Examining What "Never Again" Means Through the Lens of Magneto
April 24, 2024 4:13 PM Subscribe
Writing for Defector, Asher Elbein talks about the evolution of the character of Magneto, who is (yet again) back from the dead and the shift of meaning in "Never Again," from inclusive aspiration to its violent modern application.
Not a short read, but Elbein charts the growth of Magneto since his inception, through the different writers who've worked with the character and it's responses and reactions to Israeli politics.
Not a short read, but Elbein charts the growth of Magneto since his inception, through the different writers who've worked with the character and it's responses and reactions to Israeli politics.
Part of the problem for using Marvel mutants an as stand in for oppressed people is that mutants are authentically dangerous. The fact that your neighbors are Jewish, or gay, or gay and Jewish should mean nothing to you: it’s not like they will inflict gayness or Jewishness on you, despite the Right’s fantasies. But your mutant neighbor could annihilate you with an energy blast or eat your memories or whatever. The fear of gays and Jews is Rightist paranoia; the fear of mutants is at least somewhat prudent. This is the flip side of “with great power comes great responsibility.”
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:46 PM on April 24 [15 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 5:46 PM on April 24 [15 favorites]
But your mutant neighbor could annihilate you with an energy blast or eat your memories or whatever.
But it's 1) fiction and a 2) metaphor. The important part is the standing out and being oppressed for being born different, not the idea that in real life living to someone who can start fires with their mind would be scary.
The mutant metaphor is even more poignant when it's a metaphor for being queer. Now it's no longer "your neighbour could be a mutant/Black/Jewish." It's "your kid could be a mutant/gay/trans" and the reactionary conservative fears that feed off of that.
Back to Magneto, I love his current characterization in both the Krakoa comics and in X-Men '97 cartoon. The “Most other nations don’t allow a terrorist to be their leader," “Yet so many allow their leaders to be terrorists" exchange was a great distillation of who Magento is fighting against. He's not fighting people. It's bigger than that. He's fighting governments. Even when he's being a "good guy" he's not here to be a super hero - he's here to stand up to nation states in order to defend his people. And thanks to the...complex geopolitics of the Middle East, I can see that resonating with both Israeli and Palestinian readers.
posted by thecjm at 6:01 PM on April 24 [8 favorites]
But it's 1) fiction and a 2) metaphor. The important part is the standing out and being oppressed for being born different, not the idea that in real life living to someone who can start fires with their mind would be scary.
The mutant metaphor is even more poignant when it's a metaphor for being queer. Now it's no longer "your neighbour could be a mutant/Black/Jewish." It's "your kid could be a mutant/gay/trans" and the reactionary conservative fears that feed off of that.
Back to Magneto, I love his current characterization in both the Krakoa comics and in X-Men '97 cartoon. The “Most other nations don’t allow a terrorist to be their leader," “Yet so many allow their leaders to be terrorists" exchange was a great distillation of who Magento is fighting against. He's not fighting people. It's bigger than that. He's fighting governments. Even when he's being a "good guy" he's not here to be a super hero - he's here to stand up to nation states in order to defend his people. And thanks to the...complex geopolitics of the Middle East, I can see that resonating with both Israeli and Palestinian readers.
posted by thecjm at 6:01 PM on April 24 [8 favorites]
My point is that it’s a bad metaphor. It’s stupid and paranoid to be worried about gay people, for example, but mutants can avtualky kill you without even trying. Phoenix eats worlds, which is something g to be concerned about, and something a gay person won’t do. The superpowers wreck the metaphor.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:08 PM on April 24 [11 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:08 PM on April 24 [11 favorites]
Also, Cassandra Nova, who commits genocide on 16 million mutants isn’t human but instead something beyond mutants, trying to make room for her own existence in the worst possible way. What the hell do you do with that?
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:10 PM on April 24 [1 favorite]
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:10 PM on April 24 [1 favorite]
But it's 1) fiction and a 2) metaphor.
thecjm
"It's a fictional metaphor" isn't a free pass. The metaphor still has to map to what you're trying to say to be effective and GenjiandProust is right: the "mutant metaphor" is flawed because it's not inherently irrational or simple blind bigotry to fear mutants.
It's "your kid could be a mutant/gay/trans" and the reactionary conservative fears that feed off of that.
This is a good example of the problem. It's gross prejudice to fear your child coming out as queer. It is not gross prejudice to worry that your child can blow up a city block with her mind.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:17 PM on April 24 [5 favorites]
thecjm
"It's a fictional metaphor" isn't a free pass. The metaphor still has to map to what you're trying to say to be effective and GenjiandProust is right: the "mutant metaphor" is flawed because it's not inherently irrational or simple blind bigotry to fear mutants.
It's "your kid could be a mutant/gay/trans" and the reactionary conservative fears that feed off of that.
This is a good example of the problem. It's gross prejudice to fear your child coming out as queer. It is not gross prejudice to worry that your child can blow up a city block with her mind.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:17 PM on April 24 [5 favorites]
But what if you're inside the metaphor? Isn't it a bit comforting to think, "just by being gay, I'm like someone who can do amazing mutant things"? A lot of people like to think of themselves as the mutants, and it's not really because they're thinking "I like thinking that I could kill everyone".
posted by Frowner at 6:19 PM on April 24 [27 favorites]
posted by Frowner at 6:19 PM on April 24 [27 favorites]
Also, if you want to be fancy about the metaphor, maybe it's like [comp lit voice] by queering the world we are "blowing up" its stale heternormative certainties, by bringing in radical understandings of race we are ending the old world of white supremacist capitalist patriarchy, etc etc etc. Maybe society itself is as much of a metaphor as the mutants.
I like Magneto! He is my favorite.
posted by Frowner at 6:22 PM on April 24 [22 favorites]
I like Magneto! He is my favorite.
posted by Frowner at 6:22 PM on April 24 [22 favorites]
But what if you're inside the metaphor?
You can take it as you want, it's still flawed. It's simply not just bigotry in that world to fear mutants. That doesn't mean Sentinels and death camps, but it's perfectly reasonably, even necessary, for the public to be concerned about them and governments to take action to deal with them so that it's not just "they hate us because we're different".
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:28 PM on April 24 [3 favorites]
You can take it as you want, it's still flawed. It's simply not just bigotry in that world to fear mutants. That doesn't mean Sentinels and death camps, but it's perfectly reasonably, even necessary, for the public to be concerned about them and governments to take action to deal with them so that it's not just "they hate us because we're different".
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:28 PM on April 24 [3 favorites]
There is a conversation to be had about how, as the world has gotten more friendly toward queer folk, whether maybe a lot of what it took to develop the mutant powers has been lost? It's a conversation I've heard more than once across the decades -- that as the world gets less hostile toward queers the life lessons it takes to step outside of the dominant culture and claim your otherness will disappear.
I know the queer metaphor was held up strongly back in the Nineties when it was a strong battle that was being fought. And maybe the superpowers are metaphorical themselves, within the metaphorical. What if Wolverine isn't actually full of rapid healing powers and retractable razor claws, but if instead he's a bitchy queen with a penchant for yellow leather, no sense of shame, and a gift for the fiercest insults you can imagine?
posted by hippybear at 6:28 PM on April 24 [6 favorites]
I know the queer metaphor was held up strongly back in the Nineties when it was a strong battle that was being fought. And maybe the superpowers are metaphorical themselves, within the metaphorical. What if Wolverine isn't actually full of rapid healing powers and retractable razor claws, but if instead he's a bitchy queen with a penchant for yellow leather, no sense of shame, and a gift for the fiercest insults you can imagine?
posted by hippybear at 6:28 PM on April 24 [6 favorites]
Honestly, I even like bad, sad, murderous Magneto, not because I think that the way to freedom is to kill off everyone who might endanger you, but because of how the story of bad sad Magneto is an expression of how bitter, bitter, bitter history is, how it can make you want to stop all the clocks. He's like bad sad Crake in Oryx and Crake - he looks at everything that humans have done - looks at it through the lens of the Holocaust, through what is worst - and the grief and anger makes him want to stop it, blow it all up, unmake it. That's not a political program, but it is one hell of a metaphor.
I always think that Magneto and Theodore Adorno would probably have hit it off if they met under the right circumstances. That's a fanfic if you like.
posted by Frowner at 6:32 PM on April 24 [23 favorites]
I always think that Magneto and Theodore Adorno would probably have hit it off if they met under the right circumstances. That's a fanfic if you like.
posted by Frowner at 6:32 PM on April 24 [23 favorites]
But Magneto likes jazz.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:36 PM on April 24 [12 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:36 PM on April 24 [12 favorites]
But your mutant neighbor could annihilate you with an energy blast or eat your memories or whatever. The fear of gays and Jews is Rightist paranoia
okay but have you considered that no less an authority than pope francis, first of his name, successor of the prince of apostles, supreme pontiff of the universal church, and patriarch of the west, has decreed that trans people are as destructive and inimical to life as atomic weaponry and seek to annihilate the concept of nature?
posted by i used to be someone else at 6:37 PM on April 24 [30 favorites]
okay but have you considered that no less an authority than pope francis, first of his name, successor of the prince of apostles, supreme pontiff of the universal church, and patriarch of the west, has decreed that trans people are as destructive and inimical to life as atomic weaponry and seek to annihilate the concept of nature?
posted by i used to be someone else at 6:37 PM on April 24 [30 favorites]
But what if you're inside the metaphor?
You can take it as you want, it's still flawed. It's simply not just bigotry in that world to fear mutants.
It's a metaphor whose target audience are children. Sure, it's flawed when applied to adults, but.
posted by mhoye at 6:53 PM on April 24 [2 favorites]
You can take it as you want, it's still flawed. It's simply not just bigotry in that world to fear mutants.
It's a metaphor whose target audience are children. Sure, it's flawed when applied to adults, but.
posted by mhoye at 6:53 PM on April 24 [2 favorites]
Sure, but the mutant metaphor reifies that idea.
Now, I actually love Magneto, because he’s the reverse side of Xavier, who says “we can live together.” Magneto says “but, if we can’t live together, we will wreck you, win or lose.” And I kind of hate it when Magneto is just a killer or a “human-hater,” when he’s the guy who says “I’m going to burn down the world if you won’t let me live in it.” He also tend to have a lot more freaks and losers on his team than the X-Men.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:55 PM on April 24 [4 favorites]
Now, I actually love Magneto, because he’s the reverse side of Xavier, who says “we can live together.” Magneto says “but, if we can’t live together, we will wreck you, win or lose.” And I kind of hate it when Magneto is just a killer or a “human-hater,” when he’s the guy who says “I’m going to burn down the world if you won’t let me live in it.” He also tend to have a lot more freaks and losers on his team than the X-Men.
posted by GenjiandProust at 6:55 PM on April 24 [4 favorites]
It is not gross prejudice to worry that your child can blow up a city block with her mind.
Of course it is, because not every mutant has the same type of power. Leech, Caliban, Cypher, etc etc have very non violent powers. Hell, the Morlocks had a friggin' healer, that would be hella useful!
Plus, assuming that your mutant kid will kill you is pretty gross. It's putting what they are before the person you raised, known, and loved. Some mutants could be dangerous, obviously, when their powers first emerge. That's a reason for caution, not fear, IMO. It's a reason to reach out and prepare for what could happen when their power emerges.
Because they're either gonna use that power to help the world or hurt it. What they choose will be based on how the world treats them.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:57 PM on April 24 [21 favorites]
Of course it is, because not every mutant has the same type of power. Leech, Caliban, Cypher, etc etc have very non violent powers. Hell, the Morlocks had a friggin' healer, that would be hella useful!
Plus, assuming that your mutant kid will kill you is pretty gross. It's putting what they are before the person you raised, known, and loved. Some mutants could be dangerous, obviously, when their powers first emerge. That's a reason for caution, not fear, IMO. It's a reason to reach out and prepare for what could happen when their power emerges.
Because they're either gonna use that power to help the world or hurt it. What they choose will be based on how the world treats them.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:57 PM on April 24 [21 favorites]
Well, yeah, but… your kid who runs out to be gay, trans, or straight has 0% chance of, say, giving you multiple cancers when their radiation powers emerge unexpectedly. That’s a world away from wanting to be respected for who they are. I mean, I get why the X-Men resonate, but it’s honestly a terrible metaphor. Besides, I prefer the Doom Patrol, where your powers make you a complete freak and an asocial mess, but you still get to be fantastic, at least sometimes. Maybe that’s because the 90s were my most formative decade….
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:04 PM on April 24 [5 favorites]
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:04 PM on April 24 [5 favorites]
This is just reminding me, once again, oh lord, the promo cycle for Captain America 4 is going to be awkward af.
Pleased to see Yeshayahu Leibowitz namechecked in this piece too.
posted by cendawanita at 7:09 PM on April 24 [5 favorites]
Pleased to see Yeshayahu Leibowitz namechecked in this piece too.
posted by cendawanita at 7:09 PM on April 24 [5 favorites]
Some mutants could be dangerous, obviously, when their powers first emerge. That's a reason for caution, not fear, IMO. It's a reason to reach out and prepare for what could happen when their power emerges.
There's a pretty famous Xmen short where they show one young mutant awakening to his power - to cause anyone near him to disintegrate. By the time he realizes his power is the cause, he's killed his entire family and a good portion of his classmates by being a walking disaster area. In the end, he's found by Wolverine (who is able to withstand his effect) while holed up, and it's clear that Logan has come to kill him, because there really is no other option. (It's also clear that this is not the first time Logan has done this, nor will it be the last.)
To me, that demonstrates why the "mutant metaphor" is flawed - the problem isn't that people fear every mutant, but that viewing a mutant you don't know as a potential threat is rational in a way that holding that view with regards to someone of a different race/creed/gender/etc. will never be.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:20 PM on April 24 [4 favorites]
There's a pretty famous Xmen short where they show one young mutant awakening to his power - to cause anyone near him to disintegrate. By the time he realizes his power is the cause, he's killed his entire family and a good portion of his classmates by being a walking disaster area. In the end, he's found by Wolverine (who is able to withstand his effect) while holed up, and it's clear that Logan has come to kill him, because there really is no other option. (It's also clear that this is not the first time Logan has done this, nor will it be the last.)
To me, that demonstrates why the "mutant metaphor" is flawed - the problem isn't that people fear every mutant, but that viewing a mutant you don't know as a potential threat is rational in a way that holding that view with regards to someone of a different race/creed/gender/etc. will never be.
posted by NoxAeternum at 7:20 PM on April 24 [4 favorites]
In that mutant metaphor, the awakening mutant is a metaphor of carrying a deadly virus that people around you have no defenses against.
Not that it's intended that way, but yes, that's what I read in there. He destroys a giant number of the people just by being around them. Sounds like parties in late 2020.
posted by hippybear at 7:24 PM on April 24 [2 favorites]
Not that it's intended that way, but yes, that's what I read in there. He destroys a giant number of the people just by being around them. Sounds like parties in late 2020.
posted by hippybear at 7:24 PM on April 24 [2 favorites]
And just to head this off, because I know MetaFilter... and this will be coming at me...
I am NOT suggesting that people carrying a deadly virus be killed to neutralize the danger they pose. I AM saying the metaphor works on this one level, and if you INSIST on bringing Wolverine in to extend the metaphor, then okay... people in those suits come in, are impervious to the virus being spread by this person, and the threat ends up neutralized by them being isolated and treated.
It isn't the first time people in those suits have done that, nor will it be the last.
posted by hippybear at 7:26 PM on April 24
I am NOT suggesting that people carrying a deadly virus be killed to neutralize the danger they pose. I AM saying the metaphor works on this one level, and if you INSIST on bringing Wolverine in to extend the metaphor, then okay... people in those suits come in, are impervious to the virus being spread by this person, and the threat ends up neutralized by them being isolated and treated.
It isn't the first time people in those suits have done that, nor will it be the last.
posted by hippybear at 7:26 PM on April 24
there is at least something to be said about allegories and how they're structured, and it's kind of a sliding scale. X-Men is at least well-intentioned outside of the "could vaporize your family" bits. On the other hand, you have something like the movie Zootopia, which is built on an allegory that, upon even cursory examination, is basically Whoops It's White Supremacist Talking Points (PROBABLY not intentional?)
I do occasionally think of the useful advice that a 100% directly applicable analogy ceases to be an analogy and just becomes the thing itself
posted by DoctorFedora at 7:33 PM on April 24 [12 favorites]
I do occasionally think of the useful advice that a 100% directly applicable analogy ceases to be an analogy and just becomes the thing itself
posted by DoctorFedora at 7:33 PM on April 24 [12 favorites]
not a big x-guy but it seems the appropriate comparison group for the x-men isn't Standard Humans but other supers who have potentially world-ending abilities but get a pass because they acquired those abilities in a 'legitimate' fashion (where 'legitimate' is some meritocratic conceit about who should be allowed to wield power: destiny, fate, or personal qualities). iron man gets status because tony stark built it In a Cave! With a Box of Scraps! but a similarly powered mutant gets shunned. mutants didn't 'earn' their powers so they cannot be trusted with them.
posted by logicpunk at 7:40 PM on April 24 [17 favorites]
posted by logicpunk at 7:40 PM on April 24 [17 favorites]
I always read it as something like, “even if ________ was capable of resulting in incredibly destructive powers, they are still human and have feelings and inner lives and can make choices, both for good or evil”.
So the analogy works for me.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:41 PM on April 24 [11 favorites]
So the analogy works for me.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:41 PM on April 24 [11 favorites]
I think the flaw in the metaphor is probably necessary to have the remove to discuss it as a metaphor, especially with kids.
I saw a tiktok with a mom explaining to her kids, who were gen alpha so 2010 born or later, what coming out was, and why it was necessary for some people, and the kids didn't understand it. Because it doesn't make sense to hate or fear a group for no reason.
But if the x men are dangerous, then I think if a kid can understand why a mutant's life should matter, even if they are dangerous, they look past the way people will tell them marginalized people as dangerous.
And I think having what makes you different also make you powerful is it's own message. The lesson that being different isn't wrong, but that people who harm others are wrong whether they have powers or not, whether they have authority or not.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 7:42 PM on April 24 [7 favorites]
I saw a tiktok with a mom explaining to her kids, who were gen alpha so 2010 born or later, what coming out was, and why it was necessary for some people, and the kids didn't understand it. Because it doesn't make sense to hate or fear a group for no reason.
But if the x men are dangerous, then I think if a kid can understand why a mutant's life should matter, even if they are dangerous, they look past the way people will tell them marginalized people as dangerous.
And I think having what makes you different also make you powerful is it's own message. The lesson that being different isn't wrong, but that people who harm others are wrong whether they have powers or not, whether they have authority or not.
posted by Chrysopoeia at 7:42 PM on April 24 [7 favorites]
Leech, Caliban, Cypher, etc etc have very non violent powers.
It's not about inherently violent power vs non-violent. It's that children manifest abilities that are dangerous to both themselves and others until they learnt control.
It is perfectly reasonable to be afraid in a world where you can wake up one morning and your child has a random superpower. That is an actually scary thing.
And, in such a world, it would be not only reasonable but absolutely necessary to have laws and government programs for identifying, training, and regulating such beings, yet in the X-Men books such efforts are always painted as sinister bigoted oppression.
Plus, assuming that your mutant kid will kill you is pretty gross.
No, it's assuming that a child is not capable of handling a potentially harmful ability and that a child with such an ability is harmful precisely because they are a child.
You know, the bedrock assumption we have about all children and why they need training and guidance.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:46 PM on April 24 [2 favorites]
It's not about inherently violent power vs non-violent. It's that children manifest abilities that are dangerous to both themselves and others until they learnt control.
It is perfectly reasonable to be afraid in a world where you can wake up one morning and your child has a random superpower. That is an actually scary thing.
And, in such a world, it would be not only reasonable but absolutely necessary to have laws and government programs for identifying, training, and regulating such beings, yet in the X-Men books such efforts are always painted as sinister bigoted oppression.
Plus, assuming that your mutant kid will kill you is pretty gross.
No, it's assuming that a child is not capable of handling a potentially harmful ability and that a child with such an ability is harmful precisely because they are a child.
You know, the bedrock assumption we have about all children and why they need training and guidance.
posted by star gentle uterus at 7:46 PM on April 24 [2 favorites]
The allegory works because the fictional mutant who can destroy your home with laser beams or give your child cancer shouldn't be compared to the real world Jews, who are just people trying to live their lives, but to the fictional Jews who who are monsters running the world from the shadows, poisoning every political movement, and engineering WWIII.
And indeed to the fictional gays who are all predatory paedophiles who will brainwash your children into being gay and woke, leaving you to pick up the pieces while deciding which is worse.
Bigotry is fundamentally dumb. And a member of an oppressed minority with the raw power to make "never again" a reality is damned compelling.
posted by seraphine at 7:55 PM on April 24 [13 favorites]
And indeed to the fictional gays who are all predatory paedophiles who will brainwash your children into being gay and woke, leaving you to pick up the pieces while deciding which is worse.
Bigotry is fundamentally dumb. And a member of an oppressed minority with the raw power to make "never again" a reality is damned compelling.
posted by seraphine at 7:55 PM on April 24 [13 favorites]
And, in such a world, it would be not only reasonable but absolutely necessary to have laws and government programs for identifying, training, and regulating such beings, yet in the X-Men books such efforts are always painted as sinister bigoted oppression.
Because that's invariably what they are, just as analogous real-world institutions inevitably are or become, because humans cannot be trusted to have power over other humans.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:55 PM on April 24 [6 favorites]
Because that's invariably what they are, just as analogous real-world institutions inevitably are or become, because humans cannot be trusted to have power over other humans.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:55 PM on April 24 [6 favorites]
This is always a stress in super-powers stories. Like, in The Fifth Season, orogene babies can (and do) wreck their surroundings with earthquakes before they can sit up. Frankly it's a miracle the world even still exists to regulate them! You have to squint past that problem to the more interesting analysis.
And I think the key point is what Faint of Butt is saying. Ask the parents of trans kids how they feel about states gathering information on their kids, or parents of teenage girls about the same and their menstrual cycles.
posted by praemunire at 8:01 PM on April 24 [9 favorites]
And I think the key point is what Faint of Butt is saying. Ask the parents of trans kids how they feel about states gathering information on their kids, or parents of teenage girls about the same and their menstrual cycles.
posted by praemunire at 8:01 PM on April 24 [9 favorites]
(And, yeah, I like despairing separatist end-the-world, sure-let-the-aliens-know-where-we-are Magneto, too.)
posted by praemunire at 8:02 PM on April 24 [2 favorites]
posted by praemunire at 8:02 PM on April 24 [2 favorites]
Because that's invariably what they are
Yeah, no kidding. I'm surprised the Blue's not more familiar with the old "The purpose of a system is what it does" cliche.
posted by Random_Tangent at 8:04 PM on April 24 [3 favorites]
Yeah, no kidding. I'm surprised the Blue's not more familiar with the old "The purpose of a system is what it does" cliche.
posted by Random_Tangent at 8:04 PM on April 24 [3 favorites]
Because that's invariably what they are, just as analogous real-world institutions inevitably are or become, because humans cannot be trusted to have power over other humans.
Faint of Butt
Weird to see MetaFilter go full libertarian over the idea of schools or the equivalent of gun control laws.
In a world where kids wake up with random superpowers, they would need some way to learn to control them. In such a world there would be a legitimate need for schools and training programs. There would be a need to identify these kids when they manifest because children with superpowers are an inherent legitimate public safety concern. There would be a need to regulate power use because people running around with super powers are an inherent legitimate public safety concern.
It's super weird to see public schooling rejected in favor of, apparently, the private schools and paramilitary forces of the idle rich like Xavier or Emma Frost. In such a world public training schools for mutants would be a civic good.
Ask the parents of trans kids how they feel about states gathering information on their kids, or parents of teenage girls about the same and their menstrual cycles.
praemunire
But that's the point! That's precisely why the metaphor doesn't work!
Trans kids and menstruating women aren't inherently dangerous. Super powered kids are!
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:04 PM on April 24 [4 favorites]
Faint of Butt
Weird to see MetaFilter go full libertarian over the idea of schools or the equivalent of gun control laws.
In a world where kids wake up with random superpowers, they would need some way to learn to control them. In such a world there would be a legitimate need for schools and training programs. There would be a need to identify these kids when they manifest because children with superpowers are an inherent legitimate public safety concern. There would be a need to regulate power use because people running around with super powers are an inherent legitimate public safety concern.
It's super weird to see public schooling rejected in favor of, apparently, the private schools and paramilitary forces of the idle rich like Xavier or Emma Frost. In such a world public training schools for mutants would be a civic good.
Ask the parents of trans kids how they feel about states gathering information on their kids, or parents of teenage girls about the same and their menstrual cycles.
praemunire
But that's the point! That's precisely why the metaphor doesn't work!
Trans kids and menstruating women aren't inherently dangerous. Super powered kids are!
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:04 PM on April 24 [4 favorites]
The 2018 film Freaks (currently on Netflix) discusses the consequences of people who are "born different." I like the film in part because it doesn't look away from the consequences of folks having "powers."
posted by SPrintF at 8:17 PM on April 24
posted by SPrintF at 8:17 PM on April 24
Trans kids and menstruating women aren't inherently dangerous. Super powered kids are!
Being a mutant isn't dangerous. Being dangerous is. You're so caught up on not understanding the metaphor that you've proven its effectiveness.
posted by Random_Tangent at 8:21 PM on April 24 [12 favorites]
Being a mutant isn't dangerous. Being dangerous is. You're so caught up on not understanding the metaphor that you've proven its effectiveness.
posted by Random_Tangent at 8:21 PM on April 24 [12 favorites]
No, you’re just not engaging with the work on its own terms.
Children randomly manifesting random superpowers that can range from having neon orange skin and hair to controlling weather on a global scale absolutely is inherently dangerous. Saying otherwise isn’t just wrong, it’s not even sane.
In the real world we don’t allow highly dangerous things to go unregulated. We think it’s a bad thing (uh, most of us at least) if kids were running around with, say, guns unchecked. It would be crazy to say “they’re only dangerous if they’re dangerous”, “it’s gross to think your child with a gun would want to kill you”, etc. we agree and understand that children inherently can’t handle dangerous items and require eduction and training to do so.
Engage with the word. Actually think enough the consequences and implications if mutants were a reality.
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:27 PM on April 24
Children randomly manifesting random superpowers that can range from having neon orange skin and hair to controlling weather on a global scale absolutely is inherently dangerous. Saying otherwise isn’t just wrong, it’s not even sane.
In the real world we don’t allow highly dangerous things to go unregulated. We think it’s a bad thing (uh, most of us at least) if kids were running around with, say, guns unchecked. It would be crazy to say “they’re only dangerous if they’re dangerous”, “it’s gross to think your child with a gun would want to kill you”, etc. we agree and understand that children inherently can’t handle dangerous items and require eduction and training to do so.
Engage with the word. Actually think enough the consequences and implications if mutants were a reality.
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:27 PM on April 24
Trans kids and menstruating women aren't inherently dangerous. Super powered kids are!
From the point of view of some states, they all are, though. That's the point.
posted by praemunire at 8:30 PM on April 24 [13 favorites]
From the point of view of some states, they all are, though. That's the point.
posted by praemunire at 8:30 PM on April 24 [13 favorites]
Okay, star gentle uterus, I'll engage with the work on its own terms. Since it's evident that any child could be born with catastrophic mutant powers, the most effective way to protect the public is to identify, document, and strictly regulate every person with a uterus to ensure that no dangerous children are born. Observation and reporting of all menstrual cycles and all sexual activity that could result in pregnancy would probably be necessary. Is this an acceptable solution to you, or do you want to risk some newborn infant setting off the equivalent of a hydrogen bomb in the middle of a major city?
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:36 PM on April 24 [13 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 8:36 PM on April 24 [13 favorites]
I did not expect Metafilter to be this bigoted toward mutantkind
I think some of y'all missed the point
We need Magneto more than ever, and I'm totally digging the Krakoan run, as well as X Men 97
posted by eustatic at 8:45 PM on April 24 [14 favorites]
I think some of y'all missed the point
We need Magneto more than ever, and I'm totally digging the Krakoan run, as well as X Men 97
posted by eustatic at 8:45 PM on April 24 [14 favorites]
For all the talk of it being a bad metaphor, I think there was a solid point made upthread that the Pope has announced that trans people are a threat to humanity. Go through history and check out any of the reasons given by oppressors and bigots for their bigotry, and more often than not, not too far from the surface, you'll get justifications based in some sort of "they're a danger to my way of life" bullshit. Look at any attempt at a rationale for why US schools have police deal with Black children, while handling things in a different manner for white kids, and you'll hear something similar. We've got centuries of antisemitism rooted in the blood libel. The lies the oppressor uses to justify the oppression invariably reach "they're a threat to our way of life." The X-men are fiction, but the fictional reaction to them isn't nearly as far-fetched or fantastical as people might want to believe.
posted by Ghidorah at 8:56 PM on April 24 [18 favorites]
posted by Ghidorah at 8:56 PM on April 24 [18 favorites]
the most effective way to protect the public is to identify, document, and strictly regulate every person with a uterus to ensure that no dangerous children are born. Observation and reporting of all menstrual cycles and all sexual activity that could result in pregnancy would probably be necessary.
I know you mean this as a rhetorical question, but the far more obvious thing to do is to identify mutants and register their powers. Marvel *very famously* had a plotline with that premise in the last few decades and it didn't handle it very smartly, either
Also, given what some mutants can do, hydrogen bomb is an understatement. Jean Grey has a few billion people to her name, and unfortunately the Dark Phoenix is so iconic to the character as to be impossible to retcon, so most writers just kind of ignore she did that. Same as the time Magneto fired an EMP at the entire planet or that time very recently where Beast tried to genocide a country in South America and turned them into plant monsters instead. Due to the mess made out of the Krakoa plotline, currently, most of the most powerful entities in the multiverse are the multiple apotheosed clones of Nazi who built a bunch of the technology used in Krakoa -- which happened by him splitting off and subsequently destroying like a dozen universes, including one where he gives everyone resurrected with his machines the evil gene and leads them to conquer the universe in a brutal dictatorship (Beast also did another universe where non-mutants are kept as zoo animals)
Comics are extremely stupid. It wouldn't be impossible to make a version of the mutant metaphor that worked, but mutants as they exist in Marvel don't really work for it
posted by Galimatazo at 8:58 PM on April 24 [3 favorites]
I know you mean this as a rhetorical question, but the far more obvious thing to do is to identify mutants and register their powers. Marvel *very famously* had a plotline with that premise in the last few decades and it didn't handle it very smartly, either
Also, given what some mutants can do, hydrogen bomb is an understatement. Jean Grey has a few billion people to her name, and unfortunately the Dark Phoenix is so iconic to the character as to be impossible to retcon, so most writers just kind of ignore she did that. Same as the time Magneto fired an EMP at the entire planet or that time very recently where Beast tried to genocide a country in South America and turned them into plant monsters instead. Due to the mess made out of the Krakoa plotline, currently, most of the most powerful entities in the multiverse are the multiple apotheosed clones of Nazi who built a bunch of the technology used in Krakoa -- which happened by him splitting off and subsequently destroying like a dozen universes, including one where he gives everyone resurrected with his machines the evil gene and leads them to conquer the universe in a brutal dictatorship (Beast also did another universe where non-mutants are kept as zoo animals)
Comics are extremely stupid. It wouldn't be impossible to make a version of the mutant metaphor that worked, but mutants as they exist in Marvel don't really work for it
posted by Galimatazo at 8:58 PM on April 24 [3 favorites]
i mean, if we're going with the queer metaphor (although it mystifies me why we're trying to perfect a metaphor, which is going to inherently fail to map perfectly to what it is speaking to)...
...there are states that are already seeking to identify trans people and create a registry. indeed, there are some queer groups that unintentionally have created such registries that are now starting to second guess having those lists. (as mentioned above)
the search for gay or trans genes, much like the search for mutant genes in those stories, were often considered as ways of identifying and... "correcting" the "problems" before they were born.
the "cures" mentioned in the comics often leave the mutants who receive them... either pale shadows of themselves (ex gays) or monstrous people meant to cause as much damage to other mutants as they are to society (the handful of detransitioners that the right-wing ferries around while trying to avoid sending any attention to those that detransition and aren't bigots)
there are lots of queer kids who try for years to hide their queerness, much like mutants.
t4t is a big thing, just like how in the marvel series it's almost always m4m
trans people are weirdly effective at driving a large number of people frothing at the mouth just by existing, similar to mutants.
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:11 PM on April 24 [18 favorites]
...there are states that are already seeking to identify trans people and create a registry. indeed, there are some queer groups that unintentionally have created such registries that are now starting to second guess having those lists. (as mentioned above)
the search for gay or trans genes, much like the search for mutant genes in those stories, were often considered as ways of identifying and... "correcting" the "problems" before they were born.
the "cures" mentioned in the comics often leave the mutants who receive them... either pale shadows of themselves (ex gays) or monstrous people meant to cause as much damage to other mutants as they are to society (the handful of detransitioners that the right-wing ferries around while trying to avoid sending any attention to those that detransition and aren't bigots)
there are lots of queer kids who try for years to hide their queerness, much like mutants.
t4t is a big thing, just like how in the marvel series it's almost always m4m
trans people are weirdly effective at driving a large number of people frothing at the mouth just by existing, similar to mutants.
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:11 PM on April 24 [18 favorites]
The X-men are fiction, but the fictional reaction to them isn't nearly as far-fetched or fantastical as people might want to believe.
The issue isn't the reaction, but the underlying aspect of what's causing it - once again, fearing powers that have the potential for actual harm is rational in a way bigotry will never be, which is what makes the "mutant metaphor" break down.
Or to put it another way - do you all agree with the gun rights crowd that it's irrational to be afraid of someone openly carrying?
That's not to say that you can't use the "mutant metaphor" to tell stories about bigotry - it just means that you need to be aware that it doesn't map neatly onto bigotry because of this intrinsic fact, and develop your stories accordingly.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:15 PM on April 24
The issue isn't the reaction, but the underlying aspect of what's causing it - once again, fearing powers that have the potential for actual harm is rational in a way bigotry will never be, which is what makes the "mutant metaphor" break down.
Or to put it another way - do you all agree with the gun rights crowd that it's irrational to be afraid of someone openly carrying?
That's not to say that you can't use the "mutant metaphor" to tell stories about bigotry - it just means that you need to be aware that it doesn't map neatly onto bigotry because of this intrinsic fact, and develop your stories accordingly.
posted by NoxAeternum at 9:15 PM on April 24
although it mystifies me why we're trying to perfect a metaphor
Metaphors can be good or bad, like any other kind of writing or literary device. Something being a metaphor doesn't mean it can't be badly written, and improving/iterating on a piece of writing is a very normal thing to do
the search for gay or trans genes, much like the search for mutant genes in those stories, were often considered as ways of identifying and... "correcting" the "problems" before they were born.
This is another thing that doesn't quite work: it's gene, singular, it is objectively known to exist, and the effects of it can range from literal omnipotence to "having translucent skin" or emanating energy that uncontrollably kills all life around you. Having the possibility of getting rid of some of the effects of the X-gene is perfectly rational - most of the characters for whom their mutation causes only suffering just do not get resurrected at all even in the Krakoa era. Like for some people their mutation is the single best thing that could have happened to them and for others it's like a horrible supernatural chronic disease
Eugenics are bad primarily because they call for killing or violating the bodily autonomy of a bunch of people. The fact that eugenicists tend to be wilfully scientifically illiterate idiots who think there's a specific gene that codes for sexual orientation is secondary, but the fact that their beliefs are objectively untrue and would have either no or negative impacts on human well-being even to the "beneficiaries" of the program is not irrelevant when arguing against them
posted by Galimatazo at 9:28 PM on April 24 [4 favorites]
Metaphors can be good or bad, like any other kind of writing or literary device. Something being a metaphor doesn't mean it can't be badly written, and improving/iterating on a piece of writing is a very normal thing to do
the search for gay or trans genes, much like the search for mutant genes in those stories, were often considered as ways of identifying and... "correcting" the "problems" before they were born.
This is another thing that doesn't quite work: it's gene, singular, it is objectively known to exist, and the effects of it can range from literal omnipotence to "having translucent skin" or emanating energy that uncontrollably kills all life around you. Having the possibility of getting rid of some of the effects of the X-gene is perfectly rational - most of the characters for whom their mutation causes only suffering just do not get resurrected at all even in the Krakoa era. Like for some people their mutation is the single best thing that could have happened to them and for others it's like a horrible supernatural chronic disease
Eugenics are bad primarily because they call for killing or violating the bodily autonomy of a bunch of people. The fact that eugenicists tend to be wilfully scientifically illiterate idiots who think there's a specific gene that codes for sexual orientation is secondary, but the fact that their beliefs are objectively untrue and would have either no or negative impacts on human well-being even to the "beneficiaries" of the program is not irrelevant when arguing against them
posted by Galimatazo at 9:28 PM on April 24 [4 favorites]
In the real world, every human is dangerous. Any human can raise an army, lead a revolution, tear the economy to bits with a new invention, destroy a 1000 year old church by hammering a list of complaints on a wall.
If you only tolerate an "other" when it is harmless, that means it must be powerless. Sure, mutants are powerful - and hence dangerous - but the fact that the "other" is powerful means oppression is justified?
Oppression of the "other" when they are powerless seems different than when there is presumed power. Slavery oppression was fueled by fears of slave revolts, fear of LGBTQ+ is fueled by "they might talk to our children and convert them!", anti-semitism is full of "jews run the world" claims - fear that the "other" has power.
Sure, we also oppress the "other" without power: but the excuse that the "other" has power to threaten "us" seems pretty universal.
Or, in short, if you think "other" having power justifies oppression, then most xenophobia in history was justified to the perps.
posted by NotAYakk at 9:28 PM on April 24 [21 favorites]
If you only tolerate an "other" when it is harmless, that means it must be powerless. Sure, mutants are powerful - and hence dangerous - but the fact that the "other" is powerful means oppression is justified?
Oppression of the "other" when they are powerless seems different than when there is presumed power. Slavery oppression was fueled by fears of slave revolts, fear of LGBTQ+ is fueled by "they might talk to our children and convert them!", anti-semitism is full of "jews run the world" claims - fear that the "other" has power.
Sure, we also oppress the "other" without power: but the excuse that the "other" has power to threaten "us" seems pretty universal.
Or, in short, if you think "other" having power justifies oppression, then most xenophobia in history was justified to the perps.
posted by NotAYakk at 9:28 PM on April 24 [21 favorites]
All superpowers are unintended metaphors for oil and other fossil fuels, along with how our techniological advancement depends upon energy surplus, now primarily in the form of fossil fuels.
As a result, all superhero stories are deeply flawed in their human centrism, in that they envisiage as inate the great powers granted us by ephemeral fossil fuels.
It's exactly the sort of mistake economists like Nordhaus make when they claim that innovation will continue "green growth", or that +4°C over our pre-industrial climate provides the "optimal" compromise between climate change and the world economy.
I've enjoyed watchmen & some others, but overall the artform looks pretty irredeemable, which future people could easily regard as genocide apologetics.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:48 PM on April 24
As a result, all superhero stories are deeply flawed in their human centrism, in that they envisiage as inate the great powers granted us by ephemeral fossil fuels.
It's exactly the sort of mistake economists like Nordhaus make when they claim that innovation will continue "green growth", or that +4°C over our pre-industrial climate provides the "optimal" compromise between climate change and the world economy.
I've enjoyed watchmen & some others, but overall the artform looks pretty irredeemable, which future people could easily regard as genocide apologetics.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:48 PM on April 24
This is one of the most beautiful pieces of writing I've seen recently and the best I've ever seen on comics. That just makes me even sadder to see actual anti-mutant bigotry being justified in these comments.
It is never righteous to oppress an innocent, regardless of whether they can blow up a city block with their eyes.
posted by zymil at 10:14 PM on April 24 [9 favorites]
It is never righteous to oppress an innocent, regardless of whether they can blow up a city block with their eyes.
posted by zymil at 10:14 PM on April 24 [9 favorites]
In the real world, every human is dangerous.
Once again - is it irrational for people to be afraid of individuals who openly carry guns?
Sure, mutants are powerful - and hence dangerous - but the fact that the "other" is powerful means oppression is justified?
Nobody's saying that, so you can put the strawman down. Power is never a justification for oppression - but on the same token, actual power does change the calculus, as it becomes rational to fear actual power in a way that is not the case with real world bigotry. This is why the "mutant metaphor" is flawed and can't just be used as a stand-in for real world bigotry without some actual consideration as to this aspect.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:18 PM on April 24 [3 favorites]
Once again - is it irrational for people to be afraid of individuals who openly carry guns?
Sure, mutants are powerful - and hence dangerous - but the fact that the "other" is powerful means oppression is justified?
Nobody's saying that, so you can put the strawman down. Power is never a justification for oppression - but on the same token, actual power does change the calculus, as it becomes rational to fear actual power in a way that is not the case with real world bigotry. This is why the "mutant metaphor" is flawed and can't just be used as a stand-in for real world bigotry without some actual consideration as to this aspect.
posted by NoxAeternum at 10:18 PM on April 24 [3 favorites]
If Marvel was brave enough, its writers would create a new Magneto out of the ashes and famine of Gaza. Metaphors can be powerful, in that way.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:56 PM on April 24 [11 favorites]
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:56 PM on April 24 [11 favorites]
If people want a meta view that engages more seriously with the question of education for children with superpowers, I recommend PS238 by Aaron Williams. It's a light tone, so the solutions are similarly light, but the issue is a central concern for the first several books.
posted by Scattercat at 11:59 PM on April 24 [1 favorite]
posted by Scattercat at 11:59 PM on April 24 [1 favorite]
I'd probably recommend My Hero Academia instead - it also gets into education of children/teens with powers, especially their use in heroics (which in the setting is a licensed profession.) It also has a world where possessing powers is in fact the norm (and the fact that the protagonist starts off with no powers winds up being a major plot point in several ways.) There's also discussion of discrimination in several angles (heteromorphs - people whose powers manifest by them taking on non-human forms, and people who wield powers that are easily discriminated against play major roles in the plot), and you wind up having both a faction built around burning everything down as well as a more traditional "we should be unfettered in using our powers" faction.
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:18 AM on April 25 [1 favorite]
posted by NoxAeternum at 12:18 AM on April 25 [1 favorite]
No, you’re just not engaging with the work on its own terms.
You mean as a commercial product designed and produced to drive continued consumption and profit?
posted by Thorzdad at 1:18 AM on April 25 [3 favorites]
You mean as a commercial product designed and produced to drive continued consumption and profit?
posted by Thorzdad at 1:18 AM on April 25 [3 favorites]
i wonder how much of this is the difference between 80s X-Men, when the metaphor was really developed, and current X-Men. my memory of 80s mutants were a handful of super powered ones and a lot of mutants with minor powers. this gave the Mutant Massacre crossover its oomph.
now, though, because of the inevitable escalation of story consequences (save the person, no the block, no the neighborhood, no the city, country, world, galaxy, universe), it feels like there's a lot more Omega level mutants and potentially dangerous powers. this undermines the metaphor a bit.
mind you, i was a teen in the 80s, so this may also be "the metaphor works if you're a child". i still think the metaphor is valid in the way the world still won't leave the mutants alone on Krakoa.
posted by kokaku at 1:51 AM on April 25 [7 favorites]
now, though, because of the inevitable escalation of story consequences (save the person, no the block, no the neighborhood, no the city, country, world, galaxy, universe), it feels like there's a lot more Omega level mutants and potentially dangerous powers. this undermines the metaphor a bit.
mind you, i was a teen in the 80s, so this may also be "the metaphor works if you're a child". i still think the metaphor is valid in the way the world still won't leave the mutants alone on Krakoa.
posted by kokaku at 1:51 AM on April 25 [7 favorites]
This thread is overthinking a truly venerable plate of mutants in order to create a perfect to be the enemy of a very good metaphor that’s been useful for as long or longer than most MeFites have been alive.
posted by cupcakeninja at 2:44 AM on April 25 [15 favorites]
posted by cupcakeninja at 2:44 AM on April 25 [15 favorites]
Trans people and other marginalised people absolutely *are* dangerous.
We're dangerous to people who desperately need a world where the power of the patriarchy is seen as wholesome, natural, common sense.
Anyone who starts deciding who they are for themselves, instead of accepting the identity society has granted them, is an existential threat to the patriarchy.
The challenge is not to convince everyone that we're harmless. The message is not "leave us alone, we're powerless"
The message is, "we're here, we're queer and our existence blows up the lies you're telling yourself and your children. There's no way around accepting us without changing yourself. So change."
posted by Zumbador at 2:58 AM on April 25 [32 favorites]
We're dangerous to people who desperately need a world where the power of the patriarchy is seen as wholesome, natural, common sense.
Anyone who starts deciding who they are for themselves, instead of accepting the identity society has granted them, is an existential threat to the patriarchy.
The challenge is not to convince everyone that we're harmless. The message is not "leave us alone, we're powerless"
The message is, "we're here, we're queer and our existence blows up the lies you're telling yourself and your children. There's no way around accepting us without changing yourself. So change."
posted by Zumbador at 2:58 AM on April 25 [32 favorites]
Yeah, the actual existing and working and devastating mutant powers is where the metaphor ends and where the 'what if' building on the metaphor begins, right?
Like, this is a story about persecuted minority, but instead of only making it a tale of misery porn, what if we could really be as powerful and horrible and looming large as we are in the minds of those who are so anguished by our presence*? What conflicts and precious drama would that cause in us, in our community, in our interaction the world? How would we deal with all that, philosophically?! And ideally the X-Men would give uplifting answers in the spirit of old Superman comics to all those questions. I love when they do, but it's hit or miss. It is a confusing set up after all and Marvel is a bit of a mess.
That's the only way I see to make sense and have fun with the X-Men. But I can't think of anything to say about Magneto in particular, right now, I'm sorry.
*Think of what must have been going on in the mind of, like, Lovecraft?
If Marvel was brave enough, its writers would create a new Magneto out of the ashes and famine of Gaza. Metaphors can be powerful, in that way.
Now you went and reminded me of the existence of the Marvel nine eleven issue. Marvel is such a mess.
posted by Ashenmote at 3:15 AM on April 25 [6 favorites]
Like, this is a story about persecuted minority, but instead of only making it a tale of misery porn, what if we could really be as powerful and horrible and looming large as we are in the minds of those who are so anguished by our presence*? What conflicts and precious drama would that cause in us, in our community, in our interaction the world? How would we deal with all that, philosophically?! And ideally the X-Men would give uplifting answers in the spirit of old Superman comics to all those questions. I love when they do, but it's hit or miss. It is a confusing set up after all and Marvel is a bit of a mess.
That's the only way I see to make sense and have fun with the X-Men. But I can't think of anything to say about Magneto in particular, right now, I'm sorry.
*Think of what must have been going on in the mind of, like, Lovecraft?
If Marvel was brave enough, its writers would create a new Magneto out of the ashes and famine of Gaza. Metaphors can be powerful, in that way.
Now you went and reminded me of the existence of the Marvel nine eleven issue. Marvel is such a mess.
posted by Ashenmote at 3:15 AM on April 25 [6 favorites]
> a lot of stuff about metaphor bad
okay but before modern antiretrovirals
and because the most affected community was
and a lot of folks with bad brains in their head parts were like
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 3:23 AM on April 25 [7 favorites]
okay but before modern antiretrovirals
and because the most affected community was
and a lot of folks with bad brains in their head parts were like
- well they were gonna burn in eternal hellfire anyway
- what if it spreads by other fluids
- they're recruiting our kids think of the childrens
- let's set up a cdc task force but tell them to look pretty and do nothing because who cares if they die, am i right
- if we do not get rid of them if you know what i mean we are all going to die of their plague!
- etc etc
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 3:23 AM on April 25 [7 favorites]
If Marvel was brave enough, its writers would create a new Magneto out of the ashes and famine of Gaza. Metaphors can be powerful, in that way.
... Let me tell you about my Top Gun: Maverick fanfic pitch...
posted by cendawanita at 3:30 AM on April 25 [4 favorites]
... Let me tell you about my Top Gun: Maverick fanfic pitch...
posted by cendawanita at 3:30 AM on April 25 [4 favorites]
there is at least something to be said about allegories and how they're structured, and it's kind of a sliding scale.
Yeah, even when reading Xmen as a teenager, it always struck me as odd that everyone would fear and hate mutants. Surely people with actual powers would be revered by some, right?! But alas, it was Marvel (now Disney) and clearly more nuanced stories were just not going to happen.
There's a pretty famous Xmen short where they show one young mutant awakening to his power - to cause anyone near him to disintegrate. By the time he realizes his power is the cause, he's killed his entire family and a good portion of his classmates by being a walking disaster area.
In New Mutants #45, Vol 1, there's a great story about a mutant who can make sculptures out of light. He winds up meeting the New Mutants in their civilian capacity and he's invited to hang out with them at the mansion, though they don't know he's a mutant. He was just someone they thought was cool. But the poor kid, Larry, had been bullied a lot and his anxiety about potentially making new friends, he made an anti-mutant joke, just trying to fit in.
Naturally, the New Mutants turn cold towards him and no longer want to hang out. Later, kids from Larry's regular school threaten to call the authorities because they either found out he was mutant or were just gassing him. In his terror about that, Larry commits suicide. The New Mutants find out afterwards that he was a mutant and Kitty Pryde gives a good speech about the importance of allowing people to be themselves, no what their color/orientation/race/mutanthood.
So the metaphor can pretty well, but it does take care and good writing. Others may disagree and that's fine, not everything has to work for everyone.
Like, in The Fifth Season, orogene babies can (and do) wreck their surroundings with earthquakes before they can sit up. Frankly it's a miracle the world even still exists to regulate them! You have to squint past that problem to the more interesting analysis.
It's worth noting that orogene babies also intuitively quell Earthquakes that occur naturally it that geographically messed up fictional world. Hence the school in the series that finds them and trains them (albeit brutally).
But really, I just wanted to put in a plug for Broken Earth series, which The Fifth Season is a part of. It's just three novels and absolutely incredible storytelling. Best part is that it is a saga covering centuries that manages to wrap up its story in 3 books (No, i'm not gonna mention GRR Martin, why would you think that).
If you do start the series, just be prepared for how brutal it can, but the series does end on a really great note that rises above all.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:18 AM on April 25 [9 favorites]
Yeah, even when reading Xmen as a teenager, it always struck me as odd that everyone would fear and hate mutants. Surely people with actual powers would be revered by some, right?! But alas, it was Marvel (now Disney) and clearly more nuanced stories were just not going to happen.
There's a pretty famous Xmen short where they show one young mutant awakening to his power - to cause anyone near him to disintegrate. By the time he realizes his power is the cause, he's killed his entire family and a good portion of his classmates by being a walking disaster area.
In New Mutants #45, Vol 1, there's a great story about a mutant who can make sculptures out of light. He winds up meeting the New Mutants in their civilian capacity and he's invited to hang out with them at the mansion, though they don't know he's a mutant. He was just someone they thought was cool. But the poor kid, Larry, had been bullied a lot and his anxiety about potentially making new friends, he made an anti-mutant joke, just trying to fit in.
Naturally, the New Mutants turn cold towards him and no longer want to hang out. Later, kids from Larry's regular school threaten to call the authorities because they either found out he was mutant or were just gassing him. In his terror about that, Larry commits suicide. The New Mutants find out afterwards that he was a mutant and Kitty Pryde gives a good speech about the importance of allowing people to be themselves, no what their color/orientation/race/mutanthood.
So the metaphor can pretty well, but it does take care and good writing. Others may disagree and that's fine, not everything has to work for everyone.
Like, in The Fifth Season, orogene babies can (and do) wreck their surroundings with earthquakes before they can sit up. Frankly it's a miracle the world even still exists to regulate them! You have to squint past that problem to the more interesting analysis.
It's worth noting that orogene babies also intuitively quell Earthquakes that occur naturally it that geographically messed up fictional world. Hence the school in the series that finds them and trains them (albeit brutally).
But really, I just wanted to put in a plug for Broken Earth series, which The Fifth Season is a part of. It's just three novels and absolutely incredible storytelling. Best part is that it is a saga covering centuries that manages to wrap up its story in 3 books (No, i'm not gonna mention GRR Martin, why would you think that).
If you do start the series, just be prepared for how brutal it can, but the series does end on a really great note that rises above all.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:18 AM on April 25 [9 favorites]
supreme pontiff of the universal church, and patriarch of the west
Universal church? The west? Have you heard of the reformation?
posted by Dysk at 5:27 AM on April 25
Universal church? The west? Have you heard of the reformation?
posted by Dysk at 5:27 AM on April 25
Once again - is it irrational for people to be afraid of individuals who openly carry guns?
Nobody is born with a gun in their hand.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:06 AM on April 25 [3 favorites]
Nobody is born with a gun in their hand.
posted by Faint of Butt at 6:06 AM on April 25 [3 favorites]
I've seen rumors that for the X-Men's upcoming turn in the Marvel cinematic universe, there has at least been talk of making Professor X and Magneto into Rwandans. The Nazi/WWII timeline doesn't really work anymore for characters of a practical age, so they are considering options.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:14 AM on April 25 [1 favorite]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:14 AM on April 25 [1 favorite]
Universal church? The west? Have you heard of the reformation?
Look, that poster didn't name the pope. And while the pope has surely heard of the reformation I doubt he gives a fuck about it?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:47 AM on April 25 [2 favorites]
Look, that poster didn't name the pope. And while the pope has surely heard of the reformation I doubt he gives a fuck about it?
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 6:47 AM on April 25 [2 favorites]
Look, that poster didn't name the pope.
I think that's exactly what the poster did, actually. Trump calls himself a genius - do we?
posted by Dysk at 7:06 AM on April 25
I think that's exactly what the poster did, actually. Trump calls himself a genius - do we?
posted by Dysk at 7:06 AM on April 25
Speaking in terms of mutant metaphors to other oppressions...
In the 1990s, Peter David wrote an issue where doctors developed a pre-natal test for the mutant gene. The story was meant to lead into an abortion debate, but Marvel forced him to water it down.
Marvel mutants don't map neatly to real-world oppressed groups, but the fearmongering that your own child could be one of them works much better with the queer analogies than racial or ethnic groups.
posted by cheshyre at 7:29 AM on April 25 [4 favorites]
In the 1990s, Peter David wrote an issue where doctors developed a pre-natal test for the mutant gene. The story was meant to lead into an abortion debate, but Marvel forced him to water it down.
Marvel mutants don't map neatly to real-world oppressed groups, but the fearmongering that your own child could be one of them works much better with the queer analogies than racial or ethnic groups.
posted by cheshyre at 7:29 AM on April 25 [4 favorites]
I think it's worth remembering that the mutants are the real viewpoint characters and the ones whose moral questions are mostly taken seriously. So the affect of the stories is "how does it feel to be reviled for something that you were born with, that gives you experiences that mainstream culture does not have or value and that can feel uncontrollable or scary". The point of the stories is to give express the affect of these people, not to literally thump-thump give a political program or say "the MUTANTS are MINORITIES GET IT they are OPPRESSED, normie".
The Broken Earth books tell the story partly the other way around, "what do the humans think of the mutants". They're also interested in creating a plausible society with a history that makes sense within the world of the book. X-Men does not take place in a plausible society. It's dotted with real-world stuff and with all the retconning etc it gestures at the idea of coherence, but the point of superhero/mutant/etc comics really isn't primarily to tell a plausible linear story that is as detailed and realistic as if it were written by Karl Ove Knausgård. Superhero comics are indeed stupid, and that's because the point of them- to the extent that it's more than selling comics - is feeling, not being smart.
Looking at X-men comics and trying to literalize the metaphor isn't going to explain the power of the comics unless you want to go with "all you readers are reading wrong, don't you understand what you're saying about the gays, stop it". It's like, I loathe those cozy SF Small Angry Planet books, I really think they're awful and full of awful ideas, but most people aren't going to them for a philosophy and a political program, and that's not what the books do or are about. If I look to them for a political program, they will fail, because that's not what they're for. It's like looking for a theory of history from a cookbook - extrapolating one indirectly is fun and revealing about the cookbook and the world it was written in and probably worth doing, but it won't get you a true usable theory of history because even the most discursive cookbook wasn't written to provide one.
posted by Frowner at 7:29 AM on April 25 [5 favorites]
The Broken Earth books tell the story partly the other way around, "what do the humans think of the mutants". They're also interested in creating a plausible society with a history that makes sense within the world of the book. X-Men does not take place in a plausible society. It's dotted with real-world stuff and with all the retconning etc it gestures at the idea of coherence, but the point of superhero/mutant/etc comics really isn't primarily to tell a plausible linear story that is as detailed and realistic as if it were written by Karl Ove Knausgård. Superhero comics are indeed stupid, and that's because the point of them- to the extent that it's more than selling comics - is feeling, not being smart.
Looking at X-men comics and trying to literalize the metaphor isn't going to explain the power of the comics unless you want to go with "all you readers are reading wrong, don't you understand what you're saying about the gays, stop it". It's like, I loathe those cozy SF Small Angry Planet books, I really think they're awful and full of awful ideas, but most people aren't going to them for a philosophy and a political program, and that's not what the books do or are about. If I look to them for a political program, they will fail, because that's not what they're for. It's like looking for a theory of history from a cookbook - extrapolating one indirectly is fun and revealing about the cookbook and the world it was written in and probably worth doing, but it won't get you a true usable theory of history because even the most discursive cookbook wasn't written to provide one.
posted by Frowner at 7:29 AM on April 25 [5 favorites]
I think that's exactly what the poster did, actually. Trump calls himself a genius - do we?
the list of titles is taken directly from the official list of papal titles
and as the most cishettiest of allies to the catholics, i think it behooves us to use the correct styles and titles when referring to papa franciscus né jorge mario bergoglio, who leads a group that, by no less an authority than the catholic league for religious and civil rights, first of its name, has stressed how movies like dogma, the last temptation of christ, apocalypto, and the passion of the christ have irreparably harmed the catholic church and its adherents
posted by i used to be someone else at 7:52 AM on April 25 [3 favorites]
the list of titles is taken directly from the official list of papal titles
and as the most cishettiest of allies to the catholics, i think it behooves us to use the correct styles and titles when referring to papa franciscus né jorge mario bergoglio, who leads a group that, by no less an authority than the catholic league for religious and civil rights, first of its name, has stressed how movies like dogma, the last temptation of christ, apocalypto, and the passion of the christ have irreparably harmed the catholic church and its adherents
posted by i used to be someone else at 7:52 AM on April 25 [3 favorites]
Dropped off of x-men a bit during end stage Krakoa because it seemed to be doing one of its periodic status quo resets in a way that wasn’t super interesting to me, but from what I hear I really have to pick up Ressurection of Magneto. Al Ewing gets a lot of mentions in the article alongside big names like Claremont and Morrison, and honestly it’s justified, he really is that good.
posted by Artw at 7:55 AM on April 25 [2 favorites]
posted by Artw at 7:55 AM on April 25 [2 favorites]
Part of the problem for using Marvel mutants an as stand in for oppressed people is that mutants are authentically dangerous.
All humans are dangerous.
posted by amtho at 8:19 AM on April 25 [3 favorites]
All humans are dangerous.
posted by amtho at 8:19 AM on April 25 [3 favorites]
I'm really confused by these comments. They all seem to be raising points that were already addressed in the piece, which is a fantastic and multilayered piece, and which makes it clear that Magneto has been used, not as a placeholder for individual minorities, but for nationalism, which renders the whole "are individual mutant dangerous?" point moot because nations inherently wield power, not only against other nations but against the minority populations within their own borders. So the bigger theme, about oppression as not only an identity but a justification for violence, still clearly stands?
Plus, Magneto wasn't sent to a concentration camp for being a mutant. He went there because he was Jewish. And the fact that mutants do have powers just drives home the theme, of someone who's experienced powerlessness and oppression acquiring power and deciding it's just to wield it. Which predictably makes people more afraid of mutants, in a way that heightens that sense of us-v-them, and also the whole piece is about Israeli politics so I'm not sure how the convo here somehow completely swerved from the "invoking the Holocaust to justify colonialism and genocide" thing to focus on whether trans people are dangerous, but...
ah, wait, I'm reading a comment thread on metafilter, that explains it, nvm
(And, Frowner, I ADORE that you made a Crake reference. God that book is fantastic and harrowing and fun.)
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 9:10 AM on April 25 [9 favorites]
Plus, Magneto wasn't sent to a concentration camp for being a mutant. He went there because he was Jewish. And the fact that mutants do have powers just drives home the theme, of someone who's experienced powerlessness and oppression acquiring power and deciding it's just to wield it. Which predictably makes people more afraid of mutants, in a way that heightens that sense of us-v-them, and also the whole piece is about Israeli politics so I'm not sure how the convo here somehow completely swerved from the "invoking the Holocaust to justify colonialism and genocide" thing to focus on whether trans people are dangerous, but...
ah, wait, I'm reading a comment thread on metafilter, that explains it, nvm
(And, Frowner, I ADORE that you made a Crake reference. God that book is fantastic and harrowing and fun.)
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 9:10 AM on April 25 [9 favorites]
This discussion is very interesting to me. I was turned off by the Krakoa storyline because it smelled of re-imagined white supremacy. ("Make More Mutants" sounds a lot like "We Will Not Be Replaced".) I tend to agree that as a metaphor for The Other, mutants really don't work that well. They're more like the "mutants/Jews with mind control powers" from Spinrad's The Iron Dream. A nightmarish Other rather than a realistic one.
posted by SPrintF at 9:12 AM on April 25
posted by SPrintF at 9:12 AM on April 25
Krakoa being an exclusionary ethnostate is certainly something I kept expecting the other shoe to drop on, because Hickman had to have something in mind when he came up with it… but for whatever reason (COVID, scheduling, wanting to let other creators have a shot at the setting) he never really closed the circle on that. A couple of the other x-writers took a shot at addressing that, I think Gillen came closest, but when it was time Krakoa to be wrapped up it wasn’t so through any internal flaw that would allow analysis of that and more because Orchis, the mostly useless anti-Krakoan coalition, became super competent, powerful and lucky when it was time to hit that plot point.
There’s a lot in the Krakoa era that’s flat out great, and it’s the most exciting and interesting the franchise has been for ages, but that aspect in particular feels like a lost opportunity.
posted by Artw at 9:21 AM on April 25 [6 favorites]
There’s a lot in the Krakoa era that’s flat out great, and it’s the most exciting and interesting the franchise has been for ages, but that aspect in particular feels like a lost opportunity.
posted by Artw at 9:21 AM on April 25 [6 favorites]
Artw - I feel like the books were getting there in terms of using the exclusionary ethnostate themes, but it seems like an editorial mandate to get things 'back to basics' has scuppered any further exploration of those themes. I know at least one of the creators has been open that they had been told to plan for a few more years stories before being told to abruptly wrap things up.
Its hard not to think this related to whatever mutant MCU plans are starting to take shape, unfortunately.
posted by Dalekdad at 10:24 AM on April 25 [4 favorites]
Its hard not to think this related to whatever mutant MCU plans are starting to take shape, unfortunately.
posted by Dalekdad at 10:24 AM on April 25 [4 favorites]
The article is really good; if you are just responding to the thread, you should definitely take time to read it.
If it has a failure point, it's probably the one that almost all attempts to map comic characters onto real world situations have -- comics are (mostly) a serial medium, rarely produced by a single team for more than a year or two at a time, so characterizations and appearance (and life and existence and powers) change so often that it's hard to pin down any fact. Hell, even "Peter Parker is Spiderman" has to be met with "that depends on what you mean by 'Peter Parker' and "Spiderman.' Elbein does a great job kind of rolling with the changes to Magneto and tying each revision to current events in and around the idea of Israel and a wider Jewish identity. It's an interesting exercise considering how many non-Jewish writers have put their stamp on the best-known Jewish Marvel character (although Kitty Pryde might object to that claim).
Something the article doesn't address as fully as I would like is the way that Magneto is Jewish, yet his identity is much more often tied to his mutant-ness. As THCBT points out, the formative moment for Magneto's ethos comes from his genocidal persecution as a Jew, yet we rarely see him combating antisemitism (he does kill some Nazis in comics and films, but you think he might team up with Captain America to put an end to all thoseNazi Hydra guys running around).
Obviously, all of this is complicated by Marvel's executive editorial team, which has been extremely erratic over the years, causing wild swerves in plots after the writer planned the arcs.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:36 AM on April 25 [7 favorites]
If it has a failure point, it's probably the one that almost all attempts to map comic characters onto real world situations have -- comics are (mostly) a serial medium, rarely produced by a single team for more than a year or two at a time, so characterizations and appearance (and life and existence and powers) change so often that it's hard to pin down any fact. Hell, even "Peter Parker is Spiderman" has to be met with "that depends on what you mean by 'Peter Parker' and "Spiderman.' Elbein does a great job kind of rolling with the changes to Magneto and tying each revision to current events in and around the idea of Israel and a wider Jewish identity. It's an interesting exercise considering how many non-Jewish writers have put their stamp on the best-known Jewish Marvel character (although Kitty Pryde might object to that claim).
Something the article doesn't address as fully as I would like is the way that Magneto is Jewish, yet his identity is much more often tied to his mutant-ness. As THCBT points out, the formative moment for Magneto's ethos comes from his genocidal persecution as a Jew, yet we rarely see him combating antisemitism (he does kill some Nazis in comics and films, but you think he might team up with Captain America to put an end to all those
Obviously, all of this is complicated by Marvel's executive editorial team, which has been extremely erratic over the years, causing wild swerves in plots after the writer planned the arcs.
posted by GenjiandProust at 10:36 AM on April 25 [7 favorites]
My understanding is that Hickman moved away from the X-books because he was ready to move the story forward while a lot of the writers, and probably editorial happy with sales, wanted to explore the current status quo for a bit longer. He wrote Inferno that at least set up that the real conflict is with AI and Moira was never to be trusted and then left for other things like the revamped Ultimate universe.
The nice thing about the mutants as _________ metaphor not perfectly mapping to a specific group like Jews or queer people is that you can play around with how they're similar and how they're different. And you can have Jewish mutants like Magneto or Kitty Pride or gay mutants like Iceman or Northstar that can be examples of how the metaphor works well and how it doesn't. Like what does "Never again" mean? In school we were taught that it meant never again for anyone but that was in a public school in Toronto, where sure we had Jewish kids but they weren't anywhere near the majority. But what if it actually always meant never again for the Jews, that they will never be put in that position? That's still a great goal right? Take steps to protect yourselves so that you won't be a victim of genocide because you know you can't trust other nations to protect you all the time. In the current comics it seems like Xavier has gone from we can all live together pre-Krakoa to mutants can do best in their own nation to cutting a deal with Nimrod and the AI so that humans can be wiped out and mutants left alone. It's not a great look but hey if mutants existence is at stake shouldn't he do what he can so they can survive? The humans made their own mess and can clean it up themselves. It'll be interesting seeing what'll happen when he meets Magneto.
Krakoa and mutant Genosha were primarily non-violent with the rest of the world (covert options not included) and yet at the end of the day they were both destroyed and the wider world didn't care. Or at least didn't care enough to stop it from happening. They had their own problems I guess.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:18 AM on April 25 [4 favorites]
The nice thing about the mutants as _________ metaphor not perfectly mapping to a specific group like Jews or queer people is that you can play around with how they're similar and how they're different. And you can have Jewish mutants like Magneto or Kitty Pride or gay mutants like Iceman or Northstar that can be examples of how the metaphor works well and how it doesn't. Like what does "Never again" mean? In school we were taught that it meant never again for anyone but that was in a public school in Toronto, where sure we had Jewish kids but they weren't anywhere near the majority. But what if it actually always meant never again for the Jews, that they will never be put in that position? That's still a great goal right? Take steps to protect yourselves so that you won't be a victim of genocide because you know you can't trust other nations to protect you all the time. In the current comics it seems like Xavier has gone from we can all live together pre-Krakoa to mutants can do best in their own nation to cutting a deal with Nimrod and the AI so that humans can be wiped out and mutants left alone. It's not a great look but hey if mutants existence is at stake shouldn't he do what he can so they can survive? The humans made their own mess and can clean it up themselves. It'll be interesting seeing what'll happen when he meets Magneto.
Krakoa and mutant Genosha were primarily non-violent with the rest of the world (covert options not included) and yet at the end of the day they were both destroyed and the wider world didn't care. Or at least didn't care enough to stop it from happening. They had their own problems I guess.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 11:18 AM on April 25 [4 favorites]
How do we deal with Magneto's age at this point? He wasn't frozen in a block of ice. At this point, a child today finding out that Magneto survived the Holocaust would be like me as a child finding out that Cyclops fought in the Franco-Prussian war.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:11 PM on April 25
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 12:11 PM on April 25
the Broken Earth trilogy also winds up with a child, born with great and terrifying powers, which is a fully able to control but who wants to destroy the world anyway, because she has seen how much evil and hatred is out there for her kind. This ties in to some points made much earlier in this conversation but I think it bears repeating.
posted by supermedusa at 12:25 PM on April 25 [1 favorite]
posted by supermedusa at 12:25 PM on April 25 [1 favorite]
How do we deal with Magneto's age at this point? He wasn't frozen in a block of ice. At this point, a child today finding out that Magneto survived the Holocaust would be like me as a child finding out that Cyclops fought in the Franco-Prussian war.
Marvel invented a sliding time analogue for the Vietnam conflict - it wasn’t a very popular move. I imagine trying to do the same with WWII would be vastly less well received.
posted by Artw at 12:28 PM on April 25 [2 favorites]
Marvel invented a sliding time analogue for the Vietnam conflict - it wasn’t a very popular move. I imagine trying to do the same with WWII would be vastly less well received.
posted by Artw at 12:28 PM on April 25 [2 favorites]
How do we deal with Magneto's age at this point?
Given the incredible number of characters still alive from WWII or just after (much of the leadership of Hydra, for one), I think the answer would be "don't think too hard about it." I mean, Peter Parke must have been born around 1950, if you don't count all the retcons and revisions (and the Spider plot lines are nearly as convoluted as the Xmen's).Time seems to work very differently in the Marvel continuity than it does in the real world, with a year's issues of a title spanning only a few days in-story. A more worrying thing would be the Holocaust losing its ability to be seen as a motivation by younger readers.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:39 PM on April 25 [3 favorites]
Given the incredible number of characters still alive from WWII or just after (much of the leadership of Hydra, for one), I think the answer would be "don't think too hard about it." I mean, Peter Parke must have been born around 1950, if you don't count all the retcons and revisions (and the Spider plot lines are nearly as convoluted as the Xmen's).Time seems to work very differently in the Marvel continuity than it does in the real world, with a year's issues of a title spanning only a few days in-story. A more worrying thing would be the Holocaust losing its ability to be seen as a motivation by younger readers.
posted by GenjiandProust at 12:39 PM on April 25 [3 favorites]
In New Mutants #45, Vol 1, there's a great story about a mutant who can make sculptures out of light.
Almost one of the first comics I ever read! Featuring the I-didn't-realize-at-the-time-quite-how-hilarious specter of Magneto chaperoning a school dance.
IIRC at the end everyone was all "it's okay if you out us in your speech at the memorial, Kitty!" I guess Magneto was quietly planning to drop the roof on the memorial service if he had to. "That's okay, hon, you self-actualize, I'll clean up the mess afterwards."
Omega level
This was not even a phrase in the 80s, IIRC, and it's a flag for an approach to powers that I've never liked. "I'm not just an Omega, I'm a double Omega!!!"
posted by praemunire at 12:54 PM on April 25 [2 favorites]
Almost one of the first comics I ever read! Featuring the I-didn't-realize-at-the-time-quite-how-hilarious specter of Magneto chaperoning a school dance.
IIRC at the end everyone was all "it's okay if you out us in your speech at the memorial, Kitty!" I guess Magneto was quietly planning to drop the roof on the memorial service if he had to. "That's okay, hon, you self-actualize, I'll clean up the mess afterwards."
Omega level
This was not even a phrase in the 80s, IIRC, and it's a flag for an approach to powers that I've never liked. "I'm not just an Omega, I'm a double Omega!!!"
posted by praemunire at 12:54 PM on April 25 [2 favorites]
In the comics Magneto has died and been resurrected before. He's also been de-aged to a baby I think and then re-aged to adulthood so there's lots of leeway for his body being younger than it otherwise would be. The MCU will need to find some workaround but enough stuff has happened there that they'll be able to give themselves an out.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:56 PM on April 25 [1 favorite]
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:56 PM on April 25 [1 favorite]
> How do we deal with Magneto's age at this point?
I mean they sucked his brains out! gave the answer upthread
it's 100% the correct thing to do and they should do it and i understand that they almost certainly won't do it because the higher-ups don't want to get messily murdered by bullets that come out of guns that get shot by vigilantes and the people who work in the offices don't want to get messily murdered by explosions from bombs packed full of explosions that get planted by vigilantes but, like, magneto is gazan now, full stop, that's my headcanon and that should be your headcanon too and if it's not, bucko, you should sit down and have a think with yourself and keep having that think until it's your headcanon too.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:09 PM on April 25 [6 favorites]
I mean they sucked his brains out! gave the answer upthread
it's 100% the correct thing to do and they should do it and i understand that they almost certainly won't do it because the higher-ups don't want to get messily murdered by bullets that come out of guns that get shot by vigilantes and the people who work in the offices don't want to get messily murdered by explosions from bombs packed full of explosions that get planted by vigilantes but, like, magneto is gazan now, full stop, that's my headcanon and that should be your headcanon too and if it's not, bucko, you should sit down and have a think with yourself and keep having that think until it's your headcanon too.
posted by bombastic lowercase pronouncements at 1:09 PM on April 25 [6 favorites]
the correct styles and titles when referring to papa franciscus né jorge mario bergoglio
This is just doing the equivalent of calling Trump a genius because he does. Pope Francis is not the head of any universal church, nor a patriarch for the west any more than Trump is a genius. Their self-declared fantasies should not be treated as fact, should not be indulged.
posted by Dysk at 2:35 PM on April 25
This is just doing the equivalent of calling Trump a genius because he does. Pope Francis is not the head of any universal church, nor a patriarch for the west any more than Trump is a genius. Their self-declared fantasies should not be treated as fact, should not be indulged.
posted by Dysk at 2:35 PM on April 25
“In the real world we don’t allow highly dangerous things to go unregulated.”
In the US, sadly, we do. We pay lip service otherwise, but we absolutely do.
We even let kids have them and do terrible things with them.
They’re called guns.
posted by FallibleHuman at 2:47 PM on April 25 [1 favorite]
In the US, sadly, we do. We pay lip service otherwise, but we absolutely do.
We even let kids have them and do terrible things with them.
They’re called guns.
posted by FallibleHuman at 2:47 PM on April 25 [1 favorite]
This is just doing the equivalent of calling Trump a genius because he does. Pope Francis is not the head of any universal church, nor a patriarch for the west any more than Trump is a genius. Their self-declared fantasies should not be treated as fact, should not be indulged.
okay but have you considered that you might be reading way, way more seriousness into that comment and also the original one than exists? no less an authority than ai george carlin himself, first of his name, supreme pontiff of the multiuniversal church, metamour of the west signed off on the facetiousness of both
posted by i used to be someone else at 3:31 PM on April 25 [3 favorites]
okay but have you considered that you might be reading way, way more seriousness into that comment and also the original one than exists? no less an authority than ai george carlin himself, first of his name, supreme pontiff of the multiuniversal church, metamour of the west signed off on the facetiousness of both
posted by i used to be someone else at 3:31 PM on April 25 [3 favorites]
Like what does "Never again" mean?
To me, that was the most interesting and central point of the article. As someone raised Jewish, what I’d thoughtwas being instilled in me was Never Again (for anyone, ever), but the last several years have had me questioning if I just missed the point, and ascribed an utterly undeserved altruism to the faith I was raised in. It’s been hard for me to properly articulate it, this feeling of shame and embarrassment over having believed something, and thought that interpretation of the thing was shared by the group, only to find out that my interpretation is evidently laughable and has been, in fact, openly discarded by the largest, most visible part of the group.
It’s a hell of a thing, realizing you bought into what you thought was a universal concern and empathy for all oppressed anywhere, without understanding that it was mostly being used to justify modern apartheid, and enough of a shock to the system that I’ve been mostly silent, mostly a bystander in precisely the worst time to have been one.
posted by Ghidorah at 3:51 PM on April 25 [16 favorites]
To me, that was the most interesting and central point of the article. As someone raised Jewish, what I’d thoughtwas being instilled in me was Never Again (for anyone, ever), but the last several years have had me questioning if I just missed the point, and ascribed an utterly undeserved altruism to the faith I was raised in. It’s been hard for me to properly articulate it, this feeling of shame and embarrassment over having believed something, and thought that interpretation of the thing was shared by the group, only to find out that my interpretation is evidently laughable and has been, in fact, openly discarded by the largest, most visible part of the group.
It’s a hell of a thing, realizing you bought into what you thought was a universal concern and empathy for all oppressed anywhere, without understanding that it was mostly being used to justify modern apartheid, and enough of a shock to the system that I’ve been mostly silent, mostly a bystander in precisely the worst time to have been one.
posted by Ghidorah at 3:51 PM on April 25 [16 favorites]
Anywho, I know a few mefites who are not being included on this year's 'Magneto Was Right' t-shirt-for-xmas-present list.
posted by signal at 5:17 PM on April 25 [6 favorites]
posted by signal at 5:17 PM on April 25 [6 favorites]
*Think of what must have been going on in the mind of, like, Lovecraft?Yeah, we kind of do know that, and hoo boy, it's not great.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 5:43 PM on April 25 [5 favorites]
The article was great. I don't know the source material (beyond the movies and a '90s cartoon, which are consistent with the article) but the metaphor works. The mutans are both the victims of othering, and powerful enough to do violence to those who unjustly harm them--and to do a lot of collateral damage. And to stop caring about collateral damage.
All metaphors are inherently limited. If the point of the subtext were to justify discrimination and othering ("the mutant registration act is good, actually"), the fact that mutants have unique powers would ruin it. But if you're trying to tease out the cycles of oppression, violence and retribution I think packs a good punch.
posted by mark k at 6:24 PM on April 25 [5 favorites]
All metaphors are inherently limited. If the point of the subtext were to justify discrimination and othering ("the mutant registration act is good, actually"), the fact that mutants have unique powers would ruin it. But if you're trying to tease out the cycles of oppression, violence and retribution I think packs a good punch.
posted by mark k at 6:24 PM on April 25 [5 favorites]
it seems the appropriate comparison group for the x-men isn't Standard Humans but other supers who have potentially world-ending abilities but get a pass because they acquired those abilities in a 'legitimate' fashion
Yes. The metaphor works fine when you ask, "Why do the bigots in the story love Thor but hate Storm?"
Some mutants are dangerously powerful, but so are some humans. So why are mutants the scapegoats that get blamed for all the problems caused by superpowers?
Hating/fearing mutants as a group is like saying "We need to turn away immigrants because some of them are dangerous criminals!"
posted by straight at 1:28 AM on April 26 [10 favorites]
Yes. The metaphor works fine when you ask, "Why do the bigots in the story love Thor but hate Storm?"
Some mutants are dangerously powerful, but so are some humans. So why are mutants the scapegoats that get blamed for all the problems caused by superpowers?
Hating/fearing mutants as a group is like saying "We need to turn away immigrants because some of them are dangerous criminals!"
posted by straight at 1:28 AM on April 26 [10 favorites]
This whole discussion reminds me a lot of the people who thought Thanos had a point or who didn't understand why Captain Marvel was so mad at Yon-Rogg.
posted by signal at 4:32 AM on April 26 [3 favorites]
posted by signal at 4:32 AM on April 26 [3 favorites]
Yes. The metaphor works fine when you ask, "Why do the bigots in the story love Thor but hate Storm?"
I think there's an even more obvious answer to that question.
This whole discussion reminds me a lot of the people who thought Thanos had a point
Thanos was half right.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:39 AM on April 26 [1 favorite]
I think there's an even more obvious answer to that question.
This whole discussion reminds me a lot of the people who thought Thanos had a point
Thanos was half right.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:39 AM on April 26 [1 favorite]
Part of the problem for using Marvel mutants an as stand in for oppressed people is that mutants are authentically dangerous.
"Yes. And?"
-Charles Xavier, probably
posted by butterstick at 9:18 AM on April 26 [6 favorites]
"Yes. And?"
-Charles Xavier, probably
posted by butterstick at 9:18 AM on April 26 [6 favorites]
"You suck at improv, Chuck."
- Logan, more than likely.
posted by SPrintF at 11:38 AM on April 26 [1 favorite]
- Logan, more than likely.
posted by SPrintF at 11:38 AM on April 26 [1 favorite]
It turns out the first X-Men film was never posted to FF, so I added it.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:06 PM on April 26 [2 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:06 PM on April 26 [2 favorites]
Gillen has a whole bit in this in Immortal x-men #10 with a Xavier musing on the whole “protecting a world that fears and hates” thing and asking who it is they are protecting against?
and… well, in x-men comics it’s usually other mutants.
But there’s a twist to it that renders that narrative somewhat unreliable.
posted by Artw at 12:13 PM on April 26 [1 favorite]
and… well, in x-men comics it’s usually other mutants.
But there’s a twist to it that renders that narrative somewhat unreliable.
posted by Artw at 12:13 PM on April 26 [1 favorite]
This is just doing the equivalent of calling Trump a genius because he does. Pope Francis is not the head of any universal church, nor a patriarch for the west any more than Trump is a genius. Their self-declared fantasies should not be treated as fact, should not be indulged.
Note to self: only refer to Francis as "Pope Francis, Who Is a Guy Somewhere That Does Church Stuff" on Mefi from now on.
Setting that aside and also not digging into what specifically I agree or don't agree with, this was a lovely and thoughtful piece that makes a lot of implicit storylines explicit and I'm happy to have it humming in the back of my mind as I watch X-Men 97.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:58 PM on April 26 [5 favorites]
Note to self: only refer to Francis as "Pope Francis, Who Is a Guy Somewhere That Does Church Stuff" on Mefi from now on.
Setting that aside and also not digging into what specifically I agree or don't agree with, this was a lovely and thoughtful piece that makes a lot of implicit storylines explicit and I'm happy to have it humming in the back of my mind as I watch X-Men 97.
posted by We put our faith in Blast Hardcheese at 12:58 PM on April 26 [5 favorites]
X-Men 97 sort-of speed running Krakoa (on a different island) is really interesting.
posted by Artw at 1:13 PM on April 26 [1 favorite]
posted by Artw at 1:13 PM on April 26 [1 favorite]
any portmanteau in a storm: In the current comics it seems like Xavier has gone from we can all live together pre-Krakoa to mutants can do best in their own nation to cutting a deal with Nimrod and the AI so that humans can be wiped out and mutants left alone.
He's pretty obviously stalling for time until Marvel can decide how it's going to introduce the X-Men into the MCU.
posted by signal at 2:16 PM on April 26 [2 favorites]
He's pretty obviously stalling for time until Marvel can decide how it's going to introduce the X-Men into the MCU.
posted by signal at 2:16 PM on April 26 [2 favorites]
Its hard not to think this related to whatever mutant MCU plans are starting to take shape, unfortunately.
posted by Dalekdad at 10:24 AM on April
I'm sad because this iscompletely the way it works. Remember when Marvel sank the Xmen Comic because it was investing in the Inhumans?
Remember how the terrigen mists were killing all the mutants? I really hate Marvel sometimes.
As for the beanplating, y'all. Remember the saying that the oppressor ALWAYS positions the other as both powerful and weak? C mon.
But, you guys should really read the resurrection of Magneto. It s really good.
There s no Fanfare for comics, is there?
posted by eustatic at 5:42 PM on April 28 [1 favorite]
posted by Dalekdad at 10:24 AM on April
I'm sad because this iscompletely the way it works. Remember when Marvel sank the Xmen Comic because it was investing in the Inhumans?
Remember how the terrigen mists were killing all the mutants? I really hate Marvel sometimes.
As for the beanplating, y'all. Remember the saying that the oppressor ALWAYS positions the other as both powerful and weak? C mon.
But, you guys should really read the resurrection of Magneto. It s really good.
There s no Fanfare for comics, is there?
posted by eustatic at 5:42 PM on April 28 [1 favorite]
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Disappointing
I joke, this is really good.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:32 PM on April 24 [12 favorites]