'Serve the people'
August 19, 2011 4:35 PM Subscribe
China debate over US envoy's coffee run. 'The low-key actions of two top US officials have sparked heated debate among China's netizens about the nature of public servants. A photograph of new US Ambassador to China Gary Locke ordering coffee and carrying his own backpack generated thousands of online comments. A visit by Vice-President Joe Biden to a small Beijing eatery fuelled debate. Many praised the informality of the two men's actions, contrasting them with status-conscious Chinese officials.'
'Chen Weihua, writing in the China Daily, said that while to most Americans this would not be out of the ordinary, to Chinese people "the scene was so unusual it almost defied belief".
"In China even a township chief, which is not really that high up in the hierarchy, will have a chauffeur and a secretary to carry his bag," he said in an editorial headlined "Backpack makes a good impression".'
'The two episodes generated considerable comment on the internet, with the photo from Seattle - taken by a passing businessman - re-posted more than 40,000 times.
The tone of the debate was overwhelmingly in favour of Mr Locke's down-to-earth actions.
"American officials are to serve the people, but Chinese officials are served by the people, that's the difference," said one commentator on Sina.com, in a representative post.'
Meanwhile, Biden's visit was not without controversy for the American press, when Chinese security officials forcibly pushed back reporters who were trying to record Biden's opening speeches at high-level meetings.
'Chen Weihua, writing in the China Daily, said that while to most Americans this would not be out of the ordinary, to Chinese people "the scene was so unusual it almost defied belief".
"In China even a township chief, which is not really that high up in the hierarchy, will have a chauffeur and a secretary to carry his bag," he said in an editorial headlined "Backpack makes a good impression".'
'The two episodes generated considerable comment on the internet, with the photo from Seattle - taken by a passing businessman - re-posted more than 40,000 times.
The tone of the debate was overwhelmingly in favour of Mr Locke's down-to-earth actions.
"American officials are to serve the people, but Chinese officials are served by the people, that's the difference," said one commentator on Sina.com, in a representative post.'
Meanwhile, Biden's visit was not without controversy for the American press, when Chinese security officials forcibly pushed back reporters who were trying to record Biden's opening speeches at high-level meetings.
I thought communism was all about egalitarianism. I guess in their heart of hearts, the Chinese are still a feudal society where the ruling classes are served by serfs.
posted by Renoroc at 4:42 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Renoroc at 4:42 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
"I thought communism was all about egalitarianism."
China is an oligarchy.
And Mao murdered ten times as many people as Hitler ever could.
posted by bardic at 5:01 PM on August 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
China is an oligarchy.
And Mao murdered ten times as many people as Hitler ever could.
posted by bardic at 5:01 PM on August 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
"Netizens"? This term is oft-repeated in the BBC article. When did the Chinese start living on the internet?
posted by m@f at 5:05 PM on August 19, 2011
posted by m@f at 5:05 PM on August 19, 2011
Interesting observation, Renoroc. You'll find it is fairly applicable across many cultures; look at, for instance, Russia, India and the Philippines. And if you consider Plato's Greece and Caesar's Rome, and imagine that contemporary Greek and Roman-Italian culture is essentially the same (as opposed to Shakespearean romanticization), it's kind of a trip.
And Mao murdered ten times as many people as Hitler ever could.
Bit of a non sequitur here, don't you think?
posted by jabberjaw at 5:06 PM on August 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
And Mao murdered ten times as many people as Hitler ever could.
Bit of a non sequitur here, don't you think?
posted by jabberjaw at 5:06 PM on August 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
I don't spout the "proud to be an American" line as often as many other Americans, but yeah, I like these fellow citizens.
posted by benito.strauss at 5:07 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by benito.strauss at 5:07 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Washingtonians are down-to-earth folks. Ordering coffee is also second nature.
posted by humboldt32 at 5:09 PM on August 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by humboldt32 at 5:09 PM on August 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
When did the Chinese start living on the internet?
Well they do make up 23% of all internet users. The U.S. is second with only 11%.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:12 PM on August 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
Well they do make up 23% of all internet users. The U.S. is second with only 11%.
posted by Tell Me No Lies at 5:12 PM on August 19, 2011 [6 favorites]
china is 23% of everything, LOL
posted by roboton666 at 5:15 PM on August 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by roboton666 at 5:15 PM on August 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
m@f wrote, ""Netizens"? This term is oft-repeated in the BBC article. When did the Chinese start living on the internet?"
They started living on the net when Hideo Kuze with help from Major Kusunagi uploaded the ghosts of these people onto the net. Their attempt would have failed if not for the timely intervention of the Tachikoma's. It's all very complicated stuff sir.
posted by RedShrek at 5:18 PM on August 19, 2011 [24 favorites]
They started living on the net when Hideo Kuze with help from Major Kusunagi uploaded the ghosts of these people onto the net. Their attempt would have failed if not for the timely intervention of the Tachikoma's. It's all very complicated stuff sir.
posted by RedShrek at 5:18 PM on August 19, 2011 [24 favorites]
I thought communism was all about egalitarianism. I guess in their heart of hearts, the Chinese are still a feudal society where the ruling classes are served by serfs.
I was trying to respond to your comment, which for some reason I felt did not fit, but I couldn't put my finger on it until now. The terms "feudalism" and "serfs" are more for the European Middle Ages than Chinese dynastic rule. (Though to Marxists, feudalism has a much wider meaning)
I'm consulting Wikipedia on the examples of Feudalism, and so far only two dynasties are listed for China that are feudalistic, and both were pre-biblical.
Most Chinese dynasties at least paid lip service to some form of Confucianism, which though hierarchical, also stated that emperors and the scholar-gentry (the ruling class in China) were to act as examples for the people and also had responsibilities. In fact, the most famous protege of Confucius, Mencius, has said that rulers should be overthrown or even killed if they fail in their responsibility to the people.
Now, I'm even less of an expert on European Middle Ages history than I am on Chinese history, but European rule by kings didn't really allow for overthrow or reform if you got stuck with a crappy king. Even the Magna Carta only allowed barons to make that decision.
This is not to say that the Chinese dynasties were perfect. That's why there were about 15 of them after all.
posted by FJT at 5:18 PM on August 19, 2011 [10 favorites]
I was trying to respond to your comment, which for some reason I felt did not fit, but I couldn't put my finger on it until now. The terms "feudalism" and "serfs" are more for the European Middle Ages than Chinese dynastic rule. (Though to Marxists, feudalism has a much wider meaning)
I'm consulting Wikipedia on the examples of Feudalism, and so far only two dynasties are listed for China that are feudalistic, and both were pre-biblical.
Most Chinese dynasties at least paid lip service to some form of Confucianism, which though hierarchical, also stated that emperors and the scholar-gentry (the ruling class in China) were to act as examples for the people and also had responsibilities. In fact, the most famous protege of Confucius, Mencius, has said that rulers should be overthrown or even killed if they fail in their responsibility to the people.
Now, I'm even less of an expert on European Middle Ages history than I am on Chinese history, but European rule by kings didn't really allow for overthrow or reform if you got stuck with a crappy king. Even the Magna Carta only allowed barons to make that decision.
This is not to say that the Chinese dynasties were perfect. That's why there were about 15 of them after all.
posted by FJT at 5:18 PM on August 19, 2011 [10 favorites]
damn, I'm rusty. States recent re-trench and sending in joe rang a bell/hat-in-hand.
credits due, er.
Humble pie on tour.
posted by clavdivs at 5:20 PM on August 19, 2011
credits due, er.
Humble pie on tour.
posted by clavdivs at 5:20 PM on August 19, 2011
In fact, the most famous protege of Confucius, Mencius, has said that rulers should be overthrown or even killed if they fail in their responsibility to the people.
More over it is called Mandate of Heaven, based on the/in The Five Relationships.
posted by clavdivs at 5:42 PM on August 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
More over it is called Mandate of Heaven, based on the/in The Five Relationships.
posted by clavdivs at 5:42 PM on August 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
"When all men wish to correct themselves, what need is there for warfare?"
-Mencius
posted by clavdivs at 5:44 PM on August 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
-Mencius
posted by clavdivs at 5:44 PM on August 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
"American officials are to serve the people, but Chinese officials are served by the people, that's the difference," said one commentator on Sina.com, in a representative post.
Sorry, dude. American officials are as corrupt as any other place where money in politics is thoroughly unchecked. The difference is that American officials have learned than an "aw shucks" attitude and cutting some brush will distract the public from it.
posted by Mayor Curley at 5:45 PM on August 19, 2011 [27 favorites]
Sorry, dude. American officials are as corrupt as any other place where money in politics is thoroughly unchecked. The difference is that American officials have learned than an "aw shucks" attitude and cutting some brush will distract the public from it.
posted by Mayor Curley at 5:45 PM on August 19, 2011 [27 favorites]
This amuses me, just because back in the day, when Gary Locke was in the Washington State House, I'd run into him in line for our morning beverage.
posted by Jazz Hands at 5:47 PM on August 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by Jazz Hands at 5:47 PM on August 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
Joe Biden is the shit. Obama needs to send him cross country on I-80 in a bus John McCain style. Just let him go all steam of consciousness on these Tea Party rascals. By the time he gets west there won't be a red state left.
posted by humanfont at 5:56 PM on August 19, 2011 [27 favorites]
posted by humanfont at 5:56 PM on August 19, 2011 [27 favorites]
Biden visits China amid crackdown on writers, dissidents
posted by homunculus at 5:57 PM on August 19, 2011
posted by homunculus at 5:57 PM on August 19, 2011
Sorry, dude. American officials are as corrupt as any other place where money in politics is thoroughly unchecked.
Actually, no. I've got two close friends who are China hands, one, a member of the commercial service, the other, a top military intelligence person. The Chinese are far more corrupt.
Americans have money in political campaigns, yes--and we agree this is bad. But China has bribery on a mass scale. American politicians take money to buy ads to convince people to vote for them. Chinese leaders take bribes to fatten their personal bank accounts. The difference is huge.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:05 PM on August 19, 2011 [24 favorites]
Actually, no. I've got two close friends who are China hands, one, a member of the commercial service, the other, a top military intelligence person. The Chinese are far more corrupt.
Americans have money in political campaigns, yes--and we agree this is bad. But China has bribery on a mass scale. American politicians take money to buy ads to convince people to vote for them. Chinese leaders take bribes to fatten their personal bank accounts. The difference is huge.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:05 PM on August 19, 2011 [24 favorites]
"American officials are to serve the people, but Chinese officials are served by the people, that's the difference," said one commentator on Sina.com, in a representative post.
"Now watch this drive."
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:05 PM on August 19, 2011 [9 favorites]
"Now watch this drive."
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 6:05 PM on August 19, 2011 [9 favorites]
Crackdown on writers and dissidents, does that mean they wear low slung pants in China too? I am so sick of that look.
We used to be a nation of farming people, with transportation and retail support, I love the American "aw shucks," salt of the earth people. We can still be that, it is one of the best things about our nation. Realism is something we need to practice, walking, doing our own stuff, outside the giant SUVs, and in the common flow.
posted by Oyéah at 6:08 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
We used to be a nation of farming people, with transportation and retail support, I love the American "aw shucks," salt of the earth people. We can still be that, it is one of the best things about our nation. Realism is something we need to practice, walking, doing our own stuff, outside the giant SUVs, and in the common flow.
posted by Oyéah at 6:08 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
"American officials are to serve the people, but Chinese officials are served by the people, that's the difference," said one commentator on Sina.com, in a representative post.
"Now watch this drive."
The greatest 30 seconds of US political documentary, ever.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:08 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
"Now watch this drive."
The greatest 30 seconds of US political documentary, ever.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:08 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
I couldn't find the original article online, but Granta, Spring 2002 published these:
In Granta's special spring issue, What We Think of America, the same Ziauddin Sardar contributes a fine, observant, funny first-person essay on Mecca, where he did research for five years. In the co-authored cartoon under review, however, his delicate skepticism toward tradition is not in evidence. Most of the 24 contributors to the Granta symposium, however, draw on experience and display curiosity about the actually existing America, where people live. The Canadian Michael Ignatieff praises America's "democratic reinvention." The Indian Ramachandra Guha recalls that the sight of the dean of the Yale Law School carrying his own baggage "was a body blow to my anti-Americanism." The Chilean Ariel Dorfman indispensably warns "how comfortable it is to employ anti-Americanism as a way of avoiding the faults and deficiencies of our own societies, even though such self-criticism should not prevent us from assigning blame to Americans when that blame is due, which it often is." To the contrary, Harold Pinter contributes the sort of rant that one of his stumbling, punch-drunk characters might commit, to the effect that the United States is murderous, period, so there.
This quote here on FrontPage (yes, I know. Shut up. The Granta article is print onlin now.
posted by ocschwar at 6:11 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
In Granta's special spring issue, What We Think of America, the same Ziauddin Sardar contributes a fine, observant, funny first-person essay on Mecca, where he did research for five years. In the co-authored cartoon under review, however, his delicate skepticism toward tradition is not in evidence. Most of the 24 contributors to the Granta symposium, however, draw on experience and display curiosity about the actually existing America, where people live. The Canadian Michael Ignatieff praises America's "democratic reinvention." The Indian Ramachandra Guha recalls that the sight of the dean of the Yale Law School carrying his own baggage "was a body blow to my anti-Americanism." The Chilean Ariel Dorfman indispensably warns "how comfortable it is to employ anti-Americanism as a way of avoiding the faults and deficiencies of our own societies, even though such self-criticism should not prevent us from assigning blame to Americans when that blame is due, which it often is." To the contrary, Harold Pinter contributes the sort of rant that one of his stumbling, punch-drunk characters might commit, to the effect that the United States is murderous, period, so there.
This quote here on FrontPage (yes, I know. Shut up. The Granta article is print onlin now.
posted by ocschwar at 6:11 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Killing them with casualness.
posted by donovan at 6:19 PM on August 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by donovan at 6:19 PM on August 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
American politicians take money to buy ads to convince people to vote for them.
Are you implying that it stops there? Or is the line an excerpt from "Lies My Civics Textbook Told Me"?
posted by Mayor Curley at 6:22 PM on August 19, 2011
Are you implying that it stops there? Or is the line an excerpt from "Lies My Civics Textbook Told Me"?
posted by Mayor Curley at 6:22 PM on August 19, 2011
I'll bet my hat the author meant to type "denizens", but "nedizens" came out and it got autocorrected to netizens.
posted by gjc at 6:23 PM on August 19, 2011
posted by gjc at 6:23 PM on August 19, 2011
Reminds me of William Dodd, who famously brought a rusty old Chevrolet with him when he was appointed US Ambassador to Germany (in 1934). Nobody else wanted the job, strangely.
He felt his job was to exemplify Jeffersonian values of economy, diligence, and egalitarianism. It didn't exactly impress the Nazis.
posted by anthill at 6:30 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
He felt his job was to exemplify Jeffersonian values of economy, diligence, and egalitarianism. It didn't exactly impress the Nazis.
posted by anthill at 6:30 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Biden visits China amid crackdown on writers, dissidents
Clearly this means that it was Amtrak-riding Biden, not the Chinese government, that was responsible for the crackdown.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:30 PM on August 19, 2011
Clearly this means that it was Amtrak-riding Biden, not the Chinese government, that was responsible for the crackdown.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:30 PM on August 19, 2011
American politicians take money to buy ads to convince people to vote for them.
Are you implying that it stops there? Or is the line an excerpt from "Lies My Civics Textbook Told Me"?
Oh, christalmighty. What is it with you American leftists?
Get over your parochial worldview and look around you. When it comes to corruption or other forms of social dysfunction, there are major differences in degree between countries. And yes, corrupting the legislative process with campaign donations is nowhere near as bad as the bribery process in baksheesh economies like China, especially the provinces.
posted by ocschwar at 6:33 PM on August 19, 2011 [15 favorites]
American politicians take money to buy ads to convince people to vote for them.
Are you implying that it stops there? Or is the line an excerpt from "Lies My Civics Textbook Told Me"?
Well, let's see your evidence of widespread actual bribery.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:36 PM on August 19, 2011
Are you implying that it stops there? Or is the line an excerpt from "Lies My Civics Textbook Told Me"?
Well, let's see your evidence of widespread actual bribery.
posted by Ironmouth at 6:36 PM on August 19, 2011
Anyone who thinks American officials are as corrupt as Chinese ones has obviously never had any dealings with either.
posted by joannemullen at 6:47 PM on August 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by joannemullen at 6:47 PM on August 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
I thought communism was all about egalitarianism. I guess in their heart of hearts, the Chinese are still a feudal society where the ruling classes are served by serfs.
Francis Fukuyama's latest book has about six chapters about China's political development, and deals at length with why a) ideas like egalitarianism and the rule of law have a very different history in China and b) why calling China's past dynasties "feudal" is not even wrong.
American politicians take money to buy ads to convince people to vote for them.
Are you implying that it stops there? Or is the line an excerpt from "Lies My Civics Textbook Told Me"?
It really is all about us, isn't it? Half the population insists that no other country can possibly be better, the other half says no country could possibly be worse.
There's a lot of corruption in Washington. There's even more in Beijing, although I've heard its far, far worse on the local/regional level than it is at the federal (anecdotal, wouldn't mind having someone more knowledgeable than I confirm it one way or the other).
That said, the dynamics of corruption are somewhat different in China. You're less likely to get caught out and punished for corruption by the authorities, but the consequences are much more severe. Whereas in Washington, you can expect the chances of being exposed by press or police to be much higher, but the costs don't include being executed. The stakes are higher on both sides of the equation over there than they are here.
posted by AdamCSnider at 6:49 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Francis Fukuyama's latest book has about six chapters about China's political development, and deals at length with why a) ideas like egalitarianism and the rule of law have a very different history in China and b) why calling China's past dynasties "feudal" is not even wrong.
American politicians take money to buy ads to convince people to vote for them.
Are you implying that it stops there? Or is the line an excerpt from "Lies My Civics Textbook Told Me"?
It really is all about us, isn't it? Half the population insists that no other country can possibly be better, the other half says no country could possibly be worse.
There's a lot of corruption in Washington. There's even more in Beijing, although I've heard its far, far worse on the local/regional level than it is at the federal (anecdotal, wouldn't mind having someone more knowledgeable than I confirm it one way or the other).
That said, the dynamics of corruption are somewhat different in China. You're less likely to get caught out and punished for corruption by the authorities, but the consequences are much more severe. Whereas in Washington, you can expect the chances of being exposed by press or police to be much higher, but the costs don't include being executed. The stakes are higher on both sides of the equation over there than they are here.
posted by AdamCSnider at 6:49 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
The American political system is a lot better than most of us want to admit.
posted by reductiondesign at 6:49 PM on August 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by reductiondesign at 6:49 PM on August 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
BEIJING — Execution for corruption is proportionate and accords with "China's national condition," a senior official said Thursday, as a disgraced former party chief from Shanghai, now confirmed to be behind bars, awaits trial.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 6:50 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by furiousxgeorge at 6:50 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'll bet my hat the author meant to type "denizens", but "nedizens" came out and it got autocorrected to netizens.
Man, you must really hate that hat.
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 6:54 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Man, you must really hate that hat.
posted by thsmchnekllsfascists at 6:54 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
From my understanding of the Chinese internet (which is fairly limited and entirely in translation but I still find the topic fascinating), there's this constantly re-occuring trope of insecurity about the moral foundations the new China is built on and a deep well of rage at corrupt officials that often fixes on the US as useful contrast. The aspects of American culture that are singled out as a virtuous mirror image of China's vice can seem trivial or totally incongruous to an American liberal. Some examples from ChinaSMACK:
On the widespread availability of guns in Walmart: "Only with citizens who have high restraint and a society with relatively few injustices would [a country] dare be like this."
On the existence and school buses in America: "No matter whether it is bustling city, or a deserted countryside, every time I see a yellow school bus slowly come to a stop, open up its red ear, and children excitedly going to and getting off school, I think of those children who raise their hands to salute luxury cars [of officials] in China and feel heavy and depressed."
posted by strangely stunted trees at 6:54 PM on August 19, 2011 [13 favorites]
On the widespread availability of guns in Walmart: "Only with citizens who have high restraint and a society with relatively few injustices would [a country] dare be like this."
On the existence and school buses in America: "No matter whether it is bustling city, or a deserted countryside, every time I see a yellow school bus slowly come to a stop, open up its red ear, and children excitedly going to and getting off school, I think of those children who raise their hands to salute luxury cars [of officials] in China and feel heavy and depressed."
posted by strangely stunted trees at 6:54 PM on August 19, 2011 [13 favorites]
22 to 78.
Transparency International puts us at 22 and the Chinese at 78. Out ahead of us are the usual suspects (European social democracies, including all of Scandinavia) and...Singapore and Quatar? Interesting.
posted by AdamCSnider at 6:54 PM on August 19, 2011
Transparency International puts us at 22 and the Chinese at 78. Out ahead of us are the usual suspects (European social democracies, including all of Scandinavia) and...Singapore and Quatar? Interesting.
posted by AdamCSnider at 6:54 PM on August 19, 2011
And yeah netizen is a really common term for an Internet user in China - it's also used a lot in Korea.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 6:56 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by strangely stunted trees at 6:56 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Well, let's see your evidence of widespread actual bribery.
I will present it following the precedent that you set:
I have friends that work with the American government and they say that it's corrupt and that is evidence because you don't know me but I'm totally credible.
But seriously. How about: the former vice president had previously been the CEO of Haliburton, and then Haliburton got hundreds of millions of dollars of no-bid contracts in Iraq? Corruption takes lots of forms beyond straight cash transactions.
posted by Mayor Curley at 6:58 PM on August 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
I will present it following the precedent that you set:
I have friends that work with the American government and they say that it's corrupt and that is evidence because you don't know me but I'm totally credible.
But seriously. How about: the former vice president had previously been the CEO of Haliburton, and then Haliburton got hundreds of millions of dollars of no-bid contracts in Iraq? Corruption takes lots of forms beyond straight cash transactions.
posted by Mayor Curley at 6:58 PM on August 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
And yes, corrupting the legislative process with campaign donations is nowhere near as bad as the bribery process in baksheesh economies like China, especially the provinces.
It's true - in China, corruption is everywhere. In America, we only tolerate it at the highest levels.
posted by AlsoMike at 7:01 PM on August 19, 2011 [18 favorites]
It's true - in China, corruption is everywhere. In America, we only tolerate it at the highest levels.
posted by AlsoMike at 7:01 PM on August 19, 2011 [18 favorites]
One of the things I loved about living in Chicago versus NY was that in Chicago, you knew who you had to pay off to get things done. Your local alderman. In NY, there is no one person to go to. Corruption can work efficiently sometimes.
posted by JohnnyGunn at 7:05 PM on August 19, 2011
posted by JohnnyGunn at 7:05 PM on August 19, 2011
strangely stunted trees: there's this constantly re-occuring trope of insecurity about the moral foundations the new China is built on and a deep well of rage at corrupt officials that often fixes on the US as useful contrast.
Love me some ChinaSMACK. Here's a post about the arrest of Ridgefield, NJ mayor Anthony Suarez for taking a $25,000 bribe. Some of the translated netizen comments:
"Hehe, in our village we’d feel stupid trying to bribe someone with such a small amount, and the press wouldn’t feel that it was even worth a story."
"All I can say is that America is too poor.
In China, if it isn’t a few million, people wouldn’t even think it was a bribe."
"If this was in China, it’d also be big news! What an honest and good government official!"
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 7:06 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Love me some ChinaSMACK. Here's a post about the arrest of Ridgefield, NJ mayor Anthony Suarez for taking a $25,000 bribe. Some of the translated netizen comments:
"Hehe, in our village we’d feel stupid trying to bribe someone with such a small amount, and the press wouldn’t feel that it was even worth a story."
"All I can say is that America is too poor.
In China, if it isn’t a few million, people wouldn’t even think it was a bribe."
"If this was in China, it’d also be big news! What an honest and good government official!"
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 7:06 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
And Gary Locke could use some good press in China. He's under a lot of fire for being a "fake Chinese" because he doesn't speak Mandarin or even really Cantonese, was born in the US, is loyal to the United States instead of China, etc.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 7:11 PM on August 19, 2011
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 7:11 PM on August 19, 2011
And Gary Locke could use some good press in China. He's under a lot of fire for being a "fake Chinese" because he doesn't speak Mandarin or even really Cantonese, was born in the US, is loyal to the United States instead of China, etc.
Say what??
And Donald Rumsfeld is a "fake German" by that accounting.
Memo to all Chinese: America is not just a place to camp out to. It's a nation state. Gary Locke is an American, his ancestry notwithstanding.
posted by ocschwar at 7:14 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Anyone who thinks American officials are as corrupt as Chinese ones has obviously never had any dealings with either.
Yeah, but it's still kind of disheartening to realize that we're defending accusations of corruption with "well, we may be corrupt, but look on the bright side: at least we're not as corrupt as . . ."
posted by treepour at 7:17 PM on August 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
Yeah, but it's still kind of disheartening to realize that we're defending accusations of corruption with "well, we may be corrupt, but look on the bright side: at least we're not as corrupt as . . ."
posted by treepour at 7:17 PM on August 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
Sheesh, the man was buying coffee in _Seattle_.
It's not like he walked out on his own to one of the Beijing Starbucks to buy himself a cup of coffee.
posted by hank at 7:21 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's not like he walked out on his own to one of the Beijing Starbucks to buy himself a cup of coffee.
posted by hank at 7:21 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Well, let's see your evidence of widespread actual bribery.
I will present it following the precedent that you set:
I have friends that work with the American government and they say that it's corrupt and that is evidence because you don't know me but I'm totally credible.
But seriously. How about: the former vice president had previously been the CEO of Haliburton, and then Haliburton got hundreds of millions of dollars of no-bid contracts in Iraq? Corruption takes lots of forms beyond straight cash transactions.
May I gently suggest that the naked cash bribe in an unelected system is far worse than the fact that a Washington insider left a company for government again.
I'm not saying we don't have problems in conflicts of interests. I'm saying the Chinese are way fucking worse. My one friend was no 2 US commericial officer in the Dept of Commerce. The other, a US Army Lt Col formerly the head of the section advising the joint cheifs on intelligence policy and currently the head of the military section in the us interest section in taiwan, ie our military attache.
So if you've talked to people who know better, I'd love to hear about it.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:21 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
I will present it following the precedent that you set:
I have friends that work with the American government and they say that it's corrupt and that is evidence because you don't know me but I'm totally credible.
But seriously. How about: the former vice president had previously been the CEO of Haliburton, and then Haliburton got hundreds of millions of dollars of no-bid contracts in Iraq? Corruption takes lots of forms beyond straight cash transactions.
May I gently suggest that the naked cash bribe in an unelected system is far worse than the fact that a Washington insider left a company for government again.
I'm not saying we don't have problems in conflicts of interests. I'm saying the Chinese are way fucking worse. My one friend was no 2 US commericial officer in the Dept of Commerce. The other, a US Army Lt Col formerly the head of the section advising the joint cheifs on intelligence policy and currently the head of the military section in the us interest section in taiwan, ie our military attache.
So if you've talked to people who know better, I'd love to hear about it.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:21 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Memo to all Chinese: America is not just a place to camp out to. It's a nation state. Gary Locke is an American, his ancestry notwithstanding.
Having traveled a bit over the Atlantic, a fair number of Europeans that could profit by being reminded of this notion. There's a lot of places on Earth where birthplace and ancestry are taken to define nationality, and exceptions are only made grudgingly.
posted by AdamCSnider at 7:26 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Having traveled a bit over the Atlantic, a fair number of Europeans that could profit by being reminded of this notion. There's a lot of places on Earth where birthplace and ancestry are taken to define nationality, and exceptions are only made grudgingly.
posted by AdamCSnider at 7:26 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
My one friend was no 2 US commericial officer in the Dept of Commerce.
In the US Embassy in Bejing for 2 years. Sorry.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:32 PM on August 19, 2011
In the US Embassy in Bejing for 2 years. Sorry.
posted by Ironmouth at 7:32 PM on August 19, 2011
Yeah, but it's still kind of disheartening to realize that we're defending accusations of corruption with "well, we may be corrupt, but look on the bright side: at least we're not as corrupt as . . ."
I've yet to see anyone in this thread "defending" American levels of corruption in any way, shape or form. I imagine it is possible for most of the folk here to hold two separate thoughts - China's corruption is worse, there is room for improvement here in America as well - in our heads simultaneously.
posted by AdamCSnider at 7:41 PM on August 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
I've yet to see anyone in this thread "defending" American levels of corruption in any way, shape or form. I imagine it is possible for most of the folk here to hold two separate thoughts - China's corruption is worse, there is room for improvement here in America as well - in our heads simultaneously.
posted by AdamCSnider at 7:41 PM on August 19, 2011 [3 favorites]
Yeah, but it's still kind of disheartening to realize that we're defending accusations of corruption with "well, we may be corrupt, but look on the bright side: at least we're not as corrupt as . . ."
That's not what we're doing. I may not be a jingoistic neo-con, or have any illusions of America being a paradise, but not only am I damn glad that the American government continues to have a proselytizing approach wiht other countries, vis-a-vis such aspects of American law and culture as what the Chinese are talking about here.
And I really wish leftists who make the "oh, we're just as bad" comments open up their eyes and learn just how fucking worse their lives can be if they had the misfortune to be born have-nots in other countries. Yes, we are just as bad, as in we're the same species of bald ape. But thanks to 200 years of effort and a Judeo-Christian-Anglo-Saxon-Greco-Roman-with-a-pinch-of-Arab heritage, we have a system of government and economics that does a better job of keeping our worst instincts at bay, compared to many other countries. A system worth evangelizing, I dare say, by sending our officials out to Starbucks carrying their own goddamn backpacks.
posted by ocschwar at 7:43 PM on August 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
That's not what we're doing. I may not be a jingoistic neo-con, or have any illusions of America being a paradise, but not only am I damn glad that the American government continues to have a proselytizing approach wiht other countries, vis-a-vis such aspects of American law and culture as what the Chinese are talking about here.
And I really wish leftists who make the "oh, we're just as bad" comments open up their eyes and learn just how fucking worse their lives can be if they had the misfortune to be born have-nots in other countries. Yes, we are just as bad, as in we're the same species of bald ape. But thanks to 200 years of effort and a Judeo-Christian-Anglo-Saxon-Greco-Roman-with-a-pinch-of-Arab heritage, we have a system of government and economics that does a better job of keeping our worst instincts at bay, compared to many other countries. A system worth evangelizing, I dare say, by sending our officials out to Starbucks carrying their own goddamn backpacks.
posted by ocschwar at 7:43 PM on August 19, 2011 [7 favorites]
I could really go for some coffee now.
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 7:46 PM on August 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by These Premises Are Alarmed at 7:46 PM on August 19, 2011 [4 favorites]
Say that certain forms of corruption and fraud have been perpetrated for so long that the structures that host them have developed stochastic defense mechanisms to deflect scrutiny and minimize any association with criminality. The argument can be made that American corruption is institutionalized.
The Chinese will learn the American way - don't give the common man easily identifiable grievances and conduct business as usual.
posted by vicx at 7:50 PM on August 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
The Chinese will learn the American way - don't give the common man easily identifiable grievances and conduct business as usual.
posted by vicx at 7:50 PM on August 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
I'm sure America isn't as bad as China but it's hard to get all evangelical about it when you have witnessed police corruption go unpunished. When you see children sold to prisons. When you see the interests of corporations put over those of people.
So yeah.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 7:55 PM on August 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
So yeah.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 7:55 PM on August 19, 2011 [2 favorites]
Every time something like this happens, my internet connection here in Kunming goes to shit (wenzhou train wreck, posturing with Vietnam over the South China Sea, allowing the RMB to appreciate 1% against the dollar).
I'm assuming that the authorities are making the net unreliable to somehow make it a little harder for netizens to post to Sina Weibo?
I wish Biden would go home already so I can get some work done!
posted by joshwa at 8:01 PM on August 19, 2011
I'm assuming that the authorities are making the net unreliable to somehow make it a little harder for netizens to post to Sina Weibo?
I wish Biden would go home already so I can get some work done!
posted by joshwa at 8:01 PM on August 19, 2011
When you see children sold to prisons.
The judge is doing life in prison. And some Chinese is being executed tomorrow on trumped up charges so that a rich guy can get a kidney.
posted by ocschwar at 8:05 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
The judge is doing life in prison. And some Chinese is being executed tomorrow on trumped up charges so that a rich guy can get a kidney.
posted by ocschwar at 8:05 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
The judge is doing life in prison.
And some Chinese corruption gets punished with death, while kids are still being sent to for-profit prisons in the US.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:08 PM on August 19, 2011
And some Chinese corruption gets punished with death, while kids are still being sent to for-profit prisons in the US.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:08 PM on August 19, 2011
(And some American prisoner has just been raped and wishes you would kill him)
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:14 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:14 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
What a lucky break this is for Locke, who through no effort of his own arrives at his new job with this buzz of popular support from the Chinese. Sure it will piss off the Chinese government, but what are they gonna do? It would be nice to see Locke build on this.
posted by LarryC at 8:14 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by LarryC at 8:14 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
For you sir, I have two words "animal farm".
posted by ding-dong at 8:15 PM on August 19, 2011
"
I thought communism was all about egalitarianism. I guess in their heart of hearts, the Chinese are still a feudal society where the ruling classes are served by serfs.
posted by Renoroc at 4:42 PM on August 19 [+] [!]
"
posted by ding-dong at 8:15 PM on August 19, 2011
when you're the masters of the universe, you don't have to front
posted by pyramid termite at 9:12 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by pyramid termite at 9:12 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Is it okay to feel that the level of corruption in America is much, much lower than in China, while still being pissed-off at how much legislation and the directing of federal money is flat-out bought?
posted by benito.strauss at 9:47 PM on August 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by benito.strauss at 9:47 PM on August 19, 2011 [5 favorites]
No. Maybe.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:03 PM on August 19, 2011
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 10:03 PM on August 19, 2011
I thought communism was all about egalitarianism. I guess in their heart of hearts, the Chinese are still a feudal society where the ruling classes are served by serfs.
That's exactly right! China has never been a Communist company, but in name only. Same with all the other so-called "Communist" nations. Essentially, they're corrupt capitalist nations that end up being less equal than they were before their particular brand of corrupt capitalism was forced in.
posted by Vibrissae at 10:18 PM on August 19, 2011
That's exactly right! China has never been a Communist company, but in name only. Same with all the other so-called "Communist" nations. Essentially, they're corrupt capitalist nations that end up being less equal than they were before their particular brand of corrupt capitalism was forced in.
posted by Vibrissae at 10:18 PM on August 19, 2011
"communist company", above, was supposed to be "communist country", but in light of what I wrote "communist company" is appropos
posted by Vibrissae at 10:19 PM on August 19, 2011
posted by Vibrissae at 10:19 PM on August 19, 2011
Most Chinese dynasties at least paid lip service to some form of Confucianism, which though hierarchical, also stated that emperors and the scholar-gentry (the ruling class in China) were to act as examples for the people and also had responsibilities. In fact, the most famous protege of Confucius, Mencius, has said that rulers should be overthrown or even killed if they fail in their responsibility to the people.
Now, I'm even less of an expert on European Middle Ages history than I am on Chinese history, but European rule by kings didn't really allow for overthrow or reform if you got stuck with a crappy king. Even the Magna Carta only allowed barons to make that decision.
Feudal theory actually loads lieges with responsibilities to their vassals; the lord of the manor out hunting is supposed to be rooted in your liege killing wild boars, wolves, and other dangerous animals so his farmers aren't being killed. He's responsible for hunting bandits, defence, and so on and so forth.
Obviously in practise the guys with the weapons and troops are inclined to pay more attention to the responsibilities of the vassal to the liege, but that's not exactly an exception in history.
posted by rodgerd at 11:50 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
Now, I'm even less of an expert on European Middle Ages history than I am on Chinese history, but European rule by kings didn't really allow for overthrow or reform if you got stuck with a crappy king. Even the Magna Carta only allowed barons to make that decision.
Feudal theory actually loads lieges with responsibilities to their vassals; the lord of the manor out hunting is supposed to be rooted in your liege killing wild boars, wolves, and other dangerous animals so his farmers aren't being killed. He's responsible for hunting bandits, defence, and so on and so forth.
Obviously in practise the guys with the weapons and troops are inclined to pay more attention to the responsibilities of the vassal to the liege, but that's not exactly an exception in history.
posted by rodgerd at 11:50 PM on August 19, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think people who think that we (in the US) have a problem with corruption that is comparable to China clearly do not understand the magnitude of corruption in other countries.
Imagine that you had to bring a gift every single time you went to see a government official of any kind. And that the system made sure that you didn't just stand, nameless, in a line, but had to see some official. Often.
Want to move into another apartment? Go see an official; bring some money. Want to buy real estate? There are inspectors for five different things who all want at least a bit to give you the all-clear, forms that require stamps by someone in the regional office, and some final petition that you have to file because someone objected to your purchase -- one, of course, that has to be done in the office of the regional head of private property transfers and well known for the fact that you need to bring 1% of the transaction price, in cash, to get anything signed.
This, folks, is a corrupt system.
What we have, instead, is a system that is possibly corrupt. We have a lot of appearances of impropriety, and probably fairly few of them are actual improper and corrupt behavior.
It should be our goal to avoid both the widespread corruption as well as widespread appearance of being corrupt. If there is a revolving door in Washington then it's pretty difficult to prove that you -- as an individual walking through that door -- are not corrupt. These are certainly things we can fix.
But, honestly, our society and our government officials are to the 99.9th percentile lawful and above petty corruption. Some may inhabit the gray zone but... well... that's why it's gray: it's arguable territory, and we live in a land of tolerating many opinions.
posted by haykinson at 12:02 AM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
Imagine that you had to bring a gift every single time you went to see a government official of any kind. And that the system made sure that you didn't just stand, nameless, in a line, but had to see some official. Often.
Want to move into another apartment? Go see an official; bring some money. Want to buy real estate? There are inspectors for five different things who all want at least a bit to give you the all-clear, forms that require stamps by someone in the regional office, and some final petition that you have to file because someone objected to your purchase -- one, of course, that has to be done in the office of the regional head of private property transfers and well known for the fact that you need to bring 1% of the transaction price, in cash, to get anything signed.
This, folks, is a corrupt system.
What we have, instead, is a system that is possibly corrupt. We have a lot of appearances of impropriety, and probably fairly few of them are actual improper and corrupt behavior.
It should be our goal to avoid both the widespread corruption as well as widespread appearance of being corrupt. If there is a revolving door in Washington then it's pretty difficult to prove that you -- as an individual walking through that door -- are not corrupt. These are certainly things we can fix.
But, honestly, our society and our government officials are to the 99.9th percentile lawful and above petty corruption. Some may inhabit the gray zone but... well... that's why it's gray: it's arguable territory, and we live in a land of tolerating many opinions.
posted by haykinson at 12:02 AM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
when you're the masters of the universe, you don't have to front
Prince Adam and his alter ego disagree.
posted by Hoopo at 12:06 AM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
Prince Adam and his alter ego disagree.
posted by Hoopo at 12:06 AM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
Transparency International has been publishing the Corruption Perceptions Index for about a decade now.
The US is at 22, China is at 78. So there is a large difference between perceived corruption in China and the US.
But that doesn't let the US off the hooks. We've been dropping for some time. We feel out of the top 20 last year, and the top 10 or so are dominated by Nordic countries, who have also recently been rated highly on a lot of other surveys, including happiness and life-satisfaction.
So, yeah, we beat China. That doesn't mean we don't have problems.
posted by formless at 12:19 AM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
The US is at 22, China is at 78. So there is a large difference between perceived corruption in China and the US.
But that doesn't let the US off the hooks. We've been dropping for some time. We feel out of the top 20 last year, and the top 10 or so are dominated by Nordic countries, who have also recently been rated highly on a lot of other surveys, including happiness and life-satisfaction.
So, yeah, we beat China. That doesn't mean we don't have problems.
posted by formless at 12:19 AM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
William Hinton, who'd worked in the Chinese countryside before and after Liberation and during land reform, made a telling observation in, IIRC, Shenfan, which he wrote after a return to the same village some decades later. He'd seen in his earlier sojourn that Party officials living or working in the villages would live in farmer's homes or set up in disused tumble-down temples and the like, working out a document satchel with villagers coming and going as they pleased to bring problems and queries. During a later return visit in the 1970s he noted that the rural Party offices built post-1949 were usually three-courtyard compounds with militia guards picketed at the gates, presenting a daunting prospect for any commune member wanting to speak to the officials working in the innermost offices - the notion of officials as a class apart now visible even in the architecture.
posted by Abiezer at 12:51 AM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Abiezer at 12:51 AM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
dominated by Nordic countries
hey, Australia, Singapore and New Zealand (#2!) are all in the top ten. So is Canada, so it's not a North American cultural weakness.
I'd be more concerned that Hong Kong is ranked higher than the US.
I don't believe there is systemic corruption affecting individuals directly in the US, but I think it is pretty common in mainland China. I would suggest shady deals are reasonably common at higher levels in both places.
posted by bystander at 1:51 AM on August 20, 2011
hey, Australia, Singapore and New Zealand (#2!) are all in the top ten. So is Canada, so it's not a North American cultural weakness.
I'd be more concerned that Hong Kong is ranked higher than the US.
I don't believe there is systemic corruption affecting individuals directly in the US, but I think it is pretty common in mainland China. I would suggest shady deals are reasonably common at higher levels in both places.
posted by bystander at 1:51 AM on August 20, 2011
Well, it's great that we're "better" than China in the corruption thing, but just yesterday three men had to plead "guilty" to a crime they obviously didn't commit just so one of them wouldn't be murdered by the state, all so said state wouldn't lose face and have to pay restitution for locking them up for nearly 20 years.
The person currently most likely to be president let another innocent man be murdered by his state, and effectively shut down the inquiry that followed.
Our current president and the one before him, have several foreign nationals permanently locked up who have never and will never be charged with a crime. The good news is that our current president claims that he's not actively torturing them (you know, beyond having them locked away for the rest of their lives for the crime of being brown in a country full of brown people), unlike the previous president.
It's great that we're "better" than China when it comes to not having to bribe everyone when we need something done, but lets not go sucking each others' dicks, yet (because that sheriff in Arizona would probably lock us up in his concentration camp in the middle of the desert).
posted by dirigibleman at 2:04 AM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
The person currently most likely to be president let another innocent man be murdered by his state, and effectively shut down the inquiry that followed.
Our current president and the one before him, have several foreign nationals permanently locked up who have never and will never be charged with a crime. The good news is that our current president claims that he's not actively torturing them (you know, beyond having them locked away for the rest of their lives for the crime of being brown in a country full of brown people), unlike the previous president.
It's great that we're "better" than China when it comes to not having to bribe everyone when we need something done, but lets not go sucking each others' dicks, yet (because that sheriff in Arizona would probably lock us up in his concentration camp in the middle of the desert).
posted by dirigibleman at 2:04 AM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
The restaurant Biden ate in is just round the corner, and I read that today it's got queues round the block because people were most surprised you could get lunch for five for only CNY79.
posted by Abiezer at 2:37 AM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Abiezer at 2:37 AM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
Our current president and the one before him, have several foreign nationals permanently locked up who have never and will never be charged with a crime. The good news is that our current president claims that he's not actively torturing them (you know, beyond having them locked away for the rest of their lives for the crime of being brown in a country full of brown people), unlike the previous president.
This is not evidence of systemic corruption. A large part of the population desire this and wish it would go further. Democracy at work and all that.
It's great that we're "better" than China when it comes to not having to bribe everyone when we need something done...
No need for scare quotes. There is good statistical and anecdotal evidence to back up this claim.
...but lets not go sucking each others' dicks, yet...
So far, several people in this thread have expressed their gratefulness of one of the things that the United States does seem to get at least mostly right. No one is excusing any of the heinous crimes of the crimes of the US Government. We all agree they are despicable. The intent here is to maintain a sense of perspective in these matters so that we don't...
(because that sheriff in Arizona would probably lock us up in his concentration camp in the middle of the desert).
...get carried away with our angry hyperbole and write something that reads as seriously disrespectful to all those who have faced (and all those who still do face) horrible persecution under the heel of real tyranny.
*sigh*
posted by Seiten Taisei at 3:00 AM on August 20, 2011
This is not evidence of systemic corruption. A large part of the population desire this and wish it would go further. Democracy at work and all that.
It's great that we're "better" than China when it comes to not having to bribe everyone when we need something done...
No need for scare quotes. There is good statistical and anecdotal evidence to back up this claim.
...but lets not go sucking each others' dicks, yet...
So far, several people in this thread have expressed their gratefulness of one of the things that the United States does seem to get at least mostly right. No one is excusing any of the heinous crimes of the crimes of the US Government. We all agree they are despicable. The intent here is to maintain a sense of perspective in these matters so that we don't...
(because that sheriff in Arizona would probably lock us up in his concentration camp in the middle of the desert).
...get carried away with our angry hyperbole and write something that reads as seriously disrespectful to all those who have faced (and all those who still do face) horrible persecution under the heel of real tyranny.
*sigh*
posted by Seiten Taisei at 3:00 AM on August 20, 2011
I guess you have to be some really big shot for this to be noticed or even approved of ...
Was out there last year with a team of Finns (who have little or no hierarchy/status plays) and the leader was on the floor cutting material for a sauna they were building on the roof when a group of Chinese walked in. My perception was that they were not impressed and in their eyes he had lost face as they made their opinion quite clear in subtle (and not so subtle) ways during the proceedings over the next few days.
posted by infini at 3:14 AM on August 20, 2011
Was out there last year with a team of Finns (who have little or no hierarchy/status plays) and the leader was on the floor cutting material for a sauna they were building on the roof when a group of Chinese walked in. My perception was that they were not impressed and in their eyes he had lost face as they made their opinion quite clear in subtle (and not so subtle) ways during the proceedings over the next few days.
posted by infini at 3:14 AM on August 20, 2011
>Transparency International has been publishing the Corruption Perceptions Index for about a decade now.
So an organization with strong links to the World Bank, founded by Western elites in a country whose second biggest export market is the US has ranked the US above China for corruption? I'm shocked!
And you'll be shocked too when you learn that the rankings are based on secondary indications of corruption, for example, questions like "Do you trust the government?" and "Is corruption a big problem in your country?" Really, Americans rank America favorably?
>May I gently suggest that the naked cash bribe in an unelected system is far worse than the fact that a Washington insider left a company for government again.
May I suggest that Duke Cunningham, William Jefferson, and Ted Stevens, to name just a few from recent memory, are only an exception because they were caught red-handed.
And if you think local corruption or corruption of non-elected officials is a foreign issue, you may want to look into cases like Diane Wilkerson and John Connolly in the 24th least corrupt state of Massachusetts.
posted by McGuillicuddy at 3:35 AM on August 20, 2011 [4 favorites]
So an organization with strong links to the World Bank, founded by Western elites in a country whose second biggest export market is the US has ranked the US above China for corruption? I'm shocked!
And you'll be shocked too when you learn that the rankings are based on secondary indications of corruption, for example, questions like "Do you trust the government?" and "Is corruption a big problem in your country?" Really, Americans rank America favorably?
>May I gently suggest that the naked cash bribe in an unelected system is far worse than the fact that a Washington insider left a company for government again.
May I suggest that Duke Cunningham, William Jefferson, and Ted Stevens, to name just a few from recent memory, are only an exception because they were caught red-handed.
And if you think local corruption or corruption of non-elected officials is a foreign issue, you may want to look into cases like Diane Wilkerson and John Connolly in the 24th least corrupt state of Massachusetts.
posted by McGuillicuddy at 3:35 AM on August 20, 2011 [4 favorites]
From the paper "Public Corruption in the United States" by the publication Corporate Crime Reporter that I linked above, there is the following pertinent quote related to international survey-based rankings of corruption:
If you're not familiar with the pay-to-play nature of politics in Massachusetts, and the City of Boston, you might be shocked to learn how rampant it is and how deep it goes. Suffice to say, the last three Speakers of the House Representatives in Massachusetts have resigned because of criminal charges, all related to public corruption or obstruction of justice (Charles Flaherty, Thomas Finneran, Salvatore DiMasi). The ongoing investigation of corruption at the MA Probation Department is bound to ensnare more MA lawmakers, past and present, including allegations against the current Speaker of the House Robert DeLeo and former state treasurer Timothy Cahill.
posted by McGuillicuddy at 4:46 AM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
Because the Justice Department’s statistics on corruption in the United States have rarely been publicized, the world might not understand the true extent of the decay here in the United States.The paper also brought to mind a few more names from our illustrious recent past, such as Governor John G. Rowland and Mayor Buddy Cianci of Providence, Rhode Island. During Rowlands' administration in Connecticut, 3 mayors and the state Treasurer were sent to prison.
If you're not familiar with the pay-to-play nature of politics in Massachusetts, and the City of Boston, you might be shocked to learn how rampant it is and how deep it goes. Suffice to say, the last three Speakers of the House Representatives in Massachusetts have resigned because of criminal charges, all related to public corruption or obstruction of justice (Charles Flaherty, Thomas Finneran, Salvatore DiMasi). The ongoing investigation of corruption at the MA Probation Department is bound to ensnare more MA lawmakers, past and present, including allegations against the current Speaker of the House Robert DeLeo and former state treasurer Timothy Cahill.
posted by McGuillicuddy at 4:46 AM on August 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
I can only hope this will mean that backpacks become fashionable. I'm tired of killing my shoulders and spine with messenger bags and the like.
posted by Yowser at 5:35 AM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Yowser at 5:35 AM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
I no longer roll up my shirt sleeves because I don't want look like a politician trying to identify with and co-opt hard working everymen.
posted by srboisvert at 5:56 AM on August 20, 2011
posted by srboisvert at 5:56 AM on August 20, 2011
Anyone know any more objective measures of corruption than the perception index linked by formless?
I'd roughly agree with Scandinavia < Germany < U.K. < U.S. < France < Spain < Greece < ... < China < ... < Somalia, but that's because my perceptions were formed by the same stimulus as everyone else. There is for example qualitatively more corruption in Italy, Spain, and Greece, since their political parties never change leadership, but I don't really know about the ordering of France and the U.S.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:22 AM on August 20, 2011
I'd roughly agree with Scandinavia < Germany < U.K. < U.S. < France < Spain < Greece < ... < China < ... < Somalia, but that's because my perceptions were formed by the same stimulus as everyone else. There is for example qualitatively more corruption in Italy, Spain, and Greece, since their political parties never change leadership, but I don't really know about the ordering of France and the U.S.
posted by jeffburdges at 8:22 AM on August 20, 2011
I was going to post that as some funny snark, but then I went to link Britney's twitter feed. So I read a little of it, just to make sure. I am pretty sure that's actually her.
posted by Xoebe at 9:15 AM on August 20, 2011
Chinese public servants seem to take cash money (or other benefits) straight up for certifying a particular piece of paper to let people advance unfairly (GaoKap examination scores, uni acceptance) or profit by shirking laws (overlook inspections on waste disposal or quality control in factories).
American public servants seem to take orders from corporate masters, using those funds to remain elected so they can continue to take orders from said entities. Once politician is tired of being Important, they get hired as sinecures with exorbitant salaries. Not to mention funneling campaign funds to friends as parts of the campaign at highly inflated rates.
I'd argue that American public servants have a superior and more highly nuanced command of corruption. Long term planning.
posted by porpoise at 7:32 PM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
American public servants seem to take orders from corporate masters, using those funds to remain elected so they can continue to take orders from said entities. Once politician is tired of being Important, they get hired as sinecures with exorbitant salaries. Not to mention funneling campaign funds to friends as parts of the campaign at highly inflated rates.
I'd argue that American public servants have a superior and more highly nuanced command of corruption. Long term planning.
posted by porpoise at 7:32 PM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — The Securities and Exchange Commission may have destroyed documents and compromised enforcement cases involving activity at large banks and hedge funds during the height of the financial crisis in 2008, according to allegations made by a lawmaker on Wednesday.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 7:52 PM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by furiousxgeorge at 7:52 PM on August 20, 2011 [1 favorite]
So wait, why are some people in this thread trying to show how corrupt the US is? Is it an attempt to show that we're tougher than the Chinese? That we're still number 1 still, in some way?
I mean, I like to wallow in my own shit as much as the next person, but I thought we were talking about China here?
posted by FJT at 8:41 PM on August 20, 2011
I mean, I like to wallow in my own shit as much as the next person, but I thought we were talking about China here?
posted by FJT at 8:41 PM on August 20, 2011
We are talking about how China (accurately) views the US political system as less corrupt and more down to earth. It's relevant to the discussion to point out the situation in the US still isn't all that rosy and perhaps not worth evangelizing about all that much.
WSJ: All told, the Dallas Morning News has found that some $16 million from the tech fund has gone to firms in which major Perry contributors were either investors or officers, and $27 million from the fund has gone to companies founded or advised by six advisory board members. The tangle of interests surrounding the fund has raised eyebrows throughout the state, especially among conservatives who think the fund is a misplaced use of taxpayer dollars to start with.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:50 PM on August 20, 2011
WSJ: All told, the Dallas Morning News has found that some $16 million from the tech fund has gone to firms in which major Perry contributors were either investors or officers, and $27 million from the fund has gone to companies founded or advised by six advisory board members. The tangle of interests surrounding the fund has raised eyebrows throughout the state, especially among conservatives who think the fund is a misplaced use of taxpayer dollars to start with.
posted by furiousxgeorge at 8:50 PM on August 20, 2011
WASHINGTON (MarketWatch) — The Securities and Exchange Commission may have destroyed documents and compromised enforcement cases involving activity at large banks and hedge funds during the height of the financial crisis in 2008, according to allegations made by a lawmaker on Wednesday.
Matt Taibbi just wrote an excellent piece about this: A whistleblower claims that over the past two decades, the agency has destroyed records of thousands of investigations, whitewashing the files of some of the nation's worst financial criminals.
posted by homunculus at 8:57 PM on August 20, 2011
Matt Taibbi just wrote an excellent piece about this: A whistleblower claims that over the past two decades, the agency has destroyed records of thousands of investigations, whitewashing the files of some of the nation's worst financial criminals.
posted by homunculus at 8:57 PM on August 20, 2011
I really dislike the phrase "the Chinese". In the last several weeks I have heard two utterances of it, once during a meeting and another time while walking down a street. There's something impersonal about the way it sounds. Grammatically it is more adjective than noun. Linguistically it is too overloaded and context sensitive. It is a crude word, like saying "the Slavic peoples" when in a conversation one is really specifically referring to, say, Ukranians.
/endrant
posted by polymodus at 8:59 PM on August 20, 2011
/endrant
posted by polymodus at 8:59 PM on August 20, 2011
What would be the better term for, "The generalized citizens of the nation state of China?"
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:09 PM on August 20, 2011
posted by furiousxgeorge at 9:09 PM on August 20, 2011
So it appears the Chinese language itself has half a dozen ways for "the Chinese" to refer to themselves. I'd say that's a starting point.
posted by polymodus at 9:14 PM on August 20, 2011
posted by polymodus at 9:14 PM on August 20, 2011
It is a crude word, like saying "the Slavic peoples" when in a conversation one is really specifically referring to, say, Ukranians.
Yes, Wikipedia has covered this too. It also doesn't help that the CPC also likes to use the term.
Things would be easier if China were still an empire. Being Chinese would simply be defined as if you were loyal to the Emperor or not. None of this nation-state or ethnic peoples complexity.
posted by FJT at 10:09 PM on August 20, 2011
Yes, Wikipedia has covered this too. It also doesn't help that the CPC also likes to use the term.
Things would be easier if China were still an empire. Being Chinese would simply be defined as if you were loyal to the Emperor or not. None of this nation-state or ethnic peoples complexity.
posted by FJT at 10:09 PM on August 20, 2011
So it appears the Chinese language itself has half a dozen ways for "the Chinese" to refer to themselves. I'd say that's a starting point.
Okay, so the term we should use is...?
posted by furiousxgeorge at 10:23 PM on August 20, 2011
Okay, so the term we should use is...?
posted by furiousxgeorge at 10:23 PM on August 20, 2011
Right, and English has 50+ ways for Americans to refer to ourselves (Montanian, Idahoan, Rhode Islander, etc. etc. (this ignores all the regionalisms (Southerner, Easterner, North Westerner) and the various tribal affilations(Nez Perce, Creole, Cherokee)) but when we are out and about generally speaking we are Americans. "The Chinese" is a useful term because it lets us talk about the peoples who are currently living under the Chinese government. All of them. If we need to talk about a subset of the group then we use whatever the preferred nomenclature is. The government of China apparently wants us to use the term Chinese to refer to all the disparate people under its' umbrella so we do. If tomorrow the name of China changed to Jerry everyone operating under that system of government would be Jerries. Officially at any rate. Really everyone would be busy freaking the fuck out that China was playing linguistic games like that.
posted by Peztopiary at 4:04 AM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Peztopiary at 4:04 AM on August 21, 2011 [1 favorite]
And Mao murdered ten times as many people as Hitler ever could.
Hitler personally ordered the direct, deliberate, industrialized murder of at least eleven million people, including six million Jews.
Although Mao was the most important figure in Chinese politics during two major famines, which were caused by policies he promoted and which led to a lot of deaths by violence as well as starvation, this statement is ridiculously hyperbolic. People get really silly about Mao nowadays.
posted by wwwwwhatt at 5:17 AM on August 21, 2011
Hitler personally ordered the direct, deliberate, industrialized murder of at least eleven million people, including six million Jews.
Although Mao was the most important figure in Chinese politics during two major famines, which were caused by policies he promoted and which led to a lot of deaths by violence as well as starvation, this statement is ridiculously hyperbolic. People get really silly about Mao nowadays.
posted by wwwwwhatt at 5:17 AM on August 21, 2011
Correction: two major upheavals, but only one famine.
posted by wwwwwhatt at 5:19 AM on August 21, 2011
posted by wwwwwhatt at 5:19 AM on August 21, 2011
"If we need to talk about a subset of the group then we use whatever the preferred nomenclature is."
I see what you did there.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:46 AM on August 22, 2011
I see what you did there.
posted by entropicamericana at 8:46 AM on August 22, 2011
I thought communism was all about egalitarianism. I guess in their heart of hearts, the Chinese are still a feudal society where the ruling classes are served by serfs.
I find myself unable to read Renoroc's post as anything but dry sarcasm. If, instead, Renoroc is so incredibly naive and uninformed that (s)he believes communism actually encourages egalitarianism (in any known communist state government whatsoever), then switch my Favorite vote to "bugger off, you twit."
But, seriously: I thought Beijing only wanted its citizens to be equally happy, regardless of connections and status. That's what they said!
posted by IAmBroom at 1:58 PM on August 22, 2011
I find myself unable to read Renoroc's post as anything but dry sarcasm. If, instead, Renoroc is so incredibly naive and uninformed that (s)he believes communism actually encourages egalitarianism (in any known communist state government whatsoever), then switch my Favorite vote to "bugger off, you twit."
But, seriously: I thought Beijing only wanted its citizens to be equally happy, regardless of connections and status. That's what they said!
posted by IAmBroom at 1:58 PM on August 22, 2011
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posted by indubitable at 4:41 PM on August 19, 2011 [4 favorites]