Koh Yao Noi, shot from a quadcopter
June 13, 2014 10:59 PM Subscribe
Koh Yao Noi Island [Vimeo], near Phuket, Thailand, shot using GoPro from a Phantom 2 Vision Quadcopter.
That was terrific. His post about how he put it all together is pretty interesting as well.
posted by oh pollo! at 2:41 AM on June 14, 2014
posted by oh pollo! at 2:41 AM on June 14, 2014
His short is beautiful, but so much of how he does post is just plain dumb, amateur stuff. He should stick to shooting and let someone who knows what they're doing finish for him.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:14 AM on June 14, 2014
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:14 AM on June 14, 2014
This 'copter and photography (coptertography?) trend is pretty amazing. I think they will--if they haven't already--make for a mini-revolution in filmmaking. Directors can say bye-bye to expensive, actual helicopters and cumbersome crane rigs.
posted by zardoz at 4:19 AM on June 14, 2014
posted by zardoz at 4:19 AM on June 14, 2014
God, that was just great.
I don't know what else to say.
posted by Fists O'Fury at 7:23 AM on June 14, 2014
I don't know what else to say.
posted by Fists O'Fury at 7:23 AM on June 14, 2014
"but so much of how he does post is just plain dumb, amateur stuff."
Joakim, could you elaborate? I do a little bit of editing/post stuff and nothing I saw in his write-up popped out as being "wrong." But it's not my full-time gig, so I'm always trying to learn more. Thanks!
posted by jonathanhughes at 11:17 AM on June 14, 2014
Joakim, could you elaborate? I do a little bit of editing/post stuff and nothing I saw in his write-up popped out as being "wrong." But it's not my full-time gig, so I'm always trying to learn more. Thanks!
posted by jonathanhughes at 11:17 AM on June 14, 2014
My past week was the worst of my life. This made me feel a bit better. Thank you.
posted by bonobothegreat at 12:48 PM on June 14, 2014
posted by bonobothegreat at 12:48 PM on June 14, 2014
Why are the shots so steady? Are quadcopters just that stable? Or does he use some sort of steadycam rig?
posted by signal at 6:37 PM on June 14, 2014
posted by signal at 6:37 PM on June 14, 2014
The editing software he uses (Adobe Premiere) has a feature called Warp Stabilizer that he used to smooth out some of the shots.
posted by jonathanhughes at 7:05 PM on June 14, 2014
posted by jonathanhughes at 7:05 PM on June 14, 2014
jonathanhughes: "
Joakim, could you elaborate? I do a little bit of editing/post stuff and nothing I saw in his write-up popped out as being "wrong." But it's not my full-time gig, so I'm always trying to learn more. Thanks!"
A couple of things:
He transcodes to ProRes LT for some reason, when he might as well transcode to ProRes HQ. There's not going to be a big difference in quality, but when you're transcoding from one compressed format to another, I'd prefer the second one to be as high quality as possible.
He uses some Premiere plug-in to color correct (as it happens, one he seems to be sponsored by), but he just uses it to match shots, and then he uses something called "FilmConvert" to add a preset film look to his material (he's apparently sponsored by that software too). This is basically the film equivalent of using Instagram filters to make your stuff look cool, and his material could look a lot better if it was just graded properly.
And finally, he doesn't seem to know the difference between an interframe and an intraframe codec. He says "I always upload to Vimeo in ProRes Proxy now to hold onto that grain. Even though Vimeo transcodes at 5 Mbps if I upload in 30 Mbps or higher like ProRes Proxy’s 50 Mbps the grain is held remarkably well online!"
Which is just bullshit. ProRes Proxy is a heavily compressed intraframe editing codec, which has a lot of visible artifacts (but it's extremely lightweight while still being suitable for editing, which is practical, for editing). 50Mbps ProRes Proxy is in fact far worse quality than, say, a h.264 file in 10Mbps or thereabouts, since h.264 is interframe. If he wanted really high quality, he'd make a 30-40Mbps h.264 file, which would probably fairly closely match the quality of 220Mbps ProRes HQ. By using ProRes Proxy for upload, he's uploading a file that's 5 times bigger than it needs to be, and has worse quality.
All of this put together makes me think he's a good cinematographer and perhaps editor who is dabbling in post without actually understanding what he's doing.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 1:12 AM on June 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
Joakim, could you elaborate? I do a little bit of editing/post stuff and nothing I saw in his write-up popped out as being "wrong." But it's not my full-time gig, so I'm always trying to learn more. Thanks!"
A couple of things:
He transcodes to ProRes LT for some reason, when he might as well transcode to ProRes HQ. There's not going to be a big difference in quality, but when you're transcoding from one compressed format to another, I'd prefer the second one to be as high quality as possible.
He uses some Premiere plug-in to color correct (as it happens, one he seems to be sponsored by), but he just uses it to match shots, and then he uses something called "FilmConvert" to add a preset film look to his material (he's apparently sponsored by that software too). This is basically the film equivalent of using Instagram filters to make your stuff look cool, and his material could look a lot better if it was just graded properly.
And finally, he doesn't seem to know the difference between an interframe and an intraframe codec. He says "I always upload to Vimeo in ProRes Proxy now to hold onto that grain. Even though Vimeo transcodes at 5 Mbps if I upload in 30 Mbps or higher like ProRes Proxy’s 50 Mbps the grain is held remarkably well online!"
Which is just bullshit. ProRes Proxy is a heavily compressed intraframe editing codec, which has a lot of visible artifacts (but it's extremely lightweight while still being suitable for editing, which is practical, for editing). 50Mbps ProRes Proxy is in fact far worse quality than, say, a h.264 file in 10Mbps or thereabouts, since h.264 is interframe. If he wanted really high quality, he'd make a 30-40Mbps h.264 file, which would probably fairly closely match the quality of 220Mbps ProRes HQ. By using ProRes Proxy for upload, he's uploading a file that's 5 times bigger than it needs to be, and has worse quality.
All of this put together makes me think he's a good cinematographer and perhaps editor who is dabbling in post without actually understanding what he's doing.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 1:12 AM on June 15, 2014 [3 favorites]
Thanks!
posted by jonathanhughes at 5:09 AM on June 15, 2014
posted by jonathanhughes at 5:09 AM on June 15, 2014
If you liked that and would like to see more of what we hobbyists do for fun, you may like the following videos:
High and Low from RCExplorer. David Windestal has been doing this for a while, and has some cute footage. This is a compilation of the stuff he did while in the US and working with Flitetest. For something prettier, I like his video of cancun.
Zen flight from Boris B. Boris is one of the smoothest multicopter pilots around and this flight is a great example of what multicopter pilots aspire to in terms of flight skills.
Speed runs at the park from BlackoutTheDrunk. Blackout was one of the first on the market with purpose-built mini multicopter designs, this particular one is very popular and perpetually out of stock. This video showcases mostly raw footage, unedited, and is one of the more exciting ones around in terms of close calls and sheer speed. Blackout's other mini design, the mini spider hex, does pretty amazing things too, and is what Boris B is flying in the Zen flight video.
The Team BlackSheep stuff deserves an obligatory mention in first-person view (or FPV) flight. However, Raphael Pirker (a.k.a. Trappy, the man behind Team BlackSheep) is a somewhat controversial figure due to his disregard for local laws in the name of doing whatever he wants to do (or as he says, "pushing the boundaries"). His youtube name is nastycop420. I personally think he's a childish prick, but his videos are pretty much amongst the best out there, and are well worth watching - cloud surfing, cliff surfing, mid-flight battery changes by a friend 12km away... all and more feature in TBS videos.
These things are really exploding in popularity in recent months, and I'm shocked at how difficult it suddenly is to get spare parts for my rigs because every manufacturer is up to their gills in orders. If you want to get into the hobby, the standard path is to learn how to fly on a small harmless quad like the Hubsan X4, and once you've mastered that, move on to a simple 450-sized frame. Only once you can handle all flight modes do you think about adding stuff on. Resources are available from RCGroups (look under "multicopter") and FPVLab (a more FPV focussed forum). Whatever you do, please don't buy a DJI phantom (as used in the OP post) if you don't know how to fly - it is a great tool, but marketed as easier to use than it actually is, and is thus full of pitfalls that the new pilot will not be used to handling.
posted by theony at 8:45 PM on June 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
High and Low from RCExplorer. David Windestal has been doing this for a while, and has some cute footage. This is a compilation of the stuff he did while in the US and working with Flitetest. For something prettier, I like his video of cancun.
Zen flight from Boris B. Boris is one of the smoothest multicopter pilots around and this flight is a great example of what multicopter pilots aspire to in terms of flight skills.
Speed runs at the park from BlackoutTheDrunk. Blackout was one of the first on the market with purpose-built mini multicopter designs, this particular one is very popular and perpetually out of stock. This video showcases mostly raw footage, unedited, and is one of the more exciting ones around in terms of close calls and sheer speed. Blackout's other mini design, the mini spider hex, does pretty amazing things too, and is what Boris B is flying in the Zen flight video.
The Team BlackSheep stuff deserves an obligatory mention in first-person view (or FPV) flight. However, Raphael Pirker (a.k.a. Trappy, the man behind Team BlackSheep) is a somewhat controversial figure due to his disregard for local laws in the name of doing whatever he wants to do (or as he says, "pushing the boundaries"). His youtube name is nastycop420. I personally think he's a childish prick, but his videos are pretty much amongst the best out there, and are well worth watching - cloud surfing, cliff surfing, mid-flight battery changes by a friend 12km away... all and more feature in TBS videos.
These things are really exploding in popularity in recent months, and I'm shocked at how difficult it suddenly is to get spare parts for my rigs because every manufacturer is up to their gills in orders. If you want to get into the hobby, the standard path is to learn how to fly on a small harmless quad like the Hubsan X4, and once you've mastered that, move on to a simple 450-sized frame. Only once you can handle all flight modes do you think about adding stuff on. Resources are available from RCGroups (look under "multicopter") and FPVLab (a more FPV focussed forum). Whatever you do, please don't buy a DJI phantom (as used in the OP post) if you don't know how to fly - it is a great tool, but marketed as easier to use than it actually is, and is thus full of pitfalls that the new pilot will not be used to handling.
posted by theony at 8:45 PM on June 15, 2014 [1 favorite]
Mr. Zeigler,
Whilst I appreciate you taking the time to dissect my methods please understand that if I do something in a certain way AND it works for me who are you to say it is wrong? I do many things in my life in my own way, does it mean they are the absolute best way of doing things? Absolutely not, but if it works for me then why is that an issue? I know I could improve and better in countless aspects of what i do in my life. The thing is I am always learning in everything I do as we never stop learning. I know that I could improve much of my post work, especially colouring. I also know I could improve in my household tidiness and cleanliness, my kitchen prowess could be better and my skill in bed, whilst I think I am pretty good I am sure if you ask any of me exes they will point out many schoolboy errors in technique that could be worked on...trust me I am trying! :)
I never tell people on my blog this is the ONLY way your should do things. The same in other aspects of my blog. In all my reviews I state I am expressing purely an opinion and never to base any purchase on one person's opinion, especially mine!
Let me address your criticisms:
I transcode to ProRes LT as it's easier for Premiere to work with than the native file, which it can deal with but having tried both I know which works faster. Why LT and not HQ? Hard drive space. There is no difference between HQ and LT from transcoded files from the GoPro. If you can prove otherwise then great but I still have the hard drive space issue.
I never once explained the differences interframe OR intraframe in that blog post. If I did please point me to that section. I simply said when I upload ProRes Proxy to Vimeo it holds the grain from FilmConvert. This is a fact. How do I know that? Because it does hold the grain! It's there! I promise you! If I don't then the compression makes the image blotchy.
Why not H264 at 30-40Mbps? Actually I do for YouTube as it does odd things to the start of videos if I upload in ProRes of any format. How do I know this? Because I have seen it every time I have tried. Maybe it's just me...
You are basically call me clueless frequently in your posts which I take issue with as A: It's uncalled for and B: Rude and C: incorrect.
Case it point. You call me up on the ProRes Proxy issue but actually get it wrong yourself, although this is just my opinion. You say ProRes Proxy (in HD is 50Mbps roughly) is 4 times bigger than 30-40Mbps. It's actually closer to 1/4to 1/5th according to my attempt at mathematics. I am no mathematician but I checked with my 8 year old niece who is and she confirmed this to me. She said "50 is more that 40 but only by 10. I thanked her, although she could be incorrect. I will need to seek further opinions on this calculation.
Now, I could upload the same file to Vimeo at 40Mbps and yes it would hold the grain. I upload in Proxy as it gives me nice high quality version to download if I ever need it. I am a Vimeo Pro member and I have the space. In face I frequently upload in LT. HQ? No...even Vimeo pro would complain.
So out of respect can you please refrain from calling me dumb or amateur. It's childish, rude and frankly incorrect.
There, that was $5 well spent to reply! :)
Kind regards,
Philip Bloom
Amateur Metafilter Contributor
posted by philipbloom at 9:38 AM on June 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
Whilst I appreciate you taking the time to dissect my methods please understand that if I do something in a certain way AND it works for me who are you to say it is wrong? I do many things in my life in my own way, does it mean they are the absolute best way of doing things? Absolutely not, but if it works for me then why is that an issue? I know I could improve and better in countless aspects of what i do in my life. The thing is I am always learning in everything I do as we never stop learning. I know that I could improve much of my post work, especially colouring. I also know I could improve in my household tidiness and cleanliness, my kitchen prowess could be better and my skill in bed, whilst I think I am pretty good I am sure if you ask any of me exes they will point out many schoolboy errors in technique that could be worked on...trust me I am trying! :)
I never tell people on my blog this is the ONLY way your should do things. The same in other aspects of my blog. In all my reviews I state I am expressing purely an opinion and never to base any purchase on one person's opinion, especially mine!
Let me address your criticisms:
I transcode to ProRes LT as it's easier for Premiere to work with than the native file, which it can deal with but having tried both I know which works faster. Why LT and not HQ? Hard drive space. There is no difference between HQ and LT from transcoded files from the GoPro. If you can prove otherwise then great but I still have the hard drive space issue.
I never once explained the differences interframe OR intraframe in that blog post. If I did please point me to that section. I simply said when I upload ProRes Proxy to Vimeo it holds the grain from FilmConvert. This is a fact. How do I know that? Because it does hold the grain! It's there! I promise you! If I don't then the compression makes the image blotchy.
Why not H264 at 30-40Mbps? Actually I do for YouTube as it does odd things to the start of videos if I upload in ProRes of any format. How do I know this? Because I have seen it every time I have tried. Maybe it's just me...
You are basically call me clueless frequently in your posts which I take issue with as A: It's uncalled for and B: Rude and C: incorrect.
Case it point. You call me up on the ProRes Proxy issue but actually get it wrong yourself, although this is just my opinion. You say ProRes Proxy (in HD is 50Mbps roughly) is 4 times bigger than 30-40Mbps. It's actually closer to 1/4to 1/5th according to my attempt at mathematics. I am no mathematician but I checked with my 8 year old niece who is and she confirmed this to me. She said "50 is more that 40 but only by 10. I thanked her, although she could be incorrect. I will need to seek further opinions on this calculation.
Now, I could upload the same file to Vimeo at 40Mbps and yes it would hold the grain. I upload in Proxy as it gives me nice high quality version to download if I ever need it. I am a Vimeo Pro member and I have the space. In face I frequently upload in LT. HQ? No...even Vimeo pro would complain.
So out of respect can you please refrain from calling me dumb or amateur. It's childish, rude and frankly incorrect.
There, that was $5 well spent to reply! :)
Kind regards,
Philip Bloom
Amateur Metafilter Contributor
posted by philipbloom at 9:38 AM on June 17, 2014 [2 favorites]
philipbloom: "Case it point. You call me up on the ProRes Proxy issue but actually get it wrong yourself, although this is just my opinion. You say ProRes Proxy (in HD is 50Mbps roughly) is 4 times bigger than 30-40Mbps. It's actually closer to 1/4to 1/5th according to my attempt at mathematics. I am no mathematician but I checked with my 8 year old niece who is and she confirmed this to me. She said "50 is more that 40 but only by 10. I thanked her, although she could be incorrect. I will need to seek further opinions on this calculation. "
I actually said "50Mbps ProRes Proxy is in fact far worse quality than, say, a h.264 file in 10Mbps or thereabouts, since h.264 is interframe.", and that's what I was using as a basis for the "4 times bigger" thing, since ProRes Proxy is about 45 Mbps/sec in 1080p30 (I didn't actually check what framerate your video is).
About the ProRes HQ thing, yes, that difference will be marginal, but when transcoding from one compressed format to another, I'd definitely go for the highest possible quality for the second format, because codecs don't quantize and compress in the same way. This stuff adds up when you roundtrip, recompress to master, etc. To get an idea of the differences between the codecs, try a simple exercise like putting two layers on top of each other, inverting the second (negative colors) and making it 50% transparent, then put a contrast filter on top of that and boost contrast. What you'll see are the differences.
So, I'm sorry if I was rude, but I do consider these less than optimal workflow choices. And I definitely think your video (which is very nicely shot) could really benefit from better color grading. Not that it looks bad per se, it could just look a lot better.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 7:48 PM on June 17, 2014
I actually said "50Mbps ProRes Proxy is in fact far worse quality than, say, a h.264 file in 10Mbps or thereabouts, since h.264 is interframe.", and that's what I was using as a basis for the "4 times bigger" thing, since ProRes Proxy is about 45 Mbps/sec in 1080p30 (I didn't actually check what framerate your video is).
About the ProRes HQ thing, yes, that difference will be marginal, but when transcoding from one compressed format to another, I'd definitely go for the highest possible quality for the second format, because codecs don't quantize and compress in the same way. This stuff adds up when you roundtrip, recompress to master, etc. To get an idea of the differences between the codecs, try a simple exercise like putting two layers on top of each other, inverting the second (negative colors) and making it 50% transparent, then put a contrast filter on top of that and boost contrast. What you'll see are the differences.
So, I'm sorry if I was rude, but I do consider these less than optimal workflow choices. And I definitely think your video (which is very nicely shot) could really benefit from better color grading. Not that it looks bad per se, it could just look a lot better.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 7:48 PM on June 17, 2014
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Also: I really wish I had the time and talent to learn how to operate a quadrocoptor!
posted by digitalprimate at 2:33 AM on June 14, 2014