Buttoning Up Up and Away!

April 3, 2013 6:45 AM

Fully Dressed Redesigns of Superheroines. Artist Mike Lunsford redesigns several prominent superheroines' costumes to show a lot less skin while retaining the feel of their original outfits.
posted by robocop is bleeding (158 comments total)

I really liked the Psylocke and Powergirl redesigns, but the poor fellow seems to have some sort of oversized pants fetish - David Byrne has much to answer for.

(Interesting to note that tights with boots are worn in the workplace by women who do not have superpowers these days. What an odd place the future is.)
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:51 AM on April 3, 2013 [7 favorites]

Wonder Woman in casual friday khakis?
posted by R. Mutt at 6:56 AM on April 3, 2013 [16 favorites]

Wonder Woman's boots are so oversized she looks like a little kid wearing her mother's boots, but in general, I applaud this.

Maybe next, he can do the male superheros in the usual three square inches of painted-on latex the females are usually "dressed" in.
posted by easily confused at 6:56 AM on April 3, 2013 [4 favorites]

I appreciate this, because Zatanna's costume is kind of a weird mix of "stage magician" and "stage magician's sexy assistant." Pick a side, asshole.
posted by Uppity Pigeon #2 at 6:59 AM on April 3, 2013 [5 favorites]

Maybe next, he can do the male superheros in the usual three square inches of painted-on latex the females are usually "dressed" in.

"No, people have already done that, I’m not interested in it. I don’t want to make bad examples, there are enough of those out there."

Also, I'm really enjoying his casual Spider-Man.
posted by narain at 7:02 AM on April 3, 2013 [7 favorites]

On come on, Zatana's outfit looks kind of comfortable; just the thing to save the universe from arcane doom. And it has plenty of pockets. Compared to her current outfit, which I imagine makes it difficult to sit down....
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:02 AM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

I think it is an interesting experiment, even if they all have a "suburban mom" look about them.
posted by R. Mutt at 7:07 AM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah, the Wonder Woman one is the only one that really gave me trouble, mostly because I feel like loose khakis and floppy boots doesn't really sell the whole Shining Beacon of Command and Warriorness thing super well. The boots look clumsy and the pants just kind of clash texturally with the stuff up top. Something like riding breeches and leather boots would sell the Wonder Woman attitude better, though probably not that exactly unless we're doing some WWI Elseworlds thing.

And I dig the attempt to keep Supergirl's midriff thing without actually having the midriff there, but the result feels a little bit frumpy somehow with the layers. A simple color pattern contrast on a solid shirt front would've felt less silly.

All that said, it's a neat exercise and I like where he's coming from. And I'm trying to examine my reactions here partly in terms of my drilled-in expectations of superhero costume design; how much of what I blink at is straight-up problematic as costume design and how much is just "but there's not supposed to be any lines there, it should just be the shape of a leg/arm/shoulder!" instincts making a fuss because that's what I've seen so constantly in comics.
posted by cortex at 7:08 AM on April 3, 2013 [5 favorites]

Not exactly super anymore, are they.
posted by Outlawyr at 7:09 AM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

Zatana's shirt shouldn't come below her vest. It looks weird. Seconding the thing with Wonder Woman's khaki's.

My favorite is the Vampirella redesign. It's a vast improvement over the expensive napkin she's been forced to wear all this time.
posted by KHAAAN! at 7:10 AM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

That's no fun!
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 7:10 AM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

Zatana, Elektra and Black Canary all look great and smart. However, if I was Supergirl I would wear next to nothing ALL THE TIME.

The character is young and can where what she wants: She's invulnerable.

Plus: When you got it flaunt it.

Not to mention, who's going to tell her otherwise?
posted by Mike Mongo at 7:10 AM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

Now.. if we can get the overflowing hair under control.
posted by edgeways at 7:10 AM on April 3, 2013 [5 favorites]

Anything that questions the ridiculous status quo is a good thing, but this is still weird. They remind me of, like, Mormon swimwear catalogs or something. There is a palpable and manufactured modesty here, to my eyes, that plays the way the aforementioned religious modesty does. Not as fairness or sensibility or equality, but as a forced respect in the form of otherness thing. I dunno. They are beautifully drawn, and they come from the right place, but I'm not sold.
posted by dirtdirt at 7:10 AM on April 3, 2013 [33 favorites]

Also, I'm really enjoying his casual Spider-Man.

If I were a petty criminal in Marvel's New York, I'd say I'd gotten beaten and tied up by a blue-and-red spandex blur, even if it was really some kid in a hoodie.
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 7:11 AM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

The most realistic super hero wardrobe would mimic what soldiers and performance nerds wear. No high heels, spandex, capes or any of that nonsense. Just pure heavy-duty milspec stuff designed for durability, maneuverability and performance. A top hat - you're having a laugh.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 7:16 AM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

The most realistic super hero wardrobe....

Um-
posted by IndigoJones at 7:22 AM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

The oversized boots convinced me this has to be a parody. All these folks need is some sort of head covering and they'll be all set.
posted by KokuRyu at 7:22 AM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

How about one where the male superheroes are drawn with breasts?
posted by Renoroc at 7:24 AM on April 3, 2013

These have the same problems as a lot of redesigns as they all look the same. Any individuality is lost.
posted by MartinWisse at 7:24 AM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

You know what it is, is if Annie Hall had originally been a pulp comic character with the standard skintight+skin outfit and but then Woody Allen had decided to subvert those origins entirely by making a film with Diane Keaton turning the character into half of a neurotic New York odd couple, the ones I'm having a problem with would actually be the perfect approach to the costume design. It's got that sort of fun-with-layers, overdressed-and-undercoordinated thing that works perfectly for that character even if it feels a little off for superheroes.

Also I now desperately want to read that Annie Hall comic book.
posted by cortex at 7:25 AM on April 3, 2013 [11 favorites]

He clearly has a thing for layered clothes, big baggy pants, giant boots.

... KEEP THIS MAN AWAY FROM THE SNOWBOARDING SCHOOL!!!
posted by barnacles at 7:27 AM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

I've always liked Zatanna's eighties costume (scroll down a bit) as well as the Black Canary costume of that time, but unfortunately nobody else did.
posted by MartinWisse at 7:28 AM on April 3, 2013

I think these redos would be more fair if they offered as much coverage as male superhero costumes do, but were as skin-tight and put as much emphasis on certain anatomical features as typical male costumes.
posted by sparklemotion at 7:30 AM on April 3, 2013 [2 favorites]

do dr. manhattan
posted by This, of course, alludes to you at 7:31 AM on April 3, 2013 [2 favorites]

How about one where the male superheroes are drawn with breasts?

This already exists, and it's called: the way Frank Miller has been drawing women for the last decade or so.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:31 AM on April 3, 2013 [12 favorites]

Although sometimes they're more drawn as blow-up dolls. So either or.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:33 AM on April 3, 2013

Also I now desperately want to read that Annie Hall comic book.

BEHOLD THE POWER OF...THE DEAD SHARK!!!
posted by Bromius at 7:33 AM on April 3, 2013

However, if I was Supergirl I would wear next to nothing ALL THE TIME.

The character is young and can where what she wants: She's invulnerable.

Plus: When you got it flaunt it.

Not to mention, who's going to tell her otherwise?

As we've already seen with Dr. Manhattan, of course. (psst, This, of course, alludes to you: he had a double-breasted suit in the book when he wasn't giving the world the full monty.)

Also, yeah, the khakis stand out like a sore thumb with WW, although I sort of like it on the other heroines. (Every member of the Hand had red ninja pajamas, except for Elektra, who had an itty bitty loincloth. Go figure.) WW looks best in armor, which she's intermittently had when she's dressed for the job rather than for fanservice.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:34 AM on April 3, 2013

Interesting. What I learned from this experiment is that going this far in the other direction for powerful characters like WW, Supergirl and Powergirl seems to diminish the level of confidence they project.

I think he hits a real sweetspot with the martial artists, Huntress, Psylock and Elektra. Huntress, especially, is the best costume I've ever seen for that character.

Zatanna looks like an awesome female Doctor Who concept, but even that amount of running in those pants is going to get her killed. It doesn't evoke superhero at all for me.
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 7:35 AM on April 3, 2013 [4 favorites]

The poses also make a big difference here. I think he could get away with drawing these characters in their 'normal' costumes and not trip the Skeevy Meter. The contortions that some artists put the female body through are magnitudes worse than then clothes they draw on them.

Also, fair play to my wife who is the one who sent me the link to these. She knows I've restarted my reboot blog and am interested in different versions of established comicbook heroes.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:37 AM on April 3, 2013 [2 favorites]

Huntress, especially, is the best costume I've ever seen for that character.

Except that's Black Canary.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 7:38 AM on April 3, 2013 [2 favorites]

Sure, deck your lower limbs in pants...
posted by themanwho at 7:41 AM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

What I learned from this experiment is that going this far in the other direction for powerful characters like WW, Supergirl and Powergirl seems to diminish the level of confidence they project.

I don't think this is a function of covering up per se as it is a function of the specific outfits he chose for them. That Wonder Woman looks kind of...not great. I'm not trying to shit-talk his art but there are a lot of poor decisions being made there that detract from the visual presentation of the character.

The khakis just don't make sense. They might if she were going with a Western theme but she's not. Also, the combination of drapery and boot design make her look like her upper body is huge, with long arms, and her lower body has short, stubby little legs.

Also I have no idea what the hell is going on with that midsection. I wouldn't project much confidence either if I were wearing a mess like that.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:41 AM on April 3, 2013

I like most of them, but what he did to Peej and WW are terrible.
posted by Sternmeyer at 7:44 AM on April 3, 2013

Where's Mom Jean Gray?
posted by condour75 at 7:50 AM on April 3, 2013 [11 favorites]

Interestingly, the only one of these that really read wrong to me was Vampirella, who I just think of as a cheesecake character, so it kind of goes against the grain to cover her up. A bit like if one of these had been a buttoned down version of Little Annie Fanny. You could do it, but it is getting away from the essence of the character. Maybe there's a more straightforward heroic side of Vampirella that I'm not familiar with...

Oh, and WW's pants, yeah. The rest work great though.
posted by Lentrohamsanin at 7:52 AM on April 3, 2013

The most realistic super hero wardrobe would mimic what soldiers and performance nerds wear.

I dunno, when you are invulnerable, I imagine you are tougher than any clothing you are likely to have, so you could just go with whatever you feel comfortable wearing. Low heels (and good treads) seem a must if you are going to be throwing cars around or running on gravel or sand or whatever (although, to be fair, most superheroes are drawn with smooth soled boots, which seems insane -- try to stop a runaway locomotive with no tread!).
posted by GenjiandProust at 7:53 AM on April 3, 2013 [2 favorites]

GenjiandProust: Now, I may fail as a geek, in that I don't actually like superhero comics much, but um, doesn't Supergirl you know, fly? Like, couldn't she just fly everywhere?

WHY DOES SHE EVER WALK IN COSTUME?
posted by Canageek at 7:55 AM on April 3, 2013

I only recognise only one* of them (not because they are unrecognisable I guess, I just don't know many superheroes) and I don't see any 'palpable and manufactured modesty' or 'desperate attempt[s] to pile on more layers', to be honest. They just look like run of the mill, dime a dozen anime characters. Although I do like the ninja woman.

* Supergirl
posted by Skyanth at 8:01 AM on April 3, 2013

Except that's Black Canary.

Now that you mention it, I see the choker. I wasn't familiar with her new, purple, costume.

Huh.

It still looks like a good Huntress costume to me.
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 8:02 AM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

FAMOUS MONSTER: Also, the combination of drapery and boot design make her look like her upper body is huge, with long arms, and her lower body has short, stubby little legs.

That's absolutely true. It isn't just that he covered up the legs, but the way he did it, breaking up the vertical lines, makes her look stumpy.
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 8:08 AM on April 3, 2013

Metafilter: some sort of oversized pants fetish.
posted by arcticseal at 8:10 AM on April 3, 2013 [4 favorites]

Was I the only one who liked this earlier makeover (2nd image) for Wonder Woman a couple of years ago? I agree that this one is doofy, especially the pants/boots.
posted by taz at 8:19 AM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

The Black Canary one is probably the least impressive, if only because it mimics designs Canary has been wearing since the Birds of Prey series. Though her origins in the forties are clearly cheesecake, she's actually been drawn in full-body costumes since the mid-eighties (the "Karate Kid" costume, though I think it owes more to Olivia Newton-John than Ralph Macchio). She's been drawn since in both the 1940s fishnets, and the Birds of Prey jumpsuit.

There is an exhaustive catalogue of her costume variants here.
posted by bonehead at 8:24 AM on April 3, 2013

DC ladies in sweaters.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:26 AM on April 3, 2013 [9 favorites]

I vastly prefer the super-Casual versions. Secret Infidelities are too 20th century, unless your abilities are inherently suit-entwined, you should be able to save the world in a Forever 21 top with a flannel overcoat cause it gets cold up there.
posted by The Whelk at 8:30 AM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

I really like his Power Girl though. She's been subject of much (scans daily) re-design (project rooftop and again), but this is a really great take on her.
posted by bonehead at 8:31 AM on April 3, 2013

That second project rooftop link is a great costume.
posted by MartinWisse at 8:33 AM on April 3, 2013 [2 favorites]

The trendy superheroine wears plastic this time of year.
posted by delfin at 8:37 AM on April 3, 2013 [2 favorites]

I see the criticism with the designs, especially with Wonder Woman, as not being thematically consistent. My favorite redesign ever is the Project Rooftop Fantastic Four winner which redesigned them as a SUPER SCIENCE team and did wonders for erasing the horrible mid-90s hooker outfit that Susan Storm wore from my mind.
posted by Therapeutic Amputations at 8:39 AM on April 3, 2013

More clothing is more respectful to every female hero, except Wonder Woman. Weren't classical Amazons barely-clothed female berserkers?
posted by spaltavian at 8:40 AM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

The framing of the post is a little off: as a boy in the early seventies watching syndicated TV reruns, I could attest that "not showing much skin" is a different thing from "not revealing."
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:41 AM on April 3, 2013 [2 favorites]

I always find the retort of "now do the men!" to this sort of thing puzzling, as the standard male superhero is a painted-on bodysuit, showing every crease around every bulging muscle as well. I mean, superman is a guy in blue body paint wearing a speedo.
posted by tylerkaraszewski at 8:46 AM on April 3, 2013 [5 favorites]

I think my main issue with Wonder Woman's trousers is that they're khaki, which does not go well with the blue-red-gold of the rest of the outfit.
posted by Karmakaze at 8:46 AM on April 3, 2013

Not to mention that they're trousers, when the rest of the outfit is Grecian plate. You'd expect at least leather.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 8:47 AM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

The most realistic super hero wardrobe....

Um-

/draws saber

Step away from the thread, and you won't get hurt.
posted by Celsius1414 at 8:49 AM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

Why not just redraw them wearing burqas?
posted by crayz at 8:50 AM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

I've long been fond of Wonder Woman's New Frontiers armor. That's not a skirt, it's Roman legion style pteruges.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 8:53 AM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

Why not just redraw them wearing burqas?

Yes, only a fundamentalist would draw a ninja in full body armor/camo rather than a swimsuit
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 8:55 AM on April 3, 2013 [26 favorites]

Why not just redraw them wearing burqas?

Because they aren't Muslim? Because none of the characters live in a society that imposes that kind of restriction women's dress? Because modern women in the cultures that the characters in question are taken from wear clothes similar to those depicted in the link, whereas they don't wear burqas (or revealing spandex outfits)?
posted by jedicus at 8:56 AM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

Why not just redraw them wearing burqas?

From another post on the artist's tumblr: "...that’s not the point at all. This isn’t about MODESTY, MORALS, SHAME, or anything like that. How are people missing all these posts? And if pants seem weird to you maybe you need to take a hard look at why you think that way." (links to additional explanation in the original)
posted by Nonsteroidal Anti-Inflammatory Drug at 9:00 AM on April 3, 2013 [6 favorites]

I love the attempt, even if I'm not in love with the execution. The guy's not a fashion designer after all.
posted by windykites at 9:07 AM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

For me, there are several reasons to get away from the drawn-on spandex look as well as the exposed skin look. Not only does it contribute to the oversexualization of female characters, but it's also impractical and unrealistic. Why does that matter in a world full of unrealistic things? Because it's inconsistent, it's bad characterization, and it's bad writing.

In the real world, of the many armed forces that employ women in combat roles, how many of their uniforms feature, for example, exposed midriffs? I'm pretty sure the answer is none. Women in dangerous and physically demanding occupations do not expose a lot of skin, just as men in those occupations don't.

So if a female character is, like most people, practically-minded in most aspects of her life (as opposed to showy or vain), then the burden is on the writer to explain why she would choose to wear extremely impractical clothing in a dangerous and physically demanding situation. Or to explain why she would put up with being handed such a costume while the men in the group get more practical outfits. To do otherwise is inconsistent, and it imposes this weird anti-feminist blindspot on the character, as though she either can't see the absurdity of her situation or feels powerless to say or do anything about it. And for that matter it imposes the same blindspot on everyone else involved, making male characters into tacit misogynists.

Are we really supposed to believe that characters in a 21st setting would somehow completely fail to have this discussion about costumes, objectification, and feminism that has been ongoing in the real world for decades now?
posted by jedicus at 9:07 AM on April 3, 2013 [17 favorites]

These are absurd, frankly. They all look like they've taken the veil. If Superman has to bear the indignity of underpants over tights, and Dr Manhattan etc, then why wrap Wonderwoman in unglamorous khakis?

No, the problem is not coverage, it's body shape and foundation garments. Give me scantily clad female supes who look like they can engage in some serious derring-do, like this, or this.
posted by Elizabeth the Thirteenth at 9:09 AM on April 3, 2013 [5 favorites]

And if pants seem weird to you maybe you need to take a hard look at why you think that way.

I thought mefites were required to think pants are weird!
posted by rtha at 9:18 AM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

Now addressing the art specifically: a big advantage of more ordinary clothing (as opposed to the painted-on look), is that it gives the artist more flexibility. Once a character's anatomy has been established, all painted-on outfits look more or less the same, except for color scheme and accessories (belt pouches!). Clothes are more versatile, and they give the artist a chance to show off their understanding of fabric and drapery, which can lead to some really nice results.

With regard to Superman: his underpants-over-tights look came from the costume of circus strongmen of the 1930s. The cultural reference that Joe Shuster was making is basically completely lost now. I think we can safely break with that convention.

Give me scantily clad female supes who look like they can engage in some serious derring-do, like this, or this.

Those women are wearing specialty clothing for a very particular purpose in a single environment. The runner, for example, needs a garment that is as light-weight as possible. No doubt some runners would run nude if it were allowed, just to eliminate those last few grams. All other considerations (e.g. protection from the elements, protection from harm, storage, identity concealment) aren't just secondary, they are completely disregarded. That won't do for a superhero, who needs something much more versatile. The end result is that—with the possible exception of a nigh-invulnerable character like Supergirl—they're going to pick something much closer to what military forces use.

Just to pick one obvious counter-point: It would be absurd for a character like Black Canary to wear something like that runner's outfit at night or even during the day for several months of the year in Gotham. She would die of hypothermia.
posted by jedicus at 9:26 AM on April 3, 2013 [5 favorites]

Where's Mom Jean Gray?

Didn't you see her? She's the one wearing mom jeans. Not particularly sexy, but conceals the curves and are very functional.
posted by KokuRyu at 9:27 AM on April 3, 2013

I think these are great, and don't look artificially modest. I like that some of them are more form-fitting than others.
posted by snorkmaiden at 9:29 AM on April 3, 2013

The runner, for example, needs a garment that is as light-weight as possible. No doubt some runners would run nude if it were allowed, just to eliminate those last few grams.

They would eliminate a few grams, but pick up a lot more wind resistance if you know what I mean And I Think You Do.
posted by delfin at 9:33 AM on April 3, 2013 [4 favorites]

I bought a subscription to the Marvel Universe back-issue smorgasbord recently (can you write off purchases made for blog research? I hope so) and have been binging on some of the late aughts comics I missed the first time around. I pretty much went through all of Fraction's Invincible Iron Man yesterday.

Anyways, I tore through a big chunk of Fraction's Iron Man yesterday and it seems like SHIELD has a pretty good approach to uniforms: You all get the same stretchy jumpsuit (example from the Marvel MMO, but you get the point). This includes characters who might not be the most flattered by such a tight/stretchy outfit. There was at least one minor character in the Dark Reign bit that was a bit pudgy, but he was wearing the same thing everyone else is.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 9:34 AM on April 3, 2013

Renoroc: How about one where the male superheroes are drawn with breasts?

See Rob Liefield's entire oeuvre.
posted by IAmBroom at 9:34 AM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

The skin tight costume is old-school for both men and women superheroes. However, the real problem is, skin tight costumes (and showing skin) on women become problematic for female characters because they are traditionally objectified. That and comics have always been traditionally created, designed, and drawn by men who may have been appealing to their own concepts of the "ideal" woman. I think, however, we give most comic creators too little credit in this regard.

Certainly the BIGGER picture has to do with the fact that there is a lack of balance between personality and visual appeal in female characters as they are written and drawn, so much that some just seem to be vapid eye candy. That is when they become visual objects. Honestly though, it REALLY depends on the writer that is assigned to the character at the time, and I think a lot of people overlook this, either intentionally or otherwise. I say that, having been very critical of female characters in American comics, but not having read them faithfully.

So there is a huge conundrum with balancing out women superheroes this way. Let's just assume that all superheroes are invulnerable, meaning they don't need clothes or armor to protect them from harm (most don't, they are superheroes after all). To have "realistic" women means that there will be some that want to cover themselves up conservatively, those that want to flaunt as much flesh as possible without being naked, and those that enjoy a mix depending on their age or whim or time of year or whatever other factors influence clothing choice, just like in most societies where women are free to do as they please. This means they also feel pressures from society like any woman, to cover up or to show skin, to be proud of their bodies or to hate them. Swinging toward one dramatic end of the spectrum (no flesh) seems to rob these characters of any means of expression, whether it is sexual or otherwise.

What needs to happen is a shift where women superheroes have diverse enough personalities that they represent the modern women rather than an "ideal". But then, most male super heroes are also the ideal in terms of physique and even personality. Again, the problem is not the way they are DRAWN so much as the objectification of women in general, which comes from a lack of variety and balance of personality, salience, and identity expression, through clothes or otherwise.

I agree with the lack of realism comments only as it pertains to female characters that are NOT superheroes, particularly those that are in combat situations often (i.e. most fantasy novels, RPGS, etc.) I find it, well, stupid that a female warrior would have flesh exposed if she is going into a battle with swords, axes, lazers, beasts, etc. That is when the costume design choice is very obvious. Otherwise, they are superheroes...they don't NEED armor, unless they do. They tend not to.

There may also be a bit of backlash at the inevitable fetishizing of a character simply because she is female. Even if a character becomes "average" in physique and wears a full-suit to fight crime or is even downright unattractive by society's standards, some people are still going to think of her as a sexual creature. It is inevitable and quite human. I think a lot of people who participate in this sort of debate blur the lines between sexualization and objectification to the point where the two are indistinguishable, whereas one is harmful and the other isn't.

Also, yeah, those pants Wonder Woman is donning are pretty wretched. Christ.
posted by Young Kullervo at 9:44 AM on April 3, 2013 [4 favorites]

And if pants seem weird to you maybe you need to take a hard look at why you think that way.

If fashionable clothes that *fit* seem weird to the artist, maybe he needs to take a hard look at why he thinks that way. There are infinite steps between spandex and baggy track suits.
posted by Celsius1414 at 9:48 AM on April 3, 2013 [2 favorites]

Except for Zatanna's untucked shirt, I love 'em. Wonder Woman's trousers read more like old-timey military or riding pants than casual khakis to me.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 9:49 AM on April 3, 2013

The Wonder Woman one seems like a weird hybrid between Wonder Woman and movie Captain America. I think it's the worst of the lot. I kinda liked the Zatana one.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 9:49 AM on April 3, 2013

The pants are bad, but that six-pack girdle is positively ghastly. I realize I already said that but I am just stunned by it.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 9:50 AM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

For Wonder Woman, I'll settle for any redesign where she's not wearing a hard metal belt with big sharp pointy edges poking up into her gut and down into her groin that makes bending at the waist look impossible. (A problem that even Windsford's redesign doesn't fix.)
posted by straight at 9:58 AM on April 3, 2013 [4 favorites]

I appreciate what the project is trying to address, but the results aren't that great. For example, Supergirl's costume looks dumpy and uncomfortable. Superheroines with ridiculously proportioned bodies and Frederick's of Hollwood-style costumes are a problem, but you can't fix that by putting everyone in potato sacks and JNCOs.

Even just from a character design standpoint, artists should exploit a wider variety of body shapes, better posing, and costumes that actually FIT - costumes that fit the body, as well as the character and what the character is supposed to be doing all day.

Olympic athletes, Gina Carano from Haywire, the Bride from Kill Bill, and ninjas in general all offer better examples for how to dress female superheroes. Their clothes are fitted, and in a way that basically make sense. Their clothes are attractive, but not in a pr0n-y way.

Hell, even look at Olivia Dunham in Fringe. She wears suits that fit. She looks good, but not in a creepy male fanservice kind of way. Her casual clothes also basically make sense, e.g. leather jacket, T-shirt, and jeans. Even when she's in The Tank from first season, underwater, her costuming does not seem exploitative or leering.

Obviously, superheroes are in a different kind of universe, but there's a lesson here.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:58 AM on April 3, 2013 [2 favorites]

I like the Zatanna one too. I can see a costume change like that actually signify a personality change for her, though.

Also, am I the only one who thinks it makes her look a bit like a female regeneration of the Doctor?
posted by tyllwin at 10:04 AM on April 3, 2013

Military clothing with all its many handholds may not be the best thing when fighting someone with super strength.

I always figured the uniforms were some blend of kevlar/nomex style and it had to be skin tight to fit under your day clothes comfortably.

I wouldn't want to go fight crime in my snowboarding gear. ugh.
posted by psycho-alchemy at 10:07 AM on April 3, 2013 [2 favorites]

Supergirl's outfit just makes me think cami-secret for some reason.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZFY2I-EWQY
posted by fnerg at 10:10 AM on April 3, 2013

I'm not getting "potato sack" from the three designs that look more like leggings to me. Electra's pants seem to be fairly well fitted above the knee.

But now I'm noticing WW's footwear problems.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 10:11 AM on April 3, 2013

I wish comics publishers would cut it the hell out with the women-all-scantily-clad-all-the-time thing, but I wasn't wild about most of these.

Didn't like turning Zatanna's coat-with-tails into a trenchcoat -- I'd have rather just seen her wear a tux.

Supergirl's outfit is baggy and weird.

Psylocke's looks OK, I guess, but I don't know the character or what she normally looks like.

Wonder Woman looks terrible, like she went shopping at the superhero thrift store and put on three different outfits at once.

Power Girl's is pretty good. So is Elektra. In both cases, they're pretty much their normal outfits with an under-layer covering the bare skin. I don't think this is a coincidence.

I don't care enough about Vampirella to have an opinion...

Black Canary's a motorcyclist, but she's also a martial artist. I can't see her leaving the kevlar pants on when she's off the bike.
posted by Zed at 10:16 AM on April 3, 2013

Some of these are okay, but there's a few where, man, you can just tell the inspiration was coming from a place of "let's cover you up," not "let's put you in a dignified but awesome-looking outfit."
posted by prize bull octorok at 10:16 AM on April 3, 2013 [2 favorites]

In John Byrne's 80's reboot of Superman, he decided that Superman's invulnerability extends out to include skin-tight clothing, which I thought was a great idea, simultaneously creating a reason for his costume, dispensing of the whole issue of super-strong Kryptonian fabrics, and allowing for dramatic scenes where a violent explosion can shred Superman's cape without leaving him naked.

And given that Superman is usually the "first" popular public superhero, you can maybe justify other skin-tight costumes as heroes copying Superman without really knowing why he wears a skin-tight outfit.
posted by straight at 10:17 AM on April 3, 2013 [2 favorites]

I can't see her leaving the kevlar pants on when she's off the bike.

I thought they were chainsaw chaps, and just figured she'd been out getting wood for the winter of something.
posted by bonehead at 10:29 AM on April 3, 2013

Why Wonder Woman Should Carry a Scrunchie Around
posted by homunculus at 10:32 AM on April 3, 2013 [8 favorites]

Maybe next, he can do the male superheros in the usual three square inches of painted-on latex the females are usually "dressed" in.

If I don't get pants, nobody gets pants.
posted by homunculus at 10:33 AM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

Male superheroes wear skin-tight outfits that emphasize their strength and physique, but there are visual cues in female outfits that make them more seductive, sexy, tempting, &c. Female costumes are almost 100% completely designed to prompt erections, most of the time. They show off breasts and hip-to-waist ratios, not muscularity. I severely doubt male costumes (or poses/contortions) are designed to create the same arousal in straight women-- if they are, they're failing pretty badly.

I will say that I think the skin-tight look is important to the genre and I prefer it, but it's possible to put a female superhero in a latex-looking costume that isn't overtly seductive. Also, I'm not in love with most of these designs, but none of these costumes are actually weird. If they were on a male superhero, no one would be saying "not confident!" or "no fun!" so whatever. This is purely your own bias about what makes women look good. It's been shown that makeup (with all of its sex appeal) lends to the illusion that a woman is "more confident" in the workplace; this is the same dynamic at play. It would be nice for artists to make female superheroes look cool and strong and female, instead of making them as pornographic as possible to project "confidence." A major part of me thinks this "confidence" is 100% about the male gaze and what attracts it, and so I can't really get behind it as legitimate empowerment for superheroes or the women who read superhero comics.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:33 AM on April 3, 2013 [4 favorites]

I guess what I want to say is that there's no reason a woman has to be extra-sexy to be a superhero-- women are already sexy, straight men want to have sex with them. Voila.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:34 AM on April 3, 2013

I tend to do something similar when painting D&D miniatures, since I play a lot of female characters. Fighters will be wearing a doublet under their armor, or my rogue might sensibly have bare arms but she's wearing tights. And the only difference is a coat of paint.
posted by Gelatin at 10:42 AM on April 3, 2013

Those women are wearing specialty clothing for a very particular purpose in a single environment.

Like engaging in extreme physical activity at peak performance? I'm certainly no superhero, but when I'm playing sports, I want to wear skin tight supportive clothing. It's got nothing to do with looking hot, and everything to do with comfort and mobility.

The point I'm trying to make is that if you want to create some great lady superheroes, maybe you should begin by looking at how physically powerful female sports stars choose to present themselves, rather than taking some tired archetypes and covering them up in frumpy clothing.
posted by Elizabeth the Thirteenth at 10:43 AM on April 3, 2013 [5 favorites]

Depends on the sport. A track star is going to want minimum weight and maximum streamlining. A basketball player focuses on freedom of movement. Somebody in a full-contact sport needs to balance movement with protection. Given that superhero comics tend to emphasize the "beating the shit out of each other" part, I'd expect that last one to get the most weight.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:47 AM on April 3, 2013

Buttless chaps would be a good mix of sexy + functionality
posted by KokuRyu at 10:53 AM on April 3, 2013

Given that superhero comics tend to emphasize the "beating the shit out of each other" part, I'd expect that last one to get the most weight.

You're talking about this sort of protective clothing, right?
posted by Elizabeth the Thirteenth at 10:53 AM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

You're talking about this sort of protective clothing, right?

I'm assuming the supervillains don't adhere to Marquis of Queensbury rules.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:58 AM on April 3, 2013

Now I totally want to see the Marquess of Queensberry as a supervillain.
posted by Zed at 11:00 AM on April 3, 2013 [2 favorites]

If he teamed up with Turner D. Century they'd be unstoppable.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 11:03 AM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

Some of these are okay, but there's a few where, man, you can just tell the inspiration was coming from a place of "let's cover you up," not "let's put you in a dignified but awesome-looking outfit."

Yeah, a common failing with these sort of exercises. The problem is that mainstream superhero comics have become so pornified in the past two decades that the first instinct of anybody uncomfortable with this is to cover up and go for supposedly practical rather than glamourous costumes.

But if you look at older comics, e.g. this George Perez New Teen Titans/Outsiders spread you can see it's possible to have a range of good looking costumes, including sexy ones, without being overtly porny.
posted by MartinWisse at 11:11 AM on April 3, 2013

I'm assuming the supervillains don't adhere to Marquis of Queensbury rules.

But heroes do.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 11:15 AM on April 3, 2013

The first time I saw this -- on the eschergirls tumblr -- I kind of recoiled, a bit. Some people object to the ubiquitous over-sexualization of female characters in comics based on "modesty," which has never sat well with me. I think that there is an essential distinction between revealing clothing and being a sexual object.

Or, to give an example.

Put Supergirl in Superman's costume. Write her character with depth and personality, and draw her in poses that are realistic for the character within the bounds of the genre. She will still be wearing a revealing costume, but insisting that she cover up is, IMO, extremely problematic. It's not her female body that's the problem.

What really happens is that characters like Supergirl get inexplicable boob windows and frilly belt skirts, aren't as well-developed as the male characters, and are drawn in extremely sexual, gender-coded poses. It's still not the female body that's the problem, it's that the female body exists as eye-candy -- not as something that the female person is living inside.

HOWEVER.

Then I read the artist's description of the project. If I take it at face value, the artist isn't saying that this is what female characters should look like. It's an attempt to redesign the characters while removing the trope of the skin-tight revealing superhero costume. Maybe some of the motivation was to do something contrary to the over-sexualized costumes, but I don't get that the artist is saying that covering them up in "full clothing" is the only right way to deal with this (or even a) way. It's been reposted by other who seem to think it's a "fix-it" project, but I think we shouldn't put words in the artist's mouth here.

I would like to see this done for male superheroes too.
posted by Kutsuwamushi at 11:31 AM on April 3, 2013 [5 favorites]

Woman's Olympic Taekwando.
posted by bonehead at 11:37 AM on April 3, 2013 [4 favorites]

He did that with the "Casual Spidey" pic referenced upthread. Tho, an open hoodie is probably not tremendously practical to someone who crawls on walls upside down and swings through the air at automobile speeds.
posted by Slap*Happy at 11:37 AM on April 3, 2013

Like engaging in extreme physical activity at peak performance? I'm certainly no superhero, but when I'm playing sports, I want to wear skin tight supportive clothing. It's got nothing to do with looking hot, and everything to do with comfort and mobility.

You keep using ultra-specialized Olympic athletics as examples, but most of those sports a) do not put the athletes in actual life-threatening danger b) do not require or even allow the athlete to carry substantial equipment c) do not require or allow the athlete to conceal their identity d) do not require or typically allow the athlete to adopt a highly personalized appearance discernible from a distance. I could go on.

The much better analogy is women's combat uniforms. Yes, as a base layer there will probably be a form-fitting moisture-wicking layer for comfort. But there will be other layers to minimize exposed skin, provide for protection from the elements, provide for protection from attack, provide for storage of equipment, hide the wearer's face (if appropriate), and provide adequate surface area for the identity that the wearer wants to project (e.g. "I am a member of the XYZ military" or "I am a scary special ops person").
posted by jedicus at 11:52 AM on April 3, 2013 [5 favorites]

Psylocke is my favorite superheroine for reasons, and I can get behind the gray bodysuit, but the purple stripes just to keep the spirit of the costume isn't working for me. The purple stripes/random scraps of thigh and arm fabric has always been weird.

I think the costumes are less suspect than the outrageous proportions used to draw these characters. Most superheroines would be in constant states of lower back pain with the size of their breasts (especially with those costumes that don't offer supportive bras), have unrealistically tiny waists, and legs that account for 2/3 of their height. Their midsections are usually too short to possibly contain an entire set of ribs, not to mention the rest of their internal organs. I'm always fascinated to see women cosplay Psylocke, especially, because it can be attempted . . . but it can't be done. Instead of putting them in a sprinter's Olympic outfit, consider if these women were drawn with Olympic runners' bodies.
posted by weeyin at 11:55 AM on April 3, 2013 [2 favorites]

How did we get this far without any mention of the Hawkeye Initiative? If you want to see a male hero treated the way female heroes are.Though that is more about the posing than strictly the costuming.

There are lots of artists online who have done more practical hero/heroine redesigns; I believe these Dresden Codak versions were on Metafilter not long ago. I think they handle the same issues much better.
posted by emjaybee at 12:00 PM on April 3, 2013 [7 favorites]

There was also a neat Dresden Codak thing on preconceived notions of body types for super-characters.
posted by The Whelk at 12:02 PM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

I think Alan Moore and Gene Ha nailed it with Top 10, which had women in everything from nude-but-for-color eye candy (leading to a minor sub-plot) to middle-aged detectives in nuclear body armor. Peregrine and Jack Phantom round out the traditional costumes, while Toy Box and Synesthesia represent the plainclothes look.
posted by CBrachyrhynchos at 12:31 PM on April 3, 2013 [4 favorites]

Honestly, it creeps me out that female heroes run from practical/homely to sexy, while male heroes run from awesome (in the literal sense) musculature to half human, half... not even recognizably human. There's still a reinforcement that men run the gamut in terms of what they can do and be (while they may incidentally resemble an attractive humanoid male form at some point), while women exist on a continuum of sexy to not-sexy, even when they do happen to be half-machine or half-beast or whatever. Like there's this fundamental belief that can't be changed that women fundamentally are sexual ornamentation, whereas men are not. It's radical to show a woman who is not conventionally sexualized in a major role. That should be kind of disgusting to everyone.
posted by stoneandstar at 12:45 PM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

This (more here) is an invaluable reference for the wide variety of body types of Olympic athletes in different events.
posted by Zed at 12:48 PM on April 3, 2013 [2 favorites]

weeyin said: I think the costumes are less suspect than the outrageous proportions used to draw these characters. ...Instead of putting them in a sprinter's Olympic outfit, consider if these women were drawn with Olympic runners' bodies

This, this, a thousand times this. 10% body fat + 40DD breasts = holy puerile penis-pandering plastic pornification Batman!
posted by SinAesthetic at 12:49 PM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

I like the idea, but the guy's no fashion designer. Some of the stuff put together is just wrong fashion wise.
posted by _paegan_ at 1:01 PM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

I'm guessing that when the supervillains come to a dead stop to stare in disbelief and ask themselves is she...is she wearing KHAKIS!? it makes it easier to snare them with your magic lariat.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:09 PM on April 3, 2013 [2 favorites]

After reading Taz’s WW link, I now want Joss Whedon to do a Wonder Woman movie. With Gina Torres as WW.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 2:48 PM on April 3, 2013

Apparently part of the issue with Whedon's WW treatment was that he wanted Diana to be Buffy-aged.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:59 PM on April 3, 2013

Just found a Wonder Woman costume retrospective (only up to 2008, so not including the redesign taz linked to.)

While it retains some of the usual problems, I mostly like the top half of George Perez' Wonder Woman armor, so much so that I mostly think some kind of light armor is the way to go.
posted by Zed at 3:04 PM on April 3, 2013

If I were a petty criminal in Marvel's New York, I'd say I'd gotten beaten and tied up by a blue-and-red spandex blur, even if it was really some kid in a hoodie.

This is exactly how Smallville handled Superboy, right down to calling him 'the Red and Blue Blur'.
posted by Charlemagne In Sweatpants at 3:26 PM on April 3, 2013

This, this, a thousand times this. 10% body fat + 40DD breasts = holy puerile penis-pandering plastic pornification Batman!

Yeah, it's gratuitous and hard to even analogize the male equivalent. Like having superheros with Schwarzenegger bodies and smooth baby-fat boy faces or something, cause chicks were into that.
posted by crayz at 4:34 PM on April 3, 2013

Because things that turn you on are bad, and you should feel bad for them. Especially when they are lines on paper.

I know that wasn't the artist's intent, he specifically says this wasn't some big political point he was trying to make. But that's how a lot of people are taking it, and embracing it. I get that the sexualization of superheroines is problematic, and sometimes taken to laughable extremes. But still, it's worth bearing in mind: lines on paper, providing stroke material for lonesome nerds.

I'm not even really into superheroes. But I grew up wanting to be Lynda Carter as Wonder Woman, and the frumpy outfit WW is sporting here may be an improvement on the classic one in terms of practicality, but it doesn't begin to compare in terms of Sexy Awesome. (And come to think of it, Batman's outfit would be damn impractical too, with the cape getting caught on stuff and the cowl slipping over his eyes during a fight. Superheroes are mostly silly, fun, wish-fulfillment constructs, and some of them are supposed to be sexy too.)
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:54 PM on April 3, 2013

I've always liked the way the X-Men handle costumes. Kind of a mix of athletic/martial arts spandex with combat gear, with similar but not uniform branding, customizable to fit different characters' mutations, skills, equipment needs, or personal need for flair.*

*(and of course special exceptions are made for seniority, psychic or time travel trauma)

I would love to see more heroes rendered realistically (I imagine most of them would be realistically athletic but there's still a lot of room for realistically sexy, realistically average, and realistically flawed), and figure I'm more likely to see it within a team dynamic than with anyone iconic enough to carry their own books, like most of the characters here.
posted by elr at 4:54 PM on April 3, 2013

But still, it's worth bearing in mind: lines on paper, providing stroke material for lonesome nerds.

Hey, nothing wrong with getting off. The general complaint about the pervasive pornification of mainstream superhero comics is that it's not a medium that postures itself as pornography—that it is in fact a medium that is has for decades been trying increasingly to establish some credibility as respectable fiction—and yet manages to resort to porny tropes in large swaths of its visual output.

If you are aspiring specifically to be jackoff material, more power to you and let your jerkrag flag fly; if you're not, then try and figure out what the hell has gone so wrong that that's what people end up feeling like they're having those vibes broadcast at them anyway.

There's room enough in the world for porn and not-porn both. Superhero comics overwhelmingly seem to want to be not-porn, but a lot of the folks drawing 'em are a bit shit at figuring out how or maybe understanding why it's a point of confusion or a source of dispiriting frustration for fans. And as you say, this guy's artist statement isn't even about that, and yet somehow the right of cape comics to be jackoff fodder needs defending anyway.
posted by cortex at 5:03 PM on April 3, 2013 [9 favorites]

cortex's comment needs to be multi-faved. There's a reason why Watchmen (which, among many, many other things, took on this very subject via the characters of Nite Owl and Silk Spectre, rather directly) is still in print more than a quarter-century after its original publication, and why its promise for the superhero genre has remained largely unfulfilled, nowhere so obviously as in the Before Watchmen prequel series, which in its execution has proven that Alan Moore's concerns about its rationale and outcome were completely justified.
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:22 PM on April 3, 2013

I am a big comics nerd, but I'm a nerd for artists like R. Crumb and Chris Ware. I've never taken superheroes very seriously, although I've certainly been impressed by some stuff like Watchmen. I guess to me superheroes are mostly kind of silly, and the silliness (and sexiness) is part of the appeal. I see people busting a brisket over a character like Power Girl, and it's kind of baffling to me. She looks hot in that outfit, the nerd boys love her, and that seems like enough of a justification for her to exist. She's not real. There is no flesh and blood actress humiliating herself for the sake of fan lust. She's somebody's wish-fulfillment fantasy, like every other superhero. If you despise her, don't read her books. There are (presumably) superhero books out there with super women running around in non-revealing outfits.

"somehow the right of cape comics to be jackoff fodder needs defending anyway."

Indeed it does. I get awfully tired of hearing people say that other people are wrong for getting turned on by things. A lot of people really like to get outraged about other people's fantasies. Sex fantasies are creepy and embarrassing, if you're doing them right.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:40 PM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

"Not every piece of art or literature needs to be about sex" =/= "Sex is bad."
posted by The Underpants Monster at 5:54 PM on April 3, 2013

I'd really like the ever-shrinking comics industry to stop shooting itself in the foot by loudly broadcasting a "not for you" message to half its potential readership.
posted by Zed at 5:58 PM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

I think it's interesting UH that you say on one hand that you don't care about comics and on the other that everyone is making too much fuss.

It's fine that you don't care for superheroes. But to a lot of people, they matter, so much that there are dozens of conventions and movies making billions of dollars based on superheroes.

Whether you care or not, they are large parts of our culture, and are obviously very important to lots of people. Many of them kids and young people. And many of those girls.

So when a girl who loves dreaming about having superpowers can only see superheroines who are a) never as strong as men b) prone to getting raped/killed/disfigured c) dress and pose in extremely ridiculous pornified ways in the comics they are in...it's a problem.

I'm going to come right out and say that it hurts girls to have that be all there is. Porn is out there and I don't believe in taking it away. But to have some of the Very Important Stories in our culture portray men as people and women as sex toys is a problem. It's a problem when the women in movies are helpless and stupid. It's a problem when the women on TV shows are naggy and dull minders of their husbands. It's a problem when the stories we tell make women always always Less Than.

It really does matter. It's really not about shaming people for loving sex or porn.

There is a whole lot of literature and excellent blog writing on this topic. You really should read some of it. Tropes v. Women, a web series featured here on Mefi, is one place to start. and she links to others. This episode talks specifically about comics.
posted by emjaybee at 6:15 PM on April 3, 2013 [6 favorites]

But still, it's worth bearing in mind: lines on paper, providing stroke material for lonesome nerds.

But that's not their purpose, and lonely nerds who have literally no other options for masturbatory material are far from the only audience. Why must it be that portion of the audience that must shuffle off to find the superhero comix where the women get to wear a little more than strips of cloth or leather? (Do those exist? I don't know. If so, do they have the same kind of cultural resonance as the ones these characters inhabit?)
posted by rtha at 6:19 PM on April 3, 2013

There are (presumably) superhero books out there with super women running around in non-revealing outfits.

If this were true, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
posted by straight at 6:28 PM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

It is true, but they're hard to come by and tend not to last. Batwoman is the most prominent one, and the Birds of Prey tend to alternate between cheesecake and reasonable depending on the artist.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 6:43 PM on April 3, 2013

Emjaybe, I said I am a comics nerd. Just not for superhero comics, very much.

"There is a whole lot of literature and excellent blog writing on this topic. You really should read some of it."

The reason why I get so exhausted with this stuff is because I have read plenty about it, and argued plenty about it. Eventually we usually hit that wall where the other side is basically saying, "Well, it offends me that people are aroused by this stuff, and they need to stop it." They dress it up in fancier language, the arguments can be quite a bit more complex than that... But at the core of it, that's the point we keep disagreeing about.

"Not every piece of art or literature needs to be about sex" =/= "Sex is bad."

"Not every piece of art or literature needs to be about sex" all too often = "this art that is getting other people off needs to go away because I don't like it."

Again, we may hit an impasse here because I just don't take superheros as seriously as some of you. That's not me being a snob. I'm not against superheros, they've just never been my particular geek obsession. (I have many others.) So we're expecting different things from superhero comics, and I'll confess that I have no idea what's really going on with superhero comics these days. If EVERY book is literally wall-to-wall cheesecake and there are no capable, intelligent superheroines, I will agree that this is indeed a problem.

(But if loving Wonder Woman's original outfit is a sin, let me burn in hell with the sinners.)
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:09 PM on April 3, 2013

If EVERY book is literally wall-to-wall cheesecake and there are no capable, intelligent superheroines, I will agree that this is indeed a problem.

That's the bar for there being a problem? If the cheesecake in one book isn't literally wall-to-wall or one book has a capable, intelligent superheroine, then there's no problem?
posted by Zed at 7:18 PM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

Zed, sorry if I confused you with my mild hyperbole and capital letters. Obviously I don't think women in the genre should be nothing but bimbos. But (yet again) I don't take the genre as seriously as some people, and if most of the women in it are depicted in a highly sexualized manner, that doesn't strike me as a huge problem. People getting really upset about it kind of sound like people crabbing about the unrealistic geopolitics of Moonraker or something. The men are depicted quite unrealistically too (in a very different way) and this material caters to a small audience. If every woman on every movie or TV show was falling out of her top, that would be very different.

I am not trying to piss anybody off or start flamewars. But I have had these conversations too many times, about too many works of art. If something really offends you, you are free to not read it. If you want to see intelligent, capable heroines, superhero comics may not be the best place to look for them. Perhaps you should look across the aisle, and check out Love and Rockets..? (Although, maybe not. If you're the type to get really pissed off about the sexualization of superheroines, there's a fair chance you'd hate Love and Rockets just because Luba's tits are so big.)
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:39 PM on April 3, 2013

A lot of people really like to get outraged about other people's fantasies.

But nobody was doing that in here. There was talk about trends and problems in mainstream superhero comics styling, and discussion of redesigns by the linked artist and others, and so on, but basically not word one about how problematic other people's fantasies are or why it's bad for people to look at drawings and jerk off. You introduced the defense of that idea, and told everyone that "it's worth bearing in mind" something that no one had been taking an opposing stance on in here. It's shadowboxing, it's lecturing an absent interlocuter. That was the whole point of my reply to you, that you're acting like someone in here picked a fight that no one had, in fact, picked.
posted by cortex at 7:39 PM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

I'll confess that I just skimmed the thread before posting, and kind of assumed it would be the same old arguments. Glancing back now, I'm pleased to see there's not as much of that stuff as I would've expected. But, just as one for-instance:

"10% body fat + 40DD breasts = holy puerile penis-pandering plastic pornification Batman!"

It almost sounds like puerile penis-pandering plastic pornification is a bad thing.

I fear this is becoming one of those threads where I'll look back at it and realize I sounded rather sneery and dismissive. I have argued about wank material until dawn, but since superheroes really aren't my thing, I'm probably arguing based on old assumptions that don't reflect the current superhero market. It could well be that if I picked up one of these books, they would be so sexist and embarrassing my jaw would drop.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 8:00 PM on April 3, 2013

I don't read a lot of superhero comics either. I just find them... dumb. There are however some noteworthy exceptions -- Watchmen, The Authority, Planetary, Powers, Alias, Doom Patrol, arguably The Invisibles. All well-written, intelligent superhero books, and their heroines are strong, capable, reasonably-dressed non-bimbos. Seems like an obvious correlation -- the intelligently-written books have intelligently-written characters. And since I don't generally pay attention to supers, I imagine there's a few more such series I haven't encountered.

There's plenty of good stuff out there. You don't have to read (and be annoyed by) dreck. Is it worth the energy to try and convince the crap writers to not write crap, rather than just voting with your wallet? Honest question.
posted by rifflesby at 9:35 PM on April 3, 2013

"Well, it offends me that people are aroused by this stuff, and they need to stop it."

This is a terrible read of the situation.

It does not offend me that people are aroused by Supergirl. I'm aroused by Supergirl, as a drawing. I think women are sexy. I even find hilariously unrealistic portraits of male and female characters sexy, with their bizarrely huge bulges and triple-D breasts and all.

But I'm also disgusted and turned off by the huge disregard for women as readers-- the idea that men and boys are the major audience of most media franchises, thus their sex and power fantasies come first. And by first, I mean it's almost impossibly difficult to find media in the superheroes genre that specifically speaks to girls and women, or even acknowledges that they're there, reading, as actual people.

Somebody expressed it very well above-- it's not so much that women have innately sexual bodies that need to be hidden, but that superhero comics fail to regard the female body as a container for a female person. The female person hardly exists in that universe, because what's really important is the female body and what men want to do with it-- it's hard not to notice and feel alienated by that. As much as it sucks to acknowledge it, female bodies and female personhood are fraught issues, and most women don't want to try to identify with characters who are reduced to one-dimensional personalities and pandering sexuality. Women want to identify with interesting women. In my experience. And some women want to read superhero comics, and escape into their own fantasies, not become part of someone else's.

It's possible to write and draw sexualized female characters who are erotic for straight women, but that is not the goal of most of these writers and artists.

rifflesby, I agree with you to a certain extent-- I don't tend to read dumb stuff-- but it's part of the atmosphere, and I do wish we could raise the bar overall. The same way I wish racist and homophobic stereotypes were eliminated in that dreck, as well. Just because we're not voting for it with our wallets doesn't mean it's not still hugely influential, and that talking about it isn't useful.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:52 PM on April 3, 2013 [6 favorites]

Is it worth the energy to try and convince the crap writers to not write crap

Also, I think the goal is more to convince society as a whole to feel kind of insulted and embarrassed by crap. Obviously it won't happen overnight, but it appears that progress has been made. There are a lot of assumptions in that "crap" that apparently even posters here at MeFi hold-- that sexy women are the most interesting and confident, that women on a fundamental level are more sexually appealing than men, &c.-- just because someone is an intelligent, enlightened author of good comic books doesn't mean they don't hold some of the same prejudices found in "crap." They might just not be as explicit about them.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:55 PM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

"Not every piece of art or literature needs to be about sex" =/= "Sex is bad."

Every piece of art/literature could be about sex, for all I care. The problem is that "sex" is defined as "what straight men find sexually appealing about women, and what they want to do to and with women." That isn't sex, that's male sexual fantasy. Which has been amply represented throughout the history of media. Female sexual fantasy is so underrepresented that most people don't even have a clear idea of what that might look like (firefighters? candles? bathtubs?). When it is represented, it's often highly sublimated (Twilight) or adheres relatively faithfully to attitudes about female innocence/inexperience and male sexual domination (Fifty Shades of Gray). Why is the idea of a woman needing a man to coax forth her burgeoning sexuality so popular? And in women who are of the age where they are very capable of discovering their sexuality on their own? Why is this reality??

It almost sounds like puerile penis-pandering plastic pornification is a bad thing.

Y'know, maybe in our current world as is, it's not so great. Making penises happy is fine, I'm a great lover of male sexuality, but the fact that the huge market for mainstream pornography demands the same "plastic pornification" of nearly every woman it features is a little overwhelming, if you think about it. The same way corsets, while attractive, are a real act of physical devotion in retrospect. There's nothing wrong with natural female bodies in a variety of shapes-- they are capable of producing sexual arousal in men. But society demands more than that. Our culture has constructed the idea of a "sexy woman" in a way which demands a lot of women. Breast augmentation is common and labiaplasty is well-known. I have no issues with women who undergo either of those-- god knows I do many things for beauty-- but this is not an equal system of sexual demands on men and women. I'm waiting for the day when I can pick any comic book off the shelf and feel assured that there will be plenty of very sexy, very naked, very built men on every page with the clear message that I'm supposed to enjoy them and their verrry visible sexual characteristics, and I can't quite see it happening any time soon.

(Sorry, hit "post" too soon.)
posted by stoneandstar at 10:13 PM on April 3, 2013 [3 favorites]

"But I'm also disgusted and turned off by the huge disregard for women as readers-- the idea that men and boys are the major audience of most media franchises, thus their sex and power fantasies come first. And by first, I mean it's almost impossibly difficult to find media in the superheroes genre that specifically speaks to girls and women, or even acknowledges that they're there, reading, as actual people."

Ding ding ding! Correct! And exactly the reason why I gave up on reading most comics in the mid-90s. They pretty clearly didn't want me as a reader, and it was just getting worse and worse.
posted by litlnemo at 10:16 PM on April 3, 2013

" I'm waiting for the day when I can pick any comic book off the shelf and feel assured that there will be plenty of very sexy, very naked, very built men on every page with the clear message that I'm supposed to enjoy them and their verrry visible sexual characteristics, and I can't quite see it happening any time soon."

Really? Because most male superheroes are crazy-idealized, super-muscular, god-like creatures who are basically drawn naked and then colored so it looks like they have tights on. It often reads as very homoerotic to me, whether or not that was the intention.

I will certainly concede that this stuff is complicated, and that sexualization (of anybody) can sometimes have bad consequences in the real world. Beyond that, I'm honestly too busy and too tired tonight to argue about it.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 10:27 PM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

Also, I think the goal is more to convince society as a whole to feel kind of insulted and embarrassed by crap. Obviously it won't happen overnight, but it appears that progress has been made.

A fair point. Maybe I'm just cynical; I see sexist crap, but sexism is never the only reason that it's crap, so stopping it being sexist isn't going to stop it being crap. But I suppose that strays too far into the realm of my own opinion, and if it stops being sexist that's at least one less reason that it's crap, and that's something anyway.
posted by rifflesby at 10:36 PM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

Well, busy and tired and too disinterested in superheroes or not, you seem to be continuing the conversation, so I'll engage in all my foolish earnestness.

It's commonly expressed, but I do believe that crazy-idealized, god-like superheroes are meant to be male power fantasies, not female sexual fantasies. The reason I believe this is because I like seeing well-defined, built, muscular women kicking ass, and I don't feel sexually attracted to most depictions of male superheroes. I'm actually very attracted to men in more submissive, tradtionally "female" sexualized poses-- that does it for me, and for a lot of women who write slash and read yaoi, &c. &c. This would be such a huge transgression in most superhero comics that I have a hard time really even coming up with close examples. I like men with come-hither looks, with their sexual characteristics emphasized. That's not what male superheroes are about, in my experience.

Y'know, as a woman, I tend to get pretty keen on certain football players, for their attractive physiques and size. But there's an element of vulnerability in a real body that isn't present in a hyper-muscular superhero body. I don't know how to express it at the moment. I am not attracted to brute power-- I am attracted to broad shoulders, &c. There's a difference.

In superhero comics I see an identification with and respect for the male form that isn't present for the female form.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:37 PM on April 3, 2013 [1 favorite]

I remember reading an anecdote on the internet looooong ago, about a (young?) woman who was playing a racing arcade game in a public place. She was kicking ass at it and eventually beat the game, and was happy and high-fiving with her friends who were cheering her on. Then displayed the victory screen-- a very scantily clad woman gyrating with a waving flag in her hand. In her retelling she felt instantly embarrassed and awkward about having beat the game, which was obviously designed to appeal to particular male sexuality-- there were some snickers from behind her by a group of guys she didn't know.

Sure, it's possible for women to ignore it and forget about it and act breezy like a gyrating woman on a victory screen is no big deal-- but it's not the gyrating woman that's the problem, it's the message that what you're doing isn't for you, and that that message will DEFINITELY be reinforced by the men around you in whatever subculture you happen to be involved in. Those guys were snickering because this girl was being humiliated-- the message was that her place was in a sexy racing outfit gyrating, not racing a car. It's not a big deal in the grand scheme of things, but it's just one of a million messages you receive as a woman trying to do anything that happens to exist in a "man's world." The hilarity of the "get in the kitchen" and "make me a sandwich" jokes are that they're easy put-downs-- same with "tits or gtfo." They're "ironic," but also an exceedingly simple-- for some dumb reason, acceptable-- way of reinforcing the idea that women don't belong in a particular space. And so I don't think it's innocuous. Is a man being sexually attracted to a gyrating woman a big deal? No, but the idea that a gyrating woman is the "reward" for beating a racing game is a pretty strong message that the game is for men, and they weren't even thinking about you when they made it. And that is the message you hear over and over and over again pretty much every day of your life, if you are exposed to a lot of mainstream culture. It sucks, and it drives a lot of women and girls away from "male" hobbies like superhero comics and video games and tech culture on and on and on. Women want identification too, they want rewards too, they want sex too. But large portions of our media are happy to ignore that, in favor of myths about demographic pandering and men and women. It's not that I as a woman don't like comics or video games anymore, it's that I've gravitated more toward other hobbies where I'm recognized and included and given rewards and identification in proportion to my involvement.
posted by stoneandstar at 10:39 PM on April 3, 2013 [5 favorites]

(Plus, if being "drawn naked and then painted" were the only thing going on with female superheroes, it would be different. They have very little "paint" on them, often, are wearing high-heeled boots, strategic cutouts in their outfits, &c. Eroticism isn't just about a body existing. I think the way we look at female bodies has been deeply touched by the idea that they should be always eroticized, whereas the male body has largely resisted this.)
posted by stoneandstar at 10:47 PM on April 3, 2013

Woman's Olympic Taekwondo

The TKD dobok is a mandatory outfit that no player would wear by choice, if they had a choice. Unlike judo gis, which are important for grips, the dobok serves no purpose except to conform to the rules.

I think you'd probably see a technical athletic base layer with support plus some considerations for wear and tear as well as weather. So, inline skating, parkour, skateboarders, SWAT, stripped down to prevent grabbing and leave limbs free for heroic slugfests. And pockets.

He'll, just look at Morrison's New X-Men where the character who dresses ridiculously sexily wants to as a character trait and everybody else usually looks OK.
posted by mobunited at 1:55 AM on April 4, 2013

You know, thinking about it some more Morrison does seem to have a lot of fun addressing this stuff. Zatanna has a skimpy outfit in Seven Soldiers of Victory but it comes off as a gothy fashion thing owned by the character. The Bulleteer's arc is pretty much about superhero fetishes.

That is not to say this isn't problematic. The Bulleteer books talk about the fetish, but also indulge it with their covers and interiors. Same with Emma Frost in New X-Men. It's a clever gotcha and an attempt to have it both ways that doesn't sit comfortably.
posted by mobunited at 2:16 AM on April 4, 2013 [1 favorite]

I see people busting a brisket over a character like Power Girl, and it's kind of baffling to me. She looks hot in that outfit, the nerd boys love her, and that seems like enough of a justification for her to exist. She's not real.

Actually, the old Amanda Connor drawn Power Girl series of a few years back was one that didn't have the problems the artist in the original post was reacting against. In that series, Power Girl was well aware of her physique and somewhat absurd costume, but she wasn't a fanboy masturbation object: no impossible boobs + butt shot, no come hither looks, but plenty of humour.

And a lot of people like to cosplay her, boob window and all.

It is possible to have sexy, glamorous superheroines without being offensive or pandering. The trouble is that in the current climate at DC & Marvel (and especially DC), people think they need to replace a character like Amanda Waller, a stocky, beefy, middle aged Black woman with a sexier, slinkier, younger version with bigger boobs and let her pose for the reader.
posted by MartinWisse at 6:35 AM on April 4, 2013 [2 favorites]

I think this is one of the best Wonder Woman redesigns that I have seen recently. She's wearing actual segmented armor but still shows skin in the Greco/Roman fashion. I would argue that she is *still* fully dressed in that getup.
posted by Therapeutic Amputations at 10:24 AM on April 4, 2013

Scythian Wonder Woman Redesign
posted by homunculus at 11:12 AM on April 4, 2013 [1 favorite]

What especially weird about the comic book industry's disservice to women is that this is one of those rare occasions where Rule 34 can swoop in to save the day.

Let us say, for sake of argument, that female comic book characters will always be in some way fantasies for the male readers, and that as such they will always be idealized and dressed in a way that would please these male readers. Take this as a given.

Okay, now look at all those websites like Gawker and The Superficial, to say nothing of the million billion pr0n sites out there in existence. Look at all the women pictured on those sites. Really look at their body shapes. Now compare these body shapes to those of female characters at DC and Marvel.

There is more variety in those websites' objectified portrayals of women than there is at Marvel and DC. You look at those websites, and you see tall women, short women, waifs, Amazons, curvy girls, husky girls, tomboys, the list goes on and on and on and on. All in more costumes than anyone could count.

When I read superhero comics, I always feel like almost every female character has the same Heidi-Klum-as-athlete sort of body. There are a few exceptions, but generally, that is the default type, and in my completely subjective view, more of the female characters are drawn to that default than men are drawn to any particular default.

Why doesn't comics industry pick up on this?
posted by Sticherbeast at 11:22 AM on April 4, 2013 [1 favorite]

Sadly, there have been a lot of comics artists who make all men's bodies exactly the same and all women's bodies exactly the same... even independent of the issues being discussed here, that should be considered a sub-professional level of work.
posted by Zed at 12:22 PM on April 4, 2013 [1 favorite]

It almost sounds like puerile penis-pandering plastic pornification is a bad thing.

Examined as a single event in isolation? Not really. Understood in the broader context of its pervasive, omnipresent, suffocating, exclusionist, dehumanizing, cancerous, near-total infiltration of a culturally important vehicle of modern mythtelling? Youuuuuubetcha.

stoneandstar and cortex said it so eloquently it feels like there's not much to add.
posted by SinAesthetic at 9:39 AM on April 5, 2013 [4 favorites]

Sticherbeast: What especially weird about the comic book industry's disservice to women is that this is one of those rare occasions where Rule 34 can swoop in to save the day.

Let us say, for sake of argument, that female comic book characters will always be in some way fantasies for the male readers, and that as such they will always be idealized and dressed in a way that would please these male readers. Take this as a given.

I don't think you understand Rule 34. It doesn't mean that anything you can imagine will be considered sexually attractive to a majority of people. Conversely, comic book companies cannot make sales based on appealing only to tiny demographics.
posted by IAmBroom at 12:39 PM on April 5, 2013

I get the humanist and feminist reasons behind the desire for comic female bodies to be portrayed realistically. But, if I'm honest, another reason I'm bothered is that I'd like a few cosplay options for my slight frame and small bust.

You know, some people actually prefer my build type - don't they deserve masterbatory material, too?
posted by _paegan_ at 3:05 PM on April 5, 2013 [4 favorites]

In other news: Apple censors comic featuring images of gay sex, lets straight sex slide. Apple blocked the sale of an issue of "Saga" over two "postage stamp-sized" images of gay sex

Saga previously.
posted by homunculus at 1:02 PM on April 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

Or not.

It wasn't Apple censoring the book, it was Comixology the seller of the reader app/service, who thought they had to refuse it to comply with Apple Store policy. Apparently not, and Saga #12 is on sale.
posted by bonehead at 2:00 PM on April 10, 2013 [1 favorite]

Yeah, that clusterfuck has mutated. Still, it outlines some worrying aspects of the presumed app-mediated digital future of comics. I might put together a post once there are some decent post-mortems.
posted by Artw at 5:23 PM on April 10, 2013 [1 favorite]