In Defense of Ms. Hill
September 29, 2014 8:37 PM Subscribe
Artists make art for themselves. Art is an honest expression. Artists who pander to their fans by trying to make music “for” their fans make empty, transparent art. The true fan does not want you to make music for them, they want you to make music for you, because that’s the whole reason they fell in love with you in the first place.Hip hop artist Talib Kweli pens a response to an article criticizing R&B legend Lauryn Hill for being tardy to shows, arguably treating fans with contempt, and a lack of meaningful artistic output since 2002. Others have argued that Lauryn Hill's ouevre should be viewed with a critical eye and raised concerns about potentially homophobic and transphobic lyrics in her recent work.
Ms. Hill previously.
If you have a negative experience at her concert, go home, put on The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill and the next time she does come through your town, don’t go to her concert. Problem solved. Just because you had a negative experience at a Lauryn Hill show doesn’t mean her contribution to the world is invalid or deserves to be disrespected.Whether or not Hill is currently relevant, this advice by Kweli is pretty spot-on. Lauryn Hill will always be a giant of hip-hop and her works will be important and wonderful, even if she does happen to do something disgraceful today.
posted by TypographicalError at 9:07 PM on September 29, 2014 [4 favorites]
Reading the Schumacher article... it just feels like an odd piece somehow.
Looking at it in a broad outline, I see "Hey, there's this artist I really like from years ago, and she's coming to town, and wow, her tickets cost a lot, so I didn't go, but here's some dirt about what went down at that concert I didn't attend (unsourced)." Followed by "She used to be so great, all those years ago when she was popular, but I really haven't followed her much since then. Going to that show would have been a nostalgia experience for me, not really related to things happening now in my life but instead hoping to remind me of Back Then When Things Were Better. Since she charged so much, and has this bad reputation, I'm decided she is worth ignoring. And you should decide that too."
Well, um... okay. Feels more like someone who had a minor grumble and the keyboard rant went on too long and got too public than anything actually worth paying attention to.
This is the kind of article that makes me miss the days when there were editors acting as gatekeepers for what keyboard rants actually reach the eyeballs of the public.
posted by hippybear at 9:18 PM on September 29, 2014 [13 favorites]
Looking at it in a broad outline, I see "Hey, there's this artist I really like from years ago, and she's coming to town, and wow, her tickets cost a lot, so I didn't go, but here's some dirt about what went down at that concert I didn't attend (unsourced)." Followed by "She used to be so great, all those years ago when she was popular, but I really haven't followed her much since then. Going to that show would have been a nostalgia experience for me, not really related to things happening now in my life but instead hoping to remind me of Back Then When Things Were Better. Since she charged so much, and has this bad reputation, I'm decided she is worth ignoring. And you should decide that too."
Well, um... okay. Feels more like someone who had a minor grumble and the keyboard rant went on too long and got too public than anything actually worth paying attention to.
This is the kind of article that makes me miss the days when there were editors acting as gatekeepers for what keyboard rants actually reach the eyeballs of the public.
posted by hippybear at 9:18 PM on September 29, 2014 [13 favorites]
The article Talib Kweli was responding to was petulant in spots, but he lost me in this part of his response:
posted by jingzuo at 9:26 PM on September 29, 2014 [30 favorites]
When you pay for a Lauryn Hill concert you are not paying for her to do what you want, you are paying for her to do what she wants.
Well, if that's the case, if she's running late to a concert (again), why doesn't she just not show up? Apparently we should all be so grateful for her previous albums that anything goes.
Obviously it's impossible for a crowd to dictate her concert to her, but nobody's suggesting that they be able to. Expecting some courtesy (including reasonable punctuality) is hardly an affront to her artistic temperament.
posted by jingzuo at 9:26 PM on September 29, 2014 [30 favorites]
In one of his memoirs, Chuck Jones talks about how when he first was appointed as a director, he spent a lot of time trying to figure out what kinds of things made the audience laugh. He would go to movie theaters where his cartoons were being shown and make all kinds of notes about what the audience responded to, and tried to use that in his later work.
And, he said, the result invariably stunk. Eventually he stopped trying to make things that he thought would make the audience laugh and started making things that made the animators laugh (including himself), and that's when his cartoons started to shine.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 9:29 PM on September 29, 2014 [15 favorites]
And, he said, the result invariably stunk. Eventually he stopped trying to make things that he thought would make the audience laugh and started making things that made the animators laugh (including himself), and that's when his cartoons started to shine.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 9:29 PM on September 29, 2014 [15 favorites]
For people who were fans and old enough to go to Replacements shows in the heyday remembers that is was a real dice roll as to what you would see - if anything. And it was a badge of pride to risk hard earned dollars on showa that might literally be people too drunk to play. So knowing literally squat about this dispute beyond headlines, the fact that one might be arguing that a 'difficult' personality might result in ill-spent entertainment dollars? If said personality was white and male, would this conversation even be happening?
posted by 99_ at 9:41 PM on September 29, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by 99_ at 9:41 PM on September 29, 2014 [9 favorites]
Well, if that's the case, if she's running late to a concert (again), why doesn't she just not show up? Apparently we should all be so grateful for her previous albums that anything goes.
Read the line directly after. Which I also quoted in this thread.
It's not about whether or not Lauryn Hill is or is not a good artist now. The real petulance is insisting that her lack of constant, mass-marketable output or her continuing issues with the difficulties of celebrity somehow invalidate her past contributions to art, culture, charity, and awareness.
posted by TypographicalError at 9:43 PM on September 29, 2014
Read the line directly after. Which I also quoted in this thread.
It's not about whether or not Lauryn Hill is or is not a good artist now. The real petulance is insisting that her lack of constant, mass-marketable output or her continuing issues with the difficulties of celebrity somehow invalidate her past contributions to art, culture, charity, and awareness.
posted by TypographicalError at 9:43 PM on September 29, 2014
"Eventually he stopped trying to make things that he thought would make the audience laugh and started making things that made the animators laugh (including himself), and that's when his cartoons started to shine."
And it was only when Chuck stopped showing up to the office that we began to truly recognize his genius.
posted by boo_radley at 9:46 PM on September 29, 2014 [8 favorites]
And it was only when Chuck stopped showing up to the office that we began to truly recognize his genius.
posted by boo_radley at 9:46 PM on September 29, 2014 [8 favorites]
99_: For people who were fans and old enough to go to Replacements shows in the heyday remembers that is was a real dice roll as to what you would see - if anything.... If said personality was white and male, would this conversation even be happening?
I am not one to deny that race is playing a factor in anything, but I think we can safely file your Replacements example in the "exception that proves the rule" category. Performers are expected to show up and start playing on time (within reason.) This is true regardless of the race of the performer(s). Perhaps Ms. Hill is getting less slack than other acts that show up late, but if I went to one of her shows and she showed up "hours late", I'd be pissed.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:48 PM on September 29, 2014 [7 favorites]
I am not one to deny that race is playing a factor in anything, but I think we can safely file your Replacements example in the "exception that proves the rule" category. Performers are expected to show up and start playing on time (within reason.) This is true regardless of the race of the performer(s). Perhaps Ms. Hill is getting less slack than other acts that show up late, but if I went to one of her shows and she showed up "hours late", I'd be pissed.
posted by tonycpsu at 9:48 PM on September 29, 2014 [7 favorites]
If said personality was white and male, would this conversation even be happening?
Well, sure, a lot of the same complaints have been made about Morrissey (he's a has-been, is a flake/ass to fans and venues, etc.).
posted by rallizes at 9:50 PM on September 29, 2014 [8 favorites]
Well, sure, a lot of the same complaints have been made about Morrissey (he's a has-been, is a flake/ass to fans and venues, etc.).
posted by rallizes at 9:50 PM on September 29, 2014 [8 favorites]
If said personality was white and male, would this conversation even be happening?
Of course, this is a ridiculous question.
For example, in its heyday Guns N' Roses (well, Axl) received tons of criticism for his antics and lateness.
It's kind of bizarre to see people in this thread arguing that because Hill made great albums at one point, her behavior towards people who attend her concerts is beyond reproach.
posted by Sangermaine at 9:52 PM on September 29, 2014 [31 favorites]
Of course, this is a ridiculous question.
For example, in its heyday Guns N' Roses (well, Axl) received tons of criticism for his antics and lateness.
It's kind of bizarre to see people in this thread arguing that because Hill made great albums at one point, her behavior towards people who attend her concerts is beyond reproach.
posted by Sangermaine at 9:52 PM on September 29, 2014 [31 favorites]
A lot of the same complaints were made about Dylan not too long ago, too.
I was one of them. Went to see a show of his, I don't even remember when... 15-20 years ago, maybe? He came out wearing a hat with a giant brim, didn't look at the audience once during his 45 minute set, didn't really bother to try to really sing.
It felt to me, as an audience member, like he was doing the absolute bare minimum to meet his obligation for the show he was contracted to do, and it felt like he would rather have been anywhere but in front of the group of people who were paying him to be there.
I'd rather an artist just cancel a show with a lame excuse like "not in the mood" than do what Dylan did that night.
It doesn't make me go online and write a keyboard rant about how I am now going to discount and ignore his contribution to music, however.
posted by hippybear at 9:55 PM on September 29, 2014 [6 favorites]
I was one of them. Went to see a show of his, I don't even remember when... 15-20 years ago, maybe? He came out wearing a hat with a giant brim, didn't look at the audience once during his 45 minute set, didn't really bother to try to really sing.
It felt to me, as an audience member, like he was doing the absolute bare minimum to meet his obligation for the show he was contracted to do, and it felt like he would rather have been anywhere but in front of the group of people who were paying him to be there.
I'd rather an artist just cancel a show with a lame excuse like "not in the mood" than do what Dylan did that night.
It doesn't make me go online and write a keyboard rant about how I am now going to discount and ignore his contribution to music, however.
posted by hippybear at 9:55 PM on September 29, 2014 [6 favorites]
No true Scotsman would have the audacity to delineate what is and is not a true fan.
posted by belarius at 10:05 PM on September 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by belarius at 10:05 PM on September 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
If I paid good money to attend a show then I am owed a show. It doesn't have to be the show I expected, or the show I thought I wanted, but if you're asking me to pay for a show then you do owe me at least an attempt at a real performance with something approaching artistic merit. Showing up hours late, without excuse, is abusing the goodwill of your fans. You don't have to engage your fans. You can choose to ignore them, to not engage with them. But if you're going to charge money then you DO owe them something. If you don't have it in your heart to behave decently and act in good faith then stop touring, stop pretending that there are schedules for your performances.
In any other context, promising people something at a certain time and charging them money for it creates what we call a "contract."
posted by 1adam12 at 10:25 PM on September 29, 2014 [21 favorites]
In any other context, promising people something at a certain time and charging them money for it creates what we call a "contract."
posted by 1adam12 at 10:25 PM on September 29, 2014 [21 favorites]
If said personality was white and male, would this conversation even be happening?
This one time, Matthew Sweet was like two hours late to a show in Grand Rapids, Michigan. And when he finally arrived, he rushed through his songs so you couldn't sing along with "Girlfriend." And I never bought an album by him again.
posted by goatdog at 10:34 PM on September 29, 2014 [3 favorites]
This one time, Matthew Sweet was like two hours late to a show in Grand Rapids, Michigan. And when he finally arrived, he rushed through his songs so you couldn't sing along with "Girlfriend." And I never bought an album by him again.
posted by goatdog at 10:34 PM on September 29, 2014 [3 favorites]
I remember the time I went to a John Cage concert, and he came in late, and then he just sat there, and didn't play anything at all. One star, would not do it again.
posted by happyroach at 10:44 PM on September 29, 2014 [13 favorites]
posted by happyroach at 10:44 PM on September 29, 2014 [13 favorites]
The Schumacher article is both stupid and offensive.
Having said that. I've had some first-hand experiences watching artists self-destruct on tour, seeing them lose real opportunities due to really bad personalities, or due to real-world problems hidden from the public on a scale you wouldn't believe. From what little I've read, maybe it could be said that Lauryn Hill could be doing better.
But she definitely does not owe anyone anything. In Schumacher's defense, I think he cares about Hill more than just as the creator of a couple of albums he really likes. People sometimes lose their naiveté with music, and it can be painful when someone you idolize shows up late to shows and then kicks out fans that are disappointed. I think the last section of his article might be entitled "I used to love her" in reference to Common's song by the same name, a song that resonated with me deeply when I was growing up.
posted by phaedon at 10:55 PM on September 29, 2014
Having said that. I've had some first-hand experiences watching artists self-destruct on tour, seeing them lose real opportunities due to really bad personalities, or due to real-world problems hidden from the public on a scale you wouldn't believe. From what little I've read, maybe it could be said that Lauryn Hill could be doing better.
But she definitely does not owe anyone anything. In Schumacher's defense, I think he cares about Hill more than just as the creator of a couple of albums he really likes. People sometimes lose their naiveté with music, and it can be painful when someone you idolize shows up late to shows and then kicks out fans that are disappointed. I think the last section of his article might be entitled "I used to love her" in reference to Common's song by the same name, a song that resonated with me deeply when I was growing up.
posted by phaedon at 10:55 PM on September 29, 2014
Cat Power is another artist - where you are not sure which Cat Power is going to show up - the one who is going to put on a great show, or the one that loses herself in her own enui. She was supporting - I think - Jukebox and had a full on band of rock veterans from New Orleans. I watched as over and over again - she would come close to wallowing in sadness, only to have the band ignore her antics and power through to the next song, and she would snap to life again and have to sing rather than just have the band play the intro over and over again.
I was thankful for that band. I get it - you are an artist but one of the basic tenets of being a performing artist is to fucking perform. Show the audience some of the respect that you'd like to receive. If you feel that you can't pull it together - then don't fucking waste my time and money either. And that goes for you also - Oasis, Hole, and Jose Gonzales (who was fucking 3 hours late and proceeded to perform like a second rate busker).
posted by helmutdog at 11:26 PM on September 29, 2014 [5 favorites]
I was thankful for that band. I get it - you are an artist but one of the basic tenets of being a performing artist is to fucking perform. Show the audience some of the respect that you'd like to receive. If you feel that you can't pull it together - then don't fucking waste my time and money either. And that goes for you also - Oasis, Hole, and Jose Gonzales (who was fucking 3 hours late and proceeded to perform like a second rate busker).
posted by helmutdog at 11:26 PM on September 29, 2014 [5 favorites]
agreeing w/ all of you who are saying that showing up late is a major NO. artists do sign performance contracts w/ the promoter. not abiding by them is just poor business. you don't have to sign the contract, nor do you have to play the show to begin with. it isn't just fans who have the expectation of things starting/ending on time, but the crew, the venue staff etc.
w/ all that said, her artistic and creative output is hers and hers alone. there are no "stakeholders" in creativity (unless we're talking about the fine art world and Jeff Koons's creative financing antics).
with all that said, i've seen her live. twice. she was late, but her performances were amazing. :)
posted by raihan_ at 11:34 PM on September 29, 2014
w/ all that said, her artistic and creative output is hers and hers alone. there are no "stakeholders" in creativity (unless we're talking about the fine art world and Jeff Koons's creative financing antics).
with all that said, i've seen her live. twice. she was late, but her performances were amazing. :)
posted by raihan_ at 11:34 PM on September 29, 2014
The idea that this is race-based is ridiculous. I would have the same expectation that the notoriously unreliable Replacements would put on a bad or incoherent show as the notoriously unreliable ODB. This was part of the package of how the musical act was marketed and part of the anticipation of the fans.
Dez Cadena of Black Flag once said that his band never took requests because he felt it was disrespectful to the audience who saw them perform as musicians. That I understand. Black Flag weren't (as far as I know) unprofessional to the point of hostile toward the members of the punk community who were supporting them doing what they loved and getting paid for it.
The much stronger argument in defense of Lauryn Hill is that she is someone who has dealt with mental illness and likely some seriously manipulative relationships in her personal life. By definition, I can't speak to those things. Those are fine excuses for her to give for her behavior but coming up with canards about artistic integrity or this being some kind of thinly-veiled racism are preposterous. She is either someone who is sick and needs to get better or she is a jerk. The truth is probably somewhere in between. None of that invalidates the incredible talent she at one point had.
posted by koavf at 12:04 AM on September 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
Dez Cadena of Black Flag once said that his band never took requests because he felt it was disrespectful to the audience who saw them perform as musicians. That I understand. Black Flag weren't (as far as I know) unprofessional to the point of hostile toward the members of the punk community who were supporting them doing what they loved and getting paid for it.
The much stronger argument in defense of Lauryn Hill is that she is someone who has dealt with mental illness and likely some seriously manipulative relationships in her personal life. By definition, I can't speak to those things. Those are fine excuses for her to give for her behavior but coming up with canards about artistic integrity or this being some kind of thinly-veiled racism are preposterous. She is either someone who is sick and needs to get better or she is a jerk. The truth is probably somewhere in between. None of that invalidates the incredible talent she at one point had.
posted by koavf at 12:04 AM on September 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
Using "high art" snootery in defense of pop culture. Unteresting.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 12:13 AM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Joseph Gurl at 12:13 AM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Interesting, I mostly remember her from that horrible, horrible cover version of Killing Me Softly and I'm quite surprised that she's considered a veritable legend. Maybe it was due to the overexposure of a few songs back in my teenage (I think) years, which always makes me want to put them in the same box as e.g. the Black Eyed Peas.
posted by pseudocode at 12:59 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by pseudocode at 12:59 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
You can simultaneously agree that Hill, Dylan and Rose are seminal artists with an outstanding body of work and that they don't behave professionally when it comes to live performance.
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:16 AM on September 30, 2014 [10 favorites]
posted by Joey Michaels at 1:16 AM on September 30, 2014 [10 favorites]
They continue to accept great deals of money for performing in front of an audience.
Call them seminal (sure, whatever), they are both shitheads.
posted by converge at 1:40 AM on September 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
Call them seminal (sure, whatever), they are both shitheads.
posted by converge at 1:40 AM on September 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
"A lot of the same complaints were made about Dylan not too long ago, too.
...didn't really bother to try to really sing. "
Um, yeah. What exactly were you expecting?
posted by el io at 2:03 AM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
...didn't really bother to try to really sing. "
Um, yeah. What exactly were you expecting?
posted by el io at 2:03 AM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
If said personality was white and male, would this conversation even be happening?
Does every thread have to get threadcrapped with this sort of mechanic now?
posted by emptythought at 2:06 AM on September 30, 2014 [20 favorites]
Does every thread have to get threadcrapped with this sort of mechanic now?
posted by emptythought at 2:06 AM on September 30, 2014 [20 favorites]
I went to the concert at Brixton Academy - people seemed to love it - no booing , lots of dancing and cheering.
She came on at 10pm which is a little late but DJ was good and people sang along to his records.
The mistake i think people make with Lauryn Hill is they expect her to be a pop star whereas she is a Musician (most akin to a Jazz musician) . She conducts her band - her vocals and flow are spot on. If you listen you will be amaze at the talent - she may lose the casual listener.
Also she appears fraught , never relaxed, nothing is ever quite right - you can imagine she will make enemies.
posted by dprs75 at 2:08 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
She came on at 10pm which is a little late but DJ was good and people sang along to his records.
The mistake i think people make with Lauryn Hill is they expect her to be a pop star whereas she is a Musician (most akin to a Jazz musician) . She conducts her band - her vocals and flow are spot on. If you listen you will be amaze at the talent - she may lose the casual listener.
Also she appears fraught , never relaxed, nothing is ever quite right - you can imagine she will make enemies.
posted by dprs75 at 2:08 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I worked at a local venue in York and I'm lucky enough to be friends with many of the musicians who played there. I can say with confidence that all of them would have the same opinion on punctuality: you get paid for a gig, you bloody well turn up on time.
Fans, for sure, adore their favourite musicians for their individuality and unique contributions to the art. But they are also willing to pay a shedload of cash, book trains, take time off and generally go to a lot of trouble to see a concert.
Turning up hours late for your fans shows a lack of common respect and - quite frankly - a disinterest in them.
So, screw that noise about art for art's sake.
posted by alexordave at 2:14 AM on September 30, 2014 [5 favorites]
Fans, for sure, adore their favourite musicians for their individuality and unique contributions to the art. But they are also willing to pay a shedload of cash, book trains, take time off and generally go to a lot of trouble to see a concert.
Turning up hours late for your fans shows a lack of common respect and - quite frankly - a disinterest in them.
So, screw that noise about art for art's sake.
posted by alexordave at 2:14 AM on September 30, 2014 [5 favorites]
If said personality was white and male, would this conversation even be happening?
Justin Beiber did this. She is putting herself in with Justin Beiber.
From Talib's article :
It’s finally time to stop letting folks from outside of our community tell us how to feel about Lauryn Hill
I appreciated Talib Kweli's article and much of what he said was fair. But the idea that white people can't talk about black people is a massive problem for me.
posted by devious truculent and unreliable at 2:49 AM on September 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
Justin Beiber did this. She is putting herself in with Justin Beiber.
From Talib's article :
It’s finally time to stop letting folks from outside of our community tell us how to feel about Lauryn Hill
I appreciated Talib Kweli's article and much of what he said was fair. But the idea that white people can't talk about black people is a massive problem for me.
posted by devious truculent and unreliable at 2:49 AM on September 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
I went to see Dylan close to fifteen years ago. Actually I went to see Petty; Dylan was a bonus. My buddy and I were stoked and even though we just had lawn tickets we were through the roof with excitement and we could feel that crowd thing, you know, when your own excitement is contagious and you get a whole mass of people around you dancing and singing along and it spreads in toward the stage from the cheap seats, then the hoity-toits in the covered part of the venue look over their shoulders and realize what a great show they're at, they put down the white wine and brie and start whooping and pumping fists, so the Heartbreakers, they just opened up, I mean Mike Campbell was wailing and fuuuuuck I mean the joint was rocking, it wasn't quite like '81 of course but then again what ever is? It was as close to a time machine as I've ever helped engineer.
The excitement endured through the changeover between the bands and Bob Motherfucking D came out and played a whole set of rockers, not a whisper of folk, just for me and my buddy, because we asked for it.
I figure you go to shows to stay out late. If you're going to a Lauryn Hill show, bring a few extra doobies to make the wait easier on yourself and the people around you. Take a fucking nap if you want. Wake up when she's ready to go on, and enjoy the show.
You'll get home late. I bet you had a blast. That's great.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 2:58 AM on September 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
The excitement endured through the changeover between the bands and Bob Motherfucking D came out and played a whole set of rockers, not a whisper of folk, just for me and my buddy, because we asked for it.
I figure you go to shows to stay out late. If you're going to a Lauryn Hill show, bring a few extra doobies to make the wait easier on yourself and the people around you. Take a fucking nap if you want. Wake up when she's ready to go on, and enjoy the show.
You'll get home late. I bet you had a blast. That's great.
posted by Ice Cream Socialist at 2:58 AM on September 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
What I'm getting here is that most people see concert tickets as a product/service they are buying, and what appears to be a much smaller number of people see it as something like patronage or even tithing. The tension between being an artist who only does work for herself/himself and a commercial act seems pretty inherent in the mechanisms by which we fund, distribute, and, yes, consume art.
I can see some overlap in the assumptions that mobilize the "Hill doesn't owe you anything" argument and the justification we see when "true artists" suggest that just getting to open for them/collaborate with them is reward enough, so financial compensation is out of the picture.
Once art becomes one more commodity, expect the people paying for it to think of themselves as customers in a service industry, not as patrons or selfless devotees who live to enable l'art pour l'art.
posted by kewb at 3:48 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I can see some overlap in the assumptions that mobilize the "Hill doesn't owe you anything" argument and the justification we see when "true artists" suggest that just getting to open for them/collaborate with them is reward enough, so financial compensation is out of the picture.
Once art becomes one more commodity, expect the people paying for it to think of themselves as customers in a service industry, not as patrons or selfless devotees who live to enable l'art pour l'art.
posted by kewb at 3:48 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
People are not complaining that Lauryn Hill only makes art for herself. People are complaining that her music has been mediocre and erratically performed. She releases her music to the public, and she performs it in public: that makes it fair game to talk about.
How the critical author feels about Lauryn Hill is similar to how I feel about Tim Burton. It is frustrating to see a once-great artist, especially one with so much further potential, inexplicably turn into somebody whom you are no longer interested in following. It's sad, that moment when you realize that they're probably never going to amaze you again.
posted by Sticherbeast at 4:24 AM on September 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
How the critical author feels about Lauryn Hill is similar to how I feel about Tim Burton. It is frustrating to see a once-great artist, especially one with so much further potential, inexplicably turn into somebody whom you are no longer interested in following. It's sad, that moment when you realize that they're probably never going to amaze you again.
posted by Sticherbeast at 4:24 AM on September 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
Ah, but the trick with art, even highly introspective and personal art, once published in such a manner to complete the artist-art-audience circle, is open for critique.
Now, we need to check ourselves when involving ourselves in this criticism, because it so often turns into something else. Especially when the artist is a woman. Or black. Or doing something that makes "moderate" folks uncomfortable.
posted by clvrmnky at 5:02 AM on September 30, 2014
Now, we need to check ourselves when involving ourselves in this criticism, because it so often turns into something else. Especially when the artist is a woman. Or black. Or doing something that makes "moderate" folks uncomfortable.
posted by clvrmnky at 5:02 AM on September 30, 2014
If said personality was white and male, would this conversation even be happening?
If it is any consolation, Axl Rose is known and derided for pulling the same crap.
posted by Renoroc at 5:22 AM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
If it is any consolation, Axl Rose is known and derided for pulling the same crap.
posted by Renoroc at 5:22 AM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think Talib Kweli advances two separate arguments, the first of which - an artist is a human being, doesn't owe you anything, and if they create just one iconic album, that is an incredible achievement for a lifetime - is absolutely fair. But he conflates it with a second argument, which is that fans have no right to engage critically with new work, or to expect the most rudimentary professionalism.
The latter, from my perspective, is hugely patronising to both artist and audience alike. But I can see why Talib Kweli might have a vested interest in insisting that artists be allowed to coast on the strength of early successes while their later output withers into lacklustre mediocrity.
posted by RokkitNite at 5:23 AM on September 30, 2014 [10 favorites]
The latter, from my perspective, is hugely patronising to both artist and audience alike. But I can see why Talib Kweli might have a vested interest in insisting that artists be allowed to coast on the strength of early successes while their later output withers into lacklustre mediocrity.
posted by RokkitNite at 5:23 AM on September 30, 2014 [10 favorites]
Singers and musicians who put on shows are doing more than producing art. They are setting themselves up as performers. As entertainers. They are putting on a show for paying customers, not waiting for precious artistic inspiration to strike their profound souls while possibly being supported by a doting patron. As such they damned well owe it to their audience to show up on time and put on a good show. And that has nothing to do with the sex or race or whatever of the performer in question. It's just common decency and good manners.
posted by Decani at 5:36 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Decani at 5:36 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
In Schumacher's defense, I think he cares about Hill more than just as the creator of a couple of albums he really likes.
Yeah, that intense sense of identification or idolization definitely plays into these conversations, and people can feel incredibly betrayed when an artist with whose work they have made that kind of connection then treats them disrespectfully (such as by showing up late, drunk, etc).
But it's also incredibly common -- from what I've seen at concerts and from what I've read, issues with interpersonal conflict and substance abuse and other things on tours are almost the rule rather than the exception, and a lot of artists skew more erratic than professional in terms of creating a consistent performance every night.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:48 AM on September 30, 2014
Yeah, that intense sense of identification or idolization definitely plays into these conversations, and people can feel incredibly betrayed when an artist with whose work they have made that kind of connection then treats them disrespectfully (such as by showing up late, drunk, etc).
But it's also incredibly common -- from what I've seen at concerts and from what I've read, issues with interpersonal conflict and substance abuse and other things on tours are almost the rule rather than the exception, and a lot of artists skew more erratic than professional in terms of creating a consistent performance every night.
posted by Dip Flash at 5:48 AM on September 30, 2014
Schumacher came off like a tool.
Kweli's rebuttal could have been whittled down to this one sentence, "What kind of self absorbed, entitled nonsense is that?", but I'm glad he took the time to thoughtfully engage the original (and lame) article.
posted by GrapeApiary at 5:57 AM on September 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
Kweli's rebuttal could have been whittled down to this one sentence, "What kind of self absorbed, entitled nonsense is that?", but I'm glad he took the time to thoughtfully engage the original (and lame) article.
posted by GrapeApiary at 5:57 AM on September 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
Regarding Axl Rose, he's been a has-been for a while, yes? Chinese Democracy is not exactly a beloved classic.
Ditto Oasis. I have no idea what those guys are up to.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:04 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Ditto Oasis. I have no idea what those guys are up to.
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:04 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's reaching the point where I feel like the performer should pay me to attend in the first place. If they're sufficiently good, I'll give 'em double their money back.
posted by aramaic at 6:05 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by aramaic at 6:05 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
If said personality was white and male, would this conversation even be happening?
See also Robert Pollard. "Is Bob gonna be too drunk to play tonight or what?"
Anyway, some degree of consideration for the audience and fans seems to be implicit in the "popular" part of "popular music." Altho some people will pay to see a beautiful wreck. Selling capriciousness and making it pay is nice work if you can get it.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:22 AM on September 30, 2014
See also Robert Pollard. "Is Bob gonna be too drunk to play tonight or what?"
Anyway, some degree of consideration for the audience and fans seems to be implicit in the "popular" part of "popular music." Altho some people will pay to see a beautiful wreck. Selling capriciousness and making it pay is nice work if you can get it.
posted by octobersurprise at 6:22 AM on September 30, 2014
Once art becomes one more commodity, expect the people paying for it to think of themselves as customers in a service industry, not as patrons or selfless devotees who live to enable l'art pour l'art.
Patrons expected to get something for their money, too. It might have been their portraits immortalized gawking at the baby Jesus or checking out the scene at the birth of Adam, but they got something for that money.
If I pay for a show, I expect to see a show. That is exactly the same if I'm going to see Couperin played on historically accurate instruments or someone operating a mass of mysterious electronic equipment which emits noise most closely resembling a copier mating with a hydraulic drill. Two hours late for a show is unacceptable and I don't care in which socioeconomic or ethnic grouping the performers may be classed.
posted by winna at 6:22 AM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Patrons expected to get something for their money, too. It might have been their portraits immortalized gawking at the baby Jesus or checking out the scene at the birth of Adam, but they got something for that money.
If I pay for a show, I expect to see a show. That is exactly the same if I'm going to see Couperin played on historically accurate instruments or someone operating a mass of mysterious electronic equipment which emits noise most closely resembling a copier mating with a hydraulic drill. Two hours late for a show is unacceptable and I don't care in which socioeconomic or ethnic grouping the performers may be classed.
posted by winna at 6:22 AM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
The original article from Stefan Schumacher (if anyone bothered to RTFA) wasn't just trashing Lauryn Hill for showing up late and not being good to her "dedicated fans" and not showing "good manners" (whatever), but whining about how much she charged for her show. "I wanted to see Ms. Hill, but something just didn’t sit right with me about paying that much for an artist who hasn’t produced anything of relevance in almost two decades." No, you didn't want to see Lauryn Hill. You wanted to get into a frothy outrage about how much she charged for tickets to her show.
And that was the other point this guy made: she hasn't produced anything but shit in 16 years (his assessment, not mine) so she's fair game for trashing. The crux of his argument wasn't even mainly about her "showing up late" or whatever it is that everyone in this thread has distilled it down to. The crux from that "dedicated fan" (right) is that she's a has-been who shows up late. The showing up late part is a cover for throwing shade at her because she's a has-been. It's important to focus on what the original criticism was, not to take up pitchforks about what Talib Kweli's imagined response was.
And Kweli has another point: no one's going after Axl Rose or whoever else and dissecting all the multiple failings in his personal life, and how those amount to valid things to obsess over in regard to why he's such a jerk/ingrate/fan-cheater.
"I really don’t care about her public statements or even her indiscretions with the law (certainly other artists are guilty of far worse). I just want the music." This dude doesn't "want the music," he wants to vent and get high-fived about what a has-been and a fucked-up failure Hill is, and to get congratulated for seeing and showing us rubes the Truth about her being a laughingstock and a fraud.
As Kweli says, "Schumacher describes himself as part of Ms. Hill’s dedicated fans. I call bullshit." I'm not even a "dedicated fan" and I call bullshit.
posted by blucevalo at 6:23 AM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
And that was the other point this guy made: she hasn't produced anything but shit in 16 years (his assessment, not mine) so she's fair game for trashing. The crux of his argument wasn't even mainly about her "showing up late" or whatever it is that everyone in this thread has distilled it down to. The crux from that "dedicated fan" (right) is that she's a has-been who shows up late. The showing up late part is a cover for throwing shade at her because she's a has-been. It's important to focus on what the original criticism was, not to take up pitchforks about what Talib Kweli's imagined response was.
And Kweli has another point: no one's going after Axl Rose or whoever else and dissecting all the multiple failings in his personal life, and how those amount to valid things to obsess over in regard to why he's such a jerk/ingrate/fan-cheater.
"I really don’t care about her public statements or even her indiscretions with the law (certainly other artists are guilty of far worse). I just want the music." This dude doesn't "want the music," he wants to vent and get high-fived about what a has-been and a fucked-up failure Hill is, and to get congratulated for seeing and showing us rubes the Truth about her being a laughingstock and a fraud.
As Kweli says, "Schumacher describes himself as part of Ms. Hill’s dedicated fans. I call bullshit." I'm not even a "dedicated fan" and I call bullshit.
posted by blucevalo at 6:23 AM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
No, you didn't want to see Lauryn Hill. You wanted to get into a frothy outrage about how much she charged for tickets to her show.
So do you just want to "vent and get high-fived" about how Schumacher is a "laughingstock and a fraud", or what's your excuse?
posted by mr. digits at 6:29 AM on September 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
So do you just want to "vent and get high-fived" about how Schumacher is a "laughingstock and a fraud", or what's your excuse?
posted by mr. digits at 6:29 AM on September 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
And Kweli has another point: no one's going after Axl Rose or whoever else and dissecting all the multiple failings in his personal life, and how those amount to valid things to obsess over in regard to why he's such a jerk/ingrate/fan-cheater.
are you kidding? - he's a running joke in rock and roll circles and on rock radio shows
i think they're both has-beens - axl, because he's a world-class jerk, and lauren, because maybe she's just not all that into being a pop star, which is legitimate, but showing up hours late to your concerts is going too far
posted by pyramid termite at 6:30 AM on September 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
are you kidding? - he's a running joke in rock and roll circles and on rock radio shows
i think they're both has-beens - axl, because he's a world-class jerk, and lauren, because maybe she's just not all that into being a pop star, which is legitimate, but showing up hours late to your concerts is going too far
posted by pyramid termite at 6:30 AM on September 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
I can't get on-board with the idea that an artist who sells tickets to a show owes nothing to their audience. That's straight-up bullshit - it's a commercial transaction. It's like going to a restaurant and paying for a meal that never comes, or isn't what you ordered at all, or is cold, and then being told "oh but the chef is an artiste and does what he pleases, you should be grateful to even have a seat here!"
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:42 AM on September 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by grumpybear69 at 6:42 AM on September 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
When you pay for a Lauryn Hill concert you are not paying for her to do what you want, you are paying for her to do what she wants.
Yeah, this is not exactly right, but I think he's nibbling around the edges of something true here: You're paying for her to use her aesthetic judgment in the art she makes for you. Now, sure, artists are and should be free to set the terms of when or if they make/release art for you at all, but that doesn't mean they get to break commitments they've already made to make and release that art, without a good reason and some sense of personal responsibility.
Nobody's paying Lauryn Hill not to show up for a concert she previously agreed to play and accepted people's money for--though it's true they're paying for her to do what she wants on stage and in the studio, in the choices she makes in her performances. Those choices are hers and hers absolutely, as are the choices of whether to agree to perform publicly or release her music at all. What she commits to as an artist is her choice, but everyone's expected to meet their commitments once they make them.
He does have a point, in a way, though. The arts aren't like most service industries. The client is buying whatever ideas the artist thinks are in good taste. Art isn't just about economics, it's also about human culture and the processes by which we transmit and shape the culture.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:03 AM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Yeah, this is not exactly right, but I think he's nibbling around the edges of something true here: You're paying for her to use her aesthetic judgment in the art she makes for you. Now, sure, artists are and should be free to set the terms of when or if they make/release art for you at all, but that doesn't mean they get to break commitments they've already made to make and release that art, without a good reason and some sense of personal responsibility.
Nobody's paying Lauryn Hill not to show up for a concert she previously agreed to play and accepted people's money for--though it's true they're paying for her to do what she wants on stage and in the studio, in the choices she makes in her performances. Those choices are hers and hers absolutely, as are the choices of whether to agree to perform publicly or release her music at all. What she commits to as an artist is her choice, but everyone's expected to meet their commitments once they make them.
He does have a point, in a way, though. The arts aren't like most service industries. The client is buying whatever ideas the artist thinks are in good taste. Art isn't just about economics, it's also about human culture and the processes by which we transmit and shape the culture.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:03 AM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
No, you didn't want to see Lauryn Hill. You wanted to get into a frothy outrage about how much she charged for tickets to her show.
And now that I've looked at it, the worst—or best, I'm on the fence here—thing about the Schumacher piece is its eye-rollingly OTT posture of outraged grievance more suited to a teenaged breakup (Is Schumacher a teenager? Find out—ed.) or a smudged fanzine. I mean, with titles like It’s Finally Time to Stop Caring About Lauryn Hill and I Used to Love Her, I'm kind of wondering if Schumacher lives in a room papered with pictures of Ms. Hill.
In conclusion, this all looks like the perfect union of wacky performer and tortured fan. I hope they will continue to be very unhappy together.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:06 AM on September 30, 2014
And now that I've looked at it, the worst—or best, I'm on the fence here—thing about the Schumacher piece is its eye-rollingly OTT posture of outraged grievance more suited to a teenaged breakup (Is Schumacher a teenager? Find out—ed.) or a smudged fanzine. I mean, with titles like It’s Finally Time to Stop Caring About Lauryn Hill and I Used to Love Her, I'm kind of wondering if Schumacher lives in a room papered with pictures of Ms. Hill.
In conclusion, this all looks like the perfect union of wacky performer and tortured fan. I hope they will continue to be very unhappy together.
posted by octobersurprise at 7:06 AM on September 30, 2014
Ditto Oasis. I have no idea what those guys are up to.
Broke up a while ago. Spun off into separate bands.
no one's going after Axl Rose or whoever else and dissecting all the multiple failings in his personal life, and how those amount to valid things to obsess over in regard to why he's such a jerk/ingrate/fan-cheater
As mentioned numerous times in this thread. This is not true. See also Morrissey (a whoever else), as mentioned above.
posted by juiceCake at 7:07 AM on September 30, 2014
Broke up a while ago. Spun off into separate bands.
no one's going after Axl Rose or whoever else and dissecting all the multiple failings in his personal life, and how those amount to valid things to obsess over in regard to why he's such a jerk/ingrate/fan-cheater
As mentioned numerous times in this thread. This is not true. See also Morrissey (a whoever else), as mentioned above.
posted by juiceCake at 7:07 AM on September 30, 2014
And Kweli has another point: no one's going after Axl Rose or whoever else and dissecting all the multiple failings in his personal life, and how those amount to valid things to obsess over in regard to why he's such a jerk/ingrate/fan-cheater.
Maybe this is a generational thing, but...I came of age right around the time when Guns & Roses was definitely way the hell out and Nirvana became well the hell in. In the intervening years, my only awareness of G&R had been about Axl Rose's personal problems, his increasingly-weird face, and the long-gestating, super-expensive, disaster-to-be Chinese Democracy.
I feel like I have heard much more about Lauryn Hill in the roughly equivalent period of time, and almost all of that has been pitying, or even downright sympathetic. Schumacher's piece is the first angry one I've read. Granting that it may be unfair to be angry at Lauryn Hill for anything other than being a disappointing musician, it is also unfair to suggest that she is, functionally speaking, above criticism.
My two cents is that she is a talented person whose personality did not work in the commercial music universe. It sounds like she's had a number of problems, including unhelpful religious cul-de-sacs. I think many of her fans are especially frustrated with her because she had exhibited so much promise for a number of years. What's more, her promise had a personal touch: she wasn't just making a few fun hits, but rather it had almost seemed like she was making musical manifestos. That made the fall harder, for her fans.
People love a comeback kid, but she has not been able to come back. It's sad. It's like finding out that your long-lost friend from high school, the one who had seemed like she was going to set the world on fire with her art, has become an alcoholic office drone who doesn't seem as sharp, or even as nice, as she had once been.
I don't think it's a good idea to say that she has committed some kind of moral offense by not continuing her musical promise. That said, I also don't think it's a good idea to foist the myth upon her that she was too pure for this world, and her fickle fans just couldn't understand. She's neither a hero nor a villain, just a person.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:10 AM on September 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
Maybe this is a generational thing, but...I came of age right around the time when Guns & Roses was definitely way the hell out and Nirvana became well the hell in. In the intervening years, my only awareness of G&R had been about Axl Rose's personal problems, his increasingly-weird face, and the long-gestating, super-expensive, disaster-to-be Chinese Democracy.
I feel like I have heard much more about Lauryn Hill in the roughly equivalent period of time, and almost all of that has been pitying, or even downright sympathetic. Schumacher's piece is the first angry one I've read. Granting that it may be unfair to be angry at Lauryn Hill for anything other than being a disappointing musician, it is also unfair to suggest that she is, functionally speaking, above criticism.
My two cents is that she is a talented person whose personality did not work in the commercial music universe. It sounds like she's had a number of problems, including unhelpful religious cul-de-sacs. I think many of her fans are especially frustrated with her because she had exhibited so much promise for a number of years. What's more, her promise had a personal touch: she wasn't just making a few fun hits, but rather it had almost seemed like she was making musical manifestos. That made the fall harder, for her fans.
People love a comeback kid, but she has not been able to come back. It's sad. It's like finding out that your long-lost friend from high school, the one who had seemed like she was going to set the world on fire with her art, has become an alcoholic office drone who doesn't seem as sharp, or even as nice, as she had once been.
I don't think it's a good idea to say that she has committed some kind of moral offense by not continuing her musical promise. That said, I also don't think it's a good idea to foist the myth upon her that she was too pure for this world, and her fickle fans just couldn't understand. She's neither a hero nor a villain, just a person.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:10 AM on September 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
This thread has at least shown us that there are apparently people who believe that only Lauryn Hill, unique among all musicians and performers in the world, receives criticism for her behavior.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:17 AM on September 30, 2014
posted by Sangermaine at 7:17 AM on September 30, 2014
The big surprise here for me is that people still care about Lauryn Hill. It's one thing to hold that "The Score" and "The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill" were important albums in the late 1990s. But these two albums, produced in a two-year period, represent the sum total of her noteworthy musical output. Clearly this discussion would not ensue about the musician who had made "Blunted on Reality" and "MTV Unplugged No. 2.0" and a smattering of one-offs. So, effectively what we have here is someone trying to make a living off the artistic cachet and notoriety she earned from a body of work produced during a two-year period that ensued almost twenty years ago, and who has added remarkably little to that body of work in either quality or quantity. That's all good and well. Plenty of people do that. At this point, however, she is a nostalgia act. Nostalgia acts live of the good will of their fan base, and if she wants to continue making money off people who really liked her songs in 1998 she would be well advised to be a bit more professional and a bit less "artiste" when it comes to her gigs. If she wants to be the "artiste" again, maybe she should, yanno, produce some good art so that people would care again.
posted by slkinsey at 7:17 AM on September 30, 2014 [12 favorites]
posted by slkinsey at 7:17 AM on September 30, 2014 [12 favorites]
It's like finding out that your long-lost friend from high school, the one who had seemed like she was going to set the world on fire with her art, has become an alcoholic office drone who doesn't seem as sharp, or even as nice, as she had once been.
Hey, don't judge your "office drone" friend too much. Chances are, she's got huge amounts of debt and a family to support. Meeting basic personal and social obligations is a minimum requirement of being human, artist or not. As long as it's more economically responsible and socially acceptable for your talented friend to meet their minimum duties as a human by working as an office drone rather than putting their real talents to use, the great shape sorter that is the social process is going to just keep sorting her into that office drone role. No wonder she's not as nice anymore, pissing away her real talents just to survive because that's what our system is optimized to make her do. Probably pretty damn frustrating.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:29 AM on September 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
Hey, don't judge your "office drone" friend too much. Chances are, she's got huge amounts of debt and a family to support. Meeting basic personal and social obligations is a minimum requirement of being human, artist or not. As long as it's more economically responsible and socially acceptable for your talented friend to meet their minimum duties as a human by working as an office drone rather than putting their real talents to use, the great shape sorter that is the social process is going to just keep sorting her into that office drone role. No wonder she's not as nice anymore, pissing away her real talents just to survive because that's what our system is optimized to make her do. Probably pretty damn frustrating.
posted by saulgoodman at 7:29 AM on September 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
if you go to a lauryn hill, cat power, bob dylan, etc show expecting that you're going to get the equivalent of loading up your favorite tracks of theirs and hitting shuffle, you are going to be sorely disappointed. if that's what you want, go see britney spears (doesn't matter that she doesn't sing live, it's not her voice on the records anyway) or the foo fighters. i wouldn't pay to see that first group of acts because while i love their music, and their artistic sense, and have loved things they've said in the past, i know that seeing them live is more like going to a performance art show. if you're so unaware of their reputations, or unwilling to have a non-standard experience, then maybe you shouldn't shell out so much money to see them play.
posted by nadawi at 7:31 AM on September 30, 2014
posted by nadawi at 7:31 AM on September 30, 2014
From Talib's article :
that's not what he said. he said that black people should stop being influenced by what white people think about lauryn hill. it seems completely uncontroversial for kweli to suggest that on some topics black people should pay more attention to black critics on black artists. he never said white people couldn't talk, just that maybe black people shouldn't put so much weight on it when they do.
posted by nadawi at 7:34 AM on September 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
It’s finally time to stop letting folks from outside of our community tell us how to feel about Lauryn HillI appreciated Talib Kweli's article and much of what he said was fair. But the idea that white people can't talk about black people is a massive problem for me.
that's not what he said. he said that black people should stop being influenced by what white people think about lauryn hill. it seems completely uncontroversial for kweli to suggest that on some topics black people should pay more attention to black critics on black artists. he never said white people couldn't talk, just that maybe black people shouldn't put so much weight on it when they do.
posted by nadawi at 7:34 AM on September 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
If she wants to be the "artiste" again, maybe she should, yanno, produce some good art so that people would care again.
Keep up, man. Lauryn Hill - Black Rage, put up last month.
posted by cashman at 7:41 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Keep up, man. Lauryn Hill - Black Rage, put up last month.
posted by cashman at 7:41 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
if that's what you want, go see britney spears
LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!!
posted by octobersurprise at 7:42 AM on September 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!!
posted by octobersurprise at 7:42 AM on September 30, 2014 [3 favorites]
Related: On Lauryn Hill and Shaking the Vending Machine
Jay Smooth, from years ago. (This is more about the years she took off, than the current late showing up to shows)
posted by DigDoug at 7:46 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Jay Smooth, from years ago. (This is more about the years she took off, than the current late showing up to shows)
posted by DigDoug at 7:46 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
if you go to a lauryn hill, cat power, bob dylan, etc show expecting that you're going to get the equivalent of loading up your favorite tracks of theirs and hitting shuffle, you are going to be sorely disappointed.
Are you seriously comparing Lauryn Hill to Bob Dylan? Dylan is considered one of the most legendary and influential popular genre musicians of the last 100 years. He has released something like thirty-five studio albums over more than fifty years, including within the last two years. If Dylan wants his concerts to be an "art performance show," he's earned it by continuing to have artistic relevance and quality artistic output to this day. Even comparisons to Cat Power are not apropos, as she continues to produce relevant work.
posted by slkinsey at 7:48 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Are you seriously comparing Lauryn Hill to Bob Dylan? Dylan is considered one of the most legendary and influential popular genre musicians of the last 100 years. He has released something like thirty-five studio albums over more than fifty years, including within the last two years. If Dylan wants his concerts to be an "art performance show," he's earned it by continuing to have artistic relevance and quality artistic output to this day. Even comparisons to Cat Power are not apropos, as she continues to produce relevant work.
posted by slkinsey at 7:48 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's pretty widely known that Hill's chronic lateness and tendency to vanish has a lot to do with her string of abusive relationships and mental health issues. And Kwell stands there saying "How dare anyone suggest she has a problem." What a bad friend he is.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 7:59 AM on September 30, 2014
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 7:59 AM on September 30, 2014
I haven't read the comments yet, just the articles. The idea that artists don't "owe" their fans anything is sort of bunk. Artists and fans have an interesting relationship, but if you sell tickets that say 8pm on them, and you show up at 10, that's not something I respect.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:59 AM on September 30, 2014
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 7:59 AM on September 30, 2014
Are you seriously comparing Lauryn Hill to Bob Dylan?
i was comparing their shows. just in case you were confused the whole way through, i am also not comparing the work of britney spears to the foo fighters. besides lauryn hill means a lot more to some people than bob dylan does - that isn't a knock on either ones artistic merit or output (although to pretend that bob dylan has been consistently good and important is quite the stretch). people continue to pay to see bob dylan, cat power, and lauryn hill even though it's well known what type of shows they put on. it seems to me that they've all earned it by that metric.
posted by nadawi at 8:01 AM on September 30, 2014
i was comparing their shows. just in case you were confused the whole way through, i am also not comparing the work of britney spears to the foo fighters. besides lauryn hill means a lot more to some people than bob dylan does - that isn't a knock on either ones artistic merit or output (although to pretend that bob dylan has been consistently good and important is quite the stretch). people continue to pay to see bob dylan, cat power, and lauryn hill even though it's well known what type of shows they put on. it seems to me that they've all earned it by that metric.
posted by nadawi at 8:01 AM on September 30, 2014
No wonder she's not as nice anymore, pissing away her real talents just to survive because that's what our system is optimized to make her do. Probably pretty damn frustrating.
Uh. What? Speaking as another drone, this seems like a reach of an unrelated rant. In my hypothetical, feel free to assume that she's not even doing a good job of meeting her own needs or the needs of others. Hell, feel free to assume that she won the lottery and now she just lazes away, unhappily. The point is, it is sad when somebody has potential, but then seems to squander it.
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:02 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Uh. What? Speaking as another drone, this seems like a reach of an unrelated rant. In my hypothetical, feel free to assume that she's not even doing a good job of meeting her own needs or the needs of others. Hell, feel free to assume that she won the lottery and now she just lazes away, unhappily. The point is, it is sad when somebody has potential, but then seems to squander it.
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:02 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Keep up, man. Lauryn Hill - Black Rage, put up last month.
This piece actually dates from several years ago. I wouldn't say that putting new lyrics and a beat to a 1959 Rogers and Hammerstein song that has been extensively and famously worked over by other musicians represents a clear return to quality artistic productivity, but it's a small step in the right direction.
posted by slkinsey at 8:02 AM on September 30, 2014
This piece actually dates from several years ago. I wouldn't say that putting new lyrics and a beat to a 1959 Rogers and Hammerstein song that has been extensively and famously worked over by other musicians represents a clear return to quality artistic productivity, but it's a small step in the right direction.
posted by slkinsey at 8:02 AM on September 30, 2014
You realize you're talking about someone who first appeared on America's radar by putting a new beat on a 1971 song that has been extensively and famously worked over by other musicians , right?
posted by entropicamericana at 8:06 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by entropicamericana at 8:06 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Uh. What? Speaking as another drone, this seems like a reach of an unrelated rant. In my hypothetical, feel free to assume that she's not even doing a good job of meeting her own needs or the needs of others. Hell, feel free to assumer that she won the lottery and now she just lazes away, unhappily. The point is, it is sad when somebody has potential, but then seems to squander it.
Ach. I didn't mean that to sound ranty at all, but sort of avuncular and kind of ironically bitter, in an old Gen X man sort of tone. Sorry to have confused. Keep forgetting we can't clarify shades of meaning by releasing pheromones when communicating on the internet.
posted by saulgoodman at 8:07 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Ach. I didn't mean that to sound ranty at all, but sort of avuncular and kind of ironically bitter, in an old Gen X man sort of tone. Sorry to have confused. Keep forgetting we can't clarify shades of meaning by releasing pheromones when communicating on the internet.
posted by saulgoodman at 8:07 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
This piece actually dates from several years ago. I wouldn't say that putting new lyrics and a beat to a 1959 Rogers and Hammerstein song that has been extensively and famously worked over by other musicians represents a clear return to quality artistic productivity, but it's a small step in the right direction.
Black Rage is a great song, and I thought about making a post highlighting it when it came out. In the midst of people who look like me getting murdered by the state, getting attacked, getting arrested for existing while being black, getting dismissed and treated like we aren't part of the human community, this song came out and I immediately listened to it on repeat for hours on end.
Lauryn captured so well how a good amount of white people are thinking about raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens, we're getting shot to death for showing up in society while being black. When Trayvon Martin got killed, that same week there was a story about a white girl who was about 14 or 15, who bought her first house in Florida. Cream colored ponies and crisp apple strudels.
So this song by Ms. Hill just produces emotions that I can't even fully explain. It sounds good. It's so bare and open, and the tone reminds me of Jazmine Sullivan performing in a barbershop, one of the places a lot of things get talked about. And the way she turns the lyrics around is just incredible. I'm singing along to something I'm living. I've got family members terrified that I'm going to end up dead at the hands of some white person during some misunderstanding, and that person will inevitably not only get off from any charges that arise, but their killing of me will be gofundme'd and actually make them money.
"I simply remember these kinds of things and then I don't fear so bad." I finally had to not listen to it as much after a while, because I just couldn't take it. It's heartbreaking. This year, last year, the year before - there isn't anything that I've heard about this situation that is touching that. If you disagree, link me to the song and give me an explanation that rivals this.
posted by cashman at 8:07 AM on September 30, 2014 [11 favorites]
Black Rage is a great song, and I thought about making a post highlighting it when it came out. In the midst of people who look like me getting murdered by the state, getting attacked, getting arrested for existing while being black, getting dismissed and treated like we aren't part of the human community, this song came out and I immediately listened to it on repeat for hours on end.
Lauryn captured so well how a good amount of white people are thinking about raindrops on roses and whiskers on kittens, we're getting shot to death for showing up in society while being black. When Trayvon Martin got killed, that same week there was a story about a white girl who was about 14 or 15, who bought her first house in Florida. Cream colored ponies and crisp apple strudels.
So this song by Ms. Hill just produces emotions that I can't even fully explain. It sounds good. It's so bare and open, and the tone reminds me of Jazmine Sullivan performing in a barbershop, one of the places a lot of things get talked about. And the way she turns the lyrics around is just incredible. I'm singing along to something I'm living. I've got family members terrified that I'm going to end up dead at the hands of some white person during some misunderstanding, and that person will inevitably not only get off from any charges that arise, but their killing of me will be gofundme'd and actually make them money.
"I simply remember these kinds of things and then I don't fear so bad." I finally had to not listen to it as much after a while, because I just couldn't take it. It's heartbreaking. This year, last year, the year before - there isn't anything that I've heard about this situation that is touching that. If you disagree, link me to the song and give me an explanation that rivals this.
posted by cashman at 8:07 AM on September 30, 2014 [11 favorites]
Who decides if an artist has "earned" the right to do this or that? Lauryn Hill might not be playing the "being an artist" game very well, for whatever reason, but her unprofessional behaviour isn't more or less excusable than the unprofessional behaviour of Tardy McArtist, Jr.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 8:16 AM on September 30, 2014
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 8:16 AM on September 30, 2014
I may be wrong, but I feel like cashman has been the first in this thread to really go to bat for Lauryn Hill has a contemporary musician, making music qua music. And I think that's part of why I became annoyed at Kweli's essay: are people defending the idea of Lauryn Hill, or are they defending her music? "She makes music for herself" sounds like a thin-blooded rationalization to me. "She made this amazing track which moved me in a unique way", on the other hand, is a lively and substantive defense of Hill's actual music, and in that way, it's also a much sturdier defense of Hill as a person as well.
Ach. I didn't mean that to sound ranty at all, but sort of avuncular and kind of ironically bitter, in an old Gen X man sort of tone. Sorry to have confused. Keep forgetting we can't clarify shades of meaning by releasing pheromones when communicating on the internet.
Fair enough! I relate to what you're saying, especially now that I understand more clearly where you were coming from.
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:19 AM on September 30, 2014
Ach. I didn't mean that to sound ranty at all, but sort of avuncular and kind of ironically bitter, in an old Gen X man sort of tone. Sorry to have confused. Keep forgetting we can't clarify shades of meaning by releasing pheromones when communicating on the internet.
Fair enough! I relate to what you're saying, especially now that I understand more clearly where you were coming from.
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:19 AM on September 30, 2014
It's one thing to say that people should not expect to hear nothing but the act's biggest hits on shuffle play, it's another to say that people should expect the artist to be hours late. Nobody's earned the right to show up and play whenever they feel like it.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:22 AM on September 30, 2014
posted by tonycpsu at 8:22 AM on September 30, 2014
As a concert-goer, I fucking HATE it when a band is exceptionally late. I mean, Motley Crue went on an hour late at Bill Graham last time because it took that fucking long to assemble the 360° steel loop that that Tommy Lee's drum kit was attached to. There was also a side-seat where one fan got strapped in and taken for a ride during TL's upside-down drum solo. So that was pretty fucking awesome to watch.
But honestly, first thing that comes to mind when talent pulls something like this: "The crowd is gonna take it out on the bar staff."
Unhappy customers looking up at the price of been on the sign is part of the job. But when they're coming back for the 2nd & 3rd round wondering "Where the fuck is she," it's gonna up the level of shit that needs dealing with.
Not everyone in the crowd. But my professional experience & gut instinct is to bet the bar staff had to deal with more than your average volume of crankiness and aggro that night, and I hope that the tips made up for it.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:29 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
But honestly, first thing that comes to mind when talent pulls something like this: "The crowd is gonna take it out on the bar staff."
Unhappy customers looking up at the price of been on the sign is part of the job. But when they're coming back for the 2nd & 3rd round wondering "Where the fuck is she," it's gonna up the level of shit that needs dealing with.
Not everyone in the crowd. But my professional experience & gut instinct is to bet the bar staff had to deal with more than your average volume of crankiness and aggro that night, and I hope that the tips made up for it.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:29 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
As much as I think Lauryn Hill is a legend, I'd be pissed if she didn't show up to a show I paid for. Same thing with (MF) Doom when he was sending imposters to do his shows. I love both of them and they have no equals, but I'd be highly upset.
posted by cashman at 8:29 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by cashman at 8:29 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
all it takes to "earn" that right is for promoters to keep booking you and people to keep buying tickets to your shows. someone going to one of her shows can't claim ignorance.
posted by nadawi at 8:30 AM on September 30, 2014
posted by nadawi at 8:30 AM on September 30, 2014
nadawi: all it takes to "earn" that right is for promoters to keep booking you and people to keep buying tickets to your shows. someone going to one of her shows can't claim0 ignorance.
Of course they can. You're assuming not only that the people going to the shows know her body of work, but that they also know her reputation for showing up late. In reality, a wide spectrum of people go to see acts, from die-hard fans to people who might just know the hits. You may wish it was just people who did their research, but that goes against what actually happens, and the simple fact is people expect acts to show up when the show begins. You don't see opera or theater productions pulling this shit except in unusual circumstances, because people would stop showing up if they did.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:35 AM on September 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
Of course they can. You're assuming not only that the people going to the shows know her body of work, but that they also know her reputation for showing up late. In reality, a wide spectrum of people go to see acts, from die-hard fans to people who might just know the hits. You may wish it was just people who did their research, but that goes against what actually happens, and the simple fact is people expect acts to show up when the show begins. You don't see opera or theater productions pulling this shit except in unusual circumstances, because people would stop showing up if they did.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:35 AM on September 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
cashman, I wouldn't attempt to dispute the reality of your reaction to that piece and its lyric. If it speaks powerfully to you, then it speaks powerfully to you. For me, while I might have found it a timely lyric set to a rehashing of familiar melodic territory, I find it uninteresting as poetry and I don't find it compelling as a musical composition. That's neither here nor there, I suppose. The output has still been fairly meager. More to the point, as others have pointed out, no performing artist has earned the "right" to show up hours late or simply fail to give a real performance to a paying audience.
What I was getting at with some of my earlier commentary is that Bob Dylan, for example, may show up and give a performance that some audience members don't like. But that performance will take place within the context of a long history of boundary-pushing and it will be performed by a musician who has continued to evolve and who is offering either new material or a different look at older material. This is simply not who Lauryn Hill is nor what she appears to be doing at her performances.
posted by slkinsey at 8:37 AM on September 30, 2014
What I was getting at with some of my earlier commentary is that Bob Dylan, for example, may show up and give a performance that some audience members don't like. But that performance will take place within the context of a long history of boundary-pushing and it will be performed by a musician who has continued to evolve and who is offering either new material or a different look at older material. This is simply not who Lauryn Hill is nor what she appears to be doing at her performances.
posted by slkinsey at 8:37 AM on September 30, 2014
if you're spending that amount of money because you know the hits from 20 years ago and know nothing of the artist today, i have no sympathy for you when you get something other than what you thought you were paying for.
there's a marc maron podcast, i think with simon amstell, where they talk about a british comedian who would purposefully be terrible to watch people walk out, he'd show up late, he'd do bad material, he'd do everything he could to get people to leave. and then when he was satisfied that the people in the audience were ready, he'd put on an amazing show. it's not the path to getting the biggest audiences or the most money or to be the most loved, but it is something that some artists do. it not being to your liking might just be the point.
posted by nadawi at 8:39 AM on September 30, 2014
there's a marc maron podcast, i think with simon amstell, where they talk about a british comedian who would purposefully be terrible to watch people walk out, he'd show up late, he'd do bad material, he'd do everything he could to get people to leave. and then when he was satisfied that the people in the audience were ready, he'd put on an amazing show. it's not the path to getting the biggest audiences or the most money or to be the most loved, but it is something that some artists do. it not being to your liking might just be the point.
posted by nadawi at 8:39 AM on September 30, 2014
Frankly, I don't care who I'm seeing; I expect the show will start as advertised. You took my money; please respect my time. I'm not really into justifying or enabling the performer's bad behavior by saying, as noted upthread, bring a couple of extra doobies or take a nap. Uh, no. Show advertised at 8 p.m. That's when it starts, then, barring acts of God or civil unrest.
Regarding Lauryn Hill, her reported mental health issues, her unwillingness to pay taxes, her domestic situation, all may play a role in her attitude towards performing. That said, if she is unable to meet her professional obligations, I would think it appropriate for her, out of respect for her fans and in observance of her contracts, not to make any until she straightens out whatever is interfering with her work.
posted by the sobsister at 8:42 AM on September 30, 2014
Regarding Lauryn Hill, her reported mental health issues, her unwillingness to pay taxes, her domestic situation, all may play a role in her attitude towards performing. That said, if she is unable to meet her professional obligations, I would think it appropriate for her, out of respect for her fans and in observance of her contracts, not to make any until she straightens out whatever is interfering with her work.
posted by the sobsister at 8:42 AM on September 30, 2014
nadawi: if you're spending that amount of money because you know the hits from 20 years ago and know nothing of the artist today, i have no sympathy for you when you get something other than what you thought you were paying for.
It's not that they expect the hits, it's that they expect her to respect their time. Hostility toward the audience is not art, sorry.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:42 AM on September 30, 2014
It's not that they expect the hits, it's that they expect her to respect their time. Hostility toward the audience is not art, sorry.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:42 AM on September 30, 2014
all it takes to "earn" that right is for promoters to keep booking you and people to keep buying tickets to your shows.
Sure, in a practical sense this is true. And if it's working for you or Lauryn Hill or whoever, then fine. It's no skin off my nose. But the attitude behind it is baldly "whatever the market will bear, goes."
I think we can all agree that the ideal perfomance-going experience lies at some point between total flake and rote repetition. Another thousand comments and we might nail down every gradation between the two.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:43 AM on September 30, 2014
Sure, in a practical sense this is true. And if it's working for you or Lauryn Hill or whoever, then fine. It's no skin off my nose. But the attitude behind it is baldly "whatever the market will bear, goes."
I think we can all agree that the ideal perfomance-going experience lies at some point between total flake and rote repetition. Another thousand comments and we might nail down every gradation between the two.
posted by octobersurprise at 8:43 AM on September 30, 2014
If said personality was white and male, would this conversation even be happening?
Uh, George "No-Show" Jones? There really is no need to play the victimization card here.
posted by the sobsister at 8:44 AM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Uh, George "No-Show" Jones? There really is no need to play the victimization card here.
posted by the sobsister at 8:44 AM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
octobersurprise: I think we can all agree that the ideal perfomance-going experience lies at some point between total flake and rote repetition. Another thousand comments and we might nail down every gradation between the two.
No, I don't agree with this, because it conflates the variance of the artist's setlist with whether they're showing up on time. These are orthogonal.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:45 AM on September 30, 2014
No, I don't agree with this, because it conflates the variance of the artist's setlist with whether they're showing up on time. These are orthogonal.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:45 AM on September 30, 2014
Yeah, I guess if I show up at a Gallagher performance without a plastic tarp, I don't have any right to complain about walking away covered in watermelon. Then again, if I show up at a Gallagher performance at all, I have far bigger problems than being covered in watermelon.
posted by malocchio at 8:45 AM on September 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
posted by malocchio at 8:45 AM on September 30, 2014 [6 favorites]
it conflates the variance of the artist's setlist with whether they're showing up on time.
That's sort of what I meant by "total flake."
posted by octobersurprise at 8:48 AM on September 30, 2014
That's sort of what I meant by "total flake."
posted by octobersurprise at 8:48 AM on September 30, 2014
if you're spending that amount of money because you know the hits from 20 years ago and know nothing of the artist today, i have no sympathy for you when you get something other than what you thought you were paying for.
What is there to know? If she had gone over to giving spoken word recitals or if she had gone deep into playing the berimbau or if she had taken to Karen Finley-style performance art, I too would have little sympathy for someone who bought tickets to her show expecting to hear "Doo Wop (That Thing)." But given what basis her customers have for making the decision to attend her concerts, I have plenty of sympathy for those who show up expecting her to show up on time and perform a coherent set of music (bonus points if it's in the only musical style they have any basis to expect out of her).
posted by slkinsey at 8:53 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
What is there to know? If she had gone over to giving spoken word recitals or if she had gone deep into playing the berimbau or if she had taken to Karen Finley-style performance art, I too would have little sympathy for someone who bought tickets to her show expecting to hear "Doo Wop (That Thing)." But given what basis her customers have for making the decision to attend her concerts, I have plenty of sympathy for those who show up expecting her to show up on time and perform a coherent set of music (bonus points if it's in the only musical style they have any basis to expect out of her).
posted by slkinsey at 8:53 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
There really is no need to play the victimization card here.
this is a gross way to make your point. while i agree that plenty of white men are castigated for this, it is difficult to separate critiques of lauryn hill from her color or gender since so much of how she interacts with her music, her fame, her record labels, and her audience involve those things. to a gigantic group she had a couple good songs some years ago and was pretty and smiling and the right kind of boho chic. the reality of her is a lot less rounded off.
posted by nadawi at 8:53 AM on September 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
this is a gross way to make your point. while i agree that plenty of white men are castigated for this, it is difficult to separate critiques of lauryn hill from her color or gender since so much of how she interacts with her music, her fame, her record labels, and her audience involve those things. to a gigantic group she had a couple good songs some years ago and was pretty and smiling and the right kind of boho chic. the reality of her is a lot less rounded off.
posted by nadawi at 8:53 AM on September 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
octobersurprise: That's sort of what I meant by "total flake."
Yes, but the way you set it up reads like it's a spectrum between two poles, when in reality, one can be on time but also have a very diverse concert experience, and one can also be a flake and play the same dozen songs. Others are making similar arguments, and it's really frustrating, because it's uncontroversial to say that artists should be able to play whatever songs they like, but far more controversial to say they should be able to keep their audience waiting as long as they feel like it.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:53 AM on September 30, 2014
Yes, but the way you set it up reads like it's a spectrum between two poles, when in reality, one can be on time but also have a very diverse concert experience, and one can also be a flake and play the same dozen songs. Others are making similar arguments, and it's really frustrating, because it's uncontroversial to say that artists should be able to play whatever songs they like, but far more controversial to say they should be able to keep their audience waiting as long as they feel like it.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:53 AM on September 30, 2014
Hostility toward the audience is not art, sorry.
It can be part of the art, but you have to be a really good musical artist to pull it off. Lauryn Hill may be beloved to many, but she's no Miles Davis.
posted by slkinsey at 8:55 AM on September 30, 2014
It can be part of the art, but you have to be a really good musical artist to pull it off. Lauryn Hill may be beloved to many, but she's no Miles Davis.
posted by slkinsey at 8:55 AM on September 30, 2014
slkinsey: It can be part of the art, but you have to be a really good musical artist to pull it off. Lauryn Hill may be beloved to many, but she's no Miles Davis.
This just reads like "your favorite asshole sucks." An asshole is an asshole either way.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:57 AM on September 30, 2014
This just reads like "your favorite asshole sucks." An asshole is an asshole either way.
posted by tonycpsu at 8:57 AM on September 30, 2014
I'm not claiming any expertise here, but Wikipedia describes Hill as having been rather erratic in many of her public appearances in recent years. This doesn't seem to be uncommon for celebrities and I don't think we do people favors by lauding "artistes" who owe nothing to nobody. If someone passes out on stage, or shows up several hours late, or can't even make the show at all, this person probably has a problem, not just a remarkably creative temperament that mere mortals cannot understand. Hill spent a few months in prison for tax evasion; in court she said ""I am a child of former slaves who had a system imposed on them. I had an economic system imposed on me," which I guess we could treat as revealing her artistic sensitivity to the atrocities of western civilization... or as revealing some mental health issues.
posted by leopard at 8:58 AM on September 30, 2014
posted by leopard at 8:58 AM on September 30, 2014
Yes, but the way you set it up reads like it's a spectrum between two poles, when in reality, one can be on time but also have a very diverse concert experience
Ah. Pardon my metaphor. I failed to grasp that the distance between flakery and tired repetition can be plotted on a XYZ axis as well.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:00 AM on September 30, 2014
Ah. Pardon my metaphor. I failed to grasp that the distance between flakery and tired repetition can be plotted on a XYZ axis as well.
posted by octobersurprise at 9:00 AM on September 30, 2014
>>It can be part of the art, but you have to be a really good musical artist to pull it off. Lauryn Hill may be beloved to many, but she's no Miles Davis.
This just reads like "your favorite asshole sucks." An asshole is an asshole either way.
Miles Davis was known, for a time, as one who played for himself and the other musicians playing with him, and not for the audience. This manifested itself in concerts where he would play half-turned-back to the other players rather than facing the room, might leave the stage when he wasn't playing, and didn't particularly address the audience one way or the other. This can be viewed as a kind of "hostility to the audience." But, on the other hand, Miles showed up and played. He is also viewed as one of the most influential jazz musicians of all time, and probably produced more "important" albums than any other artist in the genre. Lauryn Hill can't claim to approach a similar level of influence or importance in her genre, but frankly even if she weren't particularly friendly or audience-focused in her performances, it wouldn't really matter so long as she showed up on time and delivered the goods.
posted by slkinsey at 9:09 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
This just reads like "your favorite asshole sucks." An asshole is an asshole either way.
Miles Davis was known, for a time, as one who played for himself and the other musicians playing with him, and not for the audience. This manifested itself in concerts where he would play half-turned-back to the other players rather than facing the room, might leave the stage when he wasn't playing, and didn't particularly address the audience one way or the other. This can be viewed as a kind of "hostility to the audience." But, on the other hand, Miles showed up and played. He is also viewed as one of the most influential jazz musicians of all time, and probably produced more "important" albums than any other artist in the genre. Lauryn Hill can't claim to approach a similar level of influence or importance in her genre, but frankly even if she weren't particularly friendly or audience-focused in her performances, it wouldn't really matter so long as she showed up on time and delivered the goods.
posted by slkinsey at 9:09 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
this is a gross way to make your point. while i agree that plenty of white men are castigated for this, it is difficult to separate critiques of lauryn hill from her color or gender since so much of how she interacts with her music, her fame, her record labels, and her audience involve those things.
This may or may not be the case. My point was that unreliability, lateness and similar shows of disrespect towards one's fans and business partners is, as has been generously pointed out upthread, as much a white male problem as any other group's, if not more so.
In this instance, to draw a line between criticism of Hill's lack of professionalism and perceived race/gender critiques seems a stretch. Yes, she may have received criticism on those grounds in the past--I don't follow her career--but that does not mean any present or future criticism of her has, perforce, to be rooted in race/gender issues.
posted by the sobsister at 9:33 AM on September 30, 2014
This may or may not be the case. My point was that unreliability, lateness and similar shows of disrespect towards one's fans and business partners is, as has been generously pointed out upthread, as much a white male problem as any other group's, if not more so.
In this instance, to draw a line between criticism of Hill's lack of professionalism and perceived race/gender critiques seems a stretch. Yes, she may have received criticism on those grounds in the past--I don't follow her career--but that does not mean any present or future criticism of her has, perforce, to be rooted in race/gender issues.
posted by the sobsister at 9:33 AM on September 30, 2014
it was specifically the "victimization card" thing that i was objecting to. your point is better and less offensive when you spell it out.
posted by nadawi at 9:43 AM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 9:43 AM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Sorry. My shorthand response to your comment was inelegant and incomplete.
posted by the sobsister at 9:53 AM on September 30, 2014
posted by the sobsister at 9:53 AM on September 30, 2014
The more I go over the two articles, the more it becomes apparent that the "defense" doesn't particularly speak to the points raised in the "attack."
Both seem to be in complete agreement that they love her artistic output dating to the late 1990s and hold it as important work in the genre.
Schumacher raises some of the performance issues she has had, such as canceling shows, coming on stage hours late and passing out. In reply, Greene argues that audiences "are paying for [Lauryn Hill] to do what she wants" and describes a performance Hill gave at Brooklyn Bowl. That's all good and well, but it says nothing to the points raised by Schumacher, who I'm sure would have been ecstatic to have attended the Brooklyn Bowl concert.
Schumacher also devotes a fair amount of space to the theme of promise unfulfilled and the fact that Lauryn Hill never followed up her output from the late 1990s with a body of musical work at a similar level -- or really, with anything that could be called a body of work at all -- and he laments the fact that she is no longer a relevant musical artist. This remains largely unchallenged by Greene in any meaningful way other than to say that her real fans accept Hill just as she is, and that her stature as a great artist isn't diminished due to a lack of productivity.
posted by slkinsey at 9:57 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Both seem to be in complete agreement that they love her artistic output dating to the late 1990s and hold it as important work in the genre.
Schumacher raises some of the performance issues she has had, such as canceling shows, coming on stage hours late and passing out. In reply, Greene argues that audiences "are paying for [Lauryn Hill] to do what she wants" and describes a performance Hill gave at Brooklyn Bowl. That's all good and well, but it says nothing to the points raised by Schumacher, who I'm sure would have been ecstatic to have attended the Brooklyn Bowl concert.
Schumacher also devotes a fair amount of space to the theme of promise unfulfilled and the fact that Lauryn Hill never followed up her output from the late 1990s with a body of musical work at a similar level -- or really, with anything that could be called a body of work at all -- and he laments the fact that she is no longer a relevant musical artist. This remains largely unchallenged by Greene in any meaningful way other than to say that her real fans accept Hill just as she is, and that her stature as a great artist isn't diminished due to a lack of productivity.
posted by slkinsey at 9:57 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Some people go on to write Les Chemins de la Liberté. For others, it's Bouvard et Pécuchet.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 10:05 AM on September 30, 2014
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 10:05 AM on September 30, 2014
slkinsey: Miles Davis was known, for a time, as one who played for himself and the other musicians playing with him, and not for the audience.
I'm aware of the history there, but I stand by my statement. Showing contempt for people who show up to see you play isn't something I'm okay with, regardless of how much I enjoy the music. If you're just playing for the other musicians, then don't invite a crowd to see you play.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:06 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm aware of the history there, but I stand by my statement. Showing contempt for people who show up to see you play isn't something I'm okay with, regardless of how much I enjoy the music. If you're just playing for the other musicians, then don't invite a crowd to see you play.
posted by tonycpsu at 10:06 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Hostility toward the audience is not art, sorry.
Well, it was Andy Kaufman's art.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:20 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Well, it was Andy Kaufman's art.
posted by roomthreeseventeen at 10:20 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Well, it was Andy Kaufman's art.
He took his whole audience out for milk and cookies. I don't know how much more love you want.
posted by lumpenprole at 11:08 AM on September 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
He took his whole audience out for milk and cookies. I don't know how much more love you want.
posted by lumpenprole at 11:08 AM on September 30, 2014 [4 favorites]
Miles Davis or Bob Dylan doing shitty things at a live show is just as shitty as Lauryn Hill or, hell, my neighbor's hypothetical garage band doing shitty things at a live show.
There's a difference between live performance and recorded output, and a part of doing it live is, you've got to do it live. Usually at a specific date and time, and for an audience that paid in advance to see you do it.
Plenty of film stars avoid the stage because they either have no interest or feel that their craft is not translatable. That's okay, it's two separate mediums altogether. Likewise, somebody who does great studio work might be a terrible fucking performer, and you can acknowledge both at once without either having to inform your opinions on the other.
posted by rorgy at 3:28 PM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
There's a difference between live performance and recorded output, and a part of doing it live is, you've got to do it live. Usually at a specific date and time, and for an audience that paid in advance to see you do it.
Plenty of film stars avoid the stage because they either have no interest or feel that their craft is not translatable. That's okay, it's two separate mediums altogether. Likewise, somebody who does great studio work might be a terrible fucking performer, and you can acknowledge both at once without either having to inform your opinions on the other.
posted by rorgy at 3:28 PM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
It's one thing to be an unpredictable live performer– Dylan is sometimes dreadful, sometimes amazing. It's another thing to be a great live performer who plays great music with a bad attitude, like Davis. It's something else entirely to just not show up, or show up several hours late, or show up hours late so fucked up you can't actually play. Kwell seems to be wanting to treat her as the first or second category, when she's really in the third.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 6:55 PM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 6:55 PM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yeah, the comparison with Kaufman really isn't apt. Kaufman often went way out of his way to subvert his audience's expectations, but he didn't show contempt for them--in fact, he trusted them to eventually get what he was really doing, even if that was on some abstract level that wasn't immediately gratifying. There's quite a bit of difference between that, or even what Miles Davis or Bob Dylan do/did, and You're Not The Boss Of Me, DadPeople Who Paid $88 A Head.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:36 PM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:36 PM on September 30, 2014 [2 favorites]
Stanley Crouch described an experience in an LA jazz club filled with pimps, hustlers, street life, etc. Not the kind who generally took being ordered around. But when Miles Davis came on stage to play, they all shut up. Because they knew he would walk off stage and leave if they weren't there to pay attention. And then everybody loses out bc of the ass who didn't shut up.
When Miles was told he wouldn't get paid, his response was "Im not broke." But even on the nights he walked off w/out a paycheck, he professionaled-up and got to the gig on time.
Mile's was marketed as the "distant, emotionally unavailable jazz artist". But it was his artistic output they were marketing, not his attitude.
Art for art's sake is a noble sentiment, but it doesn't put food on the table, pay back taxes, etc. And that means someone has to pay the artist currency for their art. "Singing for your supper" is a cliche for a reason. Artists used to need a rich patron or else set up a stool in the corner of the pub and get a plate afterwards. With the emergence of a middle class that can afford buying things like music and art, the sole patron isn't such a need anymore. Today, one needs an audience.
And heaping disrespect and contempt one's audience is a path one can choose.
But when people stop calling for tunes, the piper doesn't get paid.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:18 AM on October 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
When Miles was told he wouldn't get paid, his response was "Im not broke." But even on the nights he walked off w/out a paycheck, he professionaled-up and got to the gig on time.
Mile's was marketed as the "distant, emotionally unavailable jazz artist". But it was his artistic output they were marketing, not his attitude.
Art for art's sake is a noble sentiment, but it doesn't put food on the table, pay back taxes, etc. And that means someone has to pay the artist currency for their art. "Singing for your supper" is a cliche for a reason. Artists used to need a rich patron or else set up a stool in the corner of the pub and get a plate afterwards. With the emergence of a middle class that can afford buying things like music and art, the sole patron isn't such a need anymore. Today, one needs an audience.
And heaping disrespect and contempt one's audience is a path one can choose.
But when people stop calling for tunes, the piper doesn't get paid.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:18 AM on October 2, 2014 [1 favorite]
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