If you look in my fridge, it's like children's food—chips, milkshakes, yogurt
September 1, 2011 10:06 AM Subscribe
"[Punk] in itself is comedy. The whole thing is ludicrous. They were taking themselves so seriously—" he laughs—"and the great message you want to tell people forty years later is 'Put butter on your crumpets'? What they were saying they stood for, which was sort of anti-greed, anti-establishment... At the end, they all want the check. That's the truth." Pop biographer Chris Heath - who's written some rather fascinating books on Robbie Williams and the Pet Shop Boys - meets Simon Cowell.
Joe Strummer does not approve.
posted by humboldt32 at 10:10 AM on September 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by humboldt32 at 10:10 AM on September 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Apart from their music, which is fine, holding up the Sex Pistols as the standard bearers for punk ideology is like holding up Kenny G as the standard bearer for jazz. Between McLaren's manipulation in the early days and their bald-faced avarice of late, they have always been a weirdly compromised entity in a way that was not an issue for very many of their peers.
posted by anazgnos at 10:18 AM on September 1, 2011 [19 favorites]
posted by anazgnos at 10:18 AM on September 1, 2011 [19 favorites]
Joe Strummer does not approve.
Ian MacKaye is spinning in his van, on the way to play a $15 all ages show.
posted by Hoopo at 10:19 AM on September 1, 2011 [10 favorites]
Ian MacKaye is spinning in his van, on the way to play a $15 all ages show.
posted by Hoopo at 10:19 AM on September 1, 2011 [10 favorites]
That article does not make me inclined to care what Simon Cowell thinks about punk. Or anything else.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:20 AM on September 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by oneirodynia at 10:20 AM on September 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
That article made me reflect upon the fact that you could write up my morning routine in a way that would make me sound really eccentric.
posted by craichead at 10:24 AM on September 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
posted by craichead at 10:24 AM on September 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
I'm sure the purveyor of auto-tuned commercial dregs of pseudo-music would have a highly nuanced view of music written and played by the performers themselves.
posted by Dark Messiah at 10:25 AM on September 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Dark Messiah at 10:25 AM on September 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Ian MacKaye is spinning in his van, on the way to play a $15 all ages show.
... All the while being a pretentious prick. (Not that I ever met him). At least he can still "Get in the Van" (speaking of punk pricks) instead of being worm food. Joe took his principles to the grave and remained a resoundingly nice guy to the end.
Fugazi IS my second favorite punk outfit FWIW.
posted by humboldt32 at 10:28 AM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
... All the while being a pretentious prick. (Not that I ever met him). At least he can still "Get in the Van" (speaking of punk pricks) instead of being worm food. Joe took his principles to the grave and remained a resoundingly nice guy to the end.
Fugazi IS my second favorite punk outfit FWIW.
posted by humboldt32 at 10:28 AM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Not trying to be contrary. Just talkin' out loud.
posted by humboldt32 at 10:29 AM on September 1, 2011
posted by humboldt32 at 10:29 AM on September 1, 2011
Yes, punk rock was all about stackin' dollars, and that is why Mike Watt lives in a palatial mansion and drives a Bugatti Veyron now.
Fuck you, Simon Cowell. If you were ice cream, you'd be vanilla with chunks of turd.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 10:35 AM on September 1, 2011 [30 favorites]
Fuck you, Simon Cowell. If you were ice cream, you'd be vanilla with chunks of turd.
posted by BitterOldPunk at 10:35 AM on September 1, 2011 [30 favorites]
heh, I'm not arguing humboldt32, I was more referring to Mackaye as a former punk that didn't go the Johnny Rotten route and cashing in at every opportunity. There's plenty of them out there, and Cowell is kind of an idiot for using Johnny Rotten as his example. He's basically laughing at the idea of someone having integrity or depth or passion about a message. Probably because he's never produced anything in his long career with any integrity, depth, or passion.
posted by Hoopo at 10:40 AM on September 1, 2011 [7 favorites]
posted by Hoopo at 10:40 AM on September 1, 2011 [7 favorites]
He's not wrong, exactly, that the Sex Pistols were, and are, a joke. But if the Sex Pistols are his go-to example, he doesn't know anything about punk rock. The Sex Pistols make Jem and the Holograms look like Crass.
That said, I kinda feel bad for the guy. Believing in a world where no one else has any integrity either might be what Simon Cowell has to do in order to sleep at night.
posted by box at 10:40 AM on September 1, 2011 [10 favorites]
That said, I kinda feel bad for the guy. Believing in a world where no one else has any integrity either might be what Simon Cowell has to do in order to sleep at night.
posted by box at 10:40 AM on September 1, 2011 [10 favorites]
Cowell maintains that he now gets what was special about punk, though his choice of a favorite punk single, Sid Vicious's anti-heroic mauling of "My Way," suggests otherwise.It certainly does.
posted by namewithoutwords at 10:44 AM on September 1, 2011
This may be true about most of the punks most people have heard of. But, you know, true punks/Scotsmen.
When we look back on the current era, where 'punk' is sweater vests and mustaches, looking like something out of "awkward family photos" but, you know, ironically, I wonder if I will be remembered as ahead of the curve on the new sincerity movement.
Probably not.
posted by Eideteker at 10:47 AM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
When we look back on the current era, where 'punk' is sweater vests and mustaches, looking like something out of "awkward family photos" but, you know, ironically, I wonder if I will be remembered as ahead of the curve on the new sincerity movement.
Probably not.
posted by Eideteker at 10:47 AM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
This is your punk now. This is your legacy. This is all that remains.
posted by kafziel at 10:49 AM on September 1, 2011 [5 favorites]
posted by kafziel at 10:49 AM on September 1, 2011 [5 favorites]
Hoopo, I couldn't agree more.
posted by humboldt32 at 10:53 AM on September 1, 2011
posted by humboldt32 at 10:53 AM on September 1, 2011
Ed Kuepper of Brisbane band The Saints: "The band was a full thing by 1974. Two and a half years later, this incredibly fashionable movement comes along, only an arsehole would have associated himself with that"
The Saints - I'm Stranded
Now, that's punk.
posted by elmono at 10:58 AM on September 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
The Saints - I'm Stranded
Now, that's punk.
posted by elmono at 10:58 AM on September 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
I was at Katowice Airport leaving Off Festival last month and Johnny Rotton was there. He sat in the departure lounge, loudly mouthing off about how stupid everyone was for queueing at the gate to get on the plane as there would clearly be enough seats for everyone...before changing his mind, getting up, deciding the queue was too long and shoving his way in.
posted by garlicsmack at 10:59 AM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by garlicsmack at 10:59 AM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
They were taking themselves so seriously
I got there in a later wave, punk, then goth, and neither me or my friends did. We knew that way led to madness, and was what we were going against, just being ourselves and trying to find our passions. Fuck all what others thought, we did it for ourselves.
Cowell and his ilk are the ones who take themselves too seriously, jesus, just look at how brutal and mean they are on their crap shows.
Two and a half years later, this incredibly fashionable movement comes along, only an arsehole would have associated himself with that"
Sounds exactly like any "hipster" now and days. "I was into it before it was popular." Any one really into it wouldn't care if anyone else was, they'd just do it.
posted by usagizero at 11:03 AM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
I got there in a later wave, punk, then goth, and neither me or my friends did. We knew that way led to madness, and was what we were going against, just being ourselves and trying to find our passions. Fuck all what others thought, we did it for ourselves.
Cowell and his ilk are the ones who take themselves too seriously, jesus, just look at how brutal and mean they are on their crap shows.
Two and a half years later, this incredibly fashionable movement comes along, only an arsehole would have associated himself with that"
Sounds exactly like any "hipster" now and days. "I was into it before it was popular." Any one really into it wouldn't care if anyone else was, they'd just do it.
posted by usagizero at 11:03 AM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
I know we're all talking about the pull quote in here and everything, but it's actually a really interesting article about a guy I don't find all that interesting. Cowell's definitely loathsome, but he's also a lot more loathsome in a childish, almost pitifully underdeveloped way than I'd realized. I thought he was a big entitled pretentious prick, you know? Turns out he's a little middlebrow spoiled-brat prick.
posted by penduluum at 11:07 AM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by penduluum at 11:07 AM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
He's not wrong, exactly, that the Sex Pistols were, and are, a joke
I'm going to go ahead and say he was exactly wrong about that.
They had a strong sense of irony, and a fine sense of the ridiculous, but they were as good a punk band as ever there was.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:08 AM on September 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
I'm going to go ahead and say he was exactly wrong about that.
They had a strong sense of irony, and a fine sense of the ridiculous, but they were as good a punk band as ever there was.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:08 AM on September 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
You understand that the Pistols were a malcolm mclaren concoction developed to sell t-shirt, right?
Similarly: Bow Wow Wow.
(Just so happens I played Fugazi, The Clash and Bow Wow Wow on my radio show Tuesday night.)
posted by humboldt32 at 11:14 AM on September 1, 2011
Similarly: Bow Wow Wow.
(Just so happens I played Fugazi, The Clash and Bow Wow Wow on my radio show Tuesday night.)
posted by humboldt32 at 11:14 AM on September 1, 2011
It's always interesting to me (and I mean this completely honestly without a hint of irony or cynicism) to listen to discussions about "punk". Perhaps it's because it's still seen (and probably always will be) as the paste-eating, paint-sniffing bastard offspring of rock, but so frequently we discuss it as if it were 'this one thing'. After 40+ years and many, many iterations of sub genres from hardcore to garage to pop to whatever those damn kids of today call it, etc... it's certainly not just that one thing anymore.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 11:14 AM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 11:14 AM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
*GAH* plural and capitals.
posted by humboldt32 at 11:15 AM on September 1, 2011
posted by humboldt32 at 11:15 AM on September 1, 2011
You understand that the Pistols were a malcolm mclaren concoction developed to sell t-shirt, right?
I also understand that The Monkees were a prefabricated group designed to hawk a television show, and that they were one of the best garage bands of the 60s.
And that McLaren was out to create a revolution, inspired by the French Situarionist movement.
And that you're not going to find a better punk songwriter than Glen Matlock.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:19 AM on September 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
I also understand that The Monkees were a prefabricated group designed to hawk a television show, and that they were one of the best garage bands of the 60s.
And that McLaren was out to create a revolution, inspired by the French Situarionist movement.
And that you're not going to find a better punk songwriter than Glen Matlock.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:19 AM on September 1, 2011 [4 favorites]
but it's actually a really interesting article
I ould debate that; the pull quote in this case is the most interesting single element of the whole thing. I don't really see much to discuss about his love of smoothies or whether he would hypothetically sleep with Paula Abdul.
posted by Hoopo at 11:20 AM on September 1, 2011
I ould debate that; the pull quote in this case is the most interesting single element of the whole thing. I don't really see much to discuss about his love of smoothies or whether he would hypothetically sleep with Paula Abdul.
posted by Hoopo at 11:20 AM on September 1, 2011
I could not care less what Simon Cowell thinks of punk rock. I will listen to the Buzzcocks/Sranglers/Sex Pistols/Damned/Minor Threat/Bad Brains/Television/X/Misfits/Minutemen/Costello/Jam/Clash/Ramones/Saints/Gang of Four/Suicide/Husker Du/ and smile, smile, smile. Anyone focusing on the fashion and attitude is completely missing the point. The music from that period was insanely good.
posted by jetsetsc at 11:22 AM on September 1, 2011 [10 favorites]
posted by jetsetsc at 11:22 AM on September 1, 2011 [10 favorites]
Bunny, you've just reminded me of the fact the Pistols and the Monkees both covered "I'm Not Your Stepping Stone"
posted by Hoopo at 11:24 AM on September 1, 2011
posted by Hoopo at 11:24 AM on September 1, 2011
Bunny, you've just reminded me of the fact the Pistols and the Monkees both covered "I'm Not Your Stepping Stone"
I think a case can be made that that's the punkest song ever written. I remember being quite shocked by how angry it was when I heard the Monkees version as a boy.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:25 AM on September 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
I think a case can be made that that's the punkest song ever written. I remember being quite shocked by how angry it was when I heard the Monkees version as a boy.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:25 AM on September 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Sounds exactly like any "hipster" now and days. "I was into it before it was popular." Any one really into it wouldn't care if anyone else was, they'd just do it.
No, you've got it a bit wrong. Kuepper's not talking about an audience, he's talking about their experience going to the UK after '76 and dealing with the industry, labels & the press who ostensibly loved their sound, but wanted them to dress up appropriately so that they could be marketed alongside whatever was happening at that moment, rather than follow what they'd been doing on their own for several years at that point.
posted by anazgnos at 11:28 AM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
No, you've got it a bit wrong. Kuepper's not talking about an audience, he's talking about their experience going to the UK after '76 and dealing with the industry, labels & the press who ostensibly loved their sound, but wanted them to dress up appropriately so that they could be marketed alongside whatever was happening at that moment, rather than follow what they'd been doing on their own for several years at that point.
posted by anazgnos at 11:28 AM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
London heathen scum.
posted by Lutoslawski at 11:28 AM on September 1, 2011
posted by Lutoslawski at 11:28 AM on September 1, 2011
And that you're not going to find a better punk songwriter than Glen Matlock.
Except for Joe Strummer.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 11:30 AM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Except for Joe Strummer.
posted by BigHeartedGuy at 11:30 AM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
I'd say they're even. And I'm as a big a Strummer fan as you'll find.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:30 AM on September 1, 2011
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:30 AM on September 1, 2011
Except for Joe Strummer.
He kind of relied on others to write music, though, right? Pretty much a words-only guy.
posted by anazgnos at 11:31 AM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
He kind of relied on others to write music, though, right? Pretty much a words-only guy.
posted by anazgnos at 11:31 AM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
You understand that the Pistols were a malcolm mclaren concoction developed to sell t-shirt, right?
Which fact does not change a single note of "Holidays in the Sun".
posted by steambadger at 11:39 AM on September 1, 2011 [7 favorites]
Which fact does not change a single note of "Holidays in the Sun".
posted by steambadger at 11:39 AM on September 1, 2011 [7 favorites]
Ah, Simon Cowell. That well-respected arbiter of musical quality and history. We should definitely take these opinions of his completely seriously.
posted by Decani at 11:39 AM on September 1, 2011
posted by Decani at 11:39 AM on September 1, 2011
In fairness, Cowell is responsible for Il Divo, and for that along will be despised forever.
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:41 AM on September 1, 2011
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 11:41 AM on September 1, 2011
yes exactly however:
Simon Bowel
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 11:42 AM on September 1, 2011
Simon Bowel
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 11:42 AM on September 1, 2011
Gonna have to invoke the names: Greg Graffin & Brett Gurewitz at this point.
My point about the Pistols was, as has been stated already, they're sort of a bad (read easy) choice to use to describe the punk movement. My bad for being accusatory in my comments.
posted by humboldt32 at 11:42 AM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
My point about the Pistols was, as has been stated already, they're sort of a bad (read easy) choice to use to describe the punk movement. My bad for being accusatory in my comments.
posted by humboldt32 at 11:42 AM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
My point about the Pistols was, as has been stated already, they're sort of a bad (read easy) choice to use to describe the punk movement.
Yes, agreed. They may have been the only punk band Cowell could think of.
posted by steambadger at 11:45 AM on September 1, 2011
Yes, agreed. They may have been the only punk band Cowell could think of.
posted by steambadger at 11:45 AM on September 1, 2011
Bunny, you've just reminded me of the fact the Pistols and the Monkees both covered "I'm Not Your Stepping Stone"
I think a case can be made that that's the punkest song ever written. I remember being quite shocked by how angry it was when I heard the Monkees version as a boy.
see also Minor Threat version
posted by djseafood at 11:47 AM on September 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
I think a case can be made that that's the punkest song ever written. I remember being quite shocked by how angry it was when I heard the Monkees version as a boy.
see also Minor Threat version
posted by djseafood at 11:47 AM on September 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
the pull quote in this case is the most interesting single element of the whole thing.
Mm. Well, can't say I didn't try.
posted by penduluum at 11:47 AM on September 1, 2011
Mm. Well, can't say I didn't try.
posted by penduluum at 11:47 AM on September 1, 2011
Aren't Fugazi shows capped at 6$?
They were in my day, but I haven't seen them live since the 90s so I wasn't sure if inflation had taken effect or anything.
posted by Hoopo at 12:24 PM on September 1, 2011
They were in my day, but I haven't seen them live since the 90s so I wasn't sure if inflation had taken effect or anything.
posted by Hoopo at 12:24 PM on September 1, 2011
I guess we should have minded the Bollocks.
posted by Renoroc at 12:27 PM on September 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
posted by Renoroc at 12:27 PM on September 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
Well, I really couldn't give a crap what Simon Cowell thinks about anything... But thanks for that link to the Robbie Williams book. My Irish, Robbie-loving wife will love that as a little surprise present.
posted by antifuse at 12:38 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by antifuse at 12:38 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think a case can be made that that's the punkest song ever written.
"Stepping Stone" is a great song, but I think the punkest song ever written was "Fortunate Son."
posted by entropicamericana at 12:41 PM on September 1, 2011 [8 favorites]
"Stepping Stone" is a great song, but I think the punkest song ever written was "Fortunate Son."
posted by entropicamericana at 12:41 PM on September 1, 2011 [8 favorites]
Later, Guy Fieri discusses the best vegan restaurants in the Northeast.
posted by benito.strauss at 12:53 PM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by benito.strauss at 12:53 PM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
So is anyone going to actually read the article, or is everyone going to discuss punk rock, which plays a minor roll in the pull-quote and has very little other relevance?
posted by codacorolla at 1:13 PM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 1:13 PM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
They were in my day, but I haven't seen them live since the 90s so I wasn't sure if inflation had taken effect or anything.
Fugazi have been on permanent hiatus for years, now. Ian said they may have played ONE show for more than what they usually charge, but that's it, the last time I saw him talk.
Not to derail this to the Fugazi thread (since they have nothing to do with Mr. Simon, here), but it was actually interesting to hear how they were able to pull this off: the band would talk to the people working the venue (light people, sound people, etc) and talk about how much they wanted to make, how many people they thought would come and then - how much the band wanted to make per show. If the venue wanted too much they talked about it, until everyone got a fair share. Sometimes the band wouldn't make *any* money, but they still had an all-ages gig that people enjoyed. And fugazi wasn't a band that played 6 dates, so one dud didn't ruin a tour, but at least got them gas money.
It sounds so simple and obvious, but usually bands want a particular amount guaranteed to them, before they would play. Sometimes the venue would get completely screwed over if no one came. Fugazi worked in an opposite fashion, but the communication with the venue made things a little more democratic, rather than hostile.
posted by alex_skazat at 1:13 PM on September 1, 2011
Fugazi have been on permanent hiatus for years, now. Ian said they may have played ONE show for more than what they usually charge, but that's it, the last time I saw him talk.
Not to derail this to the Fugazi thread (since they have nothing to do with Mr. Simon, here), but it was actually interesting to hear how they were able to pull this off: the band would talk to the people working the venue (light people, sound people, etc) and talk about how much they wanted to make, how many people they thought would come and then - how much the band wanted to make per show. If the venue wanted too much they talked about it, until everyone got a fair share. Sometimes the band wouldn't make *any* money, but they still had an all-ages gig that people enjoyed. And fugazi wasn't a band that played 6 dates, so one dud didn't ruin a tour, but at least got them gas money.
It sounds so simple and obvious, but usually bands want a particular amount guaranteed to them, before they would play. Sometimes the venue would get completely screwed over if no one came. Fugazi worked in an opposite fashion, but the communication with the venue made things a little more democratic, rather than hostile.
posted by alex_skazat at 1:13 PM on September 1, 2011
So is anyone going to actually read the article, or is everyone going to discuss punk rock, which plays a minor roll in the pull-quote and has very little other relevance?
Well, the alternative is discussing the complicated and inspiring Simon Cowell, so .....
posted by benito.strauss at 1:20 PM on September 1, 2011
Well, the alternative is discussing the complicated and inspiring Simon Cowell, so .....
posted by benito.strauss at 1:20 PM on September 1, 2011
So is anyone going to actually read the article, or is everyone going to discuss punk rock, which plays a minor roll in the pull-quote and has very little other relevance?
Sure, the article shows that Simon Cowell doesn't get punk. He seems pretty clueless so that is hardly surprising. Well, now that was pretty boring, back to punk.....
posted by caddis at 1:25 PM on September 1, 2011
Sure, the article shows that Simon Cowell doesn't get punk. He seems pretty clueless so that is hardly surprising. Well, now that was pretty boring, back to punk.....
posted by caddis at 1:25 PM on September 1, 2011
I commented in another forum not too long ago, that Punk's "fuck everything" ethos means "fuck Punk" too. Punk is Dada.
It's no crime to call out Punk's idiosyncracies and point out the hypocrisy of Punk's self appointed flag bearers. In fact, that is itself the essence of Punk.
The complaints about Simon Cowell sound to me like ...it's like hearing the leaders of the Anarchist movement complain that nobody is following their bylaws.
Before I posted this I went back and re-read the articles and most of the comments.
I'll add this. The Sex Pistols were a great Punk band. They were a terrible band, but a great Punk band. Not least of all because they helped define Punk. Monet: shitty modernist, great impressionist.
Let's not forget Punk's dirty little secret either. Though the great Punk bands of the 70s weren't corporate paste ups, Punk might have been a minor footnote in music history if the fashion hadn't been there. Punk was sold as a lifestyle and fashion paradigm. It still is.
And back to Simon Cowell. The hate for Simon Cowell seems to me to be very superficial. People love to hate him because he is "so mean". He isn't mean. He's the guy in the room who calls out bullshit when everyone else is looking for something nice to say. Seriously, when the Emperor isn't wearing clothes, for Christ's sake, say something. True cruelty is extending false hope to someone who really has no chance. Cowell is blunt, deliberately direct. Maybe it's a character flaw that he seems to savor his role a little too much, but every time I have seen him blow someone out of the water, I have agreed with him completely.
One laaast thing. If you want to see a very good, earnest, movie about punk, see SLC Punk. It seems to me to say a lot about punk in tongue-in-cheek or a read between the lines way. Steve-O despises the poseurs and clearly articulates What Punk Is, but comes to something of an existential crisis despite his unwavering faith.
Punk is dead! Long live Punk!
posted by Xoebe at 1:52 PM on September 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
It's no crime to call out Punk's idiosyncracies and point out the hypocrisy of Punk's self appointed flag bearers. In fact, that is itself the essence of Punk.
The complaints about Simon Cowell sound to me like ...it's like hearing the leaders of the Anarchist movement complain that nobody is following their bylaws.
Before I posted this I went back and re-read the articles and most of the comments.
I'll add this. The Sex Pistols were a great Punk band. They were a terrible band, but a great Punk band. Not least of all because they helped define Punk. Monet: shitty modernist, great impressionist.
Let's not forget Punk's dirty little secret either. Though the great Punk bands of the 70s weren't corporate paste ups, Punk might have been a minor footnote in music history if the fashion hadn't been there. Punk was sold as a lifestyle and fashion paradigm. It still is.
And back to Simon Cowell. The hate for Simon Cowell seems to me to be very superficial. People love to hate him because he is "so mean". He isn't mean. He's the guy in the room who calls out bullshit when everyone else is looking for something nice to say. Seriously, when the Emperor isn't wearing clothes, for Christ's sake, say something. True cruelty is extending false hope to someone who really has no chance. Cowell is blunt, deliberately direct. Maybe it's a character flaw that he seems to savor his role a little too much, but every time I have seen him blow someone out of the water, I have agreed with him completely.
One laaast thing. If you want to see a very good, earnest, movie about punk, see SLC Punk. It seems to me to say a lot about punk in tongue-in-cheek or a read between the lines way. Steve-O despises the poseurs and clearly articulates What Punk Is, but comes to something of an existential crisis despite his unwavering faith.
Punk is dead! Long live Punk!
posted by Xoebe at 1:52 PM on September 1, 2011 [3 favorites]
I think Chris Heath either screwed the pooch on this article or is an evil genius. His thesis, as stated, is "This guy is one strange bunny." But what the article makes perfectly clear to me is that Simon Cowell is exactly what he claims to be -- a regular person with totally mass-market taste who is primarily interested in himself. He just happens to be able to buy expensive things and order his breakfast to be delivered to him every morning, if he wants to.
But what does he buy? A sports car. A black Bugatti. And what does he order for breakfast? Smoothies. The same three, every day for five years.
I would contend that what the article proves is that Simon Cowell is exactly like several hundred million Euro/Americans in his taste and behavior, and that if you gave any of the rest of them his kind of money they'd do roughly the same unimaginative and credulous shit (Vitamins by IV? Gawd.)
So the interesting question is, does Chris Heath know this? Did he write this profile the way he did as a way of flattering Cowell and ensuring future access while at the same time making it totally clear to us that he knows as well as we do what the truth is? Or does he actually think any of those things make Cowell anything but a totally conventional dope with a shitload of money?
posted by rusty at 1:59 PM on September 1, 2011
But what does he buy? A sports car. A black Bugatti. And what does he order for breakfast? Smoothies. The same three, every day for five years.
I would contend that what the article proves is that Simon Cowell is exactly like several hundred million Euro/Americans in his taste and behavior, and that if you gave any of the rest of them his kind of money they'd do roughly the same unimaginative and credulous shit (Vitamins by IV? Gawd.)
So the interesting question is, does Chris Heath know this? Did he write this profile the way he did as a way of flattering Cowell and ensuring future access while at the same time making it totally clear to us that he knows as well as we do what the truth is? Or does he actually think any of those things make Cowell anything but a totally conventional dope with a shitload of money?
posted by rusty at 1:59 PM on September 1, 2011
Right. Let's review, shall we?
The Who sang "Hope I die before I get old" in "My Generation" (the actual first punk rock song) precisely because they had an idea of what they would turn into if they did get old--in fact, exactly what they did turn into (and, arguably, even before Keith Moon died)--and which they subsequently satirized in The Who Sell Out. It's nigh-inevitable that you will sell out as you age, simply because you can't sustain that level of anger and intensity, with very few exceptions, and you still have bills to pay, unless you have the good fortune to die young, or at least young enough (Buddy Holly, Bill Hicks).
Simon Cowell can't sell out because he's never had any principles to sell out; he's a former record company executive whose main quality is that of being snotty, something that's as common in England as beer and bad teeth. Thus, he sneers at Johnny Rotten hawking butter while he gulps down his three morning smoothies. If Cowell were put in his own smoothie blender and the resulting noxious slurry flushed down the toilet, no one would really miss him, but John Lydon, as far as I'm concerned, doesn't need to do anything else in life with Never Mind the Bollocks in his discography. (Besides, the butter commercial is kind of entertaining, in its way. Ditto for this Johnny Cash commercial for Nissan in which he sings the Laverne & Shirley theme. The ex accused Cash of selling out by doing it, which in retrospect was one of the indicators that we probably shouldn't have been together in the first place.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:07 PM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
The Who sang "Hope I die before I get old" in "My Generation" (the actual first punk rock song) precisely because they had an idea of what they would turn into if they did get old--in fact, exactly what they did turn into (and, arguably, even before Keith Moon died)--and which they subsequently satirized in The Who Sell Out. It's nigh-inevitable that you will sell out as you age, simply because you can't sustain that level of anger and intensity, with very few exceptions, and you still have bills to pay, unless you have the good fortune to die young, or at least young enough (Buddy Holly, Bill Hicks).
Simon Cowell can't sell out because he's never had any principles to sell out; he's a former record company executive whose main quality is that of being snotty, something that's as common in England as beer and bad teeth. Thus, he sneers at Johnny Rotten hawking butter while he gulps down his three morning smoothies. If Cowell were put in his own smoothie blender and the resulting noxious slurry flushed down the toilet, no one would really miss him, but John Lydon, as far as I'm concerned, doesn't need to do anything else in life with Never Mind the Bollocks in his discography. (Besides, the butter commercial is kind of entertaining, in its way. Ditto for this Johnny Cash commercial for Nissan in which he sings the Laverne & Shirley theme. The ex accused Cash of selling out by doing it, which in retrospect was one of the indicators that we probably shouldn't have been together in the first place.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:07 PM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
the actual first punk rock song
Let's not do this. The Who were not the first garage band to make songs of the variety that would later be emulated by punks. Punk drew on a lot of rock and roll influences, including rockabilly, and the Cramps weren't really approaching that material much differently than Hasil Adkins had been doing since the late 50s. It would be next to impossible to pinpoint a "first eva punk song" if we're going to include influences as "punk."
posted by Hoopo at 2:25 PM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
Let's not do this. The Who were not the first garage band to make songs of the variety that would later be emulated by punks. Punk drew on a lot of rock and roll influences, including rockabilly, and the Cramps weren't really approaching that material much differently than Hasil Adkins had been doing since the late 50s. It would be next to impossible to pinpoint a "first eva punk song" if we're going to include influences as "punk."
posted by Hoopo at 2:25 PM on September 1, 2011 [2 favorites]
But see that's the whole thesis of the piece. He's not snotty and he's not the guy who calls people on their shit. He's a child. He watched the Jetsons every morning, and he continues to smoke (Kools, of all things) because he likes how they feel after sex, and if he doesn't get to drive a car on a runway he stomps his feet. He has no impulse control and no desire to get any. He's petulant and totally shallow, but not in the way most rich people are shallow -- in a way that is almost like he's not even aware that depth is an option in the first place.
Rusty's got it. Except I don't think the article flatters him at all. I think it reveals him as not a selective taste-maker but a kind of Chauncey Gardner dunce, and I don't think even if he read the profile he would understand that to be the case.
posted by penduluum at 2:26 PM on September 1, 2011
Rusty's got it. Except I don't think the article flatters him at all. I think it reveals him as not a selective taste-maker but a kind of Chauncey Gardner dunce, and I don't think even if he read the profile he would understand that to be the case.
posted by penduluum at 2:26 PM on September 1, 2011
Johnny Rotten gotta eat too.
posted by Squeak Attack at 3:29 PM on September 1, 2011
posted by Squeak Attack at 3:29 PM on September 1, 2011
The hate for Simon Cowell seems to me to be very superficial. People love to hate him because he is "so mean". He isn't mean. He's the guy in the room who calls out bullshit when everyone else is looking for something nice to say.
No, no, no. I hate him because he's produced mountains of literally unavoidable crap that irritates me to no end. I mean, seriously. Look. Look at that shit! Take it in. He is not the man who calls out bullshit when he sees it, but he plays one on TV. He is, in fact, the man that produces said bullshit. This is a man who has produced novelty records for the Power Rangers and the World Wrestling Federation, and he is calling out bullshit?
posted by Hoopo at 4:45 PM on September 1, 2011 [6 favorites]
No, no, no. I hate him because he's produced mountains of literally unavoidable crap that irritates me to no end. I mean, seriously. Look. Look at that shit! Take it in. He is not the man who calls out bullshit when he sees it, but he plays one on TV. He is, in fact, the man that produces said bullshit. This is a man who has produced novelty records for the Power Rangers and the World Wrestling Federation, and he is calling out bullshit?
posted by Hoopo at 4:45 PM on September 1, 2011 [6 favorites]
Cowell's wiki. Daddy got him his first job at EMI. Nuff said.
What pisses me off about Cowell, and yea, I read the whole thing...he talks about himself, is that he has no fucking clue what it's like to be a kid and to get on a stage in a shitty venue in a shitty neighborhood and play your fucking guts out for a couple of hundred angry, drunken, malevolent fuck heads who "gobb" at you and throw stuff.
He doesn't have the first clue of what punk is.
posted by snsranch at 5:17 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
What pisses me off about Cowell, and yea, I read the whole thing...he talks about himself, is that he has no fucking clue what it's like to be a kid and to get on a stage in a shitty venue in a shitty neighborhood and play your fucking guts out for a couple of hundred angry, drunken, malevolent fuck heads who "gobb" at you and throw stuff.
He doesn't have the first clue of what punk is.
posted by snsranch at 5:17 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I kind of like the "say cruel things to people" act that Simon Cowell performs on TV. I hate him because he helps spread shit music.
posted by benito.strauss at 6:03 PM on September 1, 2011
posted by benito.strauss at 6:03 PM on September 1, 2011
Who the fuck gives a shit about any of this shit? I know it's only rock and roll but I motherfuckin' well like it!
posted by nola at 6:17 PM on September 1, 2011
posted by nola at 6:17 PM on September 1, 2011
"Stepping Stone" is a great song, but I think the punkest song ever written was "Fortunate Son."
Here's a great cover by the Circle Jerks.
posted by cazoo at 7:10 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Here's a great cover by the Circle Jerks.
posted by cazoo at 7:10 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
He kind of relied on others to write music, though, right? Pretty much a words-only guy.
yeah I was under the impression Mick Jones was kind of the musical force in the Clash, but I could be wrong.
posted by Hoopo at 7:21 PM on September 1, 2011
yeah I was under the impression Mick Jones was kind of the musical force in the Clash, but I could be wrong.
posted by Hoopo at 7:21 PM on September 1, 2011
I was struck by the fact that intolerance of boredom, persistent irritability, and callous disregard for other people's feelings are all character traits of anti-social personality disorder.
posted by brevator at 7:39 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by brevator at 7:39 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
I would rather listen to a dog try to explain algebra than Simon Cowell talk about punk. His aesthetics and his banking on disgust is everything wrong with culture.
posted by lumpenprole at 8:19 PM on September 1, 2011
posted by lumpenprole at 8:19 PM on September 1, 2011
You understand that the Pistols were a malcolm mclaren concoction developed to sell t-shirt, right?
i understand that completely - i also understand that johnny rotten utterly subverted and transcended all of that through sheer will and personality
it may have been a crass commercial venture and it may have had it's jokey and ironic side
but does anyone really doubt that johnny was seriously PISSED at the world?
i still have mixed feelings about punk and its effects on the music scene - and i lived through that era - that was MY generation's music
but comparing the sex pistols to kenny g? - come on, no one ever beat the shit out of kenny g for his records, did they?
and simon cowell? - well, he's a professional asshole - this is not an insult - it is a description of what his job is
posted by pyramid termite at 8:45 PM on September 1, 2011
i understand that completely - i also understand that johnny rotten utterly subverted and transcended all of that through sheer will and personality
it may have been a crass commercial venture and it may have had it's jokey and ironic side
but does anyone really doubt that johnny was seriously PISSED at the world?
i still have mixed feelings about punk and its effects on the music scene - and i lived through that era - that was MY generation's music
but comparing the sex pistols to kenny g? - come on, no one ever beat the shit out of kenny g for his records, did they?
and simon cowell? - well, he's a professional asshole - this is not an insult - it is a description of what his job is
posted by pyramid termite at 8:45 PM on September 1, 2011
oh, and that saints song was pretty good
posted by pyramid termite at 8:46 PM on September 1, 2011
posted by pyramid termite at 8:46 PM on September 1, 2011
no one ever beat the shit out of kenny g for his records, did they?
Just give me half a chance.
posted by scrowdid at 11:04 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
Just give me half a chance.
posted by scrowdid at 11:04 PM on September 1, 2011 [1 favorite]
What the fuck is wrong with taking yourself seriously? I know the Sex Pistols and The Ramones were kinda joking, but The Clash, political punk, and the modern folk-punks aren't. And that's awesome! There needs to be a space for seriousness and earnestness.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 11:19 PM on September 1, 2011
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 11:19 PM on September 1, 2011
And I keep getting kicked out of punk rock karaoke nights for my out of tune covers of I'm Stranded.
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 11:20 PM on September 1, 2011
posted by Lovecraft In Brooklyn at 11:20 PM on September 1, 2011
The Sex Pistols were a great Punk band. They were a terrible band, but a great Punk band.
It took me a long time to come around to the Sex Pistols. I was born the year Never Mind the Bollocks came out, so obviously I did not experience any of the original punk phenomenon.
I first heard Never Mind The Bollocks in 1990 or so. I didn't get it. I don't know if this is true for many people, but when I heard the versions of those songs on Spunk later on, it all made sense. On Never Mind The Bollocks, Johnny Rotten sounds pretty angry. On Spunk Johnny Rotten sounds like a terrible shrieking demon who's going to tear the world apart and drag you to hell by your shredded entrails. I think something got lost in the recording of Never Mind the Bollocks. I think people who were around for punk see that album differently than I do because they saw what the Sex Pistols were at the time. When I hear Spunk I hear a forcefulness that hints at something Never Mind didn't ever communicate to me, because I wasn't there to behold it.
posted by Hoopo at 11:44 PM on September 1, 2011
It took me a long time to come around to the Sex Pistols. I was born the year Never Mind the Bollocks came out, so obviously I did not experience any of the original punk phenomenon.
I first heard Never Mind The Bollocks in 1990 or so. I didn't get it. I don't know if this is true for many people, but when I heard the versions of those songs on Spunk later on, it all made sense. On Never Mind The Bollocks, Johnny Rotten sounds pretty angry. On Spunk Johnny Rotten sounds like a terrible shrieking demon who's going to tear the world apart and drag you to hell by your shredded entrails. I think something got lost in the recording of Never Mind the Bollocks. I think people who were around for punk see that album differently than I do because they saw what the Sex Pistols were at the time. When I hear Spunk I hear a forcefulness that hints at something Never Mind didn't ever communicate to me, because I wasn't there to behold it.
posted by Hoopo at 11:44 PM on September 1, 2011
Well, I really couldn't give a crap what Simon Cowell thinks about anything... But thanks for that link to the Robbie Williams book. My Irish, Robbie-loving wife will love that as a little surprise present.
It's very fun. I was ambivalent about Robbie when I read it and finished it thinking he was actually a pretty smart guy.
posted by mippy at 3:51 AM on September 2, 2011
It's very fun. I was ambivalent about Robbie when I read it and finished it thinking he was actually a pretty smart guy.
posted by mippy at 3:51 AM on September 2, 2011
I hate him because he's produced mountains of literally unavoidable crap that irritates me to no end.
Yes. He's managed to inflict his own painfully bad taste on an entire culture, and convinced a generation of kids that it's cool to be Whitney Houston. He's History's Greatest Monster.
Well, no; not really. But he is a brutally annoying son of a bitch.
posted by steambadger at 7:25 AM on September 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
Yes. He's managed to inflict his own painfully bad taste on an entire culture, and convinced a generation of kids that it's cool to be Whitney Houston. He's History's Greatest Monster.
Well, no; not really. But he is a brutally annoying son of a bitch.
posted by steambadger at 7:25 AM on September 2, 2011 [2 favorites]
Hoopo, the Pistols were much easier to appreciate right out of the gun after a steady diet of corporate rock, and the 70s were all about corporate rock and more cowbell. The whole punk thing was like a breath of fresh air. A huge part of their appeal, at least for me and many of my friends, was more about the musical contrast than any politics, anger, punk sensibility or any of that rot. Spend a few days listening to nothing but Journey and Supertramp, until you are way beyond sated, and then pull out "Never Mind the Bullocks."
posted by caddis at 7:45 AM on September 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by caddis at 7:45 AM on September 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
It's very fun. I was ambivalent about Robbie when I read it and finished it thinking he was actually a pretty smart guy.
As a Canadian, all I knew about Robbie was that he was the dude that had those two singles ages ago... Rock DJ with the fun video of him taking off his skin and dancing as a skeleton, and Millennium. Little did I know that he was, like, this worldwide superstar who had sold a bagillion albums. But when I met my wife that all changed. I have to say, the man puts on a hell of a show.
posted by antifuse at 8:00 AM on September 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
As a Canadian, all I knew about Robbie was that he was the dude that had those two singles ages ago... Rock DJ with the fun video of him taking off his skin and dancing as a skeleton, and Millennium. Little did I know that he was, like, this worldwide superstar who had sold a bagillion albums. But when I met my wife that all changed. I have to say, the man puts on a hell of a show.
posted by antifuse at 8:00 AM on September 2, 2011 [1 favorite]
"What's money? A man is a success if he gets up in the morning and goes to bed at night and in between does what he wants to do." Bob Dylan (1941 - )
He gets up in the morning, has what he wants for breakfast, ignores the news in favour of cartoons, works in music (FSVO), drives toy sports cars, is injected with vitamins because he likes how it makes him feel, and isn't letting people pressure him into marriage. Just saying.
Of course, as was directly said about him by Simon Amstel, he allegedly isn't married because "he has no time in his busy schedule to be naturally attracted to women".
posted by jaduncan at 10:13 AM on September 2, 2011
He gets up in the morning, has what he wants for breakfast, ignores the news in favour of cartoons, works in music (FSVO), drives toy sports cars, is injected with vitamins because he likes how it makes him feel, and isn't letting people pressure him into marriage. Just saying.
Of course, as was directly said about him by Simon Amstel, he allegedly isn't married because "he has no time in his busy schedule to be naturally attracted to women".
posted by jaduncan at 10:13 AM on September 2, 2011
yes exactly however:
Simon Bowel
You are mistaken sir. It is Simon LeCowell.
posted by FatherDagon at 11:10 AM on September 2, 2011
Simon Bowel
You are mistaken sir. It is Simon LeCowell.
posted by FatherDagon at 11:10 AM on September 2, 2011
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