Here are the young men
December 18, 2011 11:19 AM Subscribe
Marked. Photographer Claire Felicie photographed the marines of the 13th infantry company of the Royal Netherlands Marine Corps, before, during and after their deployment in Uruzgan.
403 Forbidden is the military's code given to Canadians attempting to gain unauthorized access.
posted by gman at 11:58 AM on December 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by gman at 11:58 AM on December 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Link is directly to the photographer's site: http://www.clairefelicie.com/here-are-the-young-men Apologies if it's not working.
posted by jokeefe at 12:25 PM on December 18, 2011
posted by jokeefe at 12:25 PM on December 18, 2011
Looking at the marked series shows just that, young men becoming somehow less whole than their true selves. There has to be something wrong with how wars are now waged if the victors themselves do not have a better image to show for their dear sacrifices.
posted by Meatafoecure at 12:30 PM on December 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Meatafoecure at 12:30 PM on December 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Looking at the marked series shows just that, young men becoming somehow less whole than their true selves. There has to be something wrong with how wars are now waged if the victors themselves do not have a better image to show for their dear sacrifices.
Really? I mostly saw pictures that looked pretty similar and certainly nothing that indicated that the "after" shots showed people "somehow less whole." I'd wager that if the narrative about this was different, these were pictures taken before during and after a white water rafting trip, what was seen in them would be a lot different.
I liked the pictures, and I like the idea, I just think what I saw was confirmation bias bait.
posted by OmieWise at 12:48 PM on December 18, 2011 [9 favorites]
Really? I mostly saw pictures that looked pretty similar and certainly nothing that indicated that the "after" shots showed people "somehow less whole." I'd wager that if the narrative about this was different, these were pictures taken before during and after a white water rafting trip, what was seen in them would be a lot different.
I liked the pictures, and I like the idea, I just think what I saw was confirmation bias bait.
posted by OmieWise at 12:48 PM on December 18, 2011 [9 favorites]
Looks like the site is just under really heavy load; working for me now randomly. Also, I'm with Decani.
posted by Canageek at 1:09 PM on December 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by Canageek at 1:09 PM on December 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
I think it is pretty awesome, but all I am seeing is three guys. Great intent, but would be better served had there been more subjects.
posted by timsteil at 1:13 PM on December 18, 2011
posted by timsteil at 1:13 PM on December 18, 2011
I'm a little stunned at those who don't see a difference. Look at the eyes and mouth. These are changed men.
posted by Auguris at 1:36 PM on December 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
posted by Auguris at 1:36 PM on December 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
Very changed, especially the third picture... Heres what I see:
- first: young and open
- second: weathered a bit, active, some lines around eyes and mouth, tightening up, like they see or do things that are very difficult
- third: devastation - circles round eyes, bitterness or tightness (real unhappiness), lines around the mouth - the recognition that the difficult things are with them for life and they haven't reconciled to it
posted by zia at 1:54 PM on December 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
- first: young and open
- second: weathered a bit, active, some lines around eyes and mouth, tightening up, like they see or do things that are very difficult
- third: devastation - circles round eyes, bitterness or tightness (real unhappiness), lines around the mouth - the recognition that the difficult things are with them for life and they haven't reconciled to it
posted by zia at 1:54 PM on December 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
- the recognition that the difficult things are with them for life and they haven't reconciled to it
You can tell that from the picture? I really doubt it.
Look, I don't doubt that these guys were changed by their time in Afghanistan, I'm not in any way dismissing that. And I'm sure that a lot of that change amounts to some pretty heavy shit that they went through and will likely continue to go through. But the psychological marks you're claiming to see are much more equivocal than you're suggesting. The weathering/aging you see, for instance, is something that happens to anyone who spends a year mostly outside.
posted by OmieWise at 2:23 PM on December 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
You can tell that from the picture? I really doubt it.
Look, I don't doubt that these guys were changed by their time in Afghanistan, I'm not in any way dismissing that. And I'm sure that a lot of that change amounts to some pretty heavy shit that they went through and will likely continue to go through. But the psychological marks you're claiming to see are much more equivocal than you're suggesting. The weathering/aging you see, for instance, is something that happens to anyone who spends a year mostly outside.
posted by OmieWise at 2:23 PM on December 18, 2011 [2 favorites]
The weathering/aging you see, for instance, is something that happens to anyone who spends a year mostly outside.
Or anyone who gets older as time passes.
posted by Brocktoon at 2:57 PM on December 18, 2011
Or anyone who gets older as time passes.
posted by Brocktoon at 2:57 PM on December 18, 2011
Inability to see something subtle is a trait. Being unable to see it doesn't mean that which is subtle is not there, and it definitely doesn't mean that which is subtle isn't indicative of something significant...............
posted by cdalight at 4:50 PM on December 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
posted by cdalight at 4:50 PM on December 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
That is some serious multiple negation. Gave me a serious headache.
posted by Brocktoon at 5:04 PM on December 18, 2011
posted by Brocktoon at 5:04 PM on December 18, 2011
There are things that make it difficult or impossible for people to talk about war experiences, decades later.
Some people only recognize the kind of 'dead' that applies to a physical body. Torturers know better.
Here it's visible. And the people who most definitely -should- see it before they enlist are those who can understand it.
posted by Twang at 9:12 PM on December 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Some people only recognize the kind of 'dead' that applies to a physical body. Torturers know better.
Here it's visible. And the people who most definitely -should- see it before they enlist are those who can understand it.
posted by Twang at 9:12 PM on December 18, 2011 [1 favorite]
Mr Pseudonymph was deployed to Iraq 6 years ago, his first overseas deployment. He was 21 then and though he's always been a fairly reticent, laid-back, strong-silent-type guy, he was different when he came home 8 months later.
He was very jumpy when driving for the first month or so, he didn't want to go outside much at all - he spent most of the first few weeks on our couch, watching TV. He was much quieter then when he left, he didn't speak much and found it a big drain talking to anyone. (Which was problematic, since he has a huge family and all of them wanted to call and talk to him again, since no-one had been able to his entire deployment. He could barely manage more than 5 minutes per person before he needed to bail)
His mother, after that first phone call, was worried. She could feel the difference in him the same way I could.
He's still never talked to me about it in any depth. He's told me isolated stories here and there, but nothing bad or upsetting. Just tales of the silly stuff they got up to when they were bored (Running naked in the -20 degree temperatures! There is video. The snow is flying sideways) or what the weather was like, the countryside, etc.
I offered to talk way back when he first arrived home and intermittently since then and only actually asked him to once. He said no, and I left it. He's the kind of guy who likes to think about things slowly and on his own, so I figured he'd work out if he needed help and ask me.
4 years after that first deployment, he was called up for Afghanistan and sent to Oruzgan. I was terrified, since he was permanently changed by the first one. I think the first experience inured him in some way though because, though he was troubled when he came home again, he recovered much more quickly and noticeably.
I still had our friends quietly asking me if he was doing okay, so he must have been visibly different but i could see that fundamentally, he was much stronger this time.
Physically - yeah, you can see a difference. I have photos from just before he left for Afghanistan, one portrait taken by a fellow soldier who was a (talented!) amateur photographer while he was there, and our photos from his return parties. The difference in stress lines on his face is quite noticeable, so i can only imagine how marked they were on his first trip.
posted by pseudonymph at 12:09 AM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
He was very jumpy when driving for the first month or so, he didn't want to go outside much at all - he spent most of the first few weeks on our couch, watching TV. He was much quieter then when he left, he didn't speak much and found it a big drain talking to anyone. (Which was problematic, since he has a huge family and all of them wanted to call and talk to him again, since no-one had been able to his entire deployment. He could barely manage more than 5 minutes per person before he needed to bail)
His mother, after that first phone call, was worried. She could feel the difference in him the same way I could.
He's still never talked to me about it in any depth. He's told me isolated stories here and there, but nothing bad or upsetting. Just tales of the silly stuff they got up to when they were bored (Running naked in the -20 degree temperatures! There is video. The snow is flying sideways) or what the weather was like, the countryside, etc.
I offered to talk way back when he first arrived home and intermittently since then and only actually asked him to once. He said no, and I left it. He's the kind of guy who likes to think about things slowly and on his own, so I figured he'd work out if he needed help and ask me.
4 years after that first deployment, he was called up for Afghanistan and sent to Oruzgan. I was terrified, since he was permanently changed by the first one. I think the first experience inured him in some way though because, though he was troubled when he came home again, he recovered much more quickly and noticeably.
I still had our friends quietly asking me if he was doing okay, so he must have been visibly different but i could see that fundamentally, he was much stronger this time.
Physically - yeah, you can see a difference. I have photos from just before he left for Afghanistan, one portrait taken by a fellow soldier who was a (talented!) amateur photographer while he was there, and our photos from his return parties. The difference in stress lines on his face is quite noticeable, so i can only imagine how marked they were on his first trip.
posted by pseudonymph at 12:09 AM on December 20, 2011 [2 favorites]
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posted by Canageek at 11:55 AM on December 18, 2011