"Stuff happens," "Freedom's untidy."
March 21, 2015 1:44 PM Subscribe
Islamic State Pursues Apocalyptic Logic.
All of this didn't begin in February 2015 or in 2013, when Islamic State first appeared on the radar of Western media.
It began on March 20, 2003, when the American-led "Coalition of the Willing" invaded Iraq.
All of this didn't begin in February 2015 or in 2013, when Islamic State first appeared on the radar of Western media.
It began on March 20, 2003, when the American-led "Coalition of the Willing" invaded Iraq.
Religious extremists, Islamic and otherwise, have been destroying artifacts, etc. for a very long time.
posted by Sticherbeast at 2:58 PM on March 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Sticherbeast at 2:58 PM on March 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
From the article:
But after so many mistaken and failed wars, from Iraq to Libya, the public is no longer willing to fight the one war that makes sense.
Because it makes no sense to fight a war that would essentially been the result of a mistaken and failed one.
The US et al. made some horrific errors, and IS is a consequence. Mitigating their existence is likely best done without a war but perhaps a concerted effort between countries to contain them without further agitating and thus growing them.
posted by JoeXIII007 at 3:15 PM on March 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
But after so many mistaken and failed wars, from Iraq to Libya, the public is no longer willing to fight the one war that makes sense.
Because it makes no sense to fight a war that would essentially been the result of a mistaken and failed one.
The US et al. made some horrific errors, and IS is a consequence. Mitigating their existence is likely best done without a war but perhaps a concerted effort between countries to contain them without further agitating and thus growing them.
posted by JoeXIII007 at 3:15 PM on March 21, 2015 [4 favorites]
The [Bush] aide said that guys like me were "in what we call the reality-based community," which he defined as people who "believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality." ... "That's not the way the world really works anymore," he continued. "We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. "
And here it is.
posted by delfin at 3:25 PM on March 21, 2015 [37 favorites]
And here it is.
posted by delfin at 3:25 PM on March 21, 2015 [37 favorites]
[looks nervous]
I did not know a lot of of these destructions and the writer isn't easy at all on IS. That roto-wash is not good. Esp. in urban areas. I thought it a crime that the U.S. did not protect the museum better.
Criminal.
posted by clavdivs at 3:32 PM on March 21, 2015
I did not know a lot of of these destructions and the writer isn't easy at all on IS. That roto-wash is not good. Esp. in urban areas. I thought it a crime that the U.S. did not protect the museum better.
Criminal.
posted by clavdivs at 3:32 PM on March 21, 2015
Religious extremists, Islamic and otherwise, have been destroying artifacts, etc. for a very long time.
Including some of our staunchest of allies.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:41 PM on March 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Including some of our staunchest of allies.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 3:41 PM on March 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
They always say "follow the money"
Bremer's financial adviser, retired Admiral David Oliver, is even more direct. In an interview with the BBC World Service,asked what had happened to the $8.8bn he replied: "I have no idea. I can't tell you whether or not the money went to the right things or didn't - nor do I actually think it's important."
Zero accountability.
That was cash; but Oh look it's happening again.
posted by adamvasco at 3:46 PM on March 21, 2015 [9 favorites]
Bremer's financial adviser, retired Admiral David Oliver, is even more direct. In an interview with the BBC World Service,asked what had happened to the $8.8bn he replied: "I have no idea. I can't tell you whether or not the money went to the right things or didn't - nor do I actually think it's important."
Zero accountability.
That was cash; but Oh look it's happening again.
posted by adamvasco at 3:46 PM on March 21, 2015 [9 favorites]
Islamicist apocalypticism aside, George W. Bush made it quite clear he was fine with divinely inspired crusades and End-Times religiosity:
"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East." (2003)
"Gog and Magog are at work in the Middle East. . . . The biblical prophecies are being fulfilled. . . . This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people's enemies before a New Age begins." (2003)
"I am driven with a mission from God." (2003)
"This is a new kind of …a new kind of evil. And we understand. And the American people are beginning to understand. This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while." (2001)
"I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen." (1999)
posted by Doktor Zed at 4:02 PM on March 21, 2015 [24 favorites]
"God told me to strike at al Qaida and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East." (2003)
"Gog and Magog are at work in the Middle East. . . . The biblical prophecies are being fulfilled. . . . This confrontation is willed by God, who wants to use this conflict to erase his people's enemies before a New Age begins." (2003)
"I am driven with a mission from God." (2003)
"This is a new kind of …a new kind of evil. And we understand. And the American people are beginning to understand. This crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while." (2001)
"I feel like God wants me to run for President. I can't explain it, but I sense my country is going to need me. Something is going to happen." (1999)
posted by Doktor Zed at 4:02 PM on March 21, 2015 [24 favorites]
>the public is no longer willing to fight the one war that makes sense.
It's always The One War That Makes Sense.
The present evil was created by the last campaign to eradicate evil. At some point you have to stop putting on your stupidest Bullwinkle voice and saying, "This time for sure!"
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:15 PM on March 21, 2015 [15 favorites]
It's always The One War That Makes Sense.
The present evil was created by the last campaign to eradicate evil. At some point you have to stop putting on your stupidest Bullwinkle voice and saying, "This time for sure!"
posted by Sing Or Swim at 4:15 PM on March 21, 2015 [15 favorites]
To address these concerns, a delegation of academics, museum directors, art collectors and art dealers met with Pentagon officials in January 2003 to convince them to protect the archeological digs.
Now, if you could get a big name, an A-lister like Clooney or Damon, attached to the project...
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:23 PM on March 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Now, if you could get a big name, an A-lister like Clooney or Damon, attached to the project...
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:23 PM on March 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
Seriously, though, the article is trying to draw a moral equivalence between the failure to prevent looting and the recruiting tools of a regime that beheads fathers and sells their daughters into sex slavery.
When people use "liberal" as a pejorative term, this is the kind of bullshit they're talking about.
Don't be so open-minded that your brain falls out.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:32 PM on March 21, 2015 [13 favorites]
When people use "liberal" as a pejorative term, this is the kind of bullshit they're talking about.
Don't be so open-minded that your brain falls out.
posted by Cool Papa Bell at 4:32 PM on March 21, 2015 [13 favorites]
Ah, containment. Such a good idea. It would probably have worked in Syria, too, if it weren't for our Turkish friends, what with that "porous" border. V. hard to make tight, that, when you only have 300,000 soldiers in your army, with modern tanks and F-16s, you know.
Really, if you want this to stop, you need to convince Turkey to close its border, with serious sanctions at hand. Then the Iraqis need to get their act together, and to be given the right kind of equipment: ground attack aircraft and older soviet tanks. Things are going to turn hellish, but the Caliph's troops are going to get crushed.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 4:47 PM on March 21, 2015
Really, if you want this to stop, you need to convince Turkey to close its border, with serious sanctions at hand. Then the Iraqis need to get their act together, and to be given the right kind of equipment: ground attack aircraft and older soviet tanks. Things are going to turn hellish, but the Caliph's troops are going to get crushed.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 4:47 PM on March 21, 2015
So now Libya is accepted as a stupid fiasco? Because it was being held up as "See? Sometimes it's good to kill people with the bombs of freedom" up until at least last year.
posted by Justinian at 4:49 PM on March 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 4:49 PM on March 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
Where's Qaddafi's son these days? He called this (the disaster unfolding in Libya) just as it was he's ing up. I wonder if he's enjoying his I told you so?
posted by notyou at 5:12 PM on March 21, 2015
posted by notyou at 5:12 PM on March 21, 2015
Really, if you want this to stop, you need to convince Turkey to close its border, with serious sanctions at hand. Then the Iraqis need to get their act together, and to be given the right kind of equipment: ground attack aircraft and older soviet tanks. Things are going to turn hellish, but the Caliph's troops are going to get crushed.
If you want to win against ISIS you give the Kurds some of that good shit. But then again they've been wanting their own homeland since '23 when the Turks were kicked out and then you've given the Kurds a cache of weapons which would then be a *VERY* awkward situation.
Ethnic geopolitics are so fun. /s
posted by Talez at 5:16 PM on March 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
If you want to win against ISIS you give the Kurds some of that good shit. But then again they've been wanting their own homeland since '23 when the Turks were kicked out and then you've given the Kurds a cache of weapons which would then be a *VERY* awkward situation.
Ethnic geopolitics are so fun. /s
posted by Talez at 5:16 PM on March 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
What is this post trying to say: that destruction of cultural artifacts started with the U.S. Invasion? Or that IS did? And that, of course, Everything Bad Today is America's fault?
It's a bit narcissistic.
posted by kanewai at 5:19 PM on March 21, 2015
It's a bit narcissistic.
posted by kanewai at 5:19 PM on March 21, 2015
Remember the Khmer Rouge? Bombing and scaring people fucks them up, it is not a big surprise.
posted by Meatbomb at 5:31 PM on March 21, 2015
posted by Meatbomb at 5:31 PM on March 21, 2015
I really wish Saddam had looted his museums. It would have been good PR and practical.
posted by clavdivs at 5:32 PM on March 21, 2015
posted by clavdivs at 5:32 PM on March 21, 2015
I always figured the "intelligence" groups et al. figured Saddam had all the WMDs because...we gave them to him! Back when Saddam was our pal and we were hating on Iran. Turned out, he had already used 'em all up. That's kinda US policy: arm the countries all around the country we don't like at the time.
And it was telling when we invaded Iraq and the troops all protected the oil fields and refineries and left the museums and other cultural sites open to looting.
posted by CrowGoat at 6:01 PM on March 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
And it was telling when we invaded Iraq and the troops all protected the oil fields and refineries and left the museums and other cultural sites open to looting.
posted by CrowGoat at 6:01 PM on March 21, 2015 [1 favorite]
"Religious extremists, Islamic and otherwise, have been destroying artifacts, etc. for a very long time."
Religious extremists? If you give a man a gun and tell him to kill for you, you're an extremist. I don't know what you'd call out extremism, capitalist extremism or what, but we're all barbarians always poised to kill and destroy .
posted by GoblinHoney at 6:34 PM on March 21, 2015
Religious extremists? If you give a man a gun and tell him to kill for you, you're an extremist. I don't know what you'd call out extremism, capitalist extremism or what, but we're all barbarians always poised to kill and destroy .
posted by GoblinHoney at 6:34 PM on March 21, 2015
kanewai I think the post is about the extreme short term memory of America and the very nasty company that you keep as a nation. As an arrogantly self declared Empire you tramp over the liberties of your own and of others. After all it was only a few folks who were tortured. As for is everything bad today America's fault? well I'll just be polite and say that America as presently projected to the rest of us seems to be a large part of the problem and not the solution.
posted by adamvasco at 7:11 PM on March 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by adamvasco at 7:11 PM on March 21, 2015 [7 favorites]
I Have never considered Canada nasty, sure, they are funnier then us but clean as hell.
posted by clavdivs at 7:19 PM on March 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by clavdivs at 7:19 PM on March 21, 2015 [2 favorites]
I thought this piece made some good points. When ISIS is mentioned in the news, it's often to focus on their latest atrocities/publicity stunts. There's hardly any ongoing geopolitical or historical analysis, or even a decent map, which I think is surprising in terms of ISIS' expansion, although it may also be understandable in terms of the skeletons in the western closet related to failed interventions in the region.
The whole "look at this don't look at that" strategy also seems to be playing successfully into provoking the kinds of xenophobic backlashes and military interventions that might only gain ISIS further support, including support in western countries.
posted by carter at 7:45 PM on March 21, 2015
The whole "look at this don't look at that" strategy also seems to be playing successfully into provoking the kinds of xenophobic backlashes and military interventions that might only gain ISIS further support, including support in western countries.
posted by carter at 7:45 PM on March 21, 2015
This limited war is probably better than the old shock-and-awe of the previous decade. There will always be a minority of the population with insatiable blood-lust, I call them "piss-hawks", and they just won't stop complaining and whining unless their nation is out there killing somebody. We try to ignore them, but their loud yelling distorts and overwhelms any rational political discourse, so just give them a pointless little game to play in order to shut them up. If they complain that we haven't put enough resources in the game to win the pointless war, then maybe we'll just say that they haven't met their objectives so far...
posted by ovvl at 8:06 PM on March 21, 2015
posted by ovvl at 8:06 PM on March 21, 2015
Seriously, though, the article is trying to draw a moral equivalence between the failure to prevent looting and the recruiting tools of a regime that beheads fathers and sells their daughters into sex slavery.
To the extent that ISIS is our creation, the offspring of our secret torture and death camps, the legacy of loading Iraqi children full of depleted uranium, white phosphorus and all the burning oil fields' PAHs, the article's "moral equivalence" is probably not only apt, but fairly mild in application, in hindsight. Much, much worse was already on our side of the scales — and so much worse is yet to come! Be patient, neocons.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:19 PM on March 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
To the extent that ISIS is our creation, the offspring of our secret torture and death camps, the legacy of loading Iraqi children full of depleted uranium, white phosphorus and all the burning oil fields' PAHs, the article's "moral equivalence" is probably not only apt, but fairly mild in application, in hindsight. Much, much worse was already on our side of the scales — and so much worse is yet to come! Be patient, neocons.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 10:19 PM on March 21, 2015 [3 favorites]
IS is one of those side-effects, and its members are in fact not monsters from the Middle Ages. On the contrary, says British philosopher John Gray, who calls IS a "modern movement through and through," a sort of terrorist startup with a clearly defined business model. "There is nothing random or irrational about IS violence," writes British religious scholar Karen Armstrong, noting that "IS is not an atavistic return to a primitive past."
It's modern in the sense that modern means are used to further primitive social goals. And the distinction between modern villains and primitive ones doesn't factor anyway, because wielding power traditionally had magical sources (or other ineffable qualities), and that's how imported high technology is often revered.
posted by Brian B. at 11:43 PM on March 21, 2015
It's modern in the sense that modern means are used to further primitive social goals. And the distinction between modern villains and primitive ones doesn't factor anyway, because wielding power traditionally had magical sources (or other ineffable qualities), and that's how imported high technology is often revered.
posted by Brian B. at 11:43 PM on March 21, 2015
kanewai I think the post is about the extreme short term memory of America and the very nasty company that you keep as a nation
Let me clarify: the article traces the origins of IS theology to 2003, and blames it's rise on the US invasion, but gives absolutely no supporting evidence. They mention the looting of the museum after the invasion, but looting is not the same as willful destruction of artifacts. Given that Islamist groups had been using terror tactics for a few decades prior to the US Invasion - and that IS specifically arose out of the chaos of the Syrian civil war - it doesn't seem a tenable position.
The second article is on whether Bush lied or not, and is only tangentially related to the first.
The post seems to be more of an editorial rather than a post offering anything new or newsworthy.
posted by kanewai at 12:46 AM on March 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
Let me clarify: the article traces the origins of IS theology to 2003, and blames it's rise on the US invasion, but gives absolutely no supporting evidence. They mention the looting of the museum after the invasion, but looting is not the same as willful destruction of artifacts. Given that Islamist groups had been using terror tactics for a few decades prior to the US Invasion - and that IS specifically arose out of the chaos of the Syrian civil war - it doesn't seem a tenable position.
The second article is on whether Bush lied or not, and is only tangentially related to the first.
The post seems to be more of an editorial rather than a post offering anything new or newsworthy.
posted by kanewai at 12:46 AM on March 22, 2015 [5 favorites]
ISIS is fascinating because it marries two things really, really well: a very dire, apocalyptic vision of the future, very much like a cult, and a zeal for self-promotion, particularly in the realm of social media. Frontline has some really great programs and podcasts about them. I think it was one of the podcasts where a journalist from the Middle East said to be really worried when Jordan failed. Which, I was like, "oh shit right Jordan wait what Jordan might fall, too?" This was a few months ago, though, and it looks like ISIS has crested and is started to wane.
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:44 AM on March 22, 2015
posted by (Arsenio) Hall and (Warren) Oates at 5:44 AM on March 22, 2015
Bombing and scaring people fucks them up, it is not a big surprise.
Presumably all those British recruits to IS were fucked up by watching the bombings on the TV then?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:43 AM on March 22, 2015
Presumably all those British recruits to IS were fucked up by watching the bombings on the TV then?
posted by PeterMcDermott at 6:43 AM on March 22, 2015
[IS] is modern in the sense that modern means are used to further primitive social goals.
Sort of an Islamic version of the Republican Party.
posted by sneebler at 7:18 AM on March 22, 2015
Sort of an Islamic version of the Republican Party.
posted by sneebler at 7:18 AM on March 22, 2015
Presumably all those British recruits to IS were fucked up by watching the bombings on the TV then?
Were they ever a significant portion of these armies? Honestly don't know, but kind of doubt it.
posted by Meatbomb at 8:20 AM on March 22, 2015
Were they ever a significant portion of these armies? Honestly don't know, but kind of doubt it.
posted by Meatbomb at 8:20 AM on March 22, 2015
Fascinating BBC article about Assyrian ruins. Recently stolen artifacts are already in the marketplace.
posted by adamvasco at 8:57 AM on March 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by adamvasco at 8:57 AM on March 22, 2015 [1 favorite]
Extremists destroying historical artefacts. Happens a lot
posted by jan murray at 3:28 PM on March 22, 2015
posted by jan murray at 3:28 PM on March 22, 2015
Keith Nightingale, ISIS for the Common Man, Small Wars Journal
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:33 PM on March 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:33 PM on March 22, 2015 [2 favorites]
Tarek Fatah: Breaking Down Jihadi Terror
posted by adamvasco at 5:53 PM on March 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by adamvasco at 5:53 PM on March 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
The Telegraph: Statues destroyed by Islamic State in Mosul 'were fakes with originals safely in Baghdad'
The jihadists of Islamic State enraged many when they filmed themselves destroying Iraq’s ancient treasures but the head of the country’s national antiquities department confirmed they were plaster copies of priceless originals.posted by Rustic Etruscan at 6:47 AM on April 2, 2015
“None of the artefacts destroyed in the video is an original,” Fawzye al-Mahdi told the German broadcaster Deutsche Welle.
Curators at the Baghdad Museum studied the video and found that many of the artefacts that appeared to have been destroyed were in fact safe inside their own museum.
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This sounds less silly when written in German.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 2:51 PM on March 21, 2015 [5 favorites]