The Nicaragua Canal
January 20, 2015 11:50 AM Subscribe
Land of opportunity – and fear – along route of Nicaragua’s giant new canal "In an era of breathtaking, earth-changing engineering projects, this has been billed as the biggest of them all. Three times as long and almost twice as deep as its rival in Panama, Nicaragua’s channel will require the removal of more than 4.5bn cubic metres of earth – enough to bury the entire island of Manhattan up to the 21st floor of the Empire State Building. It will also swamp the economy, society and environment of one of Latin America’s poorest and most sparsely populated countries. Senior officials compare the scale of change to that brought by the arrival of the first colonisers."
By the time this project gets going, you'll see a sudden resurgence of mysterious funding for Contras. There's a lot of money and political power at stake, and nobody with anything to lose gives a solitary fuck about the Nicaraguan people. I hope I'm wrong, but I worry about them. The country and people are amazing, though, and I hope they can pull this off. It was my favorite country to visit in Central America by a long way.
posted by empath at 12:12 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by empath at 12:12 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
The CIA absolutely has to be involved in this somehow. How could they not be? A Chinese canal in Nicaragua surely threatens American economic interests.
posted by dilaudid at 12:16 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by dilaudid at 12:16 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Man, I'm all for audacious engineering projects, but why can't we get Neal Stephenson's Tall Tower instead of... this?
Coast-to-coast fences on either side of the concrete waterway will also cut through the Mesoamerican biological corridor – a protected route for threatened species to migrate up and down Central America that has been supported by Mexico, seven Central American countries and the World Bank. Engineers say they will build two eco-bridges over the canal, but environmentalists say this will not be enough to save the wildlife passageway.posted by books for weapons at 12:18 PM on January 20, 2015 [6 favorites]
“If the canal is built, then the Mesoamerican biological corridor is finished,” says Victor Campos, director of the Humboldt Centre.
Ometepe, by the way is absolutely amazing. It's like being in an Indiana Jones movie. Just nothing but monkeys and jungle. Quiet and peaceful. It's very easy to find yourself in a place where you'd have no idea the rest of civilization existed. Here's some pictures from when I was there. (edit: The sign reads: "Long Live the Revolution, no to the right-wing scumbags")
I wonder why they're not using Rio San Juan for the eastern half of it?
posted by empath at 12:21 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I wonder why they're not using Rio San Juan for the eastern half of it?
posted by empath at 12:21 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Because there's more money in it for the various local and international elites to slice up Central America than there is to build a really tall building.
posted by Noms_Tiem at 12:22 PM on January 20, 2015
posted by Noms_Tiem at 12:22 PM on January 20, 2015
What's the carbon cost of this project?
posted by No Robots at 12:32 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by No Robots at 12:32 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Conservationists say the canal will disrupt the lake ecosystem with pollution, traffic, noise, salinity, higher levels of torpidity and oxygen depletion.
Heh.
posted by agentofselection at 12:37 PM on January 20, 2015
Heh.
posted by agentofselection at 12:37 PM on January 20, 2015
Another notch on the Communist Chinese gun handle - another way for China to use money gained from American outsourced jobs to infiltrate and ultimately, dominate - all while the vast majority of Chinese continue to suffer.
posted by Vibrissae at 12:37 PM on January 20, 2015
posted by Vibrissae at 12:37 PM on January 20, 2015
Yeah, that worked out just swell for Panama and Egypt, no poverty to be seen there.
The difference in wealth between Panama City and Managua, Tegucigalpa or Guatemala City is unbelievable. I'd be happy to live in Panama City. You couldn't get me to spend a night in Guatemala City or Managua if I didn't have to. That prosperity doesn't really make it out to the countryside, mind, but even there, Panama is far better off than Guatemala or Nicaragua. Panama City has slums to be sure, but it's nothing like what you see in the rest of Central America. You don't see people in Panama living off of garbage dumps like they do in Nicaragua.
It's easy to talk about preserving nature and so on from here when you're not literally picking through trash to survive. It's a different situation for them. Nicaraguans work as hard and are as educated as anyone I've ever met and they basically have nothing to show for it. If they can pull off this canal, more power to them.
posted by empath at 12:38 PM on January 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
The difference in wealth between Panama City and Managua, Tegucigalpa or Guatemala City is unbelievable. I'd be happy to live in Panama City. You couldn't get me to spend a night in Guatemala City or Managua if I didn't have to. That prosperity doesn't really make it out to the countryside, mind, but even there, Panama is far better off than Guatemala or Nicaragua. Panama City has slums to be sure, but it's nothing like what you see in the rest of Central America. You don't see people in Panama living off of garbage dumps like they do in Nicaragua.
It's easy to talk about preserving nature and so on from here when you're not literally picking through trash to survive. It's a different situation for them. Nicaraguans work as hard and are as educated as anyone I've ever met and they basically have nothing to show for it. If they can pull off this canal, more power to them.
posted by empath at 12:38 PM on January 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
It's easy to talk about preserving nature and so on from here when you're not literally picking through trash to survive.
But what about global warming? Won't the whole of Central America be under water in 50 years?
posted by No Robots at 12:42 PM on January 20, 2015
But what about global warming? Won't the whole of Central America be under water in 50 years?
posted by No Robots at 12:42 PM on January 20, 2015
Given that Central America is mostly mountains, no.
posted by empath at 12:44 PM on January 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by empath at 12:44 PM on January 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
Please explain at what level of wealth (if any) wanton environmental destruction switches from being an acceptable way of raising a standard of living and becomes something to be discouraged (or, dare I say it, even deplored).
posted by entropicamericana at 12:44 PM on January 20, 2015
posted by entropicamericana at 12:44 PM on January 20, 2015
It struck me that in the 1800s, an American millionaire, Cornelius Vanderbilt, possibly with hidden backing of the US, got a contract to build a canal across Nicaragua. Now we have the Chinese billionaire Wang Jing, possibly with hidden backing of China, attempting it once again.
As an aside, the Panama canal is about to double its capacity next year.
posted by eye of newt at 12:45 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
As an aside, the Panama canal is about to double its capacity next year.
posted by eye of newt at 12:45 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Given that Central America is mostly mountains, no.
Whew! Let 'er rip!
posted by No Robots at 12:46 PM on January 20, 2015
Whew! Let 'er rip!
posted by No Robots at 12:46 PM on January 20, 2015
Please explain at what level of wealth (if any) wanton environmental destruction switches from being an acceptable way of raising a standard of living and becomes something to be discouraged (or, dare I say it, even deplored).
It's not as if poverty doesn't cause its own environmental issues. They don't have proper sanitation, they don't have clean water, they just dump all their trash on the side of the road, they clear cut forests for farmland, they dump raw sewage and farm run-off into the lake. Those are the sorts of environmental impacts that affluence can help fix.
posted by empath at 12:48 PM on January 20, 2015
It's not as if poverty doesn't cause its own environmental issues. They don't have proper sanitation, they don't have clean water, they just dump all their trash on the side of the road, they clear cut forests for farmland, they dump raw sewage and farm run-off into the lake. Those are the sorts of environmental impacts that affluence can help fix.
posted by empath at 12:48 PM on January 20, 2015
I mean, really, what do you want these people to do? Work in sweatshops and factories? Die from farming sugar-cane? Not everyone on earth can earn a living as tour guides and organic farmers.
posted by empath at 12:50 PM on January 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by empath at 12:50 PM on January 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
Please explain at what level of wealth (if any) wanton environmental destruction switches from being an acceptable way of raising a standard of living and becomes something to be discouraged (or, dare I say it, even deplored).
Please explain what moral, economic, or environmental high ground anyone in the developed world occupies to be able to tell one of the poorest countries in the Western hemisphere that they can't have their cookies because they (not you, conveniently) have to protect the biosphere.
posted by dry white toast at 12:55 PM on January 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
Please explain what moral, economic, or environmental high ground anyone in the developed world occupies to be able to tell one of the poorest countries in the Western hemisphere that they can't have their cookies because they (not you, conveniently) have to protect the biosphere.
posted by dry white toast at 12:55 PM on January 20, 2015 [5 favorites]
Given that Central America is mostly mountains, no.
Whew! Let 'er rip!
Yeah but a lot of them are full of angry lava.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:55 PM on January 20, 2015
Whew! Let 'er rip!
Yeah but a lot of them are full of angry lava.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:55 PM on January 20, 2015
Panama has done quite well economically and the canal has been a main reason. Since the US has relinquished control (2000) their economy has expanded wildly. (I worry it is overshooting) Just since 2005, they have built 44 buildings over 500 ft. tall in the capital and 20 of these are over 650 ft and since 2010. This is the lust Nicaragua has.
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:57 PM on January 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by dances_with_sneetches at 12:57 PM on January 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Please explain what moral, economic, or environmental high ground anyone in the developed world occupies to be able to tell one of the poorest countries in the Western hemisphere that they can't have their cookies because they (not you, conveniently) have to protect the biosphere.
Just don't moan and groan about us ripping up the boreal forest here in Alberta. We don't want to go back to Bennett buggies and funny money.
posted by No Robots at 12:59 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Just don't moan and groan about us ripping up the boreal forest here in Alberta. We don't want to go back to Bennett buggies and funny money.
posted by No Robots at 12:59 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I stayed in Casco Viejo when I was in Panama City and there was construction all over the place, luxury condos going up every where you looked. Everywhere else in Central America has construction all over the place, too, but it ain't luxury condos.
posted by empath at 1:00 PM on January 20, 2015
posted by empath at 1:00 PM on January 20, 2015
“If the canal is built, then the Mesoamerican biological corridor is finished,” says Victor Campos, director of the Humboldt Centre.
posted by books for weapons
Wouldn't the other canal just down the road already have done this?
posted by Keith Talent at 1:25 PM on January 20, 2015
Wouldn't the other canal just down the road already have done this?
The mesoamerican biodiversity hotspot extends up to Panama.
posted by dhruva at 1:28 PM on January 20, 2015
The mesoamerican biodiversity hotspot extends up to Panama.
posted by dhruva at 1:28 PM on January 20, 2015
The Nicaraguan government, by contrast, hopes the canal can finally achieve the Sandinista dream of eradicating poverty.
The problem here is that what is currently constraining the Panama Canal isn't the canal itself, it's the locks. Currently, they're 110'x1050'x41', and because there needs to be clearance on the sides, you're limited to about 950' length overall, 106' in beam and 39.5' draft. Longer and wider ships have locked through, but they take much longer to do so.
Which leads to problem #2 -- there are just too many ships wanting to lock through.
Panama is busy fixing this with the new locks -- sets of three on each side. These are sized 1401'x180'x60'. This will allow vastly more ships through (there will be 5 locks, three large and two smaller, on each side) and vastly larger ships. There are ships that won't fit, including a couple of cruise ships that are too tall to fit under the Bridge of the Americas, but most will be able to fit, and a lot more will be built to the new Panamax, able to carry vastly more cargo -- 12,000 TEU* vs. 5,000, and 120,000 DWT vs. 65,000 DWT.
So, at least three years before the Nicaraguan Canal can possibly open, the capacity on the Panama Canal is going to double in individual ship volume and at least double in the number of ships it can handle. So, while *right now* the bigger Nicaraguan Canal would be really handy, when it actually finishes, will it be needed at all? Or will it just drive canal tarrifs so low that both Panama and Nicaragua suffer?
What I don't know is if the new locks will let the Nimitz and Ford class CVNs transit. At the waterline, they're 134', but they flare out to the flight deck, which is 257'. It may be that they'd be able to be in a full lock, but not an empty one, and thus wouldn't be able to transit. The America class LHAs are also constrained by the current locks, but they'll clearly be able to transit via the new locks.
* TEU = "Twenty Foot Equivalent Unit. One 20' standard cargo container is 1 TEU, a 30' one is 1.5 TEU, and so on. Nowadays, the most common contain is the 40', which is 2 TEU or 1 FEU.
posted by eriko at 1:41 PM on January 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
The problem here is that what is currently constraining the Panama Canal isn't the canal itself, it's the locks. Currently, they're 110'x1050'x41', and because there needs to be clearance on the sides, you're limited to about 950' length overall, 106' in beam and 39.5' draft. Longer and wider ships have locked through, but they take much longer to do so.
Which leads to problem #2 -- there are just too many ships wanting to lock through.
Panama is busy fixing this with the new locks -- sets of three on each side. These are sized 1401'x180'x60'. This will allow vastly more ships through (there will be 5 locks, three large and two smaller, on each side) and vastly larger ships. There are ships that won't fit, including a couple of cruise ships that are too tall to fit under the Bridge of the Americas, but most will be able to fit, and a lot more will be built to the new Panamax, able to carry vastly more cargo -- 12,000 TEU* vs. 5,000, and 120,000 DWT vs. 65,000 DWT.
So, at least three years before the Nicaraguan Canal can possibly open, the capacity on the Panama Canal is going to double in individual ship volume and at least double in the number of ships it can handle. So, while *right now* the bigger Nicaraguan Canal would be really handy, when it actually finishes, will it be needed at all? Or will it just drive canal tarrifs so low that both Panama and Nicaragua suffer?
What I don't know is if the new locks will let the Nimitz and Ford class CVNs transit. At the waterline, they're 134', but they flare out to the flight deck, which is 257'. It may be that they'd be able to be in a full lock, but not an empty one, and thus wouldn't be able to transit. The America class LHAs are also constrained by the current locks, but they'll clearly be able to transit via the new locks.
* TEU = "Twenty Foot Equivalent Unit. One 20' standard cargo container is 1 TEU, a 30' one is 1.5 TEU, and so on. Nowadays, the most common contain is the 40', which is 2 TEU or 1 FEU.
posted by eriko at 1:41 PM on January 20, 2015 [10 favorites]
Vibrissae: "another way for China to use money gained from American outsourced jobs "
You know, I just want to put a pause to discussing first-world outrage over third-worlders' attempt to escape poverty to point out how paranoid and insular this comment is. Do you really think that China's money mostly originates in "American outsourced jobs"?
posted by signal at 1:42 PM on January 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
You know, I just want to put a pause to discussing first-world outrage over third-worlders' attempt to escape poverty to point out how paranoid and insular this comment is. Do you really think that China's money mostly originates in "American outsourced jobs"?
posted by signal at 1:42 PM on January 20, 2015 [9 favorites]
This would be a huge environmental disaster but I doubt it will really happen. It would be extraordinarily expensive and there is not really an economic need for it, besides Ortega's hopes of cashing in personally, and to achieve that, actually building it may not be necessary.
posted by knoyers at 1:42 PM on January 20, 2015
posted by knoyers at 1:42 PM on January 20, 2015
empath:
Speaking of Ometepe, pictures from when we visited.
Also: long time lurker, first time poster!
Edit: added a link to empath's comment
posted by sarcas at 2:00 PM on January 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
I wonder why they're not using Rio San Juan for the eastern half of it?The Rio San Juan quite quickly ends up going through a large bioreserve, and I think the government is wary of upsetting that. I think I remember from my time in Nicaragua (like you, I visited Ometepe which is lovely) that tourism is the second largest industry in the country.
Speaking of Ometepe, pictures from when we visited.
Also: long time lurker, first time poster!
Edit: added a link to empath's comment
posted by sarcas at 2:00 PM on January 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Or will it just drive canal tarrifs so low that both Panama and Nicaragua suffer?
I don't think a drop in canal tolls will hurt either country, particularly, as long as cheaper tolls = more ships passing through the canals. There are a whole lot of services around shipping and banking that help the economy.
posted by empath at 2:04 PM on January 20, 2015
I don't think a drop in canal tolls will hurt either country, particularly, as long as cheaper tolls = more ships passing through the canals. There are a whole lot of services around shipping and banking that help the economy.
posted by empath at 2:04 PM on January 20, 2015
Just to put things into perspective, the Chinese have built longer canals in the past - the Grand Canal, stretching from Beijing to Hangzhou, is several times longer and was built more than 1500 years ago, with parts of it dating back about 2500 years.
posted by sour cream at 2:08 PM on January 20, 2015
posted by sour cream at 2:08 PM on January 20, 2015
Shows how out-of-touch I am. I didn't even know the Sandanistas had made a comeback (and with Daniel Ortega still in charge? When I was writing song parodies for a radio comedy service in 1990, I penned a song about Ortega's electoral loss to the tune of "Copacabana"... "How are you coping/Daniel Ortega/The saddest cat since Noriega... So you beat the Contras/But people still don't want ya/So Ortega/Go take-a hike")
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:09 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by oneswellfoop at 2:09 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
The article doesn't say what the price tag is, but elsewhere I find $50 billion. Sounds like a lot, right? That's about what we paid for four months of the Iraq war around 2008.
posted by George_Spiggott at 2:23 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by George_Spiggott at 2:23 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Just to put things into perspective, the Chinese have built longer canals in the past - the Grand Canal, stretching from Beijing to Hangzhou, is several times longer
It isn't the length of a canal that makes it particularly difficult (rather length makes it time-consuming), but depth and the terrain it passes through. Not that the Chinese Grand Canal wasn't a marvelous feat of engineering given when it was constructed, but you can't really compare them simply by looking at length.
posted by Justinian at 2:28 PM on January 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
It isn't the length of a canal that makes it particularly difficult (rather length makes it time-consuming), but depth and the terrain it passes through. Not that the Chinese Grand Canal wasn't a marvelous feat of engineering given when it was constructed, but you can't really compare them simply by looking at length.
posted by Justinian at 2:28 PM on January 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
For comparison, the proposed Nicaraguan canal would be a minimum of 90 feet deep along the entire route with a width of anywhere from 750 to 1800 feet. The Chinese canal's depth is as shallow as 2 feet deep up to about 15 feet.
You simply cannot compare a 2 foot deep canal with a 90 foot deep and 1500 foot wide canal no matter how long the 2 foot deep canal is. Not to mention all the mountains and crap the Nicaraguan canal has to contend with.
posted by Justinian at 2:33 PM on January 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
You simply cannot compare a 2 foot deep canal with a 90 foot deep and 1500 foot wide canal no matter how long the 2 foot deep canal is. Not to mention all the mountains and crap the Nicaraguan canal has to contend with.
posted by Justinian at 2:33 PM on January 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
How much water will they have to flush out of the lakes to hoick each ship over the mountains? What happens if the ecosystem becomes so damaged that there isn't rainfall to cover the demand? Look at what's happening in Brazil right now.
posted by George_Spiggott at 2:42 PM on January 20, 2015
posted by George_Spiggott at 2:42 PM on January 20, 2015
The article doesn't say what the price tag is, but elsewhere I find $50 billion. Sounds like a lot, right? That's about what we paid for four months of the Iraq war around 2008.
Wow. $50B.
For that kind of money, in America we could build a whole 50 miles of new freeway.
posted by ocschwar at 2:45 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Wow. $50B.
For that kind of money, in America we could build a whole 50 miles of new freeway.
posted by ocschwar at 2:45 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Big Dig in Boston was $188M/mi and that's about the highest. Total for new freeway including mitigation and stuff like that generally runs $10-20M/mi, or a couple of orders of magnitude lower than $1BN.
That said, I don't actually believe the $50/BN Nicaragua canal number, not by a factor of two or three at least.
posted by George_Spiggott at 2:54 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
That said, I don't actually believe the $50/BN Nicaragua canal number, not by a factor of two or three at least.
posted by George_Spiggott at 2:54 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
It cost about $7 billion to bring metro out to the Dulles Airport from DC.
posted by empath at 3:03 PM on January 20, 2015
posted by empath at 3:03 PM on January 20, 2015
The article doesn't say what the price tag is, but elsewhere I find $50 billion. Sounds like a lot, right? That's about what we paid for four months of the Iraq war around 2008.
That might be the preliminary estimate, but it's got to be extremely conservative. (It's probably the number they're using to sucker investors.) Once they start work costs will balloon, and the longer the work lasts the larger that balloon will get.
I wonder if this Wang Jing guy really has the fifty billion lined up, or if he's going forward on dreams and the hope that more investors will jump onboard when the canal project gathers some momentum.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:11 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
That might be the preliminary estimate, but it's got to be extremely conservative. (It's probably the number they're using to sucker investors.) Once they start work costs will balloon, and the longer the work lasts the larger that balloon will get.
I wonder if this Wang Jing guy really has the fifty billion lined up, or if he's going forward on dreams and the hope that more investors will jump onboard when the canal project gathers some momentum.
posted by Kevin Street at 3:11 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
The article doesn't say what the price tag is, but elsewhere I find $50 billion. Sounds like a lot, right? That's about what we paid for four months of the Iraq war around 2008.
Yeah, but consider what we got in return for that $50 billion!
posted by indubitable at 3:20 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, but consider what we got in return for that $50 billion!
posted by indubitable at 3:20 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Interesting that Nicaragua comes in as the 8th happiest country in the world - despite being the 2nd poorest country in the Americas. I don't know exactly what the people there are getting right - but they don't sound like they need a canal to improve their lot.
posted by rongorongo at 3:24 PM on January 20, 2015
posted by rongorongo at 3:24 PM on January 20, 2015
I loved Nicaragua, and they're lovely, joyfull people in general, but poverty is poverty. They don't have food security, safety, sanitation, quality medical care, and on and on. Yes, despite all of that they have a great outlook on life, but imagine how happy they'd be if they had, I dunno, potable water.
posted by empath at 4:01 PM on January 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by empath at 4:01 PM on January 20, 2015 [2 favorites]
Augar a cinder red Nicaragua doesn't have quite the same ring to it.
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:22 PM on January 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 4:22 PM on January 20, 2015 [3 favorites]
Interesting that Nicaragua comes in as the 8th happiest country in the world - despite being the 2nd poorest country in the Americas. I don't know exactly what the people there are getting right - but they don't sound like they need a canal to improve their lot
Infant mortality, literacy etc are probably better metrics I think. Happiness as a metric is flirting very close to "simple, happy people" cliches that have a storied history in racist and colonial discourse.
posted by smoke at 5:27 PM on January 20, 2015 [4 favorites]
In China, Projects to Make Great Wall Feel Small - "Despite economic choppiness, the country that built the Great Wall is attaining new superlatives in bridges, tunnels, rail links and other projects of immense size — and expense."
posted by kliuless at 5:38 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
“For China, a lot of this is about building a national identity. Mega-projects are suited for that,” said Bent Flyvbjerg, an authority on mega-projects who teaches at Oxford University. “It’s a lighthouse for all to see what the Chinese nation can do.”108 Giant Chinese Infrastructure Projects That Are Reshaping The World
It is the type of engineering expertise the government wants its state-owned enterprises to export — and that is already happening. Boston is buying subway cars from China. Argentina, Pakistan and Russia have asked China to upgrade their infrastructure. Last month, Chinese construction teams began work on an ambitious $50 billion canal across Nicaragua that could some day rival the Panama Canal.
“They have the idea that they’re going to be doing infrastructure for the rest of the world,” said Mr. Huang at the Carnegie Institute.
In doing so, China is pushing the boundaries of infrastructure-building, with ever bolder proposals. The Dalian tunnel looks small compared with the latest idea to build an “international railway” that would link China to the United States by burrowing under the Bering Strait and creating a tunnel between Russia and Alaska.
posted by kliuless at 5:38 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
but imagine how happy they'd be if they had, I dunno, potable water.
Yeah - I think the people at the New Economics Explain their Happy Planet Index as an efficiency measure: the relationship between the wellbeing of a people and the amount of resources they use. The reason why a country might score highly are quite complicated - and they do not at all mean that the place is a land of milk and honey.
posted by rongorongo at 5:41 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah - I think the people at the New Economics Explain their Happy Planet Index as an efficiency measure: the relationship between the wellbeing of a people and the amount of resources they use. The reason why a country might score highly are quite complicated - and they do not at all mean that the place is a land of milk and honey.
posted by rongorongo at 5:41 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
...two large murals in Rivas town square. One shows the first meeting between Spanish colonisers and an indigenous chieftain.... The other shows residents fighting a mercenary force led by US adventurer William Walker
Wow. I really wish they'd included an image of that mural (apparently their photo of the first is the only one online). Still, I couldn't help but snicker and think of Pawnee City Hall....
Do you really think that China's money mostly originates in "American outsourced jobs"?
The Chinese trade surplus with the US is usually *larger* than their national trade surplus, so it's not that far off, actually. It's not all "outsourced" to be sure, but the imported Chinese goods at the big box stores do tell a bit of a tale. We are their largest trading partner, and they are our second largest, with a substantial trade deficit which is equivalent to the total trade deficit of the US with Canada, Mexico, Japan, Germany, the UK, and South Korea combined. That's a lot of yuan.
What I don't know is if the new locks will let the Nimitz and Ford class CVNs transit.
Some discussion at Contemporary Issues in Geography suggests ... maybe, but it probably doesn't matter. We survived pretty much the entire Cold War without the ability to transit a carrier, and having it in 1941 did not prevent Pearl Harbor. There's also the deployment tempo reduction to two active, on-station carrier battle groups, which speaks to the decline in strategic importance (regardless of their occasional utility in regional wars). Finally, I would add that our strategic competition with China is real, but largely pacific (as well as Pacific!). In fact, I can see ways in which this Nicaraguan canal would be a plus for American interests, with shipping/port interests becoming entangled in the Nicaraguan economy.
a storied history in racist and colonial discourse.
Well, one Happiness metric is issued by the UN, and the one that was cited is from the New Economic Foundation, which I'm not sure is exactly carrying water for post-colonialism. In any case the prior holder of the "happiest" title was Denmark.
Or will it just drive canal tarrifs so low that both Panama and Nicaragua suffer?
If you look at the not-so-illustrious history of the canal network crisscrossing the Eastern US, this was often a factor (although it was mostly competition from the new thing, the railroad, that did most of them in). When you consider that a modest toll increase (2-5%) for Suez means shippers start discussing going around the Cape of Good Hope, this is clearly a business of margins.
posted by dhartung at 5:49 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Wow. I really wish they'd included an image of that mural (apparently their photo of the first is the only one online). Still, I couldn't help but snicker and think of Pawnee City Hall....
Do you really think that China's money mostly originates in "American outsourced jobs"?
The Chinese trade surplus with the US is usually *larger* than their national trade surplus, so it's not that far off, actually. It's not all "outsourced" to be sure, but the imported Chinese goods at the big box stores do tell a bit of a tale. We are their largest trading partner, and they are our second largest, with a substantial trade deficit which is equivalent to the total trade deficit of the US with Canada, Mexico, Japan, Germany, the UK, and South Korea combined. That's a lot of yuan.
What I don't know is if the new locks will let the Nimitz and Ford class CVNs transit.
Some discussion at Contemporary Issues in Geography suggests ... maybe, but it probably doesn't matter. We survived pretty much the entire Cold War without the ability to transit a carrier, and having it in 1941 did not prevent Pearl Harbor. There's also the deployment tempo reduction to two active, on-station carrier battle groups, which speaks to the decline in strategic importance (regardless of their occasional utility in regional wars). Finally, I would add that our strategic competition with China is real, but largely pacific (as well as Pacific!). In fact, I can see ways in which this Nicaraguan canal would be a plus for American interests, with shipping/port interests becoming entangled in the Nicaraguan economy.
a storied history in racist and colonial discourse.
Well, one Happiness metric is issued by the UN, and the one that was cited is from the New Economic Foundation, which I'm not sure is exactly carrying water for post-colonialism. In any case the prior holder of the "happiest" title was Denmark.
Or will it just drive canal tarrifs so low that both Panama and Nicaragua suffer?
If you look at the not-so-illustrious history of the canal network crisscrossing the Eastern US, this was often a factor (although it was mostly competition from the new thing, the railroad, that did most of them in). When you consider that a modest toll increase (2-5%) for Suez means shippers start discussing going around the Cape of Good Hope, this is clearly a business of margins.
posted by dhartung at 5:49 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
Wow. $50B.
For that kind of money, in America we could build a whole 50 miles of new freeway.
The "Subway to Sea" Purple Line extension, under some of the most expensive and busiest parts of Los Angeles, is expected to cost less than $1B per mile. At least the first 5 miles anyway.
posted by sideshow at 6:46 PM on January 20, 2015
For that kind of money, in America we could build a whole 50 miles of new freeway.
The "Subway to Sea" Purple Line extension, under some of the most expensive and busiest parts of Los Angeles, is expected to cost less than $1B per mile. At least the first 5 miles anyway.
posted by sideshow at 6:46 PM on January 20, 2015
The "Subway to Sea" Purple Line extension, under some of the most expensive and busiest parts of Los Angeles, is expected to cost less than $1B per mile. At least the first 5 miles anyway.
Yup. No surprise.
Track is way the hell cheaper than freeway beds.
I was not casting aspersions at our costs for construction labor.
I was casting aspersions at our tendency to throw insane amounts of money at the most expensive and quickest-wearing form of transportation known to man.
posted by ocschwar at 7:31 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
What I don't know is if the new locks will let the Nimitz and Ford class CVNs transit.
I'd be interested to see how long after the new canal opens that the Liaoning or one of it's sucessors goes through to the Atlantic.
posted by Zedcaster at 7:56 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd be interested to see how long after the new canal opens that the Liaoning or one of it's sucessors goes through to the Atlantic.
posted by Zedcaster at 7:56 PM on January 20, 2015 [1 favorite]
signal Do you really think that China's money mostly originates in "American outsourced jobs"?
No, And I didn't even make the claim "mostly" - you did. And your claims about "insular" and "paranoid" mostly applies to the Chinese government; it's corrupt business class, and it's corrupt military .
The History of China is a history of a nation controlled *always* form the center, for the benefit of the center, period. It's in the history books. No civil code; no human rights; massive, unrelenting sacrifice of the Chinese people for the "leadership".
You think China's putting a nice PR face on its ambitions is a change of heart? If so, I have a Chinese bridge to sell you - let's start with the Bay Bridge, compromised by rotten, corrupt, lacking controls that will probably come home to roost if we have a major quake here.
China is not doing the Nicaraguans any favors. Look at the the guy who is running the project, a "low profile" operative with ties to the Chinese military. Look, the Chinese elite do NOT care about people, period. they care about THEIR definition of progress, the environment and other dangerous externalities be damned. They control from the center, and treat their population like so many ants in an ant farm. You want proof - look at the sweat shops; look at the capital projects that sweep thousands of people out of the way (by force); look at the crap building materials they export. Sure, the Chinese manufacturing juggernaut can make a lot of really cool stuff (FoxCon, Lenovo, etc.), but that was made possible by American firms and their corrupt greedy bosses exporting American jobs (that includes Steve Jobs).
In fact, it's the Chinese government and its wealthy, who are insular - and the Chinese government, corrupt elite and military, who are paranoid. Call a spade a spade.
Sweeping these indigenous Nicaraguan people aside is par for the course from the Chinese perspective.
posted by Vibrissae at 11:10 PM on January 20, 2015
No, And I didn't even make the claim "mostly" - you did. And your claims about "insular" and "paranoid" mostly applies to the Chinese government; it's corrupt business class, and it's corrupt military .
The History of China is a history of a nation controlled *always* form the center, for the benefit of the center, period. It's in the history books. No civil code; no human rights; massive, unrelenting sacrifice of the Chinese people for the "leadership".
You think China's putting a nice PR face on its ambitions is a change of heart? If so, I have a Chinese bridge to sell you - let's start with the Bay Bridge, compromised by rotten, corrupt, lacking controls that will probably come home to roost if we have a major quake here.
China is not doing the Nicaraguans any favors. Look at the the guy who is running the project, a "low profile" operative with ties to the Chinese military. Look, the Chinese elite do NOT care about people, period. they care about THEIR definition of progress, the environment and other dangerous externalities be damned. They control from the center, and treat their population like so many ants in an ant farm. You want proof - look at the sweat shops; look at the capital projects that sweep thousands of people out of the way (by force); look at the crap building materials they export. Sure, the Chinese manufacturing juggernaut can make a lot of really cool stuff (FoxCon, Lenovo, etc.), but that was made possible by American firms and their corrupt greedy bosses exporting American jobs (that includes Steve Jobs).
In fact, it's the Chinese government and its wealthy, who are insular - and the Chinese government, corrupt elite and military, who are paranoid. Call a spade a spade.
Sweeping these indigenous Nicaraguan people aside is par for the course from the Chinese perspective.
posted by Vibrissae at 11:10 PM on January 20, 2015
Excellent analysis, eriko.
I would add, though, that we already a class of post-Panamax boxships that won't be able to transit Panama, and Chinese yards have already laid keels for even larger boxships. The Niagara canal (and to a lesser extent the expanded Panama one) will allow container traffic to disintermediate the notoriously busy (and troublesome, if you're anti-labor) port of LA/Long Beach and make direct USEC calls at ports deep enough.
The potentially bigger impact is lowered costs of shipping Brazilian and Colombian coal. The so-called Valemaxes (pish and tosh to these new ship designations: she's still a Cape in my book) should be able to transit Nicaragua but not even a regular Capsize will be able to transit expanded Panama.
All that having been said, bunker prices (ship fuel) are at near-historic lows and will remain there as long as crude oversupply continues. Bunkers are anywhere from 40%-65% of a ship's Opex depending on when she was built and financed, so at present, the Nicaragua canal doesn't seem like such a great deal macro economically for China. But China always plays the long game, and fuel prices can't stay low forever....
posted by digitalprimate at 1:18 AM on January 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
I would add, though, that we already a class of post-Panamax boxships that won't be able to transit Panama, and Chinese yards have already laid keels for even larger boxships. The Niagara canal (and to a lesser extent the expanded Panama one) will allow container traffic to disintermediate the notoriously busy (and troublesome, if you're anti-labor) port of LA/Long Beach and make direct USEC calls at ports deep enough.
The potentially bigger impact is lowered costs of shipping Brazilian and Colombian coal. The so-called Valemaxes (pish and tosh to these new ship designations: she's still a Cape in my book) should be able to transit Nicaragua but not even a regular Capsize will be able to transit expanded Panama.
All that having been said, bunker prices (ship fuel) are at near-historic lows and will remain there as long as crude oversupply continues. Bunkers are anywhere from 40%-65% of a ship's Opex depending on when she was built and financed, so at present, the Nicaragua canal doesn't seem like such a great deal macro economically for China. But China always plays the long game, and fuel prices can't stay low forever....
posted by digitalprimate at 1:18 AM on January 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
Sweeping these indigenous Nicaraguan people aside is par for the course from the Chinese perspective.
Eminent domain isn't exactly a new concept. This is no different from the Tennessee Valley Authority, which also displaced a lot of people who were unhappy to move. Yes it sucks for them, but we're not exactly talking the Trail of Tears, here. There are very few distinctly native american communities left in Nicaragua (in comparison to places like Guatemala). And it seems like they're trying to minimize the impact on the Miskito coast side to the native populations.
Look, the Chinese elite do NOT care about people, period. they care about THEIR definition of progress, the environment and other dangerous externalities be damned.
The history of the US in Central America is far more blood-soaked and cynical.
posted by empath at 7:07 AM on January 21, 2015
Eminent domain isn't exactly a new concept. This is no different from the Tennessee Valley Authority, which also displaced a lot of people who were unhappy to move. Yes it sucks for them, but we're not exactly talking the Trail of Tears, here. There are very few distinctly native american communities left in Nicaragua (in comparison to places like Guatemala). And it seems like they're trying to minimize the impact on the Miskito coast side to the native populations.
Look, the Chinese elite do NOT care about people, period. they care about THEIR definition of progress, the environment and other dangerous externalities be damned.
The history of the US in Central America is far more blood-soaked and cynical.
posted by empath at 7:07 AM on January 21, 2015
Man, when I looked at the first picture in the article, I thought, holy crap, that pile of dirt is already pretty fuckin' big.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:09 AM on January 21, 2015
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:09 AM on January 21, 2015
The history of the US in Central America is far more blood-soaked and cynical
Correct, but your point doesn't neutralize what th truth is about the Chinese government and its business and military elite. This is like saying that "Catholic terrorists were awful during the Inquisition" as a way to lighten up the impact of Islamic terrorists in current times.
All governments act in their own interest - as do most elites; the Chinese elite are at the top in their cynicism and abuse of anything that gets in their way - beginning with their own people.
posted by Vibrissae at 12:04 PM on January 21, 2015
Correct, but your point doesn't neutralize what th truth is about the Chinese government and its business and military elite. This is like saying that "Catholic terrorists were awful during the Inquisition" as a way to lighten up the impact of Islamic terrorists in current times.
All governments act in their own interest - as do most elites; the Chinese elite are at the top in their cynicism and abuse of anything that gets in their way - beginning with their own people.
posted by Vibrissae at 12:04 PM on January 21, 2015
The history of China is about a center that wished it controlled all of China. It still wishes and still does not. The vast majority of China is still controlled by local elites who pay lip service to the center, hoping to avoid its gaze. Most of Chinese history has been this way and only jingoistic official histories of Emperors have tried to claim their predecessors' control was complete in order to justify their own attempts at complete central control.
posted by wobumingbai at 5:36 PM on January 21, 2015
posted by wobumingbai at 5:36 PM on January 21, 2015
I loved Nicaragua, and they're lovely, joyfull people in general, but poverty is poverty. They don't have food security, safety, sanitation, quality medical care, and on and on.
It's almost like murdering and chasing out the professional class such that no one feels like returning with their money wasn't a good idea or something. But this idea is about what I'd expect from a pedophile like Ortega who rapes his own daughter.
posted by corb at 6:47 PM on January 21, 2015
It's almost like murdering and chasing out the professional class such that no one feels like returning with their money wasn't a good idea or something. But this idea is about what I'd expect from a pedophile like Ortega who rapes his own daughter.
posted by corb at 6:47 PM on January 21, 2015
Corb, there's a professional class in Nicaragua. And I don't know if you noticed, but the US doesn't have an immigration problem from Nicaragua. People are fleeing Guatemala, El Salvador and Honduras by the hundreds of thousands. Nicaraguans stay where they are, for the most part. There's no county in central america, including ones where the conservatives won their prospective civil wars, where there isn't pervasive, grinding poverty. Costa Rica is perhaps the lone exception. It's almost like 30 years of civil war funded by the US and Soviet Union destroyed economies and countries, and the winner got to rule over a pile of ashes. Do you think if the 'good guys' win in Syria, it's going to make a quick recovery to prosperity?
posted by empath at 7:57 AM on January 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by empath at 7:57 AM on January 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Nicaraguans stay where they are, for the most part.
That's because most of us already fled in the 70s and 80s.
posted by corb at 9:32 AM on January 22, 2015
That's because most of us already fled in the 70s and 80s.
posted by corb at 9:32 AM on January 22, 2015
Where are you getting "Contra bombing attack" from that? I'm seriously curious.
posted by corb at 11:53 AM on January 26, 2015
posted by corb at 11:53 AM on January 26, 2015
Basically the government is officially claiming that it's criminals, but the locals say it's an insurgency run by a former contra commander.
posted by empath at 11:59 AM on January 26, 2015
posted by empath at 11:59 AM on January 26, 2015
I think you and I are getting a different read on the same article - it seems to be suggesting that the victims were Contras, not that the Contras were responsible for the bomb.
posted by corb at 12:31 PM on January 26, 2015
"En El Portal, al Oeste del casco urbano de Pantasma, la gente dice que las víctimas de la mochila-bomba, el martes recién pasado, eran parte de una agrupación presuntamente alzada en armas contra el inconstitucional presidente Daniel Ortega y dirigida por Gerardo Gutiérrez, alias El Flaco."I mean, if you want we could pull up a lot of articles from La Prensa about the current conflict, but as it has a lot more to do with fraudulent elections and torture than the canal, I'm not sure anyone else besides possibly the two of us would be interested.
posted by corb at 12:31 PM on January 26, 2015
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