I was completely embarrassed by it at the time
April 2, 2015 1:26 PM Subscribe
There is crying in science. That’s okay. People cry. Scientists are people. Therefore, scientists cry. So why is it that scientists and academics can get so freaked out by a colleague or student crying?
Economics. If there's any discipline that needs more crying it's econ. There's a reason it's called "the dismal science."
posted by octobersurprise at 1:48 PM on April 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by octobersurprise at 1:48 PM on April 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
This hits home. I stood up once at a seminar where the speaker was talking about parents of premature kids, especially those who are seriously ill. The speaker had said that many of the parents ended up with symptoms of PTSD, and that they often went unrecognized. He talked about how NICUs have been redesigned to provide privacy and comfort to the parents as they nurture their tiny offspring. I rose to tell of my own experience with my first daughter, because then the NICU was a noisy, bright 24-hour madhouse that we tried to make a normal bonding experience in. As I started to talk, I broke down weeping. This was 35 years later and I didn't realize I still had these strong emotions in me about that experience. Then I remembered that I had had some extreme anxiety attacks about this time (we had also just bought a new house and I was studying as much as I could for my PhD prelims). It hadn't occurred to me that these were PTSD-like reactions, but I now suspect they were. In any event, I tried to keep talking through my tears and finally just stopped for while to regain my composure. The audience was quite respectful and didn't hurry me.
Afterwards, I felt ashamed and was worried that some of my colleagues would think less of me because of this. Big boys don't cry, y'all. But, amazingly, people were extremely gentle and supportive and I've suffered no blowback as near as I can tell. Maybe it's because many of my colleagues are care providers as well as researchers (MDs and RN/PhDs).
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:49 PM on April 2, 2015 [24 favorites]
Afterwards, I felt ashamed and was worried that some of my colleagues would think less of me because of this. Big boys don't cry, y'all. But, amazingly, people were extremely gentle and supportive and I've suffered no blowback as near as I can tell. Maybe it's because many of my colleagues are care providers as well as researchers (MDs and RN/PhDs).
posted by Mental Wimp at 1:49 PM on April 2, 2015 [24 favorites]
I was working in a high-powered lab in a fancy hospital, in a very science-focused northeastern city, and one day something happened that completely ruined all my hard planning and preparation for a long day of experiments. And I was crying. I was upset for a multitude of reasons but mostly because my science for the day was foiled and a male coworker saw me and said,
"What's wrong with your face?"
Luckily, my female boss was there too and she said, "She's been crying [you clod], this terrible, frustrating thing happened [so back off]"
Science takes your heart and soul and very frequently dashes everything you've worked hard for. Crying is an essential stress reliever.
posted by bobobox at 1:53 PM on April 2, 2015 [19 favorites]
"What's wrong with your face?"
Luckily, my female boss was there too and she said, "She's been crying [you clod], this terrible, frustrating thing happened [so back off]"
Science takes your heart and soul and very frequently dashes everything you've worked hard for. Crying is an essential stress reliever.
posted by bobobox at 1:53 PM on April 2, 2015 [19 favorites]
Economics. If there's any discipline that needs more crying it's econ. There's a reason it's called "the dismal science."
I was actually having a conversation with some of my fellow (econ) grad students about this. I've never had a student cry in front of me, but some of my colleagues who are women have. I don't know if it's the difference between just being a TA with some teaching involved versus them being the primary instructors for their courses, or because I'm a dude and they feel less able to express emotion in front of me or what.
posted by dismas at 1:53 PM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I was actually having a conversation with some of my fellow (econ) grad students about this. I've never had a student cry in front of me, but some of my colleagues who are women have. I don't know if it's the difference between just being a TA with some teaching involved versus them being the primary instructors for their courses, or because I'm a dude and they feel less able to express emotion in front of me or what.
posted by dismas at 1:53 PM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is all the advice scientists in my lab ever get.
posted by lalochezia at 2:01 PM on April 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 2:01 PM on April 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
Why 'science'? You think arts people take crying as normal?
posted by Segundus at 2:02 PM on April 2, 2015
posted by Segundus at 2:02 PM on April 2, 2015
The author is a scientist and is writing about her professional experiences.
posted by sciatrix at 2:11 PM on April 2, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by sciatrix at 2:11 PM on April 2, 2015 [14 favorites]
I saw this a couple days ago and I've been meaning to print it out and leave it in the student lounge. I love it.
posted by pemberkins at 2:15 PM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by pemberkins at 2:15 PM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I enjoyed watching Homeland, partly because Carrie cries quite a lot at work, and it's not written as some kind of failure; indeed, in some situations her emotions are shown as an asset. She is an actual three dimensional person and she cries sometimes and that is ok.
posted by emilyw at 2:18 PM on April 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by emilyw at 2:18 PM on April 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think making more open expression of emotions (other than anger, which is ok if you are high up enough) ok for everyone, including men, would do a lot to improve the world. Including in the workplace. Some situations are just overwhelming and crying in response is both human and understandable.
I heard someone bitch once because there was some loud crying in another department, from a woman who'd just received a phone call that her mother had died. Jesus. Just because it's work doesn't mean you have to cease being a human being with a soul.
posted by emjaybee at 2:19 PM on April 2, 2015 [25 favorites]
I heard someone bitch once because there was some loud crying in another department, from a woman who'd just received a phone call that her mother had died. Jesus. Just because it's work doesn't mean you have to cease being a human being with a soul.
posted by emjaybee at 2:19 PM on April 2, 2015 [25 favorites]
Testosterone/hormones to me explain the crying thing. As a woman who cries a lot (thankfully never in front of a boss or professor, but I wouldn't be surprised), sometimes you just... can't not cry. It's literally like throwing up. Do I want to throw up? Am I going to do my damned best not to throw up in the lab, or in front of my boss, and make a beeline for the nearest available bathroom? Of course, but I can't just... not. I mean, maybe I can, but sometimes, no. It's like fricking diarrhea.
And so I can understand how someone who's never thrown up before would be like, "dude, what the hell? That's gross, don't throw up!" But if you have then it's easier to see it as the obviously embarassing, unpleasant thing that it is.* Like vomit! And diarrhea!
*I don't actually think crying is bad, just as throwing up isn't necessarily "bad," because they're normal and can make you feel better (if a little rundown and disgusting). But crying/puking in front of important person you want to impress is typically an unhappy thing for most people. I have NEVER cried to control or manipulate someone, sometimes I just can't not cry. Crying to win an argument is the opposite of my experience-- usually when I start crying I am thinking "jesus motherfucker, I am trying to express myself!!" I have burst into tears in an argument with my dad more than once in the last two years-- not something I'm proud of as a grown woman, but if my body is biologically disposed to do that, then maybe the shame isn't really useful? Sorry I vomited, sorry I had to take a piss, sorry I started menstruating everywhere, sorry I was crying, idk. If there was a tampon for my tear ducts I'd use it. (Not really, I am joking. Destigmatizing being human is the way to go, IMO.)
So if you're a dude with lots of healthy testosterone and you just don't GET women and crying, imagine having a fight with someone and then needing desperately to have a manly fart. And if you fart, the person you're arguing with says, "I can't believe you're farting to win this argument! To manipulate me!" The absurdity!
My point being that currently none of this stuff is fun to do in sensitive social situations like work, but we could tone down the accusations of "what a pathetic teenage girl" when someone cries, maybe. (Please don't fart at work, either, but if you accidentally do, I will be openminded about it.)
posted by stoneandstar at 2:20 PM on April 2, 2015 [54 favorites]
And so I can understand how someone who's never thrown up before would be like, "dude, what the hell? That's gross, don't throw up!" But if you have then it's easier to see it as the obviously embarassing, unpleasant thing that it is.* Like vomit! And diarrhea!
*I don't actually think crying is bad, just as throwing up isn't necessarily "bad," because they're normal and can make you feel better (if a little rundown and disgusting). But crying/puking in front of important person you want to impress is typically an unhappy thing for most people. I have NEVER cried to control or manipulate someone, sometimes I just can't not cry. Crying to win an argument is the opposite of my experience-- usually when I start crying I am thinking "jesus motherfucker, I am trying to express myself!!" I have burst into tears in an argument with my dad more than once in the last two years-- not something I'm proud of as a grown woman, but if my body is biologically disposed to do that, then maybe the shame isn't really useful? Sorry I vomited, sorry I had to take a piss, sorry I started menstruating everywhere, sorry I was crying, idk. If there was a tampon for my tear ducts I'd use it. (Not really, I am joking. Destigmatizing being human is the way to go, IMO.)
So if you're a dude with lots of healthy testosterone and you just don't GET women and crying, imagine having a fight with someone and then needing desperately to have a manly fart. And if you fart, the person you're arguing with says, "I can't believe you're farting to win this argument! To manipulate me!" The absurdity!
My point being that currently none of this stuff is fun to do in sensitive social situations like work, but we could tone down the accusations of "what a pathetic teenage girl" when someone cries, maybe. (Please don't fart at work, either, but if you accidentally do, I will be openminded about it.)
posted by stoneandstar at 2:20 PM on April 2, 2015 [54 favorites]
You think arts people take crying as normal?
IME, unpredictable swings between giddy hilarity and utter moroseness are pretty par for the course among arts people. As are sudden rages rapidly downshifting to chumly gregariousness.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:32 PM on April 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
IME, unpredictable swings between giddy hilarity and utter moroseness are pretty par for the course among arts people. As are sudden rages rapidly downshifting to chumly gregariousness.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:32 PM on April 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
I won't deny that there could be a gender element, culturally and maybe even biologically, but can we not talk about it like it's a binary? A lot of women don't have much of a crying impulse, and a lot of men do.
posted by ernielundquist at 2:36 PM on April 2, 2015 [16 favorites]
posted by ernielundquist at 2:36 PM on April 2, 2015 [16 favorites]
I am a hair-trigger public crier (as is my mother, as was her mother), and I'm kind-of a tough broad, so it's not that I'm "over-sensitive," it's just that I cry easily. I cry most readily when I feel frustrated, helpless, or out-of-control (I put off calling telecommunications companies for DAYS when I have a problem because those calls are SO FRUSTRATING that I always end up in tears, guaranteed); or else I have very strong emotions on something. (One time I was lecturing to a philosophy class on the Declaration of Independence and -- true story -- I got all teary with patriotism.) OFTEN getting angry instead of frustrated will hold back the tears, so sometimes I focus on being angry so I can get through something without crying, but this can backfire as if I start to rage-cry, it's game over and I am going to be a sobbing heap, whereas frustration-crying is temporary and less dramatic.
There aren't many professional or academic situations I haven't at some point cried in, and I can assure you from extensive personal experience, it is mostly not the end of the world. After many years experience of this, I now usually just announce, "Shoot, I'm going to cry." If people express concern and ask if I need a break, I say something like, "No, it's just stress/relief/anger/whatever, and I'm an easy crier, let's just power through." If I get tense and embarrassed about the crying, I tend to choke up and can't talk and it becomes a vicious cycle of escalating stress-crying. Now that I've mostly relaxed and accepted that I'm just going to cry sometimes and there's nothing I can do about it, I can usually keep going through it with just a chokey-sounding voice and a lot of kleenex.
The best response for me is when the other person just tacitly passes the kleenex box, which is what people who know me usually do, and then when we finish that part of the conversation, they're like, "You okay?" and I'm like, "Yeah, thanks," and we move on. With strangers it's more awkward, because we're definitely going to have to stop and talk for a minute about the fact that I'm crying; the best thing is if they just ask if I need a break or if I'm okay, and then let me continue if I want to. The WORST thing is when 700 people come over to comfort me because then I'm the center of attention being embarrassed and the more embarrassed I get the harder it is to stop crying. Knowing that I'm making other people uncomfortable by crying makes me more embarrassed and makes it harder to stop, so try to remain calm, citizen!
I did a few times in college have (male) professors become extremely uncomfortable and tell me things like, "Crying won't help you" (DUH IT'S NOT ON PURPOSE YOU JACKASS) or "Please stop crying" (WOULD IF I COULD) or "Displays of emotion make me very uncomfortable, maybe you should come back" (Okay, but we'll just be doing this again then!). I was always kind of like, "You work with teenagers, how are you this uncomfortable with crying?" Like, probably if crying is that distressing for you, education of adolescents and young adults, grief counseling, and oncology are not good fields to go into. It was upsetting and stressful to have those conversations, but I understood even then that it was more their problem than mine. I was a teenager! They were adult men! Part of their job was to deal with students who were hot messes!
As for worst public crying, I'd say crying in front of my students (which has happened a couple of times) was pretty bad, but crying on television is the worst, especially because you will become the B-roll for the news story about whatever thing you were crying on television about in the first place, so you will awesomely get to see your cry-face on every local newscast that night. And everyone you know will e-mail you about it. Crying in meetings is not my favorite, but people are pretty nice about it. Crying in meetings about your kid (with teachers, pediatricians, etc.) is pretty bad, because you want to feel like a parent in control and you end up feeling like a child yourself. (It's probably the #1 worst if your kid is there and you cry.)
I cry so easily that the priest at my wedding stopped the ceremony to ask if I was sure I wanted to go through with it, because I was crying so hard. And when the ob/gyn confirmed I was pregnant, I burst into tears and appeared so distraught that the Catholic hospital gave me an abortion pamphlet. No, I'm happy! These are just my feelings leaking! I have a lot of them!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:42 PM on April 2, 2015 [83 favorites]
There aren't many professional or academic situations I haven't at some point cried in, and I can assure you from extensive personal experience, it is mostly not the end of the world. After many years experience of this, I now usually just announce, "Shoot, I'm going to cry." If people express concern and ask if I need a break, I say something like, "No, it's just stress/relief/anger/whatever, and I'm an easy crier, let's just power through." If I get tense and embarrassed about the crying, I tend to choke up and can't talk and it becomes a vicious cycle of escalating stress-crying. Now that I've mostly relaxed and accepted that I'm just going to cry sometimes and there's nothing I can do about it, I can usually keep going through it with just a chokey-sounding voice and a lot of kleenex.
The best response for me is when the other person just tacitly passes the kleenex box, which is what people who know me usually do, and then when we finish that part of the conversation, they're like, "You okay?" and I'm like, "Yeah, thanks," and we move on. With strangers it's more awkward, because we're definitely going to have to stop and talk for a minute about the fact that I'm crying; the best thing is if they just ask if I need a break or if I'm okay, and then let me continue if I want to. The WORST thing is when 700 people come over to comfort me because then I'm the center of attention being embarrassed and the more embarrassed I get the harder it is to stop crying. Knowing that I'm making other people uncomfortable by crying makes me more embarrassed and makes it harder to stop, so try to remain calm, citizen!
I did a few times in college have (male) professors become extremely uncomfortable and tell me things like, "Crying won't help you" (DUH IT'S NOT ON PURPOSE YOU JACKASS) or "Please stop crying" (WOULD IF I COULD) or "Displays of emotion make me very uncomfortable, maybe you should come back" (Okay, but we'll just be doing this again then!). I was always kind of like, "You work with teenagers, how are you this uncomfortable with crying?" Like, probably if crying is that distressing for you, education of adolescents and young adults, grief counseling, and oncology are not good fields to go into. It was upsetting and stressful to have those conversations, but I understood even then that it was more their problem than mine. I was a teenager! They were adult men! Part of their job was to deal with students who were hot messes!
As for worst public crying, I'd say crying in front of my students (which has happened a couple of times) was pretty bad, but crying on television is the worst, especially because you will become the B-roll for the news story about whatever thing you were crying on television about in the first place, so you will awesomely get to see your cry-face on every local newscast that night. And everyone you know will e-mail you about it. Crying in meetings is not my favorite, but people are pretty nice about it. Crying in meetings about your kid (with teachers, pediatricians, etc.) is pretty bad, because you want to feel like a parent in control and you end up feeling like a child yourself. (It's probably the #1 worst if your kid is there and you cry.)
I cry so easily that the priest at my wedding stopped the ceremony to ask if I was sure I wanted to go through with it, because I was crying so hard. And when the ob/gyn confirmed I was pregnant, I burst into tears and appeared so distraught that the Catholic hospital gave me an abortion pamphlet. No, I'm happy! These are just my feelings leaking! I have a lot of them!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:42 PM on April 2, 2015 [83 favorites]
I mean I have worked with people where nearly every conversation was conducted on a plane somewhere between rage and ecstasy.
posted by octobersurprise at 2:43 PM on April 2, 2015
posted by octobersurprise at 2:43 PM on April 2, 2015
Why 'science'? You think arts people take crying as normal?
Well, maybe in the performing arts.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:44 PM on April 2, 2015
Well, maybe in the performing arts.
posted by Apocryphon at 2:44 PM on April 2, 2015
emotional responses like that are generally unwelcome in those settings.
I've been in a lot of labs -- both my parents are research scientists -- and I've seen a lot of elation, worry, dread, excitement and anger in them. In my experience, emotional responses are very welcome in those settings, with the exception of crying.
posted by KathrynT at 2:45 PM on April 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've been in a lot of labs -- both my parents are research scientists -- and I've seen a lot of elation, worry, dread, excitement and anger in them. In my experience, emotional responses are very welcome in those settings, with the exception of crying.
posted by KathrynT at 2:45 PM on April 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is the Friends clip that speaks my heart about crying:
"Now, just to brief you, I may cry, but they are not tears of sadness or of anger, but just of me having this discussion with you." (Jump to 1:16, I can't make the time embed work.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:47 PM on April 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
"Now, just to brief you, I may cry, but they are not tears of sadness or of anger, but just of me having this discussion with you." (Jump to 1:16, I can't make the time embed work.)
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 2:47 PM on April 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
My usual emotional responses in general involve mayhem at best and murder at worst so crying is a really terrible thing for me when it happens, basically the involuntary emotional equivalent of norovirus pants-shitting.
(unless it is crying at dog food commercials because i do that a lot and am wholly unconcerned, esp when it's the ones about senior dogs)
posted by poffin boffin at 2:50 PM on April 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
(unless it is crying at dog food commercials because i do that a lot and am wholly unconcerned, esp when it's the ones about senior dogs)
posted by poffin boffin at 2:50 PM on April 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
The link in the FPP to the 2006 article Does Gender Matter? from Nature by Ben Barres (who identifies himself as a female-to-male transgender person in the article) is definitely worth a read. (Previously)
Shortly after I changed sex, a faculty member was heard to say “Ben Barres gave a great seminar today, but then his work is much better than his sister’s.”
posted by larrybob at 2:52 PM on April 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
Shortly after I changed sex, a faculty member was heard to say “Ben Barres gave a great seminar today, but then his work is much better than his sister’s.”
posted by larrybob at 2:52 PM on April 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
She is an actual three dimensional person and she cries sometimes and that is ok.
And she cries like a real person; she's a hell of an actor in everything I've seen her in. I didn't even know it was her in Temple Grandin until halfway through.
I remember in journalism school I took an ethics class, and the professor was telling us about I think an airplane crash where the press was hounding the victims' families, and he started crying, and everyone just froze. No one made a sound, and he composed himself and continued the lecture.
I don't remember anyone saying anything about it afterward, and it was a terrible story, crying seemed totally reasonable. It did freak everyone out right at that moment, though.
My students cry all the damn time, but they're 6 and 7, so...
posted by Huck500 at 2:56 PM on April 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
And she cries like a real person; she's a hell of an actor in everything I've seen her in. I didn't even know it was her in Temple Grandin until halfway through.
I remember in journalism school I took an ethics class, and the professor was telling us about I think an airplane crash where the press was hounding the victims' families, and he started crying, and everyone just froze. No one made a sound, and he composed himself and continued the lecture.
I don't remember anyone saying anything about it afterward, and it was a terrible story, crying seemed totally reasonable. It did freak everyone out right at that moment, though.
My students cry all the damn time, but they're 6 and 7, so...
posted by Huck500 at 2:56 PM on April 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
I was a "crier" for most of my life and it really, really sucks in a professional setting, especially because one of my "cry triggers" is what I'll call impotent frustration/anger, and I am a woman, so I have had more than one horrible experience of crying in front of a boss or other person in power who was being a total sexist jackass. And of course crying in front of someone who's treating you unfairly for sexist reasons, as a young woman, only makes it worse.
I'm in my mid-thirties and I still tend to tear up but the waterworks don't flow as easily as they used to, which I think probably comes from the fact that I frankly have a lot more power in my day-to-day life than I did in my teens and twenties. I find myself feeling disempowered much less frequently, so I'm less likely to have this particular emotional response.
I sort of wonder if this is one of the reasons crying is so unwelcome in the workplace. It is (or can be) a highly emotional reaction to feeling disempowered, and it sort of calls attention to all kinds of power structures and abuses of those structures that modern, white-collar workplaces try to pretend don't exist.
posted by lunasol at 2:58 PM on April 2, 2015 [34 favorites]
I'm in my mid-thirties and I still tend to tear up but the waterworks don't flow as easily as they used to, which I think probably comes from the fact that I frankly have a lot more power in my day-to-day life than I did in my teens and twenties. I find myself feeling disempowered much less frequently, so I'm less likely to have this particular emotional response.
I sort of wonder if this is one of the reasons crying is so unwelcome in the workplace. It is (or can be) a highly emotional reaction to feeling disempowered, and it sort of calls attention to all kinds of power structures and abuses of those structures that modern, white-collar workplaces try to pretend don't exist.
posted by lunasol at 2:58 PM on April 2, 2015 [34 favorites]
> "Why 'science'? You think arts people take crying as normal?"
I am in the arts (theater) and my spouse is in the sciences (astrophysics).
Someone crying during a production has happened so many times that, while I don't precisely expect it every show, I certainly take it as a matter of course when it happens.
I do not think my spouse has to deal with that with quite the same frequency. I mean, it *happens*, but I don't think it's, "Oh, this fairly familiar situation, OK."
posted by kyrademon at 3:02 PM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I am in the arts (theater) and my spouse is in the sciences (astrophysics).
Someone crying during a production has happened so many times that, while I don't precisely expect it every show, I certainly take it as a matter of course when it happens.
I do not think my spouse has to deal with that with quite the same frequency. I mean, it *happens*, but I don't think it's, "Oh, this fairly familiar situation, OK."
posted by kyrademon at 3:02 PM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
EMcG, YouTube changed the way to include a start time in a URL. Instead of using '#', you add a 't' parameter, e.g. change
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuyGLDvve-A
to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuyGLDvve-A&t=1m16s
for your video.
posted by benito.strauss at 3:06 PM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuyGLDvve-A
to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuyGLDvve-A&t=1m16s
for your video.
posted by benito.strauss at 3:06 PM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
This is a very formal Fortune 500 financial environment, but I think the workplace angle is the determining factor here.
What is defined as "formal" and "professional" is determined by centuries of institutionalized misogyny that devalues/penalizes what it sees as "feminine" behavior.
posted by NoraReed at 3:18 PM on April 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
What is defined as "formal" and "professional" is determined by centuries of institutionalized misogyny that devalues/penalizes what it sees as "feminine" behavior.
posted by NoraReed at 3:18 PM on April 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
Mod note: Couple comments deleted. The edit window is for typos, not content changes, and editing out personal attacks post facto is potentially bannable behavior. Do not do this. Thanks.
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 3:25 PM on April 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad (staff) at 3:25 PM on April 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
Just because it's work doesn't mean you have to cease being a human being with a soul.
Are you working in an office in some parallel dimension? Who sent you here?!
posted by indubitable at 3:32 PM on April 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Are you working in an office in some parallel dimension? Who sent you here?!
posted by indubitable at 3:32 PM on April 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Just because it's work doesn't mean you have to cease being a human being with a soul.
You don't have to, but an awful lot of employers out there would much rather you did.
posted by mstokes650 at 3:38 PM on April 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
You don't have to, but an awful lot of employers out there would much rather you did.
posted by mstokes650 at 3:38 PM on April 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
What is defined as "formal" and "professional" is determined by centuries of institutionalized misogyny that devalues/penalizes what it sees as "feminine" behavior.
I just assumed stacatto meant that the workplace angle isn't, in their opinion, the determining factor - otherwise the comment doesn't really make any sense?
I think another reason why people can be discomfited with crying in particular, as opposed to other displays of emotion is I think because crying can mean very different things to different people.
I had a manager at one point, who couldn't help crying at anything remotely sentimental. "Oh damn, I'm going to cry" she would say. We actually found it kind of endearing/funny. However, there were other people in that team, and when they were crying it was a really big deal. Also, people like different kinds of responses to their crying, so I can understand why people feel it can be a fraught social interaction and have a lot of anxiety - often poorly manifested anxiety around it. This can be especially rue when they are coming from childhood/family backgrounds where crying has a negative connotation associated with it.
posted by smoke at 3:39 PM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I just assumed stacatto meant that the workplace angle isn't, in their opinion, the determining factor - otherwise the comment doesn't really make any sense?
I think another reason why people can be discomfited with crying in particular, as opposed to other displays of emotion is I think because crying can mean very different things to different people.
I had a manager at one point, who couldn't help crying at anything remotely sentimental. "Oh damn, I'm going to cry" she would say. We actually found it kind of endearing/funny. However, there were other people in that team, and when they were crying it was a really big deal. Also, people like different kinds of responses to their crying, so I can understand why people feel it can be a fraught social interaction and have a lot of anxiety - often poorly manifested anxiety around it. This can be especially rue when they are coming from childhood/family backgrounds where crying has a negative connotation associated with it.
posted by smoke at 3:39 PM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
It makes me uncomfortable when people cry. Crying is a distress signal, and I have a hard time communicating or even thinking clearly when I'm around distress signals.
I don't think less of people who cry easily, but I have a hard time communicating with them while they're in the process of crying, just as I do with someone who is raising their voice in anger or even celebrating overly effusively. (I have a friend with a hair-trigger "WOO!" reflex.)
The double standard where crying in the workplace is considered less professional than displays of anger is just horrible and completely wrong, and stupidly patriarchal. Anger is much much worse.
But not all discomfort with crying is rooted in misogyny.
posted by ernielundquist at 3:42 PM on April 2, 2015 [15 favorites]
I don't think less of people who cry easily, but I have a hard time communicating with them while they're in the process of crying, just as I do with someone who is raising their voice in anger or even celebrating overly effusively. (I have a friend with a hair-trigger "WOO!" reflex.)
The double standard where crying in the workplace is considered less professional than displays of anger is just horrible and completely wrong, and stupidly patriarchal. Anger is much much worse.
But not all discomfort with crying is rooted in misogyny.
posted by ernielundquist at 3:42 PM on April 2, 2015 [15 favorites]
You do not cry in the lab, or yell or throw things. It is perfectly acceptable to leave the lab and go somewhere private if you feel overwhelmed or need to blow off steam (and you will, eventually). Laughing is fine as long as you aren't disturbing anybody. Goofing around is unacceptable unless perhaps you're PhD student in a university setting and it's after hours and you've been in the lab way too long and you're kinda losing your shit a little, in which case benign hijinks are sometimes tolerated but not encouraged. Possible exceptions to the no-crying-rule include tragic patient death (clinical scientists, especially residents) or disastrous project failure following months/years of work (strung-out PhD students). If someone does cry, the polite thing to do is to be understanding, discrete, and to give them space if possible.
posted by dephlogisticated at 3:43 PM on April 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by dephlogisticated at 3:43 PM on April 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
I think another reason why people can be discomfited with crying in particular, as opposed to other displays of emotion is I think because crying can mean very different things to different people.
There are lots of emotional responses that mean different things to different people. Laughter tends to come out in a lot of different situations and different people have very different triggers both for what they find funny and what makes them laugh. My SO is one of those people who just laughs when he's happy, even when nothing is funny. There are also a lot of different kinds of laughter and a lot of them signal "wrongly"-- some people have laughs that sound like cackling supervillains even though they tend mostly to laugh at adorable baby animals or whatever.
posted by NoraReed at 3:47 PM on April 2, 2015
There are lots of emotional responses that mean different things to different people. Laughter tends to come out in a lot of different situations and different people have very different triggers both for what they find funny and what makes them laugh. My SO is one of those people who just laughs when he's happy, even when nothing is funny. There are also a lot of different kinds of laughter and a lot of them signal "wrongly"-- some people have laughs that sound like cackling supervillains even though they tend mostly to laugh at adorable baby animals or whatever.
posted by NoraReed at 3:47 PM on April 2, 2015
I don't think less of people who cry easily, but I have a hard time communicating with them while they're in the process of crying, just as I do with someone who is raising their voice in anger or even celebrating overly effusively.
The double standard where crying in the workplace is considered less professional than displays of anger is just horrible and completely wrong, and stupidly patriarchal. Anger is much much worse.
This matches with my (culturally/societally influenced) feelings, yeah. Someone crying is pretty equivalent to someone shouting in terms of disruption, but at the same time, anger is somehow seen as more appropriate (and even something positive in some instances). The former feels deeply rooted (and it's probably not beneficial to myself that it feels so), but I really don't understand why the latter should be broadly seen as so. (Patriarchy is why it is, but is/ought etc.)
posted by CrystalDave at 3:48 PM on April 2, 2015
The double standard where crying in the workplace is considered less professional than displays of anger is just horrible and completely wrong, and stupidly patriarchal. Anger is much much worse.
This matches with my (culturally/societally influenced) feelings, yeah. Someone crying is pretty equivalent to someone shouting in terms of disruption, but at the same time, anger is somehow seen as more appropriate (and even something positive in some instances). The former feels deeply rooted (and it's probably not beneficial to myself that it feels so), but I really don't understand why the latter should be broadly seen as so. (Patriarchy is why it is, but is/ought etc.)
posted by CrystalDave at 3:48 PM on April 2, 2015
people get freaked out by crying because 1) it's uncomfortable when someone else cries
Yes, it can be uncomfortable when someone cries in front of you. But unless that discomfort is so acute that it makes you cry, it's probably safe to assume the other person is experiencing more discomfort than you are. Maybe you can think, "Hey if this a difficult situation for me, it's a whole lot more difficult for them. Maybe what they're dealing with is more important than my discomfort."
posted by straight at 3:50 PM on April 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
Yes, it can be uncomfortable when someone cries in front of you. But unless that discomfort is so acute that it makes you cry, it's probably safe to assume the other person is experiencing more discomfort than you are. Maybe you can think, "Hey if this a difficult situation for me, it's a whole lot more difficult for them. Maybe what they're dealing with is more important than my discomfort."
posted by straight at 3:50 PM on April 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
You do not cry in the lab, or yell or throw things.
I have never seen anyone throw things in a lab -- I mean, glassware, if nothing else -- but I have seen PLENTY of people yell.
posted by KathrynT at 3:53 PM on April 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
I have never seen anyone throw things in a lab -- I mean, glassware, if nothing else -- but I have seen PLENTY of people yell.
posted by KathrynT at 3:53 PM on April 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
The fact that the person crying is way more likely to get shit than the person displaying a complete lack of empathy towards the person crying is also something that is influenced by patriarchy; it's more acceptable in general to lack positive traits that are coded as feminine (such as empathy) than display feminine-coded emotions *and* it's generally okay to fail to empathize with a woman (because women are such alien creatures we can never understand them amirite) and/or be a dick to someone who is acting "womanly" (by crying).
posted by NoraReed at 3:55 PM on April 2, 2015 [24 favorites]
posted by NoraReed at 3:55 PM on April 2, 2015 [24 favorites]
some people have laughs that sound like cackling supervillains even though they tend mostly to laugh at adorable baby animals or whatever
i told you that iN CONFIDENCE
posted by poffin boffin at 3:59 PM on April 2, 2015 [9 favorites]
i told you that iN CONFIDENCE
posted by poffin boffin at 3:59 PM on April 2, 2015 [9 favorites]
There are lots of emotional responses that mean different things to different people. Laughter tends to come out in a lot of different situations and different people have very different triggers both for what they find funny and what makes them laugh.
This is absolutely true, I think it's fairly uncontroversial to say that most people would say that potential emotional stakes and possible reactions are both higher and wider-ranging with crying than laughter. That has been my experience, at least.
posted by smoke at 3:59 PM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Protip: bitter, angry tears dry faster in front of the fume hood.
(also farts the fume hood is good if you have a fart)
posted by vortex genie 2 at 4:34 PM on April 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
(also farts the fume hood is good if you have a fart)
posted by vortex genie 2 at 4:34 PM on April 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
dephlogististicated - whoa, really? Now I'm really curious, is this at a company affiliated lab?
My experience in the biological sciences has been that since science is your life, you're likely to have the better part of the human experience at work in the lab. Screams/tears of anger (effing up a delicate procedure), fear (effing up a dangerous procedure), pain (dropping something hot/sharp when on too little sleep), hysteria (too little sleep), frustration (yep, no sleep, or anything vaguely grant related) and even joy (beautiful sweet data or the magical moment of a paper being accepted.)
And of course the insane giggles that happen when you had just one drink at the department cocktail hour, but then spent 12 hours in the lab, possibly only eating the crumbled bit of cracker that was stuck in the bottom of your backpack and now it's morning and the tech just came in and asked if you were wearing the same clothes from last night.
I have found science to be gorgeously, messily, human. And sprinkled with tears.
posted by synapse at 4:42 PM on April 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
My experience in the biological sciences has been that since science is your life, you're likely to have the better part of the human experience at work in the lab. Screams/tears of anger (effing up a delicate procedure), fear (effing up a dangerous procedure), pain (dropping something hot/sharp when on too little sleep), hysteria (too little sleep), frustration (yep, no sleep, or anything vaguely grant related) and even joy (beautiful sweet data or the magical moment of a paper being accepted.)
And of course the insane giggles that happen when you had just one drink at the department cocktail hour, but then spent 12 hours in the lab, possibly only eating the crumbled bit of cracker that was stuck in the bottom of your backpack and now it's morning and the tech just came in and asked if you were wearing the same clothes from last night.
I have found science to be gorgeously, messily, human. And sprinkled with tears.
posted by synapse at 4:42 PM on April 2, 2015 [10 favorites]
Italian postdoc (runs into lab): A man is crying in the hallway!
Three Russian postdocs (simultaneously): A man?!?
posted by benzenedream at 5:25 PM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Three Russian postdocs (simultaneously): A man?!?
posted by benzenedream at 5:25 PM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yes, it can be uncomfortable when someone cries in front of you. But unless that discomfort is so acute that it makes you cry, it's probably safe to assume the other person is experiencing more discomfort than you are. Maybe you can think, "Hey if this a difficult situation for me, it's a whole lot more difficult for them. Maybe what they're dealing with is more important than my discomfort."
That's not always true. Maybe they're sometimes more uncomfortable in the sense that crying in public is stigmatized, but crying is not a universal reaction to discomfort. Everyone reacts differently to stressors.
People who cry easily don't have better, stronger, or more legitimate emotions than those who don't, and tears or lack thereof aren't a measure of empathy or any other emotional capacity.
I completely understand that some people can't help but cry sometimes, depending on their individual triggers, and they don't deserve to be derided for it, and I am sympathetic to that, but hell if I'm going to automatically prioritize someone else's discomfort over mine simply because their reaction to stress is to cry and mine isn't.
posted by ernielundquist at 6:52 PM on April 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
That's not always true. Maybe they're sometimes more uncomfortable in the sense that crying in public is stigmatized, but crying is not a universal reaction to discomfort. Everyone reacts differently to stressors.
People who cry easily don't have better, stronger, or more legitimate emotions than those who don't, and tears or lack thereof aren't a measure of empathy or any other emotional capacity.
I completely understand that some people can't help but cry sometimes, depending on their individual triggers, and they don't deserve to be derided for it, and I am sympathetic to that, but hell if I'm going to automatically prioritize someone else's discomfort over mine simply because their reaction to stress is to cry and mine isn't.
posted by ernielundquist at 6:52 PM on April 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
well, as someone who cries a lot but REALLY clams up and doesn't know what to do when someone else is crying, because she is a shy dork... it is a lot harder to get through the embarrassed crying than the embarassed comforting. Just in my experience.
posted by stoneandstar at 7:24 PM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by stoneandstar at 7:24 PM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
My problem with crying in the workplace is simply that it tends to force me to recognize you as a human being, rather than as a semi-autonomous block of wood that moves around, which apparently reacts to the environment, and which occasionally performs actions that are relevant to my tasks.
Anger, meanwhile, is easily categorized as a machine fault that can be sorted out with correct program inputs or, in the worst cases, by forcibly disposing of the affected unit.
posted by aramaic at 7:28 PM on April 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
Anger, meanwhile, is easily categorized as a machine fault that can be sorted out with correct program inputs or, in the worst cases, by forcibly disposing of the affected unit.
posted by aramaic at 7:28 PM on April 2, 2015 [11 favorites]
Is it only crying that forces you to recognize people as human beings rather than semi-autonomous blocks of wood?
Do you see how this is a pretty bad way to frame the issue?
posted by ernielundquist at 7:57 PM on April 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
Do you see how this is a pretty bad way to frame the issue?
posted by ernielundquist at 7:57 PM on April 2, 2015 [6 favorites]
I have never worked in a lab (and in fact have only ever been in one a few times) but I work on the edge of STEM and there is definitely no crying that I have seen, except for a few times by activists and community members in meetings. Never by a professional in a professional setting. It would be stigmatized and frowned upon except when something pretty dire happened -- death, divorce, etc -- and work setbacks wouldn't qualify.
I hear people get told to man up, sack up, or grow a pair all the time, and for a lot less than crying. I'm not saying that this little sub-corner of a field is reflective of STEM as a whole, but the gap between the present situation and being accepting of a full range of emotional expressions is huge.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:12 PM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I hear people get told to man up, sack up, or grow a pair all the time, and for a lot less than crying. I'm not saying that this little sub-corner of a field is reflective of STEM as a whole, but the gap between the present situation and being accepting of a full range of emotional expressions is huge.
posted by Dip Flash at 8:12 PM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Testosterone/hormones to me explain the crying thing. As a woman who cries a lot (thankfully never in front of a boss or professor, but I wouldn't be surprised), sometimes you just... can't not cry.
I can totally believe this. I used to cry at the drop of a hat when I was a little kid and now, untold years after puberty, I often find myself completely unable to cry even when I think it would feel good. But I have friends who are just as emotionally together as I am if not more so who cry a lot. I think it's a lot more like sweating than it is like yelling or throwing things. Some people sweat a lot even with very little exertion; some people just get slightly misty even if they're doing high-intensity intervals. Whatevs. You just mop your brow and get back to work.
You do not cry in the lab, or yell or throw things
lol, this is not at all my experience. In the first lab I teched in people (who were mostly men, but also women) frequently yelled at equipment, each other, the world at large, etc. A while after I started working there I fucked up a gradient gel I had spent a while setting up and yelled "fuck!" really loudly and my boss just grinned at me and said something like "finally." Nobody ever threw anything that I remember, though, except maybe a short distance into a trash can.
posted by en forme de poire at 8:16 PM on April 2, 2015 [7 favorites]
I can totally believe this. I used to cry at the drop of a hat when I was a little kid and now, untold years after puberty, I often find myself completely unable to cry even when I think it would feel good. But I have friends who are just as emotionally together as I am if not more so who cry a lot. I think it's a lot more like sweating than it is like yelling or throwing things. Some people sweat a lot even with very little exertion; some people just get slightly misty even if they're doing high-intensity intervals. Whatevs. You just mop your brow and get back to work.
You do not cry in the lab, or yell or throw things
lol, this is not at all my experience. In the first lab I teched in people (who were mostly men, but also women) frequently yelled at equipment, each other, the world at large, etc. A while after I started working there I fucked up a gradient gel I had spent a while setting up and yelled "fuck!" really loudly and my boss just grinned at me and said something like "finally." Nobody ever threw anything that I remember, though, except maybe a short distance into a trash can.
posted by en forme de poire at 8:16 PM on April 2, 2015 [7 favorites]
Also something like thirty percent of thesis defenses I've seen have involved the presenter tearing up during the acknowledgements section.
posted by en forme de poire at 8:21 PM on April 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 8:21 PM on April 2, 2015 [8 favorites]
I think that the analogy of physically uncontrollable crying to vomiting or diarrhea is apt. I get that some folks can't help themselves, but that doesn't mean that I want it around me, especially in a professional setting.
If you're in a meeting with a colleague and you feel the sudden urge to throw up, the right answer is to do what you can to either stifle the urge or remove yourself from the situation. Crying is only slightly different in that there are times when crying is appropriate, but in the presence of people who are trying to get work done, it really rarely is. And I say this as a woman who has had to deal with some *shit* while at work -- I've never had an issue with getting up, going outside/to another room/etc. to avoid making my personal problems into my coworkers' problems -- it's not even a question of professionalism. Just seems like basic human decency to me.
And yeah, this absolutely isn't a gender thing, except that I think that women get a pass on public crying that I don't think men do (because supposedly we can't help ourselves).
posted by sparklemotion at 9:04 PM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you're in a meeting with a colleague and you feel the sudden urge to throw up, the right answer is to do what you can to either stifle the urge or remove yourself from the situation. Crying is only slightly different in that there are times when crying is appropriate, but in the presence of people who are trying to get work done, it really rarely is. And I say this as a woman who has had to deal with some *shit* while at work -- I've never had an issue with getting up, going outside/to another room/etc. to avoid making my personal problems into my coworkers' problems -- it's not even a question of professionalism. Just seems like basic human decency to me.
And yeah, this absolutely isn't a gender thing, except that I think that women get a pass on public crying that I don't think men do (because supposedly we can't help ourselves).
posted by sparklemotion at 9:04 PM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, sparklemotion, if you think anytime a cryer is going to cry they should just have to get up and leave, you are pretty unavoidably saying that people who can't control this response in certain situations don't deserve to be in those situations at all, which... maybe in high powered professions is the cold hard truth, but it is quite assy. If you "supposedly" can't understand the issue.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:30 PM on April 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by stoneandstar at 9:30 PM on April 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
Is it only crying that forces you to recognize people as human beings rather than semi-autonomous blocks of wood?
No.
Do you see how this is a pretty bad way to frame the issue?
You mean as a dumb straw man? Why yes, it is.
Is not about who can feel the most empathy or who has the most emotions, it's about having consideration for someone who is trying to express themselves but can't fight back crying, the way you'd have consideration for anyone having trouble physically speaking to you. Crying is distressing for many reasons so having an extra push of sympathy is a good thing to do, even if seeing someone cry is uncomfortable. I guess you have the right to shun them instead? But they're probably not typically doing it on purpose to disturb you so it just seems like both parties pushing through is the best way to make communication happen.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:34 PM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
No.
Do you see how this is a pretty bad way to frame the issue?
You mean as a dumb straw man? Why yes, it is.
Is not about who can feel the most empathy or who has the most emotions, it's about having consideration for someone who is trying to express themselves but can't fight back crying, the way you'd have consideration for anyone having trouble physically speaking to you. Crying is distressing for many reasons so having an extra push of sympathy is a good thing to do, even if seeing someone cry is uncomfortable. I guess you have the right to shun them instead? But they're probably not typically doing it on purpose to disturb you so it just seems like both parties pushing through is the best way to make communication happen.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:34 PM on April 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Maybe it's just a Seattle thing, but in my experience pretty much any time someone is crying in public they are presumed to be having a mental breakdown of some sort. You just don't do that. Cry in private, don't make a scene, don't dump the weight of whatever you're dealing with on everyone else, that's the way.
I can't imagine seeing someone cry at work, unless they'd just been fired.
posted by Mars Saxman at 10:54 PM on April 2, 2015
I can't imagine seeing someone cry at work, unless they'd just been fired.
posted by Mars Saxman at 10:54 PM on April 2, 2015
But what I most hope is that people stop viewing crying as someone being immature or emotionally manipulative, and instead view it as a natural form of emotion that simply indicates that the person is passionate or stressed or concerned or tired or anxious or frustrated – or, more simply, that they are human.
I thought this was a good article. Thinking about the times I've cried at work...and at home... they all come down to something so incredibly shitty hitting my brain that my brain broke open and there was no more coping to be had that day. Shitty things people did and said to each other and to me. Perhaps those of us who cry would cry less if shitty things like this didn't happen. And if people had more empathy for someone whose brain is having a bad problem right now because you broke it with your shit.
posted by bleep at 11:59 PM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I thought this was a good article. Thinking about the times I've cried at work...and at home... they all come down to something so incredibly shitty hitting my brain that my brain broke open and there was no more coping to be had that day. Shitty things people did and said to each other and to me. Perhaps those of us who cry would cry less if shitty things like this didn't happen. And if people had more empathy for someone whose brain is having a bad problem right now because you broke it with your shit.
posted by bleep at 11:59 PM on April 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I really don't understand the strong negative reaction people have to crying and the insistence that it has no place in the workplace. Maybe it's just because I am in academia (like the author of the post), but crying is just one of those things that happens sometimes. It is a way that some people show sadness, anger, frustration, or embarassment. They usually can't help it. That does not make them bad people. Especially when those people are 18 and being held responsible for their actions for the first time in their lives, it seems pretty inevitable.
I vastly prefer crying to red-faced irrational yelling, which seems to be much more socially acceptable in certain circles.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:29 AM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
I vastly prefer crying to red-faced irrational yelling, which seems to be much more socially acceptable in certain circles.
posted by hydropsyche at 4:29 AM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
So why is it that scientists and academics can get so freaked out by a colleague or student crying?
Echoing the sentiments above that the attitude that this is somehow particular to Science and Academia is myopic and totally wrong. I think that crying freaks people out in pretty much ANY Workplace or Adult situation. And I think that part of the reason why is that it makes a demand on the other person to at least pretend to give a shit. Its like being asked for money on the street when you are in a hurry to get a train.
I have never really enjoyed the company of my colleagues that much and having to deal with one of them crying would just be annoying. I really just don't care that much. Can't they suck it in and behave like an adult and cry in the bathrooms or something?
I also find it odd that these days "Emotionality" is often called upon as that which specifies the "essence" of the human. Crying, yelling, "irrationality" as such is considered the classifying quality of the human. Whereas for Plato, Aristotle, Descartes etc its often the very opposite - it was reason and rationality that determined the human animal against other animals.
Perhaps because they were trying to exceptionalize the human against a ground of animals and inanimate matter. whereas for us the threat to our exceptionality has become the computer.
With the rise of computers it seems that the de-humanification of rationality has come about.
Is a rational and reasonable response a better response than an emotional response? It certainly has been considered so by many in history. the Stoics, Spinoza, Hume (kinda)....
posted by mary8nne at 5:06 AM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
Echoing the sentiments above that the attitude that this is somehow particular to Science and Academia is myopic and totally wrong. I think that crying freaks people out in pretty much ANY Workplace or Adult situation. And I think that part of the reason why is that it makes a demand on the other person to at least pretend to give a shit. Its like being asked for money on the street when you are in a hurry to get a train.
I have never really enjoyed the company of my colleagues that much and having to deal with one of them crying would just be annoying. I really just don't care that much. Can't they suck it in and behave like an adult and cry in the bathrooms or something?
I also find it odd that these days "Emotionality" is often called upon as that which specifies the "essence" of the human. Crying, yelling, "irrationality" as such is considered the classifying quality of the human. Whereas for Plato, Aristotle, Descartes etc its often the very opposite - it was reason and rationality that determined the human animal against other animals.
Perhaps because they were trying to exceptionalize the human against a ground of animals and inanimate matter. whereas for us the threat to our exceptionality has become the computer.
With the rise of computers it seems that the de-humanification of rationality has come about.
Is a rational and reasonable response a better response than an emotional response? It certainly has been considered so by many in history. the Stoics, Spinoza, Hume (kinda)....
posted by mary8nne at 5:06 AM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
Is a rational and reasonable response a better response than an emotional response? It certainly has been considered so by many in history.
If it wasn't for metafilter, I don't know where I'd go to watch a debate over the superiority of reason or emotion. Old episodes of Star Trek, I guess.
In summary, then, more crying in science, more giggles in law, and more pants-shitting in politics. Wait, strike that—there's probably enough pants-shitting in politics already.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:47 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
If it wasn't for metafilter, I don't know where I'd go to watch a debate over the superiority of reason or emotion. Old episodes of Star Trek, I guess.
In summary, then, more crying in science, more giggles in law, and more pants-shitting in politics. Wait, strike that—there's probably enough pants-shitting in politics already.
posted by octobersurprise at 5:47 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't see a single person here saying that rationality and reason are bad. I see a lot of people (include the FPP) saying that sometimes people have emotions, and they're not bad people for having them.
posted by hydropsyche at 6:02 AM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by hydropsyche at 6:02 AM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
I've been a people manager at various times in my career and I've never had a female direct report cry in my presence. I have had a couple instances where a female colleague has done so in the privacy of my office. I offered them tissues, just sat and listened and then never told anyone. To be honest, I like when people show emotion, it's evidence they actually care. It's really only a problem when it dominates their interactions.
Anecdata: I'm a guy and I cry easily, more easily than my wife.
posted by tommasz at 6:17 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Anecdata: I'm a guy and I cry easily, more easily than my wife.
posted by tommasz at 6:17 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
I vastly prefer crying to red-faced irrational yelling, which seems to be much more socially acceptable in certain circles.
This. Particularly given that, in my particular academic environment, being on the receiving end of the latter is the primary cause of the former.
posted by pemberkins at 6:20 AM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
This. Particularly given that, in my particular academic environment, being on the receiving end of the latter is the primary cause of the former.
posted by pemberkins at 6:20 AM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
I have never really enjoyed the company of my colleagues that much and having to deal with one of them crying would just be annoying. I really just don't care that much. Can't they suck it in and behave like an adult and cry in the bathrooms or something?
You don't have to be soulmates with someone to feel compassion for them when they are suffering. And it's not "childish" to feel or express emotion, though that attitude is certainly common.
I used to be more of a hardass about these things when I was younger, but after going to many funerals (including my parents, and those of friends who killed themselves), having a kid, nearly losing a marriage, and in general suffering life's slings and arrows, my tough exterior's been considerably thinned. Life fucks with all of us in profound ways. You can't always shuck off a trauma even when you also have to be a work. And once you've had a fair number of traumas of your own, it's easier to imagine what your crying colleague might be going through.
I fail at this often. Practicing compassion is inconvenient, it messes with the schedule, it's awkward and uncomfortable and you never really know if you're doing it correctly. Still, it's better to go over and offer someone a box of tissues and maybe even to sit and listen to them than it is to silently stew in your cubicle, angry at them for daring to suffer in your presence.
posted by emjaybee at 7:12 AM on April 3, 2015 [14 favorites]
You don't have to be soulmates with someone to feel compassion for them when they are suffering. And it's not "childish" to feel or express emotion, though that attitude is certainly common.
I used to be more of a hardass about these things when I was younger, but after going to many funerals (including my parents, and those of friends who killed themselves), having a kid, nearly losing a marriage, and in general suffering life's slings and arrows, my tough exterior's been considerably thinned. Life fucks with all of us in profound ways. You can't always shuck off a trauma even when you also have to be a work. And once you've had a fair number of traumas of your own, it's easier to imagine what your crying colleague might be going through.
I fail at this often. Practicing compassion is inconvenient, it messes with the schedule, it's awkward and uncomfortable and you never really know if you're doing it correctly. Still, it's better to go over and offer someone a box of tissues and maybe even to sit and listen to them than it is to silently stew in your cubicle, angry at them for daring to suffer in your presence.
posted by emjaybee at 7:12 AM on April 3, 2015 [14 favorites]
Is not about who can feel the most empathy or who has the most emotions, it's about having consideration for someone who is trying to express themselves but can't fight back crying, the way you'd have consideration for anyone having trouble physically speaking to you. Crying is distressing for many reasons so having an extra push of sympathy is a good thing to do, even if seeing someone cry is uncomfortable. I guess you have the right to shun them instead? But they're probably not typically doing it on purpose to disturb you so it just seems like both parties pushing through is the best way to make communication happen.
Of course I don't shun them. I've been explicit about that, and that's a horrible thing to imply.
I'm taking issue with the implication that crying is a universal response, and that it is clearly and explicitly gendered behavior. Yes, the double standards in how we perceive different types of emotional displays are heavily influenced by gender, as evidenced by the fact that for the most part, angry outbursts are considered appropriate professional behavior in many areas where crying is not. That's not cool. But crying isn't either universally or exclusively a female behavior, even though the numbers lean that way. Some people cry, some don't.
I was working in not one but two separate industries when their bubbles popped, so I have seen a lot of people lose their jobs--I've been at two different companies that went under entirely--and I've been in a lot of pretty toxic environments during those times, where companies were taking advantage of the desperation in the job market as well. So in addition to the normal death and divorce type work crying, I've been in big mass 'layoffs' where everyone in the room was experiencing the same core stressor. Some cry, some don't. (I've seen more men than women cry at work, but that's probably because most of my coworkers were men.) Everyone is hurting in those situations, and I'm sure there was a little added stress from crying in public as well, but probably not too much because they had company.
People just respond to stress differently. Of course someone who responds by crying shouldn't be shunned or thought less of for that. I absolutely believe people when they say that the urge comes up on them and they can't contain it. But I am saying that you need to believe other people when they say that they might be hurting just as badly and under just as much stress as you, and the fact that they're not crying doesn't mean they're not. People's crying triggers are set at all different levels, so if one person is crying due to a minor frustration, the dry-eyed person you're expecting to be compassionate might be dealing with something far far worse. If people who cry easily want others to be understanding and tolerant of their responses, they need to reciprocate.
Further, as a woman who, I just discovered from that link I posted, cries way less than anyone else in the world, I've gotten negative feedback for not responding to stress with tears. For one thing, I'm expected to be the one to handle difficult situations even when I'm the one primarily affected, which isn't gendered. For another, though, I've had people assume I'm deceptive or heartless because I am not responding the way they think women do.
I got a call at work one day that a young family member I was close to had been killed in an extremely sudden, violent way, and I had to leave immediately to go take care of the situation. I later found out that my supervisor had told some of my coworkers I was obviously lying and just trying to get a few days off work because she didn't think my demeanor fit the situation.
I was violently assaulted once and the police refused to pursue the attacker because I was not crying when they took my report, so the senior cop told the junior one I was exaggerating or outright lying about it. (And I think the junior cop probably told me about it because she knew he was wrong.)
Everyone experiences pain and stress. Some people cry. Some don't. Crying is not an objective or universal measure of stress or empathy or anything, really. And while there is a gender element to the perception of crying, it's not an inherently or exclusively gendered reaction.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:21 AM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
Of course I don't shun them. I've been explicit about that, and that's a horrible thing to imply.
I'm taking issue with the implication that crying is a universal response, and that it is clearly and explicitly gendered behavior. Yes, the double standards in how we perceive different types of emotional displays are heavily influenced by gender, as evidenced by the fact that for the most part, angry outbursts are considered appropriate professional behavior in many areas where crying is not. That's not cool. But crying isn't either universally or exclusively a female behavior, even though the numbers lean that way. Some people cry, some don't.
I was working in not one but two separate industries when their bubbles popped, so I have seen a lot of people lose their jobs--I've been at two different companies that went under entirely--and I've been in a lot of pretty toxic environments during those times, where companies were taking advantage of the desperation in the job market as well. So in addition to the normal death and divorce type work crying, I've been in big mass 'layoffs' where everyone in the room was experiencing the same core stressor. Some cry, some don't. (I've seen more men than women cry at work, but that's probably because most of my coworkers were men.) Everyone is hurting in those situations, and I'm sure there was a little added stress from crying in public as well, but probably not too much because they had company.
People just respond to stress differently. Of course someone who responds by crying shouldn't be shunned or thought less of for that. I absolutely believe people when they say that the urge comes up on them and they can't contain it. But I am saying that you need to believe other people when they say that they might be hurting just as badly and under just as much stress as you, and the fact that they're not crying doesn't mean they're not. People's crying triggers are set at all different levels, so if one person is crying due to a minor frustration, the dry-eyed person you're expecting to be compassionate might be dealing with something far far worse. If people who cry easily want others to be understanding and tolerant of their responses, they need to reciprocate.
Further, as a woman who, I just discovered from that link I posted, cries way less than anyone else in the world, I've gotten negative feedback for not responding to stress with tears. For one thing, I'm expected to be the one to handle difficult situations even when I'm the one primarily affected, which isn't gendered. For another, though, I've had people assume I'm deceptive or heartless because I am not responding the way they think women do.
I got a call at work one day that a young family member I was close to had been killed in an extremely sudden, violent way, and I had to leave immediately to go take care of the situation. I later found out that my supervisor had told some of my coworkers I was obviously lying and just trying to get a few days off work because she didn't think my demeanor fit the situation.
I was violently assaulted once and the police refused to pursue the attacker because I was not crying when they took my report, so the senior cop told the junior one I was exaggerating or outright lying about it. (And I think the junior cop probably told me about it because she knew he was wrong.)
Everyone experiences pain and stress. Some people cry. Some don't. Crying is not an objective or universal measure of stress or empathy or anything, really. And while there is a gender element to the perception of crying, it's not an inherently or exclusively gendered reaction.
posted by ernielundquist at 9:21 AM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
Is a rational and reasonable response a better response than an emotional response?
This is virtually always a false dichotomy.
posted by KathrynT at 9:23 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is virtually always a false dichotomy.
posted by KathrynT at 9:23 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
I don't think saying "It's a human thing to cry, and not that big a deal in and of itself, especially for some with certain configurations" is the same as saying "All humans must cry" or "All humans of __ type must cry".
posted by bleep at 9:27 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by bleep at 9:27 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
But I am saying that you need to believe other people when they say that they might be hurting just as badly and under just as much stress as you, and the fact that they're not crying doesn't mean they're not.
I don't know who here actually doesn't believe this though? I know that at least half of the time when I'm crying, I'm thinking "wtf am I crying over?!?" This doesn't exactly translate to me demanding that people prove their emotions with tears.
What I was saying, at least, was that if you're not a crier, then when someone is crying, the nice thing to do is offer them some tissues and accept that they're human, instead of thinking "what a baby" or "I don't have time for this, why are they doing this to me!!"
Your experience with the police is very depressing but often crying women get a similar response, are told they're being hysterical, etc. I've cried in front of police and they treated me like I was insane or trying to "get out of it" (I wasn't even doing anything illegal in this situation, I was a minor and they "caught me" hanging out with my boyfriend near a road). I think as a woman you kind of can't win in a lot of this situations, crying or no.
Of course it's not strictly gendered-- I've known lots of men who cry and lots of women I've never seen cry once. But crying itself is viewed as weak and womanly regardless of who is doing it, so the response often tends to be misogynist.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:42 AM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
I don't know who here actually doesn't believe this though? I know that at least half of the time when I'm crying, I'm thinking "wtf am I crying over?!?" This doesn't exactly translate to me demanding that people prove their emotions with tears.
What I was saying, at least, was that if you're not a crier, then when someone is crying, the nice thing to do is offer them some tissues and accept that they're human, instead of thinking "what a baby" or "I don't have time for this, why are they doing this to me!!"
Your experience with the police is very depressing but often crying women get a similar response, are told they're being hysterical, etc. I've cried in front of police and they treated me like I was insane or trying to "get out of it" (I wasn't even doing anything illegal in this situation, I was a minor and they "caught me" hanging out with my boyfriend near a road). I think as a woman you kind of can't win in a lot of this situations, crying or no.
Of course it's not strictly gendered-- I've known lots of men who cry and lots of women I've never seen cry once. But crying itself is viewed as weak and womanly regardless of who is doing it, so the response often tends to be misogynist.
posted by stoneandstar at 9:42 AM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
straight: Yes, it can be uncomfortable when someone cries in front of you. But unless that discomfort is so acute that it makes you cry, it's probably safe to assume the other person is experiencing more discomfort than you are.ernielundquist: But I am saying that you need to believe other people when they say that they might be hurting just as badly and under just as much stress as you, and the fact that they're not crying doesn't mean they're not.stoneandstar: I don't know who here actually doesn't believe this though?
posted by sparklemotion at 9:57 AM on April 3, 2015
Mod note: A few comments removed; arguing by comparison that crying is like assault or sexual harassment is a really unnecessarily charged direction to take this.
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:24 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by cortex (staff) at 10:24 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
straight: Yes, it can be uncomfortable when someone cries in front of you. But unless that discomfort is so acute that it makes you cry, it's probably safe to assume the other person is experiencing more discomfort than you are.
I'm assuming straight meant "experiencing more discomfort due to their current problems than you are experiencing simply by seeing them cry," not that people who cry are capable of bigger feelings than people who don't.
posted by jaguar at 10:27 AM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'm assuming straight meant "experiencing more discomfort due to their current problems than you are experiencing simply by seeing them cry," not that people who cry are capable of bigger feelings than people who don't.
posted by jaguar at 10:27 AM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
I think its fair to make the point that there is no clear line between supposedly "good" or acceptable emotional responses and unacceptable ones. And that part of the civilising influence that education has on children is towards containment of emotional responses.
In this respect crying is "childish".
posted by mary8nne at 10:33 AM on April 3, 2015
In this respect crying is "childish".
posted by mary8nne at 10:33 AM on April 3, 2015
And never crying is often emotionally stunted.
So there's a huge middle ground there, and just because something is the current status quo does not mean it's more "civilized" than a different state of affairs.
posted by jaguar at 10:38 AM on April 3, 2015
So there's a huge middle ground there, and just because something is the current status quo does not mean it's more "civilized" than a different state of affairs.
posted by jaguar at 10:38 AM on April 3, 2015
And that part of the civilising influence that education has on children is towards containment of emotional responses.
In this respect crying is "childish".
Why is it more childish than laughing, "woo!"-ing, or yelling?
posted by KathrynT at 10:53 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
In this respect crying is "childish".
Why is it more childish than laughing, "woo!"-ing, or yelling?
posted by KathrynT at 10:53 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Why is it more childish than laughing, "woo!"-ing, or yelling?
I think most people in this thread can agree that yelling (in anger), like crying, is an expression of a negative emotion and thus is behooves non anti-social humans to avoid it in situations where it's inappropriate.
Laughing, and "woo!"-ing are generally speaking, expressions of more positive emotions. Therefore, when they can be shared, they are more likely to increase happiness in a group -- not such a bad goal for non anti-social humans.
That being said of course, there are plenty of situations where even the expression of these positive emotions isn't really acceptable. Laughing or "woo!"-ing at the misfortune of others, for example. Or laughing or "woo!"-ing in an environment where quiet work or other contemplation is called for. Same with laughing or "woo!"-ing in many situations where crying is appropriate (I can think of obvious exceptions to this... Mr. Motion wants jokes told at his funeral, etc).
posted by sparklemotion at 11:05 AM on April 3, 2015
I think most people in this thread can agree that yelling (in anger), like crying, is an expression of a negative emotion and thus is behooves non anti-social humans to avoid it in situations where it's inappropriate.
Laughing, and "woo!"-ing are generally speaking, expressions of more positive emotions. Therefore, when they can be shared, they are more likely to increase happiness in a group -- not such a bad goal for non anti-social humans.
That being said of course, there are plenty of situations where even the expression of these positive emotions isn't really acceptable. Laughing or "woo!"-ing at the misfortune of others, for example. Or laughing or "woo!"-ing in an environment where quiet work or other contemplation is called for. Same with laughing or "woo!"-ing in many situations where crying is appropriate (I can think of obvious exceptions to this... Mr. Motion wants jokes told at his funeral, etc).
posted by sparklemotion at 11:05 AM on April 3, 2015
I think most people in this thread can agree that yelling (in anger), like crying, is an expression of a negative emotion and thus is behooves non anti-social humans to avoid it in situations where it's inappropriate.
And yet yelling in anger is tolerated or even admired in many circumstances where crying is absolutely verboten.
posted by KathrynT at 11:07 AM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
And yet yelling in anger is tolerated or even admired in many circumstances where crying is absolutely verboten.
posted by KathrynT at 11:07 AM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
Guy here, used to cry (just tearing up, not the snotty nosed bawling kind) at the drop of a hat when I was a kid.
At my first job as a molecular biology research associate, I teared up one day in front of my supervisor when my last hopes for med school got dashed. That was super awkward.
Almost did once during my MSc when I went into my first committee meeting utterly unprepared by my supervisor. Managed to go on a long walk before letting it out.
Never seen nor heard of anyone crying at my PhD lab/centre despite the standard grad school saga/tragedy. Lots of shenanigans were had, though.
At my frustrating dead end stupid industrial postdoc I wanted to many days but never did. Once I got in my car at the end of those days and lit a cigarette, whoah boy, did the floodgates open.
I think it might be a little bit that science still has enough of the old boys club mentality and a little bit that being a "Scientist" requires one to be professional and in control of oneself at all times. The nobility and dignity of pursuing a quest for the Truth and all that.
So, while crying is mostly an autonomic process, it should be controlled like other socially unacceptable mostly autonomic processes like farting/burping (override the process: hold in the tears) or if one must sneeze, to sneeze into one's elbow (minimize its effects on others: recuse yourself from others, do it in private).
posted by porpoise at 11:07 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
At my first job as a molecular biology research associate, I teared up one day in front of my supervisor when my last hopes for med school got dashed. That was super awkward.
Almost did once during my MSc when I went into my first committee meeting utterly unprepared by my supervisor. Managed to go on a long walk before letting it out.
Never seen nor heard of anyone crying at my PhD lab/centre despite the standard grad school saga/tragedy. Lots of shenanigans were had, though.
At my frustrating dead end stupid industrial postdoc I wanted to many days but never did. Once I got in my car at the end of those days and lit a cigarette, whoah boy, did the floodgates open.
I think it might be a little bit that science still has enough of the old boys club mentality and a little bit that being a "Scientist" requires one to be professional and in control of oneself at all times. The nobility and dignity of pursuing a quest for the Truth and all that.
So, while crying is mostly an autonomic process, it should be controlled like other socially unacceptable mostly autonomic processes like farting/burping (override the process: hold in the tears) or if one must sneeze, to sneeze into one's elbow (minimize its effects on others: recuse yourself from others, do it in private).
posted by porpoise at 11:07 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
And yet yelling in anger is tolerated or even admired in many circumstances where crying is absolutely verboten.
This is a bad situation and it would be better to change that, yes. The answer is less yelling, not more crying.
posted by sparklemotion at 11:17 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is a bad situation and it would be better to change that, yes. The answer is less yelling, not more crying.
posted by sparklemotion at 11:17 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
In response to sparklemotion:
straight: Yes, it can be uncomfortable when someone cries in front of you. But unless that discomfort is so acute that it makes you cry, it's probably safe to assume the other person is experiencing more discomfort than you are.
The point of this comment isn't that if you're not crying, you're not feeling as many emotions as someone is, though. The point is that your discomfort that results from someone crying probably isn't as bad as the emotions that are making them cry, possibly in front of someone they don't know well, or only know at work. There is a possibility that due to some past situation or trauma, watching someone cry is profoundly upsetting to you, but for most people I would think the awkwardness of someone else crying is not so bad as actually uncontrollably crying somewhere like work. I don't like it when someone cries in front of me-- it's awkward!-- but it's not as bad as being the embarassed crier, usually, so I try to be understanding.
It doesn't mean that if you have two people, and both of their mothers pass away, the one who is crying is sadder about their loss. That's what people don't seem to be saying here.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:29 AM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
straight: Yes, it can be uncomfortable when someone cries in front of you. But unless that discomfort is so acute that it makes you cry, it's probably safe to assume the other person is experiencing more discomfort than you are.
The point of this comment isn't that if you're not crying, you're not feeling as many emotions as someone is, though. The point is that your discomfort that results from someone crying probably isn't as bad as the emotions that are making them cry, possibly in front of someone they don't know well, or only know at work. There is a possibility that due to some past situation or trauma, watching someone cry is profoundly upsetting to you, but for most people I would think the awkwardness of someone else crying is not so bad as actually uncontrollably crying somewhere like work. I don't like it when someone cries in front of me-- it's awkward!-- but it's not as bad as being the embarassed crier, usually, so I try to be understanding.
It doesn't mean that if you have two people, and both of their mothers pass away, the one who is crying is sadder about their loss. That's what people don't seem to be saying here.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:29 AM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
It's interesting to me that some people seem to be characterizing crying as an action that can and should be inhibited, while characterizing their response to witnessing crying (e.g., feeling uncomfortable, annoyed, or put-upon) as an autonomous, inevitable reaction. I feel like it's exactly the other way around.
posted by en forme de poire at 2:03 PM on April 3, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by en forme de poire at 2:03 PM on April 3, 2015 [11 favorites]
I'd really like to disentangle sex from gender in addressing this issue of crying. I have an atypically wide range of personal experiences of this, having had twenty years of professional life living as a woman before gender transitioning to male, and physically having experienced a number of extremely different hormonal milieux. I have lived with the estrogen-dominant hormonal balance typical of women; I experienced the high-progesterone hormonal balance of the gestating person; I lived for several years after removal of my reproductive organs in an almost sex-steroid-free hormonal situation; and now I live with the testosterone-dominant hormonal balance typical of men.
One thing I can tell you is that under all of these different hormonal arrays, I have remained the same person, with the same range of emotions. But the likelihood that I would cry has changed drastically.
Another thing I can tell you is that it's not that testosterone somehow imbued me with stoicism. I cried very easily, much to my personal discomfort in professional situations, for much of my life (my grandmother, another person easily brought to tears, would joke that our kidneys were too close to our eyes). I cried when sad, when embarrassed, when feeling patronized, when experiencing sympathy from another. But this cut off drastically, almost completely, when I had my gonadal source of estrogen and progesterone surgically removed. After an extremely uncomfortable rapid medical menopause, I found my embodied experiences as a person with negligible levels of any sex steroid hormone very different. I not only lost the urge to cry, I lost my libido (now that I missed), much of my appetite, and I went from a lifetime of sleeping 8.5 hours a night to sleeping only 4.5 hours. Three years later, when I started my medical gender transition with testosterone therapy, my sleeping, appetite, and libido rebounded. . . but my crying did not. I can still cry (as I could when I was virtually sex-steroid empty)--I certainly sobbed when my father died--but it only happens when I am very upset
No, it's not testosterone that's the operative hormone here, it's estrogen--and more so, progesterone. Billions of people are familiar with a greater likelihood of crying when premenstrual (though of course, experiences vary). But going through a pregnancy, with its sustained high levels of progesterone, was truly an eye-opening and trying stretch of waterworks for me. Every single sappy TV commercial made me cry, and I felt really frustrated that I could be so easily manipulated into tears by marketing departments. Half the time I listened to music I would wind up crying. I cried at kind words, at sunsets, at difficult work assignments, and for no reason at all other than that I felt exhausted. Rationally speaking, it shouldn't have meant anything other than that progesterone is a hormone that facilitates crying. But the problem was that people treated me as irrational.
And that's gendered culture talking.
I've never been comfortable crying in a classroom or work situation, in part because of my own personal gender dysphoria issues, but mostly because it's stigmatized due to patriarchy. You know how sexism works: it can take any basically meaningless physical average difference between women and men, and load it with meaning. Your average cis man is a bit taller than your average cis women (though the range of height differences within a given binary sex category is much larger than that average difference). So, your average women can fit in a slightly smaller space than your average man, while your typical man can reach a slightly higher shelf than your typical woman. Who cares? Well, we do, because patriarchy comes along and loads height with meaning, so that when we speak of a person of great stature, we don't just mean someone unusually tall. If we can ignore centuries of gendered cultural beliefs, we can see there are advantages to being smaller as well as advantages to being bigger. Evolutionarily, I suppose there are advantages to crying easily (people notice and respond if you are distressed) and to crying rarely (no unintentionally alerting predators by your sobbing). Perhaps we evolved so that progesterone would make pregnant individuals cry more easily because they are a precious resource to the community, and caring for them particularly important. Who knows?
But patriarchy has loaded the average greater ease with which women cry with gender ideology that stigmatizes crying as weak, unprofessional, uncivilized. And this puts people who cry easily--the majority of them women, but some of them men (and these subjected to probably the highest rates of stigma) in a bad position.
Personally, this whole topic makes me feel weird, because I can't tell you what a relief it was to be able to leave behind decades of crying easily, with the social awkwardness and baggage of being treated as irrational, as lesser, that that entailed. But what that relief reflects is in essence male privilege. (I mean, yeah, what it technically reflects is having low levels of estrogen and progesterone, but what's really relevant here is cultural gender inequality.) There are some aspects of gender transition from female to male that it's possible for me to simply celebrate--I love how my hairline receded! It's a masculine feature and it makes me a lot more comfortable with how my face looks, and because contemporary society isn't particularly into male pattern baldness, I can feel pretty sure this is just me enjoying living my male truth. But with a lot of changes, the positives are not just personal, but getting to enjoy the social benefits of male privilege--having male colleagues be much less likely to interrupt me, for example. And yes, of course, it feels much better to enjoy a privilege than to be marginalized, and one has to own one's privileges, but to go around celebrating having them certainly doesn't seem right. I mean, as a white person my response to recognizing that I have white privilege should be to try to fight racial inequality, not do a happy dance about my having racial privilege.
Still, I tell you, I am so relieved now to be able to live as one of those people who cry rarely.
posted by DrMew at 11:09 PM on April 3, 2015 [23 favorites]
One thing I can tell you is that under all of these different hormonal arrays, I have remained the same person, with the same range of emotions. But the likelihood that I would cry has changed drastically.
Another thing I can tell you is that it's not that testosterone somehow imbued me with stoicism. I cried very easily, much to my personal discomfort in professional situations, for much of my life (my grandmother, another person easily brought to tears, would joke that our kidneys were too close to our eyes). I cried when sad, when embarrassed, when feeling patronized, when experiencing sympathy from another. But this cut off drastically, almost completely, when I had my gonadal source of estrogen and progesterone surgically removed. After an extremely uncomfortable rapid medical menopause, I found my embodied experiences as a person with negligible levels of any sex steroid hormone very different. I not only lost the urge to cry, I lost my libido (now that I missed), much of my appetite, and I went from a lifetime of sleeping 8.5 hours a night to sleeping only 4.5 hours. Three years later, when I started my medical gender transition with testosterone therapy, my sleeping, appetite, and libido rebounded. . . but my crying did not. I can still cry (as I could when I was virtually sex-steroid empty)--I certainly sobbed when my father died--but it only happens when I am very upset
No, it's not testosterone that's the operative hormone here, it's estrogen--and more so, progesterone. Billions of people are familiar with a greater likelihood of crying when premenstrual (though of course, experiences vary). But going through a pregnancy, with its sustained high levels of progesterone, was truly an eye-opening and trying stretch of waterworks for me. Every single sappy TV commercial made me cry, and I felt really frustrated that I could be so easily manipulated into tears by marketing departments. Half the time I listened to music I would wind up crying. I cried at kind words, at sunsets, at difficult work assignments, and for no reason at all other than that I felt exhausted. Rationally speaking, it shouldn't have meant anything other than that progesterone is a hormone that facilitates crying. But the problem was that people treated me as irrational.
And that's gendered culture talking.
I've never been comfortable crying in a classroom or work situation, in part because of my own personal gender dysphoria issues, but mostly because it's stigmatized due to patriarchy. You know how sexism works: it can take any basically meaningless physical average difference between women and men, and load it with meaning. Your average cis man is a bit taller than your average cis women (though the range of height differences within a given binary sex category is much larger than that average difference). So, your average women can fit in a slightly smaller space than your average man, while your typical man can reach a slightly higher shelf than your typical woman. Who cares? Well, we do, because patriarchy comes along and loads height with meaning, so that when we speak of a person of great stature, we don't just mean someone unusually tall. If we can ignore centuries of gendered cultural beliefs, we can see there are advantages to being smaller as well as advantages to being bigger. Evolutionarily, I suppose there are advantages to crying easily (people notice and respond if you are distressed) and to crying rarely (no unintentionally alerting predators by your sobbing). Perhaps we evolved so that progesterone would make pregnant individuals cry more easily because they are a precious resource to the community, and caring for them particularly important. Who knows?
But patriarchy has loaded the average greater ease with which women cry with gender ideology that stigmatizes crying as weak, unprofessional, uncivilized. And this puts people who cry easily--the majority of them women, but some of them men (and these subjected to probably the highest rates of stigma) in a bad position.
Personally, this whole topic makes me feel weird, because I can't tell you what a relief it was to be able to leave behind decades of crying easily, with the social awkwardness and baggage of being treated as irrational, as lesser, that that entailed. But what that relief reflects is in essence male privilege. (I mean, yeah, what it technically reflects is having low levels of estrogen and progesterone, but what's really relevant here is cultural gender inequality.) There are some aspects of gender transition from female to male that it's possible for me to simply celebrate--I love how my hairline receded! It's a masculine feature and it makes me a lot more comfortable with how my face looks, and because contemporary society isn't particularly into male pattern baldness, I can feel pretty sure this is just me enjoying living my male truth. But with a lot of changes, the positives are not just personal, but getting to enjoy the social benefits of male privilege--having male colleagues be much less likely to interrupt me, for example. And yes, of course, it feels much better to enjoy a privilege than to be marginalized, and one has to own one's privileges, but to go around celebrating having them certainly doesn't seem right. I mean, as a white person my response to recognizing that I have white privilege should be to try to fight racial inequality, not do a happy dance about my having racial privilege.
Still, I tell you, I am so relieved now to be able to live as one of those people who cry rarely.
posted by DrMew at 11:09 PM on April 3, 2015 [23 favorites]
DrMew wrote: I can't tell you what a relief it was to be able to leave behind decades of crying easily [after F-to-MK gender transition]
and from the article:
Is this weird? Should I not be able to do this? Does it ... does it make me less of a man?
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:02 PM on April 7, 2015
and from the article:
There was one innate difference that I was surprised to learn is apparently under direct control of testosterone in adults – the ability to cry easily [...]Huh. I can produce tears at will, just by concentrating on the way my eyes feel. It's not accompanied by sobbing or anything, but that's the most characteristic part of the synchronised reaction we call crying. And I am a male, AMAB, very male and masculine with manly qualities.
Is this weird? Should I not be able to do this? Does it ... does it make me less of a man?
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:02 PM on April 7, 2015
[after F-to-MK gender transition]
That should be "F-to-M", sorry.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:11 PM on April 7, 2015
That should be "F-to-M", sorry.
posted by Joe in Australia at 4:11 PM on April 7, 2015
« Older Safe for consumption | "Everyone knows why we're here." This is Josh. Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
I'm not a scientist, but in my (decidedly non-sciencey workplace), crying is frowned upon, as is yelling or any other explicitly emotional responses. This is a very formal Fortune 500 financial environment, but I think the workplace angle is the determining factor here.
Apologies if this is insensitive, I don't mean it to be.
posted by staccato signals of constant information at 1:43 PM on April 2, 2015 [7 favorites]