a novel idea for saving arcade games
July 17, 2013 10:22 PM Subscribe
In 2007, the arcade cabinet industry was still bringing in $4 billion per year, although down from $8 billion in 2004. By 2012, revenues for coin-operated machines dropped to $35 million. The decline correlates well with the advent for the smart phone, which seems to have created less need for coin-operated distractions in the venues in which arcade games still resided. This opened the door for a novel new idea that the market seems poised to support: All You Can Arcade, which allows you to "have your favorite arcade games delivered to your living room for only $75 per month. ... No delivery or pickup fees, and keep the games as long as you want." It's like Netflix, but for bigger things.
"All You Can Arcade" link not working for me. Gives me:
A Database Error Occurred
Unable to connect to your database server using the provided settings.
Filename: core/Loader.php
Line Number: 346
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 10:37 PM on July 17, 2013
A Database Error Occurred
Unable to connect to your database server using the provided settings.
Filename: core/Loader.php
Line Number: 346
posted by InsertNiftyNameHere at 10:37 PM on July 17, 2013
In Denver we've got "1-Up" and "2-Up..." Bar-cades. I haven't been to the latter yet, but the first is a hipster hangout with some nights being better than others for serious game enjoyment vs. competing with crowds including people just kind of laying on the games or pinball machines. The bar food + beer + old school arcade format works pretty well, especially if the prices are kept reasonable -- $0.25 games, $5 decent beers IIRC, $2-3.00 PBR or cheap canned beers like Hamm's and 40 ouncers of Old E if you're feeling adventurous)
posted by lordaych at 10:48 PM on July 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by lordaych at 10:48 PM on July 17, 2013 [1 favorite]
"All You Can Arcade" link not working for me.
Must be a recent problem, as I checked it right after I posted, and it was working ok.
posted by SpacemanStix at 10:49 PM on July 17, 2013
Must be a recent problem, as I checked it right after I posted, and it was working ok.
posted by SpacemanStix at 10:49 PM on July 17, 2013
SpacemanStix: ""All You Can Arcade" link not working for me.
Must be a recent problem, as I checked it right after I posted, and it was working ok."
Worked for me, or I wouldn't have made the crack about Central Illinois (as there is nothing for my zip code.)
posted by Samizdata at 11:02 PM on July 17, 2013
Must be a recent problem, as I checked it right after I posted, and it was working ok."
Worked for me, or I wouldn't have made the crack about Central Illinois (as there is nothing for my zip code.)
posted by Samizdata at 11:02 PM on July 17, 2013
Mod note: We'll assume the site problem will be fixed up at some point; in the meantime the first link is the info meat anyway, since the "All You Can Arcade" site is mostly for ordering/finding out if it's available in your area... from what I could see before it plotzed.
posted by taz (staff) at 11:23 PM on July 17, 2013
posted by taz (staff) at 11:23 PM on July 17, 2013
taz: "[We'll assume the site problem will be fixed up at some point; in the meantime the first link is the info meat anyway, since the "All You Can Arcade" site is mostly for ordering/finding out if it's available in your area... from what I could see before it plotzed. ]"
Can I ask how you guys find this? Did a radioactive PHPbb bite you and give you super mod powers or something?
posted by Samizdata at 11:33 PM on July 17, 2013
Can I ask how you guys find this? Did a radioactive PHPbb bite you and give you super mod powers or something?
posted by Samizdata at 11:33 PM on July 17, 2013
And they'll lug the cabinets up and down the stairs for me once a month too? Impressive (and painful)!
posted by zachlipton at 12:18 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by zachlipton at 12:18 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
I… hope nobody else in my area finds out about this for a few weeks.
posted by ob1quixote at 12:21 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by ob1quixote at 12:21 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Very strange game selection. A lot of oldies, but not necessarily goodies. Still, if I were rich I'd give it a go even though Nickel City seems to have a better selection.
I really wish I could find an arcade with some of the older games with special controllers like Lucky & Wild or Police Trainer.
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:23 AM on July 18, 2013
I really wish I could find an arcade with some of the older games with special controllers like Lucky & Wild or Police Trainer.
posted by BrotherCaine at 12:23 AM on July 18, 2013
Aaaaand, the site is working again. But, yeah... the service is only available in the SF/Sacramento area so far, I think. Here's the blog, with just a couple of entries.
(Samizdata, We swing from threads... action is our reward. Broken links are a great big bang up, you'll find us whenever there's a hang up.)
posted by taz at 12:27 AM on July 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
(Samizdata, We swing from threads... action is our reward. Broken links are a great big bang up, you'll find us whenever there's a hang up.)
posted by taz at 12:27 AM on July 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
Lovely idea...unless you live in Central Illinois.
Or, surprisingly, Los Angeles. Perhaps the database is down. Or this is an idea looking for partners.
posted by davejay at 12:28 AM on July 18, 2013
Or, surprisingly, Los Angeles. Perhaps the database is down. Or this is an idea looking for partners.
posted by davejay at 12:28 AM on July 18, 2013
So this timeframe also correlates with the mass appearance of cheap chinese bootleg mame machines - they seem to be in every pub here, and have pretty much replaced legit arcade machines entirely in that area. I would not be surprised if this is a much larger contributor, from an industry wide POV.
(my favourite thing about these, btw, is there is a mame driver that emulates the mame machine, so you can mame in your mame)
That said, if this service was anywhere near me, I would subscribe the shit out of this.
posted by jaymzjulian at 12:40 AM on July 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
(my favourite thing about these, btw, is there is a mame driver that emulates the mame machine, so you can mame in your mame)
That said, if this service was anywhere near me, I would subscribe the shit out of this.
posted by jaymzjulian at 12:40 AM on July 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
In Denver we've got "1-Up" and "2-Up..." Bar-cades. I haven't been to the latter yet, but the first is a hipster hangout with some nights being better than others for serious game enjoyment vs. competing with crowds including people just kind of laying on the games or pinball machines. The bar food + beer + old school arcade format works pretty well, especially if the prices are kept reasonable -- $0.25 games, $5 decent beers IIRC, $2-3.00 PBR or cheap canned beers like Hamm's and 40 ouncers of Old E if you're feeling adventurous)I'm considering doing this back home. I've been wondering if bars like this, buy all the machines outright or rent them with a service agreement.
posted by lordaych at 10:48 PM on July 17 [+] [!]
Cause once beer gets accidently spilt into cabinets the service agreement cost are going to rocket.
So buying all the machines ya self seems like a high out lay, but most cost effective over time. Then having a good relationship with a technician.
posted by Burgatron at 2:12 AM on July 18, 2013
Couldn't I just save $75 until I have enough to buy a pre-built MAME cabinet that'll host as many games as I can throw at it?
Which brings me to this question: Is there anywhere you can buy pre-built MAME cabinets?
posted by DU at 2:37 AM on July 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
Which brings me to this question: Is there anywhere you can buy pre-built MAME cabinets?
posted by DU at 2:37 AM on July 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
Loved these when I was in my 20's.
But now, forget playing in heels, I want a recliner!
Can you get too old for nostalgia?
posted by moonlily at 3:34 AM on July 18, 2013
But now, forget playing in heels, I want a recliner!
Can you get too old for nostalgia?
posted by moonlily at 3:34 AM on July 18, 2013
On arcades vs. smart phones:
Smart phones stole the arcade casual-gaming niche. But it doesn't mean that arcade games need die out. They just need to be designed to do things smart phones can't.
There's one big thing that smart phones can't do, and that's local social gaming. With smart phones, you might play alone, with close friends, or with strangers on the internet. What they don't do well is let you play games for spectators, or with others in your community. Games which rely on a large machine, weird hardware, or somehow bring the events of other local players into your game might also work. Inventing such a game, I think, would be a very interesting design challenge.
posted by JHarris at 3:46 AM on July 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
Smart phones stole the arcade casual-gaming niche. But it doesn't mean that arcade games need die out. They just need to be designed to do things smart phones can't.
There's one big thing that smart phones can't do, and that's local social gaming. With smart phones, you might play alone, with close friends, or with strangers on the internet. What they don't do well is let you play games for spectators, or with others in your community. Games which rely on a large machine, weird hardware, or somehow bring the events of other local players into your game might also work. Inventing such a game, I think, would be a very interesting design challenge.
posted by JHarris at 3:46 AM on July 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
Games which rely on a large machine, weird hardware, or somehow bring the events of other local players into your game might also work. Inventing such a game, I think, would be a very interesting design challenge.
I present The Eleven Herbs & Space Experience!
posted by RonButNotStupid at 3:55 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
I present The Eleven Herbs & Space Experience!
posted by RonButNotStupid at 3:55 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
To me, publicly placed cabinets and personal mobile devices fill different needs. These number seem to contradict that intuition, which makes me very curious. I would love to see a really comprehensive graph of the revenue of the arcade industry from its inception. I think it would be fascinating to see which technologies caused disruptions.
Personally, I think arcade cabinets are going to be around until the eighties generation is in the grave. I think someone's going to come along and revive the industry soon. One of the major developers will stick a wireless server in a cabinet that serves games for Google Glass some such next gen tech, and then arcades will be back in force.
posted by Pipedreamergrey at 4:16 AM on July 18, 2013
Personally, I think arcade cabinets are going to be around until the eighties generation is in the grave. I think someone's going to come along and revive the industry soon. One of the major developers will stick a wireless server in a cabinet that serves games for Google Glass some such next gen tech, and then arcades will be back in force.
posted by Pipedreamergrey at 4:16 AM on July 18, 2013
JHarris has got it. When I go to a arcade I'm either looking for pinball or a novel game experience. Games with unique hardware requirements are often key here. DDR or Rock Band arr examples that became popular enough you can get them for home play. But Silent Scope or the Much Warriors pods I have to go to a dedicated machine to play those.
Please no more rows of Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat. Give me games with multiple screens, or holograms, or lasers I have to manipulate with prisms. Or if you're going to have something like a racing game don't give me two pedals and a cheap little steering wheel like I can buy for home. Make sure the wheel has force feedback, put me in a seat, make the gear shift feel like it's attached to a real gearbox, make me feel it when I accelerate and brake.
posted by MrBobaFett at 4:42 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Please no more rows of Street Fighter and Mortal Kombat. Give me games with multiple screens, or holograms, or lasers I have to manipulate with prisms. Or if you're going to have something like a racing game don't give me two pedals and a cheap little steering wheel like I can buy for home. Make sure the wheel has force feedback, put me in a seat, make the gear shift feel like it's attached to a real gearbox, make me feel it when I accelerate and brake.
posted by MrBobaFett at 4:42 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
A number of factors will see its revival.
1) Glasses-free 3D surround HDTV at 4k - home consoles can't do this, they can barely do 1080p. It's a pretty immersive and social experience.
2) Bars increasingly need to do more to drag people out of the house - good food, clean and comfortable decor, and entertainment - live mic nights are no longer enough. Barcades are a thing, and momentum is growing.
3) Hardware is cheap, and programming know-how is plentiful. One console can run a dozen different games without having to forklift the box.
4) First arcade machine to offer a facebook, foursquare and twitter hook to report high scores - wins.
5) Casual gaming is huge. Expect to see wall-sized, high-rez multi-player versions of bejeweled, cut the rope, etc - phone games made into fun social activities.
6) Kinnect-style controllerless gaming - set up eight of them along a wall for line-dancing games, or street-fighter games where the best pose makes the biggest blast.
The industry needs to shake out a bit more, and DIY and small startups will start to step in to pick up the opportunities the entrenched players are leaving on the table.
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:49 AM on July 18, 2013
1) Glasses-free 3D surround HDTV at 4k - home consoles can't do this, they can barely do 1080p. It's a pretty immersive and social experience.
2) Bars increasingly need to do more to drag people out of the house - good food, clean and comfortable decor, and entertainment - live mic nights are no longer enough. Barcades are a thing, and momentum is growing.
3) Hardware is cheap, and programming know-how is plentiful. One console can run a dozen different games without having to forklift the box.
4) First arcade machine to offer a facebook, foursquare and twitter hook to report high scores - wins.
5) Casual gaming is huge. Expect to see wall-sized, high-rez multi-player versions of bejeweled, cut the rope, etc - phone games made into fun social activities.
6) Kinnect-style controllerless gaming - set up eight of them along a wall for line-dancing games, or street-fighter games where the best pose makes the biggest blast.
The industry needs to shake out a bit more, and DIY and small startups will start to step in to pick up the opportunities the entrenched players are leaving on the table.
posted by Slap*Happy at 4:49 AM on July 18, 2013
Slap*Happy, I love your optimism, but I hate your (proposed) future.
Can't we please just teach more people how to service Tempest machines?
posted by ShutterBun at 5:27 AM on July 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
Can't we please just teach more people how to service Tempest machines?
posted by ShutterBun at 5:27 AM on July 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
Meh, no Defender, Missile Command, or Stargate in my area. Pass.
posted by HyperBlue at 5:36 AM on July 18, 2013
posted by HyperBlue at 5:36 AM on July 18, 2013
I think there's a bigger market here for businesses. You can't be a real startup until you have an arcade game in the break room, and this will tide companies over until they can afford their own Gauntlet.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:24 AM on July 18, 2013
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:24 AM on July 18, 2013
Couldn't I just save $75 until I have enough to buy a pre-built MAME cabinet that'll host as many games as I can throw at it?
Which brings me to this question: Is there anywhere you can buy pre-built MAME cabinets?
Arcade purists hate MAME cabinets. Then again, arcade purists already have garages and storage spaces full of cabinets anyway, so they probably don't need this service either.
In general arcade machines aren't that expensive to buy anyway, it's the space requirements and maintenance that kills you.
posted by kmz at 6:32 AM on July 18, 2013
Which brings me to this question: Is there anywhere you can buy pre-built MAME cabinets?
Arcade purists hate MAME cabinets. Then again, arcade purists already have garages and storage spaces full of cabinets anyway, so they probably don't need this service either.
In general arcade machines aren't that expensive to buy anyway, it's the space requirements and maintenance that kills you.
posted by kmz at 6:32 AM on July 18, 2013
If you're up for a road trip in March, you should come to my town for the fourth (I think) annual Louisville Arcade Expo. Tons of collectors bring their machines to a hotel meeting space, set them on free play, and once you pay to get in you can play all you want. There are also rooms set up for classic consoles. It's pretty amazing.
posted by jbickers at 6:32 AM on July 18, 2013
posted by jbickers at 6:32 AM on July 18, 2013
Which brings me to this question: Is there anywhere you can buy pre-built MAME cabinets?
The only companies that tried doing it as a legit business all went under either due to legal concerns or because there's not that big of a market in the first place. Also they were extremely expensive for no good reason. These days your best bet is probably eBay. Or check the forums at BYOAC.
In general arcade machines aren't that expensive to buy anyway, it's the space requirements and maintenance that kills you.
For being a big plywood box with a crappy low-def TV monitor and $40 worth of joysticks/buttons they are usually way overpriced. As for maintenance issues, in my experience with MAME conversions at least, the only thing that really tends to be a huge pain is keeping the ancient CRT monitors working. They are flaky and dangerous to mess with, aside from being technically difficult to work well with in a MAME setup. If you switch out a CRT arcade monitor for an LCD screen or even an old CRT computer monitor it's much easier if less aesthetically pleasing/authentic. Everything else is just a bunch of really simple and cheap controls hooked up to a computer by a bunch of wires. I am much more of a software guy than a hardware guy and I've managed to keep my MAME machines in physical working order with only a few issues for the last decade or so. As for space requirements, a full size standup arcade machine is mainly just a pain to move around and taller than it really needs to be. Less spacey than a pool table though. There are options for making or buying something smaller though, like a cocktail or bartop cabinet, or just having a small box for the controls and a tiny computer and having the whole thing hook up to a monitor or TV.
There's one big thing that smart phones can't do, and that's local social gaming. With smart phones, you might play alone, with close friends, or with strangers on the internet. What they don't do well is let you play games for spectators, or with others in your community.
Issues like location, convenience, logistics of player matching, and cost are always going to be a heavier disincentive than the demand for local social gaming with strangers though. The biggest recent social arcade-only game I've seen in a long time is Golden Tee, which is ubiquitous in sports bars, and even then it tends to only be played by groups of people who already know each other and is too expensive for casual players. Even when I go to geek-related conventions that have huge rooms full of arcade and console games, the only ones that are regularly played with strangers and spectators are DDR and Guitar Hero type games. And again, those tend to be more played by groups of friends and tend to be too expensive for most casual gamers to learn how to play out in public without buying a console version to practice at home. It's a niche that arcades could still theoretically outperform consoles and smart phones in, but it's probably not a big enough niche to support a real thriving industry like the one that existed back when arcades were popular.
posted by burnmp3s at 7:02 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
The only companies that tried doing it as a legit business all went under either due to legal concerns or because there's not that big of a market in the first place. Also they were extremely expensive for no good reason. These days your best bet is probably eBay. Or check the forums at BYOAC.
In general arcade machines aren't that expensive to buy anyway, it's the space requirements and maintenance that kills you.
For being a big plywood box with a crappy low-def TV monitor and $40 worth of joysticks/buttons they are usually way overpriced. As for maintenance issues, in my experience with MAME conversions at least, the only thing that really tends to be a huge pain is keeping the ancient CRT monitors working. They are flaky and dangerous to mess with, aside from being technically difficult to work well with in a MAME setup. If you switch out a CRT arcade monitor for an LCD screen or even an old CRT computer monitor it's much easier if less aesthetically pleasing/authentic. Everything else is just a bunch of really simple and cheap controls hooked up to a computer by a bunch of wires. I am much more of a software guy than a hardware guy and I've managed to keep my MAME machines in physical working order with only a few issues for the last decade or so. As for space requirements, a full size standup arcade machine is mainly just a pain to move around and taller than it really needs to be. Less spacey than a pool table though. There are options for making or buying something smaller though, like a cocktail or bartop cabinet, or just having a small box for the controls and a tiny computer and having the whole thing hook up to a monitor or TV.
There's one big thing that smart phones can't do, and that's local social gaming. With smart phones, you might play alone, with close friends, or with strangers on the internet. What they don't do well is let you play games for spectators, or with others in your community.
Issues like location, convenience, logistics of player matching, and cost are always going to be a heavier disincentive than the demand for local social gaming with strangers though. The biggest recent social arcade-only game I've seen in a long time is Golden Tee, which is ubiquitous in sports bars, and even then it tends to only be played by groups of people who already know each other and is too expensive for casual players. Even when I go to geek-related conventions that have huge rooms full of arcade and console games, the only ones that are regularly played with strangers and spectators are DDR and Guitar Hero type games. And again, those tend to be more played by groups of friends and tend to be too expensive for most casual gamers to learn how to play out in public without buying a console version to practice at home. It's a niche that arcades could still theoretically outperform consoles and smart phones in, but it's probably not a big enough niche to support a real thriving industry like the one that existed back when arcades were popular.
posted by burnmp3s at 7:02 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
I wouldn't classify Golden Tee as "social". Hardcore players were playing in tournaments for cash prizes. Machines that were linked to the manufacturer's network and active in tournaments made 20x what a standalone game would make.
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:32 AM on July 18, 2013
posted by JoeZydeco at 7:32 AM on July 18, 2013
I've got four cabinets of which three are virgin and only one is a MAME box. I also build (fresh from my own weird head) and rebuild pinballs. I have no illusion that the arcades I grew up with as a kid in the 80s are coming back but I do think that these big monsters have more life than some think because of people like me who keep them going and still love to play them. There appear to be more arcade/pinball/darts/pool/beer places popping up around here lately and that does not make me sad. I am also wondering how this will die with Gen X because I have gotten my kids into this much more than console or smartphone gaming and I have to believe there are other people out there like me and my kids.
My dream is still to have an original unmolested RoadBlasters cabinet but that is getting less and less likely every day.
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 8:29 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
My dream is still to have an original unmolested RoadBlasters cabinet but that is getting less and less likely every day.
posted by Clinging to the Wreckage at 8:29 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
I'm rocking Hyperspin at my house through my XBMC setup, not just for MAME, but various emulators. I'm not a big gamer, but it gets rave reviews from visitors. "Want to play some N64?" "Which game?" "Any of them."
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:42 AM on July 18, 2013
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:42 AM on July 18, 2013
I just wanted to add that the sight of that Star Wars stand-up covered in dust makes my inner 14 year-old want to cry.
posted by ob1quixote at 8:57 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by ob1quixote at 8:57 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Arcade purists hate MAME cabinets.
In a real sense, you're only as much of a purist as money allows. I wouldn't have played hardly any arcade video games in the past 20 years if it weren't for MAME. As the middle class continues to erode, this will become more and more common, unless arcade machines make a return to availability in the wild.
Issues like location, convenience, logistics of player matching, and cost are always going to be a heavier disincentive than the demand for local social gaming with strangers though.
Not intending to offend, but for some reason I'm singularly unimpressed by this sentence. The whole thing feels like a handwavy "but that will never work," a big ol' appeal to inertia. I understand you're making a real point intellectually, but I'm having difficulty rendering it upon my mental model of the market. It is a weird thing with me, I'm remarking more for my own mental limitations than as a complaint about your point.
Even when I go to geek-related conventions that have huge rooms full of arcade and console games, the only ones that are regularly played with strangers and spectators are DDR and Guitar Hero type games.
My point is, we need new kinds of games for these venues. Something that, like those music games, works as performance. To brainstorm this for a bit--
I'm thinking maybe something like an adventure game played out over many short-session episodes, with a character that builds between sessions, like Gauntlet Legends. A bit like Zelda but with a timer for each session, although I don't think it should be a flat clock but more like Gauntlet-style timed health loss, that the player can push back against with extensions and skillful play. Graphics would be fairly large and detailed, but also cartoony, sort of like how Square Enix uses for characters in 3D versions of classic Final Fantasy games, and the player's minor successes and failures in each session would be humorously overplayed on the screen to accentuate performance. In the roguelike style, a lot of each session would be randomized, to provide a wide variety of possible play experience each session. I'm unsure if it should be a Majora's Mask-style reset to zero at the start of each session except for important things, but that sounds interesting -- in addition to some important items and quests, some aspects of a player's session each time would also persist into later games. Maybe a permanent boost to one stat, small but just large enough that it can be felt. Take SNES/DS Shiren the Wanderer's journey-of-a-thousand-lives as inspirational for this. But more instructive, I think, is Kirby Air Ride's amazingly addictive City Trial mode, which itself only lasts up to seven minutes per play but still resets to zero at the start of each game.
Keep costs low (25 cents is an amazingly ingrained cultural price point) but keep game length very short, maybe a minute average per play. Appeal to the genre of Wario Ware-style minigames, get started fast, don't waste time with cutscenes. I'd also think there should be community goals, where all the players' efforts together build towards unlocking major features, like new realms to explore, adventures to go on, character classes or shops, and also having some kind of customization between players, like a customizable house in a flat place in the world that other players' characters can visit. It should still feel like skill plays a strong role in a player's performance, unlike the MMORPG model where level and grinding feel like everything, so I'd suggest diminishing returns with many plays.
I'm just blueskying here, but I have ideas for implementation for each of these things. It is a very interesting problem.
posted by JHarris at 10:15 AM on July 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
In a real sense, you're only as much of a purist as money allows. I wouldn't have played hardly any arcade video games in the past 20 years if it weren't for MAME. As the middle class continues to erode, this will become more and more common, unless arcade machines make a return to availability in the wild.
Issues like location, convenience, logistics of player matching, and cost are always going to be a heavier disincentive than the demand for local social gaming with strangers though.
Not intending to offend, but for some reason I'm singularly unimpressed by this sentence. The whole thing feels like a handwavy "but that will never work," a big ol' appeal to inertia. I understand you're making a real point intellectually, but I'm having difficulty rendering it upon my mental model of the market. It is a weird thing with me, I'm remarking more for my own mental limitations than as a complaint about your point.
Even when I go to geek-related conventions that have huge rooms full of arcade and console games, the only ones that are regularly played with strangers and spectators are DDR and Guitar Hero type games.
My point is, we need new kinds of games for these venues. Something that, like those music games, works as performance. To brainstorm this for a bit--
I'm thinking maybe something like an adventure game played out over many short-session episodes, with a character that builds between sessions, like Gauntlet Legends. A bit like Zelda but with a timer for each session, although I don't think it should be a flat clock but more like Gauntlet-style timed health loss, that the player can push back against with extensions and skillful play. Graphics would be fairly large and detailed, but also cartoony, sort of like how Square Enix uses for characters in 3D versions of classic Final Fantasy games, and the player's minor successes and failures in each session would be humorously overplayed on the screen to accentuate performance. In the roguelike style, a lot of each session would be randomized, to provide a wide variety of possible play experience each session. I'm unsure if it should be a Majora's Mask-style reset to zero at the start of each session except for important things, but that sounds interesting -- in addition to some important items and quests, some aspects of a player's session each time would also persist into later games. Maybe a permanent boost to one stat, small but just large enough that it can be felt. Take SNES/DS Shiren the Wanderer's journey-of-a-thousand-lives as inspirational for this. But more instructive, I think, is Kirby Air Ride's amazingly addictive City Trial mode, which itself only lasts up to seven minutes per play but still resets to zero at the start of each game.
Keep costs low (25 cents is an amazingly ingrained cultural price point) but keep game length very short, maybe a minute average per play. Appeal to the genre of Wario Ware-style minigames, get started fast, don't waste time with cutscenes. I'd also think there should be community goals, where all the players' efforts together build towards unlocking major features, like new realms to explore, adventures to go on, character classes or shops, and also having some kind of customization between players, like a customizable house in a flat place in the world that other players' characters can visit. It should still feel like skill plays a strong role in a player's performance, unlike the MMORPG model where level and grinding feel like everything, so I'd suggest diminishing returns with many plays.
I'm just blueskying here, but I have ideas for implementation for each of these things. It is a very interesting problem.
posted by JHarris at 10:15 AM on July 18, 2013 [3 favorites]
Oh, idea! Maybe the whole thing should have a humorous, semi-satirical community theater/public LARPing vibe. Like, a theatrical thread connecting the sessions, a curtain opening at the start and closing at the end, the characters in prop armor carrying plastic weapons, at least at first. Other player's characters could serve as NPCs, Mii-style, even when they're not playing. Maybe even as opponents. That could be very big I think, it's a way of playing even when you're not at the controls.
posted by JHarris at 10:20 AM on July 18, 2013
posted by JHarris at 10:20 AM on July 18, 2013
Dammit, I can't express how frustrating it is to have a head of steam built up around a project and the sure knowledge that I won't ever have a chance to advance them or put them into development. If I drank, it really would drive me to the bottle, constantly.
posted by JHarris at 10:29 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by JHarris at 10:29 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
I know that feeling all too well, JHarris. Sigh.
Anyway, I think JHarris is nailing it, but I would also emphasize new games built for unique hardware and social/spectator play. I'm not really aware of anything like DDR that's been made in the past...decade or so; most of the games that are getting namedropped in this thread are older (which is not a mark against quality, but novelty, creativity and freshness in arcades is a good thing). I'm sure the overall decline of arcades is a huge part of that.
A couple of other things I can think of:
1) I don't go to my local arcade (I have a local arcade! always blows my mind when I remember) because I don't have kids and I don't often babysit for others. I feel like I'm too old to be there as an adult, because it's mostly a space for kids. I'm fine with that on some level, but it also makes me a bit sad because this place is, from what I understand, not a big revenue generator that stays open because its owner wants it to be there for the community. I'd love to support that, but. Yeah. Most arcades in this region go with the "family restaurant" or "kidzone" theme; one is a hole in the wall with a bunch of loud colorful blippy bloppy machines (❤) but it's too far to be a thing I can really go to. I wonder how much that theme helps or hurts modern arcades?
2) Arcades are expensive! Instead of the coin-op model, I wonder how well a "membership" arcade would do--pay a flat monthly/annual fee and get access to games without getting charged each time you want to play. Maybe have a little snack & coffee shop or bar inside to generate additional revenue. Or sell games and merchandise, too. Why not? This seems like a better avenue than renting your own cabinets, because arcades are fundamentally social and I don't know if there's wide interest in the games outside that context.
posted by byanyothername at 11:33 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Anyway, I think JHarris is nailing it, but I would also emphasize new games built for unique hardware and social/spectator play. I'm not really aware of anything like DDR that's been made in the past...decade or so; most of the games that are getting namedropped in this thread are older (which is not a mark against quality, but novelty, creativity and freshness in arcades is a good thing). I'm sure the overall decline of arcades is a huge part of that.
A couple of other things I can think of:
1) I don't go to my local arcade (I have a local arcade! always blows my mind when I remember) because I don't have kids and I don't often babysit for others. I feel like I'm too old to be there as an adult, because it's mostly a space for kids. I'm fine with that on some level, but it also makes me a bit sad because this place is, from what I understand, not a big revenue generator that stays open because its owner wants it to be there for the community. I'd love to support that, but. Yeah. Most arcades in this region go with the "family restaurant" or "kidzone" theme; one is a hole in the wall with a bunch of loud colorful blippy bloppy machines (❤) but it's too far to be a thing I can really go to. I wonder how much that theme helps or hurts modern arcades?
2) Arcades are expensive! Instead of the coin-op model, I wonder how well a "membership" arcade would do--pay a flat monthly/annual fee and get access to games without getting charged each time you want to play. Maybe have a little snack & coffee shop or bar inside to generate additional revenue. Or sell games and merchandise, too. Why not? This seems like a better avenue than renting your own cabinets, because arcades are fundamentally social and I don't know if there's wide interest in the games outside that context.
posted by byanyothername at 11:33 AM on July 18, 2013 [1 favorite]
Just FYI - they won't lug the game into a house "with more than 3 stairs." So that pretty much limits the delivery to the suburbs! Gee.
posted by fourstringheroes at 12:10 PM on July 18, 2013
posted by fourstringheroes at 12:10 PM on July 18, 2013
Well, hardware is cheap and powerful, and space is expensive, so why not have a bunch of general purpose machines which switch between multiple games. Oh, but also software is cheap while software development is expensive, so maybe these machines should just be able to play existing games. Well, why don't we just put a bunch of networked PCs in a room and rent them by the hour, maybe selling snacks and coffee on the side.
I don't think the "specialized hardware playing custom-written games on a pay-per-life payment schedule" model works anymore, but internet cafes or LAN gaming centers are potentially still viable, since a high-end PC is expensive enough that an average person isn't going to have one and might be willing to put up with the inconvenience of physically going somewhere to play games at high-resolution at ultra-high settings (or in virtual reality at ultra-high settings, which is similarly demanding).
posted by Pyry at 12:37 PM on July 18, 2013
I don't think the "specialized hardware playing custom-written games on a pay-per-life payment schedule" model works anymore, but internet cafes or LAN gaming centers are potentially still viable, since a high-end PC is expensive enough that an average person isn't going to have one and might be willing to put up with the inconvenience of physically going somewhere to play games at high-resolution at ultra-high settings (or in virtual reality at ultra-high settings, which is similarly demanding).
posted by Pyry at 12:37 PM on July 18, 2013
Not intending to offend, but for some reason I'm singularly unimpressed by this sentence. The whole thing feels like a handwavy "but that will never work," a big ol' appeal to inertia.
To be less hand-wavy about it, my point was that non-arcade gaming has a lot of very tangible benefits over arcade gaming in terms of what people actually want. The reason arcades existed in the first place was that the hardware to run them was prohibitively expensive for normal people to own, not because people inherently have a need to play games in a public place with people they don't know. You could make an argument that going to a public bath has social and community benefits over people just owning their own showers at home, but once the technology is there it's very hard to get people to stick to the less convenient and more expensive option. If you have a device that you can play games on for free wherever you want with whoever you want, there's not much of a reason to go somewhere to pay for a few minutes of gaming against someone you don't know. I love arcades and hope they can survive enough as a niche to keep going, but the time where they made a lot of sense economically as a primary means of making money for a business has passed.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:36 AM on July 20, 2013
To be less hand-wavy about it, my point was that non-arcade gaming has a lot of very tangible benefits over arcade gaming in terms of what people actually want. The reason arcades existed in the first place was that the hardware to run them was prohibitively expensive for normal people to own, not because people inherently have a need to play games in a public place with people they don't know. You could make an argument that going to a public bath has social and community benefits over people just owning their own showers at home, but once the technology is there it's very hard to get people to stick to the less convenient and more expensive option. If you have a device that you can play games on for free wherever you want with whoever you want, there's not much of a reason to go somewhere to pay for a few minutes of gaming against someone you don't know. I love arcades and hope they can survive enough as a niche to keep going, but the time where they made a lot of sense economically as a primary means of making money for a business has passed.
posted by burnmp3s at 8:36 AM on July 20, 2013
The real issue is that arcade games got less fun -- they became focused entirely around customized controllers that you couldn't play with at home -- while home games became more networked, *and* the arcade games also became a lot more expensive. Just the logistics of putting that much money into a machine became problematic.
Still, $35M, that's an industry ending.
posted by effugas at 5:00 PM on July 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
Still, $35M, that's an industry ending.
posted by effugas at 5:00 PM on July 20, 2013 [1 favorite]
The reason arcades existed in the first place was that the hardware to run them was prohibitively expensive for normal people to own, not because people inherently have a need to play games in a public place with people they don't know.
I am sorry, but I'm going to directly contradict you there. Arcades didn't begin with video arcade gaming. Before video games there was pinball, and alongside pinball there were, and still are, a plethora of game machines, including redemption machines, prize machines and carnival games. And there's also pool tables, bowling alleys and a host of other venues offering entertainment.
The argument made for video arcade games does not apply to those other types of games. Would everyone want a pinball machine at home? Would everyone who plays a pool table at a bar want a pool table at home?
Arcade video games are hurt in this because the software of a video game is greatly compressible; there are few software programs that can run now on an arcade cabinet that can't be converted to run on a smart phone. But this reasoning breaks down if you have arcade video games that intrinsically rely on a social setting. Most such games don't, but that doesn't mean they can't. That is why I suggest inventing arcade games that could only work in a social environment. That people haven't tried this is a failure of the marketplace.
As for playing with people you don't know, one of the great opportunities of public gaming is the opportunity to meet people, to use the game as an excuse to interact with others.
posted by JHarris at 7:24 PM on July 20, 2013
I am sorry, but I'm going to directly contradict you there. Arcades didn't begin with video arcade gaming. Before video games there was pinball, and alongside pinball there were, and still are, a plethora of game machines, including redemption machines, prize machines and carnival games. And there's also pool tables, bowling alleys and a host of other venues offering entertainment.
The argument made for video arcade games does not apply to those other types of games. Would everyone want a pinball machine at home? Would everyone who plays a pool table at a bar want a pool table at home?
Arcade video games are hurt in this because the software of a video game is greatly compressible; there are few software programs that can run now on an arcade cabinet that can't be converted to run on a smart phone. But this reasoning breaks down if you have arcade video games that intrinsically rely on a social setting. Most such games don't, but that doesn't mean they can't. That is why I suggest inventing arcade games that could only work in a social environment. That people haven't tried this is a failure of the marketplace.
As for playing with people you don't know, one of the great opportunities of public gaming is the opportunity to meet people, to use the game as an excuse to interact with others.
posted by JHarris at 7:24 PM on July 20, 2013
Before video games there was pinball, and alongside pinball there were, and still are, a plethora of game machines, including redemption machines, prize machines and carnival games. And there's also pool tables, bowling alleys and a host of other venues offering entertainment.
I did not mean to imply that video games were the first type of public gaming, obviously games have been played in public places for thousands of years. My point was that businesses like pool halls, pinball arcades, video game arcades, bowling alleys, movie theaters, etc. primarily existed or exist because the core experiences they provide are difficult or impossible to duplicate at home. Whereas an activity like playing Scrabble or Monopoly has never been primarily done in public for-profit businesses despite the popularity of those games, because those games have always been inexpensive enough to be bought and played at home. Other times it's not the game itself that is expensive but rather than logistics of player matching. So poker, for instance, was played in public and private settings for 100+ years, but the poker industry itself experienced a huge boom in popularity due to it being possible for people to play the game for money online from home at levels that were not feasible to provide in public places. With video games smart phones, almost every obstacle that makes it possible to make for a business to provide a significantly better video game experience and still make money is gone.
The argument made for video arcade games does not apply to those other types of games. Would everyone want a pinball machine at home? Would everyone who plays a pool table at a bar want a pool table at home?
If both of those types of games could be bought and maintained for less than $20 and easily played at home, then yes the vast majority of people who played those games would own a personal household pinball machine or pool table. Just like how pretty much anyone who plays chess regularly owns their own chess set rather than having to pay to rent one to play at a public place. That's not to say that it would be completely impossible for a pool hall to stay in business if home pool tables were ubiquitous, it would just greatly reduce the demand for public pay to play pool tables.
But this reasoning breaks down if you have arcade video games that intrinsically rely on a social setting. Most such games don't, but that doesn't mean they can't. That is why I suggest inventing arcade games that could only work in a social environment. That people haven't tried this is a failure of the marketplace.
Even if you could somehow make a video game that was significantly more fun to play in public with random people than online with random people or online with people you know or at home with people you know, you would still it to have a very broad appeal for it to be successful as a for-profit business in the way that video game arcades were in their heyday. Bar karaoke for instance, is inherently social and broadly popular. But in most places, karaoke is more of a minor draw for bars to boost their profits on off nights, rather than something that people want to pay for directly and can be the foundation of a major local business.
posted by burnmp3s at 10:00 AM on July 23, 2013
I did not mean to imply that video games were the first type of public gaming, obviously games have been played in public places for thousands of years. My point was that businesses like pool halls, pinball arcades, video game arcades, bowling alleys, movie theaters, etc. primarily existed or exist because the core experiences they provide are difficult or impossible to duplicate at home. Whereas an activity like playing Scrabble or Monopoly has never been primarily done in public for-profit businesses despite the popularity of those games, because those games have always been inexpensive enough to be bought and played at home. Other times it's not the game itself that is expensive but rather than logistics of player matching. So poker, for instance, was played in public and private settings for 100+ years, but the poker industry itself experienced a huge boom in popularity due to it being possible for people to play the game for money online from home at levels that were not feasible to provide in public places. With video games smart phones, almost every obstacle that makes it possible to make for a business to provide a significantly better video game experience and still make money is gone.
The argument made for video arcade games does not apply to those other types of games. Would everyone want a pinball machine at home? Would everyone who plays a pool table at a bar want a pool table at home?
If both of those types of games could be bought and maintained for less than $20 and easily played at home, then yes the vast majority of people who played those games would own a personal household pinball machine or pool table. Just like how pretty much anyone who plays chess regularly owns their own chess set rather than having to pay to rent one to play at a public place. That's not to say that it would be completely impossible for a pool hall to stay in business if home pool tables were ubiquitous, it would just greatly reduce the demand for public pay to play pool tables.
But this reasoning breaks down if you have arcade video games that intrinsically rely on a social setting. Most such games don't, but that doesn't mean they can't. That is why I suggest inventing arcade games that could only work in a social environment. That people haven't tried this is a failure of the marketplace.
Even if you could somehow make a video game that was significantly more fun to play in public with random people than online with random people or online with people you know or at home with people you know, you would still it to have a very broad appeal for it to be successful as a for-profit business in the way that video game arcades were in their heyday. Bar karaoke for instance, is inherently social and broadly popular. But in most places, karaoke is more of a minor draw for bars to boost their profits on off nights, rather than something that people want to pay for directly and can be the foundation of a major local business.
posted by burnmp3s at 10:00 AM on July 23, 2013
So poker, for instance, was played in public and private settings for 100+ years, but the poker industry itself experienced a huge boom in popularity due to it being possible for people to play the game for money online from home at levels that were not feasible to provide in public places.
And with it came an explosion of in-person poker tournaments, a dramatic rise in poker tables at casinos, even entire poker sections.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:18 AM on July 23, 2013
And with it came an explosion of in-person poker tournaments, a dramatic rise in poker tables at casinos, even entire poker sections.
posted by Slap*Happy at 10:18 AM on July 23, 2013
My point was that businesses like pool halls, pinball arcades, video game arcades, bowling alleys, movie theaters, etc. primarily existed or exist because the core experiences they provide are difficult or impossible to duplicate at home.
Wii Sports Bowling didn't harm the market for real bowling. Did people watching movies at home destroy the market for big-screen motion pictures?
It is true that sometimes, indeed frequently, people will prefer to do things at home that they could have done in public. But it's not all the time. There is still room to go out and do things. That's why barcades are becoming more popular.
Whereas an activity like playing Scrabble or Monopoly has never been primarily done in public for-profit businesses despite the popularity of those games, because those games have always been inexpensive enough to be bought and played at home.
Well, many of those board games suck, and only get played because a family figures it has to do something together. (Exception: Scrabble.) I notice that the board gaming room at Dragon*Con is packed to the gills with people at all hours despite taking up an entire floor of a hotel and there being a hundred other things to do at any moment.
you would still want it to have a very broad appeal for it to be successful as a for-profit business in the way that video game arcades were in their heyday.
As popular as video games were in the 80s is a very hard bar to reach. I'm not going that far.
Bar karaoke for instance, is inherently social and broadly popular. But in most places, karaoke is more of a minor draw for bars to boost their profits on off nights, rather than something that people want to pay for directly and can be the foundation of a major local business.
I note that this is a thing that scales differently in different cultures -- Karaoke is a lot bigger in Japan (of course) than here, and there people do indeed go out just for Karaoke.
This just indicates we're both right, to an extent, we're just searching for the place to put the dividing line, which varies according to different circumstances like culture, location, personal inclination, time, etc.
posted by JHarris at 12:10 PM on July 23, 2013
Wii Sports Bowling didn't harm the market for real bowling. Did people watching movies at home destroy the market for big-screen motion pictures?
It is true that sometimes, indeed frequently, people will prefer to do things at home that they could have done in public. But it's not all the time. There is still room to go out and do things. That's why barcades are becoming more popular.
Whereas an activity like playing Scrabble or Monopoly has never been primarily done in public for-profit businesses despite the popularity of those games, because those games have always been inexpensive enough to be bought and played at home.
Well, many of those board games suck, and only get played because a family figures it has to do something together. (Exception: Scrabble.) I notice that the board gaming room at Dragon*Con is packed to the gills with people at all hours despite taking up an entire floor of a hotel and there being a hundred other things to do at any moment.
you would still want it to have a very broad appeal for it to be successful as a for-profit business in the way that video game arcades were in their heyday.
As popular as video games were in the 80s is a very hard bar to reach. I'm not going that far.
Bar karaoke for instance, is inherently social and broadly popular. But in most places, karaoke is more of a minor draw for bars to boost their profits on off nights, rather than something that people want to pay for directly and can be the foundation of a major local business.
I note that this is a thing that scales differently in different cultures -- Karaoke is a lot bigger in Japan (of course) than here, and there people do indeed go out just for Karaoke.
This just indicates we're both right, to an extent, we're just searching for the place to put the dividing line, which varies according to different circumstances like culture, location, personal inclination, time, etc.
posted by JHarris at 12:10 PM on July 23, 2013
Wii Sports Bowling didn't harm the market for real bowling. Did people watching movies at home destroy the market for big-screen motion pictures?
Wii Sports Bowling and real bowling are different enough in how people use them that I don't think it's really a good either/or consumer choice where you would see the effect I'm talking about. The film industry is definitely concerned that home viewing would hurt their bottom line for theater viewing though, considering that they artificially push back the release dates for the home versions of their films until well after the majority of in-theater sales are in. If they didn't have concerns about home sales eating into theater sales, then they would release both at the same time to let the home versions benefit from the massive marketing campaigns that they run leading up to a new film release and get the maximum possible revenues during that period. If the latest Halo game or whatever was released in public Internet cafes months before it was available for home consoles, that would definitely be a boon for the Internet cafe industry. Whereas as it is today, the only people who play games in Internet cafes tend to be people who can't play them at home because they lack the hardware or Internet connection.
This just indicates we're both right, to an extent, we're just searching for the place to put the dividing line, which varies according to different circumstances like culture, location, personal inclination, time, etc.
Yeah I would say that we are mostly agreeing about the overall situation and just disagreeing about some of the causes and their influences. Arcade video games still exist as a niche even though the industry that popularized them has mostly moved on to home or mobile games, and there could always be a resurgence from this point. I think I just feel that the deck is more stacked against arcade games than you do.
posted by burnmp3s at 1:46 PM on July 23, 2013
Wii Sports Bowling and real bowling are different enough in how people use them that I don't think it's really a good either/or consumer choice where you would see the effect I'm talking about. The film industry is definitely concerned that home viewing would hurt their bottom line for theater viewing though, considering that they artificially push back the release dates for the home versions of their films until well after the majority of in-theater sales are in. If they didn't have concerns about home sales eating into theater sales, then they would release both at the same time to let the home versions benefit from the massive marketing campaigns that they run leading up to a new film release and get the maximum possible revenues during that period. If the latest Halo game or whatever was released in public Internet cafes months before it was available for home consoles, that would definitely be a boon for the Internet cafe industry. Whereas as it is today, the only people who play games in Internet cafes tend to be people who can't play them at home because they lack the hardware or Internet connection.
This just indicates we're both right, to an extent, we're just searching for the place to put the dividing line, which varies according to different circumstances like culture, location, personal inclination, time, etc.
Yeah I would say that we are mostly agreeing about the overall situation and just disagreeing about some of the causes and their influences. Arcade video games still exist as a niche even though the industry that popularized them has mostly moved on to home or mobile games, and there could always be a resurgence from this point. I think I just feel that the deck is more stacked against arcade games than you do.
posted by burnmp3s at 1:46 PM on July 23, 2013
On playing games in Internet cafes: people still have LAN parties, they aren't as common as they were before widespread Internet gaming. But there is still room for playing games locally.
On disagreeing that the deck is stacked against arcade games:
We might not even disagree on that. After all, I'm proposing a design for a hypothetical arcade social game. No one's made one of those before, at least that I know of, that's been successful. It's obviously a problem that needs a specific kind of solution.
I'm interested enough in my idea to have been playing around with it in my head. I'd love to try designing this some day, I'm nearly bursting with ideas for it.
posted by JHarris at 3:27 PM on July 23, 2013
On disagreeing that the deck is stacked against arcade games:
We might not even disagree on that. After all, I'm proposing a design for a hypothetical arcade social game. No one's made one of those before, at least that I know of, that's been successful. It's obviously a problem that needs a specific kind of solution.
I'm interested enough in my idea to have been playing around with it in my head. I'd love to try designing this some day, I'm nearly bursting with ideas for it.
posted by JHarris at 3:27 PM on July 23, 2013
ob1quixote: “I… hope nobody else in my area finds out about this for a few weeks.”So I actually did look into this, and by my back-of-the-envelope calculations, unless you already have a warehouse full of desirable machines in good repair, you should keep looking for your next business idea. According to this amusements vendor, you're looking at a rough average of $1,400 per upright cabinet. So, presuming you get 80% of the rental price, that's two years just to break even on the machine. Not including overhead, customer delivery, repairs, taxes, etc.
On to the next dream!
posted by ob1quixote at 4:39 AM on July 28, 2013
According to this amusements vendor, you're looking at a rough average of $1,400 per upright cabinet.
Those are way overpriced. A generic used cabinet with working monitor and a game board would generally be around $400 or less on eBay. Still probably not a viable idea for a business though unless you already own and maintain a lot of arcade cabinets. If you did rent out cabinets to hotels and bowling alleys and whatnot it could theoretically be a good way to tap into consumer demand though.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:53 AM on July 30, 2013
Those are way overpriced. A generic used cabinet with working monitor and a game board would generally be around $400 or less on eBay. Still probably not a viable idea for a business though unless you already own and maintain a lot of arcade cabinets. If you did rent out cabinets to hotels and bowling alleys and whatnot it could theoretically be a good way to tap into consumer demand though.
posted by burnmp3s at 9:53 AM on July 30, 2013
burnmp3s: “Those are way overpriced. A generic used cabinet with working monitor and a game board would generally be around $400 or less on eBay.”Yeah, those are prices for fully—and lovingly—restored cabinets.
posted by ob1quixote at 1:44 PM on July 30, 2013
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