“People never expect a youth to challenge the government".
March 18, 2013 9:19 AM Subscribe
The Manitoba government's Bill C-18 compels all publicly-funded schools to accommodate students who want to form gay-straigt alliances. This bill has been met with resistance by religious schools, federal ministers and local clergy. Despite the furor, Education Minister Nancy Allan is not backing down, nor is sixteen-year old activist Evan Wiens.
I'd have thought the easy fix here is to call their bluff: add language to the bill saying that no one should be bulllied on the basis of their faith.
posted by yoink at 9:30 AM on March 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by yoink at 9:30 AM on March 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
Do religious schools in Manitoba accept federal government or provincial government funding? If so, they're subject to government regulation. I have no idea why people have the idea that institutions should be able to (and expected to) accept government money without any strings associated with it.
That said, if the schools accept no funding (like Hillsdale College in the USA), it's not clear to me what compelling government interest to interfere with a private institution exists in an exclusively non-academic area like an extracurricular club.
posted by saeculorum at 9:56 AM on March 18, 2013
That said, if the schools accept no funding (like Hillsdale College in the USA), it's not clear to me what compelling government interest to interfere with a private institution exists in an exclusively non-academic area like an extracurricular club.
posted by saeculorum at 9:56 AM on March 18, 2013
Yes, they get about half their funding from the government.
I can think of a number of ways in which a school, even one that accepts no government funding, should be required to follow the law.
posted by jeather at 10:00 AM on March 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
I can think of a number of ways in which a school, even one that accepts no government funding, should be required to follow the law.
posted by jeather at 10:00 AM on March 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
it's not clear to me what compelling government interest to interfere with a private institution exists in an exclusively non-academic area like an extracurricular club.
If a school has a gay-straight alliance, then it has carved out some small safe space for these kids, even if absolutely nothing else is different. And actively fighting against the very idea of having one is a whistle -- not just a dog whistle, an actually audible signal -- that the school and its staff and its teachers and its kids don't like gay kids. LGBT youths are orders of magnitude more likely to commit suicide. The fact that we are losing the most fundamental resource of governments -- human beings -- is a compelling government interest.
posted by Etrigan at 10:05 AM on March 18, 2013 [8 favorites]
If a school has a gay-straight alliance, then it has carved out some small safe space for these kids, even if absolutely nothing else is different. And actively fighting against the very idea of having one is a whistle -- not just a dog whistle, an actually audible signal -- that the school and its staff and its teachers and its kids don't like gay kids. LGBT youths are orders of magnitude more likely to commit suicide. The fact that we are losing the most fundamental resource of governments -- human beings -- is a compelling government interest.
posted by Etrigan at 10:05 AM on March 18, 2013 [8 favorites]
OH NOES A GAY-STRAIGHT ALLIANCE!! clutches pearls, swoons.
As with all things the most conservative types lose their minds over, you can't help wondering what they think goes on in these meetings. Orgies? Satanic rituals? Giving kids a space to meet to talk about themselves is such a minimal thing.
posted by emjaybee at 10:22 AM on March 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
As with all things the most conservative types lose their minds over, you can't help wondering what they think goes on in these meetings. Orgies? Satanic rituals? Giving kids a space to meet to talk about themselves is such a minimal thing.
posted by emjaybee at 10:22 AM on March 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
If I recall correctly, there was a similar kerfuffle in Ontario a year ago, when they were passing anti-bullying laws. The people opposing the laws played the angle of religious freedom.
But when trying to play the "freedom" card against a law that essentially says, "If students want to start a Gay-Straight alliance club, you have to accommodate that," they're fighting for the freedom to force that religion on students, whose freedoms are apparently of no concern.
If there's a local context to this being a thing in Steinbach, it'll be the Mennonites. Toews, Duerkson and Wiens are all Mennonite names. (Though, the quoted Southland Church is Evangelical.)
posted by RobotHero at 10:23 AM on March 18, 2013
But when trying to play the "freedom" card against a law that essentially says, "If students want to start a Gay-Straight alliance club, you have to accommodate that," they're fighting for the freedom to force that religion on students, whose freedoms are apparently of no concern.
If there's a local context to this being a thing in Steinbach, it'll be the Mennonites. Toews, Duerkson and Wiens are all Mennonite names. (Though, the quoted Southland Church is Evangelical.)
posted by RobotHero at 10:23 AM on March 18, 2013
Ugh. Chabad-Lubovitch (Orthodox) Rabbi Avrohom Altein of Winnipeg:
But more importantly, how is it not intolerant to teach children that bullying their fellow gay students is okay? In what universe can it possibly be considered inappropriate to show impressionable students that their gay friends and colleagues deserve a safe space in which to talk about things, and perhaps even work their way through feelings of rejection, depression and/or suicide? That they shouldn't be attacked. Or bullied. Or mistreated. Or othered. Or that it is acceptable in any way to use religion as a justification for bigotry?
Even given the routine homophobia evident in some Orthodox Jewish communities, his priorities are pretty fucked up and damned offensive.
There's a Chabad preschool less than a mile from my house. I enrolled and drive my kids to a more expensive, less-conveniently located non-religious preschool precisely because of Chabadnik bullshit like this.
posted by zarq at 10:33 AM on March 18, 2013 [5 favorites]
"Orthodox Judaism believes in the sanctity of the Bible that rejects homosexuality, as do other great religions. It would be the height of intolerance to ban a religious group from teaching and practising as it believes."First of all, he shouldn't claim to speak for all Orthodox Jews. He doesn't.
But more importantly, how is it not intolerant to teach children that bullying their fellow gay students is okay? In what universe can it possibly be considered inappropriate to show impressionable students that their gay friends and colleagues deserve a safe space in which to talk about things, and perhaps even work their way through feelings of rejection, depression and/or suicide? That they shouldn't be attacked. Or bullied. Or mistreated. Or othered. Or that it is acceptable in any way to use religion as a justification for bigotry?
Even given the routine homophobia evident in some Orthodox Jewish communities, his priorities are pretty fucked up and damned offensive.
There's a Chabad preschool less than a mile from my house. I enrolled and drive my kids to a more expensive, less-conveniently located non-religious preschool precisely because of Chabadnik bullshit like this.
posted by zarq at 10:33 AM on March 18, 2013 [5 favorites]
Interesting that the pastor won't be interviewed where his views could be challenged. Sorry, "Interesting" should read "Typical".
posted by IncognitoErgoSum at 10:38 AM on March 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by IncognitoErgoSum at 10:38 AM on March 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
If there's a local context to this being a thing in Steinbach, it'll be the Mennonites.
It is partly an inter-Mennonite battle (see this defense of the law by Aaron Hildebrandt), though a few other religious groups also oppose the law.
posted by jeffen at 10:38 AM on March 18, 2013
It is partly an inter-Mennonite battle (see this defense of the law by Aaron Hildebrandt), though a few other religious groups also oppose the law.
posted by jeffen at 10:38 AM on March 18, 2013
Tolerating the religiously intolerant doesn't mean that you let them rule over you (or anyone).
posted by srboisvert at 10:43 AM on March 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 10:43 AM on March 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
Brave kid; I hope he doesn't end up being killed over this.
posted by happyroach at 10:51 AM on March 18, 2013
posted by happyroach at 10:51 AM on March 18, 2013
This bill has been met with resistance by religious schools, federal ministers and local clergy.
Who Would Jesus Bully?
posted by Thorzdad at 11:33 AM on March 18, 2013 [4 favorites]
Who Would Jesus Bully?
posted by Thorzdad at 11:33 AM on March 18, 2013 [4 favorites]
Yeah - Ontario has definitely had this fight over the past year or so. It...didn't work for those claiming a religious exemption, as I recall. Nor will this one, thankfully.
Here in this case, I would argue that an extracurricular club is not exclusively non-academic, or at least not "non-school-related", which is the appropriate question. Government has an overriding interest in ensuring education for children in any accredited institute, and quite likely even in those that aren't [given that primary education is mandatory until 16 or so]. I know the teachers' union in Ontario count extracurriculars as a school-related activity that falls under the purview of their bargaining power.
Evan sounds pretty awesome, and I wish him all the best.
posted by Lemurrhea at 11:43 AM on March 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Here in this case, I would argue that an extracurricular club is not exclusively non-academic, or at least not "non-school-related", which is the appropriate question. Government has an overriding interest in ensuring education for children in any accredited institute, and quite likely even in those that aren't [given that primary education is mandatory until 16 or so]. I know the teachers' union in Ontario count extracurriculars as a school-related activity that falls under the purview of their bargaining power.
Evan sounds pretty awesome, and I wish him all the best.
posted by Lemurrhea at 11:43 AM on March 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Publicly funded schools should reflect the values of Canadian society as a whole (and Canadian society says that being gay is A-OK), so this seems like a no-brainer.
posted by asnider at 12:19 PM on March 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by asnider at 12:19 PM on March 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
I would join forces with the resident geeky extracurricular clubs and form a Takei-Straight Alliance Club. But I am secretly five years old and should not be listened to in matters of public policy.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:35 PM on March 18, 2013
posted by nicebookrack at 12:35 PM on March 18, 2013
When I read the words of those who oppose this bill on religious grounds I want to cry with frustration and anger. I don't believe these are the things that Jesus would do or say.
What follows are the embryoic thoughts of someone who has been immersed in the European evangelical church world for over 30 years, 3 of those years spent in theological training and 12 as a Christian minister. I speak only for myself.
It is, I think, normal that a church would have its own internal standards by which it measures and judges itself and its members. There is a discussion to be had about those who grow up within the church and who may not be able to, or want to, adhere to those standards - but that's not what we're talking about, at least here and now. The problem is, as I see it, that the church wants to impose its internal standards (whatever the collective 'you' may think of them) on the world around it. And I don't think it has any right to do so.
A couple of years ago I worked through the New Testament book of 1 Corinthians which has quite a lot to say about how the church relates to the world. There is a verse in chapter 5 that struck me and has nagged at me for what feels like ages and it's only now that I feel like I have enough of a handle on it and have grown enough in my own understanding of 'things' (thanks Mefi!) that I would say anything much - here or anywhere.
The verse in question says "For what do I have to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you."
This is the Apostle Paul speaking, famous for being used by those who oppose any kind of rights for homosexuals.
I've wrestled with the implications of this verse but in my mind it boils down to this, in this context: the church has nothing to say about Bill C-18 and has no place to stand in judgement upon those who would support it. The church should be happy to leave the world in G-d's hands. If he is who he says he is he's quite capable of dealing with these things in his own time. The church should maybe be concentrating on other, internal, matters.
It could probably do with a re-think on who the evil person is too. It might be the man up front.
posted by IncognitoErgoSum at 2:05 PM on March 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
What follows are the embryoic thoughts of someone who has been immersed in the European evangelical church world for over 30 years, 3 of those years spent in theological training and 12 as a Christian minister. I speak only for myself.
It is, I think, normal that a church would have its own internal standards by which it measures and judges itself and its members. There is a discussion to be had about those who grow up within the church and who may not be able to, or want to, adhere to those standards - but that's not what we're talking about, at least here and now. The problem is, as I see it, that the church wants to impose its internal standards (whatever the collective 'you' may think of them) on the world around it. And I don't think it has any right to do so.
A couple of years ago I worked through the New Testament book of 1 Corinthians which has quite a lot to say about how the church relates to the world. There is a verse in chapter 5 that struck me and has nagged at me for what feels like ages and it's only now that I feel like I have enough of a handle on it and have grown enough in my own understanding of 'things' (thanks Mefi!) that I would say anything much - here or anywhere.
The verse in question says "For what do I have to do with judging outsiders? Is it not those inside the church whom you are to judge? God judges those outside. Purge the evil person from among you."
This is the Apostle Paul speaking, famous for being used by those who oppose any kind of rights for homosexuals.
I've wrestled with the implications of this verse but in my mind it boils down to this, in this context: the church has nothing to say about Bill C-18 and has no place to stand in judgement upon those who would support it. The church should be happy to leave the world in G-d's hands. If he is who he says he is he's quite capable of dealing with these things in his own time. The church should maybe be concentrating on other, internal, matters.
It could probably do with a re-think on who the evil person is too. It might be the man up front.
posted by IncognitoErgoSum at 2:05 PM on March 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
That said, if the schools accept no funding (like Hillsdale College in the USA), it's not clear to me what compelling government interest to interfere with a private institution exists in an exclusively non-academic area like an extracurricular club.
It's not clear to me what compelling personal interest in this article exists that forced you to leave a comment without reading even the pullquote at the top of this page.
posted by jacalata at 3:13 PM on March 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's not clear to me what compelling personal interest in this article exists that forced you to leave a comment without reading even the pullquote at the top of this page.
posted by jacalata at 3:13 PM on March 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
I hope he gets the support he needs to stand up to this intolerance. All power to him.
posted by arcticseal at 3:18 PM on March 18, 2013
posted by arcticseal at 3:18 PM on March 18, 2013
During Evan’s interviews, with cameras rolling, other students shout slurs at him.
Ugh, this makes me so angry! How can anyone watch footage like that and still argue against antibullying legislation? I'm doing the online equivalent of sputtering over here, typing and deleting sentences in consternation as I try to come up with a coherent response. So infuriating.
posted by vytae at 3:35 PM on March 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Ugh, this makes me so angry! How can anyone watch footage like that and still argue against antibullying legislation? I'm doing the online equivalent of sputtering over here, typing and deleting sentences in consternation as I try to come up with a coherent response. So infuriating.
posted by vytae at 3:35 PM on March 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Nice InCognitoErgoSum. And Paul, it should be remembered, was a famous bully and persecutor of Christians and participated in St. Stephen's murder, which was essentially a gang banging. So his words in 1 Corinthians are the words of an actual murdering bully who has changed his ways. What a good teacher to listen to. Perhaps the faith leaders quoted in these articles will reflect on that example in time.
posted by salishsea at 7:14 PM on March 18, 2013
posted by salishsea at 7:14 PM on March 18, 2013
Wow, the comments in the globe and mail article are....
Great. The outpouring of support is quite wonderful.
posted by el io at 9:54 PM on March 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
Great. The outpouring of support is quite wonderful.
posted by el io at 9:54 PM on March 18, 2013 [2 favorites]
Wow, the comments in the globe and mail article are....
Great. The outpouring of support is quite wonderful.
Through what is surely some combination of effective moderation and sorcery, the Globe's comments section tends to be a lot less ugly than most newspapers.
posted by asnider at 9:42 AM on March 19, 2013
Great. The outpouring of support is quite wonderful.
Through what is surely some combination of effective moderation and sorcery, the Globe's comments section tends to be a lot less ugly than most newspapers.
posted by asnider at 9:42 AM on March 19, 2013
It is partly an inter-Mennonite battle
Well, like I said, Wiens is a Mennonite name, so Evan is coming from inside that culture, too. Obviously I don't know if he's currently practicing, but there's going to be a range of attitudes in any religion.
But, for example, Steinbach was dry until 2003, so there is precedent for the most conservative Mennonites pushing their values on everyone else.
I found a video of Wiens from the CBC. Apparently the principal had offered him the "compromise" of having a student group that he couldn't advertise.
posted by RobotHero at 11:00 AM on March 19, 2013
Well, like I said, Wiens is a Mennonite name, so Evan is coming from inside that culture, too. Obviously I don't know if he's currently practicing, but there's going to be a range of attitudes in any religion.
But, for example, Steinbach was dry until 2003, so there is precedent for the most conservative Mennonites pushing their values on everyone else.
I found a video of Wiens from the CBC. Apparently the principal had offered him the "compromise" of having a student group that he couldn't advertise.
posted by RobotHero at 11:00 AM on March 19, 2013
Toronto School Board Spokesperson Sends Police Out To Hassle One Of Its Critics
posted by jeffburdges at 11:26 AM on March 21, 2013
posted by jeffburdges at 11:26 AM on March 21, 2013
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