The New Gypsies
August 25, 2011 7:21 AM Subscribe
Modern-day, horse-drawn travellers. And Kate Moss (both links to photo sets that get sort of NSFW). By some fellow whose resume kind of makes it sound like I ought to have heard of him.
Whatever, the pictures are neat.
Whatever, the pictures are neat.
The photo of the proud mother holding her baby, I find is quite striking.
posted by Meatafoecure at 7:38 AM on August 25, 2011
posted by Meatafoecure at 7:38 AM on August 25, 2011
Where is it even possible to travel by horse-drawn wagon?
Pennsylvania?
posted by yerfatma at 7:44 AM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
Pennsylvania?
posted by yerfatma at 7:44 AM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
Where is it even possible to travel by horse-drawn wagon?
Pretty much everywhere beyond suburbia?
posted by Sys Rq at 7:47 AM on August 25, 2011 [6 favorites]
Pretty much everywhere beyond suburbia?
posted by Sys Rq at 7:47 AM on August 25, 2011 [6 favorites]
You can order a gypsy wagon online.
http://gypsywaggons.co.uk/varforsale.htm
Some of the pictures are so enticting, I wish the collects had a little bit of description accompanying them. Like when and where and why or even who in the case of the protraits.
posted by Gwynarra at 7:49 AM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
http://gypsywaggons.co.uk/varforsale.htm
Some of the pictures are so enticting, I wish the collects had a little bit of description accompanying them. Like when and where and why or even who in the case of the protraits.
posted by Gwynarra at 7:49 AM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
Where is it even possible to travel by horse-drawn wagon?
Talk to the mud-caked penis.
posted by swift at 7:49 AM on August 25, 2011 [6 favorites]
Talk to the mud-caked penis.
posted by swift at 7:49 AM on August 25, 2011 [6 favorites]
They're like gypsy Juggalos! Well, only one, really. The one with the clown mask. And not even him really. But they did make me think of the post-apocalyptic future we'll all one day live in.
posted by jasonsmall at 7:50 AM on August 25, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by jasonsmall at 7:50 AM on August 25, 2011 [5 favorites]
Quite lovely. I think they should pick up a gypsy dentist.
posted by chairface at 7:53 AM on August 25, 2011
posted by chairface at 7:53 AM on August 25, 2011
"New Gypsies" my arse. Trustafarians and Hippies would be a more accurate description. Or "People with an unhealthy fixation on a lifestyle that never existed. Also who like the Levellers."
posted by seanyboy at 7:56 AM on August 25, 2011 [8 favorites]
posted by seanyboy at 7:56 AM on August 25, 2011 [8 favorites]
Where is it even possible to travel by horse-drawn wagon?
England/Ireland, I believe. They're referred to as "Travelers" in some of the pics, which is the Irish term for what we'd call gypsies.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:56 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
England/Ireland, I believe. They're referred to as "Travelers" in some of the pics, which is the Irish term for what we'd call gypsies.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:56 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Travellers are not the same folk as the Roma. They have similar lifestyles, but are culturally and ethnically distinct.
posted by bonehead at 7:58 AM on August 25, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by bonehead at 7:58 AM on August 25, 2011 [5 favorites]
Heavily reminiscent, to me, of T Gilliam's Imaginarium of Doctor Parnassus. Which is not to say that gypsies can't exist in their own right. I mean what is web surfing but indoor gypsy-ism?
::bong bubbles::
But really, here's a picture from the film.
posted by obscurator at 7:58 AM on August 25, 2011
::bong bubbles::
But really, here's a picture from the film.
posted by obscurator at 7:58 AM on August 25, 2011
And on [lack of] preview: some of the Irish travelers may not be "trustafarians", but may be descended from families that got turned out by landowners during the Famine and found they had an easier time on the road.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:58 AM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:58 AM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
One of these days I will learn to preview more carefuly...
Travellers are not the same folk as the Roma. They have similar lifestyles, but are culturally and ethnically distinct.
You're right; I tried to make that clear by saying that they were "what we'd call gypsies", because I think the term is used kind of interchangeably (incorrectly so). But you're right that I should have been more clear about that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:00 AM on August 25, 2011
Travellers are not the same folk as the Roma. They have similar lifestyles, but are culturally and ethnically distinct.
You're right; I tried to make that clear by saying that they were "what we'd call gypsies", because I think the term is used kind of interchangeably (incorrectly so). But you're right that I should have been more clear about that.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:00 AM on August 25, 2011
Irish Travellers (Irish: an lucht siúil, Shelta: Pavee) are a traditionally nomadic people of ethnic Irish origin, who maintain a separate language and set of traditions.[1][2] They live predominantly in Ireland, the United Kingdom and the United States of America.[3][4]
posted by KokuRyu at 8:05 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by KokuRyu at 8:05 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Most Travellers these days use cars and/or campers.
posted by bonehead at 8:09 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by bonehead at 8:09 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Neat photos, and on a possibly unrelated side note, i first heard of "travelers" reading Hellblazer, when Constantine goes on the run with a bunch of them. Since then i've read more about them, and i've found them fascinating. Not "gypsies" (the Roma, who hate that term, there was a girl at the university i took classes at that was one. Learned a lot from her), not "trustifarians" (i really hate that term, sort of a "you have money, so only i can say how you live, you can't choose it yourself." sort of thing.).
I am also very curious how photographers get in with certain groups, i know travelers aren't as hard as some groups, but i've seen ones where you can't even talk to them without threat of serious injury or death.
posted by usagizero at 8:10 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
I am also very curious how photographers get in with certain groups, i know travelers aren't as hard as some groups, but i've seen ones where you can't even talk to them without threat of serious injury or death.
posted by usagizero at 8:10 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
No 25 here appears to be one of the locations used for the "Kings Speech". Also, Gilbert & George, and possibly the Crays in there?
posted by pharm at 8:16 AM on August 25, 2011
posted by pharm at 8:16 AM on August 25, 2011
I lived on a traveller's site for a year or so in my youth, though don't think I really counted as one myself. I worked in a pub in the local town and was enticed to move onto the site by a lovely woman; when they moved on, I didn't, for reasons I won't bore you with.
Any road, even back then a few of the people were horse-drawn (most in motor-drawn caravans, old buses and the like). There'd been a big crackdown on the whole 'New Age traveller' scene (Battle of the Beanfield, Stonehenge etc.) and there was also a bit of a backlash in the public mood. Being horse-drawn generally didn't create the same negative response when you pitched up somewhere.
Trustafarians and Hippies would be a more accurate description.
There were certainly a few, but not by any means the majority of the lot I lived with. Lot of kids who'd grown up in care, like my then partner, and other people from working class backgrounds who couldn't or didn't want to fit into settled life.
posted by Abiezer at 8:18 AM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
Any road, even back then a few of the people were horse-drawn (most in motor-drawn caravans, old buses and the like). There'd been a big crackdown on the whole 'New Age traveller' scene (Battle of the Beanfield, Stonehenge etc.) and there was also a bit of a backlash in the public mood. Being horse-drawn generally didn't create the same negative response when you pitched up somewhere.
Trustafarians and Hippies would be a more accurate description.
There were certainly a few, but not by any means the majority of the lot I lived with. Lot of kids who'd grown up in care, like my then partner, and other people from working class backgrounds who couldn't or didn't want to fit into settled life.
posted by Abiezer at 8:18 AM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
Here is a wonderful resource of horse drawn caravans; you can still hire them for holidays in Ireland and wander the back roads at a sedate pace. In my youth my then girlfriend went off to look after Donovan's kids in the caravan he was then living in; travelling around the SW of England for 3 months.
posted by adamvasco at 8:36 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by adamvasco at 8:36 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Maybe I was a bit harsh there, but there needs to be a differentiation between people who are culturally Roma or Irish and those who (for whatever reasons) chosen to pick a historically fanciful new cultural identity.
Not wanting to fit into settled life should mean a bit more than co-opting an imagined Gypsy lifestyle with associated horse and cart trappings. At least the Amish seem to have a reason for eschewing petrol engines.
posted by seanyboy at 8:39 AM on August 25, 2011
Not wanting to fit into settled life should mean a bit more than co-opting an imagined Gypsy lifestyle with associated horse and cart trappings. At least the Amish seem to have a reason for eschewing petrol engines.
posted by seanyboy at 8:39 AM on August 25, 2011
They all have their reasons, seanyboy; they just don't particularly feel like they need to share those reasons with you.
posted by MrMoonPie at 8:42 AM on August 25, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by MrMoonPie at 8:42 AM on August 25, 2011 [5 favorites]
There are many traveler families in my town and folk tend to call them "diddies". It is supposedly the Roma name for travelers and has negative connotations. Travelers round here all live in modern caravans and have vans or 4x4s suitable for towing. They are also often quite keen to settle for long periods, or even permanently. There was a burial just last week for "Nana Rosie" which was a big traveler do, but she had actually lived in a house in town for several decades, rather than on site. A traveler family even ran a local pub for many years. Their lifestyle is far different from those pictures.
posted by Jehan at 8:46 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Jehan at 8:46 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Where I live, the roads are thick with Mennonites trundling around the countryside in horse drawn vehicles.
posted by unSane at 8:46 AM on August 25, 2011
posted by unSane at 8:46 AM on August 25, 2011
Where is it even possible to travel by horse-drawn wagon?
Horse-drawn carts are still relatively common all over South America, used as a cheap, sustainable way of moving stuff around. Even in Buenos Aires, outside of the centre, it's not uncommon to see a horse clip-clopping down the street pulling a cart full of cardboard for recycling.
posted by jontyjago at 8:47 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Horse-drawn carts are still relatively common all over South America, used as a cheap, sustainable way of moving stuff around. Even in Buenos Aires, outside of the centre, it's not uncommon to see a horse clip-clopping down the street pulling a cart full of cardboard for recycling.
posted by jontyjago at 8:47 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Not wanting to fit into settled life should mean a bit more than co-opting an imagined Gypsy lifestyle
What are the criteria for a more meaningful Gypsy lifestyle, then?
posted by freebird at 8:47 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
What are the criteria for a more meaningful Gypsy lifestyle, then?
posted by freebird at 8:47 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
What are the criteria for a more meaningful Gypsy lifestyle, then?
Being Roma, for starters.
posted by Brocktoon at 8:50 AM on August 25, 2011
Being Roma, for starters.
posted by Brocktoon at 8:50 AM on August 25, 2011
No good reasons - I'll warrant. And aggressive small minded reasons at that. Intellectually bereft anarchism as fashion statement. Luddites without any knowledge of why the machine would need smashing. Poseurs.
Never met a New Age Traveller I liked. Never met a new age traveller that wasn't sneering disdainfully at mainstream culture.
I haven't a problem with Roma or Irish. Just new age travellers.
posted by seanyboy at 8:52 AM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
Never met a New Age Traveller I liked. Never met a new age traveller that wasn't sneering disdainfully at mainstream culture.
I haven't a problem with Roma or Irish. Just new age travellers.
posted by seanyboy at 8:52 AM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
Hard to say, but it doesn't seem likely that the people in the photoset are "new age travellers".
posted by KokuRyu at 8:54 AM on August 25, 2011
posted by KokuRyu at 8:54 AM on August 25, 2011
There is a differentiation between the Roma & Irish travellers and the "new-age" travellers. It's in the word "new-age".
Short interview with Iain McKell here.
As long as I can remember "gypsy" has been a generic word for travellers, despite originally being particularly to the Roma. This lot are new to the "gypsy" lifestyle, hence "new gypsies". It's not complicated. But the sniping isn't about the word, but seems to be about knocking people that have chosen a different lifestyle, that maybe threatens the notion that we haven't got a choice about our lifestyles.
Never met a New Age Traveller I liked. Never met a new age traveller that wasn't sneering disdainfully at mainstream culture.
I haven't a problem with Roma or Irish. Just new age travellers.
You obviously haven't met very many new age travellers. Or Roma & Irish, for that matter. Not all people living on site are doing it to annoy you.
posted by criticalbill at 8:55 AM on August 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
Short interview with Iain McKell here.
As long as I can remember "gypsy" has been a generic word for travellers, despite originally being particularly to the Roma. This lot are new to the "gypsy" lifestyle, hence "new gypsies". It's not complicated. But the sniping isn't about the word, but seems to be about knocking people that have chosen a different lifestyle, that maybe threatens the notion that we haven't got a choice about our lifestyles.
Never met a New Age Traveller I liked. Never met a new age traveller that wasn't sneering disdainfully at mainstream culture.
I haven't a problem with Roma or Irish. Just new age travellers.
You obviously haven't met very many new age travellers. Or Roma & Irish, for that matter. Not all people living on site are doing it to annoy you.
posted by criticalbill at 8:55 AM on August 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
I'm not even sure why there has to be a discussion about how awful or annoying "new age travellers" are in this thread.
The photos are really good, and it's hard to imagine living a life like that, and with kids to boot. The mental toughness and stubbornness of those folks is hard to comprehend.
posted by KokuRyu at 8:59 AM on August 25, 2011
The photos are really good, and it's hard to imagine living a life like that, and with kids to boot. The mental toughness and stubbornness of those folks is hard to comprehend.
posted by KokuRyu at 8:59 AM on August 25, 2011
Interesting photos, the Traveller culture seems to be quite fascinating, whether it's traditional Roma or the Irish travellers or even these New Age travellers. I'd prefer if more of them were candid shots rather than posed portraits but to each their own.
However, the Kate Moss photoset just seemed exploitative though in a "let's bring a supermodel into a community on the margins of society, it will be edgy and authentic" way. It feels like many of the photoshoots with celebrities that visit people at the margins in foreign countries. A kinda adventure tourism feel. I don't think her presence at a traveller camp brough any new insight into the people there and seemed mainly a "interesting" backdrop for some Kate Moss photos.
posted by vuron at 9:06 AM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
However, the Kate Moss photoset just seemed exploitative though in a "let's bring a supermodel into a community on the margins of society, it will be edgy and authentic" way. It feels like many of the photoshoots with celebrities that visit people at the margins in foreign countries. A kinda adventure tourism feel. I don't think her presence at a traveller camp brough any new insight into the people there and seemed mainly a "interesting" backdrop for some Kate Moss photos.
posted by vuron at 9:06 AM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
However, the Kate Moss photoset just seemed exploitative though
Yeah, I thought so too.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:10 AM on August 25, 2011
Yeah, I thought so too.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:10 AM on August 25, 2011
At least when I lived in Ireland a few years ago, horses were still a pretty big part of the Traveller scene, at least judging by the Dublin horse market. Not caravans so much but lots of kids tearing around on ponies and carts. It didn't feel at all gentrified or hipsterish, absolutely the contrary (for instance, it was in the news for a shooting a few months ago). Into The West is a not-too-terribly romanticised movie about the culture.
posted by Erasmouse at 9:10 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Erasmouse at 9:10 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Yeah - sorry. Maybe got a bit carried away there.
Kate Moss fitted right in for me. Pretentiousness meets pretentiousness.
posted by seanyboy at 9:11 AM on August 25, 2011
Kate Moss fitted right in for me. Pretentiousness meets pretentiousness.
posted by seanyboy at 9:11 AM on August 25, 2011
Great photos, thanks.
You guys crack me up, all speculating on authenticity of the lifestyle and are these just contemptable hipsters or authentic Travellers (or Roma? Really? did you even look at the pictures?) Maybe it's some of each, you know? From the interview criticalbill found, the artist's intent is actually even more uncomfortable.
You guys crack me up, all speculating on authenticity of the lifestyle and are these just contemptable hipsters or authentic Travellers (or Roma? Really? did you even look at the pictures?) Maybe it's some of each, you know? From the interview criticalbill found, the artist's intent is actually even more uncomfortable.
This is a personal journey with new age modern travellers. The point being they have no history of Gypsy that’s what makes them interesting to me. That they have chosen to live by the road with horses keeping the tradition alive of really travelling and not staying in one place. They come from our culture so they are like us rather than the traditional travellers who are from different blood.posted by Nelson at 9:12 AM on August 25, 2011
I love the pictures, but have to agree with everyone else, the inclusion of Kate Moss seems kind of weird and random. I hesitate to use the word exploitative, but it sure gives me that squirmy feeling.
posted by Stagger Lee at 9:13 AM on August 25, 2011
posted by Stagger Lee at 9:13 AM on August 25, 2011
Where is it even possible to travel by horse-drawn wagon?
At least a couple times a year, my parents take a few days off work, hitch up a couple of their horses to the wagon (albeit a more of an American West style, rather than the Traveller/Gypsy style) and join up with a bunch of other people and drive around southwest PA, WV, OH, and MD, for a long weekend, sometimes longer.
There is still a reasonable sized 'scene' in southwestern PA among the farm/ranch folk concerning wagons, carriages, and training horse teams. Although where I grew up there was only a small local Amish/Mennonite population (the majority of them in central PA), their sage knowledge of training both horse and driver, blacksmithing, harnessing rigs, and maintenance of horse-drawn transportation is well respected by everyone who's in that scene. For example, my father needed to customize his harnesses for his new horse team, and the guy in town wanted $600 and two weeks to fit it. Instead, he just took his horses and harnesses to his go-to Amish guy down the road that we know, and in 30 minutes, it was masterfully fitted and adjusted, and IIRC, he refused to accept any more than $50 for his time, and only after some insistence on my dad's part. Accepting any more, he said, would have been 'a prideful sin.'
A well-trained horse team is not an easy thing to achieve. You just can't hitch up the two biggest horses you can find and go on your merry way. You need the right horses with the right attitude that have been trained in the right way to be able work together properly. Although they may look like they don't have much money, those horses the travelers/gypsies use are worth more than you think. Sure, it's not thoroughbred racehorse money, but they are worth far more than your average ranch horse. And I would wager their knowledge is at least as good as the Amish when it comes to training and harnessing.
posted by chambers at 9:13 AM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
At least a couple times a year, my parents take a few days off work, hitch up a couple of their horses to the wagon (albeit a more of an American West style, rather than the Traveller/Gypsy style) and join up with a bunch of other people and drive around southwest PA, WV, OH, and MD, for a long weekend, sometimes longer.
There is still a reasonable sized 'scene' in southwestern PA among the farm/ranch folk concerning wagons, carriages, and training horse teams. Although where I grew up there was only a small local Amish/Mennonite population (the majority of them in central PA), their sage knowledge of training both horse and driver, blacksmithing, harnessing rigs, and maintenance of horse-drawn transportation is well respected by everyone who's in that scene. For example, my father needed to customize his harnesses for his new horse team, and the guy in town wanted $600 and two weeks to fit it. Instead, he just took his horses and harnesses to his go-to Amish guy down the road that we know, and in 30 minutes, it was masterfully fitted and adjusted, and IIRC, he refused to accept any more than $50 for his time, and only after some insistence on my dad's part. Accepting any more, he said, would have been 'a prideful sin.'
A well-trained horse team is not an easy thing to achieve. You just can't hitch up the two biggest horses you can find and go on your merry way. You need the right horses with the right attitude that have been trained in the right way to be able work together properly. Although they may look like they don't have much money, those horses the travelers/gypsies use are worth more than you think. Sure, it's not thoroughbred racehorse money, but they are worth far more than your average ranch horse. And I would wager their knowledge is at least as good as the Amish when it comes to training and harnessing.
posted by chambers at 9:13 AM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
This is a personal journey with new age modern travellers. The point being they have no history of Gypsy that’s what makes them interesting to me. That they have chosen to live by the road with horses keeping the tradition alive of really travelling and not staying in one place. They come from our culture so they are like us rather than the traditional travellers who are from different blood.
That's awkward.
posted by Stagger Lee at 9:14 AM on August 25, 2011
That's awkward.
posted by Stagger Lee at 9:14 AM on August 25, 2011
Kate Moss fitted right in for me. Pretentiousness meets pretentiousness.
....You know how you apologized for getting carried away?....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:15 AM on August 25, 2011
....You know how you apologized for getting carried away?....
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:15 AM on August 25, 2011
This is a personal journey with new age modern travellers.
I stand corrected! Carry on..
posted by Erasmouse at 9:15 AM on August 25, 2011
I stand corrected! Carry on..
posted by Erasmouse at 9:15 AM on August 25, 2011
Where is it even possible to travel by horse-drawn wagon?
I know quite a few people in the SCA/LARP world, although I have no taste for that stuff myself. One of my acquaintances is apparently a world-ranked jousting competitor, although I had no idea that competitive jousting was even a thing. No, apparently once every year or two a group of guys with armour and lances and big horses congregate in Europe and hold themselves a good olde-fashioned tourney.
He had mentioned that the most recent tournament had been held in Poland. I asked how he transported his horse there from his home in Denmark. "I rode, of course." Yeah, I suppose that is the most obvious way to move 2200 lbs of horse.
Incidentally, before I knew about the jousting, I had always thought he was a remarkably restrained diner -- although he is a tall and broad-shouldered guy, he ate quite sparingly: salads, a bit of broiled chicken now and again, fruit, lots of water. A mutual friend filled me in on that: "He spent $35,000 on his platemail and he is terrified to put on weight and grow out of it. His wife would kill him."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:18 AM on August 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
I know quite a few people in the SCA/LARP world, although I have no taste for that stuff myself. One of my acquaintances is apparently a world-ranked jousting competitor, although I had no idea that competitive jousting was even a thing. No, apparently once every year or two a group of guys with armour and lances and big horses congregate in Europe and hold themselves a good olde-fashioned tourney.
He had mentioned that the most recent tournament had been held in Poland. I asked how he transported his horse there from his home in Denmark. "I rode, of course." Yeah, I suppose that is the most obvious way to move 2200 lbs of horse.
Incidentally, before I knew about the jousting, I had always thought he was a remarkably restrained diner -- although he is a tall and broad-shouldered guy, he ate quite sparingly: salads, a bit of broiled chicken now and again, fruit, lots of water. A mutual friend filled me in on that: "He spent $35,000 on his platemail and he is terrified to put on weight and grow out of it. His wife would kill him."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:18 AM on August 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
However, the Kate Moss photoset just seemed exploitative though
I agree. It was technically lovely, but I don't like seeing regular people used as props for supermodels. It kind of made me think of the hobo wedding. Anyone else?
When I was in Ireland in the 90s, I knew a Roma family that were based in Cork. They told me that Travelers began as ethnic Roma who rejected most of the more restrictive Roma traditions. (Roma have complicated food rules, sort of like keeping strictly kosher, and women aren't allowed to wash men's and women's clothing together, for example.) These ethic Roma kept up the traveling lifestyle, and intermarried with non-Roma, and over hundreds of years, they became the Travelers. I don't think there's any documentation for this, but that's the story I heard.
posted by Nibbly Fang at 9:20 AM on August 25, 2011
I agree. It was technically lovely, but I don't like seeing regular people used as props for supermodels. It kind of made me think of the hobo wedding. Anyone else?
When I was in Ireland in the 90s, I knew a Roma family that were based in Cork. They told me that Travelers began as ethnic Roma who rejected most of the more restrictive Roma traditions. (Roma have complicated food rules, sort of like keeping strictly kosher, and women aren't allowed to wash men's and women's clothing together, for example.) These ethic Roma kept up the traveling lifestyle, and intermarried with non-Roma, and over hundreds of years, they became the Travelers. I don't think there's any documentation for this, but that's the story I heard.
posted by Nibbly Fang at 9:20 AM on August 25, 2011
EmpressCallipygos: I think that comment was reasonably on topic. Or as on topic as someone saying that they think Kate Moss is being exploitative. We all colour the photographs with our preconceptions.
I think there's a huge difference between who I'm talking about and who you think I'm talking about BTW. This isn't some ancient but different subculture I'm attacking. It's something much newer. Someone above mentioned Juggalos. I think that's an apt simile.
posted by seanyboy at 9:22 AM on August 25, 2011
I think there's a huge difference between who I'm talking about and who you think I'm talking about BTW. This isn't some ancient but different subculture I'm attacking. It's something much newer. Someone above mentioned Juggalos. I think that's an apt simile.
posted by seanyboy at 9:22 AM on August 25, 2011
Kate Moss has the perfectest little nipples. They're adorable.
posted by Fister Roboto at 9:26 AM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Fister Roboto at 9:26 AM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
What are the criteria for a more meaningful Gypsy lifestyle, then?
Being Roma, for starters.
Ah, right: your genetic and racial heritage should totally determine what lifestyles you are allowed to embrace, check.
posted by freebird at 9:49 AM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
Being Roma, for starters.
Ah, right: your genetic and racial heritage should totally determine what lifestyles you are allowed to embrace, check.
posted by freebird at 9:49 AM on August 25, 2011 [4 favorites]
Not wanting to fit into settled life should mean a bit more than co-opting an imagined Gypsy lifestyle with associated horse and cart trappings. At least the Amish seem to have a reason for eschewing petrol engines.It should? Why? Serious question. I don't understand why you take such personal offense that people you don't know and who really have no impact on your life choose to do things a bit differently. Asserting that it's only okay to be a certain kind of person if you have the correct genes/ethnic background/whatever makes me a bit uncomfortable.
posted by dvdgee at 9:54 AM on August 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
It should? Why? Serious question. I don't understand why you take such personal offense that people you don't know and who really have no impact on your life choose to do things a bit differently. Asserting that it's only okay to be a certain kind of person if you have the correct genes/ethnic background/whatever makes me a bit uncomfortable.
There is something intrinsically offensive in playing out exaggerated racial stereotypes. I'm sure you can imagine how that can go wrong.
Living the lifestyle of your choice is fine, but if it's based on the lifestyle of others, it should be done with some respect to them. "Gypsies" have a long and often unpleasant history, they've had the short end of the stick a lot and presumably still do.
I know how I'd feel if I was working hard scrabble jobs for change in a dusty caravan, and saw some kids go by in a brightly colored wagon, dressed like they climbed out of a disney movie.
All in all, it's fine that they want to live that way, but I'd hope that they're sensitive to the lives of the people they're imitating, and can do it in a respectful way, without seeming like an awkward parody, or some kind of disney-flavored wish fulfillment.
To put it in a North American perspective, the worse case scenario would look something like this:
A group of white kids with paint on their faces, living in tepees and throwing elaborate powwows, just down the road from a reserve with a third world standard of living.
posted by Stagger Lee at 10:01 AM on August 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
There is something intrinsically offensive in playing out exaggerated racial stereotypes. I'm sure you can imagine how that can go wrong.
Living the lifestyle of your choice is fine, but if it's based on the lifestyle of others, it should be done with some respect to them. "Gypsies" have a long and often unpleasant history, they've had the short end of the stick a lot and presumably still do.
I know how I'd feel if I was working hard scrabble jobs for change in a dusty caravan, and saw some kids go by in a brightly colored wagon, dressed like they climbed out of a disney movie.
All in all, it's fine that they want to live that way, but I'd hope that they're sensitive to the lives of the people they're imitating, and can do it in a respectful way, without seeming like an awkward parody, or some kind of disney-flavored wish fulfillment.
To put it in a North American perspective, the worse case scenario would look something like this:
A group of white kids with paint on their faces, living in tepees and throwing elaborate powwows, just down the road from a reserve with a third world standard of living.
posted by Stagger Lee at 10:01 AM on August 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
I think there's a huge difference between who I'm talking about and who you think I'm talking about BTW.
No, you've made it perfectly and vividly clear you dislike the "New age travelers".
I think that comment was reasonably on topic. Or as on topic as someone saying that they think Kate Moss is being exploitative. We all colour the photographs with our preconceptions.
And you've also made it vividly clear what your preconceptions of the "new age travelers" are. But you then apologized for them -- and then called them "pretensious" again in the very next sentence.
We get that you think people who dress up like gypsies or Roma or Travelers to look pretty or be in a photo shoot is exploitative. But as has been repeatedly explained to you, not all of the "new age travelers" think in that fashion.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:02 AM on August 25, 2011
No, you've made it perfectly and vividly clear you dislike the "New age travelers".
I think that comment was reasonably on topic. Or as on topic as someone saying that they think Kate Moss is being exploitative. We all colour the photographs with our preconceptions.
And you've also made it vividly clear what your preconceptions of the "new age travelers" are. But you then apologized for them -- and then called them "pretensious" again in the very next sentence.
We get that you think people who dress up like gypsies or Roma or Travelers to look pretty or be in a photo shoot is exploitative. But as has been repeatedly explained to you, not all of the "new age travelers" think in that fashion.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:02 AM on August 25, 2011
Not wanting to fit into settled life should mean a bit more than co-opting an imagined Gypsy lifestyle with associated horse and cart trappings.
How is it imagined if that's actually your life? Do you think they wake up in their flat, take a shower, and drive out to sit on their caravan stoop for the day?
The Kate Moss thing was just irritating. She looked like she'd rather be anywhere else than hugging grubby tykes in flea bitten rabbit skins.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:02 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
How is it imagined if that's actually your life? Do you think they wake up in their flat, take a shower, and drive out to sit on their caravan stoop for the day?
The Kate Moss thing was just irritating. She looked like she'd rather be anywhere else than hugging grubby tykes in flea bitten rabbit skins.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:02 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Do they still call them 'New Age Travellers'? It seems a very 90s expression to me, synonymous with Kill The Bill and the crop circle stories in the papers.
Since My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding people know more about the difference between Irish gypsies and Roma, but I wonder whether NAT culture has come into its own. Do crusties have enormous wedding dresses and morals drawn from puriticanical Catholicism?
I believe Kate Moss said her wedding was inspired by the gypsy weddings from TV - but it was nothing like these. For a start, she is in her thirties with a child, and not 17. For a second, her dress could actually fit in the back seat of a car.
posted by mippy at 10:08 AM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
Since My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding people know more about the difference between Irish gypsies and Roma, but I wonder whether NAT culture has come into its own. Do crusties have enormous wedding dresses and morals drawn from puriticanical Catholicism?
I believe Kate Moss said her wedding was inspired by the gypsy weddings from TV - but it was nothing like these. For a start, she is in her thirties with a child, and not 17. For a second, her dress could actually fit in the back seat of a car.
posted by mippy at 10:08 AM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
I can understand a reluctance to condone subgroups such as new agers (or hipsters, whatever) co-opting the lifestyle of preexisting marginalized groups. The lifestyles of Roma or Irish travelers was a result of extreme systemic discrimination forcing entire populations to the margins of society. In contrast there are sometimes groups that adopt alternative lifestyles in an attempt to find meaning in a world they feel disconnected with in some way.
In many cases it feels inauthentic but I think it could even be seen as vaguely offensive towards the original populations and cultures that these people are patterning themselves off.
In the absence of interviews with these individuals I guess I'm going to go with the well-intentioned that are somehow looking for authenticity and community in an alternative lifestyle. I'm not sure that it's the best lifestyle for young children but I can also understand wanting to raise kids away from the potential "negative" impacts of modern over-programmed civilization.
posted by vuron at 10:09 AM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
In many cases it feels inauthentic but I think it could even be seen as vaguely offensive towards the original populations and cultures that these people are patterning themselves off.
In the absence of interviews with these individuals I guess I'm going to go with the well-intentioned that are somehow looking for authenticity and community in an alternative lifestyle. I'm not sure that it's the best lifestyle for young children but I can also understand wanting to raise kids away from the potential "negative" impacts of modern over-programmed civilization.
posted by vuron at 10:09 AM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
A group of white kids with paint on their faces, living in tepees and throwing elaborate powwows
Oh, like in Germany?
Anyone who romanticizes the gypsy life really ought to look at the deplorable situation of many Roma in Eastern Europe.
posted by Nelson at 10:18 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Oh, like in Germany?
Anyone who romanticizes the gypsy life really ought to look at the deplorable situation of many Roma in Eastern Europe.
posted by Nelson at 10:18 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'm all for sexy preteens and the women who look like them, but that fucking hashtag AJAX navigation has to go.
posted by nicwolff at 10:46 AM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by nicwolff at 10:46 AM on August 25, 2011 [2 favorites]
Whether or not the modern gypsies are the real deal (they look like they took the Jim Rose Circus Side Show a little too seriously to me) is kinda neither here or there - they've chosen a lifestyle and are living it out just like the rest of us do.
The Kate Moss pictures though, reduces what they do down to a series of style elements and robs whatever deeper meaning there may be in how the live. Reminds me of those awful fashion shoots where they use the Masai people as props.
posted by helmutdog at 11:08 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
The Kate Moss pictures though, reduces what they do down to a series of style elements and robs whatever deeper meaning there may be in how the live. Reminds me of those awful fashion shoots where they use the Masai people as props.
posted by helmutdog at 11:08 AM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
The last one, number 10, sums up my feelings about the Kate Moss pictures. The kid she's next to has such a great, genuine expression on his face, and Moss just looks like a plastic idiot making her trained expressionless model's sexyface next to him. She's doing it in almost all of them... playing to the camera, acting according to the camera.
If it's exploitive of anyone, I'd say the thought it provokes reflects very badly on Kate Moss and the idea of being a photographed model. SHE's the cosplayer there, and it doesn't help her that all of the other women in the photographs are genuinely beautiful and not a commercial compromise of generic attractiveness.
posted by cmoj at 11:22 AM on August 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
If it's exploitive of anyone, I'd say the thought it provokes reflects very badly on Kate Moss and the idea of being a photographed model. SHE's the cosplayer there, and it doesn't help her that all of the other women in the photographs are genuinely beautiful and not a commercial compromise of generic attractiveness.
posted by cmoj at 11:22 AM on August 25, 2011 [3 favorites]
I cancelled my cable about a year ago so I'd been unaware of My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding. Thank you for the introduction, it is awesome!
posted by Gwynarra at 12:45 PM on August 25, 2011
posted by Gwynarra at 12:45 PM on August 25, 2011
Ah, right: your genetic and racial heritage should totally determine what lifestyles you are allowed to embrace, check.
Go wild, embrace it, even call yourself one, but you won't be a Gypsy. They are a legally recognized ethnic minority.
posted by Brocktoon at 1:04 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Go wild, embrace it, even call yourself one, but you won't be a Gypsy. They are a legally recognized ethnic minority.
posted by Brocktoon at 1:04 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
>A group of white kids with paint on their faces, living in tepees and throwing elaborate powwows
Oh, like in Germany?
A phenomenon that can be blamed entirely on Karl May. Hitler was a huge fan; the first Karl-May-Spiele (the main redface event) was held in 1938.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:08 PM on August 25, 2011
Oh, like in Germany?
A phenomenon that can be blamed entirely on Karl May. Hitler was a huge fan; the first Karl-May-Spiele (the main redface event) was held in 1938.
posted by Sys Rq at 2:08 PM on August 25, 2011
I would have liked to see the insides of some of the wagons. There was a picture from 1986 in the interview that criticalbill linked to, but it would be interesting to compare that "otherness" of horse-drawn wagons with the Travellers' modern-day technology (Facebook!) the photographer mentions.
Also, I'm just nosey.
posted by book 'em dano at 8:39 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
Also, I'm just nosey.
posted by book 'em dano at 8:39 PM on August 25, 2011 [1 favorite]
A comparison to the Juggalos? Really? The same juggalos who like to tear shit up because they don't understand magnets? Jesus Christ on a stick.
These people harm no one, do nothing that even begins to affect your world, and yet you have some sort of objection to their existence. Sounds like they have more of a life than you do, seanboy. Jealous?
I commend anyone who does what they like, social expectations be damned. Besides, when no one can afford to drive a car anymore, we'll be paying them through the nose for their buggies and their horses. Someday, the tinkers will be back. Let's see if you turn up your nose then.
posted by RedEmma at 10:00 AM on August 26, 2011
These people harm no one, do nothing that even begins to affect your world, and yet you have some sort of objection to their existence. Sounds like they have more of a life than you do, seanboy. Jealous?
I commend anyone who does what they like, social expectations be damned. Besides, when no one can afford to drive a car anymore, we'll be paying them through the nose for their buggies and their horses. Someday, the tinkers will be back. Let's see if you turn up your nose then.
posted by RedEmma at 10:00 AM on August 26, 2011
Redemma: you've no idea what affects my life and comments about me getting a life personalises something that doesn't need personalising. Disagree with me as much as you like, but when you bring the conversation down to name calling, you do your position a disservice.
posted by seanyboy at 6:12 AM on August 27, 2011
posted by seanyboy at 6:12 AM on August 27, 2011
"New Gypsies" my arse. Trustafarians and Hippies would be a more accurate description. Or "People with an unhealthy fixation on a lifestyle that never existed. Also who like the Levellers."
posted to MetaFilter by seanyboy at 9:56 AM
No good reasons - I'll warrant. And aggressive small minded reasons at that. Intellectually bereft anarchism as fashion statement. Luddites without any knowledge of why the machine would need smashing. Poseurs.
Never met a New Age Traveller I liked. Never met a new age traveller that wasn't sneering disdainfully at mainstream culture.
I haven't a problem with Roma or Irish. Just new age travellers.
posted to MetaFilter by seanyboy at 10:52 AM
Kate Moss fitted right in for me. Pretentiousness meets pretentiousness.
posted to MetaFilter by seanyboy at 11:11 AM on August 25, 2011 [+]
Someone above mentioned Juggalos. I think that's an apt simile.
Meanwhile, I merely pointed out that you sounded jealous because your bitterness seems a bit over the top. And that you might want to find something more constructive to do with your life.
So, who's name-calling again?
posted by RedEmma at 8:58 AM on August 27, 2011
posted to MetaFilter by seanyboy at 9:56 AM
No good reasons - I'll warrant. And aggressive small minded reasons at that. Intellectually bereft anarchism as fashion statement. Luddites without any knowledge of why the machine would need smashing. Poseurs.
Never met a New Age Traveller I liked. Never met a new age traveller that wasn't sneering disdainfully at mainstream culture.
I haven't a problem with Roma or Irish. Just new age travellers.
posted to MetaFilter by seanyboy at 10:52 AM
Kate Moss fitted right in for me. Pretentiousness meets pretentiousness.
posted to MetaFilter by seanyboy at 11:11 AM on August 25, 2011 [+]
Someone above mentioned Juggalos. I think that's an apt simile.
Meanwhile, I merely pointed out that you sounded jealous because your bitterness seems a bit over the top. And that you might want to find something more constructive to do with your life.
So, who's name-calling again?
posted by RedEmma at 8:58 AM on August 27, 2011
There's a big difference between saying {group} is {bad thing} and saying {you personally} is {bad thing}.
There are wider issues here about being publicly critical about individuals and groups and automatic assumptions about the scope of that public discussion. Wil Wheaton discussing his reaction to metafilter criticism highlights these issues. If you're a new age traveller and you read my comments and they upset you, then truly, I'm sorry. MeMail me and we can talk. FWIW, I haven't quite worked out how to marry my need to discuss things openly on the internet with the need to not hurt feelings. I'm not sure many people have.
But what you did (and you can paraphrase that as much as you'd like) is say "Sounds like they have more of a life than you do, seanboy. Jealous?"
I can see that any dissection of your phrasing is going to end up in that weird semantic void that happens when such phrases are dissected, but it's pretty clear that you were criticising me instead of criticising what I was saying.
That's pretty much automatic fail right there.
I'll let you get your rejoinder in now, but I'm dropping out of the discussion. I've said my piece. My belief is that what I said was strongly stated counterpoint to a strongly stated in-thread over-romancing of a lifestyle. That stands.
posted by seanyboy at 10:11 AM on August 27, 2011
There are wider issues here about being publicly critical about individuals and groups and automatic assumptions about the scope of that public discussion. Wil Wheaton discussing his reaction to metafilter criticism highlights these issues. If you're a new age traveller and you read my comments and they upset you, then truly, I'm sorry. MeMail me and we can talk. FWIW, I haven't quite worked out how to marry my need to discuss things openly on the internet with the need to not hurt feelings. I'm not sure many people have.
But what you did (and you can paraphrase that as much as you'd like) is say "Sounds like they have more of a life than you do, seanboy. Jealous?"
I can see that any dissection of your phrasing is going to end up in that weird semantic void that happens when such phrases are dissected, but it's pretty clear that you were criticising me instead of criticising what I was saying.
That's pretty much automatic fail right there.
I'll let you get your rejoinder in now, but I'm dropping out of the discussion. I've said my piece. My belief is that what I said was strongly stated counterpoint to a strongly stated in-thread over-romancing of a lifestyle. That stands.
posted by seanyboy at 10:11 AM on August 27, 2011
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Where is it even possible to travel by horse-drawn wagon?
posted by grobstein at 7:36 AM on August 25, 2011