Pretty Persuasion
October 26, 2014 2:21 PM Subscribe
Michael Stipe of R.E.M. writes about being queer: It’s been 20 years since I announced to the world that I was queer – and that I had found the strength and the voice to say that, and to move forward with my life as a completely out, publicly queer individual.
A nice, succinct statement. Good for him. I took room service to him back in 1995, by the way. Really small, quiet guy.
posted by jeff-o-matic at 2:47 PM on October 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by jeff-o-matic at 2:47 PM on October 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
This absolutely amazing to me, because I had no idea whatsoever that he was queer and out. I never really followed REM closely, obviously, but I had no clue.
Nice piece. He's always seemed a genuinely good guy to me.
posted by still bill at 3:00 PM on October 26, 2014
Nice piece. He's always seemed a genuinely good guy to me.
posted by still bill at 3:00 PM on October 26, 2014
I didn't know that he came out that long ago - the first mention I saw of it was in a Time article, probably around the release of Up, where there was a fairly casual mention of him and his (male) partner doing something. My friends and I were pretty big REM fans back then, and we paid a lot of attention to the music scene, but maybe we just didn't hear about it because we were in college or something.
Either way, good for him, and given how things were at the time, I'm glad his coming out wasn't some huge media spectacle. I think Ellen Degeneres came out around the same time and got a Time cover story, so it's pretty amazing that Michael Stipe, at his public consciousness peak, was able to fly a bit under the radar and just be accepted for who he was.
posted by LionIndex at 3:05 PM on October 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
Either way, good for him, and given how things were at the time, I'm glad his coming out wasn't some huge media spectacle. I think Ellen Degeneres came out around the same time and got a Time cover story, so it's pretty amazing that Michael Stipe, at his public consciousness peak, was able to fly a bit under the radar and just be accepted for who he was.
posted by LionIndex at 3:05 PM on October 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
As an R.E.M. fan since 1985, I hate to say it, but I find the albums not driven by Stipe's personal misery... miserable.
posted by clarknova at 3:39 PM on October 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by clarknova at 3:39 PM on October 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
When the video for "What's the Frequency, Kenneth?" came out with him shaved-headed and gaunt, I recall there being considerable whispering that he had AIDS; I wonder if that played any role.
posted by aaronetc at 3:49 PM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by aaronetc at 3:49 PM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
First saw them perform in 1984 in upstate NY; Stipe was the most beautiful man I had ever seen. He came on stage with his long curly hair hanging over his face, and when his necklace broke, he scattered the beads to the audience. I was 14 going on 15, and it was amazing.
"it is understanding difference, accepting your own truth, desire and identity, and lovely, lovely choice."
Well said. And thanks to him for all the music along the way.
posted by frumiousb at 4:13 PM on October 26, 2014 [8 favorites]
"it is understanding difference, accepting your own truth, desire and identity, and lovely, lovely choice."
Well said. And thanks to him for all the music along the way.
posted by frumiousb at 4:13 PM on October 26, 2014 [8 favorites]
I remember seeing a documentary about REM, where Stipe talked about his sexuality, and I remember how matter-of-fact and direct about he was, and how much I respected that.
posted by jonmc at 4:17 PM on October 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by jonmc at 4:17 PM on October 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
I also remember in a William Gibson novel, a female character describing a dude in a hip neighborhood as looking like "Michael Stipe on steroids." I worked in SoHo at the time and saw lots of guys who met that description.
posted by jonmc at 4:20 PM on October 26, 2014
posted by jonmc at 4:20 PM on October 26, 2014
Where did the phrase "speaking my truth" come from? I've noticed that it always gets used in these sorts of celebrity-coming-out stories.
posted by spilon at 4:49 PM on October 26, 2014
posted by spilon at 4:49 PM on October 26, 2014
Count me as another who had no idea Stipe was gay. Twenty years ago, really?
posted by zardoz at 5:01 PM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by zardoz at 5:01 PM on October 26, 2014 [1 favorite]
I feel so old. I'm pretty sure Michael Stipe was out, or at least talked about being queer, from "Life's Rich Pagent" on. I seem to remember him making that distinction between gay, bi, and queer, and putting himself firmly under the latter. I just think most of America didn't give a shit about "college radio" music other than the usual suspects, college kids into indie music. Ellen Degeneres was something else, and several years later.
Then again, I feel so old that I saw them in a 200 seat room off campus, because that's what happened before Warner Brothers and the internet. They turned up in a van. Stipe wore his hair long, and hid from the audience. This ended after Murmer/Reckoning and they became unlikely rock stars.
I always have had the utmost respect for all of those guys, even when I hadn't listened in years. They've chosen well.
posted by C.A.S. at 5:35 PM on October 26, 2014 [7 favorites]
Then again, I feel so old that I saw them in a 200 seat room off campus, because that's what happened before Warner Brothers and the internet. They turned up in a van. Stipe wore his hair long, and hid from the audience. This ended after Murmer/Reckoning and they became unlikely rock stars.
I always have had the utmost respect for all of those guys, even when I hadn't listened in years. They've chosen well.
posted by C.A.S. at 5:35 PM on October 26, 2014 [7 favorites]
Those of you saying you didn't know, and don't care -- maybe try thinking about what it meant to other queer people 20 years ago to have public figures come out publicly. It mattered, and still matters, and you're privileged if you can't see why.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 5:44 PM on October 26, 2014 [20 favorites]
posted by sevenyearlurk at 5:44 PM on October 26, 2014 [20 favorites]
My takeaway from this, as a longtime REM fan, is "OMG, 1994 was 20 years ago?!"
posted by Ruki at 5:49 PM on October 26, 2014 [15 favorites]
posted by Ruki at 5:49 PM on October 26, 2014 [15 favorites]
his struggling with the labels and the boxes people tried to shove him into, and his eventual really coming to terms with himself was very important to me, a young queer girl from arkansas. i'm glad he has found peace.
posted by nadawi at 5:51 PM on October 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 5:51 PM on October 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
I've liked REM since their days on college radio. I remember when Stipe came out in 1994. And I remember the collective yawn/shrug from everyone around me, a lot of deadpan "Gee, who'a thunk it?" followed by eye-rolling , as well as a handful of people who said "Wait, you mean he wasn't already out?"
I think that's why there's a certain amount of "I had no idea" in this thread. I don't remember a big splash in the media about it (and it's not likely I would've missed it, given celebrity-watching has been a hobby of mine since I was a kid) and being a trifle surprised that there wasn't a a bigger to-do. On the other hand, given the "Whaddya mean he was in the closet?" responses I heard, I wonder if Stipe was really as as subtle about his queerness back then as he thought he was.
Regardless, Stipe coming out helped folks, and it certainly gave him peace. Good for him!
posted by magstheaxe at 6:52 PM on October 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
I think that's why there's a certain amount of "I had no idea" in this thread. I don't remember a big splash in the media about it (and it's not likely I would've missed it, given celebrity-watching has been a hobby of mine since I was a kid) and being a trifle surprised that there wasn't a a bigger to-do. On the other hand, given the "Whaddya mean he was in the closet?" responses I heard, I wonder if Stipe was really as as subtle about his queerness back then as he thought he was.
Regardless, Stipe coming out helped folks, and it certainly gave him peace. Good for him!
posted by magstheaxe at 6:52 PM on October 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
There's a wonderfully irreverant and very casual interview with him in the Butt Book where he talks at length about coming out and what it means to use queer vs gay as a label/identity. He comes across as a very down-to-earth, funny, and authentic guy.
(BTW, can't recommend the Butt Book highly enough).
posted by treepour at 7:03 PM on October 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
(BTW, can't recommend the Butt Book highly enough).
posted by treepour at 7:03 PM on October 26, 2014 [3 favorites]
I have never met this person. So I don't know why his sexual anything should be a matter of my concern.
It's not about you.
It's about him and refusing to hide who he is.
Secondarily, it's about being a role model--on purpose or not--for all the queer kids out there who are struggling with their identity and how society reacts to it.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:13 PM on October 26, 2014 [8 favorites]
It's not about you.
It's about him and refusing to hide who he is.
Secondarily, it's about being a role model--on purpose or not--for all the queer kids out there who are struggling with their identity and how society reacts to it.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:13 PM on October 26, 2014 [8 favorites]
Those of you saying you didn't know, and don't care -- maybe try thinking about what it meant to other queer people 20 years ago to have public figures come out publicly. It mattered, and still matters, and you're privileged if you can't see why.
QFT. It was a very different act for someone to come out in public in 1994 from the act that it is now. It was difficult, it was possibly dangerous, and it was often at considerable cost, emotionally, financially, and otherwise. Stipe said in another interview recently something to the effect that the Monster album was when he knew there was a dividing line -- that many, if not most of the fans who had hung on since the beginning would fall off or drift away. I wonder now, reading this statement from him, whether the recording of that album was, in a way, an underlining of the difference between the out Michael Stipe and the "quiet, difficult, enigmatic, paralysingly shy artist" of the prior albums. I never thought of him particularly as "enigmatic" -- at least not after REM released the gloriously aggressive Lifes Rich Pageant -- but I have a feeling that others continued to see him that way no matter how clear REM's lyrics and sound became.
I have never met this person. So I don't know why his sexual anything should be a matter of my concern.
This comment, wow. But alas, an all-too-common sentiment -- and one that seems to increase in loudness and insistence as more and more people come out. It's as though another person's statement of identity is a threat, thus the elaborate pretense at concern-trolling that says, in essence, "I'm indifferent, but -- still -- how dare you shove it in my face?"
posted by blucevalo at 7:26 PM on October 26, 2014 [9 favorites]
QFT. It was a very different act for someone to come out in public in 1994 from the act that it is now. It was difficult, it was possibly dangerous, and it was often at considerable cost, emotionally, financially, and otherwise. Stipe said in another interview recently something to the effect that the Monster album was when he knew there was a dividing line -- that many, if not most of the fans who had hung on since the beginning would fall off or drift away. I wonder now, reading this statement from him, whether the recording of that album was, in a way, an underlining of the difference between the out Michael Stipe and the "quiet, difficult, enigmatic, paralysingly shy artist" of the prior albums. I never thought of him particularly as "enigmatic" -- at least not after REM released the gloriously aggressive Lifes Rich Pageant -- but I have a feeling that others continued to see him that way no matter how clear REM's lyrics and sound became.
I have never met this person. So I don't know why his sexual anything should be a matter of my concern.
This comment, wow. But alas, an all-too-common sentiment -- and one that seems to increase in loudness and insistence as more and more people come out. It's as though another person's statement of identity is a threat, thus the elaborate pretense at concern-trolling that says, in essence, "I'm indifferent, but -- still -- how dare you shove it in my face?"
posted by blucevalo at 7:26 PM on October 26, 2014 [9 favorites]
Treepour, you can't bring up Michael Stipe and Butt Magazine without mentioning the Casey Spooner interview where he dishes: "People give (Stipe) hell, but he was a good lay. He could fuck the chrome off a bumper."
posted by roger ackroyd at 10:41 PM on October 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by roger ackroyd at 10:41 PM on October 26, 2014 [2 favorites]
He could fuck the chrome off a bumper.
What? No. The expression is "suck the chrome off a [bumper/trailer hitch]." Sucking, because you're good at blowjobs. "Fucking" the chrome off doesn't make any sense.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:06 AM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
What? No. The expression is "suck the chrome off a [bumper/trailer hitch]." Sucking, because you're good at blowjobs. "Fucking" the chrome off doesn't make any sense.
posted by Faint of Butt at 5:06 AM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
Aw, that little piece is short but sweet. I identify with it.
(I can't remember where I first heard this REM funfact, but I do remember the ridiculous but rad suit+skirt combo MS rocked on their 2001 MTV Unplugged recording.)
posted by deludingmyself at 5:34 AM on October 27, 2014
(I can't remember where I first heard this REM funfact, but I do remember the ridiculous but rad suit+skirt combo MS rocked on their 2001 MTV Unplugged recording.)
posted by deludingmyself at 5:34 AM on October 27, 2014
Faint Of Butt, it is my duty to inform you that there are people who are sexually attracted to vehicles
posted by thelonius at 5:54 AM on October 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by thelonius at 5:54 AM on October 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
Back at the dawn of internet time, I was a maintainer of the rec.music.rem FAQ and this was always a source of controversy on the Usenet group, between people who knew enough about the band and its members' lives to take Stipe's being queer (or bisexual as it was usually framed back then, rather than queer) for granted, versus the more casual fans, usually young guys who -- because they by force of habit always strongly identified with the lead singer of bands they were heavily into but were straight dudes themselves -- felt some kind of upsetting normative shock or something when they realized this rock star they thought was so amazing and who they identified strongly with was queer, or gay, or whatever, and their reaction was, I'll fight anyone who says this. So there were some very angry college-age dudes back in the day, sometimes posting their angry arguments against the possibility of Stipe being gay, or bi, or queer, to the newsgroup.
I think what bothered some folks, pre-Stipe's definitive "coming out," was that his standard line usually was something along the lines of "Don't ask me those questions, I refuse all labels" which many people took as a troubling equivocation.
posted by aught at 6:19 AM on October 27, 2014 [4 favorites]
I think what bothered some folks, pre-Stipe's definitive "coming out," was that his standard line usually was something along the lines of "Don't ask me those questions, I refuse all labels" which many people took as a troubling equivocation.
posted by aught at 6:19 AM on October 27, 2014 [4 favorites]
I'm old enough to remember that back then, only 20 years ago, a public figure coming out was rare, and very brave. It was a risk of losing one's career. So I respect what he did. He was one if the people who paved the way for today's "not such a big deal" attitude towards celebrities coming out.
posted by happyroach at 7:14 AM on October 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by happyroach at 7:14 AM on October 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
I'm assuming there's a comment which has been deleted; people are quoting something I can't see. In any case, the problem with "be gay all you want, just don't shove it in my face" as an argument is that it overlooks (or deliberately ignores) the many ways straight people advertise being straight--from wedding rings (when marriage was until just recently the exclusive province of straight people in the U.S., and in many states still is) to family photos to a man's casual mentions of "this weekend I took my wife and kids to," etc.
Queer people aren't asking for special privileges in being open with who we are, we're asking for parity. You get to talk, without shame and without condemnation, about your partners? That's great, really. We'd like the same thing.
posted by johnofjack at 8:44 AM on October 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
Queer people aren't asking for special privileges in being open with who we are, we're asking for parity. You get to talk, without shame and without condemnation, about your partners? That's great, really. We'd like the same thing.
posted by johnofjack at 8:44 AM on October 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
As teenager hanging out in a pretty queer crowd in the late 90s, I remember a ton of debate about whether Stipe was "really" straight or "really" gay.
And I'm sort of embarrassed to admit that, even though I came out as bi not long after he did, I pretty much bought into the terms of the debate — took it for granted that eventually he was going to have to "pick a side" and found it pretty weird and gross that he was refusing to.
Like, I came out at age 15, I had a bunch of serious relationships with men and women in the years after that, I could recite all the talking points about queer pride, but until super recently I was still in my own head stuck in this shitty way of thinking about the whole thing. I guess the idea was something like "Well, if you're gay, you'll have to come out eventually, because you can't just date members of the 'opposite sex.' But you can if you're bi — so there's no justification for being all loud and flagrant about who-all else you're attracted to on the side."
Which is so fucked up. I mean, it's hard even to find a way of putting it down in writing where it isn't immediately obvious how fucked up it is. But I bought it for decades, so. Yeah.
All of which is to say that I'm really impressed with what Stipe did, even though he was far enough ahead of the time that I didn't appreciate it back then. Queer culture is changing and there's a lot more pushback against biphobia now and that's awesome. But to get clear on that stuff back then, and be open about it when there was a ton of pressure even from other queers to shut up and not talk about it, was really impressive.
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:30 AM on October 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
And I'm sort of embarrassed to admit that, even though I came out as bi not long after he did, I pretty much bought into the terms of the debate — took it for granted that eventually he was going to have to "pick a side" and found it pretty weird and gross that he was refusing to.
Like, I came out at age 15, I had a bunch of serious relationships with men and women in the years after that, I could recite all the talking points about queer pride, but until super recently I was still in my own head stuck in this shitty way of thinking about the whole thing. I guess the idea was something like "Well, if you're gay, you'll have to come out eventually, because you can't just date members of the 'opposite sex.' But you can if you're bi — so there's no justification for being all loud and flagrant about who-all else you're attracted to on the side."
Which is so fucked up. I mean, it's hard even to find a way of putting it down in writing where it isn't immediately obvious how fucked up it is. But I bought it for decades, so. Yeah.
All of which is to say that I'm really impressed with what Stipe did, even though he was far enough ahead of the time that I didn't appreciate it back then. Queer culture is changing and there's a lot more pushback against biphobia now and that's awesome. But to get clear on that stuff back then, and be open about it when there was a ton of pressure even from other queers to shut up and not talk about it, was really impressive.
posted by nebulawindphone at 9:30 AM on October 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
What? No. The expression is "suck the chrome off a [bumper/trailer hitch]." Sucking, because you're good at blowjobs. "Fucking" the chrome off doesn't make any sense.
Just imagine how crazy your fucking would have to be to get the chrome off...
if this truck's a-rockin....
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:38 AM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
Just imagine how crazy your fucking would have to be to get the chrome off...
if this truck's a-rockin....
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:38 AM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
No one ever says 'suck the chrome off a bumper.' It's either suck the chrome off the trailer hitch, or (and I do not think this sounds fun, if you think about it) suck a golfball through a garden hose.
posted by Mister_A at 11:18 AM on October 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Mister_A at 11:18 AM on October 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
But fuck the chrome off a bumper? Sure, why not? Implies vigorous fucking.
posted by Mister_A at 11:18 AM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Mister_A at 11:18 AM on October 27, 2014 [1 favorite]
Dude could chrome the bumps off a fucker if you know what I mean.
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:36 PM on October 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by nebulawindphone at 5:36 PM on October 27, 2014 [3 favorites]
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"These 20 years of publicly speaking my truth have made me a better and easier person to be around. It helped develop the clarity of my voice and establish who I would be as an adult. I am proud to be who I am, and I am happy to have shared that with the world."
posted by lookoutbelow at 2:38 PM on October 26, 2014 [2 favorites]