Teaching Police "Witching" to Find Corpses
March 27, 2022 4:07 PM Subscribe
At the National Forensic Academy, crime scene investigators learn to dowse for the dead, though it’s not backed by science. Experts are alarmed. (Content warning for some discussion of finding dead bodies.)
this sounds like the premise of a cheap folk horror show that was on the CW
posted by Countess Elena at 4:31 PM on March 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by Countess Elena at 4:31 PM on March 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
This whole scenario is silly, but calling it "Witching" seems like pure click-bait.
posted by nixxon at 5:04 PM on March 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by nixxon at 5:04 PM on March 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
Eh, along with dowsing, it’s a name for it that’s been used for a long time. Doesn’t make it work any better, but it’s one thing it’s called.
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:15 PM on March 27, 2022 [11 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:15 PM on March 27, 2022 [11 favorites]
Of course it’s bunkum but I was a bit puzzled by the article’s questions about its admissibility in court. As they state, either they find a body or they don’t. The most nefarious possibility is that they already know the body’s location but want to hide that fact for some reason.
But, yeah, when people pay for this service and get nothing but disappointment that seems like a pretty sketchy business to be in.
posted by sjswitzer at 5:21 PM on March 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
But, yeah, when people pay for this service and get nothing but disappointment that seems like a pretty sketchy business to be in.
posted by sjswitzer at 5:21 PM on March 27, 2022 [4 favorites]
"Witching" is a real name for the practice. Calling it "witching" instead of "dowsing" is probably a conscious choice, but it's one I think is smart. It emphasizes that it's an occult belief, not science.
It would make sense to call it clickbait if it was misrepresenting or exaggerating the problem to get people to click, but no, it's entirely accurate.
The most nefarious possibility is that they already know the body’s location but want to hide that fact for some reason.
I think this is just a lack of imagination. The article already has examples of this guy testifying that a body was in a car trunk based on pseudoscience, and if it he had been believed the defendant could have been convicted.
Maybe we can't imagine right now how dowsing for bodies could be used against someone unjustly, but that doesn't mean it can never happen. And even if it never does, it's still worrying because it's a symptom of just how deep the problem with pseudoscience in the justice system goes. Someone as obviously fraudulent as Vass should never be allowed anywhere near forensics students or a courtroom; the fact that he is tells you that there's no meaningful system for ensuring that forensics "experts" are actually using science-backed techniques.
Probably most of us here already knew that, but this example is so bad and so ridiculous it shows the degree of the problem.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:39 PM on March 27, 2022 [48 favorites]
It would make sense to call it clickbait if it was misrepresenting or exaggerating the problem to get people to click, but no, it's entirely accurate.
The most nefarious possibility is that they already know the body’s location but want to hide that fact for some reason.
I think this is just a lack of imagination. The article already has examples of this guy testifying that a body was in a car trunk based on pseudoscience, and if it he had been believed the defendant could have been convicted.
Maybe we can't imagine right now how dowsing for bodies could be used against someone unjustly, but that doesn't mean it can never happen. And even if it never does, it's still worrying because it's a symptom of just how deep the problem with pseudoscience in the justice system goes. Someone as obviously fraudulent as Vass should never be allowed anywhere near forensics students or a courtroom; the fact that he is tells you that there's no meaningful system for ensuring that forensics "experts" are actually using science-backed techniques.
Probably most of us here already knew that, but this example is so bad and so ridiculous it shows the degree of the problem.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 5:39 PM on March 27, 2022 [48 favorites]
How long before somebody convinces himself that he can dowse for bodies, 'cause he finds some bodies, and then convinces himself he can dowse for where a body used to be, because, energy, vibrations, blah blah blah.
posted by BrashTech at 5:48 PM on March 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by BrashTech at 5:48 PM on March 27, 2022 [6 favorites]
So apparently, not only are all cops bastards, they are also all gullible idiots.
posted by aramaic at 5:55 PM on March 27, 2022 [25 favorites]
posted by aramaic at 5:55 PM on March 27, 2022 [25 favorites]
If you can make a man commit atrocities you can make him believe absurdities?
posted by clew at 5:57 PM on March 27, 2022 [25 favorites]
posted by clew at 5:57 PM on March 27, 2022 [25 favorites]
I was sort of surprised by this initially, but on reflection I'm not sure why. It's no more baseless bullshit than lie detectors are. Law enforcement have always loved pseudoscience, and they've always used psychics, and apparently they still all believe in widespread satanic cult activity. Why not magic corpse-findy sticks?
posted by BlueNorther at 6:02 PM on March 27, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by BlueNorther at 6:02 PM on March 27, 2022 [16 favorites]
either they find a body or they don’t. The most nefarious possibility is that they already know the body’s location but want to hide that fact for some reason.
Since they claim they can do this from the street and find a body in someone's backyard, I can think of lots of other problems with this, beyond just the mockery of science and justice.
* * *
If you put a person’s fingernail clippings inside the device, he says, it amplifies their frequency and beams it out to the environment, similar to a radar gun. If the beam (which can travel as far as 75 miles, he says) finds a like object, such as gold, that object becomes “excited” and re-radiates a signal back, which then gets picked up by the device’s antennae.The agents are flabbergasted.
One student asks, “Do you mean if you have a missing child, you can take that child’s DNA and put it in that and go to work?”
“Yeah, absolutely,” Vass says. “It doesn’t take long to find them.” [. . .] “I’m not selling them right now,” Vass says. “I’m just kind of assisting law enforcement when needed.” He says the device isn’t for sale because he’s concerned about national security issues. “I can tell you what room the president’s in in the White House,” he says. “ I can tell you which house has gold in it.”
My lord. Dowsing is only one of his many forays into original methods. The most scientific contribution he made--detecting volatile organics in the trunk of a car--was tossed because (I assume) it being real science made it easy to pinpoint the flaws.
I'm sure he believes this stuff, at least a bit. He's like the Music Man, if Harold Hill's fantasy was being a cop instead of playing music.
posted by mark k at 6:05 PM on March 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
Since they claim they can do this from the street and find a body in someone's backyard, I can think of lots of other problems with this, beyond just the mockery of science and justice.
* * *
If you put a person’s fingernail clippings inside the device, he says, it amplifies their frequency and beams it out to the environment, similar to a radar gun. If the beam (which can travel as far as 75 miles, he says) finds a like object, such as gold, that object becomes “excited” and re-radiates a signal back, which then gets picked up by the device’s antennae.The agents are flabbergasted.
One student asks, “Do you mean if you have a missing child, you can take that child’s DNA and put it in that and go to work?”
“Yeah, absolutely,” Vass says. “It doesn’t take long to find them.” [. . .] “I’m not selling them right now,” Vass says. “I’m just kind of assisting law enforcement when needed.” He says the device isn’t for sale because he’s concerned about national security issues. “I can tell you what room the president’s in in the White House,” he says. “ I can tell you which house has gold in it.”
My lord. Dowsing is only one of his many forays into original methods. The most scientific contribution he made--detecting volatile organics in the trunk of a car--was tossed because (I assume) it being real science made it easy to pinpoint the flaws.
I'm sure he believes this stuff, at least a bit. He's like the Music Man, if Harold Hill's fantasy was being a cop instead of playing music.
posted by mark k at 6:05 PM on March 27, 2022 [15 favorites]
Could this be used to justify an otherwise unlawful search?
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 6:41 PM on March 27, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 6:41 PM on March 27, 2022 [22 favorites]
This is what they're spending the money on that they cry that they can't live without. This is why people question why their budgets need to eat up the budget of every other government function. So they can take witchcraft training.
posted by bleep at 6:48 PM on March 27, 2022 [19 favorites]
posted by bleep at 6:48 PM on March 27, 2022 [19 favorites]
Some people in here are going to lose their minds when they find out how much science there is backing up fingerprints.
posted by mhoye at 7:25 PM on March 27, 2022 [17 favorites]
posted by mhoye at 7:25 PM on March 27, 2022 [17 favorites]
Forensics in general is antithetical to scientific methods because it almost always is working backwards, finding evidence to support an existing thesis vs using information to form a thesis. Also there's no need for peer review or even proving repeatability of results from a double blind system. All you need to do is convince a judge and jury that your hired gun knows what they're talking about. Why wouldn't they? They've testified in dozens of cases!
posted by Ferreous at 7:25 PM on March 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by Ferreous at 7:25 PM on March 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
I have always been boggled by the idea of dowsing and that I guess, for some people, it works to look for water? I have no knack with it myself. But...CORPSES?!
Another student asks why the rods don’t detect the people sitting in the front row, since they’re made of bone.“Wonderful question,” Vass says. “The electric field you’re generating from your bone is dissipating through the water and moisture in your skin, so it ends up being so weak — the rods won’t detect you if you are alive. You have to be about two to three hours dead before this will work.”
Whaaaaaaaaaat?
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:47 PM on March 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
Another student asks why the rods don’t detect the people sitting in the front row, since they’re made of bone.“Wonderful question,” Vass says. “The electric field you’re generating from your bone is dissipating through the water and moisture in your skin, so it ends up being so weak — the rods won’t detect you if you are alive. You have to be about two to three hours dead before this will work.”
Whaaaaaaaaaat?
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:47 PM on March 27, 2022 [8 favorites]
tamarisk, I don’t have much patience left these days for the 'eponhysterical' trope on Metafilter, but considering that the introduced tamarisk tree is blamed for finding, reaching down to, and drying up watercourses in Death Valley where no one in their right mind could have thought there was water to begin with, may I congratulate you for taking it to a whole new level with a rant about dowsing for water?
posted by jamjam at 8:05 PM on March 27, 2022 [16 favorites]
posted by jamjam at 8:05 PM on March 27, 2022 [16 favorites]
Some people in here are going to lose their minds when they find out how much science there is backing up fingerprints.
So far no one in this thread has expressed any surprise or faith in forensic science, so why do you say that?
for some people, it works to look for water?
I mean, it doesn't. But many people believe it does, just like many people believe in astrology, prayer, psychics, or ridding "toxins" from the body through juice cleanses. I suppose we could have a very serious conversation about how much respect we should give to each of these religious/occult beliefs and in what circumstances, but certainly none of them have any place in criminal investigations or as evidence in court.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:05 PM on March 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
So far no one in this thread has expressed any surprise or faith in forensic science, so why do you say that?
for some people, it works to look for water?
I mean, it doesn't. But many people believe it does, just like many people believe in astrology, prayer, psychics, or ridding "toxins" from the body through juice cleanses. I suppose we could have a very serious conversation about how much respect we should give to each of these religious/occult beliefs and in what circumstances, but certainly none of them have any place in criminal investigations or as evidence in court.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 8:05 PM on March 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
Well, look at it this way. The more time cops spend waving sticks around looking for dead bodies, the less time they have for other… less savory habits.
posted by Naberius at 8:09 PM on March 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Naberius at 8:09 PM on March 27, 2022 [7 favorites]
If I had any doubts that it is a con, they evaporated when he started spouting pseudoscientific bullshit about piezoelectricity and quantum resonance.
My first thought before starting to read the article was that at least if you waste time on a bullshit method that doesn't work looking to find a body, the worst case scenario is that you fail to find a body, rather than produce fabricated evidence that will be used to convict an innocent person. But then when I discovered that he's also claiming he can "scan" for bones at a distance, without even entering someone's property, it's clear that the point of that is to manufacture probable cause to obtain a search warrant. If it hasn't been done already, I'm sure it's a matter of time before one of his "students" tries it. So yes, not only is it a con, it's a con that will deprive people of their civil rights. And I'm sure it is indeed only a matter of time, as BrashTech suggests, before someone claims that dowsing can produce evidence without actually even discovering physical evidence.
His "quantum resonance" scam device reminds me a lot of the "bomb detectors" that some con artist sold to the US military back in the early 2000s, which if I recall was also supposedly based somehow on dowsing, which when investigated turned out to be a fancy-looking chassis with nothing inside it. I feel like at a certain point, the patent office needs to have a similar rule for dowsing devices as it has for perpetual motion machines.
I don't think it's even worth speculating about whether people doing this sort of thing believe their own con. It's still a con, and they should be treated as con artists regardless of whether they've managed to convince themselves. If they do convince themselves, that's just another strategy for them to seem more convincing when they're selling the con. The people who do this sort of thing do not have the same relationship with the idea of "truth" that most of us do.
posted by biogeo at 8:37 PM on March 27, 2022 [24 favorites]
My first thought before starting to read the article was that at least if you waste time on a bullshit method that doesn't work looking to find a body, the worst case scenario is that you fail to find a body, rather than produce fabricated evidence that will be used to convict an innocent person. But then when I discovered that he's also claiming he can "scan" for bones at a distance, without even entering someone's property, it's clear that the point of that is to manufacture probable cause to obtain a search warrant. If it hasn't been done already, I'm sure it's a matter of time before one of his "students" tries it. So yes, not only is it a con, it's a con that will deprive people of their civil rights. And I'm sure it is indeed only a matter of time, as BrashTech suggests, before someone claims that dowsing can produce evidence without actually even discovering physical evidence.
His "quantum resonance" scam device reminds me a lot of the "bomb detectors" that some con artist sold to the US military back in the early 2000s, which if I recall was also supposedly based somehow on dowsing, which when investigated turned out to be a fancy-looking chassis with nothing inside it. I feel like at a certain point, the patent office needs to have a similar rule for dowsing devices as it has for perpetual motion machines.
I'm sure he believes this stuff, at least a bit.
I don't think it's even worth speculating about whether people doing this sort of thing believe their own con. It's still a con, and they should be treated as con artists regardless of whether they've managed to convince themselves. If they do convince themselves, that's just another strategy for them to seem more convincing when they're selling the con. The people who do this sort of thing do not have the same relationship with the idea of "truth" that most of us do.
posted by biogeo at 8:37 PM on March 27, 2022 [24 favorites]
So, how will this mesh with the beliefs of those in the overlapping part of the Venn diagram of evangelical right wing Christians who fear and hate anything with the merest whiff of the occult, and those people who rabidly support the police?
posted by Saxon Kane at 8:49 PM on March 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Saxon Kane at 8:49 PM on March 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
His "quantum resonance" scam device reminds me a lot of the "bomb detectors" that some con artist sold to the US military back in the early 2000s, which if I recall was also supposedly based somehow on dowsing, which when investigated turned out to be a fancy-looking chassis with nothing inside it.
The ADE 651 was sold to the Iraqi military, with the US military screaming the whole time that it was nonsense, and the US government eventually convicting and jailing the creator for fraud.
posted by mr_roboto at 8:55 PM on March 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
The ADE 651 was sold to the Iraqi military, with the US military screaming the whole time that it was nonsense, and the US government eventually convicting and jailing the creator for fraud.
posted by mr_roboto at 8:55 PM on March 27, 2022 [14 favorites]
Thanks for the correction and elaboration! I either misunderstood the story at the time, or misremembered it.
posted by biogeo at 9:04 PM on March 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 9:04 PM on March 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
Law enforcement have always loved pseudoscience, and they've always used psychics
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's my understanding that the police do *not* use psychics -- that's just a TV trope.
posted by orange swan at 9:45 PM on March 27, 2022
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's my understanding that the police do *not* use psychics -- that's just a TV trope.
posted by orange swan at 9:45 PM on March 27, 2022
This fellow has clearly rounded the bend with device, etc. But for the general topic of dowsing...
I have a friend who is a hard-core skeptic. If something can't be measured objectively by a machine then its existence is questionable. However he also moonlights as a stage performer and is always aware (as are most performers) of the energy of the crowd.
What we've come to over the years is that the feeling of energy is an amalgamation of thousands of small sights, sounds, smells, etc. Much as our nervous system combines our nostrils and tongue to give a sense of taste, our minds bundle up a ton of inputs and present it as energy.
It would not surprise me in the least if an experienced dowser could find water in the ground based on a similar phenomenon. Topology and plant life hold a ton of clues, and even if a person has wrapped it in mystical beliefs they could be successful.
What's interesting to me is how this connects to machine learning. If I wanted to train a machine on how to find water I would feed it pictures of the areas around wells. More pragmatically this has already been done for satellite pictures of oil rich areas.
However, one of the more interesting characteristics of machine learning is that you produce machines that are capable of using thousands of facts to reach a conclusion, but deciphering the machine itself -- trying to figure out how it reaches a conclusion -- is practically impossible. We can use it to answer a terribly complex problem without knowing how we're doing it. Sound familiar?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:53 PM on March 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
I have a friend who is a hard-core skeptic. If something can't be measured objectively by a machine then its existence is questionable. However he also moonlights as a stage performer and is always aware (as are most performers) of the energy of the crowd.
What we've come to over the years is that the feeling of energy is an amalgamation of thousands of small sights, sounds, smells, etc. Much as our nervous system combines our nostrils and tongue to give a sense of taste, our minds bundle up a ton of inputs and present it as energy.
It would not surprise me in the least if an experienced dowser could find water in the ground based on a similar phenomenon. Topology and plant life hold a ton of clues, and even if a person has wrapped it in mystical beliefs they could be successful.
What's interesting to me is how this connects to machine learning. If I wanted to train a machine on how to find water I would feed it pictures of the areas around wells. More pragmatically this has already been done for satellite pictures of oil rich areas.
However, one of the more interesting characteristics of machine learning is that you produce machines that are capable of using thousands of facts to reach a conclusion, but deciphering the machine itself -- trying to figure out how it reaches a conclusion -- is practically impossible. We can use it to answer a terribly complex problem without knowing how we're doing it. Sound familiar?
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 9:53 PM on March 27, 2022 [12 favorites]
it's my understanding that the police do *not* use psychics
As a whole? No. Individual departments? Absolutely.
posted by corb at 9:54 PM on March 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
As a whole? No. Individual departments? Absolutely.
posted by corb at 9:54 PM on March 27, 2022 [9 favorites]
It would not surprise me in the least if an experienced dowser could find water in the ground based on a similar phenomenon. Topology and plant life hold a ton of clues, and even if a person has wrapped it in mystical beliefs they could be successful.
So dowsing rods, then, are like golf clubs: oddly shaped bits of metal designed to justify support for a nice walk in the great outdoors to bean counters whose grasp of the bleedin' obvious has been thoroughly trained out of them by excessive exposure to bullshit paperwork.
posted by flabdablet at 12:29 AM on March 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
So dowsing rods, then, are like golf clubs: oddly shaped bits of metal designed to justify support for a nice walk in the great outdoors to bean counters whose grasp of the bleedin' obvious has been thoroughly trained out of them by excessive exposure to bullshit paperwork.
posted by flabdablet at 12:29 AM on March 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
I have a friend who is a hard-core skeptic. If something can't be measured objectively by a machine then its existence is questionable.
I question his hard-core skepticism.
posted by flabdablet at 12:30 AM on March 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
I question his hard-core skepticism.
posted by flabdablet at 12:30 AM on March 28, 2022 [11 favorites]
The most nefarious possibility is that they already know the body’s location but want to hide that fact for some reason.
I've long believed that this is the main reason they have sniffer dogs at border crossings. The customs people will work off tips, then they will bring the dog along and state "yeah, the dog totally sniffed out the package of drugs, triple-wrapped and welded into the petrol-filled tank", thus protecting their source.
I will never get this suspicion confirmed or denied, though.
posted by Harald74 at 1:39 AM on March 28, 2022 [9 favorites]
I've long believed that this is the main reason they have sniffer dogs at border crossings. The customs people will work off tips, then they will bring the dog along and state "yeah, the dog totally sniffed out the package of drugs, triple-wrapped and welded into the petrol-filled tank", thus protecting their source.
I will never get this suspicion confirmed or denied, though.
posted by Harald74 at 1:39 AM on March 28, 2022 [9 favorites]
I question his hard-core skepticism.
More of a voyeur empiricism, really
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 1:45 AM on March 28, 2022
More of a voyeur empiricism, really
posted by Freelance Demiurge at 1:45 AM on March 28, 2022
Law enforcement have always loved pseudoscience, and they've always used psychics
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's my understanding that the police do *not* use psychics -- that's just a TV trope.
Unfortunately, they really do, quite often. As corb says, I don't think it's, like, official policy, but it does happen not infrequently.
posted by BlueNorther at 2:04 AM on March 28, 2022
Correct me if I'm wrong here, but it's my understanding that the police do *not* use psychics -- that's just a TV trope.
Unfortunately, they really do, quite often. As corb says, I don't think it's, like, official policy, but it does happen not infrequently.
posted by BlueNorther at 2:04 AM on March 28, 2022
Tried dowsing once, couldn’t stick with it.
posted by BlunderingArtist at 2:40 AM on March 28, 2022 [22 favorites]
posted by BlunderingArtist at 2:40 AM on March 28, 2022 [22 favorites]
oh look another "I'll take human conciousness was a terrible mistake for 500, alex" moment
posted by lalochezia at 3:21 AM on March 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by lalochezia at 3:21 AM on March 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
Tried dowsing a second time, came up dry.
posted by Paul Slade at 4:26 AM on March 28, 2022 [7 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 4:26 AM on March 28, 2022 [7 favorites]
Tried dowsing a third time, got paid a motza to "discover" a bunch of stuff that I already knew was there. Getting the hang of it now.
posted by flabdablet at 4:48 AM on March 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by flabdablet at 4:48 AM on March 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
So, one time we had a leak in our home's water pipes. Right were it came in to the house, before the meter. The plumber said they couldn't do a thing until the region's utility came out and shut off the water for the house at the street. Makes sense, the internal shut off valve is after the meter. The utility guy showed up rather promptly, but because the house was fairly old and the front yard had seen much changes over the decades, he had no idea where the street-side valve was buried.
Now, according to him, they usually have a magnetic sensor in their truck to find the valve/water pipe in such situations, but it seems someone had borrowed his and not returned it to his truck. So he had to call for another truck to come. Which was gonna take a few hours. A few hours I got to watch him through the front window wandering around our front yard with dowsing rods trying to find the valve.
It was amusing, and he never did find it until the other truck showed up with the detector. Then the valve was quickly found and the plumber had the leak fixed in no time. No harm done, I guess, but it did seem rather odd for a professional water systems tech to be relying on hooey.
posted by Clever User Name at 5:07 AM on March 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
Now, according to him, they usually have a magnetic sensor in their truck to find the valve/water pipe in such situations, but it seems someone had borrowed his and not returned it to his truck. So he had to call for another truck to come. Which was gonna take a few hours. A few hours I got to watch him through the front window wandering around our front yard with dowsing rods trying to find the valve.
It was amusing, and he never did find it until the other truck showed up with the detector. Then the valve was quickly found and the plumber had the leak fixed in no time. No harm done, I guess, but it did seem rather odd for a professional water systems tech to be relying on hooey.
posted by Clever User Name at 5:07 AM on March 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
How long before somebody convinces himself that he can dowse for bodies, 'cause he finds some bodies, and then convinces himself he can dowse for where a body used to be, because, energy, vibrations, blah blah blah.
posted by BrashTech at 5:48 PM on March 27
Time to get worried when they start saying they know where the dead bodies are going to be in the future...
posted by chavenet at 5:18 AM on March 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by BrashTech at 5:48 PM on March 27
Time to get worried when they start saying they know where the dead bodies are going to be in the future...
posted by chavenet at 5:18 AM on March 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
No harm done, I guess, but it did seem rather odd for a professional water systems tech to be relying on hooey.
I don't know of a profession that doesn't rely on woo in some dark corners. It's usually dressed up a bit more nicely than an honest-to-god stick, but it's absolutely there. I used to scream loudly into the void about it (mostly in the context of medicine or engineering where it can actually kill people), but I've mellowed in my middle age. The practice in question here is clearly bullshit, and a huge waste of taxpayer money, but so are most of the things modern police departments do. At least this particular brand of woo is less likely than most to result in the extrajudicial murder of Black people. (With a big ol' caveat about not allowing LEOs to use their "findings" to perform illegal searches, or present their crayon scribblings as evidence in criminal trials)
posted by Mayor West at 7:01 AM on March 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
I don't know of a profession that doesn't rely on woo in some dark corners. It's usually dressed up a bit more nicely than an honest-to-god stick, but it's absolutely there. I used to scream loudly into the void about it (mostly in the context of medicine or engineering where it can actually kill people), but I've mellowed in my middle age. The practice in question here is clearly bullshit, and a huge waste of taxpayer money, but so are most of the things modern police departments do. At least this particular brand of woo is less likely than most to result in the extrajudicial murder of Black people. (With a big ol' caveat about not allowing LEOs to use their "findings" to perform illegal searches, or present their crayon scribblings as evidence in criminal trials)
posted by Mayor West at 7:01 AM on March 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
Outside experts I spoke with ... say they’re alarmed that a leading training program is teaching the pseudoscience of witching.I feel that describing a superstition like dowsing / witching as "pseudoscience" is elevating it in a way it does not deserve. Tarot cards, horoscopes, and the use of mediums to talk to the dead aren't even "pseudoscience."
posted by Western Infidels at 7:10 AM on March 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
This is an interesting article about Angela Gallop, a forensic scientist. It suggests another reason why dousing and psychics appeal to the cops: they're cheap.
posted by SPrintF at 7:17 AM on March 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 7:17 AM on March 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
it's my understanding that the police do *not* use psychics
They probably started doing it after seeing cops on tv use them. Similar to how soldiers used torture techniques they saw on the tv show 24:
> If 24 didn’t strike the U.S. torture match, it was undoubtedly an accelerant and a considerable one at that. Jack Bauer was very popular and widely watched by the armed forces in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Guantanamo. “The military loves our show,” Joel Surnow bragged to The New Yorker’s Jane Mayer during the middle of the sixth season, showing the reporter the American flag that once flew over Baghdad sent to him by soldiers there who passed around a boxed set of Jack Bauer DVDs before the discs were destroyed by a bomb. At Guantanamo Bay, Lt. Col. Diane Beaver, who commanded a group whose task it was to come up with novel ways of extracting information from detainees, admitted that Jack Bauer was very popular back in the fall 2002. “He gave us a lot of ideas.”
As for this:
> No harm done, I guess, but it did seem rather odd for a professional water systems tech to be relying on hooey.
It could also be that he knew it was hooey, and the dowsing was for your benefit so it's look like he was doing something in the hours waiting for the other truck.
Lordy, I'm a cynical one.
posted by AlSweigart at 8:04 AM on March 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
They probably started doing it after seeing cops on tv use them. Similar to how soldiers used torture techniques they saw on the tv show 24:
> If 24 didn’t strike the U.S. torture match, it was undoubtedly an accelerant and a considerable one at that. Jack Bauer was very popular and widely watched by the armed forces in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Guantanamo. “The military loves our show,” Joel Surnow bragged to The New Yorker’s Jane Mayer during the middle of the sixth season, showing the reporter the American flag that once flew over Baghdad sent to him by soldiers there who passed around a boxed set of Jack Bauer DVDs before the discs were destroyed by a bomb. At Guantanamo Bay, Lt. Col. Diane Beaver, who commanded a group whose task it was to come up with novel ways of extracting information from detainees, admitted that Jack Bauer was very popular back in the fall 2002. “He gave us a lot of ideas.”
As for this:
> No harm done, I guess, but it did seem rather odd for a professional water systems tech to be relying on hooey.
It could also be that he knew it was hooey, and the dowsing was for your benefit so it's look like he was doing something in the hours waiting for the other truck.
Lordy, I'm a cynical one.
posted by AlSweigart at 8:04 AM on March 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
As far as 24 goes, I think an even more insidious effect was how it presented torture as an acceptable and effective technique to the show's viewers. If Jack Bauer's doing it, then it must be OK in the real world too, right?
posted by Paul Slade at 8:17 AM on March 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 8:17 AM on March 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
If Jack Bauer's doing it, then it must be OK in the real world too, right?
The late Supreme Court Justice Scalia heartily agreed:
The late Supreme Court Justice Scalia heartily agreed:
Back in 2007, the Wall Street Journal reported on a law conference in Ottawa, where a Canadian judge remarked during a panel discussion about terrorism, torture and the law, "Thankfully, security agencies in all our countries do not subscribe to the mantra 'What would Jack Bauer do?'"posted by star gentle uterus at 8:42 AM on March 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
None other than Antonin Scalia was on the same panel, and apparently did not appreciate the comment.
Justice Scalia responded with a defense of Agent Bauer, arguing that law enforcement officials deserve latitude in times of great crisis. "Jack Bauer saved Los Angeles.... He saved hundreds of thousands of lives," Judge Scalia reportedly said. "Are you going to convict Jack Bauer?" He then posed a series of questions to his fellow judges: "Say that criminal law is against him? 'You have the right to a jury trial?' Is any jury going to convict Jack Bauer?" "I don't think so," Scalia reportedly answered himself. "So the question is really whether we believe in these absolutes. And ought we believe in these absolutes."
But have they tried just drowning a suspect? If they float, God has rejected them, and they are guilty. It's a fair cop.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:35 AM on March 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:35 AM on March 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
And I likley shouldn't sound that flippant, because I'm sure those fuckers are doing "light waterboarding" all over the goddamn place. They beat the shit of me and my friends in highschool, and if I wasn't white I'm sure i'd be dead.
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:37 AM on March 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by Abehammerb Lincoln at 9:37 AM on March 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
Hard to see how anything bad can come from promoting the idea that police officers have unverifiable mind powers that can help them investigate crimes. Great plan, no notes.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:26 AM on March 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:26 AM on March 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
I mean if you've gotten away with years of claiming burn pattern analysis and in general almost any mark analysis is backed with scientific evidence claiming dowsing works isn't a big leap.
posted by Ferreous at 10:57 AM on March 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Ferreous at 10:57 AM on March 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
No harm done, I guess, but it did seem rather odd for a professional water systems tech to be relying on hooey.
I don't know how common it is with urban water utilities, but every agricultural irrigation company I've interacted with either has someone on staff who douses, or they know who to call. Sometimes it is for well drilling, but I've seen it most often when they are trying to locate a long-buried pipeline put in decades ago. They see it as cheaper and faster than digging pothole after pothole with an excavator until something is found.
I've always assumed it "works" in that there is a skilled and perceptive person who is seeing the subtle indications in the landscape that hints at what is underneath, and maybe assisted by focusing on the sticks and letting their brain make the necessary connections, rather than them actually feeling the water energy or whatever.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:16 PM on March 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
I don't know how common it is with urban water utilities, but every agricultural irrigation company I've interacted with either has someone on staff who douses, or they know who to call. Sometimes it is for well drilling, but I've seen it most often when they are trying to locate a long-buried pipeline put in decades ago. They see it as cheaper and faster than digging pothole after pothole with an excavator until something is found.
I've always assumed it "works" in that there is a skilled and perceptive person who is seeing the subtle indications in the landscape that hints at what is underneath, and maybe assisted by focusing on the sticks and letting their brain make the necessary connections, rather than them actually feeling the water energy or whatever.
posted by Dip Flash at 1:16 PM on March 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
Sorry to be nitpicky, but on behalf of anyone else who's reading this thread and feeling a bit twitchy:
"dowsing" refers to the (valid or not) practice of using bent rods to find things
"dousing" refers to drenching something with a fluid, most often with water
posted by Lexica at 4:05 PM on March 28, 2022 [9 favorites]
"dowsing" refers to the (valid or not) practice of using bent rods to find things
"dousing" refers to drenching something with a fluid, most often with water
posted by Lexica at 4:05 PM on March 28, 2022 [9 favorites]
As in "After he spent the evening telling me about how he could find things with dowsing, all I wanted to find was a hose so I could give him a good dousing."
posted by biogeo at 4:25 PM on March 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by biogeo at 4:25 PM on March 28, 2022 [8 favorites]
There's a lot of woo in forensic science (fire investigation being a notable example) already, it doesn't need more.
posted by tommasz at 7:57 AM on March 29, 2022
posted by tommasz at 7:57 AM on March 29, 2022
No harm done, I guess, but it did seem rather odd for a professional water systems tech to be relying on hooey.
I don't know how common it is with urban water utilities, but every agricultural irrigation company I've interacted with either has someone on staff who douses, or they know who to call. Sometimes it is for well drilling, but I've seen it most often when they are trying to locate a long-buried pipeline put in decades ago. They see it as cheaper and faster than digging pothole after pothole with an excavator until something is found.
There are such things as 'listening sticks' for water pipes, which are basically just the equivalent of stethoscopes. You can find the location of the pipe (or leak in the pipe) by amplifying the sound of the water travelling through it. You literally listen through the stick, this video shows it in action.
Dowsing is different. That's when people take some twigs, hold them horizontally about the ground, and believe that slight movements in the stick are indicative of underground water rather than twitches in their hands. There's no mechanism by which that is likely to happen, and so far as I know, no real evidence that it works. However, I do know, from bitter experience that a surprisingly large number of people who work in the water sector believe that it works and are incredibly defensive about it.
posted by plonkee at 8:51 AM on March 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't know how common it is with urban water utilities, but every agricultural irrigation company I've interacted with either has someone on staff who douses, or they know who to call. Sometimes it is for well drilling, but I've seen it most often when they are trying to locate a long-buried pipeline put in decades ago. They see it as cheaper and faster than digging pothole after pothole with an excavator until something is found.
There are such things as 'listening sticks' for water pipes, which are basically just the equivalent of stethoscopes. You can find the location of the pipe (or leak in the pipe) by amplifying the sound of the water travelling through it. You literally listen through the stick, this video shows it in action.
Dowsing is different. That's when people take some twigs, hold them horizontally about the ground, and believe that slight movements in the stick are indicative of underground water rather than twitches in their hands. There's no mechanism by which that is likely to happen, and so far as I know, no real evidence that it works. However, I do know, from bitter experience that a surprisingly large number of people who work in the water sector believe that it works and are incredibly defensive about it.
posted by plonkee at 8:51 AM on March 29, 2022 [2 favorites]
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