Organic Farmers Object to Whole Foods Rating System
June 12, 2015 7:21 AM Subscribe
Now, some organic farmers contend that Whole Foods is quietly using its formidable marketing skills and its credibility with consumers to convey that conventionally grown produce is just as good — or even better — than their organically grown products. Shoppers can choose from fruits and vegetables carrying the designation of “good,” “better” or “best.”
The very idea that organic farming independent of all other variables is always better than conventional farming is not only ridiculous, but just goes to show the extent to which "organic" is primarily a marketing term.
Back in ye olden tymes when "organic" was virtually synonymous with "small," there was a good chance that you were getting a better product and a reasonably good chance that the farming methods were more environmentally conscientious (although, of course, some organic antifungals, pesticides and farming methods are actually far worse than their conventional counterparts). Now that organic megafarms have become a reality, "organic" is about as meaningful as "free range" -- which is to say, not particularly. If you want to get higher quality foodstuffs and feel righteous about the environment, just buy from small producers and don't pay too much attention to whether they are "organic" or not.
posted by slkinsey at 7:37 AM on June 12, 2015 [19 favorites]
Back in ye olden tymes when "organic" was virtually synonymous with "small," there was a good chance that you were getting a better product and a reasonably good chance that the farming methods were more environmentally conscientious (although, of course, some organic antifungals, pesticides and farming methods are actually far worse than their conventional counterparts). Now that organic megafarms have become a reality, "organic" is about as meaningful as "free range" -- which is to say, not particularly. If you want to get higher quality foodstuffs and feel righteous about the environment, just buy from small producers and don't pay too much attention to whether they are "organic" or not.
posted by slkinsey at 7:37 AM on June 12, 2015 [19 favorites]
Organic had connotations of quality - freshness, flavor and nutritive content - back when it was mostly done by small-scale farmers. These farmers would use heritage breeds and labor-intensive techniques to maximize quality over yield. You can't generally buy that at the Whole Foods anymore, as the Farmer's Market and local restaurant wholesalers pay more, and Organic Megafarms (most of which reeeeeeally stretch the definition of organic) are selling expensive, ordinary produce which supermarkets can put a real nice margin on.
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:43 AM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Slap*Happy at 7:43 AM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
I couldn't have said it better than Tom_Howard in the article comments:
Instead of pouring all this money into creating a shell game about the origin of its produce, Whole Foods would be far better off paying its workers a living wage with health insurance and paid leave.
posted by underflow at 7:45 AM on June 12, 2015 [20 favorites]
Instead of pouring all this money into creating a shell game about the origin of its produce, Whole Foods would be far better off paying its workers a living wage with health insurance and paid leave.
posted by underflow at 7:45 AM on June 12, 2015 [20 favorites]
Not weighing in here on the "organic" vs. "conventional" debate. Just taking a cue from Durst, the organic farmer whose crops did not get the "organic" rating because, he speculates, of paperwork inefficiencies.
A friend of mine used to take his VW bus down to Chiapas a couple of times a year and load it up with coffee grown by the Zapatistas (he did spend a little time in a Mexican jail for his audacity). However, the coffee did not bear the "Fair Trade" label, even though it was the fairest of the fair, because he didn't want to spend time and money to get the official stamp.
posted by kozad at 7:48 AM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
A friend of mine used to take his VW bus down to Chiapas a couple of times a year and load it up with coffee grown by the Zapatistas (he did spend a little time in a Mexican jail for his audacity). However, the coffee did not bear the "Fair Trade" label, even though it was the fairest of the fair, because he didn't want to spend time and money to get the official stamp.
posted by kozad at 7:48 AM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
Instead of pouring all this money into creating a shell game about the origin of its produce, Whole Foods would be far better off paying its workers a living wage with health insurance and paid leave.
This shell game is the only reason people shop at Whole Foods.
posted by sideshow at 7:49 AM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
This shell game is the only reason people shop at Whole Foods.
posted by sideshow at 7:49 AM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
An "organic" tomato is still going to be picked before it is ripened for shipping reasons and it will still taste like wet cardboard just like the tomato next to it.
posted by sourwookie at 7:52 AM on June 12, 2015
posted by sourwookie at 7:52 AM on June 12, 2015
Eh? I shop at Whole Foods occasionally because it offers a better selection of produce, fresher seafood, and some higher quality items (bread, for one) than my other local grocery store. I can't imagine I'm alone.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:52 AM on June 12, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 7:52 AM on June 12, 2015 [13 favorites]
This shell game is the only reason people shop at Whole Foods.
how do you know why I shop at Whole Foods?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 7:56 AM on June 12, 2015 [10 favorites]
Instead of pouring all this money into creating a shell game about the origin of its produce, Whole Foods would be far better off paying its workers a living wage with health insurance and paid leave.
I'm not going to say Whole Foods is the greatest company to work for, but I have a few friends that work at the local one and they actually get pretty good benefits.
In addition to an "alright" health insurance plan, they get a health savings account that the company contributes to. They always talk about having to find stuff to spend it on at the end of the year, it's literally just free money to them.
Their hourly wages aren't great, but I would say better than average for the level of work they are doing. (Not that I agree with the market average, but it's still better than it.)
They also accrue PTO based on time worked, which never expires. Which also isn't great, but it's at least something, and better than most places.
posted by mayonnaises at 8:00 AM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm not going to say Whole Foods is the greatest company to work for, but I have a few friends that work at the local one and they actually get pretty good benefits.
In addition to an "alright" health insurance plan, they get a health savings account that the company contributes to. They always talk about having to find stuff to spend it on at the end of the year, it's literally just free money to them.
Their hourly wages aren't great, but I would say better than average for the level of work they are doing. (Not that I agree with the market average, but it's still better than it.)
They also accrue PTO based on time worked, which never expires. Which also isn't great, but it's at least something, and better than most places.
posted by mayonnaises at 8:00 AM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
I look forward to GMO labeling so that I can selectively buy the genetically optimized produce.
posted by maryr at 8:04 AM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by maryr at 8:04 AM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
This shell game is the only reason people shop at Whole Foods.
I shop at Whole Foods because I like to. Because it has a good selection of fresh foods and an excellent bakery and their pizza is good.
I also own several Apple products because they get good battery life and the screens are nice, but by all means, please pass judgement on me there as well.
posted by Jacks Dented Yugo at 8:09 AM on June 12, 2015 [11 favorites]
I shop at Whole Foods because I like to. Because it has a good selection of fresh foods and an excellent bakery and their pizza is good.
I also own several Apple products because they get good battery life and the screens are nice, but by all means, please pass judgement on me there as well.
posted by Jacks Dented Yugo at 8:09 AM on June 12, 2015 [11 favorites]
The Yugo is not a very good car.
posted by maryr at 8:10 AM on June 12, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by maryr at 8:10 AM on June 12, 2015 [10 favorites]
The whole backlash against organic labeling baffles me.
Organically grown produce may be no better for consumption than conventionally grown. Fine.
But organically grown produce is better for the environment and is more sustainable than conventionally grown produce because produce that qualifies for the USDA organic label does not, among other things, use petroleum-derived pesticides.
Even more befuddling to me is the intensity with which people insist that the USDA organic label conveys no information so should not be provided.
I strongly disagree and, at the very worst the USDA organic label, which indicates a particular method of cultivation, is neutral. At the very best, the USDA organic label may help consumers promote the long-term prospects of US agriculture.
posted by mistersquid at 8:11 AM on June 12, 2015 [25 favorites]
Organically grown produce may be no better for consumption than conventionally grown. Fine.
But organically grown produce is better for the environment and is more sustainable than conventionally grown produce because produce that qualifies for the USDA organic label does not, among other things, use petroleum-derived pesticides.
Even more befuddling to me is the intensity with which people insist that the USDA organic label conveys no information so should not be provided.
I strongly disagree and, at the very worst the USDA organic label, which indicates a particular method of cultivation, is neutral. At the very best, the USDA organic label may help consumers promote the long-term prospects of US agriculture.
posted by mistersquid at 8:11 AM on June 12, 2015 [25 favorites]
I've always dreamed of opening a market where all the foods were put through the Ames Test.
Since plants produce their own natural toxins, mutagens, and carcinogens in response to being attacked by pests and disease, it would be informative to have organic and traditional produce placed side-by-side, and ranked based on how much measurable harm they do to living things.
posted by prosopagnosia at 8:11 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Since plants produce their own natural toxins, mutagens, and carcinogens in response to being attacked by pests and disease, it would be informative to have organic and traditional produce placed side-by-side, and ranked based on how much measurable harm they do to living things.
posted by prosopagnosia at 8:11 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
This shell game is the only reason people shop at Whole Foods.
Well, there's that. But it's also within walking distance.
posted by borges at 8:16 AM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
Well, there's that. But it's also within walking distance.
posted by borges at 8:16 AM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
Not weighing in here on the "organic" vs. "conventional" debate. Just taking a cue from Durst, the organic farmer whose crops did not get the "organic" rating because, he speculates, of paperwork inefficiencies.
kozad
Limp Bizkit has hit hard times indeed.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:17 AM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
kozad
Limp Bizkit has hit hard times indeed.
posted by Sangermaine at 8:17 AM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
Conventional growers can receive higher rankings than organic farmers by doing things like establishing a garbage recycling program, relying more on alternative energy sources, eliminating some pesticides and setting aside a portion of fields as a conservation area.Now I'm not a farmer or anything, and recycling programs, alternative energy sources and conservation areas are good things to have but I don't think they have much to do with food quality. It seems to me WF is just trying to expand the ways in which they can charge a premium for the products they sell, on top of the organic label. Pretty clever way of increasing their own margins at the expense of the farmers'.
posted by Poldo at 8:18 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, the anti-organic backlash is just as much a case of jumping on the bandwagon now as organics ever has been. Do you want to publicly signal your healthiness and commitment to the environment, or do you want to publicly signal your commitment to science and a hard-headed attitude to life? Take your pick!
There are completely legitimate reasons to want to choose organic (and indeed GMO-free) foods – and this claim is entirely compatible with the absence of evidence that either of these are generally healthier for the person consuming them. So there's at least an argument to be made that introducing confusion into the established labeling systems is a bad thing.
posted by oliverburkeman at 8:18 AM on June 12, 2015 [10 favorites]
There are completely legitimate reasons to want to choose organic (and indeed GMO-free) foods – and this claim is entirely compatible with the absence of evidence that either of these are generally healthier for the person consuming them. So there's at least an argument to be made that introducing confusion into the established labeling systems is a bad thing.
posted by oliverburkeman at 8:18 AM on June 12, 2015 [10 favorites]
"Now, some organic farmers contend that Whole Foods is quietly using its formidable marketing skills and its credibility with consumers to convey that conventionally grown produce is just as good — or even better — than their organically grown products."
Formidable marketing skills? Will they rebrand themselves as "Whole Foods and not so Whole Foods" or will people now just think of them that way?
posted by three blind mice at 8:20 AM on June 12, 2015
Formidable marketing skills? Will they rebrand themselves as "Whole Foods and not so Whole Foods" or will people now just think of them that way?
posted by three blind mice at 8:20 AM on June 12, 2015
Whole foods is just the worst.
And I will suggest that your conventional produce is going to have more pesticide/herbicide residues than my organically grown produce. Avoiding that, and the impact to the environment seems like a good deal.
posted by Windopaene at 8:23 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
And I will suggest that your conventional produce is going to have more pesticide/herbicide residues than my organically grown produce. Avoiding that, and the impact to the environment seems like a good deal.
posted by Windopaene at 8:23 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Instead of pouring all this money into creating a shell game about the origin of its produce, Whole Foods would be far better off paying its workers a living wage with health insurance and paid leave.
And uh, aren't Whole Foods workers better paid than nearly every other grocery store?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:26 AM on June 12, 2015
And uh, aren't Whole Foods workers better paid than nearly every other grocery store?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:26 AM on June 12, 2015
This shell game is the only reason people shop at Whole Foods.
I'm preeeeeetty sure the only reason people shop at Whole Foods is the lack of a reasonably close Wegmans.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:27 AM on June 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
I'm preeeeeetty sure the only reason people shop at Whole Foods is the lack of a reasonably close Wegmans.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:27 AM on June 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
There are completely legitimate reasons to want to choose organic (and indeed GMO-free) foods – and this claim is entirely compatible with the absence of evidence that either of these are generally healthier for the person consuming them. So there's at least an argument to be made that introducing confusion into the established labeling systems is a bad thing.
Without wading too much into the values debate or into Whole Foods actually goals with this, I think there's also an argument for more information. As the article points out, you can improve your rating a number of ways, ways that a Whole Foods buyer may value. Therefore, having the knowledge that a farmer is, say, using solar panels, may be the information a buyer wants. Because, like you say, there are many reasons to choose a certain type of food.
My objection -- and frankly it's my objection to any non-government labeling system -- is lack of transparency. With an organic label you are confident what the standards are because those standards are public (even if you might not agree with them). A private labeling system (like Rain Forest Alliance, Fair Trade or Whole Foods scoring) is at best vague and does not give you the information you need to make a decision based on your values.
posted by Jacks Dented Yugo at 8:28 AM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
Without wading too much into the values debate or into Whole Foods actually goals with this, I think there's also an argument for more information. As the article points out, you can improve your rating a number of ways, ways that a Whole Foods buyer may value. Therefore, having the knowledge that a farmer is, say, using solar panels, may be the information a buyer wants. Because, like you say, there are many reasons to choose a certain type of food.
My objection -- and frankly it's my objection to any non-government labeling system -- is lack of transparency. With an organic label you are confident what the standards are because those standards are public (even if you might not agree with them). A private labeling system (like Rain Forest Alliance, Fair Trade or Whole Foods scoring) is at best vague and does not give you the information you need to make a decision based on your values.
posted by Jacks Dented Yugo at 8:28 AM on June 12, 2015 [7 favorites]
People who get on their high horse about Whole Foods being this horrible blight on food markets really need to go visit parts of the country where there are no food markets even close to their level of quality. Get out of your hipster bubble.
I also own several Apple products because they get good battery life and the screens are nice, but by all means, please pass judgement on me there as well.
You probably use Facebook too, YOU BASTARD.
There are completely legitimate reasons to want to choose organic (and indeed GMO-free) foods
I'm not really sure there is a legitimate reason to avoid foods with GMO ingredients. It's almost entirely a political stance, usually taken against companies who aren't the bad actors in that theater.
posted by mkultra at 8:33 AM on June 12, 2015 [13 favorites]
I also own several Apple products because they get good battery life and the screens are nice, but by all means, please pass judgement on me there as well.
You probably use Facebook too, YOU BASTARD.
There are completely legitimate reasons to want to choose organic (and indeed GMO-free) foods
I'm not really sure there is a legitimate reason to avoid foods with GMO ingredients. It's almost entirely a political stance, usually taken against companies who aren't the bad actors in that theater.
posted by mkultra at 8:33 AM on June 12, 2015 [13 favorites]
I've always dreamed of opening a market where all the foods were put through the Ames Test.
Ames was only looking at human health effects. It's a useful concept for talking about food safety, but that's not the only reason wee need to worry about pesitcide use. Ecological concerns have to be equally balanced in my view.
For example, in Ontario, we're currently in the middle of a fairly heated debate over the use of neonicatinoids (neonics) for insect control. They're a systemic poison absorbed by the plant and so offer long-lasting protection for a crop. They don't have a great deal of toxicity to humans, so they seem like an ideal pesticide, right?
Their persistence could well be a real problem for pollinators. Their use has been suspected as one of the contributors to bee deaths and colony collapse. Ontario is just about to start a ban on their use, trying to knock down neonic levels by 80%. Bans are already in place in much of the EU. The science is far from settled, and many farmers are really pissed about the change, because the bans may mean reverting to older, more toxic (and less specific) chemicals.
The Ames test is one thing to consider, but it's not enough. I'm not always happy with the way the "organic" label fits with sustainability either. I don't think we really have a good, balanced set of food production and farming standards to talk about this, even after, what 40 years on?
posted by bonehead at 8:34 AM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
Ames was only looking at human health effects. It's a useful concept for talking about food safety, but that's not the only reason wee need to worry about pesitcide use. Ecological concerns have to be equally balanced in my view.
For example, in Ontario, we're currently in the middle of a fairly heated debate over the use of neonicatinoids (neonics) for insect control. They're a systemic poison absorbed by the plant and so offer long-lasting protection for a crop. They don't have a great deal of toxicity to humans, so they seem like an ideal pesticide, right?
Their persistence could well be a real problem for pollinators. Their use has been suspected as one of the contributors to bee deaths and colony collapse. Ontario is just about to start a ban on their use, trying to knock down neonic levels by 80%. Bans are already in place in much of the EU. The science is far from settled, and many farmers are really pissed about the change, because the bans may mean reverting to older, more toxic (and less specific) chemicals.
The Ames test is one thing to consider, but it's not enough. I'm not always happy with the way the "organic" label fits with sustainability either. I don't think we really have a good, balanced set of food production and farming standards to talk about this, even after, what 40 years on?
posted by bonehead at 8:34 AM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
If people dont get their high quality proteins and produce from Whole Foods, where else do you get it?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:36 AM on June 12, 2015
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:36 AM on June 12, 2015
If people dont get their high quality proteins and produce from Whole Foods, where else do you get it?
Local farmers markets.
posted by Sir Rinse at 8:40 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Local farmers markets.
posted by Sir Rinse at 8:40 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
This shell game is the only reason people shop at Whole Foods.
I'm preeeeeetty sure the only reason people shop at Whole Foods is the lack of a reasonably close Wegmans.
Or DLM. Why Whole Foods even bothered to open a store in Dayton boggles my mind - it's not convenient to get to for most of the city, and it's not in a particularly affluent area (I'm assuming that's their target demographic). Doomed!
And getting back to the article - "good, better, best" is pretty damn patronizing as a shopper. I have some pretty basic interest in where/how produce was grown at the grocery store: is it local or not, and is it organic or not - but far more important is the state the produce is in (I could care less if the avacados are organic or not if they're rock hard or nearly rotten). Ugh.
posted by combinatorial explosion at 8:41 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'm preeeeeetty sure the only reason people shop at Whole Foods is the lack of a reasonably close Wegmans.
Or DLM. Why Whole Foods even bothered to open a store in Dayton boggles my mind - it's not convenient to get to for most of the city, and it's not in a particularly affluent area (I'm assuming that's their target demographic). Doomed!
And getting back to the article - "good, better, best" is pretty damn patronizing as a shopper. I have some pretty basic interest in where/how produce was grown at the grocery store: is it local or not, and is it organic or not - but far more important is the state the produce is in (I could care less if the avacados are organic or not if they're rock hard or nearly rotten). Ugh.
posted by combinatorial explosion at 8:41 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'd like to see a counter program from, say, Piggly Wiggly or Winn-Dixie that rates suppliers by their family life, church activity participation and just generally how well they keep God's laws.
posted by George_Spiggott at 8:46 AM on June 12, 2015 [9 favorites]
posted by George_Spiggott at 8:46 AM on June 12, 2015 [9 favorites]
Local farmers markets.
Which happen once a week from May to November. What about when they aren't available. Are all you smug people only buying food once a week?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:48 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Which happen once a week from May to November. What about when they aren't available. Are all you smug people only buying food once a week?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:48 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
And uh, aren't Whole Foods workers better paid than nearly every other grocery store?
Seeing as mentioning the word "union" gives founder Mackey panic attacks... no, they're not.
posted by underflow at 8:53 AM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
Seeing as mentioning the word "union" gives founder Mackey panic attacks... no, they're not.
posted by underflow at 8:53 AM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
If people dont get their high quality proteins and produce from Whole Foods, where else do you get it?
Fresh Market is pretty good too if you have one.
posted by synthetik at 8:55 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Fresh Market is pretty good too if you have one.
posted by synthetik at 8:55 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
This shell game is the only reason people shop at Whole Foods.
WF is the only place in town that sells buffalo mozzarella.
posted by box at 8:55 AM on June 12, 2015
WF is the only place in town that sells buffalo mozzarella.
posted by box at 8:55 AM on June 12, 2015
I'm preeeeeetty sure the only reason people shop at Whole Foods is the lack of a reasonably close Wegmans.
As a regular Wegmans shopper I have to say produce isn't their strongest suit, especially summer fruit, compared to the things they do amazingly well, like their sheer mind-numbing selection of general merchandise, wide array of bulk foods, the totally crazy prepared foods, bakery, and buffet zone, and surprisingly good quality inexpensive store brand items. But for produce it makes me crazy that they tend offer fruit picked way before ripe which will never develop any taste -- I gave up buying pears, plums, peaches, etc., from Wegmans years ago, in favor of farm markets in the area (or the Aldi, which has been lately kicking everything up a notch, including their produce, which I didn't used to take very seriously).
(Also, dammit, I desperately want to put the apostrophe in Wegmans every time I type it.)
As far as treating workers well, they do make a big deal out of being on the Fortune list of best places to work for in the country pretty much every year. (I think they were #7 last year.)
posted by aught at 8:58 AM on June 12, 2015
As a regular Wegmans shopper I have to say produce isn't their strongest suit, especially summer fruit, compared to the things they do amazingly well, like their sheer mind-numbing selection of general merchandise, wide array of bulk foods, the totally crazy prepared foods, bakery, and buffet zone, and surprisingly good quality inexpensive store brand items. But for produce it makes me crazy that they tend offer fruit picked way before ripe which will never develop any taste -- I gave up buying pears, plums, peaches, etc., from Wegmans years ago, in favor of farm markets in the area (or the Aldi, which has been lately kicking everything up a notch, including their produce, which I didn't used to take very seriously).
(Also, dammit, I desperately want to put the apostrophe in Wegmans every time I type it.)
As far as treating workers well, they do make a big deal out of being on the Fortune list of best places to work for in the country pretty much every year. (I think they were #7 last year.)
posted by aught at 8:58 AM on June 12, 2015
I just did some googling:
"It helps that Whole Foods' employees are better paid than the average grocery worker. The chain's average hourly wage was $18.89 in 2013, and the average annual wage was $39,289."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:59 AM on June 12, 2015
"It helps that Whole Foods' employees are better paid than the average grocery worker. The chain's average hourly wage was $18.89 in 2013, and the average annual wage was $39,289."
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 8:59 AM on June 12, 2015
If you want to get higher quality foodstuffs and feel righteous about the environment, just buy from small producers and don't pay too much attention to whether they are "organic" or not.
Small producers can be even worse than the large ones. I'm well acquainted with a local rancher whose beef I would never ever buy. Sometimes the small producers are not large because they are bad at what they do.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:04 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Small producers can be even worse than the large ones. I'm well acquainted with a local rancher whose beef I would never ever buy. Sometimes the small producers are not large because they are bad at what they do.
posted by Pogo_Fuzzybutt at 9:04 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
re: GMO's...
I saw a recent cartoon that nailed this:
Now: "If GMO's are so safe, then why are you afraid of labeling them?"
Later: "If GMO's are so safe, then why do they need warning labels?"
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:09 AM on June 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
I saw a recent cartoon that nailed this:
Now: "If GMO's are so safe, then why are you afraid of labeling them?"
Later: "If GMO's are so safe, then why do they need warning labels?"
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:09 AM on June 12, 2015 [8 favorites]
I was really excited when a large, full-time produce stand opened up a few blocks from here. For the first time in my urban life I could get my fruit and veg several times a week, a short stroll or a moment's detour away. I've always wanted to live in an area where you could walk down the street and get your grocery needs every few days instead of in big trips by car.
Imagine my disappointment when I realized that it was, judging purely by the consistent quality, an outlet for the picked-over produce after the restaurateurs and other wholesale customers had their picks. Bruised, bent, broken and getting-kinda-old produce a specialty. I wasn't sad when it closed some months later: apparently I wasn't the only one who was disappointed. And this is just the kind of area that would have sustained such a business if it had been any good.
posted by George_Spiggott at 9:09 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Imagine my disappointment when I realized that it was, judging purely by the consistent quality, an outlet for the picked-over produce after the restaurateurs and other wholesale customers had their picks. Bruised, bent, broken and getting-kinda-old produce a specialty. I wasn't sad when it closed some months later: apparently I wasn't the only one who was disappointed. And this is just the kind of area that would have sustained such a business if it had been any good.
posted by George_Spiggott at 9:09 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
If people dont get their high quality proteins and produce from Whole Foods, where else do you get it?
Trader Joe's
posted by Sir Rinse at 9:12 AM on June 12, 2015
Trader Joe's
posted by Sir Rinse at 9:12 AM on June 12, 2015
It helps that Whole Foods' employees are better paid than the average grocery worker
Do you happen to have a reference? And I'd like to see the median, not the average... when you put in the store managers, it skews significantly.
I might be wrong, though... my wife only worked there for 3 years.
posted by underflow at 9:17 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Do you happen to have a reference? And I'd like to see the median, not the average... when you put in the store managers, it skews significantly.
I might be wrong, though... my wife only worked there for 3 years.
posted by underflow at 9:17 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I should add, please keep in mind the geographic areas (and their associated cost of living) that WF targets.
posted by underflow at 9:19 AM on June 12, 2015
posted by underflow at 9:19 AM on June 12, 2015
organically grown produce is better for the environment and is more sustainable than conventionally grown produce because produce that qualifies for the USDA organic label does not, among other things, use petroleum-derived pesticides.
Don't be so sure about that. Consider that organic farmers have to use much larger amounts of the antifungals and pesticides they are permitted to use, because they are far less effective. These include such lovely substances as spinosad, pyrethrin, copper sulfate, azadirachtin, etc. Indeed, organic farmers can more or less use just about any "nonsynthetic substance" they want so long as it is not specifically prohibited on the USDA NOP list.
posted by slkinsey at 9:20 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Don't be so sure about that. Consider that organic farmers have to use much larger amounts of the antifungals and pesticides they are permitted to use, because they are far less effective. These include such lovely substances as spinosad, pyrethrin, copper sulfate, azadirachtin, etc. Indeed, organic farmers can more or less use just about any "nonsynthetic substance" they want so long as it is not specifically prohibited on the USDA NOP list.
posted by slkinsey at 9:20 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
And I will suggest that your conventional produce is going to have more pesticide/herbicide residues than my organically grown produce.
I thought it was the other way around—organic-labeled produce can actually have more pesticides and herbicides used on it, it's just that the ones used are categorized as "organic". Here's the list of synthetic substances allowed in organic farming, for example, which I reached through mistersquid's link above. Nonsynthetic substances appear to be allowed by default and there's only a list of prohibited substances, the text of which seems to imply that substances which have been mined are generally allowed?
posted by XMLicious at 9:23 AM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
It makes me so sad when people talk about "organic" as though it's only about the consumer's experience of taste or even individual health. Organic production's greatest benefit is to the environment and biome as a whole, and marketers completely ignore that. I understand why that happens, really I do, but it's just so depressing. New family mom, of course I want your baby to avoid chemicals, but don't you want your baby to be surrounded by healthy intelligent people, in a secure world where you don't have to be rich to be healthy?
posted by amtho at 9:25 AM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by amtho at 9:25 AM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm not really sure there is a legitimate reason to avoid foods with GMO ingredients. It's almost entirely a political stance, usually taken against companies who aren't the bad actors in that theater.
posted by mkultra at 11:33 AM on June 12 [3 favorites +] [!]
Boycotts are used as a tool to effect change with regard to a company's politics and policies. Some people are uncomfortable with a company patenting basic lines of food, they choose not to buy that food.
posted by edbles at 9:26 AM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by mkultra at 11:33 AM on June 12 [3 favorites +] [!]
Boycotts are used as a tool to effect change with regard to a company's politics and policies. Some people are uncomfortable with a company patenting basic lines of food, they choose not to buy that food.
posted by edbles at 9:26 AM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
This is 100% about pricing optimization. It's just like selling popcorn in the movie theater, or 87/89/93 gasoline.
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:26 AM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by RobotVoodooPower at 9:26 AM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
>If people dont get their high quality proteins and produce from Whole Foods, where else do you get it?
Malnourishment is pretty rare in the US, so I'd say the vast majority of grocery stores across the country provide high quality proteins and produce. Believe it or not, people who shop at Aldi's or Safeway can still eat pretty well.
posted by Poldo at 9:31 AM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
Malnourishment is pretty rare in the US, so I'd say the vast majority of grocery stores across the country provide high quality proteins and produce. Believe it or not, people who shop at Aldi's or Safeway can still eat pretty well.
posted by Poldo at 9:31 AM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
I mean high quality as in taste and condition, clearly.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:35 AM on June 12, 2015
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 9:35 AM on June 12, 2015
Organic production's greatest benefit is to the environment and biome as a whole
I think what some people are pointing out is that this is not necessarily the case. For example,using just about any synthetic antifungal is going to be better for the environment and biome as a whole than using copper sulfate. Indeed, the entire premise of organic farming specifically excludes the use of any synthetic substance that might be far better for the environment and biome as a whole compared to any available "nonsynthetic substance."
posted by slkinsey at 9:37 AM on June 12, 2015 [9 favorites]
I think what some people are pointing out is that this is not necessarily the case. For example,using just about any synthetic antifungal is going to be better for the environment and biome as a whole than using copper sulfate. Indeed, the entire premise of organic farming specifically excludes the use of any synthetic substance that might be far better for the environment and biome as a whole compared to any available "nonsynthetic substance."
posted by slkinsey at 9:37 AM on June 12, 2015 [9 favorites]
If people dont get their high quality proteins and produce from Whole Foods, where else do you get it?
wegmans wegmans bo begmans banana fana fo fegmans fee fi mo megmans
It's like the platonic form of the supermarket.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:48 AM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
wegmans wegmans bo begmans banana fana fo fegmans fee fi mo megmans
It's like the platonic form of the supermarket.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 9:48 AM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
Another amusing thing I noticed reading through the USDA stuff is that this pamphlet notes,
posted by XMLicious at 9:52 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]...the natural label does not include any standards regarding farm practices and only applies to processing of meat and egg products. There are no standards or regulations for the labeling of natural food products if they do not contain meat or eggs.
It's subjective, but I've shopped at all these places, and WF's stuff doesn't seem better in "taste and condition" than the cheaper alternatives. To tie this back to the subject article, it specifically says their new "good, better, best" rating system doesn't measure product quality but ancillary farming practices. I suspect they are hoping that like the organic label before it, the rating will have consumers confusing production practices with product quality.
posted by Poldo at 10:05 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Poldo at 10:05 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
Are all you smug people only buying food once a week?
Nearer to once annually, direct from the producers, for high quality proteins. But a deep freeze is indeed a blessing that cost money and space to afford.
posted by bonehead at 10:08 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Nearer to once annually, direct from the producers, for high quality proteins. But a deep freeze is indeed a blessing that cost money and space to afford.
posted by bonehead at 10:08 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I worked at the WFM HQ in ATX when John Mackey started talking about all this stuff in a town hall meeting. The idea here is that the organic standards are being captured by industry and WFM believes over time the organic standards will dilute and lose meaning. This is their attempt to help create a stronger industry standard that has not been captured and try to prevent capture from happening.
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:10 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Annika Cicada at 10:10 AM on June 12, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've always wondered how much the perceived higher quality of Whole Foods produce is completely based on how nicely they stock everything. Kind of like plate presentation in fine dining.
I mean seriously, how long does it take to stock those apples in perfect pyramids? Sure does look pretty though.
posted by mayonnaises at 10:13 AM on June 12, 2015
I mean seriously, how long does it take to stock those apples in perfect pyramids? Sure does look pretty though.
posted by mayonnaises at 10:13 AM on June 12, 2015
If people dont get their high quality proteins and produce from Whole Foods, where else do you get it?
Where are people getting their high quality drinking water if not from the bottled water section of Whole Foods?
posted by indubitable at 10:14 AM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
Where are people getting their high quality drinking water if not from the bottled water section of Whole Foods?
posted by indubitable at 10:14 AM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
I think GMO labeling isn't widespread because it's unnecessary and quickly becoming a scare term for not really any reason at all.
Yup, that was the point.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:15 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yup, that was the point.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:15 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Trader Joe's
I shop weekly at TJ's, but they're really not a great option for produce, on the whole (with a few specific exceptions).
I wish there was a handy-dandy word or phrase for "evidenced-based best environmental practice food production." "Organic" is so invested in ultimately meaningless concepts of the "natural" and the pre-technological that it's useless even as a rule of thumb for "least harmful impact on the planet." There needs to be a movement of producers (and consumers) doing certified, evidence-based, best-practice farming--using GMO's and synthetic fungicides etc. where the evidence is in favor of them and eschewing them where it's not. "Organic" vs "non-organic" is just meaningless.
posted by yoink at 10:15 AM on June 12, 2015 [13 favorites]
I shop weekly at TJ's, but they're really not a great option for produce, on the whole (with a few specific exceptions).
I wish there was a handy-dandy word or phrase for "evidenced-based best environmental practice food production." "Organic" is so invested in ultimately meaningless concepts of the "natural" and the pre-technological that it's useless even as a rule of thumb for "least harmful impact on the planet." There needs to be a movement of producers (and consumers) doing certified, evidence-based, best-practice farming--using GMO's and synthetic fungicides etc. where the evidence is in favor of them and eschewing them where it's not. "Organic" vs "non-organic" is just meaningless.
posted by yoink at 10:15 AM on June 12, 2015 [13 favorites]
This shell game is the only reason people shop at Whole Foods.
I shop at Whole Foods because of the walkin' around beer. The WAB has singlehandedly made grocery shopping my favorite chore.
posted by dirtdirt at 10:15 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
I shop at Whole Foods because of the walkin' around beer. The WAB has singlehandedly made grocery shopping my favorite chore.
posted by dirtdirt at 10:15 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is it possible to create a set of meaningful, public, transparent, measurable, evidence-based standards that can't/won't just be gamed?
posted by Sir Rinse at 10:35 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Sir Rinse at 10:35 AM on June 12, 2015 [1 favorite]
Is it possible to create a set of meaningful, public, transparent, measurable, evidence-based standards that can't/won't just be gamed?
Sure it is. First step: dismantle capitalism.
Now that the easy part's out of the way...
wait, where are you going? that was supposed to be the easier part of the problem!
posted by CrystalDave at 10:39 AM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
Sure it is. First step: dismantle capitalism.
Now that the easy part's out of the way...
wait, where are you going? that was supposed to be the easier part of the problem!
posted by CrystalDave at 10:39 AM on June 12, 2015 [5 favorites]
Is it possible to create a set of meaningful, public, transparent, measurable, evidence-based standards that can't/won't just be gamed?
I think it would be possible to have a board of review set up that certified food producers as conforming to best-available current practices. You'd need to set that board up in such a way that it was insulated from any industry suasion (no gifts, no junkets, no sponsorship etc.), but that doesn't seem impossible.
I don't think you could just issue a set of "standards" and leave it at that, no. For one thing, the science keeps evolving.
posted by yoink at 10:39 AM on June 12, 2015
I think it would be possible to have a board of review set up that certified food producers as conforming to best-available current practices. You'd need to set that board up in such a way that it was insulated from any industry suasion (no gifts, no junkets, no sponsorship etc.), but that doesn't seem impossible.
I don't think you could just issue a set of "standards" and leave it at that, no. For one thing, the science keeps evolving.
posted by yoink at 10:39 AM on June 12, 2015
Regulatory and/or consensus standards of practice and verification exist for other industries: air safety, medical production, even post farmer industrialized food inspection, to name a few, to varying degrees of success. It's very possible to do technically and has been for a while. The barriers are political and vested interests. Not all big business ones either.
posted by bonehead at 11:11 AM on June 12, 2015
posted by bonehead at 11:11 AM on June 12, 2015
If you want inexpensive, tasty produce, find out where the immigrants in your area shop. If you can find the sort of pan-ethnic grocery where some combination of people from Eastern Europe and Southeast Asia shop, you'll be good to go.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:29 AM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:29 AM on June 12, 2015 [4 favorites]
If people dont get their high quality proteins and produce from Whole Foods, where else do you get it?
westside market, union square greenmarket, fresh direct.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:29 PM on June 12, 2015
westside market, union square greenmarket, fresh direct.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:29 PM on June 12, 2015
There's also places like To The World Farm. (Which btw, if you are spending most of your paycheck on rent and transportation and you like vegetables, that place is freaking amazing for your perceived quality of life. One of the few places in Williamsburg I could feel like I was being completely profligate with my grocery shopping and still end up with a giant stack of delicious produce that somehow only cost fifteen bucks.)
posted by en forme de poire at 12:33 PM on June 12, 2015
posted by en forme de poire at 12:33 PM on June 12, 2015
If people dont get their high quality proteins and produce from Whole Foods, where else do you get it?
I've been mostly boycotting* Whole Foods for years since Libertarian co-CEO John Mackey wrote an editorial calling Obamacare facist and basically saying we should let homeless people die in the gutter without medical care because they could always get health insurance through their jobs, just look at how well it works for his employees!
Like, he literally opened the article with a quote by Margaret Thatcher. Dude is tenting his fingers and cackling while you buy your coconut oil to swish around in your mouth and spit out or whatever the hell else you buy there.
Anyway, I'm aware I'm the last grudge-holder, and everyone else capitulated years ago, but I shop at Treasure Island. It's a Chicagoland supermarket that specializes in European foods. It has everything. I can buy pea tendrils and beluga lentils and locally-produced andouille without lining the pockets of some cartoonishly evil Ayn-Rand-reading fat cat.
*I probably get hot bar like twice a year when I'm in a sad mood and I'm in a bougie neighborhood? I spend maybe $20 a year there, tops, when I would probably spend hundreds if I didn't hate them. I also probably eat like $30 of free samples there a year, so I think it works out.
posted by Juliet Banana at 1:23 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
I've been mostly boycotting* Whole Foods for years since Libertarian co-CEO John Mackey wrote an editorial calling Obamacare facist and basically saying we should let homeless people die in the gutter without medical care because they could always get health insurance through their jobs, just look at how well it works for his employees!
Like, he literally opened the article with a quote by Margaret Thatcher. Dude is tenting his fingers and cackling while you buy your coconut oil to swish around in your mouth and spit out or whatever the hell else you buy there.
Many promoters of health-care reform believe that people have an intrinsic ethical right to health care—to equal access to doctors, medicines and hospitals. While all of us empathize with those who are sick, how can we say that all people have more of an intrinsic right to health care than they have to food or shelter?Pretty easy to not believe in equal access to health care when you're rich and can actually afford it!
Anyway, I'm aware I'm the last grudge-holder, and everyone else capitulated years ago, but I shop at Treasure Island. It's a Chicagoland supermarket that specializes in European foods. It has everything. I can buy pea tendrils and beluga lentils and locally-produced andouille without lining the pockets of some cartoonishly evil Ayn-Rand-reading fat cat.
*I probably get hot bar like twice a year when I'm in a sad mood and I'm in a bougie neighborhood? I spend maybe $20 a year there, tops, when I would probably spend hundreds if I didn't hate them. I also probably eat like $30 of free samples there a year, so I think it works out.
posted by Juliet Banana at 1:23 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
Or you could just shop at Costco, which is the largest organic retailer in the country, and they treat their employees like human beings (try getting a job at Costco; 9/10 they will say they haven't had any new hires in years). But it's harder to pat yourself on the back when you go to Costco, I get that.
posted by Brocktoon at 1:23 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Brocktoon at 1:23 PM on June 12, 2015 [3 favorites]
I've never noticed any Costco shoppers having trouble patting themselves on the back.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 1:30 PM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 1:30 PM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
My god does everyone here think everyone elses choices of where they buy their food is for shallow self-identification, but wheverever I buy MY food is because I KNOW whats best and I do it for all the right reasons?
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:53 PM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 1:53 PM on June 12, 2015 [6 favorites]
And soon there'll be the new chain of stores that Whole Foods is planning to open as an alternative to itself.
posted by Sir Rinse at 5:09 PM on June 12, 2015
posted by Sir Rinse at 5:09 PM on June 12, 2015
I'd like to see a counter program from, say, Piggly Wiggly or Winn-Dixie that rates suppliers by their family life, church activity participation and just generally how well they keep God's laws.
Isn't that the Kosher label?
posted by maryr at 7:54 AM on June 13, 2015
Isn't that the Kosher label?
posted by maryr at 7:54 AM on June 13, 2015
My god does everyone here think everyone elses choices of where they buy their food is for shallow self-identification, but wheverever I buy MY food is because I KNOW whats best and I do it for all the right reasons?
It only applies to people who defend their choices angrily, because no one actually gives a shit where you shop.
posted by Brocktoon at 12:44 PM on June 13, 2015
It only applies to people who defend their choices angrily, because no one actually gives a shit where you shop.
posted by Brocktoon at 12:44 PM on June 13, 2015
I also own several Apple products because they get good battery life and the screens are nice, but by all means, please pass judgement on me there as well.
Ha. Guess you didn't check my profile, did you?
posted by sideshow at 12:33 PM on June 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ha. Guess you didn't check my profile, did you?
posted by sideshow at 12:33 PM on June 14, 2015 [2 favorites]
AndJulietBanana perfectly sums up why I don't work there anymore. I shop at Wheatsville these days. I go to WFM for lunch because it's close but it's not something that I really feel good about.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:29 AM on June 16, 2015
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:29 AM on June 16, 2015
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