Rarer than hitting for the cycle...
December 4, 2014 7:07 AM Subscribe
Here's a list of baseball players who have stolen second, third and home in the same inning.
Honus Wagner and Ty Cobb both did it four times. Also on Bleacher Report, 10 Things Rarer Than a No-Hitter.
Honus Wagner and Ty Cobb both did it four times. Also on Bleacher Report, 10 Things Rarer Than a No-Hitter.
I wonder how many players stole second, stole third and then were thrown out at home. That would be heartbreaking.
posted by Phreesh at 7:22 AM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Phreesh at 7:22 AM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
Given Ty Cobb's propensity for sliding in spikes first, I'm not surprised he's on the list so many times.
posted by Cash4Lead at 7:28 AM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Cash4Lead at 7:28 AM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
Dang, Honus Wagner and Ty Cobb did it four times. Ty Cobb did it the last time fifteen years after he did it the first time.
Seems having a weird name helps. Dode Paskert, Braggo Roth, Greasy Neale and Kiki Cuyler are all in this club.
posted by vapidave at 7:30 AM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
Seems having a weird name helps. Dode Paskert, Braggo Roth, Greasy Neale and Kiki Cuyler are all in this club.
posted by vapidave at 7:30 AM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
Hah, great timing for this post. Last night at my son's urging I read Honus and Me, which features both Honus Wagner and Ty Cobb.
posted by alms at 7:36 AM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by alms at 7:36 AM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but how many of those guys stole first to start it all off?
posted by Etrigan at 8:12 AM on December 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 8:12 AM on December 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
Hall of Famer Rod Carew!
posted by maryr at 8:15 AM on December 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by maryr at 8:15 AM on December 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
OK I feel stupid, google isn't helping me get a handle of how many folks have actually stolen first base, as Etrigan has piqued my interest. I get that it happens, even as recently as 2011 but I'm curious how often/rate it is.
posted by k5.user at 8:23 AM on December 4, 2014
posted by k5.user at 8:23 AM on December 4, 2014
People reach first on dropped third strikes all the time. Once every few days, probably.
posted by bowbeacon at 8:25 AM on December 4, 2014
posted by bowbeacon at 8:25 AM on December 4, 2014
Jean Segura stole first, from second, in 2013.
posted by aaronetc at 8:31 AM on December 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by aaronetc at 8:31 AM on December 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
If a batter reaches first on a dropped third strike, it's recorded as a strikeout, but the batter isn't out. So it's possible for a pitcher to have an infinite number of strikeouts in an inning. But none have had more than four.
posted by artsandsci at 8:34 AM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by artsandsci at 8:34 AM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Dang, Honus Wagner and Ty Cobb did it four times
This is the professional effect (or actually, the lack of it) in play. Back in the early part of the 20th Century, you didn't make a lot of money playing ball -- and let's not forget that a large portion of the population wasn't allowed to play at all.
So, a lot of people who would have been truly great baseball players never played the game professionally. They were busy working, raising families, etc, or in the case of non-caucasians, simply not allowed to play.* So, the spread of talent between the best players (Ty Cobb, Honer Wagner, Babe Ruth, Joe DiMaggio, etc.) and the worst was huge. The best players would have been in the leagues even if the salaries were a hundred times higher, but the worst players would have been replaced by better ones.
Today, when the absolute minimum salary of a rostered MLB player is $500K and the average is over $3M, if you have the chops to play the game, you go play, rather than go work at some other job. The barley there MLB player in 2014 -- one of the 1200 best players in the nation, mind you -- would have been a superstar in 1920, because at least 1100 of the theoretical best baseball players in the US didn't play the game.
Now, with the NFL, NBA and MLB being the absolute top leagues in their sports, not only are the absolute best Americans playing in them, the not-quite-the-best are getting pushed out by other nationals who are better than them. See the EPL and "Where are all the English players in the English Premier League?"
(Yes, I left the NHL out because, as a much later league, it evolved differently -- NHL players were always paid enough to be attractive to hockey players. The limit on the NHL is "where do lakes freeze enough for kids to learn to skate?")
* Josh Gibson? Cool Papa Bell? Bill Johnson? Satchel Paige? The Foster Brothers? I'll stop.
posted by eriko at 8:34 AM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
This is the professional effect (or actually, the lack of it) in play. Back in the early part of the 20th Century, you didn't make a lot of money playing ball -- and let's not forget that a large portion of the population wasn't allowed to play at all.
So, a lot of people who would have been truly great baseball players never played the game professionally. They were busy working, raising families, etc, or in the case of non-caucasians, simply not allowed to play.* So, the spread of talent between the best players (Ty Cobb, Honer Wagner, Babe Ruth, Joe DiMaggio, etc.) and the worst was huge. The best players would have been in the leagues even if the salaries were a hundred times higher, but the worst players would have been replaced by better ones.
Today, when the absolute minimum salary of a rostered MLB player is $500K and the average is over $3M, if you have the chops to play the game, you go play, rather than go work at some other job. The barley there MLB player in 2014 -- one of the 1200 best players in the nation, mind you -- would have been a superstar in 1920, because at least 1100 of the theoretical best baseball players in the US didn't play the game.
Now, with the NFL, NBA and MLB being the absolute top leagues in their sports, not only are the absolute best Americans playing in them, the not-quite-the-best are getting pushed out by other nationals who are better than them. See the EPL and "Where are all the English players in the English Premier League?"
(Yes, I left the NHL out because, as a much later league, it evolved differently -- NHL players were always paid enough to be attractive to hockey players. The limit on the NHL is "where do lakes freeze enough for kids to learn to skate?")
* Josh Gibson? Cool Papa Bell? Bill Johnson? Satchel Paige? The Foster Brothers? I'll stop.
posted by eriko at 8:34 AM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
I saw Carlos Gomez do this a couple of years ago. But he's not on the list. He walked -- stole second -- stole third -- and then broke for home on the next pitch, but the ball got away from the catcher and the official scorer ruled it a wild pitch, not a SB. Official or not, it was one of the greatest things I've ever seen at a ballgame.
posted by escabeche at 8:42 AM on December 4, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by escabeche at 8:42 AM on December 4, 2014 [4 favorites]
Yeah, but how many of those guys stole first to start it all off?
Nobody!
A dropped third strike is recorded as a strikeout by the pitcher and a strikeout for the batter. The batter reaches first on on either the pitcher's wild pitch, the catcher's passed ball, or an error on the catcher if the catcher throws it badly allowing the batter to reach, or the fielder if they muff the catch and allow the runner to reach. Note that WPs and PBs are battery errors, which are tracked separately than fielding errors, but in effect they're errors. The potential run is earned if it's a wild pitch, otherwise if that batter scores, it's unearned.*
If the catcher throws the batter out at first after the drop, it's still a strikeout but the catcher gets an assist.
This is also how you can get an RBI on a strikeout. Man on third, one out, two strikes. Pitch comes in for strike three, but the catcher mishandles it. The batter runs for first, the runner for home. The catcher recovers the ball and throws to first for the force out of the batter, the runner scores.
Result: Strikeout, Run scored, RBI for the batter and either a wild pitch, passed ball, or error if there was a throwing/catching error. (Rule 9-3, Section 3)
The key is "could the runner have probably scored on a force to first?" If so, the error doesn't negate the RBI. If the error is the only reason the runner on third could have scored, then that runner advances on the error and no RBI is given to the batter.
If a runner on third tries to steal and the pitch is a wild pitch or passed ball, that battery error trumps, so you score on the battery error, not on a stolen base.
Finally: A dropped third strike with a runner on first with less than two outs is just a strikeout and the batter cannot advance. The reason for this rule is to prevent the catcher from "accidentally" dropping the ball then throwing to 2nd or 3rd to get the leading runner. If there's two outs with a runner on first, the batter can try to reach, but the runners have to advance to make room for him to do so.
* And, of course, if there were two outs when this happened, all runs afterwards would be unearned if it was a passed ball or wild pitch -- the inning would have ended, so no runs would have scored afterwards except for the error.
posted by eriko at 9:05 AM on December 4, 2014 [4 favorites]
Nobody!
A dropped third strike is recorded as a strikeout by the pitcher and a strikeout for the batter. The batter reaches first on on either the pitcher's wild pitch, the catcher's passed ball, or an error on the catcher if the catcher throws it badly allowing the batter to reach, or the fielder if they muff the catch and allow the runner to reach. Note that WPs and PBs are battery errors, which are tracked separately than fielding errors, but in effect they're errors. The potential run is earned if it's a wild pitch, otherwise if that batter scores, it's unearned.*
If the catcher throws the batter out at first after the drop, it's still a strikeout but the catcher gets an assist.
This is also how you can get an RBI on a strikeout. Man on third, one out, two strikes. Pitch comes in for strike three, but the catcher mishandles it. The batter runs for first, the runner for home. The catcher recovers the ball and throws to first for the force out of the batter, the runner scores.
Result: Strikeout, Run scored, RBI for the batter and either a wild pitch, passed ball, or error if there was a throwing/catching error. (Rule 9-3, Section 3)
The key is "could the runner have probably scored on a force to first?" If so, the error doesn't negate the RBI. If the error is the only reason the runner on third could have scored, then that runner advances on the error and no RBI is given to the batter.
If a runner on third tries to steal and the pitch is a wild pitch or passed ball, that battery error trumps, so you score on the battery error, not on a stolen base.
Finally: A dropped third strike with a runner on first with less than two outs is just a strikeout and the batter cannot advance. The reason for this rule is to prevent the catcher from "accidentally" dropping the ball then throwing to 2nd or 3rd to get the leading runner. If there's two outs with a runner on first, the batter can try to reach, but the runners have to advance to make room for him to do so.
* And, of course, if there were two outs when this happened, all runs afterwards would be unearned if it was a passed ball or wild pitch -- the inning would have ended, so no runs would have scored afterwards except for the error.
posted by eriko at 9:05 AM on December 4, 2014 [4 favorites]
That Bleacher Report calls stealing 2B - 3B - home as a triple steal, which of course is something else entirely.
posted by Chrysostom at 9:11 AM on December 4, 2014
posted by Chrysostom at 9:11 AM on December 4, 2014
Okay, eriko, now explain the infield fly rule.
posted by notyou at 9:13 AM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by notyou at 9:13 AM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
Now, with the NFL, NBA and MLB being the absolute top leagues in their sports, not only are the absolute best Americans playing in them
Reminds me of a thread on the blue about Usain Bolt and someone asked why there aren't Americans dominating like the Jamaicans. Someone pointed out that if a boy shows that much potential for speed someone is going to ask him if he can catch a football or hit a baseball. The level of athleticism in professional athletes these days is insane.
I still wonder what someone like Babe Ruth could have done with a little discipline and today's conditioning regimens.
posted by Ber at 9:19 AM on December 4, 2014
Reminds me of a thread on the blue about Usain Bolt and someone asked why there aren't Americans dominating like the Jamaicans. Someone pointed out that if a boy shows that much potential for speed someone is going to ask him if he can catch a football or hit a baseball. The level of athleticism in professional athletes these days is insane.
I still wonder what someone like Babe Ruth could have done with a little discipline and today's conditioning regimens.
posted by Ber at 9:19 AM on December 4, 2014
notyou: "Okay, eriko, now explain the infield fly rule."
I was once at a game where I had to explain the infield fly rule to a Chinese national who was visiting my office for a week. It came up in like the 3rd or 4th inning. It took another 3 or 4 innings to explain it and several written diagrams. Also got a lot of help from those sitting near us.
I think the key to finally getting the explanation across was when we asked what would happen if the fielder dropped the ball on purpose. Or maybe he just said, "Yes, yes I understand now" out of politeness or to shut us up. Not sure.
posted by 724A at 9:35 AM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
I was once at a game where I had to explain the infield fly rule to a Chinese national who was visiting my office for a week. It came up in like the 3rd or 4th inning. It took another 3 or 4 innings to explain it and several written diagrams. Also got a lot of help from those sitting near us.
I think the key to finally getting the explanation across was when we asked what would happen if the fielder dropped the ball on purpose. Or maybe he just said, "Yes, yes I understand now" out of politeness or to shut us up. Not sure.
posted by 724A at 9:35 AM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yeah, getting rid of the infield fly rule would absolutely break the game. Otherwise, a perfectly logical thing to do would be to intentionally drop the ball as a defenseman for an easy double play. Hitters would have to adjust massively to avoid this, it would change a lot of things.
posted by zug at 9:55 AM on December 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by zug at 9:55 AM on December 4, 2014 [3 favorites]
Which is apparently what was actually happening before the rule was introduced.
posted by Chrysostom at 10:40 AM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Chrysostom at 10:40 AM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
I saw Carlos Gomez do this a couple of years ago.
Against the Cubs? Or was it the Diamondbacks?
posted by drezdn at 10:43 AM on December 4, 2014
Against the Cubs? Or was it the Diamondbacks?
posted by drezdn at 10:43 AM on December 4, 2014
I've never understood why the infield fly rule is held up as the gold standard for confusing sports stuff. "You see how if you have runners on first and second, and the batter pops it up, the defense would be better off if they just let the ball drop and turned a double play? Doesn't that kinda feel like bullshit to you? Well, the infield-fly rule makes it so they don't do that."
posted by Etrigan at 10:46 AM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Etrigan at 10:46 AM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Which is apparently what was actually happening before the rule was introduced.
This has led me to think that that's often the case for odd-seeming rules.
posted by thelonius at 10:54 AM on December 4, 2014
This has led me to think that that's often the case for odd-seeming rules.
posted by thelonius at 10:54 AM on December 4, 2014
Etrigan: "I've never understood why the infield fly rule is held up as the gold standard for confusing sports stuff. "You see how if you have runners on first and second, and the batter pops it up, the defense would be better off if they just let the ball drop and turned a double play? Doesn't that kinda feel like bullshit to you? Well, the infield-fly rule makes it so they don't do that.""
I agree for the most part. What makes the rule seem a little difficult to grasp is that it is not consistent with the way the rest of the game is played. The goal is to catch the ball. The umpire rarely has discretion as to a call. And also, why not have the batting team penalized with a double play? Their hitter is the one who popped it up. The team in the field still has to execute the double play. If the runners are not sure if the fielder is going to catch it or drop it, they have to make base running choices about how far off the base to go. It makes it more interesting all around.
The list has some notable speedsters and base stealing artists not on it. No Lou Brock. No Ricky Henderson. Yes Jayson Werth? I also love the fact that Pete Rose did it while on the Phillies against the REDS!
posted by 724A at 11:14 AM on December 4, 2014
I agree for the most part. What makes the rule seem a little difficult to grasp is that it is not consistent with the way the rest of the game is played. The goal is to catch the ball. The umpire rarely has discretion as to a call. And also, why not have the batting team penalized with a double play? Their hitter is the one who popped it up. The team in the field still has to execute the double play. If the runners are not sure if the fielder is going to catch it or drop it, they have to make base running choices about how far off the base to go. It makes it more interesting all around.
The list has some notable speedsters and base stealing artists not on it. No Lou Brock. No Ricky Henderson. Yes Jayson Werth? I also love the fact that Pete Rose did it while on the Phillies against the REDS!
posted by 724A at 11:14 AM on December 4, 2014
What is actually sort of amazing is the idea that even with all of the changes in athleticism over the last 100 years, best runners 90 feet to first is still a bang-bang play from short, and 100mph fastball is still pretty much as good as it gets.
Baseball is a great game.
posted by sfts2 at 12:13 PM on December 4, 2014 [4 favorites]
Baseball is a great game.
posted by sfts2 at 12:13 PM on December 4, 2014 [4 favorites]
I asked Dad and he got Ty Cobb he got right away. He struggled with the other and I told him he'd kick himself. He did. God I love the old ball game.
posted by ob1quixote at 5:08 PM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by ob1quixote at 5:08 PM on December 4, 2014 [1 favorite]
Wow, only one guy did it between 1928 and 1969 (Don Kolloway, 6-28-1941). Great post, thanks!
posted by languagehat at 5:10 PM on December 4, 2014
posted by languagehat at 5:10 PM on December 4, 2014
"Okay, eriko, now explain the infield fly rule."
I'll explain it. Runner on first base, runner on second base, perhaps a runner on third base as well but this doesn't matter. An infield pop-up is hit. The umpire yells "infield fly rule in effect, batter is out". Alarmed and not knowing what to do there is a kid between first base and second base and there is an equally alarmed kid between second base and third base and neither knows what to do - the third base coach yells at the kid between third and second to retreat to second base and the first base coach yells at the kid between first base and second base to advance to second base - so you have two baserunners standing on second. The coaches for the fielding team start screaming at whoever has the ball to tag one of the offensive team members who is standing on second base and then one of them gets tagged and the umpire yells "Out". Then the parents in the stands who don't understand the rule start yelling and the coaches come out and the first base coach wonders why they ever got talked into this bullshit in the first place and this being a good parent thing is just resulting in tears and embarassment and bowling is way more fun and has a button you can push that makes beer and nachos arrive.
The net effect of the infield fly rule is that next year everyone plays soccer.
posted by vapidave at 7:10 AM on December 6, 2014 [3 favorites]
I'll explain it. Runner on first base, runner on second base, perhaps a runner on third base as well but this doesn't matter. An infield pop-up is hit. The umpire yells "infield fly rule in effect, batter is out". Alarmed and not knowing what to do there is a kid between first base and second base and there is an equally alarmed kid between second base and third base and neither knows what to do - the third base coach yells at the kid between third and second to retreat to second base and the first base coach yells at the kid between first base and second base to advance to second base - so you have two baserunners standing on second. The coaches for the fielding team start screaming at whoever has the ball to tag one of the offensive team members who is standing on second base and then one of them gets tagged and the umpire yells "Out". Then the parents in the stands who don't understand the rule start yelling and the coaches come out and the first base coach wonders why they ever got talked into this bullshit in the first place and this being a good parent thing is just resulting in tears and embarassment and bowling is way more fun and has a button you can push that makes beer and nachos arrive.
The net effect of the infield fly rule is that next year everyone plays soccer.
posted by vapidave at 7:10 AM on December 6, 2014 [3 favorites]
Okay, eriko, now explain the infield fly rule.
Easy.
First, the rule: If there's a force play available at 3rd base (that is, runners on first and second or bases loaded) and there are less than two outs, if a fair fly ball is hit that can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, then it's an infield fly and the batter is automatically out. All force plays are removed, but the runners may advance at their own peril. They are required to tag up if the ball is caught.
And that's it. Force at third, less than two outs, if it's a popup over the infield, you don't wait for the catch, you call "infield fly" and the batter is automatically out.
Now: Why such a rule?
Without the infield fly rule, such a hit is a double play. Either the runners go, and the infielder catches the ball and gets a runner for not tagging up, or the runners don't go, the infield "drops" it, and then throws for the lead force out. At worst, it's a fielders choice, at best, a double/triple play. The batter's almost certainly out anyway, but the runners are out if the infielder intentionally misses the catch.
So, if the ball is hit over the infield, an umpire will yell "Infield Fly!" If the ball appears it might not be in fair territory, then he gets to yell the great baseball tongue twister, "Infield Fly, If Fair!"
When that happens. If the ball is fair, the batter is out. All forces are removed. The runners may choose to advance at their peril, but they do have to tag up. The batter is out even if the catch is not made. It's scored as a flight to the closest infielder to where the ball drops, and marked as an infield fly as well. I score it as (say it's to the first baseman) IF3.
If the ball is foul, it's not an infield fly, instead, it's a foul ball. Runner are not forced to advance, but may do so at their peril. If the catch is made, the batter is out. If the catch is not made, it's a foul ball, add one strike to the batter unless he's already at two strikes. But since it could be an infield fly, the umpire will make the call to let you know if it drops/is caught fair, the runner is out regardless.
Offical Rules: An infield fly is defined in rule 2.00 (Definition of terms.) The Batter being immediately out is defined in 6.05(e). 6.05 starts with "A batter is out when -" and (e) is "An infield fly is declared."
A thing to remember is if the ball hits the ground, it's treated as any hit in the infield for purposes of being foul or fair. If the ball hits the ground and rolls foul before it passes 1st/3rd base, it's a foul ball, not an infield fly. If the ball hits the ground in foul territory and bounces/rolls into fair territory before it passes 1st/3rd, it would then be an infield fly.
But this is true of any ball in the infield. Until it passes the bases, the definition of a fair ball is a ball that "settles on fair ground" (2.00 again, definition of a Fair Ball.) A ball that hit the ground in foul territory but rolls to fair territory and stops is a fair ball, which is why fielders make damn sure to touch a ball that's bouncing along the line in foul territory. Once they touch it, it's foul, period. They'll occasionally "herd" a ball along the line in fair territory hoping it rolls foul, and one of the best faces in baseball is the infielder who has to pick up that ball once it settles, since the runner has easily made first.
posted by eriko at 11:00 AM on December 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
Easy.
First, the rule: If there's a force play available at 3rd base (that is, runners on first and second or bases loaded) and there are less than two outs, if a fair fly ball is hit that can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort, then it's an infield fly and the batter is automatically out. All force plays are removed, but the runners may advance at their own peril. They are required to tag up if the ball is caught.
And that's it. Force at third, less than two outs, if it's a popup over the infield, you don't wait for the catch, you call "infield fly" and the batter is automatically out.
Now: Why such a rule?
Without the infield fly rule, such a hit is a double play. Either the runners go, and the infielder catches the ball and gets a runner for not tagging up, or the runners don't go, the infield "drops" it, and then throws for the lead force out. At worst, it's a fielders choice, at best, a double/triple play. The batter's almost certainly out anyway, but the runners are out if the infielder intentionally misses the catch.
So, if the ball is hit over the infield, an umpire will yell "Infield Fly!" If the ball appears it might not be in fair territory, then he gets to yell the great baseball tongue twister, "Infield Fly, If Fair!"
When that happens. If the ball is fair, the batter is out. All forces are removed. The runners may choose to advance at their peril, but they do have to tag up. The batter is out even if the catch is not made. It's scored as a flight to the closest infielder to where the ball drops, and marked as an infield fly as well. I score it as (say it's to the first baseman) IF3.
If the ball is foul, it's not an infield fly, instead, it's a foul ball. Runner are not forced to advance, but may do so at their peril. If the catch is made, the batter is out. If the catch is not made, it's a foul ball, add one strike to the batter unless he's already at two strikes. But since it could be an infield fly, the umpire will make the call to let you know if it drops/is caught fair, the runner is out regardless.
Offical Rules: An infield fly is defined in rule 2.00 (Definition of terms.) The Batter being immediately out is defined in 6.05(e). 6.05 starts with "A batter is out when -" and (e) is "An infield fly is declared."
A thing to remember is if the ball hits the ground, it's treated as any hit in the infield for purposes of being foul or fair. If the ball hits the ground and rolls foul before it passes 1st/3rd base, it's a foul ball, not an infield fly. If the ball hits the ground in foul territory and bounces/rolls into fair territory before it passes 1st/3rd, it would then be an infield fly.
But this is true of any ball in the infield. Until it passes the bases, the definition of a fair ball is a ball that "settles on fair ground" (2.00 again, definition of a Fair Ball.) A ball that hit the ground in foul territory but rolls to fair territory and stops is a fair ball, which is why fielders make damn sure to touch a ball that's bouncing along the line in foul territory. Once they touch it, it's foul, period. They'll occasionally "herd" a ball along the line in fair territory hoping it rolls foul, and one of the best faces in baseball is the infielder who has to pick up that ball once it settles, since the runner has easily made first.
posted by eriko at 11:00 AM on December 6, 2014 [2 favorites]
What is actually sort of amazing is the idea that even with all of the changes in athleticism over the last 100 years, best runners 90 feet to first is still a bang-bang play from short, and 100mph fastball is still pretty much as good as it gets.
Yeah. We seem to have hit the limit of human play. But yes, even while runners have gotten faster, fielders have too, both in the ability to get to the ball and the ability to get it to first, and they're throwing the ball faster as well.
And, except for pitchers, there's the limit of "you have to be at least an acceptable hitter" to make MLB. You have to be one hell of a fielder to stay in the bigs if you're hitting below the Mendoza Line. Of course, ideally, you have someone like Ryne Sandburg or Yadier Molina* who can both anchor down a position that needs hard defensive skills *and* hit well. But guys like that are rare.
* Said it before, I'll say it again. By the only measure that really counts (wins) Yadier Molina is the most valuable player playing today, and is quite possibly the most valuable player in the history of the game. He knows batters, he knows his pitchers, his pitch calling is impeccable (even when it annoys the hell out of the pitching coaches and managers) and his ability to frame catches gives him at least 6 strikes a game he wouldn't have had. He's turned into a wall behind the plate**, and his pitchers call him the vacuum cleaner, because he just sucks the balls in. He started as a light hitter but has only gotten better. He's clearly, without a doubt, the best catcher the game has ever seen.
It took a couple of years, but the Cardinals tell all their pitchers now to just trust Molina when he calls for a pitch, even if it's the last thing you'd expect to be called.
As a Cubs fan, I hate, hate, hate that he plays for the Cards, but I have nothing but admiration for him. It may not be as flashy as Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb, but when you watch him play, that's what you are looking at -- possibly the best player of his era. Unless he does something frankly criminal, he's a first ballot hall of famer for sure.
** Famously, in extended spring training while he was still playing AAA ball, he let a ball go through his legs, which is the great sin of a catcher. He ran to the backstop, grabbed, it, and ran back to try to make the play only to find his coach, Dave Ricketts, sitting on home plate in a golf cart. He took Molina out of the game (on the golf cart, no less) and drove him to the batting cages, where he spent hours hitting hundreds of ground balls at him to hone his ball blocking/catching skills.
It worked. Mike Matheny, then catcher for the Cardinals, watch Molina in his first spring training outing with the club and told his wife "I saw the kid that's going to steal my job." Matheny is now the manager of the Cardinals, and yep, Molina stole his job -- and with his mental skills and observational skills, I wouldn't be surprised if Molina eventually steals Matheny's job again.
posted by eriko at 11:20 AM on December 6, 2014 [4 favorites]
Yeah. We seem to have hit the limit of human play. But yes, even while runners have gotten faster, fielders have too, both in the ability to get to the ball and the ability to get it to first, and they're throwing the ball faster as well.
And, except for pitchers, there's the limit of "you have to be at least an acceptable hitter" to make MLB. You have to be one hell of a fielder to stay in the bigs if you're hitting below the Mendoza Line. Of course, ideally, you have someone like Ryne Sandburg or Yadier Molina* who can both anchor down a position that needs hard defensive skills *and* hit well. But guys like that are rare.
* Said it before, I'll say it again. By the only measure that really counts (wins) Yadier Molina is the most valuable player playing today, and is quite possibly the most valuable player in the history of the game. He knows batters, he knows his pitchers, his pitch calling is impeccable (even when it annoys the hell out of the pitching coaches and managers) and his ability to frame catches gives him at least 6 strikes a game he wouldn't have had. He's turned into a wall behind the plate**, and his pitchers call him the vacuum cleaner, because he just sucks the balls in. He started as a light hitter but has only gotten better. He's clearly, without a doubt, the best catcher the game has ever seen.
It took a couple of years, but the Cardinals tell all their pitchers now to just trust Molina when he calls for a pitch, even if it's the last thing you'd expect to be called.
As a Cubs fan, I hate, hate, hate that he plays for the Cards, but I have nothing but admiration for him. It may not be as flashy as Babe Ruth or Ty Cobb, but when you watch him play, that's what you are looking at -- possibly the best player of his era. Unless he does something frankly criminal, he's a first ballot hall of famer for sure.
** Famously, in extended spring training while he was still playing AAA ball, he let a ball go through his legs, which is the great sin of a catcher. He ran to the backstop, grabbed, it, and ran back to try to make the play only to find his coach, Dave Ricketts, sitting on home plate in a golf cart. He took Molina out of the game (on the golf cart, no less) and drove him to the batting cages, where he spent hours hitting hundreds of ground balls at him to hone his ball blocking/catching skills.
It worked. Mike Matheny, then catcher for the Cardinals, watch Molina in his first spring training outing with the club and told his wife "I saw the kid that's going to steal my job." Matheny is now the manager of the Cardinals, and yep, Molina stole his job -- and with his mental skills and observational skills, I wouldn't be surprised if Molina eventually steals Matheny's job again.
posted by eriko at 11:20 AM on December 6, 2014 [4 favorites]
« Older Aesop Waits - Tom Shall Pass | There are no legitimate authorities anywhere. Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
posted by thelonius at 7:13 AM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]