N-Words
July 9, 2013 11:37 PM Subscribe
They came from test tubes. They came pale as ghosts with eyes as blue-white as glacier ice. They came first out of Korea. N-Words - a science fiction short story by Ted Kosmatka. Audio version.
It's good, but it's a little 'soft' on a couple of levels; the science is weak (in description of genetic techniques especially, but also in estimation of what neanderthals would be like) and I find its portrayals of how people would act to be somewhat implausible. It's kind of surprising considering the writer.
posted by Mitrovarr at 1:19 AM on July 10, 2013
posted by Mitrovarr at 1:19 AM on July 10, 2013
I like this. One minor thing that's confusing me though... he uses the word "climax predator", which I've not heard of before. Does he mean "apex predator"? Or do the two mean the same thing?
posted by destrius at 1:33 AM on July 10, 2013
posted by destrius at 1:33 AM on July 10, 2013
It's good, but it's a little 'soft' on a couple of levels; the science is weak (in description of genetic techniques especially, but also in estimation of what neanderthals would be like) and I find its portrayals of how people would act to be somewhat implausible. It's kind of surprising considering the writer.
It was "good," though, despite its authors surprising inability to write convincing characters. Well, that's a relief.
posted by a birds at 1:35 AM on July 10, 2013
It was "good," though, despite its authors surprising inability to write convincing characters. Well, that's a relief.
posted by a birds at 1:35 AM on July 10, 2013
Great story, thanks for posting!
posted by Triplanetary at 3:44 AM on July 10, 2013
posted by Triplanetary at 3:44 AM on July 10, 2013
Are neanderthals considered a separate race? A quick Google search indicates there's a greater greater difference between them and humans than between apes and humans. If so, is racism justified in the story?
Thousands of years ago, Neanderthals lost out to humans due the former having more caloric needs than the latter (at least in this story). With the equal playing field of food wealth in the modern age, would that make the Neanderthals of the story superior to humans and if so, is humanity therefore justified in attempting to block or stop them from taking over in the story? Take that a step further, where (at least in America) Asians usually score better in education and standards of living than most other groups in America. Would that justify racism in real life?
The story was fine, sure one can find holes in it. But the questions it raises are thoughtful.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:13 AM on July 10, 2013
Thousands of years ago, Neanderthals lost out to humans due the former having more caloric needs than the latter (at least in this story). With the equal playing field of food wealth in the modern age, would that make the Neanderthals of the story superior to humans and if so, is humanity therefore justified in attempting to block or stop them from taking over in the story? Take that a step further, where (at least in America) Asians usually score better in education and standards of living than most other groups in America. Would that justify racism in real life?
The story was fine, sure one can find holes in it. But the questions it raises are thoughtful.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:13 AM on July 10, 2013
Take that a step further, where (at least in America) Asians usually score better in education and standards of living than most other groups in America. Would that justify racism in real life?
Don't certain universities [UCLA?] cap off the number of Asians they admit for that very reason, because they are afraid they would disproportionately supplant Non-Asian students (many of whom are not really ready for college in the first place)?
posted by Renoroc at 5:21 AM on July 10, 2013
Don't certain universities [UCLA?] cap off the number of Asians they admit for that very reason, because they are afraid they would disproportionately supplant Non-Asian students (many of whom are not really ready for college in the first place)?
posted by Renoroc at 5:21 AM on July 10, 2013
Climax Predator appears to be a confused jumble of "apex predator" and the obsolete "climax community" AKA "climax ecosystem" concept.
posted by idiopath at 5:29 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by idiopath at 5:29 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
A quick Google search indicates there's a greater greater difference between them and humans than between apes and humans.
Neanderthals are the closest evolutionary relatives of present-day humans, and they estimate our DNA diverged from Neanderthals around 825,000 years ago, while chimps diverged from humans about 6.5 million years ago. So no, we're closer to Neanderthals than apes.
posted by penguinliz at 5:40 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Neanderthals are the closest evolutionary relatives of present-day humans, and they estimate our DNA diverged from Neanderthals around 825,000 years ago, while chimps diverged from humans about 6.5 million years ago. So no, we're closer to Neanderthals than apes.
posted by penguinliz at 5:40 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
The science isn't just very weak, it betrays and communicates clear misunderstandings of how biology works rather than the creative imaginings of how it could work that is what science fiction is for.
posted by Blasdelb at 6:05 AM on July 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
"The techniques perfected on dogs and mammoths had worked easily, too, within the genus Homo. Extraction, then PCR to amplify."PCR (helpful animation) is a real thing that is central to understanding what we know about biology, and shamefully few people already understand what is it much less its context in how DNA is manipulated.
posted by Blasdelb at 6:05 AM on July 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
A quick Google search indicates there's a greater greater difference between them and humans than between apes and humans.
It's been argued that all Eurasians and peoples who migrated out of Eurasia, i.e., Native Americans, have varying degrees of Neandertal DNA, Europeans having the highest percentage.
National Geographic article about this.
This is also an awesome documentary about homo sapiens and Neandertal interbreeding.
posted by ChuckRamone at 6:34 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
It's been argued that all Eurasians and peoples who migrated out of Eurasia, i.e., Native Americans, have varying degrees of Neandertal DNA, Europeans having the highest percentage.
National Geographic article about this.
This is also an awesome documentary about homo sapiens and Neandertal interbreeding.
posted by ChuckRamone at 6:34 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Are neanderthals considered a separate race?
I think they're a separate species, or subspecies.
posted by IvoShandor at 6:45 AM on July 10, 2013
I think they're a separate species, or subspecies.
posted by IvoShandor at 6:45 AM on July 10, 2013
Whether the science will work matters about as much as warp-drives and other science fiction conveniences. It's not about that.
I found the racism pretty realistic, though I don't know if I believe in the bigger/smarter hypothesis. It's a cool idea to think about.
The world building was skimpy, basically Today + Cloning (with an implication that poor people in the US were still SOL on healthcare). I think by the time we'd get to that kind of cloning ability, the world would look a bit more different. Also I think the ability to clone in that way would have non-trivial effects on daily life that don't get explored.
posted by emjaybee at 7:09 AM on July 10, 2013
I found the racism pretty realistic, though I don't know if I believe in the bigger/smarter hypothesis. It's a cool idea to think about.
The world building was skimpy, basically Today + Cloning (with an implication that poor people in the US were still SOL on healthcare). I think by the time we'd get to that kind of cloning ability, the world would look a bit more different. Also I think the ability to clone in that way would have non-trivial effects on daily life that don't get explored.
posted by emjaybee at 7:09 AM on July 10, 2013
The world building was skimpy, basically Today + Cloning (with an implication that poor people in the US were still SOL on healthcare).
There didn't needed to be lot of world building, as it was a personal story. The story explained how someone like David came about, but otherwise, it was looking at the personal impact of the neoclones. What more world building did it need?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:39 AM on July 10, 2013
There didn't needed to be lot of world building, as it was a personal story. The story explained how someone like David came about, but otherwise, it was looking at the personal impact of the neoclones. What more world building did it need?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:39 AM on July 10, 2013
This was a great story. Well balanced ... and about the plausibility of science involved: familyguypeterwhocares
It was interesting and relevant for our times, well written and makes us think about bigger issues/challenges we face.
It definitely is interesting to imagine humanity's reactions to a superior specie in our midst.
posted by TheLittlePrince at 8:19 AM on July 10, 2013
It was interesting and relevant for our times, well written and makes us think about bigger issues/challenges we face.
It definitely is interesting to imagine humanity's reactions to a superior specie in our midst.
posted by TheLittlePrince at 8:19 AM on July 10, 2013
Great piece.
I loved this line: You look at your child’s face, and you don’t wonder whose side you’re on. You know. That side.
posted by Aizkolari at 8:24 AM on July 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
I loved this line: You look at your child’s face, and you don’t wonder whose side you’re on. You know. That side.
posted by Aizkolari at 8:24 AM on July 10, 2013 [3 favorites]
Great story, thanks. I think it's all too plausible that the first human clones (probably human, not Neanderthal) are already out of diapers in a hidden lab somewhere...
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:53 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by RedOrGreen at 8:53 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Blasdelb, could you elaborate on the misunderstandings here? Surely the first steps to successfully cloning an extinct species would be to amplify and then sequence whatever fossil DNA was recovered, and this ignorant layman would also have expected PCR to be used for the amplification.
I guess they just transplanted whole nuclei when (IMHO unsuccessfully) cloning that extinct Ibex? But that may have failed due to degradation of the DNA; presumably the way to fix that would be to instead sequence DNA from multiple nuclei so as to identify and fix the errors.
posted by roystgnr at 9:51 AM on July 10, 2013
I guess they just transplanted whole nuclei when (IMHO unsuccessfully) cloning that extinct Ibex? But that may have failed due to degradation of the DNA; presumably the way to fix that would be to instead sequence DNA from multiple nuclei so as to identify and fix the errors.
posted by roystgnr at 9:51 AM on July 10, 2013
It's an interesting take/re-hash of the "better human" trope .. (ie Khan, X-men, etc)
posted by k5.user at 9:52 AM on July 10, 2013
posted by k5.user at 9:52 AM on July 10, 2013
What more world building did it need?
A world with technologies that had, for several decades already, allowed cloning of something as complicated as a person from fossils doesn't seem like it would look the same in exactly every other respect. I would expect some sort of societal disruption far bigger than people hating on Neanderthal clones. You might expect overpopulation and/or fights over reproductive rights, enslavement, cloning people that are mentally damaged so they can be controlled, chimeras, etc. Not to mention advancements in other transformative technologies. Other writers have grappled with those things.
It's a short story, so I'm not being super judgemental, here. I like the premise and the characters. I wouldn't mind reading a longer story with those people in it, and honestly if the author did write a whole book, I think they would be forced to deal with some of those issues.
It's kind of the same feeling I get from the Jetsons. You have jet cars and robots and food pills, but Mom still stays home and Dad still goes to the office and it's Our World but with little rings around everything and it floats. But a world where you didn't need people to do work or clean houses or cook (or grow?) food wouldn't look like a 50s suburbia at all. Unless you had a despotic government that made it do so.
posted by emjaybee at 10:08 AM on July 10, 2013
A world with technologies that had, for several decades already, allowed cloning of something as complicated as a person from fossils doesn't seem like it would look the same in exactly every other respect. I would expect some sort of societal disruption far bigger than people hating on Neanderthal clones. You might expect overpopulation and/or fights over reproductive rights, enslavement, cloning people that are mentally damaged so they can be controlled, chimeras, etc. Not to mention advancements in other transformative technologies. Other writers have grappled with those things.
It's a short story, so I'm not being super judgemental, here. I like the premise and the characters. I wouldn't mind reading a longer story with those people in it, and honestly if the author did write a whole book, I think they would be forced to deal with some of those issues.
It's kind of the same feeling I get from the Jetsons. You have jet cars and robots and food pills, but Mom still stays home and Dad still goes to the office and it's Our World but with little rings around everything and it floats. But a world where you didn't need people to do work or clean houses or cook (or grow?) food wouldn't look like a 50s suburbia at all. Unless you had a despotic government that made it do so.
posted by emjaybee at 10:08 AM on July 10, 2013
“Sometimes I think people can be too sensitive.”
“I used to think that too,” I said. “But it’s a fallacy.”
“It is?”
“Yes, it is impossible to be too sensitive.”
“What do you mean?”
“Each person is exactly as sensitive as life experience has made them. It is impossible to be more so.”
Yes. This is perfect. The idea that the story needed more cloning science and fantasy worlding is eyeroll-worthy (correcting specifically used bits of biology that are incorrect is different and welcome, though); this is what the story is really about.
posted by byanyothername at 10:33 AM on July 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
“I used to think that too,” I said. “But it’s a fallacy.”
“It is?”
“Yes, it is impossible to be too sensitive.”
“What do you mean?”
“Each person is exactly as sensitive as life experience has made them. It is impossible to be more so.”
Yes. This is perfect. The idea that the story needed more cloning science and fantasy worlding is eyeroll-worthy (correcting specifically used bits of biology that are incorrect is different and welcome, though); this is what the story is really about.
posted by byanyothername at 10:33 AM on July 10, 2013 [4 favorites]
My one complaint is that I wish someone had told the author that it's now impossible to have it not be ridiculous to have a character all pensive-distant say "there's a storm coming" as solemn foreshadowing.
Other than that, it was nice. Biggest quiet grunt of satisfaction for me was:
“I know it may be politically incorrect,” she said, then paused. “But sometimes I just wish those slope-heads would stop stirring up trouble all the time. I mean, you’d think they’d be grateful.”
I said nothing. I wished I could unlearn this about her.
Yeah. I think everyone's been there.
posted by Drastic at 10:51 AM on July 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
Other than that, it was nice. Biggest quiet grunt of satisfaction for me was:
“I know it may be politically incorrect,” she said, then paused. “But sometimes I just wish those slope-heads would stop stirring up trouble all the time. I mean, you’d think they’d be grateful.”
I said nothing. I wished I could unlearn this about her.
Yeah. I think everyone's been there.
posted by Drastic at 10:51 AM on July 10, 2013 [2 favorites]
roystgnr: Surely the first steps to successfully cloning an extinct species would be to amplify and then sequence whatever fossil DNA was recovered, and this ignorant layman would also have expected PCR to be used for the amplification.
Actually, I'd have guessed next-generation sequencing, probably some variant of pyrosequencing. That's what is used for genome sequencing now.
However, I'd say the main problem is that the story presents it as if it was a simple progression of "Extract DNA -> PCR amplify -> Get clone". While extracting DNA and possibly PCR are part of the process, it definitely doesn't work like that. You are missing all of the steps that are actually difficult, and not known today. A better sequence would be:
Extract DNA -> Next-generation sequencing -> Sequence genome -> Construct synthetic chromosomes -> Conduct artificial epigenetic imprinting -> Implant synthetic genome -> Create clone
Or, alternative, if you don't understand the science, don't describe the process at all. Or make something up. But don't get easy science wrong, that just makes it look like you didn't do your research.
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:23 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Actually, I'd have guessed next-generation sequencing, probably some variant of pyrosequencing. That's what is used for genome sequencing now.
However, I'd say the main problem is that the story presents it as if it was a simple progression of "Extract DNA -> PCR amplify -> Get clone". While extracting DNA and possibly PCR are part of the process, it definitely doesn't work like that. You are missing all of the steps that are actually difficult, and not known today. A better sequence would be:
Extract DNA -> Next-generation sequencing -> Sequence genome -> Construct synthetic chromosomes -> Conduct artificial epigenetic imprinting -> Implant synthetic genome -> Create clone
Or, alternative, if you don't understand the science, don't describe the process at all. Or make something up. But don't get easy science wrong, that just makes it look like you didn't do your research.
posted by Mitrovarr at 11:23 AM on July 10, 2013 [1 favorite]
Someone needs to make a plug-in that makes SciFi podcasts sound like old-time radio SciFi. Give 'em that funky analog patina.
posted by Twang at 11:33 AM on July 10, 2013
posted by Twang at 11:33 AM on July 10, 2013
Oh, I had forgotten to mention that cloned Neanderthals existed in Jasper Fforde's Tuesday Next novels, (along with dodos and mammoths). They are also somewhat mystically knowing and very smart, I thought of them immediately when I read this.
Fforde's universe is an alternate-and-extremely-absurd one though. The mammoths migrate once a year and smash people's gardens. Tuesday has a pet dodo with missing wings due to an incomplete sequencing. Etc.
posted by emjaybee at 12:28 PM on July 10, 2013
Fforde's universe is an alternate-and-extremely-absurd one though. The mammoths migrate once a year and smash people's gardens. Tuesday has a pet dodo with missing wings due to an incomplete sequencing. Etc.
posted by emjaybee at 12:28 PM on July 10, 2013
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posted by Daddy-O at 12:27 AM on July 10, 2013