"I still get hate mail from active and retired police officers."
November 13, 2014 3:11 AM Subscribe
In the opening scene of the 1973 movie “Serpico,” I am shot in the face—or to be more accurate, the character of Frank Serpico, played by Al Pacino, is shot in the face. Even today it’s very difficult for me to watch those scenes, which depict in a very realistic and terrifying way what actually happened to me on Feb. 3, 1971.Frank Serpico: the police are still out of control.
And as long as we have the police "hero" culture and the job attracting the biggest assholes in anyone's HS growing up, it'll never change.
Police abuse is not an aberration or an exception. It is not an issue of shifting tactics, technologies, politics or philosophies. It is, and always has been, an issue of function and mandate.
posted by still bill at 4:24 AM on November 13, 2014 [9 favorites]
Police abuse is not an aberration or an exception. It is not an issue of shifting tactics, technologies, politics or philosophies. It is, and always has been, an issue of function and mandate.
posted by still bill at 4:24 AM on November 13, 2014 [9 favorites]
This:
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:26 AM on November 13, 2014 [29 favorites]
Today the combination of an excess of deadly force and near-total lack of accountability is more dangerous than ever: Most cops today can pull out their weapons and fire without fear that anything will happen to them, even if they shoot someone wrongfully. All a police officer has to say is that he believes his life was in danger, and he’s typically absolved. What do you think that does to their psychology as they patrol the streets—this sense of invulnerability? The famous old saying still applies: Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. (And we still don’t know how many of these incidents occur each year; even though Congress enacted the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act 20 years ago, requiring the Justice Department to produce an annual report on “the use of excessive force by law enforcement officers,” the reports were never issued.)Also, the system of "civil asset forfeiture," which is a euphemism for condoning theft by the police, encourages the police to see all of us as unimportant, lesser beings. To them, we really do live in a police state.
posted by Kirth Gerson at 4:26 AM on November 13, 2014 [29 favorites]
Yeah, civil asset forfeiture is literally the sort of behavior that police are designed to prevent and punish
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:40 AM on November 13, 2014 [13 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:40 AM on November 13, 2014 [13 favorites]
"You know the score: you're cop or you're little people."
posted by clvrmnky at 4:45 AM on November 13, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by clvrmnky at 4:45 AM on November 13, 2014 [7 favorites]
And as long as we have the police "hero" culture and the job attracting the biggest assholes in anyone's HS growing up, it'll never change.
A guy i know moved out of his home town when one day he got pulled over for no reason, and realized the cop who pulled him over had done it because he recognized him.
It was the guy who had bullied him all through grade school and high school. Like, ass kicking violent bullying. He was just continuing to bully him. That guy, and his asshole friends had all become cops in that town. Like straight out of high school, as quickly as you could get through the academy and do it.
Random anecdote, and i'm very much aware of the greater structural and institutional problems, but still... That's the kind of guy who wanted to be a cop, and they seemingly waved him right through the entire process without a second glance... straight to being one.
posted by emptythought at 5:12 AM on November 13, 2014 [46 favorites]
A guy i know moved out of his home town when one day he got pulled over for no reason, and realized the cop who pulled him over had done it because he recognized him.
It was the guy who had bullied him all through grade school and high school. Like, ass kicking violent bullying. He was just continuing to bully him. That guy, and his asshole friends had all become cops in that town. Like straight out of high school, as quickly as you could get through the academy and do it.
Random anecdote, and i'm very much aware of the greater structural and institutional problems, but still... That's the kind of guy who wanted to be a cop, and they seemingly waved him right through the entire process without a second glance... straight to being one.
posted by emptythought at 5:12 AM on November 13, 2014 [46 favorites]
What I don't get is how other western nations seem to have more-or-less gotten a handle on professional law enforcement, whereas in the US law enforcement seems to have largely avoided evolving away from the "thug with a badge" model.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:19 AM on November 13, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 5:19 AM on November 13, 2014 [9 favorites]
Hero culture is right. Half of American TV shows are about cops, and the other half are also about cops. And somewhere in there is almost inevitably the message that cops can do their jobs better with less oversight and more power, that they are the good guys being hamstrung by "Laws" and "Civil Rights." The person figuring out how to hold a suspect without charging them is almost always the hero.
My father always said that 90% of cops were good guys, but--even if those numbers are right, which I doubt--can you really be considered good if you protect the vile and violent 10%?
Also this is a good read, I didn't even know about this guy. Before my time I guess, although sadly still quite relevant.
posted by Uppity Pigeon #2 at 5:31 AM on November 13, 2014 [16 favorites]
My father always said that 90% of cops were good guys, but--even if those numbers are right, which I doubt--can you really be considered good if you protect the vile and violent 10%?
Also this is a good read, I didn't even know about this guy. Before my time I guess, although sadly still quite relevant.
posted by Uppity Pigeon #2 at 5:31 AM on November 13, 2014 [16 favorites]
I find it strangely charming that it looks like he's wearing a pair of Uggs in the picture of him on his property. He's fighting corruption and the evil in the human heart, but by golly, his feet are going to be comfy.
Seriously, reading this is just devastating. The fact that even ABSTAINING from wrongdoing is tantamount to a death sentence in some departments is just obscene.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 5:37 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
Seriously, reading this is just devastating. The fact that even ABSTAINING from wrongdoing is tantamount to a death sentence in some departments is just obscene.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 5:37 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
I think everyone knows that the police have serious impunity problems. But that's a tough nut to crack. Really, there are two kinds of problems in policing: low quality applicants (like the high school bullies) and low levels of oversight. The two are mutually reinforcing, but they're not the same problem, and that leads to confusion.
Most people think that police oversight is the solution. I used to work in police oversight, and I'm suspicious: the standards by which police are judged tend to be too lenient (like the reasonable officer standard). And it's very difficult to gather evidence or even open an investigation.
The real key is to professionalize the police force enough so that you get high quality applicants. Ironically, we know this best from the military: seeing the failures of command that led to atrocities during the draft era and the overall discipline of today's military, you can see that if you can afford to pay for it, a professional force can internalize the right norms of responsibility.
Of course, it's true that warfighters have perpetuated some terrible crimes, but the worst stuff, like Abu Graib, was done by reservists (who are more like draftees and amateurs than the active duty military). In the case of water boarding or the collateral murder video, it was a matter of deliberate policy choice by leadership: we should be so lucky to have police who only kill unarmed black men after receiving explicit instructions: then we just fire the officers and the problem is solved. What we have now in the US police forces is much worse.
If we ever get around to drawing down our active military, we might see a flood of experienced soldiers into the the police forces. Many will point to the abuses of Vietnam era returning draftees, and argue against hiring these veterans. But remember: this is a different group. Their rules of engagement in Iraq and Afghanistan were much tougher than any police officer ever faces! We might actually be better off with them in these roles rather than the cowardly and largely incompetent high school bullies who stayed home to shoot people who don't shoot back.
posted by anotherpanacea at 5:39 AM on November 13, 2014 [35 favorites]
Most people think that police oversight is the solution. I used to work in police oversight, and I'm suspicious: the standards by which police are judged tend to be too lenient (like the reasonable officer standard). And it's very difficult to gather evidence or even open an investigation.
The real key is to professionalize the police force enough so that you get high quality applicants. Ironically, we know this best from the military: seeing the failures of command that led to atrocities during the draft era and the overall discipline of today's military, you can see that if you can afford to pay for it, a professional force can internalize the right norms of responsibility.
Of course, it's true that warfighters have perpetuated some terrible crimes, but the worst stuff, like Abu Graib, was done by reservists (who are more like draftees and amateurs than the active duty military). In the case of water boarding or the collateral murder video, it was a matter of deliberate policy choice by leadership: we should be so lucky to have police who only kill unarmed black men after receiving explicit instructions: then we just fire the officers and the problem is solved. What we have now in the US police forces is much worse.
If we ever get around to drawing down our active military, we might see a flood of experienced soldiers into the the police forces. Many will point to the abuses of Vietnam era returning draftees, and argue against hiring these veterans. But remember: this is a different group. Their rules of engagement in Iraq and Afghanistan were much tougher than any police officer ever faces! We might actually be better off with them in these roles rather than the cowardly and largely incompetent high school bullies who stayed home to shoot people who don't shoot back.
posted by anotherpanacea at 5:39 AM on November 13, 2014 [35 favorites]
The biggest bully I know is now a cop here. He actually mostly works on grants and community outreach stuff and doesn't seem to be a complete asshole.
In high school he had to get stitches because I kicked his ass. (Technically, I punched his face and rammed him into the floor face first.) I'm not saying that getting his ass kicked by a girl changed him. I just hope it made him think. He apologized to me about his behavior years after the fact.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 5:42 AM on November 13, 2014 [35 favorites]
In high school he had to get stitches because I kicked his ass. (Technically, I punched his face and rammed him into the floor face first.) I'm not saying that getting his ass kicked by a girl changed him. I just hope it made him think. He apologized to me about his behavior years after the fact.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 5:42 AM on November 13, 2014 [35 favorites]
If there's one plain-and-simple issue that separates the US from the rest of the western nations when it comes to policing, it's gun control.
It's much easier for police in other countries to do their work when they're less likely to have to deal with ordinary lawbreakers having absurdly easy access to handguns. In the US, they instead have to keep in mind during their daily work that any person they encounter might have a concealed firearm. This in turn means that the job will attract those who embrace the idea of frontier-style six-gun justice and discourage those who don't want to get shot in the face. Contrary to gun-totin' propaganda—and this is coming from a Second Amendment supporter—an armed society doesn't lead to a "polite society" but instead to us-against-them cops, which makes it of course that much harder to come down on police corruption or support whistleblowers.
It shouldn't be surprising Frank Serpico continues to get hate mail from ex-cops and cops: He's a true-blue officer of the law who holds them to a high standard of justice that he continues to defend.
posted by Doktor Zed at 5:42 AM on November 13, 2014 [28 favorites]
It's much easier for police in other countries to do their work when they're less likely to have to deal with ordinary lawbreakers having absurdly easy access to handguns. In the US, they instead have to keep in mind during their daily work that any person they encounter might have a concealed firearm. This in turn means that the job will attract those who embrace the idea of frontier-style six-gun justice and discourage those who don't want to get shot in the face. Contrary to gun-totin' propaganda—and this is coming from a Second Amendment supporter—an armed society doesn't lead to a "polite society" but instead to us-against-them cops, which makes it of course that much harder to come down on police corruption or support whistleblowers.
It shouldn't be surprising Frank Serpico continues to get hate mail from ex-cops and cops: He's a true-blue officer of the law who holds them to a high standard of justice that he continues to defend.
posted by Doktor Zed at 5:42 AM on November 13, 2014 [28 favorites]
My favourite part of this article is the picture of Serpico wearing UGGs.
Dude is just all like "Fuck it, they're comfortable".
posted by srboisvert at 5:44 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
Dude is just all like "Fuck it, they're comfortable".
posted by srboisvert at 5:44 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
In high school he had to get stitches because I kicked his ass. (Technically, I punched his face and rammed him into the floor face first.) I'm not saying that getting his ass kicked by a girl changed him. I just hope it made him think. He apologized to me about his behavior years after the fact.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 8:42 AM on November 13 [+] [!]
*eponysterical slow clap*
posted by echocollate at 5:46 AM on November 13, 2014 [42 favorites]
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 8:42 AM on November 13 [+] [!]
*eponysterical slow clap*
posted by echocollate at 5:46 AM on November 13, 2014 [42 favorites]
The fact that even ABSTAINING from wrongdoing is tantamount to a death sentence in some departments is just obscene.
And you're still taking your life in your hands if you expose it - NYPD whistleblower Adrian Schoolcraft was forcibly institutionalized on orders of his superiors, and has been repeatedly threatened by other officers.
If you want to see what the US is heading for post-Ferguson, take a look at Mexico, where the fusion of the state, corporations, and organized crime is complete. The police abuse and murder anyone who dares to challenge the elite with total impunity. It will become the norm here, too.
posted by ryanshepard at 5:52 AM on November 13, 2014 [11 favorites]
And you're still taking your life in your hands if you expose it - NYPD whistleblower Adrian Schoolcraft was forcibly institutionalized on orders of his superiors, and has been repeatedly threatened by other officers.
If you want to see what the US is heading for post-Ferguson, take a look at Mexico, where the fusion of the state, corporations, and organized crime is complete. The police abuse and murder anyone who dares to challenge the elite with total impunity. It will become the norm here, too.
posted by ryanshepard at 5:52 AM on November 13, 2014 [11 favorites]
"It's much easier for police in other countries to do their work when they're less likely to have to deal with ordinary lawbreakers having absurdly easy access to handguns. In the US, they instead have to keep in mind during their daily work that any person they encounter might have a concealed firearm."
I then wonder how the police departments in the Czech Republic deals with it since their gun laws seem to be more liberal (as in "more allowing") than U.S. gun laws.
posted by I-baLL at 5:54 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
I then wonder how the police departments in the Czech Republic deals with it since their gun laws seem to be more liberal (as in "more allowing") than U.S. gun laws.
posted by I-baLL at 5:54 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Robert Leuci came to a screening of Prince of the City in NY a few years ago; he said he thinks that Prohibition is what corrupted the police in the US.
posted by brujita at 5:57 AM on November 13, 2014 [7 favorites]
posted by brujita at 5:57 AM on November 13, 2014 [7 favorites]
It should be pretty obvious that prohibition of drugs is a machine for creating police corruption. You've got cops with constant access to contraband and money, both of which are officially recorded in whatever quantities the officers choose to report. Even without things like asset forfeiture, it's like we keep pouring gasoline on the fire and wondering why it isn't going out.
posted by graymouser at 6:00 AM on November 13, 2014 [15 favorites]
posted by graymouser at 6:00 AM on November 13, 2014 [15 favorites]
If you want to see what the US is heading for post-Ferguson, take a look at Mexico, where the fusion of the state, corporations, and organized crime is complete. The police abuse and murder anyone who dares to challenge the elite with total impunity. It will become the norm here, too.
I don't know. The police are certainly more militarized than before, but more corrupt? I see no evidence of that.
Which not to say they're clean, I just don't see any evidence that they've become more dirty.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:01 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
I don't know. The police are certainly more militarized than before, but more corrupt? I see no evidence of that.
Which not to say they're clean, I just don't see any evidence that they've become more dirty.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:01 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
"It's much easier for police in other countries to do their work when they're less likely to have to deal with ordinary lawbreakers having absurdly easy access to handguns. In the US, they instead have to keep in mind during their daily work that any person they encounter might have a concealed firearm."
I then wonder how the police departments in the Czech Republic deals with it since their gun laws seem to be more liberal (as in "more allowing") than U.S. gun laws.
Eh, it's six-of-one as to which more allowing. You need a license in the CR, and getting a license involves more testing and checking than a driver's license in the U.S., and owning/carrying a handgun requires approval from the police. See also Canada, which has relatively little gun control (compared to other Western/developed nations) and doesn't have nearly the gun crime that its southern neighbor does. As others have pointed out, it's the War on Drugs that's the real culprit -- when you've been fighting a "war" for two generations of police officers, you're going to end up with a more militarized mindset than the old "walking a beat" style of policing.
posted by Etrigan at 6:05 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
I then wonder how the police departments in the Czech Republic deals with it since their gun laws seem to be more liberal (as in "more allowing") than U.S. gun laws.
Eh, it's six-of-one as to which more allowing. You need a license in the CR, and getting a license involves more testing and checking than a driver's license in the U.S., and owning/carrying a handgun requires approval from the police. See also Canada, which has relatively little gun control (compared to other Western/developed nations) and doesn't have nearly the gun crime that its southern neighbor does. As others have pointed out, it's the War on Drugs that's the real culprit -- when you've been fighting a "war" for two generations of police officers, you're going to end up with a more militarized mindset than the old "walking a beat" style of policing.
posted by Etrigan at 6:05 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
For Driver's Ed, I had to sit in on traffic court, which in our small town was Municipal Court. While I was there, I saw a classmate get upbraided by the judge for beating a man. The judge said, "I have the funny feeling that I'm going to see you again. Let's avoid this." His mother was with him, and confessed that she was frightened of her own son.
Guess what that dude does now.
(I also know many perfectly nice LEOs...)
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:06 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
Guess what that dude does now.
(I also know many perfectly nice LEOs...)
posted by Sticherbeast at 6:06 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
What I don't get is how other western nations seem to have more-or-less gotten a handle on professional law enforcement, whereas in the US law enforcement seems to have largely avoided evolving away from the "thug with a badge" model.
Are there statistics behind this? I ask because this statement isn't really true to my personal experience, at least. (in terms of other western nations necessarily being "better"). Whenever I've been to other countries people are always complaining about the cops, much in the vein of the thread above. I guess cops probably shoot a lot less people in countries where they don't carry guns everywhere, at least.
It's weird but coming from living in a sort of downtrodden area I have always felt bad for the cops... whenever I see them they are patiently trying to mediate in some crazy dispute or other. Obviously that's a very selective view, of course.
posted by selfnoise at 6:06 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
Are there statistics behind this? I ask because this statement isn't really true to my personal experience, at least. (in terms of other western nations necessarily being "better"). Whenever I've been to other countries people are always complaining about the cops, much in the vein of the thread above. I guess cops probably shoot a lot less people in countries where they don't carry guns everywhere, at least.
It's weird but coming from living in a sort of downtrodden area I have always felt bad for the cops... whenever I see them they are patiently trying to mediate in some crazy dispute or other. Obviously that's a very selective view, of course.
posted by selfnoise at 6:06 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
~If you want to see what the US is heading for post-Ferguson, take a look at Mexico...
~I don't know. The police are certainly more militarized than before, but more corrupt? I see no evidence of that.
I think the point is that the police will increasingly be working to serve-and-protect the interests of the wealthy and corporations, and not the average citizen.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:07 AM on November 13, 2014 [3 favorites]
~I don't know. The police are certainly more militarized than before, but more corrupt? I see no evidence of that.
I think the point is that the police will increasingly be working to serve-and-protect the interests of the wealthy and corporations, and not the average citizen.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:07 AM on November 13, 2014 [3 favorites]
What I don't get is how other western nations seem to have more-or-less gotten a handle on professional law enforcement, whereas in the US law enforcement seems to have largely avoided evolving away from the "thug with a badge" model.
Have they? I mean, sure, non-US cops are much less likely to actually shoot you, probably for the simple reason that face people with firearms much less frequently.
But the RCMP's reputation is far from stellar, and the Montreal cops seem to be eternal contenders for Most Corrupt Cops in the World, and I wouldn't trust any element of the Italian law-enforcement or judicial system very far. It seems to me that the Thugs With Badges approach is still pretty common across the OECD.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:09 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
Have they? I mean, sure, non-US cops are much less likely to actually shoot you, probably for the simple reason that face people with firearms much less frequently.
But the RCMP's reputation is far from stellar, and the Montreal cops seem to be eternal contenders for Most Corrupt Cops in the World, and I wouldn't trust any element of the Italian law-enforcement or judicial system very far. It seems to me that the Thugs With Badges approach is still pretty common across the OECD.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:09 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
And as long as we have the police "hero" culture and the job attracting the biggest assholes in anyone's HS growing up, it'll never change.
I mean, it's laughable how true this is. The only bully at my high school that managed to get expelled for hazing joined the local police force approximately eighteen months later.
posted by thivaia at 6:11 AM on November 13, 2014
I mean, it's laughable how true this is. The only bully at my high school that managed to get expelled for hazing joined the local police force approximately eighteen months later.
posted by thivaia at 6:11 AM on November 13, 2014
Which not to say they're clean, I just don't see any evidence that they've become more dirty.
It feels more to me like we're emerging from a 50 or so year hiatus during which the police and National Guard couldn't with impunity, say, butcher striking workers.
They're not any more or less corrupt than they were in the past but, having watched the NYPD at Occupy Wall Street, they seem to be returning to a reflexive, brazen, brutal approach to doing the bidding of the wealthiest Americans.
This is likely just a feature of the rest of the world of the 50 year hiatus slowly vanishing, too. A return to the US historical norm vs. a sea change. And for people of color, of course, zero accountability police violence has been a constant.
posted by ryanshepard at 6:15 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
It feels more to me like we're emerging from a 50 or so year hiatus during which the police and National Guard couldn't with impunity, say, butcher striking workers.
They're not any more or less corrupt than they were in the past but, having watched the NYPD at Occupy Wall Street, they seem to be returning to a reflexive, brazen, brutal approach to doing the bidding of the wealthiest Americans.
This is likely just a feature of the rest of the world of the 50 year hiatus slowly vanishing, too. A return to the US historical norm vs. a sea change. And for people of color, of course, zero accountability police violence has been a constant.
posted by ryanshepard at 6:15 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
What I don't get is how other western nations seem to have more-or-less gotten a handle on professional law enforcement
Take a look at the UK police's record - jailing innocent people for IRA bombings, institutional racism and mass collusion and cover-up over the Hillsborough football disaster are just three examples.
I wouldn't say the US has a monopoly on having a small proportion of unpleasant characters and a culture of looking out for each other no matter what.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 6:18 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Take a look at the UK police's record - jailing innocent people for IRA bombings, institutional racism and mass collusion and cover-up over the Hillsborough football disaster are just three examples.
I wouldn't say the US has a monopoly on having a small proportion of unpleasant characters and a culture of looking out for each other no matter what.
posted by GallonOfAlan at 6:18 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
My favourite part of this article is the picture of Serpico wearing UGGs.
Dude is just all like "Fuck it, they're comfortable".
He can pull it off. It's all like, "Sure, you can criticize my footwear the next time you survive a bullet in the face too."
posted by jonp72 at 6:28 AM on November 13, 2014
Dude is just all like "Fuck it, they're comfortable".
He can pull it off. It's all like, "Sure, you can criticize my footwear the next time you survive a bullet in the face too."
posted by jonp72 at 6:28 AM on November 13, 2014
Graymouser, Leuci meant the 18th amendment to the US constitution, which was directed at alcohol.
posted by brujita at 6:29 AM on November 13, 2014
posted by brujita at 6:29 AM on November 13, 2014
My husband was a prosecutor for many years, and many of our friends are cops. While I think a lot of them are inherently good guys, it is AMAZING the level of vigilantism that they have. There's the "running tax", the "wife-beater tax" (which only applies to abusers of white women - and that the white woman has never called for a domestic before - if you call more than once and don't take it all the way to court - you're screwed), the "melanin tax", and so on and on. They see this as their responsibility (and not flagrant disregard of civil rights)- because "it's the only way to keep the scum in the streets in line" - as most cops think our justice system is broken.
So - our justice system is broke and lets the scum bags go free, so let's wildly break the justice system some more by enacting our own "justice." I swear - they all think they're Batman.
posted by Suffocating Kitty at 6:30 AM on November 13, 2014 [18 favorites]
So - our justice system is broke and lets the scum bags go free, so let's wildly break the justice system some more by enacting our own "justice." I swear - they all think they're Batman.
posted by Suffocating Kitty at 6:30 AM on November 13, 2014 [18 favorites]
Graymouser, Leuci meant the 18th amendment to the US constitution, which was directed at alcohol.
I started typing before I saw that comment, and it was just coincidence; I meant prohibition of drugs, not of alcohol.
posted by graymouser at 6:35 AM on November 13, 2014
I started typing before I saw that comment, and it was just coincidence; I meant prohibition of drugs, not of alcohol.
posted by graymouser at 6:35 AM on November 13, 2014
There's the "running tax", the "wife-beater tax" (which only applies to abusers of white women - and that the white woman has never called for a domestic before - if you call more than once and don't take it all the way to court - you're screwed), the "melanin tax", and so on and on. . . . they all think they're Batman.
I'll just leave this here.
posted by ryanshepard at 6:41 AM on November 13, 2014
I'll just leave this here.
posted by ryanshepard at 6:41 AM on November 13, 2014
This is why we need and have a Second amendment.
(Also, what's with all the violent feline names? Did I miss something zeitgeisty?)
posted by Renoroc at 6:50 AM on November 13, 2014
(Also, what's with all the violent feline names? Did I miss something zeitgeisty?)
posted by Renoroc at 6:50 AM on November 13, 2014
Suffocating Kitty, I'm baffled how people who are massively terrifying moral failures could ever be considered "inherently good".
posted by Coatlicue at 6:51 AM on November 13, 2014 [8 favorites]
posted by Coatlicue at 6:51 AM on November 13, 2014 [8 favorites]
The new TL;DR - Too Painful; Couldn't Finish.
posted by bq at 6:52 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by bq at 6:52 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
And somewhere in there is almost inevitably the message that cops can do their jobs better with less oversight and more power, that they are the good guys being hamstrung by "Laws" and "Civil Rights."
UGH YES this is the main reason I can't stand a lot of "classic" movies like Dirty Harry about awesome cops who Play By Their Own Rules and Get the Job Done. I don't want them to play by their own rules! I want them to play by the rules outlined to control their behavior and protect citizens! Why do we make these guys heroes? What the fuck is wrong with us?
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:09 AM on November 13, 2014 [23 favorites]
UGH YES this is the main reason I can't stand a lot of "classic" movies like Dirty Harry about awesome cops who Play By Their Own Rules and Get the Job Done. I don't want them to play by their own rules! I want them to play by the rules outlined to control their behavior and protect citizens! Why do we make these guys heroes? What the fuck is wrong with us?
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 7:09 AM on November 13, 2014 [23 favorites]
Yeah, civil asset forfeiture is literally the sort of behavior that police are designed to prevent and punish
Well, designed to prevent and punish when it happens to relatively wealthy people, anyway.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 7:11 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Well, designed to prevent and punish when it happens to relatively wealthy people, anyway.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 7:11 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
I got really into old Dragnet episodes on Netflix for a while, but a few seasons in I had to stop watching in frustration at the increasing number of episodes that were based around denial of the brutality and racism going on in the LAPD of the era.
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:14 AM on November 13, 2014
posted by The Underpants Monster at 7:14 AM on November 13, 2014
Coatlique - perhaps I should have made it more clear that these are ideas described to me by these officers and not necessarily what these specific that I know officers believe/practice.
posted by Suffocating Kitty at 7:16 AM on November 13, 2014
posted by Suffocating Kitty at 7:16 AM on November 13, 2014
"Robert Leuci came to a screening of Prince of the City in NY a few years ago; he said he thinks that Prohibition is what corrupted the police in the US."
There was never a noble or good institution to corrupt. It's not about corruption (the Serpico article is, sure, but not the problem of police), it's about purpose. Police exist--have always existed--as an institution to produce and reproduce order, and that order is oppressive. Mayberry never existed, and even if it had, Otis spent far too much time in a cage. Debates about militarization, corruption, and brutality too often miss the big picture: the mandate and function of police is oppression and violence.
posted by still bill at 7:19 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
There was never a noble or good institution to corrupt. It's not about corruption (the Serpico article is, sure, but not the problem of police), it's about purpose. Police exist--have always existed--as an institution to produce and reproduce order, and that order is oppressive. Mayberry never existed, and even if it had, Otis spent far too much time in a cage. Debates about militarization, corruption, and brutality too often miss the big picture: the mandate and function of police is oppression and violence.
posted by still bill at 7:19 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
There was never a noble or good institution to corrupt. It's not about corruption (the Serpico article is, sure, but not the problem of police), it's about purpose. Police exist--have always existed--as an institution to produce and reproduce order, and that order is oppressive. Mayberry never existed, and even if it had, Otis spent far too much time in a cage. Debates about militarization, corruption, and brutality too often miss the big picture: the mandate and function of police is oppression and violence.
I find this sort of thing frustrating. You are asking the right question: what is the function of the police in the reproduction of social order. But rather than look for answers, which are complicated, you default to "oppression and violence" which is boiler-plate and practically content-free.
But, the social position of most of the people in this thread depends upon the work that cops do so it's not much of a conversation unless you start talking about what the social order is in the US. It's particularly stark in small towns and the function that young thugs play, on both sides of the thin blue line is also pretty clear.
posted by ennui.bz at 7:31 AM on November 13, 2014 [8 favorites]
I find this sort of thing frustrating. You are asking the right question: what is the function of the police in the reproduction of social order. But rather than look for answers, which are complicated, you default to "oppression and violence" which is boiler-plate and practically content-free.
But, the social position of most of the people in this thread depends upon the work that cops do so it's not much of a conversation unless you start talking about what the social order is in the US. It's particularly stark in small towns and the function that young thugs play, on both sides of the thin blue line is also pretty clear.
posted by ennui.bz at 7:31 AM on November 13, 2014 [8 favorites]
My mother works as a civilian guard (municipal employee, not RCMP member) at an RCMP detachment. Our family has RCMP members over rather regularly for dinners and get-togethers, as my mother is a gregarious sort. The stories that these men and women share with a laugh and a smile are shocking. The battle cry of the RCMP member may as well be "they had it coming".
On the other hand, these members also perform some very important acts in the community. For example, there are only so many shelter beds in the city and for at least one of the shelters you must be sober or you will be denied entry (fuck you, sally ann). So when it gets really cold, the police go on a "DIP run". They pick up the homeless ostensibly on drunk in public complaints, keep them indoors for the night, give them some food, then cut them loose with no charges the next day. In a community that hits -30C on the regular in winter, that's kind of a big deal.
Two subjects that are always fun to discuss with RCMP members: the fact that their job is actually a lot safer than, say, farmer or oil field worker, and the fact that police are not actually effective in reducing crime. These folks firmly believe that they take their lives in their hands with every speeding ticket they write and that if not for them we would be murdering each other in the streets.
posted by Sternmeyer at 7:31 AM on November 13, 2014 [10 favorites]
On the other hand, these members also perform some very important acts in the community. For example, there are only so many shelter beds in the city and for at least one of the shelters you must be sober or you will be denied entry (fuck you, sally ann). So when it gets really cold, the police go on a "DIP run". They pick up the homeless ostensibly on drunk in public complaints, keep them indoors for the night, give them some food, then cut them loose with no charges the next day. In a community that hits -30C on the regular in winter, that's kind of a big deal.
Two subjects that are always fun to discuss with RCMP members: the fact that their job is actually a lot safer than, say, farmer or oil field worker, and the fact that police are not actually effective in reducing crime. These folks firmly believe that they take their lives in their hands with every speeding ticket they write and that if not for them we would be murdering each other in the streets.
posted by Sternmeyer at 7:31 AM on November 13, 2014 [10 favorites]
It's weird but coming from living in a sort of downtrodden area I have always felt bad for the cops... whenever I see them they are patiently trying to mediate in some crazy dispute or other.
Yeah, this is something that always has to be kept in mind when talking about police violence and corruption: police deal with appalling shit all day, every day. It is a common sport for teenage boys in poor areas to walk past cops and reach under their shirts like they're about to pull a gun (it's like a hyperdangerous version of "two for flinching"). Cops will respond to a domestic violence call, cuff the abuser, then get attacked by the spouse because they're roughing up their partner. Cops constantly get people complaining of being mugged when they're just trying to rip off their own drug dealer.
None of this excuses police lawlessness. But if you treat police violence as a matter of those blue meanies being mean (which is not entirely untrue), then you're never, ever going to make a dent in it, because you don't understand it. Lack of oversight is a huge factor– if there's no penalty for being violent, people will be violent– but it's very hard to get people to turn in those who've been in fucked-up situations with them.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 7:55 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yeah, this is something that always has to be kept in mind when talking about police violence and corruption: police deal with appalling shit all day, every day. It is a common sport for teenage boys in poor areas to walk past cops and reach under their shirts like they're about to pull a gun (it's like a hyperdangerous version of "two for flinching"). Cops will respond to a domestic violence call, cuff the abuser, then get attacked by the spouse because they're roughing up their partner. Cops constantly get people complaining of being mugged when they're just trying to rip off their own drug dealer.
None of this excuses police lawlessness. But if you treat police violence as a matter of those blue meanies being mean (which is not entirely untrue), then you're never, ever going to make a dent in it, because you don't understand it. Lack of oversight is a huge factor– if there's no penalty for being violent, people will be violent– but it's very hard to get people to turn in those who've been in fucked-up situations with them.
posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 7:55 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
> "thug with a badge"
Here is the thing. We law abiding citizens are terrified of the neighborhood gangsters--your Crips, your Bloods, your Latin Kings &c. So we have our thugs that are purported to protect us from those thugs. We law abiding citizens have been jumped into the Cop Gang.
posted by bukvich at 7:57 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Here is the thing. We law abiding citizens are terrified of the neighborhood gangsters--your Crips, your Bloods, your Latin Kings &c. So we have our thugs that are purported to protect us from those thugs. We law abiding citizens have been jumped into the Cop Gang.
posted by bukvich at 7:57 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
The police abuse and murder anyone who dares to challenge the elite with total impunity. It will become the norm here, too.
It's already the norm for people who aren't white.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:15 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
It's already the norm for people who aren't white.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:15 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
It's already the norm for people who aren't white.
In my next comment in the thread:
And for people of color, of course, zero accountability police violence has been a constant.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:22 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
In my next comment in the thread:
And for people of color, of course, zero accountability police violence has been a constant.
posted by ryanshepard at 8:22 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
Mike Konczal: Selling Fast: Public Goods, Profits, and State Legitimacy
Our government is being remade in this mold-the mold of a business. The past thirty years have seen massive, outright privatization of government services. Meanwhile the logic of business, competition, and the profit motive has been introduced into what remains.posted by tonycpsu at 8:31 AM on November 13, 2014 [17 favorites]
But for those with a long enough historical memory, this is nothing new. Through the first half of our country's history, public officials were paid according to the profit motive, and it was only through the failures of that system that a fragile accountability was put into place during the Progressive Era. One of the key sources of this accountability was the establishment of salaries for public officials who previously had been paid on commission.
As this professionalized system is dismantled, once-antique notions are becoming relevant again. Consider merit pay schemes whereby teachers are now meant to compete with each other for bonuses. This mirrors the 1770 Maryland assembly's argument that public officials "would not perform their duties with as much diligence when paid a fixed salary as when paid for each particular service." And note that the criminal justice system now profits from forfeiture of property and court fees levied on offenders, recalling Thomas Brackett Reed, the House Republican leader who, in 1887, argued, "In order to bring your criminals against the United States laws to detection" you "need to have the officials stimulated by a similar self-interest to that which excites and supports and sustains the criminal."
The dissolution of the old system, and its return with a vengeance, are the subjects of three recent books on the everyday lives of our front-line public employees. In Against the Profit Motive, legal scholar Nicholas R. Parrillo documents how the original system of commission-based public service grew ripe for corruption and was eventually curtailed through the bureaucratic innovation of the salary. The theories and history Parrillo documents form the perfect background for tackling the radical changes taking place in policing and teaching in recent decades, stories told in Dana Goldstein's The Teacher Wars and Radley Balko's Rise of the Warrior Cop.
[...]
In The Rise of the Warrior Cop, Balko does an excellent job documenting the growth of the SWAT team and the legal innovation of the "no-knock warrant"-and how both have spiraled out of control.
[...]
The book is an expansion of Balko's research and reporting on SWAT raids, and it is a fine summary of the material. However, his historical reading doesn't point in a useful direction. The book opens with the question "Are cops constitutional?" and argues, surprisingly, that "even the early-nineteenth century police forces" likely were not. If Balko is right, even the salary revolution was beside the point, and our only acceptable choice would be a return to eighteenth-century notions of "individualized, private methods of law enforcement."
Balko understands that such a system would be impractical in the twenty-first century, but he argues that the departure from it set up the problems we now face. Yet what we see today is exactly a blending of public and private punitive policing. Stand-your-ground laws, the explosion in private security guards, and the emergence of the profit motive in everything from prisons to probation coexist peacefully with mass incarceration and the SWAT team. Retreating into a purely private world is noanswer to the challenge of police militarization.
[...]
Though the situation looks bleak, small pockets of hope are visible. The actions of police, particularly in the aftermath of the shooting of Michael Brown, have prompted public debate on militarization. Marijuana legalization could help curtail the abusive war on drugs. And concerns about the excesses of testing, along with increasing teacher mobilization, could put the education reform movement back into balance.
But a real balance won't be achieved without a change in how we view the notion of the public. For decades the state, professionalized bureaucracy, democratic control of public finance, and the public itself have been vilified, while incentive pay and volunteerism-exemplified by homeschooling, armed self-defense, the anti-vaccination movement, and other forms of civic abandonment-have been ascendant. But as history shows, these rearguard actions make a fragile line of defense against the state's imperfections, and the ills of corruption and illegitimacy they breed can be far worse than any problems such anti-public measures may hope to solve.
Why do we make these guys heroes? What the fuck is wrong with us?
Umm. Cause we are so easily brainwashed?
posted by notreally at 8:43 AM on November 13, 2014
Umm. Cause we are so easily brainwashed?
posted by notreally at 8:43 AM on November 13, 2014
I have a semi-buddy who became a cop. He was a stoic guy who was nice enough but after a few years, he had become obviously bitter and weirdly racist. He would discuss X group of people in these large swath statements that were very dehumanizing and he could not be persuaded that his experiences were smaller than the entirety of X group. It seemed to me that he was locked in a mindset of consistent siege but didn't know it. Horrifying to watch.
I'm not sure if those ideas were already in his personality and daily The Worst Of People(tm) made them grow but the job certainly made him a harder, meaner, less empathic person. If by necessity or design, I don't know.
posted by cheap paper at 8:50 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure if those ideas were already in his personality and daily The Worst Of People(tm) made them grow but the job certainly made him a harder, meaner, less empathic person. If by necessity or design, I don't know.
posted by cheap paper at 8:50 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
As an Oaklander who got an up close view of how OPD conducts itself against street protestors, "Film The Police" is one of my mantras.
But I don't want to do do away with the police for the simple reason that whatever "people's militia" replaces them will be even worse. This is where I vote all the anarchists off the Island.
People can talk about the cops being a gang, fine. But at least the police are a gang that are theoretically beholden to the laws of society. They haven't been, and have developed a culture of impunity over generations. But it's at least possible to talk of ending the drug war and taking the responsibility for investigating cops out of the precinct house as paths to improving how the police do their jobs.
I look at it this way: After the English Civil War, they killed Charles I and eliminated the office of "King", and installed Cromwell as "Lord Protector".
Except that a King had limits on his powers and responsibilities to his subjects and kingdom through age-old tradition and law. They suddenly discovered that a "Lord Protector" had all the powers of a king without the least bit of legal restraint on said powers.
This is largely why there was a Charles II after Warty-chin's death.
People who talk about eliminating the police are signing up for the Lord Protectorship of their local less organized, unaccountable, yet heavily armed gang.
I'm a citizen of a community and a nation; I'd rather fight for civilian review boards and vest/dashboard cameras than sign-up for life in Hobbeslandia (and I aint talking tigers).
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:51 AM on November 13, 2014 [30 favorites]
But I don't want to do do away with the police for the simple reason that whatever "people's militia" replaces them will be even worse. This is where I vote all the anarchists off the Island.
People can talk about the cops being a gang, fine. But at least the police are a gang that are theoretically beholden to the laws of society. They haven't been, and have developed a culture of impunity over generations. But it's at least possible to talk of ending the drug war and taking the responsibility for investigating cops out of the precinct house as paths to improving how the police do their jobs.
I look at it this way: After the English Civil War, they killed Charles I and eliminated the office of "King", and installed Cromwell as "Lord Protector".
Except that a King had limits on his powers and responsibilities to his subjects and kingdom through age-old tradition and law. They suddenly discovered that a "Lord Protector" had all the powers of a king without the least bit of legal restraint on said powers.
This is largely why there was a Charles II after Warty-chin's death.
People who talk about eliminating the police are signing up for the Lord Protectorship of their local less organized, unaccountable, yet heavily armed gang.
I'm a citizen of a community and a nation; I'd rather fight for civilian review boards and vest/dashboard cameras than sign-up for life in Hobbeslandia (and I aint talking tigers).
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:51 AM on November 13, 2014 [30 favorites]
Yeah, civil asset forfeiture is literally the sort of behavior that police are designed to prevent and punish
Well, designed to prevent and punish when it happens to relatively wealthy people, anyway.
Absolutely. The whole purpose of a police force is to protect the wealthy and guard their possessions from the poor. Always was and always will be.
Not saying a society could function without them. But I think it is better for all concerned to recognize the true purpose of police forces.
posted by notreally at 8:51 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
Well, designed to prevent and punish when it happens to relatively wealthy people, anyway.
Absolutely. The whole purpose of a police force is to protect the wealthy and guard their possessions from the poor. Always was and always will be.
Not saying a society could function without them. But I think it is better for all concerned to recognize the true purpose of police forces.
posted by notreally at 8:51 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
The police are too separate from the communities they work in. If I were the god of police force management, the police stations would be converted from disused buildings in the highest crime parts of town, and cops would patrol those areas on foot (no driving to work). Bonuses for cops who live in those areas. More meet and greet than swagger and threaten. Lower the pressure. No guns.
By the way, the only kid I know from high school who became a cop (state trooper) was more bullied than bullying.
posted by pracowity at 8:53 AM on November 13, 2014
By the way, the only kid I know from high school who became a cop (state trooper) was more bullied than bullying.
posted by pracowity at 8:53 AM on November 13, 2014
The police are too separate from the communities they work in.
Something like 7% of OPD live within Oakland. Most live out in "Transhillsistan", commute into Oaktown to "get their cop on where the action is", and think of us locals as savages.
The Cop union also aggressively fights local-living requirements. Because they don't want to live in the community they police.
Ya know what? Go walk a beat in Concord or Orinda.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:58 AM on November 13, 2014 [3 favorites]
Something like 7% of OPD live within Oakland. Most live out in "Transhillsistan", commute into Oaktown to "get their cop on where the action is", and think of us locals as savages.
The Cop union also aggressively fights local-living requirements. Because they don't want to live in the community they police.
Ya know what? Go walk a beat in Concord or Orinda.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:58 AM on November 13, 2014 [3 favorites]
I got really into old Dragnet episodes on Netflix for a while, but a few seasons in I had to stop watching in frustration at the increasing number of episodes that were based around denial of the brutality and racism going on in the LAPD of the era.
Underpants, if you're referring to Dragnet '67 -- the late 1960's revival that included Harry Morgan as Joe Gannon -- for those of us who were around then, "denial of the brutality and racism going on in the LAPD of the era" appeared to be the specific mission of the series. That and 'hippie punching'.
My two 'favourite' episodes are:
- Friday actually discharges his weapon while on duty for the first time and we are meant to sympathise with him for the horrible grilling and assumption of wrong-doing he undergoes during the investigation.
- A neonazi has put a time bomb in a grade school that's about to be racially integrated. Somehow, in Dragnet's twisted world-view, the purp is both a violent racist neonazi and an anti-establishment hippie.
posted by Herodios at 9:04 AM on November 13, 2014 [3 favorites]
See also Canada, which has relatively little gun control (compared to other Western/developed nations) and doesn't have nearly the gun crime that its southern neighbor does.
What are you talking about? Canada has pretty strict gun laws. Handgun carry is pretty much illegal outside of law enforcement officers and armoured cash truck staff. Handguns are severely restricted to the extent that you can't take them outside your house without special permission. You need a permit for transport and you have to unload and trigger lock them.
You get to carry if you are a trapper though. So there is that.
posted by srboisvert at 9:09 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
What are you talking about? Canada has pretty strict gun laws. Handgun carry is pretty much illegal outside of law enforcement officers and armoured cash truck staff. Handguns are severely restricted to the extent that you can't take them outside your house without special permission. You need a permit for transport and you have to unload and trigger lock them.
You get to carry if you are a trapper though. So there is that.
posted by srboisvert at 9:09 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
The whole purpose of a police force is to protect the wealthy and guard their possessions from the poor.
I say this a lot, but one of the most interesting (to me) ideas Graeber presented in Debt is that historically this is true of government as a whole.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:17 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
I say this a lot, but one of the most interesting (to me) ideas Graeber presented in Debt is that historically this is true of government as a whole.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:17 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
There are over 700,000 sworn law enforcement in the United States--I think the lack of objective data in the comments and post makes for interesting reading and anecdotes but that is all. As one who worked with individual police officers on a daily basis, and law enforcement agencies through out the United States as an outside consultant, I will put the professionalism of law enforcement officers right up there with many other professions. Of course it varies dramatically through out the country and with in individual organizations but even 1% (7,000+officers) can create serious problems. Many other countries have National Police forces which lends for more uniform administration/training/etc but probably also a regression to the mean. And, the extent that citizens are armed adds a whole other dimension to police and civilian violence. I would guess US police are much like other characteristics of the US--extremes of excellence and failure. I simply don't buy the generalized statements that police/law enforcement/cops are .......(fill in the blank). In over 35 years of working with police and mentally ill persons I have seen real compassion, substantial improvement in the handling of the mentally person by police and I have also seen occasional indifference if not neglect. But these broad bush strokes based on anecdotes, stories or very limited samples says very little about the nature of law enforcement.
posted by rmhsinc at 9:35 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by rmhsinc at 9:35 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
It is a common sport for teenage boys in poor areas to walk past cops and reach under their shirts like they're about to pull a gun (it's like a hyperdangerous version of "two for flinching").
Citation needed.
posted by spaceman_spiff at 9:45 AM on November 13, 2014 [7 favorites]
Citation needed.
posted by spaceman_spiff at 9:45 AM on November 13, 2014 [7 favorites]
The Extremest Sport
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:51 AM on November 13, 2014
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 9:51 AM on November 13, 2014
Debates about militarization, corruption, and brutality too often miss the big picture: the mandate and function of police is oppression and violence.
A police force fully accountable to a democratic society is even rarer than a military that fully complies with international law, but both are possible.
From The Peelian Principles (read the whole thing, they're great)
"recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect."
"the police are the public and...the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence."
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:51 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
A police force fully accountable to a democratic society is even rarer than a military that fully complies with international law, but both are possible.
From The Peelian Principles (read the whole thing, they're great)
"recognise always that the power of the police to fulfil their functions and duties is dependent on public approval of their existence, actions and behaviour, and on their ability to secure and maintain public respect."
"the police are the public and...the public are the police, the police being only members of the public who are paid to give full-time attention to duties which are incumbent on every citizen in the interests of community welfare and existence."
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 9:51 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Why do we make these guys heroes? What the fuck is wrong with us?
Umm. Cause we are so easily brainwashed?
Boycott Cop Culture ...
(a 1980s thing)
The text ...
IF ONE FICTIONAL FIGURE can be said to have dominated the popcult of the eighties, it was the Cop. Fuckin' police ev- erywhere you turned, worse than real life. What an incredible bore.
Powerful Cops--protecting the meek and humble--at the expense of a half-dozen or so articles of the Bill of Rights- -"Dirty Harry." Nice human cops, coping with human perversity, coming out sweet 'n' sour, you know, gruff & knowing but still soft inside--Hill Street Blues--most evil TV show ever. Wiseass black cops scoring witty racist remarks against hick white cops, who nevertheless come to love each other--Eddie Murphy, Class Traitor. For that masochist thrill we got wicked bent cops who threaten to topple our Kozy Konsensus Reality from within like Giger- designed tapeworms, but naturally get blown away just in the nick of time by the Last Honest Cop, Robocop, ideal amalgam of prosthesis and sentimentality.
We've been obsessed with cops since the beginning--but the rozzers of yore played bumbling fools, Keystone Kops, Car 54 Where Are You, booby-bobbies set up for Fatty Arbuckle or Buster Keaton to squash & deflate. But in the ideal drama of the eighties, the "little man" who once scattered bluebottles by the hundred with that anarchist's bomb, innocently used to light a cigarette--the Tramp, the victim with the sudden power of the pure heart--no longer has a place at the center of narrative. Once "we" were that hobo, that quasi-surrealist chaote hero who wins thru wu- wei over the ludicrous minions of a despised & irrelevant Order. But now "we" are reduced to the status of victims without power, or else criminals. "We" no longer occupy that central role; no longer the heros of our own stories, we've been marginalized & replaced by the Other, the Cop.
and so on ...
posted by philip-random at 9:51 AM on November 13, 2014
Umm. Cause we are so easily brainwashed?
Boycott Cop Culture ...
(a 1980s thing)
The text ...
IF ONE FICTIONAL FIGURE can be said to have dominated the popcult of the eighties, it was the Cop. Fuckin' police ev- erywhere you turned, worse than real life. What an incredible bore.
Powerful Cops--protecting the meek and humble--at the expense of a half-dozen or so articles of the Bill of Rights- -"Dirty Harry." Nice human cops, coping with human perversity, coming out sweet 'n' sour, you know, gruff & knowing but still soft inside--Hill Street Blues--most evil TV show ever. Wiseass black cops scoring witty racist remarks against hick white cops, who nevertheless come to love each other--Eddie Murphy, Class Traitor. For that masochist thrill we got wicked bent cops who threaten to topple our Kozy Konsensus Reality from within like Giger- designed tapeworms, but naturally get blown away just in the nick of time by the Last Honest Cop, Robocop, ideal amalgam of prosthesis and sentimentality.
We've been obsessed with cops since the beginning--but the rozzers of yore played bumbling fools, Keystone Kops, Car 54 Where Are You, booby-bobbies set up for Fatty Arbuckle or Buster Keaton to squash & deflate. But in the ideal drama of the eighties, the "little man" who once scattered bluebottles by the hundred with that anarchist's bomb, innocently used to light a cigarette--the Tramp, the victim with the sudden power of the pure heart--no longer has a place at the center of narrative. Once "we" were that hobo, that quasi-surrealist chaote hero who wins thru wu- wei over the ludicrous minions of a despised & irrelevant Order. But now "we" are reduced to the status of victims without power, or else criminals. "We" no longer occupy that central role; no longer the heros of our own stories, we've been marginalized & replaced by the Other, the Cop.
and so on ...
posted by philip-random at 9:51 AM on November 13, 2014
This is why we need and have a Second amendment.
Widespread gun carrying is an enormous factor in why US police are becoming increasingly militarized.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:55 AM on November 13, 2014 [7 favorites]
Widespread gun carrying is an enormous factor in why US police are becoming increasingly militarized.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:55 AM on November 13, 2014 [7 favorites]
According to Alan Dershowitz, it's the police who coined the term Testilying to describe what they do on the stand.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 10:04 AM on November 13, 2014
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 10:04 AM on November 13, 2014
The death of Michelle O'Connell is exhibit A on why the police can't be relied on to investigate their own when someone gets killed.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 10:07 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 10:07 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
UGH YES this is the main reason I can't stand a lot of "classic" movies like Dirty Harry about awesome cops who Play By Their Own Rules and Get the Job Done.
Yes, although I would point out that Magnum Force, the second Dirty Harry movie, featured Harry stopping a gang of renegade cops. Even Dirty Harry is capable of thinking the police force is out of control.
A family member is a cop, and I used to do annual ride-alongs at Christmas. It was sort of a holiday tradition with us. One year, just after the staff meeting that began each shift, one of the cops who was walking out the door to his squad car yelled out "God DAMN I'm in a bad mood today. Someone is about to get their ass kicked!" Everyone there could hear him. I looked around, waiting for a supervisor to call him back and do a little attitude adjustment before unleashing him on the world, or even for someone to say "Not cool, man." But nothing happened. Out on the streets he went, to serve and protect and kick someone's ass.
Maybe he didn't mean it. Maybe he was blowing off steam. I don't know the guy. From my perspective, he seemed serious about it. And in that department, on that day at least, walking out the door with the self-proclaimed mission to beat someone up was an acceptable thing. I know that's a relatively tiny matter, but it sent a big message to me that he was so open about it, and didn't mind everyone hearing him. Just another day at work.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 10:08 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
Yes, although I would point out that Magnum Force, the second Dirty Harry movie, featured Harry stopping a gang of renegade cops. Even Dirty Harry is capable of thinking the police force is out of control.
A family member is a cop, and I used to do annual ride-alongs at Christmas. It was sort of a holiday tradition with us. One year, just after the staff meeting that began each shift, one of the cops who was walking out the door to his squad car yelled out "God DAMN I'm in a bad mood today. Someone is about to get their ass kicked!" Everyone there could hear him. I looked around, waiting for a supervisor to call him back and do a little attitude adjustment before unleashing him on the world, or even for someone to say "Not cool, man." But nothing happened. Out on the streets he went, to serve and protect and kick someone's ass.
Maybe he didn't mean it. Maybe he was blowing off steam. I don't know the guy. From my perspective, he seemed serious about it. And in that department, on that day at least, walking out the door with the self-proclaimed mission to beat someone up was an acceptable thing. I know that's a relatively tiny matter, but it sent a big message to me that he was so open about it, and didn't mind everyone hearing him. Just another day at work.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 10:08 AM on November 13, 2014 [4 favorites]
"God DAMN I'm in a bad mood today. Someone is about to get their ass kicked!"
Maybe he was just a Robocop 2 fan.
posted by valkane at 10:13 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
Maybe he was just a Robocop 2 fan.
posted by valkane at 10:13 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
Out on the streets he went, to serve and protect and kick someone's ass.
Bonus Demonstration Effect for all of the officers who heard him and didn't see him reprimanded.
posted by rhizome at 10:21 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Bonus Demonstration Effect for all of the officers who heard him and didn't see him reprimanded.
posted by rhizome at 10:21 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
We can’t afford a scandal; it would undermine public confidence in our police.Exactly the same reasoning, with the same kind of horrific result, was used to hide pedophilia in the Catholic Church. This institution, they say, is too important for public confidence in it to be undermined.
posted by clawsoon at 10:23 AM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
...Eddie Murphy, Class Traitor...
Murphy's father was a police officer.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:02 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Murphy's father was a police officer.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:02 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
The whole purpose of a police force is to protect the wealthy and guard their possessions from the poor.
I say this a lot, but one of the most interesting (to me) ideas Graeber presented in Debt is that historically this is true of government as a whole.
And by the way, Graeber is in good scholarly company there. Sociologists such as Charles Tilly (author of the linked article) have been making similar observations for at least thirty years, and of course Marx and Engels themselves probably laid some groundwork for this sort of theorizing even though they were writing in an institutionally distinct historical era.
posted by clockzero at 11:23 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
I say this a lot, but one of the most interesting (to me) ideas Graeber presented in Debt is that historically this is true of government as a whole.
And by the way, Graeber is in good scholarly company there. Sociologists such as Charles Tilly (author of the linked article) have been making similar observations for at least thirty years, and of course Marx and Engels themselves probably laid some groundwork for this sort of theorizing even though they were writing in an institutionally distinct historical era.
posted by clockzero at 11:23 AM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
"That same detective, the report said, told at least three people that he or she "did not believe that simple rape should be a crime."
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:11 PM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by The Card Cheat at 12:11 PM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Citation needed
Here
That is not a citation for the thing that a citation was requested for. At all.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 1:46 PM on November 13, 2014
Here
That is not a citation for the thing that a citation was requested for. At all.
posted by Steely-eyed Missile Man at 1:46 PM on November 13, 2014
Citation needed
Here
I'm thinking this is a bit of an edge case. It's not clear that the kid who was shot was trying to make a game of it. The article states that it happened a few times (in Utah? anywhere else?), but nothing like your assertion that it is common in poor areas.
posted by krinklyfig at 1:48 PM on November 13, 2014
Here
I'm thinking this is a bit of an edge case. It's not clear that the kid who was shot was trying to make a game of it. The article states that it happened a few times (in Utah? anywhere else?), but nothing like your assertion that it is common in poor areas.
posted by krinklyfig at 1:48 PM on November 13, 2014
"Many people don't realize how many idiots police deal with. As a police officer, more than once I was approached by a kid (always on a bike) who would quickly reach into his waistband and act like he was pulling a gun to shoot me. Honestly, driving toward them, I never had time to react. Also, they were young teenagers. And unarmed. Still, it's the kind of dumb move that can get you killed.posted by ThatFuzzyBastard at 1:54 PM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
And yet when I've told seemingly smart people (who are far removed from ghetto policing) that this happened a few times, they stare at me in disbelief. They simply can't believe that anybody, much less a unarmed young black male, would do something so potentially lethally stupid as pretend to pull a gun out and shoot a cop. And yet that attitude was routine enough that I didn't even deem it worth mentioning it in my book. It was just some real life FATS training, I suppose."
It doesn't prove your assertion. This is one cop talking about his experiences.
I'm fully aware how dumb people can be, and how many people like to provoke cops. I'm willing to believe this was common in this cop's experience. But what you said isn't backed up with evidence.
One solution to this problem is to severely restrict gun ownership. An armed society is not a polite society; it's paranoid and reckless.
posted by krinklyfig at 2:07 PM on November 13, 2014 [3 favorites]
I'm fully aware how dumb people can be, and how many people like to provoke cops. I'm willing to believe this was common in this cop's experience. But what you said isn't backed up with evidence.
One solution to this problem is to severely restrict gun ownership. An armed society is not a polite society; it's paranoid and reckless.
posted by krinklyfig at 2:07 PM on November 13, 2014 [3 favorites]
in Dragnet's twisted world-view, the purp is both a violent racist neonazi and an anti-establishment hippie.
To be fair, Charles Manson kinda went on to demonstrate the plausibility of this combination pretty conclusively.
posted by howfar at 2:46 PM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
To be fair, Charles Manson kinda went on to demonstrate the plausibility of this combination pretty conclusively.
posted by howfar at 2:46 PM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
brujita:I've said it before, but after watching Ken Burns' Prohibition I'm convinced that the 18th amendment and the movement that led to its adoption are the root of a great deal of what's wrong with America, including among police.Robert Leuci came to a screening of Prince of the City in NY a few years ago; he said he thinks that Prohibition is what corrupted the police in the US.
posted by ob1quixote at 2:51 PM on November 13, 2014 [3 favorites]
And yet that attitude was routine enough that I didn't even deem it worth mentioning it in my book.Cop jazz! You gotta believe the evidence that isn't there!
posted by Rustic Etruscan at 3:15 PM on November 13, 2014 [5 favorites]
Frankly, given the number of ways police justify their violence because they thought someone had or was reaching for something that didn't turn out to be so, saying that someone was reaching for nothing and only gesturing like they were only enlarges the bucket of crappy excuses.
posted by rhizome at 3:55 PM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by rhizome at 3:55 PM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
From the New York Times, Police Use Department Wish List When Deciding Which Assets to Seize.
And somewhere in there is almost inevitably the message that cops can do their jobs better with less oversight and more power, that they are the good guys being hamstrung by "Laws" and "Civil Rights."
Right, like during the Rampart Scandal.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:31 PM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
And somewhere in there is almost inevitably the message that cops can do their jobs better with less oversight and more power, that they are the good guys being hamstrung by "Laws" and "Civil Rights."
Right, like during the Rampart Scandal.
posted by bile and syntax at 7:31 PM on November 13, 2014 [2 favorites]
Widespread gun carrying is an enormous factor in why US police are becoming increasingly militarized.
Cite plz.
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 8:07 PM on November 13, 2014
Cite plz.
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 8:07 PM on November 13, 2014
Multiple people in this thread have said the same thing. No citation is required; the more ehavily armed the general populace is, the more heavily armed the police (feel they need to) be in order to be safe. This is hardly a controversial concept.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:22 PM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:22 PM on November 13, 2014 [1 favorite]
Widespread gun carrying is an enormous factor in why US police are becoming increasingly militarized.
Violent crime has dropped while police shootings are at their highest in 20yrs and police deaths themselves are at a 50 year low. How does that state of affairs spell M-R-A-P?
posted by rhizome at 11:09 PM on November 13, 2014 [5 favorites]
Violent crime has dropped while police shootings are at their highest in 20yrs and police deaths themselves are at a 50 year low. How does that state of affairs spell M-R-A-P?
posted by rhizome at 11:09 PM on November 13, 2014 [5 favorites]
Multiple people in this thread have said the same thing. No citation is required
This is now considered logical discourse in MeFi threads? Seriously?
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 12:56 AM on November 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
This is now considered logical discourse in MeFi threads? Seriously?
posted by Purposeful Grimace at 12:56 AM on November 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
That spells MRAP because I didn't say anything about violent crime. I said "widespread gun carrying." When--again, as mentioned by others in this very thread so I'd love to know why I'm being picked on, and whatever your reasons, stop it please--a routine traffic stop could include someone with a gun, cops get nervous. A large chunk of the American populace is armed when they're out and about and/or have firearms to hand when at home. On top of which is the very American anti-authoritarian attitude (see, for example, that asshat in Nevada), and whether you agree with them or not, there's an arms race.
No citation is required for the same reason that no citation is required when saying "there is a huge prevalence of men catcalling women on the street, which leads to women feeling unsafe and harassed."
In any case, please go pick on the multiple people who have also said the same thing in this very thread. Thank you.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:19 AM on November 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
No citation is required for the same reason that no citation is required when saying "there is a huge prevalence of men catcalling women on the street, which leads to women feeling unsafe and harassed."
In any case, please go pick on the multiple people who have also said the same thing in this very thread. Thank you.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:19 AM on November 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
I can't find the reference off hand, but an article recently opined that "Officer safety" is being dragged out as the all-purpose, drop-of-a-hat excuse for brutality and violence. I thought he was going for a weapon, I felt in danger, yadda, yadda, yadda.
<INSERT BRUTAL ASS-KICKING/SHOOTING>
Oops, turns out he was unarmed. But I felt like I was in danger. Plus, I was all hopped up on adrenaline, what with the whole Darth Vader armor and military gear we've got.
When in doubt, fuck somebody up. Because even though violent crime is at historic lows, democratic policing and civil rights come second to officer safety.
To quote a former police chief, There is never an excuse for the police to shoot an unarmed suspect. Also, choking them to death is disallowed, one presumes.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:39 AM on November 14, 2014
<INSERT BRUTAL ASS-KICKING/SHOOTING>
Oops, turns out he was unarmed. But I felt like I was in danger. Plus, I was all hopped up on adrenaline, what with the whole Darth Vader armor and military gear we've got.
When in doubt, fuck somebody up. Because even though violent crime is at historic lows, democratic policing and civil rights come second to officer safety.
To quote a former police chief, There is never an excuse for the police to shoot an unarmed suspect. Also, choking them to death is disallowed, one presumes.
posted by Pirate-Bartender-Zombie-Monkey at 8:39 AM on November 14, 2014
This is now considered logical discourse in MeFi threads?
"Cite plz" is not really "logical discourse" either, you realize. With the follow-up, you're being pointlessly contrarian without saying why you (presumably) don't agree with the idea.
posted by Etrigan at 8:54 AM on November 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
"Cite plz" is not really "logical discourse" either, you realize. With the follow-up, you're being pointlessly contrarian without saying why you (presumably) don't agree with the idea.
posted by Etrigan at 8:54 AM on November 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
When...a routine traffic stop could include someone with a gun, cops get nervous.
When in the past 50 years of decreasing police deaths has this not been the case? You seem to be saying that there is a higher probability of gun possession (much less aggression, see: Erik Scott), but I'm not sure this is a fact. In context, if we can agree that possession is relatively constant, it's the increased nervousness that should be examined.
posted by rhizome at 10:09 AM on November 14, 2014
When in the past 50 years of decreasing police deaths has this not been the case? You seem to be saying that there is a higher probability of gun possession (much less aggression, see: Erik Scott), but I'm not sure this is a fact. In context, if we can agree that possession is relatively constant, it's the increased nervousness that should be examined.
posted by rhizome at 10:09 AM on November 14, 2014
Mod note: One comment deleted. Let's reel this back. Go ahead and make your points about the facts, just skip the interpersonal stuff, please.
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:27 PM on November 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by LobsterMitten (staff) at 1:27 PM on November 14, 2014 [1 favorite]
But I don't want to do do away with the police for the simple reason that whatever "people's militia" replaces them will be even worse. This is where I vote all the anarchists off the Island.
People can talk about the cops being a gang, fine. But at least the police are a gang that are theoretically beholden to the laws of society. They haven't been, and have developed a culture of impunity over generations. But it's at least possible to talk of ending the drug war and taking the responsibility for investigating cops out of the precinct house as paths to improving how the police do their jobs.
Almost true. There's been an ebb and flow of impunity over generations, with the trend, at least in industrialized democracies, being generally toward less impunity. We all have a responsibility to keep it going in that direction.
And the reason we should throw all the Anarchists off the island is that ultimately anarchism is the same garbage as libertarianism when it comes to running a society. It's an academic ideal. It works as a concept with which to examine ideas in an academic setting. Reality is too complicated to be effectively dealt with by such simplistic concepts.
And back to Pirate's central point: exactly. Anarchists, among themselves, govern by bully-ocracy. Like when the Oakland Holdout got displaced by Qilombo: at least one guy got ambushed and beaten. And there was no recourse. This is part of why Anarchist groups can't get beyond a certain minimal scale: they pretend nobody's in charge, some charismatic people subtly take charge, they become too unsubtle, there's an ugly upheaval and a lot of people leave during it. Rinse and repeat.
So too with their tantrum riots. Sooner or later people get sick of them, realize it's futile and juvenile, and lose interest. Thus there was a spike in Anarchism in the early 1900s, a long lull, a spike in the 60s, a long lull, and a spike now. Soon they'll be abandoned again, as one abandons a seemingly charismatic kid on the playground who turns out to be an egotistical brat.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 10:13 AM on November 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
People can talk about the cops being a gang, fine. But at least the police are a gang that are theoretically beholden to the laws of society. They haven't been, and have developed a culture of impunity over generations. But it's at least possible to talk of ending the drug war and taking the responsibility for investigating cops out of the precinct house as paths to improving how the police do their jobs.
Almost true. There's been an ebb and flow of impunity over generations, with the trend, at least in industrialized democracies, being generally toward less impunity. We all have a responsibility to keep it going in that direction.
And the reason we should throw all the Anarchists off the island is that ultimately anarchism is the same garbage as libertarianism when it comes to running a society. It's an academic ideal. It works as a concept with which to examine ideas in an academic setting. Reality is too complicated to be effectively dealt with by such simplistic concepts.
And back to Pirate's central point: exactly. Anarchists, among themselves, govern by bully-ocracy. Like when the Oakland Holdout got displaced by Qilombo: at least one guy got ambushed and beaten. And there was no recourse. This is part of why Anarchist groups can't get beyond a certain minimal scale: they pretend nobody's in charge, some charismatic people subtly take charge, they become too unsubtle, there's an ugly upheaval and a lot of people leave during it. Rinse and repeat.
So too with their tantrum riots. Sooner or later people get sick of them, realize it's futile and juvenile, and lose interest. Thus there was a spike in Anarchism in the early 1900s, a long lull, a spike in the 60s, a long lull, and a spike now. Soon they'll be abandoned again, as one abandons a seemingly charismatic kid on the playground who turns out to be an egotistical brat.
posted by MeanwhileBackAtTheRanch at 10:13 AM on November 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
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posted by nevercalm at 4:16 AM on November 13, 2014 [16 favorites]