If you are not paying for it et cetera

April 21, 2015 3:44 PM

"Do Not Track is a personalized web series about privacy and the web economy. If you share your data with us, we'll show you what the web knows about you."
posted by no mind (36 comments total)

 The Wall Street Journal discovered that Staples actually alters their online prices for products depending on where the user is accessing the website from. To incentivize target customers, Staples will offer you a better price based on your proximity to the nearest store. "But doesn't that discriminate against people in lower income areas, who don't live near or have access to certain services and amenities?"
.

Wow.
posted by Dashy at 4:08 PM on April 21, 2015

Well, for one thing "the Web" will know all the things I have to give to this site for this service, right?
posted by Chocolate Pickle at 4:21 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

I watched episodes 1 and 3. I'm a 67-year-old geezer. So far, I'm not overly alarmed. I'm willing to share info to get info. But I'll stay tuned. This is quite well-produced.
posted by beagle at 5:14 PM on April 21, 2015

...Staples actually alters their online prices for products depending on where the user is accessing the website from. To incentivize target customers, Staples will offer you a better price based on your proximity to the nearest store.

I wonder what Amazon's rationale is for doing the same sort of monkeying with prices? It's not like they have stores for people to live near. I've gotten different prices for the same item on two different devices on the same home network.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:14 PM on April 21, 2015

...Staples actually alters their online prices for products depending on where the user is accessing the website from.

So did every public marketplace until, oh, the 1950s in the West, and until today, everywhere else. Every hardboiled consumer knows this, and knows that shopping for deals, using and combining coupon offers and discount codes is part of the game. Why, really, is this a problem? It's certainly not something uniquely enabled by the Internet. Ever ask the person in the next seat on an airplane what they paid for a ticket and compare it to your cost? Variable pricing actually makes markets more efficient and more fair for everyone.
posted by beagle at 5:29 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

I've gotten different prices for the same item on two different devices on the same home network.

Were you using different devices? I believe that your OS or device could affect the price.
posted by cell divide at 5:29 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Appears their site doesn't work with the browser extensions active on my metaflter browser : HTTPS Everywhere, uBlock, Privacy Badger, and Vanilla Cookie Manager.

I'd suggest folks try Panopticlick from the EFF too, btw. See also 'How [does one] disable permission to read 'System Fonts' and 'Browser Plugin Details' in Chrome and Firefox?'
posted by jeffburdges at 6:08 PM on April 21, 2015 [16 favorites]

Maybe I'd want them to know that I'm overriding their server-side font in favor of Bullshit Sans.
posted by oneswellfoop at 6:34 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

"If you are not paying for it you're the product"

If this alarms you just try browsing YouTube of all things (ie, the second-most popular search engine after Google) while logged in (so they can track you), with Adblock turned off. How many of the served ads ("Free pardons" etc) are actually relevant? I keep getting a disgusting lipsuction ad as well. Even YT's suggested channels and so on are not very sophisticated.

Same with Amazon. Goodreads (which *ought* to know what I like) is even worse!

The real villain of course is government. They collect the data and are supposed to look for patterns. But with all this information and predictive analytics, how come "they" can never seem to foil terrorist attacks?

Like liposuction ads, their analytics come to the wrong conclusions.
posted by Nevin at 6:37 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

Any idea about the separation between different Chrome users in the People tab? Any idea what Chrome's kiosk mode or apps leak as opposed WhiteList extension? I suppose supervised users are linked to a google account, yes?
posted by jeffburdges at 6:44 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

I wonder what Amazon's rationale is for doing the same sort of monkeying with prices? It's not like they have stores for people to live near. I've gotten different prices for the same item on two different devices on the same home network.

There was a public radio story in February, I think (I'm looking for it, no luck yet), that explained how Amazon monkeys with the price of goods you've been looking at in part to make you nervous and induce a purchase that way. "It went up six cents! Will it go up again?! Will it go down!? I wanna buy this anyway so this is a good enough reason!!" The story also talked about how Target and Amazon in particular have been pricing goods at 'off' amounts (e.g., $2.42 instead of $2.49) because shoppers perceive that to be more intentional than the standard .49 or .99, and so it fosters trust? Something like that.

I'm interested in checking this out more. Right now I really don't care too much about my privacy online, I just assume everyone's tracking what I do. Sometimes I'll text or email a funny joke and think, "damn! hope my NSA guy appreciated that. I am ON today!" Like beagle, I subscribe to the "giving info to get info" model of interneting. I actually do like targeted ads, though I always go to a site directly and never click on the link. It annoys me that I will get ads for the thing I JUST looked at, but I like that Facebook thinks I'm Jewish and potty training. I always opt to let my software/electronics providers collect anonymous (but I totally don't think it is) info and crash data. Again, this isn't pollyanna naiveté about yay let's share everything, it's that I assume everyone knows everything anyway and I only have so much time to devote to worrying and this is low priority.
posted by good lorneing at 7:15 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Nevin:

But with all this information and predictive analytics, how come "they" can never seem to foil terrorist attacks?

That's like asking, with all the safety features you're forced to pay for on your car, and the incredible expense of traffic lights, how come people keep having traffic accidents?

Also - advertisers have become aware that people get "creeped out" by ads that are too obviously targeted, so who knows whether some computer somewhere really thinks you're interested in liposuction?
posted by amtho at 7:31 PM on April 21, 2015

There was a public radio story in February, I think (I'm looking for it, no luck yet), that explained how Amazon monkeys with the price of goods you've been looking at in part to make you nervous and induce a purchase that way. "It went up six cents! Will it go up again?! Will it go down!? I wanna buy this anyway so this is a good enough reason!!"

One thing I learned the hard way is that when Amazon says "Only XX left at this price," where XX is less than, say, 12, a) it's bullshit, and b) it works.

I was contemplating buying a new DSLR, so I was browsing on Amazon. I came to a listing of one that was highly rated, and it was a kit that included a couple of decent lenses, etc. I would have passed over it for a just a camera body at a much lower price, except that the kit price was damn good, and right next to the price, in red, it said "ONLY 2 LEFT AT THIS PRICE."

So I fell for it, and bought the camera. It was a really good price and I have been very happy with the camera. But, I would not have spent that much money if I hadn't felt like I'd be losing something by NOT buying the camera. I felt like if I didn't hurry, and if I wasn't one of the next two people to click the button, I'd be missing out.

Anyway, within ten minutes of buying it, I went back to the listing for that camera to get info about one thing or another. Next to the price, in red, it said "ONLY 11 LEFT AT THIS PRICE."

They didn't technically lie. When I bought the camera, the order was being fulfilled by Vendor ABC, who probably only had 2 left in stock. Ten minutes later, the order was being fulfilled by vendor XYZ, who probably only had 11 left in stock.

Again, I'm happy with the camera, but I think I totally got psychologized into that purchase.
posted by mudpuppie at 7:39 PM on April 21, 2015 [8 favorites]

But with all this information and predictive analytics, how come "they" can never seem to foil terrorist attacks?

That's like asking, with all the safety features you're forced to pay for on your car, and the incredible expense of traffic lights, how come people keep having traffic accidents?

I'm not sure it's like that at all. I don't have a better analogy offhand, but I really don't see the logic of that one.
posted by Greg_Ace at 7:51 PM on April 21, 2015

I actually do like targeted ads, though I always go to a site directly and never click on the link. It annoys me that I will get ads for the thing I JUST looked at, but I like that Facebook thinks I'm Jewish and potty training.

I think if they're tracking your web activity, it doesn't really matter too much whether or not you get to the site via banner ad or by typing it into your browser. The point is that they got you there, and they know it; the banner ad just gives ad revenue to a third party.

What I want to know is how these ads are targeted in the first place. Do companies bid against each other to be targeted at certain demographic profiles? If I'm getting targeted ads for GoDaddy, does that mean my browsing habits generally look like those of someone building a website, or did GoDaddy (or whoever) just pay more to cast a wider net? I'm not sure how to even phrase this question, to be honest.

----

As a weird aside, Facebook recently decided that it would only send me recommendations for Hong Kong action movies from the 70s. This was the moment that I gave in and embraced targeted advertising wholeheartedly. Why yes, I do like Jimmy Wang Yu.
posted by teponaztli at 7:55 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

I wonder what Amazon's rationale is for doing the same sort of monkeying with prices? It's not like they have stores for people to live near. I've gotten different prices for the same item on two different devices on the same home network.

I've heard that Amazon is doing this to determine which prices will maximize their profit.

There's a standard problem in high school algebra where you know that if you charge X dollars for your product costing Y dollars, Z people will buy it; find the value for X that maximizes your profit. Amazon surely wants to do that, but it can't without knowing the relationship between how many people will buy something and how much it costs. It can't do that while showing the same price to everyone all the time.
posted by a snickering nuthatch at 8:01 PM on April 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

The point is that they got you there, and they know it; the banner ad just gives ad revenue to a third party.

Yup. I know people know where I'm going and what I'm looking at but I don't want to give money to those shitbox banner ad companies. Their commitment to creating a terrible web experience is akin to a barista poking 40 holes in a cup before pouring your coffee.

To that end, I cannot for the life of me figure out why the "one weird trick!" ads, ads that automatically play music, and the splash page ads work - who clicks on them and actually follows through on a purchase? The best explanation I have is that sites sell to these advertisers because the price is right; I see them almost exclusively on newspapers' websites (fewer paper subscriptions/pay walls/hard up for cash). But still: who to they target? How are they effective? What on earth justifies their existence?
posted by good lorneing at 8:07 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

I wonder what Amazon's rationale is for doing the same sort of monkeying with prices? It's not like they have stores for people to live near.

Go to Amazon, search for a specific thing. Spend some time on the page of that specific thing. Leave the page without buying it, or putting it in your cart. Come back the next day and search for that thing again, and note that the price has dropped significantly. I don't know if this happens for other people. It's just anecdata, but this has happened to me more than once. Price drops between 10 and 20%.
posted by nushustu at 8:07 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

My favorite Amazon dumb marketing trick was the time that I was looking at a blu-ray player on Amazon and it said that the one I was looking at and two other, different blu-ray players were "frequently bought together". I'm pretty sure those things have never been bought together. Why the hell would anyone want three different models of blu-ray players from three different manufacturers?

good lorneing: "To that end, I cannot for the life of me figure out why the "one weird trick!" ads..."

How will you ever find out what the weird trick is if you don't click on it?!

nushustu: "Go to Amazon, search for a specific thing. Spend some time on the page of that specific thing. Leave the page without buying it, or putting it in your cart. Come back the next day and search for that thing again, and note that the price has dropped significantly. I don't know if this happens for other people. It's just anecdata, but this has happened to me more than once. Price drops between 10 and 20%."

I got my Chomecast for $24 from Amazon not too long after it was introduced. It might be because I looked at it every day for about 9 days in a row. It was $35 the first time I looked at it, but the price bounced around a lot from day to day. It went from $35 to $30 to $28 to $35 again to $27 and so on. It sort of became a game. I bought it when I didn't think it would go any lower.
posted by double block and bleed at 8:23 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

I wonder what kind deal I could get if I went a car dealership and looked at the same car every day for a week, leaving without saying a word the first six times?
posted by double block and bleed at 8:26 PM on April 21, 2015 [2 favorites]

I was significantly more concerned about Facebook's data mining before they spent several months sending me curated ads for a dating site for black professionals.

I am not black, and my commitment to professionalism is questionable at best.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 8:57 PM on April 21, 2015 [8 favorites]

I wonder what kind deal I could get if I went a car dealership and looked at the same car every day for a week, leaving without saying a word the first six times?

A special deal for a tool kit or a repainting?
posted by Ashenmote at 10:03 PM on April 21, 2015

If Amazon is randomly jiggering prices around based on individual users' personal histories, how do things like Keepa work? Plus, people are saying "If you don't buy a product, they'll boost the price by a few cents to get you nervous about price hikes and make you buy it" while others are saying "If you don't buy a product, they'll lower the price to get you to buy it".

Just sounds like apophenia to me.
posted by Bugbread at 10:38 PM on April 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

good lorneing -

I read somewhere that those ads look like that because, as the saying goes, 'nobody in their right mind' would click on them. They're selling products that the media-savvy won't buy, and they filter out the media-savvy with that style of advertising.
posted by jpziller at 10:38 PM on April 21, 2015

I can't find it right now, but there's a great article about the guy who started all those "one weird trick!" companies. The short of it is that he made millions before everything collapsed, because how could it not? It's actually a really interesting story.
posted by teponaztli at 11:10 PM on April 21, 2015

I wonder what kind deal I could get if I went a car dealership and looked at the same car every day for a week, leaving without saying a word the first six times?--double block and bleed

No deal at all. A book by a used car dealer (unfortunately I don't remember the title) said that what they look for is a interest in a car. If you look really interested in one car, they won't negotiate much. If you go in, uninterested, not sure what car you want (at least what you tell them), then leave to look elsewhere, then come back again, ask them about a couple of cars, leave if they say there's a special price today only, then come back and look around again, there's a good chance you'll get a good deal (at least according to this book).

I do the same thing with Amazon, and shop elsewhere if I detect shenanigans. I wonder if their algorithm has detected how many times they've lost a sale to me with their fluctuating prices and 'only 1 left'? One year I canceled Amazon Prime and bought almost nothing from their site. Of course, the fact that I'm back means that maybe their algorithms are now smarter than I am. They do just enough to irritate me then step back.
posted by eye of newt at 12:24 AM on April 22, 2015

Disclaimer: I sell stuff on Amazon as a hobby.

1. If you're a Prime member, and probably if you're not, Amazon adjusts its price based on which warehouse will fulfill your order and what it will cost to ship to you from that location. When vendors send in their goods, Amazon directs the stuff to specific warehouses, often at minute levels of specificity--one item here and one identical item there--to manage inventory volume, unless you pay them to avoid this hassle/cost. Sellers can deem their goods "comingled," which means that orders for identical items can be fulfilled from whichever warehouse is the most efficient choice regardless of who sent it in or if its an Amazon sale; some stuff, like groceries, must be labeled with a seller identifier for obvious reasons. Amazon manipulates the listings--by changing which listing shows in the "buy box," so that you don't buy from a seller whose stuff is sitting in a warehouse across the country.

2. The sellers use an array of tactics to set prices; there are numerous ways to automate it and for vendors to manipulate how other vendors price their stuff. For example, if a seller's automatic re-pricing software hasn't been set to uphold a minimum price, another one will wake up in the middle of the night when no one's shopping, set his/her price to $0.02, wait for the vendor's software to match the price, buy all of it (to resell on Amazon, natch), and raise the price back up to the norm. As sellers get more sophisticated, this happens less often, but the price volatility among sellers remains. Amazon reprices in response to its sellers too.
posted by carmicha at 5:38 AM on April 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

I tried for a long time to hide my pregnancy-related searches online, I avoided a registry until my family complained, and held off on amazon purchase etc. but at the same time I didn't want to end up feeling like a criminal like this woman who managed to completely obscure her reproductive status online but had to go to extensive lengths to do so.

It took 5-6 months for the diaper flyers to show up in my snailmailbox (I blame the amazon toy turtle purchase but it was soooo cute).

I'm a little annoyed, my privacy has been inva-what? $10 off diapers? Awesome!
posted by St. Peepsburg at 8:20 AM on April 22, 2015

Why, really, is this a problem?

Redlining was in fact deemed a large enough problem that the Fair Housing Act of 1968 was passed to combat it. It continues today, as Staples demonstrates here.

Reverse redlining occurs when a lender or insurer particularly targets minority consumers, not to deny them loans or insurance, but to charge them more than would be charged to a similarly situated majority consumer, specifically marketing the most expensive and onerous loan products.

Retail redlining is a spatially discriminatory practice among retailers.
posted by Dashy at 9:20 AM on April 22, 2015

Just create multiple "People" in Chrome or "Profiles" in FireFox that correspond to different tasks rather than different actual people. Chrome makes switching people easy, but FireFox requires an extension to switch profiles without restarting, but maybe you'd rather restart anyways.

Ain't so easy to create them on the fly since you must reinstall HTTPS Everywhere, ad blockers, etc. It's workable though if you use categories like "Search", "Maps" "Work", "Purchases", "News", "Travel", "Social", "Facebook", "Metafilter", "Hobbies", "Career", "Pregnancy", etc.

You'll want "annoyance ware" that forces you into using the correct person/profile. At minimum, you should install & configure Vanilla Cookie Manager extension in each Chrome person, so that (a) if you accidentally log into Facebook from the Work person then the Work person deletes all the Facebook cookies, etc., and (b) the Facebook person cannot remember cookies from sites besides Facebook. Also configure the Facebook person to launch Facebook immediately.

Just consider people in Chrome or profiles in FireFox to be "super bookmarks" used to enforce separation between different aspect of your life. And help distractions like Facebook and Metafilter at bay. Also make your browser as non-unique as possible too.

Caveat : We're only defeating relatively honest advertisers here, not anyone who'd install malware, like actual criminals or police. If you're organizing a protest then consider using a more secure system like the Tor Browser Bundle or Tails. If you're an investigative reporter, or organize protests often, then don't just consider them, use them.
posted by jeffburdges at 9:44 AM on April 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Ignoring all that complexity, you should install Vanilla Cookie Manager or similar, along with HTTPS Everywhere, Privacy Badger, and AdBlock/uBlock/etc. And disable autoloading of plugins. It's way nicer on the web if cookies, site data, etc. evaporate after 30 min.
posted by jeffburdges at 1:44 PM on April 22, 2015

On the linked site, my Ghostery plugin blocked trackers from Google Analytics and AT Internet.

(Ghostery is the jam. If the stuff covered by this documentary makes you uncomfortable, you should definitely consider installing it.)
posted by escape from the potato planet at 4:26 PM on April 22, 2015

Anyone seen/know the taxonomy of which ad blockers take money? AdBlock+ whitelists advertisers who pay them, while supposedly AdBlock does not. Ghostery is not quite so bought as AdBlock+, but they take advertiser money somehow. I donno much about uBlock and uBlock Origin.

You should definitely install the EFF extensions HTTPS Everywhere and Privacy Badger, although they're by far the most likely to break sites because they do not use specific blocklists.
posted by jeffburdges at 4:33 PM on April 23, 2015

Your Porn Is Watching You as Online Porn Could Be The Next Big Privacy Scandal
posted by the man of twists and turns at 7:27 AM on April 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

Looking up symptoms online? These companies are tracking you.
(So use Tor when searching for medical questions)
posted by jeffburdges at 9:16 AM on April 26, 2015

(So use Tor when searching for medical questions)

I really should make that post about Tor......
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:01 PM on April 26, 2015