Salad Engineering

July 29, 2013 7:18 AM

You've just purchased a meal at a restaurant that offers a salad bar, with the stipulation that you can only take items from it once. How do you get the most out of your one trip? Simple: build a salad tower.

Sadly, such beauty could not last forever. To quote Kotaku's Brian Ashcraft:

"As The Beijinger first reported in 2009, Pizza Hut actually announced it was removing salad bars from its restaurants as part of a menu revamp. It was believed that salad stacking was to blame. Ya think?"

posted by tocts (80 comments total)

Tragedy of the commons, salad bar edition.
posted by yoink at 7:21 AM on July 29, 2013 [19 favorites]

Ugh, what a waste of food. It's heartwarming to see that the Chinese are really taking to Western-style capitalist consumerism.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:24 AM on July 29, 2013 [3 favorites]

I guess part of the enjoyment comes from sticking it to the man, because I cannot imagine eating that much cucumber in one sitting. And I like cucumber.
posted by dubold at 7:25 AM on July 29, 2013 [15 favorites]

Very elegant, although I doubt they're all that practical. Still beats the hell out of a sloppy plate where your thousand island dressing gets on the coleslaw and macaroni salad that you grabbed some of because, hey, coleslaw and macaroni salad.
posted by graymouser at 7:28 AM on July 29, 2013

I can attest to the fact that students were doing almost exactly the same thing at the Pizza Hut in York a quarter of a century ago. We'd spend half an hour building a salad-based Chrysler Building, and then order the measliest pizza on the menu and some tap water to go with it.
posted by pipeski at 7:29 AM on July 29, 2013

I've somehow separated the cause of this (only one trip to the salad bar allowed) from the effect, and am now imagining insanely amazing Doozer-like feats of construction at the Olive Garden thanks to the infinite breadstick policy.
posted by Shepherd at 7:33 AM on July 29, 2013 [10 favorites]

Yeah, but could you imagine being in line behind one of these tower builders? I mean, folks at salad bars (and other all-you-can-eat arrangements) pretty much already act like they have one trip to get everything they want. And then there are the true seekers, the ones looking for the enchanted piece of lettuce.
posted by MrMoonPie at 7:40 AM on July 29, 2013 [10 favorites]

I guess part of the enjoyment comes from sticking it to the man

Except it's not really sticking it to the man, it's sticking it to your fellow consumers and yourself. Now they don't have an unlimited salad bar anymore, meaning less choice overall. Really, the salad is pretty much the only vaguely nutritious thing on the Pizza Hut menu, so the whole situation sucks from multiple standpoints.
posted by Strange Interlude at 7:46 AM on July 29, 2013 [8 favorites]

These people are monsters. Healthy, engineering monsters.
posted by clockbound at 7:47 AM on July 29, 2013 [4 favorites]

Or tragedy of the croutons
posted by Auden at 7:48 AM on July 29, 2013 [16 favorites]

Crouton petters!
posted by carmicha at 7:49 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

"Delicious" is not the word that springs to mind when I look at these salad constructions.
posted by The corpse in the library at 7:54 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

In college my fiends and I sorta did that with the local Mongolian BBQ place. They had a lunch special which was one trip through the line, rather than the all you can eat deal for dinner. For a lot of us, it was simply not putting the noodles on until last (even though it was one of the first things on the buffet line), and loading up on everything else first, so it was a heaping bowl, but nothing like these. Plus, when you cook it up the amount shrinks, so even our overflowing bowls still turned out to be about 3/4 full afterward. We did have one friend who had devised a method of using broccoli spears as a stockade to extend the bowl a few inches higher, but that was about the limit of our sneakiness.

They didn't like us too much. Now the fact that were college students, so we tipped poorly, arrived right before the place closed for the afternoon, and tended to linger for a while may have helped stoke the animosity.
posted by Badgermann at 7:58 AM on July 29, 2013

My wife does something similar at flattop.
posted by goethean at 7:58 AM on July 29, 2013

In college my fiends and I sorta did that

Yes, food-hoarding fiends.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:01 AM on July 29, 2013

Is management really that stupid?

The one-trip rule is what instigates the hoarding. Just making it all-you-can-eat would almost certainly leave more salad on the salad bar. I weep for the corporate mentality.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 8:03 AM on July 29, 2013 [13 favorites]

If it's only gonna be one trip, then don't let the customers make their own. Duh.
posted by Benny Andajetz at 8:05 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

This, more than anything I've seen previously, has convinced me my grandchildren will be speaking Mandarin. And hopefully building insane watermelon towers at whatever Chinese fast food chain that will dominate the strip malls of our future burned out cities.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 8:06 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

Never, ever give your customers an optimization problem.
posted by kiltedtaco at 8:10 AM on July 29, 2013 [67 favorites]

We did have one friend who had devised a method of using broccoli spears as a stockade to extend the bowl a few inches higher...

Pea pods work pretty well too.
posted by goethean at 8:13 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

I had an employee who had been a manager at a semi-mid-scale fast service restaurant. They serve "healthy" enough stuff that they get more customers than, say, Burger King who want water only. In a rare fit of corporate good sense, they actually decided (after several long meetings on the subject) that the very few customers who chiseled them out of soft drinks using water cups were not worth spending megabucks on hugely different cups with different graphics that screamed "LOOK AT ME! I GOT THE FREE WATER!"

Yes, the restaurant in question was NOT Pizza Hut, or any other brand owned by Pepsico, which seems to live in fear that their customers will get the better of them, and make stupid policies that motivate said customers to do just that.

And what's up with the ketchup packet rationing at McDonalds?
posted by randomkeystrike at 8:13 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

Metafilter: Never, ever give your customers an optimization problem.

/obligatory
posted by randomkeystrike at 8:14 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

Gahh is that ranch dressing touching pineapple in some of those pics?
posted by jason_steakums at 8:17 AM on July 29, 2013 [3 favorites]

In a rare fit of corporate good sense, they actually decided (after several long meetings on the subject) that the very few customers who chiseled them out of soft drinks using water cups were not worth spending megabucks on hugely different cups with different graphics that screamed "LOOK AT ME! I GOT THE FREE WATER!"

The places I've seen that do that just give you tiny clear cups -- unbranded -- for water. Which, as someone who can easily drink a litre of water at a meal, is a huge pain.
posted by jeather at 8:19 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

Not even hypothetical organisms that have evolved to survive solely on cucumber would ever want to eat that much cucumber.
posted by elizardbits at 8:19 AM on July 29, 2013 [7 favorites]

Starting next Monday an undisclosed number of fortune 500 companies will start using this as part of their recruiting process.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 8:20 AM on July 29, 2013 [3 favorites]

This is why we can't have nice things.
posted by ColdChef at 8:23 AM on July 29, 2013 [6 favorites]

And what's up with the ketchup packet rationing at McDonalds?

What's up with that is that while an individual ketchup packet only costs about a penny, when you aggregate it over the course of a day's customers it really starts to add up quickly if you give out more. And a lot of the profit margins are actually pretty slim, after paying for crew.
posted by kafziel at 8:24 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

And what's up with the ketchup packet rationing at McDonalds?

On the other hand, I can never get them to give me just one packet of salt. It's always a handful.
posted by ogooglebar at 8:28 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

And a lot of the profit margins are actually pretty slim, after paying for crew.

Sounds like they have a business model problem, not a customer problem.
posted by readyfreddy at 8:31 AM on July 29, 2013 [3 favorites]

"Wasting food" is a really weird accusation here, since you are only looking at a tiny part of the picture. Which is more wasteful of food:

1) Growing 1 acre of lettuce and only eating half of it in salads.

2) Growing 10 acres of lettuce, feeding it to a cow, then milking the cow, then turning the milk into cheese, then putting the cheese on pizzas, then eating 100% of the pizzas.
posted by DU at 8:32 AM on July 29, 2013 [6 favorites]

What's up with that is that while an individual ketchup packet only costs about a penny, when you aggregate it over the course of a day's customers it really starts to add up quickly if you give out more.

But then even if they gave out 50,000 of them in one day that would only add up to $500; it seems that if someone's McDonald's franchise location can make or break itself on $500 in one day then maybe they have bigger problems then ketchup packets?
posted by elizardbits at 8:33 AM on July 29, 2013 [2 favorites]

Gahh is that ranch dressing touching pineapple in some of those pics?

Ranch dressing, good! Pineapple, good! What's not to like?
posted by kmz at 8:35 AM on July 29, 2013 [2 favorites]

Other rules that would make sense:

1) Maximum weight
2) Salad must fit in box with lid closed
3) Ban abusers

Why people seem disposed to always believe management's claims, I'll never know. They just want to get rid of the salad bar. Towers have nothing to do with it, it's just a convenient scapegoat for a species that is hardwired to hate cheaters.
posted by DU at 8:38 AM on July 29, 2013 [6 favorites]

ColdChef: "This is why we can't have nice things."

We also would have accepted "Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants."
posted by boo_radley at 8:39 AM on July 29, 2013 [9 favorites]

Not even hypothetical organisms that have evolved to survive solely on cucumber would ever want to eat that much cucumber.

Per my explorations in Spore with the Cucumber People and in particularly Coco and her family, I can attest to the accuracy of the statement above. It will be the eternal shame of planet Cucumis that she could not support her children, poisoning them with the very Ambrosia flowing from her teats. Have you, good people of Metafilter, seen what Cucumberitis does to a wee gherkin that you have known since infancy? I have and i still awake having wept in my sleep, with the image of a distorted tiny green face accusingly asking "Why?" haunting me throughout the day.

.
posted by Foci for Analysis at 8:40 AM on July 29, 2013 [3 favorites]

Ok, it made me laugh and it looks pretty impressive. I have no Deep Thoughts on this. Where's the like button?
posted by Omnomnom at 8:46 AM on July 29, 2013 [2 favorites]

The Chinese use the same character to mean both pride and shame
posted by Flashman at 8:49 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

My grandpa did this many years ago at the Rax salad bar, although not to this extreme. I mean, not anywhere near to this extreme. He would extend the bowl with cucumbers (I later tried taco shells broken in half...not as good) and would layer it in such a way that he got his salad on top, hot stuff in the middle, and pudding on the bottom. He was just the tiniest bit famous among the staff for this habit, but as far as I know no one tried to emulate him.

In college my fiends and I sorta did that with the local Mongolian BBQ place. They had a lunch special which was one trip through the line, rather than the all you can eat deal for dinner.

You know, despite the all you can eat, I tried this at a Flat Top just because I was hungry and didn't want to wait in line multiple times. I discovered they only cook your food for a certain amount of time no matter how much of it there is. I discovered this by biting into my sausage.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 8:52 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

These are glorious.

I am telling myself that everyone who made these is sneaking the leftovers home to make an awesome cucumber salad.
posted by inertia at 8:56 AM on July 29, 2013

DU: ""Wasting food" is a really weird accusation here, since you are only looking at a tiny part of the picture. Which is more wasteful of food:

1) Growing 1 acre of lettuce and only eating half of it in salads.

2) Growing 10 acres of lettuce, feeding it to a cow, then milking the cow, then turning the milk into cheese, then putting the cheese on pizzas, then eating 100% of the pizzas."

Neither choice is optimal.

Dairy cows generally aren't fed lettuce, both because it's low in nutritional value and because there's a higher demand for it as a food for humans. Here in the US and Canada, cows are usually fed enriched grain, a better source of nutrients that can be grown in large quantities.

Your answer is a bit of a non-sequitur anyway. Many people and at least a few businesses re-purpose uneaten lettuce into other dishes, pet food or compost, transforming it from waste into something useful. Plus the amount of energy required to change a lettuce into cheese is massive, compared to just eating it.
posted by zarq at 8:57 AM on July 29, 2013 [4 favorites]

How to maximise your return on investment, by Warren's buffet.
posted by MuffinMan at 8:58 AM on July 29, 2013 [9 favorites]

Gahh is that ranch dressing touching pineapple in some of those pics?

Dude that sounds kind of awesome.

*heads out to get a hawaiian pizza with a side of ranch for lunch*

dontjudge
posted by Aizkolari at 8:59 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

ranch dressing touching pineapple in some of those pics

That's obscene.
posted by kiltedtaco at 9:03 AM on July 29, 2013 [5 favorites]

I like the idea of someone building their tower while having to wait for the salad bar attendant to refill the cucumbers fifteen times.
posted by orme at 9:04 AM on July 29, 2013 [6 favorites]

The other nice thing about enriched grain is it can be stored in bulk over long periods of time. Unlike lettuce.
posted by zarq at 9:05 AM on July 29, 2013

The more I think about this, the more it resembles our economic problems writ small. See, what these people are doing is normal, predictable human behavior. DU referred to them as cheaters in the eyes of management. But they're not really cheaters; they are pushing the rules as far as they can without actually breaking them.

Management is responding by withdrawing the offer. That, supposedly, is the market at work. And it does work, to that extent.

Businesses argue that they need the power, free of regulation, to make those kind of decisions - to let the market work. The problem is that businesses left to themselves will behave just like these people at the salad bar. It soon becomes just another "who watches the watchers" problem.

sorry, I think my depth gauge is broken today
posted by Benny Andajetz at 9:17 AM on July 29, 2013 [13 favorites]

I used to love Roy Rogers, because of the Fixins' Bar. I could smother my burgers in pickles instead of having to make due with 2-3 pickle slices. The pickles were also really finely sliced and extra sour, they were great.

Unfortunately, Half the time I went there was somebody ahead of me with a tupperware container taking all the fixins', leaving no fixins' for the rest of us.

AFAIK there are no Roy Rogers left in New York due to fixins' thieves. I am now forced to get my fast food pickles from Quiznos of all places. I try not to be a jerk, I order a sandwich, but I need my fast food pickles. I usually leave with 3-4 little condiment tubs full.
posted by Ad hominem at 9:17 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

Charge more. Allow return trips.

I also would be pissed if I got behind one of these guy and had to wait for my turn.

I think I would knock his shit over and shout "Jenga!"
posted by cjorgensen at 9:17 AM on July 29, 2013 [10 favorites]

"Delicious" is not the word that springs to mind when I look at these salad constructions. I think of Pizza Hut.

FTFY
posted by ShawnString at 9:32 AM on July 29, 2013 [4 favorites]

And what's up with the ketchup packet rationing at McDonalds?

I'm pretty sure it has something to do with junior high boys and stomping and the person who has to clean up the parking lot. I have experienced both sides of this scenario.
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 9:35 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

I fear that these folks will ruin the free peanuts at Five Guys. Meals there, even eat-in, always come in paper bags, and I have seen customers eat their meals then fill their empty bags with peanuts to take home.
posted by MrMoonPie at 9:35 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

Here in the US and Canada, cows are usually fed enriched grain, a better source of nutrients that can be grown in large quantities.

Only beef cattle when they're being fattened up at the end.

Milk cows are fed hay, which is a hell of a lot easier to grow than lettuce.
posted by GuyZero at 9:40 AM on July 29, 2013

graymouser: "a sloppy plate where your thousand island dressing gets on the coleslaw and macaroni salad that you grabbed some of because, hey, coleslaw and macaroni salad."

This is a metaphor describes my salad bar experience on a micro level and MY WHOLE LIFE on a macro level.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 9:42 AM on July 29, 2013 [4 favorites]

Yes, my point was definitely about lettuce in particular.

The question is that "wasting food" is about wasting energy. Meat/cheese uses WAAAY more energy than plants do, so you'd have to be wasting A LOT of salad bar to make up for even eating all of a normal quantity of meat.
posted by DU at 9:49 AM on July 29, 2013

I can report that if you order delivery from Five Guys they bring you an entire bag of peanuts.
posted by Ad hominem at 9:50 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

I can report that if you order fries from Five Guys they give you all the fries in the entire world. Why do they even have the cups if they just fill the entire bag with fries?
posted by amarynth at 9:57 AM on July 29, 2013 [15 favorites]

GuyZero: " Milk cows are fed hay, which is a hell of a lot easier to grow than lettuce."

OK, I stand corrected! Thanks! :)
posted by zarq at 10:00 AM on July 29, 2013

They do it to make the bag greasy. They way they do it is fill the cup, put it in the bag, then they have this measuring device they fill and dump in the bag. So it's not like they do it accidentally or out of carelessness. It is pretty obviously carefully engineered.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:00 AM on July 29, 2013

Re. the McDs ketchup thing. During a poor employment time I worked PT at McD's to make ends meet. During that time the restaurant introduced ketchup rationing. It was really just 'X' gets this many packets or dips unless asked for more. It wasn't so much food cost thing but that so many unused packets were thrown out because not everyone uses tons of ketchup. I would see tons left on trays and in the garbage. Knowing them they probably did some study to determine the average amount of ketchup a person uses.

That was many years ago and since then, at least in Canada they have bulk ketchup in dispensers which you serve yourself. I don't go there that often now but will occasionally get fries in the drive thru and I make sure I ask for extra ketchup.
posted by Jalliah at 10:05 AM on July 29, 2013

I don't like the new napkin dispensers that make you work to get napkins out. People stand there pulling out one at a time for a good 5 minutes. I'm all for the environment but just give me like 50 napkins McDonald's.

There is also a Japanese place near me that always asked me how many soy sauce packets I wanted. I would always say, "dunno, how about 20" and they would always say "oh no I can't give you 20" and we would negotiate down. I always ended up with 5. It added extra excitement to the transaction I feel. Instead of just giving me five I felt like I had somehow gotten extra soy sauce through my own negotiating skills.
posted by Ad hominem at 10:14 AM on July 29, 2013 [6 favorites]

Except it's not really sticking it to the man, it's sticking it to your fellow consumers and yourself. Now they don't have an unlimited salad bar anymore, meaning less choice overall. Really, the salad is pretty much the only vaguely nutritious thing on the Pizza Hut menu, so the whole situation sucks from multiple standpoints.

Oh no! If only there were other places to eat!
posted by Cannon Fodder at 10:15 AM on July 29, 2013

None of those people intend to eat their creations, do they? They just want to take pictures.

I could RTFA to find out more, but I just want to look at the pictures.
posted by fatehunter at 10:16 AM on July 29, 2013

The other nice thing about enriched grain is it can be stored in bulk over long periods of time. Unlike lettuce.

I think DU's plan will store the lettuce in the form of cow.*


* One of the least successful Wonder Twins combos.
posted by Celsius1414 at 10:28 AM on July 29, 2013 [3 favorites]

I think DU's plan will store the lettuce in the form of cow.

I guess that's what the Germans were trying to do when they came up with Fleischsalat and Wurstsalat?
posted by kiltedtaco at 10:33 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

These people have a future in poker chip tower building contests.
posted by Warren Terra at 10:34 AM on July 29, 2013

I guess part of the enjoyment comes from sticking it to the man, because I cannot imagine eating that much cucumber in one sitting. And I like cucumber.
posted by dubold at 9:25 AM on July 29

More like "stacking it to the man," amirite?
posted by elmer benson at 10:35 AM on July 29, 2013 [2 favorites]

This is why we can't have nice things Pizza Hut salad bars.
posted by ambrosen at 10:51 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

To add to the ketchup packet discussion: every time I go through the Whataburger drive thru, they ask me if I want ketchup for my fries. Every time, I say no. And every time, I open the bag to find 2-3 ketchups in there anyway.
posted by MexicanYenta at 10:51 AM on July 29, 2013 [1 favorite]

> But then even if they gave out 50,000 of them in one day that would only add up to $500; it seems that if someone's McDonald's franchise location can make or break itself on $500 in one day then maybe they have bigger problems then ketchup packets?

That's $183,000 a year. Hell of a margin to throw away.

5,000 packets thrown away per day, at $18,000, would have been enough to fund a part-timer's income for a year. Would you rather get a fistful of ketchup packets that go straight to the trash, or get your order served just that little bit faster because they could afford to have one more guy manning the counter?
posted by ardgedee at 10:54 AM on July 29, 2013

idk man i just want fries
posted by elizardbits at 10:57 AM on July 29, 2013 [3 favorites]

Metafilter: I cannot imagine eating that much cucumber in one sitting. And I like cucumber.
posted by blue_beetle at 11:03 AM on July 29, 2013

Crouton petters!

Or crouton wetters — the cukes and lettuce are going to soak the croutons and cause an uncontrolled implosion.
posted by Blazecock Pileon at 11:50 AM on July 29, 2013

Yeah, you have to do a bit of this at our Mongolian BBQ place too, but honestly there isn't enough stuff like cucumbers to actually create a lot of structural integrity, so you end up spending most of your time mashing stuff into the bowl to fit more in and then using any extra space around the edges to put eggs in, since eggs will sort of stay better than the pile of meat and veggies.

I vaguely recall my parents telling me they did something like this when they were young and poor and had a one-trip-only salad bar, but I think they were doing more of a "put the heavy stuff on the bottom" type approach than a "make something with actual structural integrity".

Also, some salad bar food is pretty cheap. It's possible that the only-go-once rule mostly is just there to get you not to make them wash a bunch of extra plates.
posted by NoraReed at 1:03 PM on July 29, 2013

The places I've seen that do that just give you tiny clear cups -- unbranded -- for water. Which, as someone who can easily drink a litre of water at a meal, is a huge pain.

Well, what the heck - it was Panera. Their water cups are not large, but I do find I can use them without an inordinate number of refills. So it wasn't like a communion cup...
posted by randomkeystrike at 1:32 PM on July 29, 2013

Why people seem disposed to always believe management's claims, I'll never know. They just want to get rid of the salad bar. Towers have nothing to do with it, it's just a convenient scapegoat for a species that is hardwired to hate cheaters.

Except that they didn't actually mention the tower thing when they got rid of the salad bar. Typically that's an important part of the scapegoating process.
posted by atrazine at 2:05 PM on July 29, 2013

McDonald's is apparently the opposite of Taco Bell. I ask for sauce and I only need say 2 packets, but they give me about 20.
posted by IndigoRain at 2:47 PM on July 29, 2013

what these people are doing is normal, predictable human behavior.

If it were normal, we wouldn't be talking about it. It is seriously irrational. Or maybe hyper-rational.

Out of balance, in any event. Lao Tzu would be rolling in his grave
posted by IndigoJones at 4:03 PM on July 29, 2013

I will put you in touch with friends that can optimize your visit to Boston Lobster Feast.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 6:50 PM on July 29, 2013

Speaking of McDonald's rationing: in Japan, you get one, and only one, packet of sauce when you ask for McNuggets. In the US, I would always get the hot mustard and the sweet and sour, and then double-dip the nuggets, but that's not possible here. You can't even buy a second packet of sauce. The only way they'll give you a second packet of sauce is if you order a whole 'nother order of nuggets.

Of course, now they've gotten rid of the sweet and sour sauce, so double-dipping isn't so appealing. For comparison's sake, here's the nugget sauce selection at McDonald's in America (according to mcdonalds.com):

• Chipotle Barbeque Sauce
• Creamy Ranch
• Hot Habanero Sauce
• Honey Mustard Sauce
• Hot Mustard Sauce
• Spicy Buffalo Sauce
• Sweet Chili Sauce
• Sweet 'N Sour Sauce
• Honey
• Tangy Barbeque Sauce

And here's the nugget sauce selection at McDonald's in Japan (according to mcdonalds.co.jp):

• Barbeque Sauce
• Mustard Sauce

Sorry, I just needed to get that off my chest.
posted by Bugbread at 12:58 AM on July 30, 2013