Dred Reckoning
August 27, 2012 10:02 AM Subscribe
I’m about to tell you a story about videogames, kitchens, and internet forums that has a happy ending. Stop laughing, I’m serious. - A woman gamer declares Gaslamp Games's Dungeons of Dredmor forums awesome.
Weird, I was just searching for posts on DoD this morning after spending most of my Sunday on it. I'm glad to hear that it's also contributing to creating awesome non-sexist gaming discussion spaces, something that the internet could always use more of.
posted by kagredon at 10:09 AM on August 27, 2012
posted by kagredon at 10:09 AM on August 27, 2012
I saw this the other day and damn, handshakes all around.
posted by griphus at 10:10 AM on August 27, 2012
posted by griphus at 10:10 AM on August 27, 2012
The phrase "Kitchen Joker" brings up all the wrong--and awesome--images in my head. "Batman will never expect this exploding souffle!"
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:12 AM on August 27, 2012 [17 favorites]
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:12 AM on August 27, 2012 [17 favorites]
Kitchen Joker? Some men just want to watch the cupcakes burn?
posted by Apoch at 10:18 AM on August 27, 2012 [7 favorites]
posted by Apoch at 10:18 AM on August 27, 2012 [7 favorites]
Kitchen Joker and Lex Luthor ought to team up for an Iron Chef-themed issue of World's Finest.
posted by griphus at 10:18 AM on August 27, 2012
posted by griphus at 10:18 AM on August 27, 2012
On a serious note, good on the devs and forum moderators and Gaslamp Games, hopefully soon that'll be the norm and not the exception.
posted by Apoch at 10:19 AM on August 27, 2012
posted by Apoch at 10:19 AM on August 27, 2012
"Ladies, please restrain yourselves from sending marriage proposals."
Okay, but it's really really hard because this is so fucking rare and so fucking awesome.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:20 AM on August 27, 2012 [5 favorites]
Okay, but it's really really hard because this is so fucking rare and so fucking awesome.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:20 AM on August 27, 2012 [5 favorites]
While my desire to ever play another roguelike approaches zero (life is generally too short for that sort of aggravation) I do have to commend the designer and the forums for policing the community in a way that should leave no doubt in people's mind that female gamers (or any other group of people that are normally underrepresented in a community) are welcome and should not be made to feel guilty for being game enthusiasts or be forced to play nice just because a "joke" went awry. It's a shame that so many game enthusiasts (or any other number of niche interests) tend to be so blatantly exclusionary but I think forums and moderators like those go a long way towards setting a standard for more inclusive behavior.
posted by vuron at 10:26 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by vuron at 10:26 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
That was an awesome read. I've never been to the forums (avoid forums in general these days) but the fact that the smackdown came from one of the devs probably helped somewhat.
The few times I've been in a gaming environment where a female who doesn't hide her gender enters the fray and receives cat calls, casual misogyny, etc, and a fellow male tries to tell people to cut that shit out they're accused of "white knighting". Sigh. The gaming community has a long way to go. Hope I'll live to see positive changes.
posted by pyrex at 10:27 AM on August 27, 2012
The few times I've been in a gaming environment where a female who doesn't hide her gender enters the fray and receives cat calls, casual misogyny, etc, and a fellow male tries to tell people to cut that shit out they're accused of "white knighting". Sigh. The gaming community has a long way to go. Hope I'll live to see positive changes.
posted by pyrex at 10:27 AM on August 27, 2012
Excuse me; addendum: "... and a fellow male who isn't a mod with banhammer powers tries to tell people to cut that shit out ..."
posted by pyrex at 10:29 AM on August 27, 2012
posted by pyrex at 10:29 AM on August 27, 2012
...and a fellow male tries to tell people to cut that shit out they're accused of "white knighting".
That happens here, too, sadly.
posted by griphus at 10:31 AM on August 27, 2012
That happens here, too, sadly.
posted by griphus at 10:31 AM on August 27, 2012
I applaud this on the general level, but I do have one question about the specifics of the situation that I hope some of the female feminists on metafilter can help with. When Hybelkanin posted his apology - which the blogger claimed was "mansplaining" - I was unable to tell the difference between that and a genuine apology. What signs were visible to indicate that this was not a genuine apology? And what would a genuine apology have looked like?
I'm not saying this to provoke an enraged feminist reaction, by the way - I'm genuinely curious. If I say something insensitive and legitimately regret having said it afterwards, what is the best way to apologize without it being perceived as "mansplaining?"
posted by wolfdreams01 at 10:33 AM on August 27, 2012
I'm not saying this to provoke an enraged feminist reaction, by the way - I'm genuinely curious. If I say something insensitive and legitimately regret having said it afterwards, what is the best way to apologize without it being perceived as "mansplaining?"
posted by wolfdreams01 at 10:33 AM on August 27, 2012
Man, it would be wonderful to never hear the phrase "white knight" again.
posted by brundlefly at 10:35 AM on August 27, 2012 [10 favorites]
posted by brundlefly at 10:35 AM on August 27, 2012 [10 favorites]
What signs were visible to indicate that this was not a genuine apology? And what would a genuine apology have looked like?
"He says all this stuff about being sorry, but I think he says a lot more about the situation being overblown because his intentions were harmless. He cares more about looking good than he does about how you feel."
It's basically a more roundabout form of the "I'm sorry you got offended" non-apology.
posted by griphus at 10:36 AM on August 27, 2012 [10 favorites]
"He says all this stuff about being sorry, but I think he says a lot more about the situation being overblown because his intentions were harmless. He cares more about looking good than he does about how you feel."
It's basically a more roundabout form of the "I'm sorry you got offended" non-apology.
posted by griphus at 10:36 AM on August 27, 2012 [10 favorites]
wolfsdream01: the thing that rubbed me (and maybe the blogger) the wrong way with the post is that it reads much more as a "Sorry you were offended" non-apology than an actual apology. Saying things like "the last thing I want is to carry the stamp of a female hating demon" and "While I personally feel this was taken a bit too far considering my own intents with my comments" doesn't really convey sincerity.
The way to apologize is just to say "I'm sorry, what I said was rude and stupid and I should've thought before I posted." Simple, direct, acknowledging your own fault without self-flagellation.
posted by kagredon at 10:37 AM on August 27, 2012 [9 favorites]
The way to apologize is just to say "I'm sorry, what I said was rude and stupid and I should've thought before I posted." Simple, direct, acknowledging your own fault without self-flagellation.
posted by kagredon at 10:37 AM on August 27, 2012 [9 favorites]
I'm not saying this to provoke an enraged feminist reaction, by the way - I'm genuinely curious. If I say something insensitive and legitimately regret having said it afterwards, what is the best way to apologize without it being perceived as "mansplaining?"
"While I personally feel this was taken a bit too far"
"There must be something I'm missing about my bad no doubt but in my own opinion at least lighthearted kitchen joke"
A genuine apology wold have omitted the stuff about how he still doesn't really see what he did wrong and thinks this was taken too far.
If I say something insensitive and legitimately regret having said it afterwards, what is the best way to apologize without it being perceived as "mansplaining?"
"You're right, that was insensitive of me and I'm sorry."
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 10:41 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
"While I personally feel this was taken a bit too far"
"There must be something I'm missing about my bad no doubt but in my own opinion at least lighthearted kitchen joke"
A genuine apology wold have omitted the stuff about how he still doesn't really see what he did wrong and thinks this was taken too far.
If I say something insensitive and legitimately regret having said it afterwards, what is the best way to apologize without it being perceived as "mansplaining?"
"You're right, that was insensitive of me and I'm sorry."
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 10:41 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
I don't think that his apology was actually an instance of 'mansplaining'. But it was an example of 'the martyred apologist'. If you notice, right off the bat he says "there must be something I'm missing", and he never changes from that. He basically says that he will apologize, as that seems to be what's necessary to continue to participate in that community. But he maintains that he did nothing wrong.
(I think 'mansplaining' is getting (overly) generalized to refer to any disagreement with a basis in gender. Probably because it's a really witty phrase.)
posted by benito.strauss at 10:41 AM on August 27, 2012 [8 favorites]
(I think 'mansplaining' is getting (overly) generalized to refer to any disagreement with a basis in gender. Probably because it's a really witty phrase.)
posted by benito.strauss at 10:41 AM on August 27, 2012 [8 favorites]
Yeah, don't let's ruin 'mansplaining'. It is a terrific word!
posted by Mister_A at 10:43 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by Mister_A at 10:43 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
Can someone explain something to me, that I can't figure out from the article?
The blogger said that the non-apology came to her via a PM, and then she logged in to discover that the David Baumgart replied to the offender before she had a chance to.
From this, am I correctly understanding that the board admins over at Gaslight read private messages?
Or am I missing an important detail?
posted by DWRoelands at 10:46 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
The blogger said that the non-apology came to her via a PM, and then she logged in to discover that the David Baumgart replied to the offender before she had a chance to.
From this, am I correctly understanding that the board admins over at Gaslight read private messages?
Or am I missing an important detail?
posted by DWRoelands at 10:46 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
It wasn't mansplaining because it didn't descend to "Let me explain to you why you were mistaken to have your hysterical I mean delicate girl feelings hurt", with or without the bonus "and tell you how my feelings would not have been hurt in the same instance because my standard is clearly the correct standard" round. It was however a complete non-apology, with a measure of "AND I have been denied access to my precious forums!" thrown in as the lightest dusting of victim sprinkles on top.
posted by DarlingBri at 10:47 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by DarlingBri at 10:47 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
I would guess a combination of "Sorry you were offended" + "It was just a joke! C'mon don't be like that" + "I don't understand why my joke required such punishment" + "Ah well, we're all good now right?" + a complete lack of reflection on why what he did was wrong and being generally blasé about it. Bleh.
posted by pyrex at 10:48 AM on August 27, 2012
posted by pyrex at 10:48 AM on August 27, 2012
Any apology with the word 'but' in it is going to be on shaky ground
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:49 AM on August 27, 2012 [15 favorites]
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 10:49 AM on August 27, 2012 [15 favorites]
Man, it would be wonderful to never hear the phrase "white knight" again.
"Male feminist to king's bishop 3" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
posted by RogerB at 10:50 AM on August 27, 2012 [19 favorites]
"Male feminist to king's bishop 3" just doesn't have the same ring to it.
posted by RogerB at 10:50 AM on August 27, 2012 [19 favorites]
DWRoelands - I am guessing that the PM was sent to the mod/developer as well, though I can't verify that it works this way on their system.
posted by Mister_A at 10:50 AM on August 27, 2012
posted by Mister_A at 10:50 AM on August 27, 2012
Dungeons of Dreadmor is a fantastic and addictive game. This story is just the icing on the cake. I have several female friends who are gamers, and they have to put up with this sort of crap all the time, and not just on the cesspool that is Xbox Live.
To the sammich joke makers: It's not funny. You're not funny. You're not clever or witty. You're an asshole, and the only people who do find your stupid sammich jokes funny are other not-clever, unfunny assholes. Also, news flash: Misogyny doesn't exactly make you attractive to women.
posted by xedrik at 10:50 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
To the sammich joke makers: It's not funny. You're not funny. You're not clever or witty. You're an asshole, and the only people who do find your stupid sammich jokes funny are other not-clever, unfunny assholes. Also, news flash: Misogyny doesn't exactly make you attractive to women.
posted by xedrik at 10:50 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
From this, am I correctly understanding that the board admins over at Gaslight read private messages?
It's quite possible that the moderator in question was carbon copied on the message. It's also fairly common on message boards for high-level mods (or at least board admin) to have access to private messages, usually for monitoring situations just like this. A user was temp-banned and has come back, admins want to make sure they don't immediately start harassing people again, or whatever.
I'm a board admin on a couple phpBB-based forums, and on both we have this feature enabled. I think I've actually used it maybe twice, in both cases to monitor the return of a temp-banned troublemaker. Not sure about Gaslight's, but in our TOS this is clearly spelled out (users know that PMs are not 100% private.)
posted by xedrik at 10:55 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
It's quite possible that the moderator in question was carbon copied on the message. It's also fairly common on message boards for high-level mods (or at least board admin) to have access to private messages, usually for monitoring situations just like this. A user was temp-banned and has come back, admins want to make sure they don't immediately start harassing people again, or whatever.
I'm a board admin on a couple phpBB-based forums, and on both we have this feature enabled. I think I've actually used it maybe twice, in both cases to monitor the return of a temp-banned troublemaker. Not sure about Gaslight's, but in our TOS this is clearly spelled out (users know that PMs are not 100% private.)
posted by xedrik at 10:55 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
To the sammich joke makers: It's not funny. You're not funny. You're not clever or witty. You're an asshole, and the only people who do find your stupid sammich jokes funny are other not-clever, unfunny assholes. Also, news flash: Misogyny doesn't exactly make you attractive to women.
BUT SAMMICH!
In another time and age in England, there were people throwing bananas onto the football field when the black players came on. It's really past time for people to stop doing the same to women.
posted by jaduncan at 10:55 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
BUT SAMMICH!
In another time and age in England, there were people throwing bananas onto the football field when the black players came on. It's really past time for people to stop doing the same to women.
posted by jaduncan at 10:55 AM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
Isn't white knighting just manspaining? What right do I have to jump in and explain how women may feel?
posted by Ad hominem at 10:57 AM on August 27, 2012
posted by Ad hominem at 10:57 AM on August 27, 2012
Well, we're dealing with a bunch of things here. There's actual white-knighting -- "YOU MUSTN'T OFFEND THE LADY'S EARS WITH SUCH COARSE TALK" (with the "such noble behavior will surely get me laid" subtext) -- and there's actual mansplaining, and then there's just sticking up for someone to whom someone is being a dick. Except sometimes the latter is seen as white-knighting on the simple basis that it's sticking up for a woman against someone being misogynistic.
posted by griphus at 11:03 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
posted by griphus at 11:03 AM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
Ah yes, sandwich-kitchen jokes. A good friend of mine would occasionally say them to me, even after I explained they were irritating. Since he's a tall guy, I started responding every time with "How's the weather up there?" and "Do you play basketball?" and now he gets it.
For what its worth, Dungeons of Dredmor is a fun little game that is totally inoffensive when it comes to gender. It is so inoffensive that I mentally pictured all the developers as women.
posted by subject_verb_remainder at 11:06 AM on August 27, 2012
For what its worth, Dungeons of Dredmor is a fun little game that is totally inoffensive when it comes to gender. It is so inoffensive that I mentally pictured all the developers as women.
posted by subject_verb_remainder at 11:06 AM on August 27, 2012
From this, am I correctly understanding that the board admins over at Gaslight read private messages?
From what he wrote, it seems he was addressing both cakepie and the forum moderators.
posted by Vectorcon Systems at 11:06 AM on August 27, 2012
From what he wrote, it seems he was addressing both cakepie and the forum moderators.
posted by Vectorcon Systems at 11:06 AM on August 27, 2012
Maybe because I would tell people to cut that shit out even if they were doing the same to someone that happened to be male? Don't measure up to the bullies' standards of manliness? Are perhaps gay or trans? Or have a disability, or physical deformity, or etc? That would get me labeled as a white knight as well.
posted by pyrex at 11:07 AM on August 27, 2012
posted by pyrex at 11:07 AM on August 27, 2012
Jaduncan, I believe Ballotelli had bananas thrown at him this year in the Euros so yeah that sort of racist hooliganism isn't really that removed from current practice but yeah that sort of crappy overt racism would generally get called out in all sort of communities, it's a shame that similar sorts of overt misogyny tend to get ignored of not actively condoned in many communities.
posted by vuron at 11:09 AM on August 27, 2012
posted by vuron at 11:09 AM on August 27, 2012
Jaduncan, I believe Ballotelli had bananas thrown at him this year in the Euros so yeah that sort of racist hooliganism isn't really that removed from current practice but yeah that sort of crappy overt racism would generally get called out in all sort of communities, it's a shame that similar sorts of overt misogyny tend to get ignored of not actively condoned in many communities.
Oh yeah, it's a fight won in England rather than in Europe. But if you did it here you'd get temp-banned from the stadium for a minimum of three years[1] and quite possibly end up getting your passport taken during international football tournaments.
Amazing what taking these things seriously can do.
[1] as long as it can be said to have contributed to disorder. See Football Spectators Act 1989 (FSA); Football (Disorder) Act 2000; Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 s.52/Schedule 3.
posted by jaduncan at 11:20 AM on August 27, 2012
Oh yeah, it's a fight won in England rather than in Europe. But if you did it here you'd get temp-banned from the stadium for a minimum of three years[1] and quite possibly end up getting your passport taken during international football tournaments.
Amazing what taking these things seriously can do.
[1] as long as it can be said to have contributed to disorder. See Football Spectators Act 1989 (FSA); Football (Disorder) Act 2000; Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 s.52/Schedule 3.
posted by jaduncan at 11:20 AM on August 27, 2012
This was heart warming and sweet. Thanks for posting it.
posted by medusa at 11:21 AM on August 27, 2012
posted by medusa at 11:21 AM on August 27, 2012
When my wife tells me to make me a sandwich, I insist that she say "sudo make me a sandwich" before I do it. This is apropos of nothing.
Nice to see a story like this have a happy ending. If we keep this up for a generation or two, we might really get somewhere.
posted by Zed at 11:25 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
Nice to see a story like this have a happy ending. If we keep this up for a generation or two, we might really get somewhere.
posted by Zed at 11:25 AM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
Jeez, it's getting to the point where you're accused of sexism almost every time you say something sexist.
posted by ODiV at 12:01 PM on August 27, 2012 [26 favorites]
posted by ODiV at 12:01 PM on August 27, 2012 [26 favorites]
On second thought, that might be a bit optimistic.
posted by ODiV at 12:02 PM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by ODiV at 12:02 PM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
So let's be a stereotype socially inept male gamer where a femaler gamer can come and perhaps, I don't know, you two can get along and maybe one day "BAM" love springs eternal.
But no, we have to say "get back into the kitchen and make me some pie" like Cartman.
I don't get it. And then they bitch and moan "waaaahhh I"m not a stereotype gamer".
Yes you are.
posted by stormpooper at 12:07 PM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
But no, we have to say "get back into the kitchen and make me some pie" like Cartman.
I don't get it. And then they bitch and moan "waaaahhh I"m not a stereotype gamer".
Yes you are.
posted by stormpooper at 12:07 PM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
What a great post. As a female gamer I wish it would happen more.
Over the years I must have heard that sandwich 'joke' over a thousand time. It seems to have evolved into a joke about the joke when use in some cases. It still doesn't make it funny. I do find it funny how many guys still think its funny and laugh among themselves at their shared 'wit'. Some act like they discovered some thing. I've been hearing it for over 15 years. It's about as cliched as a 'joke' gets.
Usually I just ignore it. Any sort of direct comment, especially if the topic of it's sexism is brought up just brings up a whole lot more sexist comments as the 'boys' try to out do themselves with their 'wit'. The positive is it's becomes easy to see who you don't want the play or associate with.
If I'm bored or feeling energetic I will speak back but with commentary that changes it around a bit. The ironic thing, which I do play on with a lot of success is that my computer desk is in my kitchen so I'm already there. lol Had some fun playing on the sandwich/kitchen 'wit' and turning it back on them.
When all else fails though I just go and kick their ass in the game and rub it in that they've been beat by an apron wearing, in the kitchen gamer, that barely has to lift a finger to do so and is all the while eating great and delicious food that she has concocted between pulls or sessions. No hot-pockets for this gal.
I'd be dishonest if I said doing so wasn't extremely satisfying.
posted by Jalliah at 12:21 PM on August 27, 2012 [5 favorites]
I love this story. I like Dungeons of Dredmor a lot; Gaslamp keep putting out awesome new expansion packs for a couple of bucks, and occasionally free. Finding out that they're decent people on top of excellent game-makers is delicious icing on top of an already delicious cake.
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:28 PM on August 27, 2012
posted by Pope Guilty at 12:28 PM on August 27, 2012
Obviously it turned out ok here but, I was wondering about the fact that David Baumgart jumped in to reply to the apology. I suppose in this case, he is tasked with stopping harassment, so it is fair to ban harassers. He is not however tasked with answering apologies on behalf of forum members. Does the fact that he is a man in a position of power make it ok for him to speak on behalf of a female forum member? She says she didn't request any help, so does anyone here think any responses he made on her behalf may have been presumptuous? She was grateful in this case that he took the matter out of her hands, but the next person may not feel that way.
posted by Ad hominem at 12:29 PM on August 27, 2012
posted by Ad hominem at 12:29 PM on August 27, 2012
Think of it like a cocktail party. If someone goes into the room where all the coats are and takes a dump on one of them and hypothetical guest Susan finds out, it's up to the host to say "hey, what the fuck is wrong with you? That coat belongs to Susan." And if the reply is "I'm sorry your coat is so hard to clean, Susan. It was just a harmless prank" it would be pretty shitty of the host to just throw up their hands and walk away because, hey, their problem.
posted by griphus at 12:34 PM on August 27, 2012 [6 favorites]
posted by griphus at 12:34 PM on August 27, 2012 [6 favorites]
Obviously it turned out ok here but, I was wondering about the fact that David Baumgart jumped in to reply to the apology. I suppose in this case, he is tasked with stopping harassment, so it is fair to ban harassers. He is not however tasked with answering apologies on behalf of forum members. Does the fact that he is a man in a position of power make it ok for him to speak on behalf of a female forum member? She says she didn't request any help, so does anyone here think any responses he made on her behalf may have been presumptuous? She was grateful in this case that he took the matter out of her hands, but the next person may not feel that way.
In my opinion no. His response wasn't just a defense of cakepie. What happened to her was a jumping off point of what he the developer thought about the bigger issue of sexism in gaming and how it wasn't going to happen on a forum connected with his game. I didn't read that he was apologizing for other gamers but that he was just stating that overall this sort of BS wasn't going to happen there and gave some explanation as to why.
posted by Jalliah at 12:37 PM on August 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
In my opinion no. His response wasn't just a defense of cakepie. What happened to her was a jumping off point of what he the developer thought about the bigger issue of sexism in gaming and how it wasn't going to happen on a forum connected with his game. I didn't read that he was apologizing for other gamers but that he was just stating that overall this sort of BS wasn't going to happen there and gave some explanation as to why.
posted by Jalliah at 12:37 PM on August 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
I meant that he posted that response in reply to message "Fig 1. Mansplaining", which was directed at Cakepie. I obviously have no problem if he was making a statement of policy, and did it as a sticky. I don't want to make any assumptions here myself, but cakepie hadn't left the room, she had already replied once, there was no reason to assume she couldn't write her own acceptance or dismissal of what she characterized as mansplaining. You don't think that by replying for her he denied her agency? Isn't this the dictionary definition of paternalism?
posted by Ad hominem at 12:47 PM on August 27, 2012
posted by Ad hominem at 12:47 PM on August 27, 2012
I am being too harsh here. Maybe he assumed she had given up and was gone for good. In that case it is better that somebody replies than to let it stand. Good deed done.
posted by Ad hominem at 12:51 PM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by Ad hominem at 12:51 PM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
Yeah, basically. The choices are:
- Let it stand (which doesn't work for obvious reasons)
- Let the person who, just now, got hurt do the replying and fend for themselves.
- Lay down the law and make sure the person who did the hurting knows, beyond the shadow of a doubt, what they did and why it's unacceptable.
We can't really expect every victim of every sort of -ism to be able to articulate why it hurt them, why that person shouldn't do it again, why it's bad for everyone when they do. That goes double for when the wound is fresh; if someone just punched you in the face out of nowhere, you probably wouldn't be in the best place to explain to them why they shouldn't do that, even if you're perfectly capable of it. But that just-punched-in-the-face moment is when the person who did the hurting needs to know that they fucked up. If situations like this aren't taken care of while everyone is still paying attention to them, that makes everything worse. So, at least in my opinion, any reply a mod makes, and any reply she makes, should be equally welcome.
posted by griphus at 1:05 PM on August 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
- Let it stand (which doesn't work for obvious reasons)
- Let the person who, just now, got hurt do the replying and fend for themselves.
- Lay down the law and make sure the person who did the hurting knows, beyond the shadow of a doubt, what they did and why it's unacceptable.
We can't really expect every victim of every sort of -ism to be able to articulate why it hurt them, why that person shouldn't do it again, why it's bad for everyone when they do. That goes double for when the wound is fresh; if someone just punched you in the face out of nowhere, you probably wouldn't be in the best place to explain to them why they shouldn't do that, even if you're perfectly capable of it. But that just-punched-in-the-face moment is when the person who did the hurting needs to know that they fucked up. If situations like this aren't taken care of while everyone is still paying attention to them, that makes everything worse. So, at least in my opinion, any reply a mod makes, and any reply she makes, should be equally welcome.
posted by griphus at 1:05 PM on August 27, 2012 [3 favorites]
Ad hominem, the way I see it he made an example out of Hybelkanin. I don't know what the culture of the forum is/was. I'm guessing he was as tired as I am of seeing misogyny (casual or not) in the gaming community and decided "I don't care if it was an attempted joke or not, that shit will not stand here".
Like Jalliah said, he wasn't defending cakepie specifically; he made clear the stance of Gaslamp that sexism in the forums in any form is unacceptable. Perhaps this was the first time it had happened? Maybe this was an egregious case? Or maybe this had been an ongoing epidemic that the devs decided needed to be squashed?
Based on the blog post she's obviously well prepared to defend herself. Maybe she was in the middle of composing a rebuttal to the original kitchen joke when she refreshed the thread and the dev had posted his, and thought "yeah that's about right, thanks dude" - perhaps along with a ton of posts from fellow forum members rejecting Hybelkanin's post. Maybe the post had been flagged by all of the responders, and the dev post just encompassed all the replies the best.
posted by pyrex at 1:11 PM on August 27, 2012
Like Jalliah said, he wasn't defending cakepie specifically; he made clear the stance of Gaslamp that sexism in the forums in any form is unacceptable. Perhaps this was the first time it had happened? Maybe this was an egregious case? Or maybe this had been an ongoing epidemic that the devs decided needed to be squashed?
Based on the blog post she's obviously well prepared to defend herself. Maybe she was in the middle of composing a rebuttal to the original kitchen joke when she refreshed the thread and the dev had posted his, and thought "yeah that's about right, thanks dude" - perhaps along with a ton of posts from fellow forum members rejecting Hybelkanin's post. Maybe the post had been flagged by all of the responders, and the dev post just encompassed all the replies the best.
posted by pyrex at 1:11 PM on August 27, 2012
Y'know what really makes me truly sad? The fact that there are so many males who still consider grade-school 'attraction strategies' valid and how they apply these days. "Oh hey, there's a lady, how do I attract her... guess I should pull her hair!"
posted by pyrex at 2:21 PM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by pyrex at 2:21 PM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
I have to admit, my impression of the original post was that the poster was aware of Get in the Kitchen comments and was riffing on the idea of those comments because of her username, as opposed to actually making a Get in the Kitchen comment. But that's a pretty fine line, and then he kind of walked back over it in his 'I don't know what I did wrong' non-apology.
posted by jacquilynne at 3:02 PM on August 27, 2012
posted by jacquilynne at 3:02 PM on August 27, 2012
May I just jump in here and say that if you are a female/female friendly gamer, and you are looking for a general gamer's forum; I highly recommend Gamer's With Jobs. I've been a member there, openly female, for almost 8 years. We have lots of female gamers. We have transgender gamers. We have gay gamers. We have traditional male gamers. You name a type of gamer, and we've got one. If we don't, we sure wish they would join.
I wrote for them for a while, and it's the only arena where as a female writing about gaming that I didn't get hassled or get the "sudo make me a sammich" treatment. A big portion of that probably has to do with the older demographic, but an even bigger portion is that the mods brook no shit.
(I say "we" in the royal sense, in that I do not have anything to do with the running of, moderation of, or management of GWJ. But I am a long term, very proud member of the site.)
posted by dejah420 at 4:01 PM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
I wrote for them for a while, and it's the only arena where as a female writing about gaming that I didn't get hassled or get the "sudo make me a sammich" treatment. A big portion of that probably has to do with the older demographic, but an even bigger portion is that the mods brook no shit.
(I say "we" in the royal sense, in that I do not have anything to do with the running of, moderation of, or management of GWJ. But I am a long term, very proud member of the site.)
posted by dejah420 at 4:01 PM on August 27, 2012 [2 favorites]
(erm, excuse the misplaced apostrophe. I'll go smack myself with a ruler.)
posted by dejah420 at 4:02 PM on August 27, 2012
posted by dejah420 at 4:02 PM on August 27, 2012
We have traditional male gamers
I know what you mean by this, but I think I'm going to take it and run with it. When a form asks for my ethnicity or sex, I'm going to put "Traditional" from now on.
posted by benito.strauss at 4:26 PM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
I know what you mean by this, but I think I'm going to take it and run with it. When a form asks for my ethnicity or sex, I'm going to put "Traditional" from now on.
posted by benito.strauss at 4:26 PM on August 27, 2012 [1 favorite]
Ah yes, sandwich-kitchen jokes. A good friend of mine would occasionally say them to me, even after I explained they were irritating. Since he's a tall guy, I started responding every time with "How's the weather up there?" and "Do you play basketball?" and now he gets it.
This is the best way to deal with trash-talk. By talking-trash right back.
posted by Renoroc at 5:15 PM on August 27, 2012
This is the best way to deal with trash-talk. By talking-trash right back.
posted by Renoroc at 5:15 PM on August 27, 2012
Yeah, I'm not a woman, or a gamer, but I'd like to live in a world where "make me a sandwich" is responded to, reflexively and almost unconsciously, with "make your own damn sandwich".
posted by benito.strauss at 6:10 PM on August 27, 2012
posted by benito.strauss at 6:10 PM on August 27, 2012
Y'know what really makes me truly sad? The fact that there are so many males who still consider grade-school 'attraction strategies' valid and how they apply these days. "Oh hey, there's a lady, how do I attract her... guess I should pull her hair!"I'm gonna use that!
"nice Hair Pulling Dude, quick quick show her how far you can spit"
posted by fullerine at 6:10 PM on August 27, 2012 [4 favorites]
Respond to Hair Pulling Dude by ordering him to remove his pants. You know, cos he wants the most direct approach.
Best case scenario: he recognizes the problem.
Worst case scenario: you have a clear shot at deez nuts.
posted by LogicalDash at 8:00 PM on August 27, 2012
Best case scenario: he recognizes the problem.
Worst case scenario: you have a clear shot at deez nuts.
posted by LogicalDash at 8:00 PM on August 27, 2012
You guys, I think we're all getting derailed from a key point here, and that key point is the concept of cakepie. Pie made out of cake. It's going to happen, it has to happen, I'm going to make it happen.
In the kitchen, no less.
posted by Deathalicious at 9:18 PM on August 27, 2012
In the kitchen, no less.
posted by Deathalicious at 9:18 PM on August 27, 2012
A bit of glancing at the forum thread in question suggests that DBaumgart wasn't actually involved in reading the PM at all, and wanted his thoughts on the issue as it pertained to forum moderation crystal clear in thread.
(I'm a semi-irregular at the Dredmor forum. It's generally a very nice place to be).
posted by Archelaus at 1:22 AM on August 28, 2012
(I'm a semi-irregular at the Dredmor forum. It's generally a very nice place to be).
posted by Archelaus at 1:22 AM on August 28, 2012
I completely don't get the sammich joke... I comprehend what they're going for but good ole persnickety me can't help but get down on the details and blow the whole joke out of the water.
In a nutshell: I make myself a better sandwich than anyone else on this planet.
It has zero to do with mine and MrsEld's relationship dynamic and everything to do with the fact that I know just how many of what topping to put and where to place it on the bread. Maybe those years of working at Subway in high school are the cause. *shrug*
/geekrant
That said, I would love if MrsEld played video games with me but I just can't make it happen. I've tried thinking games like Portal, kooky games like Katamari Damacy, emotional RPG games, everything... so to those of you out there making sammich jokes I have nothing but disdain because you may have turned someone away from gaming who might have found a sincerely joyful relationship with another like minded gamer somewhere down the road. That's pretty much the definition of shitting where you eat, no sammich pun intended. Not to mention you're a misogynistic asshat, but I can't really make myself be surprised by that aspect of things, sadly...
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:20 AM on August 28, 2012
In a nutshell: I make myself a better sandwich than anyone else on this planet.
It has zero to do with mine and MrsEld's relationship dynamic and everything to do with the fact that I know just how many of what topping to put and where to place it on the bread. Maybe those years of working at Subway in high school are the cause. *shrug*
/geekrant
That said, I would love if MrsEld played video games with me but I just can't make it happen. I've tried thinking games like Portal, kooky games like Katamari Damacy, emotional RPG games, everything... so to those of you out there making sammich jokes I have nothing but disdain because you may have turned someone away from gaming who might have found a sincerely joyful relationship with another like minded gamer somewhere down the road. That's pretty much the definition of shitting where you eat, no sammich pun intended. Not to mention you're a misogynistic asshat, but I can't really make myself be surprised by that aspect of things, sadly...
posted by RolandOfEld at 7:20 AM on August 28, 2012
That's interesting Roland. My wife contends that the best tasting food is food she did not prepare herself. I could make a sandwich just like what she would make for herself, but because she didn't make it, it tastes better to her.
posted by ODiV at 8:32 AM on August 28, 2012
posted by ODiV at 8:32 AM on August 28, 2012
Lord knows it's like that for other foods with us too. But sandwiches, those are.... special for some reason.
Now I'm getting all introspective over how weird that is.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:46 AM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
Now I'm getting all introspective over how weird that is.
posted by RolandOfEld at 8:46 AM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
Over the years I must have heard that sandwich 'joke' over a thousand time. It seems to have evolved into a joke about the joke when use in some cases.
At some point in college some friends and I "updated" it to "Get into the workforce and buy me a sandwich."
Which is still sexist in its own way, and I'd be annoyed if people had started slinging it around in earnest, but it was good for a stupid laugh on an idle afternoon.
posted by kagredon at 9:21 AM on August 28, 2012
At some point in college some friends and I "updated" it to "Get into the workforce and buy me a sandwich."
Which is still sexist in its own way, and I'd be annoyed if people had started slinging it around in earnest, but it was good for a stupid laugh on an idle afternoon.
posted by kagredon at 9:21 AM on August 28, 2012
Okay, I guess this makes me a bad person, but the big thing I came away with from that article:
What did she do in Dredmor that made her feel like a ninja? I mean, I'm sorry she had a problem, and I'm glad it was resolved to everyone's satisfaction, but I want to know about ninja antics.
posted by Malor at 10:32 AM on August 28, 2012
What did she do in Dredmor that made her feel like a ninja? I mean, I'm sorry she had a problem, and I'm glad it was resolved to everyone's satisfaction, but I want to know about ninja antics.
posted by Malor at 10:32 AM on August 28, 2012
What did she do in Dredmor that made her feel like a ninja?
Haven't played it much beyond release date and then only to the third or fourth level of the dungeon but my supposition is that she beat the game
1) at the hardest difficulty setting,
2) with the hardest level layouts,
3) with a random skillset generated for her,
4) at a specific version or combination of expansions that is 'hardest'.
So yea, to beat a rougelike worth it's salt under the following conditions is completely ninja like. Heck I'm still trying to beat Angband before losing interest or getting frustrated and quitting (and that's with savefile-scumming a few times / runthrough).
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:39 AM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
Haven't played it much beyond release date and then only to the third or fourth level of the dungeon but my supposition is that she beat the game
1) at the hardest difficulty setting,
2) with the hardest level layouts,
3) with a random skillset generated for her,
4) at a specific version or combination of expansions that is 'hardest'.
So yea, to beat a rougelike worth it's salt under the following conditions is completely ninja like. Heck I'm still trying to beat Angband before losing interest or getting frustrated and quitting (and that's with savefile-scumming a few times / runthrough).
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:39 AM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
I believe it's explained in the very first link in her blog post.
posted by ODiV at 10:40 AM on August 28, 2012
posted by ODiV at 10:40 AM on August 28, 2012
A cut and paste comment sums it up for those who aren't exactly used to how rougelikes are especially hard comes in the form of a comment from her blog post:
Approaching 800 hours of the game, personally, and I *still* haven’t won. Never been past dungeon level 10, either, and only been there twice – once pre-expansion (Dredmor killed me in 2 hits) and once after. On Elvishly Easy both times.
Oh, well. Someday. Maybe.
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:45 AM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
Approaching 800 hours of the game, personally, and I *still* haven’t won. Never been past dungeon level 10, either, and only been there twice – once pre-expansion (Dredmor killed me in 2 hits) and once after. On Elvishly Easy both times.
Oh, well. Someday. Maybe.
posted by RolandOfEld at 10:45 AM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
rougelike
Inevitable, but funny given the context.
posted by ODiV at 10:49 AM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
Inevitable, but funny given the context.
posted by ODiV at 10:49 AM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
In a tangentially related note, the insulting party in this altercation didn't even have the eloquence to word his request such that he'd make a Dredmor item joke. Sad really.
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:14 PM on August 28, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by RolandOfEld at 12:14 PM on August 28, 2012 [2 favorites]
May I just jump in here and say that if you are a female/female friendly gamer, and you are looking for a general gamer's forum; I highly recommend Gamer's With Jobs. I've been a member there, openly female, for almost 8 years. We have lots of female gamers. We have transgender gamers. We have gay gamers. We have traditional male gamers. You name a type of gamer, and we've got one.unemployed gamers, gamers between opportunities
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 4:30 PM on August 28, 2012 [1 favorite]
temporarily inconvenienced millionaire gamers
posted by Zed at 5:23 PM on August 28, 2012 [2 favorites]
posted by Zed at 5:23 PM on August 28, 2012 [2 favorites]
...and I just reinstalled and bought the expansions. There goes my marriage.
posted by RolandOfEld at 5:46 PM on August 28, 2012
posted by RolandOfEld at 5:46 PM on August 28, 2012
homeless gamers
does workers' comp count as 'gamer with job' or is that even a thing stateside
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 2:42 AM on August 29, 2012
does workers' comp count as 'gamer with job' or is that even a thing stateside
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 2:42 AM on August 29, 2012
Gaslamp Games recently announced their second game, which appears to be a steampunk city-building sim.
posted by kagredon at 2:09 PM on August 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
posted by kagredon at 2:09 PM on August 29, 2012 [1 favorite]
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