How About the Rest of North America?
April 3, 2015 11:11 AM Subscribe
Does anyone know what it used to cost for a nice pair of shoes back in the 1800s or even early 1900s, adjusted for inflation?
I understand "prohibitively expensive" but I am wondering how much of that is due to our getting so used to apparel produced at sub-living-wage costs.
posted by small_ruminant at 11:22 AM on April 3, 2015 [15 favorites]
I understand "prohibitively expensive" but I am wondering how much of that is due to our getting so used to apparel produced at sub-living-wage costs.
posted by small_ruminant at 11:22 AM on April 3, 2015 [15 favorites]
Does anyone know what it used to cost for a nice pair of shoes back in the 1800s or even early 1900s, adjusted for inflation?
It would be hard to compare, because back then there were probably way more small-scale shoemakers than there are now.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:25 AM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
It would be hard to compare, because back then there were probably way more small-scale shoemakers than there are now.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:25 AM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
The supply problems are understandable but hardly new, but this:
We then thought about setting up a factory of our own, producing shoes here in the USA but that’s something that’s just not possible for a company of our size, especially when you factor in the current economic climate and the availability of experienced, highly skilled labor and willingness of Americans to work in a repetitive factory job
is just a BS way of saying that can't afford to pay people a living wage to do it.
posted by Think_Long at 11:27 AM on April 3, 2015 [51 favorites]
We then thought about setting up a factory of our own, producing shoes here in the USA but that’s something that’s just not possible for a company of our size, especially when you factor in the current economic climate and the availability of experienced, highly skilled labor and willingness of Americans to work in a repetitive factory job
is just a BS way of saying that can't afford to pay people a living wage to do it.
posted by Think_Long at 11:27 AM on April 3, 2015 [51 favorites]
Does anyone know what it used to cost for a nice pair of shoes back in the 1800s or even early 1900s, adjusted for inflation?I wouldn't be surprised if it were about comparable. On a related note, when you look at pictures of poor and working-class people from that era, a surprising number of them aren't wearing shoes.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:31 AM on April 3, 2015 [9 favorites]
Americans would rather have cheap disposable consumer goods than have other Americans paid a living wage.
posted by octothorpe at 11:31 AM on April 3, 2015 [33 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 11:31 AM on April 3, 2015 [33 favorites]
These are shoes MADE IN THE USA...it is being done.
•Alden, men’s dress shoes, made in Middleborough, MA since 1884
•Allen Edmonds, men’s boots and dress shoes, (available at Nordstrom), made in Wisconsin
•Athena Alexander, women’s sandals and heels, made in Gardena, California
•Bear Feet, infant and toddler shoes, made in Austin, Texas (mentioned in “10 Things We Love: Made in Texas“)
•Cade & Co, infant shoes made in Park City, Utah
•California Magdesians, made in City of Industry, California
•Carolina, men’s work boots
•Chacos’ MyChacos collection that’s made Rockford, Michigan (other styles are not American made)
•CYDWOQ, men and women’s boots, flats, boots, made in Burbank, California
•Donovan Slippers, men and women’s leather ballet flats and slippers
•Eastland Men’s Shoes, made in Maine
•Eliza B, youth and women’s flip flops, made in Essex, Connecticut
•Footwear by Footskins, men and women’s moccasins made in Spring Grove, Minnesota
•Frye, men’s and women’s boots
•Get Grounded, women’s flip flops made in the USA with grounding properties. Read more about grounding and the brand here.
•Gurkee’s rope sandals are made in West Virginia. They offer any array of colors and styles.
•Helm, men’s boots, made in Austin, Texas
•Island Slipper, women and men’s sandals made in Hawaii
•Jack Rogers Navajo Sandals, women’s sandals, select styles made in Florida
•Jen + Kim, women’s heels and custom heels made in Los Angles, California
•Julie Bees, Women’s Flats made in Atlanta, Georgia
•Kepner Scott, infant and toddler shoes, made in Orwigsburg, Pennsylvania (mentioned in “10 Things We Love: Made in Pennsylvania“)
•Kamik, toddler and little kids snow boots
•Kork- Ease, women’s wedge sandals
•L.L. Bean, men and women’s snow boots, select styles made in Maine since 1912
posted by shockingbluamp at 11:32 AM on April 3, 2015 [175 favorites]
•Alden, men’s dress shoes, made in Middleborough, MA since 1884
•Allen Edmonds, men’s boots and dress shoes, (available at Nordstrom), made in Wisconsin
•Athena Alexander, women’s sandals and heels, made in Gardena, California
•Bear Feet, infant and toddler shoes, made in Austin, Texas (mentioned in “10 Things We Love: Made in Texas“)
•Cade & Co, infant shoes made in Park City, Utah
•California Magdesians, made in City of Industry, California
•Carolina, men’s work boots
•Chacos’ MyChacos collection that’s made Rockford, Michigan (other styles are not American made)
•CYDWOQ, men and women’s boots, flats, boots, made in Burbank, California
•Donovan Slippers, men and women’s leather ballet flats and slippers
•Eastland Men’s Shoes, made in Maine
•Eliza B, youth and women’s flip flops, made in Essex, Connecticut
•Footwear by Footskins, men and women’s moccasins made in Spring Grove, Minnesota
•Frye, men’s and women’s boots
•Get Grounded, women’s flip flops made in the USA with grounding properties. Read more about grounding and the brand here.
•Gurkee’s rope sandals are made in West Virginia. They offer any array of colors and styles.
•Helm, men’s boots, made in Austin, Texas
•Island Slipper, women and men’s sandals made in Hawaii
•Jack Rogers Navajo Sandals, women’s sandals, select styles made in Florida
•Jen + Kim, women’s heels and custom heels made in Los Angles, California
•Julie Bees, Women’s Flats made in Atlanta, Georgia
•Kepner Scott, infant and toddler shoes, made in Orwigsburg, Pennsylvania (mentioned in “10 Things We Love: Made in Pennsylvania“)
•Kamik, toddler and little kids snow boots
•Kork- Ease, women’s wedge sandals
•L.L. Bean, men and women’s snow boots, select styles made in Maine since 1912
posted by shockingbluamp at 11:32 AM on April 3, 2015 [175 favorites]
is just a BS way of saying that can't afford to pay people a living wage to do it.
Or at least that they think there is no market for their shoes at that price. And they're probably right (unless they did a lot of marketing and aimed for people who consciously wanted to pay more for Made in America --- I guess American Apparel does this).
posted by thefoxgod at 11:32 AM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
Or at least that they think there is no market for their shoes at that price. And they're probably right (unless they did a lot of marketing and aimed for people who consciously wanted to pay more for Made in America --- I guess American Apparel does this).
posted by thefoxgod at 11:32 AM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
is just a BS way of saying that can't afford to pay people a living wage to do it.
I dunno. It sounds like a pretty well thought out way of saying they can't afford to pay people, specifically US workers, a living wage to do it.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:33 AM on April 3, 2015 [19 favorites]
I dunno. It sounds like a pretty well thought out way of saying they can't afford to pay people, specifically US workers, a living wage to do it.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:33 AM on April 3, 2015 [19 favorites]
Alden, Allen Edmonds, Danner, Quoddy, Rancourt, Chippewa, Red Wing, Arrow - this is bullshit.
Dang, sniped on preview. Anyways, here's a huge list of clothing made in the U.S., including a large section with shoes. "We can't afford to do this in the U.S." is an excuse, and not a particularly good one.
posted by protocoach at 11:33 AM on April 3, 2015 [13 favorites]
Dang, sniped on preview. Anyways, here's a huge list of clothing made in the U.S., including a large section with shoes. "We can't afford to do this in the U.S." is an excuse, and not a particularly good one.
posted by protocoach at 11:33 AM on April 3, 2015 [13 favorites]
The supply problems are understandable but hardly new, but this is just a BS way of saying that can't afford to pay people a living wage to do it.
Well it isn't surprising to me that it would be insanely expensive to completely start your own factory just for your own line of boutique shoes. That's like saying if you want to open a retail store you need to physically build the store first.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:33 AM on April 3, 2015 [9 favorites]
Well it isn't surprising to me that it would be insanely expensive to completely start your own factory just for your own line of boutique shoes. That's like saying if you want to open a retail store you need to physically build the store first.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:33 AM on April 3, 2015 [9 favorites]
Yeah, the "current economic climate" argument is without any content whatsoever. And the line about (a presumed lack of) "availability of experienced, highly skilled labor" is a euphemism for "we don't want to pay to train our employees, and don't want to pay already-trained workers what their skills are worth." And the suggestion that Americans don't want repetitive factory jobs is just horseshit. Millions of Americans do work in manufacturing. How many could they possibly need to make their shoes?
posted by burden at 11:34 AM on April 3, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by burden at 11:34 AM on April 3, 2015 [13 favorites]
Also, American Duchess does historical reenactment shoes for people who make and wear historical costumes. They have fairly specific requirements in terms of historical accuracy, and most people aren't going to pay $500 for shoes they're wearing as part of a costume, not for everyday wear.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:34 AM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:34 AM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
I wouldn't be surprised if it were about comparable.
From the 1912 Sears Catalog.
$2.00 in 1913= $47.42 in 2015
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:35 AM on April 3, 2015 [15 favorites]
From the 1912 Sears Catalog.
$2.00 in 1913= $47.42 in 2015
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:35 AM on April 3, 2015 [15 favorites]
a euphemism for "we don't want to pay to train our employees, and don't want to pay already-trained workers what their skills are worth."
Maybe replace 'don't want to' with 'literally can't without bankrupting our company'? I don't like it either, but economies of scale are a thing, and if you don't have the startup capital to build an entire factory and train a ton of workers, then, well, you just don't.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:36 AM on April 3, 2015 [56 favorites]
Maybe replace 'don't want to' with 'literally can't without bankrupting our company'? I don't like it either, but economies of scale are a thing, and if you don't have the startup capital to build an entire factory and train a ton of workers, then, well, you just don't.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:36 AM on April 3, 2015 [56 favorites]
..."availability of experienced, highly skilled labor" is a euphemism for "we don't want to pay to train our employees, and don't want to pay already-trained workers what their skills are worth."
I think there's a big, wide gulf between "don't want to..." and "can't actually keep our business profitable if we..."
posted by a manly man person who is male and masculine at 11:36 AM on April 3, 2015 [11 favorites]
I think there's a big, wide gulf between "don't want to..." and "can't actually keep our business profitable if we..."
posted by a manly man person who is male and masculine at 11:36 AM on April 3, 2015 [11 favorites]
jinx
posted by a manly man person who is male and masculine at 11:36 AM on April 3, 2015
posted by a manly man person who is male and masculine at 11:36 AM on April 3, 2015
These are shoes MADE IN TGHE USA...it is being done. I call BS.
The article doesn't say there are no shoes made in the US. It explains the barriers to getting their shoes made in the US.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:37 AM on April 3, 2015 [19 favorites]
The article doesn't say there are no shoes made in the US. It explains the barriers to getting their shoes made in the US.
posted by 2N2222 at 11:37 AM on April 3, 2015 [19 favorites]
If I were a bank, there is no way I would loan them the money to start their own manufacturing plant from scratch. They are designers, not producers. Asking them to make a factory from scratch might be a bit much.
I'm also guessing that they can't find suppliers in the U.S. because they are in the middle ground between make-one-at-a-time production ($500/pair) and the large-scale production of other U.S. shoe manufacturers, who don't want to waste their time on the little guy. I am guessing Chinese factories are more used to contract work, so they might have more flexibility?
posted by The Ted at 11:37 AM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'm also guessing that they can't find suppliers in the U.S. because they are in the middle ground between make-one-at-a-time production ($500/pair) and the large-scale production of other U.S. shoe manufacturers, who don't want to waste their time on the little guy. I am guessing Chinese factories are more used to contract work, so they might have more flexibility?
posted by The Ted at 11:37 AM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
This isn't just a boutique shoe company. It's a shoe company that creates period-pieces. They don't give numbers for how many shoes they sell annually, but I'm guessing that the market for 18th Century and Regency shoes is fairly small, and focused on the costume party and halloween set. They're probably right that they won't have a market for shoes priced in the US that would pay a living wage.
posted by KGMoney at 11:37 AM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by KGMoney at 11:37 AM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
focused on the costume party and halloween set
I doubt that! Historical reenactors are probably a main target demo, as well as movies and TV. Reenactors drop tons of money on their gear.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:39 AM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
I doubt that! Historical reenactors are probably a main target demo, as well as movies and TV. Reenactors drop tons of money on their gear.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:39 AM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
They don't give numbers for how many shoes they sell annually, but I'm guessing that the market for 18th Century and Regency shoes is fairly small, and focused on the costume party and halloween set.I don't think so. I became aware of them because the owner was on a textile-related podcast that I listen to. The show was on people who make historical clothes as a hobby. I think they cater mostly to those people and to theatrical costumers. And yeah, that's a fairly small market. Also, they mentioned that there are some people who like to create common-people costumes, but they cater to people who create the kind of clothes that would have been worn by elite people.
I really love their 1920s shoes and have considered getting some for myself. I have no idea whether they would be comfy for everyday wear.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 11:41 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Maybe replace 'don't want to' with 'literally can't without bankrupting our company'? I don't like it either, but economies of scale are a thing, and if you don't have the startup capital to build an entire factory and train a ton of workers, then, well, you just don't.
Very true. I shouldn't have commented so negatively, as I hardly think small-scale shoe companies are the big-bad of the corporate world, and we really should be on their side. I just bristle whenever I hear someone complain that there is no one in the US willing to do the work, when that is quite clearly not the case as long as you can pay them the minimum wage.
posted by Think_Long at 11:42 AM on April 3, 2015
Very true. I shouldn't have commented so negatively, as I hardly think small-scale shoe companies are the big-bad of the corporate world, and we really should be on their side. I just bristle whenever I hear someone complain that there is no one in the US willing to do the work, when that is quite clearly not the case as long as you can pay them the minimum wage.
posted by Think_Long at 11:42 AM on April 3, 2015
Fine. If skilled American factory workers are too expensive for this company to hire, they should just say that instead of trying to blame workers for (1) not being "available" to work at the wages the company wants to pay, or (2) being unwilling to work in a repetitive job. If they just said "we manufacture our shoes in China because our profits wouldn't be as high (or exist at all) if we made them in the US," I'd have a heck of a lot more respect for them.
posted by burden at 11:44 AM on April 3, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by burden at 11:44 AM on April 3, 2015 [8 favorites]
Think about how much labor makes the difference between $100 shoes and $450 shoes. Even at $20 an hour that's 15.5 hours on labor alone. How many hours does it take to make a pair of shoes?
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:46 AM on April 3, 2015
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:46 AM on April 3, 2015
tl;dr
People complain about lists, and yet they don't want paragraphs. What is it that they want!
Oh yeah, everyone to shut up and quit complaining.
Honest question, because I'm pretty naive in this area: Is it probable that the issue wasn't "we want more profits" and was more like, nobody is going to buy these shoes at this price point, and we won't have a business?
posted by stoneandstar at 11:47 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
People complain about lists, and yet they don't want paragraphs. What is it that they want!
Oh yeah, everyone to shut up and quit complaining.
Honest question, because I'm pretty naive in this area: Is it probable that the issue wasn't "we want more profits" and was more like, nobody is going to buy these shoes at this price point, and we won't have a business?
posted by stoneandstar at 11:47 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Is it probable that the issue wasn't "we want more profits" and was more like, nobody is going to buy these shoes at this price point, and we won't have a business?
Of course! This isn't a conglomerate of chucking boardroom fatcats. This is two ordinary people who had a blog and then said "wow what if we made our own historical shoes" and researched it and realized it would be financially impossible in the US.
I'm baffled that people seem to be basically blaming this two-person niche boutique company for all of America's current ills.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:51 AM on April 3, 2015 [32 favorites]
Of course! This isn't a conglomerate of chucking boardroom fatcats. This is two ordinary people who had a blog and then said "wow what if we made our own historical shoes" and researched it and realized it would be financially impossible in the US.
I'm baffled that people seem to be basically blaming this two-person niche boutique company for all of America's current ills.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:51 AM on April 3, 2015 [32 favorites]
Also, American Duchess does historical reenactment shoes for people who make and wear historical costumes. They have fairly specific requirements in terms of historical accuracy, and most people aren't going to pay $500 for shoes they're wearing as part of a costume, not for everyday wear.
These actually don't look particularly sturdy to me. They look like they're glued and not sewn, for one thing, and the soles look extremely flimsy. To my mind, these shoes are at almost exactly the wrong price point - they're expensive enough that they're a bit of an investment, but they're not expensive enough to support the kind of labor and materials that would make them truly durable. Of course, they do have a sort of captive audience since they're uncommon shoes. (There are a couple of boutique renenactment shoe producers in the US, one of whom does some really super medieval shoes but whose website I have mislaid, but the choices seem to be limited.)
In general, my feeling about shoes is that there are four sensible options:
1. Wear nothing but Converse, Vans, Purcells, etc - fairly cheap, fairly well-made, fairly comfortable; you truly do get what you pay for. But you have to have a life where this works.
2. Buy the cheapest shoes that are remotely comfortable, eg Target, Payless. Here you also get what you pay for.
3. Expect to drop a minimum of $250 and probably $300 - $400 on a pair of shoes made by a reasonably-compensated skilled worker out of decent materials to a decent standard. You get what you pay for, but you're paying a lot.
4. Buy used shoes, the best you can afford.
Buying mid-price-point shoes for regular wear (reenactment is a bit different) seems to me like the worst use of money, because you're getting the same old glue, plastic-coated leather and cardboard that you get with cheaper shoes, but you're paying more.
posted by Frowner at 11:52 AM on April 3, 2015 [13 favorites]
These actually don't look particularly sturdy to me. They look like they're glued and not sewn, for one thing, and the soles look extremely flimsy. To my mind, these shoes are at almost exactly the wrong price point - they're expensive enough that they're a bit of an investment, but they're not expensive enough to support the kind of labor and materials that would make them truly durable. Of course, they do have a sort of captive audience since they're uncommon shoes. (There are a couple of boutique renenactment shoe producers in the US, one of whom does some really super medieval shoes but whose website I have mislaid, but the choices seem to be limited.)
In general, my feeling about shoes is that there are four sensible options:
1. Wear nothing but Converse, Vans, Purcells, etc - fairly cheap, fairly well-made, fairly comfortable; you truly do get what you pay for. But you have to have a life where this works.
2. Buy the cheapest shoes that are remotely comfortable, eg Target, Payless. Here you also get what you pay for.
3. Expect to drop a minimum of $250 and probably $300 - $400 on a pair of shoes made by a reasonably-compensated skilled worker out of decent materials to a decent standard. You get what you pay for, but you're paying a lot.
4. Buy used shoes, the best you can afford.
Buying mid-price-point shoes for regular wear (reenactment is a bit different) seems to me like the worst use of money, because you're getting the same old glue, plastic-coated leather and cardboard that you get with cheaper shoes, but you're paying more.
posted by Frowner at 11:52 AM on April 3, 2015 [13 favorites]
Is it probable that the issue wasn't "we want more profits" and was more like, nobody is going to buy these shoes at this price point, and we won't have a business?
I mean, as far as I understand it, yeah, that's exactly the thing. It's just that this seems to be a conversation where "profit" has become a four-letter word bringing to mind images of rapacious burlap-sack-with-a-dollar-sign-for-a-head carpetbagging CEOs rather than "profit" in its simplest "revenue minus expenses" sense being the literal lifeblood of a business.
posted by a manly man person who is male and masculine at 11:53 AM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
I mean, as far as I understand it, yeah, that's exactly the thing. It's just that this seems to be a conversation where "profit" has become a four-letter word bringing to mind images of rapacious burlap-sack-with-a-dollar-sign-for-a-head carpetbagging CEOs rather than "profit" in its simplest "revenue minus expenses" sense being the literal lifeblood of a business.
posted by a manly man person who is male and masculine at 11:53 AM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
Yeah, I too found this justification to be strange.
Personally, I don't see why a company like American Duchess has to apologize for making their shoes in China in the first place. Like, isn't that the rule rather than the exception? And having justified that decision, their justification is really tone-deaf. Their bottom line is that Chinese factories are chock full of highly-skilled artisan shoemakers who work for 1/4th the price, so that's why they're making the shoes in China. Well, duh? It's not like everyone else uses Chinese manufacturers because they're communist sympathizers.
posted by muddgirl at 11:54 AM on April 3, 2015 [11 favorites]
Personally, I don't see why a company like American Duchess has to apologize for making their shoes in China in the first place. Like, isn't that the rule rather than the exception? And having justified that decision, their justification is really tone-deaf. Their bottom line is that Chinese factories are chock full of highly-skilled artisan shoemakers who work for 1/4th the price, so that's why they're making the shoes in China. Well, duh? It's not like everyone else uses Chinese manufacturers because they're communist sympathizers.
posted by muddgirl at 11:54 AM on April 3, 2015 [11 favorites]
I'm baffled that people seem to be basically blaming this two-person niche boutique company for all of America's current ills.
Good! Me too.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:55 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Good! Me too.
posted by stoneandstar at 11:55 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
It also seems to me like a successful shoemaker could do what Wolverine has done (although on a smaller scale) and offer a boutique/US-made line. That might be an option for these people down the road - most of their shoes are made elsewhere, but they partner with a craft producer for a few US-made models. This might also be a way to transition to more US production over the long haul.
I tend not to believe that the labor picture is particularly good in China, though. Here in the US, where there are some unions and some labor laws, we have lots of sweatshops. Why would a much larger, even more corrupt, even more unregulated economy be better than the US?
posted by Frowner at 11:56 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
I tend not to believe that the labor picture is particularly good in China, though. Here in the US, where there are some unions and some labor laws, we have lots of sweatshops. Why would a much larger, even more corrupt, even more unregulated economy be better than the US?
posted by Frowner at 11:56 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
this all makes sense to me - the only reason flint & tinder were able to make their (relatively expensive, but good quality) products is because they found found a factory with some extra space available that produces tshirts .
posted by nadawi at 11:58 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by nadawi at 11:58 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
How many hours does it take to make a pair of shoes?
It really depends on how they're constructed. For a pair of quality Goodyear-welted men's shoes, the figure I've heard is about 20 hours of labor - but those are shoes like Allen Edmonds and Alden that really do cost $350+ when they're American-made. For a pair that's constructed with adhesives, much less labor time.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 11:58 AM on April 3, 2015
It really depends on how they're constructed. For a pair of quality Goodyear-welted men's shoes, the figure I've heard is about 20 hours of labor - but those are shoes like Allen Edmonds and Alden that really do cost $350+ when they're American-made. For a pair that's constructed with adhesives, much less labor time.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 11:58 AM on April 3, 2015
Is it really that difficult to set up a small factory, though? I mean, they were presumably able to start making these shoes somehow before offshoring. Was that process not scalable in the United States? If not, why not? What could be done to help small companies like this one set up small factories? What, aside from labor costs, made it easier to set up manufacturing in China rather than in the US? If availability of raw materials is the problem, is there something that makes importing raw materials difficult or impossible?
Answers to questions like these would do a lot to make the company's explanation interesting rather than a bunch of feel-good handwaving.
I don't think the people behind this company are bad people. I think their decision to outsource to China is probably perfectly reasonable and was probably the right thing for them to do if they wanted to have a viable company. I just think that this explanation on this page rings false.
posted by burden at 11:58 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Answers to questions like these would do a lot to make the company's explanation interesting rather than a bunch of feel-good handwaving.
I don't think the people behind this company are bad people. I think their decision to outsource to China is probably perfectly reasonable and was probably the right thing for them to do if they wanted to have a viable company. I just think that this explanation on this page rings false.
posted by burden at 11:58 AM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
These are shoes MADE IN TGHE USA...it is being done. I call BS.
While it's not true of all of that list, some of those (like Alden's) absolutely are $500 shoes; that doesn't really prove that they're wrong. There are places (Allen Edmonds, Quoddy, Oak Street) producing shoes in the $250-300 range, but that's also not really disproving anything.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:58 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
While it's not true of all of that list, some of those (like Alden's) absolutely are $500 shoes; that doesn't really prove that they're wrong. There are places (Allen Edmonds, Quoddy, Oak Street) producing shoes in the $250-300 range, but that's also not really disproving anything.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:58 AM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Interesting that they say there are basically no heel manufacturers in the US. My grandfather had a small heel and counter factory in Virginia in the 90s. From my hazy memories of visiting the machinery wasn't particularly massive, mainly leather stitching and cutting stuff.
posted by ghharr at 12:04 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by ghharr at 12:04 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
...that’s something that’s just not possible for a company of our size.
Translation: Our payroll is exclusively empty suit MBA's with marketing backgrounds and we couldn't imagine hiring one or two of the thousands of out-of-work manufacturing and operations engineers out there to do that little manufacturing thingy part of the business. They're just so difficult to work with.
posted by klarck at 12:04 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Translation: Our payroll is exclusively empty suit MBA's with marketing backgrounds and we couldn't imagine hiring one or two of the thousands of out-of-work manufacturing and operations engineers out there to do that little manufacturing thingy part of the business. They're just so difficult to work with.
posted by klarck at 12:04 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
What, aside from labor costs, made it easier to set up manufacturing in China rather than in the US?
They didn't go to China and find a location and hire architects and build a factory and train and hire workers there. They found an already-existing factory, which they tried and failed to do here.
From the link: There are almost no shoe production facilities left in the USA that are willing to make shoes designed by other companies (OEM) in the consignment sizes that we are able to buy
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:04 PM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
They didn't go to China and find a location and hire architects and build a factory and train and hire workers there. They found an already-existing factory, which they tried and failed to do here.
From the link: There are almost no shoe production facilities left in the USA that are willing to make shoes designed by other companies (OEM) in the consignment sizes that we are able to buy
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:04 PM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
Our payroll is exclusively empty suit MBA's with marketing backgrounds
Oh, for fuck's sake, bother to read the link? The entire company is two historical fashion bloggers.
American Duchess Company is a small business based in Reno, Nevada, USA. We consist of two overworked lunatics, and a little pack of sleepy, lazy dogs. Lauren started blogging about historical costuming in 2009, but it was not until late 2010 that she and Chris came up with the idea to create historically accurate shoes for frustrated costumers worldwide.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:05 PM on April 3, 2015 [46 favorites]
Oh, for fuck's sake, bother to read the link? The entire company is two historical fashion bloggers.
American Duchess Company is a small business based in Reno, Nevada, USA. We consist of two overworked lunatics, and a little pack of sleepy, lazy dogs. Lauren started blogging about historical costuming in 2009, but it was not until late 2010 that she and Chris came up with the idea to create historically accurate shoes for frustrated costumers worldwide.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:05 PM on April 3, 2015 [46 favorites]
Naturally we would love to produce all of our products here in the USA
Why "naturally"? Why is the desire to produce something in the US presented as the default choice? American exceptionalism is everywhere.
posted by layceepee at 12:06 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Why "naturally"? Why is the desire to produce something in the US presented as the default choice? American exceptionalism is everywhere.
posted by layceepee at 12:06 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Why "naturally"? Why is the desire to produce something in the US presented as the default choice? American exceptionalism is everywhere.
the word "American" appears in the name of the company, for one
posted by theodolite at 12:08 PM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
the word "American" appears in the name of the company, for one
posted by theodolite at 12:08 PM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
The thing about these shoes that separates them out from Alden, Quoddy, etc is that these are women's shoes made on rather idiosyncratic lasts rather than men's shoes and/or workboots. That means that the start-up cost is going to be higher and the market is going to be smaller. I bet that one reason they had trouble finding a US maker is that if you're, say, a small place in Maine who makes for York Street, you're set up to make men's and men's style shoes on a particular kind of last out of a particular kind of leather. You may not be set up to make pointy models of women's shoes with heels and a fabric exterior with lining. Your labor probably doesn't have experience with that.
Another reason might be precisely that there is a resurgence in interest in US-made shoes. Contrary to popular belief, many of the US makers of shoes don't own their own workshops - they contract the work out, and one place may be working for Eastland, Quoddy, York Street and Ralph Lauren. There are even fewer workshops than you'd think based on the brand list. And to the best of my knowledge, none specialize in women's shoes. [So existing workshops may be totally slammed right now.]
Another possibility for them might be Spain, though. Cheaper than Italy, plenty of existing infrastructure, women's shoemakers, etc. That would probably bump the price, but almost certainly not to the $300 range.
posted by Frowner at 12:08 PM on April 3, 2015 [11 favorites]
Another reason might be precisely that there is a resurgence in interest in US-made shoes. Contrary to popular belief, many of the US makers of shoes don't own their own workshops - they contract the work out, and one place may be working for Eastland, Quoddy, York Street and Ralph Lauren. There are even fewer workshops than you'd think based on the brand list. And to the best of my knowledge, none specialize in women's shoes. [So existing workshops may be totally slammed right now.]
Another possibility for them might be Spain, though. Cheaper than Italy, plenty of existing infrastructure, women's shoemakers, etc. That would probably bump the price, but almost certainly not to the $300 range.
posted by Frowner at 12:08 PM on April 3, 2015 [11 favorites]
Why is the desire to produce something in the US presented as the default choice?
Really cannot tell if you're joking or not.
posted by a manly man person who is male and masculine at 12:09 PM on April 3, 2015
Really cannot tell if you're joking or not.
posted by a manly man person who is male and masculine at 12:09 PM on April 3, 2015
They didn't go to China and find a location and hire architects and build a factory and train and hire workers there. They found an already-existing factory, which they tried and failed to do here.
If that's the answer, then they should have just said that instead of throwing in all of the other supposed reasons and prefacing the whole thing with "the decision wasn't about squeezing the maximum profit out of our products." I doubt anyone would have done more than shrug at it.
posted by burden at 12:11 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
If that's the answer, then they should have just said that instead of throwing in all of the other supposed reasons and prefacing the whole thing with "the decision wasn't about squeezing the maximum profit out of our products." I doubt anyone would have done more than shrug at it.
posted by burden at 12:11 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Our payroll is exclusively empty suit MBA's with marketing backgrounds
I'm just laughing thinking about some super driven MBAs who think they've struck it rich in the regency-era footwear field.
posted by Think_Long at 12:13 PM on April 3, 2015 [58 favorites]
I'm just laughing thinking about some super driven MBAs who think they've struck it rich in the regency-era footwear field.
posted by Think_Long at 12:13 PM on April 3, 2015 [58 favorites]
While it's not true of all of that list, some of those (like Alden's) absolutely are $500 shoes; that doesn't really prove that they're wrong.
I would expect $500 mens leather shoes to have sewn-on soles, at the very least. American Duchess's shoes are made of leather but do not appear to be the same quality of construction. A better comparison to American Duchess would be SAS, which are constructed in two factories in Texas at the same price point as American Duchess for a rather niche market.
I'm not a historical re-enactor, but I don't know why $500 for a quality pair of shoes with authentic leather construction is apparently so unthinkable. Cursory googling shows that an off-the-rack "plain cotton" dress can be north of $200.
posted by muddgirl at 12:13 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
I would expect $500 mens leather shoes to have sewn-on soles, at the very least. American Duchess's shoes are made of leather but do not appear to be the same quality of construction. A better comparison to American Duchess would be SAS, which are constructed in two factories in Texas at the same price point as American Duchess for a rather niche market.
I'm not a historical re-enactor, but I don't know why $500 for a quality pair of shoes with authentic leather construction is apparently so unthinkable. Cursory googling shows that an off-the-rack "plain cotton" dress can be north of $200.
posted by muddgirl at 12:13 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
If that's the answer, then they should have just said that
They said that.
posted by stoneandstar at 12:14 PM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
They said that.
posted by stoneandstar at 12:14 PM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
Americans would rather have cheap disposable consumer goods than have other Americans paid a living wage.
I think most would prefer both but many of us aren't sure how that can be worked out.
posted by jonmc at 12:16 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think most would prefer both but many of us aren't sure how that can be worked out.
posted by jonmc at 12:16 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
If that's the answer, then they should have just said that instead of throwing in all of the other supposed reasons and prefacing the whole thing with "the decision wasn't about squeezing the maximum profit out of our products." I doubt anyone would have done more than shrug at it.
Somehow I think our ill-informed self-righteousness would still have been up to the challenge.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 12:17 PM on April 3, 2015 [10 favorites]
Somehow I think our ill-informed self-righteousness would still have been up to the challenge.
posted by strangely stunted trees at 12:17 PM on April 3, 2015 [10 favorites]
I'm not a historical re-enactor, but I don't know why $500 for a quality pair of shoes with authentic leather construction is apparently so unthinkable.
Because for the average American that's an 8th of their monthly wage before taxes?
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:18 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
Because for the average American that's an 8th of their monthly wage before taxes?
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:18 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
4. Buy used shoes, the best you can afford.
Bad idea -- speaking from experience, unless they were only worn a few times, they will have conformed to the shape of someone else's feet, and thus will give you blisters and back problems.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:18 PM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
Bad idea -- speaking from experience, unless they were only worn a few times, they will have conformed to the shape of someone else's feet, and thus will give you blisters and back problems.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:18 PM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
I'm not a historical re-enactor, but I don't know why $500 for a quality pair of shoes with authentic leather construction is apparently so unthinkable. Cursory googling shows that an off-the-rack "plain cotton" dress can be north of $200.I don't think these are folks who are buying their dresses. They're making the dresses, which is the hobby. They're buying accessories to wear with the dresses. And while I realize that $500 is chump change to a lot of people on Metafilter, not everyone has that much money to use on things-related-to-but-not-central-to their hobbies.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 12:18 PM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
(Jacqueline I actually have a pair of plain brown leather ankle books from a thrift store - they cost like $10 and fit well and I've had them for almost ten years, and with a polish they look good as new. Just amazing. But I thrift shop for fun all the time and those are the only shoes I've ever found of such quality.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:21 PM on April 3, 2015
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:21 PM on April 3, 2015
I know people are acting like it's not, but the difference between a $200 price point and a $500 price point seems quite significant to me. I would buy $200 shoes on rare occasions, if they would make me quite happy and I thought they were a good product. I would buy a pair for a hobby if I had decided to attend events, or something of that variety. I would virtually never buy $500 shoes, because they are simply out of my price range. I would need to make more money to consider $500 a reasonable price for hobby equipment. I'm sure some in this hobby make enough money, but there are consequences of the fact that $500 > $200. I'm assuming they know their audience/market somewhat, as bloggers?
Even buying my everyday shoes, I'm aware of the fact that $500 shoes are a better deal in the long run, but it's just not happening as long as that's a significant percentage of my monthly salary.
posted by stoneandstar at 12:22 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
Even buying my everyday shoes, I'm aware of the fact that $500 shoes are a better deal in the long run, but it's just not happening as long as that's a significant percentage of my monthly salary.
posted by stoneandstar at 12:22 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
Because for the average American that's an 8th of their monthly wage before taxes?
The average American isn't a historical re-enactor.
I don't think these are folks who are buying their dresses. They're making the dresses, which is the hobby.
I don't think that dress-making or clothes-making "is the hobby" for everyone. Otherwise there wouldn't be tons and tons of dressmakers focusing on historical re-enactment.
posted by muddgirl at 12:23 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
The average American isn't a historical re-enactor.
I don't think these are folks who are buying their dresses. They're making the dresses, which is the hobby.
I don't think that dress-making or clothes-making "is the hobby" for everyone. Otherwise there wouldn't be tons and tons of dressmakers focusing on historical re-enactment.
posted by muddgirl at 12:23 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
The notion of starting a new small manufacturing plant is so foreign that in many places it is nearly impossible to do so - no financing exists, you can't get the permits, if anyone can even figure out what the permits are supposed to be. You can't get sufficient insurance. You can't find people actually willing to work in them, and if you CAN find those people you can't get enough machines to put them to work because the machines you need haven't been made in the USA since the 1950s. It really is like something out of a post-fall speculative fiction story.
The startup economy is focused on ideas. It's not focused on making things. Telling the startup community that you want to actually make a physical product for people to buy is like loudly announcing that you're insane. That said, they are fooling themselves about workplace standards, business ethics, and environmental protections in China. The laws are on the books, but the laws have ALWAYS been on the books, and any guarantees you receive are going to be outright lies.
Eastern Europe still has plenty of shoe manufacturers who are probably thirsty for the work. There are roads that don't lead to China.
posted by 1adam12 at 12:24 PM on April 3, 2015 [13 favorites]
The startup economy is focused on ideas. It's not focused on making things. Telling the startup community that you want to actually make a physical product for people to buy is like loudly announcing that you're insane. That said, they are fooling themselves about workplace standards, business ethics, and environmental protections in China. The laws are on the books, but the laws have ALWAYS been on the books, and any guarantees you receive are going to be outright lies.
Eastern Europe still has plenty of shoe manufacturers who are probably thirsty for the work. There are roads that don't lead to China.
posted by 1adam12 at 12:24 PM on April 3, 2015 [13 favorites]
Bad idea -- speaking from experience, unless they were only worn a few times, they will have conformed to the shape of someone else's feet, and thus will give you blisters and back problems.
The higher quality the original shoe, the more likely it is to be wearable by a second wearer, because the sole will compress less and the exterior will stretch less; also, it is more likely to be well-sized rather than puffy and loose-fitting, so it won't have bent in weird ways as it slides around the foot. Also, it won't have cardboard components. I admit that the kind of women's shoes which are supposed to fit very tightly and be worn without socks probably don't stand up to resale very well.
I mean, virtually all my shoes were bought second-hand. I couldn't have my ridiculously extensive shoe wardrobe if I were paying for new ones. I could probably have one pair of boots, one pair of lace-ups and a pair of Converse.
On another note: American Duchess is competing with Remix Vintage shoes, which are imported and are about at their price point. Remix makes shoes that are more suited for everday wear, but that is a consideration.
Again, if AD is serious about labor, probably their best plan would be to build up a client base and then try to phase in a US-made line either through becoming successful enough to start their own workshop or through partnership with a small maker.
posted by Frowner at 12:25 PM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
The higher quality the original shoe, the more likely it is to be wearable by a second wearer, because the sole will compress less and the exterior will stretch less; also, it is more likely to be well-sized rather than puffy and loose-fitting, so it won't have bent in weird ways as it slides around the foot. Also, it won't have cardboard components. I admit that the kind of women's shoes which are supposed to fit very tightly and be worn without socks probably don't stand up to resale very well.
I mean, virtually all my shoes were bought second-hand. I couldn't have my ridiculously extensive shoe wardrobe if I were paying for new ones. I could probably have one pair of boots, one pair of lace-ups and a pair of Converse.
On another note: American Duchess is competing with Remix Vintage shoes, which are imported and are about at their price point. Remix makes shoes that are more suited for everday wear, but that is a consideration.
Again, if AD is serious about labor, probably their best plan would be to build up a client base and then try to phase in a US-made line either through becoming successful enough to start their own workshop or through partnership with a small maker.
posted by Frowner at 12:25 PM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
So is "just start your own factory from scratch, you filthy industrialists" the "just get a job, you filthy hippies" of the left?
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:28 PM on April 3, 2015 [27 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:28 PM on April 3, 2015 [27 favorites]
Wow, this thread got really nasty. Who knew mefites cared so much about historically-inspired shoes at a mid-level price point?
posted by muddgirl at 12:30 PM on April 3, 2015 [24 favorites]
posted by muddgirl at 12:30 PM on April 3, 2015 [24 favorites]
•CYDWOQ, men and women’s boots, flats, boots, made in Burbank, California
Cydwoq might be a good comparison because they do make their own shoes (I've visited the factory/showroom when I was driving to LA and needed to get insoles, it's neat to see the shoes being made), and their shoes are generally somewhat eccentric. They're also generally two to three times as expensive as AD's.
posted by kenko at 12:31 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Cydwoq might be a good comparison because they do make their own shoes (I've visited the factory/showroom when I was driving to LA and needed to get insoles, it's neat to see the shoes being made), and their shoes are generally somewhat eccentric. They're also generally two to three times as expensive as AD's.
posted by kenko at 12:31 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
There are two suppositions that need to be considered here, amongst all the hand wringing over a rather (hate to use the term) first world problem, i.e., the cost of this particular hobby item.
1) that the company owners actually know their target demo and are well aware that they must meet a certain price-point or close shop, thus their willingness to address this 'often asked question' in such a public way, and
2) that they had a viable business model in the first place, and haven't simply painted themselves into a corner by trying to sell something to folks who demand one thing (that they be quality made in the US) but are forced to settle for the other (what they are currently getting).
posted by OHenryPacey at 12:31 PM on April 3, 2015
1) that the company owners actually know their target demo and are well aware that they must meet a certain price-point or close shop, thus their willingness to address this 'often asked question' in such a public way, and
2) that they had a viable business model in the first place, and haven't simply painted themselves into a corner by trying to sell something to folks who demand one thing (that they be quality made in the US) but are forced to settle for the other (what they are currently getting).
posted by OHenryPacey at 12:31 PM on April 3, 2015
If you're going to say something like "We don't make our products in the United States because it's impossible to start a factory here," then at least tell us specifically why you think it's impossible. Maybe we can work on that so that the next little company has more options than you did!
posted by burden at 12:32 PM on April 3, 2015
posted by burden at 12:32 PM on April 3, 2015
at least tell us specifically why you think it's impossible.
Does the link in the OP not do that?
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:35 PM on April 3, 2015 [11 favorites]
Does the link in the OP not do that?
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:35 PM on April 3, 2015 [11 favorites]
Does anyone know what it used to cost for a nice pair of shoes back in the 1800s or even early 1900s, adjusted for inflation?
I understand "prohibitively expensive" but I am wondering how much of that is due to our getting so used to apparel produced at sub-living-wage costs.
posted by small_ruminant at 11:22 AM on April 3 [4 favorites +] [!]
The 1897 Sears-Roebuck Catalogue has a pair of shoes that look very similar to the AD "Renoir" boots ($190) priced at $2.98, which according to the Inflation Calculator is about $83.45 today.
Keep in mind that in 1897 there were no minimum wage/living wage laws and the poor were often VERY poor, so it actually might have been much worse in that era as far as the wages a worker could expect in America. I understand the situation was something like modern India, where the gap between rich and poor was quite severe -- that's why the middle class used to have servants.
posted by Peregrine Pickle at 12:36 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
I understand "prohibitively expensive" but I am wondering how much of that is due to our getting so used to apparel produced at sub-living-wage costs.
posted by small_ruminant at 11:22 AM on April 3 [4 favorites +] [!]
The 1897 Sears-Roebuck Catalogue has a pair of shoes that look very similar to the AD "Renoir" boots ($190) priced at $2.98, which according to the Inflation Calculator is about $83.45 today.
Keep in mind that in 1897 there were no minimum wage/living wage laws and the poor were often VERY poor, so it actually might have been much worse in that era as far as the wages a worker could expect in America. I understand the situation was something like modern India, where the gap between rich and poor was quite severe -- that's why the middle class used to have servants.
posted by Peregrine Pickle at 12:36 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
I would also suggest that this is a poor example product given that it's such a niche offering - I'm kind of surprised there's enough of a market for recreations of historical footwear to support what they actually ended up doing.
Someone posted a lengthy list of companies producing shoes in the U.S. above - general market shoes. If these guys did the kind of research they say, and I've no reason to think they didn't, then they must be aware of all those US produced shoes. I suspect their experience says less about the nature of capitalism and the state of American manufacturing than it says about the size of the market for their product.
posted by Naberius at 12:40 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
Someone posted a lengthy list of companies producing shoes in the U.S. above - general market shoes. If these guys did the kind of research they say, and I've no reason to think they didn't, then they must be aware of all those US produced shoes. I suspect their experience says less about the nature of capitalism and the state of American manufacturing than it says about the size of the market for their product.
posted by Naberius at 12:40 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
Another issue with making women's shoes - most women (especially younger women) are expected to have a large shoe wardrobe which changes a lot, and women's shoes are much more likely to date than men's. Not exclusively, but even if you look at, say, Clark's mid-range shoes from 2005 versus the ones from today, there's quite a lot of change. Never mind looking at shoes from 1995. That's not to say that all women are expected to do this, but I would argue that the majority of women are expected to keep up to date with relatively mainstream fashion in order to succeed at work and in private life.
So for men who are really, really committed to having High Quality US-Made Shoes, it's possible to say "I am going to save up and every year I will buy one pair of $400 shoes until I have five or six pairs and I will buy classic ones and rotate them and keep them on shoe trees and they will last me for fifteen years". For women, this is much less likely to work due to the change in fashion. Sure, there are trendy men's shoes - but if I want to buy a pair of Alden workboots, I know that I will be able to wear them for the next fifteen years and not attract a second look.
And even if women want to buy classic shoes, there are relatively few makers even at a high price point. (If anything, very expensive women's shoes are more likely to be trendy!) Allen Edmonds had a short-lived US-made women's line in the eighties/early nineties; a few English makers do women's shoes; there are a few Spanish and Italian makers who have one or two classic styles. But it's much, much easier for a dude to buy Allen Edmonds or Redwing than it is for a woman to find one of these others.
I have the advantage that, though AFAB, I have enormous feet. So I can buy men's shoes.
BUT - if you are looking for feminine shoes at a medium high price point and like artsy, chunky ones, I cannot recommend the Trippen Vivienne too highly. You can buy them in the US from Ped Shoes and a couple of other places or from Gravity Pope in Canada, but Trippen is the cheapest, ships to the US and is very reliable. They are beautiful shoes. They fit slightly wide, are resolable, are fully leather lined, can be worn barefoot or with socks and are very comfortable. (I used to have two pairs that were my everyday all year wear for a couple of years straight, and they were in perfectly wearable shape by the end of that time. I wear a slightly wide US 10 - 10.5 and the 41 fits me perfectly.
posted by Frowner at 12:41 PM on April 3, 2015 [18 favorites]
So for men who are really, really committed to having High Quality US-Made Shoes, it's possible to say "I am going to save up and every year I will buy one pair of $400 shoes until I have five or six pairs and I will buy classic ones and rotate them and keep them on shoe trees and they will last me for fifteen years". For women, this is much less likely to work due to the change in fashion. Sure, there are trendy men's shoes - but if I want to buy a pair of Alden workboots, I know that I will be able to wear them for the next fifteen years and not attract a second look.
And even if women want to buy classic shoes, there are relatively few makers even at a high price point. (If anything, very expensive women's shoes are more likely to be trendy!) Allen Edmonds had a short-lived US-made women's line in the eighties/early nineties; a few English makers do women's shoes; there are a few Spanish and Italian makers who have one or two classic styles. But it's much, much easier for a dude to buy Allen Edmonds or Redwing than it is for a woman to find one of these others.
I have the advantage that, though AFAB, I have enormous feet. So I can buy men's shoes.
BUT - if you are looking for feminine shoes at a medium high price point and like artsy, chunky ones, I cannot recommend the Trippen Vivienne too highly. You can buy them in the US from Ped Shoes and a couple of other places or from Gravity Pope in Canada, but Trippen is the cheapest, ships to the US and is very reliable. They are beautiful shoes. They fit slightly wide, are resolable, are fully leather lined, can be worn barefoot or with socks and are very comfortable. (I used to have two pairs that were my everyday all year wear for a couple of years straight, and they were in perfectly wearable shape by the end of that time. I wear a slightly wide US 10 - 10.5 and the 41 fits me perfectly.
posted by Frowner at 12:41 PM on April 3, 2015 [18 favorites]
It may be a small point, but I'm curious why there is no mention of looking at the Americas, such as Mexico, which has quite a lot of leather and shoe factories and low-cost labor.
posted by eye of newt at 12:44 PM on April 3, 2015
posted by eye of newt at 12:44 PM on April 3, 2015
It may be a small point, but I'm curious why there is no mention of looking at the Americas, such as Mexico, which has quite a lot of leather and shoe factories and low-cost labor.
How about the rest of North America?posted by a manly man person who is male and masculine at 12:45 PM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
So it was fairly obvious that the USA wasn’t going to work, so we turned our attention to our neighbors (Canada and Mexico) which was mainly a similar story, unless we wanted to source low quality or fashion shoes from Mexico. Investigating the territories (Puerto Rico, American Samoa, Marianas etc) dug up some pretty horrible issues with exploited imported Asian workforces in sweatshops. The territories can legally place "Made in USA" tags on everything, but are not subject to US labor laws which opens up a huge can of problems with regards to business and worker ethics - is it worth being potentially involved in such activities for the sake of the "Made in USA" tag?. We decided not…
Really cannot tell if you're joking or not.
No, I'm not joking. I understand that some people prefer to "buy American" and tags saying "Made in the USA" are often used as marketing tools. But I don't think there is anything particularly "natural" about that.
posted by layceepee at 12:45 PM on April 3, 2015
No, I'm not joking. I understand that some people prefer to "buy American" and tags saying "Made in the USA" are often used as marketing tools. But I don't think there is anything particularly "natural" about that.
posted by layceepee at 12:45 PM on April 3, 2015
It may be a small point, but I'm curious why there is no mention of looking at the Americas, such as Mexico, which has quite a lot of leather and shoe factories and low-cost labor.
There is - the section called "How about the rest of North America?"
posted by Think_Long at 12:46 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
There is - the section called "How about the rest of North America?"
posted by Think_Long at 12:46 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Does the link in the OP not do that?
It doesn't. In response to the question "Maybe set up your own factory in the USA?" it says that this was not possible because of the "current economic climate," which means nothing, and because "the availability of experienced, highly skilled labor and willingness of Americans to work in a repetitive factory job," which are two ways of saying "labor costs are too high" while blaming workers for that condition. It also talks about unavailability of local materials but doesn't discuss why the possibility of importing the materials was rejected.
Again, I don't think these people are bad people at all. If I had to guess, I would expect that their decision to make the shoes in China was probably justified from an economic point of view. But I think their explanation of the decision is unconvincing and self-serving.
posted by burden at 12:46 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
It doesn't. In response to the question "Maybe set up your own factory in the USA?" it says that this was not possible because of the "current economic climate," which means nothing, and because "the availability of experienced, highly skilled labor and willingness of Americans to work in a repetitive factory job," which are two ways of saying "labor costs are too high" while blaming workers for that condition. It also talks about unavailability of local materials but doesn't discuss why the possibility of importing the materials was rejected.
Again, I don't think these people are bad people at all. If I had to guess, I would expect that their decision to make the shoes in China was probably justified from an economic point of view. But I think their explanation of the decision is unconvincing and self-serving.
posted by burden at 12:46 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
> Also, American Duchess does historical reenactment shoes for people who make and wear historical costumes. They have fairly specific requirements in terms of historical accuracy, and most people aren't going to pay $500 for shoes they're wearing as part of a costume, not for everyday wear.
Ha! You don't know many reenaactors or RenFair folks, do you? Yes, $500 is at the high end for shoes, but $200-$300 is a pretty normal price point for shoes. Tall boots start at about $400 typically. $1000 is not a shocking price for custom boots.
Even people who make all their own costumes typically draw the line at shoemaking, so there's quite a sizable niche market. Plenty of small-scale shoemakers are catering to it and making everything in their home workshops.
posted by desuetude at 12:50 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
Ha! You don't know many reenaactors or RenFair folks, do you? Yes, $500 is at the high end for shoes, but $200-$300 is a pretty normal price point for shoes. Tall boots start at about $400 typically. $1000 is not a shocking price for custom boots.
Even people who make all their own costumes typically draw the line at shoemaking, so there's quite a sizable niche market. Plenty of small-scale shoemakers are catering to it and making everything in their home workshops.
posted by desuetude at 12:50 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
Another goal they might be able to set in the long run - a line of slightly more mainstream-looking boots and shoes at a higher price point from..oh, let's say a Spanish or Mexican maker---something like the boots they already have but a bit more robust and fashion-y.
(I bet you could find a reputable Mexican workshop, though - there are a bunch of places the produce luxury Western boots.)
I mean, if this is just two women who are new to shoe production, even if they are very diligent they are not going to have all the contacts and expertise that someone with lots of experience might. I think the test will be whether over time as they have more knowledge, more connections and a proven ability to sell a product they will be able to leverage this to bring production to the US or to another reputable place.
Everlane uses a factory in China and they are all about ethics/transparency. (And I choose to assume that they are not lying.) They seem to have built up a connection with an established high-quality maker that they visit regularly. It's possible that given some time and experience, these people could build up a relationship with a Chinese maker that they could really be confident in. I don't trust any generalizations about factories in China, but on the fact of it there's no reason that a particular maker could not be an ethical employer; it's not as though China has no tradition of skilled production or labor organizing.
posted by Frowner at 12:54 PM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
(I bet you could find a reputable Mexican workshop, though - there are a bunch of places the produce luxury Western boots.)
I mean, if this is just two women who are new to shoe production, even if they are very diligent they are not going to have all the contacts and expertise that someone with lots of experience might. I think the test will be whether over time as they have more knowledge, more connections and a proven ability to sell a product they will be able to leverage this to bring production to the US or to another reputable place.
Everlane uses a factory in China and they are all about ethics/transparency. (And I choose to assume that they are not lying.) They seem to have built up a connection with an established high-quality maker that they visit regularly. It's possible that given some time and experience, these people could build up a relationship with a Chinese maker that they could really be confident in. I don't trust any generalizations about factories in China, but on the fact of it there's no reason that a particular maker could not be an ethical employer; it's not as though China has no tradition of skilled production or labor organizing.
posted by Frowner at 12:54 PM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
It doesn't. In response to the question "Maybe set up your own factory in the USA?" it says that this was not possible because of the "current economic climate," which means nothing, and because "the availability of experienced, highly skilled labor and willingness of Americans to work in a repetitive factory job," which are two ways of saying "labor costs are too high" while blaming workers for that condition.
That last bit is simply not supported by the text.
"Current economic climate" means "we realized it would cost literally millions of dollars to rent a building, purchase industrial machinery, and hire and train a bunch of workers as well as a building manager and HR and so on, and insure everything, and hire people to ensure we were meeting health and safety standards, and pay the energy bills, and etc, rather than ordering products to spec from an existing factory."
Two designers cannot and should not attempt to build a factory all by themselves!
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:55 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
That last bit is simply not supported by the text.
"Current economic climate" means "we realized it would cost literally millions of dollars to rent a building, purchase industrial machinery, and hire and train a bunch of workers as well as a building manager and HR and so on, and insure everything, and hire people to ensure we were meeting health and safety standards, and pay the energy bills, and etc, rather than ordering products to spec from an existing factory."
Two designers cannot and should not attempt to build a factory all by themselves!
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:55 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
shockingbluamp, I'm curious to know where your list came from. Just to check it out I looked at public records for companies in LA County; California Magdesians doesn't appear to be manufacturing in LA County anymore, for the last three years or so. At least, not under that name. CYDWOQ appears to have a shipping facility in Burbank, but does not appear to be manufacturing here, even if they did in the past. Is it possible that these companies are using off-shore "Made in the USA" labels, as the link talked about?
posted by vignettist at 12:57 PM on April 3, 2015
posted by vignettist at 12:57 PM on April 3, 2015
They didn't invent the economics of globalized labor and it's not their job to fix it. They just want to make nice shoes.
posted by fraxil at 1:01 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by fraxil at 1:01 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
"Current economic climate" means "we realized it would cost literally millions of dollars to rent a building, purchase industrial machinery, and hire and train a bunch of workers as well as a building manager and HR and so on, and insure everything, and hire people to ensure we were meeting health and safety standards, and pay the energy bills, and etc, rather than ordering products to spec from an existing factory."
Sorry, where are you getting all that from? I guess that's one possible reading (though pretty expansive!) of "current economic conditions" but I think there are a lot of other possible, and equally plausible, readings.
posted by burden at 1:02 PM on April 3, 2015
Sorry, where are you getting all that from? I guess that's one possible reading (though pretty expansive!) of "current economic conditions" but I think there are a lot of other possible, and equally plausible, readings.
posted by burden at 1:02 PM on April 3, 2015
CYDWOQ asserts that it manufactures in the US - check out their website. I would be extremely surprised if they had moved offshore - they are a very small maker with a long history of US production and even their secondary line, Cliff Dweller, says "Made In California" on it. Being made in the US is their whole thing, and they're not big enough to pull an Allen Edmonds and offshore part of their production.
posted by Frowner at 1:03 PM on April 3, 2015
posted by Frowner at 1:03 PM on April 3, 2015
Another goal they might be able to set in the long run - a line of slightly more mainstream-looking boots and shoes at a higher price point from..oh, let's say a Spanish or Mexican maker---something like the boots they already have but a bit more robust and fashion-y.I think that would make sense if they were shoemakers who decided that the big money was in historical reenactment footwear. But they're actually historical costumers who decided to make a living by filling a need in the historical costuming community, and I'm not sure they would necessarily be interested in making shoes that were mainstream and fashion-y. That's sort of not where their expertise lies.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 1:04 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
CYDWOQ appears to have a shipping facility in Burbank, but does not appear to be manufacturing here, even if they did in the past.
I have literally witnessed the manufacture of Cydwoq shoes in Burbank.
posted by kenko at 1:05 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have literally witnessed the manufacture of Cydwoq shoes in Burbank.
posted by kenko at 1:05 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sorry, where are you getting all that from? I guess that's one possible reading (though pretty expansive!) of "current economic conditions" but I think there are a lot of other possible, and equally plausible, readings.
Oh, sure, the real answer to "why not build your own factory" can't possibly be "that's astonishingly fucking expensive to do." It must be something more insidious.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:07 PM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
Oh, sure, the real answer to "why not build your own factory" can't possibly be "that's astonishingly fucking expensive to do." It must be something more insidious.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:07 PM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
who dares wake from their dark slumber the forces of the City Commission on Industrial Zoning and Planning
posted by a manly man person who is male and masculine at 1:09 PM on April 3, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by a manly man person who is male and masculine at 1:09 PM on April 3, 2015 [10 favorites]
But I'll bite. Why else do you think this nerdy designer couple decided not to build and staff a brand new factory to support their small business based on a hobby?
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:10 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:10 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
I have literally witnessed the manufacture of Cydwoq shoes in Burbank.
Yes, but the point of the question was when? Unless you were personally there in the last 12 months, they may have off-shored since you were there. At least, from what can be surmised from public records.
posted by vignettist at 1:12 PM on April 3, 2015
Yes, but the point of the question was when? Unless you were personally there in the last 12 months, they may have off-shored since you were there. At least, from what can be surmised from public records.
posted by vignettist at 1:12 PM on April 3, 2015
Two designers cannot and should not attempt to build a factory all by themselves!
Nor, from what I can see, was that ever really their goal.
I hate that this thread has turned so negative, largely after my comment. Designers paying a manufacturer is s.o.p. I'm guessing many are reacting strongly to them framing the suckiness of the necessity of using offshore labor as actually kind of a positive thing?
I dunno. It's hard to bring a product to market.
posted by Think_Long at 1:12 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Nor, from what I can see, was that ever really their goal.
I hate that this thread has turned so negative, largely after my comment. Designers paying a manufacturer is s.o.p. I'm guessing many are reacting strongly to them framing the suckiness of the necessity of using offshore labor as actually kind of a positive thing?
I dunno. It's hard to bring a product to market.
posted by Think_Long at 1:12 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
And I don't know. I have a soft spot in general for weirdos, geeks and obsessives, and I have a soft spot in particular for this specific species of weird, geeky obsessive, but I think there's something kind of awesome and charming about people who get into an obscure hobby, start a blogspot blog that gathers a big following, and turn it into a niche business. That story makes me nothing but happy, even if they can't manufacture their products in the way that they would prefer.
I personally kind of want to get into historical shoemaking now, but I suspect the cost of tools and materials would be prohibitive, and I'd be surprised if I could find someone to teach me how to do it. I have also seriously considered trying to teach myself millinery, which might be more feasible.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 1:13 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
I personally kind of want to get into historical shoemaking now, but I suspect the cost of tools and materials would be prohibitive, and I'd be surprised if I could find someone to teach me how to do it. I have also seriously considered trying to teach myself millinery, which might be more feasible.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 1:13 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Whoa, Frowner, those Trippen shoes are nifty.
They really are. Any of the "Closed" line are really, really durable - the others can be lovely and are well-made but more delicate. I had mine resoled after a couple of years of wear but for gender-presentation reasons don't really wear them anymore - I gave away one pair and kept one just in case.
I have had several pairs of their boots too via eBay.
Because the dollar is strong right now, they're a bit more affordable if you're able to spend ~$280 including shipping from Germany.
Another thing to consider with Trippen and Cydwoq - those shoes are designed to be made at that price point. Cydwoq has a standard last-production method and their shoes are unlined and made out of simple cut pieces of leather, which reduces the amount of work involved. They also incorporate visible stitching into the design. Many models of Trippen are unlined and made using cleverly cut leather; they use a couple of standardized soles and lasts; and they incorporate heavy, visible stitching. Basically, it looks to me like Trippen and Cydwoq kind of started with "we want to incorporate THIS kind of leather and THIS kind of labor and THIS level of quality; how can we design our shoes to make that possible?"
If you're starting from "I want to make shoes that look like 18th century court shoes" you're coming at design from a very different place.
posted by Frowner at 1:14 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
The advantage to being made in America is that you can monitor what the factory is doing without having to fly across the Pacific. Also you don't have to ship across the Pacific. And you speak the same language. And you are in the same legal system if problems arise. It simplifies the process.
posted by Bee'sWing at 1:16 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Bee'sWing at 1:16 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Personally, I don't see why a company like American Duchess has to apologize for making their shoes in China in the first place.
It sounds like they have trouble justifying their business even among people on MF, so maybe it's not all that difficult to understand.
But I think there's another interesting possibility as to why they may find the need to explain themselves: they sell European styled shoes. I've found in other fields there is a weird kind of racism regarding things traditionally European or American being manufactured in the far East. As if things European or American can (or should) be made only by the people who invented them. Even if those actual people are long dead. Perhaps it's just a darker side to the drive for authenticity?
posted by 2N2222 at 1:16 PM on April 3, 2015
It sounds like they have trouble justifying their business even among people on MF, so maybe it's not all that difficult to understand.
But I think there's another interesting possibility as to why they may find the need to explain themselves: they sell European styled shoes. I've found in other fields there is a weird kind of racism regarding things traditionally European or American being manufactured in the far East. As if things European or American can (or should) be made only by the people who invented them. Even if those actual people are long dead. Perhaps it's just a darker side to the drive for authenticity?
posted by 2N2222 at 1:16 PM on April 3, 2015
To clarify, since there is apparently some lingering confusion, the most obvious reason they would feel the need to justify the country in which they manufacture their shoes is that the name of their company is American Duchess. Unless I'm missing something.
posted by dialetheia at 1:22 PM on April 3, 2015
posted by dialetheia at 1:22 PM on April 3, 2015
The Duchess is American; that doens't mean her shoes are.
posted by kenko at 1:24 PM on April 3, 2015
posted by kenko at 1:24 PM on April 3, 2015
I really love their 1920s shoes and have considered getting some for myself. I have no idea whether they would be comfy for everyday wear.
I was struck by the similarity of many of the 1920s styles to John Fluevog's current line up, especially the Kitschy Kitschy Boom Boom and Bellevue's families.
Fluevog's aren't cheap or historically accurate, but they are super well made and comfy and last a long long time. They also aren't made in the US or Canada (where the company is based), but most families aren't made in China.
posted by sparklemotion at 1:24 PM on April 3, 2015
I was struck by the similarity of many of the 1920s styles to John Fluevog's current line up, especially the Kitschy Kitschy Boom Boom and Bellevue's families.
Fluevog's aren't cheap or historically accurate, but they are super well made and comfy and last a long long time. They also aren't made in the US or Canada (where the company is based), but most families aren't made in China.
posted by sparklemotion at 1:24 PM on April 3, 2015
> No, I'm not joking. I understand that some people prefer to "buy American" and tags saying "Made in the USA" are often used as marketing tools. But I don't think there is anything particularly "natural" about that.
Here are the three reasons why I would prefer to buy American made goods over something produced in China and other low-cost countries:
1. If you're operating/buying from a factory in the US, you're likely not interested in racing to the bottom and your goods are likely higher quality.
2. Production of goods is subject to much higher labor/environmental/safety standards.
3. Buying American made goods puts a much higher percentage of my money (hopefully 100%) back into the American economy, directly benefiting my community.
None of that is blind American exceptionalism.
posted by ReadEvalPost at 1:28 PM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
Here are the three reasons why I would prefer to buy American made goods over something produced in China and other low-cost countries:
1. If you're operating/buying from a factory in the US, you're likely not interested in racing to the bottom and your goods are likely higher quality.
2. Production of goods is subject to much higher labor/environmental/safety standards.
3. Buying American made goods puts a much higher percentage of my money (hopefully 100%) back into the American economy, directly benefiting my community.
None of that is blind American exceptionalism.
posted by ReadEvalPost at 1:28 PM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
...the most obvious reason they would feel the need to justify the country in which they manufacture their shoes is that the name of their company is American Duchess...
I mean:
1- The name
2- Curiosity of customers who are also hobby clothing manufactures
3- All those stories in the news about Foxconn etc. working conditions
....
313- Publicly rationalizing not being brave enough to start a factory and Fix America
315- Coded communique about the activities of Agent Green in Guangzhou
314- Appeasement of customer base consisting of cryptoracist reenactment enthusiasts
posted by a manly man person who is male and masculine at 1:28 PM on April 3, 2015 [8 favorites]
I mean:
1- The name
2- Curiosity of customers who are also hobby clothing manufactures
3- All those stories in the news about Foxconn etc. working conditions
....
313- Publicly rationalizing not being brave enough to start a factory and Fix America
315- Coded communique about the activities of Agent Green in Guangzhou
314- Appeasement of customer base consisting of cryptoracist reenactment enthusiasts
posted by a manly man person who is male and masculine at 1:28 PM on April 3, 2015 [8 favorites]
If I had to guess, I would guess that you are right and they didn't set up a manufacturing shop in the US because it was too expensive in terms of money, or time, or attention, or all of these. But that's not the reason they gave on the page devoted to explaining their reasons for not opening up a factory in the US. Instead, they cited "current economic conditions" and blamed workers for not being "available" (at the rates they wanted, or could afford, to pay) and for not wanting repetitive work.
I don't care that they make these shoes in China. As far as I can tell, no one in this thread has said that it is wrong for them to make the shoes in China. I care that they are trying to make themselves look like a labor-friendly company while making shoes in China. And I care that they are attempting to justify their decision in part on negative stereotypes about American workers.
posted by burden at 1:30 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
I don't care that they make these shoes in China. As far as I can tell, no one in this thread has said that it is wrong for them to make the shoes in China. I care that they are trying to make themselves look like a labor-friendly company while making shoes in China. And I care that they are attempting to justify their decision in part on negative stereotypes about American workers.
posted by burden at 1:30 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
The tl;dr I took from it was that they want to make a low volume of relatively low-value-added goods, which the US economy is for reals not great at. Do you want to make a relatively low volume of high-value-added goods like cars or drugs or farm machinery? US manufacturers are great at that. Do you want to make a staggeringly, mind-bogglingly huge quantity of low-value-added widgets? The US can do that pretty well too. But making only relatively few goods of relatively low value-added is not really in the playbook.
Does anyone know what it used to cost for a nice pair of shoes back in the 1800s or even early 1900s, adjusted for inflation?
In addition to what others have noted, another way to think of this is (with numbers from casual googling and half-assed assumptions) that in 1910-ish it would take an average worker about 7 hours of work to pay for a pair of shoes, and in 2010 it would take an average worker about 3 1/2 hours to do so.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:47 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Does anyone know what it used to cost for a nice pair of shoes back in the 1800s or even early 1900s, adjusted for inflation?
In addition to what others have noted, another way to think of this is (with numbers from casual googling and half-assed assumptions) that in 1910-ish it would take an average worker about 7 hours of work to pay for a pair of shoes, and in 2010 it would take an average worker about 3 1/2 hours to do so.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 1:47 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is the word you're looking for "difficult"? Is it that it is too "difficult" to open a factory? Is the phrase you're searching for here "it is extremely difficult to build, operate, and maintain a full-scale factory"?
Too expensive, and maybe also they're unwilling to try? But expensive is the element I addressed in the following paragraph.
As to other difficulty, maybe we're not talking difficulty on the scale of Henry Ford figuring out how to make cars for the masses. I don't know, because in the article they wave their hands about not opening a factory, as in it's just not an option, and I'd be interested (not skeptical, interested) in what difficulties they would face opening a small scale production on their own, aside from costs for equipment and space.
posted by zippy at 2:07 PM on April 3, 2015
Too expensive, and maybe also they're unwilling to try? But expensive is the element I addressed in the following paragraph.
As to other difficulty, maybe we're not talking difficulty on the scale of Henry Ford figuring out how to make cars for the masses. I don't know, because in the article they wave their hands about not opening a factory, as in it's just not an option, and I'd be interested (not skeptical, interested) in what difficulties they would face opening a small scale production on their own, aside from costs for equipment and space.
posted by zippy at 2:07 PM on April 3, 2015
Think about how much labor makes the difference between $100 shoes and $450 shoes. Even at $20 an hour that's 15.5 hours on labor alone. How many hours does it take to make a pair of shoes?
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:46 AM on April 3
For boutique shoes that aren't cranked out on an assembly line, 30-40 hours.
posted by Awful Peice of Crap at 2:13 PM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:46 AM on April 3
For boutique shoes that aren't cranked out on an assembly line, 30-40 hours.
posted by Awful Peice of Crap at 2:13 PM on April 3, 2015 [4 favorites]
1- The name
I give them credit that they're dispelling the notion that the shoes are US-made.
I'm reminded of these Charles Tyrwhitt dress shirts that are advertised heavily as "British"shirts, with the Union Jack and "Jermyn Street London" tagline on the logo. You really have to dig far down to learn that they're made nowhere near London.
posted by dr_dank at 2:14 PM on April 3, 2015
I give them credit that they're dispelling the notion that the shoes are US-made.
I'm reminded of these Charles Tyrwhitt dress shirts that are advertised heavily as "British"shirts, with the Union Jack and "Jermyn Street London" tagline on the logo. You really have to dig far down to learn that they're made nowhere near London.
posted by dr_dank at 2:14 PM on April 3, 2015
$500 for a pair of shoes entirely for costume seems almost more sensible, to me. You're talking about people who have disposable income. I know people who've spent huge amounts of money on things like armor for SCA or renfaire stuff. Expecting to have specialty period clothing and NOT spend an arm and a leg on it seems to be the really ridiculous thing. Plenty of the SCA kind of costuming is done by individuals who do, as far as I know, charge for their labor at appropriate rates. If their client base isn't willing to pay what specialty goods like that cost if produced in the US, this is one of the few areas where I'm fully willing to blame the consumers. There's no way a company like this could just make up-front investment and really make it up in volume, I don't think, unless a lot more people take up hobbies that involve period costume.
posted by Sequence at 2:27 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Sequence at 2:27 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's fairly baffling that people are just saying "why in the world don't these two bloggers build and run their own full scale factory to produce an extremely small number of niche historical reenactment projects?" and acting like that is a reasonable question.
posted by bracems at 2:33 PM on April 3, 2015 [23 favorites]
posted by bracems at 2:33 PM on April 3, 2015 [23 favorites]
"> No, I'm not joking. I understand that some people prefer to "buy American" and tags saying "Made in the USA" are often used as marketing tools. But I don't think there is anything particularly "natural" about that."
Is this really just an American thing? Don't people in other countries prefer that the things they buy be made in those countries, for a variety of economic and social reasons?
posted by jonathanhughes at 2:34 PM on April 3, 2015
Is this really just an American thing? Don't people in other countries prefer that the things they buy be made in those countries, for a variety of economic and social reasons?
posted by jonathanhughes at 2:34 PM on April 3, 2015
There are a number of shoe companies that manufacture in the US, but these places aren't going to be able to slot in production or re-tool for the small number of pairs that American Duchess is going to sell. Alden shoes (for men) cost a lot more than $150 a pair (same with Walkover's women's line.)
posted by Ideefixe at 2:49 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Ideefixe at 2:49 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
The 1897 Sears-Roebuck Catalogue has a pair of shoes that look very similar to the AD "Renoir" boots ($190) priced at $2.98, which according to the Inflation Calculator is about $83.45 today.
That is not a very sophisticated way of making this comparison. You can get a much more nuanced view using the "table" view at the Measuring Worth calculator. This will show you that, sure, the CPI equivalent is around 86 bucks, but what's more important is the affordability of $3 shoes in 1897 to someone in 2015. For this, you need to look at different measures. In short, $3 shoes are about as affordable to a middle class person (presumably the target demographic) in 1897 as $700 shoes in 2015.
posted by slkinsey at 2:56 PM on April 3, 2015 [11 favorites]
That is not a very sophisticated way of making this comparison. You can get a much more nuanced view using the "table" view at the Measuring Worth calculator. This will show you that, sure, the CPI equivalent is around 86 bucks, but what's more important is the affordability of $3 shoes in 1897 to someone in 2015. For this, you need to look at different measures. In short, $3 shoes are about as affordable to a middle class person (presumably the target demographic) in 1897 as $700 shoes in 2015.
posted by slkinsey at 2:56 PM on April 3, 2015 [11 favorites]
It's fairly baffling that people are just saying "why in the world don't these two bloggers build and run their own full scale factory to produce an extremely small number of niche historical reenactment projects?" and acting like that is a reasonable question.I think it's more like "how dare middle-income people think they should be able to have interesting hobbies." Also that weird thing where people here talk about middle-income folks like we're some sort of weird alternative species, rather than folks who could be reading this and posting here.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 2:57 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
I found a flyer from 1910 with the following prices [and I added a CPI inflated price]:
Stetson Corndogger shoes: $4.50 [$105.67]
Fancy overcoats: $20 to $32. [$469 to $751]
Fancy Fall Suits: $20 to $35. [$469 to $821]
Carpets: $1.10 per yard [$25.83]
I also found some factory wage information:
Soda Clerk: $10/week [$234/week]
Meat Clerk: $13.50/week [$317/week]
Finish carpenters: $4 for 8-hour day [$94/day]
Housekeeper: $7/week (may been live-in) [$165/week]
Hotel waitress: $16/week
Mail clerk: $30/week [$704]
You could be a mail clerk with a high school diploma. The equivalent of a $40k job today. Of that $30, you could get a furnished room for $4-$10/week with utilities included.
There was plenty of employment for people who simply wanted to work. No skills required, no degrees, no nothing.
I would love to know the reason we could not have that now. I suspect it is because we want to have cheap consumer goods, most of which go unused at any given point of time. We want to have 20 pairs of shoes at $40/each instead of settling for 4 pairs for $100/each. In order to make that happen, we must make the shoes in China. As this happens in every industry, we wind up with a crappy consumer economy with dirt wages unless you are exceptionally skilled.
posted by RalphSlate at 3:25 PM on April 3, 2015
Stetson Corndogger shoes: $4.50 [$105.67]
Fancy overcoats: $20 to $32. [$469 to $751]
Fancy Fall Suits: $20 to $35. [$469 to $821]
Carpets: $1.10 per yard [$25.83]
I also found some factory wage information:
Soda Clerk: $10/week [$234/week]
Meat Clerk: $13.50/week [$317/week]
Finish carpenters: $4 for 8-hour day [$94/day]
Housekeeper: $7/week (may been live-in) [$165/week]
Hotel waitress: $16/week
Mail clerk: $30/week [$704]
You could be a mail clerk with a high school diploma. The equivalent of a $40k job today. Of that $30, you could get a furnished room for $4-$10/week with utilities included.
There was plenty of employment for people who simply wanted to work. No skills required, no degrees, no nothing.
I would love to know the reason we could not have that now. I suspect it is because we want to have cheap consumer goods, most of which go unused at any given point of time. We want to have 20 pairs of shoes at $40/each instead of settling for 4 pairs for $100/each. In order to make that happen, we must make the shoes in China. As this happens in every industry, we wind up with a crappy consumer economy with dirt wages unless you are exceptionally skilled.
posted by RalphSlate at 3:25 PM on April 3, 2015
They're in Reno, Nevada. It's not exactly a hotbed of manufacturing. There probably isn't a pool of American workers standing around waiting for someone to hire them to work in a factory, especially a small one with a niche market. The job market is probably focused on casinos, tourism, and related industries.
But let's do an exercise.
I found an ideal property for their little shoe factory. It's a flex space with different sizes suites. Let's pick the smallest, 7625 square feet. At .59psf per month, that's about $4,500 per month, or $54,000 per year.
You need business insurances of varying types: call that $1,200 per month, or $14,400/yr
You need health insurance for the crew: call it 6 people, $450 per month per person: $2,700 per month or $32,400/yr
You need to cover payroll, including taxes:
- Assume one office staff, $31,000/yr - this is one of our owners.
- Assume one "master" shoemaker - $35,000/yr - this is the other owner.
- Assume 4 production workers: $25,000/yr each, total $100,000
Total payroll: $166,000/yr
Total payroll taxes (a guess, and probably a very low one): $20,000/yr
Utilities including phone/internet: $1,200 per month or $14,400/yr
Total it up:
$301,200 per year, or $25,100 per month. In pure, 100% non-manufacturing costs.
That's 157 pairs of shoes per month in sales (at $160 per pair as a guess). To cover the "rent".
But there are manufacturing costs.
Let's assume that 60% of that is material cost. The stuff they have to buy to make the shoes. That's $96.00 per pair, or $15,000 per month (roughly).
Add your non-man and man costs: $40,000 per month in total operating cost. For a 6 person operation.
Nothing in here about capital equipment, niche materials, specialty or one-off batches. Just making $160 shoes, all day, every day.
THAT is why people don't do this for a living, because you can't. Shoemaking isn't easy. It's labor intensive and has expensive material costs. I'm sure I low balled this quite a bit in those areas.
By the way the labor rates are from the state of Nevada's "Nevada Workforce Informer" website. And the production worker rate comes out to be about $2,100 per month gross, or about $12.00 per hour.
Ain't nobody getting rich making shoes, is what I'm saying.
posted by disclaimer at 3:32 PM on April 3, 2015 [24 favorites]
But let's do an exercise.
I found an ideal property for their little shoe factory. It's a flex space with different sizes suites. Let's pick the smallest, 7625 square feet. At .59psf per month, that's about $4,500 per month, or $54,000 per year.
You need business insurances of varying types: call that $1,200 per month, or $14,400/yr
You need health insurance for the crew: call it 6 people, $450 per month per person: $2,700 per month or $32,400/yr
You need to cover payroll, including taxes:
- Assume one office staff, $31,000/yr - this is one of our owners.
- Assume one "master" shoemaker - $35,000/yr - this is the other owner.
- Assume 4 production workers: $25,000/yr each, total $100,000
Total payroll: $166,000/yr
Total payroll taxes (a guess, and probably a very low one): $20,000/yr
Utilities including phone/internet: $1,200 per month or $14,400/yr
Total it up:
$301,200 per year, or $25,100 per month. In pure, 100% non-manufacturing costs.
That's 157 pairs of shoes per month in sales (at $160 per pair as a guess). To cover the "rent".
But there are manufacturing costs.
Let's assume that 60% of that is material cost. The stuff they have to buy to make the shoes. That's $96.00 per pair, or $15,000 per month (roughly).
Add your non-man and man costs: $40,000 per month in total operating cost. For a 6 person operation.
Nothing in here about capital equipment, niche materials, specialty or one-off batches. Just making $160 shoes, all day, every day.
THAT is why people don't do this for a living, because you can't. Shoemaking isn't easy. It's labor intensive and has expensive material costs. I'm sure I low balled this quite a bit in those areas.
By the way the labor rates are from the state of Nevada's "Nevada Workforce Informer" website. And the production worker rate comes out to be about $2,100 per month gross, or about $12.00 per hour.
Ain't nobody getting rich making shoes, is what I'm saying.
posted by disclaimer at 3:32 PM on April 3, 2015 [24 favorites]
I get that everyone on mefi is in tech and makes 6 figure salaries but I don't own 20 pairs of $40 shoes, I own three pairs of $20-40 each. If I had to pay $100/pair, I don't know that I'd own shoes because I couldn't afford to.
posted by Aranquis at 3:36 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Aranquis at 3:36 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
I completely underestimated those payroll taxes, I think. I'm guessing they're a lot closer to $50,000 a year than $20,000 but it's dinner time and I don't feel like actually calculating it.
posted by disclaimer at 3:38 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by disclaimer at 3:38 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
By the way, my little calculation up there is break-even. No profit. To actually make a 25% profit, they'd need to make 197 pairs of shoes at that $160.00 price point.
posted by disclaimer at 3:44 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by disclaimer at 3:44 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I get that making them in the US at the volume and price point they'd like to is unfeasible. But on the other hand, when they write stuff like this:
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with manufacturing things overseas, but there are a lot of reasonable concerns that are obfuscated in the discussion, and their rosy view of Chinese labor seems willfully naive.
posted by klangklangston at 4:06 PM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
Skilled and experienced employees now interview employers, and choose where they wish to work. If an employee has an issue with an employer then they usually have the option to move jobs to a company that treats it's workers well.I just assume that a fair amount of the rest of their explanations are bullshit too. There have been a bunch of stories on labor conditions in China recently, including outlets like Marketplace, and the idea that skilled workers are free to pick and choose just does not jibe with the widely-reported practice of bribing your way into decent factory jobs, let alone interviews with laborers in a variety of industries. It's like they read a brochure from the managers of the factory that happened to flatter a neoliberal fantasy of theirs and decided to roll with it.
I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with manufacturing things overseas, but there are a lot of reasonable concerns that are obfuscated in the discussion, and their rosy view of Chinese labor seems willfully naive.
posted by klangklangston at 4:06 PM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
- Assume 4 production workers: $25,000/yr each, total $100,000
remember that they want experienced shoemakers - are they really going to find 4 experienced shoemakers in the reno, nevada area? - and i don't know if anyone's going to move to a new town for a 25K job
12 dollar an hour jobs aren't that hard to come by in most sections of this country
posted by pyramid termite at 4:06 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
remember that they want experienced shoemakers - are they really going to find 4 experienced shoemakers in the reno, nevada area? - and i don't know if anyone's going to move to a new town for a 25K job
12 dollar an hour jobs aren't that hard to come by in most sections of this country
posted by pyramid termite at 4:06 PM on April 3, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, pyramid, you're right, for their outsourced solution. But my experience with small factories - I contract with a few to provide them services - is that they'd rather have a chief that knows a lot about how to make their product, and then train relatively unskilled people to do the work their way. The labor cost is lower, and it's a lot easier to control product quality. Or so they say. Myself, if I were ever in that position again, I'd hire skilled people, pay them more, and not worry so much about "my way" than "the right way".
posted by disclaimer at 4:15 PM on April 3, 2015
posted by disclaimer at 4:15 PM on April 3, 2015
Which brings me to another thing I left out of the non-manufacturing costs: contracted services, like IT support, building services, marketing, website/catalog management, payroll/HR services, accounting...
posted by disclaimer at 4:17 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by disclaimer at 4:17 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
Sorry pyramid, I misread you. You're right, they're not going to find 4 skilled shoemakers at that rate in Reno, which leaves them in a pinch anyway.
Sure am glad they don't exist, my little fictional company is in trouble already!
posted by disclaimer at 4:19 PM on April 3, 2015
Sure am glad they don't exist, my little fictional company is in trouble already!
posted by disclaimer at 4:19 PM on April 3, 2015
The startup economy is focused on ideas. It's not focused on making things. Telling the startup community that you want to actually make a physical product for people to buy is like loudly announcing that you're insane.
This is... not true. Like really really really not true.
It's just that if you want to make physical objects to sell, you're probably going to have to manufacture them in China.
posted by asterix at 4:24 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is... not true. Like really really really not true.
It's just that if you want to make physical objects to sell, you're probably going to have to manufacture them in China.
posted by asterix at 4:24 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
It's just that if you want to make physical objects to sell, you're probably going to have to manufacture them in China.
That's what I learned from this article (and disclaimer's analysis). It's obvious in retrospect that the same things that drive small scale tech hardware startups to make things in China would apply to other areas too.
And if we're going to bring manufacturing back to the US, a *big* part of that is going to require either the creation of pools of factories, ready to take on OEM work, or government policies aimed at encouraging existing factories to do so.
Because at a small scale, there's no way you can do it and employee people. The startup costs are too high. And once you're up and running in China, there's strong incentive to continue -- the factory you're working with can ramp up easier than you can move operations to the US, even if the scale makes sense.
posted by zippy at 4:32 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
That's what I learned from this article (and disclaimer's analysis). It's obvious in retrospect that the same things that drive small scale tech hardware startups to make things in China would apply to other areas too.
And if we're going to bring manufacturing back to the US, a *big* part of that is going to require either the creation of pools of factories, ready to take on OEM work, or government policies aimed at encouraging existing factories to do so.
Because at a small scale, there's no way you can do it and employee people. The startup costs are too high. And once you're up and running in China, there's strong incentive to continue -- the factory you're working with can ramp up easier than you can move operations to the US, even if the scale makes sense.
posted by zippy at 4:32 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
And if we're going to bring manufacturing back to the US
There's lots of manufacturing in the US. It just mostly isn't cheap consumer goods.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:36 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
There's lots of manufacturing in the US. It just mostly isn't cheap consumer goods.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 4:36 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
As someone who lives in Hong Kong, I would be the first to tell you there are both ethical and quality issues with the factories in China. However, there also are ethical factories. There are smart motivated Chinese businessmen who want to treat their employees in a good way. There are associations of small factories who work to get certification from external agencies. There are a number of associations for ethical fashion which certify factories in China (and throughout Asia).
The problem with China is that you cannot really rely on the government to enforce their own laws. It's important to remember that while Beijing actually has some very reasonable laws protecting worker's rights, their reach doesn't extend to all parts of the country in the same way. And they must constantly weigh which problem they tackle first. They can deal with exploited labor, or they can deal with the horrible issues in food production or pollution. Always a question of priorities. To produce in China means that if you sincerely care about ethics, you either have to rely on these associations to vet their members or you have to invest a lot of time and effort in your own qa.
But I had to blink with astonishment at an earlier comment which seemed to be positing that Mexican production was on the face of it more ethical than Chinese. Seriously? On what grounds? Geographical proximity to the good old USA? Mexico has huge problems with with corruption and enforcement, just like China.
posted by frumiousb at 4:53 PM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
The problem with China is that you cannot really rely on the government to enforce their own laws. It's important to remember that while Beijing actually has some very reasonable laws protecting worker's rights, their reach doesn't extend to all parts of the country in the same way. And they must constantly weigh which problem they tackle first. They can deal with exploited labor, or they can deal with the horrible issues in food production or pollution. Always a question of priorities. To produce in China means that if you sincerely care about ethics, you either have to rely on these associations to vet their members or you have to invest a lot of time and effort in your own qa.
But I had to blink with astonishment at an earlier comment which seemed to be positing that Mexican production was on the face of it more ethical than Chinese. Seriously? On what grounds? Geographical proximity to the good old USA? Mexico has huge problems with with corruption and enforcement, just like China.
posted by frumiousb at 4:53 PM on April 3, 2015 [6 favorites]
I toured a denim factory here in the US making high-end jeans. The manager talked at length about how they were concerned about the future of the plant because the old machines turned out a superior product but the only people who knew how to operate them were on average sixty years old.
Not only are there issues with getting people in the door to do the work, it's also critical that you have skilled people who can do the work. Since we've outsourced so much manufacturing we are losing that skill base in our communities.
Two historical reenactors are not going to be able to start a factory and run it successfully. I'm amazed they'd even look at it.
posted by winna at 4:56 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
Not only are there issues with getting people in the door to do the work, it's also critical that you have skilled people who can do the work. Since we've outsourced so much manufacturing we are losing that skill base in our communities.
Two historical reenactors are not going to be able to start a factory and run it successfully. I'm amazed they'd even look at it.
posted by winna at 4:56 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
There's a WSJ article about a Hong Kong-based contract shoe manufacturing company opening a plant in Tennessee. Part of the solution was to buy more complex robots to reduce the higher labor costs, and not having to ship American leather across the Pacific. (The boxes are still imported from China, though.)
Something like PCB manufacturing, where the supply chain is much longer and the equipment much more expensive -- that's gone, at least at large volumes. That's why Macbooks are "Assembled in USA".
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:00 PM on April 3, 2015
Something like PCB manufacturing, where the supply chain is much longer and the equipment much more expensive -- that's gone, at least at large volumes. That's why Macbooks are "Assembled in USA".
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 5:00 PM on April 3, 2015
I said “Honey, let's do it. Let's stay right here.”
bring manufacturing back to the US
Yeah, the GDP -- with the beginning of the Great Recession being an exception -- continues to rise at a healthy year-over-year level. It's more critical to consider that manufacturing, at a modern level, doesn't employ people the way it used to.
We have attracted a company that will build a brand new $200M plant in our city that will make a product competing for a slice of a $6B (by 2030) global market. The thing is, they make radioisotopes (specifically, molybdenum 99, used in medical imaging) and they expect to employ 150 people. That's a pittance compared to the GM plant a mile away that used to employ seven thousand people on three shifts.
And even new car plants in the US have very few employees by historical standards.
posted by dhartung at 5:07 PM on April 3, 2015
bring manufacturing back to the US
Yeah, the GDP -- with the beginning of the Great Recession being an exception -- continues to rise at a healthy year-over-year level. It's more critical to consider that manufacturing, at a modern level, doesn't employ people the way it used to.
We have attracted a company that will build a brand new $200M plant in our city that will make a product competing for a slice of a $6B (by 2030) global market. The thing is, they make radioisotopes (specifically, molybdenum 99, used in medical imaging) and they expect to employ 150 people. That's a pittance compared to the GM plant a mile away that used to employ seven thousand people on three shifts.
And even new car plants in the US have very few employees by historical standards.
posted by dhartung at 5:07 PM on April 3, 2015
What, aside from labor costs, made it easier to set up manufacturing in China rather than in the US?
One thing that I haven't seen discussed so far is the Silicon Valley problem, or more properly the cluster effect. In other words, it's easy to open a start-up in Silicon Valley because the people, the funders, the physical space, and the connectivity needs are all ready to go and present in that geographic area. That's less the case in, say, Oklahoma City and as a result we see a large number of start-ups in Silicon Valley and relatively few in OKC.
So when you're looking to design and manufacture shoes and you're new to the game, you end up in the place where others have already put together the people, the physical space, and the materials necessary to do so. At the moment, that's China first and foremost with a few other countries trailing behind (countries which they discuss in their FAQ).
I disagree pretty strongly with their dismissal of the environmental and people-related concerns--China has grown their middle class as part of the reforms and there are more options for factory workers but that's not really tackling the environmental cost at all and there's a lot of concern right now about the economy slowing down so I wouldn't necessarily count on employee mobility continuing to increase.
I work with people who are trying to decide whether to open factories and manufacturing locations in the US. A lot of them end up with figures in the millions of dollars as well (even in my business-friendly corner of the country) and that's when the conversation moves to China. Chinese firms present IP concerns in addition to environmental and other ethical concerns, but they do keep the costs down.
The human cost of low prices is something which the Chinese government has decided to dance with and the US government has mostly stepped away from. It will be a great day for our little blue ball when a country figures out how to grow into a wealthier state without destroying its environment and poisoning its people first.
posted by librarylis at 5:12 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
One thing that I haven't seen discussed so far is the Silicon Valley problem, or more properly the cluster effect. In other words, it's easy to open a start-up in Silicon Valley because the people, the funders, the physical space, and the connectivity needs are all ready to go and present in that geographic area. That's less the case in, say, Oklahoma City and as a result we see a large number of start-ups in Silicon Valley and relatively few in OKC.
So when you're looking to design and manufacture shoes and you're new to the game, you end up in the place where others have already put together the people, the physical space, and the materials necessary to do so. At the moment, that's China first and foremost with a few other countries trailing behind (countries which they discuss in their FAQ).
I disagree pretty strongly with their dismissal of the environmental and people-related concerns--China has grown their middle class as part of the reforms and there are more options for factory workers but that's not really tackling the environmental cost at all and there's a lot of concern right now about the economy slowing down so I wouldn't necessarily count on employee mobility continuing to increase.
I work with people who are trying to decide whether to open factories and manufacturing locations in the US. A lot of them end up with figures in the millions of dollars as well (even in my business-friendly corner of the country) and that's when the conversation moves to China. Chinese firms present IP concerns in addition to environmental and other ethical concerns, but they do keep the costs down.
The human cost of low prices is something which the Chinese government has decided to dance with and the US government has mostly stepped away from. It will be a great day for our little blue ball when a country figures out how to grow into a wealthier state without destroying its environment and poisoning its people first.
posted by librarylis at 5:12 PM on April 3, 2015 [2 favorites]
Wow. So I found the online haunt of the historical shoemakers, and those people are hardcore. Like, you can't take up historical shoe-making as a hobby. Shoe-making is a craft. Treating it as a hobby is an affront to a thousand years of cordwaining tradition and to all the heroic cordwainers who have gone before you. If you are interested in historical shoe-making, the thing to do is quit your job, move to a place where there is a master shoe-maker (preferably certified as a master by one of the surviving cordwaining guilds), and become an apprentice.
I'm pretty sure those folks would not be even at all impressed by a pair of $500 shoes made in an American factory!
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:21 PM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
I'm pretty sure those folks would not be even at all impressed by a pair of $500 shoes made in an American factory!
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 5:21 PM on April 3, 2015 [7 favorites]
I actually know two people who went the "build your own factory" route. One makes clothes, and one makes boots. In both cases "factory" is a very loose term. Rented warehouse space and secondhand manufacturing equipment. Which had to be sourced from all over the country, because nobody really makes that stuff anymore at that scale. Along with sourcing the equipment, learning how to repair it is also part of the deal, because good luck finding someone who can fix an obscure shoemaking machine that hasn't been made in 50 years.
Neither of them can get any sort of serious investment to grow, so it's basically just a very expensive hobby. The reason they cant get any investment is that their products are too expensive for mass market without moving all production overseas. Of course, now they're no longer Handcrafted American goods made with care the old-fashioned way. Currently, their only market is people willing to spend a huge premium to have something "handmade" that not everyone else has. If they did take some money from investors, and move production overseas, now they're just competing with Carhartt or Red Wing, and unless you're completely revolutionizing some aspect of your industry, that's a losing battle and no Investor is going to give you that kind of money unless you're already moving units in mass market numbers. Which isn't gonna happen with $600 handcrafted "work" boots.
Interestingly, your best shot at making it with handcrafted made in the USA type clothing is to get a toehold in the Japanese market. There's a much bigger customer base willing to spend a premium for very specifically made and sourced goods. The problem with this strategy is now you have to compete with Japanese companies who have spent years buying up all of the old American manufacturing equipment, and either moving it to Japan, or setting up their own factories over here, and selling at a premium in Japan as "Made in the USA". The Real McCoys is a great example of what people are talking about here. A hobbyist who started a factory making very authentic reproductions. Expensive, but made at a scale to not be completely out of reach of their core audience. I think the difficulty of starting up something similar in the US is very high. Most of the successful Stateside companies working at any scale are legacy companies that have some infrastructure reaching back to a previous manufacturing era.
Shinola is a company trying to do "Made in the US" at scale as a new company. But really it's "assembled in the US" from parts sourced elsewhere. And out of 300 employees, half are in the factory, and the other half are in marketing, Sales and IT. Also it was started by the founder of Fossil, which is a $6b dollar business. Not exactly a hobbyist.
posted by billyfleetwood at 5:30 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
Neither of them can get any sort of serious investment to grow, so it's basically just a very expensive hobby. The reason they cant get any investment is that their products are too expensive for mass market without moving all production overseas. Of course, now they're no longer Handcrafted American goods made with care the old-fashioned way. Currently, their only market is people willing to spend a huge premium to have something "handmade" that not everyone else has. If they did take some money from investors, and move production overseas, now they're just competing with Carhartt or Red Wing, and unless you're completely revolutionizing some aspect of your industry, that's a losing battle and no Investor is going to give you that kind of money unless you're already moving units in mass market numbers. Which isn't gonna happen with $600 handcrafted "work" boots.
Interestingly, your best shot at making it with handcrafted made in the USA type clothing is to get a toehold in the Japanese market. There's a much bigger customer base willing to spend a premium for very specifically made and sourced goods. The problem with this strategy is now you have to compete with Japanese companies who have spent years buying up all of the old American manufacturing equipment, and either moving it to Japan, or setting up their own factories over here, and selling at a premium in Japan as "Made in the USA". The Real McCoys is a great example of what people are talking about here. A hobbyist who started a factory making very authentic reproductions. Expensive, but made at a scale to not be completely out of reach of their core audience. I think the difficulty of starting up something similar in the US is very high. Most of the successful Stateside companies working at any scale are legacy companies that have some infrastructure reaching back to a previous manufacturing era.
Shinola is a company trying to do "Made in the US" at scale as a new company. But really it's "assembled in the US" from parts sourced elsewhere. And out of 300 employees, half are in the factory, and the other half are in marketing, Sales and IT. Also it was started by the founder of Fossil, which is a $6b dollar business. Not exactly a hobbyist.
posted by billyfleetwood at 5:30 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
$500 isn't even high end anymore, my regular office dress shoes cost that much, and they're nothing special other than being very comfortable dress shoes. Maybe it's a women's shoes thing? Honestly, if you think you can't get your start in the market with shoes designed to sell for $500, you're not much of a designer. Once you get your market set with the higher end shoes, and proven to the other US manufacturers that you'll actually pay your bills and be worth setting up a production line for, then you design (checks) your shoes that cost about half as much.
I bet now that they have their cheap supplier in China, they never seriously consider a US manufacturer, despite this trending publicity probably bringing US manufacturer's sales reps to their doors hoping for an easy sell.
posted by Blackanvil at 6:03 PM on April 3, 2015
I bet now that they have their cheap supplier in China, they never seriously consider a US manufacturer, despite this trending publicity probably bringing US manufacturer's sales reps to their doors hoping for an easy sell.
posted by Blackanvil at 6:03 PM on April 3, 2015
This isn't just a boutique shoe company. It's a shoe company that creates period-pieces.
Well, for whatever it's worth I have a set of red wing "heritage" boots. The fanciest cork and leather sole brogued ones that are 1:1(supposedly) reproductions of 19th or early 20th century models.
They're 100% made in the U.S. and cost... $320? The quality is staggering as well.
posted by emptythought at 6:19 PM on April 3, 2015
Well, for whatever it's worth I have a set of red wing "heritage" boots. The fanciest cork and leather sole brogued ones that are 1:1(supposedly) reproductions of 19th or early 20th century models.
They're 100% made in the U.S. and cost... $320? The quality is staggering as well.
posted by emptythought at 6:19 PM on April 3, 2015
...And while I realize that $500 is chump change to a lot of people on Metafilter...
and
...I get that everyone on mefi is in tech and makes 6 figure salaries...
I wish we wouldn't do this here.
posted by Stu-Pendous at 6:54 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
and
...I get that everyone on mefi is in tech and makes 6 figure salaries...
I wish we wouldn't do this here.
posted by Stu-Pendous at 6:54 PM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]
I realize that I am literally the only person here who is interested in historical costuming, but just in case anyone is free this summer and wants to learn 18th century shoemaking techniques, Colonial Williamsburg is looking for paid interns.
I should do an FPP on historical costuming, just to amuse myself.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:10 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
I should do an FPP on historical costuming, just to amuse myself.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 8:10 PM on April 3, 2015 [5 favorites]
$500 isn't even high end anymore, my regular office dress shoes cost that much, and they're nothing special
mind blown....who are these people? 500 bucks is my clothes budget for 8 months or more...
mifi s are a helluva lot more 1% than they pretend to be. Insane.
posted by shockingbluamp at 8:41 PM on April 3, 2015 [18 favorites]
mind blown....who are these people? 500 bucks is my clothes budget for 8 months or more...
mifi s are a helluva lot more 1% than they pretend to be. Insane.
posted by shockingbluamp at 8:41 PM on April 3, 2015 [18 favorites]
I wish we wouldn't do this here.
To be fair 9/10ths of the people on here seem to make more than me, and if I had to non-snarkily guess I'd say the median has to be way north of 60k.
I've been here for years. Go read something like the "armchair diapering" meta if you really don't think its the case. It's a blind spot worth discussing and one that can be hilarious to me when it isn't sad.
I wished for a nice pair of red wings for years. I only got them because I got several gift cards from family. $320 is a lot of money to me, but it really is meh to a lot of people on here and that's been the case since the site was forged.
posted by emptythought at 1:03 AM on April 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
To be fair 9/10ths of the people on here seem to make more than me, and if I had to non-snarkily guess I'd say the median has to be way north of 60k.
I've been here for years. Go read something like the "armchair diapering" meta if you really don't think its the case. It's a blind spot worth discussing and one that can be hilarious to me when it isn't sad.
I wished for a nice pair of red wings for years. I only got them because I got several gift cards from family. $320 is a lot of money to me, but it really is meh to a lot of people on here and that's been the case since the site was forged.
posted by emptythought at 1:03 AM on April 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
Vegetarian Shoes in the UK are fricking awesome. Just got some new shoes for my birthday and they were made in Portugal in an ethical, unionised factory. Cost me about £80 including delivery. I can't recommend them enough and they have a range of styles that should appeal to many. The last pair lasted two years of being my sole (pun intended) shoes.
posted by longbaugh at 4:47 AM on April 4, 2015
posted by longbaugh at 4:47 AM on April 4, 2015
(£80 is my shoe budget for about 12-18 months incidentally).
posted by longbaugh at 4:49 AM on April 4, 2015
posted by longbaugh at 4:49 AM on April 4, 2015
mind blown....who are these people? 500 bucks is my clothes budget for 8 months or more...
Evidently, I am lower on the totem pole than you. I can't even imagine spending so much money on clothes.
My mind was blown that the only American-made shoe for adults priced at less than $100 from the manufacturers in your list are flip-flops. Everything on it looked conservatively styled and expensive, like these items are made for wealthy American seniors.
I've never paid $100 for any single item of clothing, and AFAIK I only have a couple of acquaintances who wear anything that steep. So I felt like your list was pretty good evidence for why it isn't done more often.
posted by heatvision at 5:05 AM on April 4, 2015
Evidently, I am lower on the totem pole than you. I can't even imagine spending so much money on clothes.
My mind was blown that the only American-made shoe for adults priced at less than $100 from the manufacturers in your list are flip-flops. Everything on it looked conservatively styled and expensive, like these items are made for wealthy American seniors.
I've never paid $100 for any single item of clothing, and AFAIK I only have a couple of acquaintances who wear anything that steep. So I felt like your list was pretty good evidence for why it isn't done more often.
posted by heatvision at 5:05 AM on April 4, 2015
Not to out myself even more as a huge giant nerd, but I just happen to know that if you wanted made in Mexico Goodyear welted reproduction leather WWII boots, you can find them for $135-$175 from some companies. I don't understand very much about women's shoes, but I understand that generally glued construction shoes (such as are shown in the website) are cheaper and easier to make than sewn shoes. I don't want to underestimate the difficulty of having people make shoes for you, and certainly there is a strong boot making culture in parts of Mexico, but it seems like it's possible?
posted by Comrade_robot at 6:22 AM on April 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Comrade_robot at 6:22 AM on April 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Sounds like people are saying just borrow some money and build a factory and train people to do craftsmanship that takes twenty years to learn and pay them a living wage while you train them. I tried doing just that for ten years. It's not as easy as it looks.
posted by alpheus at 6:42 AM on April 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by alpheus at 6:42 AM on April 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
just in case anyone is free this summer and wants to learn 18th century shoemaking techniques, Colonial Williamsburg is looking for paid interns.
Seriously, it sounds like their first or second step could have been to come to a place like Metafilter and find out a whole lot more information about the shoe business (would "Ye Snark" be a good name for a shoe?). There are resources out there about how to do things, and people who want to learn traditional craftsmanship. Look at how successful the whole Medieval/Fantasy reenactment manufacturing business has been. There are people out there happily making small-run production items because they want to put their skills to use and are willing to work at it as a hobby or otherwise lose money until they get established.
posted by sneebler at 7:03 AM on April 4, 2015
Seriously, it sounds like their first or second step could have been to come to a place like Metafilter and find out a whole lot more information about the shoe business (would "Ye Snark" be a good name for a shoe?). There are resources out there about how to do things, and people who want to learn traditional craftsmanship. Look at how successful the whole Medieval/Fantasy reenactment manufacturing business has been. There are people out there happily making small-run production items because they want to put their skills to use and are willing to work at it as a hobby or otherwise lose money until they get established.
posted by sneebler at 7:03 AM on April 4, 2015
Seriously, it sounds like their first or second step could have been to come to a place like Metafilter and find out a whole lot more information about the shoe businessThat's a joke, right? They could get a lot of ignorant snark from people who don't know what they're talking about and don't know that they don't know what they're talking about, but I don't think there's a whole lot of actual expertise here.
There are resources out there about how to do things, and people who want to learn traditional craftsmanship.If you've got $700 to spend on a pair of shoes, there are in fact people out there who will make you beautiful, traditionally-made shoes to wear with your historical costumes. I'm working on my historical costuming post, and I'll link to one of them. Not everyone can afford to spend $700 on an extremely impractical pair of shoes, though, and American Duchess was started to cater to hobby costumers who had a more-modest budget.
posted by ArbitraryAndCapricious at 7:34 AM on April 4, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm not spending $500 on shoes, but I will spend $300, and I while I am making decent money, I'm not making 1% money. $300 isn't for shoes you're buying every six months, it's for shoes you buy every decade.
Plus if you've got a job that requires suit and tie, you're not spending less than $100 without thrifting anyway.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:46 AM on April 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Plus if you've got a job that requires suit and tie, you're not spending less than $100 without thrifting anyway.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:46 AM on April 4, 2015 [2 favorites]
Which isn't to say spending $100 on shoes is no different than $300 or $500, just that if you've got the money available, it's not crazy to spend it up front on better shoes that will last; it's not an extravagance, and speaking from experience it takes good but not crazy income to do that.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:55 AM on April 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:55 AM on April 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
I've owned exactly one pair of shoes that cost >$200 and Christ are those things uncomfortable to the point of being unwearable.
posted by octothorpe at 8:55 AM on April 4, 2015
posted by octothorpe at 8:55 AM on April 4, 2015
I came across the page having recently bought from American Duchess... My shoe budget is about $200 a year, which means one "nice" pair from a place like American Duchess and then whatever I can find at the second-hand store or on a discount rack to fill out the rest of the time. I have owned a couple $200+ pairs of shoes in my life and they did last a long time with occasional repair-work, but unless it was The Greatest Shoe Ever I don't think I could justify that kind of spending on a shoe.
Incidentally, I only dabble a little in costuming -- I mostly like American Duchess shoes because they're not seasonal, so I can get boots all year without having to buy weird Goth platforms.
posted by Peregrine Pickle at 12:03 PM on April 4, 2015
Incidentally, I only dabble a little in costuming -- I mostly like American Duchess shoes because they're not seasonal, so I can get boots all year without having to buy weird Goth platforms.
posted by Peregrine Pickle at 12:03 PM on April 4, 2015
Somewhat tangentially but also related: I've been having trouble finding plastic fish bowls. I use them extensively as part of my fish keeping hobby*. The plastic ones are great because they're easy to handle though they do break down after a few years or weird drops.
Suddenly I couldn't find them anymore. A few small ones, but not in the size I need. The small ones are a different design too (to be honest, better if I could find them in the size I need.) so I start poking around, I use them enough that I could easily order them wholesale and just stockpile unused ones. The company that made them was in New Jersey, but I heard they were bought out some time ago. (I knew I should have bought more then!)
So I began looking at the manufacturer of the smaller replacement bowls. They're white labeled at most aquarium specialty stores, but I got lucky, and found one place that had the original manufacturer sticker on them rather than the new store label.
So I began to dig and dig some more. Only then did I find that the new plastic company that makes them, in spite of being a full manufacturing plant, doesn't even make them; they just source them from China, and the new size is the only size they can get (or are willing to? I suppose). They are a business meant to do this kind of work and they don't anymore, it's just cheaper to go through China.
I'm stumped, because I use these bowls for a number of functions and not having them will have to change nearly everything in the way I raise fish, or I'll have to purpose build a proxy. I have considered trying to have them made (they're niche but popular for this use). But I don't know anything about overseas manufacturing and suspect it would be more expensive than I could do. And it just adds to the problem of jobs heading overseas. I'm going to get in touch with a local plastic company and talk with them about it.
*fish bowls work great for making a simplified kreisel. Kriesels are great for certain marine larvae and plankton.
It's not shoes, but it's a similar problem.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 1:02 PM on April 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Suddenly I couldn't find them anymore. A few small ones, but not in the size I need. The small ones are a different design too (to be honest, better if I could find them in the size I need.) so I start poking around, I use them enough that I could easily order them wholesale and just stockpile unused ones. The company that made them was in New Jersey, but I heard they were bought out some time ago. (I knew I should have bought more then!)
So I began looking at the manufacturer of the smaller replacement bowls. They're white labeled at most aquarium specialty stores, but I got lucky, and found one place that had the original manufacturer sticker on them rather than the new store label.
So I began to dig and dig some more. Only then did I find that the new plastic company that makes them, in spite of being a full manufacturing plant, doesn't even make them; they just source them from China, and the new size is the only size they can get (or are willing to? I suppose). They are a business meant to do this kind of work and they don't anymore, it's just cheaper to go through China.
I'm stumped, because I use these bowls for a number of functions and not having them will have to change nearly everything in the way I raise fish, or I'll have to purpose build a proxy. I have considered trying to have them made (they're niche but popular for this use). But I don't know anything about overseas manufacturing and suspect it would be more expensive than I could do. And it just adds to the problem of jobs heading overseas. I'm going to get in touch with a local plastic company and talk with them about it.
*fish bowls work great for making a simplified kreisel. Kriesels are great for certain marine larvae and plankton.
It's not shoes, but it's a similar problem.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 1:02 PM on April 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
"$500 isn't even high end anymore, my regular office dress shoes cost that much, and they're nothing special other than being very comfortable dress shoes. "
wat
Dude, not high end compared to what? They're at the high end of Allen Edmonds, which I think is a pretty reliable metric for high-quality men's dress shoes. I think your perceptions are well outside of the norm.
"Treating it as a hobby is an affront to a thousand years of cordwaining tradition and to all the heroic cordwainers who have gone before you. "
I can't help but read that in Archer's voice.
posted by klangklangston at 3:12 PM on April 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
wat
Dude, not high end compared to what? They're at the high end of Allen Edmonds, which I think is a pretty reliable metric for high-quality men's dress shoes. I think your perceptions are well outside of the norm.
"Treating it as a hobby is an affront to a thousand years of cordwaining tradition and to all the heroic cordwainers who have gone before you. "
I can't help but read that in Archer's voice.
posted by klangklangston at 3:12 PM on April 4, 2015 [9 favorites]
I own a garment factory in Oregon. There are definitely big challenges, but also huge opportunities. I talk to brands weekly, large and small, who want to move some or all of their production back from Asia. As lead times get longer and prices get higher in China lots of companies are moving to Bangladesh, Vietnam, etc. Forward thinking folks are looking at the US again. There already isn't nearly the capacity to fill the demand for domestic sewing that there is currently. Our factory is growing like crazy, and every other factory I know is booked many months out for production.
This company is probably just too small for anyone to take them seriously for contract work here. There's a lot that goes into tooling for footwear production and if their production runs are even a couple hundred units per style it's just not worth it. We have small companies pretty much begging us to do production for them all the time. I wish we could do it all but it just doesn't pencil out. We have a good mix of production for our own brand, larger volume production, and small runs and it works out ok.
If you're a small brand looking to get stuff made here it can certainly be done, you just have to find someone willing to take a chance on you, not be a pain in the ass to work with, and understand that your prices are going to be a little higher.
posted by alpinist at 3:47 PM on April 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
This company is probably just too small for anyone to take them seriously for contract work here. There's a lot that goes into tooling for footwear production and if their production runs are even a couple hundred units per style it's just not worth it. We have small companies pretty much begging us to do production for them all the time. I wish we could do it all but it just doesn't pencil out. We have a good mix of production for our own brand, larger volume production, and small runs and it works out ok.
If you're a small brand looking to get stuff made here it can certainly be done, you just have to find someone willing to take a chance on you, not be a pain in the ass to work with, and understand that your prices are going to be a little higher.
posted by alpinist at 3:47 PM on April 4, 2015 [15 favorites]
I'm trying really hard not to be furious at the people who are like "You should be willing to pay $500 for shoes or don't bother having hobbies, peasant!" But it's really hard. People are cracking on ladies who have a tiny niche business of love for other ladies to have nice things, or on ladies that just want nice things sometimes, and it's really gross.
You are why we can't have nice things.
posted by corb at 4:25 PM on April 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
You are why we can't have nice things.
posted by corb at 4:25 PM on April 4, 2015 [7 favorites]
I should do an FPP on historical costuming, just to amuse myself.
Please do -- that would amuse me, too! I am a non-starter at any sewing more complicated than replacing a button, but how clothing is made has always interested me.
My Italian great-grandfather was a textile designer; his daughters -- my maternal grandmother and her sister-- were union organizers and garment factory workers; and my mom made a lot of our clothes when we were little. Obviously, I didn't get these genes. But I learned a little about how to recognize well-made garments.
posted by virago at 11:36 AM on April 5, 2015
Please do -- that would amuse me, too! I am a non-starter at any sewing more complicated than replacing a button, but how clothing is made has always interested me.
My Italian great-grandfather was a textile designer; his daughters -- my maternal grandmother and her sister-- were union organizers and garment factory workers; and my mom made a lot of our clothes when we were little. Obviously, I didn't get these genes. But I learned a little about how to recognize well-made garments.
posted by virago at 11:36 AM on April 5, 2015
But being middle class and enjoying a certain hobby does not make everything about that hobby above criticism.
This is a really interesting, tricky point. I'm a triathlete. I have a road bike that cost upwards of $1,000; it is, next to my desktop computer, probably the most expensive thing that I own. There are other bikes out there (I have raced against them) that cost ten times as much. I love this hobby: every event is like a festival, and it's a great, fun personal challenge switching from one leg of a race to another in the middle of a bright beautiful day outside. But there's also a lot of weird, gross (to me) fetishism of the gear we use and a lot of resources poured into race day that could probably have gone to something less frivolous. It's an undeniably privileged world and TIL that my expensive (to me) but inexpensive (compared to many of their competitors) bike was--like many of those competitors!--made in China, because that's where it works to build them.
And these are seriously complicated products built in bulk for high-end consumers; I can't imagine the challenge to a niche producer hoping to build artisanal footwear in the U.S. without much initial capital.
posted by psoas at 1:14 PM on April 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is a really interesting, tricky point. I'm a triathlete. I have a road bike that cost upwards of $1,000; it is, next to my desktop computer, probably the most expensive thing that I own. There are other bikes out there (I have raced against them) that cost ten times as much. I love this hobby: every event is like a festival, and it's a great, fun personal challenge switching from one leg of a race to another in the middle of a bright beautiful day outside. But there's also a lot of weird, gross (to me) fetishism of the gear we use and a lot of resources poured into race day that could probably have gone to something less frivolous. It's an undeniably privileged world and TIL that my expensive (to me) but inexpensive (compared to many of their competitors) bike was--like many of those competitors!--made in China, because that's where it works to build them.
And these are seriously complicated products built in bulk for high-end consumers; I can't imagine the challenge to a niche producer hoping to build artisanal footwear in the U.S. without much initial capital.
posted by psoas at 1:14 PM on April 6, 2015 [2 favorites]
I know people who buy these shoes. They are really into period wear. They drop THOUSANDS on period things. Some of them can afford it and some of them are bankrupting themselves to do it.
People spend money on what they decide is important enough (like the $1000 bike. Wetsuits get up there too, if you get serious about them, though the prices have dropped a lot since I started. Power tools. Kitchen appliances...)
I can see how there might not be enough of that demand to run a factory but there's way more demand than a lot of people in this thread seem to think.
posted by small_ruminant at 3:20 PM on April 7, 2015
People spend money on what they decide is important enough (like the $1000 bike. Wetsuits get up there too, if you get serious about them, though the prices have dropped a lot since I started. Power tools. Kitchen appliances...)
I can see how there might not be enough of that demand to run a factory but there's way more demand than a lot of people in this thread seem to think.
posted by small_ruminant at 3:20 PM on April 7, 2015
American Duchess does historical reenactment shoes for people who make and wear historical costumes. They have fairly specific requirements in terms of historical accuracy, and most people aren't going to pay $500 for shoes they're wearing as part of a costume, not for everyday wear.
Most people aren't reenactors, who WILL happily pay that much for a product that gets it right and often do pay that much and more to have items custom made to their satisfaction.
posted by snottydick at 2:31 PM on April 10, 2015
Most people aren't reenactors, who WILL happily pay that much for a product that gets it right and often do pay that much and more to have items custom made to their satisfaction.
posted by snottydick at 2:31 PM on April 10, 2015
Actually, I finally looked at the shoes on their website, and I think they have just convinced me that they go on my shoe wishlist. I would definitely not spend $500 on re-enactment shoes, but these look really nice.
posted by corb at 3:45 PM on April 10, 2015
posted by corb at 3:45 PM on April 10, 2015
« Older Submitted for your approval | 3D on the rocks Newer »
This thread has been archived and is closed to new comments
I think that second part is a big point – opening up a factory take a capital budget, which means a loan. But what bank is going to front you money to open up a factory in the US, when your competitors are using already running and cheaper factories in China?
posted by zippy at 11:21 AM on April 3, 2015 [3 favorites]