withdrawl method
November 18, 2005 3:16 PM Subscribe
Newsfilter: Congress to vote tonight on immediate withdrawal of troops from Iraq. Apperantly this is some political theater based on John Murtha's call to withdrawal troops, in order to force democrats into a potentially embarrassing anti-war vote. While republicans are calling this a "democratic resolution" the actual text was written by republicans, and is very different from Murtha's original resolution.
Hopefully Harry Reid is reading:
The Democratic House members should propose a resolution saying "President Bush is doing a great job executing the war in Iraq"posted by tapeguy at 3:25 PM on November 18, 2005
I'm serious. The Republicans are now pushing a resolution in the House, forcing a vote on whether we should immediately withdraw our troops from Iraq. The Republicans of course don't want to remove the troops, they think the war is going fine, so they're trying to embarrass the Dems into voting against withdrawing the troops, and thus voting against Congressman Murtha, who so bravely yesterday called for the US to withdraw.
But that's fine. Let's join the Republicans at their same game.
The Dems should try to offer a resolution, and have the Repubs block it, proclaiming the sense of the Congress that President Bush is doing a great job - a heck of a job, one might say - executing the war in Iraq. If the Republicans kill the resolution, they look like they're afraid to endorse Bush, and if they vote for the resolution, they'll look like idiots calling this a great job when the majority of the public doesn't agree.
Other possible resolutions to offer:
- We are winning the Iraq war.
- Invading Iraq was a great idea.
- Knowing what they know now they'd vote to invade Iraq again.
You get the picture.
This is pathetically, disgustingly dirty. It's obvious that national security is nothing but a political football to Republican leadership. Shame on them.
posted by teece at 3:25 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by teece at 3:25 PM on November 18, 2005
The GOP also proposed and struck down a measure to have themselves all hung. Once again they have emerged victorious against the murderous Democrats.
posted by parallax7d at 3:26 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by parallax7d at 3:26 PM on November 18, 2005
It'd actually be an embarrassing pro-war vote at this point, right?
posted by hackly_fracture at 3:31 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by hackly_fracture at 3:31 PM on November 18, 2005
tapeguy,
heh. This would lead to 700 bills voted on and defeated, which would eventually be known as the 2005 "As If" proposals.
posted by hackly_fracture at 3:33 PM on November 18, 2005
heh. This would lead to 700 bills voted on and defeated, which would eventually be known as the 2005 "As If" proposals.
posted by hackly_fracture at 3:33 PM on November 18, 2005
Why wouldn't the democrats just refuse to vote en mass to highlight the bullshit? Call the press and just walk out.
posted by srboisvert at 3:33 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by srboisvert at 3:33 PM on November 18, 2005
I am wondering that too, srboisvert. But parliamentary procedure is really, really baroque. I don't know if that is an option. But if it is, they should do it.
posted by teece at 3:35 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by teece at 3:35 PM on November 18, 2005
tapeguy: I don't believe the democrats can schedule votes. There are all kinds of amendments and procedural rules you can use to block votes on bills, indefinitely (until the end of a congress at least, which would be two years) if you're in the majority. There's no way a democrat could get a bill to the floor in this amount of time
(which makes this vote extra lame, IMO)
posted by delmoi at 3:36 PM on November 18, 2005
(which makes this vote extra lame, IMO)
posted by delmoi at 3:36 PM on November 18, 2005
Why wouldn't the democrats just refuse to vote en mass to highlight the bullshit? Call the press and just walk out.
A political analyst said on CNN that the Democrats may all vote "present" -- not "yea" or "ney" -- to protest the resolution.
posted by ericb at 3:37 PM on November 18, 2005
A political analyst said on CNN that the Democrats may all vote "present" -- not "yea" or "ney" -- to protest the resolution.
posted by ericb at 3:37 PM on November 18, 2005
One of the highlights of the debate --
posted by ericb at 3:39 PM on November 18, 2005
"With stinging rhetoric, Democrats criticized the GOP alternative. They said House Republican leaders killed Murtha's thoughtful approach.Schmidt has since apologized to the House and asked that her statements be struck from the record.
The fiery, emotional debate climaxed when Rep. Jean Schmidt, R-Ohio, the most junior member of the House, told of a phone call she received from a Marine colonel.
'He asked me to send Congress a message — stay the course. He also asked me to send Congressman Murtha a message — that cowards cut and run, Marines never do,' Schmidt said.
Democrats booed and shouted her down — causing the House to come to a standstill.
Rep. Harold Ford, D-Tenn., charged across the chamber's center aisle screaming that it was an uncalled for personal attack. 'You guys are pathetic. Pathetic,' yelled Rep. Marty Meehan, D-Mass."
posted by ericb at 3:39 PM on November 18, 2005
it seems to me that every bit as much political hay can be made out of this by the dems as by the repubs.
upthread, there's some good ideas -- protest votes and etc. i think it was a misstep on the repub part to make the resolution so simple, as opposed to a longer counter-resolution that would be harder to parse. it's immediately clear to anyone that by proposing this, the republicans are more concerned with political football than they are with actual solutions to problems. i kinda think that their own votes on this proposal can be used against them in the midterm elections.
"195 soldiers have died since Rep. Hayworth proposed, and then voted against, this resolution. 195 soldiers that would be alive..." on voiceover...
posted by Hat Maui at 3:46 PM on November 18, 2005
upthread, there's some good ideas -- protest votes and etc. i think it was a misstep on the repub part to make the resolution so simple, as opposed to a longer counter-resolution that would be harder to parse. it's immediately clear to anyone that by proposing this, the republicans are more concerned with political football than they are with actual solutions to problems. i kinda think that their own votes on this proposal can be used against them in the midterm elections.
"195 soldiers have died since Rep. Hayworth proposed, and then voted against, this resolution. 195 soldiers that would be alive..." on voiceover...
posted by Hat Maui at 3:46 PM on November 18, 2005
Don't walk. Vote yes. Throw it right back in their face.
"The GOP insists that our only options are never ending war in Iraq, or immediate withdrawal. If that's our choice, we vote to withdraw, today -- no more soldiers dying for GOP lies. No more soldiers dying fighting anybody but the man who attacked New York City -- and who is still alive and at large today. The smoking gun here, Mr. President, is that there was, and would never be, a mushroom cloud.
The GOP insists that we state that we are always for their war, or never for that war. That statement is easy to make. If it's the wrong war forever or immediate withdrawal, there's no question as to my vote. I vote for immediate withdrawal."
Of course, being Congressional Democrats, they won't do that. "Too risky" -- as if the press would ever give you a break. They'll run away, and the talking points will be "The democrats RAN from a vote to support the war. Only cowards cut and run. They wouldn't even stand up for thier own measure"
Yeah, it's bullshit, but that's exactly what will happen.
posted by eriko at 3:46 PM on November 18, 2005
"The GOP insists that our only options are never ending war in Iraq, or immediate withdrawal. If that's our choice, we vote to withdraw, today -- no more soldiers dying for GOP lies. No more soldiers dying fighting anybody but the man who attacked New York City -- and who is still alive and at large today. The smoking gun here, Mr. President, is that there was, and would never be, a mushroom cloud.
The GOP insists that we state that we are always for their war, or never for that war. That statement is easy to make. If it's the wrong war forever or immediate withdrawal, there's no question as to my vote. I vote for immediate withdrawal."
Of course, being Congressional Democrats, they won't do that. "Too risky" -- as if the press would ever give you a break. They'll run away, and the talking points will be "The democrats RAN from a vote to support the war. Only cowards cut and run. They wouldn't even stand up for thier own measure"
Yeah, it's bullshit, but that's exactly what will happen.
posted by eriko at 3:46 PM on November 18, 2005
Apperantly this is some political theater based on John Murtha's call to withdrawal troops, in order to force democrats into a potentially embarrassing anti-war vote.
Intriguing.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 3:48 PM on November 18, 2005
Intriguing.
posted by uncanny hengeman at 3:48 PM on November 18, 2005
eriko: If it was up to me, I'd vote yes on this mesure, but only because I know it would never affect anything. There would still need to be a senate measure, and ultimately a presidential veto (which would surely happen).
Ultimately, withdrawing from Iraq right this minute would cause problems. But that doesn't mean withdraw plans can't be drawn up and executed over a specific timeframe.
posted by delmoi at 3:49 PM on November 18, 2005
Ultimately, withdrawing from Iraq right this minute would cause problems. But that doesn't mean withdraw plans can't be drawn up and executed over a specific timeframe.
posted by delmoi at 3:49 PM on November 18, 2005
Ultimately, withdrawing from Iraq right this minute would cause problems.
Oh, agreed. But the GOP will never let that measure hit the floor. The point of voting yes is to tell the American public that the GOP choice is simple -- get out now, or keep fighting and dying forever, and give a choice between the two, you'll get out now.
You'd much rather do it over time, so that maybe, just maybe, Iraq could be a stable country. But the GOP won't let that happen. They're for war in Iraq forever.
That's why you vote yes. "The GOP won't give us a reasonable choice to vote on. So, we will *gladly* vote for the least unreasonable one. Bring our soldiers home."
The real meaning behind this move is to cut the Dems off from Murtha's statement. Standing up and voting for this bogus resolution -- it's a sense-of-the-House, for gods sake, it means nothing legally -- shows that the dems aren't going to cave on this.
posted by eriko at 3:54 PM on November 18, 2005
Oh, agreed. But the GOP will never let that measure hit the floor. The point of voting yes is to tell the American public that the GOP choice is simple -- get out now, or keep fighting and dying forever, and give a choice between the two, you'll get out now.
You'd much rather do it over time, so that maybe, just maybe, Iraq could be a stable country. But the GOP won't let that happen. They're for war in Iraq forever.
That's why you vote yes. "The GOP won't give us a reasonable choice to vote on. So, we will *gladly* vote for the least unreasonable one. Bring our soldiers home."
The real meaning behind this move is to cut the Dems off from Murtha's statement. Standing up and voting for this bogus resolution -- it's a sense-of-the-House, for gods sake, it means nothing legally -- shows that the dems aren't going to cave on this.
posted by eriko at 3:54 PM on November 18, 2005
The GOP also proposed and struck down a measure to have themselves all hung
So the GOP are all satisfied with the sizes of their cocks? Why are we then engaged in these pissing matches all the time?
posted by WolfDaddy at 3:54 PM on November 18, 2005
So the GOP are all satisfied with the sizes of their cocks? Why are we then engaged in these pissing matches all the time?
posted by WolfDaddy at 3:54 PM on November 18, 2005
Charlie: They said you was hung!
Sheriff Bart: And they was right!
posted by kirkaracha at 4:03 PM on November 18, 2005
Sheriff Bart: And they was right!
posted by kirkaracha at 4:03 PM on November 18, 2005
This is shameless. The GOP knows no bounds. They are truly out of control.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 4:06 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 4:06 PM on November 18, 2005
Jean Schmidt is probably the most vile person to ever serve in the U.S. Congress. She at least looks the part.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 4:12 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by Optimus Chyme at 4:12 PM on November 18, 2005
Jean Schmidt is probably the most vile person to ever serve in the U.S. Congress. She at least looks the part.
Worse then Santorum? Then DeLay? then Thurmond during his race baiting days, and so on?
Schmidt is an idiot, but, hardly the worst congressperson evar.
posted by delmoi at 4:16 PM on November 18, 2005
Worse then Santorum? Then DeLay? then Thurmond during his race baiting days, and so on?
Schmidt is an idiot, but, hardly the worst congressperson evar.
posted by delmoi at 4:16 PM on November 18, 2005
The Republicans are like rich children, acting out all over again.
Look Daddy, my turd is precious!
posted by The Jesse Helms at 4:16 PM on November 18, 2005
Look Daddy, my turd is precious!
posted by The Jesse Helms at 4:16 PM on November 18, 2005
Ha Ha!
I can't believe that things are going so well politically for the Dems these days.
Given the dark mood last Nov., who would have dreamed that we'd be at this point right now?
The Republicans have a long, long way to drop from here; the Dems have successfully shifted the national debate back to the Iraq war and the lies leading up to it.
Go Blue!
posted by Cycloptichorn at 4:27 PM on November 18, 2005
I can't believe that things are going so well politically for the Dems these days.
Given the dark mood last Nov., who would have dreamed that we'd be at this point right now?
The Republicans have a long, long way to drop from here; the Dems have successfully shifted the national debate back to the Iraq war and the lies leading up to it.
Go Blue!
posted by Cycloptichorn at 4:27 PM on November 18, 2005
Could someone post a picture of the alien baby from Alien 4: Resurrection next to the picture of Jean Schmidt?
posted by FYKshun at 4:53 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by FYKshun at 4:53 PM on November 18, 2005
Schmidt is an idiot, but, hardly the worst congressperson evar.
posted by delmoi at 4:16 PM PST on November 18
I didn't say worst; I said most vile.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 4:54 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by delmoi at 4:16 PM PST on November 18
I didn't say worst; I said most vile.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 4:54 PM on November 18, 2005
Sigh. According to Kos, Peolsi has instructed (but not requiring) the dems to vote no.
Sigh. Yet another talking point for the GOP.
Meanwhile, according to Talking Points Memo, the GOP is calling for a ethics investigation on Jim Murtha's campaign office.
So, Democrats wimp out, Rethugs start smearing another decorated veteran. It's NOT LIKE WE'VE SEEN THIS PLAY BEFORE.
God, why are the democrats such fucking idiots?
posted by eriko at 5:10 PM on November 18, 2005
Sigh. Yet another talking point for the GOP.
Meanwhile, according to Talking Points Memo, the GOP is calling for a ethics investigation on Jim Murtha's campaign office.
So, Democrats wimp out, Rethugs start smearing another decorated veteran. It's NOT LIKE WE'VE SEEN THIS PLAY BEFORE.
God, why are the democrats such fucking idiots?
posted by eriko at 5:10 PM on November 18, 2005
Given the dark mood last Nov., who would have dreamed that we'd be at this point right now?
Lets not overstate the case. We still lost CAFTA, the bankruptcy bill, and the Roberts nomination, and it, while its still in flux, it appears likely that we'll lose the Alito nomination. Plus the hundreds of other important changes in policy that the media doesn't notice. Its fun to point and laugh while your opponents deal with the reality of governing, but its better to laughed at while doing the governing yourself.
posted by gsteff at 5:11 PM on November 18, 2005
Lets not overstate the case. We still lost CAFTA, the bankruptcy bill, and the Roberts nomination, and it, while its still in flux, it appears likely that we'll lose the Alito nomination. Plus the hundreds of other important changes in policy that the media doesn't notice. Its fun to point and laugh while your opponents deal with the reality of governing, but its better to laughed at while doing the governing yourself.
posted by gsteff at 5:11 PM on November 18, 2005
Now the media is reporting that the White House is making threats against Rep. Murtha, saying there's an ethical investigation under way. Sickening.
posted by mmahaffie at 5:21 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mmahaffie at 5:21 PM on November 18, 2005
Kucinich just kicked their booties! Yeah! (Oh how I wish he were president)
posted by leapingsheep at 5:28 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by leapingsheep at 5:28 PM on November 18, 2005
I was trying to watch this trainwreck on CSpan, and a Republican said, "To my friends on the other side of the aisle - do not let your hatred of the President get in the way of loving your Country."
I began throwing up violently.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 5:48 PM on November 18, 2005
I began throwing up violently.
posted by The Jesse Helms at 5:48 PM on November 18, 2005
gsteff is right. Remember when Clinton was getting the serious GOP beat-down during Whitewater and Lewinski? He was like some un-dead thing zombie robot thing. it was amazing remember?
The GOP tosses the Molotov cocktail at him - and walks right through the flames. They shot nine rounds into his chest - he still kept coming. They then in futility threw the empty gun at him and not surprisingly he still kept coming.
The Republicans learned from him. They started off with the biggest lie they could during the the 2000 election and led the democrats expend their biggest artillery on to counter it. They pretended like it was nothing. By the time we get to the war and the lies to get us there... they got a zombie machine momentum all their own and the democrats have nothing left.
posted by tkchrist at 5:51 PM on November 18, 2005
The GOP tosses the Molotov cocktail at him - and walks right through the flames. They shot nine rounds into his chest - he still kept coming. They then in futility threw the empty gun at him and not surprisingly he still kept coming.
The Republicans learned from him. They started off with the biggest lie they could during the the 2000 election and led the democrats expend their biggest artillery on to counter it. They pretended like it was nothing. By the time we get to the war and the lies to get us there... they got a zombie machine momentum all their own and the democrats have nothing left.
posted by tkchrist at 5:51 PM on November 18, 2005
Earlier this evening, I caught Mort Kondracke on FOX News talking about this turn of events and saying that only 19% of Americans favor an immediate withdrawal. However, according to September CNN poll, " Sixty-three percent said they wanted to see some or all U.S. troops withdrawn from that country." I guess it's possible that the disparity hinges on the word "immediate," but it's far more likely that Kondracke is just full of shit.
In any case, I think it's completely fucked up that somewhere between a third and two thirds (I think the percentage has increased pretty dramatically over the last two years) of the country has serious misgivings about the Iraq war and we're only just now starting to see something like opposition to it from some of our elected representatives.
posted by Clay201 at 6:06 PM on November 18, 2005
In any case, I think it's completely fucked up that somewhere between a third and two thirds (I think the percentage has increased pretty dramatically over the last two years) of the country has serious misgivings about the Iraq war and we're only just now starting to see something like opposition to it from some of our elected representatives.
posted by Clay201 at 6:06 PM on November 18, 2005
When, exactly, is this vote supposed to come in?
posted by interrobang at 6:08 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by interrobang at 6:08 PM on November 18, 2005
tkchrist,
Maybe you missed the fact the the minority party has effectively controlled the agenda since Bush tried to demolish Social Security.
They've effectively controlled the Iraq War debate since Reid invoked Rule 22.
I'm not always happy with their behavior, and lack of media savvy, but damn...I've got to give credit where credit is due. They've, lately, been beating the pulp out of Cheney and his Boy Blunder.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:08 PM on November 18, 2005
Maybe you missed the fact the the minority party has effectively controlled the agenda since Bush tried to demolish Social Security.
They've effectively controlled the Iraq War debate since Reid invoked Rule 22.
I'm not always happy with their behavior, and lack of media savvy, but damn...I've got to give credit where credit is due. They've, lately, been beating the pulp out of Cheney and his Boy Blunder.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:08 PM on November 18, 2005
Does anyone know how many Democrats and Republicans would support Murtha's original resolution?
How about the new one?
posted by notmtwain at 6:10 PM on November 18, 2005
How about the new one?
posted by notmtwain at 6:10 PM on November 18, 2005
We should be our of Iraq by 2009. And the world will be a much better place for our efforts. Lets just hope we can defang Iran without to many casualties. And the Syria just collapses.
posted by ParisParamus at 6:14 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 6:14 PM on November 18, 2005
Ralph Nader's call for the Democrats to stake out a platform and support the Murtha resolution.
posted by notmtwain at 6:14 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by notmtwain at 6:14 PM on November 18, 2005
Why does almost every single Republican speaking on the floor, feel the need to either wave the bloody shirt of one of our dead soldiers, or invoke Al Jazeera?
Is that all they've got?
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:15 PM on November 18, 2005
(that Syria; not the)
posted by ParisParamus at 6:15 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 6:15 PM on November 18, 2005
And the world will be a much better place for our efforts.
Your mountain of evidence is overwhelming. Are you always this convincing?
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:16 PM on November 18, 2005
Your mountain of evidence is overwhelming. Are you always this convincing?
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:16 PM on November 18, 2005
I guess we're getting the vote...right now.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:20 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:20 PM on November 18, 2005
We should be our of Iraq by 2009. And the world will be a much better place for our efforts. Lets just hope we can defang Iran without to many casualties. And the Syria just collapses.
posted by ParisParamus at 6:14 PM PST on November 18
Don't make me copy and paste your infamous quote, Paris.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 6:22 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 6:14 PM PST on November 18
Don't make me copy and paste your infamous quote, Paris.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 6:22 PM on November 18, 2005
This really sounds like a fraternity prank that no one had the nerve (or the cojones) to stop, once the ball started rolling.
"Hell, they want to withdraw, then we should make them vote on it!"
"Yeah!"
"And we should make it so they can either withdraw unilaterally, or nothing else!"
"Yeah!"
"And we should make them vote on whether or not they wax their pubes!"
"Yeah!"
posted by yhbc at 6:23 PM on November 18, 2005
"Hell, they want to withdraw, then we should make them vote on it!"
"Yeah!"
"And we should make it so they can either withdraw unilaterally, or nothing else!"
"Yeah!"
"And we should make them vote on whether or not they wax their pubes!"
"Yeah!"
posted by yhbc at 6:23 PM on November 18, 2005
They've, lately, been beating the pulp out of Cheney and his Boy Blunder.
Though I'd LIKE to concur - I strongly disagree that most of this was the result of any serious intentional Democratic Party strategy (With the possible exception of Virginia's gubernatorial race.)
Chimpy has been beating himself. It was bound to happen. The entire Iraq war was a fools errand from the get go. Then there was Harriet Meiers (sp?), etc.
What Democrats HAVE learned is to get out of the way.
I do hope they actually vote for the withdrawal of troops. Then they are on their way to having a principled stand again.
posted by tkchrist at 6:30 PM on November 18, 2005
Though I'd LIKE to concur - I strongly disagree that most of this was the result of any serious intentional Democratic Party strategy (With the possible exception of Virginia's gubernatorial race.)
Chimpy has been beating himself. It was bound to happen. The entire Iraq war was a fools errand from the get go. Then there was Harriet Meiers (sp?), etc.
What Democrats HAVE learned is to get out of the way.
I do hope they actually vote for the withdrawal of troops. Then they are on their way to having a principled stand again.
posted by tkchrist at 6:30 PM on November 18, 2005
just this morning in another thread I was politely pointing out how Republicans in this sad, blood-stained autumn are really desperate fucks -- burdened with a neverending war that costs a billion dollars a month, a higher and higher body count and a better, more organized insurgency to fight, they're basically reduced to throwing tantrums.
their President after all, unlike Congressional Republicans, won't have to run again. terror alerts don't work anymore, the people -- numbed by all those TERRAR! TERRAR! Homeland Security skits -- aren't simply as scared as they once were. yes, another attack would scare the electorate all over again, scare them shitless, just like four years ago, get them as willing to write blank checks to the GOp as they once were, but the economy would tank for real and that's never good for the Party who's running all three branches of government at the same time.
so they really don't know what to do, what to hope for.
they're so fucking desperate to blame somebody else for this obscene mess that they're reaching Monty Python levels of comedic genius -- only, theirs is involuntary. silly walks indeed. if it weren't for all those people being slaughtered on a daily basis, it'd be really funny.
posted by matteo at 6:32 PM on November 18, 2005
their President after all, unlike Congressional Republicans, won't have to run again. terror alerts don't work anymore, the people -- numbed by all those TERRAR! TERRAR! Homeland Security skits -- aren't simply as scared as they once were. yes, another attack would scare the electorate all over again, scare them shitless, just like four years ago, get them as willing to write blank checks to the GOp as they once were, but the economy would tank for real and that's never good for the Party who's running all three branches of government at the same time.
so they really don't know what to do, what to hope for.
they're so fucking desperate to blame somebody else for this obscene mess that they're reaching Monty Python levels of comedic genius -- only, theirs is involuntary. silly walks indeed. if it weren't for all those people being slaughtered on a daily basis, it'd be really funny.
posted by matteo at 6:32 PM on November 18, 2005
yhbc,
Thanks for that...it's been a heated evening, and that was funny.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:34 PM on November 18, 2005
Thanks for that...it's been a heated evening, and that was funny.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:34 PM on November 18, 2005
Every time I think I can't lose more respect for the Republican party, they prove me wrong.
Could somebody please direct me towards a party for fiscal conservatives who aren't batshit insane?
posted by I Love Tacos at 6:35 PM on November 18, 2005
Could somebody please direct me towards a party for fiscal conservatives who aren't batshit insane?
posted by I Love Tacos at 6:35 PM on November 18, 2005
Why does almost every single Republican speaking on the floor, feel the need to either wave the bloody shirt of one of our dead soldiers, or invoke Al Jazeera?
Is that all they've got?
Well. Chappaquiddick is too hard to spell.
And then communism is kind of cute and retro. Fear of Ritualistic satanic abuse got dispelled with the Osbournes and MTV. Will and Grace makes homosexuality fun and popular. And Osama is is still conspicuously and embarrassingly at large...
So. Yeah. It's pretty much all they got.
posted by tkchrist at 6:36 PM on November 18, 2005
Is that all they've got?
Well. Chappaquiddick is too hard to spell.
And then communism is kind of cute and retro. Fear of Ritualistic satanic abuse got dispelled with the Osbournes and MTV. Will and Grace makes homosexuality fun and popular. And Osama is is still conspicuously and embarrassingly at large...
So. Yeah. It's pretty much all they got.
posted by tkchrist at 6:36 PM on November 18, 2005
matteo,
Dead on.
Even Rumsfeld, the chief architect of this debacle, is starting to back out the door. This is after he attempted to turn in his resignation to Bush, where it was refused...twice.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:46 PM on November 18, 2005
Dead on.
Even Rumsfeld, the chief architect of this debacle, is starting to back out the door. This is after he attempted to turn in his resignation to Bush, where it was refused...twice.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:46 PM on November 18, 2005
What is this? A vote on whether to vote? I'm confused.
posted by leapingsheep at 6:47 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by leapingsheep at 6:47 PM on November 18, 2005
leaping,
I was mistaken, it's a vote on whether to vote. But it passed, and NOW we're getting a vote.
But via Kos,
"The vote on the rule to bring the Fake Hunter Resolution to the floor for a vote passed 205-202, but every Democratic representative voted against the rule and 5 Republicans joined the Democrats."
So, so far, politically, it has blown up in the GOP's face.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:53 PM on November 18, 2005
I was mistaken, it's a vote on whether to vote. But it passed, and NOW we're getting a vote.
But via Kos,
"The vote on the rule to bring the Fake Hunter Resolution to the floor for a vote passed 205-202, but every Democratic representative voted against the rule and 5 Republicans joined the Democrats."
So, so far, politically, it has blown up in the GOP's face.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:53 PM on November 18, 2005
This is the now the most important vote of this session, sadly. And it is nothing but political theater. How people vote for this resolution will be used in nearly every single political race next year. They're taking a page from all the points they scored on kerry for his 'i voted for it before i voted against it' blunder. Expect the republicansto use this against every single democrat that votes 'no' and has shown at least the slightest support of the war. It's really just a shame again that sad political theater will once again trump showing actual progress and results from washington.
posted by my sock puppet account at 6:53 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by my sock puppet account at 6:53 PM on November 18, 2005
Damn, overtime strong-armed it into 210/202.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:54 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 6:54 PM on November 18, 2005
What an awful presidency. I wish I had more to say than that, the rest of you are obviously speaking with more regard and information than I have.
posted by Dean Keaton at 6:56 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by Dean Keaton at 6:56 PM on November 18, 2005
Another hour of smashing, fiery debate!
posted by leapingsheep at 6:59 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by leapingsheep at 6:59 PM on November 18, 2005
Any C-span streams online? This feels very spotty and unreliable.
posted by anthill at 7:01 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by anthill at 7:01 PM on November 18, 2005
This is extremely sad.
posted by I Love Tacos at 7:02 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by I Love Tacos at 7:02 PM on November 18, 2005
It's become apparent to me, tonight, that I am a political nerd.
I'm getting drunk, watching CSPAN, cheering at the TV...and applauding speakers...like they are scoring touchdowns.
All by myself. (My lady is out w/ friends)
And it's great.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:03 PM on November 18, 2005
I'm getting drunk, watching CSPAN, cheering at the TV...and applauding speakers...like they are scoring touchdowns.
All by myself. (My lady is out w/ friends)
And it's great.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:03 PM on November 18, 2005
Tacos,
ARE YOU KIDDING?? We needed this debate YEARS ago...it's LOOOOOOONG overdue and I say better late than never. Sure, it's a political ploy by the GOP, but damn if it isn't drawing together some of the most frayed ends of our current state of affairs.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:06 PM on November 18, 2005
ARE YOU KIDDING?? We needed this debate YEARS ago...it's LOOOOOOONG overdue and I say better late than never. Sure, it's a political ploy by the GOP, but damn if it isn't drawing together some of the most frayed ends of our current state of affairs.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:06 PM on November 18, 2005
Spoken like a true curmudgeon. What's Curt Weldon's agenda? He speaks like a conciliator. Now that the smearing has backfired, it's all smiles...
(Got C-Span working, thanks)
posted by anthill at 7:07 PM on November 18, 2005
(Got C-Span working, thanks)
posted by anthill at 7:07 PM on November 18, 2005
*hopes for Kucinich to speak again for a long, long time*
posted by leapingsheep at 7:09 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by leapingsheep at 7:09 PM on November 18, 2005
Tacos,
ARE YOU KIDDING??
No, I'm not. I can't remember a time that I was more ashamed of the Republican party.
And I can remember the Lewinsky "scandal".
posted by I Love Tacos at 7:12 PM on November 18, 2005
ARE YOU KIDDING??
No, I'm not. I can't remember a time that I was more ashamed of the Republican party.
And I can remember the Lewinsky "scandal".
posted by I Love Tacos at 7:12 PM on November 18, 2005
anthill,
Spoken like a true curmudgeon.
Is that sarcasm? I'm too many sheets to the wind. :)
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:13 PM on November 18, 2005
Spoken like a true curmudgeon.
Is that sarcasm? I'm too many sheets to the wind. :)
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:13 PM on November 18, 2005
I need a damned taco. And a bottle of tequila.
posted by I Love Tacos at 7:13 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by I Love Tacos at 7:13 PM on November 18, 2005
My college town had a taco delivery service. You would be pleased.
posted by leapingsheep at 7:15 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by leapingsheep at 7:15 PM on November 18, 2005
Tacos,
No, I'm not. I can't remember a time that I was more ashamed of the Republican party.
Don't despair, watch CSPAN, look what they've accomplished. This is great rousing debate. Whether it'll carry through the news cycle until Monday is another story.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:22 PM on November 18, 2005
No, I'm not. I can't remember a time that I was more ashamed of the Republican party.
Don't despair, watch CSPAN, look what they've accomplished. This is great rousing debate. Whether it'll carry through the news cycle until Monday is another story.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:22 PM on November 18, 2005
A-FUCKING-MEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:23 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:23 PM on November 18, 2005
Bill Young says vote no.
What more do you people want?
posted by Coda at 7:27 PM on November 18, 2005
What more do you people want?
posted by Coda at 7:27 PM on November 18, 2005
I love the difference in speaking styles between Murtha and Bill Young. Bill Young speaks like an elementary school teacher.
posted by anthill at 7:28 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by anthill at 7:28 PM on November 18, 2005
"We got committed when we voted to send troops to Iraq." Heh heh. If only.
posted by leapingsheep at 7:28 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by leapingsheep at 7:28 PM on November 18, 2005
My tax dollars are paying for this government, Democrat and Republican alike.
I want a refund.
posted by fet at 7:28 PM on November 18, 2005
I want a refund.
posted by fet at 7:28 PM on November 18, 2005
Or surrender, or negotiate, or retreat...
Take that, binary opposition!
posted by Coda at 7:29 PM on November 18, 2005
Take that, binary opposition!
posted by Coda at 7:29 PM on November 18, 2005
Bill Young, you're guilty of a thread derail. Gimme 10 pushups.
posted by Coda at 7:30 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by Coda at 7:30 PM on November 18, 2005
Young: "Everyone in Iraq are pure and simple terrorists. And it's a good thing us 296 voted to support our president and fight Terror and Saddam Hussein so that the American people can sleep soundly at night.
I like that slip about wounded soldiers - "Why would I bribe an wounded American soldier? He's already done everything he can for me!"
and in closing, terrorism, prevail, support, vote no, amen."
posted by anthill at 7:34 PM on November 18, 2005
I like that slip about wounded soldiers - "Why would I bribe an wounded American soldier? He's already done everything he can for me!"
and in closing, terrorism, prevail, support, vote no, amen."
posted by anthill at 7:34 PM on November 18, 2005
Bob Simmons wants another Vietnam, but this time with FEELING!
posted by Coda at 7:38 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by Coda at 7:38 PM on November 18, 2005
Murtha comes back with another letter from someone actually in the war.
posted by Coda at 7:39 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by Coda at 7:39 PM on November 18, 2005
OMG I can't believe they're getting a standing ovation for comparing this debate to when the US 'cut and run' in Vietnam...
Look at Vietnam today. It's terrible! They're communist, and a threat to America! :)
What a bunch of hacks.
Murtha's doing the right thing in the face of such hackery. Reading letters from wounded soldiers.
posted by anthill at 7:40 PM on November 18, 2005
Look at Vietnam today. It's terrible! They're communist, and a threat to America! :)
What a bunch of hacks.
Murtha's doing the right thing in the face of such hackery. Reading letters from wounded soldiers.
posted by anthill at 7:40 PM on November 18, 2005
Rep. BUyer is telling about having hallucinations ....
posted by mmahaffie at 7:42 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mmahaffie at 7:42 PM on November 18, 2005
The classical approach to speech pretty much died once Jesse Jackson learned litotes, didn't it?
posted by fet at 7:42 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by fet at 7:42 PM on November 18, 2005
Stever Buyer says dead WWII soldiers tell him to tell you to vote no.
posted by Coda at 7:42 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by Coda at 7:42 PM on November 18, 2005
They want to "envelope our weakness?" Who elected this clown?
posted by mmahaffie at 7:43 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mmahaffie at 7:43 PM on November 18, 2005
Steve Buyer: We're all one, so let's not betray ourselves. "Can you hang with us, Congress?" say soldiers.
posted by Coda at 7:44 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by Coda at 7:44 PM on November 18, 2005
Funky,
Ok, I'll see the GOP's call for an ethics investigation into Murtha, and I'll raise them a flipped Michael Scanlon.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:45 PM on November 18, 2005
Ok, I'll see the GOP's call for an ethics investigation into Murtha, and I'll raise them a flipped Michael Scanlon.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:45 PM on November 18, 2005
Wow, Buyer sounds more like a WWI general. The French err... American troops will prevail because of their "martial spirit". Send 'em up into the machineguns!
posted by anthill at 7:45 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by anthill at 7:45 PM on November 18, 2005
I have never, EVER seen the US House like this... unbelievable.
posted by fet at 7:45 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by fet at 7:45 PM on November 18, 2005
Tom Lantos looks like Count Chocula. Talks like him too.
And Congress is a racial epithet away from a riot right now.
posted by Coda at 7:46 PM on November 18, 2005
And Congress is a racial epithet away from a riot right now.
posted by Coda at 7:46 PM on November 18, 2005
ed,
Buyer's "ears of my heart" was my favorite part. I peed a little.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:47 PM on November 18, 2005
Buyer's "ears of my heart" was my favorite part. I peed a little.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:47 PM on November 18, 2005
(Out of curiosity, does anyone think Murtha reading these letters is effective or not? Does this not qualify as an appeal to emotion?)
posted by fet at 7:49 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by fet at 7:49 PM on November 18, 2005
Gil Scott Heron was wrong
The revolution will be televised.
posted by Bighappyfunhouse at 7:49 PM on November 18, 2005
The revolution will be televised.
posted by Bighappyfunhouse at 7:49 PM on November 18, 2005
Fet, it is an effective way of disproving the GOP's only argument, which is that supporting the troops means keeping them in Iraq.
posted by leapingsheep at 7:50 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by leapingsheep at 7:50 PM on November 18, 2005
Geoff Davis represents his peeps: the military. "Your shouting sends echos to our enemies..."
posted by Coda at 7:50 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by Coda at 7:50 PM on November 18, 2005
Hahaha... "your shouting and your rhetoric sends comfort to the ears of our enemies."
Man. Are these people adults?
posted by fet at 7:50 PM on November 18, 2005
Man. Are these people adults?
posted by fet at 7:50 PM on November 18, 2005
Rep. J.D. Hayworth, straight from Central Casting....
(seriously. Isn't that Leon Rippy up there?)
posted by kalimac at 7:52 PM on November 18, 2005
(seriously. Isn't that Leon Rippy up there?)
posted by kalimac at 7:52 PM on November 18, 2005
All due respoct to the soldiers. But who should make polic decisions? The soldiers. No. The Congress.
posted by mmahaffie at 7:52 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mmahaffie at 7:52 PM on November 18, 2005
fet,
Does this not qualify as an appeal to emotion?
I think it borders on it, but he is a 25 yr veteran of the Marines. So maybe he gets a little slack? I don't know.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:54 PM on November 18, 2005
Does this not qualify as an appeal to emotion?
I think it borders on it, but he is a 25 yr veteran of the Marines. So maybe he gets a little slack? I don't know.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:54 PM on November 18, 2005
A bunch of campaign speeches. No one will change his position. Sigh.
posted by leapingsheep at 7:55 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by leapingsheep at 7:55 PM on November 18, 2005
Murtha again with, you know, actual people in his district.
Talking about billing a disabled soldier.
posted by kalimac at 7:55 PM on November 18, 2005
Talking about billing a disabled soldier.
posted by kalimac at 7:55 PM on November 18, 2005
Murtha: The gentleman from California has the right to close...it's his resolution.
Says it all right there.
posted by edverb at 7:55 PM on November 18, 2005
Says it all right there.
posted by edverb at 7:55 PM on November 18, 2005
kalimac: But, but... THE EARS OF STEVE BUYER'S HEART DO NOT LIE!
posted by Coda at 7:55 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by Coda at 7:55 PM on November 18, 2005
I don't think it's going to change any GOP votes, and I don't think Murtha does either, but maybe he just needs to vent.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:56 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 7:56 PM on November 18, 2005
curmudgeon: they're all politicians, so it's not like we could expect any sort of useful, reasoned debate. It's just depressing.
posted by fet at 7:56 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by fet at 7:56 PM on November 18, 2005
damned hearts with ears. Always gettin in the way, dadgummit.
(thank you for the laugh of the night!)
posted by kalimac at 7:57 PM on November 18, 2005
(thank you for the laugh of the night!)
posted by kalimac at 7:57 PM on November 18, 2005
Our tax dollars at work.
posted by whozyerdaddy at 7:58 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by whozyerdaddy at 7:58 PM on November 18, 2005
As to Murtha's friendly fire thing:
(b) Individuals wounded or killed as a result of "friendly fire" in the "heat of battle" will be awarded the Purple Heart as long as the "friendly" projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment.
So, yeah.
posted by fet at 7:58 PM on November 18, 2005
(b) Individuals wounded or killed as a result of "friendly fire" in the "heat of battle" will be awarded the Purple Heart as long as the "friendly" projectile or agent was released with the full intent of inflicting damage or destroying enemy troops or equipment.
So, yeah.
posted by fet at 7:58 PM on November 18, 2005
And now, Hunter pulls, out of his...., who? Who? Someone with lots of medals. a real hero..
Yeah? And?
posted by mmahaffie at 7:59 PM on November 18, 2005
Yeah? And?
posted by mmahaffie at 7:59 PM on November 18, 2005
Dueling veterans. Dueling I'm more patriotic than you. dueling I suffered more for my country.
posted by mmahaffie at 7:59 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mmahaffie at 7:59 PM on November 18, 2005
"Our guys have more medals than yoooooooooooouuuur guys, neener neener neener"
posted by leapingsheep at 8:00 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by leapingsheep at 8:00 PM on November 18, 2005
Sam Johnson: Withdrawl could hurt our misson.
Oh snap.
posted by Coda at 8:00 PM on November 18, 2005
Oh snap.
posted by Coda at 8:00 PM on November 18, 2005
Vietnam was probably the biggest wound this country ever suffered, psychically, outside of the Civil War. It's not surprising that all military actions since reference back to it.
posted by fet at 8:01 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by fet at 8:01 PM on November 18, 2005
Yo, Sam, maybe you might've giving them armor in the first place? You think that might've supported them?
The words he says, they are in English, but they don't make sense....
posted by kalimac at 8:01 PM on November 18, 2005
The words he says, they are in English, but they don't make sense....
posted by kalimac at 8:01 PM on November 18, 2005
we "must stand behind our men and women in uniform..." yeah well, well behind. Back here in DC. You gwan ahead and fight.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:01 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mmahaffie at 8:01 PM on November 18, 2005
Is Buyer up for reelection in 2006?
Every House member is up every two years. So yes.
posted by edverb at 8:02 PM on November 18, 2005
Every House member is up every two years. So yes.
posted by edverb at 8:02 PM on November 18, 2005
Oh NOES!!! Purple Fingers!!!
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:02 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:02 PM on November 18, 2005
Why do the republicans keep referring to our pulling out of Vietnam as a bad thing? That fucking war would still be going on now if these idiots were in charge back then.
posted by my sock puppet account at 8:03 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by my sock puppet account at 8:03 PM on November 18, 2005
yeah, that Iraq election. But that ended so well! Look, they're...already...independent. Huh.
posted by kalimac at 8:03 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by kalimac at 8:03 PM on November 18, 2005
They all keep bringing up Vietnam... This whole thing is so confusing to me! Vietnam's not looking so bad today... the worst thing going on is Gary Glitter on the run for keeping an underage girl.
posted by anthill at 8:03 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by anthill at 8:03 PM on November 18, 2005
Everything the Repubs are saying is propped up by a false dichotomy. Somebody's got to kick it away.
posted by George_Spiggott at 8:04 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by George_Spiggott at 8:04 PM on November 18, 2005
Wow. Rep. Johnson says we're doing great in Iraq! What was I worried about. I can go to bed now.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:04 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mmahaffie at 8:04 PM on November 18, 2005
I thought bin Laden was the head of Al Quaeda? Oh yeah, we forgot about him....
posted by afx114 at 8:05 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by afx114 at 8:05 PM on November 18, 2005
Why is he talking about al quida? If we get out of Iraq, AQ will be on mian street? Wtf
posted by mmahaffie at 8:06 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mmahaffie at 8:06 PM on November 18, 2005
afx114 - Bin Laden is against FREEEEEEEEEDOM. So we ignore him - didn't you remember?
posted by kalimac at 8:06 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by kalimac at 8:06 PM on November 18, 2005
yes. Yes he did. I don't think I've heard "peacenik" since I was eight.
posted by kalimac at 8:07 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by kalimac at 8:07 PM on November 18, 2005
whozyerdaddy ,
Our tax dollars at work.
Oh come on. I'd be a registered nihilist if I cared enough to send in the form, and even I find this encouraging.
For my tax dollar, I think hot air is a better value than the 5 years of smoke that's been blown up our collective asses.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:07 PM on November 18, 2005
Our tax dollars at work.
Oh come on. I'd be a registered nihilist if I cared enough to send in the form, and even I find this encouraging.
For my tax dollar, I think hot air is a better value than the 5 years of smoke that's been blown up our collective asses.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:07 PM on November 18, 2005
Ok...the vote!!
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:08 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:08 PM on November 18, 2005
One Dem has voted FOR immediate withdrawl! Balls. I like that.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:09 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mmahaffie at 8:09 PM on November 18, 2005
dammit, I can't see it on the streamed screen.
also, "Hey Ma, I'm a peacenik!" is my new phrase of choice.
posted by kalimac at 8:11 PM on November 18, 2005
also, "Hey Ma, I'm a peacenik!" is my new phrase of choice.
posted by kalimac at 8:11 PM on November 18, 2005
I am shocked... shocked that this is not going to pass.
posted by fet at 8:11 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by fet at 8:11 PM on November 18, 2005
Pathetic, the Democrats should have just voted Present, a refusal to participate in the theatrics would have been a better move.
I wish they wouldn't take calls from people durring these votes, it just illustrates ignorance.
posted by splatta at 8:11 PM on November 18, 2005
I wish they wouldn't take calls from people durring these votes, it just illustrates ignorance.
posted by splatta at 8:11 PM on November 18, 2005
I wish they wouldn't take calls from people durring these votes, it just illustrates ignorance.
Mute is your friend.
posted by Inkoate at 8:12 PM on November 18, 2005
Why has CSpan turned into a bad radio call in show?
posted by my sock puppet account at 8:12 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by my sock puppet account at 8:12 PM on November 18, 2005
This has been interesing. If politics actually does give you a chance to speak from your heart sometimes, as Murtha appears to have been doing, it may be worth my while some day.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:14 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mmahaffie at 8:14 PM on November 18, 2005
mmahaffie - I think that's the only reason an old roommate is going into politics. There's still that spark of hope...
(granted, he's looking at a more local level. But it's nice, to see people actually talking about what they believe.)
posted by kalimac at 8:16 PM on November 18, 2005
(granted, he's looking at a more local level. But it's nice, to see people actually talking about what they believe.)
posted by kalimac at 8:16 PM on November 18, 2005
It might be best to think of the people who would call into CSPAN as freaks no matter which side of the debate they're on.
posted by splatta at 8:16 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by splatta at 8:16 PM on November 18, 2005
...Pathetic, the Democrats should have just voted Present...
Yeah. I was a little unclear on that myself. Are there only five Democrats who know the House Rules, or what?
posted by Vetinari at 8:17 PM on November 18, 2005
Yeah. I was a little unclear on that myself. Are there only five Democrats who know the House Rules, or what?
posted by Vetinari at 8:17 PM on November 18, 2005
Jesus, they've got some freaks calling in.
and I can't get through...busy, busy, busy. These people must get all that practice with QVC.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:18 PM on November 18, 2005
and I can't get through...busy, busy, busy. These people must get all that practice with QVC.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:18 PM on November 18, 2005
Vetinari - dude, you might not be far off.
I forget, sometimes, how stupid the general public is (referring to the callers).
posted by kalimac at 8:19 PM on November 18, 2005
I forget, sometimes, how stupid the general public is (referring to the callers).
posted by kalimac at 8:19 PM on November 18, 2005
Johnson implied that American troops would literally be left in Iraq with no way to get home.
Texas, sincerely--WTF?
Murtha wins.
posted by bardic at 8:19 PM on November 18, 2005
Texas, sincerely--WTF?
Murtha wins.
posted by bardic at 8:19 PM on November 18, 2005
These people are real! All the Democrats need to go to France, apparently, like the wimps they are!
posted by anthill at 8:20 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by anthill at 8:20 PM on November 18, 2005
re: CSPAN call-in. I can't even get in on the "Others" line...jebus.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:22 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:22 PM on November 18, 2005
Why are the lines: 1) Dems, 2) BUSH SUPPORTERS 3) Others?
Can't you be a Republican and NOT a Bush supporter? Does Cspan just assume they all drink the kool-aid?
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:24 PM on November 18, 2005
Can't you be a Republican and NOT a Bush supporter? Does Cspan just assume they all drink the kool-aid?
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:24 PM on November 18, 2005
um - is this still going? does anyone have a link for streaming video?
posted by stenseng at 8:24 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by stenseng at 8:24 PM on November 18, 2005
Well that was a lot like the Janet Jackson nipple slip during the Super Bowl -- initially a bit titillating, but overall fairly crass and repugnant.
posted by fet at 8:26 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by fet at 8:26 PM on November 18, 2005
It's over. Now it's time for some drinks and hookers! It's Friday night people, let's vote and go home.
posted by anthill at 8:26 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by anthill at 8:26 PM on November 18, 2005
Wait, now they are changing their cotes. I hate congress sometimes....
posted by mmahaffie at 8:27 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mmahaffie at 8:27 PM on November 18, 2005
curmudgeon: It's actually an episode of Lost.
From your lips, to the ears of God's heart!
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:27 PM on November 18, 2005
From your lips, to the ears of God's heart!
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:27 PM on November 18, 2005
Bullshit debate followed by a vote on a sham resolution. I haven't been this disenfranchised since student council.
posted by my sock puppet account at 8:28 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by my sock puppet account at 8:28 PM on November 18, 2005
I like how, when CSPAN isn't taking callers, and there's no action on the floor...the station is, like, DEAD SILENT...couldn't they play some frickin' lounge music or something?
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:29 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:29 PM on November 18, 2005
heh. this is why politics is my Monday Night Football.
*takes another slug of Cuba Libre*
posted by kalimac at 8:29 PM on November 18, 2005
*takes another slug of Cuba Libre*
posted by kalimac at 8:29 PM on November 18, 2005
Yea, seriously, what happened to the 2 Republican 'Yea' votes? Did Maxwell's silver hammer come down upon their heads?
posted by anthill at 8:29 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by anthill at 8:29 PM on November 18, 2005
My tax dollars are paying for this government, Democrat and Republican alike.
I want a refund.
posted by fet amen.
posted by nola at 8:29 PM on November 18, 2005
I want a refund.
posted by fet amen.
posted by nola at 8:29 PM on November 18, 2005
Odd. The stream on cspan.com does not match the CSpan I get on canle....
posted by mmahaffie at 8:29 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mmahaffie at 8:29 PM on November 18, 2005
sock puppet,
man, you guys are hard to please. What? You want a representative Democracy or something? Go to Iraq, Frenchy!!
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:30 PM on November 18, 2005
man, you guys are hard to please. What? You want a representative Democracy or something? Go to Iraq, Frenchy!!
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:30 PM on November 18, 2005
i'll see your cuba libre , and raise you johnnie walker red (taken neat)
posted by nola at 8:31 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by nola at 8:31 PM on November 18, 2005
Mmm.
Next time our gov't implodes, someone let me know so I can blow a load of cash on good whisky?
(Metafilter's new cookbook: Drinks to watch CSPAN by)
posted by kalimac at 8:33 PM on November 18, 2005
Next time our gov't implodes, someone let me know so I can blow a load of cash on good whisky?
(Metafilter's new cookbook: Drinks to watch CSPAN by)
posted by kalimac at 8:33 PM on November 18, 2005
And... we move on to other business. I think they should have a fistfight to close it out.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:34 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mmahaffie at 8:34 PM on November 18, 2005
Booooo. Good night.
posted by leapingsheep at 8:35 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by leapingsheep at 8:35 PM on November 18, 2005
Oooh.. Oooh. He announced a new clek. KAren Hoss (sp?). Welcome Ms. Karen!
posted by mmahaffie at 8:36 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mmahaffie at 8:36 PM on November 18, 2005
This was the only way he could get anyone in the world to watch him resign.
posted by kalimac at 8:38 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by kalimac at 8:38 PM on November 18, 2005
Now I try to sleep. Goodnight to all the MeFites who sat trhough this circus this evening. You made it easier to take.
posted by mmahaffie at 8:41 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by mmahaffie at 8:41 PM on November 18, 2005
nola - bless :) cheaper than the Oban I had planned for a party tomorrow.
posted by kalimac at 8:41 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by kalimac at 8:41 PM on November 18, 2005
agreed, this rocked. The best way to watch this all go down :)
posted by kalimac at 8:42 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by kalimac at 8:42 PM on November 18, 2005
It's heating up again--a Rep. from AZ is accusing Democrats of hating the troops.
He is "desperately worried" about this. Cunt.
posted by bardic at 8:44 PM on November 18, 2005
He is "desperately worried" about this. Cunt.
posted by bardic at 8:44 PM on November 18, 2005
Here is a handy form letter you can send to your Republican representative:
Representative _______,
If you want to waste our money on loud, obnoxious entertainment, please buy the President a monster truck.
Thanks In Advance,
Tacos
posted by I Love Tacos at 8:45 PM on November 18, 2005
Representative _______,
If you want to waste our money on loud, obnoxious entertainment, please buy the President a monster truck.
Thanks In Advance,
Tacos
posted by I Love Tacos at 8:45 PM on November 18, 2005
This isn't debate, now. This is where they ask for time to speak to what turns out to be an empty house. It gets on CSpan and they can use it later. Grandstanding. Not worth our time
G'Nite!
posted by mmahaffie at 8:45 PM on November 18, 2005
G'Nite!
posted by mmahaffie at 8:45 PM on November 18, 2005
SEPTEMBER 11TH TERRORISTS MURDER SCARY WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA BLEAH
what a slimebag.
posted by stenseng at 8:46 PM on November 18, 2005
what a slimebag.
posted by stenseng at 8:46 PM on November 18, 2005
Damn. Jim McDermott got old when I wasn't looking.
posted by stenseng at 8:50 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by stenseng at 8:50 PM on November 18, 2005
its almost like what goes on in our country is our business.
i like our representatives , will be "getting behind our troops" by takin' 'er easy, and going to bed in a warm and safe bed.
posted by nola at 8:53 PM on November 18, 2005
i like our representatives , will be "getting behind our troops" by takin' 'er easy, and going to bed in a warm and safe bed.
posted by nola at 8:53 PM on November 18, 2005
These Arabs, are they musical?
McDermott sounds like an idiot.
posted by bardic at 8:54 PM on November 18, 2005
McDermott sounds like an idiot.
posted by bardic at 8:54 PM on November 18, 2005
A warm and safe bed filled with hookers!
Thank you all for an entertaining evening. Stay safe and drink lots of water.
posted by anthill at 9:00 PM on November 18, 2005
Thank you all for an entertaining evening. Stay safe and drink lots of water.
posted by anthill at 9:00 PM on November 18, 2005
Wow. That was exciting.
posted by Smedleyman at 10:12 PM on November 18, 2005
posted by Smedleyman at 10:12 PM on November 18, 2005
Those voting yes on the resolution were Democrats Jose E. Serrano (N.Y.), Robert Wexler (Fla.) and Cynthia McKinney (Ga.).posted by kirkaracha at 10:20 PM on November 18, 2005
Speaking of withdrawing from Iraq:
posted by kirkaracha at 11:10 PM on November 18, 2005
The top U.S. commander in Iraq has submitted a plan to the Pentagon for withdrawing troops in Iraq, according to a senior defense official.Why do the troops hate the troops?
posted by kirkaracha at 11:10 PM on November 18, 2005
Wow guys, no better recap could there be than this thread. I missed the whole thing as my PBR cajoled me to sleep at 10 on a Friday night. You, sirs and madams, do a Great Serivce to our Nation.
posted by moonbird at 5:24 AM on November 19, 2005
posted by moonbird at 5:24 AM on November 19, 2005
Hmm...
Murtha's plan was for a withdrawal over the next six months, dependent on the safety of the troops, with Marine ready force nearby. It was called "cut and run" by its opponents.
This Pentagon plan, drafted by Casey, calls for significant withdrawals starting early next year. It sounds like Rumsfeld is on board with it, too.
Aside from the blatant hypocrisy of what just happenedin the House of Reps last night, when the Admin backs the Pentagon's plan, won't they essentially be implementing a proposal very similar to what Murtha was calling for?
And if so, then haven't the Dems won big on this issue, by getting out ahead of it and being the ones to champion a withdrawal in 2006?
If we withdraw in a timely way next year, the Dems will be seen as the ones whose leadership and aggressive proactivity brought it to pass and Murtha will look like a hero. If we don't withdraw, the Republicans will be seen as the ones counter to prevailing public sentiment, and Murtha will look like a prophet.
I'm not sure that this little bit of political theatre conjured up by the Republicans in the House is going to turn out like they'd hoped...
posted by darkstar at 5:27 AM on November 19, 2005
Murtha's plan was for a withdrawal over the next six months, dependent on the safety of the troops, with Marine ready force nearby. It was called "cut and run" by its opponents.
This Pentagon plan, drafted by Casey, calls for significant withdrawals starting early next year. It sounds like Rumsfeld is on board with it, too.
Aside from the blatant hypocrisy of what just happenedin the House of Reps last night, when the Admin backs the Pentagon's plan, won't they essentially be implementing a proposal very similar to what Murtha was calling for?
And if so, then haven't the Dems won big on this issue, by getting out ahead of it and being the ones to champion a withdrawal in 2006?
If we withdraw in a timely way next year, the Dems will be seen as the ones whose leadership and aggressive proactivity brought it to pass and Murtha will look like a hero. If we don't withdraw, the Republicans will be seen as the ones counter to prevailing public sentiment, and Murtha will look like a prophet.
I'm not sure that this little bit of political theatre conjured up by the Republicans in the House is going to turn out like they'd hoped...
posted by darkstar at 5:27 AM on November 19, 2005
Of course, right wing bloggers think the whole thing was an example of Democrat perfidy... Here's an example from my neck of the woods. Feel free to post comments correcting this guy...
posted by mmahaffie at 5:50 AM on November 19, 2005
posted by mmahaffie at 5:50 AM on November 19, 2005
Feel free to post comments correcting this guy...
Just did...second comment down!
posted by darkstar at 6:09 AM on November 19, 2005
Just did...second comment down!
posted by darkstar at 6:09 AM on November 19, 2005
And so it begins.
From Fox News:
'Worth Our Sacrifice'
Bush rejects pullout from Iraq
Speaking in South Korea before heading to China,
Pres. Bush defends his war policies and says early withdrawal would be a mistake
Related Stories
Congress Rejects Iraq Exit Bill
posted by The Jesse Helms at 6:16 AM on November 19, 2005
From Fox News:
'Worth Our Sacrifice'
Bush rejects pullout from Iraq
Speaking in South Korea before heading to China,
Pres. Bush defends his war policies and says early withdrawal would be a mistake
Related Stories
Congress Rejects Iraq Exit Bill
posted by The Jesse Helms at 6:16 AM on November 19, 2005
"severe penalties for early withdrawal". fuckers even talk like bankers.
posted by quonsar at 6:59 AM on November 19, 2005
posted by quonsar at 6:59 AM on November 19, 2005
I listened to the debate last night and would have posted something here, but I was too busy cowering from THE ENEMY.
posted by cillit bang at 7:21 AM on November 19, 2005
posted by cillit bang at 7:21 AM on November 19, 2005
Good. Moronic sub-debate over. And so the downward spiral of the Left continues.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:33 AM on November 19, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 7:33 AM on November 19, 2005
PP: As a Republican, I personally find your rhetoric to be singularly unconstructive.
posted by darkstar at 7:45 AM on November 19, 2005
posted by darkstar at 7:45 AM on November 19, 2005
Just keep smiling and clapping, PP.
The fact that the country is turning away from your position, quickly, must really chap your ass.
posted by Cycloptichorn at 7:46 AM on November 19, 2005
The fact that the country is turning away from your position, quickly, must really chap your ass.
posted by Cycloptichorn at 7:46 AM on November 19, 2005
Good. Moronic sub-debate over. And so the downward spiral of the Left continues.
posted by ParisParamus at 7:33 AM PST on November 19
If WMDs are not found in Iraq, and in large quantity (or at least objective evidence that they were destroyed), then, in terms of American politics, the war was a sham, and the President should be indicted.
posted by ParisParamus at 8:57 AM PST on April 29
Stop posting.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:49 AM on November 19, 2005
posted by ParisParamus at 7:33 AM PST on November 19
If WMDs are not found in Iraq, and in large quantity (or at least objective evidence that they were destroyed), then, in terms of American politics, the war was a sham, and the President should be indicted.
posted by ParisParamus at 8:57 AM PST on April 29
Stop posting.
posted by Optimus Chyme at 7:49 AM on November 19, 2005
Darkstar, sorry to hear that. I try to talk on Metafilter on the level of the dialog. Then again, I'm not a Republican, so I shouldn't be speaking for you in the first place.
Actually, the country is not turning away from "my position." Cutting and running is not a viable position, except if you are of the pacifist Left (or, perhaps, French). One can even disagree with me that going into Iraq was not a good idea, but even then, cutting and running is still an insane, frightening position.
The Democrats are now an intellectually bankrupt ensemble of politicians, many of whom should just retire (and to some extent, voters). They have no ideas. Will John Kerry run again? Gee, I hope so...
posted by ParisParamus at 7:56 AM on November 19, 2005
Actually, the country is not turning away from "my position." Cutting and running is not a viable position, except if you are of the pacifist Left (or, perhaps, French). One can even disagree with me that going into Iraq was not a good idea, but even then, cutting and running is still an insane, frightening position.
The Democrats are now an intellectually bankrupt ensemble of politicians, many of whom should just retire (and to some extent, voters). They have no ideas. Will John Kerry run again? Gee, I hope so...
posted by ParisParamus at 7:56 AM on November 19, 2005
Just stop giving him attention. For fucks sake people.
posted by my sock puppet account at 7:57 AM on November 19, 2005
posted by my sock puppet account at 7:57 AM on November 19, 2005
Sorry
posted by Cycloptichorn at 7:59 AM on November 19, 2005
posted by Cycloptichorn at 7:59 AM on November 19, 2005
cutting and running is still an insane, frightening position.
"cutting and running" is an execrable sophistry, as is "insane, frightening". smart people don't fall for it.
posted by quonsar at 8:27 AM on November 19, 2005
"cutting and running" is an execrable sophistry, as is "insane, frightening". smart people don't fall for it.
posted by quonsar at 8:27 AM on November 19, 2005
I was disappointed to see the Murtha story below the fold of my local paper (WaPo). Then again, they had to make room for Fitzgerald getting another grand jury and another Abramoff associate bein charged. Good times.
posted by bardic at 8:40 AM on November 19, 2005
posted by bardic at 8:40 AM on November 19, 2005
God, PP is like a parody of a parody of a parody...of himself.
Cycloptichorn: The fact that the country is turning away from your position, quickly, must really chap your ass.
Well, according to PP's historic post (kindly provided by Optimus Chyme)...the country is apparently turning towards his position.
But that hasn't stopped him from moving the goalposts anyhow. What a coward.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:50 AM on November 19, 2005
Cycloptichorn: The fact that the country is turning away from your position, quickly, must really chap your ass.
Well, according to PP's historic post (kindly provided by Optimus Chyme)...the country is apparently turning towards his position.
But that hasn't stopped him from moving the goalposts anyhow. What a coward.
posted by mr.curmudgeon at 8:50 AM on November 19, 2005
In any event, I must say that watching CSPAN last night was a real thrill. I read reports today that congressional veterans called it one of the most visceral and animated exchanges they'd ever seen.
Getting a little "House-of-Commons-ish" and all...
posted by darkstar at 9:09 AM on November 19, 2005
Getting a little "House-of-Commons-ish" and all...
posted by darkstar at 9:09 AM on November 19, 2005
The only thing embarrassing about the Democrats is that they voted for the war in the first place. People look at the situation and think the Democrats don't have backbones. Wrong. Democrats are merely the same as Republicans. On the major, important issues, they all vote the same while grandstanding on trivial differences.
posted by fleener at 9:26 AM on November 19, 2005
posted by fleener at 9:26 AM on November 19, 2005
I have decided to be kinder and sweeter on Metafilter. Less annoying, too.-- ParisParamus
posted by kirkaracha at 9:29 AM on November 19, 2005
going down so very damn long, that it looks like up,to me..
posted by hortense at 9:55 AM on November 19, 2005
posted by hortense at 9:55 AM on November 19, 2005
Bush: his sober judgment says stay in Iraq--... His war policies under siege at home, President Bush said Saturday there would be no early troop withdrawal because "sober judgment" must prevail over emotional calls to end the military mission before Iraq is stabilized. ...
posted by amberglow at 10:10 AM on November 19, 2005
posted by amberglow at 10:10 AM on November 19, 2005
Does that mean when Bush gets wicked drunk that he starts to say we should cut and run or that we need to nuke the place off the face of the earth? I guess it depends on the type of drunk he is.
posted by my sock puppet account at 10:25 AM on November 19, 2005
posted by my sock puppet account at 10:25 AM on November 19, 2005
he's the mean, evil kind of drunk, i think. And of course, he's always lying so we'll see--i know the GOP in Congress desperately need something to change before the 06 elections.
GOP Lawmakers Float Ethics Probe of Murtha
posted by amberglow at 10:38 AM on November 19, 2005
GOP Lawmakers Float Ethics Probe of Murtha
posted by amberglow at 10:38 AM on November 19, 2005
fafblog: ...The only thing to do is for America to stay the course and remain in Iraq for the next five to twelvezenteen years, until either our resources are depleted or we have been chased from the roof of the American embassy in the middle of a full-blown civil war. That is the kind of blood-curdling, explosively crippling losingdom that terrorists can stand back and admire!
Because when America loses, America loses victoriously! The key is to lose with honor. ...
posted by amberglow at 11:32 AM on November 19, 2005
Because when America loses, America loses victoriously! The key is to lose with honor. ...
posted by amberglow at 11:32 AM on November 19, 2005
"Sorry, George, I'm In the Majority ...from Michael Moore
posted by ericb at 12:17 PM on November 19, 2005
Dear Mr. Bush:More Moore ...
I would like to extend my hand and invite you to join us, the mainstream American majority. We, the people -- that's the majority of the people -- share these majority opinions:1. Going to war was a mistake -- a big mistake. (link)Now, I know this is a bitter pill to swallow. Iraq was going to be your great legacy. Now, it's just your legacy. It didn't have to end up this way."
2. You and your administration misled us into this war. (link)
3. We want the war ended and our troops brought home. (link)
4. We don't trust you. (link)
posted by ericb at 12:17 PM on November 19, 2005
Has anyone found video of the floor fight? I've been checking cspan and no luck.
posted by CunningLinguist at 12:42 PM on November 19, 2005
posted by CunningLinguist at 12:42 PM on November 19, 2005
Jean Shmit is ugly. So un-hot that's so unhot it's like -4° kelven.
posted by Paris Hilton at 2:41 PM on November 19, 2005
posted by Paris Hilton at 2:41 PM on November 19, 2005
Paris Hilton's vocabulary doesn't contain the word "fiasco". Nor "Kelvin", however spelt. You are a sub-par pup socket. "Sub-par". Look it up. In a "dictionary".
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:24 PM on November 19, 2005
posted by goodnewsfortheinsane at 3:24 PM on November 19, 2005
CNN vote: 85% for pullout within 6 months.
Which is exactly what Murtha was calling for in his original resolution. Seems he represents the overwhelming majority of Americans on this...
posted by darkstar at 3:48 PM on November 19, 2005
Which is exactly what Murtha was calling for in his original resolution. Seems he represents the overwhelming majority of Americans on this...
posted by darkstar at 3:48 PM on November 19, 2005
mek wins
posted by mek at 8:16 PM CST on November 18 [!]"
posted by HyperBlue at 4:01 PM on November 19, 2005
posted by mek at 8:16 PM CST on November 18 [!]"
posted by HyperBlue at 4:01 PM on November 19, 2005
We should just let the Iraqi people vote on US troop presence. That should bring out the Sunnis!
For good measure, we can round up all of the Diebold machines in use here and send them to Iraq for the vote. That way we are assured of being voted out, and we can finally leave with honor.
And the Iraqi people will learn how much freedom rocks!
posted by halcyon_daze at 4:19 PM on November 19, 2005
For good measure, we can round up all of the Diebold machines in use here and send them to Iraq for the vote. That way we are assured of being voted out, and we can finally leave with honor.
And the Iraqi people will learn how much freedom rocks!
posted by halcyon_daze at 4:19 PM on November 19, 2005
We should just let the Iraqi people vote on US troop presence.
No need to rely on Diebold machines --
A secret poll commissioned by the British Ministry of Defence examining Iraqi attitudes reveals:
posted by ericb at 5:16 PM on November 19, 2005
No need to rely on Diebold machines --
A secret poll commissioned by the British Ministry of Defence examining Iraqi attitudes reveals:
• 82% are 'strongly opposed' to the presence of coalition troops[Sunday Telegraph | October 23, 2005]
• 72% do not have confidence in the multi-national forces
• less than 1% of the population believes coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security
• 67% of Iraqis feel less secure because of the occupation
• 43% of Iraqis believe conditions for peace and stability have worsened
• 45% of Iraqis believe attacks against British and American troops are justified - rising to 65% in the British-controlled Maysan province
posted by ericb at 5:16 PM on November 19, 2005
Vice President Cheney on 'Meet the Press' -- Sunday, September 14, 2003
DICK CHENEY: "... I really do believe we will be greeted as liberators...." [videotape of Cheney speaking on March 16, 2003]And now two-years later we find in the recent British poll of Iraqi citizens:
TIM RUSSERT: "We have not been greeted as liberators."
DICK CHENEY: "Well, I think we have by most Iraqis. I think the majority of Iraqis are thankful for the fact that the United States is there...you’ll find that, for the most part, a majority of Iraqis support what we did....I mean, if you go out and look at what’s happening on the ground, you’ll find that there is widespread support."
--------------------
TIM RUSSERT: "But is there a connection [between Saddam Hussein and the September 11 attacks]?"
DICK CHENEY: "We don’t know...."
---------------------
DICK CHENEY: "And what we’ve been able to accomplish...[is] what I think has been fairly significant success in terms of putting Iraq back together again..."
"Immediately after the war the coalition embarked on a campaign of reconstruction in which it hoped to improve the electricity supply and the quality of drinking water.posted by ericb at 5:44 PM on November 19, 2005
That appears to have failed, with the poll showing that 71 per cent of people rarely get safe clean water, 47 per cent never have enough electricity, 70 per cent say their sewerage system rarely works and 40 per cent of southern Iraqis are unemployed."
The more I read about this, the more I have to marvel at it.
Our government is run by children. Children!
If only there was a way to send them all to boot camp.
posted by fungible at 7:21 PM on November 19, 2005
Our government is run by children. Children!
If only there was a way to send them all to boot camp.
posted by fungible at 7:21 PM on November 19, 2005
Iraq War Debate Eclipses All Other Issues -- GOP Flounders as Bush's Popularity Falls.
posted by ericb at 10:16 PM on November 19, 2005
posted by ericb at 10:16 PM on November 19, 2005
More Americans want out of Iraq now, than wanted out of Vietnam in 1970. “A USA Today/CNN/Gallup survey last week found that the percentage (52) of Americans who want to get out of Iraq fast, in 12 months or less, is even larger than the percentage (48) that favored a quick withdrawal from Vietnam when that war’s casualty toll neared 54,000 in the apocalyptic year of 1970,” reports Frank Rich.
posted by ericb at 10:18 PM on November 19, 2005
posted by ericb at 10:18 PM on November 19, 2005
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posted by brundlefly at 3:22 PM on November 18, 2005