Atlas
March 20, 2014 8:06 PM Subscribe
Last week, a publication based in New York that is called “New York,” asked the question, “Is San Francisco New York?”
A publication based in San Francisco answered, quite resolutely, “No.”
A publication based in San Francisco answered, quite resolutely, “No.”
Depends. How many nude people ride the bus in New York?
posted by Metro Gnome at 8:38 PM on March 20, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Metro Gnome at 8:38 PM on March 20, 2014 [3 favorites]
Ugh.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:40 PM on March 20, 2014
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:40 PM on March 20, 2014
Is San Francisco New York? Who killed the pork chops? What price bananas? Are you my Angel?
posted by griphus at 8:40 PM on March 20, 2014 [18 favorites]
posted by griphus at 8:40 PM on March 20, 2014 [18 favorites]
I just had a slice of quiche, and afterwards I was all like, "Man, I can't believe I just ate six limes!"
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:42 PM on March 20, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:42 PM on March 20, 2014 [7 favorites]
Relax, Seattle; you really don't want to be compared to New York.
Signed,
Chicago
P.S. We're the ones doing the comparing, and we always somehow come out short.
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 8:43 PM on March 20, 2014 [5 favorites]
Signed,
Chicago
P.S. We're the ones doing the comparing, and we always somehow come out short.
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 8:43 PM on March 20, 2014 [5 favorites]
the person greeting newcomers at the door was Julia Allison, the notorious glam blogger whose smile had dotted the New York party scene just a few years earlier.
It would be difficult to imagine a clearer signifier of the past tense jumping of the carcharodon carcharias than this.
posted by meehawl at 8:48 PM on March 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
It would be difficult to imagine a clearer signifier of the past tense jumping of the carcharodon carcharias than this.
posted by meehawl at 8:48 PM on March 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
There's definitely a lot of NYC/SF back-and-forth. People are starting to smoke weed openly in NYC a bit more, like in SF... That map seems decently enough accurate.
SF needs to be developed, though. The love for Painted Ladies houses is stifling the place. I barely know what the front of my 5-floor walkup looks like, buildings in NYC are not generally for looking at from ground level like they are in SF. And I think my 5-floor building needs knocked down and 8-10 floors put in its place, but in SF there'd be like, 4 apartments on the lot.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 9:03 PM on March 20, 2014 [3 favorites]
SF needs to be developed, though. The love for Painted Ladies houses is stifling the place. I barely know what the front of my 5-floor walkup looks like, buildings in NYC are not generally for looking at from ground level like they are in SF. And I think my 5-floor building needs knocked down and 8-10 floors put in its place, but in SF there'd be like, 4 apartments on the lot.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 9:03 PM on March 20, 2014 [3 favorites]
Meanwhile, Seattle quietly sulks that no one has recently compared it to NYC.
The one time I went to Seattle I met some guys and we went to walk somewhere. We went to cross the street and the guys hand and say "Yo hold on," "What?" "You're jaywalking." So yeah, you're gonna have to work on that.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 9:06 PM on March 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
The one time I went to Seattle I met some guys and we went to walk somewhere. We went to cross the street and the guys hand and say "Yo hold on," "What?" "You're jaywalking." So yeah, you're gonna have to work on that.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 9:06 PM on March 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
For once, I want to see an article like, "Is Amarillo, Texas the new Gary, Indiana?"
posted by quincunx at 9:09 PM on March 20, 2014 [35 favorites]
posted by quincunx at 9:09 PM on March 20, 2014 [35 favorites]
If you are going to tell San Franciscans how much they should build up their city you need to know what those "Painted Ladies houses" are called.
The Painted Ladies are Victorians. (Yeah that's really a supercategory).
Edwardians my favorite San Francisco architecture, and tend to be a bit understated.
Queen Annes are kind of awesome in that oh my god way.
There's also lots of awesome Crafstmen, Marina Style, etc buildings. San Francisco's architecture is amazing and there's no city like it.
Oh people who have lived here for a few years and say shit like "Oakland the new Whatever" need to understand that there's a lot more to Oakland than the 2-3 neighborhoods that they've been in, and that Oakland is fucking awesome and has been fucking awesome for generations. And I say that as someone who's lived in Oakland and moved to San Francisco.
posted by aspo at 9:22 PM on March 20, 2014 [12 favorites]
The Painted Ladies are Victorians. (Yeah that's really a supercategory).
Edwardians my favorite San Francisco architecture, and tend to be a bit understated.
Queen Annes are kind of awesome in that oh my god way.
There's also lots of awesome Crafstmen, Marina Style, etc buildings. San Francisco's architecture is amazing and there's no city like it.
Oh people who have lived here for a few years and say shit like "Oakland the new Whatever" need to understand that there's a lot more to Oakland than the 2-3 neighborhoods that they've been in, and that Oakland is fucking awesome and has been fucking awesome for generations. And I say that as someone who's lived in Oakland and moved to San Francisco.
posted by aspo at 9:22 PM on March 20, 2014 [12 favorites]
Oh, lord, let's hope nothing is ever the 'new' Gary, Indiana. One is more than enough.
posted by Ghidorah at 9:23 PM on March 20, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by Ghidorah at 9:23 PM on March 20, 2014 [4 favorites]
And I almost forgot, anyone who labels Berkeley as New Haven is an idiot who shouldn't be allowed west of the Rockies.
posted by aspo at 9:23 PM on March 20, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by aspo at 9:23 PM on March 20, 2014 [3 favorites]
San Francisco isn't New York because Manhattan is 4x as dense (people per area). They also have an excellent subway system.
posted by cman at 9:25 PM on March 20, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by cman at 9:25 PM on March 20, 2014 [4 favorites]
Seattle and San Francisco and environs are responsible for the most recent economic success while New Yorkers came close to destroying our economy - so no.
I was just having this conversation with a couple of denizens of Manhattan not five days ago.
I still want to live in NYC some day.
posted by vapidave at 9:26 PM on March 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
I was just having this conversation with a couple of denizens of Manhattan not five days ago.
I still want to live in NYC some day.
posted by vapidave at 9:26 PM on March 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
I know what they're called, but sometimes I deploy metonym.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 9:40 PM on March 20, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 9:40 PM on March 20, 2014 [4 favorites]
Someone needs to map the Bay Area onto NYC. Because turnabout is fair play yeah i mad
posted by Standard Orange at 9:42 PM on March 20, 2014
posted by Standard Orange at 9:42 PM on March 20, 2014
I remember the first time I ever visited San Francisco as a grownup, after years of living in Manhattan. When I took out the phone book at the hotel (yes, I'm old), I thought it was a joke - how could such a major city have such a tiny population? I thought it was weird and charming that I could literally page through the phone book for like 15 minutes and pull out the names of the people I knew and was hoping to catch up with.
I miss phone books.
posted by Mchelly at 9:45 PM on March 20, 2014
I miss phone books.
posted by Mchelly at 9:45 PM on March 20, 2014
I just moved to San Francisco (from Berkeley) about 4 months ago. There are coyotes and parrots living on the hill in front of me. People occasionally say "Hello," and "Good morning." The temperature here has been in the 70s, for weeks, during this winter. How or why anyone would compare the 2 cities is just plain goofy.
posted by uraniumwilly at 9:47 PM on March 20, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by uraniumwilly at 9:47 PM on March 20, 2014 [7 favorites]
I just moved to San Francisco (from Berkeley)
Isn't Berkeley part of San Francisco?
posted by KokuRyu at 10:03 PM on March 20, 2014
Isn't Berkeley part of San Francisco?
posted by KokuRyu at 10:03 PM on March 20, 2014
San Francisco's architecture is amazing and there's no city like it.
It has Victorians, Edwardians, Queen Annes... and lots of curb cuts.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 10:18 PM on March 20, 2014 [8 favorites]
It has Victorians, Edwardians, Queen Annes... and lots of curb cuts.
posted by Pruitt-Igoe at 10:18 PM on March 20, 2014 [8 favorites]
All I know is that both of these places are destinations on my future burglary road trip
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:23 PM on March 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Ray Walston, Luck Dragon at 10:23 PM on March 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
Isn't Berkeley part of San Francisco?
Someday, maybe.
posted by uraniumwilly at 10:24 PM on March 20, 2014
Someday, maybe.
posted by uraniumwilly at 10:24 PM on March 20, 2014
curb cuts
Yep, I've had the subtle sense the sidewalks were fucked over there and last visit I saw that article and that has it on the nose.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 10:24 PM on March 20, 2014
Yep, I've had the subtle sense the sidewalks were fucked over there and last visit I saw that article and that has it on the nose.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 10:24 PM on March 20, 2014
Fold the lower 48 on the Mississippi main as the base of two touching palms. NYC and LA lock as thumbs. Boston meets SF as pointer fingers gesturing old and new Ways. Seattle a shiny ringed reflection to hard right handed labor worn Buffalo. Portlands lock pinkies in more than one way. Reno and Detroit make good middle fingers. Some kind of Macroscopic national Mudra holding a lotus blossom of our mind and something sometimes you might catch a glimpse of the galaxies in the lines of the magazine in your hands. If you go looking for patterns; be more ambitious than the 'is like' tropes of yor.
posted by astrobiophysican at 10:25 PM on March 20, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by astrobiophysican at 10:25 PM on March 20, 2014 [7 favorites]
It has Victorians, Edwardians, Queen Annes...
It strikes me as slightly weird to be marking the architecture according to the reigns of British monarchs, but I guess America also insists on using similarly old-timey British units like ounces and feet and gallons and stuff even though Britain doesn't, so I'll assume there is some method in the madness :)
posted by anonymisc at 10:35 PM on March 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
It strikes me as slightly weird to be marking the architecture according to the reigns of British monarchs, but I guess America also insists on using similarly old-timey British units like ounces and feet and gallons and stuff even though Britain doesn't, so I'll assume there is some method in the madness :)
posted by anonymisc at 10:35 PM on March 20, 2014 [1 favorite]
If you are going to tell San Franciscans how much they should build up their city you need to know what those "Painted Ladies houses" are called.
How about I refuse to know what they're called, but I tell San Franciscans how much they should build down their city?
Subterranean lairs and palaces for all!
posted by anonymisc at 10:43 PM on March 20, 2014
How about I refuse to know what they're called, but I tell San Franciscans how much they should build down their city?
Subterranean lairs and palaces for all!
posted by anonymisc at 10:43 PM on March 20, 2014
I find it funny when people ascribe importance or identify strongly with the city they live in while the rest of us just live in the cities we live in and seem to do alright with it.
posted by fishmasta at 11:15 PM on March 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by fishmasta at 11:15 PM on March 20, 2014 [2 favorites]
All cities built before cars are the best cities. SF has better weather.
posted by vapidave at 11:47 PM on March 20, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by vapidave at 11:47 PM on March 20, 2014 [5 favorites]
People occasionally say "Hello," and "Good morning."
::shudders::
I hope you survive this nightmare. Stay strong.
posted by Sangermaine at 11:52 PM on March 20, 2014 [8 favorites]
::shudders::
I hope you survive this nightmare. Stay strong.
posted by Sangermaine at 11:52 PM on March 20, 2014 [8 favorites]
All I know is that both of these places are destinations on my future burglary road trip
Wait for the Google Stop-n-Rob App live beta: all of the consumer information they've sifted out of gmail accounts coupled with maps and street view for a win/win partnership with entrepreneurs on the go!
posted by Pudhoho at 12:02 AM on March 21, 2014
Wait for the Google Stop-n-Rob App live beta: all of the consumer information they've sifted out of gmail accounts coupled with maps and street view for a win/win partnership with entrepreneurs on the go!
posted by Pudhoho at 12:02 AM on March 21, 2014
If you take away the raw physical beauty of San Francisco, it's really not that special. That said, San Francisco's raw physical beauty make it special. The light here is amazing - probably due to being surrounded by water. There is also a good variety of food/restaurants In San Francisco (but more food snobby than NY); pretty good social diversity (but not as diverse as NYC); drastically declining socioeconomic diversity (same as in Manhattan).
There is no way in hell (or any other place) that San Francisco compares in cultural invention or cultural variety to New York. San Franciscans like to think of themselves as the "new invention culture", but that's more self-serving than reality. The most important days for tech - here in the Bay Area - have come and gone. Of course, many will disagree, but it's true. The barriers to entry for tech are cash, access to talent, and an investor network. Those things are no longer exclusive to the Bay Area the way they were even ten years ago.
What I find interesting about San Francisco is that most of the people I know who compare San Francisco favorably to New York are from the East Coast, but rarely New Yorkers. It's a weird thing. It's like the fact that they grew up in Connecticut gives them the insight to make claims that they are not qualified to make.
The "art" scene in San Francisco pales in comparison to NYC. Certainly, cutting edge art is NYC makes San Francisco look like a kid's sandbox.
San Francisco's brand of liberalism is very strident, and not at all welcoming of difference; it's very self-prepossessing, and often pretentious.
All that said, it's a nice place to live if you were lucky to get in some years ago under rent control (and stayed put); inherited your digs from Mom and Pop; or, just cashed in from a tech buyout.
Housing is a real problem in San Francisco; it's small. One last thing: the area being built to accommodate new growth, South of Market St (SOMA) is just plain ugly. At night it feels lonely in an Andrew Wyeth kind of way. San Francisco also shuts down way too early.
Love the foghorns though, and walking up hills to see vistas is something special. The sunsets!!
NYC has its own special flair. If I had the cash I would spend time in both places.
posted by Vibrissae at 12:17 AM on March 21, 2014 [7 favorites]
There is no way in hell (or any other place) that San Francisco compares in cultural invention or cultural variety to New York. San Franciscans like to think of themselves as the "new invention culture", but that's more self-serving than reality. The most important days for tech - here in the Bay Area - have come and gone. Of course, many will disagree, but it's true. The barriers to entry for tech are cash, access to talent, and an investor network. Those things are no longer exclusive to the Bay Area the way they were even ten years ago.
What I find interesting about San Francisco is that most of the people I know who compare San Francisco favorably to New York are from the East Coast, but rarely New Yorkers. It's a weird thing. It's like the fact that they grew up in Connecticut gives them the insight to make claims that they are not qualified to make.
The "art" scene in San Francisco pales in comparison to NYC. Certainly, cutting edge art is NYC makes San Francisco look like a kid's sandbox.
San Francisco's brand of liberalism is very strident, and not at all welcoming of difference; it's very self-prepossessing, and often pretentious.
All that said, it's a nice place to live if you were lucky to get in some years ago under rent control (and stayed put); inherited your digs from Mom and Pop; or, just cashed in from a tech buyout.
Housing is a real problem in San Francisco; it's small. One last thing: the area being built to accommodate new growth, South of Market St (SOMA) is just plain ugly. At night it feels lonely in an Andrew Wyeth kind of way. San Francisco also shuts down way too early.
Love the foghorns though, and walking up hills to see vistas is something special. The sunsets!!
NYC has its own special flair. If I had the cash I would spend time in both places.
posted by Vibrissae at 12:17 AM on March 21, 2014 [7 favorites]
As someone who has lived in SF for the past decade or so, I've been trying to come up with a worthwhile comment that isn't bitter and full of bile for a good hour or so. I simply can't do it.
posted by treepour at 1:17 AM on March 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by treepour at 1:17 AM on March 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
I've only lived in SF [and Seattle] amongst the cities being discussed. I live in New Orleans now because I love the people here.
I'd be interested to hear a comparison from any who have lived in both SF and NYC, and Chicago too.
posted by vapidave at 1:24 AM on March 21, 2014
I'd be interested to hear a comparison from any who have lived in both SF and NYC, and Chicago too.
posted by vapidave at 1:24 AM on March 21, 2014
As someone who lives in NYC but spends a lot of time in San Francisco for work, it's always seemed to me like SF is what New York would be if it were smaller and shittier, but had way better weather.
posted by Itaxpica at 2:04 AM on March 21, 2014
posted by Itaxpica at 2:04 AM on March 21, 2014
Two vastly different cities. Love 'em both. New York is best.
I have spoken.
posted by Decani at 3:23 AM on March 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
I have spoken.
posted by Decani at 3:23 AM on March 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
Angrycat, those things are features, not bugs. Also you don't have to go all the way to SF to experience that behavior, it starts about fifty miles west of you.
* gives a friendly wave and says good morning (slowly) to Angrycat from the other side of PA*
posted by octothorpe at 3:56 AM on March 21, 2014 [5 favorites]
* gives a friendly wave and says good morning (slowly) to Angrycat from the other side of PA*
posted by octothorpe at 3:56 AM on March 21, 2014 [5 favorites]
Some kind of Macroscopic national Mudra holding a lotus blossom of our mind and something sometimes you might catch a glimpse of the galaxies in the lines of the magazine in your hands.
Please share your pharmaceuticals with the rest of the class.
posted by aught at 6:04 AM on March 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
Please share your pharmaceuticals with the rest of the class.
posted by aught at 6:04 AM on March 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
I've lived in both cities and briefly lived in both at once. What's the point of comparison, unless someone is actually considering relocating? They're completely different places, each lovable (and annoying) on their own terms. SF is tiny compared to NY. Saying one is "better" is just...silly. As is saying SF is turning into NY.
posted by three_red_balloons at 6:30 AM on March 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by three_red_balloons at 6:30 AM on March 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
the notorious glam blogger
Bloggers wear sweatpants and live in their mom's basement. Glam bloggers wear sweatpants and live in their mom's basement while coated in a fine layer of glitter and hairspray
In many ways, San Francisco is the nation’s new success theater. It’s the city where dreamers go to prove themselves—the place where just being able to afford a normal life serves as an indicator of pluck and ability.
So basically to the writer of the New York article, "New York" is defined as "wherever it is too expensive for normal people to live, and rich people can unironically pretend to be characters in the Great Gatsby."
Don't worry, NYMag writer. The New York you're looking for was inside you all along
posted by ook at 6:31 AM on March 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
Bloggers wear sweatpants and live in their mom's basement. Glam bloggers wear sweatpants and live in their mom's basement while coated in a fine layer of glitter and hairspray
In many ways, San Francisco is the nation’s new success theater. It’s the city where dreamers go to prove themselves—the place where just being able to afford a normal life serves as an indicator of pluck and ability.
So basically to the writer of the New York article, "New York" is defined as "wherever it is too expensive for normal people to live, and rich people can unironically pretend to be characters in the Great Gatsby."
Don't worry, NYMag writer. The New York you're looking for was inside you all along
posted by ook at 6:31 AM on March 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
angrycat: "2) A stranger saying "Good morning!" would freak me out."
As a lifelong denizen of "flyover country", that's depressing as hell.
posted by notsnot at 6:52 AM on March 21, 2014 [5 favorites]
As a lifelong denizen of "flyover country", that's depressing as hell.
posted by notsnot at 6:52 AM on March 21, 2014 [5 favorites]
Meanwhile, Seattle quietly sulks that no one has recently compared it to NYC.
Native San Franciscan, one time New Yorker, current and forever Seattleites here: don't worry about it.
Dear Rest-of-the-country: it really rains here all the time, everyone here is still obsessed with Kurt Cobain, and I am so, so sick of salmon, and yes, you can get a ticket for jay walking. You'd hate it here. Please stay away. no, we didn't just legalize pot, what are you talking about?
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 7:00 AM on March 21, 2014
Native San Franciscan, one time New Yorker, current and forever Seattleites here: don't worry about it.
Dear Rest-of-the-country: it really rains here all the time, everyone here is still obsessed with Kurt Cobain, and I am so, so sick of salmon, and yes, you can get a ticket for jay walking. You'd hate it here. Please stay away. no, we didn't just legalize pot, what are you talking about?
posted by Slarty Bartfast at 7:00 AM on March 21, 2014
If San Francisco were New York, something would be open 24 hours besides Denny's, the film scene would be getting better rather than worse, I'd be able to get a cab - and possibly that cab would not require me to use Google Maps to direct him, we'd have decent bagels and donuts and people wouldn't tell me I talk/walk too fast. The level of street trash, homelessness, financial struggle/hierarchy, private school jockeying and useless rich people with nonsensical "job" titles seems about right, though.
Then again, I live in Queens apparently, so what do I know?
posted by Gucky at 7:22 AM on March 21, 2014
Then again, I live in Queens apparently, so what do I know?
posted by Gucky at 7:22 AM on March 21, 2014
Disclaimer: Grew up in the Bay, love the Bay, love California (Go Niners!), but....
These comparisons are getting tedious. If you want to live in a City, not a town in the middle of some of the most beautiful country in the world, then you want to live in NYC.
NYC is the major economic, cultural, and industrial driver of the Untied States, and the world. The City is more diverse than anyplace else in the country, the people are actually nicer and more transparent than in SF, the public transportation puts every other US city to shame and you can get a decent meal after midnight on a TUESDAY.
Seattle and San Francisco and environs are responsible for the most recent economic success while New Yorkers came close to destroying our economy - so no.
Every single company "responsible for the most recent economic success" in the United states has an office in NYC. And FYI, companies like Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Goldman Sachs. All have HQs or offices in San Francisco.
That map seems decently enough accurate
This is just wrong. The poorest areas in San Francisco are surrounded by some of the greatest opulence and are RIGHT in the middle of the City (the tenderloin and 6th Street). Except for the Bayview and Hunter's Point, which actually get some of the best weather SF has to offer. Also, Brooklyn itself is 3x bigger than San Francisco.
Two cents. I'm over it. Apples, tangerines, whatnot.
posted by Roger_Mexico at 7:33 AM on March 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
These comparisons are getting tedious. If you want to live in a City, not a town in the middle of some of the most beautiful country in the world, then you want to live in NYC.
NYC is the major economic, cultural, and industrial driver of the Untied States, and the world. The City is more diverse than anyplace else in the country, the people are actually nicer and more transparent than in SF, the public transportation puts every other US city to shame and you can get a decent meal after midnight on a TUESDAY.
Seattle and San Francisco and environs are responsible for the most recent economic success while New Yorkers came close to destroying our economy - so no.
Every single company "responsible for the most recent economic success" in the United states has an office in NYC. And FYI, companies like Bank of America, Wells Fargo, Goldman Sachs. All have HQs or offices in San Francisco.
That map seems decently enough accurate
This is just wrong. The poorest areas in San Francisco are surrounded by some of the greatest opulence and are RIGHT in the middle of the City (the tenderloin and 6th Street). Except for the Bayview and Hunter's Point, which actually get some of the best weather SF has to offer. Also, Brooklyn itself is 3x bigger than San Francisco.
Two cents. I'm over it. Apples, tangerines, whatnot.
posted by Roger_Mexico at 7:33 AM on March 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
In the very first sentence of the essay at fault: "...San Francisco morphed into bizarro-world New York, when it went from being the city’s dorky, behoodied West Coast cousin..."
Dorky? YOU GO TO HELL, NYMAG. YOU GO TO HELL AND YOU DIE.
There is no way in hell (or any other place) that San Francisco compares in cultural invention or cultural variety to New York.
It kind of cracks me up (that or frustrates me to no end) that this conversation always seems to be about how SF measures up to NYC. Well, of course it doesn't if you're using New York's attributes as a yardstick. But that's not what the attraction is for many of us. Maybe you like being outdoors and hiking or cycling or being a 15-minute drive from redwood groves. (How many national parks are within 250 miles of downtown SF? 4. From Manhattan? 0.) In terms of quality of life, could New York ever measure up? Not a chance.
posted by psoas at 7:38 AM on March 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
Dorky? YOU GO TO HELL, NYMAG. YOU GO TO HELL AND YOU DIE.
There is no way in hell (or any other place) that San Francisco compares in cultural invention or cultural variety to New York.
It kind of cracks me up (that or frustrates me to no end) that this conversation always seems to be about how SF measures up to NYC. Well, of course it doesn't if you're using New York's attributes as a yardstick. But that's not what the attraction is for many of us. Maybe you like being outdoors and hiking or cycling or being a 15-minute drive from redwood groves. (How many national parks are within 250 miles of downtown SF? 4. From Manhattan? 0.) In terms of quality of life, could New York ever measure up? Not a chance.
posted by psoas at 7:38 AM on March 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
Next week in NY Mag: "Shocking news: we've discovered a whole country BETWEEN San Francisco and New York. It's not an empty meaningless void after all!"
posted by mmoncur at 7:43 AM on March 21, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by mmoncur at 7:43 AM on March 21, 2014 [4 favorites]
psoas, there are, however, some lovely state parks within that radius of NYC. I've walked alone through water-meadows to set up camp in ancient oak groves near NYC.
posted by 1adam12 at 7:47 AM on March 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by 1adam12 at 7:47 AM on March 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
How many national parks are within 250 miles of downtown SF? 4. From Manhattan? 0.
Yeah, but how many Chrysler Buildings do you have?
Exactly.
posted by Mchelly at 8:59 AM on March 21, 2014
Yeah, but how many Chrysler Buildings do you have?
Exactly.
posted by Mchelly at 8:59 AM on March 21, 2014
Exactly... what? SF has the wrong kind of monumental architecture?
posted by psoas at 9:01 AM on March 21, 2014
posted by psoas at 9:01 AM on March 21, 2014
I have hidden seven Chrysler Buildings in your city. Can you find them all... before it's too late?
posted by moonmilk at 9:15 AM on March 21, 2014 [10 favorites]
posted by moonmilk at 9:15 AM on March 21, 2014 [10 favorites]
Yeah, but how many Chrysler Buildings do you have?
When I was in Manhattan, people didn't fly around with jet packs. How can you appreciate all of your lovely skyscrapers - especially the Chrysler Building, unless you fly around with jet packs? (google the chrysler building and check the helicopter perspective photos.) So when viewed from the street level? Meh.
And how often do you see New Yorkers with their necks craning upwards to appreciate their glorious skyscrapers? They wouldn't be caught dead.
posted by uraniumwilly at 9:24 AM on March 21, 2014
When I was in Manhattan, people didn't fly around with jet packs. How can you appreciate all of your lovely skyscrapers - especially the Chrysler Building, unless you fly around with jet packs? (google the chrysler building and check the helicopter perspective photos.) So when viewed from the street level? Meh.
And how often do you see New Yorkers with their necks craning upwards to appreciate their glorious skyscrapers? They wouldn't be caught dead.
posted by uraniumwilly at 9:24 AM on March 21, 2014
How many national parks are within 250 miles of downtown SF? 4. From Manhattan? 0.
Ah, but if you expand that to include national recreational areas things even back out. Two such national recreational areas are even within New York City limits. There's even two spots with campsites in the city.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:30 AM on March 21, 2014
Ah, but if you expand that to include national recreational areas things even back out. Two such national recreational areas are even within New York City limits. There's even two spots with campsites in the city.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:30 AM on March 21, 2014
How many national parks are within 250 miles of downtown SF? 4. From Manhattan? 0.
This is a little disingenuous since a lot of parks in the Northeast are state park or forests instead of National Parks. Off the top of my head Catskills State Park, Adirondack State Park, Delaware Water Gap Recreation Area, The Green Mountain National Forest, Harriman State Park, Minnewaska State Park, Jones Beach / Robert Moses (Fire Island), and Cape Cod are all within 250 mi of Manhattan.
posted by aught at 9:33 AM on March 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
This is a little disingenuous since a lot of parks in the Northeast are state park or forests instead of National Parks. Off the top of my head Catskills State Park, Adirondack State Park, Delaware Water Gap Recreation Area, The Green Mountain National Forest, Harriman State Park, Minnewaska State Park, Jones Beach / Robert Moses (Fire Island), and Cape Cod are all within 250 mi of Manhattan.
posted by aught at 9:33 AM on March 21, 2014 [1 favorite]
Don't forget Cheesequake State Park, which I have visited just for the name. It was very nice, but my dog got ticks there.
posted by moonmilk at 9:36 AM on March 21, 2014
posted by moonmilk at 9:36 AM on March 21, 2014
This is a little disingenuous since a lot of parks in the Northeast are state park or forests instead of National Parks.
Fair; I was just using shorthand - my point (perhaps not well put) was that there appears to be a grander diversity of all-season outdoor-recreation areas more easily accessible from SF. Is there something analogous to the Marin Headlands within as short a distance from central NYC?
posted by psoas at 9:43 AM on March 21, 2014
Fair; I was just using shorthand - my point (perhaps not well put) was that there appears to be a grander diversity of all-season outdoor-recreation areas more easily accessible from SF. Is there something analogous to the Marin Headlands within as short a distance from central NYC?
posted by psoas at 9:43 AM on March 21, 2014
SF is a terrible place to live. Please don't come here. Please move away. It smells of urine, everyone is pretentious and self absorbed.
The Ohlone ruined everything.
The Spanish ruined everything.
The gold rush ruined everything.
The sailors ruined everything.
The beats ruined everything.
The hippies ruined everything.
The punks ruined everything.
The burners ruined everything.
The liberals ruined everything.
The dot-commers ruined everything.
The foodies ruined everything.
The 2nd wave dot-commers ruined everything.
I can barely afford to live here now. Go away.
posted by poe at 9:53 AM on March 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
The Ohlone ruined everything.
The Spanish ruined everything.
The gold rush ruined everything.
The sailors ruined everything.
The beats ruined everything.
The hippies ruined everything.
The punks ruined everything.
The burners ruined everything.
The liberals ruined everything.
The dot-commers ruined everything.
The foodies ruined everything.
The 2nd wave dot-commers ruined everything.
I can barely afford to live here now. Go away.
posted by poe at 9:53 AM on March 21, 2014 [3 favorites]
I'm sorry, but the mid 2000's foodies DID ruin everything. My god is there nothing more exasperating than a recent convert.
posted by aspo at 10:04 AM on March 21, 2014
posted by aspo at 10:04 AM on March 21, 2014
I grew up in Northern California a few hours from San Francisco. It was "the City" for all intents and purposes. There was never a pissing match between SF ans NYC. But for the west coast San Francisco was more comparable to NYC than say Los Angeles or Seattle. But it didn't/doesn't mean there is a contest.
San Francisco is one of my favorite places in the planet even though is isn't New York. Hell, one reason it is a favorite is because it isn't New York. It is San Francisco. And that's ok even though you can't drink until 4 and doesn't have as good of transit.
I also love New York. And New York isn't San Francisco either.
posted by birdherder at 10:05 AM on March 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
San Francisco is one of my favorite places in the planet even though is isn't New York. Hell, one reason it is a favorite is because it isn't New York. It is San Francisco. And that's ok even though you can't drink until 4 and doesn't have as good of transit.
I also love New York. And New York isn't San Francisco either.
posted by birdherder at 10:05 AM on March 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think New Yorkers are legitimately confused about San Francisco. When you look at the influence it has had in the US (and in some ways the world) it's way outside it's weight class. Influentially the major American cities are probably New York, LA and then SF. (And LA gets such a bad reputation that people who visit are actually surprised that it's not hell on earth.) So New Yorkers visit and expect it to be more like they city they love, and get very very confused. (I suspect the high cost of living here also accounts to some of that confusion.)
I know, it's not New York. It doesn't want to be New York. I'm not a big fan of the current streak of SF nativism going around, but if you've just moved here from New York please stop complaining about how SF really needs to become New York as quickly as possible. That city already exists.
posted by aspo at 10:11 AM on March 21, 2014
I know, it's not New York. It doesn't want to be New York. I'm not a big fan of the current streak of SF nativism going around, but if you've just moved here from New York please stop complaining about how SF really needs to become New York as quickly as possible. That city already exists.
posted by aspo at 10:11 AM on March 21, 2014
What a silly argument. New York can only logically be followed by Chicago.
posted by ReeMonster at 10:19 AM on March 21, 2014
posted by ReeMonster at 10:19 AM on March 21, 2014
Nope, and that's why Chicago has a huge complex and runs around doing silly things like having a nickname "second city."
posted by aspo at 10:28 AM on March 21, 2014
posted by aspo at 10:28 AM on March 21, 2014
Is there something analogous to the Marin Headlands within as short a distance from central NYC?
Yes.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:39 AM on March 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
Yes.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:39 AM on March 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
Is there something analogous to the Marin Headlands within as short a distance from central NYC?
Well, not that is so obvious from Manhattan and so close all you have to do is cross a bridge (except maybe the Palisades cliffs across the Hudson from far northern Manhattan, Bronx, and Yonkers). But the Hudson Valley north of NYC in general has some very beautiful / scenic / recreational stretches within an hour or so drive, including a spectacular stretch of the wide Hudson River flanked by forested mountains and tall cliffs from Bear Mountain north to Storm King Mountain. (Full disclaimer: I'm biased since I grew up in the Hudson Valley.)
posted by aught at 12:15 PM on March 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
Well, not that is so obvious from Manhattan and so close all you have to do is cross a bridge (except maybe the Palisades cliffs across the Hudson from far northern Manhattan, Bronx, and Yonkers). But the Hudson Valley north of NYC in general has some very beautiful / scenic / recreational stretches within an hour or so drive, including a spectacular stretch of the wide Hudson River flanked by forested mountains and tall cliffs from Bear Mountain north to Storm King Mountain. (Full disclaimer: I'm biased since I grew up in the Hudson Valley.)
posted by aught at 12:15 PM on March 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
LA gets such a bad reputation that people who visit are actually surprised that it's not hell on earth
I lived in nearby San Diego for twenty years and have lots of friends in LA, so I've spent quite a bit of time there over the years. If you need to drive anywhere, it really is hell on earth. And you need to drive anywhere you go in LA, so....
I've lived near NYC and am currently living in the East Bay near SF. Both cities are ridiculously expensive places to live and I'm baffled that anyone would want to live in either. The apartment I'm renting in a run down, no culture city in the East Bay is almost twice what I paid to live in a larger place a mile from the beach in La Jolla.
posted by Thoughtcrime at 2:26 PM on March 21, 2014
I lived in nearby San Diego for twenty years and have lots of friends in LA, so I've spent quite a bit of time there over the years. If you need to drive anywhere, it really is hell on earth. And you need to drive anywhere you go in LA, so....
I've lived near NYC and am currently living in the East Bay near SF. Both cities are ridiculously expensive places to live and I'm baffled that anyone would want to live in either. The apartment I'm renting in a run down, no culture city in the East Bay is almost twice what I paid to live in a larger place a mile from the beach in La Jolla.
posted by Thoughtcrime at 2:26 PM on March 21, 2014
Oh people who have lived here for a few years and say shit like "Oakland the new Whatever" need to understand that there's a lot more to Oakland than the 2-3 neighborhoods that they've been in, and that Oakland is fucking awesome and has been fucking awesome for generations.
Well yeah, and that applies to Brooklyn or wherever too - it's unfair on both sides of the comparison.
posted by atoxyl at 2:26 PM on March 21, 2014
Well yeah, and that applies to Brooklyn or wherever too - it's unfair on both sides of the comparison.
posted by atoxyl at 2:26 PM on March 21, 2014
When I was in Manhattan, people didn't fly around with jet packs. How can you appreciate all of your lovely skyscrapers - especially the Chrysler Building, unless you fly around with jet packs? (google the chrysler building and check the helicopter perspective photos.) So when viewed from the street level? Meh.
From your roof, which you may not be allowed to go on but you use anyway.
Out your bedroom window.
Random good views from ground level.
20th st. and East River, about where the LES starts bulging out, has a good view up the side of Manhattan.
The level of street trash, homelessness, financial struggle/hierarchy, private school jockeying and useless rich people with nonsensical "job" titles seems about right, though.
There were those guys got in trouble for not carefully couching their words about SF homeless, but overall they had something - NYC homeless pop. seems incredibly polite, non-aggressive, and non-threatening compared to SF homeless. It might just be that anyone who bothers anyone or causes a scene gets housed by Corrections, but I also think it's down to NYC requiring & learning a great deal of politeness and etiquette to function.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:12 PM on March 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
From your roof, which you may not be allowed to go on but you use anyway.
Out your bedroom window.
Random good views from ground level.
20th st. and East River, about where the LES starts bulging out, has a good view up the side of Manhattan.
The level of street trash, homelessness, financial struggle/hierarchy, private school jockeying and useless rich people with nonsensical "job" titles seems about right, though.
There were those guys got in trouble for not carefully couching their words about SF homeless, but overall they had something - NYC homeless pop. seems incredibly polite, non-aggressive, and non-threatening compared to SF homeless. It might just be that anyone who bothers anyone or causes a scene gets housed by Corrections, but I also think it's down to NYC requiring & learning a great deal of politeness and etiquette to function.
posted by save alive nothing that breatheth at 4:12 PM on March 21, 2014 [2 favorites]
runs around doing silly things like having a nickname "second city."
First used, as mild insult, by A.J. Liebling of the New Yorker. It's possible it would have been forgotten if it weren't for those damned improv geeks (and Lorne Michaels). But really, it's not used all that much otherwise. (The opening of the first of three articles, and the book into which they were collected, is tellingly a comparison of Chicago and New York as if one were transposed onto the other, a bit like this kerfuffle.)
Anyway, the thing I like about Chicago is that like New York it's a muscular, practical city, but it has a settled, Midwestern affability to it, perhaps even humility (which is why that nickname sticks). I did love me some New York for a while (even though I was ill-equipped to truly participate in it), but Chicago was much more my kind of place.
One is more than enough.
Thing was, Gary was a happening place once. But that was a long time ago.
posted by dhartung at 1:04 AM on March 22, 2014
First used, as mild insult, by A.J. Liebling of the New Yorker. It's possible it would have been forgotten if it weren't for those damned improv geeks (and Lorne Michaels). But really, it's not used all that much otherwise. (The opening of the first of three articles, and the book into which they were collected, is tellingly a comparison of Chicago and New York as if one were transposed onto the other, a bit like this kerfuffle.)
Anyway, the thing I like about Chicago is that like New York it's a muscular, practical city, but it has a settled, Midwestern affability to it, perhaps even humility (which is why that nickname sticks). I did love me some New York for a while (even though I was ill-equipped to truly participate in it), but Chicago was much more my kind of place.
One is more than enough.
Thing was, Gary was a happening place once. But that was a long time ago.
posted by dhartung at 1:04 AM on March 22, 2014
Thing was, Gary was a happening place once. But that was a long time ago.
Yeah. An example.
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 4:48 PM on March 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
Yeah. An example.
posted by JimInLoganSquare at 4:48 PM on March 22, 2014 [2 favorites]
Oh please, no. Let NYC stay in NYC. Four generations of my family born, lived, some died there. Politicians, bar owners, Wall Street crows, NYPD. Cranes over in the Port of NYNJ named after members of my family. Don't want to move back there. Nope. Nope. Please, everyone else. For the love of God, please just leave NYC there and let's not import all of that elsewhere.
posted by jeanmari at 7:50 PM on March 22, 2014
posted by jeanmari at 7:50 PM on March 22, 2014
(Not to say I don't like to visit...I enjoy visiting NYC. But if every city was NYC, I'd be so freaking annoyed.)
posted by jeanmari at 8:01 PM on March 22, 2014
posted by jeanmari at 8:01 PM on March 22, 2014
How Burrowing Owls Lead To Vomiting Anarchists (Or SF’s Housing Crisis Explained)
The Santa Clara Valley was some of the most valuable agricultural land in the entire world, but it was paved over to create today’s Silicon Valley. This was simply the result of bad planning and layers of leadership failure — nobody thinks farms literally needed to be destroyed to create the technology industry’s success.posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:47 AM on April 15, 2014
Today, the tech industry is apparently on track to destroy one of the world’s most valuable cultural treasures, San Francisco, by pushing out the diverse people who have helped create it. At least that’s the story you’ve read in hundreds of articles lately.
It doesn’t have to be this way. But everyone who lives in the Bay Area today needs to accept responsibility for making changes where they live so that everyone who wants to be here, can.
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posted by JimInLoganSquare at 8:36 PM on March 20, 2014 [14 favorites]