Mixed Marriages in China a Labour of Love
October 23, 2013 7:51 PM Subscribe
Mixed Marriages in China a Labour of Love
Within her small expat community the social isolation was almost immediate. She felt alienated by her girlfriends, who would openly express their distaste for Chinese men.
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By contrast, Jun is known as "the legend" amongst his peers as they generally regard having a Western wife as a "status symbol", he says.
Within her small expat community the social isolation was almost immediate. She felt alienated by her girlfriends, who would openly express their distaste for Chinese men.
...
By contrast, Jun is known as "the legend" amongst his peers as they generally regard having a Western wife as a "status symbol", he says.
I can't speak for China, but being a Western man married to a Japanese woman in Japan is relatively easy (especially if you make an effort to learn the language).
On the flip side, due to radically different gender roles, Western women who marry into Japanese families have a considerably more challenging time, so I have the greatest admiration and respect for women who do it.
Looking forward to reading this piece by Jocelyn Eickenburg.
posted by KokuRyu at 8:58 PM on October 23, 2013
On the flip side, due to radically different gender roles, Western women who marry into Japanese families have a considerably more challenging time, so I have the greatest admiration and respect for women who do it.
Looking forward to reading this piece by Jocelyn Eickenburg.
posted by KokuRyu at 8:58 PM on October 23, 2013
I'm a western man married to a Korean woman in Korea, but this is about China and is pretty poorly reported.
posted by Joseph Gurl at 10:07 PM on October 23, 2013
posted by Joseph Gurl at 10:07 PM on October 23, 2013
The Chinese dating dynamic is so very unique that it's difficult to compare it to anything Western, or, honestly, to other parts of Asia. I am a white woman; when I lived in China, it was very rare for me to be asked out on a traditional date by Chinese men. Culturally related gender roles and expectations are complicated things. I was, however, constantly receiving attention and being told how beautiful I was. It was a very strange dichotomy. Taxi drivers, men on the subway, and shopkeepers frequently asked if I would like to have sex. Once, while traveling overnight on a sleeper train, I awoke to find a man trying to climb into my upper level bunk bed. He was massaging my feet (foreplay!) and was halfway onto my bed in the semi-lit, crowded sleeper car. I was startled, kicked at him a bit, and told him firmly to get off of my bed. He did, and I went back to sleep.
Here's the thing about China though: there was only one time in three years that I truly felt threatened. In all other instances the men were non-aggressive and appeared to simply be acting on long-perpetuated stereotypes about loose Western women. Most of the encounters just became funny stories (except to my Chinese friends - they were generally mortified that someone would act in such a way).
It's impossible to talk about China as though it were a small, simple city. It's like writing an essay about New York City and calling it an article on America. I had the experiences I did because I spent time living in a part of the country where foreigners were a novelty. China is changing, though. I'm happy to read about Western women marrying Chinese men - it's a nice change of pace from the more accepted Western man/Chinese woman dynamic. The article never really explores the rationale behind her friends alienating her . . . this seems like an odd sort of hostility that isn't typical of most expat communities. A well-researched version of this article would take longer to write, but would certainly be a bit more fulfilling to read.
posted by WaspEnterprises at 10:47 PM on October 23, 2013 [11 favorites]
Here's the thing about China though: there was only one time in three years that I truly felt threatened. In all other instances the men were non-aggressive and appeared to simply be acting on long-perpetuated stereotypes about loose Western women. Most of the encounters just became funny stories (except to my Chinese friends - they were generally mortified that someone would act in such a way).
It's impossible to talk about China as though it were a small, simple city. It's like writing an essay about New York City and calling it an article on America. I had the experiences I did because I spent time living in a part of the country where foreigners were a novelty. China is changing, though. I'm happy to read about Western women marrying Chinese men - it's a nice change of pace from the more accepted Western man/Chinese woman dynamic. The article never really explores the rationale behind her friends alienating her . . . this seems like an odd sort of hostility that isn't typical of most expat communities. A well-researched version of this article would take longer to write, but would certainly be a bit more fulfilling to read.
posted by WaspEnterprises at 10:47 PM on October 23, 2013 [11 favorites]
A foreign woman with a Chinese man is a rare pairing.
I recall being in Tokyo about 20 years ago where I happened to meet some Australian ex-pats in a bar. We got to talking and the Australian girls complained about living in Japan. "Western men are happy to date Japanese women and so they pay no attention to us - which would be fine if we were attracted to Asian men." Which seemed true. The bar was full of Asian women with Western men, but the Australian girls were sitting by themselves.
I hadn't really thought about that before, but it suddenly dawned on me that I had died and gone to heaven.
posted by three blind mice at 1:15 AM on October 24, 2013 [4 favorites]
I recall being in Tokyo about 20 years ago where I happened to meet some Australian ex-pats in a bar. We got to talking and the Australian girls complained about living in Japan. "Western men are happy to date Japanese women and so they pay no attention to us - which would be fine if we were attracted to Asian men." Which seemed true. The bar was full of Asian women with Western men, but the Australian girls were sitting by themselves.
I hadn't really thought about that before, but it suddenly dawned on me that I had died and gone to heaven.
posted by three blind mice at 1:15 AM on October 24, 2013 [4 favorites]
Where there is no marriage and no giving in marriage? (Matthew 22:30)
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:44 AM on October 24, 2013
posted by Joe in Australia at 1:44 AM on October 24, 2013
I recall being in Tokyo about 20 years ago where I happened to meet some Australian ex-pats in a bar. We got to talking and the Australian girls complained about living in Japan. "Western men are happy to date Japanese women and so they pay no attention to us - which would be fine if we were attracted to Asian men." Which seemed true. The bar was full of Asian women with Western men, but the Australian girls were sitting by themselves.
I hadn't really thought about that before, but it suddenly dawned on me that I had died and gone to heaven.
A heaven full of casual racists?
Sorry, that's prob a bit snarky... but the article does point to that phenomena (if anecdotally, I suppose), of western women flat out refusing to even consider Asian men. I find it odd that that doesn't raise more eyebrows.
I'm currently living in Hong Kong, and I've lived in Japan previously. I'm married to a fellow westerner, but in both places it seems true that white guy / local women pairings are quite common, but not the reverse. There's certainly a stigma attached by some to western guys who seem to prefer to date local women, but for some reason there's no stigma attached to western girls who seem to refuse to date local men.
posted by modernnomad at 2:14 AM on October 24, 2013 [9 favorites]
I hadn't really thought about that before, but it suddenly dawned on me that I had died and gone to heaven.
A heaven full of casual racists?
Sorry, that's prob a bit snarky... but the article does point to that phenomena (if anecdotally, I suppose), of western women flat out refusing to even consider Asian men. I find it odd that that doesn't raise more eyebrows.
I'm currently living in Hong Kong, and I've lived in Japan previously. I'm married to a fellow westerner, but in both places it seems true that white guy / local women pairings are quite common, but not the reverse. There's certainly a stigma attached by some to western guys who seem to prefer to date local women, but for some reason there's no stigma attached to western girls who seem to refuse to date local men.
posted by modernnomad at 2:14 AM on October 24, 2013 [9 favorites]
no stigma attached to western girls who seem to refuse to date local men.
I cannot speak for China, but in Japan, the Japanese guys were not that interested in the foreign girls, either. I think an above commenter hit on it - besides the overwhelming dedication to work, etc., the men tend to still be in a more conservative mindset, looking for a wife rather than a partner, meaning that many of us foreign women were too independent, determined, and willful. Even the Japanese guys who had a large circle of international friends would inhale air between their teeth and respond with a chotto... (ehh... no) to the idea of bringing a foreign girl home to meet their family.
I would have happily dated the local guys but lo those were the singlest years of my adult life. *sniff* I was not alone: a lot of my female friends and especially the long-term residents were woefully single, even if they were fluent in the culture and the language.
All I can say about China is that one of my best relationships was with a grad student recently arrived from Shanghai. My sample size of 1 says it was pretty awesome and I would do it again.
(Above comment contains gross generalizations, acknowledged to be so, but true in my experience.)
posted by whatzit at 3:19 AM on October 24, 2013 [1 favorite]
I cannot speak for China, but in Japan, the Japanese guys were not that interested in the foreign girls, either. I think an above commenter hit on it - besides the overwhelming dedication to work, etc., the men tend to still be in a more conservative mindset, looking for a wife rather than a partner, meaning that many of us foreign women were too independent, determined, and willful. Even the Japanese guys who had a large circle of international friends would inhale air between their teeth and respond with a chotto... (ehh... no) to the idea of bringing a foreign girl home to meet their family.
I would have happily dated the local guys but lo those were the singlest years of my adult life. *sniff* I was not alone: a lot of my female friends and especially the long-term residents were woefully single, even if they were fluent in the culture and the language.
All I can say about China is that one of my best relationships was with a grad student recently arrived from Shanghai. My sample size of 1 says it was pretty awesome and I would do it again.
(Above comment contains gross generalizations, acknowledged to be so, but true in my experience.)
posted by whatzit at 3:19 AM on October 24, 2013 [1 favorite]
When as an expat you're living in a place with a very traditional, patriarchal culture, the reluctance to date local men is perfectly understandable, particularly if it's important to you that you be treated as an equal in a relationship.
posted by orrnyereg at 3:21 AM on October 24, 2013 [5 favorites]
posted by orrnyereg at 3:21 AM on October 24, 2013 [5 favorites]
Which isn't to suggest that it's impossible to find that kind of relationship--just very difficult.
posted by orrnyereg at 3:23 AM on October 24, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by orrnyereg at 3:23 AM on October 24, 2013 [1 favorite]
I've known two Chinese-dude-European-girl couples. Both of them seem quite happy with their marriage and kids and such. In both cases, the couples eventually chose to move to Singapore for a variety of reasons, and I think one of them chose to be a homemaker. Not as common as Chinese women marrying out, but it happens. Fair to say there's a bigger cultural jump for women; the gap will continue to exist, but perhaps there will be more people willing to make that jump.
As a person of Indian origin married to a woman of Chinese origin, I also feel constrained to point out that India flat out refuses to give permanent residency visas for spouses of Chinese origin (*not* just Chinese citizens, but anyone whose parents, grandparents or great-grandparents were citizens of China), even if they're happy to give this permanent residency visa to spouses who are of other races (but not South Asian). They're happy to register the said marriages, though.
posted by the cydonian at 3:53 AM on October 24, 2013 [2 favorites]
As a person of Indian origin married to a woman of Chinese origin, I also feel constrained to point out that India flat out refuses to give permanent residency visas for spouses of Chinese origin (*not* just Chinese citizens, but anyone whose parents, grandparents or great-grandparents were citizens of China), even if they're happy to give this permanent residency visa to spouses who are of other races (but not South Asian). They're happy to register the said marriages, though.
posted by the cydonian at 3:53 AM on October 24, 2013 [2 favorites]
My anecdota:
I'm a white Westerner who's currently in Korea, and I've found the above-mentioned dynamics generally true here, too. Amongst my crew of Seoul-based foreigners, there are often one or two Korean men and many Korean women out on on our big nights out. I hadn't initially noticed this, but, after noticing it, found that this ratio stayed true again and again. I've seen a Korean male-Western female pairing exactly twice, whereas almost all of the foreign dudes I know have had their dalliances with local ladies. I'm not sure where the lack of interest is, but I'm not seeing AM-WF couples with anywhere the frequency that I see AF-WM couples.
By contrast, Jun is known as "the legend" amongst his peers as they generally regard having a Western wife as a "status symbol", he says.
I'm working on my Korean these days, so I can't speak to this from actually hearing it, but I've tangentially heard this is referred to by Korean guys as, "riding the white horse" and that it's something of a cap feather. Hi-fives, and such.
posted by charlemangy at 4:07 AM on October 24, 2013
I'm a white Westerner who's currently in Korea, and I've found the above-mentioned dynamics generally true here, too. Amongst my crew of Seoul-based foreigners, there are often one or two Korean men and many Korean women out on on our big nights out. I hadn't initially noticed this, but, after noticing it, found that this ratio stayed true again and again. I've seen a Korean male-Western female pairing exactly twice, whereas almost all of the foreign dudes I know have had their dalliances with local ladies. I'm not sure where the lack of interest is, but I'm not seeing AM-WF couples with anywhere the frequency that I see AF-WM couples.
By contrast, Jun is known as "the legend" amongst his peers as they generally regard having a Western wife as a "status symbol", he says.
I'm working on my Korean these days, so I can't speak to this from actually hearing it, but I've tangentially heard this is referred to by Korean guys as, "riding the white horse" and that it's something of a cap feather. Hi-fives, and such.
posted by charlemangy at 4:07 AM on October 24, 2013
I'm a Chinese-Texan dude married to a white woman, though it's not quite the same dynamic as the article was talking about. In the U.S. too though, I think it's generally more common to see white male/Asian female pairings than the other way around.
posted by kmz at 6:20 AM on October 24, 2013 [1 favorite]
posted by kmz at 6:20 AM on October 24, 2013 [1 favorite]
The relationship counselor named "Aiching" cracked me up though.
posted by kmz at 6:22 AM on October 24, 2013
posted by kmz at 6:22 AM on October 24, 2013
I think the article misses a hugely important point which I have no actual data to back up: most of the foreigners in China are men.
There are foreign ladies in Shanghai and Beijing. Even in my little town, I saw a few over at the university. But most of the foreigners I've seen are men.
I was the only white girl in town for a few months when I lived in Shandong. (This made me a little bit creepy when I moved to Shanghai because I felt like I should friend all the foreign ladies super hard, but Shanghai is super cool, so you actually are supposed to pretend like you don't even see each other on the metro. I guess?)
The really skewed foreigner gender ratio is something I've talked about with other expats, but never landed on a clear reason. Maybe women feel less secure moving abroad (this would align with many of the posts on this thread). Maybe it's the creepy sexist beliefs about Asian women that lure men over (not true of most of the foreign men I have known). I don't know.
I do know that I don't see a lot of non-Asian women here in China, especially outside the really major cities. And how can you marry someone you never meet?
posted by MsDaniB at 7:35 AM on October 24, 2013
There are foreign ladies in Shanghai and Beijing. Even in my little town, I saw a few over at the university. But most of the foreigners I've seen are men.
I was the only white girl in town for a few months when I lived in Shandong. (This made me a little bit creepy when I moved to Shanghai because I felt like I should friend all the foreign ladies super hard, but Shanghai is super cool, so you actually are supposed to pretend like you don't even see each other on the metro. I guess?)
The really skewed foreigner gender ratio is something I've talked about with other expats, but never landed on a clear reason. Maybe women feel less secure moving abroad (this would align with many of the posts on this thread). Maybe it's the creepy sexist beliefs about Asian women that lure men over (not true of most of the foreign men I have known). I don't know.
I do know that I don't see a lot of non-Asian women here in China, especially outside the really major cities. And how can you marry someone you never meet?
posted by MsDaniB at 7:35 AM on October 24, 2013
I also wonder if, because many women expect men to make the first move, relationships are stymied right away if that move isn't clear.
I was warned by people and guide books when I moved to China that everyone would think I was a super promiscuous because I'm white, but my experience was pretty much the opposite of Wasp's above. People of all ages and genders told me I was pretty ("So white!"), but I don't know that I was ever actually hit on.
posted by MsDaniB at 7:46 AM on October 24, 2013
I was warned by people and guide books when I moved to China that everyone would think I was a super promiscuous because I'm white, but my experience was pretty much the opposite of Wasp's above. People of all ages and genders told me I was pretty ("So white!"), but I don't know that I was ever actually hit on.
posted by MsDaniB at 7:46 AM on October 24, 2013
When as an expat you're living in a place with a very traditional, patriarchal culture, the reluctance to date local men is perfectly understandable, particularly if it's important to you that you be treated as an equal in a relationship.
This might be a factor but I don't think it's the primary factor in western women's general disinterest in Asian men - for example, Turkey has a very traditional, patriarchal culture, but it's in fact very common for non-Turkish women to marry Turkish men, perhaps even more so than the opposite.
I think a lot of Asian men are interested in dating western women, but don't initiate because they are aware that many western women will flat out refuse to consider them. Speaking for myself, I would 100x prefer being rejected as an individual, than rejected because my ethnicity is ineligible. That, combined with poor foreign language skills and a generally more introverted and self-conscious society.
For what it's worth, I'm a Chinese-American guy married to a white woman and I think the dynamic is similar in the US as in Asia. Though on the streets of NYC I'm starting to see more couples like ourselves (Asian man / non-Asian woman) - it's still a rare sighting, but I always gleefully point it out to my wife, who generally doesn't notice that sort of thing as much as I do. I don't know, obviously I'd prefer for the playing field to be more "equal", and the media/popular culture probably plays a huge role in it, but people are going to be attracted to whatever they're attracted to, and that means some people get shafted. It's the kind of thing that takes decades for peoples' attitudes to change.
posted by pravit at 8:23 PM on October 24, 2013 [3 favorites]
This might be a factor but I don't think it's the primary factor in western women's general disinterest in Asian men - for example, Turkey has a very traditional, patriarchal culture, but it's in fact very common for non-Turkish women to marry Turkish men, perhaps even more so than the opposite.
I think a lot of Asian men are interested in dating western women, but don't initiate because they are aware that many western women will flat out refuse to consider them. Speaking for myself, I would 100x prefer being rejected as an individual, than rejected because my ethnicity is ineligible. That, combined with poor foreign language skills and a generally more introverted and self-conscious society.
For what it's worth, I'm a Chinese-American guy married to a white woman and I think the dynamic is similar in the US as in Asia. Though on the streets of NYC I'm starting to see more couples like ourselves (Asian man / non-Asian woman) - it's still a rare sighting, but I always gleefully point it out to my wife, who generally doesn't notice that sort of thing as much as I do. I don't know, obviously I'd prefer for the playing field to be more "equal", and the media/popular culture probably plays a huge role in it, but people are going to be attracted to whatever they're attracted to, and that means some people get shafted. It's the kind of thing that takes decades for peoples' attitudes to change.
posted by pravit at 8:23 PM on October 24, 2013 [3 favorites]
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Not much to say on the present state of international marriage, but I do wish the BBC would leave out the historical background in these sort of pieces if they're going to continue to do it in such a throwaway manner - for example, while they were certainly very few and far between can't believe that thing about no foreign/Chinese marriages in 1978 when you had people like James Veneris, and then confusing marriages with foreigners with marriages with other ethnicities, of which China of course has many and there was intermarriage prior to 1979.
posted by Abiezer at 8:21 PM on October 23, 2013 [10 favorites]