They’ll bury me before they hear the whole story.
April 22, 2010 6:54 AM Subscribe
After a seven-year hiatus full of rumor and speculation, Christian singer-songwriter Jennifer Knapp has returned to touring and recording. Apparently, some rumors were true.
Knapp may not be a household name, but within the genre of Contemporary Christian Music, she's a well-known, respected artist who took the "Lilith Fair" confessional folk-rock style and married it to honest, soul-searching lyrics about faith and doubt. In 2004, she took an abrupt leave from recording and performing, citing exhaustion. Less than a year ago, she quietly started a Twitter account, playing shows and eventually releasing news of her upcoming album.
Reaction to her coming out (especially amongst Evangelicals, who comprised most of her fan base) has been mixed; some positive, some thoughtful, and some more predictable reactions.
This is not the first time a high-profile CCM artist has come out of the closet.
Knapp may not be a household name, but within the genre of Contemporary Christian Music, she's a well-known, respected artist who took the "Lilith Fair" confessional folk-rock style and married it to honest, soul-searching lyrics about faith and doubt. In 2004, she took an abrupt leave from recording and performing, citing exhaustion. Less than a year ago, she quietly started a Twitter account, playing shows and eventually releasing news of her upcoming album.
Reaction to her coming out (especially amongst Evangelicals, who comprised most of her fan base) has been mixed; some positive, some thoughtful, and some more predictable reactions.
This is not the first time a high-profile CCM artist has come out of the closet.
There was also the recent coming out of Tonéx, which was discussed on MetaFilter (I recommend tracking down the New Yorker article, it's really fascinating).
posted by Kattullus at 7:19 AM on April 22, 2010
posted by Kattullus at 7:19 AM on April 22, 2010
Wow, thanks for this post. I've never heard of her before, and her music is pretty good. Couldn't Knapp just ditch the "CCM" scene, sign on with a different label (or release her own music over the internet)? That way her sexuality would cease to be an issue.
posted by KokuRyu at 7:35 AM on April 22, 2010
posted by KokuRyu at 7:35 AM on April 22, 2010
From the YouTube comments:
JSTN0027 She is very talented.. Love her music. As for giving christians a bad rep they do that themselves when they judge others. God loves her the way she is. Kudos Jen for your courage and strength.. Lookin forward to the new album in stores. 2 days ago
milkwayusa @JSTN0027 God loves everyone and anyone. But don't ever forget those who walk fulfilling the flesh, can't please Him. The Word of God is Not a needle to sew up, or cover up someone's behaviour. , it's a sword, to cut and fix someone's heart and emotions..
posted by KokuRyu at 7:37 AM on April 22, 2010
JSTN0027 She is very talented.. Love her music. As for giving christians a bad rep they do that themselves when they judge others. God loves her the way she is. Kudos Jen for your courage and strength.. Lookin forward to the new album in stores. 2 days ago
milkwayusa @JSTN0027 God loves everyone and anyone. But don't ever forget those who walk fulfilling the flesh, can't please Him. The Word of God is Not a needle to sew up, or cover up someone's behaviour. , it's a sword, to cut and fix someone's heart and emotions..
posted by KokuRyu at 7:37 AM on April 22, 2010
Good for her. I've never heard her, and wouldn't listen to "Contemporary Christian Music" with someone else's ears on a desert island, but, anyway, good for her.
And can't CCR sue somebody for "CCM"?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:37 AM on April 22, 2010
And can't CCR sue somebody for "CCM"?
posted by flapjax at midnite at 7:37 AM on April 22, 2010
Hey, she's pretty good! Thanks for the post, anthom!
posted by Kattullus at 7:41 AM on April 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
posted by Kattullus at 7:41 AM on April 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
KokuRyu: "milkwayusa @JSTN0027 God loves everyone and anyone. But don't ever forget those who walk fulfilling the flesh, can't please Him. The Word of God is Not a needle to sew up, or cover up someone's behaviour. , it's a sword, to cut and fix someone's heart and emotions.. "
Sad, isn't it?
posted by notsnot at 7:41 AM on April 22, 2010
Sad, isn't it?
posted by notsnot at 7:41 AM on April 22, 2010
I know every time I need to fix something, I reach for my sword.
posted by adamdschneider at 7:44 AM on April 22, 2010
posted by adamdschneider at 7:44 AM on April 22, 2010
From the 'About Me' section of the more predictable reactions link:
This blog attempts to provide Conservative thinking with a sound theological and philosophical foundation.
This, this, this is the problem. The Christian religion is not a political tool, not some sort of way to justify preëxisting* political convictions, left or right. That, not Inclusion of the Gays, is the best way to ensure the destruction of the Christian tradition in the western world. This guy is a cultural Christian, as much as he may seem to rant against that category.
Maybe I'm just reading Christianity Today with very different eyes now -- but it seems to have completely become an organ of the far right. Of course it was always a right-of-centre voice, and rightfully so: evangelicals in the US have tended so to be for the last fifty-ish years. (Conflation of 'evangelical' and 'Christian' is another can of worms altogether, of course -- let alone the fact that evangelicals have been at the forefront of social change since Martin Luther got out his hammer.) But surely CT used to at least give a few token quotes to progressive evangelicals (Campolo, Wallis) and to mainline Prot / Catholic go-to figures. That article, though... nothing.
It's like for them, half of the Christians in the United States simply don't exist.
*clearly I've been reading the New Yorker too much. It Just. Looks. Wrong. the other way....
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:47 AM on April 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
This blog attempts to provide Conservative thinking with a sound theological and philosophical foundation.
This, this, this is the problem. The Christian religion is not a political tool, not some sort of way to justify preëxisting* political convictions, left or right. That, not Inclusion of the Gays, is the best way to ensure the destruction of the Christian tradition in the western world. This guy is a cultural Christian, as much as he may seem to rant against that category.
Maybe I'm just reading Christianity Today with very different eyes now -- but it seems to have completely become an organ of the far right. Of course it was always a right-of-centre voice, and rightfully so: evangelicals in the US have tended so to be for the last fifty-ish years. (Conflation of 'evangelical' and 'Christian' is another can of worms altogether, of course -- let alone the fact that evangelicals have been at the forefront of social change since Martin Luther got out his hammer.) But surely CT used to at least give a few token quotes to progressive evangelicals (Campolo, Wallis) and to mainline Prot / Catholic go-to figures. That article, though... nothing.
It's like for them, half of the Christians in the United States simply don't exist.
*clearly I've been reading the New Yorker too much. It Just. Looks. Wrong. the other way....
posted by tivalasvegas at 7:47 AM on April 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
When all you have is a sword, everything looks like a nice piece of flesh waiting to be pierced.
posted by oddman at 7:48 AM on April 22, 2010 [8 favorites]
posted by oddman at 7:48 AM on April 22, 2010 [8 favorites]
When you have a Gollum everything looks like a my precious nasty hobbitses STOLE it from me.
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:50 AM on April 22, 2010 [12 favorites]
posted by Astro Zombie at 7:50 AM on April 22, 2010 [12 favorites]
When all you have is a Sauron Wearing The One Ring, everything looks like a Last Alliance of Elves and Men, or, in this case, Women and Other Women.
(Though I actually came in to express the sentiments that I see EarBucket has beaten me to.)
posted by thoughtless at 7:58 AM on April 22, 2010
(Though I actually came in to express the sentiments that I see EarBucket has beaten me to.)
posted by thoughtless at 7:58 AM on April 22, 2010
Glad to hear she's going to be recording again. Love her stuff. A great talent and an immense opportunity to use her faith and lifestyle to confront the prejudice and judgmental attitudes in the fundie community (of which I used to be a part).
posted by schleppo at 8:02 AM on April 22, 2010
posted by schleppo at 8:02 AM on April 22, 2010
kokuryu: Couldn't Knapp just ditch the "CCM" scene, sign on with a different label (or release her own music over the internet)?
It looks like she's attempting that (at least in part) with this new release. Different (non-religious, AFAIK) record label, songs that aren't explicitly "Jesus-y," no promotion to Christian bookstores, etc. She still identifies herself as a Christian, though, so potential new fans may still paint her with the broad brush of Christian music.
I'm really interested to see how it works out for her.
posted by anthom at 8:11 AM on April 22, 2010
It looks like she's attempting that (at least in part) with this new release. Different (non-religious, AFAIK) record label, songs that aren't explicitly "Jesus-y," no promotion to Christian bookstores, etc. She still identifies herself as a Christian, though, so potential new fans may still paint her with the broad brush of Christian music.
I'm really interested to see how it works out for her.
posted by anthom at 8:11 AM on April 22, 2010
flapjax - I guess they didn't sue Cross Canadian Ragweed.
posted by bitterkitten at 8:14 AM on April 22, 2010
posted by bitterkitten at 8:14 AM on April 22, 2010
Or the Center for Constitutional Rights, for that matter...
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:17 AM on April 22, 2010
posted by flapjax at midnite at 8:17 AM on April 22, 2010
This will drive the fundies berserk.
Actually, it probably won't, because the real "fundies" wouldn't have been listening to her anyways. Her music would qualify as too "worldly," i.e. it sounds like stuff you hear on pop radio and isn't relentlessly cheery.
Knapp's main audience was mainstream evangelical types, not hardcore fundamentalists. Most evangelicals have a far more complicated position on homosexuality than your Westboro Baptist types and others who self-described as "fundamentalists". Granted, most evangelicals don't think homosexuality is okay--it's common to make a distinction between homosexual activity and homosexual desires--but most of these people aren't going to be particularly militant about it because they aren't going to get particularly militant about anything when it comes right down to it. If there's one dominant characteristic of most mainstream evangelical churches it's overweening niceness of the sort which doesn't let you say intentionally bad things about anybody.
Diabetics be warned: this sort of culture is so sugary it could send you into immediate insulin shock.
posted by valkyryn at 8:21 AM on April 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
Actually, it probably won't, because the real "fundies" wouldn't have been listening to her anyways. Her music would qualify as too "worldly," i.e. it sounds like stuff you hear on pop radio and isn't relentlessly cheery.
Knapp's main audience was mainstream evangelical types, not hardcore fundamentalists. Most evangelicals have a far more complicated position on homosexuality than your Westboro Baptist types and others who self-described as "fundamentalists". Granted, most evangelicals don't think homosexuality is okay--it's common to make a distinction between homosexual activity and homosexual desires--but most of these people aren't going to be particularly militant about it because they aren't going to get particularly militant about anything when it comes right down to it. If there's one dominant characteristic of most mainstream evangelical churches it's overweening niceness of the sort which doesn't let you say intentionally bad things about anybody.
Diabetics be warned: this sort of culture is so sugary it could send you into immediate insulin shock.
posted by valkyryn at 8:21 AM on April 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
Look, we're all ignoring the REAL issue: the hideous graphic design for her new album cover. That's the abomination here.
Marry/Sleep with whomever you want, I say. but for the love of all that is holy, let's put an end to such travesties in design.
posted by eustacescrubb at 8:22 AM on April 22, 2010 [6 favorites]
Marry/Sleep with whomever you want, I say. but for the love of all that is holy, let's put an end to such travesties in design.
posted by eustacescrubb at 8:22 AM on April 22, 2010 [6 favorites]
I understand why people think she should disengage herself from the Christian moniker and I can understand why she might want to but it seems that it would be a greater benefit to everyone if she could keep her Christian identity and still live her life as an out lesbian. It's a shame that the default position is that gay and Christian are irreconcilable.
I don't mean to suggest that would be easy or that I would condemn her for not doing it but any step any person can make to rehabilitate the absurd relationship between many Christians and gay people would be a net plus.
posted by Babblesort at 8:25 AM on April 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
I don't mean to suggest that would be easy or that I would condemn her for not doing it but any step any person can make to rehabilitate the absurd relationship between many Christians and gay people would be a net plus.
posted by Babblesort at 8:25 AM on April 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
We should have left behind intolerance in the last century. Instead we're stuck with a group of people enraptured by the idea that their deity anointed them with the calling to judge others for their way of life and personal relationships.
posted by euphorb at 8:44 AM on April 22, 2010
posted by euphorb at 8:44 AM on April 22, 2010
I note sadly from the comments to the Advocate story that in some quarters of our country being gay is still labelled a "choice." Because of course one would choose to literally go walking in the desert for eight years, leave friends, family, and alienate fans because HEY, why the F not, right guyz?
posted by 1adam12 at 8:44 AM on April 22, 2010
posted by 1adam12 at 8:44 AM on April 22, 2010
KokuRyu: "milkwayusa @JSTN0027 God loves everyone and anyone. But don't ever forget those who walk fulfilling the flesh, can't please Him. The Word of God is Not a needle to sew up, or cover up someone's behaviour. , it's a sword, to cut and fix someone's heart and emotions.. "
In the words of another prophet: That's when I reach for my revolver
posted by spicynuts at 9:01 AM on April 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
Marry/Sleep with whomever you want, I say. but for the love of all that is holy, let's put an end to such travesties in design.
This may be true, but it could be a case of knowing their market.
posted by krinklyfig at 9:11 AM on April 22, 2010
This may be true, but it could be a case of knowing their market.
posted by krinklyfig at 9:11 AM on April 22, 2010
SE Kansas Represent! Or something. Good on her.
posted by sleepy pete at 9:26 AM on April 22, 2010
posted by sleepy pete at 9:26 AM on April 22, 2010
I can assure you that my college-age, deeply Christian daughter, attending a relatively conservative Christian university, won't give one care about Knapp's sexual preference. All she will care about is her music and whether it speaks to her faith. Her friends are of the same mind. They're cool like that.
posted by Thorzdad at 9:29 AM on April 22, 2010
posted by Thorzdad at 9:29 AM on April 22, 2010
Marry/Sleep with whomever you want, I say. but for the love of all that is holy, let's put an end to such travesties in design.
For some reason when I saw the cover, I automatically thought of this other Kansas singer/songwriter and this one by another famous Christian artist who moved out of Christian music (I think, that's what wiki says anyway).
posted by sleepy pete at 9:42 AM on April 22, 2010
For some reason when I saw the cover, I automatically thought of this other Kansas singer/songwriter and this one by another famous Christian artist who moved out of Christian music (I think, that's what wiki says anyway).
posted by sleepy pete at 9:42 AM on April 22, 2010
Jennifer Knapp was my first serious crush.
I came in here to post something slightly confessional too. If she'd been around when I was a (closeted) gay teen, active in the church**, with a closet full of christian rock artist T-shirts, things would have been sooooo much easier. To have a role model, to know that someone isn't afraid to be up-front about who they are -- or if they afraid, that they have the courage to speak out anyway -- that is absolutely, non-hyperbolically priceless to kids who are trying to come to terms not with their own identity, but with how accepting of it others are going to be. That's especially true for kids active in a congregation, because evidence of judgment is everywhere -- even (and especially) in the congregations that swear that they accept everybody. Always in the back of your head is the fear that you might lose your family, your friends, and god.
By coming out, she has saved lives. I hope she realizes that. I don't think she does. From the tone of her Christianity Today interview (whose interviewer sounded a little like he/she wanted her to repent), it seemed like she's still got some conflicted feelings, like she's not sure it's actually OK that she's gay. Her tone makes it sound like she knows she's going to lose the respect of a lot of her peers and fans, but it also sounds like she's afraid that she's going to lose her god. And that's very sad. I hope she can get past that and realize that she's just provided a lot of healing for a lot of people, and I hope she can find some healing for herself, because she deserves it just as much.
** The only reason I even started going to church is that I had a huge crush on Amy Grant after watching her TV Christmas special in 1986. For some reason, church was the next logical step. But let's not kid ourselves, it wasn't God I was crushing on.
I sure wish there'd been a Jennifer Knapp back in those days.
posted by mudpuppie at 9:49 AM on April 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
I came in here to post something slightly confessional too. If she'd been around when I was a (closeted) gay teen, active in the church**, with a closet full of christian rock artist T-shirts, things would have been sooooo much easier. To have a role model, to know that someone isn't afraid to be up-front about who they are -- or if they afraid, that they have the courage to speak out anyway -- that is absolutely, non-hyperbolically priceless to kids who are trying to come to terms not with their own identity, but with how accepting of it others are going to be. That's especially true for kids active in a congregation, because evidence of judgment is everywhere -- even (and especially) in the congregations that swear that they accept everybody. Always in the back of your head is the fear that you might lose your family, your friends, and god.
By coming out, she has saved lives. I hope she realizes that. I don't think she does. From the tone of her Christianity Today interview (whose interviewer sounded a little like he/she wanted her to repent), it seemed like she's still got some conflicted feelings, like she's not sure it's actually OK that she's gay. Her tone makes it sound like she knows she's going to lose the respect of a lot of her peers and fans, but it also sounds like she's afraid that she's going to lose her god. And that's very sad. I hope she can get past that and realize that she's just provided a lot of healing for a lot of people, and I hope she can find some healing for herself, because she deserves it just as much.
** The only reason I even started going to church is that I had a huge crush on Amy Grant after watching her TV Christmas special in 1986. For some reason, church was the next logical step. But let's not kid ourselves, it wasn't God I was crushing on.
I sure wish there'd been a Jennifer Knapp back in those days.
posted by mudpuppie at 9:49 AM on April 22, 2010 [2 favorites]
Look, we're all ignoring the REAL issue: the hideous graphic design for her new album cover. That's the abomination here.
OK, so I admit to being a design idiot, but what is so bad about the design?
posted by I am the Walrus at 9:59 AM on April 22, 2010
OK, so I admit to being a design idiot, but what is so bad about the design?
posted by I am the Walrus at 9:59 AM on April 22, 2010
OK, so I admit to being a design idiot, but what is so bad about the design?
For one thing, the colors are hideous. It also really irritates me when people use handwriting fonts instead of actual handwriting, especially when the text is only nine letters long (and features two sets of doubled characters right next to each other! so you can see that they're identical!). The font used for her name has some serious spacing issues (look at how dense it looks around the two Ns in her first name compared to how spaced-out it looks whenever there's an E). Also, the colors are hideous. It also looks like there's some pretty obvious Z-grade photoshopping done to extend the upward strands of hair (there's a bigger picture of the cover here). Also the colors are hideous.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:18 AM on April 22, 2010
For one thing, the colors are hideous. It also really irritates me when people use handwriting fonts instead of actual handwriting, especially when the text is only nine letters long (and features two sets of doubled characters right next to each other! so you can see that they're identical!). The font used for her name has some serious spacing issues (look at how dense it looks around the two Ns in her first name compared to how spaced-out it looks whenever there's an E). Also, the colors are hideous. It also looks like there's some pretty obvious Z-grade photoshopping done to extend the upward strands of hair (there's a bigger picture of the cover here). Also the colors are hideous.
posted by shakespeherian at 10:18 AM on April 22, 2010
That song in Kattullus's link is awesome. I am embarrassed to admit that (like flapjax at midnite) knowing that something is "CCM" instantly biases me against it (to the "not with someone else's ears" eye-rolling stage), especially since I clicked that link ready to be condescending and "well, it's not as shite as most god-bothery music" about it, and instead I really REALLY liked that song, and her voice, and her guitar playing, and that performance. And I would never have listened to it had it not been linked here by someone whose opinion I respect.
Shame on me for being a bigot when I am so quick to judge others for the same thing, especially since I preach the Lemmy code of music appreciation as a general rule ("there's only two kinds of music: the kind you like, and the kind you don't"). Surely if I can listen to AC/DC or Eminem or whoever sing over-the-top misogynistic crap and overlook the sexism because I find it amusing and enjoy the music, I can listen to someone sing about their faith if the music is good, but somehow the former is easier than the latter for me.
posted by biscotti at 10:30 AM on April 22, 2010 [6 favorites]
Shame on me for being a bigot when I am so quick to judge others for the same thing, especially since I preach the Lemmy code of music appreciation as a general rule ("there's only two kinds of music: the kind you like, and the kind you don't"). Surely if I can listen to AC/DC or Eminem or whoever sing over-the-top misogynistic crap and overlook the sexism because I find it amusing and enjoy the music, I can listen to someone sing about their faith if the music is good, but somehow the former is easier than the latter for me.
posted by biscotti at 10:30 AM on April 22, 2010 [6 favorites]
AfterEllen.com just posted an interview with Jennifer Knapp.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 10:50 AM on April 22, 2010
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 10:50 AM on April 22, 2010
Congratulations to Ms. Knapp. Now to the more interesting issue biscotti: there is an inescapable reductio ad absurdum in Contemporary Christian Music. Rock and roll with drums and electric guitars is the ritual musical accompaniment to young people getting high, getting buzzed, getting trashed, and hooking up. Even Allan Bloom, whose portrait is etched in the dictionary by the entry to old fuddy duddy knows the rhythm of rock is the rhythm of sexual intercourse.
Putting it inside a church is a marketing ploy as crass as they come.
posted by bukvich at 10:54 AM on April 22, 2010
Putting it inside a church is a marketing ploy as crass as they come.
posted by bukvich at 10:54 AM on April 22, 2010
Well, Knapp can't get all the credit for the song in the linked video - it's a Shawn Colvin cover - but it's still a good example of her voice and style. Knapp identified enough with the song that her "Best Of" collection was named after it.
This one (from the same show, apparently) is more "god-bothery," but also quite good (IMHO).
posted by anthom at 10:58 AM on April 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
This one (from the same show, apparently) is more "god-bothery," but also quite good (IMHO).
posted by anthom at 10:58 AM on April 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
But surely CT used to at least give a few token quotes to progressive evangelicals (Campolo, Wallis) and to mainline Prot / Catholic go-to figures. That article, though... nothing.
I'm not sure precisely what your objection is, but it's an interview with Knapp. The interviewer doesn't quote anybody.
Jim Wallis, for one, is still getting quoted in Christianity today. Here's an article from March.
posted by Jahaza at 11:03 AM on April 22, 2010
I'm not sure precisely what your objection is, but it's an interview with Knapp. The interviewer doesn't quote anybody.
Jim Wallis, for one, is still getting quoted in Christianity today. Here's an article from March.
posted by Jahaza at 11:03 AM on April 22, 2010
Quick point of order
When all you have is a sword, everything looks like a nice piece of flesh waiting to be pierced.
In Biblical metaphor and simile, the sword is simply the Word of God. Not a real physical weapon. -This also why you might read the phrase "rightly dividing the Word of God."
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 11:37 AM on April 22, 2010
When all you have is a sword, everything looks like a nice piece of flesh waiting to be pierced.
In Biblical metaphor and simile, the sword is simply the Word of God. Not a real physical weapon. -This also why you might read the phrase "rightly dividing the Word of God."
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 11:37 AM on April 22, 2010
In Biblical metaphor and simile, the sword is simply the Word of God. Not a real physical weapon. -This also why you might read the phrase "rightly dividing the Word of God."
This is the same sort of hand-wavy dismissal that rings utterly false when Palin says "Oh, when I put gun sights over the home turf of my political opponents and then told my supporters to 'reload', I was talking about reasoned political debate! Not guns, silly!" You are aware that the specific words used to convey ideas actually have meanings of their own, and metaphors choose those specific words for a reason, correct?
posted by FatherDagon at 11:51 AM on April 22, 2010 [4 favorites]
This is the same sort of hand-wavy dismissal that rings utterly false when Palin says "Oh, when I put gun sights over the home turf of my political opponents and then told my supporters to 'reload', I was talking about reasoned political debate! Not guns, silly!" You are aware that the specific words used to convey ideas actually have meanings of their own, and metaphors choose those specific words for a reason, correct?
posted by FatherDagon at 11:51 AM on April 22, 2010 [4 favorites]
Are you saying that the word of God can't pierce the flesh? Cause I'd bet that, in fact, it could.
(I kid. Of course, you are right.)
posted by oddman at 11:56 AM on April 22, 2010
(I kid. Of course, you are right.)
posted by oddman at 11:56 AM on April 22, 2010
People understand the idea of a metaphor.
The same way "People" understand that Jesus retconned the New Testament so that we don't have to follow Leveticus 18 any more?
I believe you have a bit too much faith in people. Or your take on it is that "No true Christian believe's ______________"? Which, oddly enough, is what the nutcase-bigot-militia type Christians think about tolerant folk who don't stone gays or who legalize abortion.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:01 PM on April 22, 2010
The same way "People" understand that Jesus retconned the New Testament so that we don't have to follow Leveticus 18 any more?
I believe you have a bit too much faith in people. Or your take on it is that "No true Christian believe's ______________"? Which, oddly enough, is what the nutcase-bigot-militia type Christians think about tolerant folk who don't stone gays or who legalize abortion.
posted by sebastienbailard at 12:01 PM on April 22, 2010
Good for her. I hope it opens the minds of folks who had been dogmatic about gayness. The trend of acceptance of being gay and gay relationships is, in the long run, unstoppable (I'm speaking mostly for the US here). I hope the churches can figure out how to do that acceptance sooner rather than later.
Her "revelation" reminds me of a similar revelation from some time ago: Dar Williams on coming out as heterosexual.
posted by artlung at 12:28 PM on April 22, 2010
Her "revelation" reminds me of a similar revelation from some time ago: Dar Williams on coming out as heterosexual.
posted by artlung at 12:28 PM on April 22, 2010
This is the same sort of hand-wavy dismissal that rings utterly false when Palin says "Oh, when I put gun sights over the home turf of my political opponents and then told my supporters to 'reload', I was talking about reasoned political debate! Not guns, silly!"
The difference, of course, is that "sword" as a metaphor for "the Word" has been around for a pretty long time and has a significant allegorical pedigree. I'm sure you're familiar with the most relevant Biblical quote. I appreciate that one can rightly develop a sensitivity to violent Christian discourse, but surely you can appreciate the irony of taking an old Christian metaphor more literally than that religion's adherents.
posted by Errant at 1:00 PM on April 22, 2010
The difference, of course, is that "sword" as a metaphor for "the Word" has been around for a pretty long time and has a significant allegorical pedigree. I'm sure you're familiar with the most relevant Biblical quote. I appreciate that one can rightly develop a sensitivity to violent Christian discourse, but surely you can appreciate the irony of taking an old Christian metaphor more literally than that religion's adherents.
posted by Errant at 1:00 PM on April 22, 2010
Errant, (and St. Alia) have you read the last volume of the "Left Behind" series? Some people do indeed take that metaphor quite gorily literally.
(If not, I'm not actually recommending it, but the "Word of God" bit made me nauseous. It wasn't just the slaughter; it was the gleeful tone with which it was described.)
posted by restless_nomad at 1:18 PM on April 22, 2010
(If not, I'm not actually recommending it, but the "Word of God" bit made me nauseous. It wasn't just the slaughter; it was the gleeful tone with which it was described.)
posted by restless_nomad at 1:18 PM on April 22, 2010
Well okay but Charlie Manson thought the Beatles were instructing him to murder celebrities and I don't think that's much of an argument for anything.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:21 PM on April 22, 2010
posted by shakespeherian at 1:21 PM on April 22, 2010
Shakespeherian, I think the analogy would be closer if the Beatles were actually instructing people to murder celebrities. The Left Behind series, wretched as it is, sold depressingly well.
posted by restless_nomad at 1:23 PM on April 22, 2010
posted by restless_nomad at 1:23 PM on April 22, 2010
and St. Alia) have you read the last volume of the "Left Behind" series? Some people do indeed take that metaphor quite gorily literally.
Good heavens, no. I haven't read any of it-picked up one volumn years ago and quickly put it back down again. Bad, bad BAD theology and bad writing as well.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:23 PM on April 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
Good heavens, no. I haven't read any of it-picked up one volumn years ago and quickly put it back down again. Bad, bad BAD theology and bad writing as well.
posted by St. Alia of the Bunnies at 1:23 PM on April 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
I don't really think I understand your argument. You're saying that because a fantasy series of books about the end of the world written by a couple of cynical conspiracy theorists sold lots of copies, the trope of 'Word of God' being a metaphorical sword is not well-established, or you suspect the moron quoted from YouTube thinks that Jesus will literally take a sword to fix people's lesbianism...?
posted by shakespeherian at 1:27 PM on April 22, 2010
posted by shakespeherian at 1:27 PM on April 22, 2010
No, I'm saying it's sort of silly to correct someone for jokingly literalizing the metaphor when people do it all the time without a hint of irony.
posted by restless_nomad at 1:29 PM on April 22, 2010
posted by restless_nomad at 1:29 PM on April 22, 2010
In Biblical metaphor and simile, the sword is simply the Word of God. Not a real physical weapon. -This also why you might read the phrase "rightly dividing the Word of God."
Perhaps from a Christian Revelations perspective.
But if you're trying to say that every reference to G-d's Sword in the Torah is to Lashon Hara, that's absolutely not true.
posted by zarq at 1:29 PM on April 22, 2010
Perhaps from a Christian Revelations perspective.
But if you're trying to say that every reference to G-d's Sword in the Torah is to Lashon Hara, that's absolutely not true.
posted by zarq at 1:29 PM on April 22, 2010
Okay, I'd agree with that, but I missed the part of the thread where that happened. I was responding to the bit of conversation in which St. Alia was being chastised for suggesting that the sword = Word thing is a metaphor.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:31 PM on April 22, 2010
posted by shakespeherian at 1:31 PM on April 22, 2010
I was reacting to St. Alia's original comment.
I guess I'm sort of agreeing with FatherDagon in substance, but I totally do not want to go down that rabbit hole.
posted by restless_nomad at 1:35 PM on April 22, 2010
I guess I'm sort of agreeing with FatherDagon in substance, but I totally do not want to go down that rabbit hole.
posted by restless_nomad at 1:35 PM on April 22, 2010
You are aware that the specific words used to convey ideas actually have meanings of their own, and metaphors choose those specific words for a reason, correct?
Well, in this case, it seems like the metaphorical "sword" is intended to be used by a Christian to amputate the parts of her character that are doing her harm, even if it's a painful process. It's a pretty confronting thing to say, especially when applied to something that is actually harmless like sexuality, but I don't think that when people say the word of God is a sword, they mean that you should attack people with a sword.
posted by stammer at 1:35 PM on April 22, 2010
Well, in this case, it seems like the metaphorical "sword" is intended to be used by a Christian to amputate the parts of her character that are doing her harm, even if it's a painful process. It's a pretty confronting thing to say, especially when applied to something that is actually harmless like sexuality, but I don't think that when people say the word of God is a sword, they mean that you should attack people with a sword.
posted by stammer at 1:35 PM on April 22, 2010
Some people do indeed take that metaphor quite gorily literally.
Some people do. All the evidence suggests that there are indeed people who believe that, if they just pray hard enough, God will send 42 bears to murder the enemies of the prophet. That doesn't change the fact that the Biblical sword quoted here is a common and commonly-understood metaphor. It seems quite uncharitable to accept "Word as needle and thread" as a metaphor in the first half of the quoted statement (or, if you have a problem with this part, you haven't said so), then point to the second half of the statement as evidence of a literalist-inspired call to violence.
posted by Errant at 3:26 PM on April 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
Some people do. All the evidence suggests that there are indeed people who believe that, if they just pray hard enough, God will send 42 bears to murder the enemies of the prophet. That doesn't change the fact that the Biblical sword quoted here is a common and commonly-understood metaphor. It seems quite uncharitable to accept "Word as needle and thread" as a metaphor in the first half of the quoted statement (or, if you have a problem with this part, you haven't said so), then point to the second half of the statement as evidence of a literalist-inspired call to violence.
posted by Errant at 3:26 PM on April 22, 2010 [1 favorite]
I haven't RTFA to see if it's true or not, but it's so odd that the intro to the Christianity Today article calls the ensuing interview with Knapp "rambling." It implies a disrespect that otherwise doesn't seem evident in the rest of the article. (Though maybe they mean it in the more positive "casual and meandering" connotation rather than the "wordy and incoherent" one.)
posted by Ian A.T. at 8:11 PM on April 22, 2010
posted by Ian A.T. at 8:11 PM on April 22, 2010
Jahaza -- my bad. I did a poor (i.e., nonexistent) job of mentioning that my comment was not directly referring to the Knapp interview, but to the article listed directly above it, entitled Are All Gay Judges Activists? I sincerely hope that that article's not representative of the current state of evangelical journalism.
Yes, Wallis and others do get occasional fair-and-balanced-style nods. But the echo chamber that is the political reporting at CT, that's astounding to me.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:38 AM on April 23, 2010
Yes, Wallis and others do get occasional fair-and-balanced-style nods. But the echo chamber that is the political reporting at CT, that's astounding to me.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:38 AM on April 23, 2010
Errant: God will send 42 bears to murder the enemies of the prophet
When I was a counselor at a fundie-leaning summer camp, I used to read my campers this passage and similar WTF Old Testament greatest hits for a bedtime story.
Best Bible story ever, although (to be nit-picky) it was actually two-bears-on-42-lads action... er.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:47 AM on April 23, 2010
When I was a counselor at a fundie-leaning summer camp, I used to read my campers this passage and similar WTF Old Testament greatest hits for a bedtime story.
Best Bible story ever, although (to be nit-picky) it was actually two-bears-on-42-lads action... er.
posted by tivalasvegas at 8:47 AM on April 23, 2010
Best Bible story ever, although (to be nit-picky) it was actually two-bears-on-42-lads action... er.
Aw man, I've had that wrong for a while. It was my favorite story too, but that's because 42 bears seemed like such demonstrative overkill. Now it's relegated to the "merely amusing" portion of the divine vengeance catalog.
posted by Errant at 10:31 AM on April 23, 2010
Aw man, I've had that wrong for a while. It was my favorite story too, but that's because 42 bears seemed like such demonstrative overkill. Now it's relegated to the "merely amusing" portion of the divine vengeance catalog.
posted by Errant at 10:31 AM on April 23, 2010
yeah but the story is that some kids mocked a prophet's balding scalp and then he sent bears to maul them and went merrily on his way.
I respectfully submit that "merely amusing" is entirely too dry a category for this story.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:28 PM on April 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
I respectfully submit that "merely amusing" is entirely too dry a category for this story.
posted by tivalasvegas at 2:28 PM on April 23, 2010 [1 favorite]
So, what happens when some kids spraypaint pedobear up on Herr Pope's billboard? Giant flaming cockroaches take out Malta?
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:11 PM on April 23, 2010
posted by sebastienbailard at 9:11 PM on April 23, 2010
what happens when some kids spraypaint pedobear up on Herr Pope's billboard?
Well, some entertaining commentary, if nothing else.
posted by sneebler at 7:28 PM on April 24, 2010
Well, some entertaining commentary, if nothing else.
posted by sneebler at 7:28 PM on April 24, 2010
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