Jesse Jackson invited to visit the Taliban.
September 26, 2001 10:00 PM Subscribe
Jesse Jackson invited to visit the Taliban. They've asked him to lead a peace delegation to come talk to them; he's thinking it over. My question is this: How far does he have to go before he's providing "aid and comfort" to our enemies (i.e. before he's committing treason)? I hope he'll do the right thing (stay home and shut up) but I doubt it.
In the CNN poll, I was one of the 19% that voted "yes."
I don't think Jackson can promise peace to the Taliban. He doesn't have the political authority to do so, anyhow. He would go as a private citizen, rather than a government envoy. We should bear in mind that the Taliban have, offically, condemned the attacks, and stated that they might be willing to hand over bin Laden, if presented with evidence of his guilt.
It's a shot in the dark; the Taliban are highly unlikely to hand over Mr bin Laden, who may be supporting much of their operation. But it would be preferable to get them to hand over the criminals rather than to go to war with Afghanistan. We might not like the Taliban (hell, nobody likes them) but it would send a messge of fairness to the Muslim world.
At worst, Mr Jackson comes home empty handed. In this case, we proceed with the plan to fuel-air bomb the terrorist training camps and their occupants.
posted by Loudmax at 10:27 PM on September 26, 2001
I don't think Jackson can promise peace to the Taliban. He doesn't have the political authority to do so, anyhow. He would go as a private citizen, rather than a government envoy. We should bear in mind that the Taliban have, offically, condemned the attacks, and stated that they might be willing to hand over bin Laden, if presented with evidence of his guilt.
It's a shot in the dark; the Taliban are highly unlikely to hand over Mr bin Laden, who may be supporting much of their operation. But it would be preferable to get them to hand over the criminals rather than to go to war with Afghanistan. We might not like the Taliban (hell, nobody likes them) but it would send a messge of fairness to the Muslim world.
At worst, Mr Jackson comes home empty handed. In this case, we proceed with the plan to fuel-air bomb the terrorist training camps and their occupants.
posted by Loudmax at 10:27 PM on September 26, 2001
I hope he'll do the right thing (stay home and shut up) but I doubt it.
I don't think there is a clear "right" thing to do here. Getting more information is always good before you make a decision. I'm curious as to what he'd find.
Do you think it's too dangerous and they'll take him hostage or kill him?
posted by mathowie at 10:35 PM on September 26, 2001
I don't think there is a clear "right" thing to do here. Getting more information is always good before you make a decision. I'm curious as to what he'd find.
Do you think it's too dangerous and they'll take him hostage or kill him?
posted by mathowie at 10:35 PM on September 26, 2001
you seem to be missing the point. We're not looking to get them to hand over just Bin Laden. We're going after all the terrorists in his organization, and getting the camps shut down. We don't need to provide them with evidence since they already know he operates a terrorist organization which is all we are concerned about. This is not a criminal investigation but an extermination
posted by rabbit at 10:41 PM on September 26, 2001
posted by rabbit at 10:41 PM on September 26, 2001
I don't think there is a clear "right" thing to do here
huh?!? the last thing needed right now is for someone with a track record as long as JJ's for serving their own interest while rejecting all accountability to do freelance foreign policy in the name of a country he neither cares for nor respects.
posted by nobody_knose at 10:50 PM on September 26, 2001
huh?!? the last thing needed right now is for someone with a track record as long as JJ's for serving their own interest while rejecting all accountability to do freelance foreign policy in the name of a country he neither cares for nor respects.
posted by nobody_knose at 10:50 PM on September 26, 2001
Meeting with representatives of other governments in an attempt to try one's hand at freelance foreign policy is expressly illegal, and anyone other than Jesse Jackson (who has somehow managed to become a "protected class" unto himself) would have been thrown in jail long ago for pulling these stunts, or at least had their passport revoked.
But then, the Taliban is no more the legitimate government of Afghanistan than I am, so I suppose he can technically do whatever he wants in this case.
Do you think it's too dangerous and they'll take him hostage or kill him?
But then, the Taliban is no more the legitimate government of Afghanistan than I am, so I suppose he can technically do whatever he wants in this case.
Do you think it's too dangerous and they'll take him hostage or kill him?
Dangerous to whom, besides himself? If they capture and/or kill him, it'll be largely his own fault. I suppose we'd probably have to Do Something if they did, though, if only because he's an American citizen. They really ought to just yank his passport if he tries to leave the country to go there, though. Just once, he ought to grasp that the situation is tenuous enough that his own ego is slightly less important than potentially escalating tensions.
posted by aaron at 11:20 PM on September 26, 2001
Until now I didn't realize how popular Jesse (or should we call him RevJess?) is outside USA, especially in the Balkans and in the Middle East. This is really amazing. Maybe they consider him trustworthy? Maybe they consider him a non-violent option?
CBS News had an exclusive tonight about five Americans meeting with three Afghans in a secret meeting in a border-town in Pakistan. CBS News showed date-stamped hotel receipts where the Americans registered as 'American Embassy' and the Afghans signed in as 'Afghan Embassy.' ITN News tonight had an interview with Bill Richardson, who as the US ambassador to UN was the last high ranking American to travel to Afghanistan to negotiate peace. [I can't find the links to either item in their websites.]
Both these reports dealt with concerns and experiences in negotiating with the Taliban. Richardson said that the Taliban saw things in Black and White and answered questions with yes and no. They repeatedly side stepped answering questions about Osama bin Laden. Many a times they told Richardson that they had no clue where bin Laden was, or that he can not be found. That negotiation resulted in a cease-fire between the Taliban and the Northern Alliance. Nothing more was gained. This week's secret American delegation also failed to produce bin Laden. US ambassador in Pakistan bluntly denied of any such meeting when asked by the CBS crew.
If the Taliban requested Jesse to be their negotiating partner, maybe they are up to something. It is very likely that they are afraid, and need a face-saving means of getting out of the hole they have dug for themselves.
Matt: "Do you think it's too dangerous and they'll take him hostage or kill him?"
I doubt they’d take him hostage. They already have the American missionaries they had previously captured. I'd assume as an invited guest, they'd grant Jesse the same degree of safety they have given to bin Laden. There are plenty of foreign aid workers and reporters in and around Afghanistan for them to kidnap and hold hostage. If Jesse is harmed while in Afghanistan, I am pretty sure US would not even wait to 'present evidence' to anyone before launching an air-strike. Fox news reported that two Pakistani fishing boats have seen American aircraft carriers. When asked for confirmation, the Pentagon spokesperson told Fox news, "Those ships are not really invisible. You can't hide them."
Steven: "How far does he have to go before he's providing "aid and comfort" to our enemies (i.e. before he's committing treason)?"
nobody_knose: "last thing needed right now is for someone with a track record as long as JJ's for serving their own interest while rejecting all accountability ... in the name of a country he neither cares for nor respects."
Why is there such doubt and disrespect for Jesse? Has he not delivered Americans to safety every time someone lit up the bat signal and sent him to work? Did he not bring home Americans from Iran and the Balkans? I don't think Jesse is in the loop about any American strategy. Or do you mean to suggest having Yak tea and shish kebob in a tent with Mullah Omar is treason?
I'll never understand why Jimmy Carter or Jesse never gets the due respect they deserve. Jesse is not a circus freak show like Don King!
posted by tamim at 11:47 PM on September 26, 2001
CBS News had an exclusive tonight about five Americans meeting with three Afghans in a secret meeting in a border-town in Pakistan. CBS News showed date-stamped hotel receipts where the Americans registered as 'American Embassy' and the Afghans signed in as 'Afghan Embassy.' ITN News tonight had an interview with Bill Richardson, who as the US ambassador to UN was the last high ranking American to travel to Afghanistan to negotiate peace. [I can't find the links to either item in their websites.]
Both these reports dealt with concerns and experiences in negotiating with the Taliban. Richardson said that the Taliban saw things in Black and White and answered questions with yes and no. They repeatedly side stepped answering questions about Osama bin Laden. Many a times they told Richardson that they had no clue where bin Laden was, or that he can not be found. That negotiation resulted in a cease-fire between the Taliban and the Northern Alliance. Nothing more was gained. This week's secret American delegation also failed to produce bin Laden. US ambassador in Pakistan bluntly denied of any such meeting when asked by the CBS crew.
If the Taliban requested Jesse to be their negotiating partner, maybe they are up to something. It is very likely that they are afraid, and need a face-saving means of getting out of the hole they have dug for themselves.
Matt: "Do you think it's too dangerous and they'll take him hostage or kill him?"
I doubt they’d take him hostage. They already have the American missionaries they had previously captured. I'd assume as an invited guest, they'd grant Jesse the same degree of safety they have given to bin Laden. There are plenty of foreign aid workers and reporters in and around Afghanistan for them to kidnap and hold hostage. If Jesse is harmed while in Afghanistan, I am pretty sure US would not even wait to 'present evidence' to anyone before launching an air-strike. Fox news reported that two Pakistani fishing boats have seen American aircraft carriers. When asked for confirmation, the Pentagon spokesperson told Fox news, "Those ships are not really invisible. You can't hide them."
Steven: "How far does he have to go before he's providing "aid and comfort" to our enemies (i.e. before he's committing treason)?"
nobody_knose: "last thing needed right now is for someone with a track record as long as JJ's for serving their own interest while rejecting all accountability ... in the name of a country he neither cares for nor respects."
Why is there such doubt and disrespect for Jesse? Has he not delivered Americans to safety every time someone lit up the bat signal and sent him to work? Did he not bring home Americans from Iran and the Balkans? I don't think Jesse is in the loop about any American strategy. Or do you mean to suggest having Yak tea and shish kebob in a tent with Mullah Omar is treason?
I'll never understand why Jimmy Carter or Jesse never gets the due respect they deserve. Jesse is not a circus freak show like Don King!
posted by tamim at 11:47 PM on September 26, 2001
I hope he'll do the right thing (stay home and shut up)
God forbid someone opens a dialogue with these people that amounts to more than “give up or die.” I suggest those who add to the cry for blood should stay home and shut up. Goose, meet gander.
Meeting with representatives of other governments in an attempt to try one's hand at freelance foreign policy is expressly illegal
If Jean Chretien asks me to come talk about the border and French Canadian chix, it is certainly legal for me to do so. I can’t enter into any sort of quid pro quo agreement if I haven’t been given consent by the government. If I talked to Mullah (good name) about what it would take for peace to come about, I certainly could.
I'll never understand why Jimmy Carter or Jesse never gets the due respect they deserve.
He certainly has more foreign policy experience than Bush II.
posted by raaka at 2:19 AM on September 27, 2001
God forbid someone opens a dialogue with these people that amounts to more than “give up or die.” I suggest those who add to the cry for blood should stay home and shut up. Goose, meet gander.
Meeting with representatives of other governments in an attempt to try one's hand at freelance foreign policy is expressly illegal
If Jean Chretien asks me to come talk about the border and French Canadian chix, it is certainly legal for me to do so. I can’t enter into any sort of quid pro quo agreement if I haven’t been given consent by the government. If I talked to Mullah (good name) about what it would take for peace to come about, I certainly could.
I'll never understand why Jimmy Carter or Jesse never gets the due respect they deserve.
He certainly has more foreign policy experience than Bush II.
posted by raaka at 2:19 AM on September 27, 2001
Hey, if I had Jesse's home-life situation, autumn in Afghanistan would be looking pretty good to me.
Let him go. (Run, Jesse, run!) Sitting down and shutting up wasn't an option for him before all this, anyway. If you thought so little of him before, why express worry about what he does now?
posted by allaboutgeorge at 5:03 AM on September 27, 2001
Let him go. (Run, Jesse, run!) Sitting down and shutting up wasn't an option for him before all this, anyway. If you thought so little of him before, why express worry about what he does now?
posted by allaboutgeorge at 5:03 AM on September 27, 2001
The diplomatic situation here is extremely complex. Nearly every nation out there has its own concerns and internal politics. The State Department has its hands full trying to make some sense out of this and trying to produce a world consensus to back whatever actions are deemed necessary -- and so far Colin Powell and his team seem to be doing a superb job. The problem is that when private citizens start mucking around, they can screw up the process being used by the people who actually are constitutionally chartered to do this job.
Colin Powell is Secretary of State -- Jesse Jackson is nothing more than a private citizen.
As to the chance of Jackson himself being in danger on this mission, I don't consider that to be important. What I'm concerned about is Jackson's bull-in-a-china-shop potential for totally screwing up American Diplomacy with his bombast.
Taliban demands for "evidence" are disingenuous, for two reasons: first, what they really want to know is what kind of intelligence we have so they can close it down, and second, no evidence would ever be enough but the demand for it makes them look reasonable internationally (or so they think). It's a way of seeming to say "Maybe" while actually saying "No". In any case, Jackson has no evidence to give them, so nothing in that would change.
posted by Steven Den Beste at 5:32 AM on September 27, 2001
Colin Powell is Secretary of State -- Jesse Jackson is nothing more than a private citizen.
As to the chance of Jackson himself being in danger on this mission, I don't consider that to be important. What I'm concerned about is Jackson's bull-in-a-china-shop potential for totally screwing up American Diplomacy with his bombast.
Taliban demands for "evidence" are disingenuous, for two reasons: first, what they really want to know is what kind of intelligence we have so they can close it down, and second, no evidence would ever be enough but the demand for it makes them look reasonable internationally (or so they think). It's a way of seeming to say "Maybe" while actually saying "No". In any case, Jackson has no evidence to give them, so nothing in that would change.
posted by Steven Den Beste at 5:32 AM on September 27, 2001
I actually find myself wondering if this has more to do with those American aid workers arrested by the Taliban for "spreading Christianity" than anything to do with Bin Laden. Rev. Jackson has a fairly good track record of getting Americans out of 'hostile' hands ... we should not forget that many abroad know little of his personal/political life and simply see him as the former protege of Martin Luther King.
If the Taliban wants to talk to Jackson why should they not be allowed to talk with Jackson.
nobody_knose: in the name of a country he neither cares for nor respects.
Support this, please....
posted by anastasiav at 5:56 AM on September 27, 2001
If the Taliban wants to talk to Jackson why should they not be allowed to talk with Jackson.
nobody_knose: in the name of a country he neither cares for nor respects.
Support this, please....
posted by anastasiav at 5:56 AM on September 27, 2001
This article lists some of the diplomatic issues that the State Department has been dealing with in the Islamic nations -- but every nation which is involved or might potentially become involved has similar issues. The diplomatic issues involved are iincredibly tangled, and the State Department is having a hard enough time as it is dealing with it all. Jackson is high profile enough so that his involvement could potentially scramble the situation i.e. "Well, let's just wait and see what Jackson does, OK? Get back to us next week and we'll talk to you then."
This is not something the State Department needs right now.
posted by Steven Den Beste at 6:29 AM on September 27, 2001
This is not something the State Department needs right now.
posted by Steven Den Beste at 6:29 AM on September 27, 2001
Nice that they called someone, just terribly unfortunate that it was the media-grandstanding, everything-is-a-race-issue, irreverend J. Jackson. This increases the chances that violence will be done under the guise of race and/or religion.
posted by yesster at 6:40 AM on September 27, 2001
posted by yesster at 6:40 AM on September 27, 2001
He probably shouldn't do it in this particular situation, because the Taliban appears to have no sincere interest except to delay the caputre of BinLaden more.
But its ignorant to call this treason. Jackson, Carter and other citizens can provide a useful service while not sacrificing the foriegn policy goals as you suggest. As a private citizen, he can engage in a negotiation about the release of workers without sacrificing the resolve for war, since he obviously has no control over that. If that were true we would have never had those soldiers back from Kosovo.
Millions of supporters probably qualifies you for use of the word 'we.'
posted by brucec at 7:22 AM on September 27, 2001
But its ignorant to call this treason. Jackson, Carter and other citizens can provide a useful service while not sacrificing the foriegn policy goals as you suggest. As a private citizen, he can engage in a negotiation about the release of workers without sacrificing the resolve for war, since he obviously has no control over that. If that were true we would have never had those soldiers back from Kosovo.
Millions of supporters probably qualifies you for use of the word 'we.'
posted by brucec at 7:22 AM on September 27, 2001
Last I checked, ol' Jess was an American... whether they invited him or not, if he goes he'll probably get whacked. Is this really the time to trust the Taleban? I don't think so. Let's send O.J. instead and see how he does... then we'll talk.
posted by spilon at 7:27 AM on September 27, 2001
posted by spilon at 7:27 AM on September 27, 2001
Jesse just wants to shed some more seed amongst some fine young Afghani honeys. As for his claim that they requested his involvement - rubbish. He probably ran his own terroristic campagin of telemarketing the Taliban until they finally gave in and pretended to invite him.
posted by daragh at 8:31 AM on September 27, 2001
posted by daragh at 8:31 AM on September 27, 2001
Reuters article. It seems that Jesse offered his help. No one asked him. He definately needs to stay out of this.
posted by jbelshaw at 8:59 AM on September 27, 2001
posted by jbelshaw at 8:59 AM on September 27, 2001
This is interesting...
The Taliban, however, said the mediation offer had come from Jackson and had been accepted.
In Islamabad, Abdul Salam Zaeef, the Taliban ambassador to Pakistan, denied the mediation request had come from Afghanistan's rulers.
"We have not invited him, but he offered to mediate, and our leader, Mullah Mohammad Omar, has accepted this offer," Zaeef told the Afghan Islamic Press, a Pakistan-based private news agency.
"He has ordered the authorities to extend cooperation if Jesse Jackson visits Afghanistan. We will have no objection."
posted by madreblu at 9:07 AM on September 27, 2001
The Taliban, however, said the mediation offer had come from Jackson and had been accepted.
In Islamabad, Abdul Salam Zaeef, the Taliban ambassador to Pakistan, denied the mediation request had come from Afghanistan's rulers.
"We have not invited him, but he offered to mediate, and our leader, Mullah Mohammad Omar, has accepted this offer," Zaeef told the Afghan Islamic Press, a Pakistan-based private news agency.
"He has ordered the authorities to extend cooperation if Jesse Jackson visits Afghanistan. We will have no objection."
posted by madreblu at 9:07 AM on September 27, 2001
I lost the rest of my respect for Jackson some years ago.
But if Jesse Jackson or Colin Powell or Michael Jordan or Jerry freaking Seinfeld can help mediate some kind of solution that ends up being acceptable to the Taliban and the U.S., more power to them. Anything that lowers the body count is a good thing.
Only one of those four can speak for the U.S., of course. The Taliban leadership might be doomed, but they're not dense. They know that Jackson can't promise anything to them on behalf of the U.S.
The only downside I can see to a Jackson trip is he might get hurt. If he's willing to accept that risk, it's his choice. He knows the U.S. wouldn't call off the bombers just cause the Taliban chained him to their lone working F-15.
posted by sacre_bleu at 11:15 AM on September 27, 2001
But if Jesse Jackson or Colin Powell or Michael Jordan or Jerry freaking Seinfeld can help mediate some kind of solution that ends up being acceptable to the Taliban and the U.S., more power to them. Anything that lowers the body count is a good thing.
Only one of those four can speak for the U.S., of course. The Taliban leadership might be doomed, but they're not dense. They know that Jackson can't promise anything to them on behalf of the U.S.
The only downside I can see to a Jackson trip is he might get hurt. If he's willing to accept that risk, it's his choice. He knows the U.S. wouldn't call off the bombers just cause the Taliban chained him to their lone working F-15.
posted by sacre_bleu at 11:15 AM on September 27, 2001
like him or not, jesse has pull when it comes to matters like these. and if he can somehow swing a trade to get bin laden in exchange for peace - then who better?
keep in mind that i appreciate the irony that jackson is not only an american, and not only a Christian, but a christian minister - something that has gotten americans imprisioned recently in Afghanistan.
posted by tsarfan at 12:12 PM on September 27, 2001
keep in mind that i appreciate the irony that jackson is not only an american, and not only a Christian, but a christian minister - something that has gotten americans imprisioned recently in Afghanistan.
posted by tsarfan at 12:12 PM on September 27, 2001
God forbid that someone should discuss or seek peace in the midst of this hysterical but kinda cool march toward war (right-wing agendas are flying high again!) Our hired killers really don't need any distraction brought on by talks of peace. We need our boys razor sharp, from Powell and Rumsfeld on down. Why, what if our hired killers were to become confused by talks of peace and launch cruise missiles against aspirin factories or civilian airliners? What if our foreign policy fellas became a bit befuddled and tried overthrowing a brutal Middle Eastern dictator by starving and denying medicine to that country's children?
We are the home of the brave. We must remain sharp. We must not become confused or distracted. We need a sharp Bush too, (although using the phrase "razor sharp" may move us into the set of unforgivable oxymorons). What we don't need is Bush more confused by any talk of peace. Why, what if he and his staff start hallucinating more special "code word" threats to Air Force One, making him skeedaddle back to his Barksdale/Nebraska bunker complex again?
Frankly, it's them or us, damnit. That's all the reason any of you pinkos should need. Our hired killer are better than their hired killers. Our religious fundamentalism is better than their religious fundamentalism. And goddamnit to hell, those Talebaners can't even tell one end of a football from the other.
Look. We absolutely don't need some meddling minister screwing the war up by resolving parts of this situation peacefully. Religious figures should be relegated to getting Christian prayers back into our public schools, banning works of art that offend Christians, blessing cannons, advertising on TeeVee for new adherents "during this time of national tragedy", (www.billygraham.org), or pointing out that we brought this terrorism on ourselves because some of us have the unbelievable gall to want to extend human rights to homosexuals.
In other words, we want all our religious figures to be more like Taleban clerics. Get it, Jesse?
Our God is not happy with us now, but He's not confused by any talks of peace (the New Testament notwithstanding), and He will get giddy once we bomb a few Moslems for Him. And a Happy God gives us Money.
Burn in hell, Jackson, you peacemonger.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 12:21 PM on September 27, 2001
We are the home of the brave. We must remain sharp. We must not become confused or distracted. We need a sharp Bush too, (although using the phrase "razor sharp" may move us into the set of unforgivable oxymorons). What we don't need is Bush more confused by any talk of peace. Why, what if he and his staff start hallucinating more special "code word" threats to Air Force One, making him skeedaddle back to his Barksdale/Nebraska bunker complex again?
Frankly, it's them or us, damnit. That's all the reason any of you pinkos should need. Our hired killer are better than their hired killers. Our religious fundamentalism is better than their religious fundamentalism. And goddamnit to hell, those Talebaners can't even tell one end of a football from the other.
Look. We absolutely don't need some meddling minister screwing the war up by resolving parts of this situation peacefully. Religious figures should be relegated to getting Christian prayers back into our public schools, banning works of art that offend Christians, blessing cannons, advertising on TeeVee for new adherents "during this time of national tragedy", (www.billygraham.org), or pointing out that we brought this terrorism on ourselves because some of us have the unbelievable gall to want to extend human rights to homosexuals.
In other words, we want all our religious figures to be more like Taleban clerics. Get it, Jesse?
Our God is not happy with us now, but He's not confused by any talks of peace (the New Testament notwithstanding), and He will get giddy once we bomb a few Moslems for Him. And a Happy God gives us Money.
Burn in hell, Jackson, you peacemonger.
posted by fold_and_mutilate at 12:21 PM on September 27, 2001
Send Michael Jackson. Please.
posted by adampsyche at 12:22 PM on September 27, 2001
posted by adampsyche at 12:22 PM on September 27, 2001
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posted by Steven Den Beste at 10:00 PM on September 26, 2001