10 years, 1,715,454,785 comments (.36% of which mention cats)
June 23, 2015 12:02 PM Subscribe
Reddit, the other front page of the internet, turned 10 today (best comment on the anniversary "We made it 10 years without drama!") and celebrated with a look back. It addition to the most liked posts, it also revealed some other interesting posts and replies. Some of the most gilded ever are well-written responses to Reddit's/the Internet's own problems (links go to responses, not topics): attacks on PUAs/MRAs, racism, and jokes about Asians. Of course, more true to popular form, the most gilded ever are about League of Legends and a NSFW thread that combines pranks with too much homophobic subtext. The most saved threads on Reddit tell you how to get free things on the internet, how to study, and where to go before you die. And, of course, there are good old standbys like "what is the best picture on the internet" and "what gif reduces you to laughter every time." Reddit now faces many challenges for its next 10 years.
I thought any time you link to reddit on metafilter, you have to act all apologetic and pretend like it's not something you frequent at all.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 12:17 PM on June 23, 2015 [43 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 12:17 PM on June 23, 2015 [43 favorites]
Say what you want about Reddit, but that GIFs thread is comedy gold.
posted by ryanshepard at 12:21 PM on June 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by ryanshepard at 12:21 PM on June 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
There was once a series of comics about the great Digg vs. Reddit wars that were really well done that compared and contrasted the differences between the two sites.
And then Digg took a perfect-form gainer into the shitter during their redesign and restructuring, sending an Eternal September-grade diaspora flood of users from Digg to Reddit. Many Redditors rejoiced, as though this were a victory.
There may or may not have been an additional episode of the comic describing this.
In practical reality, Digg won. Reddit was iffy before all of this, but after this it turned even more vehemently racists, sexist and misogynistic.
I seriously miss the pre-Digg diaspora Reddit. It wasn't perfect, but it was an arguably less shitty place back then. (Redditor for 7+ years, here, back from when /r/new was still vaguely useful.)
posted by loquacious at 12:22 PM on June 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
And then Digg took a perfect-form gainer into the shitter during their redesign and restructuring, sending an Eternal September-grade diaspora flood of users from Digg to Reddit. Many Redditors rejoiced, as though this were a victory.
There may or may not have been an additional episode of the comic describing this.
In practical reality, Digg won. Reddit was iffy before all of this, but after this it turned even more vehemently racists, sexist and misogynistic.
I seriously miss the pre-Digg diaspora Reddit. It wasn't perfect, but it was an arguably less shitty place back then. (Redditor for 7+ years, here, back from when /r/new was still vaguely useful.)
posted by loquacious at 12:22 PM on June 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
For those of you as confused as I was: gilding
posted by Ian A.T. at 12:23 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Ian A.T. at 12:23 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I use reddit for certain things - it's really very good at certain aspects - with yes, a lot of horrible shit attached. Ignoring the shit isn't a good way forward, but certain subreddits are the best option available online for some niche subjects.
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 12:24 PM on June 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by the uncomplicated soups of my childhood at 12:24 PM on June 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
Plenty of usefulness to Reddit and some great subreddits (/r/hockey, /r/formula1 and many more)
Some areas are ghastly wayback machines to conversations I had in 7th grade.
But all in all, I'll keep it.
posted by glaucon at 12:27 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Some areas are ghastly wayback machines to conversations I had in 7th grade.
But all in all, I'll keep it.
posted by glaucon at 12:27 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Why, back in my day, Reddit was all programming articles.
I know it seems shocking, but once upon a time the front page of Reddit looked the what Hacker News looks like today.
And basically Hacker News aggressively deletes things to keep that from happening again to them.
posted by GuyZero at 12:34 PM on June 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
I know it seems shocking, but once upon a time the front page of Reddit looked the what Hacker News looks like today.
And basically Hacker News aggressively deletes things to keep that from happening again to them.
posted by GuyZero at 12:34 PM on June 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
I honestly forget why there was such a digg vs. reddit war for a while. I used both but don't remember why other than I got different content from each.
My experiences with reddit these days primarily are in the forms of r/circlebroke, r/circlebroke2, r/ShitRedditSays, and a bunch of specific interest subs. The few defaults I'm subscribed to serve to remind me that there occasionally is good stuff on there and I'll read to comments because I enjoying stressing myself out.
posted by gucci mane at 12:36 PM on June 23, 2015
My experiences with reddit these days primarily are in the forms of r/circlebroke, r/circlebroke2, r/ShitRedditSays, and a bunch of specific interest subs. The few defaults I'm subscribed to serve to remind me that there occasionally is good stuff on there and I'll read to comments because I enjoying stressing myself out.
posted by gucci mane at 12:36 PM on June 23, 2015
I saw some retweet this morning containing a statement from Reddit's PR firm saying, "We do not agree with all the content on our site and neither do most of our users, but we are committed to promoting free expression."
Such a bullshit excuse. One doesn't let the KKK demonstrate in one's front yard because one is "committed to promoting free expression".
posted by orange swan at 12:43 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Such a bullshit excuse. One doesn't let the KKK demonstrate in one's front yard because one is "committed to promoting free expression".
posted by orange swan at 12:43 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
reddit (and MetaFilter) have convinced me that democracy can't work, or at least not online. The subreddits that have minimal moderation and let the votes decide are cesspools. The best reddits are the ones with clear rules that are strongly enforced by dedicated moderators. This is true of MetaFilter as well.
In other words, 2400 years later the Internet has proven Plato right. We need an elite of wise philosopher-kings and a class of guardians enforcing their policies to ensure peace and prosperity.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:48 PM on June 23, 2015 [18 favorites]
In other words, 2400 years later the Internet has proven Plato right. We need an elite of wise philosopher-kings and a class of guardians enforcing their policies to ensure peace and prosperity.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:48 PM on June 23, 2015 [18 favorites]
Okay, now that I've realized what it means, the fact that the #4 most gilded post of all time is Upvote this: Buy no gold until Pao Resigns! is maybe my favorite "Reddit as its own Microcosm" moment I've ever seen.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:48 PM on June 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by MCMikeNamara at 12:48 PM on June 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
One doesn't let the KKK demonstrate in one's front yard because one is "committed to promoting free expression."In fact, some of us do.
posted by MrMoonPie at 12:49 PM on June 23, 2015 [14 favorites]
One doesn't let the KKK demonstrate in one's front yard because one is "committed to promoting free expression."
In fact, some of us do.
This dichotomy is why Reddit is destined to be one of two things:
1) a shithole
OR
2) someplace you don't want to go
posted by GuyZero at 12:52 PM on June 23, 2015
In fact, some of us do.
This dichotomy is why Reddit is destined to be one of two things:
1) a shithole
OR
2) someplace you don't want to go
posted by GuyZero at 12:52 PM on June 23, 2015
Upvote this: Buy no gold until Pao Resigns! is maybe my favorite "Reddit as its own Microcosm" moment I've ever seen.
The most commented post of all time on Reddit: Please try to avoid doing things that might stress the servers, such as submitting a post that generates a gigantic comment thread.
MeFi rocks.
posted by blahblahblah at 12:52 PM on June 23, 2015
The most commented post of all time on Reddit: Please try to avoid doing things that might stress the servers, such as submitting a post that generates a gigantic comment thread.
MeFi rocks.
posted by blahblahblah at 12:52 PM on June 23, 2015
In fact, some of us do.
MrMoonPie
That's about making the government restricting speech. reddit is a private entity.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:55 PM on June 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
MrMoonPie
That's about making the government restricting speech. reddit is a private entity.
posted by Sangermaine at 12:55 PM on June 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
Uh, that should be "preventing the government from restricting speech"...
posted by Sangermaine at 1:02 PM on June 23, 2015
posted by Sangermaine at 1:02 PM on June 23, 2015
reddit (and MetaFilter) have convinced me that democracy can't work, or at least not online. The subreddits that have minimal moderation and let the votes decide are cesspools. The best reddits are the ones with clear rules that are strongly enforced by dedicated moderators. This is true of MetaFilter as well.
The best democracy is one with clear rules strongly enforced by dedicated moderators (albeit ones that are elected).
In other words, 2400 years later the Internet has proven Plato right. We need an elite of wise philosopher-kings and a class of guardians enforcing their policies to ensure peace and prosperity.
The glowing rectangle on which you are reading this is as good a metaphor for shadows on a cave wall as any, and all "Truths" discovered there, of which one is utterly convinced, should be viewed with skepticism.
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:07 PM on June 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
The best democracy is one with clear rules strongly enforced by dedicated moderators (albeit ones that are elected).
In other words, 2400 years later the Internet has proven Plato right. We need an elite of wise philosopher-kings and a class of guardians enforcing their policies to ensure peace and prosperity.
The glowing rectangle on which you are reading this is as good a metaphor for shadows on a cave wall as any, and all "Truths" discovered there, of which one is utterly convinced, should be viewed with skepticism.
posted by Celsius1414 at 1:07 PM on June 23, 2015 [7 favorites]
> In fact, some of us do.
Come on. The ACLU would not defend the right of the KKK to demonstrate on your personal property if you told them to get off your lawn and they refused, because it's not a right they have.
posted by rtha at 1:07 PM on June 23, 2015 [17 favorites]
Come on. The ACLU would not defend the right of the KKK to demonstrate on your personal property if you told them to get off your lawn and they refused, because it's not a right they have.
posted by rtha at 1:07 PM on June 23, 2015 [17 favorites]
If you select your subscribed subs carefully, reddit can be an enjoyably informative place. Whenever I read other people's descriptions of reddit as a racist sexist shithole I wonder what they're seeking out there to see such garbage, because I'm not seeing it. I just find mostly friendly communities serving niche interests.
posted by rocket88 at 1:12 PM on June 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by rocket88 at 1:12 PM on June 23, 2015 [10 favorites]
That gif thread has been entertaining me all morning.
I've been on reddit for a little more than five years (my 'cake day' is April 1, so I never get to reap that sweet cake day karma... alas.) and I've curated my front page so well that of all the posts mentioned in the blog, I'm only familiar with the POTUS ama, the double dick dude ama, and the story of Kevin, the dumbest person possibly to ever exist. I mostly enjoy my carefully tended and often pruned reddit experience.
posted by lovecrafty at 1:12 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I've been on reddit for a little more than five years (my 'cake day' is April 1, so I never get to reap that sweet cake day karma... alas.) and I've curated my front page so well that of all the posts mentioned in the blog, I'm only familiar with the POTUS ama, the double dick dude ama, and the story of Kevin, the dumbest person possibly to ever exist. I mostly enjoy my carefully tended and often pruned reddit experience.
posted by lovecrafty at 1:12 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
If you select your subscribed subs carefully, reddit can be an enjoyably informative place. Whenever I read other people's descriptions of reddit as a racist sexist shithole I wonder what they're seeking out there to see such garbage
I mean, you basically said it yourself, didn't you? If you don't select your subscribed subs carefully*, reddit can be a racist sexist shithole. It's honestly right there in your comment.
* which also means dropping old subs you used to love all the time because they turned into racist sexist shitholes, or seeking out the new version of the sub that will hopefully not become a racist sexist shithole for another few months
posted by dialetheia at 1:15 PM on June 23, 2015 [15 favorites]
I mean, you basically said it yourself, didn't you? If you don't select your subscribed subs carefully*, reddit can be a racist sexist shithole. It's honestly right there in your comment.
* which also means dropping old subs you used to love all the time because they turned into racist sexist shitholes, or seeking out the new version of the sub that will hopefully not become a racist sexist shithole for another few months
posted by dialetheia at 1:15 PM on June 23, 2015 [15 favorites]
The difference between a good subreddit and a bad subreddit is how quickly the racist sexist garbage that pops up gets downvoted to oblivion.
The difference between a bad subreddit and a shithole subreddit is whether the racist sexist garbage gets downvoted.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:18 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
The difference between a bad subreddit and a shithole subreddit is whether the racist sexist garbage gets downvoted.
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:18 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I really enjoyed the last 2 Reddit conversations we've had but I feel that we don't need to spend another 300 comments explaining that Reddit is fine is you carefully select for non-sexist/racist subs. Or refuting that point.
posted by kittensofthenight at 1:22 PM on June 23, 2015 [39 favorites]
posted by kittensofthenight at 1:22 PM on June 23, 2015 [39 favorites]
Sangermaine: "reddit (and MetaFilter) have convinced me that democracy can't work, or at least not online."
Well, the thing is that Reddit is not even really organized as a democracy. Although the upvote/downvote mechanic provides a veneer of democratic participation, a lot of the real power lies in the moderation structure which is essentially immune to any democratic action. As this Slate article puts it, "Reddit itself is less a democracy than a fiefdom system of autocrats". If you don't like a subreddit's direction/moderation, your only recourse is to leave and start your own subreddit or possibly get a higher-ranked moderator to kick out the rogue moderator... unless the rogue moderator is the highest-ranked moderator on that subreddit. This only occasionally happens, like when r/booksuggestions went all to hell when the top mod either lost a bet and/or just decided to stop giving a shit. But, when it does, it highlights the fundamentally undemocratic structure of subreddit governance.
posted by mhum at 1:24 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
Well, the thing is that Reddit is not even really organized as a democracy. Although the upvote/downvote mechanic provides a veneer of democratic participation, a lot of the real power lies in the moderation structure which is essentially immune to any democratic action. As this Slate article puts it, "Reddit itself is less a democracy than a fiefdom system of autocrats". If you don't like a subreddit's direction/moderation, your only recourse is to leave and start your own subreddit or possibly get a higher-ranked moderator to kick out the rogue moderator... unless the rogue moderator is the highest-ranked moderator on that subreddit. This only occasionally happens, like when r/booksuggestions went all to hell when the top mod either lost a bet and/or just decided to stop giving a shit. But, when it does, it highlights the fundamentally undemocratic structure of subreddit governance.
posted by mhum at 1:24 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I've been on reddit for nine years, and seen it evolve from a place where Paul Graham is god to what it is today. I started lurking at the time they introduced comments, and when the founders provoked some heated discussion by changing their server backend from Lisp to Python.
I honestly don't understand why any discussion of reddit outside of reddit seems to include so much smugness and moral high-horsing. It's probably the largest dedicated discussion forum on the internet. It is a microcosm of the internet as much as anything. What did you expect?
posted by simen at 1:25 PM on June 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
I honestly don't understand why any discussion of reddit outside of reddit seems to include so much smugness and moral high-horsing. It's probably the largest dedicated discussion forum on the internet. It is a microcosm of the internet as much as anything. What did you expect?
posted by simen at 1:25 PM on June 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
A lot of these gifs would benefit from a Bob Saget voiceover.
posted by dr_dank at 1:26 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 1:26 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I thought any time you link to reddit on metafilter, you have to act all apologetic and pretend like it's not something you frequent at all.
For every bad thing on Reddit (sub, post, whatever) there is also something good. Much like Wiki, Amazon, and Netflix, I'm having trouble imagining my life with it. I'm also perfectly fine with them banning the worst offenders, but I don't envy them having to decide what to allow and what not to allow. Let's not pretend that's easy, because it isn't.
What Reddit needs is a comprehensive way to ignore certain subjects and posters. Actually, that feature should be available on every major website and search engine, sort of like a universal firewall for the worst of the worst. Imagine how much more civil some public figures would become if they know you could ignore them forever, with absolutely no chance to hear about them again anywhere on the internet.
posted by Beholder at 1:28 PM on June 23, 2015
For every bad thing on Reddit (sub, post, whatever) there is also something good. Much like Wiki, Amazon, and Netflix, I'm having trouble imagining my life with it. I'm also perfectly fine with them banning the worst offenders, but I don't envy them having to decide what to allow and what not to allow. Let's not pretend that's easy, because it isn't.
What Reddit needs is a comprehensive way to ignore certain subjects and posters. Actually, that feature should be available on every major website and search engine, sort of like a universal firewall for the worst of the worst. Imagine how much more civil some public figures would become if they know you could ignore them forever, with absolutely no chance to hear about them again anywhere on the internet.
posted by Beholder at 1:28 PM on June 23, 2015
What did you expect?
Reddit has grown, and if it's considered a "microcosm of the Internet" it's gonna influence and be pulled into beefs that are affecting the wider internet. And the last time I checked, there's quite a lot of debate on the Internet about racism, sexism, and online etiquette. And yeah, there's a lot of smugness out there too.
So, dude, what did you expect?
posted by FJT at 1:30 PM on June 23, 2015
Reddit has grown, and if it's considered a "microcosm of the Internet" it's gonna influence and be pulled into beefs that are affecting the wider internet. And the last time I checked, there's quite a lot of debate on the Internet about racism, sexism, and online etiquette. And yeah, there's a lot of smugness out there too.
So, dude, what did you expect?
posted by FJT at 1:30 PM on June 23, 2015
I honestly don't understand why any discussion of reddit outside of reddit seems to include so much smugness and moral high-horsing.
simen
I think it's because places like MetaFilter may have their faults, but we've never done anything like falsely accusing some brown guy of being a terrorist because he happened to be near the Boston Bombing and then proceeded to harass that guy's family, or fighting tooth and claw to keep around massive "jailbait" and "creeper" communities in the face of universal disgust.
It's probably the largest dedicated discussion forum on the internet. It is a microcosm of the internet as much as anything. What did you expect?
This is pretty disingenuous. reddit may like to call itself "the front page of the Internet", but it's still one entity with owners, admins, and moderators. The Internet isn't. So while "the Internet" can be a sprawling mess because it's a vast collection of entities with no central control, the people who run reddit could choose to run the site any way they please, and that includes creating rules and policies that make it less of a cesspool.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:34 PM on June 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
simen
I think it's because places like MetaFilter may have their faults, but we've never done anything like falsely accusing some brown guy of being a terrorist because he happened to be near the Boston Bombing and then proceeded to harass that guy's family, or fighting tooth and claw to keep around massive "jailbait" and "creeper" communities in the face of universal disgust.
It's probably the largest dedicated discussion forum on the internet. It is a microcosm of the internet as much as anything. What did you expect?
This is pretty disingenuous. reddit may like to call itself "the front page of the Internet", but it's still one entity with owners, admins, and moderators. The Internet isn't. So while "the Internet" can be a sprawling mess because it's a vast collection of entities with no central control, the people who run reddit could choose to run the site any way they please, and that includes creating rules and policies that make it less of a cesspool.
posted by Sangermaine at 1:34 PM on June 23, 2015 [13 favorites]
I love reddit
posted by growabrain at 1:47 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by growabrain at 1:47 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
MetaFilter: would benefit from a Bob Saget voiceover.
posted by asperity at 1:49 PM on June 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by asperity at 1:49 PM on June 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
I love redditEpony... nah, too easy.
posted by growabrain at 16:47 on June 23 [+] [!]
posted by scruss at 1:54 PM on June 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
This is pretty disingenuous. reddit may like to call itself "the front page of the Internet", but it's still one entity with owners, admins, and moderators. The Internet isn't. So while "the Internet" can be a sprawling mess because it's a vast collection of entities with no central control, the people who run reddit could choose to run the site any way they please, and that includes creating rules and policies that make it less of a cesspool.
Exactly. As much as it likes to style itself as such, it's not so much a community but a tool, and it's the 24th visited website according to Alexa traffic in March of this year and should be treated as such. If ebay was selling kiddie porn or when Facebook has groups that are deemed offensive or Amazon is selling stuff that's considered racist, some people would bring it up every time it came up, and rightly so.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:54 PM on June 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
Exactly. As much as it likes to style itself as such, it's not so much a community but a tool, and it's the 24th visited website according to Alexa traffic in March of this year and should be treated as such. If ebay was selling kiddie porn or when Facebook has groups that are deemed offensive or Amazon is selling stuff that's considered racist, some people would bring it up every time it came up, and rightly so.
posted by MCMikeNamara at 1:54 PM on June 23, 2015 [6 favorites]
The best reddits are the ones with clear rules that are strongly enforced by dedicated moderators.
See: /r/askHistorians
Every other thread on the front page in their comments will have threads of discussion deleted because it's not up to par. Its absolutely merciless, and it's great.
posted by Dalby at 1:55 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
See: /r/askHistorians
Every other thread on the front page in their comments will have threads of discussion deleted because it's not up to par. Its absolutely merciless, and it's great.
posted by Dalby at 1:55 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
If you don't actually enjoy playing games so much as breaking games with painstaking, spreadsheets-and-regression-analysis-oh-boy pre-planning, Reddit is a fucking Shangri-La for connecting and collaborating with other min/max-obsessed gamers.
Limiting my usage to this sole purpose involves a fair amount of reading other people's experiences with the site and being like "What? Racism? Sexism? On Reddit?" - then visiting the front page of any single major sub-reddit, at all, swiftly followed by "...oh. Well that sucks."
Point is: there are usage patterns for the site where you're about as likely to encounter deliberate prejudice as on Metafilter. This probably correlates almost perfectly with increasingly niche interests.
posted by Ryvar at 2:08 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Limiting my usage to this sole purpose involves a fair amount of reading other people's experiences with the site and being like "What? Racism? Sexism? On Reddit?" - then visiting the front page of any single major sub-reddit, at all, swiftly followed by "...oh. Well that sucks."
Point is: there are usage patterns for the site where you're about as likely to encounter deliberate prejudice as on Metafilter. This probably correlates almost perfectly with increasingly niche interests.
posted by Ryvar at 2:08 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
What ticks me off about the "Reddit is great if you curate your subs" argument is that it encourages people to ignore, if not deny, the problem.
I can avoid certain parts of my town and never see a homeless person. But that doesn't mean the homelessness problem is solved.
posted by Monochrome at 2:18 PM on June 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
I can avoid certain parts of my town and never see a homeless person. But that doesn't mean the homelessness problem is solved.
posted by Monochrome at 2:18 PM on June 23, 2015 [9 favorites]
Just want to mention that we had the discussion about avoiding shittiness by sticking to niche subs pretty recently, and that the most important responses to that point of view were that the relative lack of shittiness on niche subs is often more due to luck than anything else, and that ignoring shittiness on large subs simply allows Reddit to remain a haven and source for shittiness that can later appear in or colonize niche subs (aside from, you know, being a haven and source for shittiness in general).
posted by J.K. Seazer at 2:36 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by J.K. Seazer at 2:36 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
My biggest argument against Reddit is Metafilter. This is how a non-sexist/racist/homo-transphobic/misogynistic/body-shaming/paedophilic user-generated online community can work. It's not a fluke, it takes work. If Reddit sees such work as too hard, beneath it, or somehow anathema to its interpretation of 'free speech', so be it, but don't pretend it's the only way things can be.
posted by signal at 2:43 PM on June 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by signal at 2:43 PM on June 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
One caveat, though, is that Metafilter can afford to moderate its discussions in this top-down way because it's relatively small and manageable (compared to Reddit.) I'm not sure how the moderators on this site would deal with the problem if it were as massive.
posted by naju at 2:49 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by naju at 2:49 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
What ticks me off about the "Reddit is great if you curate your subs" argument is that it encourages people to ignore, if not deny, the problem.
I can avoid certain parts of my town and never see a homeless person. But that doesn't mean the homelessness problem is solved.
True, but it also doesn't mean your town is a shithole.
posted by rocket88 at 2:58 PM on June 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I can avoid certain parts of my town and never see a homeless person. But that doesn't mean the homelessness problem is solved.
True, but it also doesn't mean your town is a shithole.
posted by rocket88 at 2:58 PM on June 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
With respect to my beloved Metafilter (I don't have much experience with Reddi)t, I get more pure joy from the AV Club comments than any other single place on the Internet. It's somehow managed for years to sustain the perfect ratio of silly:thoughtful:snarky:laid back that I crave in my Internet communities. To be fair, though, it's mostly limited to pop culture and discrete topical newsbites.
posted by echocollate at 2:58 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by echocollate at 2:58 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
True, but it also doesn't mean your town is a shithole.
There's an anecdote from the Emanuel AME thread which is weirdly applicable here.
A friendly (older, white) man from Charleston who used to work sales in the South for my company told me a story a few years ago about showing co-workers visiting from other parts of the country around town. "Well, everybody wants to have some excellent barbecue, of course," he said matter-of-factly, "but I have to be careful which places I take folks to because, you know, a lot of the best barbeque places have Klan pamphlets and flyers out on the tables, and while us locals are used to it and just ignore that nonsense, you Yankees do get upset when they see that kind of thing."
Even if you warn your friends about the Klan parts of town and have come up with a commute which allows you to rarely end up visiting the Klan parts of town, having Klan parts of town means you can't really say it's not a racist town.
while us Redditors are used to it and just ignore that nonsense, you Mefites do get upset when you see that kind of thing
posted by CrystalDave at 3:08 PM on June 23, 2015 [17 favorites]
There's an anecdote from the Emanuel AME thread which is weirdly applicable here.
A friendly (older, white) man from Charleston who used to work sales in the South for my company told me a story a few years ago about showing co-workers visiting from other parts of the country around town. "Well, everybody wants to have some excellent barbecue, of course," he said matter-of-factly, "but I have to be careful which places I take folks to because, you know, a lot of the best barbeque places have Klan pamphlets and flyers out on the tables, and while us locals are used to it and just ignore that nonsense, you Yankees do get upset when they see that kind of thing."
Even if you warn your friends about the Klan parts of town and have come up with a commute which allows you to rarely end up visiting the Klan parts of town, having Klan parts of town means you can't really say it's not a racist town.
while us Redditors are used to it and just ignore that nonsense, you Mefites do get upset when you see that kind of thing
posted by CrystalDave at 3:08 PM on June 23, 2015 [17 favorites]
I've had "type reddit into my URL bar" on muscle memory for years and have carefully curated my subs to try to clear out the awful stuff for about as long and yet my little game of 'how quickly can I regret opening reddit today' still averages about 30 seconds of scanning. The site has a pervasive problem and (as it's founded on 'free speech trumps all') it won't be solved anytime soon.
posted by flatluigi at 3:09 PM on June 23, 2015
posted by flatluigi at 3:09 PM on June 23, 2015
J.K. Seazer: "the most important responses to that point of view were that the relative lack of shittiness on niche subs is often more due to luck than anything else,"
Your choice of "most important" is incorrect in my experience. I'm subscribed to a large number of niche subreddits and some not so niche, and the only subs with occasional noticeable (not overwhelming) casual bigotry are /r/gifs (which is huge) and /r/justrolledintotheshop (which is kind of big and, I dunno, maybe frequented by a more uneducated sort than my other subs?). Even in these, as pointed out by prize bull octorok, the shittiness typically gets downvoted to oblivion and/or the account holder feels pressured to delete the comment or wipe out the whole account.
posted by exogenous at 3:21 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Your choice of "most important" is incorrect in my experience. I'm subscribed to a large number of niche subreddits and some not so niche, and the only subs with occasional noticeable (not overwhelming) casual bigotry are /r/gifs (which is huge) and /r/justrolledintotheshop (which is kind of big and, I dunno, maybe frequented by a more uneducated sort than my other subs?). Even in these, as pointed out by prize bull octorok, the shittiness typically gets downvoted to oblivion and/or the account holder feels pressured to delete the comment or wipe out the whole account.
posted by exogenous at 3:21 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
"I live in a rather special world. I only know one person who voted for Nixon. Where they are I don't know. They're outside my ken. But sometimes when I'm in a theater I can feel them." —Pauline Kael
Smaller communities like Metafilter, with vigilant moderation of posts and comments that go too far outside the community norms, are great for maintaining those norms. And it is pretty nice to be in a special world where racism, homophobia, misogyny, and their ilk are kept out. But we need theaters too, where people who fundamentally disagree can see that the other exists.
I've seen a lot of people saying that "free speech" applies only to the government, and private entities like Reddit can do as they please. That's right, they can. But there is value in private entities who willingly publish speech that their leaders disagree with and even hate. I don't want to get stuck in a filter bubble where everyone is tolerant and liberal and agrees with my standards of decency, because I still have to live in the real world, where people who don't fit in that bubble have an effect on my life. If everyone behaved like Metafilter instead of Reddit, my only option to escape one filter bubble would be to seek out a differing one, which would be a lot more repulsive than an all-inclusive site where people can disagree with each other without feeling totally out of place.
(Corollary: when we no longer have to live in the real world, because we've all been uploaded post-Singularity, everyone really can live in a filtered world of their own choosing. But that's still a long way away.)
posted by Rangi at 3:21 PM on June 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
Smaller communities like Metafilter, with vigilant moderation of posts and comments that go too far outside the community norms, are great for maintaining those norms. And it is pretty nice to be in a special world where racism, homophobia, misogyny, and their ilk are kept out. But we need theaters too, where people who fundamentally disagree can see that the other exists.
I've seen a lot of people saying that "free speech" applies only to the government, and private entities like Reddit can do as they please. That's right, they can. But there is value in private entities who willingly publish speech that their leaders disagree with and even hate. I don't want to get stuck in a filter bubble where everyone is tolerant and liberal and agrees with my standards of decency, because I still have to live in the real world, where people who don't fit in that bubble have an effect on my life. If everyone behaved like Metafilter instead of Reddit, my only option to escape one filter bubble would be to seek out a differing one, which would be a lot more repulsive than an all-inclusive site where people can disagree with each other without feeling totally out of place.
(Corollary: when we no longer have to live in the real world, because we've all been uploaded post-Singularity, everyone really can live in a filtered world of their own choosing. But that's still a long way away.)
posted by Rangi at 3:21 PM on June 23, 2015 [8 favorites]
Say what you want about Reddit, but that GIFs thread is comedy gold.
I am actually wheezing right now that's so fucking funny!
posted by billiebee at 4:16 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am actually wheezing right now that's so fucking funny!
posted by billiebee at 4:16 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
That's about making the government restricting speech. reddit is a private entity.
Personally I like things pruned a little to keep the worst trolls and assholes away, but are you implying that a private entity can't be committed to promoting free expression?
Come on. The ACLU would not defend the right of the KKK to demonstrate on your personal property if you told them to get off your lawn and they refused, because it's not a right they have.
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the principle of it. Reddit claims to be committed to the principle of "free expression" or whatever so while it may be private property, they are on principle not asking every moron with something repulsive to say to leave--it is closer to setting up a speaker's corner on private property and letting anybody at all scream their tiny, closed, idiot minds out. And letting people boo them off stage or applaud them. And sometimes the President of the USA or the former Governor of California or Snoop Dogg show up.
posted by Hoopo at 4:37 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Personally I like things pruned a little to keep the worst trolls and assholes away, but are you implying that a private entity can't be committed to promoting free expression?
Come on. The ACLU would not defend the right of the KKK to demonstrate on your personal property if you told them to get off your lawn and they refused, because it's not a right they have.
I'm pretty sure he's talking about the principle of it. Reddit claims to be committed to the principle of "free expression" or whatever so while it may be private property, they are on principle not asking every moron with something repulsive to say to leave--it is closer to setting up a speaker's corner on private property and letting anybody at all scream their tiny, closed, idiot minds out. And letting people boo them off stage or applaud them. And sometimes the President of the USA or the former Governor of California or Snoop Dogg show up.
posted by Hoopo at 4:37 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
One caveat, though, is that Metafilter can afford to moderate its discussions in this top-down way because it's relatively small and manageable (compared to Reddit.) I'm not sure how the moderators on this site would deal with the problem if it were as massive
By having many, many more moderators! Reddit's revenue dwarfs Metafilter's revenue. But that won't happen because the parent company likely believes it would decrease revenue not increase it.
posted by Justinian at 4:44 PM on June 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
By having many, many more moderators! Reddit's revenue dwarfs Metafilter's revenue. But that won't happen because the parent company likely believes it would decrease revenue not increase it.
posted by Justinian at 4:44 PM on June 23, 2015 [3 favorites]
I read reddit every day. Perhaps I shouldn't.
Interesting to see these best ofs which I saw before at the time. The "how to learn" thread is as good as it was. The "51 places to visit before dying" thread is exactly as misnamed as it was before - it should really be called "51 places which make for a very impressive photo" as a lot of these places would be very hard to get to and not much to do once you were there. There's a message there, not sure what that message is...
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 5:20 PM on June 23, 2015
Interesting to see these best ofs which I saw before at the time. The "how to learn" thread is as good as it was. The "51 places to visit before dying" thread is exactly as misnamed as it was before - it should really be called "51 places which make for a very impressive photo" as a lot of these places would be very hard to get to and not much to do once you were there. There's a message there, not sure what that message is...
posted by lupus_yonderboy at 5:20 PM on June 23, 2015
One caveat, though, is that Metafilter can afford to moderate its discussions in this top-down way because it's relatively small and manageable (compared to Reddit.)
Reddit explicitly disallows mods getting paid, though. I bet some communities, like /r/AskHistorians and other big/useful ones, could probably crowdfund/Patreon paying their mods. But this is against the TOS. This is one of the many ways reddit depends on the uncompensated work of its moderators, and they don't even get a good toolset to work with-- no IP bans or other ways to prevent sockpuppets, etc.
posted by NoraReed at 6:45 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Reddit explicitly disallows mods getting paid, though. I bet some communities, like /r/AskHistorians and other big/useful ones, could probably crowdfund/Patreon paying their mods. But this is against the TOS. This is one of the many ways reddit depends on the uncompensated work of its moderators, and they don't even get a good toolset to work with-- no IP bans or other ways to prevent sockpuppets, etc.
posted by NoraReed at 6:45 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Most of the gifs in the gif thread did not make me laugh. Way too much FAIL. One comment, "so cruel yet so hilarious" seemed to sum up everything. (But the one near the end with the bodybuilder actually gave me a long-lasting smile. Still, until it looped, I was cringing waiting for the 'falls down' moment that never came.)
Gifs like this do make me laugh.
And this.
And this.
And this.
And yet, I know if I had submitted any of them, they'd have been downvoted into obscurity. That's why, for me, even the not-awful parts of Reddit are not-good.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:44 PM on June 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
Gifs like this do make me laugh.
And this.
And this.
And this.
And yet, I know if I had submitted any of them, they'd have been downvoted into obscurity. That's why, for me, even the not-awful parts of Reddit are not-good.
posted by oneswellfoop at 7:44 PM on June 23, 2015 [4 favorites]
This dichotomy is why Reddit is destined to be one of two things:
1) a shithole
OR
2) someplace you don't want to go
One man's shithole, is another pig's wallow. Evidently there are enough piggies who do want to go to Reddit, despite all the shit. But then again there are also serious fans of Justin Bieber. So there's something for everyone, I guess.
posted by theorique at 7:50 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
1) a shithole
OR
2) someplace you don't want to go
One man's shithole, is another pig's wallow. Evidently there are enough piggies who do want to go to Reddit, despite all the shit. But then again there are also serious fans of Justin Bieber. So there's something for everyone, I guess.
posted by theorique at 7:50 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
One man's shithole, is another pig's wallow
Just for the record, pigs keep their wallows clean, and shit far away elsewhere (unless they're unable because of tight caging of course). And as a four-year-old I found pig wallows very enjoyable: warm squishy mud, yay!
posted by anadem at 8:01 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Just for the record, pigs keep their wallows clean, and shit far away elsewhere (unless they're unable because of tight caging of course). And as a four-year-old I found pig wallows very enjoyable: warm squishy mud, yay!
posted by anadem at 8:01 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
The "51 places to visit before dying" thread is exactly as misnamed as it was before - it should really be called "51 places which make for a very impressive photo" as a lot of these places would be very hard to get to and not much to do once you were there. There's a message there, not sure what that message is...
51 places that we're glad somebody else went to for our benefit?
posted by Rangi at 8:12 PM on June 23, 2015
51 places that we're glad somebody else went to for our benefit?
posted by Rangi at 8:12 PM on June 23, 2015
Most of the gifs in the gif thread did not make me laugh. Way too much FAIL.
Word. Most did nothing for me, for the same reason, until I got to this one which had me laughing until I choked:
MIKE! YOU FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT!
Amazing on multiple levels. Best GIF I've seen in months, maybe years.
posted by Ryvar at 9:29 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Word. Most did nothing for me, for the same reason, until I got to this one which had me laughing until I choked:
MIKE! YOU FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT!
Amazing on multiple levels. Best GIF I've seen in months, maybe years.
posted by Ryvar at 9:29 PM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]
Considering how much Metafilter claims to hate libertarianism, it's strange how often I see the libertarian argument that "it's only censorship if the government does it".
Consider things like the Hays code that governed most movies in the mid twentieth century. (Or the Comics Code or the BBFC). None of those were government bodies, they were all private and theoretically voluntary. If you didn't like the Hays code ban on "miscegenation", you were perfectly free to hire your own actors, cameramen, editors, gaffers and grips; then build your own chain of cinemas, and show your own movie with a mixed-race love story.
In practice this is difficult. Large corporations exert what Gramsci called hegemonic power to shape culture, even without the government or laws being involved.
One of the big unspoken assumptions on Metafilter is thatthe hegemonic power of corporations can and should be used to further liberal ends. But it is possible to disagree with this, and be mistrustful of the hegemonic power of corporations itself.
One more thing: from 1912 to 1985 the BBFC was called the "British Board of Film Censors", after which it changed to the "British Board of Film Classification". It was always an industry body and never part of the government. If you think the people who called themselves Censors and literally snipped the naughty bits out of movies weren't actually censors, then you're redefining the term substantially.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:51 PM on June 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
Consider things like the Hays code that governed most movies in the mid twentieth century. (Or the Comics Code or the BBFC). None of those were government bodies, they were all private and theoretically voluntary. If you didn't like the Hays code ban on "miscegenation", you were perfectly free to hire your own actors, cameramen, editors, gaffers and grips; then build your own chain of cinemas, and show your own movie with a mixed-race love story.
In practice this is difficult. Large corporations exert what Gramsci called hegemonic power to shape culture, even without the government or laws being involved.
One of the big unspoken assumptions on Metafilter is that
One more thing: from 1912 to 1985 the BBFC was called the "British Board of Film Censors", after which it changed to the "British Board of Film Classification". It was always an industry body and never part of the government. If you think the people who called themselves Censors and literally snipped the naughty bits out of movies weren't actually censors, then you're redefining the term substantially.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 9:51 PM on June 23, 2015 [11 favorites]
That's a good argument, and a well made point. I'd agree that is censorship, or at least self-censorship .
Unfortunately, the argument I see most often from self-described libertarians is more akin to saying that being prevented from spraypainting THAT WAS A SHITTY MOVIE WIH A SHITTY AGENDA on the movie posters outside the cinema is censorship.
Which, no, that's not what that is.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:06 PM on June 23, 2015
Unfortunately, the argument I see most often from self-described libertarians is more akin to saying that being prevented from spraypainting THAT WAS A SHITTY MOVIE WIH A SHITTY AGENDA on the movie posters outside the cinema is censorship.
Which, no, that's not what that is.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 10:06 PM on June 23, 2015
oneswellfoop: "Most of the gifs in the gif thread did not make me laugh. Way too much FAIL."
I was surprised at how little FAIL there was...and how much of the fail that was there was cute fail, instead of painful/humiliating fail.
And from the "Best picture" thread, I've watched this one like twenty times already today. MetaFilter had kinda primed me to think that Redditors would all hate stuff like this, not upvote it into the top 20.
posted by Bugbread at 11:33 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
I was surprised at how little FAIL there was...and how much of the fail that was there was cute fail, instead of painful/humiliating fail.
And from the "Best picture" thread, I've watched this one like twenty times already today. MetaFilter had kinda primed me to think that Redditors would all hate stuff like this, not upvote it into the top 20.
posted by Bugbread at 11:33 PM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]
in truth, the latest fiasco with fatpeoplehate etc is what made me sign up for a metafilter account. That, and a particularly helpful comment by a metafilter user on an issue I was having that really helped me out
posted by lzd at 11:38 PM on June 23, 2015
posted by lzd at 11:38 PM on June 23, 2015
...libertarian argument that "it's only censorship if the government does it"...
In practical terms that point tends to be lost on just about everyone whose ox is gored, but perhaps as a biased individual I see it more on the right as of recent years -- like Rush Limbaugh and his fans when he called Sandra Fluke a "slut" and lost sponsors for awhile and thereafter railed about free speech and censorship. Or with Glenn Beck. Or, apolitically, my dumb ex-brother-in-law who would say dumb stuff on facebook, and cry about "free speech" if you simply pointed out how dumb it was to talk shit about your wife and your dispute over household chores on facebook...
"Censorship" is a word that can be applied deftly and with certain connotations and in different contexts. I can absolutely appreciate that non-governing bodies that have an effective monopoly on the means of production in a given industry can effectively be censors and are inherently corruptible by money just as much as congresspeople are -- and liberals are all-too-happy to fight against censorship in the press, literature, film, music, etc. Many of us totally get behind, for an example on the continuum, that a news network is essentially self-censoring when it doesn't present big mainstream stories that may offend its advertisers or even viewing base.
Where I don't think it's "censorship" is when it's a community of users in a discussion forum, willing participants under specific terms and conditions, with obvious benefits to moderation, and proven negative consequences to the user community and the greater internet when harassment and hatred are allowed unabated.
I tend not to focus on whether government has a monopoly on censorship, and more on whether people have a right to say anything they want without receiving criticism or any consequences as a result of lost sources of revenue. I tend not to focus on whether Twitter or Reddit is censoring users when they are directly harassing others, and instead see it something that demands an Internet-civilization-equivalent response to what you might expect to see if a police officer saw a man screaming "I will ____ you, ________________ ___________ ________[etc]!" at a woman in broad daylight for no apparent reason.
posted by aydeejones at 12:14 AM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
In practical terms that point tends to be lost on just about everyone whose ox is gored, but perhaps as a biased individual I see it more on the right as of recent years -- like Rush Limbaugh and his fans when he called Sandra Fluke a "slut" and lost sponsors for awhile and thereafter railed about free speech and censorship. Or with Glenn Beck. Or, apolitically, my dumb ex-brother-in-law who would say dumb stuff on facebook, and cry about "free speech" if you simply pointed out how dumb it was to talk shit about your wife and your dispute over household chores on facebook...
"Censorship" is a word that can be applied deftly and with certain connotations and in different contexts. I can absolutely appreciate that non-governing bodies that have an effective monopoly on the means of production in a given industry can effectively be censors and are inherently corruptible by money just as much as congresspeople are -- and liberals are all-too-happy to fight against censorship in the press, literature, film, music, etc. Many of us totally get behind, for an example on the continuum, that a news network is essentially self-censoring when it doesn't present big mainstream stories that may offend its advertisers or even viewing base.
Where I don't think it's "censorship" is when it's a community of users in a discussion forum, willing participants under specific terms and conditions, with obvious benefits to moderation, and proven negative consequences to the user community and the greater internet when harassment and hatred are allowed unabated.
I tend not to focus on whether government has a monopoly on censorship, and more on whether people have a right to say anything they want without receiving criticism or any consequences as a result of lost sources of revenue. I tend not to focus on whether Twitter or Reddit is censoring users when they are directly harassing others, and instead see it something that demands an Internet-civilization-equivalent response to what you might expect to see if a police officer saw a man screaming "I will ____ you, ________________ ___________ ________[etc]!" at a woman in broad daylight for no apparent reason.
posted by aydeejones at 12:14 AM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
And yet, I know if I had submitted any of them, they'd have been downvoted into obscurity.
Odd. I've seen all of those as top-rated images in the funny/gifs subreddit. Maybe they serve different images to different people, and you unfortunately got the short end of the stick.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:34 AM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
Odd. I've seen all of those as top-rated images in the funny/gifs subreddit. Maybe they serve different images to different people, and you unfortunately got the short end of the stick.
posted by five fresh fish at 12:34 AM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]
I realize that for many the distinction lies between "harassment" and "hatred" or "hate speech."
I see expressions of blatant racism, homophobia, etc as a form of harassment on par with directly threatening someone but diffused over a larger number of people, essentially warning everyone that they don't belong here, wherever that may be. There's a continuum where it perhaps becomes more subtle or is more automatic and ingrained and "simply" insensitive, but it's basically bullying, which is like small-scale terrorism -- always easy for the bully to say "I'm just kidding / this is just how I talk / I tell it like it is, just breakin' your balls," etc, but directly put out there to provoke discomfort or fear, or at minimum, hostile inhospitality in a community of otherwise equal individuals.
Hate speech draws clear lines of separation that in many cases were never intended by the creators of a community. The dilemma is that so many hateful people exist in more general communities that were not intended to terrorize a segment of their membership rather than entirely subsisting on hate-based or hate-encouraging communities. And those hate communities have a tendency of spilling over and attacking people in other communities for their personal self-aggrandizement.
The aggregate of people who govern and finance the existence of the community on a resource like MeFi or Reddit or Twitter have the right to demand a community that abides by their values of individual diversity, just like the people who run GodHatesFags.com have the right to delete every "pro-gay" comment. The difference is ostensibly that communities like Reddit, MeFi, and Twitter did not specifically set out to intimidate or disrespect people due to their skin color, religion, and that these communities represent the greater society's desire for increasing tolerance and acceptance of previously-maligned "identity groups" AKA "people who got a slightly but sufficiently different-from-me hand dealt to them in life," and they benefit from having a large membership of people, most of whom do not wish to be attacked but put up with it due to other perceived benefits.
I can see where some would see a clear distinction between threats or direct harassment of an individual or a specific group, vs. hate speech, any many folks consistently put "hate speech" in "scare quotes" and portray it as this undefinable entity. I'm reinforcing where I stand by adding "[harassment of] ... a specific group" to the sentence above on the left side of the "vs." instead of the right. I've been exposed to directly or bore witness to various forms of hate speech -- typically racism, homophobia, sexism, and it's always been clear to me how uncomfortable and unsafe such expressions are intended to make people feel when you're physically there in the moment. So again I want that Internet-equivalent-to-meatspace-reality-response, where Twitter doesn't tolerate virulent hatred and acts as if you are directly assaulting Twitter if you insist on creating accounts repeatedly.
posted by aydeejones at 12:39 AM on June 24, 2015
I see expressions of blatant racism, homophobia, etc as a form of harassment on par with directly threatening someone but diffused over a larger number of people, essentially warning everyone that they don't belong here, wherever that may be. There's a continuum where it perhaps becomes more subtle or is more automatic and ingrained and "simply" insensitive, but it's basically bullying, which is like small-scale terrorism -- always easy for the bully to say "I'm just kidding / this is just how I talk / I tell it like it is, just breakin' your balls," etc, but directly put out there to provoke discomfort or fear, or at minimum, hostile inhospitality in a community of otherwise equal individuals.
Hate speech draws clear lines of separation that in many cases were never intended by the creators of a community. The dilemma is that so many hateful people exist in more general communities that were not intended to terrorize a segment of their membership rather than entirely subsisting on hate-based or hate-encouraging communities. And those hate communities have a tendency of spilling over and attacking people in other communities for their personal self-aggrandizement.
The aggregate of people who govern and finance the existence of the community on a resource like MeFi or Reddit or Twitter have the right to demand a community that abides by their values of individual diversity, just like the people who run GodHatesFags.com have the right to delete every "pro-gay" comment. The difference is ostensibly that communities like Reddit, MeFi, and Twitter did not specifically set out to intimidate or disrespect people due to their skin color, religion, and that these communities represent the greater society's desire for increasing tolerance and acceptance of previously-maligned "identity groups" AKA "people who got a slightly but sufficiently different-from-me hand dealt to them in life," and they benefit from having a large membership of people, most of whom do not wish to be attacked but put up with it due to other perceived benefits.
I can see where some would see a clear distinction between threats or direct harassment of an individual or a specific group, vs. hate speech, any many folks consistently put "hate speech" in "scare quotes" and portray it as this undefinable entity. I'm reinforcing where I stand by adding "[harassment of] ... a specific group" to the sentence above on the left side of the "vs." instead of the right. I've been exposed to directly or bore witness to various forms of hate speech -- typically racism, homophobia, sexism, and it's always been clear to me how uncomfortable and unsafe such expressions are intended to make people feel when you're physically there in the moment. So again I want that Internet-equivalent-to-meatspace-reality-response, where Twitter doesn't tolerate virulent hatred and acts as if you are directly assaulting Twitter if you insist on creating accounts repeatedly.
posted by aydeejones at 12:39 AM on June 24, 2015
The best thing about the internet is that it allows people with fringe interests to form groups and legitimize each other.
The worst thing about the internet is that it allows people with fringe interests to form groups and legitimize each other.
Also, I've asked this before, but at this point isn't Reddit just a big for-profit corporation that avoids proper moderation because they're cheapskates? Or are they really some kind of magic free speech crusaders? I have my doubts.
posted by freecellwizard at 7:18 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
The worst thing about the internet is that it allows people with fringe interests to form groups and legitimize each other.
Also, I've asked this before, but at this point isn't Reddit just a big for-profit corporation that avoids proper moderation because they're cheapskates? Or are they really some kind of magic free speech crusaders? I have my doubts.
posted by freecellwizard at 7:18 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]
See: /r/askHistorians
Every other thread on the front page in their comments will have threads of discussion deleted because it's not up to par.
AskHistorians has the luxury of being an Ask* style subreddit, wherein there really is focus the comments need to address. Similar to AskMe, comments need to at least try to answer the question. The other factor though (and what really brings out the Remove Hammer, is that all comments are expected to be "comprehensive and informative," so half-remembered factoids for a documentary you saw once (but don't remember the name) or a quick link to Wikipedia don't cut it. The ethos is it is better to have no answers than a poor one.
Given the way Reddit functions though, a new post can quickly garner upvotes and hit the frontpage within a couple hours. Usually this is because it hits some sort of popular or general interest topic. The following then happens:
- New post hits front page quickly
- Redditors see question they think they know something about, add their 2 cents
- AskHistorians standard is more than 2 cents, comments are removed
- By the time the post has been on the frontpage for a few hours, Redditors start to notice deleted comment chains and "vanished" comments
(Sidebar: removing Reddit comments only leaves a [deleted] placeholder if the removed comment has a response, otherwise it just vanishes. The total number of comments is still tracked however.)
- Because Redditors think they are clever and funny, the post starts to attract comments like "[deleted]," "tumbleweeds.gif," and (my favorite), "what happened here?"
- A mod note is posted reminding everyone of the standards for answers
- Mod note attracts praise and/or condemnation; someone invariably says "i didnt realize what sub i was in"
- Someone with relevant knowledge and appropriate effort finally comes along, the conversation can then actually begin
The post, Why do modern American generals seem to have more awards and decorations than their predecessors in WWII? I'm thinking specifically of Eisenhower, Bradley, Marshall et al compared to Petraeus and the current joint chiefs with all those patches and tabs is a good recent example of this.
Anyways, the point is that how Reddit functions encourages quick and easy answers to things. The fact that posts jump onto and slip off the frontpage in less than a day means that if you are commenting on a post that is more than a day old, the chances are very high that you are talking to an empty room. As much as Redditors love to slag Buzzfeed or Tumblr (or 9gag) for being shallow content churners, Reddit isn't much different.
In AskHistorians, this manifests by users expecting that a question about something relatively obscure like Carthaginian cuisine will have an immediate answer, and will openly complain if someone with the relevant knowledge doesn't show up in the brief time the post is on the frontpage. In the defaults, this manifests by the fact that early comments on a post have the advantage of getting the most views in the short time a post is "active," hence the reason that the top comment on every post on the frontpage tends to be the joke you were expecting to see.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:54 AM on June 24, 2015
Every other thread on the front page in their comments will have threads of discussion deleted because it's not up to par.
AskHistorians has the luxury of being an Ask* style subreddit, wherein there really is focus the comments need to address. Similar to AskMe, comments need to at least try to answer the question. The other factor though (and what really brings out the Remove Hammer, is that all comments are expected to be "comprehensive and informative," so half-remembered factoids for a documentary you saw once (but don't remember the name) or a quick link to Wikipedia don't cut it. The ethos is it is better to have no answers than a poor one.
Given the way Reddit functions though, a new post can quickly garner upvotes and hit the frontpage within a couple hours. Usually this is because it hits some sort of popular or general interest topic. The following then happens:
- New post hits front page quickly
- Redditors see question they think they know something about, add their 2 cents
- AskHistorians standard is more than 2 cents, comments are removed
- By the time the post has been on the frontpage for a few hours, Redditors start to notice deleted comment chains and "vanished" comments
(Sidebar: removing Reddit comments only leaves a [deleted] placeholder if the removed comment has a response, otherwise it just vanishes. The total number of comments is still tracked however.)
- Because Redditors think they are clever and funny, the post starts to attract comments like "[deleted]," "tumbleweeds.gif," and (my favorite), "what happened here?"
- A mod note is posted reminding everyone of the standards for answers
- Mod note attracts praise and/or condemnation; someone invariably says "i didnt realize what sub i was in"
- Someone with relevant knowledge and appropriate effort finally comes along, the conversation can then actually begin
The post, Why do modern American generals seem to have more awards and decorations than their predecessors in WWII? I'm thinking specifically of Eisenhower, Bradley, Marshall et al compared to Petraeus and the current joint chiefs with all those patches and tabs is a good recent example of this.
Anyways, the point is that how Reddit functions encourages quick and easy answers to things. The fact that posts jump onto and slip off the frontpage in less than a day means that if you are commenting on a post that is more than a day old, the chances are very high that you are talking to an empty room. As much as Redditors love to slag Buzzfeed or Tumblr (or 9gag) for being shallow content churners, Reddit isn't much different.
In AskHistorians, this manifests by users expecting that a question about something relatively obscure like Carthaginian cuisine will have an immediate answer, and will openly complain if someone with the relevant knowledge doesn't show up in the brief time the post is on the frontpage. In the defaults, this manifests by the fact that early comments on a post have the advantage of getting the most views in the short time a post is "active," hence the reason that the top comment on every post on the frontpage tends to be the joke you were expecting to see.
posted by Panjandrum at 7:54 AM on June 24, 2015
Depends on what you think of as big, but Reddit has less than 100 employees, and was still unprofitable as of last year. As a private company they're not required to publicly report earnings, but I doubt they're profitable.
Just like Uber simultaneously provides a service to its customers while selling us all into indentured servitude, they can champion free speech while at the same time taking advantage of the fact that not having to paying someone to censor comments is cheaper for them.
There are more than a couple subreddits attacking and insulting their CEO, and calling for her resignation in the wake of Reddit enforcing their own longstanding rules about doxxing which puts them in the free speech camp for me. We're no longer in the mid-20th century and the Hays code is no longer relevant. Reddit's code is (somewhat) open source, and doesn't require you to hire your own actors, cameramen, editors, gaffers, grips, along with your own nationwide chain of movie theaters in order to break the Hays code. It starts at $5/month, and only goes up as your version gets popular, so I'm absolutely fine with my position that Reddit needs to do more to stop promoting racism because, well, it's $5.
As much as I like Metafilter, it's foolish to hold us up as any sort of standard, given our linear commenting system and lack of volume. At the end of the day, I believe linear commenting is better, but as we've seen on our very most active threads, it quickly becomes useless for a conversation. Our existing moderation system also won't scale either - the problem is when a single thread becomes very popular, very quickly, and comments start being written and replied to faster than any single moderator could possibly read.
Congrats on 10 years, Reddit!
posted by fragmede at 8:41 AM on June 24, 2015
Just like Uber simultaneously provides a service to its customers while selling us all into indentured servitude, they can champion free speech while at the same time taking advantage of the fact that not having to paying someone to censor comments is cheaper for them.
There are more than a couple subreddits attacking and insulting their CEO, and calling for her resignation in the wake of Reddit enforcing their own longstanding rules about doxxing which puts them in the free speech camp for me. We're no longer in the mid-20th century and the Hays code is no longer relevant. Reddit's code is (somewhat) open source, and doesn't require you to hire your own actors, cameramen, editors, gaffers, grips, along with your own nationwide chain of movie theaters in order to break the Hays code. It starts at $5/month, and only goes up as your version gets popular, so I'm absolutely fine with my position that Reddit needs to do more to stop promoting racism because, well, it's $5.
As much as I like Metafilter, it's foolish to hold us up as any sort of standard, given our linear commenting system and lack of volume. At the end of the day, I believe linear commenting is better, but as we've seen on our very most active threads, it quickly becomes useless for a conversation. Our existing moderation system also won't scale either - the problem is when a single thread becomes very popular, very quickly, and comments start being written and replied to faster than any single moderator could possibly read.
Congrats on 10 years, Reddit!
posted by fragmede at 8:41 AM on June 24, 2015
Reddit is proof that libertarianism results in some okay parts amid a horrible nasty mess.
posted by theora55 at 9:24 AM on June 24, 2015
posted by theora55 at 9:24 AM on June 24, 2015
This is the typical thing that I look for & find on reddit all the time (SFW)
posted by growabrain at 9:54 AM on June 24, 2015
posted by growabrain at 9:54 AM on June 24, 2015
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posted by mmoncur at 12:04 PM on June 23, 2015 [6 favorites]