You say Paleo, I say Pa-tahleo
June 1, 2013 2:19 PM Subscribe
Scientists express skepticism (and mocking derision) about the "Paleo" diet. The Paleo diet purports to enhance the health of modern human beings by mimicking what our prehistoric ancestors presumably ate.
Not surprisingly, science disagrees about the historicity of the Paleo Diet project, but somewhat less with the nutritional benefits. For their part, dietitians might not have an opinion on the historicity, but some challenge the nutritional and practical value. Some appear to be sold on the concept *wink, wink*, regardless.
Not surprisingly, science disagrees about the historicity of the Paleo Diet project, but somewhat less with the nutritional benefits. For their part, dietitians might not have an opinion on the historicity, but some challenge the nutritional and practical value. Some appear to be sold on the concept *wink, wink*, regardless.
The paleo folks seem cultish and are probably taking things too far, but as far as I can tell, the entire field of nutrition has been a pseudoscience for at least the last fifty years. "Good Calories Bad Calories" did not necessarily convince me of the author's low carb views, but it did convince me that none of the "mainstream" experts know what the hell they're talking about either. The opinions of professional "dietitians" and "nutritionists" on either side are about as interesting to me as those of astrologists.
I think the archaeological debates are quite interesting, though, and they're probably being unnecessarily polarized by the modern diet angle.
posted by pete_22 at 2:34 PM on June 1, 2013 [11 favorites]
I think the archaeological debates are quite interesting, though, and they're probably being unnecessarily polarized by the modern diet angle.
posted by pete_22 at 2:34 PM on June 1, 2013 [11 favorites]
Yeah, satire of some kind. Googling "Dr. Britta Hoyes," the supposed organizer of an unnamed conference in Frankfurt, only brings up references to that same article. It's definitely being quoted around as a serious article, unfortunately.
posted by muddgirl at 2:35 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by muddgirl at 2:35 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
So, that first link is satire
Yep. The other links are not and give a more serious discussion of why the paleo diet concept might be a bit off.
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 2:37 PM on June 1, 2013
Yep. The other links are not and give a more serious discussion of why the paleo diet concept might be a bit off.
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 2:37 PM on June 1, 2013
Stop listening to the mainstream feedia sheeple!
posted by srboisvert at 2:37 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by srboisvert at 2:37 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
I think the reason that a lot of food fetishism is because people feel completely out of control in their lives. By choosing some sort of obscure or special diet, it gives them a feeling of being in control of something and thus being less helpless.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 2:38 PM on June 1, 2013 [68 favorites]
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 2:38 PM on June 1, 2013 [68 favorites]
I'm already getting poop transplants, having weekly detox herbal smoothies, eating a well balanced LCHF / cabbage soup diet, regularly doing my Extreme Prison Camp workout, wearing my vintage Lululemon yoga pants and my Portland made bespoke minimalist running shoes - so sure I'll eat a caveman's diet. You would have to be silly not to!
posted by Foci for Analysis at 2:39 PM on June 1, 2013 [40 favorites]
posted by Foci for Analysis at 2:39 PM on June 1, 2013 [40 favorites]
My $0.02: I have cut carbohydrates relative to other calorie sources, and also cut calories a bit, and it is extremely effective at allowing to both lose weight and feel great, two things I previously feared were mutually exclusive
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:40 PM on June 1, 2013 [13 favorites]
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:40 PM on June 1, 2013 [13 favorites]
vintage Lululemon yoga pants
The kind you can't see through; right?
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 2:41 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
The kind you can't see through; right?
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 2:41 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
Another, entirely different, motivation for food fetishism is elitism: I'm too cool to eat gluten; I'm special so I need a gluten-free diet. Etc.
I bet there are ten people on gluten-free diets for every person who actually suffers from Crohn's.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 2:41 PM on June 1, 2013 [29 favorites]
I bet there are ten people on gluten-free diets for every person who actually suffers from Crohn's.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 2:41 PM on June 1, 2013 [29 favorites]
paleo spawned a thousand instagrams of food.
'good calories bad calories'
i had a good biochemistry textbook that explained good/bad cholesterol, which is roughly: your cells are made up of molecules, these have a membrane that's semirigid to keep the liquid contents inside, this membrane needs to be quite flexible so it can allow molecules in and out in the gaps between molecules and for other reasons i forget; the 'bad' cholesterol molecules are very rigid: although some of them are needed to keep your membrane rigid enough, too many make it too rigid. Neat, huh? Trans-fatty-acids or 'hydrogenised vegetable fats' are the most rigid.
posted by maiamaia at 2:43 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
'good calories bad calories'
i had a good biochemistry textbook that explained good/bad cholesterol, which is roughly: your cells are made up of molecules, these have a membrane that's semirigid to keep the liquid contents inside, this membrane needs to be quite flexible so it can allow molecules in and out in the gaps between molecules and for other reasons i forget; the 'bad' cholesterol molecules are very rigid: although some of them are needed to keep your membrane rigid enough, too many make it too rigid. Neat, huh? Trans-fatty-acids or 'hydrogenised vegetable fats' are the most rigid.
posted by maiamaia at 2:43 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
The gut flora fpp a few doors down makes all of this more interesting, as we seem to be discovering that although the human body has not changed a whole lot since our Paleo ancestors were eating raw gazelle or whatever, the flora inhabiting our digestive system can and does change quite quickly.
posted by rtha at 2:43 PM on June 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by rtha at 2:43 PM on June 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
Diet is also an arena where you can be completely self-centered, but feel virtuous and superior to others.
posted by thelonius at 2:43 PM on June 1, 2013 [32 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 2:43 PM on June 1, 2013 [32 favorites]
In a world where everything is poisonous, people will pursue purity and health to extremes. This isn't anything new. Health, diet and "wellness" fads go back until at least the late 19th century.
There is a PhD dissertation waiting for the first person who can connect the rise of industrial civilization to the rise of fad diets and health crazes.
posted by Avenger at 2:44 PM on June 1, 2013 [9 favorites]
There is a PhD dissertation waiting for the first person who can connect the rise of industrial civilization to the rise of fad diets and health crazes.
posted by Avenger at 2:44 PM on June 1, 2013 [9 favorites]
Judging people for what they eat or don't eat is mind-numbingly boring.
posted by bleep at 2:47 PM on June 1, 2013 [40 favorites]
posted by bleep at 2:47 PM on June 1, 2013 [40 favorites]
Actually its the post war productivity boom driving the crafting of mainstream consumer culture fueled by debt, documented by Vance Packard and uber blogger Marshall McLuhan.
We are now seeing the crash test dummy segment of that grand design which built in obsolescence and kept the consumption growing by jerking the pavlovian chain.
Fad diets and health crazes are just the this Fall's hemlines for the food industrial complex.
posted by infini at 2:49 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
We are now seeing the crash test dummy segment of that grand design which built in obsolescence and kept the consumption growing by jerking the pavlovian chain.
Fad diets and health crazes are just the this Fall's hemlines for the food industrial complex.
posted by infini at 2:49 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
>vintage Lululemon yoga pants
The kind you can't see through; right?
I am afraid it's a Pokémon/Little Lulu mash up, which would not be right!
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:51 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
The kind you can't see through; right?
I am afraid it's a Pokémon/Little Lulu mash up, which would not be right!
posted by GenjiandProust at 2:51 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Actually its the post war productivity boom driving the crafting of mainstream consumer culture fueled by debt, per Vance Packard and documented by uber blogger Marshall McLuhan.
We are now seeing the crash test dummy segment of that grand design which built in obsolescence and kept the consumption growing by jerking the pavlovian chain.
Fad diets and health crazes are just the this Fall's hemlines for the food industrial complex.
Definite contender for the New Yorker's Block That Metaphor....
posted by Philofacts at 2:52 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
We are now seeing the crash test dummy segment of that grand design which built in obsolescence and kept the consumption growing by jerking the pavlovian chain.
Fad diets and health crazes are just the this Fall's hemlines for the food industrial complex.
Definite contender for the New Yorker's Block That Metaphor....
posted by Philofacts at 2:52 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
During the pleistocene we were all like in tune with the nature, man.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 2:55 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Pyrogenesis at 2:55 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
If it doesn't include insects, carrion, cannibalism and stuff that looks OK but might kill you then it really isn't paleo...
posted by jim in austin at 2:55 PM on June 1, 2013 [22 favorites]
posted by jim in austin at 2:55 PM on June 1, 2013 [22 favorites]
connect the rise of industrial civilization to the rise of fad diets and health crazes.
Too Late: Eating Right in the Renaissance
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:55 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
Too Late: Eating Right in the Renaissance
posted by the man of twists and turns at 2:55 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by El Sabor Asiatico at 2:56 PM on June 1, 2013 [9 favorites]
All these new diets reduce to "eat fewer carbs" and, you know, for being scientists it's straight up remarkable how much they refuse to accept the fairly unambiguous data about what happens when carbohydrate consumption plummets.
It's not exactly subtle.
posted by effugas at 2:57 PM on June 1, 2013 [7 favorites]
It's not exactly subtle.
posted by effugas at 2:57 PM on June 1, 2013 [7 favorites]
As an anthropologist, when I first heard about this from a fad-friendly friend, I told her I was going to get her a yam-digging stick because hell, lots of root vegetables. I also wished her best of luck with seasonal migration to follow the food sources.
I did not tell her about the plan my cohort at grad school had regarding the gorilla poo diet we were going to try to sell in the same vein. Because she is my friend.
posted by cobaltnine at 2:58 PM on June 1, 2013 [14 favorites]
I did not tell her about the plan my cohort at grad school had regarding the gorilla poo diet we were going to try to sell in the same vein. Because she is my friend.
posted by cobaltnine at 2:58 PM on June 1, 2013 [14 favorites]
connect the rise of industrial civilization to the rise of fad diets and health crazes.
Too Late: Eating Right in the Renaissance
Too Late: The Culinary Triangle.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 3:00 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Too Late: Eating Right in the Renaissance
Too Late: The Culinary Triangle.
posted by Pyrogenesis at 3:00 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
The best thing about the paleo diet is getting to mention research on Neanderthal tooth plaque (more recent and controversial research here) in casual conversation as if that were a normal thing.
posted by jetlagaddict at 3:05 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by jetlagaddict at 3:05 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
1 Metabolic and physiologic improvements from consuming a paleolithic, hunter-gatherer type diet.
L.A. Frassetto, M. Mietus-Synder, R.C. Morris, Jr., M. Schloetter, and A. Sebastian. European Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 63.8 (Aug. 2009) p947. Word Count: 5617.
Results: Compared with the baseline (usual) diet, we observed (a) significant reductions in BP associated with improved arterial distensibility (-3.1 [+ or -] 2.9, P = 0.01 and + 0.19 [+ or -] 0.23, P = 0.05);(b) significant reduction in plasma insulin vs time AUC, during the OGTT (P=0.006); and (c) large significant reductions in total cholesterol, low-density lipoproteins (LDL) and triglycerides (-0.8 [+ or -] 0.6 (P = 0.007), -0.7 [+ or -] 0.5 (P = 0.003) and -0.3 [+ or -] 0.3 (P = 0.01) mmol/l respectively). In all these measured variables, either eight or all nine participants had identical directional responses when switched to paleolithic type diet, that is, near consistently improved status of circulatory, carbohydrate and lipid metabolism/physiology.
Conclusions: Even short-term consumption of a paleolithic type diet improves BP and glucose tolerance, decreases insulin secretion, increases insulin sensitivity and improves lipid profiles without weight loss in healthy sedentary humans.
2 Effects of a short-term intervention with a paleolithic diet in healthy volunteers
M Österdahl, T Kocturk, A Koochek and P E Wändell
European Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2008) 62, 682–685; doi:10.1038/sj.ejcn.1602790; published online 16 May 2007
Results: Mean weight decreased by 2.3 kg (P<0>3 Ancestral diets and modern diseases
3 Ancestral diets and modern diseases
Maurizio Sudano, Franco Gregorio
Mediterranean Journal of Nutrition and Metabolism
December 2011, Volume 4, Issue 3, pp 181-189
Despite the unavoidable discussions among scholars, it is now clear that most of human evolution occurred when our ancestors were hunter-gatherers. Specific biochemical pathways and peculiar biomechanical properties (plenty of sudoriferous glands, strong Achilles tendons, etcetera) show that our body has been designed in order to withstand prolonged physical exercise. Consequently, we first need a right amount of activity to comply with our ancestral heritage. Moreover, we are now facing an irreconcilable evolutionary mismatch between our genes and “genetically unknown foods” [67]. Paleo-diet may be an unusual, yet effective, strategy for slowing atherogenesis, but, despite a tiny commercial paleomania that has issued “prehistoric” cookbooks [68], more controlled studies are needed. A recent analysis has recognized the usefulness of three dietary strategies in slowing atherogenesis [69]:
replacing saturated and trans fats with polyunsaturated fats;
raising the intake of ϖ3 fatty acids; and
raising the intake of fruits, vegetables and not refined grains.
This nutritional pattern can be found in several cultures, but, admittedly, Mediterranean diets are tasty ways to fight against the plague of metabolic diseases.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 3:08 PM on June 1, 2013 [12 favorites]
L.A. Frassetto, M. Mietus-Synder, R.C. Morris, Jr., M. Schloetter, and A. Sebastian. European Journal of Clinical Nutrition. 63.8 (Aug. 2009) p947. Word Count: 5617.
Results: Compared with the baseline (usual) diet, we observed (a) significant reductions in BP associated with improved arterial distensibility (-3.1 [+ or -] 2.9, P = 0.01 and + 0.19 [+ or -] 0.23, P = 0.05);(b) significant reduction in plasma insulin vs time AUC, during the OGTT (P=0.006); and (c) large significant reductions in total cholesterol, low-density lipoproteins (LDL) and triglycerides (-0.8 [+ or -] 0.6 (P = 0.007), -0.7 [+ or -] 0.5 (P = 0.003) and -0.3 [+ or -] 0.3 (P = 0.01) mmol/l respectively). In all these measured variables, either eight or all nine participants had identical directional responses when switched to paleolithic type diet, that is, near consistently improved status of circulatory, carbohydrate and lipid metabolism/physiology.
Conclusions: Even short-term consumption of a paleolithic type diet improves BP and glucose tolerance, decreases insulin secretion, increases insulin sensitivity and improves lipid profiles without weight loss in healthy sedentary humans.
2 Effects of a short-term intervention with a paleolithic diet in healthy volunteers
M Österdahl, T Kocturk, A Koochek and P E Wändell
European Journal of Clinical Nutrition (2008) 62, 682–685; doi:10.1038/sj.ejcn.1602790; published online 16 May 2007
Results: Mean weight decreased by 2.3 kg (P<0>3 Ancestral diets and modern diseases
3 Ancestral diets and modern diseases
Maurizio Sudano, Franco Gregorio
Mediterranean Journal of Nutrition and Metabolism
December 2011, Volume 4, Issue 3, pp 181-189
Despite the unavoidable discussions among scholars, it is now clear that most of human evolution occurred when our ancestors were hunter-gatherers. Specific biochemical pathways and peculiar biomechanical properties (plenty of sudoriferous glands, strong Achilles tendons, etcetera) show that our body has been designed in order to withstand prolonged physical exercise. Consequently, we first need a right amount of activity to comply with our ancestral heritage. Moreover, we are now facing an irreconcilable evolutionary mismatch between our genes and “genetically unknown foods” [67]. Paleo-diet may be an unusual, yet effective, strategy for slowing atherogenesis, but, despite a tiny commercial paleomania that has issued “prehistoric” cookbooks [68], more controlled studies are needed. A recent analysis has recognized the usefulness of three dietary strategies in slowing atherogenesis [69]:
replacing saturated and trans fats with polyunsaturated fats;
raising the intake of ϖ3 fatty acids; and
raising the intake of fruits, vegetables and not refined grains.
This nutritional pattern can be found in several cultures, but, admittedly, Mediterranean diets are tasty ways to fight against the plague of metabolic diseases.
posted by whyareyouatriangle at 3:08 PM on June 1, 2013 [12 favorites]
I'm already getting poop transplants
Please don't include fecal microbiota transplant in a list of things that you think are stupid trends. Many people die every year due to antibiotic resistant C. difficile infection, and FMT is emerging as one of our best treatments for it (with the added bonus of not being yet another antibiotic). Swapping poop for fun -- silly. FMT to save a life or drastically improve quality of life... you might as well make fun of chemo or organ transplant.
I bet there are ten people on gluten-free diets for every person who actually suffers from Crohn's.
I assume you mean Celiac disease, which is an endoscopically and pathologically confirmed sensitivity to gluten. Gluten literally tears up the insides of people with Celiac Disease. There is some emerging evidence that a gluten-free diet can be beneficial to people with Crohn's disease but it is still far outside of the mainstream (much like the paleo diet, I suppose).
posted by telegraph at 3:09 PM on June 1, 2013 [32 favorites]
Please don't include fecal microbiota transplant in a list of things that you think are stupid trends. Many people die every year due to antibiotic resistant C. difficile infection, and FMT is emerging as one of our best treatments for it (with the added bonus of not being yet another antibiotic). Swapping poop for fun -- silly. FMT to save a life or drastically improve quality of life... you might as well make fun of chemo or organ transplant.
I bet there are ten people on gluten-free diets for every person who actually suffers from Crohn's.
I assume you mean Celiac disease, which is an endoscopically and pathologically confirmed sensitivity to gluten. Gluten literally tears up the insides of people with Celiac Disease. There is some emerging evidence that a gluten-free diet can be beneficial to people with Crohn's disease but it is still far outside of the mainstream (much like the paleo diet, I suppose).
posted by telegraph at 3:09 PM on June 1, 2013 [32 favorites]
> I bet there are ten people on gluten-free diets for every person who actually suffers from Crohn's.
You mean celiac disease. Crohn's doesn't normally respond to a change in gluten. (Although people can suffer from both Crohn's and celiac, so it might appear to respond when really it's their undiagnosed celiac that's getting better.)
> The opinions of professional "dietitians" and "nutritionists" on either side are about as interesting to me as those of astrologists.
Let's not dismiss every nutritionist and dietician just because you read some cringeworthy things from a few vocal enthusiasts — most of whom have no formal education. As someone who does suffer from Crohn's disease, I can tell you that there are folks who need the help of a dietician to get their disease under control.
I feel this is some of the problem. There are uninformed people spouting nonsense, sure, but then we have equally uninformed people countering with complete dismissal as though they're correct by virtue of being contrarian.
posted by ceol at 3:13 PM on June 1, 2013 [12 favorites]
You mean celiac disease. Crohn's doesn't normally respond to a change in gluten. (Although people can suffer from both Crohn's and celiac, so it might appear to respond when really it's their undiagnosed celiac that's getting better.)
> The opinions of professional "dietitians" and "nutritionists" on either side are about as interesting to me as those of astrologists.
Let's not dismiss every nutritionist and dietician just because you read some cringeworthy things from a few vocal enthusiasts — most of whom have no formal education. As someone who does suffer from Crohn's disease, I can tell you that there are folks who need the help of a dietician to get their disease under control.
I feel this is some of the problem. There are uninformed people spouting nonsense, sure, but then we have equally uninformed people countering with complete dismissal as though they're correct by virtue of being contrarian.
posted by ceol at 3:13 PM on June 1, 2013 [12 favorites]
I did a version of this last year for a couple of months. I was skeptical about people claiming that this is how our ancestors ate as well as some of the 'science' around things you shouldn't eat but I thought I'd give it a whirl because...bacon and butter. Any diet that says it's okay to eat some bacon is okay by me.
The results? The first week sucked. I felt horrible. Then something kicked in and I felt great, had way more energy and over two month easily lost 15 pounds without ever feeling hungry. Then some life stuff happened and I stopped. It was expensive and I couldn't afford all the meat. Plus due to stress I went back to eating a lot of my comfort foods which are carb and sugar heavy. The inevitable happened. I gained back the weight and generally felt crappier again.
This spring I said enough is enough and started paying more attention again to what I was eating. I had learned a lot about how different food reacts to my specific body while on the Paleo, as well as was introduced to some new foodstuffs I hadn't used much before.
Now I'm not on any specific diet. I've found what seems to be working for me and do use a lot of food and some ways of using it that I learned while doing Paleo. The main thing that I think it helped me do is kick a dependence on carbs. I still have grains but they aren't a major part of my diet like they were before and it got me into not using much refined sugars. Most of my sugar comes from fruit which has other nutritional value.
Now I eat majority veggies and fruit, legumes, use a lot more of nuts and seeds and some meat.
I don't eat barely any bread anymore not because I'm purposely trying to avoid it but that it just isn't something I feel like eating. I suppose it's sort of like paleo but really it's just whole simple foods though I consume the majority of my daily veggies in things like blended smoothie type drinks which I love and are easy to make.
So I do think that these paleo type diets can be good for some people because it's appeal (bacon and meat) isn't as off putting as other diets and it can get you eating just better stuff in general. More decent veggies and other high nutrient foods not as typical in a western diet. Plus it can break the carb/sugar cycle which is a real thing as many diabetics know.
Another offset I noticed was the concern, especially regarding meat and how it's produced. That's not a bad thing in my mind.
As with any diet I think the problems come when it starts getting treated almost like a religion with rules that just can't be broken.
posted by Jalliah at 3:14 PM on June 1, 2013 [10 favorites]
Eh.
While there are some folks who take things too far, I see a lot of reactions to a strawman version of paleo, caricatured out of recognition.
We know that large swaths of the population have obvious, immediate short-term bad reactions to trying to metabolize things like lactose and alcohol, despite these things having been around a few millenia. It isn't entirely beyond the pale that we have yet to achieve perfect long-term adaptation to our migration towards a diet of primarily complex carbohydrates, which happened many more millenia ago.
All of the years we survive after having successfully raised offspring are gravy; anything that doesn't outright kill us before then is a-okay when it comes to adaptation. If our diet gives us diabetes in our late forties or a heart attack in our late fifties, it makes no dfference to our genes, because copies of them are already running about ready to make copies of their own.
posted by adipocere at 3:15 PM on June 1, 2013 [11 favorites]
While there are some folks who take things too far, I see a lot of reactions to a strawman version of paleo, caricatured out of recognition.
We know that large swaths of the population have obvious, immediate short-term bad reactions to trying to metabolize things like lactose and alcohol, despite these things having been around a few millenia. It isn't entirely beyond the pale that we have yet to achieve perfect long-term adaptation to our migration towards a diet of primarily complex carbohydrates, which happened many more millenia ago.
All of the years we survive after having successfully raised offspring are gravy; anything that doesn't outright kill us before then is a-okay when it comes to adaptation. If our diet gives us diabetes in our late forties or a heart attack in our late fifties, it makes no dfference to our genes, because copies of them are already running about ready to make copies of their own.
posted by adipocere at 3:15 PM on June 1, 2013 [11 favorites]
'Paleofantasy' is a book I just started reading.
posted by box at 3:15 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by box at 3:15 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
I just keep to the simple ways of my people that have sustained us since the dawn of time, leeching calories and nutrients from cocktails and the ambient environment around brunch buffets.
posted by The Whelk at 3:18 PM on June 1, 2013 [34 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 3:18 PM on June 1, 2013 [34 favorites]
Well, at least Young Earth Creationists can now follow the Paleo diet without feeling sacrilegious...
posted by FJT at 3:19 PM on June 1, 2013
posted by FJT at 3:19 PM on June 1, 2013
ll these new diets reduce to "eat fewer carbs" and, you know, for being scientists it's straight up remarkable how much they refuse to accept the fairly unambiguous data about what happens when carbohydrate consumption plummets.
It's not exactly subtle.
If carb consumption goes down past a certain level sure but there is a difference between 'eat fewer' because a persons general diet is really high in carbs and possibly not very nutrient dense carbs and eat fewer and more nutrient dense type carbs.
posted by Jalliah at 3:19 PM on June 1, 2013
It's not exactly subtle.
If carb consumption goes down past a certain level sure but there is a difference between 'eat fewer' because a persons general diet is really high in carbs and possibly not very nutrient dense carbs and eat fewer and more nutrient dense type carbs.
posted by Jalliah at 3:19 PM on June 1, 2013
What actually happens when you reduce carb intake that is or isn't subtle, please?
posted by DMelanogaster at 3:35 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by DMelanogaster at 3:35 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Lose weight by consuming less calories. Lower cholesterol by eating less high cholesterol things (and/or medicine, as it can be genetic, just like weight). Exercise. Keep salt intake down to a reasonable amount. You will slowly lose weight this way. There is no magic diet. I was a strict vegan for years and years, for ethical more than health reasons, I've been on the other side of the magic mirror of self-righteousness and all these diets just become religions. Everyone swallows the red pill and believes that they are right and it is the only right way to be, even if it's obviously not and/or their own health suffers for it.
posted by Malice at 3:37 PM on June 1, 2013
posted by Malice at 3:37 PM on June 1, 2013
bacon and butter
I hate to break it to you, but paleolithic people ate neither of those things.
posted by Sara C. at 3:39 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
I hate to break it to you, but paleolithic people ate neither of those things.
posted by Sara C. at 3:39 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
Hello, is this the thread where people shout down other people's actual successes in improving their health?
posted by seanmpuckett at 3:43 PM on June 1, 2013 [34 favorites]
posted by seanmpuckett at 3:43 PM on June 1, 2013 [34 favorites]
In 2006 my mother was diagnosed with type II diabetes and I became suspicious about my own getting-old health problems. For New Year's Day 2006 I bought myself a glucose meter and a blood pressure meter. The Bg meter said my fasting glucose was 110 mg/dl, which most doctors would have called "flagged, see me next year." I ate a Snickers bar to see what would happen and what happened was it went to 200 mg/dl. I knew that wasn't right.
I went through about 300 test strips figuring out what wouldn't send my Bg over 140 mg/dl, the threshold for nerve and pancreatic damage. The answer to that question basically ran down to "don't eat carbs." Bread, pasta, potatoes, all worse than even sweets. Sweets still very bad. Meat, dairy, and even alcohol, OK. In fact, alcohol brings my Bg down, and after the stupid three of the prescribed twelve dexawhatsits after my wisdom tooth if I totally stop drinking my fasting glucose starts creeping up.
Along with the glucose bombs I lost about 40 lb effortlessly, went from an attack of gout a month to one every couple of years, and lost other bothers like hemorrhoids.
Yeah, the "paleo" part is highly suspect for many reasons, but the low-carb stuff is very real. There's a good chance I would be dead today without it.
posted by localroger at 3:44 PM on June 1, 2013 [13 favorites]
I went through about 300 test strips figuring out what wouldn't send my Bg over 140 mg/dl, the threshold for nerve and pancreatic damage. The answer to that question basically ran down to "don't eat carbs." Bread, pasta, potatoes, all worse than even sweets. Sweets still very bad. Meat, dairy, and even alcohol, OK. In fact, alcohol brings my Bg down, and after the stupid three of the prescribed twelve dexawhatsits after my wisdom tooth if I totally stop drinking my fasting glucose starts creeping up.
Along with the glucose bombs I lost about 40 lb effortlessly, went from an attack of gout a month to one every couple of years, and lost other bothers like hemorrhoids.
Yeah, the "paleo" part is highly suspect for many reasons, but the low-carb stuff is very real. There's a good chance I would be dead today without it.
posted by localroger at 3:44 PM on June 1, 2013 [13 favorites]
Eat food. Not too much. Mostly bacon butties.
posted by eddydamascene at 3:44 PM on June 1, 2013 [17 favorites]
posted by eddydamascene at 3:44 PM on June 1, 2013 [17 favorites]
The point of trying out all these different 'diets' is that it ultimately brings you closer to food. You actually think about what your body needs and how it reacts to certain foods. Trying Paleo has made me look differently at how we eat - we now use common sense: Nothing labeled as 'low fat' (full of sugar and chemicals), minimal sugar if any, dairy in small doses, grains only once or twice a week, variety of quality meat, chicken, eggs, fish etc. I can't wait for the next fad to continue the exploration.
posted by weezy at 3:45 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by weezy at 3:45 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
I hate to break it to you, but paleolithic people ate neither of those things.
I'm aware of that. They didn't eat most of the things we eat today or are recommended in these types of diets because they didn't exist in the domesticated forms we have available today which most do say as much. If I remember correctly a lot of it is about meat and fats. With 'fats' not being as bad (low fat) diets and foodstuffs as it's been made out to be. Our bodies need fats and different types of fats just like any other nutrient. So bacon and butter aren't necessarily 'bad' for you.
posted by Jalliah at 3:47 PM on June 1, 2013
I'm aware of that. They didn't eat most of the things we eat today or are recommended in these types of diets because they didn't exist in the domesticated forms we have available today which most do say as much. If I remember correctly a lot of it is about meat and fats. With 'fats' not being as bad (low fat) diets and foodstuffs as it's been made out to be. Our bodies need fats and different types of fats just like any other nutrient. So bacon and butter aren't necessarily 'bad' for you.
posted by Jalliah at 3:47 PM on June 1, 2013
Wow some of these comments are just ugh. I've been doing Paleo for two months and lost a safe amount of weight, feel and look better, and it's got me cooking more and being more careful when I eat out. I don't feel good if I have gluten or refined sugar now. I don't feel like I'm better than anyone else, I don't care about the caveman stuff, just let people eat how they want.
posted by sweetkid at 3:49 PM on June 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by sweetkid at 3:49 PM on June 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
Eat food. Like your body. If you need to change your body for health reasons, eat whatever gets you to that.
I'm not trying to shame anyone's food choices at all. Eat ten pigs worth of bacon a day if it achieves the results you want.
But that doesn't change the fact that paleolithic peoples had no domesticated livestock, and thus no bacon, and certainly no dairy products.
posted by Sara C. at 3:50 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
I'm not trying to shame anyone's food choices at all. Eat ten pigs worth of bacon a day if it achieves the results you want.
But that doesn't change the fact that paleolithic peoples had no domesticated livestock, and thus no bacon, and certainly no dairy products.
posted by Sara C. at 3:50 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
I find the name misleading, which is kind of off-putting. There weren't really "humans" back in the Paleolithic -- maybe "humanoids".
Also, I call dibs on the copyright for the "Iron Age" diet.
posted by wormwood23 at 3:52 PM on June 1, 2013
Also, I call dibs on the copyright for the "Iron Age" diet.
posted by wormwood23 at 3:52 PM on June 1, 2013
If I remember correctly a lot of it is about meat and fats. With 'fats' not being as bad (low fat) diets and foodstuffs as it's been made out to be.
Yeah, but see that's the thing. I know I'm being pedantic, but seriously it just boggles the mind.
Paleolithic peoples didn't eat a high amount of fat. They wouldn't have had access to animals that produce a lot of fat, with the possible exception of paleolithic arctic peoples and blubber.
So, I dunno, eat whatever you want I guess. But why is it called paleo? What does it have to do with paleolithic eating habits? How do you get to "we are evolutionarily supposed to eat this way" without some connection to ancient peoples? It makes no sense.
posted by Sara C. at 3:54 PM on June 1, 2013 [10 favorites]
Yeah, but see that's the thing. I know I'm being pedantic, but seriously it just boggles the mind.
Paleolithic peoples didn't eat a high amount of fat. They wouldn't have had access to animals that produce a lot of fat, with the possible exception of paleolithic arctic peoples and blubber.
So, I dunno, eat whatever you want I guess. But why is it called paleo? What does it have to do with paleolithic eating habits? How do you get to "we are evolutionarily supposed to eat this way" without some connection to ancient peoples? It makes no sense.
posted by Sara C. at 3:54 PM on June 1, 2013 [10 favorites]
I'm not trying to shame anyone's food choices at all. Eat ten pigs worth of bacon a day if it achieves the results you want.
But that doesn't change the fact that paleolithic peoples had no domesticated livestock, and thus no bacon, and certainly no dairy products.
I don't really want to argue because I don't do paleo anymore but this isn't what it is about at all. Neither did any of the stuff I ever read about say 'you are going to eat exactly the same stuff, in the exact same way as your ancestors did'. It's also hardly about eating ten pigs worth of bacon. That's silly. Meat is part of the diet but the majority of it is plant matter.
posted by Jalliah at 3:55 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
But that doesn't change the fact that paleolithic peoples had no domesticated livestock, and thus no bacon, and certainly no dairy products.
I don't really want to argue because I don't do paleo anymore but this isn't what it is about at all. Neither did any of the stuff I ever read about say 'you are going to eat exactly the same stuff, in the exact same way as your ancestors did'. It's also hardly about eating ten pigs worth of bacon. That's silly. Meat is part of the diet but the majority of it is plant matter.
posted by Jalliah at 3:55 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
And, yes, there absolutely were humans during the paleolithic period.
posted by Sara C. at 3:55 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Sara C. at 3:55 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
I know shame is a poor motivator; however, it worked for me and it shouldn't be discounted entirely. When I asked "why do I always feel tired and grumpy," the answer I heard, over and over, was, "because you eat like shit, how do you expect to feel?" I started to eat better and now I feel better.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 3:56 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 3:56 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
I call dibs on the copyright for the "Iron Age" diet.
Is that when the tables turn in another decade or so and it's all about carb-loading again?
posted by Sara C. at 3:57 PM on June 1, 2013
Is that when the tables turn in another decade or so and it's all about carb-loading again?
posted by Sara C. at 3:57 PM on June 1, 2013
Why not just go for the epic nitpick and say that no modern-day paleo diet can ever be legitimate due to the extinction of the aurochs? I don't get the need to argue endlessly over the semantics of a thing that might help some people.
posted by elizardbits at 3:58 PM on June 1, 2013 [29 favorites]
posted by elizardbits at 3:58 PM on June 1, 2013 [29 favorites]
Hello, is this the thread where people shout down other people's actual successes in improving their health?
No, this is where we make claims that other people’s decisions about their eating health choices are all about me, trying to make me feel bad or somehow reflecting on me. And how they are stupid jerks for doing that.
I can’t imagine caring about what someone else eats, yet there are people who do.
posted by bongo_x at 4:00 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
No, this is where we make claims that other people’s decisions about their eating health choices are all about me, trying to make me feel bad or somehow reflecting on me. And how they are stupid jerks for doing that.
I can’t imagine caring about what someone else eats, yet there are people who do.
posted by bongo_x at 4:00 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
Some people don't know much about diets and think eating Snackwells and Slimfast is what they should do. Paleo might not be totally the most accurately named diet in the world because of the caveman stuff but it can help people learn what's better to eat.
I tell people I do Paleo and they giggle about cavemen and then I'm like yea but really what I'm doing is avoiding sugar, dairy, grains and also drinking a lot less. I'm also not telling other people they have to do it.
I just don't see what's controversial about that.
posted by sweetkid at 4:00 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
I tell people I do Paleo and they giggle about cavemen and then I'm like yea but really what I'm doing is avoiding sugar, dairy, grains and also drinking a lot less. I'm also not telling other people they have to do it.
I just don't see what's controversial about that.
posted by sweetkid at 4:00 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
I think what bugs me (and possibly others) about calling the paleo diet the paleo diet is that it kind of implies that this is the way things are supposed to be, that it's the True Path and anything else is rubbish and wrong.
It's like if we met aliens and we insisted that our planet be called "Center of the Universe" and the aliens just thought that it was where bacon came from.
posted by FJT at 4:00 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
It's like if we met aliens and we insisted that our planet be called "Center of the Universe" and the aliens just thought that it was where bacon came from.
posted by FJT at 4:00 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
I always assumed they called it the paleo diet to help those doing it to remember to eat mostly unprocessed meat and veg. You'd be shocked how many people don't understand what a carb is.
posted by toerinishuman at 4:00 PM on June 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
posted by toerinishuman at 4:00 PM on June 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
I don't want to start a thing, but...
They wouldn't have had access to animals that produce a lot of fat, with the possible exception of paleolithic arctic peoples and blubber.
Hunter-gatherers actually did have access to a lot fats: mongongo nuts for instance.
posted by wormwood23 at 4:00 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
They wouldn't have had access to animals that produce a lot of fat, with the possible exception of paleolithic arctic peoples and blubber.
Hunter-gatherers actually did have access to a lot fats: mongongo nuts for instance.
posted by wormwood23 at 4:00 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
I think what bugs me (and possibly others) about calling the paleo diet the paleo diet is that it kind of implies that this is the way things are supposed to be, that it's the True Path and anything else is rubbish and wrong.
Right, but as with all social movements, it's the evangelists that are the problem. The relentlessly proselytizing douchebags who smugly tell you that your diet is wrong and stupid and theirs is the way to go. It's not the fad diet's fault that people are annoying.
posted by elizardbits at 4:02 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Right, but as with all social movements, it's the evangelists that are the problem. The relentlessly proselytizing douchebags who smugly tell you that your diet is wrong and stupid and theirs is the way to go. It's not the fad diet's fault that people are annoying.
posted by elizardbits at 4:02 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
and also drinking a lot less.
I don't understand, the words are English but none of this makes sense?
posted by The Whelk at 4:05 PM on June 1, 2013 [20 favorites]
I don't understand, the words are English but none of this makes sense?
posted by The Whelk at 4:05 PM on June 1, 2013 [20 favorites]
What always gets me about these conversations is how much "food is poison" I have to cut through before I get to read interesting and honest discussions about healthy eating. Paleo is no exception.
Food isn't poison. Food is fuel - you just need to figure out how much fuel you need and which kind is best for your particular system.
posted by kariebookish at 4:06 PM on June 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
Food isn't poison. Food is fuel - you just need to figure out how much fuel you need and which kind is best for your particular system.
posted by kariebookish at 4:06 PM on June 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
(Also tbh I'm not sure I understand the parallel you've drawn between calling something a paleo diet and having that phrase exude an air of sublime perfection in all things. There was no toilet paper or internets, that is not the way things are supposed to be.)
posted by elizardbits at 4:06 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by elizardbits at 4:06 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
no modern-day paleo diet can ever be legitimate due to the extinction of the aurochs? I don't get the need to argue endlessly over the semantics of a thing that might help some people.
Because science and facts exist. The paleolithic period is an actual time in the past, when humans existed, and they did and did not behave in certain ways. This is, like, a real thing. You can actually hold up real statements and evaluate them as to whether or not they are true for paleolithic humans.
Frankly I think that if people want to lose weight by eating mostly simply prepared vegetables and lean meat, that's probably a great idea and definitely close enough that I would stop rolling my eyes at the term "paleo". I don't even need said people to eat bugs or raw organ meats or anything "gross".
But I don't get the part where people are all "I replaced the canola oil in this recipe with coconut oil. SO PALEO!" Or, frankly, even the slightly less ignorant people who are all "I decided to go paleo so I could eat more bacon" or whatever. If you're talking about fats, like, at all, it's not a paleo diet. And if you want to eat whatever kind of diet and also eat butter, fine, but just don't call it a paleo diet ok gah
posted by Sara C. at 4:07 PM on June 1, 2013 [13 favorites]
Because science and facts exist. The paleolithic period is an actual time in the past, when humans existed, and they did and did not behave in certain ways. This is, like, a real thing. You can actually hold up real statements and evaluate them as to whether or not they are true for paleolithic humans.
Frankly I think that if people want to lose weight by eating mostly simply prepared vegetables and lean meat, that's probably a great idea and definitely close enough that I would stop rolling my eyes at the term "paleo". I don't even need said people to eat bugs or raw organ meats or anything "gross".
But I don't get the part where people are all "I replaced the canola oil in this recipe with coconut oil. SO PALEO!" Or, frankly, even the slightly less ignorant people who are all "I decided to go paleo so I could eat more bacon" or whatever. If you're talking about fats, like, at all, it's not a paleo diet. And if you want to eat whatever kind of diet and also eat butter, fine, but just don't call it a paleo diet ok gah
posted by Sara C. at 4:07 PM on June 1, 2013 [13 favorites]
Okay, so if it makes you so upset then why not install a greasemonkey script that does a text find and replace and change paleo to whatever you think it should be called? It's a non-dangerous thing people are voluntarily doing to improve their own personal health, it shouldn't matter how stupid the name is.
posted by elizardbits at 4:11 PM on June 1, 2013 [15 favorites]
posted by elizardbits at 4:11 PM on June 1, 2013 [15 favorites]
The paleo diet is now pretty much the hipster of diets.
posted by FJT at 4:11 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by FJT at 4:11 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
This isn't something for hunter-gatherer re-enactment groups. It's based on research on the diets of Trobiand islanders and some Papuan indigenous cultures... but it's meant to find the stuff that works better with human metabolism under conditions of abundance, not play caveman. But everyone snarking has taken the three minutes to review the very well cited wki entry on the paleolithic diet, right? (Actually, reading the "opposing views" section, this is a fairly common phenomenon.)
That said, it does not work for everyone, and especially for those already struggling with morbid obesity, compliance and recidivism will be an issue.
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:11 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
That said, it does not work for everyone, and especially for those already struggling with morbid obesity, compliance and recidivism will be an issue.
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:11 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
It's just a nickname. It's shorthand. It's okay.
posted by bleep at 4:11 PM on June 1, 2013 [14 favorites]
posted by bleep at 4:11 PM on June 1, 2013 [14 favorites]
The so-called "paleo diet" is terrible, terrible, terrible anthropology. I have some in-laws who are super into it, and I was like "How can you claim that potatoes aren't 'paleo' but apples and broccoli and salami are?! If you really want to mimic a caveman diet, you need to be eating insects, honey, and tubers, very occasional 5000-calorie meat binges, and 3 months of probably-fatal malnutrition every winter."
That having been said, when I cut virtually all starches and dairy out of my diet and ate mainly meat, eggs, fish, fruits, and vegetables, I lost a ton of weight and felt fantastic and dropped my cholesterol and blood sugar both into normal ranges. I don't care what you call it, it's definitively a healthier way for me to eat. I stopped for the same reason everyone does, it's expensive and a pain the ass and carbs are incredibly comforting, but my results were really striking.
posted by KathrynT at 4:11 PM on June 1, 2013 [11 favorites]
That having been said, when I cut virtually all starches and dairy out of my diet and ate mainly meat, eggs, fish, fruits, and vegetables, I lost a ton of weight and felt fantastic and dropped my cholesterol and blood sugar both into normal ranges. I don't care what you call it, it's definitively a healthier way for me to eat. I stopped for the same reason everyone does, it's expensive and a pain the ass and carbs are incredibly comforting, but my results were really striking.
posted by KathrynT at 4:11 PM on June 1, 2013 [11 favorites]
a lot fats: mongongo nuts for instance.
Mongongo nuts aren't "fats". They're nuts. Like other nuts, they are oily and introduce (a tiny amount of) fat into the body when eaten. Humans have always eaten substances that have oils/fats as a component. I mean, even the leanest meat has some fat. Nobody is debating whether ancient humans ate foods that contained fat.
This is like right at the heart of why the paleo thing drives me sosososososososososososossososooso crazy as a concept. It encourages people to think of food as "a fat" or "a carb" or "a protein" or whatever when, actually, it's all food.
posted by Sara C. at 4:12 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Mongongo nuts aren't "fats". They're nuts. Like other nuts, they are oily and introduce (a tiny amount of) fat into the body when eaten. Humans have always eaten substances that have oils/fats as a component. I mean, even the leanest meat has some fat. Nobody is debating whether ancient humans ate foods that contained fat.
This is like right at the heart of why the paleo thing drives me sosososososososososososossososooso crazy as a concept. It encourages people to think of food as "a fat" or "a carb" or "a protein" or whatever when, actually, it's all food.
posted by Sara C. at 4:12 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
But I don't get the part where people are all "I replaced the canola oil in this recipe with coconut oil. SO PALEO!" Or, frankly, even the slightly less ignorant people who are all "I decided to go paleo so I could eat more bacon" or whatever. If you're talking about fats, like, at all, it's not a paleo diet. And if you want to eat whatever kind of diet and also eat butter, fine, but just don't call it a paleo diet ok gah
Um okay. Where did I say that I went Paleo so that I could eat more bacon? I didn't. Maybe I wasn't clear. What I meant was that I decided to try it because it was a diet where eating bacon was okay and even though with many of paleo diets I found some butter was okay. "Fat' in Paleo isn't a scary diet word. For many years 'fat' has been made out to be evil. In a paleo diet it's not.
Hence the appeal at the time because I like an odd bit of bacon now and then.
posted by Jalliah at 4:13 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
Um okay. Where did I say that I went Paleo so that I could eat more bacon? I didn't. Maybe I wasn't clear. What I meant was that I decided to try it because it was a diet where eating bacon was okay and even though with many of paleo diets I found some butter was okay. "Fat' in Paleo isn't a scary diet word. For many years 'fat' has been made out to be evil. In a paleo diet it's not.
Hence the appeal at the time because I like an odd bit of bacon now and then.
posted by Jalliah at 4:13 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
It's based on research on the diets of Trobiand islanders and some Papuan indigenous cultures...
I don't think humans had even settled those islands during the paleolithic.
posted by Sara C. at 4:15 PM on June 1, 2013
I don't think humans had even settled those islands during the paleolithic.
posted by Sara C. at 4:15 PM on June 1, 2013
And don't even get me started on "bluegrass" music. The grass is not actually blue, and it unnerves my botanist friends to no end.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:15 PM on June 1, 2013 [46 favorites]
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:15 PM on June 1, 2013 [46 favorites]
There's nothing wrong with eating a diet with lots of meat and little carbs if that's the diet that works for you; it's all the nonsense about it working for you because it was the True Primal Diet that is ridiculous. Drop the woo-woo and the Paleo name and I doubt anyone would even blink.
Or you could start eating roots, insects and larvae, and small game guts and all and calling it Paleo would be less laugh-worthy.
posted by tavella at 4:15 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
Or you could start eating roots, insects and larvae, and small game guts and all and calling it Paleo would be less laugh-worthy.
posted by tavella at 4:15 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
Where did I say that I went Paleo so that I could eat more bacon?
I wasn't talking about you.
posted by Sara C. at 4:15 PM on June 1, 2013
I wasn't talking about you.
posted by Sara C. at 4:15 PM on June 1, 2013
It's just a nickname. It's shorthand. It's okay.
posted by bleep at 7:11 PM on June 1
Yes this. It's a nickname and also when looking up recipes online it's the search term I use so I'll just keep using it.
posted by sweetkid at 4:15 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by bleep at 7:11 PM on June 1
Yes this. It's a nickname and also when looking up recipes online it's the search term I use so I'll just keep using it.
posted by sweetkid at 4:15 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
When a friend passed along that first link to me as a joke, I laughed, but then did (a little) reading up and thought about the Paleo diet and realized it reminds me at least somewhat of the Atkins diet, which was huge about 20 years ago. I remember colleagues raving about how fun it was to eat whole plates of bacon and eggs and Steak-Ums, and how much weight they lost, But I think the Paleo diet might be better about encouraging consumption of vegetables and fruit, which I think maybe the Atkins diet fell down on a little. Anyway, file under "everything old is new again (maybe)."
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 4:17 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 4:17 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Given the utterly obvious fact that different things work for different people, I can't imagine why we bother having these threads at all. I'm not convinced that the basic science of weight-loss is particularly disputable or even interesting, but the process of losing weight is complex and highly dependent on the individual in question. So why can't we just let folk do whatever works for them without perceiving it as a thread to the validity of any theory?
posted by howfar at 4:17 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by howfar at 4:17 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
his is like right at the heart of why the paleo thing drives me sosososososososososososossososooso crazy as a concept. It encourages people to think of food as "a fat" or "a carb" or "a protein" or whatever when, actually, it's all food.
This isn't just a paleo thing. Heck I went to my Dad's diabetic nutrition consulted and it was all about 'fats', 'fibers', 'carb' and 'proteins.' They taught him to read labels to look for these things.
posted by Jalliah at 4:17 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
This isn't just a paleo thing. Heck I went to my Dad's diabetic nutrition consulted and it was all about 'fats', 'fibers', 'carb' and 'proteins.' They taught him to read labels to look for these things.
posted by Jalliah at 4:17 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
I have a tiny picky quasi-semantic point of confusion, and if Metafilter isn't the place for it I don't know what is!
So: I've heard that it is hazardous to have a high-protein and no-fat diet longterm, because that causes some kind of protein-based internal poisoning, throwing all the body's internal filtering and tidying out of whack. Is that true?
And if so, wouldn't the paleo diet have to involve at least some fats, to keep things from going that direction? I'm sure rabbit starvation would be historically accurate, but probably not what the people into the diet are aiming for.
posted by cmyk at 4:18 PM on June 1, 2013
So: I've heard that it is hazardous to have a high-protein and no-fat diet longterm, because that causes some kind of protein-based internal poisoning, throwing all the body's internal filtering and tidying out of whack. Is that true?
And if so, wouldn't the paleo diet have to involve at least some fats, to keep things from going that direction? I'm sure rabbit starvation would be historically accurate, but probably not what the people into the diet are aiming for.
posted by cmyk at 4:18 PM on June 1, 2013
So why can't we just let folk do whatever works for them without perceiving it as a thread to the validity of any theory?
because metafilter
posted by elizardbits at 4:18 PM on June 1, 2013 [19 favorites]
because metafilter
posted by elizardbits at 4:18 PM on June 1, 2013 [19 favorites]
This is like right at the heart of why the paleo thing drives me sosososososososososososossososooso crazy as a concept. It encourages people to think of food as "a fat" or "a carb" or "a protein" or whatever when, actually, it's all food.
Not all food is the same, because not each of those substances go through the same metabolic pathways. Eat 3000 calories of fat, or of carbs, or of proteins, and you'll have fundamentally different effects on both a macro and a micro scale.
posted by effugas at 4:18 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
Not all food is the same, because not each of those substances go through the same metabolic pathways. Eat 3000 calories of fat, or of carbs, or of proteins, and you'll have fundamentally different effects on both a macro and a micro scale.
posted by effugas at 4:18 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
I wasn't talking about you
My apologies then. I assumed you were because I wrote about bacon and butter upthread in a comment you responded too.
posted by Jalliah at 4:19 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
My apologies then. I assumed you were because I wrote about bacon and butter upthread in a comment you responded too.
posted by Jalliah at 4:19 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
It encourages people to think of food as "a fat" or "a carb" or "a protein" or whatever when, actually, it's all food.
Sara C, unfortunately, some people do have to think of food in these terms. As a diabetic, I can't eat a piece of cake without also calculating how many grams of carb are in it. It's nice to think all food is just food, but for people with health issues, food is fat, protein, and carbs no matter what diet they're on. From what I've seen on the internets, a lot of people who go on the paleo diet are trying to lose weight whilst still being healthy.
posted by toerinishuman at 4:20 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
Sara C, unfortunately, some people do have to think of food in these terms. As a diabetic, I can't eat a piece of cake without also calculating how many grams of carb are in it. It's nice to think all food is just food, but for people with health issues, food is fat, protein, and carbs no matter what diet they're on. From what I've seen on the internets, a lot of people who go on the paleo diet are trying to lose weight whilst still being healthy.
posted by toerinishuman at 4:20 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
My problem with this is kind of a problem with the theory at the basis of the diet: that we, as a species, have spent most of our time evolving as hunter-gatherers in the savannah, and so we could be healthier if we still ate like hunter-gatherers in the savannah. Though I think that's right, I also think that it's been a long time since most humans were living that way. (Also, it seems like a safe bet that there have been a lot more humans since we moved to farming than there ever were spearing antelopes on the savannah.)
I think the lifestyle changes are great, and I'm sure they contribute to a lot more health and vitality than, say, sitting in front of the TV watching Breaking Bad. I think the diet reccomendations that some people make (eating a cleaned roasted chicken with none of the guts, eating lean steak and not the brain or heart) is both not in keeping with the theory, and ecologically irresponsible. There are a lot of ways that this just feels like the Atkins diet, re-heated.
... and that's not to crap on the people who were helped by the Atkins Diet either. Healthy, more active, those are great. I naturally see these things as feckless marketing.
posted by wormwood23 at 4:20 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
I think the lifestyle changes are great, and I'm sure they contribute to a lot more health and vitality than, say, sitting in front of the TV watching Breaking Bad. I think the diet reccomendations that some people make (eating a cleaned roasted chicken with none of the guts, eating lean steak and not the brain or heart) is both not in keeping with the theory, and ecologically irresponsible. There are a lot of ways that this just feels like the Atkins diet, re-heated.
... and that's not to crap on the people who were helped by the Atkins Diet either. Healthy, more active, those are great. I naturally see these things as feckless marketing.
posted by wormwood23 at 4:20 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
I just want to be able to have lunch without having to do a quadratic equation in my head. (Fun fact, I have on more than one occasion, decided that figuring out the best possible lunch (least cruel, lest harmful) was too much stress and it was just easier to take fiber pills and vitamins for three days straight - that was SUPER FUN let me tell you).
posted by The Whelk at 4:21 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 4:21 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
So yeah the really convinced paleo folks I've met are pretty nuts. OTOH over the the last couple months I've dropped ludicrously processed carbs and refined sugar and he-llo significant weight loss concurrent with increased strength and muscle definition. OTOOH I'm posting this on the last day of a week's holiday of eating nothing but delicious delicious portuguese pastries and alcohol so what do I know
posted by ominous_paws at 4:22 PM on June 1, 2013
posted by ominous_paws at 4:22 PM on June 1, 2013
and it was just easier to take fiber pills and vitamins for three days straight - that was SUPER FUN let me tell you).
I am the sadist here and I don't recall giving you permission to do that.
posted by localroger at 4:23 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
I am the sadist here and I don't recall giving you permission to do that.
posted by localroger at 4:23 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
think the lifestyle changes are great, and I'm sure they contribute to a lot more health and vitality than, say, sitting in front of the TV watching Breaking Bad. I think the diet reccomendations that some people make (eating a cleaned roasted chicken with none of the guts, eating lean steak and not the brain or heart) is both not in keeping with the theory, and ecologically irresponsible. There are a lot of ways that this just feels like the Atkins diet, re-heated.
The one I mostly followed was actually pretty big on eating the guts. That was the hardest part. I had never eaten offal before but I gave it a whirl. No matter what I tried I couldn't get down with liver or brain. Heart was okay.
posted by Jalliah at 4:23 PM on June 1, 2013
The one I mostly followed was actually pretty big on eating the guts. That was the hardest part. I had never eaten offal before but I gave it a whirl. No matter what I tried I couldn't get down with liver or brain. Heart was okay.
posted by Jalliah at 4:23 PM on June 1, 2013
Is that true?
Probably not, if millions of years of evidence of humans eating basically whatever and mostly not dying a whole lot is worth anything.
We're not such delicate creatures that we need to worry that if anything is a hair out of whack, IMMINENT DOOM.
We're not koalas.
That said, I dunno maybe it fucks with your cholesterol and you have a heart attack at 65. If your doctor thinks a high protein/low carb diet is bad for you, you should listen.
posted by Sara C. at 4:24 PM on June 1, 2013
Probably not, if millions of years of evidence of humans eating basically whatever and mostly not dying a whole lot is worth anything.
We're not such delicate creatures that we need to worry that if anything is a hair out of whack, IMMINENT DOOM.
We're not koalas.
That said, I dunno maybe it fucks with your cholesterol and you have a heart attack at 65. If your doctor thinks a high protein/low carb diet is bad for you, you should listen.
posted by Sara C. at 4:24 PM on June 1, 2013
how many grams of carb are in it.
Yes, but there's a critical difference between "a food that contains X amount of carbohydrates", which is perfectly legitimate if you're trying to control the amount of sugar you eat in order to cope with a health problem, and "don't eat beans, they're all carbs" which is inane bullshit.
posted by Sara C. at 4:26 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Yes, but there's a critical difference between "a food that contains X amount of carbohydrates", which is perfectly legitimate if you're trying to control the amount of sugar you eat in order to cope with a health problem, and "don't eat beans, they're all carbs" which is inane bullshit.
posted by Sara C. at 4:26 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
I had a friend try to convince me to follow a pretty strict paleo diet. I did not. Instead, I compromised: I cut out basically all my bread, and all of potatoes, pasta, rice and similarly starchy stuff, while increasing the amount of meat, fruits and veggies I ate. I feel better, have more energy, and I have actual muscle definition now instead of a generalized Skinny Dude body.
That's the great thing about diets. You can try them out, to varying degrees of adherence and adjustment. If it doesn't work, you can adjust again. Or drop it altogether. I'm not a dogmatic person in general, so even this new diet is balanced with regular and far-spaced breaks with KFC. Which is good for my mental health.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:27 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
That's the great thing about diets. You can try them out, to varying degrees of adherence and adjustment. If it doesn't work, you can adjust again. Or drop it altogether. I'm not a dogmatic person in general, so even this new diet is balanced with regular and far-spaced breaks with KFC. Which is good for my mental health.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:27 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
Sara's probably thinking of a comment I made several paleo-threads-ago about how much weight I lost when we started eating no wheat and a hell of a lot of bacon. Oh bacon. I can't quit you.
That said, it is monstrously expensive to eat so much meat all the time even with the CSA we're in that buys direct from farmers, etc, so we've added in a lot more veg and even some "processed" stuff like kale chips (aka sweet, sweet dehydrator crack).
It is true that my bloodwork improved markedly with the uptick in meaty meat meat meat. Doctor was pretty impressed.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 4:28 PM on June 1, 2013
That said, it is monstrously expensive to eat so much meat all the time even with the CSA we're in that buys direct from farmers, etc, so we've added in a lot more veg and even some "processed" stuff like kale chips (aka sweet, sweet dehydrator crack).
It is true that my bloodwork improved markedly with the uptick in meaty meat meat meat. Doctor was pretty impressed.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 4:28 PM on June 1, 2013
Maybe because like you, some of the people doing paleo don't want to sit there and count everything they're eating, so it's easier to cut out the beans?
posted by toerinishuman at 4:29 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by toerinishuman at 4:29 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
I recently increased the amount of doritos and red meat in my diet and I feel pretty fucking rad so, very obvsly, ymmv.
EAT WHAT YOU LIKE SO LONG AS IT DOESN'T HURT YOU. In the interest of scientific and semantic accuracy we can call this the Yay Diet.
posted by elizardbits at 4:30 PM on June 1, 2013 [15 favorites]
EAT WHAT YOU LIKE SO LONG AS IT DOESN'T HURT YOU. In the interest of scientific and semantic accuracy we can call this the Yay Diet.
posted by elizardbits at 4:30 PM on June 1, 2013 [15 favorites]
I'm not referring to any individual in particular. It's just something that seems to come up in the same breath as paleo, like all the time.
"I'm on a paleo diet. Giving up most starches sucks, but the tradeoff is that I can eat more BACON!!!!!!!!!"
I've heard it a hundred times if I've heard it once.
I mean, eat all the bacon you want, whatever. Eat all the cake or potatoes or wonder bread you want, too. That's also fine.
Just leave paleolithic humans out of it!
posted by Sara C. at 4:31 PM on June 1, 2013
"I'm on a paleo diet. Giving up most starches sucks, but the tradeoff is that I can eat more BACON!!!!!!!!!"
I've heard it a hundred times if I've heard it once.
I mean, eat all the bacon you want, whatever. Eat all the cake or potatoes or wonder bread you want, too. That's also fine.
Just leave paleolithic humans out of it!
posted by Sara C. at 4:31 PM on June 1, 2013
What flavor of Doritos?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:33 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:33 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
elizardbits, you write The Official Yay Diet Book...
...my company will publish it...
...PROFIT! *
* especially since the book will be, like, two pages long. Way to save on print costs! Yay!
posted by bitter-girl.com at 4:33 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
...my company will publish it...
...PROFIT! *
* especially since the book will be, like, two pages long. Way to save on print costs! Yay!
posted by bitter-girl.com at 4:33 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Sadly cool ranch is not considered authentically Neolithic enough so you're stuck with nacho cheeze.
posted by The Whelk at 4:34 PM on June 1, 2013 [7 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 4:34 PM on June 1, 2013 [7 favorites]
toerinishuman - again, I personally don't care what anyone eats or does not eat. I'm not shoving beans down anyone's throat.
But I think that thinking about food in a disordered way -- as "don't ever eat X, it's a Y, and Ys are poison" invariably is -- is probably worse for most people than the tortilla chips and bourbon diet I'm on right now.
(trademark pending. I plan to call it the CORN YAY diet.)
posted by Sara C. at 4:34 PM on June 1, 2013 [9 favorites]
But I think that thinking about food in a disordered way -- as "don't ever eat X, it's a Y, and Ys are poison" invariably is -- is probably worse for most people than the tortilla chips and bourbon diet I'm on right now.
(trademark pending. I plan to call it the CORN YAY diet.)
posted by Sara C. at 4:34 PM on June 1, 2013 [9 favorites]
I am definitely big on the meat, vegitables, and fruits part. But my staple food is the ham, romaine lettuce, onion, and cheese sandwhich. Now, what am I supposed to put all that on if I cut out the bread?!
posted by I-Write-Essays at 4:37 PM on June 1, 2013
posted by I-Write-Essays at 4:37 PM on June 1, 2013
the tortilla chips and bourbon diet I'm on right now.
(actually the most amount of weight I've ever lost, and the speed at which I lost it, was when I was doing grueling physical labor for three hours a day filled with lots and lots of running from place to place - I think I survived on nothing but scotch and raw-egg-beer cause I was too physically tired to chew or think about food anymore.)
posted by The Whelk at 4:37 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
(actually the most amount of weight I've ever lost, and the speed at which I lost it, was when I was doing grueling physical labor for three hours a day filled with lots and lots of running from place to place - I think I survived on nothing but scotch and raw-egg-beer cause I was too physically tired to chew or think about food anymore.)
posted by The Whelk at 4:37 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Which side does this diet come down on regarding the issue of eating the rich?
posted by cjorgensen at 4:38 PM on June 1, 2013 [9 favorites]
posted by cjorgensen at 4:38 PM on June 1, 2013 [9 favorites]
How bout if people don't want to call it the Paleo diet, they just don't, and if you do, you do? I mean Atkins was named after a dude and South Beach after a place.
In other words just like so what we're dummies talking about cavemen but for real so what. Because feckless marketing?
posted by sweetkid at 4:38 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
In other words just like so what we're dummies talking about cavemen but for real so what. Because feckless marketing?
posted by sweetkid at 4:38 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
Now, what am I supposed to put all that on if I cut out the bread?!
You're supposed to do this soul-crushing bullshit thing where you wrap sammich innards up in a piece of lettuce and pretend it is delicious instead of riddled with existential darkness.
posted by elizardbits at 4:39 PM on June 1, 2013 [39 favorites]
You're supposed to do this soul-crushing bullshit thing where you wrap sammich innards up in a piece of lettuce and pretend it is delicious instead of riddled with existential darkness.
posted by elizardbits at 4:39 PM on June 1, 2013 [39 favorites]
I'm not referring to any individual in particular.
So, you're not upset at anyone in particular, but you are gonna beat this horse til its dead and the paleos swoop in to eat it? Because it's clear, the name makes you twitch. I get that in the interest of historical accuracy, it's not great, but does that really matter at all? I don't think anyone really thinks "hey I'm eating like a caveman" while they're spreading almond butter on a hunk of apple. and even if they do, so fucking what?
posted by donnagirl at 4:39 PM on June 1, 2013 [7 favorites]
So, you're not upset at anyone in particular, but you are gonna beat this horse til its dead and the paleos swoop in to eat it? Because it's clear, the name makes you twitch. I get that in the interest of historical accuracy, it's not great, but does that really matter at all? I don't think anyone really thinks "hey I'm eating like a caveman" while they're spreading almond butter on a hunk of apple. and even if they do, so fucking what?
posted by donnagirl at 4:39 PM on June 1, 2013 [7 favorites]
So, does anyone have anything to say about whether Paleolithic humans actually ate the Paleo diet, because I don't think we've covered that quite enough yet
posted by downing street memo at 4:40 PM on June 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
posted by downing street memo at 4:40 PM on June 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
In all seriousness -- and this is totally not to harsh on ANYONE's diet that works for them -- I spent two months at the beginning of the year frantically trying to cut X and Y out of my diet, assuming that I would drastically lose weight with no real effort if only I eliminated alcohol or processed carbs or whatever. I actually put on more weight. Then I started using a calorie counting app and have dropped about 8 pounds over the past couple months, just based on more process oriented stuff like "am I really hungry right now?". It's not drastic, and it's not perfect, but I still get to eat nachos so it works for me.
posted by Sara C. at 4:40 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by Sara C. at 4:40 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
wrapping a sandwich is lettuce is the modern equivalent of bathing in just 4 inches of water and pretending it's just as good.
It's not. Go make a salad not this mutant Cosmo-tips nonsense no one actually enjoys.
posted by The Whelk at 4:40 PM on June 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
It's not. Go make a salad not this mutant Cosmo-tips nonsense no one actually enjoys.
posted by The Whelk at 4:40 PM on June 1, 2013 [8 favorites]
I mean Atkins was named after a dude and South Beach after a place.
And before either those or Paleo there was Life Without Bread, the book which probably saved my life.
posted by localroger at 4:42 PM on June 1, 2013
And before either those or Paleo there was Life Without Bread, the book which probably saved my life.
posted by localroger at 4:42 PM on June 1, 2013
for real so what
So some of us actually majored in stuff like "what did paleolithic peoples eat" in college and it gets us all twitchy probably the same way it gets English majors all twitchy when people don't understand the nuances of what a haiku actually is.
posted by Sara C. at 4:42 PM on June 1, 2013 [12 favorites]
So some of us actually majored in stuff like "what did paleolithic peoples eat" in college and it gets us all twitchy probably the same way it gets English majors all twitchy when people don't understand the nuances of what a haiku actually is.
posted by Sara C. at 4:42 PM on June 1, 2013 [12 favorites]
and also drinking a lot less.
I don't understand, the words are English but none of this makes sense?
That's my normal response, too, but I have to say that cutting out the drinking has a huge effect on weight, at least for me.
After losing 50 lbs. and keeping it off for a few years by cutting sugar and other carbs, I decided I wanted to lose another 20 to get to a 'normal' weight according to BMI. I was drinking high-alcohol (12%) beer, maybe two bottles a night on two or three nights a week. It turns out that those two bottles contain ~700 calories together...!
Since quitting the beer I've lost another 12 lbs. in about two weeks... and that's eating basically whatever I want, minus the beer.
posted by Huck500 at 4:42 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
I don't understand, the words are English but none of this makes sense?
That's my normal response, too, but I have to say that cutting out the drinking has a huge effect on weight, at least for me.
After losing 50 lbs. and keeping it off for a few years by cutting sugar and other carbs, I decided I wanted to lose another 20 to get to a 'normal' weight according to BMI. I was drinking high-alcohol (12%) beer, maybe two bottles a night on two or three nights a week. It turns out that those two bottles contain ~700 calories together...!
Since quitting the beer I've lost another 12 lbs. in about two weeks... and that's eating basically whatever I want, minus the beer.
posted by Huck500 at 4:42 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
My biggest problem with the "paleo" diet besides the terrible name is the assholes who are supposed to be my friends who keep telling me "for my own good" that if I followed their diet it would cure my inflammatory arthritis. I am fine with people eating whatever they want, and even with them calling it a stupid, ascientific name, but I am so incredibly sick of them telling me all about how my arthritis is my own fault because I eat "poison". I have an inherited genetic malfunction of my immune system that is well managed by medication. I am not being "poisoned" by perfectly good food.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:44 PM on June 1, 2013 [13 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 4:44 PM on June 1, 2013 [13 favorites]
"
Since quitting the beer I've lost another 12 lbs. in about two weeks..."
Isn't that what clear liquors are for?
posted by The Whelk at 4:44 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
Since quitting the beer I've lost another 12 lbs. in about two weeks..."
Isn't that what clear liquors are for?
posted by The Whelk at 4:44 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
So some of us actually majored in stuff like "what did paleolithic peoples eat" in college and it gets us all twitchy probably the same way it gets English majors all twitchy when people don't understand the nuances of what a haiku actually is.
Seriously dude, it's a minimal heuristic based on the popular conception of the "caveman". Give it a rest.
posted by downing street memo at 4:45 PM on June 1, 2013 [11 favorites]
Seriously dude, it's a minimal heuristic based on the popular conception of the "caveman". Give it a rest.
posted by downing street memo at 4:45 PM on June 1, 2013 [11 favorites]
English majors all twitchy when people don't understand the nuances of what a haiku actually is
it's japanese though
posted by elizardbits at 4:46 PM on June 1, 2013 [19 favorites]
it's japanese though
posted by elizardbits at 4:46 PM on June 1, 2013 [19 favorites]
I can't even imagine a diet that contains alcohol in it. I have never been much of an alcohol drinker, and any time I drink as much as a single beer, I spend the next day or two mentally damaged, even though I properly hydrate. It has nothing to do with hangover, so I doubt the people who have developed tolerance for alcohol are getting a better deal. I just feel my system is completely depressed.
posted by I-Write-Essays at 4:46 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by I-Write-Essays at 4:46 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
So some of us actually majored in stuff like "what did paleolithic peoples eat" in college and it gets us all twitchy probably the same way it gets English majors all twitchy when people don't understand the nuances of what a haiku actually is.
Great but I am for real not going to stop calling it that. I was an English major and wouldn't be able to look at Facebook if I felt like I had to police how people use language and don't even get me started on that This is Water video.
posted by sweetkid at 4:47 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
I am not being "poisoned" by perfectly good food.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. I tried cutting out all the traditional triggers but the only thing that shut my gout down was low-carb. I was poisioning myself with "perfectly good" food.
posted by localroger at 4:48 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't be so sure of that. I tried cutting out all the traditional triggers but the only thing that shut my gout down was low-carb. I was poisioning myself with "perfectly good" food.
posted by localroger at 4:48 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
The real question is, is living an extra 15 years without pain worth giving up alcohol?
posted by toerinishuman at 4:50 PM on June 1, 2013
posted by toerinishuman at 4:50 PM on June 1, 2013
ermm... people getting all intense about how it is not good paleoanthropology??? sigh.. I hear the familiar refrain, "back off man, I'm a Scientist!" definitely a big strawman here... (and maybe somebody needs to get a life....) Also, (only a head-up-the-ass elitist naive academic would argue this particular angle..) the point is not about just surviving to pass on genes... it's about trying to maintain good health long beyond that point. Is that a bad thing?
posted by anguspodgorny at 4:50 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by anguspodgorny at 4:50 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
I'm eating sushi* at my desk, and after reading this thread I feel like I'm playing Russian Roulette
(It's brown rice, tho so, maybe I'll live to see another day?)
posted by The Whelk at 4:50 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
(It's brown rice, tho so, maybe I'll live to see another day?)
posted by The Whelk at 4:50 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
> What was the life expectancy of our Paleo forbears?
Didn't Adam live to be 900 or something?
posted by I-Write-Essays at 4:50 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Didn't Adam live to be 900 or something?
posted by I-Write-Essays at 4:50 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
What was the life expectancy of our Paleo forbears?
Hard to speak for them, but the Mongols who ate pretty much nothing but meat and dairy were shocked at the frailness and short lives of the Europeans who they encountered. If they didn't die in battle they tended to live past seventy with regularity.
posted by localroger at 4:50 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Hard to speak for them, but the Mongols who ate pretty much nothing but meat and dairy were shocked at the frailness and short lives of the Europeans who they encountered. If they didn't die in battle they tended to live past seventy with regularity.
posted by localroger at 4:50 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
I am not being "poisoned" by perfectly good food.
I wouldn't be so sure of that. I tried cutting out all the traditional triggers but the only thing that shut my gout down was low-carb. I was poisining myself with "perfectly good" food.
Yes, but is gout the same as arthritis? I've always heard of gout as being the "rich man's disease" because it is directly linked to (over-) consumption of "rich" (fatty or sugary) foods, but arthritis is an autoimmune disease, isn't it?
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 4:51 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
I wouldn't be so sure of that. I tried cutting out all the traditional triggers but the only thing that shut my gout down was low-carb. I was poisining myself with "perfectly good" food.
Yes, but is gout the same as arthritis? I've always heard of gout as being the "rich man's disease" because it is directly linked to (over-) consumption of "rich" (fatty or sugary) foods, but arthritis is an autoimmune disease, isn't it?
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 4:51 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
I wouldn't be so sure of that. I tried cutting out all the traditional triggers but the only thing that shut my gout down was low-carb. I was poisining myself with "perfectly good" food.
That's great for you, but it does not apply to the stated situation of the OP of the comment to which you are replying. In fact, what you're doing is specifically what the OP of that comment was saying that they hate having done to them - having their diet policed by someone who doesn't know anything about their personal situation.
posted by elizardbits at 4:51 PM on June 1, 2013 [18 favorites]
That's great for you, but it does not apply to the stated situation of the OP of the comment to which you are replying. In fact, what you're doing is specifically what the OP of that comment was saying that they hate having done to them - having their diet policed by someone who doesn't know anything about their personal situation.
posted by elizardbits at 4:51 PM on June 1, 2013 [18 favorites]
is living an extra 15 years without pain worth giving up alcohol?
I find alcohol a necessary part of my low-carb diet because since the fucking steroid pills diet alone doesn't keep my fasting glucose down. Alcohol makes your blood sugar go down, not up. Alcohol may be technically a carb but it's not processed like the rest of them and it is in fact a drug which reduces your liver's tendency to produce excess Bg at night.
posted by localroger at 4:52 PM on June 1, 2013
I find alcohol a necessary part of my low-carb diet because since the fucking steroid pills diet alone doesn't keep my fasting glucose down. Alcohol makes your blood sugar go down, not up. Alcohol may be technically a carb but it's not processed like the rest of them and it is in fact a drug which reduces your liver's tendency to produce excess Bg at night.
posted by localroger at 4:52 PM on June 1, 2013
The real problem is people who eat paleo diets without a hat on. What are you, not neanderthals?
posted by ericost at 4:53 PM on June 1, 2013
posted by ericost at 4:53 PM on June 1, 2013
Sadly cool ranch is not considered authentically Neolithic enough so you're stuck with nacho cheeze.
Cool Ranch goes by Cool American here, which for reasons of vanity precludes me from buying it.
The "poisoned food" umbrella is pretty wide, covering everything from processed food to allergies to superstition and untruths. My totally anecdotal approach has been to put my food budget first, then consider that certain additives are probably bad for me or at most have no real value even in terms of flavor.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:53 PM on June 1, 2013
Cool Ranch goes by Cool American here, which for reasons of vanity precludes me from buying it.
The "poisoned food" umbrella is pretty wide, covering everything from processed food to allergies to superstition and untruths. My totally anecdotal approach has been to put my food budget first, then consider that certain additives are probably bad for me or at most have no real value even in terms of flavor.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 4:53 PM on June 1, 2013
In fact, what you're doing is specifically what the OP of that comment was saying that they hate having done to them - having their diet policed by someone who doesn't know anything about their personal situation.
I really don't understand what you mean by this since the only person policing my diet was me, with my glucose meter in hand. Believe me it was ALL about my personal situation and if it hadn't worked so well I'd have walked away from it eight years ago.
posted by localroger at 4:53 PM on June 1, 2013
I really don't understand what you mean by this since the only person policing my diet was me, with my glucose meter in hand. Believe me it was ALL about my personal situation and if it hadn't worked so well I'd have walked away from it eight years ago.
posted by localroger at 4:53 PM on June 1, 2013
Sure, Paleo comes packaged with a lot of prehistoric woo, but you know what? There are *lots* of people who need a bit of woo in order to buy in to something and give it their full attention. Don't worry, the woo is not the active ingredient. I don't care if they call it the Holy Savior Diet which only allows foods that were present at the Last Supper, if it helps people become more mindful of nutrition and start spending more time considering what they eat than time spent waiting in drive through lines.
When fad diets work for some people and not for others, it's because it combines some good practices with some bad ones, in a manner where the good outweighs the bad for some people. Like, if there was a macrobiotic diet that also mandated smoking a daily cigar. Then we discover that cigars aren't healthy, look at all the people on this diet dying of cancer, so macrobiotic diets get tainted by association.
Personally I've been doing a keto (ketogenic, aka LCHF) diet, because the science aspect is the flavor of woo that works for me. It's supposedly the active ingredient common to Atkins, South Beach, and Paleo, without the woo and trying not to rely on magic thinking. Still, some people refuse to let go of woo, and start believing that you can violate 'calories in = calories out' just by eating magic keto foods. Don't tell them that it's effectively a really comfortable appetite suppressant, and their calorie [kcal to be pedantic] intake will decline as their appetite goes down, resulting in weight loss. Let them stick to their woo and keep mocking calories; it doesn't matter as long as the end result is that they are eating healthier -- look at the Dorito taco monstrosity they'd be eating otherwise.
PS. I'm really digging on the science that's come out in the last few years. Did you know there are papers that claim to have figured out roughly how many kcal a pound of fat cells can release in a day? Explains a lot about varying rate that different people can burn off fat.
posted by ceribus peribus at 4:55 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
When fad diets work for some people and not for others, it's because it combines some good practices with some bad ones, in a manner where the good outweighs the bad for some people. Like, if there was a macrobiotic diet that also mandated smoking a daily cigar. Then we discover that cigars aren't healthy, look at all the people on this diet dying of cancer, so macrobiotic diets get tainted by association.
Personally I've been doing a keto (ketogenic, aka LCHF) diet, because the science aspect is the flavor of woo that works for me. It's supposedly the active ingredient common to Atkins, South Beach, and Paleo, without the woo and trying not to rely on magic thinking. Still, some people refuse to let go of woo, and start believing that you can violate 'calories in = calories out' just by eating magic keto foods. Don't tell them that it's effectively a really comfortable appetite suppressant, and their calorie [kcal to be pedantic] intake will decline as their appetite goes down, resulting in weight loss. Let them stick to their woo and keep mocking calories; it doesn't matter as long as the end result is that they are eating healthier -- look at the Dorito taco monstrosity they'd be eating otherwise.
PS. I'm really digging on the science that's come out in the last few years. Did you know there are papers that claim to have figured out roughly how many kcal a pound of fat cells can release in a day? Explains a lot about varying rate that different people can burn off fat.
posted by ceribus peribus at 4:55 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't be so sure of that. I tried cutting out all the traditional triggers but the only thing that shut my gout down was low-carb. I was poisining myself with "perfectly good" food.
For me a glass of milk or too much ice cream acts in a way that I would consider a 'poison'. I don't have a typical lactose response but it makes me feel like I'm stoned. I get groggy and I can't think properly, feel generally crappy and then want to sleep. It's bizarre. Milk products like cheese, butter and yogurt are fine. I grew up drinking milk every day and it wasn't until I moved out and stopped drinking milk because of the expense that I figured it out. Whenever I came home for dinner I ended up feeling like crap. The only difference was the milk. So I tested it and haven't had a glass of milk since.
posted by Jalliah at 4:55 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
For me a glass of milk or too much ice cream acts in a way that I would consider a 'poison'. I don't have a typical lactose response but it makes me feel like I'm stoned. I get groggy and I can't think properly, feel generally crappy and then want to sleep. It's bizarre. Milk products like cheese, butter and yogurt are fine. I grew up drinking milk every day and it wasn't until I moved out and stopped drinking milk because of the expense that I figured it out. Whenever I came home for dinner I ended up feeling like crap. The only difference was the milk. So I tested it and haven't had a glass of milk since.
posted by Jalliah at 4:55 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
The real problem is people who eat paleo diets without a hat on. What are you, not neanderthals?
Wait is this indoors because
posted by sweetkid at 4:56 PM on June 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
Wait is this indoors because
posted by sweetkid at 4:56 PM on June 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
Yes, but is gout the same as arthritis?
Gout is a form of arthritis. All forms of arthritis are automimmune reactions. Gout is specifically different though because it is triggered by lifestiyle factors particular to people who were rich in the Middle Ages.
posted by localroger at 4:58 PM on June 1, 2013
Gout is a form of arthritis. All forms of arthritis are automimmune reactions. Gout is specifically different though because it is triggered by lifestiyle factors particular to people who were rich in the Middle Ages.
posted by localroger at 4:58 PM on June 1, 2013
I don't care if they call it the Holy Savior Diet
Gah, Nothing but fish and wine this is worse then eating at Gweneth Paltrow's house.
posted by The Whelk at 4:59 PM on June 1, 2013 [10 favorites]
Gah, Nothing but fish and wine this is worse then eating at Gweneth Paltrow's house.
posted by The Whelk at 4:59 PM on June 1, 2013 [10 favorites]
I don't have a typical lactose response
Between total fail and no problem there is certainly a range of still problematic. My own blood sugar situation, which wouldn't be diagnosed by a lot of doctors even today, is similar.
posted by localroger at 4:59 PM on June 1, 2013
Between total fail and no problem there is certainly a range of still problematic. My own blood sugar situation, which wouldn't be diagnosed by a lot of doctors even today, is similar.
posted by localroger at 4:59 PM on June 1, 2013
What was the life expectancy of our Paleo forbears?
About 35 years.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 5:01 PM on June 1, 2013
About 35 years.
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 5:01 PM on June 1, 2013
About 35 years.
I remember reading that such short reported life spans were the result of accounting for high infant mortality, rather than people living on average for 35 years. Which is not to say they didn't have a shorter life expectancy that we do today.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 5:04 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
I remember reading that such short reported life spans were the result of accounting for high infant mortality, rather than people living on average for 35 years. Which is not to say they didn't have a shorter life expectancy that we do today.
posted by C'est la D.C. at 5:04 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
The Perfect Health diet builds on Paleo but relies on research to focus on non-inflammatory foods.
posted by mecran01 at 5:06 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by mecran01 at 5:06 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
I like the Compassionate Diet- eat what you want until you're not hungry, then donate the money you would have spent on the other bullshit to feeding other people until they're not hungry.
posted by Mooski at 5:13 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Mooski at 5:13 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
"the entire field of nutrition has been a pseudoscience for at least the last fifty years"
This will be the case as long as corporate dollars fund nutrition research.
posted by Monkey0nCrack at 5:15 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
This will be the case as long as corporate dollars fund nutrition research.
posted by Monkey0nCrack at 5:15 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yeah, ancient hunter gatherers apparently had perfectly ordinary lifespans. I don't know that there were a ton of centenarians or anything, but yeah, aside from infant mortality and the odd natural disaster, it was a pretty OK life.
Certainly the availability and quality of food wasn't what was going to kill you.
posted by Sara C. at 5:15 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Certainly the availability and quality of food wasn't what was going to kill you.
posted by Sara C. at 5:15 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Yes, but is gout the same as arthritis?
Gout is a form of arthritis. All forms of arthritis are automimmune reactions. Gout is specifically different though because it is triggered by lifestiyle factors particular to people who were rich in the Middle Ages.
Thanks for that explanation; I didn't know that. And not to cross examine you, but because I do wonder about the answer: can you expand on why if, as you say, gout is unique among ("specifically different") all types of arthritis because it is aggravated by dietary choices -- I'm assuming that's what you mean by "lifestyle factors" of mediaeval rich people, as opposed to falconry or oppressing serfs -- that dietary choices will aggravate other forms of non-gout arthritis? Thanks, and please read all of the above charitably and as snark-free as I intended.
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 5:19 PM on June 1, 2013
Gout is a form of arthritis. All forms of arthritis are automimmune reactions. Gout is specifically different though because it is triggered by lifestiyle factors particular to people who were rich in the Middle Ages.
Thanks for that explanation; I didn't know that. And not to cross examine you, but because I do wonder about the answer: can you expand on why if, as you say, gout is unique among ("specifically different") all types of arthritis because it is aggravated by dietary choices -- I'm assuming that's what you mean by "lifestyle factors" of mediaeval rich people, as opposed to falconry or oppressing serfs -- that dietary choices will aggravate other forms of non-gout arthritis? Thanks, and please read all of the above charitably and as snark-free as I intended.
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 5:19 PM on June 1, 2013
So, I tend to have an instinctive eyeroll response at the "how our ancestors ate!" justification for paleo--it's just too much of an ev-bio just-so-story for me to take seriously--but I don't doubt that there are people who benefit from a paleo-style diet, and good for them for finding something that makes them feel good. There's a lot that's wonky in how we understand and diagnose gastrointestinal and metabolic issues, and as long as someone's not cutting out food groups to the point of medical malnutrition, I don't understand this tendency to look down on people who choose to follow a specialized diet that makes them feel better. I can't really imagine cutting out all carbs or legumes or whatever unless the alternative was really making me feel awful, so I tend to take people at their face value when they say they're getting some benefit from this. (I say this as someone who's literally consumed nothing but pizza, Rolling Rock, and coffee in the last 48 hours.)
posted by kagredon at 5:22 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by kagredon at 5:22 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
FYI World! There are several types of arthritis!
Osteoarthritis is a degenerative form of arthritis due to wear and tear, the kind that older people tend to have. It is not caused by your diet.
Gout is caused by the build up of uric acid in your joints from your diet. The tendency to develop gout seems to be inheritable, but gout itself seems to be strongly related to diet.
Inflammatory arthritis is an umbrella term used to describe joint inflammation due to auto-immune conditions. The two most common forms of inflammatory are rheumatoid arthritis and spondylitis. Spondylitis is itself an umbrella term covering a group of related, heritable conditions, including ankylosing spondylitis, psoriatic arthritis, and enteropathic arthritis. Those arthritides in turn are also genetically linked to the skin condition psoriasis and the inflammatory bowel diseases Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis. The latter bowel conditions affect the guts and thus are managed by diet, but there is no evidence that they are caused by diet or can be "cured" by diet.
Auto-immune means the disease is caused by a malfunction of the immune system in which the immune system begins to attack the body itself. Other common auto-immune diseases include Type I diabetes, lupus, and multiple sclerosis. There is no published scientific evidence linking the triggering or "curing" of any of those or any inflammatory arthritis to diet (yes, Type I diabetics have to manage their diet, but that's because their immune system damaged their pancreas, not because diet is actually related to the development of their coniditon).
If you do not know these things, and for that matter, if you do not have a MD and are not a board certified rheumatologist, I'm really not interested in your opinion of my diet.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:29 PM on June 1, 2013 [19 favorites]
Osteoarthritis is a degenerative form of arthritis due to wear and tear, the kind that older people tend to have. It is not caused by your diet.
Gout is caused by the build up of uric acid in your joints from your diet. The tendency to develop gout seems to be inheritable, but gout itself seems to be strongly related to diet.
Inflammatory arthritis is an umbrella term used to describe joint inflammation due to auto-immune conditions. The two most common forms of inflammatory are rheumatoid arthritis and spondylitis. Spondylitis is itself an umbrella term covering a group of related, heritable conditions, including ankylosing spondylitis, psoriatic arthritis, and enteropathic arthritis. Those arthritides in turn are also genetically linked to the skin condition psoriasis and the inflammatory bowel diseases Crohn's disease and ulcerative colitis. The latter bowel conditions affect the guts and thus are managed by diet, but there is no evidence that they are caused by diet or can be "cured" by diet.
Auto-immune means the disease is caused by a malfunction of the immune system in which the immune system begins to attack the body itself. Other common auto-immune diseases include Type I diabetes, lupus, and multiple sclerosis. There is no published scientific evidence linking the triggering or "curing" of any of those or any inflammatory arthritis to diet (yes, Type I diabetics have to manage their diet, but that's because their immune system damaged their pancreas, not because diet is actually related to the development of their coniditon).
If you do not know these things, and for that matter, if you do not have a MD and are not a board certified rheumatologist, I'm really not interested in your opinion of my diet.
posted by hydropsyche at 5:29 PM on June 1, 2013 [19 favorites]
This isn't something for hunter-gatherer re-enactment groups. It's based on research on the diets of Trobiand islanders and some Papuan indigenous cultures...
If that's the case, then we're going to have to start eating a whole lot more yam and sago.
And remember- Pork! Pork! Pork!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:33 PM on June 1, 2013
If that's the case, then we're going to have to start eating a whole lot more yam and sago.
And remember- Pork! Pork! Pork!
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 5:33 PM on June 1, 2013
Sago is not the only thing you might need to think about eating. As with so many contentious subjects, poor branding seems to be the cause of a lot of knee jerk reactions.
posted by feloniousmonk at 5:36 PM on June 1, 2013
posted by feloniousmonk at 5:36 PM on June 1, 2013
In fact, what you're doing is specifically what the OP of that comment was saying that they hate having done to them - having their diet policed by someone who doesn't know anything about their personal situation.
I really don't understand what you mean by this since the only person policing my diet was me, with my glucose meter in hand. Believe me it was ALL about my personal situation and if it hadn't worked so well I'd have walked away from it eight years ago.
Seriously? Do you actually not understand how saying "but are you sure" to hydropsyche's comment about well-meaning people policing their diet is kind of shitty, or are you playing dumb here?
posted by kagredon at 5:41 PM on June 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
There are a lot of ways that this just feels like the Atkins diet, re-heated.
I seem to remember, though, people back then were shocked, offended, and insane-o-screaming horrified at the idea that you could eat a healthy diet that didn't involve drastic reductions in meat and fat. That's not so controversial anymore, so maybe people decided to take Atkins and jazz it up with some armchair anthropology.
posted by fleacircus at 5:41 PM on June 1, 2013
I seem to remember, though, people back then were shocked, offended, and insane-o-screaming horrified at the idea that you could eat a healthy diet that didn't involve drastic reductions in meat and fat. That's not so controversial anymore, so maybe people decided to take Atkins and jazz it up with some armchair anthropology.
posted by fleacircus at 5:41 PM on June 1, 2013
Sara C,
According to Fat Secret, black beans are 3% fat, 71% carbs, 26% protein. Lima beans are 3% fat, 76% carbs, 21% protein. Refried beans are 32% fat, 51% carbs, 17% protein.
So, you're right, beans aren't all carbs, but they're often mostly carbs.
I don't have any problem with people saying, "Why do we have to include paleolithic humans in this?". But, carb reduction is pretty much the reliable theme to all of these diets, and that means reducing caloric load from high carb sources.
posted by effugas at 5:41 PM on June 1, 2013
According to Fat Secret, black beans are 3% fat, 71% carbs, 26% protein. Lima beans are 3% fat, 76% carbs, 21% protein. Refried beans are 32% fat, 51% carbs, 17% protein.
So, you're right, beans aren't all carbs, but they're often mostly carbs.
I don't have any problem with people saying, "Why do we have to include paleolithic humans in this?". But, carb reduction is pretty much the reliable theme to all of these diets, and that means reducing caloric load from high carb sources.
posted by effugas at 5:41 PM on June 1, 2013
Eh. I play with an 80/20 Paleo diet and I've lost 40 pounds in about two years. I'm aiming for permanent weight loss, so it works for me. YMMV.
posted by Auguris at 5:42 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Auguris at 5:42 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
*Trobriand Islanders and Papuans*? Is that the latest claim? To support a *low carb* diet? Trobrianders eat one of the highest carb diets in the world!
posted by tavella at 5:46 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by tavella at 5:46 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Since quitting the beer I've lost another 12 lbs. in about two weeks
I am confident you didn't lose 12 lbs in two weeks. Was that a typo for 1-2 pounds? Or...?
posted by Justinian at 5:47 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
I am confident you didn't lose 12 lbs in two weeks. Was that a typo for 1-2 pounds? Or...?
posted by Justinian at 5:47 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
No matter what kind of food you eat, if you spent every single day walking around the entire time, looking for something to eat, as paleolithic humans probably did, and probably not getting enough to eat most of the time, you would probably lose some weight and be in amazing shape.
posted by freakazoid at 5:47 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by freakazoid at 5:47 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
I doubt he burned 12lbs of fat in that time (assuming he weighs less than 500lbs), but a person can lose 12lbs on the scale in two weeks, sure. Changes in water and glucose retention can easily cover that spread.
posted by ceribus peribus at 5:52 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by ceribus peribus at 5:52 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Some people really, really, really don't like fiber or carbs in general. As Konstantin Monastyrsky puts it, "Strange, but true — the content of your toilet bowl predicts your future with more certainty than a crystal ball. With that in mind, read up, look down, and stay well!"
posted by leftcoastbob at 5:53 PM on June 1, 2013
posted by leftcoastbob at 5:53 PM on June 1, 2013
As with so many contentious subjects, poor branding seems to be the cause of a lot of knee jerk reactions.
Probably. To the extent that even most who subscribe to something as apparently broad as "paleo" believe this? That I'm not entirely sure of.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:54 PM on June 1, 2013
Probably. To the extent that even most who subscribe to something as apparently broad as "paleo" believe this? That I'm not entirely sure of.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 5:54 PM on June 1, 2013
The great thing about the Paleo diet is that you can eat all the bacon you want, just like the cavemen did!
posted by bongo_x at 5:55 PM on June 1, 2013
posted by bongo_x at 5:55 PM on June 1, 2013
I stopped saying "paleo" because it seemed to give my co-workers a green-light to make noises whenever I would forego my usual leftovers for lunch and hit up the taco truck. Now I just say I don't eat bread because I don't really like it. I think what rankles people is the possibility that you might have more will power than them and are lording it over them. So i just state it as a preference and all is well.
posted by Space Coyote at 6:00 PM on June 1, 2013 [12 favorites]
posted by Space Coyote at 6:00 PM on June 1, 2013 [12 favorites]
effugas, first - eponysterical kudos for your comment on beans.
Second, your figures for carbs in beans may be inflated, because (as the link you provide corroborates in the fine print) about 1/3 of the carbs in beans are dietary fiber, which is not a source of calories or otherwise taken into your bloodstream, etc. (or so I've been led to believe). Maybe no need to cut beans out of the diet, even a paleo-influenced one?
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 6:00 PM on June 1, 2013
Second, your figures for carbs in beans may be inflated, because (as the link you provide corroborates in the fine print) about 1/3 of the carbs in beans are dietary fiber, which is not a source of calories or otherwise taken into your bloodstream, etc. (or so I've been led to believe). Maybe no need to cut beans out of the diet, even a paleo-influenced one?
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 6:00 PM on June 1, 2013
No elizardbits just wrap your sandwich in salami then everything is ok again!
I'm pretty interested in what other people eat, that is, I'm always really fascinated by the stuff the person ahead of me at the grocery store is buying, but I don't get too upset about it unless they got the last package of frozen waffles, if there was a frozen waffle diet I would go on it.
I know a girl on the paleo diet. She's really into it. I'm glad she has found a way to occupy herself that she seems to enjoy. I personally like carbs so damn the consequences.
posted by windykites at 6:04 PM on June 1, 2013
I'm pretty interested in what other people eat, that is, I'm always really fascinated by the stuff the person ahead of me at the grocery store is buying, but I don't get too upset about it unless they got the last package of frozen waffles, if there was a frozen waffle diet I would go on it.
I know a girl on the paleo diet. She's really into it. I'm glad she has found a way to occupy herself that she seems to enjoy. I personally like carbs so damn the consequences.
posted by windykites at 6:04 PM on June 1, 2013
I think what rankles people is the possibility that you might have more will power than them and are lording it over them.
Actually, what rankles people is your ignoring the possibility that they might understand their own bodies and their own dietary needs better than you do, indeed the possibility that different foods might work for different people and there is no one perfect diet for everybody.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:06 PM on June 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
Actually, what rankles people is your ignoring the possibility that they might understand their own bodies and their own dietary needs better than you do, indeed the possibility that different foods might work for different people and there is no one perfect diet for everybody.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:06 PM on June 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
> As with so many contentious subjects, poor branding seems to be the cause of a lot of knee jerk reactions.
The paleo branding has been wildly successful. The backlash is to be expected, but it's only in proportion to how many other people speak positively about it. As a name it's got a stickiness that "no processed food, no grains, lots of vegetables etc. etc." can't swing. I still don't know what people from South Beach eat, so by comparison that diet's branding isn't as good.
posted by Space Coyote at 6:07 PM on June 1, 2013
The paleo branding has been wildly successful. The backlash is to be expected, but it's only in proportion to how many other people speak positively about it. As a name it's got a stickiness that "no processed food, no grains, lots of vegetables etc. etc." can't swing. I still don't know what people from South Beach eat, so by comparison that diet's branding isn't as good.
posted by Space Coyote at 6:07 PM on June 1, 2013
> Actually, what rankles people is your ignoring the possibility that they might understand their own bodies and their own dietary needs better than you do, indeed the possibility that different foods might work for different people and there is no one perfect diet for everybody.
Vegetarians and vegans get a similar negative reaction, I got the same reaction when I didn't drink to telling people as much. I used to give people crap for being obsessive gym-goers. Because we're all kind of immature and we don't like it when we think someone else is trying too hard at something we don't care about. Human nature, yo.
posted by Space Coyote at 6:11 PM on June 1, 2013 [7 favorites]
Vegetarians and vegans get a similar negative reaction, I got the same reaction when I didn't drink to telling people as much. I used to give people crap for being obsessive gym-goers. Because we're all kind of immature and we don't like it when we think someone else is trying too hard at something we don't care about. Human nature, yo.
posted by Space Coyote at 6:11 PM on June 1, 2013 [7 favorites]
Actually, what rankles people is your ignoring the possibility that they might understand their own bodies and their own dietary needs better than you do, indeed the possibility that different foods might work for different people and there is no one perfect diet for everybody.
I try to be more charitable than this when people share with me the successful diet they've discovered. Someone can be passionate on the subject without actually implying that this is the One True Diet, and their motivations might simply be to share the experience and information with you. Someone straight-up insulting your character or intelligence isn't cool in any conversation, but it's not always what's intended when someone gets pretty enthusiastic it about this subject in conversation.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:12 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
I try to be more charitable than this when people share with me the successful diet they've discovered. Someone can be passionate on the subject without actually implying that this is the One True Diet, and their motivations might simply be to share the experience and information with you. Someone straight-up insulting your character or intelligence isn't cool in any conversation, but it's not always what's intended when someone gets pretty enthusiastic it about this subject in conversation.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:12 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Telling people their food is poison and their health conditions could be cured if they didn't eat poison is not "being passionate on the subject". Also, every Paleo everything I have ever read has declared it the One True Diet because Evolution! made it that way.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:16 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 6:16 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
Trobrianders eat one of the highest carb diets in the world!
Well luckily there weren't any Trobrianders during the Paleolithic period, so I guess the idea is to eat nothing at all.
posted by Sara C. at 6:19 PM on June 1, 2013
Well luckily there weren't any Trobrianders during the Paleolithic period, so I guess the idea is to eat nothing at all.
posted by Sara C. at 6:19 PM on June 1, 2013
Telling people their food is poison and their health conditions could be cured if they didn't eat poison is not "being passionate on the subject".
But some food can actually be bad for you. Are you talking about crazy shit like apples or something?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:20 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
But some food can actually be bad for you. Are you talking about crazy shit like apples or something?
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:20 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Because we're all kind of immature and we don't like it when we think someone else is trying too hard at something we don't care about. Human nature, yo.
This is my experience when talking to people about the diet. Which I only talk about mostly because I'm explaining why I don't want a beer or won't be having any pizza. Last weekend I was at a wedding shower and got a mini lecture about body acceptance and how if I lose more weight ill be too skinny and one friend jokingly or not shrieks DON'T judge me! even though I wasn't and most people tell me I'm just gonna gain weight because age so why torture myself.
People do think you're silently judging them even if you're really not.
posted by sweetkid at 6:24 PM on June 1, 2013 [9 favorites]
This is my experience when talking to people about the diet. Which I only talk about mostly because I'm explaining why I don't want a beer or won't be having any pizza. Last weekend I was at a wedding shower and got a mini lecture about body acceptance and how if I lose more weight ill be too skinny and one friend jokingly or not shrieks DON'T judge me! even though I wasn't and most people tell me I'm just gonna gain weight because age so why torture myself.
People do think you're silently judging them even if you're really not.
posted by sweetkid at 6:24 PM on June 1, 2013 [9 favorites]
Vegetarians and vegans get a similar negative reaction, I got the same reaction when I didn't drink to telling people as much. I used to give people crap for being obsessive gym-goers. Because we're all kind of immature and we don't like it when we think someone else is trying too hard at something we don't care about. Human nature, yo.
I've gotten negative reactions at family dinners when I've turned down dessert. Especially from an Aunt who has long struggled with weight. I like desserts and have no problems eating what is usually pie when I feel like it. Many times I just don't want anything sweet at that moment. It has nothing to do with a 'diet' or having willpower. Me turning down dessert makes her uncomfortable and she has acted like I'm somehow judging her and at times has gone into long justifications about eating it and trying to talk me into it. It's weird, but I learned long ago it's her issue and not mine. All I did was say no thanks.
posted by Jalliah at 6:24 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
I've gotten negative reactions at family dinners when I've turned down dessert. Especially from an Aunt who has long struggled with weight. I like desserts and have no problems eating what is usually pie when I feel like it. Many times I just don't want anything sweet at that moment. It has nothing to do with a 'diet' or having willpower. Me turning down dessert makes her uncomfortable and she has acted like I'm somehow judging her and at times has gone into long justifications about eating it and trying to talk me into it. It's weird, but I learned long ago it's her issue and not mine. All I did was say no thanks.
posted by Jalliah at 6:24 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
probably not getting enough to eat most of the time
From what we know, prehistoric hunter-gatherers were probably pretty food secure overall. Certainly more food secure than most people living in an agricultural economy ever have been.
However, there are caveats there:
- paleolithic peoples had far more diverse diets, which is a nice way of saying that the reason they were food secure was that if their source of mongongo nuts dried up, there were always grubs or weeds or other things to eat that modern affluent people would rather starve than eat.
- paleolithic peoples often did things that modern affluent people wouldn't do in order to insure food security. For instance leaving the elderly on ice floes and rigidly controlled fertility, which sometimes included infanticide.
- and, of course, the big caveat that is more relevant in this thread, and which you alluded to, they also had to do pretty much everything under human power. They didn't necessarily spend that much of their time acquiring food, but they definitely spent a lot of their time walking around, making tools, building/maintaining homes, etc. So regardless of what they ate, they burned a ton of calories.
posted by Sara C. at 6:25 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
From what we know, prehistoric hunter-gatherers were probably pretty food secure overall. Certainly more food secure than most people living in an agricultural economy ever have been.
However, there are caveats there:
- paleolithic peoples had far more diverse diets, which is a nice way of saying that the reason they were food secure was that if their source of mongongo nuts dried up, there were always grubs or weeds or other things to eat that modern affluent people would rather starve than eat.
- paleolithic peoples often did things that modern affluent people wouldn't do in order to insure food security. For instance leaving the elderly on ice floes and rigidly controlled fertility, which sometimes included infanticide.
- and, of course, the big caveat that is more relevant in this thread, and which you alluded to, they also had to do pretty much everything under human power. They didn't necessarily spend that much of their time acquiring food, but they definitely spent a lot of their time walking around, making tools, building/maintaining homes, etc. So regardless of what they ate, they burned a ton of calories.
posted by Sara C. at 6:25 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
But some food can actually be bad for you. Are you talking about crazy shit like apples or something?
No, probably people who tell you that bread is poison. They exist.
posted by Justinian at 6:35 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
No, probably people who tell you that bread is poison. They exist.
posted by Justinian at 6:35 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Don't drink sugar drinks, don't eat fast food, don't post on your wall or tweet about your stupid diet.
posted by Brocktoon at 6:39 PM on June 1, 2013
posted by Brocktoon at 6:39 PM on June 1, 2013
I have been told that wheat, corn, legumes, potatoes, tomatoes, and peppers are poison. This seems to be a common opinion among folks who follow this diet.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:39 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 6:39 PM on June 1, 2013 [3 favorites]
The Perfect Health Diet, mentioned above (here's a cute little graphic that represents what's eaten on a typical day), is "paleo-like," I guess. There are starches included -- white rice, sweet potatoes, a few others. People fond of research tend to like the citations and discussion; people fond of anthropology tend to like that it's not called "paleolithic."
posted by houseofdanie at 6:41 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by houseofdanie at 6:41 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
people who tell you that bread is poison. They exist.
Yep. Bread is poison, at least to me. The meter does not lie. If no so much for yo, more power to you.
posted by localroger at 6:42 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Yep. Bread is poison, at least to me. The meter does not lie. If no so much for yo, more power to you.
posted by localroger at 6:42 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
This is off subject but I think it might be of interest,so bear with me.
Years ago, during the industrial revolution, there were very poor people, esp. the young, undernourished, throughout Europe. The poorest of the poor, though, were in Ireland. Oddly, the very poor children there were in better health than the better off children throughout Europe. Why? Because of their poverty, they relied mainly on potatoes. Potatoes and milk supply just about all the vitamins and minerals needed.
The, of course, with the potato blight, we know what happened.
posted by Postroad at 6:42 PM on June 1, 2013
Years ago, during the industrial revolution, there were very poor people, esp. the young, undernourished, throughout Europe. The poorest of the poor, though, were in Ireland. Oddly, the very poor children there were in better health than the better off children throughout Europe. Why? Because of their poverty, they relied mainly on potatoes. Potatoes and milk supply just about all the vitamins and minerals needed.
The, of course, with the potato blight, we know what happened.
posted by Postroad at 6:42 PM on June 1, 2013
And oh -- the PHD does discuss fermenting and sprouting foods that are otherwise not at the top of the list.
posted by houseofdanie at 6:43 PM on June 1, 2013
posted by houseofdanie at 6:43 PM on June 1, 2013
I get groggy and I can't think properly, feel generally crappy and then want to sleep. It's bizarre. Milk products like cheese, butter and yogurt are fine.
The lactose in cheese is different than the lactose in milk because of fermentation, which is why many (but not all) lactose-intolerant people have fewer problems with it than milk. Perhaps a dairyologist can explain exactly why that is.
On preview, this is what Seymour Zamboni is talking about.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:44 PM on June 1, 2013
The lactose in cheese is different than the lactose in milk because of fermentation, which is why many (but not all) lactose-intolerant people have fewer problems with it than milk. Perhaps a dairyologist can explain exactly why that is.
On preview, this is what Seymour Zamboni is talking about.
posted by Room 641-A at 6:44 PM on June 1, 2013
People always want to know the secret about being healthy. The hidden knowledge the Beautiful People have. Then they want to do "secret thing" and be healthy and pretty.
But that's not the way it works. If you exercise, sleep right, and eat healthy food (green plants and fruit little meat) you'll be healthy. If you ever stop doing one of those things you won't. There's no secret sauce just hard work at easily known things forever.
posted by ishrinkmajeans at 6:45 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
But that's not the way it works. If you exercise, sleep right, and eat healthy food (green plants and fruit little meat) you'll be healthy. If you ever stop doing one of those things you won't. There's no secret sauce just hard work at easily known things forever.
posted by ishrinkmajeans at 6:45 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
I have been told that wheat, corn, legumes, potatoes, tomatoes, and peppers are poison. This seems to be a common opinion among folks who follow this diet.
Well hopefully, these people expressed this opinion with the assumption that individual people require individual diets. My experience has been a lot less monolithic than yours. Some people are of course preachy and dogmatic, and I run into that in pretty much every belief system.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:48 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Well hopefully, these people expressed this opinion with the assumption that individual people require individual diets. My experience has been a lot less monolithic than yours. Some people are of course preachy and dogmatic, and I run into that in pretty much every belief system.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 6:48 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
I've got nothing against the paleo diet, I think it's a very healthy way to eat, but I do derive continual amusement from paleo aficionados' reactions to hearing me describe their diet as low carb. "No, no, it's not low carb! This is NOTHING like Atkins/South Beach/you name it! There are lots of VEGETABLES involved, see! And we don't eat dairy! It's not low carb at all!"
I suspect it's a real character flaw that I so very much enjoy disputing them on this front.
posted by artemisia at 6:55 PM on June 1, 2013
I suspect it's a real character flaw that I so very much enjoy disputing them on this front.
posted by artemisia at 6:55 PM on June 1, 2013
Yep. Bread is poison, at least to me. The meter does not lie. If no so much for yo, more power to you.
You're diabetic.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 7:02 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
You're diabetic.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 7:02 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
houseofdanie: "The Perfect Health Diet, mentioned above (here's a cute little graphic that represents what's eaten on a typical day), is "paleo-like," I guess. There are starches included -- white rice, sweet potatoes, a few others. People fond of research tend to like the citations and discussion; people fond of anthropology tend to like that it's not called "paleolithic.""
From that graphic:
posted by Room 641-A at 7:10 PM on June 1, 2013
From that graphic:
Soy and peanuts should be absolutely excluded.I have a question about this. As someone who eats a lot of tofu: What about Asia? Is this more of a food combining thing, where excluding tofu somehow works if you follow this particular diet? I thought the Asian diet, and the Japanese diet in particular, were considered healthy and that relies heavily on rice and soy.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:10 PM on June 1, 2013
From what I understand soy is very genetically modified. At any rate I don't feel good when I eat it.
posted by sweetkid at 7:18 PM on June 1, 2013
posted by sweetkid at 7:18 PM on June 1, 2013
So regardless of what they ate, they burned a ton of calories.
This.
Fat will slow you down over a 24 hour day and no sleep, but you definitely need some carbs.
And most especially in cold weather. You get more heat out of digesting them.
posted by Smedleyman at 7:21 PM on June 1, 2013
This.
Fat will slow you down over a 24 hour day and no sleep, but you definitely need some carbs.
And most especially in cold weather. You get more heat out of digesting them.
posted by Smedleyman at 7:21 PM on June 1, 2013
Something can make you sick or even kill you without being poison. Ice cream isn't poison but if I eat a lot of it I will be writhing on the bathroom floor hoping not to pass out. This does not make me happy given that ice cream sundaes are my favoritest thing ever.
posted by Justinian at 7:22 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Justinian at 7:22 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
I find it's not the diets or diet proselytizers that frustrate me so much as the Just-World hypothesizing.
posted by Existential Dread at 7:38 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Existential Dread at 7:38 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
More specifically about the tofu, I've always enjoyed it but have been obsessed with a certain recipe and I've been eating it almost every day for the last month or so. Due to the sudden increase I think any negative effects would be apparent, but I know that some people, like sweetkid mentioned, don't really take to it. I don't think "The Perfect Diet" is actually saying, Asia, you're doing it wrong! but I'm curious how they address the discrepancy between the two diets.
posted by Room 641-A at 7:39 PM on June 1, 2013
posted by Room 641-A at 7:39 PM on June 1, 2013
The section on legumes discusses effects from lectins on gut, pancreas and gall bladder; legume allergies; and the industrial processing of legumes and soy products. The preference, then, is for foods that are more generally known to be safe, that provide more nutrition, and that do not require such processing.
Asian diets in general aren't really discussed. The format of the book is basically to present a food group, lay out the pros and the cons, and then sum it up with recommendations. One of the authors, Shou-Ching Jaminet, was born in Korea to Chinese parents. On the site, her meals look decidedly more Asian-influenced than Paul Jaminet's do -- seaweed and rice in broth, etc. But - no tofu.
Hah, I found this page a while back on beans vs. no beans. There's a little pro-bean and anti-bean person chart with a list of their arguments for and against.
posted by houseofdanie at 7:43 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Asian diets in general aren't really discussed. The format of the book is basically to present a food group, lay out the pros and the cons, and then sum it up with recommendations. One of the authors, Shou-Ching Jaminet, was born in Korea to Chinese parents. On the site, her meals look decidedly more Asian-influenced than Paul Jaminet's do -- seaweed and rice in broth, etc. But - no tofu.
Hah, I found this page a while back on beans vs. no beans. There's a little pro-bean and anti-bean person chart with a list of their arguments for and against.
posted by houseofdanie at 7:43 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
I have been told that wheat, corn, legumes, potatoes, tomatoes, and peppers are poison.
Basically all of the staple foods of the Americas, right? At least as bad for you as sago, yucca, sweet potatoes, millet, rice, etc. These are all foods that poor people eat all over the world, and each of them produce more calories in food than they take to cultivate, so you can subsist on them. I don't want to throw around the term "poison" that loosely.
posted by wormwood23 at 7:43 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
Basically all of the staple foods of the Americas, right? At least as bad for you as sago, yucca, sweet potatoes, millet, rice, etc. These are all foods that poor people eat all over the world, and each of them produce more calories in food than they take to cultivate, so you can subsist on them. I don't want to throw around the term "poison" that loosely.
posted by wormwood23 at 7:43 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
Well, the idea behind that particular book is not that you eat a thing and feel great or crappy that day, week, month, or year. The idea is that you're trying to become well nourished and minimize harm in the long term, given the best information available.
posted by houseofdanie at 7:46 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by houseofdanie at 7:46 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
I just eat whatever I want because I'm too busy defending Isreal from being invaded by Palastine.
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:57 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 7:57 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
As it so happens I've been dabbling with the paleo diet the past couple of weeks. It's been really interesting to see how much less food coma I get after eating something pretty much bereft of refined grains versus my usual pasta/bread-heavy diet.
And honestly if it works to get a fuckton more vegetables into my diet than it is pretty much guaranteed to be better than the way I'm currently eating.
posted by egypturnash at 8:02 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
And honestly if it works to get a fuckton more vegetables into my diet than it is pretty much guaranteed to be better than the way I'm currently eating.
posted by egypturnash at 8:02 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Due to the sudden increase I think any negative effects would be apparent, but I know that some people, like sweetkid mentioned, don't really take to it.
I think this is different on an individual basis.
Lots of people are lactose intolerant, and even beyond that we have all kinds of cultural ideas about when it's appropriate to consume dairy products. Conversely, I find that I really feel at my best when I'm able to have dairy, and I don't have any of the slight complaints that people tend to make about it ("makes me phlegmy", stuff like that). I've just decided that, while dairy doesn't agree with some people, it definitely agrees with me. So I'm going to continue to eat it for the foreseeable future.
posted by Sara C. at 8:04 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
I think this is different on an individual basis.
Lots of people are lactose intolerant, and even beyond that we have all kinds of cultural ideas about when it's appropriate to consume dairy products. Conversely, I find that I really feel at my best when I'm able to have dairy, and I don't have any of the slight complaints that people tend to make about it ("makes me phlegmy", stuff like that). I've just decided that, while dairy doesn't agree with some people, it definitely agrees with me. So I'm going to continue to eat it for the foreseeable future.
posted by Sara C. at 8:04 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Yo Sara C no offense but do you even lift?
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:07 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by Potomac Avenue at 8:07 PM on June 1, 2013 [5 favorites]
yes, this is what we need, to be more like /fit/
protip: no one needs to be more like /fit/
OATZ
posted by kagredon at 8:10 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
protip: no one needs to be more like /fit/
OATZ
posted by kagredon at 8:10 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
I'm lactose intolerant in a country where it seems a lot of engineering has gone into coming up with different dairy products. I've been told this could be linked to the lack of sunlight and need for vitamin D, I don't know, but Scandos love their dairy.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:18 PM on June 1, 2013
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 8:18 PM on June 1, 2013
it's japanese though
The fact elizardbits didn't capitalize the 'j' has me laughing so hard right now.
posted by variella at 8:18 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
The fact elizardbits didn't capitalize the 'j' has me laughing so hard right now.
posted by variella at 8:18 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
Maybe no need to cut beans out of the diet, even a paleo-influenced one?
There is no way paleolithic humans ate beans, they didn't have can openers!
posted by ian1977 at 8:30 PM on June 1, 2013 [10 favorites]
There is no way paleolithic humans ate beans, they didn't have can openers!
posted by ian1977 at 8:30 PM on June 1, 2013 [10 favorites]
The Paleolithic era went from 2.6mybp to roughly 8000bc, and included biomes that stretched from the Cape of Good Hope north to Siberia, and then south again to Tierra Del Fuego. When you say that paleolithic cultures did this, or did that, or acted in this other way... what the hell are you basing it on? Which cultures? Compared to what aspect of modernity? How do you know how much energy they expended in a day compared to what they ate, are you going by published research? Where were they located, what were they eating, how did they acquire it? Or are you running rough estimates by the seat of your pants... like those behind the Paleo Diet itself?
To talk about the cultures of the Paleolithic as a whole from an anthropological standpoint does not strike me as terribly convincing counter-argument to the Paleo Diet. It's arguing against historical inaccuracy and hand-waving with a whole lot more historical inaccuracy and hand-waving.
There are still cultures who live a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, similar to what some cultures in the Paloelithic may have shared, and many more who did within living memory. Some of these cultures have been studied, their diets analyzed, their comparative health measured. Then, key components of their diet were adapted to modern food sources, and adopted by volunteers, and the changes in their health measured (including against control groups of other dieters). It provided generally good results.
But, by all means, get hung up on the notion that it may not reflect all of human culture from a two and a half million year stretch of hominid pre-history with perfect accuracy... but it sounds like you're critiquing the brass buttons on a Civil War buff's replica uniform rather than making much of an actual argument against the diet.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:01 PM on June 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
To talk about the cultures of the Paleolithic as a whole from an anthropological standpoint does not strike me as terribly convincing counter-argument to the Paleo Diet. It's arguing against historical inaccuracy and hand-waving with a whole lot more historical inaccuracy and hand-waving.
There are still cultures who live a hunter-gatherer lifestyle, similar to what some cultures in the Paloelithic may have shared, and many more who did within living memory. Some of these cultures have been studied, their diets analyzed, their comparative health measured. Then, key components of their diet were adapted to modern food sources, and adopted by volunteers, and the changes in their health measured (including against control groups of other dieters). It provided generally good results.
But, by all means, get hung up on the notion that it may not reflect all of human culture from a two and a half million year stretch of hominid pre-history with perfect accuracy... but it sounds like you're critiquing the brass buttons on a Civil War buff's replica uniform rather than making much of an actual argument against the diet.
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:01 PM on June 1, 2013 [6 favorites]
I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Subsistence hunting is still a Thing in here for some people in the Lower 48, where a deer rifle and fishing rod is responsible for a lot of the protein making it to the dinner table... including areas where obesity, diabetes and hypertension is at its worst. A much larger population of the country hunts recreationally, and eats what they kill. They tend to be in the "at-risk" groups more than the sissified city folk. Killing and butchering meat isn't as exotic to modern American culture as you're making it out.
Unless you're suggesting we fight obesity with fresh caribou entrails?
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:36 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
Unless you're suggesting we fight obesity with fresh caribou entrails?
posted by Slap*Happy at 9:36 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
> paleolithic peoples often did things that modern affluent people wouldn't do in order to insure food security. For instance leaving the elderly on ice floes
It's worth noting that this practice, which I've heard people tell me was common among the Inuit, was actually very rare, and Wikipedia points to sources that say it was only done in times of famine. And, since we have stories of cannibalism at the Jamestown colony, I don't think pre-agricultural people are especially set apart in how people act under desperation.
posted by Space Coyote at 9:36 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
It's worth noting that this practice, which I've heard people tell me was common among the Inuit, was actually very rare, and Wikipedia points to sources that say it was only done in times of famine. And, since we have stories of cannibalism at the Jamestown colony, I don't think pre-agricultural people are especially set apart in how people act under desperation.
posted by Space Coyote at 9:36 PM on June 1, 2013 [4 favorites]
only done in times of famine
Yeah that's my point.
Also, re Jamestown, of course, but I don't think any people who romanticize the Noble Savage Diet are prepared to resort to cannibalism, either.
The thing about food security nowadays -- nowadays being actual nowadays, not "anytime in the last 8000 years" -- is that, as much as we bitch about processed convenience foods, industrial agriculture means that the vast majority of human beings on the planet can get enough calories to sustain themselves. To the point that only a vanishingly tiny number of people ever have to think things like "Hm, either we can both starve, or I can kill my wife and eat her". This was not really true for any other time in history (or pre-history).
Either way, my point about barbaric stuff like ice floes and infanticide was that the lifestyle of paleolithic peoples isn't easy to line up with anything that would look like The Natural Way Things Are Supposed To Be to us.
posted by Sara C. at 9:56 PM on June 1, 2013
Yeah that's my point.
Also, re Jamestown, of course, but I don't think any people who romanticize the Noble Savage Diet are prepared to resort to cannibalism, either.
The thing about food security nowadays -- nowadays being actual nowadays, not "anytime in the last 8000 years" -- is that, as much as we bitch about processed convenience foods, industrial agriculture means that the vast majority of human beings on the planet can get enough calories to sustain themselves. To the point that only a vanishingly tiny number of people ever have to think things like "Hm, either we can both starve, or I can kill my wife and eat her". This was not really true for any other time in history (or pre-history).
Either way, my point about barbaric stuff like ice floes and infanticide was that the lifestyle of paleolithic peoples isn't easy to line up with anything that would look like The Natural Way Things Are Supposed To Be to us.
posted by Sara C. at 9:56 PM on June 1, 2013
I'm not convinced that pre-agricultural people died of starvation at a higher rate than agricultural people did. I"m willing to be persuaded.
posted by Space Coyote at 10:05 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by Space Coyote at 10:05 PM on June 1, 2013 [1 favorite]
(Noting that changes in environment that wiped out food sources would affect agricultural people as much as pre-agricultural people.)
posted by Space Coyote at 10:07 PM on June 1, 2013
posted by Space Coyote at 10:07 PM on June 1, 2013
And: who ends up at a higher risk of dying of starvation isn't directly related to how healthy the general populations were. Nor does it have much to do with a modern factory farm food ecosystem.
posted by Space Coyote at 10:08 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Space Coyote at 10:08 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
But for real tho low carb is incredible. You feel like a million bucks. If it isn't a miracle diet, it's the closest thing there is.
posted by 2bucksplus at 10:37 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by 2bucksplus at 10:37 PM on June 1, 2013 [2 favorites]
pete_22: ""Good Calories Bad Calories" did not necessarily convince me of the author's low carb views, but it did convince me that none of the "mainstream" experts know what the hell they're talking about either. The opinions of professional "dietitians" and "nutritionists" on either side are about as interesting to me as those of astrologists."
The difference between a nutritionist and a dietician is like the difference between a toothologist and a dentist. Dentists are licensed by the state and reviewed by their peers to ensure adequate ethics and competency, whereas a toothologist would not only be unvouched for but would be conspicuously so. Nutritionists are the same way, anyone can call themselves a nutritionist, all the way up to the hydrogen peroxide injecting and laser reikii ends of the woo spectrum. While a Registered Dietician is a physician who must complete years of graduate study in an accredited University, complete 900 hours of supervised practice, complete an appropriately ridiculous exam, and continue their education in order to continue calling themselves a dietician.
posted by Blasdelb at 12:39 AM on June 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
The difference between a nutritionist and a dietician is like the difference between a toothologist and a dentist. Dentists are licensed by the state and reviewed by their peers to ensure adequate ethics and competency, whereas a toothologist would not only be unvouched for but would be conspicuously so. Nutritionists are the same way, anyone can call themselves a nutritionist, all the way up to the hydrogen peroxide injecting and laser reikii ends of the woo spectrum. While a Registered Dietician is a physician who must complete years of graduate study in an accredited University, complete 900 hours of supervised practice, complete an appropriately ridiculous exam, and continue their education in order to continue calling themselves a dietician.
posted by Blasdelb at 12:39 AM on June 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
I've gotten negative reactions at family dinners when I've turned down dessert.
Part of that could also be the importance food holds among many cultures as a bonding experience, or to indicate caring/generosity, or as a sign of hospitality. It doesn't make it any easier to refuse food, but it all ties into how everyone seems to get passionate about what they and others eat and don't eat.
I also feel that stripping food and drink down into a science or a bookkeeping exercise would be missing a significant part of human culture and history. No surprise, since my ancestors greeted each other sometimes not by saying hello, but by asking, "Have you want already?"
posted by FJT at 12:54 AM on June 2, 2013
Part of that could also be the importance food holds among many cultures as a bonding experience, or to indicate caring/generosity, or as a sign of hospitality. It doesn't make it any easier to refuse food, but it all ties into how everyone seems to get passionate about what they and others eat and don't eat.
I also feel that stripping food and drink down into a science or a bookkeeping exercise would be missing a significant part of human culture and history. No surprise, since my ancestors greeted each other sometimes not by saying hello, but by asking, "Have you want already?"
posted by FJT at 12:54 AM on June 2, 2013
Oh thank god that first link was satire.
I was fooled when I read it in the Roundup thread. I really thought there were archaeologists arguing "It's when you mate, not what you ate."
posted by surplus at 4:57 AM on June 2, 2013
I was fooled when I read it in the Roundup thread. I really thought there were archaeologists arguing "It's when you mate, not what you ate."
posted by surplus at 4:57 AM on June 2, 2013
One reason people get so het up about diet is how frustrating it is to be trying to figure out what sorts of tortures you're gonna have to inflict upon yourself in order to test a particular theory, only to then by told by another group of people that your approach is WRONG and that everything you've started torturing yourself with is in fact making everything worse.
I've been getting myself into quinoa-based dishes, salads and pasta replacements and the like, and it hasn't been the easiest thing but it's been nice to feel like I'm progressing somewhat? And I eat more beans, avoid meats and dairy, and am trying to figure out ways to combine things I like that aren't super healthy for me with things that I like that are actually pretty good. But because paleo makes the argument that ALL grains are bad for you, and that probably beans aren't the best either, it means that half the things I've been trying for myself are (theoretically) no good and that some of the things I've been cutting are actually important for me to have.
Ultimately what I suspect is that there are multiple approaches to eating which a body can get something useful out of, and that mindful eating of ANY sort is better than no mindfulness at all. But certain people focused on a diet of whatever stripe get very fanatical and irritating about what they eat and, worse, about what you eat, and it only serves to make me want to buy a house made of chocolate cake and pasta with vodka sauce. I went to a friend's house for a nice little gathering and at the end of the evening this friend's mother came by and began closely interrogating my diet, angrily insisting that I had to make major drastic changes or else! It was worse than Jehovah's Witnesses.
Paleo combines that with the weird caveman mythos bullshit, and while MeFites may be so enlightened that of course we don't believe in the weird caveman mythos bullshit!, even a cursory read of some of the links people've posted here led to a lot of weird caveman mythos bullshit. I can see why for some people that would put the irritation towards fanatical dieters over the edge, because the combination is really fucking irritating.
posted by Rory Marinich at 5:08 AM on June 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
I've been getting myself into quinoa-based dishes, salads and pasta replacements and the like, and it hasn't been the easiest thing but it's been nice to feel like I'm progressing somewhat? And I eat more beans, avoid meats and dairy, and am trying to figure out ways to combine things I like that aren't super healthy for me with things that I like that are actually pretty good. But because paleo makes the argument that ALL grains are bad for you, and that probably beans aren't the best either, it means that half the things I've been trying for myself are (theoretically) no good and that some of the things I've been cutting are actually important for me to have.
Ultimately what I suspect is that there are multiple approaches to eating which a body can get something useful out of, and that mindful eating of ANY sort is better than no mindfulness at all. But certain people focused on a diet of whatever stripe get very fanatical and irritating about what they eat and, worse, about what you eat, and it only serves to make me want to buy a house made of chocolate cake and pasta with vodka sauce. I went to a friend's house for a nice little gathering and at the end of the evening this friend's mother came by and began closely interrogating my diet, angrily insisting that I had to make major drastic changes or else! It was worse than Jehovah's Witnesses.
Paleo combines that with the weird caveman mythos bullshit, and while MeFites may be so enlightened that of course we don't believe in the weird caveman mythos bullshit!, even a cursory read of some of the links people've posted here led to a lot of weird caveman mythos bullshit. I can see why for some people that would put the irritation towards fanatical dieters over the edge, because the combination is really fucking irritating.
posted by Rory Marinich at 5:08 AM on June 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
If you want to eat healthy then eat vegetables. If you think a high meat diet is the key that just strikes me as wishful thinking.
posted by caddis at 5:20 AM on June 2, 2013
posted by caddis at 5:20 AM on June 2, 2013
I am used to all the preaching. I don't care if it's moralizing or if it's benevolent advice. It doesn't matter anyway, because really all the advice seems to have very little effect. Individuals decide for themselves and most seem to follow whatever health pattern they've already selected or been bestowed.
Hope is rare. I can't criticize anyone given hope by a new diet. Delusion is common. But a necessary risk when you're choosing to hope.
I say let the people try these different diets. It's better than giving up.
posted by surplus at 5:48 AM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Hope is rare. I can't criticize anyone given hope by a new diet. Delusion is common. But a necessary risk when you're choosing to hope.
I say let the people try these different diets. It's better than giving up.
posted by surplus at 5:48 AM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Just to be pedantic: if you are eating vegetables you are eating carbs. Annoys me when I hear all the people who have forgotten basic biology, telling me they cut out all carbs as they chew on a fibrous stick made of starch encapsulated in cellulose. And guess what, if you cook it, the starch turns back into simple sugars. (Try a parsnip: fibrous and woody, but boiled it becomes soft and sweet. Because sugar. And why do you think they call them sweet potatoes, anyway? Sugar.)
Refined carbs are pretty universally understood to be something we shouldn't eat much of, if at all. But carbs are not evil. And they are one of the major components of any diet that includes plant matter.
posted by caution live frogs at 6:53 AM on June 2, 2013
Refined carbs are pretty universally understood to be something we shouldn't eat much of, if at all. But carbs are not evil. And they are one of the major components of any diet that includes plant matter.
posted by caution live frogs at 6:53 AM on June 2, 2013
Grizzly bears may have diet lessons that can be helpful for humans
The zoo’s nutritionists took away the processed dog food, ground beef, loaves of bread, supermarket oranges, bananas, mangoes and iceberg lettuce that the bears had been eating.posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:13 AM on June 2, 2013
Instead, they provided plants and animal protein that were seasonal and more closely resembled what grizzlies find in the wild. (As Natterson-Horowitz pointed out, there are no banana or mango plantations in the Canadian Rockies.) They chose vegetables and fruits such as kale, peppers, celery, heirloom apples — all more fibrous and seedy than the bears’ previous diet. And they replaced the hamburger meat with whole prey, such as fish and rabbits, which the grizzlies had to work harder to disassemble and eat.
The paleo diet is now pretty much the hipster of diets.
The only people I've met who are doing 'paleo' are Ayn Rand devotees. (Honestly).
Rand + Paleo thread GO!
posted by colie at 7:14 AM on June 2, 2013
The only people I've met who are doing 'paleo' are Ayn Rand devotees. (Honestly).
Rand + Paleo thread GO!
posted by colie at 7:14 AM on June 2, 2013
The only people I've met who are doing 'paleo' are Ayn Rand devotees. (Honestly).
Oh man, so I've been doing a modified Paleo-ish thing for, what, three years now, and I love it and it's amazing but I made the mistake of becoming a third-tier Paleo celebrity in the early days and now I have a bunch of Twitter followers who say things like "we don't need healthcare reform because Paleo," and, man, no amount of pastured beef liver will cure being hit by a bus.
Long story short: "Paleo" is a dumb thing and obviously anthropologically fraught, but the basic idea--eat less crap, watch for how your body reacts to things-- is pretty awesome.
posted by gone2croatan at 7:21 AM on June 2, 2013 [8 favorites]
Oh man, so I've been doing a modified Paleo-ish thing for, what, three years now, and I love it and it's amazing but I made the mistake of becoming a third-tier Paleo celebrity in the early days and now I have a bunch of Twitter followers who say things like "we don't need healthcare reform because Paleo," and, man, no amount of pastured beef liver will cure being hit by a bus.
Long story short: "Paleo" is a dumb thing and obviously anthropologically fraught, but the basic idea--eat less crap, watch for how your body reacts to things-- is pretty awesome.
posted by gone2croatan at 7:21 AM on June 2, 2013 [8 favorites]
Rand + Paleo thread GO! But could we also talk a bit more about ideal body types too? I head Sarah Palin was going paleo as well.
Joking aside. These threads always turn into the same thing. Burning the strawman of Caveman LARPING, this old picture, and the same tired arguments of authenticity vs people saying that the recommendations are pretty much sounds and that it's pretty hard to disagree with the overall advice.
It's like John Durant said, "Paleofantasy shouldn’t have been a book in 2013, it should have been a blog post in 2010”.
You know that whole model we have of the pendulum swinging back and forth between extremes? High carb vs low carb, free weights vs machines, abstract vs representational art etc? I don't think it's going to work anymore. In a lot of ways, I think the internet has ossified movements or at least kept them alive for longer. I mean how long have modern hipsters been vilified for? At least 11 years now? People are still riding fixies and wearing tight jeans. I don't think there is a next stage. Same with paleo and its related "fad" diets. I think it's here to stay. There's a big community, it works, its got a lot of science and anecdotal support. Maybe the caveman schtick is corny, maybe its proselytizers are lame, but damn if it doesn't work and make you healthy to boot. I mean let's be honest, it kicks the shit out of Pritikin or Ornish. People on paleo generally look pretty good and genuinely healthy. So maybe all that ra ra CrossFit stuff gets a bit old, it's still better than seeing a bunch of people trudging along on treadmills. I mean this stuff works and it changes people lives and they're getting healthier and not obsessing about being rail thin and there's an empowering emphasis on getting stronger.
I don't see where all the hate comes from. It's certainly not the worst movement to happen in the world. Last time I checked, obesity rates are going down in the US. Sure this shit isn't magic and ha ha bacon, but if people are eating fewer potatoes chips and drinking less cola, why the vitriol?
posted by Telf at 7:32 AM on June 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
Joking aside. These threads always turn into the same thing. Burning the strawman of Caveman LARPING, this old picture, and the same tired arguments of authenticity vs people saying that the recommendations are pretty much sounds and that it's pretty hard to disagree with the overall advice.
It's like John Durant said, "Paleofantasy shouldn’t have been a book in 2013, it should have been a blog post in 2010”.
You know that whole model we have of the pendulum swinging back and forth between extremes? High carb vs low carb, free weights vs machines, abstract vs representational art etc? I don't think it's going to work anymore. In a lot of ways, I think the internet has ossified movements or at least kept them alive for longer. I mean how long have modern hipsters been vilified for? At least 11 years now? People are still riding fixies and wearing tight jeans. I don't think there is a next stage. Same with paleo and its related "fad" diets. I think it's here to stay. There's a big community, it works, its got a lot of science and anecdotal support. Maybe the caveman schtick is corny, maybe its proselytizers are lame, but damn if it doesn't work and make you healthy to boot. I mean let's be honest, it kicks the shit out of Pritikin or Ornish. People on paleo generally look pretty good and genuinely healthy. So maybe all that ra ra CrossFit stuff gets a bit old, it's still better than seeing a bunch of people trudging along on treadmills. I mean this stuff works and it changes people lives and they're getting healthier and not obsessing about being rail thin and there's an empowering emphasis on getting stronger.
I don't see where all the hate comes from. It's certainly not the worst movement to happen in the world. Last time I checked, obesity rates are going down in the US. Sure this shit isn't magic and ha ha bacon, but if people are eating fewer potatoes chips and drinking less cola, why the vitriol?
posted by Telf at 7:32 AM on June 2, 2013 [4 favorites]
Same with paleo and its related "fad" diets. I think it's here to stay.
You're way off. The new fad diet - which is absolutely huge in the UK - is fasting for 2 days a week.
But Randroids will continue 'paleo', I agree. 'We don't need healthcare reform because bacon.'
posted by colie at 7:41 AM on June 2, 2013
You're way off. The new fad diet - which is absolutely huge in the UK - is fasting for 2 days a week.
But Randroids will continue 'paleo', I agree. 'We don't need healthcare reform because bacon.'
posted by colie at 7:41 AM on June 2, 2013
Yep. Bread is poison, at least to me. The meter does not lie. If no so much for yo, more power to you.
You're diabetic.
Actually, I'm pre- diabetic, and in 2006 it would have been very hard to find a doctor who would have considered anything to be wrong with me. There are more today but except for the diet, there are no treatments for what is wrong with me; none of the drugs (and I've tried metformin) have any noticeable effect at all. A diabetes drug is considered miraculous if it holds your Bg below 200 mg/dl.
Based on how my body has reacted since I changed my diet, I am fairly sure that my metabolism went off the rails when I was 28. I discovered the problem at 42, no thanks to the medical establishment (the one doctor I consulted on one of the early symptoms called me a liar because I told him alcohol made the situation better instead of worse).
My basic problem is that my Bg shoots to around 160-180 mg/dl for a couple of hours after I eat a meal containing more than 30-40 grams of carb. Otherwise my levels are high normal, and in fact go below 100 for most of the day if I'm careful. You will have to search a long time for a doctor who would recognize that as a condition that needs to be treated -- but treating it made an enormous change in the quality of my life.
I am convinced that there are a lot of people out there who are like I was in my 30's, chronically poisoning themselves without realizing that anything is wrong. They still have enough beta cells for their levels to recover, but they're spending more and more hours a day with chronically toxic Bg levels, and eventually they will kill enough beta cells that it will start accelerating and they will notice something other than the non-diet-responsive obesity is wrong.
There are undoubtably people who can eat bread and sugar all day long and live to be 100. I might even have been one of them myself if I hadn't spent about a year very inactive due to back to back hernia operations when I was 28. But I advise anyone who has any of the suspect symptoms -- obesity that doesn't seem to respond to normal diets, peripheral neuropathy or other classic diabetes symptoms after carb-rich meals, to get a meter and see what happens after you drink a glass of orange juice. If your body does not hold your levels below 140 mg/dl, then for you bread is indeed poison.
posted by localroger at 8:04 AM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
You're diabetic.
Actually, I'm pre- diabetic, and in 2006 it would have been very hard to find a doctor who would have considered anything to be wrong with me. There are more today but except for the diet, there are no treatments for what is wrong with me; none of the drugs (and I've tried metformin) have any noticeable effect at all. A diabetes drug is considered miraculous if it holds your Bg below 200 mg/dl.
Based on how my body has reacted since I changed my diet, I am fairly sure that my metabolism went off the rails when I was 28. I discovered the problem at 42, no thanks to the medical establishment (the one doctor I consulted on one of the early symptoms called me a liar because I told him alcohol made the situation better instead of worse).
My basic problem is that my Bg shoots to around 160-180 mg/dl for a couple of hours after I eat a meal containing more than 30-40 grams of carb. Otherwise my levels are high normal, and in fact go below 100 for most of the day if I'm careful. You will have to search a long time for a doctor who would recognize that as a condition that needs to be treated -- but treating it made an enormous change in the quality of my life.
I am convinced that there are a lot of people out there who are like I was in my 30's, chronically poisoning themselves without realizing that anything is wrong. They still have enough beta cells for their levels to recover, but they're spending more and more hours a day with chronically toxic Bg levels, and eventually they will kill enough beta cells that it will start accelerating and they will notice something other than the non-diet-responsive obesity is wrong.
There are undoubtably people who can eat bread and sugar all day long and live to be 100. I might even have been one of them myself if I hadn't spent about a year very inactive due to back to back hernia operations when I was 28. But I advise anyone who has any of the suspect symptoms -- obesity that doesn't seem to respond to normal diets, peripheral neuropathy or other classic diabetes symptoms after carb-rich meals, to get a meter and see what happens after you drink a glass of orange juice. If your body does not hold your levels below 140 mg/dl, then for you bread is indeed poison.
posted by localroger at 8:04 AM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
But Randroids will continue 'paleo', I agree. 'We don't need healthcare reform because bacon.'
It's unfortunate that for all its miraculous properties, low-carb doesn't seem to help stupidity.
posted by localroger at 8:05 AM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's unfortunate that for all its miraculous properties, low-carb doesn't seem to help stupidity.
posted by localroger at 8:05 AM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Hard to speak for them, but the Mongols who ate pretty much nothing but meat and dairy were shocked at the frailness and short lives of the Europeans who they encountered. If they didn't die in battle they tended to live past seventy with regularity.
In other words, surviving members of history's greatest warrior expeditionary force compared favorably in terms of health and longevity to a random sampling of Middle Age peasants. *guzzles fermented mare's milk*
posted by eddydamascene at 8:59 AM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
In other words, surviving members of history's greatest warrior expeditionary force compared favorably in terms of health and longevity to a random sampling of Middle Age peasants. *guzzles fermented mare's milk*
posted by eddydamascene at 8:59 AM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
Hang on, is dairy produce paleo or not?
I thought milk had been first on the list of all enemy foods for ages?
posted by colie at 9:16 AM on June 2, 2013
I thought milk had been first on the list of all enemy foods for ages?
posted by colie at 9:16 AM on June 2, 2013
> Hang on, is dairy produce paleo or not
Well, it's not like there are laws about what's on the Paleo diet and what isn't (I'm talking here about the modern eating plan, not historical Paleolithic food, for people who need that spelled out). But some Paleo proponents say go ahead and eat moderate amounts of dairy if you're okay with lactose; I've run across that on Nom Nom Paleo and in Robb Wolf's podcast.
Paleo people who are lactose intolerant sometimes will still use clarified butter for cooking.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:25 AM on June 2, 2013
Well, it's not like there are laws about what's on the Paleo diet and what isn't (I'm talking here about the modern eating plan, not historical Paleolithic food, for people who need that spelled out). But some Paleo proponents say go ahead and eat moderate amounts of dairy if you're okay with lactose; I've run across that on Nom Nom Paleo and in Robb Wolf's podcast.
Paleo people who are lactose intolerant sometimes will still use clarified butter for cooking.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:25 AM on June 2, 2013
Hang on, is dairy produce paleo or not
If you can't be bothered to learn enough about the diet to even figure this out I don't feel like you're qualified to be all LOL Paleo Randroids or whatever.
posted by sweetkid at 9:29 AM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
If you can't be bothered to learn enough about the diet to even figure this out I don't feel like you're qualified to be all LOL Paleo Randroids or whatever.
posted by sweetkid at 9:29 AM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
Metabolic and physiologic improvements from consuming a paleolithic, hunter-gatherer type diet
A trial with no controls. Sometimes I wonder whether dietary research is always so bad on purpose.
If you exercise, sleep right, and eat healthy food (green plants and fruit little meat) you'll be healthy.
I'm sure you didn't intend this in the way I'm about to interpret it, but this is false, and part of what people complain about during dietary discussions. There are a lot of reasons for people to be unhealthy that are outside of their control. There are also enough people blaming sick people for being sick that sick people tend to be sensitive to statements like this.
I thought the Asian diet, and the Japanese diet in particular, were considered healthy and that relies heavily on rice and soy.
The Japanese diet is considered healthy in comparison to the US diet (as much as such a thing exists). Diet is a immature science, maybe due in part to consistently awful research like that mentioned earlier. Many diets considered "good" (use this term carefully, always ask "good for what?") are incompatible with each other. Nobody knows why fat is so dangerous to US Americans but not, apparently, to the French; nobody knows why so much sodium is okay for Japanese but not for US Americans.
While a Registered Dietician is a physician who must complete years of graduate study in an accredited University, complete 900 hours of supervised practice, complete an appropriately ridiculous exam, and continue their education in order to continue calling themselves a dietician.
Right that RDs are actually certified, but in the US: they are not physicians, and they need a bachelors, no post-grad work. It's not really that competitive of a field, but yes, they are taught to certain medical standards (which means evidence-based) whereas nutritionists are not necessarily so trained.
posted by nathan v at 9:30 AM on June 2, 2013 [5 favorites]
A trial with no controls. Sometimes I wonder whether dietary research is always so bad on purpose.
If you exercise, sleep right, and eat healthy food (green plants and fruit little meat) you'll be healthy.
I'm sure you didn't intend this in the way I'm about to interpret it, but this is false, and part of what people complain about during dietary discussions. There are a lot of reasons for people to be unhealthy that are outside of their control. There are also enough people blaming sick people for being sick that sick people tend to be sensitive to statements like this.
I thought the Asian diet, and the Japanese diet in particular, were considered healthy and that relies heavily on rice and soy.
The Japanese diet is considered healthy in comparison to the US diet (as much as such a thing exists). Diet is a immature science, maybe due in part to consistently awful research like that mentioned earlier. Many diets considered "good" (use this term carefully, always ask "good for what?") are incompatible with each other. Nobody knows why fat is so dangerous to US Americans but not, apparently, to the French; nobody knows why so much sodium is okay for Japanese but not for US Americans.
While a Registered Dietician is a physician who must complete years of graduate study in an accredited University, complete 900 hours of supervised practice, complete an appropriately ridiculous exam, and continue their education in order to continue calling themselves a dietician.
Right that RDs are actually certified, but in the US: they are not physicians, and they need a bachelors, no post-grad work. It's not really that competitive of a field, but yes, they are taught to certain medical standards (which means evidence-based) whereas nutritionists are not necessarily so trained.
posted by nathan v at 9:30 AM on June 2, 2013 [5 favorites]
Hang on, is dairy produce paleo or not?
Only for babies.
posted by elizardbits at 10:28 AM on June 2, 2013
Only for babies.
posted by elizardbits at 10:28 AM on June 2, 2013
If you can't be bothered to learn enough about the diet to even figure this out I don't feel like you're qualified to be all LOL Paleo Randroids or whatever.
You're right, I'm just going to wait till this fad passes. Shame that doesn't seem to be an option with Randroidism.
:-)
posted by colie at 10:52 AM on June 2, 2013
You're right, I'm just going to wait till this fad passes. Shame that doesn't seem to be an option with Randroidism.
:-)
posted by colie at 10:52 AM on June 2, 2013
I don't have much to add, except from about the middle of last year until a couple of months ago I've been suffering from heartburn, stomach pain, and bathroom issues. I shifted to a healthier diet with some help from Weight Watchers, and there was some marginal improvement, but certain issues still randomly came back or never went away.
And about a couple of months ago, everything just became 100% better. I have no heartburn or stomach pain now and I've never been more regular ever in my life. A few weeks ago, I was thinking to myself, what the hell changed? Certainly not my diet, cause I'm drinking more beer (and eating more pub food), and in fact just came back from a trip to Chicago filled with hot dogs, pizza, burgers, and Polish food. It's because I lost my job. All the stress and anxiety (and depression to an extent) is dissipating, and with it all my stomach issues. I'll eventually have to get a job, but at least I'm learning that it's not only what I put in my body, but what my body does to itself too.
posted by FJT at 12:20 PM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
And about a couple of months ago, everything just became 100% better. I have no heartburn or stomach pain now and I've never been more regular ever in my life. A few weeks ago, I was thinking to myself, what the hell changed? Certainly not my diet, cause I'm drinking more beer (and eating more pub food), and in fact just came back from a trip to Chicago filled with hot dogs, pizza, burgers, and Polish food. It's because I lost my job. All the stress and anxiety (and depression to an extent) is dissipating, and with it all my stomach issues. I'll eventually have to get a job, but at least I'm learning that it's not only what I put in my body, but what my body does to itself too.
posted by FJT at 12:20 PM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
It's because I lost my job. All the stress and anxiety (and depression to an extent) is dissipating, and with it all my stomach issues.
A very similar thing happened to me earlier this year - quit a job I was burned out of doing, and found my chronic sleep problems disappeared. To me it's part of the non-dogmatic approach I'm taking to the diet. Dieting is a lot like buying a keyboard. You could play it with all the presets, but that gets boring fast. The real joy - and real increase in results - comes from making your own adjustments in accordance with what you want to achieve. Health; to be happy, strong, energetic, alive, includes eating and exercise along with my general happiness for how I'm living. Even trivial changes in my everyday life can affect my health, for worse or better.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:55 PM on June 2, 2013
A very similar thing happened to me earlier this year - quit a job I was burned out of doing, and found my chronic sleep problems disappeared. To me it's part of the non-dogmatic approach I'm taking to the diet. Dieting is a lot like buying a keyboard. You could play it with all the presets, but that gets boring fast. The real joy - and real increase in results - comes from making your own adjustments in accordance with what you want to achieve. Health; to be happy, strong, energetic, alive, includes eating and exercise along with my general happiness for how I'm living. Even trivial changes in my everyday life can affect my health, for worse or better.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 12:55 PM on June 2, 2013
I wouldn't worry about the paleo diet too much. In a couple decades more, when climate change causes the collapse of civilization, we'll all be starving, scrabbling among the ruins for anything edible at all. "I found a 20 year-old tin of cat food! It's MINE!" You'll be killing and eating members of the chihuahua packs raw, coming down the raw meat quickly, lest the cannibal ex-boy scout biker gangs catch you.
posted by happyroach at 1:21 PM on June 2, 2013
posted by happyroach at 1:21 PM on June 2, 2013
Ha, happyroach. I'll be eating bugs, just like my Paleo predecessors.
posted by surplus at 1:25 PM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by surplus at 1:25 PM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
I have been following a mostly-paleo diet for about six months now. (I fudge to a degree of about 5%, and I am not giving up coffee.)
So far I have lost 50lbs, I feel amazing, my energy level is higher than it has ever been in my life, and I sleep more soundly than I ever have. (I'm 41.) And once I got through the first week, I have never felt deprived or hungry.
Is this diet for everyone? Although I believe everyone could benefit from it, I acknowledge that it's not realistic.
There is no one-size-fits-all answer when it comes to nutrition. I am lucky in that I work from home (so I have time to cook), I live alone so I don't have to negotiate other people's mealtime requirements, and I can afford the higher grocery bill.
Is this a healthy diet that has improved my life beyond measure? Oh yes.
Is this diet a marked improvement over what most people eat? Very much so.
But hey, if nutritionists and random internet people want to snipe at hypotheticals, edge cases, and boundary issues from the sidelines, I won't stand in their way.
posted by ErikaB at 1:50 PM on June 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
So far I have lost 50lbs, I feel amazing, my energy level is higher than it has ever been in my life, and I sleep more soundly than I ever have. (I'm 41.) And once I got through the first week, I have never felt deprived or hungry.
Is this diet for everyone? Although I believe everyone could benefit from it, I acknowledge that it's not realistic.
There is no one-size-fits-all answer when it comes to nutrition. I am lucky in that I work from home (so I have time to cook), I live alone so I don't have to negotiate other people's mealtime requirements, and I can afford the higher grocery bill.
Is this a healthy diet that has improved my life beyond measure? Oh yes.
Is this diet a marked improvement over what most people eat? Very much so.
But hey, if nutritionists and random internet people want to snipe at hypotheticals, edge cases, and boundary issues from the sidelines, I won't stand in their way.
posted by ErikaB at 1:50 PM on June 2, 2013 [3 favorites]
happyroach: fad diets are surely one of the symptoms of advanced decadent consumer societies, so I'd expect to see plenty more of them among wealthy people (like us guys here) as we move into climate change/capitalism meltdown. Certainly since the 70s that seems to have been the case.
posted by colie at 1:55 PM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by colie at 1:55 PM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
Having skimmed through the thread... personally I think the narrative framework ("this is what our ancestors ate") is bogus. A lot of paleo proponents get really evangelical about that part. I urge you to ignore them.
I also see comments about "bacon and butter." Also wrong.
In a nutshell, here is what the paleo diet consists of:
I think most people would agree, that's a pretty good diet! Better than what most Americans eat. Certainly better than what I personally used to eat.
posted by ErikaB at 2:03 PM on June 2, 2013
I also see comments about "bacon and butter." Also wrong.
In a nutshell, here is what the paleo diet consists of:
- Lean meat
- Fish
- Fresh fruit
- Most fresh vegetables
- Nuts
I think most people would agree, that's a pretty good diet! Better than what most Americans eat. Certainly better than what I personally used to eat.
posted by ErikaB at 2:03 PM on June 2, 2013
P.S. I don't like Ayn Rand.
That's a weird thing to have to specify in a thread talking about other people's dietary choices. And yet.
posted by ErikaB at 2:06 PM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
That's a weird thing to have to specify in a thread talking about other people's dietary choices. And yet.
posted by ErikaB at 2:06 PM on June 2, 2013 [2 favorites]
Me either. Yes to Paleo no to Ayn Rand
posted by sweetkid at 2:14 PM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by sweetkid at 2:14 PM on June 2, 2013 [1 favorite]
Many religions prescribe some foods and proscribe others, and this thread drives home to me just how absurd it would be to mistake that for coincidence: food preferences are deeply held convictions which are often unassailable by rational arguments, any substantial change in diet has the force of revelation for the person who makes it, and there is an apparently ineluctable drive to proselytize for one's foods and the way one obtains and prepares them.
posted by jamjam at 2:59 PM on June 2, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by jamjam at 2:59 PM on June 2, 2013 [5 favorites]
The only people hung up on food this much 20 years ago (and I mean "hung up" in a way that means "proselytizing about," not hung up on certain styles of cooking or beloved foods and recipes, etc.), even as little as a decade ago, were newfound or evangelical vegetarians and vegans, and the people who had an ax to grind with vegetarians or vegans. A couple of decades now, you'll be to tell whether a TV (or Neflix-like Internet) show is set in the 2010s--even without seeing the clothes, cars or streets--by how much the characters go off about their distinctive food preferences or diets and whether they see certain foods as poison, how they recommend "super foods" du jour for particular illnesses in unsolicited fashion, etc.
posted by raysmj at 4:00 PM on June 2, 2013
posted by raysmj at 4:00 PM on June 2, 2013
raysmj all that is partly because the "obesity epidemic" which was well underway in the 1970's has galloped forward in the decades since, and the increasingly prevalent problem can be mediated by diet in a number of ways. And it's human nature if you've had a big intractable problem and solved it to want to help others by sharing your solution.
posted by localroger at 4:19 PM on June 2, 2013
posted by localroger at 4:19 PM on June 2, 2013
How I wish it were limited to obesity. It's not. I hear many people say it's because of increases in cancer and Alzheimer's, etc., but rates of reporting, awareness, etc., are never accounted for. And cancer rates have declined in the U.S. over the past two decades anyway!! Much of what I hear has jack to do with rates of obesity.
posted by raysmj at 4:24 PM on June 2, 2013
posted by raysmj at 4:24 PM on June 2, 2013
A couple of decades now, you'll be to tell whether a TV (or Neflix-like Internet) show is set in the 2010s--
This would be American shows or shows referencing American culture, correct? There are probably fad diets in other countries, but do they ever reach such a fervor as in the US?
posted by FJT at 4:42 PM on June 2, 2013
This would be American shows or shows referencing American culture, correct? There are probably fad diets in other countries, but do they ever reach such a fervor as in the US?
posted by FJT at 4:42 PM on June 2, 2013
Why Fire Makes Us Human: Cooking may be more than just a part of your daily routine, it may be what made your brain as powerful as it is
posted by homunculus at 5:09 PM on June 2, 2013
posted by homunculus at 5:09 PM on June 2, 2013
> There are probably fad diets in other countries, but do they ever reach such a fervor as in the US
Sure. I've read about the 5-2 Diet in the UK (as mentioned upthread) and the French have their Dukan Diet.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:23 PM on June 2, 2013
Sure. I've read about the 5-2 Diet in the UK (as mentioned upthread) and the French have their Dukan Diet.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:23 PM on June 2, 2013
So all y'all paleo diet evangelists will step down when you're proved wrong by science, right? Cuz science says your diet will kill everyone's food:
How does _agricultural_ breeding of plants reducing phytonutrients somehow mean paleo diet is "killing everyone's food"?
(Putting aside that your note makes zero sense, there's also the issue that the actual evidence on things like anti-oxidants turned out to not be so good and the same is true for fiber, so how sure are we that phytonutrients "potential" is real?)
posted by rr at 11:21 PM on June 2, 2013
How does _agricultural_ breeding of plants reducing phytonutrients somehow mean paleo diet is "killing everyone's food"?
(Putting aside that your note makes zero sense, there's also the issue that the actual evidence on things like anti-oxidants turned out to not be so good and the same is true for fiber, so how sure are we that phytonutrients "potential" is real?)
posted by rr at 11:21 PM on June 2, 2013
SakuraK: I'm really confused by your interpretation of that op-ed. Could you explain more?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:25 AM on June 3, 2013
posted by the man of twists and turns at 4:25 AM on June 3, 2013
The article states that farmers have been breeding some nutrients out of plants in favor of taste and quick calories. There is no connection at all to the paleo diet, except to reinforce the notion that modern food sources are not as healthy, which is kind of the cornerstone of the diet. I am sincerely puzzled as to why SakuraK believes it refutes the paleo diet, or is indicative that followers of the paelo diet endanger food security.
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:28 AM on June 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
posted by Slap*Happy at 6:28 AM on June 3, 2013 [4 favorites]
Too much meat maybe? too much soy and water and land for each cow?
posted by infini at 8:53 AM on June 3, 2013
posted by infini at 8:53 AM on June 3, 2013
I'm sure if there were any "evangelists" in this thread they'd take note. But they don't seem to be in this one.
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 3:01 PM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
posted by Marisa Stole the Precious Thing at 3:01 PM on June 3, 2013 [2 favorites]
Think most of the paleo folks have been well-reasoned, patient, self aware and conciliatory in this thread. Most of the really wacky, aggressive and ad hominem stuff has come from the people who seem to have real issues with not eating Cheetos and Frosted Flakes. (Randroids, Bacon, Cavemen, etc.)
New marketing campaign:
"Paleo, it's like a what your great grandmother ate, but without corn flakes".*
*Go ahead and have milk if it agrees with you, but try to stick to grassfed raw milk. We're not sure whether it's a Casein A/B thing or a lactose thing. Consider taking some probiotics like kefir and see if that clears things up. I guess you could try some sort of acid supplementation as well. Also consider taking digestive enzymes, my friend had a lot of luck with papaya proteinase and some sort of porcupine bile thing. Probably goats milk is ok for most people. Starches are generally ok, just don't overdo the crappy ones. Also, beans are probably ok too, just soak them Weston A Price style. That being said, they're pretty crap from a nutrition standpoint.
posted by Telf at 2:27 AM on June 4, 2013
New marketing campaign:
"Paleo, it's like a what your great grandmother ate, but without corn flakes".*
*Go ahead and have milk if it agrees with you, but try to stick to grassfed raw milk. We're not sure whether it's a Casein A/B thing or a lactose thing. Consider taking some probiotics like kefir and see if that clears things up. I guess you could try some sort of acid supplementation as well. Also consider taking digestive enzymes, my friend had a lot of luck with papaya proteinase and some sort of porcupine bile thing. Probably goats milk is ok for most people. Starches are generally ok, just don't overdo the crappy ones. Also, beans are probably ok too, just soak them Weston A Price style. That being said, they're pretty crap from a nutrition standpoint.
posted by Telf at 2:27 AM on June 4, 2013
Just for the record, if I'm being characterized as a wacko for saying that the paleo diet has a dumb name, will not cure auto-immune disease, and that there might be many different diets that work for many different people, I actually eat a diet that consists almost entirely of whole foods, including whole grains, fruits, vegetables, dairy and occasional meat, rather than "Cheetos and Frosted Flakes". I do eat potatoes, corn, wheat, and legumes, and I have suffered no ill effects from them. I am not lactose intolerant or pre-diabetic, and my body suffers no ill effects from eating dairy or starches. I do however suffer violent gastric upset from goat's milk, don't care to eat a ton of meat, and I'm allergic to shellfish. My doctors say that I am of a healthy weight, and I exercise regularly within my own abilities.
So I've found a diet that works for me. There's no fancy name for it or web pages devoted to endlessly discussing it, and there's no money to be made selling books that say "Eat the diet that works for you."
posted by hydropsyche at 3:45 AM on June 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
So I've found a diet that works for me. There's no fancy name for it or web pages devoted to endlessly discussing it, and there's no money to be made selling books that say "Eat the diet that works for you."
posted by hydropsyche at 3:45 AM on June 4, 2013 [2 favorites]
The biggest selling book in the UK at the moment is 'The 5:2 Diet' (a fasting fad diet).
posted by colie at 8:38 AM on June 4, 2013
posted by colie at 8:38 AM on June 4, 2013
I don't know who's characterizing you as a wacko, but repeating "Paleo is dumb and I got dieting to work for me without having to buy a book like the sheeple who give in to the marketing" just makes you a different kind of evangelist.
What the heck is so hard to understand about the fact that Paleo works for some people, just like not-Paleo works for other people? And that people call it Paleo because that is what the diet is called, not because they actually think they are cavepeople or something every time they eat steak or have some cashew butter?
posted by sweetkid at 8:52 AM on June 4, 2013 [5 favorites]
What the heck is so hard to understand about the fact that Paleo works for some people, just like not-Paleo works for other people? And that people call it Paleo because that is what the diet is called, not because they actually think they are cavepeople or something every time they eat steak or have some cashew butter?
posted by sweetkid at 8:52 AM on June 4, 2013 [5 favorites]
« Older Stifle. | Matt Smith is leaving Doctor Who Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by East Manitoba Regional Junior Kabaddi Champion '94 at 2:34 PM on June 1, 2013 [7 favorites]