Who forgot what about Poland?
June 22, 2012 2:02 PM Subscribe
Poland shaken by case alleging an illicit CIA prison there. 'For years, the idea seemed unthinkable, absurd. A secret U.S. detention center in a remote corner of Poland, where Al Qaeda suspects were brutally interrogated by the CIA? About as likely as "the Loch Ness monster," is how one Pole described it recently. That monster is now rearing its head.'
'Cloistered inside government offices, surrounded by classified documents, Polish prosecutors are building a case that could result in criminal charges against the nation's former spy chief and even, some say, against former senior political leaders. Evidence that a foreign power was allowed to conduct illicit activities on Polish soil has deeply shaken many Poles' faith in the United States and in Poland's sense of itself as a successful democracy born from the ashes of the Cold War.'
'The allegations have already damaged the reputation of the country that Poles thank for helping them to cast off communist oppression. Many now angrily believe the U.S. took advantage of their gratitude, loyalty and eagerness to please by setting up a torture site that it would never have allowed within its own borders.
"It's the kind of thing we expect from Soviet Russia. We remember the Soviet occupation; we remember the German occupation," said attorney Mikolaj Pietrzak, who represents one of the Islamist men allegedly held and questioned in Poland. "The fact that this beacon of liberty which is America would allow this — it's a great disappointment in the United States as the land of the free."'
'Cloistered inside government offices, surrounded by classified documents, Polish prosecutors are building a case that could result in criminal charges against the nation's former spy chief and even, some say, against former senior political leaders. Evidence that a foreign power was allowed to conduct illicit activities on Polish soil has deeply shaken many Poles' faith in the United States and in Poland's sense of itself as a successful democracy born from the ashes of the Cold War.'
'The allegations have already damaged the reputation of the country that Poles thank for helping them to cast off communist oppression. Many now angrily believe the U.S. took advantage of their gratitude, loyalty and eagerness to please by setting up a torture site that it would never have allowed within its own borders.
"It's the kind of thing we expect from Soviet Russia. We remember the Soviet occupation; we remember the German occupation," said attorney Mikolaj Pietrzak, who represents one of the Islamist men allegedly held and questioned in Poland. "The fact that this beacon of liberty which is America would allow this — it's a great disappointment in the United States as the land of the free."'
Let's be clear: this is an American prison in Poland, not a Polish prison. Amirite?
posted by No Robots at 2:10 PM on June 22, 2012 [16 favorites]
posted by No Robots at 2:10 PM on June 22, 2012 [16 favorites]
For years, the idea seemed unthinkable, absurd. A secret U.S. detention center in a remote corner of Poland, where Al Qaeda suspects were brutally interrogated by the CIA? About as likely as "the Loch Ness monster," is how one Pole described it recently.
The U.S. is operating offshore concentration camps (i.e., Gitmo Bay) and outsourcing torture by allowing rendition. So only the details of this story that are a surprise, not the nature of it.
posted by orange swan at 2:11 PM on June 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
The U.S. is operating offshore concentration camps (i.e., Gitmo Bay) and outsourcing torture by allowing rendition. So only the details of this story that are a surprise, not the nature of it.
posted by orange swan at 2:11 PM on June 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
Plus the current Polish government is composed of folks heavily in bed with the neo-cons.
posted by Artw at 2:12 PM on June 22, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by Artw at 2:12 PM on June 22, 2012 [5 favorites]
Now we know why he forgot Poland.
posted by TwelveTwo at 2:12 PM on June 22, 2012 [11 favorites]
posted by TwelveTwo at 2:12 PM on June 22, 2012 [11 favorites]
Poland is not the only country in Europe where the U.S. allegedly operated a secret detention facility with at least tacit permission from somewhere within the host government. Black sites are also thought to have existed in Romania and Lithuania, two other developing democracies, as well as in countries in North Africa and Asia.
Why "allegedly", I wonder? Illegal CIA prisons have been known about for some years, no?
Still, I wonder what happened with Poland's political situation to trigger all this recent activity.
Adam Bodnar of the Helsinki Foundation for Human Rights, who is based in Warsaw, said it is hard to believe Siemiatkowski acted on his own authority in an operation requiring coordination among the intelligence service, the military and the border control agency. But chasing responsibility higher up the chain of command, perhaps all the way to the president's and prime minister's offices, could open a can of worms.
Maybe something is being done about it, perhaps because it was discovered that something worse happened in one of these prisons — maybe some inmates were murdered/disappeared in one of these facilities on Polish soil? Perhaps the higher-ups in Poland just want to contain the scandal and seal off the damage to some underlings, before more is found out and blows back to themselves and their counterparts in the US.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:14 PM on June 22, 2012
Why "allegedly", I wonder? Illegal CIA prisons have been known about for some years, no?
Still, I wonder what happened with Poland's political situation to trigger all this recent activity.
Adam Bodnar of the Helsinki Foundation for Human Rights, who is based in Warsaw, said it is hard to believe Siemiatkowski acted on his own authority in an operation requiring coordination among the intelligence service, the military and the border control agency. But chasing responsibility higher up the chain of command, perhaps all the way to the president's and prime minister's offices, could open a can of worms.
Maybe something is being done about it, perhaps because it was discovered that something worse happened in one of these prisons — maybe some inmates were murdered/disappeared in one of these facilities on Polish soil? Perhaps the higher-ups in Poland just want to contain the scandal and seal off the damage to some underlings, before more is found out and blows back to themselves and their counterparts in the US.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 2:14 PM on June 22, 2012
Plus the current Polish government is composed of folks heavily in bed with the neo-cons.
Holy shit you're not kidding. 364/460 lower house seats and 96/100 upper house seats occupied by the dominant centre-right and right parties.
Good luck to the Polish prosecutors on this one. They'll need it.
posted by Talez at 2:18 PM on June 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
Holy shit you're not kidding. 364/460 lower house seats and 96/100 upper house seats occupied by the dominant centre-right and right parties.
Good luck to the Polish prosecutors on this one. They'll need it.
posted by Talez at 2:18 PM on June 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
This is bad enough. Calling them "concentration camps" hurls the conversation into Godwin-adjacent territory at best.
posted by Etrigan at 2:21 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Etrigan at 2:21 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
It's just not going to register with most folks until there's a Bourne blockbuster with this as a center piece.
posted by sammyo at 2:22 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by sammyo at 2:22 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
It isn't enough that we sully our reputation, but must we keep dragging in others?
[insert unending rage against the Bush Administration]
posted by Atreides at 2:22 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
[insert unending rage against the Bush Administration]
posted by Atreides at 2:22 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
That is the part they never explain in the movies.Once you torture someone for information what do you do with them? No chance you waterboard some guy, decide he doesn't know anything and just turn around and say "Wanna grab a few beers before I drop you home bro?". This shit ain't going to be a funny story you tell during a drunken speech at the guy's wedding. You've just made another enemy of "American Freedom".
posted by Ad hominem at 2:30 PM on June 22, 2012 [10 favorites]
posted by Ad hominem at 2:30 PM on June 22, 2012 [10 favorites]
(Last line of the linked article)
"It is a hot potato, but I don't care," he added. "This case isn't going away."
Call me cynical, but I will take that bet.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:36 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
"It is a hot potato, but I don't care," he added. "This case isn't going away."
Call me cynical, but I will take that bet.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:36 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
... this beacon of liberty which is America ...
AHAAA HA HA HA HA HAHAHA !!! (wiping eyes) Hoo-boy, that's a real knee-slapper there ...
posted by dancestoblue at 2:36 PM on June 22, 2012 [5 favorites]
AHAAA HA HA HA HA HAHAHA !!! (wiping eyes) Hoo-boy, that's a real knee-slapper there ...
posted by dancestoblue at 2:36 PM on June 22, 2012 [5 favorites]
I find this horrifying, but I think part of my horror is due to my utter lack of surprise.
posted by juliplease at 2:39 PM on June 22, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by juliplease at 2:39 PM on June 22, 2012 [5 favorites]
Calling them "concentration camps" hurls the conversation into Godwin-adjacent territory at best.
No, it's calling a spade a spade. The U.S. has been incarcerating people who have not been tried nor even charged with any crime for an indefinite amount of time for over a decade now, and subjecting them to inhumane conditions and torture. That is what a concentration camp is.
posted by orange swan at 2:50 PM on June 22, 2012 [44 favorites]
No, it's calling a spade a spade. The U.S. has been incarcerating people who have not been tried nor even charged with any crime for an indefinite amount of time for over a decade now, and subjecting them to inhumane conditions and torture. That is what a concentration camp is.
posted by orange swan at 2:50 PM on June 22, 2012 [44 favorites]
Polish prosecutors are building a case that could result in criminal charges against the nation's former spy chief and even, some say, against former senior political leaders.
It's stuff like this that sends me into a blind fury.
Other countries can investigate Bush era war crimes. America is forbidden from doing so by Obama.
posted by sotonohito at 2:56 PM on June 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
It's stuff like this that sends me into a blind fury.
Other countries can investigate Bush era war crimes. America is forbidden from doing so by Obama.
posted by sotonohito at 2:56 PM on June 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
Needs better tags! This almost slipped through my "My Mefi" filter.
posted by dunkadunc at 2:56 PM on June 22, 2012
posted by dunkadunc at 2:56 PM on June 22, 2012
No, it's calling a spade a spade..[snip]... That is what a concentration camp is.
No, it's a misuse of the term, and incarcerating people who have not been tried or charge and subjecting them to inhumane conditions and torture are NOT "what a concentration camp is." They are not moving an undesired minority population of people to be "concentrated" into any sort of "camp" based on their ethnicity or religion. The CIA is taking people that they suspect (very likely illegally) to non-US sites for the purpose of interrogation and/or torture (in the name of intelligence gathering).
All indications are that they are illegal prisons. They are not concentration camps.
posted by chimaera at 2:57 PM on June 22, 2012 [26 favorites]
No, it's a misuse of the term, and incarcerating people who have not been tried or charge and subjecting them to inhumane conditions and torture are NOT "what a concentration camp is." They are not moving an undesired minority population of people to be "concentrated" into any sort of "camp" based on their ethnicity or religion. The CIA is taking people that they suspect (very likely illegally) to non-US sites for the purpose of interrogation and/or torture (in the name of intelligence gathering).
All indications are that they are illegal prisons. They are not concentration camps.
posted by chimaera at 2:57 PM on June 22, 2012 [26 favorites]
Just fyi, Austria, Belgium, Cyprus, Denmark, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Poland, Portugal, Romania, Spain, Sweden and the United Kingdom were all named by the European Parliament as collaborating with the CIA's rendition and torture program.
posted by jeffburdges at 2:59 PM on June 22, 2012 [6 favorites]
posted by jeffburdges at 2:59 PM on June 22, 2012 [6 favorites]
I also wish everyone would stop feigning surprise at this sort of thing coming from the "land of the free". It fucking isn't.
posted by dunkadunc at 2:59 PM on June 22, 2012 [6 favorites]
posted by dunkadunc at 2:59 PM on June 22, 2012 [6 favorites]
Eh.
This has been known, rather than rumored or assumed, publicly -- and prominently -- since at least 2007.
Is the twist here that the Polish are actually investigating/indicting the principals?
posted by notyou at 3:00 PM on June 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
This has been known, rather than rumored or assumed, publicly -- and prominently -- since at least 2007.
Is the twist here that the Polish are actually investigating/indicting the principals?
posted by notyou at 3:00 PM on June 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
No, it's a misuse of the term, and incarcerating people who have not been tried or charge and subjecting them to inhumane conditions and torture are NOT "what a concentration camp is."
Let's look at the definition, shall we?
From Wikipedia: The Random House Dictionary defines the term "concentration camp" as: "a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc.", and, the American Heritage Dictionary defines it as: "A camp where civilians, enemy aliens, political prisoners, and sometimes prisoners of war are detained and confined, typically under harsh conditions."
I'd say the shoe fits.
posted by orange swan at 3:01 PM on June 22, 2012 [19 favorites]
Let's look at the definition, shall we?
From Wikipedia: The Random House Dictionary defines the term "concentration camp" as: "a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc.", and, the American Heritage Dictionary defines it as: "A camp where civilians, enemy aliens, political prisoners, and sometimes prisoners of war are detained and confined, typically under harsh conditions."
I'd say the shoe fits.
posted by orange swan at 3:01 PM on June 22, 2012 [19 favorites]
I'd rather the Bush Six did time, but Poland sending a few native war criminals away helps. I'd love it if other European countries would imprison their officials who collaborated with the CIA, like whatever Swedish officials handed over Ahmed Agiza and Muhammad al-Zery.
posted by jeffburdges at 3:03 PM on June 22, 2012
posted by jeffburdges at 3:03 PM on June 22, 2012
And not to excuse what those principals did, could there be other motivations to the Polish investigation, perhaps related to internal politics.
The PO, or Civic Platform has been the ruling party since 2007 according to the 'Pedia.
posted by notyou at 3:06 PM on June 22, 2012
The PO, or Civic Platform has been the ruling party since 2007 according to the 'Pedia.
The Civic Platform combines ordoliberal stances on the economy with liberal conservative stances on social and ethical issues, including opposition to abortion, same-sex marriage, soft drug decriminalisation, euthanasia, fetal stem cell research, removal of crosses and other religious symbols in schools and public places, and partially to wide availability of in vitro fertilisation. On the other hand, there is growing centrist "faction" favoring progressive modernisation of country, social justice, social tolerance (especially civil pacts of solidarity), a social market economy, Flexicurity and environmental sustainability. The party also wants to criminalise gambling and supports religious education in schools. Other socially conservative stances of the party include voting to ban designer drugs and amending the penal code to introduce mandatory chemical castration of pedophiles.Yeah, that looks like a swell bunch of folks.
Core proposals from the party programme in the past included privatisation of the remaining public sectors of Polish economy, direct elections of mayors and regional governors, the first-past-the-post electoral system instead of proportional representation, labor law reform, independence over monetary policy by the National Bank of Poland, a 15% flat tax, and the decentralization of the state. As of the third year of Civic Platform's rule, privatisation is creeping with only a few enterprises privatised every year,[15] while governmental oppression and bureaucracy are rising, hence many accusations of populism and opportunism have been occurring.[16]
posted by notyou at 3:06 PM on June 22, 2012
It's better that they realize sooner rather than later that as a country, we're a real asshole.
If Poland was writing an AskMe about this event, I would tell them to DTMFA and never look back.
posted by Salvor Hardin at 3:09 PM on June 22, 2012
If Poland was writing an AskMe about this event, I would tell them to DTMFA and never look back.
posted by Salvor Hardin at 3:09 PM on June 22, 2012
^ It's just not going to register with most folks until there's a Bourne blockbuster with this as a center piece.
The UK originated concentration camps during the Boer Wars, c.1880.
They apparently did it to their own citizens during WWII. And we did it after 9/11.
Anglophones ≠ Good guys.
DISCLOSURE:I pitched a dark WWII take on The Prisoner earlier this year and the producer was only interested a contemporary story.
posted by vhsiv at 3:10 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
The UK originated concentration camps during the Boer Wars, c.1880.
They apparently did it to their own citizens during WWII. And we did it after 9/11.
Anglophones ≠ Good guys.
DISCLOSURE:I pitched a dark WWII take on The Prisoner earlier this year and the producer was only interested a contemporary story.
posted by vhsiv at 3:10 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
I'd say the shoe fits.
At this point we're arguing semantics, and I won't further engage but to say that I believe the shoe doesn't *quite* fit. These are not camps or compounds (cf. your cited definitions), and, on the very same Wikipedia article, concentration camps are described as commonly detaining "large groups" by which I think a case can be made for Gitmo to be a concentration camp. But there's no indication that the Polish "black prisons" had or were intended to detain large groups.
posted by chimaera at 3:10 PM on June 22, 2012
At this point we're arguing semantics, and I won't further engage but to say that I believe the shoe doesn't *quite* fit. These are not camps or compounds (cf. your cited definitions), and, on the very same Wikipedia article, concentration camps are described as commonly detaining "large groups" by which I think a case can be made for Gitmo to be a concentration camp. But there's no indication that the Polish "black prisons" had or were intended to detain large groups.
posted by chimaera at 3:10 PM on June 22, 2012
... I think a case can be made for Gitmo to be a concentration camp...
Which is exactly the case made by the comment that spawned this semantic derail.
posted by patrick54 at 3:16 PM on June 22, 2012
Which is exactly the case made by the comment that spawned this semantic derail.
posted by patrick54 at 3:16 PM on June 22, 2012
The LA Times posted this at 5 pm Thursday, and no other major news source has picked it up yet as of 3 pm (west coast) on a Friday. Right now, I would say that any further attention in the US is highly unlikely until actual charges are made.
posted by Ardiril at 3:17 PM on June 22, 2012
posted by Ardiril at 3:17 PM on June 22, 2012
They are not moving an undesired minority population of people to be "concentrated" into any sort of "camp" based on their ethnicity or religion.
It's not like the US is fighting its wars in Iceland or Luxembourg. A number of innocent people were sent to Guantanamo Bay for the crime of happening to live in Middle Eastern and Asian countries when the CIA and the US military rolled into town and blew stuff up. How many locals were processed through these illegal prisons? A lot? None? Probably some.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:18 PM on June 22, 2012
It's not like the US is fighting its wars in Iceland or Luxembourg. A number of innocent people were sent to Guantanamo Bay for the crime of happening to live in Middle Eastern and Asian countries when the CIA and the US military rolled into town and blew stuff up. How many locals were processed through these illegal prisons? A lot? None? Probably some.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 3:18 PM on June 22, 2012
I'm aware of how nice it feels to use rhetorically-charged terms when describing something we find horrifying and disgusting, but I still contend that it serves no productive purpose to use imprecise terminology in discussion about such disgusting and horrifying things.
posted by chimaera at 3:27 PM on June 22, 2012 [10 favorites]
posted by chimaera at 3:27 PM on June 22, 2012 [10 favorites]
I understand the objection to the use of the term concentration camp in this context, and more broadly the rhetorical dead-end of describing the USA with language associated with the Nazi regime.
How about torturrarium? Like a terrarium, except filled with unspeakable horror instead of dirt. Maybe that's a little hard to pronounce.
posted by polyhedron at 3:28 PM on June 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
How about torturrarium? Like a terrarium, except filled with unspeakable horror instead of dirt. Maybe that's a little hard to pronounce.
posted by polyhedron at 3:28 PM on June 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
"CIA Black Site" seems like a perfectly good term to use for one of these terrible places.
posted by notyou at 3:33 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by notyou at 3:33 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
Dungeon? Torture facility?
posted by dunkadunc at 3:34 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by dunkadunc at 3:34 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
What has to be done to put an end to the black sites, drone strikes, et cetera? What would do it from a game theory point of view? What would actually change things?
I'm certain we can all sign the online petition, or stand around holding signs at police-approved locations. Vote Obama.
posted by dunkadunc at 3:37 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
I'm certain we can all sign the online petition, or stand around holding signs at police-approved locations. Vote Obama.
posted by dunkadunc at 3:37 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
I still contend that it serves no productive purpose to use imprecise terminology in discussion about such disgusting and horrifying things.
I feel the same way about imprecise terms in charged discussions, and I contend that I have not been imprecise.
posted by orange swan at 3:38 PM on June 22, 2012 [4 favorites]
I feel the same way about imprecise terms in charged discussions, and I contend that I have not been imprecise.
posted by orange swan at 3:38 PM on June 22, 2012 [4 favorites]
How about spy spa?
posted by No Robots at 3:38 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by No Robots at 3:38 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
gwb popped my generation's cherry
posted by nervousfritz at 3:39 PM on June 22, 2012
posted by nervousfritz at 3:39 PM on June 22, 2012
I think you meant vacation-style treatment.
posted by dunkadunc at 3:40 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by dunkadunc at 3:40 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
I contend that I have not been imprecise.
So we must agree to disagree. I feel any of the following to be superior to the term "concentration camp" for being more precise:
- CIA Black Prison
- CIA Illegal Prison
- CIA Interrogation and Torture Site.
posted by chimaera at 3:45 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
So we must agree to disagree. I feel any of the following to be superior to the term "concentration camp" for being more precise:
- CIA Black Prison
- CIA Illegal Prison
- CIA Interrogation and Torture Site.
posted by chimaera at 3:45 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
Why "allegedly", I wonder? Illegal CIA prisons have been known about for some years, no?
I know I have been reading about illicit prisons/torture facilities in eastern Europe for some years now; I suppose it is "allegedly" because it appears to be something that everyone knows about but no one quite comes out and provides clear documentation about.
That is the part they never explain in the movies.Once you torture someone for information what do you do with them? No chance you waterboard some guy, decide he doesn't know anything and just turn around and say "Wanna grab a few beers before I drop you home bro?". This shit ain't going to be a funny story you tell during a drunken speech at the guy's wedding. You've just made another enemy of "American Freedom".
In other situations where torture was used, a lot of those people ended up thrown out of helicopters into the ocean or buried in mass graves.
posted by Forktine at 3:58 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
I know I have been reading about illicit prisons/torture facilities in eastern Europe for some years now; I suppose it is "allegedly" because it appears to be something that everyone knows about but no one quite comes out and provides clear documentation about.
That is the part they never explain in the movies.Once you torture someone for information what do you do with them? No chance you waterboard some guy, decide he doesn't know anything and just turn around and say "Wanna grab a few beers before I drop you home bro?". This shit ain't going to be a funny story you tell during a drunken speech at the guy's wedding. You've just made another enemy of "American Freedom".
In other situations where torture was used, a lot of those people ended up thrown out of helicopters into the ocean or buried in mass graves.
posted by Forktine at 3:58 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
So this is "New Europe"
posted by KokuRyu at 4:02 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by KokuRyu at 4:02 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
a guarded compound for the detention or imprisonment of aliens, members of ethnic minorities, political opponents, etc
Sounds like all the prisons I've drove by in Alabama weren't prisons at all. Turns out hey were concentration camps. Who woulda known?
My point is two fold: The prison situation in the U.S. is messed up, probably moreso in states like Alabama AND that based upon the above-cited definition of 'concentration camp' alot of things that most people don't really consider concentration camps would qualify.
posted by RolandOfEld at 4:04 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
Sounds like all the prisons I've drove by in Alabama weren't prisons at all. Turns out hey were concentration camps. Who woulda known?
My point is two fold: The prison situation in the U.S. is messed up, probably moreso in states like Alabama AND that based upon the above-cited definition of 'concentration camp' alot of things that most people don't really consider concentration camps would qualify.
posted by RolandOfEld at 4:04 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
I think the term we're all groping for here is "gulag", but being pedantic would otherwise derail a great conversation about WTF.
posted by KokuRyu at 4:12 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by KokuRyu at 4:12 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
Poland always comes across as "the great innocent" in light of WWII history, but examination of Poland's history before WWII tells quite a different story.
posted by telstar at 4:13 PM on June 22, 2012
posted by telstar at 4:13 PM on June 22, 2012
What the fuck is with all this nitpicking over the term "concentration camp?" It's a place where suspected political dissidents are taken for torture after they are kidnapped by the CIA. It's sick shit either way. Maybe not a concentration camp by a strictly constructed definition, but that's cold comfort to the person who has been kidnapped and locked away, denied any chance to clear their name (or even have their family know they are in US custody!)
What is wrong with you people?
posted by wierdo at 4:15 PM on June 22, 2012 [5 favorites]
What is wrong with you people?
posted by wierdo at 4:15 PM on June 22, 2012 [5 favorites]
Mod note: The vocabulary argument seems to be getting in the way of the actual conversation here - maybe wrap that up? Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 4:16 PM on June 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 4:16 PM on June 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
Gulags were basically forced labor camps. That tended to not feed slow workers and starve them to death. This is a little different.
As eskimos have fifty words for snow, Americans have fifty terms for prisons.
posted by mrhappy at 4:17 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
As eskimos have fifty words for snow, Americans have fifty terms for prisons.
posted by mrhappy at 4:17 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
Now that I think about it, you know what I really find concerning? That after posting that I thought to myself that maybe I should have waited to post it until I get back into the US. I wouldn't be terribly surprised if ICE gives me shit on the way back into the US thanks to voicing an opinion that could be considered sympathetic to terrorists by some lunkhead. The mere existence of such things and their documented use with US Citizens chills free speech.
We are not Franco's Spain or Trujillo's Dominican Republic or Pinochet's Chile, but we sure seem to be trying really hard to get there.
posted by wierdo at 4:19 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
We are not Franco's Spain or Trujillo's Dominican Republic or Pinochet's Chile, but we sure seem to be trying really hard to get there.
posted by wierdo at 4:19 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
Poland always comes across as "the great innocent" in light of WWII history, but examination of Poland's history before WWII tells quite a different story.
Nobody should believe for a second that a fair percentage of average Poles weren't completely down with the Nazi program. "Victims," my ass.
posted by Chrischris at 4:46 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
Nobody should believe for a second that a fair percentage of average Poles weren't completely down with the Nazi program. "Victims," my ass.
posted by Chrischris at 4:46 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
DISCLOSURE:I pitched a dark WWII take on The Prisoner earlier this year and the producer was only interested a contemporary story.
I would watch . . . either of these. As long as it didn't take place in a weird shared dreamspace.
As eskimos have fifty words for snow, Americans have fifty terms for prisons.
So only a handful, then?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:52 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
I would watch . . . either of these. As long as it didn't take place in a weird shared dreamspace.
As eskimos have fifty words for snow, Americans have fifty terms for prisons.
So only a handful, then?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:52 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
Polish politicians were surprisingly upset with Obama for talking about "Polish death camps":
posted by jamjam at 5:03 PM on June 22, 2012
[ May 31]WARSAW, Poland — Poland's leaders said Wednesday they weren't satisfied with a White House explanation that President Barack Obama misspoke when he referred to "Polish death camps" during a ceremony honoring a World War II hero.The prominence the CIA prison story is assuming right now seems clearly related to Obama's blunder, but I can't tell how.
The phrasing is considered hugely offensive in Poland, where Nazi Germany killed Poles, Jews and others in death camps it built during World War II.
President Bronislaw Komorowski said he has written to Obama and hopes the letter will lead to a "joint correcting of the unfortunate mistake" that could prevent the use of such phrases in the future. ...
posted by jamjam at 5:03 PM on June 22, 2012
I'm far more afraid of my own government than of terrorists. Perhaps the CIA could interrogate itself there:
Agent Bob (angry voice): "WHY are we building illegal prisons and torturing people on little-to-no evidence?? Don't we believe in justice?"
Agent Bob (scared voice): "Whaaa I... I don't know!!"
Agent Bob (angry voice): "NOT the answer I wanted to hear..."
posted by LordSludge at 5:06 PM on June 22, 2012
Agent Bob (angry voice): "WHY are we building illegal prisons and torturing people on little-to-no evidence?? Don't we believe in justice?"
Agent Bob (scared voice): "Whaaa I... I don't know!!"
Agent Bob (angry voice): "NOT the answer I wanted to hear..."
posted by LordSludge at 5:06 PM on June 22, 2012
This ABC News article states things a bit more factually than the LA Times story, which doesn't really state much at all.
posted by Ardiril at 5:15 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Ardiril at 5:15 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
This ABC News article states things a bit more factually than the LA Times story
Worth watching.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:27 PM on June 22, 2012
Worth watching.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 5:27 PM on June 22, 2012
Yeah...my heart really bleeds for the Taliban, Jihadists or douchebags of any ilk. Just the latest reminder of the behavior of the "people" that are being taken to these camps--i would personally (and happily) assist in the "disappering" of the animals that brutalized this woman. http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/22/us/aesha-update-surgery-begins/index.html
No excuses, No "cultural heritage," no being an enabler for a spectacularly violent behavior. The CIA and I aren't likely to exchange Xmas cards anytime soon, but anyone who is removing these barbarians...zealots...whatever... from the face of the earth is kind of OK in my book.
posted by ironbob at 5:35 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
No excuses, No "cultural heritage," no being an enabler for a spectacularly violent behavior. The CIA and I aren't likely to exchange Xmas cards anytime soon, but anyone who is removing these barbarians...zealots...whatever... from the face of the earth is kind of OK in my book.
posted by ironbob at 5:35 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
My heart really does fucking bleed for people who are being dealt with outside the law.
Arrest and book them, and let them have their day in court. Torture is not OK. Rendering them to countries where they will be tortured is not OK.
Get it?
posted by dunkadunc at 5:43 PM on June 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
Arrest and book them, and let them have their day in court. Torture is not OK. Rendering them to countries where they will be tortured is not OK.
Get it?
posted by dunkadunc at 5:43 PM on June 22, 2012 [3 favorites]
I wish your name was ironicbob so I felt like I was in on the joke instead of despairing at the plight of humanity...
posted by polyhedron at 5:46 PM on June 22, 2012 [5 favorites]
posted by polyhedron at 5:46 PM on June 22, 2012 [5 favorites]
A little detail. The article coyly describes waterboarding as "a simulated drowning technique". Apart from LA Time's reluctance to use the word torture, this is factually incorrect. Waterboarding IS deliberately drowning someone -- it doesn't usually kill the victim because the torturer stops just short of death. The torturer does not always judge the correct moment to stop. Sometimes the victims actually drown. Waterboarding is no more simulated drowning than my whacking you with a rubber hose is a simulated beating.
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 5:56 PM on June 22, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by i_am_joe's_spleen at 5:56 PM on June 22, 2012 [4 favorites]
No excuses, No "cultural heritage," no being an enabler for a spectacularly violent behavior.
these prisons were not built to help women. you've been tricked.
posted by facetious at 6:10 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
these prisons were not built to help women. you've been tricked.
posted by facetious at 6:10 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
"Apart from LA Time's reluctance to use the word torture"
No one will successfully sue LA Times for libel over that article, fershur.
posted by Ardiril at 6:19 PM on June 22, 2012
No one will successfully sue LA Times for libel over that article, fershur.
posted by Ardiril at 6:19 PM on June 22, 2012
The fact that this beacon of liberty which is America would allow this — it's a great disappointment in the United States as the land of the free.
Amen.
How refreshing to see someone tell the U.S. 'we don't want your fucking torture chambers here. GTFO.'
posted by Golden Eternity at 6:24 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
Amen.
How refreshing to see someone tell the U.S. 'we don't want your fucking torture chambers here. GTFO.'
posted by Golden Eternity at 6:24 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
Fortunately, the US's sense of shame was outsourced too. Maybe we can get it back after it takes root in Poland.
posted by klarck at 6:31 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by klarck at 6:31 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
No one told the US to gtfo. The US closed shop after the US news media broke the story about the prisons. Everything happening now is almost 10 years after the fact.
posted by Ardiril at 6:32 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Ardiril at 6:32 PM on June 22, 2012 [2 favorites]
It isn't enough that we sully our reputation, but must we keep dragging in others?
... polish - maintain - blemish - tarnish - taint - sully - stain - blacken - befoul - ruin - destroy - demolish - obliterate ...
I'm not sure where on this spectrum what happened to America's reputation during Bush falls, but I suspect it's to the right of "sully."
posted by chortly at 7:21 PM on June 22, 2012
... polish - maintain - blemish - tarnish - taint - sully - stain - blacken - befoul - ruin - destroy - demolish - obliterate ...
I'm not sure where on this spectrum what happened to America's reputation during Bush falls, but I suspect it's to the right of "sully."
posted by chortly at 7:21 PM on June 22, 2012
No excuses, No "cultural heritage," no being an enabler for a spectacularly violent behavior.
Physician, heal thyself.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:48 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
Physician, heal thyself.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:48 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
Sorry, I meant to link to this. (But that one's pretty damning, too.)
posted by Sys Rq at 8:48 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Sys Rq at 8:48 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
Nobody should believe for a second that a fair percentage of average Poles weren't completely down with the Nazi program. "Victims," my ass.
Everyone's an armchair Holocaust historian. However, Canada and the US certainly had no qualms about turning away boatloads of Jewish refugees prior to 1941.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:33 PM on June 22, 2012 [5 favorites]
Everyone's an armchair Holocaust historian. However, Canada and the US certainly had no qualms about turning away boatloads of Jewish refugees prior to 1941.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:33 PM on June 22, 2012 [5 favorites]
Conversation about what? As the article indicates, the very operation of this prison is speculation, let alone who ran it.Since when is that a reason not to discuss things? Life on mars is highly speculative, yet people discuss the possibility all the time.
However, Canada and the US certainly had no qualms about turning away boatloads of Jewish refugees prior to 1941.Well, the final solution officially get started until 1942.
The irony of these "you can't compare anyone to Hitler unless they've killed millions of people" is that you could not have even compared Hitler to Hitler until.
I can see the conversation now:
1939 guy 1: This Hitler guy seems like he has the potential to be the next future Hitler from 3 years from now!Of course Goodwin's law was for stuff like vi vs. Emacs not people who actually start wars, torture people, run secret prisons and so on. (and said nothing about who 'won' the argument)
1939 guy 2: OMG Godwin law! Once you compare anyone to future Hitler, you lose the argument!!!"
posted by delmoi at 9:49 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
"Since when is that a reason not to discuss things?"
Reread for context and you will find that I was defending the ongoing debate about concentration camps. Further, given the anemic content of the LA Times link, virtually any discussion would be on-topic.
posted by Ardiril at 9:55 PM on June 22, 2012
Reread for context and you will find that I was defending the ongoing debate about concentration camps. Further, given the anemic content of the LA Times link, virtually any discussion would be on-topic.
posted by Ardiril at 9:55 PM on June 22, 2012
Of course Goodwin's law was for stuff like vi vs. Emacs not people who actually start wars, torture people, run secret prisons and so on. (and said nothing about who 'won' the argument)
The Godwin Law was withdrawn in 2003 apparently. (NSFW)
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:01 PM on June 22, 2012
The Godwin Law was withdrawn in 2003 apparently. (NSFW)
posted by Golden Eternity at 10:01 PM on June 22, 2012
What has to be done to put an end to the black sites, drone strikes, et cetera? What would do it from a game theory point of view? What would actually change things?
Convince the voting public that they, too, should be more worried about illegal secret prisons than they are of terrorism. That's kind of how democratic government works.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 10:54 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
Convince the voting public that they, too, should be more worried about illegal secret prisons than they are of terrorism. That's kind of how democratic government works.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 10:54 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
I have very little faith in democratic government overturning current injustices, because we don't have a democratic government, or a free media.
posted by dunkadunc at 11:18 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by dunkadunc at 11:18 PM on June 22, 2012 [1 favorite]
I was interested to find a waterboarding table alongside devices for tearing off nails and other horrific forms of torture in a preserved Khmer Rouge "prison" in Phnom Penh recently. I wonder how many victims of these US facilities were flown through my supposedly neutral country with the full consent of our scumbag governments in complete contravention of our constitution not to mind popular opinion.
posted by nfg at 1:21 AM on June 23, 2012
posted by nfg at 1:21 AM on June 23, 2012
FTA: Many now angrily believe the U.S. took advantage of their gratitude, loyalty and eagerness to please by setting up a torture site that it would never have allowed within its own borders.
Regardless of the leanings of their elected officials, the average Pole is understandably upset.
posted by Renoroc at 3:24 AM on June 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
Regardless of the leanings of their elected officials, the average Pole is understandably upset.
posted by Renoroc at 3:24 AM on June 23, 2012 [1 favorite]
outrage filter.
I was interested to find a waterboarding table alongside devices for tearing off nails and other horrific forms of torture in a preserved Khmer Rouge "prison" in Phnom Penh recently.
can you walk me through a comparison of tuol sleng and this Poland site.
posted by clavdivs at 7:11 AM on June 23, 2012
I was interested to find a waterboarding table alongside devices for tearing off nails and other horrific forms of torture in a preserved Khmer Rouge "prison" in Phnom Penh recently.
can you walk me through a comparison of tuol sleng and this Poland site.
posted by clavdivs at 7:11 AM on June 23, 2012
dunkadunc, I think that's overstating the case. The problem isn't that we don't have those things, it's that in the first case we inexplicably allow bribery of lawmakers, just under a different name. In the second, the media is indeed free, but for some reason so-called journalists have largely been trained to report the controversy rather than the facts, even those working for media outlets who are not notionally part of the bribery-contract circle jerk.
What lawmakers and others say is completely vapid and useless bullshit, but that's what passes for journalism these days. Rarely do you read reports about what actually happened, only about what someone was willing to say about what happened. I believe the correct name for that is PR.
As disturbing as that is, it isn't because our media isn't free to report what it wants how it wants, it's because our media chooses to be that way, largely due to market forces. Until we move past the idea that the market is always the best way to allocate resources, we will have these sorts of failures. Not that many people will acknowledge that we have a free market in lawmaking, even if they believe it with regard to newsgathering.
posted by wierdo at 8:06 AM on June 23, 2012
What lawmakers and others say is completely vapid and useless bullshit, but that's what passes for journalism these days. Rarely do you read reports about what actually happened, only about what someone was willing to say about what happened. I believe the correct name for that is PR.
As disturbing as that is, it isn't because our media isn't free to report what it wants how it wants, it's because our media chooses to be that way, largely due to market forces. Until we move past the idea that the market is always the best way to allocate resources, we will have these sorts of failures. Not that many people will acknowledge that we have a free market in lawmaking, even if they believe it with regard to newsgathering.
posted by wierdo at 8:06 AM on June 23, 2012
To jest moje wstrząśnięty twarzy.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:28 AM on June 23, 2012 [3 favorites]
posted by kirkaracha at 9:28 AM on June 23, 2012 [3 favorites]
I could dream about the top 6 or 7 people in the previous administration (and their attendant lawyers, lackeys, and henchmen) being hauled off to serve prison time in, say, Germany or France, or maybe, in my wilder dream versions, even Leavenworth. I just can't imagine how that might be accomplished. We would need a leadership with moral courage, and a government with enough interest in justice to turn the awesome power of the US to the task. Our history in this respect pretty much endangers only scapegoats and whistle-blowers.
I can easily understand why our present administration did not want to open this whole can of worms. Our moral high ground is the pretext on which we base our foreign policy, and lately that facade has been wearing pretty thin. Legitimizing inquiry into our government's systemic criminality would be sort of like playing Russian Roulette with shotgun.
posted by mule98J at 10:36 AM on June 23, 2012
I can easily understand why our present administration did not want to open this whole can of worms. Our moral high ground is the pretext on which we base our foreign policy, and lately that facade has been wearing pretty thin. Legitimizing inquiry into our government's systemic criminality would be sort of like playing Russian Roulette with shotgun.
posted by mule98J at 10:36 AM on June 23, 2012
There's a much better article here, for those who want some more details.
About as likely as "the Loch Ness monster,"
The LA Times is fudging the timeline a bit here. My memory is that Poles almost universally accepted that CIA torture took place at Stare Kiejkuty a good five years ago. Poles love conspiracy theories and they have few illusions about the munificence of the USA or their own politicians, so it's exactly the sort of story they're predisposed to believe.
There was some cynicism very early on, since the first major politician to back the torture claims was the late Andrzej Lepper, a controversial rabble-rouser. Given scandals around him relating to sexual harrassment, antisemitism and corruption, many were predisposed to regard anything he championed as tainted, but his 'CIA torture camp in Poland' claim turned out to be entirely true. Real life is messier than the black and white we might wish for.
while governmental oppression and bureaucracy are rising
Err... you do realise that this claim is in contrast to the far more right-wing PiS party who were in power before? Using Wikipedia to get a disinterested view of a non-Anglophone political party is asking for disinformation.
Yeah, that looks like a swell bunch of folks.
I'm honestly confused; are you implying that because PO are socially conservative (like the majority of Poles), their investigations into extraordinary rendition during the time of a Polish centre-left administration are suspicious? I certainly prefer social policies based on racial & sexual equality, as well as legal access to abortion, but then so did the USSR and they were significantly keener on torture than recent US governments. Again, the world doesn't divide neatly into black hats and white hats.
Poland always comes across as "the great innocent" in light of WWII history, but examination of Poland's history before WWII tells quite a different story.
By pre-WWII Polish history, I'm assuming you're referring to the second republic? I'm unclear as to the relevance of its history to this thread on current investigations into CIA extraordinary rendition in 2002/3. I mean, they're both about Poland, but I wouldn't go into the thread on Japanese nuclear power to throw in a comment about the Rape of Nanking.
Nobody should believe for a second that a fair percentage of average Poles weren't completely down with the Nazi program. "Victims," my ass.
Around the time of the vile massacre at Jedwabne, the Moore's Ford Bridge lynching took place in Georgia. This was not an isolated event. I don't believe that the post-war evil of some racist American hicks should mean that the sacrifice of the 417,000 American soldiers who died in WWII should be ignored or that America should be blamed for the slave trade genocide, even though those Georgian lynchers and their families hadn't been repeatedly invaded, raped, massacred and generally brutalised. Likewise, I'm not sure why the post-war evil of some racist Polish hicks should lead us to reassign blame for the Holocaust away from the clearly identified German perpetrators to Poland.
Poland has a long and shameful history of antisemitism, which is still not treated with the seriousness it deserves in Poland. However, more gentile Poles were named as 'Righteous among the Nations' than any other nation, despite the Germans imposing the most severe punishment in Europe for harbouring a Jew in Poland: immediate execution of the entire family of the person responsible for the concealment. Antisemitism is terrible in all its forms, but the sort of sporadic Polish mob violence that took place before and after WWII should not be conflated with the German project which turned 80% of European Jewry into ash, any more than American antisemitism should be regarded as of the same degree as Polish.
Oh, and the view of Poles as "victims" is most likely due to having the highest per capita death rate of any country in WWII, the deadliest military conflict in recorded history. 5.6 million Poles died in WWII, 3 million of whom were Jewish holocaust victims. Plus the wiping of Poland off the map on at least three occasions in the past few hundred years. Plus the post-war betrayal by the Western powers. Plus Katyn. For my tastes they revel in their victimhood a bit, but it's real and worthy of something more than glib dismissal.
Polish politicians were surprisingly upset with Obama for talking about "Polish death camps"
There is nothing terribly surprising about Polish politicians implementing a long-standing Polish foreign policy regarding descriptions of the holocaust, one supported by Israel.
posted by Busy Old Fool at 12:26 PM on June 23, 2012 [7 favorites]
About as likely as "the Loch Ness monster,"
The LA Times is fudging the timeline a bit here. My memory is that Poles almost universally accepted that CIA torture took place at Stare Kiejkuty a good five years ago. Poles love conspiracy theories and they have few illusions about the munificence of the USA or their own politicians, so it's exactly the sort of story they're predisposed to believe.
There was some cynicism very early on, since the first major politician to back the torture claims was the late Andrzej Lepper, a controversial rabble-rouser. Given scandals around him relating to sexual harrassment, antisemitism and corruption, many were predisposed to regard anything he championed as tainted, but his 'CIA torture camp in Poland' claim turned out to be entirely true. Real life is messier than the black and white we might wish for.
while governmental oppression and bureaucracy are rising
Err... you do realise that this claim is in contrast to the far more right-wing PiS party who were in power before? Using Wikipedia to get a disinterested view of a non-Anglophone political party is asking for disinformation.
Yeah, that looks like a swell bunch of folks.
I'm honestly confused; are you implying that because PO are socially conservative (like the majority of Poles), their investigations into extraordinary rendition during the time of a Polish centre-left administration are suspicious? I certainly prefer social policies based on racial & sexual equality, as well as legal access to abortion, but then so did the USSR and they were significantly keener on torture than recent US governments. Again, the world doesn't divide neatly into black hats and white hats.
Poland always comes across as "the great innocent" in light of WWII history, but examination of Poland's history before WWII tells quite a different story.
By pre-WWII Polish history, I'm assuming you're referring to the second republic? I'm unclear as to the relevance of its history to this thread on current investigations into CIA extraordinary rendition in 2002/3. I mean, they're both about Poland, but I wouldn't go into the thread on Japanese nuclear power to throw in a comment about the Rape of Nanking.
Nobody should believe for a second that a fair percentage of average Poles weren't completely down with the Nazi program. "Victims," my ass.
Around the time of the vile massacre at Jedwabne, the Moore's Ford Bridge lynching took place in Georgia. This was not an isolated event. I don't believe that the post-war evil of some racist American hicks should mean that the sacrifice of the 417,000 American soldiers who died in WWII should be ignored or that America should be blamed for the slave trade genocide, even though those Georgian lynchers and their families hadn't been repeatedly invaded, raped, massacred and generally brutalised. Likewise, I'm not sure why the post-war evil of some racist Polish hicks should lead us to reassign blame for the Holocaust away from the clearly identified German perpetrators to Poland.
Poland has a long and shameful history of antisemitism, which is still not treated with the seriousness it deserves in Poland. However, more gentile Poles were named as 'Righteous among the Nations' than any other nation, despite the Germans imposing the most severe punishment in Europe for harbouring a Jew in Poland: immediate execution of the entire family of the person responsible for the concealment. Antisemitism is terrible in all its forms, but the sort of sporadic Polish mob violence that took place before and after WWII should not be conflated with the German project which turned 80% of European Jewry into ash, any more than American antisemitism should be regarded as of the same degree as Polish.
Oh, and the view of Poles as "victims" is most likely due to having the highest per capita death rate of any country in WWII, the deadliest military conflict in recorded history. 5.6 million Poles died in WWII, 3 million of whom were Jewish holocaust victims. Plus the wiping of Poland off the map on at least three occasions in the past few hundred years. Plus the post-war betrayal by the Western powers. Plus Katyn. For my tastes they revel in their victimhood a bit, but it's real and worthy of something more than glib dismissal.
Polish politicians were surprisingly upset with Obama for talking about "Polish death camps"
There is nothing terribly surprising about Polish politicians implementing a long-standing Polish foreign policy regarding descriptions of the holocaust, one supported by Israel.
posted by Busy Old Fool at 12:26 PM on June 23, 2012 [7 favorites]
Many now angrily believe the U.S. took advantage of their gratitude, loyalty and eagerness to please
And they would be right. Just as many Americans were similarly taken advantage of (much as they were in the 50s and 60s). As in human psychology, The Shadow does its thing best when ignored.
posted by Twang at 12:35 PM on June 23, 2012
And they would be right. Just as many Americans were similarly taken advantage of (much as they were in the 50s and 60s). As in human psychology, The Shadow does its thing best when ignored.
posted by Twang at 12:35 PM on June 23, 2012
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posted by benito.strauss at 2:06 PM on June 22, 2012 [5 favorites]