Pakistan & Terrorism: The Evidence?
January 9, 2002 6:11 AM Subscribe
Pakistan & Terrorism: The Evidence? Well, finally a detailed account of what has actually been going on to create this particular mess. Or is it merely a biased indian opinion?
Not trusting the source is fine, but the article does indeed give a fairly accurate account of what has happened so far.
I am surprised it didn't mention the Golden Temple hostage situation from back in the '80s.
posted by riffola at 7:35 AM on January 9, 2002
I am surprised it didn't mention the Golden Temple hostage situation from back in the '80s.
posted by riffola at 7:35 AM on January 9, 2002
The source (retd. indian bureaucrat) was my initial skepticism too, but I agree it is a fairly accurate account, and with so much evidence India seems to certainly have the right to go to war (conventional, not nuclear).
I am with insomnyuk in thinking that most major terrorism is state-sponsored, how can it not be.
posted by bittennails at 7:46 AM on January 9, 2002
I am with insomnyuk in thinking that most major terrorism is state-sponsored, how can it not be.
posted by bittennails at 7:46 AM on January 9, 2002
We are going after Somalia, we will go into Yemen (to a lesser degree), we won't go into Saudi Arabia, we're already there, but we're not about to threaten a major source of our addiction to oil. And why the Sudan?
posted by yonderboy at 8:04 AM on January 9, 2002
posted by yonderboy at 8:04 AM on January 9, 2002
I agree with the notion that most major terrorism is state sponsored.
This article goes in alot of detail and though the evidence is really only circumstantial (answering the question in FPP), I have little trouble believing that the ISI has not been involved in covert operations.
I do have trouble with the idea that the Indian government has not gone to the UN with the proof that it had. It has [possibly] shown proof to the US and demanded action. I would think one reason for the lack of action on part of US was that India had closer ties with Russia during the cold war.
Another interesting point is that the Article missed the hijack of Indian Airlines to Lahore, Pakistan in 1971 by RAW (indian intelligence agency). This hijacking was attributed to Kashmiris in order to give a terrorist dimension to, what at that time was a peaceful Kashmir National Movement. Armed uprising started in mid 80's in Kashmir.
Tajinder Pal Singh, a sikh, who hijacked an Indian Airline going to Lahore in 1981. He was caught and sentenced to jail in Pakistan. After spending 14 years in jail, which is life term in Pakistan, he fled to Canada on a fake passport. This BBC report shows that he was extradited to India by Canada.
And this BBC report shows that the alleged hijacker was released by the Indians after interrogation. The reason being that he had already been convicted and had seved his sentense in Pakistan. Thus proving that the Indian government was satisfied at whatever punishment Pakistan judicial system has givent to this man. The article fails to mention this too.
An Indian Airliner was [supposedly] hijacked soon after 9/11. Indian cabinet members and officials came on TV and stated that there are 2-3 hijackers and they have asked the pilot to take the plane to Lahore, Pakistan. While the pilots of the airliner had not countered any such problem, the ground control had told them that hijackers are in the cabin. As the world media rushed to report a hijacking, the whole drama was flopped when the airline landed and there was no hijacker on board. The media soon went back to reporting the smoldering leftovers of WTC. I think its another of RAW hijackings gone astray.
This Dawn report gives a timeline of the mock exercise and statements by government officials. And this BBC report says how there were reports that the plane is being taken to Pakistan.
The article also missed an opportunity to mention the Jain Commission Report. During the course of its investigation the Jain Commission received testimony on the official Indian arms and financial support to the various Sri Lankan Tamil armed groups in Tamil Nadu.
This report by FAS, an independant American group, goes into more details about RAW and also cites examples of terrorist attacks on Pakistan soil committed by RAW. Including bomb blasts, inciting anger amongst minorities, a link reference to RAW terrorist camps in Qadian, Pakistan, and the holding of International Siraiki Movement in Delhi.
RAW Report
Wether its ISI, or RAW There is so much ill feeling between these two countries, I fear the future or our generations. This isnt an ideal world, so we cant imagine that one country will stop and the other will have to. I do not forsee any long lasting peace amongst India and Pakistan in my lifetime. Its sad, because its part great culture, land and people.
posted by adnanbwp at 9:06 AM on January 9, 2002
This article goes in alot of detail and though the evidence is really only circumstantial (answering the question in FPP), I have little trouble believing that the ISI has not been involved in covert operations.
I do have trouble with the idea that the Indian government has not gone to the UN with the proof that it had. It has [possibly] shown proof to the US and demanded action. I would think one reason for the lack of action on part of US was that India had closer ties with Russia during the cold war.
Another interesting point is that the Article missed the hijack of Indian Airlines to Lahore, Pakistan in 1971 by RAW (indian intelligence agency). This hijacking was attributed to Kashmiris in order to give a terrorist dimension to, what at that time was a peaceful Kashmir National Movement. Armed uprising started in mid 80's in Kashmir.
Tajinder Pal Singh, a sikh, who hijacked an Indian Airline going to Lahore in 1981. He was caught and sentenced to jail in Pakistan. After spending 14 years in jail, which is life term in Pakistan, he fled to Canada on a fake passport. This BBC report shows that he was extradited to India by Canada.
And this BBC report shows that the alleged hijacker was released by the Indians after interrogation. The reason being that he had already been convicted and had seved his sentense in Pakistan. Thus proving that the Indian government was satisfied at whatever punishment Pakistan judicial system has givent to this man. The article fails to mention this too.
An Indian Airliner was [supposedly] hijacked soon after 9/11. Indian cabinet members and officials came on TV and stated that there are 2-3 hijackers and they have asked the pilot to take the plane to Lahore, Pakistan. While the pilots of the airliner had not countered any such problem, the ground control had told them that hijackers are in the cabin. As the world media rushed to report a hijacking, the whole drama was flopped when the airline landed and there was no hijacker on board. The media soon went back to reporting the smoldering leftovers of WTC. I think its another of RAW hijackings gone astray.
This Dawn report gives a timeline of the mock exercise and statements by government officials. And this BBC report says how there were reports that the plane is being taken to Pakistan.
The article also missed an opportunity to mention the Jain Commission Report. During the course of its investigation the Jain Commission received testimony on the official Indian arms and financial support to the various Sri Lankan Tamil armed groups in Tamil Nadu.
This report by FAS, an independant American group, goes into more details about RAW and also cites examples of terrorist attacks on Pakistan soil committed by RAW. Including bomb blasts, inciting anger amongst minorities, a link reference to RAW terrorist camps in Qadian, Pakistan, and the holding of International Siraiki Movement in Delhi.
RAW Report
Wether its ISI, or RAW There is so much ill feeling between these two countries, I fear the future or our generations. This isnt an ideal world, so we cant imagine that one country will stop and the other will have to. I do not forsee any long lasting peace amongst India and Pakistan in my lifetime. Its sad, because its part great culture, land and people.
posted by adnanbwp at 9:06 AM on January 9, 2002
adnanbwp: I do agree with your sentiments, they are great cultures and it is sad that one can forsee no long lasting peace between the two countries.
I guess we shall have to wait and watch what twists and turns the current face off takes. I am eagerly waiting on the speech that Musharaff is to make soon, and the response that will surely come after.
posted by bittennails at 9:25 AM on January 9, 2002
I guess we shall have to wait and watch what twists and turns the current face off takes. I am eagerly waiting on the speech that Musharaff is to make soon, and the response that will surely come after.
posted by bittennails at 9:25 AM on January 9, 2002
There will NEVER be any peace between India and Pakistan because not only is hating each other the national sport in both the countries, it is the common bonds which unites Indians of all ethnicities, stripes and background, and is the mother of all Pakistani obsession.
And this goes beyond just the religion aspect, and beyond the dispute over Kashmir, since India is home to the second-largest muslim population on this planet. In a biblical sense, it's like the Cain and Able story, since Pakistan was formed out of India, and this is a family fued of mega proportions. But I'm sure this type of analogy would upset people of both nationalties.
The best we can hope for that there never is a nuclear war. Beyond that, the hatred will never go.
posted by Rastafari at 9:59 AM on January 9, 2002
And this goes beyond just the religion aspect, and beyond the dispute over Kashmir, since India is home to the second-largest muslim population on this planet. In a biblical sense, it's like the Cain and Able story, since Pakistan was formed out of India, and this is a family fued of mega proportions. But I'm sure this type of analogy would upset people of both nationalties.
The best we can hope for that there never is a nuclear war. Beyond that, the hatred will never go.
posted by Rastafari at 9:59 AM on January 9, 2002
yonderboy: Khartoum, capital of Sudan, has been a hiding place for bin Laden in the past (I read an interview conducted by a western reporter while he was in the Sudan)
He spent the next five years in Sudan until US pressure prompted the Sudanese Government to expel him, whereupon Bin Laden returned to Afghanistan.
Found via the BBC. Sudan has played it safe lately, but they are no strangers to terrorism.
posted by insomnyuk at 10:51 AM on January 9, 2002
He spent the next five years in Sudan until US pressure prompted the Sudanese Government to expel him, whereupon Bin Laden returned to Afghanistan.
Found via the BBC. Sudan has played it safe lately, but they are no strangers to terrorism.
posted by insomnyuk at 10:51 AM on January 9, 2002
South Asia Terrorism Portal, a New Delhi based organization, has a list of non-governmental terrorist groups in India. Judging from the names of the groups, they appear to be ethnic separatist groups struggling for more autonomy. Given the diversity of the ethnic separatist groups, I'd guess that the 'democratic majority' of India are not extending enough rights to their minority brethren, be it Hindu or Muslims. While India controlled the external affairs, defense and communications since 1950 of the land locked country, the government supported the militants in Sikkim in the '70s that led to the kingdom losing its independence and joining India in 1975 as its 22nd state.
It maybe not 'terrorism' in its current meaning, but India's neighbors, big and small, have an Indian experience different from the non-aggression once preached by Gandhi. Sri Lanka has always doubted India's "friendship". It has long maintained that India funded, trained and Indians have fought along side the Tamil separatists in Sri Lanka. Some have claimed that India master-minded the 1988 coup deta in Maldives in a plot to keep the government in Male in New Delhi's debt by sending in troops to rescue them from the "Tamil" invaders. India has supported the Shanti Bahini, a Jumma (Chakma, Marma and Tripura) separatist group in Bangladesh. The government of Bangladesh signed a peace treaty with the Jumma groups in 1997.
While not 'colonialists' as the definition goes, India has arm twisted its neighbors into becoming India's economic dependencies. Nearly a third of Nepal's imports come from India, which equals 95+% of imports from Nepal's other neighbors. Almost all of Nepal's foreign trade requires a signoff from New Delhi. India forced Nepal to use more expensive Indian ports for imports and exports, effectively voiding a trade and transit agreement between Nepal and Bangladesh. India also trades and in practice regulates electricity supply in Nepal and Bhutan. While three major local brokerage firms stood trials for the 1996 stock market crash in Bangladesh, most have pointed fingers at India as being the mastermind for this economic crisis.
Sometimes I guess Kama Sutra is less about 'love' and more about the other four letter word.
It maybe not 'terrorism' in its current meaning, but India's neighbors, big and small, have an Indian experience different from the non-aggression once preached by Gandhi. Sri Lanka has always doubted India's "friendship". It has long maintained that India funded, trained and Indians have fought along side the Tamil separatists in Sri Lanka. Some have claimed that India master-minded the 1988 coup deta in Maldives in a plot to keep the government in Male in New Delhi's debt by sending in troops to rescue them from the "Tamil" invaders. India has supported the Shanti Bahini, a Jumma (Chakma, Marma and Tripura) separatist group in Bangladesh. The government of Bangladesh signed a peace treaty with the Jumma groups in 1997.
While not 'colonialists' as the definition goes, India has arm twisted its neighbors into becoming India's economic dependencies. Nearly a third of Nepal's imports come from India, which equals 95+% of imports from Nepal's other neighbors. Almost all of Nepal's foreign trade requires a signoff from New Delhi. India forced Nepal to use more expensive Indian ports for imports and exports, effectively voiding a trade and transit agreement between Nepal and Bangladesh. India also trades and in practice regulates electricity supply in Nepal and Bhutan. While three major local brokerage firms stood trials for the 1996 stock market crash in Bangladesh, most have pointed fingers at India as being the mastermind for this economic crisis.
Sometimes I guess Kama Sutra is less about 'love' and more about the other four letter word.
You see, war is not the answerposted by tamim at 11:02 AM on January 9, 2002
For only love can conquer hate
You know we've got to find a way
To bring some lovin' here today
Beyond that, the hatred will never go.
That's ridiculous. My father was born in an India that encompassed both of the countries that are now at war. I have no reason to believe that if I someday have a son he couldn't visit a reunited country joining the two again.
50 years of tension in the thousands of years of shared culture will be, I hope, just a momentary lapse of reason on the subcontinent.
posted by anildash at 2:19 PM on January 9, 2002
That's ridiculous. My father was born in an India that encompassed both of the countries that are now at war. I have no reason to believe that if I someday have a son he couldn't visit a reunited country joining the two again.
50 years of tension in the thousands of years of shared culture will be, I hope, just a momentary lapse of reason on the subcontinent.
posted by anildash at 2:19 PM on January 9, 2002
A reunited country ? we are talking about peace being a problem between two neighbor countries here. TWO countries. You hope too much brother Anil.
posted by adnanbwp at 2:40 PM on January 9, 2002
posted by adnanbwp at 2:40 PM on January 9, 2002
I just hope that someday India and Pakistan are at a point where I can go visit Mohenjodaro just as easily as I could go visit the Ajanta & Elora caves. It would be very cool to reach a point where the sub-continent settles the major differences and opens itself up a bit, allow for unrestricted travel, virtually free trade, etc, very much like the mainland countries in Europe.
posted by riffola at 3:53 PM on January 9, 2002
posted by riffola at 3:53 PM on January 9, 2002
Wow, tamim, how long did it take you to write that post? One hell of a way to work the Kama Sutra into this topic. Bravo!
posted by Rastafari at 4:03 PM on January 9, 2002
posted by Rastafari at 4:03 PM on January 9, 2002
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The most interesting point to me is that the terrorism is state-sponsored. I think all major terrorism is state-sponsored to some degree. Which again makes me wonder (for the sake of consistency, not because I think we should) why we aren't going after Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Somalia, and Sudan.
posted by insomnyuk at 7:27 AM on January 9, 2002