To Infinity Bagel, And Beyond!
December 7, 2009 5:10 PM Subscribe
"Center the bagel at the origin, circling the Z axis. A is the highest point above the +X axis. B is where the +Y axis enters the bagel. C is the lowest point below the -X axis. D is where the -Y axis exits the bagel."
Oh my god someone please solve that calculus question. I must know. My rusty math skills fail me.
posted by pants at 5:17 PM on December 7, 2009
posted by pants at 5:17 PM on December 7, 2009
Calling i_am_joe's_spleen - FPP you will be interested in...
posted by Samuel Farrow at 5:18 PM on December 7, 2009
posted by Samuel Farrow at 5:18 PM on December 7, 2009
That's a kaiser roll with a hole in it. These are bagels.
posted by GuyZero at 5:19 PM on December 7, 2009 [8 favorites]
posted by GuyZero at 5:19 PM on December 7, 2009 [8 favorites]
Eat now?
posted by eyeballkid at 5:19 PM on December 7, 2009
posted by eyeballkid at 5:19 PM on December 7, 2009
Möbius Lox was my Mizrahi themed Lemmy tribute band in high school.
posted by Smedleyman at 5:21 PM on December 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Smedleyman at 5:21 PM on December 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
So, what did they toast it with?
A toaster oven. Moving it around periodically so it gets approximately even toasting.
posted by battlebison at 5:21 PM on December 7, 2009
A toaster oven. Moving it around periodically so it gets approximately even toasting.
posted by battlebison at 5:21 PM on December 7, 2009
why you do this
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:23 PM on December 7, 2009
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:23 PM on December 7, 2009
Wait until they get to make Gordian pretzels.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:25 PM on December 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:25 PM on December 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
I need a video to understand that. Too much 3D spatial work for my poor brain.
Also, if you made a mobius strip out of every breakfast item, would you have an eternal breakfast?
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:27 PM on December 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
Also, if you made a mobius strip out of every breakfast item, would you have an eternal breakfast?
posted by mccarty.tim at 5:27 PM on December 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
That's making a toroidal fiber bundle out of the bagel, isn't it? Or at least it would if the division of the bagel was continued ad infinitum. There was a post earlier this year that had something to do with toroidal fiber bundles, which is where I learned about them, but I can't remember what it was about.
posted by XMLicious at 5:29 PM on December 7, 2009
posted by XMLicious at 5:29 PM on December 7, 2009
Man, George Hart is so cool. (If you haven't seen his sculptures, you should check them out!)
posted by leahwrenn at 5:33 PM on December 7, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by leahwrenn at 5:33 PM on December 7, 2009 [4 favorites]
Whoa, I was just--just!--reading this on another site. My mind is doubly blown.
posted by uncleozzy at 5:36 PM on December 7, 2009
posted by uncleozzy at 5:36 PM on December 7, 2009
thanks...just sent this to my math teacher wife......
posted by HuronBob at 5:37 PM on December 7, 2009
posted by HuronBob at 5:37 PM on December 7, 2009
Oh my god someone please solve that calculus question. I must know. My rusty math skills fail me.
If he used a mathematically ideal (or "Montreal") bagel with a perfectly circular cross-section of dough, I have a hunch it would be the same area as if he'd sliced it straight across.
Since he is using an irregular (or "New York") bagel in which the cross-section of dough is wider than it is high, he's almost certainly losing surface area by making a slice that sometimes runs along the short axis of the bagel instead of keeping to the long axis the whole way through.
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:37 PM on December 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
If he used a mathematically ideal (or "Montreal") bagel with a perfectly circular cross-section of dough, I have a hunch it would be the same area as if he'd sliced it straight across.
Since he is using an irregular (or "New York") bagel in which the cross-section of dough is wider than it is high, he's almost certainly losing surface area by making a slice that sometimes runs along the short axis of the bagel instead of keeping to the long axis the whole way through.
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:37 PM on December 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
These sharpie markings on the bagel are just to help visualize the geometry and the points.
You don't need to actually write on the bagel to cut it properly.
This says a lot about the intended audience.
posted by woodway at 5:49 PM on December 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
You don't need to actually write on the bagel to cut it properly.
This says a lot about the intended audience.
posted by woodway at 5:49 PM on December 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
Protip: This doesn't work so hot with a pre-sliced bagel.
Adds "Find Bagel Shop" to Tuesday's to-do list.
posted by niles at 5:51 PM on December 7, 2009
Adds "Find Bagel Shop" to Tuesday's to-do list.
posted by niles at 5:51 PM on December 7, 2009
leahwrenn's link is a goldmine, too. The bagel is amusing (if inedible), but many of his other pieces are awesome. Plus: an homage to Meret Oppenheim.
posted by maudlin at 5:56 PM on December 7, 2009
posted by maudlin at 5:56 PM on December 7, 2009
Oh my god someone please solve that calculus question. I must know. My rusty math skills fail me.
My math skills aren't professional but are at least mostly non-rusty and I don't even know where to start. No wait, actually I do: Purchasing a bagel and cutting it. I can't even visualize what's going on.
posted by DU at 6:20 PM on December 7, 2009
My math skills aren't professional but are at least mostly non-rusty and I don't even know where to start. No wait, actually I do: Purchasing a bagel and cutting it. I can't even visualize what's going on.
posted by DU at 6:20 PM on December 7, 2009
Next time you enter a room, proclaim in a stentorian tone, "I am Mobius Lox."
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:35 PM on December 7, 2009 [3 favorites]
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 6:35 PM on December 7, 2009 [3 favorites]
Goes great with a Klein bottle of beer.
posted by qvantamon at 6:54 PM on December 7, 2009 [4 favorites]
posted by qvantamon at 6:54 PM on December 7, 2009 [4 favorites]
I don't think that they would take to me kindly at my bagel store if I was choosy about which particular bagels from the bin I wanted: "No, I need the one to the left. The one with the biggest hole! It's for an edible art project."
posted by k8lin at 7:11 PM on December 7, 2009
posted by k8lin at 7:11 PM on December 7, 2009
As a topologist, this is an incredible help. Each morning I sit down to breakfast and complain that I can't tell the difference between my doughnut and my coffee cup, but this little trick should allow me to finally distinguish them.
posted by twoleftfeet at 7:32 PM on December 7, 2009 [11 favorites]
posted by twoleftfeet at 7:32 PM on December 7, 2009 [11 favorites]
Roger samfarrow, I read you.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:10 PM on December 7, 2009
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 8:10 PM on December 7, 2009
re George Hart: that is beautiful work. I'd bet he is using Rhinoceros.
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 8:31 PM on December 7, 2009
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 8:31 PM on December 7, 2009
oh well.
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 8:33 PM on December 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Mei's lost sandal at 8:33 PM on December 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
Man, that guy must have some seriously advanced spacial intelligence. I couldn't even imagine how to start making one of these, but presumably he had it all envisioned in his mind beforehand.
posted by Dr. Send at 8:36 PM on December 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
posted by Dr. Send at 8:36 PM on December 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
Man, that guy must have some seriously advanced spacial intelligence. I couldn't even imagine how to start making one of these, but presumably he had it all envisioned in his mind beforehand.
The torus is a pretty fundamental geometric figure. To us breakfast-folk "torus" is another word for a theoretical, and therefore flavorless, bagel. I'm not a (professional) culinary mathmagician but I'm pretty sure that this whole thing has been worked out ages ago. Most likely before bagels were even invented. This is the first time I've seen creme cheese applied to the formula, however.
posted by chemoboy at 10:50 PM on December 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
The torus is a pretty fundamental geometric figure. To us breakfast-folk "torus" is another word for a theoretical, and therefore flavorless, bagel. I'm not a (professional) culinary mathmagician but I'm pretty sure that this whole thing has been worked out ages ago. Most likely before bagels were even invented. This is the first time I've seen creme cheese applied to the formula, however.
posted by chemoboy at 10:50 PM on December 7, 2009 [1 favorite]
Goes great with a Klein bottle of beer.
I got yer Klein Bottle right here!
But wouldn't you prefer a Klein Stein?
And perhaps you need some sierpinski cookies to go with your beer?
Or, a pie-cosahedron?
And of course (back to George Hart), you'll need some cutlery to eat with...
posted by leahwrenn at 11:36 PM on December 7, 2009 [3 favorites]
I got yer Klein Bottle right here!
But wouldn't you prefer a Klein Stein?
And perhaps you need some sierpinski cookies to go with your beer?
Or, a pie-cosahedron?
And of course (back to George Hart), you'll need some cutlery to eat with...
posted by leahwrenn at 11:36 PM on December 7, 2009 [3 favorites]
Just cut a bagel to these specs. I still don't get it, nor do I know how I'd figure the area of the cut.
posted by DU at 4:52 AM on December 8, 2009
posted by DU at 4:52 AM on December 8, 2009
I had a bagel this morning for the first time in ages and totally failed to want to try to do this. So it is possible.
posted by Eideteker at 5:39 AM on December 8, 2009
posted by Eideteker at 5:39 AM on December 8, 2009
Calculus... calculus...
It's time to reconsider how much thought went into that plate of beans.
posted by Hardcore Poser at 9:01 AM on December 8, 2009
It's time to reconsider how much thought went into that plate of beans.
posted by Hardcore Poser at 9:01 AM on December 8, 2009
If he used a mathematically ideal (or "Montreal") bagel with a perfectly circular cross-section of dough, I have a hunch it would be the same area as if he'd sliced it straight across.
From some analysis I (and coworkers) have done, I think this is right but typing it all in...ugh. You don't really need calculus to solve it, either. Well, maybe rigorously.
posted by DU at 10:28 AM on December 9, 2009
From some analysis I (and coworkers) have done, I think this is right but typing it all in...ugh. You don't really need calculus to solve it, either. Well, maybe rigorously.
posted by DU at 10:28 AM on December 9, 2009
Actually, I'm going to do a blog post about it, with pictures. It won't be up probably for a couple days, but if you really really really care (which nobody does) I'll send you a link later. (Or you can find it if you look not-too-hard.)
posted by DU at 11:55 AM on December 9, 2009
posted by DU at 11:55 AM on December 9, 2009
From some analysis I (and coworkers) have done, I think this is right but typing it all in...ugh. You don't really need calculus to solve it, either. Well, maybe rigorously.
Yeah, I was sort of puzzled by that, because I feel like it should be solvable using straight-up algebra and geometry.
I think the question is whether the twist in a moebius strip adds to its surface area. That is, let's say you've got a moebius strip that's W units wide; and let's say that if you pick a point on the strip and drive straight down the middle until you return to that point, you've traveled C units. Is the surface area of the strip just W*C, like it would be if you cut it into pieces and ironed them flat? Or is there extra area because the pieces aren't flat?
If there's extra area due to the curvature, that's where the calculus comes in.
posted by nebulawindphone at 2:31 PM on December 9, 2009
Yeah, I was sort of puzzled by that, because I feel like it should be solvable using straight-up algebra and geometry.
I think the question is whether the twist in a moebius strip adds to its surface area. That is, let's say you've got a moebius strip that's W units wide; and let's say that if you pick a point on the strip and drive straight down the middle until you return to that point, you've traveled C units. Is the surface area of the strip just W*C, like it would be if you cut it into pieces and ironed them flat? Or is there extra area because the pieces aren't flat?
If there's extra area due to the curvature, that's where the calculus comes in.
posted by nebulawindphone at 2:31 PM on December 9, 2009
I've written down an integral for the surface area of the cut, but it's a complete mess. But it seems to me that the twist must add area. If you twist the cut a million times as you go around, the surface area would be huge! So the single-twist case probably has more surface area, too.
Another way to thing about it: look at the length of the curves where the cut intersects the outside surface of the bagel. These curves are longer when you twist than when you don't. So the surface area of the cut ought to be larger, too.
posted by samw at 5:41 PM on December 9, 2009
Another way to thing about it: look at the length of the curves where the cut intersects the outside surface of the bagel. These curves are longer when you twist than when you don't. So the surface area of the cut ought to be larger, too.
posted by samw at 5:41 PM on December 9, 2009
No, you are right--it's not the same area. With another coworker I think I solved the whole thing. Still doesn't need calculus. Archimedes could have solved this problem (assuming I solved it right).
posted by DU at 6:58 AM on December 10, 2009
posted by DU at 6:58 AM on December 10, 2009
Mind sharing how you worked it out? It's always good when there's a solution that doesn't involve the big gun of calculus.
posted by samw at 4:17 PM on December 10, 2009
posted by samw at 4:17 PM on December 10, 2009
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posted by slackdog at 5:12 PM on December 7, 2009