHYR. The article mentioned it was abnormal for Alaska, but I wasn't sure if they were just trying to spin things, and it was something that happened elsewhere.
And yeah, that shit is ridiculous.

There is almost TOO much to mock Palin about.
posted by chunking express at 11:12 AM on September 11, 2008

My bad. I should have previewed. What ericb posted, that McCain interview - that's what's insane. My god. McCain actually repeated that "Alaska is close to Russia! That means foreign policy experience!" line. No freaking way.
posted by cashman at 11:21 AM on September 11, 2008

You know who pissed me off last night? Chris Matthews. He went on a tirade about how stupid it was to be talking about lipstick on a pig, moaning about how he'd like to talk about the issues instead. Hey, Chris, it's your fucking show. You decide what to talk about. Even talking about how stupid it is is a victory for McCain.

It was like a dude cheating on his wife, moaning the whole time about how dirty it is.
posted by Bookhouse at 11:31 AM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

Honestly, I went through debate, interview and inquisition getting a lateral promotion 10 years ago for a job that didn't even require a college degree.

Of course, the job that she is asking us to give her also does not require a college degree.

I'm guessing that 2024 is the over/under for when the Republican Party will act upon the fact that it also doesn't require a GED.
posted by Flunkie at 11:37 AM on September 11, 2008

It was like a dude cheating on his wife, moaning the whole time about how dirty it is.

TELL ME MORE ABOUT IT!
posted by cashman at 11:43 AM on September 11, 2008

Also in that WCSH McCain interview, at 4:20 John McCain speaking about Sarah Palin states, "She knows more about energy than probably anyone else in the United States of America."

What!?!?! I must have overlooked her articles in the various energy resource engineering journals, her work at the DOE on energy policy, or perhaps there was a Nobel Prize in physics that I am not aware of.
posted by gruchall at 11:45 AM on September 11, 2008 [6 favorites]

Petraeus: No Victory in Iraq

The outgoing commander of US troops in Iraq, Gen David Petraeus, has said that he will never declare victory there.

In a BBC interview, Gen Petraeus said that recent security gains were "not irreversible" and that the US still faced a "long struggle".
posted by Rumple at 11:49 AM on September 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

Troopergate: Everything You Need to Know
posted by jonp72 at 11:55 AM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

charging victims for rape kits

The Alaska Legislature actually passed a bill specifically banning the practice. It was signed by her former Democratic governor Tony Knowles in 2000. According to this article, Wasilla was the only city charging victims. The police chief appointed by Palin complained that "the new law will cost the Wasilla Police Department approximately $5,000 to $14,000 a year to collect evidence for sexual assault cases."
posted by msalt at 12:01 PM on September 11, 2008

Here's a snapshot of the top entries in Memeorandum's RSS feed as they appear on Electicker:

Time: Sarah Palin's Myth of America (more)

MSNBC: Obama's woes have nothing to do with 'lipstick' (more)

Top of the Ticket: Canadian doctor warns Sarah Palin's decision to have Down baby ... (more)

Politico: Biden bows to Clinton (more)

WSJ: Obama Readjusts to Defuse Palin Phenomenon (more)

WSJ: Obama Can't Win Against Palin (more)

Yahoo! News: GOP foreign policy experts cool on Palin (more)

For those playing along at home, that's five "Palin"s, three "Obama"s, "Biden" and "Clinton" one each, and one conspicuous absence.
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 12:07 PM on September 11, 2008 [7 favorites]

Also in that WCSH McCain interview, at 4:20 John McCain speaking about Sarah Palin states, "She knows more about energy than probably anyone else in the United States of America."

What!?!?! I must have overlooked her articles in the various energy resource engineering journals, her work at the DOE on energy policy, or perhaps there was a Nobel Prize in physics that I am not aware of.

Well, you see, she lives in Alaska. So obviously she knows more than anyone else about this. Why do you hate America?
posted by Flunkie at 12:07 PM on September 11, 2008

So even though I should know better than to take the resident concern troll's bait, that Rebecca Johnson article keeps bugging me. Here's the thing. Let's agree that much of the rumor-mongering and speculation about Palin has been reprehensible, just as the smears about Barack Obama's religion and family history and patriotism and many many other things have been reprehensible.

The bottom line is still whether or not Palin is qualified for the job. Given the President and Vice President's role in the world, the fact that there is little evidence of education or experience or even interest about much outside of her state, never mind the rest of the world, it seems like a pretty tough sell to me.

But one thing we do know is that she certainly has experience with organizations (running a state government) and managing huge amounts of money (state budgets, oil company windfall taxes, earmarks.) So it seems to me perfectly reasonable to suggest that she's more qualified to run Ms Johnson's husband's hedge fund than to be Vice President. Any yet, somehow I suspect that Ms Johnson would have trouble sleeping at night taking that kind of gamble with her upper-class east-coast-liberal lifestyle. Because, unlike trusting her with the country, that would be, you know, crazy.

And that's why I find this starry-eyed you-go-girl brand of feminism just bizarre.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 12:28 PM on September 11, 2008 [6 favorites]

And that's why I find this starry-eyed you-go-girl brand of feminism just bizarre.

Well your first problem is calling it feminism.
posted by chunking express at 12:32 PM on September 11, 2008 [4 favorites]

Well your first problem is calling it feminism.

What should we call it, Womanism?
posted by cell divide at 12:42 PM on September 11, 2008

Well your first problem is calling it feminism.

What should we call it, Womanism?

My vote's for Palinism. The woman's a goddamned illogical doctrine all her own.
posted by shiu mai baby at 12:50 PM on September 11, 2008 [10 favorites]

A different take on the Bridge to Nowhere.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:28 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

As a realist, what criminal charges do you believe should be placed against murderers?
posted by Flunkie at 1:29 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

I wish we could get past seeing each other as wackos. But I am a realist.

No. You are a wacko.

I mean that with all possible respect, honestly. The things you believe are impossible for me to process with any grounding in the reality that I understand. The only conclusion I can come to is that you are, indeed, a wacko. It's not a point of view about an objective thing where I see it one way and you see it another. You see a completely different thing. Not only can't I get past that, I don't want to. I don't want to think of hateful, loathsome nonsense as anything but the work of wackos.

I can only assume you feel the same about me. Check and mate. We're all fucked.
posted by dirtdirt at 1:31 PM on September 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

I don't think you're a wacko, konolia. I just think it is impossible to debate with you, because of your own intellectual dishonesty (as others have pointed out numerously in this thread). I'm also personally offended by your self-righteousness for, as far as I'm concerned, your political views make you a hypocrite.

I fail to see how recognizing this is 'out-of-touch'.
posted by nonmerci at 1:32 PM on September 11, 2008 [4 favorites]

Neither side seems willing to concede that the other has real reasons for believing as they do and that it is possible that a human can see things differently and not be a freak or a moron or...*shudder* ...not be WRONG.

So you concede that people in favor of, say, abortion rights or gay marriage might have real reasons for believing as they do and not be wrong?
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 1:33 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

The rape kit charges seem to be getting some traction; witness this very defensive articleby Jim Geraghty in the National Review.
posted by msalt at 1:34 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

(I'm just curious if that was more than empty words.)
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 1:34 PM on September 11, 2008

Former GOP senator calls Palin a 'cocky wacko'

"Former Rhode Island Republican Sen. Lincoln Chafee has called vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin a 'cocky wacko' and said her selection as John McCain's running mate has energized supporters of Democrat Barack Obama.

...'They've just thrown this firestorm, this tornado, into the whole presidential election,' Chafee said in response to an audience member's question about whether the Obama campaign should worry about Palin's presence in the race.

He said her speech at the Republican National Convention had the unintended effect of energizing Democrats and Obama supporters.

'People were coming into my office, phone calls were flooding in, e-mails were coming in, "I just sent money to Obama, I couldn't sleep last night" — from the left. To see this cocky wacko up there,' Chafee said to laughter.

Chafee said in an interview Thursday that he found much of Palin's convention speech objectionable, particularly her 'mocking' assertion that Obama was overly concerned with al-Qaida terrorists getting read their rights.

That comment 'got to the core of everything wrong with the last eight years,' he said."

posted by ericb at 1:54 PM on September 11, 2008 [4 favorites]

konolia, I agree with what you say about people not walking in their opponents' shoes. I think it's actually one of the biggest weaknesses of the Left, generally. Aside from being a better person, it simply makes one a better fighter to understand your enemy.

I do wonder this: are you proud of Republican presidential campaigning? There's a pretty widespread (and I think, very fair) perception that Republican campaigns are masters of dirty tricks and emotionally manipulative, even blatantly lying campaign attacks. Much more than Democrats. (And of course I'm not talking about bloggers or radio shock jocks, but the campaigns themselves.)
posted by msalt at 1:55 PM on September 11, 2008

AP: Number-crunching pollster sees decisive Obama win

"A pollster whose mathematical model has correctly predicted every winner of the White House popular vote since 1988 is banking on a decisive victory for Democrat Barack Obama in November.

Emory University political scientist Alan Abramowitz said Wednesday that according to his 'time for change' model, Obama would secure 54.3 percent of the popular vote against 45.7 percent for Republican John McCain.

That margin would virtually guarantee a crushing victory for the Democrat in the state-by-state electoral college that actually selects the next president, Abramowitz said."

posted by ericb at 1:57 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

"For those of you on this thread who say insulting and demeaning things regarding those who do not share your political views...I feel duty bound to point out to you that when I am among those people (say, at a Republican meeting) they feel that you are all equally out of touch, illogical, etc. etc."

Fallacy of false equivalence. See, that's one of those reasons that evidence and reason-based debating are important: we can quantify your wrongness. We can quantify that the social policies you pursue lead to more abortions, not fewer. That they lead to more loss of life in war, not less. That they lead to more teens pregnant, not fewer. They, and you, are wrong. Which doesn't make you evil, per se, or mean that I couldn't enjoy a beer with you or a bbq. Just that your ideas for running our country will make our country worse than it was prior.

My father thinks that my mother is a terrible driver. It takes her forever to get anywhere; when she finds a route, she'll never look for a faster one; she's regularly passed by folks of all stripes on the road. But while my father gets to destinations faster, and certainly drives more, he's had many more accidents and tickets. While my father and my mother may equally believe the other to be terrible drivers, empirically, my father is wrong.
posted by klangklangston at 2:03 PM on September 11, 2008 [22 favorites]

More reaction (from CBS News) on McCain's interview with Rob Caldwell of WCSH in Portland, Maine.

“I'm afraid this is just embarrassingly incoherent. First, the notion that Palin's proximity to Russia counts as national security experience continues to be unusually stupid, even for McCain.

Second, ‘Energy’ is not a response to the question, ‘What experience does she have in the field of national security?’

And third, to insist, publicly and on the record, that Sarah Palin ‘knows more about energy than probably anyone else in the United States of America’ is, quite literally, laughable. We are, after all, talking about a politician who isn't sure about the human impact on global warming, and hasn't demonstrated any real expertise on the issue. Ever.

As Yglesias recently noted, ‘Give Sarah Palin this much -- her understanding of the geopolitics of energy is every bit as daft as that of much more seasoned conservative pseudo-experts. She can spin out outlandish and ultimately nonsensical scenarios about Iran (or Venezuela) deploying the mythical 'oil weapon' and she, too, can ignore the fundamentally global nature of hydrocarbon markets by prattling about 'energy independence.'‘

Stepping back, it's striking that McCain still, even now, can't answer obvious questions about his own running mate. Caldwell's question was direct, but hardly an unexpected curveball. Indeed, the obvious answer for McCain is that Palin doesn't have a background in national security, but neither do most governors who seek national office, but he's confident in her judgment, her ability to learn quickly, etc.

But, no. Asked an obvious question, McCain offers a confused response that doesn't make any sense.

Maybe the next time the Republican handlers prep Palin on how to answer questions; McCain should sit in and take a few notes.”

posted by ericb at 2:04 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

Friends,

You've surely seen the shameful attacks Senator Obama and his liberal allies have launched against our vice presidential nominee, Governor Sarah Palin.

Even before our national convention, the Obama campaign dispatched what The Wall Street Journal called a "mini-army of 30 lawyers, investigators and opposition researchers" to Alaska to dig up dirt for their personal attacks on Governor Palin and her family. FactCheck.org has called the attacks on Governor Palin, "completely false" and "misleading." However, the Obama Democrats continue to launch these attacks, hoping you'll never find out the truth.

These misleading, offensive attacks must be stopped. That's why we're asking you to follow this link immediately to give any amount you can afford - whether it's $25 or $250 - to McCain-Palin Victory 2008, a joint committee we have formed to ensure we can respond to these shameful attacks and elect our reform ticket from top to bottom on Election Day.

We are rapidly responding to the Obama Democrats' attacks on Governor Palin and you can help by following this link right now to give $25, $50, $100, $250 or more to McCain-Palin Victory 2008.

Your support is critical to our Party's effort in exposing these false attacks. Thank you.

Sincerely,
The McCain-Palin Victory 2008 Team

P.S. If you are offended by the outrageous attacks on Governor Sarah Palin from the Obama campaign and their liberal allies, we urge you to follow this link immediately. The McCain-Palin Victory 2008 committee is working day and night to elect our reform ticket and reject these false attacks. Please show your support with a generous donation. Thank you.

Because the McCain-Palin Campaign is participating in the presidential public funding system, it may not receive contributions for the any candidate's election. However, federal law allows the McCain-Palin Campaign's Compliance Fund to defray legal and accounting compliance costs and preserve the Campaign's public grant for media, mail, phones, and get-out-the-vote programs. Contributions to McCain-Palin Victory 2008 will go to the Compliance Fund, and to participating party committees for Victory 2008 programs.

(FYI, because I doubt too many others of you get these emails.)
posted by caddis at 2:14 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

The thread so far, in word cloud format
posted by found missing at 2:14 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

I thought the real name calling started after the 5000th comment.
posted by josher71 at 2:15 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

I do wonder this: are you proud of Republican presidential campaigning?

No, I'm not. But neither side is pure as the driven snow. Not on the national level, not on the state level, not on the local level.

Some of you may remember that four years ago my own husband ran for office. The Democratic party (not his opponent-she herself ran a clean campaign as far as I could tell) sent out really misleading mailers about my husband. They were so ludicrous that all I could do was laugh. Anyone who knew him would have laughed as well-and did.

Being on the periphery of campaigns both here and in Florida taught me that the last thing I should ever use to determine who to vote for was ads or mailers. Period.

I look at platforms. I assume that attack ads have a grain of truth sometimes. But usually truth taken so far out of context it might as well be a lie.

Politics is a dirty dirty business. I suspect that quite a bit on this thread that has been quoted for truth will be shown -if looked at carefully-to be either half truth or, in the case of baby Trig-a lie on such a grand scale that otherwise normal and rational people fell for it.
posted by konolia at 2:22 PM on September 11, 2008

Speaking of factcheck.org…

A McCain-Palin ad has FactCheck.org calling Obama's attacks on Palin "completely false" and "misleading." That's what we said, but it wasn't about Obama.

Our article criticized anonymous e-mail falsehoods and bogus claims about Palin posted around the Internet. We have no evidence that any of the claims we found to be false came from the Obama campaign.

The McCain-Palin ad also twists a quote from a Wall Street Journal columnist. He said the Obama camp had sent a team to Alaska to "dig into her record and background." The ad quotes the WSJ as saying the team was sent to "dig dirt."

Update, Sept. 10: Furthermore, the Obama campaign insists that no researchers have been sent to Alaska and that the Journal owes them a correction.

posted by designbot at 2:24 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

This post over at The Field has calmed my nerves. The comments are pretty good as well, which I always consider a shock at non-Mefi sites (and sometimes here, as well).
posted by Bookhouse at 2:33 PM on September 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

The thread so far, in word cloud format

It looks like it's saying if we safely 'think', we the people can use this 'like' of Palin to activate our weapon, and with Obama as our ammo, hit our target. Don't use McCain to find where to aim, he's off balance and would guide us right into the ground in front of us. And at the tip of the barrel as a guide, is our vote. That's pretty neat.
posted by cashman at 2:34 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Here's the mefi word cloud.

No comment on wordle noticing we use "like" a lot again.
posted by cortex at 2:37 PM on September 11, 2008

If you want to know more about Palin's positions, don't try votesmart.
posted by cell divide at 2:38 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

Watch McCain about a minute and a half into the tape, when he's asked what National Security credentials Sarah Palin has. He replies 'energy.' The reporter goes, no, I asked you about national security. McCain then says that Alaska is close to Russia. They're amazing.

In the last decade we've finally reached the point in this country where one political party is willing to put into the highest office a gormless man who is willing to be told what to do by his smarter party colleagues in all matters requiring any intelligence in return for the opportunity to hold the office. I am so ashamed.
posted by Mental Wimp at 2:45 PM on September 11, 2008 [5 favorites]

Charts are good. There should be more charts.

Here’s a good one. Offshore drilling? The thing that McCain and the nations’s foremost energy expert are telling us will bring our salvation and indedpendence, save us from foreign oil?

It looks a little something like this.
posted by neroli at 2:56 PM on September 11, 2008 [8 favorites]

Interview with Palin here.

Excerpt:

GIBSON: You said recently, in your old church, "Our national leaders are sending U.S. soldiers on a task that is from God." Are we fighting a holy war?

PALIN: You know, I don't know if that was my exact quote.

GIBSON: Exact words.

PALIN: But the reference there is a repeat of Abraham Lincoln's words when he said -- first, he suggested never presume to know what God's will is, and I would never presume to know God's will or to speak God's words.

But what Abraham Lincoln had said, and that's a repeat in my comments, was let us not pray that God is on our side in a war or any other time, but let us pray that we are on God's side.

That's what that comment was all about, Charlie.

Now, someone who supports Palin explain to me how this non sequitur explains anything?
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:20 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Awesome chart. Of those ~10mbl/day, about 2.5 mbl/day comes from Canada who is the US' largets supplier of "foreign" oil. #2 on the list of American oil suppliers is... Mexico! so 40% of "foreign" oil is actually from the two countries that are as friendly as it gets with the US. I mean, you could actually invade Canada & Mexico! So this whole "dependency on foreign oil" thing is really about 6mbl/day out of 16 mbl/day which is a lot, but less than the fear-mongers would have you believe. $5 or $6 gas would scratch a lot of that 6mbl/day consumption pretty fast.
posted by GuyZero at 3:21 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

You need to remember that oil is a fungible asset. It's less important where you precisely get it from, as it is who is producing the oil. No matter what, you're always somewhat dependent on foreign oil because oil is going to flow to who can pay for it.
posted by cell divide at 3:35 PM on September 11, 2008

unusually stupid, even for McCain

I'm not a fan, but I'd say "especially" for McCain. He wasn't always this foolhardy. It's as if he's lost his mind, sold his soul to Rove and co., [insert cliche]...

Next we'll be hearing that those crazy rumors about Kim Jong-Il's death, using lookalikes as substitutes, were actually about him.
posted by skyper at 3:35 PM on September 11, 2008

For those of you on this thread who say insulting and demeaning things regarding those who do not share your political views...I feel duty bound to point out to you that when I am among those people (say, at a Republican meeting) they feel that you are all equally out of touch, illogical, etc. etc.

Beyond the pragmatic concerns about getting a not-completely-awful person elected, I could not care less how they feel. The difference between them and you - and me, is that I'm not interested in controlling their lives and limiting their rights using the power of the state. I don't care what wacky things people believe, but I have no tolerance for having those beliefs used to control my life.

All the time, konolia, you get called out for not answering the direct questions people here pose to you. You are content to constantly repeat that it's ok to oppress others, because your Good Book says so. And yet you can't even interpret it correctly! So forgive me if I don't give your views much credence.

The McCain-Palin Victory 2008 committee is working day and night to elect our reform ticket ...

This word reform, I do not think it means what they think it means. Unless they mean "re-form," like when the Thing changes from one form to another.
posted by me & my monkey at 3:42 PM on September 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

PALIN: But the reference there is a repeat of Abraham Lincoln's words when he said -- first, he suggested never presume to know what God's will is, and I would never presume to know God's will or to speak God's words.

"God's will has to be done in unifying people and companies to get that gas line built, so pray for that," she said.

posted by bmarkey at 3:42 PM on September 11, 2008

Now, someone who supports Palin explain to me how this non sequitur explains anything?

I am far from a Palin supporter, but this is hardly a non sequitur. In fact, Charlie Gibson is distorting her quote in that interview. The quote in context is:

"Pray for our military men and women who are striving to do what is right. Also, for this country, that our leaders, our national leaders, are sending them out on a task that is from God. That's what we have to make sure that we're praying for, that there is a plan and that that plan is God's plan."

There is a big difference between praying that we are doing God's will, and asserting that we are doing God's will (which, incidentally, is pretty much what she does with regard to the gas line). In context, her statement is not much different from the Lincoln quote she mentions.
posted by designbot at 3:46 PM on September 11, 2008 [5 favorites]

This word reform, I do not think it means what they think it means.

I suspect they were using it in the Preston Manning sense.
posted by QIbHom at 4:17 PM on September 11, 2008

Tell me about it, I mean with Brady out and all, this could be Manning's year.
posted by found missing at 4:22 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

"No, I'm not. But neither side is pure as the driven snow. Not on the national level, not on the state level, not on the local level."

God, I wish there was a buzzer that would force you to rewrite your comments any time there was a fallacy in them. Like here, bzzzt! Tu quoque!
posted by klangklangston at 4:29 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

"the new law will cost the Wasilla Police Department approximately $5,000 to $14,000 a year to collect evidence for sexual assault cases."

There seems to be a lot of rape in that small town. Twenty-odd rapes a year in a town with 1500 women?
posted by five fresh fish at 4:41 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

konolia: Neither side seems willing to concede that the other has real reasons for believing as they do and that it is possible that a human can see things differently and not be a freak or a moron or...*shudder* ...not be WRONG.

I wish we could get past seeing each other as wackos. But I am a realist.

Your "real reasons" on the abortion issue come down to your faith that everybody has a moral imperative to be your kind of Christian (as demonstrated by your answer from the Before Roe Vs Wade thread re whether God would want us to attempt to create Heaven on Earth, when doing so increases the number of people suffering):

"this world IS suffering. The key is suffering is not meant to be eternal.
But I agree that utopia is impossible -in our own strength.
We aren't supposed to be depending on our own strength."

ie, if we all convert to, believe in, place all-powerful, all-consuming faith in, the strength of the God in whom you place your own faith, He will make it so the deaths and other evils that result from making abortion illegal don't materialize, as they have in countries where abortion was made illegal.

Your "real reasons" are faith, faith, and faith, at the expense of far more dead girls and women than there would be under legal abortion, and having gained no decrease in the abortion rate (how is this compatible with your "sanctity of human life" position?). Your reasons exacerbate this world's suffering (granted, that to you, this world is much lower priority than the next). Can you really not see why many of us, far from finding your faith attractive, instead turn away in revulsion?
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 4:41 PM on September 11, 2008 [6 favorites]

I find it interesting that Palin conducted government business from a Yahoo! account. And, although I know nothing about it, I wonder how hard it is for every hacker in the world to crack her account.
posted by Bookhouse at 4:50 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z75QSExE0jU
posted by cell divide at 5:02 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

OH HOLY FUCK.

GIBSON: And under the NATO treaty, wouldn't we then have to go to war if Russia went into Georgia?

PALIN: Perhaps so. I mean, that is the agreement when you are a NATO ally, is if another country is attacked, you're going to be expected to be called upon and help.

This woman's fine with going to war with Russia. This is insane. This can't actually be happening. It's like a crappy Tom Clancy novel.
posted by EarBucket at 5:10 PM on September 11, 2008 [4 favorites]

A Yahoo! account? Man, the jokes, they write themselves.

Seriously, doesn't the state have a policy about using outside e-mail accounts for conducting state business?
posted by QIbHom at 5:15 PM on September 11, 2008

when you are a NATO ally

I guess she means "NATO member." Unless this is the Palin Doctrine.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 5:17 PM on September 11, 2008

I wonder why people didn't start ignoring konolia when she said, way way up there somewhere, that she would prefer living in a country where abortion was illegal but more women and "babies" die than in a country where abortion is legal but fewer women and "babies" die

How about cutting and pasting what I actually said -which was in response to a theoretical Sophies's choice type question, I might add?

And she's never ever explained how, if abortion is murder, women who abort aren't murderers who should be subject to the full force and effect of the criminal justice system, charged and tried as murderers, and sentenced to a lifetime in prison or even executed. If it's murder, it's deliberate and premeditated.

People who shoot other adults don't always get a lifetime in prison or executed. I am more interested in saving babies than punishing women. Yes, I suppose they would deserve a penalty -but I think they have already paid a pretty high price. A dead child. If that is inconsistent, fine. I can live with that.

at the expense of far more dead girls and women than there would be under legal abortion, and having gained no decrease in the abortion rate (how is this compatible with your "sanctity of human life" position

Okay, fair question and here is my answer:

I believe in personal responsibility. If I were pregnant, and I stuck a coathanger up myself to try to self abort, is that not my own responsibility? Shouldn't I KNOW that I was endangering my life? If I went to a backalley butcher for an illegal abortion, wouldn't I KNOW I was breaking a law? That what I was doing had real personal risk?

I do not see women as helpless brainless creatures. I think it is sad and tragic that a woman would die from a botched abortion, but I think it is sad, tragic and stupid that she would put herself into that situation which at best would still be fatal to the unborn infant.

I think killing unborn children is wrong, evil, detestable and to be avoided unless the mother would die (for example, ectopic pregnancy) if the pregnancy were ended.

I would be very sorry to hear of anyone dying from a do it yourself abortion, but that does not make it right to legalize killing unborn babies. Nope.

No one here wants to hear about sin. But the truth is, people who go their own way rather than God's will have to deal with the natural consequenses of their own actions. I am quite aware that most of you have no desire to have anyone other than yourselves to be lord over your lives. I can think of nothing sadder. But He allows you that. He also leaves you to deal with the resulting messes.
posted by konolia at 5:19 PM on September 11, 2008

konolia REFUSES TO BEND on the sanctity of life: Truth to tell, though I would rather be bombed than grow up under the Taliban. But better to grow up, and to grow up free.

konolia REFUSES TO BEND on abortion=murder: as far as I can tell any criminal penalties would be directed at abortion providers, not the pregnant women.

konolia, you are a BLIND GUIDE. You strain out gnats and swallow camels.
posted by dogrose at 5:24 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

Palin conducted government business from a Yahoo! account.

gov.sarah@yahoo.com

The jokes just write themselves. If someone wrote a book a year ago, speculating that someone like Palin would be running for the Vice Presidency, it would have been dismissed as ludicrous.
posted by me & my monkey at 5:25 PM on September 11, 2008

I should point out that it's not terribly surprising that Palin is ignorant on matters of foreign policy--she's a state governor, and being the governor of Alaska has very little to do (proximity to Russia notwithstanding) with foreign policy. But the same ignorance that's understandable in a state-level official is absolutely inexcusable in someone who could be running the country in a few months.

If John McCain thinks she's qualified to be vice president, he's mentally unfit to be president. If he doesn't think she's qualified, he's morally unfit.
posted by EarBucket at 5:27 PM on September 11, 2008 [9 favorites]

Currently, however, this is not common. In fact, it's actually federal law now that rape kits must either be free or compensation must be available to those with economic need.

It's one of the regulations in the Violence Against Women Act, written by Joe Biden.

McCain Opposed Biden's Legislation to Stop Charging Rape Victims for Sexual Assault Exams.
posted by ericb at 5:29 PM on September 11, 2008 [5 favorites]

No one here wants to hear about sin. But the truth is, people who go their own way rather than God's will have to deal with the natural consequenses of their own actions.

That may be your "truth," but it's sure not mine.

I am quite aware that most of you have no desire to have anyone other than yourselves to be lord over your lives. I can think of nothing sadder. But He allows you that.

If He allows it, why won't you? That's all anyone's asking for.
posted by me & my monkey at 5:31 PM on September 11, 2008 [17 favorites]

So she Has no idea what the bush doctrine is

What's funny is watching Gibson Squirm as she fails to answer the question.
posted by delmoi at 5:36 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

This woman's fine with going to war with Russia. This is insane.

Like I Said, Four More Years of Bush Would Be Vastly Preferable

"Wow, going to war with Russia might be necessary if Russia invades another one of the former states of the Soviet Union. So says Sarah Palin. War with Russia over Armenia? If Russia and Georgia go at it again? War between the US and Russia sure would be a positive development for the US. And sort of shows the consequences of taking a freshman governor with no experience in foreign policy and giving her a ten day crash course with Randy Scheunemann and the rest of John McCain's neocon brain trust that got booted from the Bush inner circle for being too nutty."

Let's not forget. Russia is Palin's strong suit. She lives in a state closest to that country. And she got a passport in 2007 and visited Alaskan National Guard members in Kuwait and Germany ... with a fueling stop in Ireland! Ultimately qualified!
posted by ericb at 5:37 PM on September 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

Favoriting Mental Wimp for 'gormless'. Can I add 'shambolic'?
posted by lukemeister at 5:40 PM on September 11, 2008

I read that Wordle just like -

McCain Obama Palin think just like people

Aside from that, we're liveblogging the Presidential Forum on Service on PoliticalFilter -- and you are all invited!!

*hands out party hats*
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 5:42 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Petraeus contradicts Palin on Iraq.

Fuck, what does General David Petraeus, Commanding General, Multi-National Force - Iraq know about Iraq?

My son, Track, is shipping out (no, not because he was given an choice "jail or serve in the military" for drug offenses -- that's only rumor) to Iraq this week. I'm a Mom of five. What I say goes. Get it?
posted by ericb at 5:44 PM on September 11, 2008

Palin Stumped On The Bush Doctine, Believes It Is President’s ‘Worldview’
posted by ericb at 5:45 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

This article makes my blood boil. It makes me hope that some disenfranchised voter decides to blow a shitload of these ~~vote challengers~~ evil fuckers away.
posted by schyler523 at 5:46 PM on September 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

Palin conducted government business from a Yahoo! account.

Fortunately, the Alaska nuclear codes are on her secure Yahoo! Geocities page.
posted by lukemeister at 5:54 PM on September 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

"Oh, God, no."
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 5:54 PM on September 11, 2008

I can see how it could be somewhat entertaining to play poke-the-konolia and see what pops out.

Hint: not much.
posted by ericb at 6:00 PM on September 11, 2008

So she Has no idea what the bush doctrine is

Watching that- She is a complete and utter fraud.
posted by cashman at 6:03 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

found missing, I <3 that word cloud. I want to make it a poster.
posted by lysdexic at 6:06 PM on September 11, 2008

Alaska is even closer to Canada than to Russia, despite having formerly been part of the Russian Empire.

Therefore, she probably is a Preston Manning Reform type. You see, the AIP is actually just a front for the Reform Party. Alberta wants Alaska so they'll have control over most of the oil in North America.

Steven Harper called elections in Canada in order to distract Dion so he wouldn't catch on to the evil plan.

Cheney is going along with this because Alberta has promised Blackwell the contract to "guard" Alaska and KBR gets the governing contract.

It is all so clear now...
posted by QIbHom at 6:08 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm not able to control+F to search this thread. Is anybody else having that issue?
posted by cashman at 6:19 PM on September 11, 2008

But, Charlie, again, we've got to remember what the desire is in this nation at this time. It is for no more politics as usual and somebody's big, fat resume maybe that shows decades and decades in that Washington establishment, where, yes, they've had opportunities to meet heads of state ... these last couple of weeks ... it has been overwhelming to me that confirmation of the message that Americans are getting sick and tired of that self-dealing and kind of that closed door, good old boy network that has been the Washington elite.

So, wait, is she McCain's running mate or Obama's?
posted by MegoSteve at 6:28 PM on September 11, 2008

I just noticed that 'perhaps' answer on war with Russia. What the fuck man, she really has no idea what's going on in the world. I can't even imagine George Bush in 2000 answering a question like that!

I hate to get all Godwin, but have you noticed how much the Republicans have in common with the Nazis? They keep repeating lies until the lies are accepted as truth.

Interesting historical note: Goebbels coined the term "the big lie" to refer to what he claimed the jews were doing, making a lie so huge that you'd have to believe it.

For those of you on this thread who say insulting and demeaning things regarding those who do not share your political views...I feel duty bound to point out to you that when I am among those people (say, at a Republican meeting) they feel that you are all equally out of touch, illogical, etc. etc. -- konolia

It all depends on the premises. If you take as a premise that abortion is wrong, then of course liberals seem crazy. On the other hand if you think torture is wrong, conservatives seem crazy. Of course, abortion isn't wrong and torture is. On the other hand, when people hold contradictory views, it's really difficult to argue with them, because

I'm not able to control+F to search this thread. Is anybody else having that issue?

Nope.
posted by delmoi at 6:30 PM on September 11, 2008

John McCain Yachting it up with Italian Conmen and his lobbyists
posted by delmoi at 6:35 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Hey you guys, I think konolia is just about to change her mind on abortion and admit she was wrong all along!!! YOU JUST HAVE TO KEEP PUSHING!!!

But if konolia and all of those trying to reason with her would kindly begin their comments with an * the rest of us who don't want to be bothered with this inane bickering can skip over this derail, OK? Just begin your comments with an * so we know to skip it.
posted by Daddy-O at 6:40 PM on September 11, 2008

you know, I'm always the one saying "this thing doesn't have legs" or "this line of attack won't work" -- and I do believe that the possible adultery thing from the 1990s, the stoner son, and a lot of other Palin-related stuff just won't cut it -- but I do think the "she'll charge you for your rape kit" thing can really be used against her, especially if Biden finds a good line at their debate. it's just indefensible, mean, mean shit that can really hurt her. it's easy, direct, gut-level: "if you get raped she'll charge you a thousand dollars for the rape kit, and she'll force you to have the rapists baby if he got you pregnant". not even voter Attila The Hun can agree with that shit; certainly not your average undecided independent you're trying to convince to vote for Obama. at least, you know, poor Mike Dukakis would have had your wife raped by Willie Horton but at least wouldn't have charged her the rape kit's price.
posted by matteo at 6:40 PM on September 11, 2008 [6 favorites]

No one here wants to hear about sin. But the truth is, people who go their own way rather than God's will have to deal with the natural consequenses of their own actions. I am quite aware that most of you have no desire to have anyone other than yourselves to be lord over your lives. I can think of nothing sadder. But He allows you that. He also leaves you to deal with the resulting messes.

No one here wants to hear about your personal version of sin. But the truth is, whether or not they obey God's will, people will have to deal with the consequences of their actions, "natural" or otherwise. I am quite aware that you, konolia, think that your Lord rules over all our lives. I can think of nothing sadder. But I'll allow you that, since it's none of my business. Please explain to me how my abortion isn't an acceptable way of dealing with the "resulting messes."

(Didn't you slag Obama for supposedly referring to an unexpected pregnancy as a punishment?)
posted by dogrose at 6:47 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

So ABC interviews the Republican candidate for Vice President of the United States in the 2008 election, and she waffles on what the "Bush doctrine" is. Now, how does one report this?

Palin agreed in principle to the "Bush doctrine," the idea that the United States has the right to preemptively strike those another country the U.S. think will attack first.

My comment about this? There is none.

*cries*
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 6:50 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

re: McCain on Follieri's yacht -- when it happened, I seem to understand, Follieri was perfectly respectable, his troubles started later, so it's not like McCain was hanging out on Al Capone's yacht. if the big scandal is that he hung out with a famous Hollywood actress and her boyfriend, it seems pretty weak to me. McCain's a millionaire, he doesn't pretend to live in a trailer eating Taco Bell, as the controversy over his 7 mansions or whatever demonstrated.
posted by matteo at 6:50 PM on September 11, 2008

It all depends on the premises.

Now on that we can agree.
posted by These Penises Are Alarmed at 6:51 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

So she Has no idea what the bush doctrine is

She sounds like an elementary school kid making up a book report on a book she hasn't read.
posted by kirkaracha at 6:52 PM on September 11, 2008 [11 favorites]

re: the Bush doctrine thing, I understand this is a non-starter with US voters, but I was indeed appalled to read that, at 44, and not destitute, Palin has nevertheless never thought it interesting to visit any country outside of her own in her entire life (the one exception is a brief political trip to Iraq); it just indicates, to me, an amazing lack of curiosity for a politician. in an era of reasonably cheap air travel, this is OK for someone who simply has other interests, but quite a monstrosity for someone who has seen fit to accept the nomination for Vice President of the US. I mean, seriously, how blinkered can one be?
posted by matteo at 6:58 PM on September 11, 2008 [6 favorites]

She sounds like an elementary school kid making up a book report on a book she hasn't read.

It's strangely reminiscent of this.
posted by Rumple at 6:59 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

What's striking to me in the Bush Doctrine exchange is that she doesn't seem to be familiar with the argument about preemptive attack. It wouldn't be particularly surprising if she agreed with the Bush administration that we have the right to attack another country if we think they may pose a threat to us in the future (although she doesn't seem to). But she doesn't seem to even be aware that it was a topic of discussion in this country five years ago.
posted by EarBucket at 7:05 PM on September 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

Those two weeks of prep time really paid off! Based on her strong performance I'm completely confident she'd do great in a crisis!
posted by kirkaracha at 7:05 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

People who shoot other adults don't always get a lifetime in prison or executed. I am more interested in saving babies than punishing women. Yes, I suppose they would deserve a penalty -but I think they have already paid a pretty high price. A dead child. If that is inconsistent, fine. I can live with that.

Well, it's good that you can live with it, because yes, it's inconsistent.

How about if a woman intentionally murders her newborn baby? Any criminal charges then, or is "a dead child" still "good enough" for you?

How about if she murders her three year old kid?

Her ten year old?

Her eighteen year old?

Her thirty year old?

In all of these cases, is the fact that she now has a dead child sufficient to absolve her of criminal charges? Or is there some point at which you would say, hey, maybe we should actually charge her with murder?

If the latter, when? What's that cutoff? And why?

If you're like most people, I'm guessing that that cutoff is "at birth or near full term", or something like that. Why is that?

Let's be clear here: You said you're a realist. A realist, when asked what criminal charges should be placed against a murderer, generally doesn't have a problem answering. The answer is "murder". Murderers should be charged with murder.

You're either not as much a realist as you claim, or you don't really believe that abortion is murder. Or both.
posted by Flunkie at 7:16 PM on September 11, 2008 [10 favorites]

This article makes my blood boil. It makes me hope that some disenfranchised voter decides to blow a shitload of these vote challengers evil fuckers away.

Remember those Iraqis with purple ink on their fingers when they finally got a chance to vote in free election? If the Republicans even think about disenfranchising anybody, there should be protests with dozens of people hoisting fingers covered with purple ink in the air. The Republicans will send thousands of Americans to die so that Iraqis can vote, but they won't let Americans vote at home? That's un-American!
posted by jonp72 at 7:22 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

It was also the day that Palin, the mother of five, attended a deployment ceremony for her oldest son, Track, an Army infantryman whose Stryker unit is being shipped off to Iraq later this month.

Hang on: didn't she make it a point to tell everyone at the RNC that her son was leaving for Iraq on September 11th?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 7:31 PM on September 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

konolia> People who shoot other adults don't always get a lifetime in prison or executed.

No, but it is the law of the land that people who commit murder and are caught are tried for murder if there's enough evidence. And if you believe that the law of this land should be to recognize life as beginning at conception, then a pregnant woman who gets an abortion has committed first degree murder.

Yes, I suppose they would deserve a penalty -- but I think they have already paid a pretty high price. A dead child.

And women who murder their newborn children -- or hire people to murder their newborn children -- are penalized by being charged with murder. No one airily dismisses their crime by saying that they've suffered enough by"losing" their child. Unless you believe that they should be let off scot-free as well.

I am more interested in saving babies than punishing women.

You don't think of fetuses -- or if you'd like, unborn children -- as babies, otherwise you would be in favor of punishing women who obtain abortions by charging them with first degree murder. This position of yours isn't a moral one, it is an attempt to evade the full moral repercussions of the belief that life begins at conception. And so ...

No one here wants to hear about sin. But the truth is, people who go their own way rather than God's will have to deal with the natural consequenses of their own actions. I am quite aware that most of you have no desire to have anyone other than yourselves to be lord over your lives. I can think of nothing sadder. But He allows you that. He also leaves you to deal with the resulting messes.

... if you're going to take such a cavalier attitude towards the murder of God-created life, you should be very hesitant to invoke His Name.
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 7:39 PM on September 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

In the last decade we've finally reached the point in this country where one political party is willing to put into the highest office a gormless man who is willing to be told what to do by his smarter party colleagues in all matters requiring any intelligence in return for the opportunity to hold the office. I am so ashamed.

Yes, it has been difficult living under the reign of King George W.
posted by caddis at 7:43 PM on September 11, 2008

Hang on: didn't she make it a point to tell everyone at the RNC that her son was leaving for Iraq on September 11th?

~~That was a lie.~~ John McCain was a POW.
posted by Flunkie at 7:45 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

It's strangely reminiscent of this.

Somebody mentioned the Miss South Carolina thing upthread a few weeks ago before (obviously) it ever happened. I was trying to find it to link to it, but I swear the control+f only works for me for the first thing you search for, but won't keep going.
posted by cashman at 7:48 PM on September 11, 2008

GIBSON: What insight into Russian actions, particularly in the last couple of weeks, does the proximity of the state give you?

PALIN: They’re our next door neighbors and you can actually see Russia from land here in Alaska, from an island in Alaska.

GIBSON: What insight does that give you into what they’re doing in Georgia?

PALIN: Well, I’m giving you that perspective of how small our world is and how important it is that we work with our allies to keep good relation with all of these countries, especially Russia. We will not repeat a Cold War. We must have good relationship with our allies, pressuring, also, helping us to remind Russia that it’s in their benefit, also, a mutually beneficial relationship for us all to be getting along.

posted by kirkaracha at 7:49 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Dear Askme: There's this thread that I just can't quit, even though it's wrecking my browser. What should I do?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:49 PM on September 11, 2008 [4 favorites]

schyler523 posted: This article makes my blood boil. It makes me hope that some disenfranchised voter decides to blow a shitload of these ~~vote challengers~~ evil fuckers away.

O.M.F.G! They cannot be serious.
posted by dejah420 at 7:57 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

if you're going to take such a cavalier attitude towards the murder of God-created life, you should be very hesitant to invoke His Name.

I am interested in stopping the murder. Would it help me do that by frothing at the mouth and insisting that all who abort deserve the electric chair? No. And just like in murder involving adults, there are degrees of legal liability. !st degree. 2nd degree. Manslaughter....I am not a judge and I am not a lawmaker. I AM one who is speaking up -that is what I am required to do as a Christian and a human being.

Frankly I cringe even when I see people who murdered adults sentenced to life or to the electric chair. That is a very very serious thing. Right now we live in an entire society that does not see unborn life as worthy of protection. Our entire mindset as a nation has trouble even with jailing women who do drugs to excess while pregnant. I want to see the mindset of our nation change, not just the laws. Because it will be much more likely to accomplish the goal if the mindset changes.

Besides, I know that God is the ultimate Judge. For those that refuse to repent, His judgement will indeed be carried out. Whether the act was legal in man's eyes or not. I tremble to think of what He must think of a society that does this to its offspring.

Hang on: didn't she make it a point to tell everyone at the RNC that her son was leaving for Iraq on September 11th? On a military site I visit occasionally the point was made that is is illegal to mention the actual date of a deployment. I had never heard of this but it would make sense.
posted by konolia at 7:59 PM on September 11, 2008

I've read this entire thread from start to finish, a feat that took me approximately 4 days, so I haven't been involved in this discussion. But I'd like to say just a few things--one, that tkchrist needs to chill the fuck out since his rabid foaming-at-the-mouth is only turning people off.

No. And so the fuck what?

Who am trying to convert here? Konolia? The person you just labeled a troll? Or You?

Boy it takes a lot of balls to tell me to chill the fuck out and then say ignore the only person in here who doesn't agree. Especially after a dozen people awarded her the MeFi medal of valor for "sticking with it." IE. TROLLING.

Fuck that "Chill out." You want civil discourse? Then engage the troll by not calling her a troll. That's nice and civil. You won't turn her off.

But you won't turn her on either. You will just hit the "repeat" button and get the same mindless prattle over and over.

Yes. She is a troll. She ALWAYS has been a troll. I'm glad somebody had the balls to say it. But don't come in with hard line and then criticize me.

I'm not trying to be mean. I'm not. I'm certainly not claiming to be any genius myself. Nor am I merely being cynical. Trust me. I have worked really hard at shelving my cynicism. But I am a realist. And I KNEW liberals were gonna fuck up another election. Right at the time it was most dangerous to allow another thieving GOP administration. And HUUUUGE part of that is this pussy delusional attitude about where America is at. And we are in trouble. In trouble because we have given the stupidest people here way too much credit. And the corporate oligarchs haven't - they've been busy manipulating the shit out of these goobers and got it down to a science.

I'm only saying out loud things you already know but for some dumb reason are too chicken shit to admit. You had better embrace the facts, bro. And that is the people that decide you, and your childrens' fate, are ignorant dangerous mother fuckers. Forget trying to convert them to your values. FORGET IT. It has NOTHING to do with values. And it sure as shit has nothing to do with facts. They don't even understand what values are. The performance of our right wingers in this thread is all the evidence I need. You want to turn them on? It's base emotions not reason. The sooner you grok it, the better off you're gonna be.

I'm glad you realize you can't have civil discourse with trolls. Another word for morons.

All you can do is placate, subvert, distract, or manipulate them. The Republican hierarchy understands. So had you.

Man for a site that has no problem calling people morons over matters of trivial frigg'n taste— over what bands, books, movie or comics a person likes or doesn't like—you guys sure have a curious level of squeamishness for god damned hard reality when serious shit is on the line.
posted by tkchrist at 8:10 PM on September 11, 2008 [10 favorites]

I am interested in stopping the murder.

But not quite interested in it enough to think that the murderer should be charged with murder. The murderer has suffered enough, of course.

I'm also curious as to whether this theory also applies to the father. Can the father of a three year old also murder his child without having a murder charge placed against him? After all, it's his child too. He's suffered enough.

And how about if he murders his unborn child? Punches the mother in the stomach or something? Surely he'd be charged with battery against the mother, but murder? He's suffered enough, right?
posted by Flunkie at 8:12 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

State election rules allow parties to assign “election challengers” to polls to monitor the election. In addition to observing the poll workers, these volunteers can challenge the eligibility of any voter provided they “have a good reason to believe” that the person is not eligible to vote. One allowable reason is that the person is not a “true resident of the city or township.”

The Michigan Republicans’ planned use of foreclosure lists is apparently an attempt to challenge ineligible voters as not being “true residents.”

“You can’t challenge people without a factual basis for doing so,” said J. Gerald Hebert, a former voting rights litigator for the U.S. Justice Department who now runs the Campaign Legal Center, a Washington D.C.-based public-interest law firm. “I don’t think a foreclosure notice is sufficient basis for a challenge, because people often remain in their homes after foreclosure begins and sometimes are able to negotiate and refinance.”

As for the practice of challenging the right to vote of foreclosed property owners, Hebert called it, “mean-spirited.” ... McCain’s regional headquarters are housed in the office building of foreclosure specialists Trott & Trott. The firm’s founder, David A. Trott, has raised between $100,000 and $250,000 for the Republican nominee.

Oh, boo hoo, Mr. Hebert. When the economy is doing so great that the middle class are making up to $5 million a year, there's just no excuse for missing a payment, and failing to achieve this should strip you of your right to representation. Let the poor vote? Whatever, comrade.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:13 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Please remember that Jesus said that if we even call someone "you fool " we are in danger of hell fire.

I am a little less concerned with civil penalties. I will leave that to the lawmakers.
posted by konolia at 8:21 PM on September 11, 2008

-Hang on: didn't she make it a point to tell everyone at the RNC that her son was leaving for Iraq on September 11th?

-On a military site I visit occasionally the point was made that is is illegal to mention the actual date of a deployment. I had never heard of this but it would make sense.

It was a rhetorical question. She did proudly tell the nation that her son was leaving for Iraq on September 11th. It was brought up a couple times in this thread that she'd have no way of knowing. But if she did know, you're saying she broke the law. If she didn't know, then why on earth would she say it?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:21 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

I Love you Sarah Palin Thread. At night you rock me gently to sleep with your whispered sweet nothings about love and romance and ridiculous abortion arguments.

Promise me we'll always be together Sarah Palin thread.

Seems to me like the one thing Sarah Palin knows a lot about (not getting abortions) hasn't actually been a big issue so far. Which is too bad, cause I'd really like to ask her if life begins at conception, what other crimes besides murder can we be charged with?Can mom be charger with kidnapping? Reckless endangerment. If I have sex with my pregnant wife with the kid RIGHT THERE IN THE ROOM can Child Protective Services take the kid? How soon after conception can a woman be charged with transporting a minor across state lines for the purposes of committing a felony? If my old lady and me get it on in the back of my '68 charger and then go rob a liquor store, is junior an accomplice?

Help me Sarah Palin Thread. I need answers.

Also: For every person who sees her inability to answer basic interview questions as an intellectual failing, there is someone out there who thinks Gibson was being a sexist bully and that she showed the type of grit and determination we need running this country.

Her incompetence isnt the issue, it's the ability of them to foist her incompetence on us with a straight face that is the issue. We already knew she was incompetent, let's quit proving it to ourselves. We've already gone down that road with W, and while we pointed and mocked, they flushed this country down the toilet.
posted by billyfleetwood at 8:26 PM on September 11, 2008 [7 favorites]

Her incompetence isnt the issue, it's the ability of them to foist her incompetence on us with a straight face that is the issue.

A CONVERT!

And why do they do that? Because they know their base is dumb.

While we go "Are you kidding me?" Their base is screaming "HALLELUJAH! Somebody I understand!"

They don't NEED to appeal to smart people. Smart people don't matter. Smart people are the worlds biggest minority.
posted by tkchrist at 8:34 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

Right now we live in an entire society that does not see unborn life as worthy of protection.

konolia, you've said you'd rather be incinerated by aerial bombing than grow up under the Taliban. If you're so cavalier about protecting "born life," then who the hell are you to dictate the treatment of "unborn life"?

Our entire mindset as a nation has trouble even with jailing women who do drugs to excess while pregnant. I want to see the mindset of our nation change, not just the laws. Because it will be much more likely to accomplish the goal if the mindset changes.

Our entire mindset as a nation has trouble with lots of things, and you're fixated on one particular thing, around and about which you REFUSE TO BEND. Bully for you. We all want to see the mindset of our nation conform to our own beliefs. This nation is no more your personal property than it is mine.

Besides, I know that God is the ultimate Judge. For those that refuse to repent, His judgement will indeed be carried out. Whether the act was legal in man's eyes or not. I tremble to think of what He must think of a society that does this to its offspring.

Then LET GOD JUDGE. You? You're a fucked-up sinner. You're in no position to judge anybody else. Look around you. God has sent you plenty of born people in need of help. Get to work.
posted by dogrose at 8:36 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

Boy it takes a lot of balls to tell me to chill the fuck out and then say ignore the only person in here who doesn't agree. Especially after a dozen people awarded her the MeFi medal of valor for "sticking with it." IE. TROLLING.

Dude, you're kind of underscoring the reasoning behind the chill-the-fuck-out response.

People who shoot other adults don't always get a lifetime in prison or executed. I am more interested in saving babies than punishing women. Yes, I suppose they would deserve a penalty -but I think they have already paid a pretty high price. A dead child. If that is inconsistent, fine. I can live with that.

konolia, the problem here is that you're refusing to close the gap between the things you claim to believe to be true (that abortion is the murder of a person, that a government that does not plainly acknowledge and enforce this principle is evil) and some plain facts about the world (that abortion does not currently bear a legal punishment comparable to murder, that those politicians who claim to agree with you consistently fail to attempt to enforce the prior principle).

If you do not believe that abortion should carry a murder (or manslaughter?) charge, despite being murder, please explain why that is. Understand that "the mother has suffered enough" is not a coherent argument in the context of the criminal justice system of the US; murder is murder, regardless of whether a murderer regrets it, as far as the courts are concerned.

If you truly can't explain it any further—if "that's inconsistent, and I'm satisfied with my inconsistency" is the end of the road, then, fine, say so; you have a right to your inconsistencies, and none of us is perfectly rational. But strongly consider staying out of discussions of the topic in the future. As it is, you're not really holding up your end of the bargain on this, so it's a bit of a poor move to engage the subject at all.

I am a little less concerned with civil penalties. I will leave that to the lawmakers.

Civil penalties are at the heart of the functioning of this country and of the ever-vaporous enforcement of the very thing you have acknowledged fundamentally drives your vote. If you wish to recuse yourself from civil involvement in the issue, why are you voting?
posted by cortex at 8:38 PM on September 11, 2008 [9 favorites]

konolia> I am interested in stopping the murder. Would it help me do that by frothing at the mouth and insisting that all who abort deserve the electric chair?

I didn't say anything about sentencing first-degree murderers to death. But most people who are opposed to the death penalty believe that people who commit such crimes deserve life without parole. And in your previous comment, you give no indication that you support life terms for women who obtain abortions.

As for being "interested in stopping the murder", that's a big part of the reason why we punish murderers -- as a deterrent to others. The other part is that treating all murders equally, no matter whether the victim was black or white, male or female, gay or straight, or -- as you would have it -- born or unborn, is how the law makes a statement (at least in principle) that we are all equal in its eyes. Which means that it doesn't matter what your "interest" is, if the law recognizes life as beginning at conception, the law must treat the knowing and pre-meditated taking of an unborn child as first-degree murder.

And just like in murder involving adults, there are degrees of legal liability. !st degree. 2nd degree. Manslaughter....

Not when it comes to the knowing, pre-meditated taking of another's life -- that is first-degree murder. If you believe the law of this land should be that a fetus is an unborn baby, then a woman who gets an abortion is guilty of first-degree murder. Period.

I am not a judge and I am not a lawmaker.

Neither of which gets you off the hook for your moral elisions.

Our entire mindset as a nation has trouble even with jailing women who do drugs to excess while pregnant. I want to see the mindset of our nation change, not just the laws. Because it will be much more likely to accomplish the goal if the mindset changes.

Interesting. If I were a more cynical man, I would accuse you of being opposed to legal punishments directed towards women who get abortions because you know that it won't fly tactically or politically. Which would mean that you would be in favor of charging these women with first-degree murder if you ever manage to "accomplish the goal of mindset changes."

But that would be beyond the pale. So all I can conclude is that you don't really see fetuses as unborn children, and you don't really think abortion is murder.
posted by UrineSoakedRube at 8:40 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

Not to inturrupt the Kono Lia VP announcement thread, but I'd love to see Palin stand up against extensive, hostile, aggressive questioning from a leading partison show host who has spent their career disparaging you and people in your party and have it end with that host clearly admiring you.

McCain OR Palin. But they're too scared to go on Larry King, much less like Olbermann or something.
posted by cashman at 8:54 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

I am a little less concerned with civil penalties. I will leave that to the lawmakers.

You answer to a higher authority, understood. Then let's look at this:

I believe in personal responsibility. If I were pregnant, and I stuck a coathanger up myself to try to self abort, is that not my own responsibility? Shouldn't I KNOW that I was endangering my life? If I went to a backalley butcher for an illegal abortion, wouldn't I KNOW I was breaking a law? That what I was doing had real personal risk?

I do not see women as helpless brainless creatures. I think it is sad and tragic that a woman would die from a botched abortion, but I think it is sad, tragic and stupid that she would put herself into that situation which at best would still be fatal to the unborn infant.

That "situation" being seeking to terminate her pregnancy. Should she find herself in that "situation", legislation that would in many cases ensure that two lives are lost (by your definition of life) is more acceptable than preserving legislation that in most cases ensure that she lives, because should she die, that is her "personal responsiblity". She brought it on herself, in other words. So let's be clear: It has nothing to do with preserving life. It is a retributory belief. What's "sad, tragic and stupid" is the belief that death from attempted abortion is her problem. That's some milk of human kindness, right there.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:55 PM on September 11, 2008 [6 favorites]

If Democrats were Republicans, they would respond [to the sex ed ad] like this.
posted by schyler523 at 8:56 PM on September 11, 2008 [8 favorites]

konolia: But the truth is, people who go their own way rather than God's will have to deal with the natural consequenses of their own actions.

And what are those consequences? Really, I'm curious. And how do you know them?
posted by zardoz at 8:59 PM on September 11, 2008

What a strange world when the most interesting discussion of Barack Obama's foreign policy plans happens on Bill O'Reilly's show, while the Times is talking about lipstick and hockey.
posted by neroli at 9:24 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

Washington Post: Palin Links Iraq to Sept. 11 In Talk to Troops in Alaska

"Gov. Sarah Palin linked the war in Iraq with the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, telling an Iraq-bound brigade of soldiers that included her son that they would 'defend the innocent from the enemies who planned and carried out and rejoiced in the death of thousands of Americans.'

The idea that the Iraqi government under Saddam Hussein helped al-Qaeda plan the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, a view once promoted by Bush administration officials, has since been rejected even by the president himself."

posted by ericb at 9:28 PM on September 11, 2008 [3 favorites]

Dude, you're kind of underscoring the reasoning behind the chill-the-fuck-out response.

And your engaging a religious fanatic and troll in a useless circular debate and, I might add, a complete derail from the topic. Which is what she wants. To make this thread about her. And all of you are buying into this.

I am gonna "stick around" shamelessly keeping this thing on track. And remind you all of the kind of people you think your gonna "debate" and "win over" in a this so-called battle of ideas. becuase even 5000 comments in you keep chasing the same rabbit that just ignores every point you make.

If is isn't obvious by now of the futility of your attempts, well, I'm gonna pop in every fifty comments to put this train back on the rails. I don't care how shrill or un-chill it sounds.

Maybe I can earn my medal of valor by shear attrition. Is that so wrong?
posted by tkchrist at 9:34 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

As has been stated many times, logic does not work on those people profoundly affected by religion.
posted by mrnutty at 9:40 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

So, according to the lovely konolia, we all have to follow God's plan, which is unknowable, so the best we can do is to follow those parts of the Bible that aren't self-contradictory and that the evangelical churches haven't decided are no longer operative and we're fine. Unless those churches don't really have any insight into God's plan. Then we're fucked. Sounds like a way to live!
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:42 PM on September 11, 2008 [4 favorites]

visit any country outside of her own in her entire life (the one exception is a brief political trip to Iraq)

Correction: Having received her first passport in 2006 she went for a brief visit to Alaskan National Guardsmen stationed in Kuwait and Germany. She later claimed her international experience included a visit to Ireland. But, in the end, it was only a brief stop to refuel the aircraft.

"[McCain campaign spokeswoman Maria] Comella said yesterday that the 2007 trip was her only foreign travel apart from visits to Canada. Comella said Palin first received a passport in 2006.

...According to business leaders and academics familiar with foreign-policy issues and Palin's administration, she has demonstrated little interest in expanding the state's trade ties with Canada or Russia compared with some of her predecessors.

posted by ericb at 9:48 PM on September 11, 2008 [1 favorite]

konolia- I would like to revisit a statement you made quite a while back in this thread. I would link to it but, hey, it was quite a while back in this thread. You were being questioned about the fact that anti-abortion laws in fact promote more abortions. Your response was that God judged nations by their laws and implied that by having a law against abortion God would give the rest of us a pass on the abortions that happened anyway. And the ones that happened because. This does not seem like a very christian stance to take. Christ himself spent three days in Hell for us. How could a good christian do less than take the black mark for living in a country that permits abortion so that less unborn babies get murdered? Are you truly interested in stopping the murder?
posted by pointilist at 9:50 PM on September 11, 2008 [2 favorites]

I am interested in stopping the murder.

No, you said before that you weren't. You're interested in having a law against the murder. Not in stopping it.

a theoretical Sophies's choice type question

There's nothing theoretical or Sophie's-choice about it. We know how to get abortion rates very, very low: accurate sex education including discussion of contraception and readily available contraceptives. Opposing those things makes abortions happen.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:51 PM on September 11, 2008 [11 favorites]

""Gov. Sarah Palin linked the war in Iraq with the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks, telling an Iraq-bound brigade of soldiers that included her son that they would 'defend the innocent from the enemies who planned and carried out and rejoiced in the death of thousands of Americans.'"

Technically, she doesn't need to be talking about 9/11. Thousands of American service-members have been killed in Iraq; folks have planned and carried out those attacks on American service members; they also kill innocent Iraqis. The implication is false, but the statements are true.

Regarding the vote challenges, how come no one's made a response ad about that: "Senator McCain doesn't want the vote of folks who have been foreclosed upon. In fact, he doesn't want them to vote at all. Don't let McCain benefit from Bush's foreclosures."
posted by klangklangston at 11:37 PM on September 11, 2008

Didn't we agree to stop the abortion discussion?

I have a problem with this: In fact, it's actually federal law now that rape kits must either be free or compensation must be available to those with economic need.
This law is written by Biden. Is this really a good thing? Is the problem that people are charged for rape kits that they may be poor? Because compensation is only required for those with economic need? I think this is still atrocious.
posted by davar at 12:00 AM on September 12, 2008

First, their homes were taken away.
Now, John McCain wants to take their votes away.
All over the country, republicans are trying to use home foreclosure lists to strip people of their right to vote because they no longer have a home address. Talk about kicking people when they're down.
Why should people who've suffered the most from Bush's bad economy also be stripped of the right to vote? If you think that's not fair, if you think that's not the American way, vote Barrack Obama.
posted by madamjujujive at 1:05 AM on September 12, 2008 [10 favorites]

It occurs to me that I have a plastic fork that's been to more countries than Sarah Palin. It went pretty close to Russia too.

McCain/Plastic Fork 08!
posted by the duck by the oboe at 1:21 AM on September 12, 2008 [5 favorites]

summer has come and passed
the talking heads can never last
wake me up when november ends

like lipsticked pigs and muslim pasts
the bloody flags are tied to masts
wake me up when november ends

here comes mccain again
drooling out his fears
drenched in bullshit again
it's driving me to tears

let my television sail
into my old garbage pail
wake me up when november ends

conventions have come and gone
and the fools just carry on
wake me up when november ends

the bells are ringing in my head
and if we were moose we'd all be dead
wake me up when november ends

pregnant as 17?
or alaskan beauty queen?
america still thinks you're cool
cause you aren't some foreign fool

those four more years will better pass
with uncle sam's head up his ass
wake me up when november ends
posted by pyramid termite at 2:02 AM on September 12, 2008 [3 favorites]

Being on the periphery of campaigns both here and in Florida taught me that the last thing I should ever use to determine who to vote for was ads or mailers. Period.

OH! You're from Florida. That explains everything.
posted by chuckdarwin at 2:18 AM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

Palin as poor Miss South Carolina mashups are already available for your viewing pleasure here and here
posted by zany pita at 4:28 AM on September 12, 2008 [3 favorites]

zany pita, that was the first time I have seen any of her 'celebrity interview'. Oh, it hurt me. I feel like I've just been kicked in the bollocks.
posted by chuckdarwin at 4:34 AM on September 12, 2008

Being from Michigan, I'm not surprised the Republicans are using foreclosure lists to challenge voters. We had federal election monitors in Flint (heavily black) and Hamtramck (heavily immigrant, including a lot of Arabs) during the last presidential election because of prior civil rights violations by Republican operatives.

Trying to reinstate the property requirement (which our Founding Fathers implemented) for voting is actually about the first truly conservative thing the current crop of Republicans have tried in years.

Yes, I know that isn't actually why they are doing this, but I'm feeling magniminous this morning.
posted by QIbHom at 4:42 AM on September 12, 2008

Did people miss the part where we learned she WILL NOT BEND!!1!. Why are we still talking about Abortion.

Sarah Palin has lots of stupid ideas we can talk about: going to war with Russia, the age of the earth, drilling the shit out of Alaska, silly sex-ed, etc.
posted by chunking express at 5:03 AM on September 12, 2008

Is the problem that people are charged for rape kits that they may be poor?

No, the problem that people are charged for rape kits is that they may be rape victims.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 5:31 AM on September 12, 2008 [13 favorites]

What's "sad, tragic and stupid" is the belief that death from attempted abortion is her problem. That's some milk of human kindness, right there.

Why do you insist it is my moral obligation to help or allow someone to kill her own baby safely?

It would be like me supporting sanitary torture chambers with connecting surgical suites so we can fix them up and torture them longer. (I am anti-waterboarding, just so you know.)
posted by konolia at 5:40 AM on September 12, 2008

Trying to reinstate the property requirement (which our Founding Fathers implemented) for voting is actually about the first truly conservative thing the current crop of Republicans have tried in years.

You'll also notice that those property requirements largely went the way of the dodo by the middle of the 19th century, because they're extraordinarily undemocratic.

I don't even know why I'm surprised... Republicans finally decided to pay lip service to the ideals of the founders of democracy, but chose to do so with the worst bits of deprecated classism they could find. It's probably for the best that Lincoln actually got it in writing that the parts about 3/5ths of a vote don't apply any more.
posted by Mayor West at 5:59 AM on September 12, 2008

> Is the problem that people are charged for rape kits that they may be poor?

No, the problem that people are charged for rape kits is that they may be rape victims.

Apparently Biden thinks otherwise, because XQUZYPHYR said that according to the law Biden wrote, compensation (for the rape kit cost) is only required for those with economic need. I think it is atrocious to ask rape victims to pay for their rape kit, regardless of whether they have "economic need" or not.
posted by davar at 6:00 AM on September 12, 2008

"Why do you insist it is my moral obligation to help or allow someone to kill her own baby safely?"

Because she's not you. I am "required" to "allow" you to have freedom of speech and the integrity of your own body. So you are free to choose life. As is any other woman.

And besides that, the use of "safely" reveals your true attitude toward these women you know nothing about.

"And by the way, God has clearly revealed His will . When people stand before HIm there will be no excuses."

Cite? Psalm 137 would tend to disagree.

"And by the way, God has clearly revealed His will . When YOU people stand before HIm there will be no excuses."

This is what I understood you to say.
posted by no, that other sockpuppet at 6:13 AM on September 12, 2008 [4 favorites]

I know, Mayor West. I happen to disagree with any methods of keeping the poor, women, racial minorities, naturalized citizens, etc. from voting, and history is on my side.

Well, unless the Reppubs get another 4 years to pick SC judges.
posted by QIbHom at 6:16 AM on September 12, 2008

Why do you insist it is my moral obligation to help or allow someone to kill her own baby safely?

So you're cool with people having unsafe abortions. Out of sight, out of mind, eh? Let's say the SCOTUS outlaws abortion tomorrow at the Federal level. Do you think people are going to stop having them?

They won't. People have been having abortions for a very long time, and no law can stop them.

Do you think "God" is going to return his favour to the US because people are having secret, unsafe abortions? Really? Because if you do, then I think you need professional help.
posted by chuckdarwin at 6:27 AM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

There's nothing in the act Biden wrote that restricts compensation to people in economic need.
posted by dirigibleman at 6:30 AM on September 12, 2008

I would like to propose banning Konolia from ever mentioning abortion issues again. Her presence inevitably turns a thread into an endless attempt to introduce rationality into her world. She is clearly having none of that: she chooses to remain batshitinsane.

Banning her on this topic would restore some semblence of balance to the discussion. People who deal with the fact-based world may be able to hold a productive discussion instead of being distracted by the freakshow.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:19 AM on September 12, 2008 [3 favorites]

Thanks dirigibleman. Unfortunately, I cannot open your link. I did not find any news articles about the act that mention anything about economic need, so I hope XQUZYPHYR was mistaken. The news articles about this law did not say that states are required to pay for the (anonymous) rape kits though. They only have to do that if the state wants to continue receiving funding under the federal Violence Against Women Act, which provides tax dollars for women's shelters and law enforcement training.
posted by davar at 7:28 AM on September 12, 2008

American Conservative magazine calls Palin a liar on the Bridge to Nowhere issue.
posted by jonp72 at 7:38 AM on September 12, 2008 [3 favorites]

Ok, my darlings, can I just point something out here?

If McCain / Palin gets in...

1. The Supreme Court gets stocked full of assholes
2. We go to war with who knows how many more countries -- Russia? Iran? Somewhere else on the map I can bet you $50 neither McCain or Palin know ANYTHING about?
3. The economy continues to go to hell...except for rich people
4. We get a prescription drug-abusing beer heiress for first lady instead of a librarian who killed someone with her car (Laura Bush) or a lawyer who spent much of her career helping women and children (Hillary Clinton)
5. ........oh my gosh, I can't go on, it's too fucking depressing.

Listen. I didn't like Obama. I wanted Clinton. But McCain/Palin scare the daylights out of me because they're so incredibly fucking stupid. Yes. I just said that. They are opportunistic parasites, and like a tapeworm, they must be flushed. If Obama gets in, I don't have that heavy, rotten feeling in my gut that we're going to be at war for 100 years, or facing fake tax rebates that mollify the lower middle class while continuing to give everything to those who already have it. I am sick to death of wondering if this country is going to slide even more so into Idiocracy territory. tkchrist is right. Smart people are a MINORITY in this country. No one bothers to think about the consequences of their vote, and the rest of us are made to suffer for it.

I've got the career skills and wherewithal to get the hell out of here if I have to, but 99.9% of the country doesn't. There comes a point, though, where it's not unpatriotic to leave, it's realistic. If me and my family can have a better quality of life elsewhere, then why not go? The "love it or leave it" people are either a. rich enough to not give a shit or b. too clueless to realize that when your beautiful country has been infected by a cancer of stupid that you are powerless to stop (*cough* jewsleavinggermanywhentheysawthewritingonthewall *cough*), you can either die miserable or live free somewhere else.

I hate this election.
I hate watching the rabid, frothing right act like they haven't fucked up the last 8 years hardcore.
I hate the people sporting "Hockey moms for Palin!" stickers in the suburb next door, because the worst downgrading they're going to have to do when the economy tanks is switch their lawyer husbands to a lesser grade of scotch.
But most of all, I hate the willful ignorance that has become par for the course in this country.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 7:38 AM on September 12, 2008 [19 favorites]

I would like to propose banning Konolia from ever mentioning abortion issues again.

I think that goes way too far. While Konolia and I do not see eye to eye on the issue of abortion, I do not object to her holding the beliefs she holds. What I do object to is that some of the arguments that konolia has used have been made in bad faith.
posted by jonp72 at 7:53 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

I would like to propose banning Konolia from ever mentioning abortion issues again.

What's up with that? I'm pro-choice, but I can understand Konolia's point of view that she should not be forced to directly or indirectly support other people's choices to have abortions where she sees that as killing babies. You're not starting from that point, so you don't see it that way, but if you were, if you actually understood abortion to mean killing human babies as an everyday occurrence, you would likely have moral problems with it too. That's why this issue always implodes. She does not agree with you. You can't make her agree with you by arguing with her over the internet. At some point you just need to stop arguing about it. But you don't accomplish this through forcing her to shut up. I don't think that's what this site is about.

Again, it's such an echo chamber in here sometimes that we forget that half the country believes one thing and the other half believes another. Just because most of the people on this site think one pov is right doesn't mean we get to call everyone else batshitinsane.
posted by onlyconnect at 7:54 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

Why do you insist it is my moral obligation to help or allow someone to kill her own baby safely?

Now you're just making things up. No one wants you to help anyone do anything. I sure as hell wouldn't want your judgmental presence at my abortion. And you don't get to "allow" me to do anything. That's the great thing about being a free adult in a country that is still not a theocracy, despite what you want.

Konolia, whenever you have to resort to either making things up or pointing to what you think god wants, you're automatically wrong. We don't live in a theocracy, so your god doesn't get to dictate what I do. Try coming up with an argument that doesn't require imposing a christian belief on a secular country. (And a belief held by a minority of Xians, at that.) Anti-abortion arguments that don't rely on trashing the 1st amendment are out there, and they're rather interesting.

Damn, I was just saying people should ignore her, but once you engage, it's hard not to go back.
posted by Mavri at 7:55 AM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

At the risk of being mocked for quoting a celebrity, I thought Matt Damon hit the nail on the head with this one: "It's like a really bad Disney movie, "The Hockey Mom.' Oh, I'm just a hockey mom from Alaska, and she's president," said Damon. "She's facing down Vladimir Putin and using the folksy stuff she learned at the hockey rink. It's absurd."

In one comment, he explained why a certain subset of people are attracted to her (it's like a Disney movie!) and why that's so scary.
posted by Mavri at 7:59 AM on September 12, 2008 [6 favorites]

Just in case it has been challenged in the last 1000 comments, I reclaim this thread and all its riches for the glory of myself and my descendants.
posted by onlyconnect at 8:00 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

But most of all, I hate the willful ignorance that has become par for the course in this country.

I'll do ya one better -- willful ignorance hasn't just become par for the course, it's being heartily embraced and celebrated. It's being marketed as a plus, because it makes our world leaders just like us, gosh darnit!

Half the country is completely mired in this distorted Capra-esque view of politics. Ms. Palin goes to Washington!!!lolololol

Gag. Spare me. Spare us. Spare this nation.
posted by shiu mai baby at 8:00 AM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

If you ban ideas, they just go underground.

I disagree with Konolia, she sidetracks issues, doesn't argue in good faith and all of that, but banning her, or books, or telling her she can't say certain things, or telling people how to think...all of that is wrong.

She should be moderated just like the rest of us, by the same standards.
posted by QIbHom at 8:01 AM on September 12, 2008 [3 favorites]

In one comment, he explained why a certain subset of people are attracted to her (it's like a Disney movie!) and why that's so scary.

I enjoyed King Ralph too, people, but it was not a documentary.
posted by Shepherd at 8:15 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

What's up with that?

Consider it a backhanded testament to the irrepressible optimism in the human spirit.

Now matter how many times the discussion happens, there will always stir the faint hope in some hearts that once boxed into a logical corner, Konolia will throw her hands in the air and shout, "Omigod, guys! You're totally right! What was I thinking all these years! Abortions and gay marriages for all my friends!"

When this doesn't happen, everyone realizes that they've wasted their time yet again, and bitterness follows.

It isn't going to happen. As the saying goes, never wrestle with a greased pig. (Note: not implying that Konolia is a pig).
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 8:18 AM on September 12, 2008

Sounds like Governor Palin didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.
posted by kirkaracha at 8:38 AM on September 12, 2008

Second (or third or fourth or whatever) the idea that konolia's right to free expressions of her political ideas should not be abridged, regardless of the "intellectual honesty" of her arguments. Anyone who argues in an intellectually dishonest way knows what they are doing and doesn't really believe in what they are arguing, so it is useful to hear those arguments as clues to the real goals. I believe she is bordering on slut-hating when she says she isn't interested in preserving the life of the mother. Simple calculus:

Legal choice = 1 "death" (fetal)
Illegal choice = 2 deaths (mother + fetus)
Clearly one of those extra deaths doesn't count, so it must not be one of those sacred ones.
=> ???.
posted by Mental Wimp at 8:45 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

I would like to propose banning Konolia from ever mentioning abortion issues again.

that's absurd

Banning her on this topic would restore some semblence of balance to the discussion.

what kind of balanced discussion is it when everyone takes the same side? there's no other way to describe it - this idea of yours is fascistic

if you're disgusted with her don't talk to her
posted by pyramid termite at 8:59 AM on September 12, 2008 [3 favorites]

Fallows:

Mention a name or theme -- Brett Favre, the Patriots under Belichick, Lance Armstrong's comeback, Venus and Serena -- and anyone who cares about sports can have a very sophisticated discussion about the ins and outs and myth and realities and arguments and rebuttals.

People who don't like sports can't do that. It's not so much that they can't identify the names -- they've heard of Armstrong -- but they've never bothered to follow the flow of debate. I like sports -- and politics and tech and other topics -- so I like joining these debates. On a wide range of other topics -- fashion, antique furniture, the world of restaurants and fine dining, or (blush) opera -- I have not been interested enough to learn anything I can add to the discussion. So I embarrass myself if I have to express a view.

What Sarah Palin revealed is that she has not been interested enough in world affairs to become minimally conversant with the issues. Many people in our great land might have difficulty defining the "Bush Doctrine" exactly. But not to recognize the name, as obviously was the case for Palin, indicates not a failure of last-minute cramming but a lack of attention to any foreign-policy discussion whatsoever in the last seven years.

posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 8:59 AM on September 12, 2008 [10 favorites]

Some people lament that we as a nation are inevitably creeping to the far right politically, but that is just a side effect of the strategy of dumbing down our national discourse in the pursuit of corporate control over appetites and opinions. McCain and Palin, more than any other political team in my life time, are being sold like a breakfast cereal or a Disney movie, and they are being backed by folks much smarter and powerful than they. The painful Palin interview with Charles Gibson carefully orchestrated between her handlers and his, with both of them uncomfortably participating in the charade, was a stark symbol of the wasteland to which we crept. It was like one of those forced celebrity endorsements, where you know its horseshit and the celebrity knows its horseshit, but you both sort of agree to ignore it so the celebrity can get paid.
posted by Mental Wimp at 9:01 AM on September 12, 2008 [4 favorites]

Fact Check: Palin Wrong on Former VP Credentials: "Every vice president over the last 30 years had met a foreign head of state before being elected."
posted by kirkaracha at 9:07 AM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

Time discusses the whole Americans wanting people as stupid as they are to run the country thing. Though, Time words it a bit differently than that.
posted by chunking express at 9:09 AM on September 12, 2008

"Every vice president over the last 30 years had met a foreign head of state before being elected."

But she did meet a foreigner once, that's pretty much the same thing.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 9:15 AM on September 12, 2008

Doen't "agree" with waterboarding?
But votes for an administration that embraces and justifies it and wants more of the same.

Appalled by the murder of innocent babies.
But votes for an administration that embraces and justifies it (in Iraq) and wants more of the same.

If your looking for logical consistency and some sort of break in the armor to win these folks over with logic, rational arguments, and facts — YOU WON'T FIND IT.

They don't understand. For fuck sake people they are incapable of understanding and stringing together complicated chains of cause and effect. They can't help it. No matter what you say or what objective facts you bring to the table it won't matter. Their circuitry is simply not equipped for the concepts and leaps in logic you are asking them to ponder or perform.

It's like asking your two year old go parallel park your car. The problem isn't that can't reach the gas pedals. It's they don't understand what a gas pedal does.

Give it up, already.
posted by tkchrist at 9:26 AM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

I've got the career skills and wherewithal to get the hell out of here if I have to, but 99.9% of the country doesn't. There comes a point, though, where it's not unpatriotic to leave, it's realistic. If me and my family can have a better quality of life elsewhere, then why not go? The "love it or leave it" people are either a. rich enough to not give a shit or b. too clueless to realize that when your beautiful country has been infected by a cancer of stupid that you are powerless to stop (*cough* jewsleavinggermanywhentheysawthewritingonthewall *cough*), you can either die miserable or live free somewhere else.

Careful, now. There are people here who will call you a traitor, a coward, or worse.

I hate this election.
I hate watching the rabid, frothing right act like they haven't fucked up the last 8 years hardcore.
I hate the people sporting "Hockey moms for Palin!" stickers in the suburb next door, because the worst downgrading they're going to have to do when the economy tanks is switch their lawyer husbands to a lesser grade of scotch.
But most of all, I hate the willful ignorance that has become par for the course in this country.

What got to me was the rampant apathy.
posted by chuckdarwin at 9:36 AM on September 12, 2008

This Times article linked above has provided me with my daily dose of heebie-jeebies and hatred for my fellow person.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:36 AM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

I think the new meme on Palin is clearly: Naked Political Ambition.

She doesn't care if she's ready or able to be President or VP.

She just WANTS it. She didn't hesitate. She answered the call because it's good for HER, not good for AMERICA.

It's the exact opposite of Patriotism.

She's not an idiot, and who knows, in 15 years she might make a good President. I'm not going to rule that out even though I think that's unlikely.

But her Naked Political Ambition trumps what's good for America. And that goes for McCain as well. That's the only thing that really jumped out at me in the Gibson interview.
posted by cell divide at 9:42 AM on September 12, 2008 [4 favorites]

(*)

The abortion issue doesn't go anywhere because both sides feel the need to defend the most ridiculous, extreme version of their position. The pro-life viewpoint and the pro-choice viewpoint are both plainly wrong if you take them to their logical conclusions.

If "life begins at conception," as popularly understood, then we have to pretend that a single-cell fertilized ovum is indistinguishable from a fully-developed human being. That taking a pill to prevent a microscopic blastocyst from implanting in the uterine wall the day after conception is morally and legally equivalent to drowning a child in the bathtub. Common sense tells us that this is ridiculous.
If "life begins at birth," as popularly understood, then we have to pretend that a 10-pound kicking baby is a meaningless mass of lifeless tissue until it is exposed to air, at which point it magically turns into a cute, cuddly, precious human being. That a pregnant mother is fooling herself when she coos at the wiggling little baby on the sonogram, because it's really just a useless tumor that happened to grow in her body. This is plainly stupid.

I don't think anybody really believes these things, and yet we feel the need to defend one or the other. The pro-life/pro-choice dichotomy is a scam perpetuated by extremists on both sides who have hijacked the discourse. The facts are that a man has sex with a woman, nine months later a baby comes out, and what happens in between is a gradual, ongoing process, and there is no moment where you can say "this is a human being" where there was no human being a moment before.

Listen, we don't make these decisions based on logic. Science is not going to settle this. This is really all based on gut reactions and intuition. If you've got an 18-week-old fetus that looks like a baby, in my opinion, you've pretty much got a baby. If you've got a 4-week-old teeny-weeny tadpoly-looking thing, you've pretty much got a tadpoly thing. Act accordingly.

People have worked this out before.
posted by designbot at 9:46 AM on September 12, 2008 [7 favorites]

McCain Pre-Palin [October 2007]: Mayors And Governors Can't Handle National Security

"I have had a strong and a long relationship on national security, I've been involved in every national crisis that this nation has faced since Beirut, I understand the issues, I understand and appreciate the enormity of the challenge we face from radical Islamic extremism," ...Senator [McCain] declared. "I am prepared. I am prepared. I need no on-the-job training. I wasn't a mayor for a short period of time. I wasn't a governor for a short period of time."

posted by ericb at 9:51 AM on September 12, 2008 [3 favorites]

Konolia : This thread :: Palin : McCain's Candidacy
posted by maxwelton at 9:52 AM on September 12, 2008 [6 favorites]

Stephanie Parker, 23 - a single mother puffing on a Marlboro menthol cigarette in Mount Clemens’s Main Street – voted for Mr Kerry and had been drawn to Mr Obama. “Palin’s made a big difference. I think she’ll do us great. She’d be awesome. What she stands for is fantastic.” What does she stand for? “I couldn’t tell really. But I love her.”

This seriously makes me want to cry. I want to believe that people like this who don't understand or care about issues are rare. I want to believe that people like konolia-- single issue voters with a religious belief system that means there's no point in arguing about said issue (give it up, folks, no matter how many facts you offer that prove that Democrats' policies lead to fewer abortions and Republicans' policies lead to more abortions, the facts are irrelevant because she has a belief system where making abortion illegal is more important than decreasing abortion)-- are rare. But I don't think it's true.

I can handle and respect disagreements about the issues, people debating what what set of policies would be best for America. But when huge segments of our society just aren't interested in what set of policies would be best for America... I just don't see what you can do.
posted by EmilyClimbs at 9:59 AM on September 12, 2008 [7 favorites]

* I've got the career skills and wherewithal to get the hell out of here if I have to, but 99.9% of the country doesn't.

* Careful, now. There are people here who will call you a traitor, a coward, or worse.

chuckdarwin, I've watched that happen to you, and I'm sorry for it. Personally, if it came down to that, I'd suck it up. Call me whatever you want, but if it means my boyfriend or our future children don't get drafted to fight in the upcoming war against Russia, then awesome. (Said during three-way phonecall with my boyfriend and kittens for breakfast last night: "Russia. Great. Because we know how well THAT worked out for Napoleon and H****r."). And if it means I don't have to declare bankruptcy to pay for cancer treatment or a rape kit, then rock on.

* But most of all, I hate the willful ignorance that has become par for the course in this country.

* What got to me was the rampant apathy.

It's both those things. They go hand in hand. There's the willfully ignorant who consistently vote against their own best interests, and there's those who don't even vote at all -- or worse, THINK they're informed on the issues because they made a gut decision about something. Most Palinites fall in that camp.

On the battlefield, where it's unclear what's happening in the "fog of war," you can play the "use your gut instinct" card -- in the White House, I want the residents to be hunkered down learning ALL THERE IS TO KNOW about something and making decisions accordingly, not winging it. I want to know they'll surround themselves with other smart people who will dedicate themselves to doing a good job, not cashing in for their buddies to reap the promise of a sweet seat on a board somewhere someday. No one can know everything, but for fuck's sake, people, shouldn't the so-called leader of the free world know a little bit more about it than the majority of us?
posted by bitter-girl.com at 10:05 AM on September 12, 2008 [3 favorites]

No, design bot. The pro-choice viewpoint is NOT that life begins at birth. It's that it's the mother's choice to control what's going on in her body. Which is why someone can think abortion is wrong and still be pro-choice.
posted by Green With You at 10:10 AM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

I should clarify. Some people who call themselves pro-choice do so because of the reason you state. I just meant not all pro-choice people call themselves pro-choice for that reason.
posted by Green With You at 10:13 AM on September 12, 2008

This seriously makes me want to cry. I want to believe that people like this who don't understand or care about issues are rare.

Pfft, I'll bet you're one of those people who vote for the American Idol based on how well they can sing.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:15 AM on September 12, 2008

Alaska under Sarah Palin has the highest rape rate of any state.
posted by ericb at 10:24 AM on September 12, 2008

Oh good lord. Palin just got booked on Hannity. PLEASE, ALAN COMBES -- THINK OF THE CHILDREN.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 10:24 AM on September 12, 2008

The pro-choice viewpoint is NOT that life begins at birth. It's that it's the mother's choice to control what's going on in her body. Which is why someone can think abortion is wrong and still be pro-choice.

I understand what "pro-choice" means. I'm talking about the extreme version of both points of view. But if you want to argue the hardline view that there should be no restrictions on abortions at any point in the pregnancy, you are taking a moral and legal position, for better or worse. You're arguing that a fetus should not be recognized as a human being until the moment of birth.
posted by designbot at 10:43 AM on September 12, 2008

Palin's Churches & The Holy Laughter Anointing
posted by jonp72 at 10:46 AM on September 12, 2008

You're arguing that a fetus should not be recognized as a human being until the moment of birth.

Why the fuck is this thread about abortion? No one gives a fuck about what ladies do with their wombs except for the lady WHO WILL NOT BEND. And yet she's managed to derail this thread -- which is an accomplishment in a 5000 comment thread.
posted by chunking express at 10:47 AM on September 12, 2008 [7 favorites]

McCain is on The View (!) and they're trying to pin him down pretty strongly on lying campaign ads, vague "reform" rhetoric, and lies about Palin's record in Alaska. But the way he sidesteps and equivocates, it's easy to see how his fans could feel vindicated by his words if they're not paying close attention to whether he actually addresses the question.

It's interesting to consider the difficulty of performing a good interview. If your subject really doesn't want to be pinned down, they can run out the clock with tangentially related stump speeches and it's hard to prevent them from doing that without being nasty.
posted by lostburner at 10:52 AM on September 12, 2008

And a belief held by a minority of Xians, at that.

THANK YOU

Oh good lord. Palin just got booked on Hannity.

"So tell us - between maintaining Alaska's self-defense, reforming the Republican party, and saying no to earmarks, how do you find the time to be the fantastic mother you are?"

"Oh, Sean, haha."
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:53 AM on September 12, 2008 [6 favorites]

I would like to propose banning Konolia from ever mentioning abortion issues again.

That's...words fail me...You KNOW exactly how Konoila is, you KNOW her positions on the subject, yet you still want to argue with her and then when you can't convince her, want to ban her from discussing the subject.

That is astonishingly childish and lame.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:58 AM on September 12, 2008 [5 favorites]

McCain is on The View (!) and they're trying to pin him down pretty strongly on lying campaign ads

So, hang on, THE VIEW is what we rely on for this now?
posted by Artw at 11:06 AM on September 12, 2008

That is astonishingly childish and lame.

Ok, no offense, but can the back-and-forth handslappy Konoliathon be taken to Metatalk or something?
posted by cashman at 11:09 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

So, hang on, THE VIEW is what we rely on for this now?

Barbra Walters is no lightweight. She also doesn't work for the news divisions, which are cultural and intellectual wastelands now. The other thing that made this possible is that McCain expected this to be a softball interview; candidates will not allow tough interviews. Her bread and butter isn't getting presidential candidates interviews, so she can afford to piss him off. If CNN asked "This Bridge to Nowhere claim is a bald faced lie. Why are you putting your stamp on this after a career of demanding clean politics?" they would never get a GOP candidate again. They lost their interview with Larry King and maybe their presidential debate by calling a SPOKESPERSON on blatant BS.
posted by a robot made out of meat at 11:16 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

You're arguing that a fetus should not be recognized as a human being until the moment of birth.

Only if you buy the Christian right framing of the issue. Which I don't.
posted by QIbHom at 11:30 AM on September 12, 2008

Why the fuck is this thread about abortion? No one gives a fuck about what ladies do with their wombs except for the lady WHO WILL NOT BEND. And yet she's managed to derail this thread -- which is an accomplishment in a 5000 comment thread.

It's not like we can discuss Palin's qualifications. There's no there there.

What this thread is about to me is freedom. Everyone's. Whether we can talk about shit, what we are free to believe, what we are free to do, and what we would not be free to do (perhaps even say) if McCain is elected.

This little snot fest over whether konolia ought to be allowed to speak is amusing to me for that very reason.

Someone upthread says Gov. Palin WANTS IT. And that's the core thing for me. She doesn't want to BE the Veep/Prez so much as she wants to HAVE THE POWER.

Ambition is fine. Obama and even McCain are up front about it. They're up front about what they want to do. McCain will harm the country. Obama won't harm it as much, and the harm won't come about because of things he wants to do to people, but what he wants to do for people.

Palin doesn't strike me as an altruistic person in the public service sense. She studies just enough to parrot back what she's told when she's out of her depth. You can be a quick study and do well, but if she'd been serious about BEING the Veep then she would have started cramming for the interviews when she started putting herself forward - Sometime in '07, IIRC.
posted by lysdexic at 11:32 AM on September 12, 2008 [4 favorites]

“Palin’s made a big difference. I think she’ll do us great. She’d be awesome. What she stands for is fantastic.” What does she stand for? “I couldn’t tell really. But I love her.”

This seriously makes me want to cry. I want to believe that people like this who don't understand or care about issues are rare. I want to believe that people like konolia-- single issue voters with a religious belief system that means there's no point in arguing about said issue ... are rare.

Not rare at all unfortunately. There are plenty to go around for both sides. I've heard many people express similar sentiments about Obama. "I like what he stands for." "He makes me proud of my country. " "He is a symbol of progress." His policies? No clue. I've heard on more than one occassion people talk about themselves as being "progressive" without knowing what that even means. "It just sounds cool!"

There are millions of single-issue (abortion) voters on both sides as well. Some people will NEVER vote for a pro-life candidate, and some will NEVER vote for a pro-choice candidate, regardless of whether that cadidate has any actual power to affect the issue, and regardless of the any other policies or plans the candidate has.

Cluelessness, ideological stubbornness, and tunnel vision are not exclusive to any one party or group.

I'll repeat my mantra: anyone from any group who devalues the validity of the other side's beliefs or votes by dismissing the entire group as stupid, clueless, or prejudiced is keeping themselves willfully ignorant, to the eventual detriment of their own side. It's better to find out the actual reasons that the opposition votes the way it does, and find areas of common ground to win people to your side. I guarantee that no one, on any side, wants to join up with a group that dismisses them as stupid.

In this regard, I think Obama has done an excellent job. He has continually been labelled (inaccurately) as "the most liberal senator" by conservatives, yet many conservatives can see themselves voting, for the first time, for a Democrat for president. McCain has taken this approach as well, and indeed has reached out to Democrats for many years. The fact that he has been successful in this strategy is underscored by his VP pick, which was to show conservatives he is still "one of them." In my opinion, Palin was chosen not just to try and get women to vote Republican, but to give conservatives a reason to not jump ship. And it's working!

Both sides have plenty of idiots, racists, extemists, and wackos. But the leaders and mainstream members of neither party are stupid.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 11:32 AM on September 12, 2008 [3 favorites]

32 more? Okey-doke.
posted by MrMoonPie at 11:47 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

Until recently, I worked in the county referenced in the Times article. Macomb County is notoriously racist. They don't like Muslims, they don't like Ay-rabs, they don't like blacks).

What I hear in those heart-breaking quotes is, "Thank Jesus! I now have an excuse to vote against the Muslim nigger."
posted by QIbHom at 11:47 AM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

Obama was very impressive on Bill O'Reilly. I was surprised.

I think that the public should expect McCain and/or Palin to be interviewed by every hostile interviewer possible. Just keep saying "If Obama can go on O'Reilly..."
posted by rokusan at 11:49 AM on September 12, 2008

Every day I keep checking the Almighty Palin Thread.

How many more comments until it reaches consciousness?
posted by rokusan at 11:51 AM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

Both sides have plenty of idiots, racists, extemists, and wackos.

Agreed. Go on DailyKos if you wanna see some of the ones on "my" side.

But the leaders and mainstream members of neither party are stupid.

Wrong. George W. Bush. QED. He is a textbook example of "so stupid, you promote them to get them out of the way of everyone doing the real work." I think we've all worked with one of those before. Except this time the crazy bastard made it into the presidency.

Are there clever Republicans? Sure. But the ones in charge -- the Roves, if you will -- spend more time working up manipulative methods designed to get people to vote without actually thinking about what they're doing than they do making reasonable public policy or finding candidates who care about anything other than OMG THE POWER, THE SWEET, SWEET POWER. Puppetmasters and their strings.

The liberal failing is always, always, always going to be our stupid insistence that truth and honesty will win in the end. This ain't kindergarten. A comment read elsewhere -- the Democrats are bringing knives to this fight and the Republicans are bringing machine guns. We can try to understand their viewpoints all day long but what it boils down to is while we're perfectly happy to let them live their lives how they like, they will not extend the same courtesy to us. So to hell with being polite, nice and using nuance. Attack them like they do us. Remember Gingrich's recommended list of words to use when attacking opponents? Do that. Tenfold. Make sure "liar," lying" and "hypocritical" appear in there...A LOT.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 12:26 PM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

How many more comments until it reaches consciousness?

And at what point can we no longer abort it?
posted by Faint of Butt at 12:43 PM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

Konolia == ParisParamus == Brevets ==people who are banned because they are utterly dishonest, disruptive smegheads who contribute nothing of value to a discussion because they have resolved to never allow fact or logic to shape their views.

Ignoring them would be swell, if everyone agreed to do so. And would be functionally equivalent to banning them.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:49 PM on September 12, 2008

BTW, this mismatch of fighting styles (Obama: McCain :: knives:machine guns) is one reason why a bunch of Hillary Clinton supportors thought she might be a better match-up against McCain than Obama.

fff, no. Again, if you really believed that abortion = killing babies, you would not want to support it through your vote, either. You don't believe that, but konolia does. Kudos to you for figuring out that you're right and pro-lifers are wrong, but I don't think it's really that simple.
posted by onlyconnect at 12:54 PM on September 12, 2008

Ignoring them would be swell

Wish it into the cornfield!
posted by cashman at 1:02 PM on September 12, 2008

who contribute nothing of value to a discussion because they have resolved to never allow fact or logic to shape their views.

In konolia's defense, that's only true for her in this arena.
posted by small_ruminant at 1:03 PM on September 12, 2008

In what respect, Charlie?
posted by dydecker at 1:12 PM on September 12, 2008 [3 favorites]

(Obama: McCain :: knives:machine guns)

Obama:McCain :: Ali:Frazier. Democrats panic too easily.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 1:13 PM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

Christ fff, take it to metatalk.
posted by ryanrs at 1:15 PM on September 12, 2008

Oh, and Todd Palin has just been subpoenaed.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 1:15 PM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

In konolia's defense, that's only true for her in this arena.

Yes, I think that's true. When she or others of her ilk hear logic directed at her faith-based beliefs, she imagines herself an early Christian in the coliseum and the logic-spewer is an unclean, bearded, sweaty gladiator taunting her and ridiculing her god. She's not listening, she's closed her mind and reciting the holy words she has been given to ward off evil. If you hold that thought in your mind, you will see that it is futile to try to persuade her using logic. I have decided to try to understand what her faith-based beliefs actually are, because, as I said before, understanding how she argues for them is a clue to what they really are. I want to believe she's not a slut-hater for instance, but the way she describes her beliefs makes me start to waver in this judgement.
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:21 PM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh, and, on topic, this comment for the In what respect, Charlie? link totally rocks!:

I can see the moon from my terrace, but I'm not trying to get the job of second of command at NASA. </blockquote?

posted by Mental Wimp at 1:32 PM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

chuckdarwin, I've watched that happen to you, and I'm sorry for it.

It's not your fault.

Personally, if it came down to that, I'd suck it up. Call me whatever you want, but if it means my boyfriend or our future children don't get drafted to fight in the upcoming war against Russia, then awesome. (Said during three-way phonecall with my boyfriend and kittens for breakfast last night: "Russia. Great. Because we know how well THAT worked out for Napoleon and H****r."). And if it means I don't have to declare bankruptcy to pay for cancer treatment or a rape kit, then rock on.

Yeah, but you've obviously travelled. You have seen the other options, and obviously weighed them up. Most of the people who hurl insults at me here have never been anywhere and don't even have a passport. In their way, they are just as blinded as people in North Korea who have been force fed disinformation about the west. "America has to be preferable... because it has to be. Because I said so. Because. I don't need evidence. America invented The Simpsons. Commie."

I was very lucky. I had a couple of people who helped me out. I never forget that. Email me if you want more info.

* But most of all, I hate the willful ignorance that has become par for the course in this country.

* What got to me was the rampant apathy.

It's both those things. They go hand in hand. There's the willfully ignorant who consistently vote against their own best interests, and there's those who don't even vote at all -- or worse, THINK they're informed on the issues because they made a gut decision about something. Most Palinites fall in that camp.

I'm extremely disappointed that McCain's cynical ploy is having its intended effect. It will be a tragedy if he wins... for America and the world. Because this shitty situation you're in is just the beginning (you think petrol is expensive now?).

On the battlefield, where it's unclear what's happening in the "fog of war," you can play the "use your gut instinct" card -- in the White House, I want the residents to be hunkered down learning ALL THERE IS TO KNOW about something and making decisions accordingly, not winging it. I want to know they'll surround themselves with other smart people who will dedicate themselves to doing a good job, not cashing in for their buddies to reap the promise of a sweet seat on a board somewhere someday. No one can know everything, but for fuck's sake, people, shouldn't the so-called leader of the free world know a little bit more about it than the majority of us?

At some point, being smart and well-informed stopped being cool. Sad, but true. SOME Americans and Brits seem to wear their ignorance like a badge. Less so here...
posted by chuckdarwin at 1:34 PM on September 12, 2008

she has no idea what the bush doctrine is.

"Bush doctrine? That's pertnear all the doctrine a lot of people in Alaska can get. We put the bush doctor on the bush plane and the bush pilot flies the bush doctor out into the bush. The doctor does some bush doctrine and the bush pilot flies him back to Anchorage."
posted by Floydd at 1:35 PM on September 12, 2008 [12 favorites]

The snippets of McCain on 'The View" are quite good -- why does it take a daytime talk show to ask hard, straight questions?
posted by Rumple at 1:54 PM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

From a different thread but I think it applies

You know what? We need more douches on our team. We need an army of douches. We need a bunch of pricks, a huge number of fucking assholes, and a couple handfuls of absolute cocksuckers. It wouldn't hurt to have a few bitches and cunts distributed throughout the country as well. This is why we've been losing for years, their team has them in spades and we have a bunch of nice guys who can't even use the word "lie" on the record to describe this administration. Fuck that shit evermore.
posted by vito90
posted by Sailormom at 2:02 PM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

When she or others of her ilk hear logic directed at her faith-based beliefs, she imagines herself an early Christian in the coliseum and the logic-spewer is an unclean, bearded, sweaty gladiator taunting her and ridiculing her god. She's not listening, she's closed her mind and reciting the holy words she has been given to ward off evil.

It is not illogical to believe that abortion kills human life, and that it is immoral to kill human life. You say that her belief is based on faith and that yours is based on logic, which is nice for you, but neither belief is really "provable" in the manner of a mathematical equation.

If a large portion of Americans believed that it was okay to kill babies until they were officially 1 years old because only at that point did they become fully sentient and were no longer completely dependant on their parents for sustenance, alot of other people would see that as murder. It's a clearer distinction than abortion, obviously, where there is almost complete dependence on a woman's body, but I'm just trying to explain where the morality is coming from. If there was a law on the books that said killing a child until they were 1 years old was perfectly legal, I think alot of us would see that as immoral and would vote for candidates who wanted to change that law, despite the extra burden that caring for a 1 year old might put on alot of families. We would not argue that these were religious beliefs that were being imposed inproperly on the rest of the country. We would say that murdering babies was simply wrong.

You can't see konolia's point of view because you disagree with her fundamental premise that abortion = killing babies. But it's very difficult to disprove her fundamental premise, because where human life begins is not really down to a science. Given this, I'm not sure where your moral superiority is coming from. I support abortion because I think the question of when life begins is still open, and until then women should have the right of control over their own bodies. But I understand this is not a perfect solution. While I'll fight for women's right to have an abortion, I understand that it's not a black and white question. Why is it so hard for people to understand that just because they believe in something and think it is the most fair thing does not make it "right" or the right answer for everyone?
posted by onlyconnect at 2:12 PM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

Doug Stanhope wants to Save Bristol Palin.
posted by Bookhouse at 2:15 PM on September 12, 2008

Excerpts from tonight's Gibson interview of Palin

Sarah Palin on 'Bridge to Nowhere':

CHARLES GIBSON: You have said continually, since he chose you as his vice-presidential nominee, that I said to Congress, thanks but not thanks. If we're going to build that bridge, we'll build it ourselves.

SARAH PALIN: Right.

CHARLES GIBSON: But it's now pretty clearly documented. You supported that bridge before you opposed it. You were wearing a t-shirt in the 2006 campaign, showed your support for the bridge to nowhere.

SARAH PALIN: I was wearing a t-shirt with the zip code of the community that was asking for that bridge. Not all the people in that community even were asking for a $400 million or $300 million bridge.

CHARLES GIBSON: But you turned against it after Congress had basically pulled the plug on it; after it became apparent that the state was going to have to pay for it, not the Congress; and after it became a national embarrassment to the state of Alaska. So do you want to revise and extend your remarks.

SARAH PALIN: It has always been an embarrassment that abuse of the ear form -- earmark process has been accepted in Congress. And that's what John McCain has fought. And that's what I joined him in fighting. It's been an embarrassment, not just Alaska's projects. But McCain gives example after example after example. I mean, every state has their embarrassment.

CHARLES GIBSON: But you were for it before you were against it. You were solidly for it for quite some period of time...

SARAH PALIN: I was...

CHARLES GIBSON: ... until Congress pulled the plug.

SARAH PALIN: I was for infrastructure being built in the state. And it's not inappropriate for a mayor or for a governor to request and to work with their Congress and their congressmen, their congresswomen, to plug into the federal budget along with every other state a share of the federal budget for infrastructure.

CHARLES GIBSON: Right.

SARAH PALIN: What I supported was the link between a community and its airport. And we have found that link now.

Sarah Palin on Congressional Spending:

GIBSON: The state of Alaska, under OMB figures in 2008, got $155 million in earmarks for a population of 670,000. That's $231 per person in Alaska. The state of Illinois, Obama's state, got $22 per person. You got ten times per person as much. How does that square with your reforms?

PALIN: We have drastically, drastically reduced our earmark request since I came into office.

GIBSON: But you still have multiple of any other state.

PALIN: We sure are -- and this is what -- you go out and you ask any Alaskan this. This is what I've been telling Alaskans for these years that I've been in office, is no more.

GIBSON: Governor, this year, requested $3.2 million for researching the genetics of harbor seals, money to study the mating habits of crabs. Isn't that exactly the kind of thing that John McCain is objecting to?

PALIN: Those requests, through our research divisions and fish and game and our wildlife departments and our universities, those research requests did come through that system, but wanting it to be in the light of day, not behind closed doors, with lobbyists making deals with Congress to stick things in there under the public radar. That's the abuse that we're going to stop. That's what John McCain has promised over and over for these years and that's what I'm joining him, also, saying, you're right, the abuse of earmarks, it's un-American, it's undemocratic, and it's not going to be accepted in a McCain-Palin administration. Earmark abuse will stop.
posted by Rumple at 2:19 PM on September 12, 2008

But the leaders and mainstream members of neither party are stupid.

Well. You are dead wrong about that. There are plenty of mainstream members and leaders of the Parties that are stupid. But that is not the problem and it's not what we have been saying.

You guys keep giving us this strawman that we are saying EVERYBODY who is republican, exclusively, is stupid. Nobody has said that. So quit acting like we're cynically dismissive of the bright beautiful flower that is diverse democracy. It's not only a strawman, it's naive as hell and misses the entire point.

What I have said re-fucking-peatedly, and what has been born out in reality, and this thread (to anybody that can read), is the BASE of Republican party is dumb as shit. The 20-30% that still gives Bush high approval ratings are dumb as cold turds in February.

This is NOT the same thing as claiming we are all such frigg'n geniuses on the left or that the right has a monopoly on stupidity. Which is obvious by some of the lefties in here arguing with a regigious kook about bible verse and abortion.

What the Republicans have is a monopoly on is KNOWING and perfecting that they are dealing with stupidity. The stupidity that decides elections in a split electorate. They don't even bother educating or reaching the mainstream. The dwell 80% of their efforts on the Moron Base. While the Democrats waste time being wonky and fair and talking to like academics to city folk.

yet many conservatives can see themselves voting, for the first time, for a Democrat for president. McCain has taken this approach as well, and indeed has reached out to Democrats for many years. The fact that he has been successful in this strategy is underscored by his VP pick, which was to show conservatives he is still "one of them."

You wait and see. There will be almost ZERO cross by so-called true conservatives when Nov rolls around.

And Palin was a brilliant but desperate gamble to secure the base that was threatening to NOT vote otherwise - and yes it will work. But not because Rove is giving them any credit for brains.
posted by tkchrist at 2:23 PM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

Did the way she kept saying "Charlie" remind anyone else of this?
posted by ND¢ at 2:27 PM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

That's in extremely poor taste. Leave Bristol out of it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:29 PM on September 12, 2008

No, no, you see it's Charlie Gibson's Gaffe.
posted by Artw at 2:31 PM on September 12, 2008

Heh. I was thinking that youtube link was this.
posted by Artw at 2:37 PM on September 12, 2008

So from what I can tell, Doug Stanhope is basically a professional asshole? Yech.
posted by cortex at 2:38 PM on September 12, 2008

Why is it so hard for people to understand that just because they believe in something and think it is the most fair thing does not make it "right" or the right answer for everyone?

This will be the only comment I will make on Abortion.

The issue is simply a larger question of liberties. And liberties, once you lose them, tend not come back easy. In fact loss of liberty tends to snowball to greater loss of liberty.

Frankly I couldn't give a shit about abortion. As a man I feel it's non of my business at all.

I would however be solidly in favor of banning all types of Abortion on the federal level, over turning ROE V. Wade FOREVER in this country if:

A) it also meant a a consistent approach to the sanctity of human life and also meant banning the Death Penalty, and close examination and revision of War Powers.

B) if it got religious fanatics to shut the fuck up and let us run this country future forward

But ten minutes after said ban they would be whipped up by the puppet masters to put federal bans on gay marriage, gays having public jobs, and would kill employment discrimination policies against gays.

Then it would be teaching Creation "science."

Then it would be banning contraception.

Then they would go on the anti-Porn band wagon and use that to put back in place censorship councils for media which would expand to "un-American' Speech and effectively kill first amendment rights.

I ain't making this shit up. This is already what these people want.
posted by tkchrist at 2:39 PM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

Doug Stanhope wants ~~to Save Bristol Palin~~ you to believe that the money you send to him via Paypal is going somewhere other than his pocket.
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 2:52 PM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

It is not illogical to believe that abortion kills human life, and that it is immoral to kill human life.

You misunderstand. You can theoretically build a consistent system of beliefs in which prohibition of abortion trumps all the other moral considerations that are brought up and you can defend that system by appealing to the principles on which you built that system. The principles themselves are faith-based, principles like the value of human life or of kindness to others. It isn't that any of us find opposition to abortion illogical, it's the utter failure to defend unbending insistence that the evil of abortion trumps any other consideration through appeal to such a system of values. And then the target starts to move. The absolute opposition to abortion becomes the absolute opposition to states without laws that condemn abortion, even if having such laws leads to more abortions and additional maternal deaths. Then the previous supposed principle morphs into one in which the unknowable plan of God decrees that states will be judged. So it is the slipperiness of the argument, the illogic of it, if you will, that frustrates, not that we dismiss the idea that a logically consistent moral framework cannot possible exist where abortion is generally outlawed. Does that help, onlyconnect?
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:05 PM on September 12, 2008

You can't see konolia's point of view because you disagree with her fundamental premise that abortion = killing babies.

I think abortion is usually wrong (I make exceptions for the life of the mother and for rape).

I support choice.

My fundamental disagreement is that making it illegal makes things worse. When abortion is made illegal, greater harm comes to society. The proof is factual: simply look at the statistics for those countries with legal access, and those where it is made illegal.

The one big problem with Konolia's single-issue stupidity is that it causes more harm.

And because she utterly refuses to acknowledge the facts about the issue, I believe our MeFi community is far better off with her silenced: it will allow those who are willing to deal with reality to make progress in any discussion about abortion, and will significantly reduce the amount of trolling and derailing she presents to us.

It is a solution that has worked perfectly well for the issues of homosexuality, Palestine, and evolution. The bans against specific individuals regarding their specific hobbyhorse issues, where they utterly refuse to deal with reality, works. Things go better around here without their noise.
posted by five fresh fish at 3:17 PM on September 12, 2008

New Evidence: Palin Had Direct Role In Charging Rape Victims For Exams

"Despite denials by the Palin campaign, new evidence proves that as mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, Sarah Palin had a direct hand in imposing fees to pay for post-sexual assault medical exams conducted by the city to gather evidence.

Palin's role is now confirmed by Wasilla City budget documents available online."

posted by ericb at 3:19 PM on September 12, 2008 [8 favorites]

AP: "Straight Talk Express" Has Detoured Into Doublespeak.
posted by ericb at 3:22 PM on September 12, 2008

My friend made this site (sound and photoshop)

Iloveyousarahpalin.com
posted by lee at 3:27 PM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

I believe our MeFi community is far better off with her silenced: it will allow those who are willing to deal with reality to make progress in any discussion about abortion, and will significantly reduce the amount of trolling and derailing she presents to us.

Blech. I agree with you 100% on the issues, but the idea of banning the speech of people whose ideas you find abhorrent is not the way to go. If the only way we can "make progress" in a discussion is to silence our opponents, I submit that's not progress at all.

While I believe that she picks and chooses her arguments, and avoids any questions she can't answer by rote, Konolia isn't a troll, and she hasn't derailed this thread. She's said lots of things I disagree with, and things I find offensive, but she honestly believes those things - she isn't just saying them to rile us up.

If we don't want to engage her, we have the choice not to do so. Some of us may hold out the hope that we can finally break through to her through the repeated hammering of common sense. Others may want to dispute her statements for the benefit of perhaps-undecided people reading the thread. Whatever our reasons, though, we choose to respond.
posted by me & my monkey at 3:34 PM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

Does that help, onlyconnect?

No. Honestly, I went to college and everything, but I don't understand your comment.

My fundamental disagreement is that making it illegal makes things worse. When abortion is made illegal, greater harm comes to society. The proof is factual: simply look at the statistics for those countries with legal access, and those where it is made illegal.

I actually disagree with this. What if we found that making murder legal actually decreased the number of murders that would be committed? Would we legalize murder? No, because as a nation we'd likely mostly still feel that murder was fundamentally immoral. I think a similar situation currently exists with our drug laws -- they are illegal, even though it's widely acknowledged that doing so tends to cause greater harm to society (laws are unevenly applied, result in unequal punishment based on race and disproportionate to crime, etc.). So some people support the drug laws and some people don't, and no one is arguing that people who support the drug laws should be silenced.

You think you're right. Fine. But that doesn't make someone who disagrees with you batshitinsane, or stupid. I mean, I disagree with you, and with all due respect, I am neither of those things.
posted by onlyconnect at 3:43 PM on September 12, 2008

The best part of the whole abortion debate in this thread is that it started under the assumption that it would be Palin's lightning rod issue, which it really hasn't been so far.

The other delicious irony of the whole thing is how those who are opposed to Palin continue to look for the big "gotcha" that will sink her chances.No point in looking any more. The gotcha was small, and even though many column inches will be spent explaining it away, the "Bush Doctrine"was it.

You can parse the fairness of the question all you want, it doesn't matter. A lot of people who are supporting Palin no matter what are going to continue to support her. But in that instance she lost the benefit of the doubt from lot of peopleWho would have otherwise supported her. Policemen and High School Principals and the like. Prety much anyone who's job requires them to have their Bullshit detectors set on high. Those people saw that moment for what it was.

I'm not sayng that these folks are gonna defect to Obama's side tomorrow. A lot of them might still vote that side of the ticket. It will be a quiet defection and a slow but steady erosion. They may not badmouth her, but they're not going to put their name on the line to defend hers. And these are the people you need to keep your base strong come election day.

The regular political doubletalk which we all take for granted and allow ourselves to overlook if we like the candidate is one thing. Bush was good at this. He kept his lies political. This was the type of BS a person undertakes when they're trying to talk themselves out of a tight spot. She can talk as tough as she wants from here on out, but i'm not sure it's going to sound the same after this.

Palin just failed a fundamental political test. She showed real doubt. Evenwith all the talk of likability, and wanting our leaders to be "just like us", there's still an aspect of infallibility the public wants to see. When she says "In what respect Charlie" I was pissed that the camera wasn't focused on her face. That might be the only thing that saves her, because if her face was giving away as much as her tone of voice and body language was at that instant, her political career will be over, even if they win this election.
posted by billyfleetwood at 4:05 PM on September 12, 2008

No. Honestly, I went to college and everything, but I don't understand your comment.

Sorry, I sort of tried to compress a long evolution on this thread of showing logical inconsistencies in the anti-choice stance konolia professes and the shifting rationale based on whatever the latest inconsistency mentioned was. This is what I object to, because it is fundamentally dishonest to say you are doing it on principle and then having the various principles your profess conflict in your very stance. Is that more straightforward?
posted by Mental Wimp at 4:13 PM on September 12, 2008

Obama was very impressive on Bill O'Reilly. I was surprised.

Absolutely, yes. Big props, for once, to the old, dishonest bully and falafel fetishist -- best piece of actual journalism I've seen on American TV in a long time. Which is not saying much, but it's still O'Reilly and I expected the usual insanity. But then when everybody else is discussing Lindsay Lohan and lipstick and pigs, the smart money says, discuss the actual issues and you'll easily look like a genius. A+

If "life begins at birth," as popularly understood,

You're a liar.

Whether you're lying out of bad faith or simply because you don't pay attention to stuff that makes your head hurt (like reading the newspaper) it's not this site's problem. But you're a liar. It's not "popularly understood", it's all in your head. Countries where abortion is legal simply have a timeframe -- first trimester, usually. Nine abortions in ten -- in the US -- happen before twelve weeks. Fewer than 1% occur after 21 weeks. That made-up (by antiabortion activists) expression, "partial birth abortion", ie late stage intact dilation and extraction doesn't even happen in most States of the US. It already was the rarest of procedures and it's illegal in many cases now, thanks to a clearly uncostitutional law as of today upheld as constitutional by 5 votes to 4 with Anthony Kennedy's vote (like that other legal masterpiece, Bush v Gore).

Long story short, you're a liar. I've just proven so.

Abortion discussions do matter because if McCain wins, Roe v Wade goes down, and then it's coat hanger time for so many American women. Only, abortion discussions don't really belong here because we're discussing the VP nominee for the Republican party, and abortion isn't (yet) an issue. The GOP is anti-Roe, the Democrats are for it, nothing new. Anyone who wants to discuss abortion on MeFi can post a FPP every day about it, if it stays up then go to town and discuss the fuck out of it there. This is not the right thread.

Oh, and you're a liar.
posted by matteo at 4:18 PM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

How about that? I disagree with the fully-credentialed Liberal five fresh fish. I do NOT believe abortion is usually wrong. I do not believe that the "unborn child" has any human rights until it has developed some higher mental functions which our best research doesn't happen until after it reaches "viability". (That research is still inconclusive enough that I am willing to consider restrictions before that, in order to 'play it safe', but absolutely not all the way back to "the moment of conception"; I consider that simply irrational.) And I would dare say that even fff's 'don't make it illegal but be disapproving' stand causes more harm than good just because I beleive that there is a fairly wide range of situations where abortion is the right thing to do. This is not a judgment made frivolously (although one of my criteria is that those who choose abortion frivolously should not be bringing children into this world). It was for a number of reasons that I and my now-ex-wife (as I told before) came to the mutual agreement that if she should ever become pregnant despite our use of usually-effective contraception, that she would automatically get an abortion. And we never had any rational reason to change our minds. (although at one point in her worsening psychoses she considered some irrational reasons to have children) I may be part of a different mutual decision in a future relationship but my low sex drive and desire to avoid any relationship with anyone remotely resembling my ex probably make that a moot point.

That said, I grew up an only child in a solidly conservative Republican family that attended a relatively conservative Presbyterian church (nothing like the extremists somebody referred to, but we drove 15 miles on Sundays to avoid churches that were into "liberal causes". And yet I do not recall EVER HEARING the term "Pro Life" or the concept that "life begins at conception" until months AFTER the Roe vs. Wade decision, leading me to the conclusion that it was, for most of its 'believers', a false political construct to cover up for opposition to abortion for other, less high-minded, reasons. And I had gotten most of my formal Sexual Education from a Catholic High School. 35 years later, I still doubt the sincerity of many of those pushing the concept and question the reasoning of those who, like fff and apparently even Sen. Obama, who buy into the concept but not the legal issue.

Only semi-related: I find it so hard to accept any of the arguments of the MetaFilter Contrarian Group who consider "the MetaFilterites" to be a monolithic , Liberal, even Democratic-Party-loyal group. That assumption exposes either extremely shallow thinking or a blind loyalty to another group (often the Republican Party, sometimes something else) that it pretty much invalidates them as anything more than Trolls.
posted by wendell at 4:19 PM on September 12, 2008

Is the problem that people are charged for rape kits that they may be poor?

No, the problem that people are charged for rape kits is that they may be rape victims.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:31 AM on September 12 [12 favorites +] [!]

Are the families of murder victims charged for the forensics in those crimes? The victims of robbery? How could this even have appeared to be a logical, let alone moral, choice?

(totally agreeing with you, just pointing out the stupidity.)
posted by jb at 4:24 PM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

Did the way she kept saying "Charlie" remind anyone else of this?

I'm pretty sure that unicorn clip was mimicking the little girl in All Dogs Go to Heaven, who repeatedly enunciates 'ChaRRR-lee' whenever she talks to him. And the Palin interview kept reminding me of that.
posted by dgaicun at 4:26 PM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

I'm not sayng that these folks are gonna defect to Obama's side tomorrow. A lot of them might still vote that side of the ticket. It will be a quiet defection and a slow but steady erosion. They may not badmouth her, but they're not going to put their name on the line to defend hers. And these are the people you need to keep your base strong come election day.

I'd love to believe that.

But it's never been the case before. The worse their presidential candidates are the more they shore up and toe the line in the end. We will see a large defection in congressional elections. Historically the mouth breathers don't show up so much for those.

The thing is Palin's mission is going to be to dismantle the executive. Here is what's gonna happen if McCain wins - and I think he has about 70-80% chance so far:

The shit is gonna hit the fan for the economy BIG TIME in about 2010 due massive rogue wave banking phenomena. The foreclosure crisis will look like nothing. And there won't be money for bailouts.

Oil prices will dip down a buck for a year or so through most of 2009 and then it will spike up to about $5 gal and rising through 2012. This will be because of middle east instability, renewed speculation, and increased demand from china and our hostile approach to Russia. And becuase the oil companies have their Man in the WH.

McCain, if he is still breathing (and the odds are against that) will have spent his time dealing with the Bush Debacle in Iraq by pouring money and out-dated military strategies into what is a political NOT a military problem. He will be forced by the Iraqi's to pull out far sooner than he wanted and will attempt to declare victory. But in less than a year Iraq will utterly breakdown into sectarian war again. So he will try to blame Iran and try to start shit there but we won't have the will or the money to do anything.

Palin will running around the country trying to get Xtians to support McCain polices by promising them hard core conservative SCOTUS nominees. It's all she can do. She won't have any other value or ability and nobody is gonna work with her. But a democratic controlled congress with scuttle that. Thus keeping the issue alive for the next culture war.

Things will get so bad we will forget all about Bush.

By 2012 there will be a Democrat in the White House but only becuase the GOP will need somebody to blame for all the shit they caused. And, like Quayle, you will never hear from Palin again.
posted by tkchrist at 4:32 PM on September 12, 2008 [3 favorites]

BACK TO GOV. PALIN:

It's just becoming a tradition that the GOP will select a highly unqualified Vice Presidential candidate every 20 years, and win.

1968: Spiro Agnew

1988: Dan Quayle

Of course, in the second case, he failed to get a second term, so the long-term trend is working against that strategy in some ways. Not to say it won't succeed one more time.

And Palin more resembles Agnew than Quayle, being a Governor who has done some probably illegal stuff that should bite her in the ass later. Except that the increasing power of Party-Loyal (and NOT loyal to Country, Principle or Rule of Law) operatives in the Justice Department may shield her, even from local charges. (Did you notice the the DOJ has had nothing to do with the investigation of the Interior Department scandal? If McCain/Palin wins, that will just go away within 6 months).
posted by wendell at 4:34 PM on September 12, 2008 [2 favorites]

And, like Quayle, you will never hear from Palin again.

Did I mention Kim Campbell earlier? I think I did.
posted by GuyZero at 4:54 PM on September 12, 2008

I agree with you 100% on the issues, but the idea of banning the speech of people whose ideas you find abhorrent is not the way to go.

You believe Bevets should still be allowed to poop in threads that mention evolution?

You believe ParisParamus should still be allowed to spew in threads that mention Israel or Arabs?

You believe Konolia should still be allowed to get her hate-on in threads that mention homosexuality?

What is the benefit to allowing these irrational people to pollute our drinking water?
posted by five fresh fish at 5:04 PM on September 12, 2008

Good solid scenario, tkchrist, but it assumes that the United States will have a Presidential Election in 2012, let alone one where it is possible for a Democrat to win. The campaign for Permanent Republican Rule continues strongly even after they had to abandon the cover of "Permanent Republican Majority" (which was neither realistic not what they really wanted). some fundamental changes in our Federal Govemment have been made in the last 8 years that make 'party-domination' different than it was in the 20 years of Democratic domination ('33-'52) and 12 years of Republican domination ('81-'92). So much of it occurred before the '06 elections that neither 'losing Congress', 'lame duck' status nor dropping approval ratings have done anything to stop the Bush/Cheney Administration from doing exactly what it intends to. With so much power concentrated in the White House, losing it would really be losing damn near everything, even with a weak Democrat taking charge. Are they the kind of people who could ever accept "losing damn near everything"? I find that almost impossible to believe. Of course, they would prefer to keep up the facade of free elections, but if, somehow, enough opposition unites to push Sen. Obama past the effects of all their election corruption, then they will need some excuse to not allow an "orderly transfer of power".
posted by wendell at 5:05 PM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

And, like Quayle, you will never hear from Palin again.

But George H.W. Bush Sr. did not die in office.

And the propect of a President Palin selecting a relatively uncontroversial Vice-President that the Democratic-Majority Congress can not keep from approving who becomes another Dick Cheney IN EVERY WAY (because how many people foresaw that Dick Cheney would become DICK CHENEY?) has to be terribly attractive to the Republican Power Structure (a member of which would become that "relatively uncontroversial" choice). Doesn't take a tin-foil hat (all my headwear cotton-polyester mix) to take such a possibility seriously.
posted by wendell at 5:13 PM on September 12, 2008

You believe ...

Yeah, I guess I do.

What is the benefit to allowing these irrational people to pollute our drinking water?

They're not polluting our drinking water. One can simply choose to ignore them.
posted by me & my monkey at 5:13 PM on September 12, 2008

I'm voting Republican!
posted by Bookhouse at 5:16 PM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

I sort of tried to compress a long evolution on this thread of showing logical inconsistencies in the anti-choice stance konolia professes and the shifting rationale based on whatever the latest inconsistency mentioned was. . . . Is that more straightforward?

Frankly, if someone pressed me to defend my general weltanschauung about abortion or drugs or morality in the face of atheism, I'd be surprised if they couldn't find a few logical inconsistencies. Let's take abortion. In my own view, I admit that I don't know when life begins. Is a fetus a human being at 8 months? At 2 months? I don't know. Wouldn't it be more moral of me to say that if I'm admitting I don't know, I should not be in favor of allowing abortion, since there is a chance it could lead to killing a human? Isn't it a bit logically inconsistent of me to say that if I don't know, I should err on the side of the mother's right, even though that might result in killing a human? This seems inconsistent to me. And yet, it's what I believe.

Then there are people who say that they personally believe abortion is wrong, and they would not do it themselves, but this belief is based on their own particular religion or morality, and they do not think they should be able to impose their own beliefs on other people who do not share the same religious or moral views. This seems like a reasonable position, but if we assume that your particular religious view is correct that that abortion really is objectively wrong, doesn't your decision not to ask other people to follow this rule ultimately result in greater harm? What if different religions believed different things about murder -- some religions thought murder was okay if performed as part of a religious holy war, and others did not. Would it be wrong to outlaw all murder even when it was accomplished as part of a holy war, because to do so would be enforcing the beliefs associated with one religion against others who did not believe in that religion and follow those beliefs? Isn't not outlawing abortion sort of like not outlawing murder accomplished for the purposes of a holy war in that scenario? (In this paragraph, "you" is not really referring to you.)

konolia is one of the only conservatives who speaks up in these threads and she isn't always perfectly consistent, but neither am I, and I doubt most other people here are either. I don't personally agree with her. As someone who has faced the angry metafilter mob in boyzone threads before, my view is that it can be very challenging to be logical and wholly consistent on any position when you are arguing 20 against 1. I challenge anyone here who hasn't tried it to do so and report back about how you deserve to be called stupid and batshitinsane because you hold a different view from the majority here and because someone else has labeled your views "logically inconsistent." Maybe nobody else on this site has every pointed out the logical inconsistency of your own views before because, by and large, many other people on this site happen to agree with you.
posted by onlyconnect at 5:52 PM on September 12, 2008 [4 favorites]

because how many people foresaw that Dick Cheney would become DICK CHENEY?

I have an archived Blog post from before the 2000 election that i need to find and wave about hysterically. The gist of it was "put your money in a coffee can and bury it in the backyard, cause these guys are crooks and it aint going to be safe in a bank" My friends all thought I was nuts.

tkchrist, i'm with you. My point wasn't that they wouldn't win. The ignorant base will still rally around her like she's the second coming. Just that if you were looking for a chink in her armor, there it is.

And I stick to My prediction that if McCain wins, he doesn't finish his first term and Palin will be President. Not to worry, we're still brothers in cynicism and despair.
posted by billyfleetwood at 5:56 PM on September 12, 2008

They're not polluting our drinking water. One can simply choose to ignore them.

How much of this thread is dedicated to arguing with the unconvinceable? It's the unstoppable force against the immovable rock.

You don't get to go post in support of safe choice over on GodBlog dot com. Here, you don't get to flaunt complete ignorance of social science statistical fact.

We have a wide diversity of opinion when we let nuance to enter our discussions. We need not restrict ourselves to the extremes. Folk like konolia, the unconvinceable, are the anathema of a site like this.

Run a stat on this thread. How much of it is dedicated to yet another abortion derail involving konolia's counter-productive faith-based opinion? If it's not a significant part of a thread that's ostensibly about McCain's dangerously poor evaluation of qualifications, and Palin's astounding lack of any professional qualifications and apparent lack of global political knowledge, then I absolutely rescind my suggestion.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:00 PM on September 12, 2008

When Mike Huckabee, former Governor of Arkansas and Republican primary contender, took over the microphone, he joked that he was hurt by McCain's decision not to ask him to join the GOP ticket.

"John McCain didn't even vet me," Huckabee said. "But he didn't vet Sara Palin either."
posted by EarBucket at 7:04 PM on September 12, 2008 [3 favorites]

Palin wants you to know that she doesn't blink:

I answered him yes because I have the confidence in that readiness and knowing that you can't blink, you have to be wired in a way of being so committed to the mission, the mission that we're on, reform of this country and victory in the war, you can't blink.

So I didn't blink then even when asked to run as his running mate.

In order to stop Islamic extremists, those terrorists who would seek to destroy America and our allies, we must do whatever it takes and we must not blink, Charlie, in making those tough decisions of where we go and even who we target.

You know who else doesn't blink?
posted by EarBucket at 7:29 PM on September 12, 2008 [1 favorite]

The Real John McCain

John McCain vs. John McCain

Palin addresses the Alaska Independence Party convention.

Skip to 6:00 of this clip to hear Dexter Clark, vice chairman of the Alaska Independence party confirming that Sarah Palin was once a member of the AIP. Quoth the Dexter:

"Our current governor, we mentioned at the last conference, the one we were hoping would get elected, Sarah Palin, did get elected. ...... She was an AIP member before she got the job as a mayor of a small town -- that was a non-partisan job. But you get along to go along -- she eventually joined the Republican Party......" Clark goes on to talk about the need for AIP members to infiltrate the major political parties (around 8:45).

Also, abortions for some and little plastic flags for others.
posted by dejah420 at 8:02 PM on September 12, 2008 [3 favorites]

Would a broken-up USA really be a bad thing?

I'm in BC. I can see how a united West Coast could result in one helluva booming economy independent of the rest of the continent. In most ways, in my opinion, everyone from Los Angeles to Vancouver has a lot more in social common than California and North Carolina. And we have independent resource wealth. Why put up with their shit, when we can unite as our own Cascadia?

Likewise, Alaska+Yukon+NWT+Nunavut+Labrador can probably operate extremely successfully as an independent nation. And frankly, I don't really give a damn about the East of the continent. I mean, my Newfie neighbours are a great part of Canada, but I can certainly understand why they'd want to look after their own best economic interests. As for the American Evangel Terrortories, I'd be glad to be rid of them as a social force in my part of the world. Let the god-botherers have their turf.

Go Sarah Palin! AIP Unite!
posted by five fresh fish at 8:35 PM on September 12, 2008

5000!
posted by grouse at 8:42 PM on September 12, 2008

made you look
posted by grouse at 8:43 PM on September 12, 2008

If "life begins at birth," as popularly understood, then we have to pretend that a 10-pound kicking baby is a meaningless mass of lifeless tissue until it is exposed to air, at which point it magically turns into a cute, cuddly, precious human being. That a pregnant mother is fooling herself when she coos at the wiggling little baby on the sonogram, because it's really just a useless tumor that happened to grow in her body. This is plainly stupid.

As other people pointed out, it's not "birth" but rather "viability". If the baby is old enough to survive outside of the mother, then it can't be aborted.
posted by delmoi at 9:44 PM on September 12, 2008

Can't we all just concur with St. Thomas Aquinas and agree that life begins at the quickening?
posted by Kattullus at 9:56 PM on September 12, 2008

How much of this thread is dedicated to arguing with the unconvinceable?

in the last 12 hours? mostly, you

You don't get to go post in support of safe choice over on GodBlog dot com.

that's because they're fascists

and you want us to become a liberal version of that

go and start your own konolia free website if you don't like it - is stepfordopinions.com taken?
posted by pyramid termite at 10:07 PM on September 12, 2008

We're already a version of "that": at least two other past users are banned from the site. They, too, had nothing of value to contribute to the site. They were single-issue twits who were provided the opportunity to straighten out, and were then kicked out. I do not see a difference between konolia and bevets and ParisParamus.

But enough about me. And enough about konolia, her single issue, and Sarah Palin. Hell, enough of McCain, too: he's clearly not a well man.

What's Obama up to these days? He got people back to believing they can come together to bring America back to its former glory?
posted by five fresh fish at 10:48 PM on September 12, 2008

fff, give it up. Konolia may not be your cup of tea but she's civil and not a trouble maker. you're making the trouble, the rest agree to disagree. drop it.
posted by cell divide at 12:14 AM on September 13, 2008

I wouldn't mind seeing the US broken up. It is too big for accountability.

But, damn, FFF. If you have to go on an anti-Konolia rampage, there is MetaTalk.
posted by QIbHom at 4:42 AM on September 13, 2008

Sarah Palin baby name generator

Just call me Vise Peeper Palin.
Hey, wait, I think that's actually Sarah Palin's porn name!
posted by klausness at 4:48 AM on September 13, 2008

What's Obama up to these days?

Obama on Letterman (9/10/08): part 1 :: part 2 :: part 3
partial transcript

"Yeah, the failed policies of John McCain would be the pig."

Misleading Obama Headline of the Day

Obama speaks in Dover NH "I'm not going to start making up lies about John McCain . . . . I am not going to be distracted or dissuaded from making my case to the American people."
posted by anastasiav at 5:22 AM on September 13, 2008 [3 favorites]

Long story short, you're a liar. I've just proven so.

I apologize if I was unclear; I was intentionally presenting an extreme view. I said that I don't think anyone believes that, but that's the position we seem to be arguing from sometimes.

There's a lot of people piling on konolia in this thread, but I don't see anybody conceding to her that, yes, at some point in a pregnancy, abortion would be killing a baby, and it shouldn't be allowed.

Even though I'm sure that almost everyone here does believe that, and that is the current state of law in most places.

It's no wonder she can't understand where we're coming from.
posted by designbot at 5:24 AM on September 13, 2008

McCain Barbs Stirring Outcry as Distortions

"Harsh advertisements and negative attacks are a staple of presidential campaigns, but Senator John McCain has drawn an avalanche of criticism this week from Democrats, independent groups and even some Republicans for regularly stretching the truth in attacking Senator Barack Obama’s record and positions."

Campaign of Lies Disgraces McCain

"This nation is facing real challenges on the economy, health care, jobs and the ongoing wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. There are significant differences between how Sen. Barack Obama and Sen. John McCain would address them. But McCain's recent campaign ads suggest the most vital issues are whether Obama wanted to teach sex education to kindergarten children and whether he derided the Republican's running mate, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, by talking about lipstick on a pig.

McCain's straight talk has become a toxic mix of lies and double-speak. It is leaving a permanent stain on his reputation for integrity, and it is a short-term strategy that eventually will backfire with the very types of independent-thinking voters that were so attracted to him.

...The leader who says he would rather lose an election than lose a war now risks losing his reputation in an attempt to win the White House."

posted by ericb at 6:49 AM on September 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

On the Newshour last night Mark Shields called McCain dishonorable for his campaign tactics. I think that is about right. John McCain used to command some respect for rising above the fray of politics and now he is playing it as dirty and dishonorably as anyone has ever done.
posted by caddis at 7:26 AM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

I do not see a difference between konolia and bevets and ParisParamus.

Whereas I and a lot of other people do. Agreeing with the notion of (trying to) drop it here, though. Let's.

On the Newshour last night Mark Shields called McCain dishonorable for his campaign tactics. I think that is about right. John McCain used to command some respect for rising above the fray of politics and now he is playing it as dirty and dishonorably as anyone has ever done.

I do wonder if this is the setup for some sort of meltdown. I get the impression more that McCain truly sees himself as a great and honorable man than that he's spent seven decades pulling a pure snowjob; is he aware of the growing attack on that image, or is he shielding himself (or being shielded) from this blowback? Is he getting angry as hell behind the scenes, or is he slipping comfortably into this new suit?
posted by cortex at 8:13 AM on September 13, 2008

He seemed to be close to letting his anger show on The View.
posted by Artw at 8:23 AM on September 13, 2008

He seemed to be close to letting his anger show on The View.

I have to admit, I was pretty put off by the guy when he threw his tea in that woman's face, tore off his mic, and then stormed off the set, kicking over part of the backdrop on his way out. Very poor form.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:42 AM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

heh.

Pushing him on the lipstick thing just a few seconds more would have done it.
posted by Artw at 8:49 AM on September 13, 2008

Joe Biden prepares for the fight of his life
posted by Rumple at 9:08 AM on September 13, 2008

Joe Biden prepares for the fight of his life

AURGH, no!

Must ... unsee ...
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 9:23 AM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Election Forecasting
Paul Guercio of the Merlin Project discussed Timetraks of the candidates using Merlin, a software-based forecasting technology that offers predictive timelines. His associate Dr. George Hart suggested that Sarah Palin will drop out of the race and be replaced by someone like Lieberman. The timeline for Palin's run shows weakness, and she looks like a "flash in the pan," said Guercio. He foresees an Obama/Biden victory but that a big change will occur in their first term.
grain of salt required. (via)
posted by Sailormom at 10:23 AM on September 13, 2008

While relating celestial movements to human events has long been a controversial subject, MERLIN's track record of timely and accurate predictions speaks for itself. Notable forecasting successes include: the acquittal of O.J. Simpson, the scandals of the Bill Clinton presidency and the Presidential bid of Bob Dole, Leno's underdog triumph over Letterman, the emergence of JFK Jr., the demise of National Health Care, the Republican Revolution of 1994, the timetable for the breakup of the Soviet Union, the follies of the second Bush Administration, including the duration and chaotic aftermath of both the Gulf and Iraqi Wars, the continued survival of Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden, the resurgence of John Kerry and the failed Presidential bid of Howard Dean and many other timely events.

You know, if it weren't for the 1997 background pattern and the tables tables tables, this would be a lot more impressive.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 10:32 AM on September 13, 2008

You know, if it weren't for the crack cocaine this person is using, this would be a lot more impressive. Palin is not dropping out. I honestly don't know why people are wishcasting that one. The only way this rape-kit charging, bridge to nowhere, earmark lying, community organizer slamming soundalike will disappear is if you don't vote for her and McCain, and get everybody you can to do the same.

Throw your predictive models out of the window and go register a voter or inform the masses of uninformed people out there that we've gone on barking about for the last several thousand comments.

Your neighbors, your friends, your colleagues - talk to somebody about at least one issue, and see if you can then inform them of the insanity and nonsense that is McCain/Palin. Any one of a number of the videos above should make for jaw-dropping viewing for anybody who still has a brain left that just has been too busy to jump into the whirlwind of happenings.

Sometimes people just need a friend or someone they know to tell them "Look at this...wtf?!"

Nobody in the universe can explain away McCain actually Saying that the proximity of Alaska to Russia gives Alaskan government foreign policy experience. To hell with these models. For Americans, your country is at stake. For the rest of the world, yours is too if these crazy war-with-anybody-anywhere fools get elected.
posted by cashman at 11:01 AM on September 13, 2008 [3 favorites]

Palin camp clarifies extent of Iraq trip

Sarah Palin's visit to Iraq in 2007 consisted of a brief stop at a border crossing between Iraq and Kuwait, the vice presidential candidate's campaign said yesterday, in the second official revision of her only trip outside North America.

Following her selection last month as John McCain's running mate, aides said Palin had traveled to Ireland, Germany, Kuwait, and Iraq to meet with members of the Alaska National Guard. During that trip she was said to have visited a "military outpost" inside Iraq. The campaign has since repeated that Palin's foreign travel included an excursion into the Iraq battle zone.

posted by Mick at 11:54 AM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin is not dropping out.

I agree. There are enough Nixon-era "ratfuckers" on the McCain campaign (including Karl Rove) that they know how damaging it was for McGovern to drop Eagleton. There is no way you are getting the McCain campaign to do what George McGovern did. You'll have to trap them into make a completely different type of mistake.
posted by jonp72 at 12:14 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Ah, so the thread s l o w l y d r i f t s a w a y . . . .

I had to take a major news break when it became clear the following the hourly/daily ups and downs was not conducive to mental health. I'm encouraged by the direction it is all taking. Palin's test run with Gibson bodes ill for her in a debate with Biden; it seems like it will be easy to throw her off balance into desperate subject-changing. Her comment about Obama regretting not picking Clinton clearly shows that she is more interested in the race than what happens in the four years after, and she should be called on that.

And I certainly appreciate, where it happens, that the press is fighting back. Maybe in their post-election self-analysis phase they'll start actually debating their function of challenging public figures to be honest, as opposed to willingly serving as an extension of PR. Maybe they'll take seriously something like Brill's old 'pundit scorecard' and start holding commentators accountable for their words and predictions, as well as analyzing their intentions when they become clearly disingenuous (thanks, Noonan), and stop giving these guys a responsibility-free platform.

Still, with every voter who publicly claims to admire Palin without knowing who she is or what she stands for, I hold to my general belief that in the end we'll get whichever candidate the country deserves. We have unprecedented access to information and the ability to verify its quality, and this has revealed the true stubbornness of those who will hold onto a lie no matter how thin the thread. The only silver lining to the last eight years is that the (non-wealthy, at least) voters who have put the most faith in Bush have been the ones most screwed by his administration; if they want to buy into the idea that putting Karl Rove in a dress amounts to change, then they've pretty much got what's coming to them. I want to see the country go in a particular direction, but if it is not ready for that, you can't and shouldn't force it; I'm not opposed to the general decline of the U.S. if that represents a larger rejection of what we have allowed it to become. Of course, I'm lucky in that so far the effect on me personally has been minimal. I live in SF and make more money than ever; I'm legally married to my partner of 16 years, which I had never expected to happen in my lifetime; I'm comfortable enough to have voluntarily given up having a car (since 95) and no-pause showers (since last month); and I pay my taxes without complaint. I'm still bracing as best I can for the bill that is coming due very soon, the reality shock when we discover what the world looks like when resources (hopefully) become more equally distributed and we learn we're not the chosen people. That process is going to be very painful for the country, and I don't think we realize how ugly we have the potential to become. Yeah, it's not as inspiring to go from denial to resignation, as opposed to going from denial to hope, but it's going to get worse before it gets better.

So yeah, I hope there's a shift toward something positive, away from the self-delusion that has infected even our language, and that it helps us accept and weather what is coming. But if not, we've got to let the lessons be learned the hard way.
posted by troybob at 12:29 PM on September 13, 2008

In my own view, I admit that I don't know when life begins.

Strawman created by the anti-choice league to misframe the question. The question is actually when is a potentially human organism endowed with full rights. Always has been the question, always will be. Because you've been suckered into using their misframing doesn't mean we all have.

you deserve to be called stupid and batshitinsane because you hold a different view

I haven't called her or anyone else that, and I certainly agree it is inappropriate to do, but that 's not the discussion you and I were having, it's a misdirection. We were discussing how she and others employ intellectually dishonest argumentation that uses things like stawmen and misdirection. I give up.
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:02 PM on September 13, 2008

Throw your predictive models out of the window and go register a voter... Your neighbors, your friends, your colleagues - talk to somebody about at least one issue, and see if you can then inform them of the insanity and nonsense that is McCain/Palin.

Repeated for truthiness: there are a lot more people who don't vote, than are people who do vote for teh crazy. It's a lot more productive to go register a new voter, than to try to use facts and logic to persuade a self-blinding believer into changing her faith-based delusion.
posted by five fresh fish at 1:21 PM on September 13, 2008

Here are a few words and phrases that people are sucking the life out of this election cycle:

"in the tank"
"knockout punch"
"vetting" (I read someone using this to describe a story about McCain today)
"drank the cool aid"
"framing"
"concern troll"
"echo chamber"
"[group that may only have two people in it] demographic"

In no way am I claiming to have not used the above phrases myself.
posted by Bookhouse at 1:28 PM on September 13, 2008

Fiscal Conservative: Tax and Spend Liberal
posted by Rumple at 1:40 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

bookhouse, i've vetted the echo chamber for the framing of concern trolls in this echo chamber and i've given the knockout punch to the moron demographic who have drank the cool aid and put themselves in the tank for lipstick wearing pigs

what do i win?
posted by pyramid termite at 2:33 PM on September 13, 2008

better than that what did i say?
posted by pyramid termite at 2:36 PM on September 13, 2008

Forum sells 'Obama Waffles' with racial stereotype

"Activists at a conservative political forum snapped up boxes of waffle mix depicting Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama as a racial stereotype on its front and wearing Arab-like headdress on its top flap.

Values Voter Summit organizers cut off sales of Obama Waffles boxes on Saturday, saying they had not realized the boxes displayed "offensive material." The summit and the exhibit hall where the boxes were sold had been open since Thursday afternoon."
posted by madamjujujive at 2:43 PM on September 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

How Christian of them. Real Christians, Christians who actually try to live a life as Jesus prescribed, you know love, empathy, charity, they wouldn't do this stuff. It is funny how the people scream the loudest about their Christianity really fail to be Christian.

Anyway, I really came here to post a little thing I found on Americablog:

* If you grow up in Hawaii, raised by your grandparents, you're "exotic, different."

* Grow up in Alaska eating mooseburgers, a quintessential American story.

* If your name is Barack you're a radical, unpatriotic Muslim.

* Name your kids Willow, Trig and Track, you're a maverick.

* Graduate from Harvard law School and you are unstable.

* Attend 5 different small colleges before graduating, you're well grounded.

* If you spend 3 years as a brilliant community organizer, become the first black President of the Harvard Law Review, create a voter registration drive that registers 150,000 new voters, spend 12 years as a Constitutional Law professor, spend 8 years as a State Senator representing a district with over 750,000 people, become chairman of the state Senate's Health and Human Services committee, spend 4 years in the United States Senate representing a state of 13 million people while sponsoring 131 bills and serving on the Foreign Affairs, Environment and Public Works and Veteran's Affairs committees, you don't have any real leadership experience.

* If your total resume is: local weather girl, 4 years on the city council and 6 years as the mayor of a town with less than 7,000 people, 20 months as the governor of a state with only 650,000 people, then you're qualified to become the country's second highest ranking executive.

* If you have been married to the same woman for 19 years while raising 2 beautiful daughters, all within Protestant churches, you're not a real Christian.

* If you cheated on your first wife with a rich heiress, and left your disfigured wife and married the heiress the next month, you're a Christian.

* If you teach teach children about sexual predators, you are irresponsible and eroding the fiber of society.

* If, while governor, you staunchly advocate abstinence only, with no other option in sex education in your state's school system while your unwed teen daughter ends up pregnant, you're very responsible.

* If your wife is a Harvard graduate laywer who gave up a position in a prestigious law firm to work for the betterment of her inner city community, then gave that up to raise a family, your family's values don't represent America 's.

* If you're husband is nicknamed "First Dude", with at least one DWI conviction and no college education, who didn't register to vote until age 25 and once was a member of a group that hates America and advocated the secession of Alaska from the USA, your family is extremely admirable.

OK, much clearer now.

posted by caddis at 2:57 PM on September 13, 2008 [32 favorites]

“Hell yeah I’ll be your Transportation Secretary…”
posted by ijoshua at 3:11 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

In my own view, I admit that I don't know when life begins.

Strawman created by the anti-choice league to misframe the question. The question is actually when is a potentially human organism endowed with full rights. Always has been the question, always will be.

Yeah. Because even right before that baby is born, I still have more legally held rights than it. And I certainly have more rights than a clump of cells early in the pregnancy. I find it frightening that other people consider my life worthless once I am pregnant.
posted by agregoli at 3:17 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh, wow. Wow wow wow.

The NY Times has pulled out the stops and done some hardcore, kickass reporting on Palin's time in Alaska government.

This is going on the front page tomorrow.

I honestly don't know if there's damn thing that could come out that would change some people's feelings...but holy shit, there's a lot in this article.

Hard to pick out a favorite passage, but I got a laugh (and a shudder) from:

The Wasilla High School yearbook archive now doubles as a veritable directory of state government.
posted by neroli at 3:21 PM on September 13, 2008 [13 favorites]

This woman isn't just ignorant. She's REPELLANT.
Jessamyn, this gets to the book censorship/banning issue, too.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/14/us/politics/14palin.html?_r=1&hp=&pagewanted=all
posted by clever sheep at 3:25 PM on September 13, 2008

Report: Palin Did Not Visit Iraq

“Aides to Gov. Sarah Palin are scrambling to explain details of her only trip outside North America -- which, according to a new report, did not include Iraq, as the McCain-Palin campaign had initially claimed.

Palin made an official visit to see Alaskan troops in Kuwait in July of 2007. There, she made a stop at a border crossing with Iraq, but did not actually visit the country, according to a new report in the Boston Globe.

Earlier, McCain aides had said that Palin visited Iraq, and expressed indignation at questions about her slim foreign travel.

The campaign also said she had been to Ireland; that turned out to have been a refueling stop.

In her ABC interview, Palin said she had also been to Canada and to Mexico, where her advisers said she went on vacation.

Obama aides described the new revisions to Palin's account as part of a growing pattern of deception. ‘The McCain campaign said Governor Palin opposed the Bridge to Nowhere, but now we know she supported it. They said she didn't seek earmarks, but now we know she hired a lobbyist to get millions in pork for her town and her state. They said she visited Iraq, but today we learned that she only stopped at the border. Americans are starting to wonder, is there anything the McCain campaign isn't lying about?’ Obama campaign spokesman Tommy Vietor asked in a statement e-mailed to reporters.

A short time later, the Obama campaign circulated a new Bloomberg story that questions whether the McCain campaign has been sending out false crowd estimates.

On two occasions since Palin joined the ticket, McCain aides have cited law enforcement sources in claiming enormous crowds -- but law enforcement officials interviewed by Bloomberg denied having given such estimates.”

posted by ericb at 3:29 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Did Sarah Palin consider "rape kits" a form of abortion?
posted by ericb at 3:30 PM on September 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

This article pretty much lays out the Republican campaign strategy: Why McCain is going so negative, so often

Here's a pull-quote: "Every day not talking about the economy, the war and how to fix a broken system is a victory for McCain," said John Weaver, a former top strategist to the nominee who left the campaign last year. "They're going to ride it as long as they can and as long as the mainstream media puts up every ridiculous charge."

In other words, lie, lie, lie, lie, lie, and lie. Oh, and don't give a shit.
posted by mothershock at 3:48 PM on September 13, 2008

What I would give to be a fly on the wall at McCain headquarters right now.

Just reread the Times article. It's a pretty astonishing piece of investigative journalism.

Sarah Palin, you have just been VETTED.

(New York Times, I apologize for everything bad I've ever said about you.)
posted by neroli at 3:52 PM on September 13, 2008

I took two days off from reading this thread and flew 3000 miles from Pro-Palin Country (NC) to Vehemently Anti-Palin Country (So Cal.) This morning I picked the local weekly ("The Beachcomber") off my lawn and the front page ran a column that nearly drowned me in spittle-flecked outrage, basically "Who the #%$&@ does she think she is?!"

Yesterday, the L. A. Times ran an interesting story, Palin seeks gov.'s veto of port fees. It seems Palin has asked Schwarzenegger to veto legislation on his desk that adds a $60.00 fee to each container coming into the Long Beach and Los Angeles ports. The $400 million dollars raised would be used in anti-pollution projects. Palin wrote to California's governor, "For Alaskans, a very large percentage of goods shipped to Alaska arrive as marine cargo in a container." So in PalinWorld, Californians raising taxes to combat pollution--BAD. Palin taxing oil companies to increase her budget--GOOD

But then we are all getting some idea of how Palin likes to budget: Rape kits for victims, Town Museum, Library--BAD. Skating Rink, Sports Complex, Hiking Path in front of her home--GOOD
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 3:54 PM on September 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

From the NY Times article...
But careers were turned upside down. The mayor quickly fired the town’s museum director, John Cooper. Later, she sent an aide to the museum to talk to the three remaining employees. “He told us they only wanted two,” recalled Esther West, one of the three, “and we had to pick who was going to be laid off.” The three quit as one.

Wow, just wow...reminds me of the Joker in The Dark Knight. Those are some seriously poor management skills...
posted by Hutch at 3:58 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Good golly, is that NYT article amazing. Here it is in single-page format. The Wasilla high school yearbook/directory of government thing is creepy but not as creepy as this:

So when there was a vacancy at the top of the State Division of Agriculture, she appointed a high school classmate, Franci Havemeister, to the $95,000-a-year directorship. A former real estate agent, Ms. Havemeister cited her childhood love of cows as one of her qualifications for running the roughly $2 million agency.

Ms. Havemeister was one of at least five schoolmates Ms. Palin hired, often at salaries far exceeding their private sector wages.

I like cows, too! And I speak foreign languages. Dude, someone hire me to run the USDA or the State Department or something.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 4:03 PM on September 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

From the NYT article:

But in 1995, Ms. Palin, then a city councilwoman, told colleagues that she had noticed the book “Daddy’s Roommate” on the shelves and that it did not belong there, according to Ms. Chase and Mr. Stein. Ms. Chase read the book, which helps children understand homosexuality, and said it was inoffensive; she suggested that Ms. Palin read it.

“Sarah said she didn’t need to read that stuff,” Ms. Chase said. “It was disturbing that someone would be willing to remove a book from the library and she didn’t even read it.”

“I’m still proud of Sarah,” she added, “but she scares the bejeebers out of me.”

That's the first I've seen the actual title of a book she was interested in banning. Daddy's Roomate at Wikipedia, #2 on ALA's most banned books list.
posted by Rumple at 4:10 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

At least her logic is consistent:

Love of cows = qualification for Division of Agriculture post

View of Russia = foreign policy experience

It all makes a queasy, Through-the-Looking-Glass sort of sense.
posted by neroli at 4:30 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

If your wife is a Harvard graduate lawyer who gave up a position in a prestigious law firm to work for the betterment of her inner city community, then gave that up to raise a family, your family's values don't represent America 's.

True enough. We're not real big on personal sacrifice for the good of the community in this country.
posted by dilettante at 5:04 PM on September 13, 2008

So-Called Energy Expert Sarah Palin Doesn’t Know How Much Energy Her State Produces.
posted by ericb at 5:04 PM on September 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

"drank the cool aid"

It's spelled Kool-aid. I would never join a cult that used some cheap knock-off brand.
posted by jb at 5:05 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

"drank the cool aid"

This is obviously in reference to earmark spending.
posted by lostburner at 5:14 PM on September 13, 2008

It's spelled Kool-aid. I would never join a cult that used some cheap knock-off brand.

Interesting historical note: "Jones and several members argued that the group should commit "revolutionary suicide" by drinking cyanide-laced grape flavored Flavor Aid (often misidentified as Kool-Aid) along with a sedative"

still, I did mispell it.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:24 PM on September 13, 2008

Here's hoping that the 'Lying McCain' becomes a dominant characterization in people's heads.

"Oh, yeah, sure, he lies constantly, but he's so honorable!"

(also, 5000?)
posted by kaibutsu at 5:31 PM on September 13, 2008

Am I overreacting here? Am I crazy for thinking that the idea of Palin dropping out no longer seems so crazy? I mean, I wouldn't bet on it, but the New York Times just took her DOWN.

I can't imagine anyone sane reading that article and not coming away with the view that she's dangerously, monstrously corrupt.
posted by neroli at 5:35 PM on September 13, 2008

I can't imagine anyone sane reading that article and not coming away with the view that she's dangerously, monstrously corrupt.

The problem is that means it will only have an effect on people who 1). are sane and 2). read the article who 3). haven't already decided she's no good and 4). don't have a vested interest in seeing her elected. I have no idea who those people are.
posted by Bookhouse at 5:47 PM on September 13, 2008 [3 favorites]

Hmmmmm:

Guiding the Obama campaign is a conviction that Palin will either fade or implode. One aide privately predicted the Palin phenomenon would "go away."
posted by neroli at 5:47 PM on September 13, 2008

Interesting historical note: "Jones and several members argued that the group should commit "revolutionary suicide" by drinking cyanide-laced grape flavored Flavor Aid (often misidentified as Kool-Aid) along with a sedative"

See, knock-offs lead to death. Always stick with name brand cults.
posted by jb at 5:58 PM on September 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

That Times article is the shiznit. I haven't seen reporting like that since, basically, ever.
posted by designbot at 6:13 PM on September 13, 2008

From the NYTimes article:

Interviews show that Ms. Palin runs an administration that puts a premium on loyalty and secrecy.

Well then, based on the current administration, she is obviously qualified!
posted by me & my monkey at 6:15 PM on September 13, 2008 [3 favorites]

Wow. That NYT article was really just a bunch of short intros to future in-depth articles. Next week should be fun.

But will it be enough to hit 6k?
posted by ryanrs at 6:17 PM on September 13, 2008

Palin's test run with Gibson bodes ill for her in a debate with Biden; it seems like it will be easy to throw her off balance into desperate subject-changing.

Nope. It's just lowering the bar of expectations. All she has to do is be a bit better and she'll amaze everyone.

but the New York Times just took her DOWN.

Not everyone reads the NYT.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:19 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Bristol's REAL Babby Daddy!
posted by schyler523 at 6:33 PM on September 13, 2008

Not everyone reads the NYT.

Very true. But everyone in the media reads the NYT. And tomorrow morning, everyone in the media is going to see one of the most impressively reported critiques of a political figure published in the last decade (at least). This is the kind of story every journalist--whatever their private political leanings--wants to write.

It's going to be on the front page. Who in the press isn't going to respond?
posted by neroli at 6:35 PM on September 13, 2008

That NYT article was brutal. Good for them for actually printing it.

Are we at 5000 yet?
posted by 8dot3 at 6:38 PM on September 13, 2008

You don't want Palin to go away.

Oh yes I do. She's a classic example of someone who shouldn't be allowed anywhere near power. But then again, so is George Bush and look what happened there.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:42 PM on September 13, 2008

You don't want Palin to go away.

As long as she is around Obama is at least partially shielded from challenges to his preparedness for the Oval Office. The minute she goes (not that I think that likely even now) it will hit the fan and hit the fan hard.

Don't you dare tell me and the rest of us what we want or don't want for this country, for our communities, for our families, and for our future, konolia. I know exactly what I want, and I know exactly who the enemy is. And the enemy comes bearing a cross and a flag and a sneer.
posted by scody at 6:45 PM on September 13, 2008 [13 favorites]

ryanrs: "But will it be enough to hit 6k?"

A comment for every Wasillan!
posted by Rhaomi at 6:46 PM on September 13, 2008 [6 favorites]

If nothing else, can anybody read that and still claim Palin was "fully vetted"?

What looks worse--if the McCain camp claims they knew about all of this, or if they claim they didn't?
posted by neroli at 6:48 PM on September 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

What I took away from the article:

The Republicans wanted a George W. Bush; they got a Huey Long.
posted by neroli at 6:53 PM on September 13, 2008

You don't want Palin to go away.

Yeah we do. She's a power-hungry liar. She hires her buddies who have no qualifications, for high-paid positions. She charges sexual assault victims for rape test kits. She asks how to ban books. Her husband was in a group that wanted to secede from the union. She fires people who challenge her. She fires museum directors and librarians. She confirmed how unprepared she is, in the ABC news interview - the ONE interview she's given in the entire time she's been on the national scene. She's currently under investigation. She had tons of earmarks. She conducted state business in a manner that was done to avoid subpoena!

Yes, yes we do want her to go away. Your bluster about Barack Obama is nonsense. If she stepped down (she absolutely is not and will not go anywhere), McCain would be over. If you think that little wishcast will in any way slow the efforts to show the depth of the dangerously corrupt and unprepared Sarah Palin, you're kidding yourself.

I saw that tape where she talked about Hillary whining (and now she has the nerve to half-heartedly compliment Hillary in an attempt to win votes). She's not a moron. She's just completely unprepared to be a heartbeat away from the presidency, and her history is showing that she is a conniving, power-hungry, book banning maniac.
posted by cashman at 6:56 PM on September 13, 2008 [20 favorites]

Who in the press isn't going to respond?

You're asking the wrong question. The correct question is "Will this matter to those who are excited about voting for Palin?"

I believe the answer is no. I would very much like to be wrong about that, but I don't think I am.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:57 PM on September 13, 2008

Doncha all know that the New York Times is just the leader of the lying librul media? They probably take their marching orders from those MOOS-lims.

Lucky us, Ms. Sarah knows what to do with those MOOS-lims, right?
posted by QIbHom at 6:57 PM on September 13, 2008

Oh, please. Unless McCain comes out and says 'haha Palin was a practical joke we NEVER considered her a serious possibility', it should be impossible for him to mention Obama's inexperience as a drawbacks. Disturbingly, however, it seems possible that his 'base' would actually go right along with a backflip of that magnitude - it'd be an instant 'Sarah Palin has always been too inexperienced to be vice-president', and references to your own comments about 'but she has executive experience' would be met with blank stares.

If he actually does that, it will be the final proof that the Republicans don't give a shit about intelligent people, and are relying on the complete ignorance and gullibility of 'ordinary people'. And if he wins running that campaign, there will be no excuses for any person who voted for him. They will have exposed themselves as either pitifully stupid, or unforgivably dishonest.
posted by jacalata at 6:59 PM on September 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

Please repeat after me: McCain cannot win only with his base (the ones who believe the Times is the leader of the lying librul media). He needs to win independents and perhaps some of the dimmer and more self-defeating Democrats.

And the latter two groups... do NOT see the Times as librul lying media. That is why this matters.

And, as astutely noted above, this is just the opening salvo. Each one of those stories is very likely to come drip...drip...dripping out in full gory detail.

NYT, I salute you. No one-side-said, other-side-said crap. This took balls.
posted by clever sheep at 7:04 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

cell divide: "I think the new meme on Palin is clearly: Naked Political Ambition.

She doesn't care if she's ready or able to be President or VP.

She just WANTS it."

This.

Just take a look at this snippet from the NYT piece:

Laura Chase, the campaign manager during Ms. Palin’s first run for mayor in 1996, recalled the night the two women chatted about her ambitions.

"I said, 'You know, Sarah, within 10 years you could be governor,' Ms. Chase recalled. She replied, 'I want to be president.'"

posted by Rhaomi at 7:06 PM on September 13, 2008

You don't want Palin to go away.

Actually, a lot of us do, because we actually want people to be qualified for the office, even if that mean "it" will hit the fan.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 7:06 PM on September 13, 2008

You're asking the wrong question. The correct question is "Will this matter to those who are excited about voting for Palin?"

I agree with you about this too. Yes, absolutely, the people who are ga-ga about Palin will still be ga-ga--nothing will change their minds. But this story will get out there. And it's an embarrassment to the McCain camp. It makes them look foolish.

I'd like to believe that there are enough swing voters who are still on the fence. I know enough not to use my feelings as a measure for anything...but if the governor of my state was someone I loved and respected, and then I read this kind of article about them, I'd want them impeached.

But, like I said, I realize I may be overreacting and projecting.
posted by neroli at 7:12 PM on September 13, 2008

As long as she is around Obama is at least partially shielded from challenges to his preparedness for the Oval Office. The minute she goes (not that I think that likely even now) it will hit the fan and hit the fan hard.

Nope, that's done. See, if you choose a running mate who's completely unprepared for the job, you lose the ability to make cogent arguments about the preparedness of your opponent, no matter what happens to your choice. She was obviously good enough for McCain's thorough analysis, so either (a) he actually thinks she's qualified, in which case his judgment is suspect, or (b) he didn't bother to DO HIS RESEARCH, in which case his decision-making is questionable.

A fighter pilot, alone in his cockpit, can rely on snap judgment and pull off a stunt. A President can't.
posted by me & my monkey at 7:14 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Folks in Macomb Co. Michigan are not reading the New York Times.
posted by QIbHom at 7:20 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Each one of those stories is very likely to come drip...drip...dripping out in full gory detail.

You see, there I disagree. Or rather, I agree that there will be a lot of follow-ups, but that's not all that important. There's been a lot of drip-drip-dripping coming from Wasilla, and I don't think it's mattered much.

I think the Times article matters because it took a lot of drips and turned them into a coherent--and intellectually and emotionally powerful--STORY about what kind of politician Palin is.

(I think that's what the big newspapers have--and will always have--over bloggers. But that's another conversation.)
posted by neroli at 7:24 PM on September 13, 2008

That set of comparisons needs to be published in full-page newspaper ads.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:54 PM on September 13, 2008

Everybody knows the NYT are a bunch of pinko commies. Or so said my wife's personal trainers cousin who served in Iraq.

It's time to ignore Palin and take down McCain. He's the weak link here.

The fact that over the least three years McCain has rescinded nearly every principle he ever had and has become a total fake is enough. The guy has come out against his OWN immigration bill and his OWN campaign finance reform. That and remind people of his savings and loan scandal and the easy tie to the his opposition to financial system regulation tie that to the appointment of Chris Cox to t e SEC (AN insanely ANTI-REGULATION SEC chairman who saw nothing wrong with CDO's? An SEC that has been completely asleep at the helm- unless your one of the 19 financial institutions Cox/Bush/McCain has "protected" from "failure", coincidentally the same 19 big GOP contributors) all of which has led directly to the Mortgage Meltdown.
posted by tkchrist at 7:58 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

"least" er last.

eh. Who am I kidding.
After 5000 posts why bother correcting my typos anymore. I didn't do it after 30 posts.
posted by tkchrist at 8:05 PM on September 13, 2008

Folks in Macomb Co. Michigan are not reading the New York Times.

oh, bullshit - if they sell it in kalamazoo and battle creek they sure as hell are selling it in macomb co - and if it's sold, it's read

there's also this little internet thingie you may have heard of
posted by pyramid termite at 8:12 PM on September 13, 2008

McLobbyist.com
posted by schyler523 at 8:13 PM on September 13, 2008

It's time to ignore Palin and take down McCain. He's the weak link here.

You're right. After the Palin bubble bursts -- as it seems to be doing this weekend -- Obama will remain focused on McCain (as he has been). In the past few days the press/media have noted McCain's lying and called it out as being disgraceful.

The Democratic campaign's focus will remain on issues -- with a few hard-hitting ads here-and-there aimed at the more peripheral ephemera.

The chatter about Palin and her lack of qualification will be left to Biden and to surrogates on the cable "talking head" programs.

The blogospehere -- which includes us -- will continue to dissect and discuss every nuance far beyond that which the average American has time or attention to do.
posted by ericb at 8:17 PM on September 13, 2008

Somebody should have tshirts made:

My Browser
Survived The
Palin Thread
09/29/08
NEVAR RELOAD
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:19 PM on September 13, 2008 [8 favorites]

Bill O'Reilly Defends Obama, Slams Smears.
posted by ericb at 8:22 PM on September 13, 2008

Do you people not realize that once your own candidate gets vetted with that same fine toothed comb, you'll find quite a bit of interesting things as well?

For that matter, let me remind you that Hillary Clinton has has much more written about her than this-even to include being accused of being involved with Vincent Foster's death-and people still vote for her, still like her and still consider her qualified to govern.

So if you are looking to this article to take Palin down and give Obama back his lead, I think you need to think again.

First, it is totally correct that much of Palin's rabid base doesn't give a rat's tail end about the Times. For that matter the media has lost quite a bit of credibility so far in this campaign-at least with that crowd. And the Democrats' immediate and rather overblown attempts to immediately discredit her were so over the top that people were inclined to rush to her defense. If the Dems had been patient and then slowly came out with some of the stuff the Times article mentioned-not in a "gotcha" manner but in a "you might want to look at this " manner-they would have looked like the voice of reason. Obama had that going for him but his followers have almost messed that up for him.

I'm going to hold my judgement till the debates. But it will be interesting to see how this plays out. And I still actually have an idea that some if not all of what was in that article might actually get successfully refuted...

And slightly off topic-someone needs to tell Obama just why it is McCain has trouble with a computer keyboard....
posted by konolia at 8:23 PM on September 13, 2008

"I said, 'You know, Sarah, within 10 years you could be governor,' Ms. Chase recalled. She replied, 'I want to be president.'"

I'm starting to suspect that if she gets elected, McCain is going to meet with a suspicious snowmachine accident.
posted by mrnutty at 8:30 PM on September 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

For some reason this movie is coming to mind....
posted by konolia at 8:30 PM on September 13, 2008

And slightly off topic-someone needs to tell Obama just why it is McCain has trouble with a computer keyboard....

Oh, fuck. McCain can't use a computer because... he's a former POW!
posted by ericb at 8:31 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

6000?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:35 PM on September 13, 2008

Man, whether Obama wins or McCain wins, I can't wait to see what America is like in five years! I'm not entirely convinced Obama can pull it out of the fire, but if he does, that will be very interesting. And I am utterly convinced McCain will completely destroy the economy and wage reckless war: that, too, will be very interesting.

I can not fathom why not every citizen is not planning to vote. Clearly, it really does matter who runs the country. Everyone should be paying attention.
posted by five fresh fish at 8:37 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Yes, McCain Can Use Electronics

"The Drudge Report and several conservative blogs are working themselves into a lather over the new Obama ad noting that John McCain doesn't know how to use a computer.

Their claim is that McCain is simply unable to use a computer because of his POW injuries, citing a March 2000 article in the Boston Globe that states, with no supporting evidence...
'McCain's severe war injuries prevent him from combing his hair, typing on a keyboard, or tying his shoes.'
Of course, this directly contradicts what McCain and his campaign manager have said. McCain told the New York Times in July:
'I am learning to get online myself, and I will have that down fairly soon, getting on myself. I don't expect to be a great communicator, I don't expect to set up my own blog, but I am becoming computer literate to the point where I can get the information that I need.'
Campaign manager Rick Davis said in June that McCain would grab Blackberrys from reporters and tool around on the internet:
'He actually is, he always is grabbing people's Blackberrys on the bus. In fact, no reporter's Blackberry is safe from his prying eyes. He loves to tool around on the internet, he especially loves the videos that get produced that usually poke fun at him. I think that's his most entertaining part of the internet.'
And in a Politico interview, McCain said again that he uses a Blackberry and plans to go online:
'I use the Blackberry, but I don't e-mail, I've never felt the particular need to e-mail. I read e-mails all the time, but the communications that I have with my friends and staff are oral and done with my cell phone. I have the luxury of being in contact with them literally all the time.'
And if you don't believe their words, try these photos.

posted by ericb at 8:37 PM on September 13, 2008

Are we there yet?
posted by konolia at 8:41 PM on September 13, 2008

As to McCain's ability to use his hands and arms well enough to use electronics, this article addresses that and is accompanied by several pictures showing him using cell phones quite normally.
posted by dilettante at 8:44 PM on September 13, 2008

Venturing outside the echo chamber, it seems that Palin's governing record would give little comfort to those unBENDable single issue voters.
posted by gruchall at 8:44 PM on September 13, 2008

3000^th comment, 4000^th comment and 5000^th comment in this thread?

Can the script accurately inject comments this far down the stack?
posted by NortonDC at 8:44 PM on September 13, 2008

I would love to stop talking about Palin. But it seems the "real issues" make people drowsy. She was chosen to be a symbol, and now she's a symbol for both sides. If the only way to have a conversation about the differences between Barack Obama and John McCain is through the hand-puppet of Sarah Palin--well, it's better than not talking about those differences at all.

But in the spirit of elevated discussion, here's something good.

Bipartisan Energy Summit in the Senate yesterday. Rhode Island Senator Sheldon Whitehouse addresses a group of experts:

WHITEHOUSE: Gentlemen, we’re in the middle of a near total mortgage system meltdown in this country. We have a health care system that burns 16 percent of our GDP, in which the Medicare liability alone has been estimated at $34 trillion. We’re burning $10 billion a month in Iraq.

This administration has run up $7.7 trillion in national debt, by our calculation. And there is worsening evidence every day of global warming, with worsening environmental and national security ramifications. In light of those conditions, do any of you seriously contend that drilling for more oil is the number one issue facing the American people today?

[NINE-SECOND SILENCE]

WHITEHOUSE: No, it doesn’t seem so.

It's much, much better watching the actual video.
posted by neroli at 8:45 PM on September 13, 2008 [7 favorites]

Nearly. Post some more bullshit.
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 8:46 PM on September 13, 2008

Almost...
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 8:47 PM on September 13, 2008

Cortex, congratulations. You are going to wake to a new leading digit for the comment count on this thread. Again.
posted by 8dot3 at 8:48 PM on September 13, 2008

And slightly off topic-someone needs to tell Obama just why it is McCain has trouble with a computer keyboard....

Cornholio ... the photos showing McCain able to master the keypad of a mobile phone and that of a Blacberry dispel any doubt that he can master a keyboard. What's next in your arsenal of unsubstantiated support?
posted by ericb at 8:57 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Do you people not realize that once your own candidate gets vetted with that same fine toothed comb, you'll find quite a bit of interesting things as well?

as if that hasn't happened already

For that matter, let me remind you that Hillary Clinton has has much more written about her than this

let me remind you that she's been in the national eye since 1992 - sarah palin, no

even to include being accused of being involved with Vincent Foster's death

real class move repeating whacko right wing slander that's been discredited and ignored for years

you're a partisan hack and a brain dead one at that

First, it is totally correct that much of Palin's rabid base doesn't give a rat's tail end about the Times.

palin's base rabid? heh - you did not mean to write that, but you did anyway - it's good to see that you subconsciously recognize the rabidity of the politics you favor

And the Democrats' immediate and rather overblown attempts to immediately discredit her were so over the top that people were inclined to rush to her defense. If the Dems had been patient and then slowly came out with some of the stuff the Times article mentioned-not in a "gotcha" manner but in a "you might want to look at this " manner-they would have looked like the voice of reason.

some of us have this peculiar notion that the truth matters more than how some, not all, decide to present it - even so, at least the democrats aren't rabid, right?

And slightly off topic-someone needs to tell Obama just why it is McCain has trouble with a computer keyboard....

it's because he spent 5 1/2 years in hanoi poking out punch cards with pointy sticks
posted by pyramid termite at 8:57 PM on September 13, 2008 [3 favorites]

*Blackberry*
posted by ericb at 8:58 PM on September 13, 2008

*Bookhouse dives from 5010 comments*
posted by Bookhouse at 8:59 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I think this might have broken the lovely most recent comments only thingy.

Maybe I will write to Google and tell them I had to download Chrome specifically to read this thread.
posted by casarkos at 9:01 PM on September 13, 2008

Anyone see Tina Fey as Palin in the SNL intro today?

Lots of disabled people use computers. And his own campaign has never claimed that he couldn't use computers because of his injuries.
posted by delmoi at 9:15 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Do you people not realize that once your own candidate gets vetted with that same fine toothed comb, you'll find quite a bit of interesting things as well?

You honestly think the Republicans haven't already applied a fine-toothed comb? You can't possibly be that naive.
posted by me & my monkey at 9:22 PM on September 13, 2008

That SNL video didn't even last even 3 minutes on YouTube. NBC must have an intern parked there on Saturday nights.

Great open, but the Alaska Pete routine on Weekend Update sucked grizzlies.
posted by maudlin at 9:28 PM on September 13, 2008

Rick Steiner, a University of Alaska professor, sought the e-mail messages of state scientists who had examined the effect of global warming on polar bears. (Ms. Palin said the scientists had found no ill effects, and she has sued the federal government to block the listing of the bears as endangered.) An administration official told Mr. Steiner that his request would cost $468,784 to process.

When Mr. Steiner finally obtained the e-mail messages — through a federal records request — he discovered that state scientists had in fact agreed that the bears were in danger, records show.

I can't even count all the different ways that's unethical.
posted by neroli at 9:30 PM on September 13, 2008 [3 favorites]

Cortex, congratulations. You are going to wake to a new leading digit for the comment count on this thread. Again.

Not in bed yet. Heh.

My Browser
Survived The
Palin Thread
09/29/08
NEVAR RELOAD

This thread closes the day before my house does.
posted by cortex at 9:34 PM on September 13, 2008 [4 favorites]

Do you people not realize that once your own candidate gets vetted with that same fine toothed comb, you'll find quite a bit of interesting things as well?

What on earth are you talking about? Truly, what on god's green earth can you possibly mean with such a vapid comment?

Have you honestly not noticed that Obama has been vetted and vetted and vetted with a fine-tooth comb for the past 19 months? Did the endless Rev. Wright onslaught escape your sharp attention? Did the William Ayers insinuations manage to slip past the nets of your nuanced insight? Did the months of parsing a single comment by Michelle Obama as blatant anti-Americanism fall off your radar screen?

Look, you may not know that there is is actually, factually, a difference between 2 years of service at the state level vs. 7 years at the state level and 3 at the federal level.

You may not understand the difference between criticizing America in the service of working towards improving it and being associated with a party that advocates actual secession from the United States.

You may not believe that blatant cronyism and bullying, resulting in ethics investigations, are problematic.

You may not care that your candidate for VP admitted just a few months ago to not understanding the role of the office she is now running for, nor care that if she were to be elected, she would be the least experienced person to hold that office in the 20th century.

You may not be able to comprehend politics beyond a simple "yes/no" litmus test regarding your pet issue.

You may be untroubled by a series of demonstrable untruths (from visiting Iraq to accepting millions in earmarks). You may not mind the callous treatment of rape victims by charging them for their own exams, nor of the evident hypocrisy of cutting funds for pregnant teenagers so that they are deprived of the same support and services that her own daughter will receive.

All of this may indeed be true for you. That there are millions like you -- so proud of your blindness, so nurturing of your ignorance, so misguided in your anti-intellectual righteousness, so self-serving in proclaiming your humility, so content to dress your bullying in the trappings of piety, so fascistic (yes) in embracing and enforcing The Big Lie -- is this country’s deep shame and its increasingly dangerous curse.

But do not, under any circumstances, paint all of us with the same brush. You may crow about your inability to think critically, konolia, but you may speak for yourself.

And as for this...

I'm going to hold my judgement till the debates.

...all I can say is that McCain’s pathological lying must be catching, because you’ve never held your judgment on this or any other score.
posted by scody at 9:36 PM on September 13, 2008 [38 favorites]

Less than 8 minutes by my clock.
posted by pointilist at 9:41 PM on September 13, 2008

Scody, mostly what I do on this thread is give the rest of you a view of how the typical Republicans I know are responding to this campaign. Believe it or not I don't tell you all everything I am thinking.

I will say that from my vantage point that this election boils down to this: World views.

Not the issues, per se. Not the candidates, for that matter.

Just world views. One side sees the world one way. The other side sees something totally different.

It doesn't matter at this point what gets dug up on either side. Both sides will holler media bias. Both sides might be right. But the point is that the sides have been chosen.

I understand, meanwhile, that Palin is a mirror. People won't see the real Palin so much as they will see their own hopes and dreams-or fears and nightmares-reflected in what by now is a larger-than-life persona.
posted by konolia at 9:48 PM on September 13, 2008

From that Weekly Standard article that gruchall linked:

she's a potential Reagan. Like him, Palin has focused on a few big issues, while allowing others popular with conservatives to fall by the wayside. This brand of pragmatic conservatism worked for Reagan. It's worked for Palin too.

But:

Palin hasn't pushed cultural conservatism because it wasn't politically expedient, not because she didn't want to. "Almost all the time she has been governor has been totally taken up with ethics and oil," Mendel says.

Indeed, there once was a governor from a conservative state who was known for his ability to work with Democrats. His campaign theme was "compassionate conservatism," and his name was George W. Bush.
posted by cybercoitus interruptus at 9:54 PM on September 13, 2008

Scody, mostly what I do on this thread is give the rest of you a view of how the typical Republicans I know are responding to this campaign

Many of us read enough political blogs to know that, for instance, gullible Republicans were being fed that "McCain can't use a computer because he's a POW" load of garbage, so you're not really performing much of a service there.

Of course, once other people have taken the time to refute the nonsense you drag in here with well-sourced evidence to the contrary, as in this case, you could be performing a useful service by going back to some of those "typical Republicans" and explaining to them that they're wrong.

In fact, given the amount of bullshit you apparently hear on a regular basis, and the number of people here who patiently and exhaustively refute that bullshit, you could practically be a Snopes clearinghouse for your local community.

Do you ever do that?
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 10:01 PM on September 13, 2008 [7 favorites]

Speaking of nonsense, it wasn't the Republicans trying to tell me Palin was really Trig's grandmother.
posted by konolia at 10:05 PM on September 13, 2008

By the way...
posted by konolia at 10:11 PM on September 13, 2008

C'mon Konolia, either you were gullible enough to believe the McCain computer story, or you were just dragging the story in here on behalf of your gullible "typical Republican" friends. So which is it?
posted by Combustible Edison Lighthouse at 10:15 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

it wasn't the Republicans trying to tell me Palin was really Trig's grandmother.

And it wasn't the Obama campaign, either.

By contrast, for example, it is IS the McCain campaign that is LYING about Obama passing a law to mandate sex ed to five-year-olds.

Yes or no: do you understand the difference, konolia? Yes or no?
posted by scody at 10:15 PM on September 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

I will say that from my vantage point that this election boils down to this: World views.

I think for us on the "other side," that's true too.

And for us, it seems like one world view is: lying is OK if it gets you into power. And once you're in power, anything goes.

And the other world view is: Maybe there's another way to do it.
posted by neroli at 10:16 PM on September 13, 2008 [6 favorites]

Just world views. One side sees the world one way. The other side sees something totally different

Hoo boy, konolia, you've never spoken truer words. One side sees this world as ripe for plundering, sees civil liberties as totally transient and subject to the whims of the government, sees lying as the new way to politic, sees ignorance and an incurious mind as something laudable, believes that making the wealthy wealthier at the expense of the poor (because, after all, they're just poor because they haven't pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, after all is a morally just approach to economics, looks for any excuse to go to war, consequences and budget be damned, because The Lord Is On Our Side, and believes firmly that this world would be a better place if we all just believed exactly the same thing, gosh darnit.

The other side? Is voting for Obama.
posted by shiu mai baby at 10:25 PM on September 13, 2008 [8 favorites]

delmoi: "Anyone see Tina Fey as Palin in the SNL intro today?"

I caught it one Youtube less than two minutes before NBC disappeared it. Let me just say now that Fey nailed the accent.

Linking to another copy will be futile for the next few days, but in the meantime here's the transcript of it:

* * *

AND NOW A NONPARTISAN MESSAGE FROM GOV. SARAH PALIN AND SEN. HILLARY CLINTON

PALIN: Good evening, my fellow Americans! I was so excited when I was told Sen. Clinton and I would be addressing you tonight.

CLINTON: And I was told I would be addressing you alone.

PALIN: Now, I know it must be a little bit strange for all of you to see the two of us together, what with me being John McCain's running mate...

CLINTON: ...and me being a fervent supporter of Sen. Barack Obama... [points to lapel] as evidenced by this button.

PALIN: But tonight we are crossing party lines to address the now very ugly role that sexism is playing in the campaign.

CLINTON: ...an issue which I am frankly surprised to hear people suddenly care about!

PALIN: You know, Hillary and I don't agree on everything--

CLINTON: --anything!

CLINTON: I believe that diplomacy should be the cornerstone of any foreign policy...

PALIN: And I can see Russia from my house!

CLINTON: I believe global warming is caused by man...

PALIN: ...and I believe it's just God huggin' us closer!

CLINTON: I don't agree with the Bush doctrine...

PALIN: [laughs, shakes head] ...and I don't know what that is...

CLINTON: But Sarah, one thing we can agree on is that sexism can never be allowed to permeate an American election.

PALIN: So please, stop photoshopping my head on sexy bikini pictures!

CLINTON: And stop saying I have cankles.

PALIN: Don't refer to me as a MILF!

CLINTON: And don't refer to me as a FLIRJ... I Googled what it stands for and I do not like it.

PALIN: Reporters and commentators, stop using words that diminish us like "pretty", "attractive", "beautiful"...

CLINTON: "Harpy." "Shrew." ..."boner-shrinker."

PALIN: While our politics may differ, my friend and I are both very tough ladies. You know, it reminds me of a joke we tell in Alaska.

CLINTON: Oh boy...

PALIN: What's the difference--

CLINTON: Lipstick.

PALIN: --between a hockey mom--

CLINTON: Lipstick.

PALIN: --and a pitbull?

CLINTON: Lipstick.

PALIN: ...lipstick.

CLINTON: There you go.

PALIN: Just look at how far we've come: Hillary Clinton, who came so close to the White House, and me, Sarah Palin, who is even closer. Can you believe it, Hillary?

CLINTON: Hmmph! [smiles madly, stares at the camera] I CANNOT!

PALIN: It's truly amazing, and I think women everywhere can agree that no matter your politics it's time for a woman to make it to the White House!

CLINTON: NOOO, MINE! [slams podium] It's supposed to be mine. I'm sorry, I need to say something. I didn't want a woman to be president, I wanted to be president, and I just happen to be a woman! And I don't want to hear--

PALIN: [waves to the audience]

CLINTON: --you compare your road to the White House to my road--

PALIN: [waves again]

CLINTON: --to the White House. I scratched--

PALIN: [courtsies]

CLINTON: --and clawed through mud and barbed wire, and you just glided in--

PALIN: [mimics the photoshopped shotgun image]

CLINTON: --on a dog sled wearing your pageant sash and your Tina Fey glasses!

PALIN: I'm impressed... what an amazing time we live in. To think that just two years ago I was a small town mayor of Alaska's crystal meth capital, and now I am just one heartbeat away from being President of the United States! It just goes to show that anyone can be president.

CLINTON: Anyone! Anyone. Anyone!

PALIN: All you have to do is want it.

CLINTON: [cackles hysterically] Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah! You know, Sarah, looking back, if I could change one thing, I probably should have wanted it more. [laughs madly, pries board off of podium, throws it away]

PALIN: So, in the next six weeks I invite the media to be vigilant for sexist behavior...

CLINTON: ...although it is never sexist to question female politicians' credentials... please, ask this one about dinosaurs. In conclusion, I invite the media to grow a pair, and if you can't, I will lend you mine.

PALIN: And as we say in Alaska--

CLINTON: We say it everywhere.

TOGETHER: LIVE FROM NEW YORK, IT'S SATURDAY NIGHT!
posted by Rhaomi at 10:28 PM on September 13, 2008 [2 favorites]

Ohhh. I get it. Konolia's running out the clock just like Palin.

Buried under a trunkfull of lies, indefensible truths and complete horseshit the McCain camp is mired in, Konolia just hopes to do enough to keep distracting you and me from actually going out and doing something about it.

How many people in this thread have spent time (me included) crafting thoughtful responses only to have the vast majority of the very valid points be completely skipped over.

Now Konolia tries to string it out another few weeks by saying "wait until the debates".

Konolia is trying to distract you from going and talking to people in your community, at your church, at the store even. I'm going to go talk to that gentleman I referenced in my earlier post and inform him of all this information about Palin and the McCain camp response and see what he thinks. Because he thinks. He is rational and Republican, and not someone like this person who is just trying to stall and distract and stall and infuriate.

When you get up in the morning, tell somebody about McCain lying about crowd estimates, voting against that bill Biden proposed, about Palin and her lies, secrets, and book banning. I'm not even playing. Tell somebody.

Don't worry, I'm sure there'll still be enough people around here to craft more to-be-ignored responses to Konolia.

If people love that NYT article, buy a copy and hand it to somebody on the bus. Leave it in a breakroom or a restaurant. I used to read the USA today leftovers all the time in libraries or wherever. But quit with the Konoliathon. The responses aren't coming. Your rational arguments aren't even just falling on deaf ears, Konolia has you on mute.
posted by cashman at 10:28 PM on September 13, 2008 [6 favorites]

it wasn't the Republicans trying to tell me Palin was really Trig's grandmother.

some people saw the smoke and thought there might be a fire...

other people saw the smoke, and said there was no smoke, and it's shameful to even mention it!
posted by every_one_needs_a_hug_sometimes at 10:35 PM on September 13, 2008

How many people in this thread have spent time (me included) crafting thoughtful responses

*keeps hands down*
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:42 PM on September 13, 2008

SNL skit from tonight, still working as of two minutes ago.
posted by casarkos at 10:43 PM on September 13, 2008

I'm starting to suspect that if she gets elected, McCain is going to meet with a suspicious snowmachine accident.

At night, the ice-weasels come.
posted by Crabby Appleton at 10:44 PM on September 13, 2008 [3 favorites]

SNL thing: really, not funny. Or incisive. Or anything.
posted by neroli at 10:52 PM on September 13, 2008

"I don't vote for liars" Alaskans rally against Palin. Some good video.

"She lied about her position on earmarks and building the bridge," Anne Applegate-Scott said referring to the infamous Bridge to Nowhere. "She talks about her being a feminist but it is convenient feminism, it doesn't cost her anything."

One woman held a sign that read, "I'm Bail'in on Palin!" Another said, "Pro Woman, Anti-Palin." Another read, "What About Healthcare?"
posted by cashman at 11:01 PM on September 13, 2008

Yeah, they could have done so much more with the SNL skit. Though, Fey will be working that Palin schtick like mad for the next four years if the repubs make it into the White House.
posted by tomierna at 11:03 PM on September 13, 2008

It doesn't matter at this point what gets dug up on either side

How convenient for you. So, I guess you've chucked out the bit in the Bible about "false witness." You don't care what lies they tell, as long as you think they care as much about fetuses as you do.

I love that it is such an epic point in MeFi history, but my wheezing PowerBook is rendering my typing at the rate of 1 character per second.

I suggest you use a text editor, then just copy and paste. Works for me. Chrome actually lets me type comments, but Firefox is having the same problem you're seeing.
posted by me & my monkey at 11:07 PM on September 13, 2008

Speaking of nonsense, it wasn't the Republicans trying to tell me Palin was really Trig's grandmother.

The Republicans/McCain/Palin camp were the ones who told Reuters that Bristol was 5-months pregnant to counter the DailyKOS investigation into the maternity/paternity of Trig.

Rumors from Alaska were "alive-and-well" (e.g. Bristol's absence from high-school for 5 - 8 months due to "mononucleus, etc."), enough for the eventual disclosure that 16/17 y.o. Bristol had conceived "out-of-wedlock" and had "chosen" to "keep the child." The official press release said that Mom and Dad supported her "decision." Decision = CHOICE!!!
posted by ericb at 11:20 PM on September 13, 2008

I don't know about your Powerbook, but I remain amazed at how well this 5,000 plus comment thread loads into just about any computer including a decade old quite underpowered one (it does have gobs of memory though, that being the easy upgrade). The old longboat threads used to really pull things down but that probably had a lot to do with the tons of silly images.
posted by caddis at 11:29 PM on September 13, 2008

Anyone know if Palin has an position on the Treaty of Westphalia?
posted by felix betachat at 11:48 PM on September 13, 2008 [1 favorite]

Brilliant suggestion, m&mm, thank you. I will definitely try that from here on out.

(Although I am also hoping that someone will use the most recent NYT article as a launching point to craft a new Palin MeFi thread, because all the text editors in the world can't help the 8-minute load time I'm seeing here. Also, this thread makes the lack of a Mac version of Chrome particularly painful.)
posted by shiu mai baby at 11:53 PM on September 13, 2008

Anyone know if Palin has an position on the Treaty of Westphalia?

I think she has a position on a treaty which involves Rice Krispies, Marshmallows and Butter.

Oh, and when looking Westphalia she swears she can see Russia!

Makes her qualified for V.P. -- after all she has an extensive background in Foreign Affairs, etc.
posted by ericb at 11:58 PM on September 13, 2008

Wow this thing is long.
posted by jeblis at 11:58 PM on September 13, 2008

Wow this thing is long.

That's what she said!
posted by ericb at 12:01 AM on September 14, 2008

Wow this thing is long

That's what she ... No. no. no.
posted by mrnutty at 12:01 AM on September 14, 2008

That's what she ... No. no. no.

That's what *he* said.

mrnutty -- what you drinking? It's on me. Wink, wink. ; )
posted by ericb at 12:06 AM on September 14, 2008

I still actually have an idea that some if not all of what was in that article might actually get successfully refuted...

Nothing more than wishful thinking. Palin is as thin as they say, but for the election it matters not. The liberals will vote Obama, the conservatives Palin (not McCain) and the so called independent voters are really torn. McCain used to be a maverick, but now he is GW's bitch. Barack is inspiring, but you know his skin is a bit dark. Whatever, Palin is just fucking trash. The media won't touch that, but this boils down to the Harvard educated elite versus a magnetic hockey mom who seems to have barely graduated college. Morons always make better presidents than elitist bastards. Weren't the founding fathers all morons too? Oh wait, they went to Harvard. Andrew Jackson was the "real american" but then he went down as one of the worst presidents ever, only to have GW save his ass and elevate him to -1.

Nevertheless, this is not an election between Palin and Obama, but between McCain and Obama. Where is McCain these days anyway. Why is he afraid to give an interview? Why is he such a pussy? We don't want no pussy for president. If he can't handle Whoopi he can't handle Vladamir. We need someone who is actually smarter than Vladamir, and that is Barack.
posted by caddis at 12:14 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

It is astonishing that no has bothered to make a new, coherent Palin thread.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:22 AM on September 14, 2008

Thanks, kaibatsu, for making this thread just that little bit more painful to read!
posted by grouse at 12:24 AM on September 14, 2008

That was an asshole move, kaibutsu.
posted by ryanrs at 12:37 AM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]

Re the Treaty of Westphalia: Didn't that kind of shenanigans get someone a timeout once?

One of the great things about this record-breaking thread is that we've all basically stayed on-topic throughout (although I myself have been guilty of trying to point out some of the Christian/Republican hypocrisy, which is an exercise in futility when dealing with people who refuse to think like rational human beings).

But, my point is, let's continue to try to stay on-topic instead of mucking up the waters with stunt posting.
posted by amyms at 12:37 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

I understand, meanwhile, that Palin is a mirror.

No, I think most of us know the difference between looking into a mirror and being distracted by a shiny object.
posted by Grangousier at 4:53 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

Don't know if it will make the grade and survive, but I took it as my civic duty to start a new Palin-McCain thread with a new post on the blue because much as I love this thread, it is getting to be too much trouble to refresh.
posted by madamjujujive at 5:36 AM on September 14, 2008 [4 favorites]

Just world views. One side sees the world one way. The other side sees something totally different

well, that's moral relativism for you, isn't it? - it's interesting to hear an argument like that from a fundamentalist - inconsistent, but interesting
posted by pyramid termite at 5:39 AM on September 14, 2008

Don't know if it will make the grade and survive

Don't see why not, it's well written and topical.

last post!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:09 AM on September 14, 2008

5058.

Wow, I left this thread like a week ago. And it has doubled in size.

Like the federal deficit during the same period, once you add the Freddie and Fannie tabs.
posted by fourcheesemac at 6:20 AM on September 14, 2008

I will say that from my vantage point that this election boils down to this: World views.

And this is why Palin's so frightening. "Worldview" is evangelical code--the people who use it are people who are simultaneously capable of believing that America is a Christian nation founded on the Bible and that Christians are a desperate minority, persecuted by the evil secular American state. Fred Clark and Dan Radosh have good background here.

When I heard Palin use that word, it sent a chill down my spine. George W. Bush pretends to be a good conservative evangelical Christian, but all the evidence points to his not being particularly religious. He and his advisers are happy to pay them lip service in public, but call them "nuts" and "suckers" behind their backs. But Palin's the real deal, and if you like not living in a theocracy, that ought to scare you off your ass and down to the Obama campaign office.
posted by EarBucket at 6:51 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

kaibatsu, don't do that.
posted by cortex at 6:54 AM on September 14, 2008

kaibutsu too.
posted by cortex at 7:29 AM on September 14, 2008

What did he do?
posted by delmoi at 7:41 AM on September 14, 2008

It starts with "p" and rhymes with "toasted the Treaty of Westphalia".
posted by cortex at 7:47 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

delmoi, he posted the entire Treaty of Westphalia - as if the thread weren't loading slowly enough as is.
posted by madamjujujive at 7:47 AM on September 14, 2008

Tina Fey as Sarah Palin on SNL. You each owe me twenty bucks.
posted by ColdChef at 7:50 AM on September 14, 2008

pyramid termite, I was referring to the women in the Times UK article referred to above who just felt like Palin was like them, so they'd switched to supporting McCain.

I haven't been in every store in Macomb Co., but I have been in most of the yuppier stores, and I haven't seen the NY Times for sale. You can get home delivery there, and it is in the libraries.

But, the people who will read the NYT are not the people who are swing voters. Those folks aren't reading that silly east coast newspaper. Most of them probably aren't reading any newspaper.
posted by QIbHom at 7:58 AM on September 14, 2008

Now where I am going to find a copy of the treat of Westphalia?

Seriously, Wasilla Alaska could be renamed "West Failure."

Just saying.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:02 AM on September 14, 2008

Oh, it was a treaty. I thought you said "treat."

Never mind.
posted by fourcheesemac at 8:05 AM on September 14, 2008

Right about now, the subject of Palin feels like lumpy oatmeal that you're forced to eat everyday by some stern authority figure outta Oliver Twist.

yet i can't stop loading THE THREAD.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:06 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

BB, I think you've conflated "please sir, can I have some more" with "thank you sir, can I have another".
posted by cortex at 8:17 AM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]

You know who else had no access to the Treaty of Westphalia - for 5 1/2 years?
posted by lukemeister at 8:57 AM on September 14, 2008

Konolia: You know what, I freely confess I don't know all there is to know about why we went to war only that we have been told it was to keep us from having terrorist strikes here at home.

I do however believe in the concept of a just war-better minds than mine can argue whether or not Iraq and Afghanistan fit that bill.

I'm sorry I'm late to the party in bringing this point up. I've been reading for days, and I keep rolling this point over in my head . . .

Konolia, how on earth can you call yourself an American and be ignorant about a war of aggression by our country? How can you in good faith call yourself a good christian and be okay with thousands of people dying, period. Because its a just war? Is there some where in the bible I missed where it says "Thou shall not kill, except when its politically advantageous"? Did I miss where Jesus said "Sure, killing some people is okay." You're worried about living in a country that allows abortions to remain legal, but massive slaughter of women and children in another country is something you don't question? And you haven't even bothered to find out if it actually is a so called just war? Its not like there isn't just piles upon piles of information on the subject, and the unbiased inquiries are pretty clear that there was no tie to 9/11 and that Saddam posed no threat to the US.

We as Americans have a duty to question our leaders. And a duty to the men and women that serve to guarantee we don't send them in harms way without a real need. It's what we owe them for bravely standing up to protect our country. We have a duty as Americans to ensure that not one drop of their blood is spilled for frivolous reasons or political gain or to line someone's pocket. It is our duty as American Citizens to make sure our leaders aren't lying to us when our sons and daughters, brothers and sisters, are sent to die. And when they do engage in war, god forbid, that they are guaranteed the best leadership to keep them out of harms way. And all you can say is "hurf durf, I don't know much about this so it's A-OK in my book!"

Questioning our leaders is fundamental to our democracy, and yet you and your ilk sit high and mighty being spoon-fed lies calling yourselves patriots. That, by in far, has to be the biggest accomplishment the Right has made - to suggest that accepting anything their government says is a true American, while those that follow in the footsteps of the founding fathers are the treasonous, un-American terrorists because they want American to remain great and continue to fight for that goal.

Fuck that. I am an American, I am a patriot and I will continue to be the voice of dissidence while you sit back and praise a war mongering presidential nominee and his lying, inept side-kick, all because your side told you to. Just don't think about it.

I can only hope come this November that the real Americans come out and take back this country. Because everything won't be alright after McCain nukes Iran.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 9:00 AM on September 14, 2008 [25 favorites]

Mostly what I do on this thread is give the rest of you a view of how the typical Republicans I know are responding to this campaign.

I think it was established some time back that most republicans are straight up morons. I'm not sure why we need to keep making this point. I guess this thread is so long now we need to repeat ourselves.

The people that think Palin isn't a straight up crony small town ignorant fuck up are probably the same people that still give Bush good approval ratings-- "I lost my house and my job, but gays still can't get married? Fuck yeah. USA! USA!"
posted by chunking express at 9:20 AM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

Sinfest has a kick-ass comic about Palin versus Obama. It's been rocking all week, actually.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:23 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

Scody, mostly what I do on this thread is give the rest of you a view of how the typical Republicans I know are responding to this campaign.

Remind me why we're not supposed to believe Republicans are retarded?
posted by five fresh fish at 9:39 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

How can you in good faith call yourself a good christian...

Why does she need to do so in good faith?

I talk smack all the time.
posted by chunking express at 9:45 AM on September 14, 2008

BB, I think you've conflated "please sir, can I have some more" with "thank you sir, can I have another".

It's not nice to talk smack about boingboing OR blue_beetle.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:01 AM on September 14, 2008

Remind me why we're not supposed to believe Republicans are retarded?

They win, sometimes.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:04 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

As an aside: I am way ready for this thread to roll into a new one. I love that it is such an epic point in MeFi history, but my wheezing PowerBook is rendering my typing at the rate of 1 character per second. Which is exactly as much fun as it sounds.
posted by shiu mai baby at 1:35 AM on September 14 [+] [!]

I had this problem too, but I've found that if you type a few characters and then preview, you can type the rest of the comment normally on the "post a comment" version of the page. But then, I am running Opera. Sucks up all my ram, but runs fast.
posted by jb at 10:16 AM on September 14, 2008

In Opera, it is easiest to temporarily disable javascript (hit F12 and click on "enable javascript" to uncheck it"). The problem with the slow typing, at least on my computer, is because of the live preview and this disables that.
(Moving to the new thread is even faster though).
posted by davar at 10:47 AM on September 14, 2008

Remind me why we're not supposed to believe Republicans are retarded?
They win, sometimes.

In all honesty, that just shifts the question from the individual level to the national level.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:48 AM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

Konolia, how on earth can you call yourself an American and be ignorant about a war of aggression by our country?

I never said I was ignorant.

I said I didn't know ENOUGH.

I live near Fort Bragg. Close enough so that when there is artillery practice I can hear it, and sometimes even my windows rattle.

I hear a lot about why we are there. I hear a lot from people who have BEEN there.

I know that I do not have enough info re whether or not we should have gone. AT the time I was truly torn.

I DO know two things. First, we have had no terrorist attacks on this soil since 9/11.

Second, we ARE over there now. We HAVE to finish what was started. Period. Or a lot MORE innocent people will die.

Period.
posted by konolia at 11:46 AM on September 14, 2008

Westfalia asshattery - flagged...that's just bullshit kai.

SNL opening video can be seen on the NBC site....but apparently not the full episode, which is sad because I wanted to see it. It's not on the torrent sites either. Sadness.
posted by dejah420 at 11:57 AM on September 14, 2008

Second, we ARE over there now. We HAVE to finish what was started. Period. Or a lot MORE innocent people will die.

I have to assume you are talking about the other thread.
posted by dirtdirt at 12:05 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

I never said I was ignorant.

you don't have to

I said I didn't know ENOUGH.

and yet you've had days, no, years, to learn more
posted by pyramid termite at 12:47 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

I hear a lot about why we are there. I hear a lot from people who have BEEN there.

All those folks sat in on the President's policy meetings, right? Because otherwise, they don't know FUCK ALL any more than anyone else. They just happen to be the ones doing all the work, and all the dying.

I left active duty just in time to miss Gulf War I. My coworker has gone to Iraq three times, and may get a fourth chance if he's really lucky. Neither of us know anything about WMDs in Iraq, though. Oh, that's right, there weren't any! He's so far to the right, he's ready to switch from Republican to Fascist, and he thinks Bush is an idiot and Iraq is a clusterfuck.

I DO know two things. First, we have had no terrorist attacks on this soil since 9/11.

And my rock has prevented tigers from attacking me since 9/11.

Clinton must have been a GREAT president, because NO attacks on our soil happened while he was in office.

Second, we ARE over there now. We HAVE to finish what was started. Period. Or a lot MORE innocent people will die.

What does that even mean? Bush already said "Mission Accomplished." Who are we supposed to be fighting, exactly? We sent our military - the best in the world, in my opinion - with no clear mission other than defeat the Iraqi government and army. No one in the White House gave ANY THOUGHT to what should happen after that. The world's greatest military became a sub-par police force. If you care at all about the military, you should be very angry at the idiots who lied to the American people and sent them to war for false reasons, who didn't send enough of them to hold the ground they fought over, and who couldn't be bothered with figuring out how to get them out.
posted by me & my monkey at 1:06 PM on September 14, 2008 [6 favorites]

How many terrorist attacks were there on the US before 9/11? That weren't by American citizens (McVey and crew, Aryan Nations types, Confederate sympathizers, Native peoples we attacked first, etc.)?

Ok, now subtract all those that were not by drunken Irish-Canadians, and we've got, what, one?

One before, one after, if my memory and math are correct.

So, where's Bin Laden again?
posted by QIbHom at 1:52 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

Maybe we have had no terrorist attacks in America since 9/11/01 because that one accomplished everything the terrorists wanted done with America. The train attacks in Madrid and London occurred while Spain and Great Britain were getting OUT of Iraq. As long as our armies are killing people in Asia, the terrorists will be happy with us and we'll be safe here at home. An obvious logical extension to the "keeping us safe" theory, because Occams' Razor is double-edged.
posted by wendell at 3:32 PM on September 14, 2008

Drunken Irish-Canadians?
posted by lukemeister at 4:36 PM on September 14, 2008

*looks around*
*doesn't see cortex*

$20, same as in town.
posted by cgc373 at 4:53 PM on September 14, 2008

Twenty bucks, same as in—

DAMMIT
posted by cortex at 5:02 PM on September 14, 2008

I refuse to pay $20 for drunken Irish-Canadians. No more than 5 euros per. Oh, wait...
posted by lukemeister at 5:18 PM on September 14, 2008

Yikes!
There should be a metafilter for this thread
posted by derekpaco at 5:23 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

Sorry, lukemeister, I had it bacwards. Although I could swear there was at least one drunken raid going the other way, involving a ship of some kind, perhaps around Lake Erie.

This is why I'm not qualified to be vice-president, despite growing up able to see Canada from my house (slight exaggeration).
posted by QIbHom at 5:29 PM on September 14, 2008

I just wanted to say two things. First, I just became another first-time campaign donor--for Obama , of course (though I've been talking about it for awhile, and also plan to contribute to some local and state races this time around). Then I went back and bought about $50 in buttons too.

Second, it's really not so bad down here in terms of performance. The typing is a teeny bit slow, but it's worth it just to put my name on this thread.
posted by jepler at 5:53 PM on September 14, 2008

Sure, leave for your shiny new Palin thread. But I knew you back when you commenting in 5000k threads, so don't pretend you've got all these new jokes and snark.

I KNOW where you posted last week.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:26 PM on September 14, 2008

I can see Canada from here, technically. (Canada starts a few miles out in Lake Erie).

I CAN HAS MOAR STATE DEPARTMENT JOBZ PLEASE?
posted by bitter-girl.com at 6:27 PM on September 14, 2008

I DO know two things. First, we have had no terrorist attacks on this soil since 9/11.

wrong. anthrax. everything you say here is easily refuted. smarter people would be embarrassed, if they were in your shoes.

You know what, I freely confess I don't know all there is to know about why we went to war

well, you do seem to have quite a bit of time to dig up pro-Republican false information from the Internet (the "McCain can't use a computer" lie is a particular shameful example), why not invest a tenth of that time in reading up on stuff, like newspapers? the arguments for and against war have been vastly examined and written about since the summer of 2002. unless you're lying again, and you really haven't read up about that topic -- you've been lazy on an issue of vital importance for your country and the world. laziness breeds ignorance, among other evils.

there are also many books about that topic. I'm sure your local library has many of them. they're a bunch of sheets of paper covered in print on both sides, put on top of each other and bound together and held by two little pieces of cardboard (unless the front and back cover are softer, they're called "paperbacks"). they might have colorful covers. you open them to page 1, and you read from there. it's fun, I swear. it's like a website, only printed out.

Then he had the people who did it found, arrested, and put in prison. What a pussy.

you forgot Oklahoma City. Tim McVeigh, all-American boy, SO not a Muslim, patriot, veteran. the Clinton administration tried him and put him to death. it's not like he's currently hiding out in some cave in Alabama. or in konolia's broom closet.
posted by matteo at 6:36 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]

I can see my house from here. Wait, I'm IN my house. THE CALL IS COMING FROM INSIDE THE HOUSE!
posted by wendell at 6:37 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

Opera still ticks along just peachy on this thread. I should shut it down, then reopen to just this page...
posted by five fresh fish at 6:47 PM on September 14, 2008

QIbHom, Without you, I never would have learned that Fenians wearing IRA buttons invaded Canada in 1866. That has made this thread worth it.
posted by lukemeister at 6:51 PM on September 14, 2008

I miss this old place *sob*
It was so homey, so cozy - it's so strange and scary out there. So cold. Why did I ever leave?
Please don't hate me.
posted by madamjujujive at 6:56 PM on September 14, 2008

Chewed up 25% CPU time while hauling down the new page, went from 31MB to 88MB real memory; currently using 510Mb virtual memory. Sitting around 5% CPU when idle; and when i type a long line and ramble on, sure, it hits 95% CPU. When typing, there is a noticeable lag, but it's keeping up quite nicely.

Latest Opera, OS X Tiger.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:03 PM on September 14, 2008

According to “Sarah,” a biography by Kaylene Johnson, Palin had got into politics after she befriended the man who was then mayor and his police chief at a step-aerobics class. She made them her allies and ran for City Council. Then she challenged them for control of City Hall, and drove them out. As she purged her former friends and patrons, she denounced them as “good ol’ boys,” although her takeover of Wasilla had been aided from the start by Alaska’s Republican Party establishment.
posted by lukemeister at 7:17 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

"although it is never sexist to question female politicians' credentials ... please, ask this one about dinosaurs. In conclusion, I invite the media to grow a pair, and if you can't, I will lend you mine."

I love you, fake Hillary.
posted by onlyconnect at 7:23 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]

Man, I managed to stay away fro two whole days.

In other news, my freind and I are still not seeing the ZOMG I'M SOOO FOR SARAHHHHH! here in the breadbasket.

She and I are at opposite poles politically, and there's some stuff we just don't talk about, like creationism/evolution. We kinda skirt some other issues as well.

She's a research junkie, and so she's fired up the old browsers and gone to work. She's started to send me stuff that Obama's been saying/doing, and has come to admire his research/geeky style. And his graciousness. And she called Gov. Palin "Barbie" before I did.

She's also looked at the smear campaigns on both sides and proclaimed them irrelevant - basically issues too small to bother with. Now, I sure don't see one "side" as equivalent to the other, but hey, it's a conversation.

She quizzed me on why I'd not vote for McCain, because he's often voted with the Democrats before. I said sure he has, just not lately. McCain-Feingold was his last stand. She said, "I can see that. I was afraid that you were like another one of my freinds just over reacting to the negative ads coming from the Republicans without realizing everyone does it."

We think, we read, we respect each other, and we talk. There's hope, y'all.
posted by lysdexic at 7:26 PM on September 14, 2008 [2 favorites]

For some reason this movie is coming to mind....

I was thinking more of this one...
posted by kirkaracha at 7:31 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

wrong. anthrax.

And at least one attempt at suicide bombing a women's clinic. In this case, by driving a car into it that failed to explode.

And at least one campaign of burning black churches down.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:40 PM on September 14, 2008 [1 favorite]

I DO know two things. First, we have had no terrorist attacks on this soil since 9/11.

May 2002: May: Luke Helder injures 6 by placing pipebombs in mailboxes in the Midwest. Motivation to protest government control over daily lives and the illegality of marijuana and promotion of astral projection
July 4, 2002: An Egyptian gunman opens fire at an El Al ticket counter in Los Angeles International Airport, killing two Israelis before being killed himself.
October 2002: John Allen Muhammad and Lee Boyd Malvo conduct the Beltway Sniper Attacks, killing ten people in various locations throughout the Baltimore-Washington Metropolitan Area from October 2 until they are arrested on October 24.
August 28, 2004: Shahawar Matin Siraj and James Elshafay are arrested for planning to bomb the 34th Street–Herald Square subway station in New York City during the 2004 Republican National Convention.
March 3 2006: Mohammed Reza Taheri-azar, an Iranian-born graduate of the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, drives an SUV onto a crowded part of campus, injuring nine.
August 10 2006: A major anti-terrorist operation by British Police disrupts an alleged bomb plot targeting multiple airplanes bound for the United States flying through Heathrow Airport, near London.
April 16 2007: Seung-Hui Cho kills 33 people, including himself, in the Virginia Tech massacre, the worst civilian shooting spree in United States history and the worst case of mass murder in the United States since 9/11. (Note: this may be commonly considered a general massacre and thus included in the List of massacres, but there had been several hints of Cho's attempt to kill, including a manifesto tape to NBC News describing his motives — an attempt to terrorize).

And if I were you, I'd include 9/11 on that list since 3,000 people died under Bush's watch and he was warned about it repeatedly in advance.
posted by furtive at 8:10 PM on September 14, 2008 [11 favorites]

"For some reason this movie is coming to mind...."
posted by wendell at 8:25 PM on September 14, 2008

[...]we talk. There's hope, y'all.
posted by lysdexic at 10:26 PM on September 14 [+] [!]

I've been talking to my mom, a life-long Republican who refused to talk about G.W.B. with me in 2000 and 2004, because we had so many arguments about him. She is more open this year and has been very interested in the Palin stuff. I told her that my fundie sister-in-law just lurrrrrves Sarah Palin (but of course! very much in the way that fundie father-in-law lurves Britney Spears because she is just a down home country girl) and my mom said, "How is that two people who have such opposing viewpoints are both Republicans? Maybe it is time I registered as an Independent." You see my mom has an open mind. She asks questions and she isn't afraid to challange her own beliefs. So at 71 she might just be ready to change political affliations.

On the other hand, there is my apolitical husband who refused to vote or take much interest in the previous two presidential elections, but this time he is sitting up and taking notice. Because of his exposure (through me) to all the dirt on Palin, he has come to loathe her as much as I do and his disgust is driving his interest. In fact he is emailing me anti-McCain clips from youtube. I'm keeping my fingers crossed but I think at age 40, he might just cast his first vote.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:47 PM on September 14, 2008

bitter-girl.com : I can see Canada from here, technically.

Me too. Although, I'm using maps.google's satellite view, so I can also see Africa, Mongolia, and that little tiny dot of land called Christmas Island out there in the Indian Ocean.

Based on what I've been hearing, that should qualify me for a cabinet position at the very least.
posted by quin at 8:54 PM on September 14, 2008

Pah. Did I just see some facts get listed in this thread?

As if mere facts are going to counter faith. Single-issue voters are going to save the village by destroying the village. They want creationism in the science curriculum: these are not people to whom fact has any meaning.

Facts? Pah. It's okay to lie if it advances the faith.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:03 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]

The only contribution Clinton made to the blame for "9/11" was not implementing the Gore Commission's anti-terrorism (but not anti-freedom) recommendations because he expected Good Old Al to win the election and wanted him to get all the credit himself. Of course Bush Jr. trashcanned the whole package simply because they came from Gore, which was one (just one) of the ways he helped make the attacks possible.

In fact, some high Bush Administration officials including Connie Rice were making serious "diplomatic" overtures to Al Queda (not just the Taliban, but Al Queda) mere weeks before the attack. Documented in the 9/11 Commission Report but criminally underreported.

The most credible reason for the "9/11 was an inside job" conspiracy theories (most of the reasons, of course, being totally ridiculous) was about how easy THE BUSH ADMINISTRATION made the attacks - an Occam's Razor argument, actually - what other reason for some of the ways we let our guard down between January 20th and September 11th.

That terrifyingly telling quote when George Jr. told the official handing him the August 6th Bin Laden Determined to Strike in U.S. memo: "All right. You've covered your ass, now"... America lost a part of its mind, heart and soul by trusting the man who did not protect us then to "protect us now".
posted by wendell at 9:09 PM on September 14, 2008 [3 favorites]

Some perspective on the "Alaska is next to Russia" spiel, with numbers (self-link, propaganda, youtube, crossposted from the new thread)
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 9:19 PM on September 14, 2008

All is not lost. Palin is energizing voters on both sides and the polls are not fully reflecting it - yet. Obama got a record $66 million in contributions in August BEFORE Palin hit the scene. He is being critcized by some of his supporters for not organizing a big money-raising drive right now, but HE WON'T NEED TO. (disclaimer: one of the things I LEAST like about Barry O. is his emphasis on money; I guess that's the way you get credibility in this $$$-based society, but still...)

The defiant anti-truth turn of the McCain campaign may be getting a short-term payoff, but he's doing it too early... in 7 weeks, this garbage will be so ripe and stinky, and he and Sarah will have cemented a reputation as Liars with a lot of the swing voters.

On the other hand, this does provide The Press with a plausible reason why the GOP team might win, besides the real reason - an unprecedented campaign of Election Fraud. So all is probably lost anyway.
posted by wendell at 9:41 PM on September 14, 2008

Barack Star (Sinfest comic strip)
posted by Kattullus at 10:56 PM on September 14, 2008

* kisses thread gently on forehead *

I love you, 74487.
posted by Locative at 11:08 PM on September 14, 2008

Never forget 74487, unless this horrendous indictment of McCain's judgment actually finds herself in the position of Vice President. In that case, I've got some extra pitchforks and torches in the barn for those who want to join me in the streets.
posted by clearly at 3:29 AM on September 15, 2008

I <3 74487.
posted by shiu mai baby at 4:34 AM on September 15, 2008

Hey guys. I think I made it to the bottom. Headed over to the new thread now. See you over there in a few minutes.
posted by yeti at 5:58 AM on September 15, 2008

Are they talking about Abortion and other stupid shit that doesn't matter in the other thread yet? Because till then, there can only be ONE Palin thread. Though, that might make the other thread more informative and enjoyable to read.
posted by chunking express at 6:35 AM on September 15, 2008

Sarah Palin, Anointed: Do pentecostals, charismatics, and other evangelicals view Palin as "the anointed one"?
posted by jonp72 at 7:17 AM on September 15, 2008

Isn't anointing easy? Something anyone can do at home with some prayed-over salad oil?
posted by QIbHom at 7:23 AM on September 15, 2008

Hey guys. I think I made it to the bottom.

Someone's gone crevice-climbing on Eccentrica Gallumbits again!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:31 AM on September 15, 2008

Pointy birds
Pointy, pointy.
posted by cortex at 7:45 AM on September 15, 2008

74487: Requiescat in Pace
posted by Mental Wimp at 7:49 AM on September 15, 2008

Anoint my head
Anointy-nointy.

Memory is a scary, scary thing.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 8:11 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

The story of 74487:

"Real isn't how you are made," said Thread 74487. "It's a thing that happens to you. When a child loves you for a long, long time, not just to play with, but REALLY loves you, then you become Real."

"Does it hurt?" asked the Rabbit.

"Sometimes," said Thread 74487, for he was always truthful. "When you are Real you don't mind being hurt."

"Does it happen all at once, like being wound up," he asked, "or bit by bit?"

"It doesn't happen all at once," said Thread 74487. "You become. It takes a long time. That's why it doesn't happen often to people who break easily, or have sharp edges, or who have to be carefully kept. Generally, by the time you are Real, most of your hair has been loved off, and your eyes drop out and you get loose in your joints and very shabby. But these things don't matter at all, because once you are Real you can't be ugly, except to people who don't understand."
posted by Bookhouse at 8:20 AM on September 15, 2008 [11 favorites]

The Velveteen Thread?
posted by QIbHom at 8:34 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

Superthreads Last All Summer.
posted by cortex at 8:47 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

Bookhouse, you made me cry. Stop that.
posted by lysdexic at 8:55 AM on September 15, 2008

I <3 74487 too...

.
posted by schyler523 at 9:17 AM on September 15, 2008

Superthreads Last All Summer Long

Am I the only one around here who gives a shit about the rules?
posted by Kattullus at 9:18 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

Superthreads Last All Summer Long Dong Silver
posted by cortex at 9:59 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

*tear* I love you guys...
posted by lunit at 10:05 AM on September 15, 2008

oh my dog, oh long johnson, oh don piano, all the live long day.
posted by mwhybark at 10:21 AM on September 15, 2008

Whew! Finally finished reading this thing. I feel ready to participate now.

Guys?

Hey, guys?

anyone...?
posted by cimbrog at 11:26 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

*runs vacuum, empties trash, turns off light*
posted by konolia at 11:38 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

Good night, sweet thread. I will miss you. *Sniffle.* (But... but I thought we were goin' for 6000!?)
posted by bitter-girl.com at 11:39 AM on September 15, 2008

But... but I thought we were goin' for 6000!

If ericb can find another 858 Palin articles, we are SO THERE.
posted by shiu mai baby at 11:47 AM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

I dunno, this thread is still loadin' fine for me.

In depth analysis of Sarah Palin... impersonators.

It amazes me how astutely the US media avoid actual issues as all costs. No 2,000 words on McCain's policies. Nope. 2,000 words on other women who look like the VP candidate. Good work guys.
posted by GuyZero at 12:18 PM on September 15, 2008

Somewhat relevant self-link. Non-comics-geeks need not apply.
posted by Shepherd at 12:24 PM on September 15, 2008 [7 favorites]

Shepherd, I hug you.
posted by cortex at 12:33 PM on September 15, 2008

Dammit, I started my refresh habit over on the new thread and look at how much I missed out. I'm sorry 74487 that I was ever unfaithful.
I'm another first time donor, which makes me wonder how much this thread has funded the obama campaign?
posted by like_neon at 12:49 PM on September 15, 2008

I had to load this page up once more because Shepherd, damn it, your comic is good.
posted by chunking express at 1:21 PM on September 15, 2008

we can still do six thousand, yo
posted by every_one_needs_a_hug_sometimes at 1:30 PM on September 15, 2008

That was a beautiful thing, Shepherd.
posted by lekvar at 1:38 PM on September 15, 2008

we can still do six thousand, yo

I believe in us more than I believe in any one of us.
posted by cortex at 1:47 PM on September 15, 2008

us for president!
posted by iamkimiam at 1:55 PM on September 15, 2008

In for a penny, in for a pound.
posted by dirtdirt at 1:58 PM on September 15, 2008

Gooooooo us!
posted by iamkimiam at 1:59 PM on September 15, 2008

Darn, I just missed the thread moving into Van Halen territory!
posted by jonp72 at 2:02 PM on September 15, 2008

Or I should say...
posted by iamkimiam at 2:04 PM on September 15, 2008

G
posted by iamkimiam at 2:06 PM on September 15, 2008

You are all. Weirdos!
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 2:07 PM on September 15, 2008

o
posted by iamkimiam at 2:09 PM on September 15, 2008

u
posted by iamkimiam at 2:12 PM on September 15, 2008

s
posted by iamkimiam at 2:14 PM on September 15, 2008

!
posted by iamkimiam at 2:16 PM on September 15, 2008

Yep, I need help guys.
posted by iamkimiam at 2:19 PM on September 15, 2008

Man, the abcnews article just sucks the fun out of humour, doesn't it?
posted by QIbHom at 2:19 PM on September 15, 2008

GOUS!
posted by cortex at 2:22 PM on September 15, 2008

GOUSSIAN BLUR
posted by dersins at 2:39 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

GYou are all. Weirdos!OUS!
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 3:13 PM on September 15, 2008

posted by iamkimiam at 1:59 PM
posted by iamkimiam at 2:04 PM
posted by iamkimiam at 2:06 PM
posted by iamkimiam at 2:09 PM
posted by iamkimiam at 2:12 PM
posted by iamkimiam at 2:14 PM
posted by iamkimiam at 2:16 PM
posted by iamkimiam at 2:19 PM

That's a pretty heinous refresh rate.
posted by ryanrs at 3:52 PM on September 15, 2008

Today in Beverly Hills, I saw a Prius with a McCain sticker.
posted by Bookhouse at 3:55 PM on September 15, 2008

iamkimiam was against going for 6000 before she was for it.
posted by cortex at 3:57 PM on September 15, 2008

Today in Seattle I saw an SUV with neatly written words on the back windshield. On the left it said Barack Hussein Obama, and on the right it said John Sydney McCain III. I've enjoyed asking people for their opinions of what the intended message might have been. It seems each side is willing and able to read their own bias into it.

If I were the type of cynic to make political statements on my car, I think I might like a bumper sticker that says Palin '09. Either that or Bush/Cheney '08.
posted by Balonious Assault at 4:10 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]

Today in Beverly Hills, I saw a Prius with a McCain sticker.
Don't look back you can never look back.
posted by dirtdirt at 4:20 PM on September 15, 2008 [9 favorites]

Cortex, you sexist pig! That's it, I'm not showing my face around here until you all promise to be nicer to me and give me the deference I deserve! I've spent 18 months on Metafilter, and dammit I can see BoingBoing from my browser window!
posted by iamkimiam at 4:56 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

What could be more beautiful than a viking funeral?
Afloat and burning as a reminder of this thread adrift and learning.
posted by Sailormom at 5:11 PM on September 15, 2008

Alaska blue-collar pioneer woman, Sarah Palin, buys and installs $35,000 tanning bed in governor's mansion.
posted by jonp72 at 6:45 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

60000 or bust!!
posted by every_one_needs_a_hug_sometimes at 6:51 PM on September 15, 2008

Bookhouse, I warned you.

And I saw, way back in '07 a Bush '08 sticker, made up in the same style as the '04 one.
posted by lysdexic at 6:52 PM on September 15, 2008

Sarah Palin, buys and installs $35,000 tanning bed in governor's mansion.

The article does not say that. It says she bought a used tanning bed with her own money. The writer says tanning beds can cost up to $35,000. We don't know how much it cost, but to rephrase it as if she paid $35,000 is a cheap shot, and just lazy. It's a distraction from more important issues.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 7:08 PM on September 15, 2008

Sounds like they might both get melanoma.
posted by furtive at 7:54 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]

It's actually her secret Bond-villain scheme to kill McCain.
posted by cortex at 8:36 PM on September 15, 2008 [4 favorites]

And like most Bond villains, she has a specific and kind of irritating trademark; Blofeld had the cat and the scar, Goldfinger was laconic, and Palin is obnoxiously shrill.

As super villain traits go, hers kinda sucks.
posted by quin at 9:27 PM on September 15, 2008 [2 favorites]

posted by quin at 11:27 PM on September 15

Whereas this thread has then evil genius power of time shifting, because that last comment seemed like it happened just seconds ago.
posted by quin at 9:31 PM on September 15, 2008

Maher's third episode this year is worth a look-see, just to watch John Fund work himself into knots trying to cover for and make excuses for the Republican regime and the McCain McPalin McFuckup debacle.

The delusional "spin" was breathtaking in its denial of reality. It required bryzantine bald-faced lies. It was nearly a masterful display of True Believer — or, at least, someone too proud who has been caught painting himself into the corner.

One of the reasons I really hope the majority of Americans turn out for this dreadfully important election, is so that we can finally see whether the batshitinsane True Believers really do outnumber the sensible people who, behind the privacy of the screen, eat humble pie and vote for the candidate that gives the USA the best possible future.

The economy is in active collapse. The TSE is 500 points lower than it was when McBush entered office. Major financial institutions are falling like flies. The big three are all struggling. Infrastructure is collapsing.

One candidate is more likely to pull the marshmallow out of the fire in time. Get out the vote.
posted by five fresh fish at 10:33 PM on September 15, 2008 [1 favorite]

It says she bought a used tanning bed

Ewwww.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:43 PM on September 15, 2008

Palin: "I think I will see Jesus come back to earth in my lifetime."

And that, in a nutshell, is why the single-issue wingnuts don't give a good goddamn about the economic, environmental, or educational future for the country: they know they're going to go to heaven before these things become problems. Their children won't have to deal with these things. Jesus is a-comin'!

They care very much about the moral future for the country, though. Gotta get it all spin'n'span before the Big Guy comes rolling on down from on high. All y'all don't wanna be letting (poor) women obtain abortions when the Jesus comes a-knockin'!

Fortunately, the wingnuts are a tiny minority. They're just very noisy.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:16 PM on September 15, 2008 [4 favorites]

Palin: "I think I will see Jesus come back to earth in my lifetime."

Um, okay. Yikes.
posted by brain cloud at 11:24 PM on September 15, 2008 [3 favorites]

ah, man, 6000 was just too much to hope for.
posted by zardoz at 11:33 PM on September 15, 2008

I think I will see Jesus come back to earth in my lifetime.

Fuck, don't I wish.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:41 PM on September 15, 2008 [6 favorites]

I probably won't stay awake long enough to immanentize the punchline, but ...

Knock, knock.
posted by team lowkey at 12:43 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh hey, my insomnia finally comes in handy...

Who's there?
posted by Kattullus at 12:57 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]

9/11.
posted by team lowkey at 1:04 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh, fuck it, you fucking neighbors.
posted by team lowkey at 1:35 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]

9/11 oh fuck it you fucking neighbors who?
posted by Faint of Butt at 3:17 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]

I don't get it.
posted by ColdChef at 4:52 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]

5225?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:15 AM on September 16, 2008

Well their talking about abortion in the other thread now, so I guess it's officially taken over this threads duties. WTF. American elections make people stupid.
posted by chunking express at 6:37 AM on September 16, 2008

The article does not say that. It says she bought a used tanning bed with her own money. The writer says tanning beds can cost up to $35,000. We don't know how much it cost, but to rephrase it as if she paid $35,000 is a cheap shot, and just lazy.

I never said Palin didn't buy it with her own money. Anyway, your alleged evenhandedness misses the point. The point would be the same if the tanning bed was $10,000 or $35,000. The point is that Palin spent more than some people make all year on a luxury good, but she's still presenting herself falsely as this moose-hunting woman of the people. Have you forgotten that the John Edwards campaign was destroyed for a haircut that cost about 2% of the value of this tanning bed? No wonder liberals don't win if they keep fulfilling the old definition that a liberal is "somebody who won't take their own side in an argument."
posted by jonp72 at 6:43 AM on September 16, 2008

Well, then, let's find the price. 10,000 is pretty different from 35,000. Yes, it's more than a lot of people make. It's also Alaska, with the long nights in the winter. If I'd live up there I'd probably max out a card getting a tanning bed or light box, too.

Doesn't qualify her for prez, but doesn't disqualify, either. There's lots of things to ding her on besides this.
posted by lysdexic at 7:17 AM on September 16, 2008

I fear this thread does not have my interests at heart. It's continued support of the tanning bed has pushed me over the edge. Think of the babies.
posted by pointilist at 7:55 AM on September 16, 2008

Doesn't qualify her for prez, but doesn't disqualify, either. There's lots of things to ding her on besides this.

Neither should a $400 haircut disqualify somebody for prez, but it did. Stop being so politically naive.
posted by jonp72 at 8:24 AM on September 16, 2008

.Gov. Sarah Palin may eventually have said ''no thanks'' to a federally funded Bridge to Nowhere. But a bridge to her hometown of Wasilla, that's a different story.

A $600 million bridge and highway project to link Alaska's largest city to Palin's town of 7,000 residents is moving full speed ahead, despite concerns the bridge could worsen some commuting and threaten a population of beluga whales.
[...]''This is basically an incredibly expensive project that doesn't help commuters, doesn't help create jobs and may drive whales to extinction,'' said Justin Massey, an attorney advising environmentalists opposed to the proposal. ''It is also a project that serves the area where the governor is from, which is near and dear to her heart.
[...]The bridge is popular with property developers -- including a group comprised of Young's son-in-law, the former legislative director for indicted Republican Sen. Ted Stevens and three others -- who own land across from Anchorage on the inlet's western side.

A $600 million bridge for 7000 residents. Yep. It's Son of The Bridge To Nowhere. Nowhere, except of course for the Governor's home.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 8:53 AM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]

Jesus is a-comin'!

Look busy!
posted by ericb at 9:21 AM on September 16, 2008

Neither should a $400 haircut disqualify somebody for prez, but it did. Stop being so politically naive.

Aw, that made me smile. Find the price, if you're absolutely hell-bent on taking her down on elitism charges. Find that $400 haircut equivalent.

Hint: It's probably not going to be about heavy equipment that has resale value. It's going to be about having something done for her at taxpayer expense that she could have done herself and is utterly trivial.
posted by lysdexic at 9:30 AM on September 16, 2008

There is the fact that the Governor's mansion had to be re-wired to accomodate her tanning bed. I doubt the Palins paid for that.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 9:59 AM on September 16, 2008

9/11 who?
posted by lunit at 11:32 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]

Find the price, if you're absolutely hell-bent on taking her down on elitism charges. Find that $400 haircut equivalent.

Find me a tanning bed that looks like Sarah Palin's tanning bed for less than $400. Jeez! The price tag is not the point! The point is that the Republicans are creating this pseudo-populist narrative around Sarah Palin based on B.S. about mooseburgers and hockey moms. The Alaska Empress has no clothes, and it's only time we pointed this out.
posted by jonp72 at 11:34 AM on September 16, 2008

YOU SAID YOU'D NEVAR FORGET!!!!!!!1111!!!!!
posted by lunit at 11:37 AM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]

Just doing my part to get us to 6000.
posted by lunit at 11:40 AM on September 16, 2008

Surprising reporting out of CNN.
posted by dirtdirt at 11:57 AM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]

My father thinks that my mother is a terrible driver. It takes her forever to get anywhere; when she finds a route, she'll never look for a faster one; she's regularly passed by folks of all stripes on the road. But while my father gets to destinations faster, and certainly drives more, he's had many more accidents and tickets. While my father and my mother may equally believe the other to be terrible drivers, empirically, my father is wrong.

Mr. Klangston, I believe you meant to preface that with: Here is a hypothetical example--the people involved do not necessarily endorse the opinion that holgagirl is a terrible driver, and the father in the example has had a clean driving record for well over seven years now.

For the record.
posted by beelzbubba at 12:13 PM on September 16, 2008

Whenever I load this entire page, I feel almost compelled to post. It's almost a waste not to.
posted by chunking express at 12:15 PM on September 16, 2008

I have reloaded this thread and am now adding a comment to it.
posted by cortex at 12:17 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]

Now McCain has invented the Blackberry!

Which wasn't even invented by Americans! He probably founded Nokia too.
posted by GuyZero at 12:22 PM on September 16, 2008

"You're looking at the miracle that John McCain helped create."

I can't find the article now, but AP is misquoting. The actual quote was the following:

Look at this fucking blackberry. John McCain invented the shit out this blackberry. This beautiful son of a bitch invented the mother fucking blackberry. Can you imagine what sort of crazy shit his ass is going to invent when he's the mother fucking president of the U.S. of mother fucking A. My bitch ass can't either, that's why i'm not John McCain.

posted by chunking express at 12:47 PM on September 16, 2008 [5 favorites]

Nobody uses Blackberry's anymore.

--
Sent from my iPhone
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:09 PM on September 16, 2008

Yeah? Well, look at this fucking candidate. McCain's bitch ass blackberry don't mean shit against this sweet mother fucker.
posted by cimbrog at 1:13 PM on September 16, 2008 [4 favorites]

Mr. Klangston, I believe you meant to preface that with: Here is a hypothetical example--the people involved do not necessarily endorse the opinion that holgagirl is a terrible driver, and the father in the example has had a clean driving record for well over seven years now.

OMG FAMILY DRAMA!
posted by dersins at 1:38 PM on September 16, 2008

Maybe she has psoriasis and the tanning bed is for UV therapy.
posted by goo at 1:44 PM on September 16, 2008

Dad, you're undermining the rhetorical strength of my argument!

(And c'mon, ma doesn't even read MeFi, let alone threads like this!)
posted by klangklangston at 1:54 PM on September 16, 2008

Brandon Blatcher : Nobody uses Blackberry's anymore.

--
Sent from my iPhone

Read on my BlackBerry.

Kidding aside, my entire company uses BlackBerry phones to communicate, and I've been very impressed with the one I got for personal use, but my wife wanted something that could do video so we were looking at iPhones, and I noticed that they are starting to pitch it as an enterprise solution.

That would be pretty slick; an iPhone as a business device.
posted by quin at 2:04 PM on September 16, 2008

Doing my part for 6k!
posted by ooga_booga at 4:34 PM on September 16, 2008

and I noticed that they are starting to pitch it as an enterprise solution.

Yeah, it has these Enterprise features now, pushin' and pullin' and what not.

--
Posted from my personal wifi network, powered my body's electrical field, using an antenna implanted in my spine. DO NOT HACK ME.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:37 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]

FIRST POST!
posted by sciurus at 5:09 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]

Here is the important question guys : Imagine McCain wins. Are we more or less likely to invade Iran if he dies soon?
posted by jeffburdges at 6:01 PM on September 16, 2008

Well, Palin wants war with Russia, quite possibily to fulfill an Armageddon. I think Iran probably fits into the same end game. Some of these loons want to make the Second Coming happen.
posted by five fresh fish at 6:43 PM on September 16, 2008 [2 favorites]

Here is the important question guys : Imagine McCain wins. Are we more or less likely to move to Canada?
posted by lekvar at 6:55 PM on September 16, 2008

I say if McCain wins we all move to Alaska and secede.
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 7:29 PM on September 16, 2008 [9 favorites]

if I may offer a modest proposal, one of the most pressing long term concerns facing humanity is overpopulation. Indeed, at some point (and it may have already happened, our planet is no longer going to be able to sustain the human population.

Since this is the case, we shouldn't be looking at the candidate who is most likely to help preserve life, but the candidate who is most likely to kill the largest number of people.

Now, some of you might argue "baby killing Obama." Truth be told, if abortion is made illegal, we'll have more deaths of both adults and children - and those adults will be women who will, thus, be unable to give birth to more children. Thus, since as many as twice as many people die (or aren't born) under McCain as under Obama, McCain has the edge.

Furthermore, McCain seems to be under the thumbs of the same folks behind the Iraq war. If we get our wars with Iran and Russia, we will probably face a lot of death. Furthermore, by antagonizing the Islamic world, we could assure more attacks in the future - and a permanent base in Iraq has the potential for even more death.

McCain's health plan, which could strip many people who currently have benefits of their benefits, also has the potential to increase the number of deaths in the world.

And, of course, ignoring environmental problems will eventually lead to widespread death.

So, I propose that in the interest of protecting the viability of long-term human existence, it makes sense to elect McCain, the candidate that will end more lives (and probably die himself) while in office.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:38 PM on September 16, 2008 [3 favorites]

And, of course, ignoring environmental problems will eventually lead to widespread death.

Doomsayer. It might lead to nothing more than epidemic squalor and a regression of the human lifespan to prehistoric averages.
posted by cortex at 9:12 PM on September 16, 2008

Do you know the difference between me and a Hockey Mom who has forgot her lipstick?

A dog collar.

Do you know the difference between me and a dog collar smeared with lipstick?

Not a damn thing.
posted by afu at 9:28 PM on September 16, 2008

Joey Michaels for Evil Overlord! Joey Michaels for Evil Overlord! Rah! Rah! Rah!
posted by five fresh fish at 9:30 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]

I would like to point out that the Blackberry is a Canadian invention. (Like the telephone, only for real.)
posted by jb at 9:31 PM on September 16, 2008

Truth be told, if abortion is made illegal, we'll have more deaths of both adults and children - and those adults will be women who will, thus, be unable to give birth to more children.

At least one of the pro-lifers here has announced that it's more important to have abortion banned than to actually do something that saves lives and/or reduces the number of abortions. Given experience talking to pro-lifers here and elsewhere, I'd be shocked to learn that she's not representative of the pro-life movement as a whole.
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:18 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]

Are we more or less likely to move to Canada?

Shit, I knew we should have built a fence.
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:53 PM on September 16, 2008 [1 favorite]

In order to skip entirely the question of when "life" begins, perhaps it should simply be legal to kill one's biological child at any age. Call it the "I brought you into this world; I can take you out of it" principle.
posted by Faint of Butt at 3:58 AM on September 17, 2008 [3 favorites]

I see what you did there, you Ivy League elitist nerd! Boring long speech full of policy specifics to address the biggest problems your country is facing, never mind that what's with the bigass ears?
If only I could contribute to his campaign rather than being yet another foreigner who is subject to the repercussions of the outcome of the American presidential elections with no direct say.
posted by =^^= at 4:28 AM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

...which is why this Sarah Palin thread is wholehearedly endorsed by me in pursuit of the epic 6K.
posted by =^^= at 4:33 AM on September 17, 2008

Levity...

FOX "News": Media One-Sided in Covering Palin

A cross-dressing Palin impersonator in a video titled "Sarah Palin Exposed" opens with excited thanks for being chosen the Republican candidate for president, then reluctantly changes it to "interim vice president."
posted by chuckdarwin at 5:05 AM on September 17, 2008

We've turned into a nation of backseat drivers.
posted by Bookhouse at 9:11 AM on September 17, 2008

The white war hero would never tell a lie. He has too much Honor™
posted by billysumday at 8:44 AM on September 14 [7 favorites +] [!]
posted by cimbrog at 1:21 PM on September 17, 2008

The flat out lie approach to politicking seems to be a new one, even for a presidential election.

Unfortunately it seems to be working.

What a mess.
posted by Lord_Pall at 8:45 AM on September 14 [+] [!]
posted by cimbrog at 1:24 PM on September 17, 2008

Here is the important question guys : Imagine McCain wins. Are we more or less likely to move to Canada?

Fuck Canada, I'll be heading for the Caribbean.
posted by ericb at 3:02 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

posted by cimbrog at 4:24 PM on September 17 [+] [!]

QFT.
posted by designbot at 3:20 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

Since there aren't any Obama threads anymore I guess I have to post this awesome picture of Obama with a punk I found on null terminate's blog here.
posted by Kattullus at 3:53 PM on September 17, 2008 [4 favorites]

Wow, do news photographers get special training in lining shit up behind candidates' heads or something?
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 4:08 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

Fuck Canada, I'll be heading for the Caribbean.

Wise man.

Maybe you can help convince the Caribbeaners to join Canada. We've been trying to woo them...
posted by five fresh fish at 5:10 PM on September 17, 2008

Sometimes, while refreshing my Recent Activity, I wonder what's happening in the non-Palinville sections of Metafilter.
posted by Bookhouse at 6:00 PM on September 17, 2008 [4 favorites]

Sometimes, while refreshing my Recent Activity, I wonder what's happening in the non-Palinville sections of Metafilter.

Heresy!
posted by grouse at 6:14 PM on September 17, 2008

How do you sleep with that kind of hairdo? Do you just redo it every morning?

That reminds me of girls in high school in the '80's, with pompadours a foot high. They'd kneel on the floor and hook their hair on the towell racks, and then use half a can of hairspray to hold it all up. It was a sight, let me tell you.
posted by lysdexic at 8:15 PM on September 17, 2008 [1 favorite]

Maybe you can help convince the Caribbeaners to join Canada. We've been trying to woo them... - posted by five fresh fish

Wait a minute!!! I've been lobbying for a 'fair trade' with Canada for *years*. We want you to trade with the US -- give them Quebec and you can have Hawai'i!! Hey, you guys spend half the year here, anyway ... and - hey, look at our flag! We are cousins!

.... meanwhile, we will continue the work towards reviving the independent Hawaiian Nation.
posted by Surfurrus at 8:35 PM on September 17, 2008

5300!!!
posted by beelzbubba at 4:47 AM on September 18, 2008

6K, yes we can has
posted by =^^= at 5:11 AM on September 18, 2008

I wonder what's happening in the non-Palinville sections of Metafilter.

There are parts of Metafilter that aren't about Palin? What are they for?
posted by me & my monkey at 5:14 AM on September 18, 2008

You can't spell "Palin" without spelling "pain".
posted by Grangousier at 5:20 AM on September 18, 2008

If the only comments in this thread are about reaching 6000 comments, it will be a hollow victory at best.
posted by chunking express at 6:26 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]

You can't spell "Palin" without spelling "pain".

Or "plain". Or "pail" for that matter.

It's a code; she is just a plain pail of pain.
posted by quin at 7:15 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]

I wonder what's happening in the non-Palinville sections of Metafilter.

Oh, don't worry about them, the Compassionate Liberals are busy beating up on the parents of retarded kids. Stay classy, Metafilter!
posted by mattholomew at 7:34 AM on September 18, 2008

It appears that Andrew Sullivan thinks he has found another lie. Palin claimed that she asked her girls if her VP candidacy would be ok with them and they said "Lets do this, mom."

The record is very clear that the decision to accept the veep nomination was kept from the Palin children until they arrived in Ohio on what they were told was a surprise trip for their parents' wedding anniversary . Here's a Fox-approved Kremlin interview with Todd Palin that re-confirms the official tick-tock provided by the McCain campaign. It's clear from this that the girls did not vote after McCain had offered Palin the job."

So when did she ask the girls for permission to run? It had to be before she was chosen, so was it a hypothetical question? To which the answer was, "Lets do this, mom?" It doesn't seem to fit.
posted by Secret Life of Gravy at 10:09 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]

As lies go, that's a pretty lame lie. I miss BabyGate.

I hope Obama starts talking about how the US economy is a disaster and it's all the greedy ass Republicans fault. It takes a special type of skill to go from a such a high to such a historic low in just 8 years. You can't fuck up that bad without dedication and skill.
posted by chunking express at 10:19 AM on September 18, 2008

You can't fuck up that bad without dedication and skill.

Actually I beg to differ. You just assume that everyone is a saint and say there's no rules, do whatever you want. It takes no dedication or skill to deregulate a market, especially one that's complex like credit derivatives. You just stamp the bill and go back to clearin' the brush off your ranch.
posted by GuyZero at 10:29 AM on September 18, 2008

I hope Obama starts talking about how the US economy is a disaster and it's all the greedy ass Republicans fault.

Obama's Unusual New Ad

"Unusual" in that its 120 seconds of the candidate talking directly to the camera, describing his thoughts on the economy in detail. I hope Obama does more of this. I've thought for a long time that a good 60 or 90 second edit of the NH Primary Speech ("Yes We Can") run as an ad would do very well.
posted by anastasiav at 10:29 AM on September 18, 2008 [3 favorites]

I am making a valuable contribution to this thread
posted by Jofus at 10:30 AM on September 18, 2008

Mine is even more valuable, to wit:

Wibble.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:57 AM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]

"Unusual" in that its 120 seconds of the candidate talking directly to the camera, describing his thoughts on the economy in detail.

That'll weird peopel out who are only usedto seeing him onthe news in 20 second chunks.
posted by Artw at 11:17 AM on September 18, 2008

That'll weird peopel out who are only usedto seeing him onthe news in 20 second chunks.

"Who the hell is this dude? Why is he talking so much?"
posted by chunking express at 11:37 AM on September 18, 2008

"Unusual" in that its 120 seconds of the candidate talking directly to the camera, describing his thoughts on the economy in detail. I hope Obama does more of this.

Next he needs to break out the graphs, or he'll never be as revolutionary as Perot.
posted by cimbrog at 11:44 AM on September 18, 2008

six thousand, rah rah rah!
posted by every_one_needs_a_hug_sometimes at 12:55 PM on September 18, 2008

Just as a little datapoint, the European media has pretty much shut up about Palin now. I think her first dalliance with the limelight has passed.

Obama's regained the lead in a lot of polls, and the only person who seems to have genuinely done well out of this is a Japanese glasses frame designer.

John McCain - outsourcing eyewear design!
posted by knapah at 2:06 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]

What could be more beautiful than a viking funeral?

A literal viking funeral, or a figurative one?
posted by kirkaracha at 2:31 PM on September 18, 2008

I don't understand what is supposed to be sporting about moose hunting. I've never been to Alaska, but I have been to Maine, and the things stand around like cows, munching on wild flowers, posing for pictures, refusing to move off the road even when you honk the horn. They are literally everywhere. There was one in my bathtub at the B&B, and I had to ask for a change in rooms. pls explain thx.
posted by found missing at 2:47 PM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]

I don't understand what is supposed to be sporting about moose hunting.

She can kill her, butcher and prepare her own food. That's sexy to some people and indicates some fabulous inner trait.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:08 PM on September 18, 2008

There was one in my bathtub at the B&B

He/she was just trying to get purdy for you. Why must you mock rural values?
posted by lukemeister at 4:09 PM on September 18, 2008

I can't think of anything sporting about it, either, unless it's the part where you have to haul it into the back of your pick-up without having a heart attack.

Not sure if this has been posted yet, and I haven't had a chance to watch it, but: Hey, Everyone! There's a new (last Friday?) Sarah Haskin's piece, and it's aboutn Palin! (link to Jezebel.com)

Wow commenting got hard.
posted by small_ruminant at 4:24 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]

The Lying Game -- "Like George W. Bush, McCain and Palin have to lie. Because if they told the truth about their policies, they'd lose the election."
posted by ericb at 4:43 PM on September 18, 2008 [1 favorite]

I can't believe I read the whole thing.
posted by thivaia at 6:12 PM on September 18, 2008

small_ruminant: Wow commenting got hard.

I'm starting to think we're going to reach the kill screen.
posted by Kattullus at 7:47 PM on September 18, 2008 [2 favorites]

Palin watched Tina Fey with the volume turned down.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:53 PM on September 18, 2008

No we're not. 6,000 is easy...

Comment in this thread now if you donated money to the Obama camp!
posted by iamkimiam at 7:58 PM on September 18, 2008

I gave at the office.
posted by jonp72 at 8:19 PM on September 18, 2008

*passes thivia the pepto bismol*

Palin watched Tina Fey with the volume turned down.

You know, when I hit the mute button, the closed captioning kicks in.
posted by lysdexic at 8:35 PM on September 18, 2008

Well, we know she can read from the teleprompter... so... she was blindfold?
posted by Artw at 10:24 PM on September 18, 2008

Screw the sportiness of hunting: the meat from a young, well-fed moose is delicious, and quite enough reason to go hunting.

Can the /b/-tard be our new plaything? Sarah's getting raggedy and besides, what a grade-A moran. Not only didn't they get any really juicy email, they left enough footprints that you'd think they were dog-sledding. What jackassery.
posted by five fresh fish at 11:31 PM on September 18, 2008

Yes, but the /b/tard is our plaything in another thread. This one is about abortion, remember?
posted by cimbrog at 6:00 AM on September 19, 2008

We don't need to get onto abortion again, after all, we already know that Palin supports post-natal abortion in certain cases.
posted by knapah at 6:55 AM on September 19, 2008

We don't need to get onto abortion again, after all, we already know that Palin supports post-natal abortion in certain cases.

No no no no. How can we possibly get this thread to 6000 without the seething, incoherent rage of the abortion debate that got us so far? I know Konolia's moved on to the other thread (as has most everyone else), but how about I stand in for her? Keep the rage alive!

*ahem*

Listen, down home folks know their place in nature and interact with it in a proper way. When they shoot, kill and clean a moose, they're looking right in the face of what all you intellectually elite vegans don't have the guts to take responsibility for. The same way you don't have the guts to take a good long look at the pictures of the murdered unborn. We look, unafraid, and say a prayer and cry for the lost. You snobs don't have the guts to look bloody reality in the face.

(Okay, maybe that's more of a Konolia hopped up on PCP. I think I shall refer to this imaginary gentleman as Konkillia.)
posted by cimbrog at 7:38 AM on September 19, 2008

Is Sarah Palin A Closet John Bircher?: A 1995 photo shows Sarah Palin reading an article, Con-Con Call by Don Fotheringham, from the John Birch Society's magazine, The New American. The blog, Bag News Notes, also has an interesting blog post about the photo.
posted by jonp72 at 7:48 AM on September 19, 2008

I don't understand what is supposed to be sporting about moose hunting.

You can't use a minigun. That's sporting.

Don't let you use a cannon neither. Not even a muzzle-loading black powder cannon.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:44 AM on September 19, 2008

Palin's favorability ratings tumble.
(yay!)
posted by manguero at 2:59 PM on September 19, 2008 [2 favorites]

No no no no. How can we possibly get this thread to 6000 without the seething, incoherent rage of the abortion debate that got us so far? I know Konolia's moved on to the other thread (as has most everyone else), but how about I stand in for her? Keep the rage alive!

You're right, I was far too defeatist. Only another 720 ish to go.

Irritatingly for me, none of the major political parties in Northern Ireland are "pro-choice", even the one I support. I'd love to be able to make it a "litmus test" issue, but frankly, ridiculous tribalism necessitates I give my vote to one of the big 4 parties here.

Bizarrely, even many of the loony christian nutjobs here are tentative Obama supporters.
posted by knapah at 4:20 PM on September 19, 2008

jonp72 writes "A 1995 photo shows Sarah Palin reading an article, Con-Con Call by Don Fotheringham, from the John Birch Society's magazine, The New American."

Hardly any kind of damning evidence; I've got both the Koran and Stranger in a Strange Land on the shelf next to my desk right now but that doesn't make me a Muslim or Water Brother.
posted by Mitheral at 5:10 PM on September 19, 2008

OR DOES IT
posted by klangklangston at 5:59 PM on September 19, 2008

One thought pushes fence-sitters to the left: Palin

"The one thing that frightens me more than anything else are the ideologues. We've seen too many," said 80-year-old Air Force veteran Donn Spegal, a lifelong Republican from St. Petersburg (...)
Obama is not making inroads because of anything he has done or said. It's more that McCain has repelled these swing voters in the biggest battleground region of the biggest battleground state.

posted by =^^= at 8:17 PM on September 19, 2008

This is a comment in this thread.

Good god. I'm writing this on a brand new 3GHz C2D w/4G RAM and the input window here is updating more slowly than the UBER-ADVANCED word processor on my CoCo in 1985.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:13 PM on September 19, 2008

Comment #: 5294

Load time: 1 minute, 19 seconds load time.

I REGRET NOTHING!!!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 10:33 PM on September 19, 2008

Big threads make baby iTouch cry.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:09 AM on September 20, 2008

This thread takes less than a minute on my MacBook Pro running Safari accessing it via my Time Warner cable modem.

I haven't been able to access the thread from my iPhone on ATT 3G since it hit about 1000 comments. For that I use cillit bangs cached version.

I'm happy to see there's a tide of opinion turning against Governor Palin, but even with McCain's gaffes and constant flip flopping, the election will still be too close for comfort.
posted by birdherder at 7:25 AM on September 20, 2008

This thread continues to be just as smooth as any shorter thread, on my MacBook using Opera.

Quit using crappy software, folks.

Coco, how I loved you. OS-9 rocked my socks.
posted by five fresh fish at 9:01 AM on September 20, 2008

It is with pleasure that I make a valuable contribution to this thread. Again. NINE DAYS LEFT.

not counting the sooper seekrit zombie thread revival window
posted by mwhybark at 10:05 AM on September 20, 2008

so...is this 5300 yet?
posted by casarkos at 10:42 AM on September 20, 2008

Hardly any kind of damning evidence; I've got both the Koran and Stranger in a Strange Land on the shelf next to my desk right now but that doesn't make me a Muslim or Water Brother.

Yes, but both of those have merit and neither advocate noxious political tropes.
posted by Mental Wimp at 10:47 AM on September 20, 2008

Coco, how I loved you. OS-9 rocked my socks.

OS-9? Feh.

Dungeons of Daggorath was where it was at.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 11:09 AM on September 20, 2008 [2 favorites]

NINE DAYS LEFT.

Come on, Jabba the Thread! You can almost see Russia from here!
posted by ersatz at 1:23 PM on September 20, 2008 [1 favorite]

Wow, this monster now kills greasemonkey. Or at least the mefi mods in greasemonkey.

Sarah Palin: Against greasemonkey. She wants your internet experiences to be uncustomizable. Are you willing to let her dictate how you read the internet?
posted by maxwelton at 1:52 PM on September 20, 2008

Don't know what all the griping about browser strain is all about. Safari 3 here on a 2.4 GHz C2D Macbook Pro, 4 GB of RAM. Pulling down the page takes 30 seconds or so, but it's still snappy as ever. No delays when typing in the text box, either.

Go, little ~~book~~ thread.
posted by emelenjr at 2:01 PM on September 20, 2008

ROU_Xenophobe writes "Dungeons of Daggorath was where it was at"

It's been ported.
posted by Mitheral at 2:06 PM on September 20, 2008

Lately i've been cracking myself up imagining Sarah Palin as a West Wing character. This election cycle would have made a great season.
posted by billyfleetwood at 9:15 PM on September 20, 2008

I have to say that this political season has really stretched my suspension of disbelief to a breaking point. If this was a novel I'd have gone "COMEON!" a long time ago, flinging the book away in disgust at the complete ridiculousness of the plotting. I mean, just the premise is absurd... son of an African goatherder running for president of the United States? I mean.... COMEON!
posted by Kattullus at 10:57 PM on September 20, 2008

This is all over now, I realize, but damn that was some fine work pushing Konolia into a corner like that! You got her to admit that she doesn't really think abortion is murder like regular murder is, which is genius in and of itself, and you got her to backtrack on the "laws are more important than the murder rate" thing. I mean, she said she wanted to live in a country that that the "right" laws regardless of how many abortions actually occur because of those laws, but then she says: I am a little less concerned with civil penalties. I will leave that to the lawmakers.

So you guys won! She agreed to leave abortion laws to the law-makers! Break out the champagne! She should be pro-choice now!

...right?
posted by Hildegarde at 11:23 PM on September 20, 2008

what
posted by cgc373 at 12:45 AM on September 21, 2008

*pounds fists on thread's chest*

DON'T YOU GIVE ON ME! YOU'RE A FIGHTER, GODDAMMIT! FIGHT! BREATHE!

*pinches thread's nose, exhales*
posted by cortex at 9:35 AM on September 21, 2008 [8 favorites]

What this thread needs is more Alaska puns. Juneau any?
posted by yarrow at 10:23 AM on September 21, 2008

Hey, Palin thread, I missed you.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 10:29 AM on September 21, 2008

yarrow, those were all worn down on Day One.
posted by cgc373 at 10:34 AM on September 21, 2008

You know what annoys me about McCain and Palin? They're the jock and the cheerleader team. They're the idealization of every single Boomer fantasy -- the homecoming king and queen coming forth to bring their clique and its social power down on us.

Obama and Biden, they're the nerd fantasy. Highly educated, but proved themselves in nerdy things. Obama's the pretty nerd, Biden the granddad who defended you playing D&D by saying "he has friends and they socialize, what's wrong with that?"

That's the thing I've noticed about the Palin supporters that have come out of the woodwork -- they've been the sort who were either popular in high school or wanted to be popular in high school. She's their fulfillment of their Mean Girls/Heathers fantasy. OK, Beach Blanket Bingo. Or, whatever.
posted by dw at 11:06 AM on September 21, 2008 [6 favorites]

cgc373 - I know, I thought maybe we could start a nostalgic rally, harking back to the early days of the thread.
posted by yarrow at 11:16 AM on September 21, 2008

Holy crap! It finally loaded. Anyway:

Palin has a toned-down version of the porn actress look favoured by this decade's woman, the overtreated hair, puffy lips and permanently alarmed expression. Bristol has what is known in Britain as the look of the teen mum, the "pramface."

The Heather Mallick op-ed that got Fox's knickers in a knot. Pramface, heh.
posted by GuyZero at 11:49 AM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]

Ah. Very well, then. yarrow, Inuit. Now for the next one, Yupik.
posted by cgc373 at 12:16 PM on September 21, 2008

Whew... finally loaded. OK, now here's the thing...

Uh. I forgot what I was going to say.
posted by Fuzzy Skinner at 12:44 PM on September 21, 2008

*pounds fists on thread's chest*

You probably just broke several ribs. Did Jessamyn send you?

When doing CPR, you need to get your hand positions right. Do 30 compressions, then 2 breaths, then restart compressions. You have to do 5 sets of this in 2 minutes, at minimum. Don't stop 'till the paramedic tells you to stop.

Yes, I did just get certified, how did you know?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:50 PM on September 21, 2008

YANMD.
posted by cortex at 12:53 PM on September 21, 2008

Yupik Anchorage Nome . . . Metlakatla? Denali. WTF?
posted by cgc373 at 1:07 PM on September 21, 2008

Last night Thin Lizzy and I went to the opening night of 9 to 5: The Musical. Early on in the show there was a technical problem, causing a long pause in the performance. To kill time, Dolly Parton (who was in the audience, along with Jane Fonda, Lily Tomlin and Dabney Coleman (who I thought was dead)) asked for a microphone. She waxed folksy for a while and even sang the title song along with the audience. Later on at the afterparty, she stopped to pose for pictures or sign things for everyone who asked.

A few points:

1). Dolly Parton is awesome.

2). When Republicans look at Sarah Palin, they see Dolly: a charming, sexy and sassy backwoods gal who's kept her small-town values while raising herself up by her bootstraps, full of common sense and traditional values.

3). No matter how much she wants to be, Sarah Palin is no Dolly Parton. For one thing, last night I saw Dolly fielding questions from the press.
posted by Bookhouse at 1:26 PM on September 21, 2008 [6 favorites]

Yeah Anarchists Never Mount Democrats
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:37 PM on September 21, 2008

Damn straight is Dolly Parton awesome!
posted by Kattullus at 1:39 PM on September 21, 2008

I have nothing worthwhile to add, but don't want to let this sucker die and want to keep it on topic. In that spirit, this is something lame I wrote after she was first nominated. This is something less lame that the ownder of that same site wrote. That's all I got.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:12 PM on September 21, 2008

What kinda superhero would Palin be, what powers would she have?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:15 PM on September 21, 2008

I see her as much more of a sexy shootemup videogame star than a superhero. Just need a name. Moosehunter? Snow Machine? I'm going to go with Tundra. Tundra Babe?
posted by msalt at 5:45 PM on September 21, 2008

Penultimate?
posted by schyler523 at 7:59 PM on September 21, 2008

No matter how much she wants to be, Sarah Palin is no Dolly Parton. For one thing, last night I saw Dolly fielding questions from the press.

For another, Dolly has assets that Palin simply lacks.

Such as an amusement park where she could let all her friends ride for free if she wanted to. What did you think I meant?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:34 PM on September 21, 2008 [1 favorite]

Oh, I lol'd, Joey Michaels. Long as we're doing self links, I'll put up my channeling of Molly Ivins come back from the dead.
posted by lysdexic at 8:34 PM on September 21, 2008

First!
posted by jason's_planet at 8:42 PM on September 21, 2008

Tap tap tap. Is this thing on?
posted by keds at 9:21 PM on September 21, 2008

lysdexic: nice. Molly would approve, I imagine.
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:16 AM on September 22, 2008

I think I will see Jesus come back to earth in my lifetime.

Won't somebody please think of the eight-year-olds?
posted by ahughey at 10:59 AM on September 22, 2008

Damnit, lysdexic, you just had to go and remind me that Molly Ivins isn't with us anymore.
posted by lekvar at 12:18 PM on September 22, 2008

Comments needed for 6k:
666 is the number of the beast
posted by pointilist at 12:22 PM on September 22, 2008

So, has anyone heard any good Sarah Palin jokes?
posted by RussHy at 1:57 PM on September 22, 2008

Just take nun jokes or dead baby jokes and cut and replace.

What's ridiculously unqualified and can't fit through a revolving door? A Sarah Palin with a spear through her!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 2:11 PM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]

ALBATROSS!
posted by sciurus at 4:02 PM on September 22, 2008

So, has anyone heard any good Sarah Palin jokes?

I like it when they call her "Caribou Barbie™".
posted by Mental Wimp at 4:02 PM on September 22, 2008

Sarah Palin and John McCain were driving on a steep mountain road when John's door swung open and he flew out and tumbled down the mountain. Sarah just laughed and laughed because she knew he was wearing a new fall suit.
posted by pointilist at 5:05 PM on September 22, 2008

Palin and McCain walk into a bar, and the bartender says, "why the long string of demonstrable lies?"
posted by cortex at 5:13 PM on September 22, 2008 [23 favorites]

Knock Knock.
Who's there?
Sarah Palin.
Sarah Palin who?
posted by iamkimiam at 5:31 PM on September 22, 2008 [3 favorites]

Sarah Palin who?

Sexist.
posted by Artw at 5:38 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]

How many Sarah Palin's does it take to screw in a lightbulb?

None, silly. She only screws her husband's business former partner.
posted by dersins at 5:41 PM on September 22, 2008

OMG embarrassing grocer[']s['] apostrophe.
posted by dersins at 5:46 PM on September 22, 2008

go thread go!

I gots no jokes, but I lurves the idear.
posted by mwhybark at 5:55 PM on September 22, 2008

Sarah Palin clubs a seal...
wait, I screwed that one up, huh?
posted by iamkimiam at 6:14 PM on September 22, 2008

clearly: "Sarah Palin addresses Media!"

Q: What's the difference between a suburb in Philadelphia, and willful cooperation with an American public that wants to know?

A: Semantics.
posted by iamkimiam at 6:28 PM on September 22, 2008

What's the difference between Palin and Muslim fundamentalists?

Lipstick.
posted by Balonious Assault at 6:43 PM on September 22, 2008 [2 favorites]

Q: What is Sarah Palin's Yahoo! account password?
A: password
posted by iamkimiam at 6:50 PM on September 22, 2008

*** presses "any" key to see next joke ***
posted by lukemeister at 7:01 PM on September 22, 2008

If you do a Google news search for MetaFilter you find the following pullquote for the second entry: But overlooked is the irony that Sarah's sister will be overseeing revenue from Digg, FARK, and Metafilter — even as their users post snarky comments.

But when you follow the link to 10 Zen Monkeys the text is nowhere to be found. Is it a giant conspiracy to conceal the powers behind the throne, Haughey, Curtis and Rose or has Google started to index parallel realities?
posted by Kattullus at 7:44 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]

I blame the LHC for this whole mess.
posted by Sailormom at 9:24 PM on September 22, 2008 [1 favorite]

The text is from a site that links to 10 Zen Monkeys. I'm not going to link to it because it is just a resyndication of Digg content.
posted by grouse at 10:34 PM on September 22, 2008

Sarah Palin is very Presidential on TV (with the volume turned down).
posted by BrotherCaine at 10:55 PM on September 22, 2008

Making it to the bottom of this thread calls for a celebration!

Shots of moose drool in hollowed out polar bear bones all around!

I toast this momentus occasion in the name of omnipresent little baby Jesus.
posted by clearly at 12:07 AM on September 23, 2008

٩๏̯͡๏)۶
posted by five fresh fish at 1:01 AM on September 23, 2008 [6 favorites]

Advice for future threads in handy flowchart form
posted by ahughey at 2:13 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]

Someone on the David Foster Wallace thread linked to this article in Rolling Stone: The Weasel, Twelve Monkeys And The Shrub
Seven Days In The Life Of The Late, Great John McCain. Aside from it being a great read, I was struck by the irony of how some of the things he said about McCain then are completely out the window now, but seem to ring all the more true about Obama now.
I know, I know, this comment should have gone either in the original thread, or in the Palin Pancakes one, but I love this thread and won't allow for it to shrivel up and die.

So who wouldn't fall all over themselves for a top politician who actually seemed to talk to you like you were a person, an intelligent adult worthy of respect? A politician who all of a sudden out of nowhere comes on TV as this total long-shot candidate and says that Washington is paralyzed, that everybody there's been bought off, and that the only way to really "return government to the people" the way all the other candidates claim they want to do is to outlaw huge unreported political contributions from corporations and lobbies and PACs ... all of which are obvious truths that everybody knows but no recent politician's had the stones to say.
....
[He] cannot afford to have voters get turned off, since his whole strategy is based on exciting the people and inspiring them and pulling more voters in, especially those who'd stopped voting because they'd gotten so disgusted and bored with all the Negativity and bullshit of politics.
....
Obviously, a real leader isn't just somebody who has ideas you agree with, nor is it just somebody you happen to think is a good guy. A real leader is somebody who, because of his own particular power and charisma and example, is able to inspire people, with "inspire" being used here in a serious and non-cliché way. A real leader can somehow get us to do certain things that deep down we think are good and want to be able to do but usually can't get ourselves to do on our own. It's a mysterious quality, hard to define, but we always know it when we see it, even as kids.
....
A leader's real "authority" is a power you voluntarily give him, and you grant him this authority not with resentment or resignation but happily; it feels right. Deep down, you almost always like how a real leader makes you feel, the way you find yourself working harder and pushing yourself and thinking in ways you couldn't ever get to on your own.

posted by =^^= at 2:38 AM on September 23, 2008

holy wow this thing is long...
posted by lonefrontranger at 4:58 AM on September 23, 2008

So who wouldn't fall all over themselves for a top politician who actually seemed to talk to you like you were a person, an intelligent adult worthy of respect?

And look where he's 8 years later. On the other hand, there've been many comments on mefi appreciating that Obama doesn't talk down to his audience.
posted by ersatz at 5:28 AM on September 23, 2008

He's closer to being president now than he was 8 years ago. State by state polling wise, he's only a state or two behind. Ohio + 14 is a win. Ohio + Virginia is a fucking tie.
posted by garlic at 5:57 AM on September 23, 2008

O'Reilly Factor Attracts Hacker After Dare
"Was he asking for it? Conservative political pundit Bill O'Reilly's Web site was hacked into reportedly in retaliation for his comments on Fox News that denounced the e-mail intrusion of Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin. "
posted by various at 6:01 AM on September 23, 2008

So, has anyone heard any good Sarah Palin jokes?

Have you heard that Sarah Palin is writing a sequel to Hillary Clinton's book? It's called I Gave Birth to a Village.
posted by jonp72 at 8:51 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]

Palin Pandered to Wasilla's Wackiest Wingnuts
posted by jonp72 at 8:55 AM on September 23, 2008

Would I need to be Canadian to understand ٩๏̯͡๏)۶ ?
posted by lukemeister at 9:31 AM on September 23, 2008

That is an interesting illiteration jonp72.
posted by iamkimiam at 9:33 AM on September 23, 2008

So, has anyone heard any good Sarah Palin jokes?

Someone nominated her for VP...
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:57 AM on September 23, 2008 [2 favorites]

So, has anyone heard any good Sarah Palin jokes?

Someone nominated her for VP...

That is a joke, but not a good one.
posted by RussHy at 10:19 AM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]

"But the dirt is beginning to come out. Apparently, one of Sarah's first acts as Governor of Alaska was getting a tanning bed installed in the governor’s mansion. The Republican Party is okay with it, which is weird, because usually they ask themselves, 'How can we make our candidate more white?'" --Craig Ferguson
posted by RussHy at 10:26 AM on September 23, 2008 [5 favorites]

And how are you going to be the vice president of the United States with five kids to take care of? She's got a four-month-old of her own, she's about to become a grandmother, and she's partnered with John McCain. How many diapers can one woman possibly change?" --Jimmy Kimmel
posted by RussHy at 10:29 AM on September 23, 2008

holy wow this thing is long...

I bet you say that to all the boys.
posted by Grangousier at 12:07 PM on September 23, 2008

Meanwhile, on Twitter, it's "Substitute MOTHRA for MOTHER (or MOMMA) in Names, Quotes and Titles Day"... definately a possibility for Sarah Palin-centric humor, because she IS the Biggest Mothra in America right now...
posted by wendell at 1:01 PM on September 23, 2008

So, has anyone heard any good Sarah Palin jokes?

Didja hear about that new novelist, Wasilla Cather? She wrote a book about drug use in Alaska religious communities. It's called Meth Comes for the Archbishop.
posted by jonp72 at 2:38 PM on September 23, 2008 [3 favorites]

That is an interesting illiteration jonp72.

Illiteration: n., repetition of statements directly contrary to facts, e.g., "I said 'Thanks, but no thanks' to the Bridge to Nowhere."
posted by Mental Wimp at 3:29 PM on September 23, 2008

Palin linked electoral success to prayer of Kenyan witchhunter:

Mrs Palin, who was then preparing for her gubernatorial run, was anointed by Pastor Muthee. His intercession, she says, was “awesome”.

posted by ahughey at 4:42 PM on September 23, 2008 [1 favorite]

Troopergate twists and turns - Palin tried to block trooper's workman's comp claims; Todd Palin stalked trooper.
posted by Joey Michaels at 5:51 PM on September 23, 2008

I just wanted to say I participated in this thread, is all.
posted by Ryvar at 11:47 PM on September 23, 2008

Just a memento of HUUUUUGE thread.5380 comments!
posted by youhavetoreadthistwice at 1:22 AM on September 24, 2008

"She told me she felt she would see Jesus in her lifetime"
posted by matteo at 10:35 AM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

.
posted by schyler523 at 2:00 PM on September 24, 2008

Knock Knock.
Who's there?
Palin.
Palin who?
Palin comparison.

Too easy.
posted by yeti at 3:11 PM on September 24, 2008

Hello largeness my old thread
I've come to be visit ere you're dead
...
And listen
to the sounds
Of Palin
posted by cortex at 3:32 PM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

cortex,

In the spirit of bipartisanship, can you postpone the end of this thread so we can focus on the crisis on Wall Street?
posted by lukemeister at 4:36 PM on September 24, 2008 [5 favorites]

A mefite should be able to multitask.
posted by cortex at 4:47 PM on September 24, 2008 [4 favorites]

BAN MCCAIN
posted by dersins at 5:32 PM on September 24, 2008

Great, economic lessons from George Bush.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:06 PM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

This thread is so historic it should have a little plaque on the front.
posted by drezdn at 6:31 PM on September 24, 2008

Five thousand three hundred ninety-one comments in,
Palin inspires us, still, to crack wise.
Meanwhile her running mate's running for cover, while
folks like, um, Beavis (heh) feast on the lies.
posted by Balonious Assault at 8:33 PM on September 24, 2008

TODD PALIN: "DOOD!!! Sarah! You stole my secret gay snowmobile busness partner/ lover! I'm totally pisssed!"

NATIONAL ENQUIRER: We haz affadavits!
posted by kaibutsu at 9:35 PM on September 24, 2008 [1 favorite]

Wow, I remember once I asked a simple question in this thread and it turned into a total shitstorm.
posted by bink at 10:08 PM on September 24, 2008

If we don't make it to an aesthetically pleasing 5555 comments I'm going to be displeased. And nobody wants that, I trust.
posted by fucker at 1:18 AM on September 25, 2008

Sarah Palin is an ape!

Please don't even try to enjoy the Jimmy Carter ape as much as I do. I dare you to try.
posted by fucker at 1:40 AM on September 25, 2008

Cowardice: McCain Camp: Let's Push Back Biden-Palin Match-Up, Too
posted by chuckdarwin at 4:07 AM on September 25, 2008

...to a future date, like, um never.

Debate Skillz: I'll try to find you some and I'll bring them to you.
posted by Artw at 7:21 AM on September 25, 2008 [3 favorites]

I realized, watching the Couric interview, that Palin's tone of voice is almost exactly that of Grace, the secretary from Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Naturally, someone noticed that before I did.

And McCain is starting to look more and more like Principal Rooney toward the end of the movie...
posted by logicpunk at 8:20 AM on September 25, 2008 [1 favorite]

Wow, I remember once I asked a simple question in this thread and it turned into a total shitstorm.

That's because you're a baby murdering monster!!!
posted by cimbrog at 11:23 AM on September 25, 2008

5400! Say goodnight, Gracie.

Please?
posted by shiu mai baby at 12:16 PM on September 25, 2008

That's because you're a baby murdering monster!!!

Does that mean he is a murdering monster who is also an infant, one day to grow into a fully-formed mature murdering monster, or a monster that murders infants, or an infant who is, at this very moment, slaying a monster?

HYPHENS ARE IMPORTANT, PEOPLE
posted by Shepherd at 12:33 PM on September 25, 2008 [3 favorites]

Goodnight Gracie!
posted by GuyZero at 12:38 PM on September 25, 2008

I am sad to report that the username 'Gracie' is camped—userid 14565—by someone who never finished the signup process.
posted by cortex at 12:48 PM on September 25, 2008 [1 favorite]

Does that mean he is a murdering monster who is also an infant, one day to grow into a fully-formed mature murdering monster, or a monster that murders infants, or an infant who is, at this very moment, slaying a monster?

An infant who is at this very momenyt slaying this thread.
Yes, there re typos. I'm not about to reload this thread to turn off scripting so that I can ...
what was I typing, my text is about 1 miniute bhind me...
Damn live preview
posted by cimbrog at 12:55 PM on September 25, 2008

Kudos to you for even trying -- this monster takes minutes to load in my browser with Greasemonkey off, and I've been typing replies in Notepad to paste into the comment box. I haven't been able to live preview since #1500 or so.
posted by Shepherd at 1:03 PM on September 25, 2008

Yes, there re typos.

The Monster Thread: Here Thar Be Typos.
posted by amyms at 1:20 PM on September 25, 2008

Typos! That's where I'm a Viqing!
posted by lysdexic at 1:33 PM on September 25, 2008 [6 favorites]

Typing in Notepad is for pussies. Real men can't even see what the hell they're typing and don't preview!
Now, I have to say hat ... what was I talking about again?
Oh, yeah. Sarah Palin. People keep making htese Spice-girl/Barbie jokes now. Remeber when that was supposed to be a no-no?
man, this is pure stream of consciousness since I can't backspace to fix what I wrote.
Lets see if this if this finishes before I have to leave for home.
Watching the letters slowly type out is like watching your computer write by itself - get me an exorcist!
posted by cimbrog at 1:59 PM on September 25, 2008

Sarah Silverman: The Great Schlep
posted by keli at 3:07 PM on September 25, 2008 [3 favorites]

Carl Bernstein: The Palin Pick - The Devolution of McCain.

More Devolution
posted by Joey Michaels at 3:41 PM on September 25, 2008

I love you, longthread.
posted by sciurus at 5:19 PM on September 25, 2008

Sarah Palin thread, in just a few days you will close. You have comforted me. You have made me laugh. You have made me cry. You have educated me. You have angried up my blood.

You have brought me polar bears, abortion, state troopers, bridges, roads, teenagers, Russia, dinosaurs, tasers, babies, bad puns -- no, terrible puns, favorites, long refresh times, drilling, lipstick, caribou, scandal, cronyism, subpoenas, dodgy promotions, censorship, adultery, fundraising, pigs; and even a longboat or two.

DON'T LEAVE ME, SARAH PALIN THREAD!

What will I do without you?!
posted by bigbigdog at 5:45 PM on September 25, 2008 [1 favorite]

What will I do without you?!

74487.net?
posted by dersins at 5:56 PM on September 25, 2008

It's almost a shame that Sarah Palin will not win the election. She has been an amusing diversion.
posted by five fresh fish at 7:30 PM on September 25, 2008

I <3 The Thread!
posted by schyler523 at 8:17 PM on September 25, 2008

I move that we act now to bail out this thread! It is to big to fail.
who am I kidding. 6000 was just a crazy dream.
posted by Sailormom at 8:48 PM on September 25, 2008

I have returned to this thread near the end of its closure, thousands of comments and metric tons of recycled bile later, like that time The Doctor took Rose to see the end of the world in season one, so that I may leave you all with two little words that I think perfectly summarize what we've all been thinking about this whole time:

Monkey nipples.

*bows*
posted by middleclasstool at 9:07 PM on September 25, 2008

FOUR MORE YEARS! FOUR MORE YEARS!
posted by brain cloud at 9:46 PM on September 25, 2008

I'm proud to have posted to the thread to end all threads, one which was brought to us by Metafilter, the famous french chef, recipient of the Golden Frying Pan of Belgrade. Metafilter believes Palin adds a certain je ne sais quoi to its [mumble]. Metafilter sprinkles Palin on its pomme frites. Indeed, Metafilter loves Palin more than life itself. Finally Metafilter asks: "could it please have its bandwidth back?"*

* This is what happens when you try to remember a radio commercial from 25 years ago. Christ, I'm old.
posted by maxwelton at 10:03 PM on September 25, 2008

posted by cortex at 10:15 PM on September 25, 2008 [30 favorites]

.
posted by Bookhouse at 10:31 PM on September 25, 2008

Well, it's been fascinating. I'm so very gratified that Palin honeymoon seems to be over; the seeming credulity of media and analysts in viewing her as a serious (or at least glossy) candidate has been nerve wracking. But what's so odd about it all is that the dramatic weather change seems to be a direct result of the dubious strategy of the McCain campaign people.

If they hadn't quarantined her from the press, yes she would have made mistakes, bumbled, fumbled, and generally embarrassed the campaign in some -even many- statements, but I think she would have recovered to the degree of at least learning how to sidestep difficult questions more successfully and getting the basic talking points down - and of course dazzling with personality or novelty where she can't impress with substance... and the press would have let her do it, because they were delighted with their new toy. If she dropped the ball here and there, it would have been reported but not obssessed over, and she would have presumably gained confidence and and a bit more agility in the process.

As it stands now, the press has so little face time from her, and has been so thoroughly spurned, that whatever she manages to blurt out receives massive scrutiny and every misstep stands naked in the full glare of the spotlight. Knowing that her own people view her as a dangerous liability in this regard can't be encouraging, either, and she's basically fuelled by confidence rather than talent/ability - make her doubt herself, and she flags and stumbles.

Her hardcore supporters don't care about her qualifications, her skills or knowledge, her alleged corruption and mismanagement, voodoo witch doctors, affairs, pregnant teens, overweaning ambition and contempt for the truth - as long as she doesn't personally perform an abortion on live TV, they will be in her corner. Many others can be won over by charisma and the "plain folks like you" glamour; and many would be willing extend more latitude based on her "outsider" status and, possibly, gender (the "don't be mean to Sarah" thing). The press would report her fumbles but trumpet her bolder displays and continue to ask for recipes for caribou stew.. but for all that, there would have to be exposure. The "quick study" comment is a joke, but also probably true in terms of the campaign, at least... and I can't help but wonder if the Palin Containment strategy was spurred less by Troopergate/Bridge to Nowhere/abuse of office, and more by McCain being (rightfully) miffed by such slips as "a Palin-McCain administration". Curious.

also, whew! Bigthread is big.
posted by taz at 10:49 PM on September 25, 2008 [6 favorites]

Hey cortex? Do you think you could maybe turn on images for everybody just in this thread? Because that would be totally sweet.

I did have something relevant to say, but by the time the thread loaded I forgot what it was.
posted by grouse at 11:04 PM on September 25, 2008

Ah damn, we forgot to put film in the camera, we're going to have to start from the beginning. From the top, folks - and this time, with feeling! Everybody on their marks, sound's rolling and... ACTION!
posted by Alvy Ampersand at 11:37 PM on September 25, 2008 [1 favorite]

On the other hand, if the img tag was enabled, someone would have posted an 8MB Hubble pic instead of the treaty of Westfalia.
posted by ersatz at 3:23 AM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

What's the difference between a trained and an untrained monkey?
posted by =^^= at 4:38 AM on September 26, 2008

What's the difference between a trained and an untrained monkey?

Practice!

no, wait...
posted by minifigs at 6:02 AM on September 26, 2008

Got this in my email this am:

A 75 year old Texas rancher caught his hand in a gate while working cattle. The doctor sewing it up struck up a conversation with him. Eventually the topic got around to Sarah Palin and her bid to be a heartbeat away the presidency.

The old rancher said, 'Well, ya know, Palin is a post turtle.'

Not being familiar with the term, the doctor asked him what a post turtle was.

The rancher said, 'When you're driving down a country road and you come across a fence post with a turtle balanced on top, that's a post turtle.'

Seeing a puzzled look on the doctor's face, he continued to explain. 'You know she didn't get up there by herself. She doesn't belong up there. She doesn't know how to get down, and you just wonder what kind of idiot put her there to begin with.'

Heh - recycling Is there nothing it can't do?
posted by lysdexic at 6:54 AM on September 26, 2008 [3 favorites]

So I guess the all important question now is; can we get another 571 comments in three days? I'd like to see this bad boy get over 6k.
posted by quin at 7:16 AM on September 26, 2008

The truly amazing this is, this monster was only the beginning. Following this was the 1725 post Son of Monster Thread, the short-lived but fiery FAIL Monster Thread and now the 1000 post and still going Timeout for the Monster Thread. All said and done, beginning with this behemoth, Palin/McCain/Abortion has provided us with a good 8500 posts and counting. And there's still 40 some days of wackiness left.

Monster Thread itself may go to sleep in several days, buts like numerous Grendels, its legacy will live on until Obamawulf finally slays her in November and sails off triumphantly in his longboat.
posted by cimbrog at 7:57 AM on September 26, 2008

I'm still playing.
posted by MrMoonPie at 8:48 AM on September 26, 2008

Let me show you my pokemans.

MY POKEMANS
Let me show you them
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:09 AM on September 26, 2008

In the (hopefully comparitively much quieter) aftermath of the election, I'm going to need to so some Palin Threading analysis. This has been a weird phenomenon to be in the middle of.
posted by cortex at 9:22 AM on September 26, 2008

5500! Keep the dream alive!
posted by contessa at 9:47 AM on September 26, 2008

74487 - The Return of the img tag! Truly, this is a momentous thread in MeFi's history.
posted by ooga_booga at 10:33 AM on September 26, 2008

I had to open this thing just to see the image - it doesn't show in Recent Activity. I should get a medal.
posted by lysdexic at 12:22 PM on September 26, 2008

Cortex, awesome certificate of accomplishment. Props to the fine 8-bit font there. Also, I am glad I have a massive machine from which I can load, comment AND enjoy live (albeit slow) preview.

Also, get your fix for the latest Palin quotes at http://labs.google.com/inquotes/. Also available in a maple-flavoured Canadian edition and butter-chicken flavoured UK and Indian editions.
posted by GuyZero at 12:45 PM on September 26, 2008

At first I was all "what img tag? where?"

But loading this thread just for that certificate was totally worth it. (moar?)
posted by lunit at 1:19 PM on September 26, 2008

Wow, Cortex ... that sure is ...... Large.
posted by anastasiav at 1:30 PM on September 26, 2008

Sarah Palin Za Warudo!!!
Wryyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!

Awww, image tag only works for Cortex. I'll just leave this here anyways.
posted by cimbrog at 1:34 PM on September 26, 2008

I demand limericks!
posted by mwhybark at 1:34 PM on September 26, 2008

I demand limericks!

Using GuyZero's link!

I've been so focused on state government,
I haven't really focused much on the war in Iraq.
Now that I'm using this oven mitt,
I can adequately cover my bare rack.
posted by cimbrog at 1:46 PM on September 26, 2008

I'm sending you the bill for the damage to my retinas, Cortex. That was cruel.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:46 PM on September 26, 2008

an attack on Israel by Iran would be,
considered an attack on the United States.
I'd bend the ayatollah over my knee,
until he homosexually masturbates.
posted by cimbrog at 1:52 PM on September 26, 2008

It sorta looks needlepointesque.
posted by Artw at 1:57 PM on September 26, 2008

Victory in Iraq is finally in sight.
He wants to forfeit.
If I had my way I'd turn out the light,
And make punches to his dick a surfeit.

That was not good. How the hell do you rhyme with forfeit, Sarah?
posted by cimbrog at 1:59 PM on September 26, 2008

There once was this chick from Alaska
Who didn't know Russia from Nebraska
She tried to be veep
But the public went 'meep'
And now we are all being sarcast...a
posted by quin at 2:07 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

Conservative writer calls for Palin to step down.
posted by Joey Michaels at 2:30 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

I <3 this thread.
posted by Skorgu at 3:05 PM on September 26, 2008 [1 favorite]

Waxy has posted video footage of Sarah Palin's Miss Alaska swimsuit contest! Woo-hoo!
posted by GuyZero at 3:34 PM on September 26, 2008 [2 favorites]

"Contestant #8, Sarah Heath. Sarah says that she wants to prepare for a career in television broadcasting by majoring in Telecommunications and Political Science. It's no wonder that she has also been recognized by Who's Who, since she has explained her leadership in all areas, from academics to student politics to athletics, having led her basketball team to the championship at the state tournament. Ladies and gentleman, contestant #8, Sarah Heath."
posted by TheOnlyCoolTim at 4:24 PM on September 26, 2008

Sarah Palin Za Warudo!!!
Wryyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!

ITYM:

Sarahpalin ftag'hn! Ia! Ia! McCain ftag'hn! Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Sarapahlin W'assila wgah'nagl fhtagn!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 7:01 PM on September 26, 2008 [9 favorites]

How Sarah Palin Rallied Pakistan's Feminists

"What Zardari said after shaking Palin's hand will likely prove a great deal less memorable. "You are more gorgeous than you are on [television]," he told Palin after she declared she was honored to meet him. "Now I know why the whole of America is crazy about you," Zardari added, flashing his trademark teeth-baring smile.

At this point, the two were urged to shake hands again, presumably for the benefit of the cameras. "I'm supposed to pose again," Palin said quietly. Pointing toward the aide that prompted them, Zardari said, "If he's insisting, I might hug." "
posted by keli at 11:15 PM on September 26, 2008

tl;dr
posted by jnaps at 1:57 AM on September 27, 2008

McCain and his surrogate twat
Are campaigning on strictly bon mot
And they're betting the farm
On a plan to do harm
By conflating what's true with what's not.
posted by Balonious Assault at 7:33 AM on September 27, 2008 [4 favorites]

Old John needed a campaign thrilla
Rolled the dice on a dolt from Wasilla
Pitbull talks to no press
On John's hands now a mess
worse than jokes about rapist gorillas.
posted by dirtdirt at 10:46 AM on September 27, 2008

Am I the only one who pronounces "twat," "mot" and "not" so that none of them rhyme with each other. I'll note that I'm a non-Anglophone who picked up his English accent in New England.
posted by Kattullus at 11:55 AM on September 27, 2008

3 different sounds.
"tw-ah-t","m-oh", "n-aw-t"
Call me an elitist.
posted by pointilist at 12:38 PM on September 27, 2008

pointilist is an elitist.
posted by Sailormom at 1:36 PM on September 27, 2008

Thanks.
posted by pointilist at 2:29 PM on September 27, 2008

Too bad this thread won't make it to the debate. Bye thread.
posted by cashman at 3:56 PM on September 27, 2008

OK pointilist, you're an elitist, but that was a terrible haiku. I, on the other hand, am an American dipshit who only now has learned the correct pronunciation of "bon mot" but still thinks "twat" and "not" are acceptable rhymes. How's this instead:

Said McCain to the ignorant wench,
"Hon', whatever you do, don't speak French.
In fact, listen here, doll,
You'd best not speak at all.
This team needs you the most on the bench."
posted by Balonious Assault at 8:18 PM on September 27, 2008

This comment increases the number of comments in this thread by exactly one.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:21 PM on September 27, 2008

DAMMIT!

What I should have written was:

Every day, I get up and pray to Jah
And he increases the number of comments in this thread by exactly one.

Take the Palins bowling, take them bowling!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:01 PM on September 27, 2008 [2 favorites]

After thirty days, this thread will be longer (symbolically) than Palin's past political career... and if we're lucky, almost as long (literally) as her political future.
posted by wendell at 10:04 PM on September 27, 2008

You know what's so "wonderful" about Sarah Palin? If/when McCain loses, all the GOP Top Dudes get a WOMAN to blame!

Okay, I have just reached 42nd Level Snark. I quit.
posted by wendell at 10:05 PM on September 27, 2008 [1 favorite]

Everybody's going home for lunch these days.
posted by mwhybark at 10:08 PM on September 27, 2008

(ROU, I actually hit post without seeing your addendum.)
posted by mwhybark at 10:28 PM on September 27, 2008

It was not Haiku.
With a little work maybe
it would fit the beat.
posted by pointilist at 10:49 PM on September 27, 2008

McCain camp prays for Palin wedding

McCain is expected to have a front-row seat at Bristol’s wedding and to benefit from the outpouring of goodwill that it could bring. “What’s the downside?” a source inside the McCain campaign said. “It would be wonderful. I don’t know that there has ever been a pre-election wedding before.”
posted by keli at 11:18 PM on September 27, 2008

Every little bit helps. 5471!
posted by cgc373 at 3:28 AM on September 28, 2008

OK, here's a plan - when McCain/Palin LOSE THE ELECTION, the mods should close this thread. Then we can make a new thread about Palin's return to Alaska/indictment/trial/jail sentence.
posted by chuckdarwin at 3:40 AM on September 28, 2008

Don't die on me yet, thread. Ted, ned,bed, etc.
posted by ersatz at 7:24 AM on September 28, 2008

Palintology: The science dealing with Alaska's first female Governor and first Republican female candidate for Vice President of the United Sates.
posted by Sailormom at 10:34 AM on September 28, 2008

Hey, Palinthread.

We don't have that much time left together so lets make it count. Lie to me all night long.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:14 AM on September 28, 2008

Is the next Palin longboat thread ready yet?
posted by RussHy at 11:25 AM on September 28, 2008

I don’t know, you know…reporters.
posted by Sailormom at 1:05 PM on September 28, 2008

Soon after Sarah Palin was elected mayor of the foothill town of Wasilla, Alaska, she startled a local music teacher by insisting in casual conversation that men and dinosaurs coexisted on an Earth created 6,000 years ago -- about 65 million years after scientists say most dinosaurs became extinct -- the teacher said.

Palin told him that "dinosaurs and humans walked the Earth at the same time," Munger said. When he asked her about prehistoric fossils and tracks dating back millions of years, Palin said "she had seen pictures of human footprints inside the tracks," recalled Munger, who teaches music at the University of Alaska in Anchorage and has regularly criticized Palin in recent years on his liberal political blog, called Progressive Alaska.
posted by keli at 1:20 PM on September 28, 2008 [1 favorite]

Mocking?
posted by lysdexic at 1:31 PM on September 28, 2008

I just wanted to bid my farewell to this monster thread. it's been a good run, y'all.
posted by 8dot3 at 1:31 PM on September 28, 2008

I'm using an elderly machine that sometimes gets all wheezy and short of breath using YouTube, but I don't seem to have near as much trouble with this thread as a lot of people describe. Maybe it's because all the bells and whistles are off....

Pity the thread's ending, I get to feel technologically privileged for once.
posted by dilettante at 2:56 PM on September 28, 2008

dilettante, I have more (but still minor) problems commenting on my new core-2-duo with 4GB ram and specially conflugalized cromulators, and firefox3, than I do on our ancient, wheezy celeron-1 laptop with, I dunno, 32 bytes or ram or whatever and a power cord that won't stay plugged in, and FF 2.x.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 3:13 PM on September 28, 2008

Time: Sarah Palin's Foreign Policy Follies
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:09 PM on September 28, 2008

I found a coffee mug that says 'Sarah' on it and lists all of the great things about the name. So at breakfast this morning, I did my best to imitate the Markov Palin machine. I might try to throw a costume together for Halloween....
posted by kaibutsu at 4:16 PM on September 28, 2008

Aw, I'm actually feeling pretty sad about this thread ending. I'm going to miss it. It had become a routine.
posted by Ruki at 6:12 PM on September 28, 2008

I didn't see the thread in my Recent Activity and I thought it was all over. Let's savor these last moments.
posted by ersatz at 6:45 PM on September 28, 2008

Last!
posted by AsYouKnow Bob at 6:50 PM on September 28, 2008

Just remember not every setting sun that drops below the water drowns.
posted by Sailormom at 7:29 PM on September 28, 2008

Oh hey! No one has posted yesterday's SNL spoof of the Palin Couric interview already?
posted by Kattullus at 7:41 PM on September 28, 2008

"Though Sarah Palin depicts herself as a pit bull fighting good-old-boy politics, in her years as mayor she and her friends received special benefits more typical of small-town politics as usual, an Associated Press investigation shows."
posted by cashman at 7:57 PM on September 28, 2008

Electoral-vote.com had Kerry ahead until the very last day I believe.

While that's true, it's also slightly misleading since they it was running more than one algorithm - electoral-vote.com transparently provide info on their track record for more information. The commentary is also invaluable.

I really wouldn't pay a lot of attention to electoral-vote. Unless the methodology is different behind the scenes, it seems to just take the most recent poll and use that as gospel.

It currently averages all the non-partisan state polls from the last 7 days.
posted by HaloMan at 8:08 PM on September 28, 2008

John McCain is a butthole.
posted by cortex at 8:11 PM on September 28, 2008

Dear future readers, 



You have come to this thread to witness a part of Metafilter history; by and far the longest single conversation that we, as a group, have participated in. It is an amazing piece of collaborative work, where many of us, in keeping abreast of the shocking revelation of this Republican presidential running-mate, posted up to the minute stories as, and often before, they broke in the main stream media. 



In many cases, our words, often nearly verbatim, were used by pundits and anchors alike, suggesting that our beloved blue community is actually quite closely watched by many different media sources. A fact which should both thrill and, perhaps, frighten us a bit.



But to you, gentle reader, I say this; you have worked your way through this epic tome. You have seen us at our best, and our worst, you have endured many, many thousands of words, and some of you will have read every single one of them. An effort which has undoubtedly cost you more than a few hours...

SUCKER! That's some time you ain't gettin' back!
posted by quin at 8:19 PM on September 28, 2008 [2 favorites]

Hey, is there some non-brute force way to count the amount of unique responders in this thread? I'm guessing it's got to be around 50-60.

Goodbye thread. It was the best of threads, it was the worst of threads. "In what respect, Charlie?"
posted by cashman at 8:50 PM on September 28, 2008

Noooooo don't gooooooooo!!!!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 8:56 PM on September 28, 2008 [1 favorite]

Cracklin' Rosie

Cracklin' rosie, get on board
Were gonna ride till there ain't no more to go
Taking it slow
Lord, don't you know
Have made me a time with a poor mans lady

Hitchin' on a twilight train
Ain't nothing here that I care to take along
Maybe a song
To sing when I want
Don't need to say please to no man for a happy tune

Oh, I love my rosie child
You got the way to make me happy
You and me, we go in style
Cracklin' rose, you're a store bought woman
You make me sing like a guitar hummin'
So hang on to me, girl
Our song keeps runnin' on

Play it now
Play it now, my baby

Cracklin rosie, make me a smile
Girl if it lasts for an hour, that's alright
We got all night
To set the world right
Find us a dream that don't ask no questions, yeah

Oh, I love my rosie child
You got the way to make me happy
You and me, we go in style
Cracklin' rose, you're a store-bought woman
You make me sing like a guitar hummin'
So hang on to me, girl
Our song keeps runnin' on

Play it now
Play it now
Play it now, my baby

Cracklin' rosie, make me a smile
Girl if it lasts for an hour, that's all right
We got all night
To set the world right
Find us a dream that don't ask no question, yeah
posted by keli at 8:59 PM on September 28, 2008

Say good night Gracie.
posted by Sailormom at 9:03 PM on September 28, 2008

While the staunchest remained on the train
Throughout Palin's first weeks with McCain
They stopped singing ballads
When Sarah's word salads
Devolved into daft Markov chains.
posted by maryh at 9:10 PM on September 28, 2008 [1 favorite]

Can we at least get this to hit 5500?
posted by casarkos at 9:28 PM on September 28, 2008

...yes we can!
posted by casarkos at 9:30 PM on September 28, 2008

si se p5501de
posted by cortex at 9:39 PM on September 28, 2008 [1 favorite]

I can't let this thread end without making my mark. I love you, Sarah Palin thread, and I will remember you always.
posted by painquale at 10:38 PM on September 28, 2008

Even I must de-lurk to say ... I was here, and I read the whole damn thing. What a thread!
posted by Orb at 11:11 PM on September 28, 2008

So, here, at the melancholy twilight of greatness, let's tally the collective Palinyakk of Mefi, one month later:

MEFI
5,504 Sarah Palin as McCain's running-mate, Aug 29
37 Palin's Daughter is pregnant, Sep 1
2 Bristol Palin pregnant, Sep 1
7 How is babby faked?, Sep 1
0 Evaluation of Palin, Sep 7
71 Books Palin wanted banned, Sep 8
16 Any more dirt in this Palin?, Sep 10
37 Gershon parodies Palin, Sep 11
118 Tina Fey as Sarah Palin, Sep 13
1,737 Palin, pancakes, and the straight talk express, Sep 14
0 Track, Willow, Bristol, WFT?, Sep 14
215 Palin White Privilege, Sep 15
0 Palin's tanning bed, Sep 15
413 Sarah Palin's email gets hacked, Sep 17
98 Crazy preacher comes to the defense of Bristol Palin, Sep 24
461 Palin on Foreign Policy, Sep 25
26 The Sarah Palin look, Sep 25
89 Interview Sarah Palin, Sep 27
8,815 comments

META
260 Disgust at some comments in Palin thread, Aug 29
103, Palin thread loads very, very slowly, Sep 1
71 'Palin AMIRITE' deletion, Sep 1
132 Palin thread weirdness, Sep 3
98 Malkin: Palin Derangement Syndrome, Sep 6
22 Burden of the Palin thread, Sep 14
686 comments

We've yakked 9,501 times about Palin.
posted by dgaicun at 12:51 AM on September 29, 2008 [7 favorites]

O excellent thread, thou canst not abandon us to our own musing. Thou must gird thyself and prod us into further far-reaching glower and castigation. Thy nature crosseth us and maketh us to weep. We did not deserve thee, O thread, but we have made thee, and now we must abide thee always, as did The Dude abide.
posted by cgc373 at 1:42 AM on September 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

The Dude did abide.
posted by cgc373 at 1:43 AM on September 29, 2008

Hockey moms of Michigan

"She's scary. I tell you, everytime I see her I go home and open my wallet and write another cheque for Obama."
(...)
"I can't speak about how she feels entirely about political views and all of that. But when it comes to children that's a completely different thing and I think the fact that she has 5 and now that she has a challenged one on top of it, she's got to have some strong values in there where kids are concerned."
(...)
"I think we need somebody new in the office. But, and I hate to sound racist, but I'm not sure this country is ready for a black president. So, I don't know, I just don't know, I don't have a good feeling about it. Having a woman on the ballot, being a woman, is huge. I think it means a lot. Because a lot of times mums just are not recognised for what they do."

Scary indeed.
posted by =^^= at 2:42 AM on September 29, 2008

Sarah Palin ... Lurita Doan ... Republican clones.
posted by phoque at 3:33 AM on September 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Was just in Europe for over a week. It was really embarrassing to be asked about Palin. What can one say beyond, "I don't understand why, either?"

The last time I was in Europe, I was asked to explain how we could elect Reagan. Could we please elect someone that isn't mortifying? Please?
posted by QIbHom at 5:09 AM on September 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Where's the bridge? Has anybody seen the bridge?
posted by Sailormom at 5:24 AM on September 29, 2008

cortex, will I dream?
posted by shiu mai baby at 5:36 AM on September 29, 2008

Take me to the bridge!

/James Brown
posted by Grangousier at 5:36 AM on September 29, 2008

Remember, Great Big Palin Thread, I'm the only one that ever truly loved you.
posted by fucker at 5:53 AM on September 29, 2008

That's just not true, fucker. We all loved GBPT.
posted by cgc373 at 6:10 AM on September 29, 2008

Truly.
posted by cgc373 at 6:13 AM on September 29, 2008

We only have about an hour and a half to get to 5555 comments. I don't think we're going to make it.
posted by cgc373 at 6:14 AM on September 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

That's sad.
posted by cgc373 at 6:16 AM on September 29, 2008 [1 favorite]

Ah, when we're all celebrating the inauguration of President Palin in a few months' time, how we'll look back on this thread and laugh.
posted by Grangousier at 6:36 AM on September 29, 2008

And when our children ask "Where were you when 74487 happened?" we can say, "At our keyboards, like true patriots."
posted by yeti at 6:38 AM on September 29, 2008

Aren't you sad?
posted by cgc373 at 6:41 AM on September 29, 2008

I'm sad.
posted by cgc373 at 6:44 AM on September 29, 2008

We coulda made it to 6,000! We coulda be uh contenda!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:55 AM on September 29, 2008

It's so close.
posted by cgc373 at 6:58 AM on September 29, 2008

Of course you will, shiu mai baby. All intelligent beings dream.
posted by cortex at 6:58 AM on September 29, 2008

Just thirty-one comments.
posted by cgc373 at 6:59 AM on September 29, 2008

Even larks and katydids are supposed, by some, to dream.
posted by cgc373 at 7:00 AM on September 29, 2008

("Lark" and "Katydid" are—coincidentally—Sarah Palin's next two childrens' names.)
posted by cgc373 at 7:02 AM on September 29, 2008

Ceege has palindrome fever.

And the only prescription is more cowbelle bwoce rom.
posted by cortex at 7:02 AM on September 29, 2008

Where's fourcheesemac?
posted by cgc373 at 7:03 AM on September 29, 2008

You have only yourself—and Palin—and em dashes—to blame, cortex.
posted by cgc373 at 7:06 AM on September 29, 2008

It's still possible.
posted by cgc373 at 7:08 AM on September 29, 2008

There is hope.
posted by cgc373 at 7:09 AM on September 29, 2008

The passive voice cannot solve problems, but it can muffle them comfortingly.
posted by cgc373 at 7:11 AM on September 29, 2008

[Here imagine an "Is this thing on?" joke.]
posted by cgc373 at 7:12 AM on September 29, 2008

[Here's "Palin comparison. Too easy." repeated.]
posted by cgc373 at 7:13 AM on September 29, 2008

[Again.]
posted by cgc373 at 7:14 AM on September 29, 2008

So why not "Bristol Bay Palin"?
posted by cortex at 7:16 AM on September 29, 2008

[Here, another classic: "Does anybody read the comments down here?"]
posted by cgc373 at 7:16 AM on September 29, 2008

"Bristol Bay Palin" sounds more like a grandchild or great-grandchild to me. You know, a legacy name.
posted by cgc373 at 7:18 AM on September 29, 2008

She could name a kid "Spirit."
posted by cgc373 at 7:20 AM on September 29, 2008

"Link."
posted by cgc373 at 7:21 AM on September 29, 2008

"Trooper": That'd be hot.
posted by cgc373 at 7:22 AM on September 29, 2008

ASCII-O-Matic : Generate HTML

<>

 ________  __ __    __ __       __    ________ 
/\_____  \/\ \\ \  /\ \\ \    /'_ `\ /\_____  \
\/___//'/'\ \ \\ \ \ \ \\ \  /\ \L\ \\/___//'/'
    /' /'  \ \ \\ \_\ \ \\ \_\/_> _ <>

posted by fucker at 7:23 AM on September 29, 2008

Too much to hope for?
posted by cgc373 at 7:25 AM on September 29, 2008

"Stalin Palin."
posted by cgc373 at 7:26 AM on September 29, 2008

What about "Garp"?
posted by cgc373 at 7:29 AM on September 29, 2008

Garp Palin.
posted by cgc373 at 7:30 AM on September 29, 2008

Got a lilt to it, don't it?
posted by cgc373 at 7:31 AM on September 29, 2008

Well that ascii looked pretty good in the live preview anyway.
posted by fucker at 7:33 AM on September 29, 2008

A Lucasian cadence, like Darth Vader.
posted by cgc373 at 7:34 AM on September 29, 2008

Please let it end on 5555, people. Tis a sacred number, tis.
posted by fucker at 7:36 AM on September 29, 2008 [2 favorites]

Live preview is a devious hellbitch bent on tearing your very heart from your chest, fucker. don't sweat it.
posted by cortex at 7:36 AM on September 29, 2008

Goodnight, sweet prince.
posted by dirtdirt at 7:38 AM on September 29, 2008

Did you know the word grimace used to be pronounced grim-AYSS, not GRIM-uhss?
posted by cgc373 at 7:38 AM on September 29, 2008

I'm going to miss this thread.

Over all it's long, so so long, it's all over.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:46 AM on September 29, 2008 [15 favorites]

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