Free speach on college campuses
October 13, 2001 2:52 PM Subscribe
Free speach on college campuses [cnn.com] isn't thriving in these paranoid times. Several professors and others in academia are being investigated, suspended, and criticized for their opionion on the terrorist attacks. Will this become a new wave of McCarthyism?
entropy: sorry, I wasn't referring to you -- reference is to the college protesters.
posted by davidmsc at 3:04 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by davidmsc at 3:04 PM on October 13, 2001
richard berthold has been trying to test people's tolerance of truly free speech since before i ever went to UNM. he wrote a column in the paper several times a semester that generated a lot of letters. he's never been disciplined, AFAIK, and i don't think he'll be disciplined this time. i was truly surprised to hear that people were threatening him -- i've never known anyone on that campus to really care THAT much. of course, sources tell me the new freshman class dresses up for school like they're going to clubs, so what do i know?
posted by sugarfish at 3:08 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by sugarfish at 3:08 PM on October 13, 2001
Speaking as an opinionated jerk myself, I've learned in my fortysomething years on Earth not to say every single thing that pops into my li'l ol' haid out loud.
posted by MrBaliHai at 3:12 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by MrBaliHai at 3:12 PM on October 13, 2001
So the ultralefties on campus are finally getting a taste of their own medicine, eh? Good. They have constantly harassed and threatened conservative speakers on campus for decades (and often, moderates too) in exactly the same manners as described in this article. Nobody ever cared then. I don't care now. Parts is parts.
posted by aaron at 3:12 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by aaron at 3:12 PM on October 13, 2001
Ah, Berkeley! At the University of Censorship, a Daily Cal cartoon of two turbaned terrorists brings fervent cries for apologies and--a rent increase?
posted by Carol Anne at 3:19 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by Carol Anne at 3:19 PM on October 13, 2001
Ah, right, aaron. To hell with Free Speech, as long as it suits your partisan politics.
posted by jpoulos at 3:32 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by jpoulos at 3:32 PM on October 13, 2001
jpoulos, I can't speak for aaron but at the same time I don't think you're seeing the point. Time and time again, anybody not leaning left of center was tormented off of campuses. I've read interviews where speakers have had to have campus police protect the stage because leftist groups had threatened to attack the speaker. Now, some of those who organized those kinds of protests are seeing the same anger being directed at them and all of a sudden it's a "free speech" issue. Why was it not a free speech issue when a conservative spoke? Where were the calls from those who believe in free speech then?
My read of aaron's post is that it's fine time that the left got a taste of what they've been dishing out. No speech is being banned, it's just going to create such a political backlash that you may find yourself out of a job (which btw, the workplace does not have to guarantee free speech).
This sort of brings me to a related subject which is that the article implies that the educational system is supposed to be a platform for presenting one's views. Excuse me, but I thought the educational system was for education. I can't even tell you how many class sessions I've had to sit through with some left-leaning professor pontificating his/her views. Problem is, the views were on subjects that had nothing to do with the course. Listen, Dr. Jackass, but this is a music class so I don't understand why you've spent an hour ranting about US policy in Central America. Teachers should teach, not promote their personal agenda. They can have all the free speech they want outside of the classroom but while in the classroom, shut the hell up and teach what you're being paid to teach.
posted by billman at 4:11 PM on October 13, 2001
My read of aaron's post is that it's fine time that the left got a taste of what they've been dishing out. No speech is being banned, it's just going to create such a political backlash that you may find yourself out of a job (which btw, the workplace does not have to guarantee free speech).
This sort of brings me to a related subject which is that the article implies that the educational system is supposed to be a platform for presenting one's views. Excuse me, but I thought the educational system was for education. I can't even tell you how many class sessions I've had to sit through with some left-leaning professor pontificating his/her views. Problem is, the views were on subjects that had nothing to do with the course. Listen, Dr. Jackass, but this is a music class so I don't understand why you've spent an hour ranting about US policy in Central America. Teachers should teach, not promote their personal agenda. They can have all the free speech they want outside of the classroom but while in the classroom, shut the hell up and teach what you're being paid to teach.
posted by billman at 4:11 PM on October 13, 2001
erron, you ignorant slut. <various rants deleted because it's a waste of electricity to think you could ever grow or develop as a human being from anything written>. All I'm asking is that you would be so kind as to link the David Horowitz or Ann Coulter articles standing up for free speech in these situations- when it isn't about trolling with inflammatory rhetoric just to drum up controver$y and thu$ increased future $peaking fee$...
posted by hincandenza at 4:17 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by hincandenza at 4:17 PM on October 13, 2001
A relevant, and excellent, Suck.com piece about David Horowitz. Man, do I miss those guys.
posted by boaz at 4:23 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by boaz at 4:23 PM on October 13, 2001
Time and time again, anybody not leaning left of center was tormented off of campuses.
That's an extraordinary overstatement.
Where were the calls from those who believe in free speech then?
Since they were mostly on the left, they were probably saying "these protesters have a right to criticize this speaker". The right has never cared much for the First Amendment, so it's no surprise that they didn't come to the aid of their own, in these unnamed examples you're thinking of.
My read of aaron's post is that it's fine time that the left got a taste of what they've been dishing out.
Which is exactly what I'm objecting to.
I can't even tell you how many class sessions I've had to sit through with some left-leaning professor pontificating his/her views.
So have I. They never seemed to bother me, though. :-)
Listen, Dr. Jackass, but this is a music class so I don't understand why you've spent an hour ranting about US policy in Central America.
Is this some sort of supressed resentment that you're just now able to come to terms with? Seriously, these guys are everywhere, and on both ends of the political spectrum. Sure, academia tends to be dominated by liberals (I happen to believe it's because the more you learn, the more you see the Truth, but that's just a theory), and business is dominated by conservatives. I hated classes that went off on tangents, too, but it's certainly not a phenomenon exclusive to liberals.
posted by jpoulos at 5:45 PM on October 13, 2001
That's an extraordinary overstatement.
Where were the calls from those who believe in free speech then?
Since they were mostly on the left, they were probably saying "these protesters have a right to criticize this speaker". The right has never cared much for the First Amendment, so it's no surprise that they didn't come to the aid of their own, in these unnamed examples you're thinking of.
My read of aaron's post is that it's fine time that the left got a taste of what they've been dishing out.
Which is exactly what I'm objecting to.
I can't even tell you how many class sessions I've had to sit through with some left-leaning professor pontificating his/her views.
So have I. They never seemed to bother me, though. :-)
Listen, Dr. Jackass, but this is a music class so I don't understand why you've spent an hour ranting about US policy in Central America.
Is this some sort of supressed resentment that you're just now able to come to terms with? Seriously, these guys are everywhere, and on both ends of the political spectrum. Sure, academia tends to be dominated by liberals (I happen to believe it's because the more you learn, the more you see the Truth, but that's just a theory), and business is dominated by conservatives. I hated classes that went off on tangents, too, but it's certainly not a phenomenon exclusive to liberals.
posted by jpoulos at 5:45 PM on October 13, 2001
Er, no, as a matter of fact, it isn't morally acceptable to give them "a taste of their own medicine." Any conservative who preaches that had better not complain the next time s/he gets threatened during a campus visit, because they'll have completely undermined what was left of their own moral high ground. (Conservatives like to catch liberals in self-contradictions; two can play that game.) Far better to heap coals of fire on the liberals' collective head by emphasizing freedom of speech for all--scoring some points thereby.
posted by thomas j wise at 5:46 PM on October 13, 2001
posted by thomas j wise at 5:46 PM on October 13, 2001
Seems to me that if a teaher is annoying classmembers because contantly harping on plitical matters rather than on subject matter the students ought to addres the issue (1) to the teacher, (2) next to the chair of that dept, (3) if still no satisfaction, to the dean of the college, (4) the academic VP. It won't go that far, believe me.
Instead, what we get is a bunch of disgruntled students complaining among themselves or on-line.
posted by Postroad at 6:24 PM on October 13, 2001
Instead, what we get is a bunch of disgruntled students complaining among themselves or on-line.
posted by Postroad at 6:24 PM on October 13, 2001
The right has never cared much for the First Amendment
Thank you for completely flushing down the toilet any reason to continue listening to you on this topic.
Oh, and real Carol Anne's link.
posted by aaron at 10:18 PM on October 13, 2001
jpoulos, well since somebody posted a link of one of the more noteable cases of what you refer to as "an extraordinary overstatement" and "unnamed examples", I'll just repost the link and post some commentary:
http://www.suck.com/daily/2001/04/02/1.html
I'm not a David Horowitz fan but the fact that he sent a paid advertisement titled "Ten Reasons Why Reparations for Slavery is a Bad Idea for Blacks — and Racist Too" to 52 college newspapers, Berkley students confiscated copies of the Daily Californian and occupied the paper's offices, seems to indicate that free speech is not exactly practiced too closely at Berkley.
I'm sure I can dig up more than a few articles on other cases of students protesting and threatening conservative speakers because it happens with some regularity. In fact, Horowitz's publicity stunt was intended to demonstrate that point in such a way as to lure the left into doing exactly what he knew they would.
Is this some sort of supressed resentment that you're just now able to come to terms with?
No, no supressed resentment here :-)
I just found it odd. Unfortunately, doing as Postroad suggested is almost comical. I have on many occassions debated professors and quickly learned that my grades were the professor's final word in any debate. Complaining up the chain of command, as you will (sorry, I'm an ex-military guy), to a chain of command who agrees with the instructor is almost a sure way to do nothing but make your life a living hell. In a way, it taught me a valuable business lesson, sometimes you have to bite your tongue and tell people what they want to hear if you want to stay employed.
Also, I don't really agree with your analysis of why liberals are attracted to academia, but I'll leave that one for another day (suggest you do some research into the SAT scores of students who eventually become professors -- not really supportive of your hypothesis). But I would like to say that my objection is not to liberal vs. conservative views, it's any instructor who decides to ditch teaching in favor of preaching. It just happens that since most teachers tend to be liberals, that is the pov that seems to be beaten over your head.
And lastly, to answer Mr. Wise, it is morally acceptable. Just as it is morally acceptable when liberals protest or boycott conservatives. The only chuckle I'm getting out of this is that they are positioning it as a free speech issue. Bill Maher tried to this too and there's this huge leap in faith you have to make that the one is guranteed the right to have a television show. I could care less about what he said, but the fact that he felt that having his television show taken away was an issue of free speech was what got me. Listen, everybody has a right to say what they want to say. Everybody has a right to protest or boycott that message. What they don't have the right of is to say what they want in a place of work. They don't have the right to say it on television if sponsors are not willing to pay for it. The issue is that the leaning of the country has changed dramaticly over the last few weeks and now the left is getting a taste of having very little public support.
posted by billman at 10:56 PM on October 13, 2001
http://www.suck.com/daily/2001/04/02/1.html
I'm not a David Horowitz fan but the fact that he sent a paid advertisement titled "Ten Reasons Why Reparations for Slavery is a Bad Idea for Blacks — and Racist Too" to 52 college newspapers, Berkley students confiscated copies of the Daily Californian and occupied the paper's offices, seems to indicate that free speech is not exactly practiced too closely at Berkley.
I'm sure I can dig up more than a few articles on other cases of students protesting and threatening conservative speakers because it happens with some regularity. In fact, Horowitz's publicity stunt was intended to demonstrate that point in such a way as to lure the left into doing exactly what he knew they would.
Is this some sort of supressed resentment that you're just now able to come to terms with?
No, no supressed resentment here :-)
I just found it odd. Unfortunately, doing as Postroad suggested is almost comical. I have on many occassions debated professors and quickly learned that my grades were the professor's final word in any debate. Complaining up the chain of command, as you will (sorry, I'm an ex-military guy), to a chain of command who agrees with the instructor is almost a sure way to do nothing but make your life a living hell. In a way, it taught me a valuable business lesson, sometimes you have to bite your tongue and tell people what they want to hear if you want to stay employed.
Also, I don't really agree with your analysis of why liberals are attracted to academia, but I'll leave that one for another day (suggest you do some research into the SAT scores of students who eventually become professors -- not really supportive of your hypothesis). But I would like to say that my objection is not to liberal vs. conservative views, it's any instructor who decides to ditch teaching in favor of preaching. It just happens that since most teachers tend to be liberals, that is the pov that seems to be beaten over your head.
And lastly, to answer Mr. Wise, it is morally acceptable. Just as it is morally acceptable when liberals protest or boycott conservatives. The only chuckle I'm getting out of this is that they are positioning it as a free speech issue. Bill Maher tried to this too and there's this huge leap in faith you have to make that the one is guranteed the right to have a television show. I could care less about what he said, but the fact that he felt that having his television show taken away was an issue of free speech was what got me. Listen, everybody has a right to say what they want to say. Everybody has a right to protest or boycott that message. What they don't have the right of is to say what they want in a place of work. They don't have the right to say it on television if sponsors are not willing to pay for it. The issue is that the leaning of the country has changed dramaticly over the last few weeks and now the left is getting a taste of having very little public support.
posted by billman at 10:56 PM on October 13, 2001
and now the left is getting a taste of having very little public support.
When has the left ever had much in the way of public support?
And by the way, wasn't Bill Maher agreeing with Dinesh D'souza's comments in re: courage vs. cowardice? At least, that was how the transcript I saw sure looked. D'souza's leftist credentials seem rather vague to me.
Shrug Sorry, conservatives refuse to take leftists seriously when they catch them in free-speech contradictions. It would be perfectly appropriate for the opposite side to do the same. Perhaps we should start over from zero?
As for conservative students oppressed by their faculty: unfortunately, the first thing I always think of in this regard is the Young Republican I knew as an undergraduate. He was sure that those nasty liberal faculty were penalizing him for his viewpoints. Of course, he never went to class when he "got bored." After several classes with him (or, more exactly, without him), it seemed to me that he was being penalized for being a lousy student. We've got another one of this type at the college where I'm currently teaching; as a colleague of mine who agrees with him wails, "but he doesn't have the faintest grasp of how to write!" Of course, we've also got the students who claim that you're a racist if you give them bad grades, or anti-female, or anti-Christian (this amuses my colleagues, most of whom are regular churchgoers), or anti-god-knows-what.
posted by thomas j wise at 6:30 AM on October 14, 2001
When has the left ever had much in the way of public support?
And by the way, wasn't Bill Maher agreeing with Dinesh D'souza's comments in re: courage vs. cowardice? At least, that was how the transcript I saw sure looked. D'souza's leftist credentials seem rather vague to me.
Shrug Sorry, conservatives refuse to take leftists seriously when they catch them in free-speech contradictions. It would be perfectly appropriate for the opposite side to do the same. Perhaps we should start over from zero?
As for conservative students oppressed by their faculty: unfortunately, the first thing I always think of in this regard is the Young Republican I knew as an undergraduate. He was sure that those nasty liberal faculty were penalizing him for his viewpoints. Of course, he never went to class when he "got bored." After several classes with him (or, more exactly, without him), it seemed to me that he was being penalized for being a lousy student. We've got another one of this type at the college where I'm currently teaching; as a colleague of mine who agrees with him wails, "but he doesn't have the faintest grasp of how to write!" Of course, we've also got the students who claim that you're a racist if you give them bad grades, or anti-female, or anti-Christian (this amuses my colleagues, most of whom are regular churchgoers), or anti-god-knows-what.
posted by thomas j wise at 6:30 AM on October 14, 2001
So the ultralefties on campus are finally getting a taste of their own medicine, eh?
Reread the article without the ideological blinders. Medicine is being given to academics who made strong statements for military action, too. One of the professors chased off campus didn't say anything inflammatory -- he was asked about ties to suspected terrorists and a thinktank he founded that was investigated by the FBI, and the question alone was enough to cause him to get a death threat.
posted by rcade at 7:20 AM on October 14, 2001
Reread the article without the ideological blinders. Medicine is being given to academics who made strong statements for military action, too. One of the professors chased off campus didn't say anything inflammatory -- he was asked about ties to suspected terrorists and a thinktank he founded that was investigated by the FBI, and the question alone was enough to cause him to get a death threat.
posted by rcade at 7:20 AM on October 14, 2001
As for conservative students oppressed by their faculty
Ahhhh . . . but the difference being that I did not skip classes and instead changed the tone of my remarks only to watch my grades make a strikingly similar change. Can't speak for your YR friend.
And, I thought the following quote was pretty clear "I could care less about what he said" when referring to the Bill Maher remark. Just as I had said, when referencing my previous instructors that "my objection is not to liberal vs. conservative views". Anyone who claims that not being able to express themselves in the workplace is a violation of free speech does not understand free speech. Anyone who boycotts or attempts to stop one from speaking and views their actions as their right to free speech but considers it a violation of their rights when others oppose their views, is at best ignorant of how free speech works and is more likely a walking hypocracy.
BTW, I am not a Republican but tend to think of myself in the way of a Lincoln or Teddy Roosevelt type of conservative (just to clarify, it was the right wing that first proposed the end of slavery, and Teddy Roosevelt probably did more for conservation than any other president, past or present). I believe in a small central government and my social views are probably considered more liberal than most Democrats. Believe me, I find just as much humor in the far right as I do in the far left. The difference is that the far right tends to be looked at negatively and is openly mocked while the far left tends to wrap themselves in issues that they can guilt the public into unwilling support. Thus my amusement when the left, in this case, cries out about unfair treatment.
posted by billman at 7:45 AM on October 14, 2001
Ahhhh . . . but the difference being that I did not skip classes and instead changed the tone of my remarks only to watch my grades make a strikingly similar change. Can't speak for your YR friend.
And, I thought the following quote was pretty clear "I could care less about what he said" when referring to the Bill Maher remark. Just as I had said, when referencing my previous instructors that "my objection is not to liberal vs. conservative views". Anyone who claims that not being able to express themselves in the workplace is a violation of free speech does not understand free speech. Anyone who boycotts or attempts to stop one from speaking and views their actions as their right to free speech but considers it a violation of their rights when others oppose their views, is at best ignorant of how free speech works and is more likely a walking hypocracy.
BTW, I am not a Republican but tend to think of myself in the way of a Lincoln or Teddy Roosevelt type of conservative (just to clarify, it was the right wing that first proposed the end of slavery, and Teddy Roosevelt probably did more for conservation than any other president, past or present). I believe in a small central government and my social views are probably considered more liberal than most Democrats. Believe me, I find just as much humor in the far right as I do in the far left. The difference is that the far right tends to be looked at negatively and is openly mocked while the far left tends to wrap themselves in issues that they can guilt the public into unwilling support. Thus my amusement when the left, in this case, cries out about unfair treatment.
posted by billman at 7:45 AM on October 14, 2001
it was the right wing that first proposed the end of slavery
This seems like an anachronism. What do "right wing" and "left wing" mean when applied to American politics of the 1840s?
Republican Party != "right wing"
posted by rodii at 9:46 AM on October 14, 2001
This seems like an anachronism. What do "right wing" and "left wing" mean when applied to American politics of the 1840s?
Republican Party != "right wing"
posted by rodii at 9:46 AM on October 14, 2001
Actually, it was an extremley conservative religious group in Germany who began speaking out against slavery.
Which in part was my point about conservative != Repulican (at least any more). Both of the current parties are mutant forms of what they started out as. Each side began looking for the cash and their party platforms became the victims of special interest groups.
Sorry if I didn't make that clear but the point I was making was that I consider myself a conservative of the 1840's era, not today's era. As such, I find it funny because everyone assumes either a for or against attitude on every issue as the special interest groups define them. I live in LA and I cannot even begin to tell you the number of times during the election that I would be sitting in a bar or in a resteraunt or at work or ?? and have someone make a comment like "That Bush. Can you believe that guy?" and if you answered, "What exactly is it you dislike about him?", you would get a "Oh, I didn't know you were one of those". One of what? I asked a simple question. I have to be pro-Bush because I've asked someone to articulate their feelings (which they offered to me unsolicited)? The world is not black and white. There are shades of gray. So my amusement over the lefties getting a taste of their own tactics being used against them is not a support for the other side, it's simply amusement of an outsider looking in.
posted by billman at 10:37 AM on October 14, 2001
Which in part was my point about conservative != Repulican (at least any more). Both of the current parties are mutant forms of what they started out as. Each side began looking for the cash and their party platforms became the victims of special interest groups.
Sorry if I didn't make that clear but the point I was making was that I consider myself a conservative of the 1840's era, not today's era. As such, I find it funny because everyone assumes either a for or against attitude on every issue as the special interest groups define them. I live in LA and I cannot even begin to tell you the number of times during the election that I would be sitting in a bar or in a resteraunt or at work or ?? and have someone make a comment like "That Bush. Can you believe that guy?" and if you answered, "What exactly is it you dislike about him?", you would get a "Oh, I didn't know you were one of those". One of what? I asked a simple question. I have to be pro-Bush because I've asked someone to articulate their feelings (which they offered to me unsolicited)? The world is not black and white. There are shades of gray. So my amusement over the lefties getting a taste of their own tactics being used against them is not a support for the other side, it's simply amusement of an outsider looking in.
posted by billman at 10:37 AM on October 14, 2001
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No. Free speech is wonderful; everyone has the right to express themselves, even if they make perfect asses of themselves in the process.
posted by davidmsc at 3:03 PM on October 13, 2001